Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Well may 50 million masons can keep a secret, but from what I know of the trip to the moon, we were there. Why did the program suddenly stop? Well, first the big night or day we landed on the moon, some may be old enough to recall the Bridge at Chappadwick, where Senator Edward M. Kennedy nearly lost his life and a friend with him died in the water. Prior to this accident Ted Kennedy had been seen as potential presidential material, something he really did not want. After the deaths of his two brothers, he developed a drinking problem and without a doubt was demoralized to a point where he underwent a very long period of depression. So what happened? Huberg Horatio Humphrey got the nomination, and lost. And when he lost, many friends I had withe the space program who had gone to California in particular making excellent money, $70 to $80 thousand per year, engineers all - returned back to their homes without jobs. The Republicans decided to concentrate on what, I do not know - Watergate was the end result and the country really started to take from that one big step for mankind, to slip sliding away and one big back step and side step into what we now call, the NWO. North American was the first to feel the real job losses. I knew one engineer who ended up driving a city bus, and he drove like a "bat out of hell" but everybody loved him because the trip home was so fast. Another hot shot with an ego the size of Kng Kong returned, and ended up near skid row, until he finally got into a State position, at half his former salary. These were all men who worked on the big projects. Civil Rights (black) wanted the money spend on people and not on trips into space. John F. Kennedy had made good his pledge to get to the moon and first, and did. So suddenly than began closing of big Air Force Bases across the country until as of late we have a Commander in Chief named Clinton, whom some believe is a draft dodger who played in Oxford and Moscow, waiting to be elected as a JFK look-alike and trained all the way., My guess would be that guy had some connections to the Red Chinese. Today we are told the 21st century will be horrifichot, drought, which is about the biggest line of crap this country was ever sold. We have our Russian friends into MIR and weather control, and we are told a lot of rain for the south west, which means Mexica. The UN Resolution 1732 (think that was it, have not seen it but onlly by documented reference) calls for "sharing of the weather". A lot also put out on the web on this, a man by the name of Beardon is most often mentioned, USAF Colonel at Huntsville, Alabama, home of Red Stone where von Braun worked to assist us to the moon. Old story in the 60 period was "our Germa scientists are smarter than your German scientists (referring to the portion Russia got, but we got von Braun). So check out the sabotage into the space program; strange, no sabotage in Russia. In fact England, our cherished allies, laughted at the USA when our first attempt to get to the moon went 30 feet or so, and blew up. England cried Oh What A Flopik..for Russia had the Sputnik. Idea to get to the moon? Colonization and new frontiersfuture Adam and Eves venturing into places where nobody has gone before, only this time maybe not as well equipped. Remember when you read Genesis, God said we will make man in OUR image. Note, it takes two to tango, and there maybe was a Mrs. God. So, did Mr. and Mrs. God produce children, Adam and Eve? Our image. We will live so happily - a girl for you, and a boy for me - and don't sit to long under them apple trees? During WWII, two songs are recorded one of which was Don' t Sit Under the Apple Tree With Anyone Else But Me, and the other In the Cool, Cool, Cool of the Eveningand God used to walk in the Cool Cool of the Evening, but I always wondered who his shoemaker was. If you read Genesis you find the secret of all creation. You find the Sun to rule by day and the moon by night and further into the bible the Dial of AhazTurn Back The Hands of Time, and even the Sun Stood Still, but if it did we had to go out of orbit. So someday a new administration, will get our feet out of the mud, and we will again look to the stars where I believe the future generations will find a place like C. Gordon Liddy called, East of he Sun, and West of the Moon, and boy I wish I would be here for that trip. If I had my life to live over, I would have loved to have lived in a monastery full of books, for somewhere I believe in the Vatican Library alone, you will find the very secret of life itself.'' But always remember Genesis when God said lets make man in OUR image. So, all you male chauvenists...there was a Mrs. God, for he made an Adam and and Eve (and not Steve, Dr. Poly). At least this is what I think. If we reall go further into deep space and discover the secrets of life, think a lot of churches would go underground, and Pat
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Aleisha Saba" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Today we are told the 21st century will be horrifichot, drought, which is about the biggest line of crap this country was ever sold. We have our Russian friends into MIR and weather control, and we are told a lot of rain for the south west, which means Mexica. Not just the Russians. Remember, 'we' have HAARP. And 'southwest' also means Arizona, New Mexico, southern Texas and southern California... Idea to get to the moon? Colonization and new frontiersfuture Adam and Eves venturing into places where nobody has gone before, only this time maybe not as well equipped. The whole idea of sending a man to the moon was fueled by the Cold War... as soon as we knew the Russians had space capability, it became a prestige thing that the U.S. get to the moon before the Russians...it was bad enough that the Russkies beat us to the upper limits of Earth's atmosphere with their satellites, and beat us by launching the first successful astronaut, we weren't about to let them plant the red hammer-and-sickle flag on the moon before we could plant the stars-and-stripes... But by the early 1970s, times -- and the economy -- had changed drastically. The ultra-patriotism of the early 1960s was replaced with verulant anti- government protests from one side, and total apathy from the other. As you pointed out, the slump in the economy led to drastic layoffs in the aerospace industries. The price of oil skyrocketed. Wages were frozen. It was very hard for NASA and Congress to justify the expenditures necessary to continue the lunar space program; the focus changed to building a permanent orbiting space station (which ended up not very permanent) and a reusable spacecraft. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
From: "Robert F. Tatman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Two possibilities occur to me off the top of my head: first, the ultraterrestrials are constantly need fresh genetic material. Folklore is consistent around the globe that they are extremely long-lived, and long-lived species usually have low rates of reproduction--hence the need for "breeders.". The second notion, which just occurred to me, is that the ultraterrestrials might actually be symbiotic with humans...that is, human genetic material, sperm, ova, what-have-you, is a physical requirement for them to reproduce. Think of the legends of incubi and succubi, who "ravish" unwary humans in their sleep... Or perhaps it's not so much a need for fresh genetic material, but a desire, for whatever reason, to introduce their own genetic material into human DNA... June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED] If there are these creatures as you posit, then why is it that they have to have an agenda? It may be that there interaction with us is coincidental, or accidental, or that the times that they actually DO things to us or with us it is the action of BAD members of that race who are trying to get ahead in the world, much like humans exploit other humans. It could be cultural, or ritual as well. Maybe we are the subject of mythology in their culture, and they are merely trying to study us? That doesn't explain why for at least decades -- and possibly much longer -- they've been abducting human beings, and especially their inordinate interest in our genitalia and reproductive systems. One would think that they would have found out whatever they needed to long ago -- especially since they DO display seemingly advanced technology. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/7/00 7:24:50 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So it wouldn't be that divinity is magically bestowed, but that to be free to roam the universe, a civilization would have to achieve a certain level of enlightenment first in order that harm might not spread. I must admit that your idea has a certain something to it that makes me wonder, but then again it is just a theory you have. There really is no justification for the idea, though it would be great if we could be assured that only good and kind moral beings would come to us. True, 'tis just a theory. But I have a question: why haven't we continued to send manned craft to the moon? It's not as if we've exhausted all exploring options. Why did we cease? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
In a message dated 6/8/00 6:49:29 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That doesn't explain why for at least decades -- and possibly much longer -- they've been abducting human beings, and especially their inordinate interest in our genitalia and reproductive systems. One would think that they would have found out whatever they needed to long ago -- especially since they DO display seemingly advanced technology. June June actually wrote the above?:-) Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
The issue of moon exploration is fraught with all kinds of conspiracy theories. Of course NASA might be right and there just was not enough funding or interest to maintain the program. It could also be that there is something there which discourages our continued exploration, be it the "Alternative 3" scientific moonbases, the supposes Nazi bases, or aliens from elsewhere. Then again maybe we didn't go to the moon at all, ever. I think it was a number of things which have limited further exploration, including the idea that there was little interest to fuel more money for the program, BUT I will say this, it seems to me that there has been a suppression of positive societal influence on space exploration in general. It seems to me that military types are against the proliferation of space flight and more exploration because it infringes upon an area they have effective control over and would endanger secret operations and programs they are running. On Thu, 08 June 2000, "Samantha L." wrote: In a message dated 6/7/00 7:24:50 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So it wouldn't be that divinity is magically bestowed, but that to be free to roam the universe, a civilization would have to achieve a certain level of enlightenment first in order that harm might not spread. I must admit that your idea has a certain something to it that makes me wonder, but then again it is just a theory you have. There really is no justification for the idea, though it would be great if we could be assured that only good and kind moral beings would come to us. True, 'tis just a theory. But I have a question: why haven't we continued to send manned craft to the moon? It's not as if we've exhausted all exploring options. Why did we cease? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
I'm not sure what is meant by the term ULTRA-terrestrial in this sense. I have no qualms at all about accepting that it is POSSIBLE that there are beings, that are normally incorpreal to us, and cannot be sensed under normal circumstances, who occupy other dimensions which are physically coterminus with the space we occupy now. As such I believe it is possible that there are extradimensional beings. As for where they would come from; they could be the product of their own evolutionary path, and perhaps the space they occupy in their dimension is unique in ways that ours is that allowed life to develop there as well. They could be spiritual, or more evolved beings who have voluntarily removed themselves from our dimension ( or have been involuntarily removed to a prison dimension by more powerful forces or beings). Sometimes under certain conditions they may be percieved or interact with us. Or they may have technology, or we may have technology that can open gateways between the dimensions which would allow interaction of various kinds. This is all speculation mind you. What their purpose is, I cannot say except it would certainly help to know their exact nature before one could postulate what it is they are doing and their motivation for doing it. I would like to hear a better definition of the ULTRA in ultraterrestrial before speculating further on that term though. On Tue, 06 June 2000, nessie wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: More to come! Yeah. Let's kick this one around for a while. But let's keep speculation and facts seperate and labeled. Let's also keep in mind that there needs be no exclusionary hypothesis. There could be military intelligence behind some abductions and ETs behind others (a la "Jose Chung") and yet more could be the work of the "Ultraterrestrials." So, if there ARE "ultraterrestrials," where could they could have come from? How far must we revise our concept of physics to account for their reported activities? What might their plans and motives be? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
See my comments inserted below. On Tue, 06 June 2000, "Samantha L." wrote: In a message dated 6/6/00 7:35:15 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What makes me believe there are genuine ET contacts occurring (with or without black op intrusion as well) is the remarkable spiritual awakenings so many are having. As subjective is this is, I just don't believe that evil intentions can awaken deep spiritual truths. But that has no bearing on whether these entities are physical beings from another planet. Huh? First, I said extra-terrestrial/extra-dimensional. If not ED or ET then the alternative would be that covert military ops are undertaking disinformation campaigns which have the purpose or the side-effect of causing spiritual awakening. That would be rather like my dog preparing a a fine gourmet meal. What an intriguing idea. See my earlier post for a comment on this particular question. Why do you presume that physical beings from another planet would be 'good' in the moral sense? Why would ETs magically be able to 'awaken deep spiritual truths'? Does coming from another planet magically bestow divinity? I personally believe that yes, beings from elsewhere in the universe visiting here would be, by definition, moral and enlightened beings - that there is a fail-safe-clause in the ordered universe that allows only beings of a certain spiritual level to achieve certain technologies. If one thinks of imagination as having a direct correlation to inventiveness, then this is not so far-fetched. There are pathways of thinking in the creative sense which are closed to darker minds. There simply is not the access to a great expanse of ideas in psychologically unhealthy and repressed beings. Or that lesser beings, of a barbaric nature, might achieve some technologies but be prevented from using them outside their zone. I postulate that this is indeed an organized universe with rules, regulations and heirarchies, and no, I have no evidence for such.. So it wouldn't be that divinity is magically bestowed, but that to be free to roam the universe, a civilization would have to achieve a certain level of enlightenment first in order that harm might not spread. I must admit that your idea has a certain something to it that makes me wonder, but then again it is just a theory you have. There really is no justification for the idea, though it would be great if we could be assured that only good and kind moral beings would come to us. If 'contact' is occurring, it could just as likely be with extra-dimensional beings that have been here all along, and aren't from outerspace. And these beings could just as easily be 'evil', and conning the easily duped into believing that they are 'good' If they are extra-dimensional, how logical is it to postulate that they may have been here all along, when we don't even understand the nature of extra-dimensions? Where is the "here" in the "extra-dimensional beings that have been here all along? Cleveland? They could be evil, duping people into believing in their goodness. They could be evil and accidentally causing spiritual awakening. I don't think it's very likely. Is there some evidence for the presumption that if extra-dimensional beings exist that they are all evil? Nothing says they all have to be evil, but nothing says they all have to be good either. If there are beings of an extradimensional nature around there is no reason to presume that they haven't been here for a long time, at least as long as we have. As for "where are they", they could be all around you and even occupying the same space as you do, only non-percievable (except under certain circumstances perhaps), and non-experiential (at least normally), because they occupy a different dimensional realm within the same space as we occupy in our "third" dimensional realm. It would be more plausible to presume that such entities if they exist, are in fact neutral or indifferent to us in a moral sense, and any interaction they have would be for their own interests and they would be oblivious to us or our desires, fears, etc., rather than that they are moral in any sense that we understand, whether good or evil. That seems logical to me, but hey, that's just me. There is a difference in depth between an mc experience and a spiritual one - the flavors and tones are distinct - though sometimes off only by a few degrees. This is a subjective analysis, and is not evidence. Well wonders never cease. You figured that out all by yourself? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths,
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: What does it show us? That the spiritual side can be manipulated, and in fact may be one of several purposes for why the abduction phenomenon is carried out in the first place On the other hand, it is not at all uncommon for people who have been througha psychologically traumatic experience to process it as a life changing event. I myself had a a couple near death experiences at an impressionable age and I'm a totally different person today than I would have been had they not happened. It didn't make me spiritual, but it sure did make me philosophical. Get shot, crash a bike, survive cancer, watch a friend die, lose your house to fire, get married, get divorced, have a kid, get arrested. Any of these things have the potential to turn a person spiritual. I've seen it happen. I dare say that if I honestly thought I'd been abducted by aliens I'd be a different guy later no matter what actually happened in real life. So would you. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
tenebroust, I've always believed several layers of things are going on at once. I really haven't modulated my position at all. I am personally convinced there is something extra-dimensional and/or extra-terrestrial going on, and that the military is pulling tricks out of their hat as well. But why I'm convinced of these things is purely subjective. I do agree we should look at the mundane sources as well as the alternatives. As for attempts at spiritual manipulation, I can see it as it pertains to the UFO phenomenon as well as to other phenomenon like channeling, remote viewing, psychic phenomenon and pseudo-religious phenomenon. I think there are ways of distinguishing the genuine from the pseudo, but these ways are purely subjective and not prone to evidence. As for Strieber, I've long perceived there was more to his experiences than ED or ET. I believe he is subjected to both ED/ET and MILAB simulataeously. It will be interesting to see what he ends up believing when he sorts through his disturbing new memories. I give him a lot of credit for being open about the very memories that would seem to discredit his previous subjective conclusions (though admittedly he's always only specualted on the nature of experiences.) Samantha In a message dated 6/6/00 10:37:16 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Samantha, I am glad to see that you have modulated your position as previously presented here, and allow for alternative explanations. It is also good that you question Streiber et al, because there is some question as to Streiber's affiliations etc. These experiences could be real, or not, as regards REAL aliens. BUT it is aknowledged by most people, here at least, that the military DOES DO such things. SO, it would behoove us to look at the known first before we go off in search of less mundane sources for these events. Would you agree? As to your spiritual comments as circumstantial validity for TRUE alien encounters I would direct you to look at the case that Vallee investigated, involving a Frenchman supposedly abducted by aliens and missing for days. Sources in the French military told him it was a fake abduction run by their military in order to study psychological and psychosocial phenomenon. It was bogus. Now, as it relates to this spiritual validity, one of the things the French were desirous to look into was the formation of cults around supposed alien spiritual enlightenment. One of the people who knew the abducted person later went on to start a cult based upon what was told him by the abducted about the spiritual message of the "aliens". This was all bogus. What does it show us? That the spiritual side can be manipulated, and in fact may be one of several purposes for why the abduction phenomenon is carried out in the first place. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
OK, I could have called them "infraterrestrials" or "metaterrestrials" instead of "ultraterrestrials." All that I meant by using "ultraterrestrial" was that they would be just as much products of Earthly evolution as are human beings. However, I've seen the term "ultraterrestrial" used to refer to a physical race of intelligent entities who, like humans, evolved on Earth, but in a radically different direction. Just what that direction was, remains to be seen. My guess here is that they are essentially the same as the "fairies" (goblins, Heinzelmännchen, fée, etc.) found in every culture on the planet. Sometimes they're worshipped as gods, ancestors, or both; sometimes feared as demons, incubi, succubi; sometimes, as in the Celtic countries, just plain *lived* with and accepted. The one most significant difference between "them" and "us" is that they are able to project an image of themselves that "casts a glamour" on human beings--that makes us see them as deities, or monsters, or space aliens, or UFOs, or superheroes, whatever is most appropriate to the moment. As to *why* they do this...ah, that is another question entirely. - Original Message - From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:) I'm not sure what is meant by the term ULTRA-terrestrial in this sense. snip A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: sometimes, as in the Celtic countries, just plain *lived* with and accepted. Clearly the most sensible approach. Just because somebody is different, that doesn't make them better or worse. Just because somebody has a power we don't have, that doesn't make them our superiors. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Oh, so using that logic, western society is more moral than South
Pacific tribes, because western society developed the A-bomb and the
Pacific islanders did not...therefore, we were morally justified in
forceably evicting the residents of the Bikini atolls from their
centuries-old home so that we could use it for our nuclear tests...
Were the developers of Iron Age tools morally superior to their Stone
Age ancestors? Were their Bronze Age decendents then morally superior
to themselves?
It was terribly obvious what I meant about technology.
Yes, 'terribly' is the key word here.
You stated that only beings that had attained a certain high calibre of
morality would be 'allowed' ('allowed' by whom, I wonder) to attain
higher levels of technology.
Basically saying that if residents of another planet have attained the
technological means to travel here, then for some reason they must be of
a higher moral calibre than we are...
Using that logic then implies that western culture is more 'moral' than
cultures which haven't attained the level of technology that we have,
that we have been 'allowed' to attain more technology than them because
God is on our side
That was the argument the European explorers used to conquer and enslave
native peoples around the worldand was the justification Europe and
the U.S. used in the last century to justify their colonial policies.
After all, white culture was "Christian" culture, giving whites the moral
justification to subjugate other races who just happen to worship another
way. Christian missionaries argued that they brought about a 'spiritual
awakening' in all the people they converted, too...
Either you're not wired-up to understand plain English
Oh, I understand the implied racism in your statement very well...
or you're deliberately saying
off-the-wall things for whatever reasons of your own (hey, I'm quick).
No, I'm just explaining what your philosophy really means, because it's
obvious you have never thought out the full implications of it. Or perhaps
you have...
I'm sure that you'll retort that I never shared anything of substance to
begin with, so let me just save you one of your 7 per day posts/email address
and let the insult just hang there for you.
We've already covered this. You admitted that this is your personal opinion,
which is fine. I have no problem with personal opinion presented as such. My
objection is with people like Nicky Molloy presenting personal opinion and
claiming it is FACT.
June
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CTRL
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Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
On the money. There seems to be an innate need on the part of our species, and the species closest to us, to *worship* forces we don't understand...and even forces we *do* understand or think we understand, such as the "market." Leaving aside legitimate theological considerations as not germane to either the list or the thread, I think it's safe to say that the ultra/infra/metaterrestrials are no less and no more "natural" than us hoomin beans. They are *there*, they exist, they have abilities we don't have. The image-projection ability I have postulated is a logical one, either for a predator or for prey. There is some evidence that the human telepathic ability was once much more common, especially among our hunting ancestors; I am convinced on the basis of personal observation that cats and dogs retain this ability. "Throwing a glamour" over one's prey is no less out of the question than is the idea of a duck hunter camouflaging his blind and using a duck call and decoys to attract his "victims." Now, next question: WHY do they want to attract and capture us, and why does time seem altered for those they have captured? - Original Message - From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:) [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: sometimes, as in the Celtic countries, just plain *lived* with and accepted. Clearly the most sensible approach. Just because somebody is different, that doesn't make them better or worse. Just because somebody has a power we don't have, that doesn't make them our superiors. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Clearly the most sensible approach. Just because somebody is different, that doesn't make them better or worse. Just because somebody has a power we don't have, that doesn't make them our superiors. The problem is, nowadays we have a movement afoot where these beings -- no better or worse than ourselves -- are now presented as being somehow morally and spiritually superior to ourselves solely because of their difference from us...and therefore warrant us giving up our individuality and sovereignty to these beings, because 'they know better'... June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
From: "Robert F. Tatman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now, next question: WHY do they want to attract and capture us, and why does time seem altered for those they have captured? Perhaps the time alteration is due to their interdimensionality...the 'space' they inhabit is doesn't intersect, or only intersects at one finite point, with our 'time-space continuum'... As to WHY they wish to attract and capture us...well, humanity has basically debated that question for millenia (if we accept that what humanity has in the past labeled 'angels', 'demons', 'faieries', 'devas', 'wee folk', etc. are now called 'aliens')... Why did faieries abduct humans in the past (if there is any basis to old folk tales?)? Why are angels and demons concerned with us? June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: The problem is, nowadays we have a movement afoot where these beings -- no better or worse than ourselves -- are now presented as being somehow morally and spiritually superior to ourselves solely because of their difference from us...and therefore warrant us giving up our individuality and sovereignty to these beings, because 'they know better'... I afraid that the powers that be are promoting a cargo cult mentality so that one day they can fake an alien landing and use it to manipulate us even further than they do already. If "ETs" land in front of the UN building and tell us they are here to save us from ourselves and we should do what their anointed human representitives say, when they head back up the ramp of their saucer be sure to check for a zipper up the back of their rubber suits. Even if they turn out to be real ETs, reflect back on the history of colonialism and ask yourself if ever, even once, a colonial power actually made things better for their victims. Hint: read up on the New World, Africa, South Asia, Australia and the Pacific. "Benelovent Space Brothers" !?! Gimme a break. If history is any indication whatsoever, they're either a total fraud perpetrated by our all too human masters or they're colonialist predators here to murder, rape and enslave us, herd our children onto reservations and steal all our resources. IMHO A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
Two possibilities occur to me off the top of my head: first, the ultraterrestrials are constantly need fresh genetic material. Folklore is consistent around the globe that they are extremely long-lived, and long-lived species usually have low rates of reproduction--hence the need for "breeders.". The second notion, which just occurred to me, is that the ultraterrestrials might actually be symbiotic with humans...that is, human genetic material, sperm, ova, what-have-you, is a physical requirement for them to reproduce. Think of the legends of incubi and succubi, who "ravish" unwary humans in their sleep... - Original Message - From: "Ynr Chyldz Wyld" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:) From: "Robert F. Tatman" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now, next question: WHY do they want to attract and capture us, and why does time seem altered for those they have captured? Perhaps the time alteration is due to their interdimensionality...the 'space' they inhabit is doesn't intersect, or only intersects at one finite point, with our 'time-space continuum'... As to WHY they wish to attract and capture us...well, humanity has basically debated that question for millenia (if we accept that what humanity has in the past labeled 'angels', 'demons', 'faieries', 'devas', 'wee folk', etc. are now called 'aliens')... Why did faieries abduct humans in the past (if there is any basis to old folk tales?)? Why are angels and demons concerned with us? June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
You are certainly right Nessie. Perhaps what is the motivation behind it would be personal TRANSFORMATION or at least to study the psychology of personal metamorphosis in a non-clinical, "real world" environment. Seeking to control how and why people make fundamental changes in their behavior and lives would be a fruitful area for black-ops, totalitarian police state thugs to look into, don't you think? On Tue, 06 June 2000, nessie wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: What does it show us? That the spiritual side can be manipulated, and in fact may be one of several purposes for why the abduction phenomenon is carried out in the first place On the other hand, it is not at all uncommon for people who have been througha psychologically traumatic experience to process it as a life changing event. I myself had a a couple near death experiences at an impressionable age and I'm a totally different person today than I would have been had they not happened. It didn't make me spiritual, but it sure did make me philosophical. Get shot, crash a bike, survive cancer, watch a friend die, lose your house to fire, get married, get divorced, have a kid, get arrested. Any of these things have the potential to turn a person spiritual. I've seen it happen. I dare say that if I honestly thought I'd been abducted by aliens I'd be a different guy later no matter what actually happened in real life. So would you. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
If there are these creatures as you posit, then why is it that they have to have an agenda? It may be that there interaction with us is coincidental, or accidental, or that the times that they actually DO things to us or with us it is the action of BAD members of that race who are trying to get ahead in the world, much like humans exploit other humans. It could be cultural, or ritual as well. Maybe we are the subject of mythology in their culture, and they are merely trying to study us? On Wed, 07 June 2000, "Robert F. Tatman" wrote: OK, I could have called them "infraterrestrials" or "metaterrestrials" instead of "ultraterrestrials." All that I meant by using "ultraterrestrial" was that they would be just as much products of Earthly evolution as are human beings. However, I've seen the term "ultraterrestrial" used to refer to a physical race of intelligent entities who, like humans, evolved on Earth, but in a radically different direction. Just what that direction was, remains to be seen. My guess here is that they are essentially the same as the "fairies" (goblins, Heinzelmännchen, fée, etc.) found in every culture on the planet. Sometimes they're worshipped as gods, ancestors, or both; sometimes feared as demons, incubi, succubi; sometimes, as in the Celtic countries, just plain *lived* with and accepted. The one most significant difference between "them" and "us" is that they are able to project an image of themselves that "casts a glamour" on human beings--that makes us see them as deities, or monsters, or space aliens, or UFOs, or superheroes, whatever is most appropriate to the moment. As to *why* they do this...ah, that is another question entirely. - Original Message - From: "tenebroust" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:) I'm not sure what is meant by the term ULTRA-terrestrial in this sense. snip A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/5/00 9:43:03 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. Their various accounts perhaps do point to contact with extraterrestial beings. But there could be other explanations as well, and we would be well served to constantly keep that in mind. What Strieber, Lucas, et al have experienced could perhaps be what manipulators behind the scenes WISH them to believe they experienced. Smoke and mirrors. Don't concentrate on the magic trick on stage, look for who's pulling the strings and pushing the buttons behind the curtain... And I am in agreement with you. It appears, especially in the case of Strieber, that if there are/were genuine ET contacts ocurring, they are/were being obscured by some type of military mind control experiences. Strieber, in his own words, is quite disturbed and perplexed by recent memories that bear this out. What makes me believe there are genuine ET contacts occurring (with or without black op intrusion as well) is the remarkable spiritual awakenings so many are having. As subjective is this is, I just don't believe that evil intentions can awaken deep spiritual truths. Mind you, I know that severe trauma can impel a spiritual path, but many of these alleged extra-dimensional/extra-terrestrials are seen by the experiencers themselves as the guiding forces behind the awakening. Strieber articulates this all so beautifully. Put simply, these asshole black operators just can't fake something at that depth because, by definition, they don't have a grasp of that depth to begin with. If they did, they would be prevented by that awareness from carrying on with their tasks. In addition to be moved by the sincerity of many of these accounts, as well as the internal consistency and the depth at which they are embedded in the consciousness of the experiencers, I don't give our government scientists credit enough to have created the crafts, the beams of light, etc., or even the technology to pretend that they have these things, even though I am aware that government technology is well in advance of what the public generally believes. I do believe that with another 30-50 years of development, the black-operators will have honed their "skills" to mimic such things more accurately. They will have also almost-perfected the mind control of children to a point where no genuine healing will ever have room to take place. But they're not there yet, and so we have a chance... There is a difference in depth between an mc experience and a spiritual one - the flavors and tones are distinct - though sometimes off only by a few degrees. And this is where, I believe, we must add intuition and common sense to our intellect in order to discern the subtleties involved. It's like Emerson said, "We know the truth when we see it, just as we know we are awake when we are awake." Admittedly, with all the mc technology available, the dividing lines are getting murkier, but they're not completely obscured yet, and we had damn well better make sure we stop these fiends before none of us can perceive the differences anymore. Strieber's rather tortured recent account is posted as a journal entry on his website: http://www.strieber.com/new-journal-03182000.html It doesn't appear as if he's sorted all of this out yet. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] What makes me believe there are genuine ET contacts occurring (with or without black op intrusion as well) is the remarkable spiritual awakenings so many are having. As subjective is this is, I just don't believe that evil intentions can awaken deep spiritual truths. But that has no bearing on whether these entities are physical beings from another planet. Why do you presume that physical beings from another planet would be 'good' in the moral sense? Why would ETs magically be able to 'awaken deep spiritual truths'? Does coming from another planet magically bestow divinity? If 'contact' is occurring, it could just as likely be with extra-dimensional beings that have been here all along, and aren't from outerspace. And these beings could just as easily be 'evil', and conning the easily duped into believing that they are 'good' There is a difference in depth between an mc experience and a spiritual one - the flavors and tones are distinct - though sometimes off only by a few degrees. This is a subjective analysis, and is not evidence. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
I agree with you on this Samantha, It is good to see someone using their sharp powers of analysis and knowledge gathered on this subject.. It is true I think that the US military do have a partnership with the specific aliens who are abducting for hybridization. However other aliens IMO are abducting people for communication purposes or to check the DNA etc. Perhaps giving warnings. Many reasons. Interviews of abductees can say a lot. http://209.145.38.129/shadiepines/paul.htm Paul's show is here. http://209.145.38.129/shadiepines/index.html http://area51.simplenet.com/ A lady from England was interviewed by Paul Williams on WBAI NY, UFO Desk a couple of days ago called Ann who was being abducted. I forgot her other name but if you wait for the archives it will prob be about the 2/3rd of June. Whatever the Monday date is in US. Our English members may find it interesting. Nicky Paul's show runs alternate Monday mornings at 1 am EST on WBAI New York Next show: Mar. 27, 2000 Guest: Dennis Lee, business man and owner of United Communities in Service to America - Part 2 Archived Interviews As well as a sound card and speakers, you will require RealPlayer to hear these interviews. Dr. Russel Targ Paul Williams interviews Dr. Russel Targ. Dr. Targ worked with Dr. Harold Putoff on early remote viewing experiments. Karl Pflock Paul Williams and Scott Carr interview UFO researcher and author, Karl Pflock Paul Williams Interviews Betty Hill This is an interview with Ms. Betty Hill. Ms. Hill and her husband Barney had an extraordinary experience in 1961. While driving home from a vacation in Canada, they encountered an craft from another world. Hear the story of her "Interrupted Journey". Spend a half-hour with a living legend and experience her common sense approach to UFOlogy. Co-hosted by Scott Carr. Paul Williams Interviews Montauk Abductee Here's a great story. Michelle believes that when she was a teen, she was kidnapped by people in military uniform, raped by an reptilian being, and then examined. All this takes place in a bunker at Montauk NY. Was she abducted by a military and who's? Hear her story, come to your own decision. Truly, one of the strangest stories on the net. Paul Williams Interviews Inspired ET Contactee Here's an interview with a most interesting and talented woman. Ms. Maria Cuccia housewife, mother, music teacher. A totally unassuming person, who prior to the early nineties had nothing to do with the UFO phemenona. Ms. Cuccia believes she's experienced contact with extra-terrestrials. Her story is quite extraordinary, and it is still ongoing. As result of her contact she has been producing some very beautiful music. Experience both her music and her story. More Audio Interviews by Paul Williams Abducted A one person performance, three men, two women, and an alien inhabit the body and mind of soldier. Listen as performance artist Micheal Belfiore, shares bits of this astounding performance. UFO Ballot This is a dialog w/Larry Bryant, of MUFON, Stephen Bassett, of Paradigm Research Group, and Larry Blecthmansp. We talk about the UFO ballot initiative that was to take place in Mo. Cosmic Test Tube Review and interview with author Randel Fitzgerald. Randal discusses his fasinating work about who we are and where we may from. Dr. David Jacobs Meet Dr. David Jacobs, author of "The Threat". We discuss this work as well how as how he reached his conclusions. Saber Research Talk with alien hunter Derrel Sims of Texas, director of Saber Research. Discussion on his research, part 1 -Original Message- From: Samantha L. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, 6 June 2000 20:46 Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: In a message dated 6/5/00 9:43:03 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. Their various accounts perhaps do point to contact with extraterrestial beings. But there could be other explanations as well, and we would be well served to constantly keep that in mind. What Strieber, Lucas, et al have experienced could perhaps be what manipulators behind the scenes WISH them to believe they experienced. Smoke and mirrors. Don't concentrate on the magic trick on stage, look for who's pulling the strings and pushing the buttons behind the curtain... And I am in agreement with you. It appears, especially in the case of Strieber, that if there are/were genuine ET contacts ocurring, they are/were being obscured by some type of military mind control experiences. Strieber, in his own words, is quite disturbed and perplexed by recent memories that bear this out. What makes me believe there are genuine ET contacts occurring (with or without black op intrusion as well) is the remarkable spiritual awakenings so many are having. As subjective is this is, I just don't believe that evil intentions can awaken deep spiritual truths. Mind you, I know that severe trauma c
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: I could tell you that I and untold others have been repeatedly abducted by motorcycle gangsor Arab terrorists...or Satanists... or leprechauns... Which brings up an interesting question. centuries old stories of being "Taken" by "Faeries" bear a startling resemblance to modern abduction stories, even missing time. What's up with that? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/6/00 7:35:15 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What makes me believe there are genuine ET contacts occurring (with or without black op intrusion as well) is the remarkable spiritual awakenings so many are having. As subjective is this is, I just don't believe that evil intentions can awaken deep spiritual truths. But that has no bearing on whether these entities are physical beings from another planet. Huh? First, I said extra-terrestrial/extra-dimensional. If not ED or ET then the alternative would be that covert military ops are undertaking disinformation campaigns which have the purpose or the side-effect of causing spiritual awakening. That would be rather like my dog preparing a a fine gourmet meal. What an intriguing idea. Why do you presume that physical beings from another planet would be 'good' in the moral sense? Why would ETs magically be able to 'awaken deep spiritual truths'? Does coming from another planet magically bestow divinity? I personally believe that yes, beings from elsewhere in the universe visiting here would be, by definition, moral and enlightened beings - that there is a fail-safe-clause in the ordered universe that allows only beings of a certain spiritual level to achieve certain technologies. If one thinks of imagination as having a direct correlation to inventiveness, then this is not so far-fetched. There are pathways of thinking in the creative sense which are closed to darker minds. There simply is not the access to a great expanse of ideas in psychologically unhealthy and repressed beings. Or that lesser beings, of a barbaric nature, might achieve some technologies but be prevented from using them outside their zone. I postulate that this is indeed an organized universe with rules, regulations and heirarchies, and no, I have no evidence for such.. So it wouldn't be that divinity is magically bestowed, but that to be free to roam the universe, a civilization would have to achieve a certain level of enlightenment first in order that harm might not spread. If 'contact' is occurring, it could just as likely be with extra-dimensional beings that have been here all along, and aren't from outerspace. And these beings could just as easily be 'evil', and conning the easily duped into believing that they are 'good' If they are extra-dimensional, how logical is it to postulate that they may have been here all along, when we don't even understand the nature of extra-dimensions? Where is the "here" in the "extra-dimensional beings that have been here all along? Cleveland? They could be evil, duping people into believing in their goodness. They could be evil and accidentally causing spiritual awakening. I don't think it's very likely. Is there some evidence for the presumption that if extra-dimensional beings exist that they are all evil? There is a difference in depth between an mc experience and a spiritual one - the flavors and tones are distinct - though sometimes off only by a few degrees. This is a subjective analysis, and is not evidence. Well wonders never cease. You figured that out all by yourself? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/5/00 9:11:28 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Prove that I did NOT have a torrid affair with Jacques Vallee, whose whispered pillowtalk to me revealed all the secrets of UFOs that he knew... not to mention some interesting gossip regarding Mr. Webre... Now I'm jealous! :-) Bill. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
Ah, NOW we come to the meat of the matter... There is an explanation which lies midway between aliens and MILABs, and it answers all of the questions surrounding UFOs, cattle mutilations, abductions, crop circles, the Bermuda Triangle, and who stole Joe Peabody's toupee? Quite simply and elegantly, the real culprits are *ultraterrestrials*, NOT extraterrestrials: namely, a race or races of beings who have existed alongside humanity since our anthropoid ancestors diverged from the chimpanzees and bonobos. They are capable of taking on human form, and often do live among us, indistinguishable from the boy or girl next door. There are numerous stories of how human babies are abducted and replaced by exact lookalikes...just ask yourselves the next time you look up from your family photo album and gaze at your teen-agers, "Where *did* my little (boy/girl) go? Where *did* this...*alien* come from, anyway?" The ultraterrestrials have even usurped roles of power and leadership among humans, using their highly-evolved powers of hypnosis and telepathic mind control to cloud the minds of their unknowing subjects... More to come! - Original Message - From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: I could tell you that I and untold others have been repeatedly abducted by motorcycle gangsor Arab terrorists...or Satanists... or leprechauns... Which brings up an interesting question. centuries old stories of being "Taken" by "Faeries" bear a startling resemblance to modern abduction stories, even missing time. What's up with that? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I could tell you that I and untold others have been repeatedly abducted by motorcycle gangsor Arab terrorists...or Satanists... or leprechauns... Which brings up an interesting question. centuries old stories of being "Taken" by "Faeries" bear a startling resemblance to modern abduction stories, even missing time. Yes, which was one of the reasons I chose the 'leprechaun' comparison. That is something the Jacques Vallee also points out...but I'm sure Mr. Webre will also take credit for that... ;-) June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is good to see someone using their sharp powers of analysis and knowledge gathered on this subject.. Then why don't we ever see YOU ever using 'sharp powers of analysis', instead of posting the personal opinions and wild speculations you try to pass off as 'evidence'? Paul Williams Interviews Betty Hill Interviews aren't evidence. This is an interview with Ms. Betty Hill. Ms. Hill and her husband Barney had an extraordinary experience in 1961. Mrs. Hill and her husband had what they later came to believe was an alien abduction. There is no EVIDENCE of this. All there is are their recounting of events, recorded on tape, while under hypnotic regression. If Betty and Barney Hill WERE abducted, they could as easily been abducted as part of a military mind control experiment, run solely by homo sapiens, with no outer space beings involved at all, except as the cover story. Here's a great story. Michelle believes that when she was a teen, she was kidnapped by people in military uniform, raped by an reptilian being, and then examined. "...believes that when she was a teen..." is not evidence...it is her admitted BELIEF of what happened. Ms. Cuccia believes she's experienced contact with extra-terrestrials. Again, we have a 'believer'. And again, no evidence. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Ultraterrestrials (Was: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:)
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: More to come! Yeah. Let's kick this one around for a while. But let's keep speculation and facts seperate and labeled. Let's also keep in mind that there needs be no exclusionary hypothesis. There could be military intelligence behind some abductions and ETs behind others (a la "Jose Chung") and yet more could be the work of the "Ultraterrestrials." So, if there ARE "ultraterrestrials," where could they could have come from? How far must we revise our concept of physics to account for their reported activities? What might their plans and motives be? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] I personally believe that yes, beings from elsewhere in the universe visiting here would be, by definition, moral and enlightened beings - that there is a fail-safe-clause in the ordered universe that allows only beings of a certain spiritual level to achieve certain technologies. Oh, so using that logic, western society is more moral than South Pacific tribes, because western society developed the A-bomb and the Pacific islanders did not...therefore, we were morally justified in forceably evicting the residents of the Bikini atolls from their centuries-old home so that we could use it for our nuclear tests... Were the developers of Iron Age tools morally superior to their Stone Age ancestors? Were their Bronze Age decendents then morally superior to themselves? What evidence do you have for this universal 'fail-safe-clause'? If one thinks of imagination as having a direct correlation to inventiveness, then this is not so far-fetched. Imagination does not need a moral compass. Some of the most inventive people were social and moral bastards. I postulate that this is indeed an organized universe with rules, regulations and heirarchies, and no, I have no evidence for such.. Fine, as long as it is clear that what you post is your own belief, and that you aren't trying to present it as 'the real truth'... And as you probably have figured out, I disagree with your assessment. So it wouldn't be that divinity is magically bestowed, but that to be free to roam the universe, a civilization would have to achieve a certain level of enlightenment first in order that harm might not spread. I don't particularly believe it. I feel that if there are beings on other planets, they are no better or no worse, in a moral sense, than we ourselves are. And just as Europeans spread untold disease and misery into the other continents they 'discovered' and conquered for their rulers -- sometimes wittingly, sometimes unwittingly -- so too I feel that if beings from other planets come here, they will be just as likely to do so for the same reasons human beings have gone exploring --whether for patriotism, to seek riches, or to spread 'the true religion'... If they are extra-dimensional, how logical is it to postulate that they may have been here all along, when we don't even understand the nature of extra-dimensions? Where is the "here" in the "extra- dimensional beings that have been here all along? Cleveland? They could be evil, duping people into believing in their goodness. They could be evil and accidentally causing spiritual awakening. You presume that what a person is undergoing is an 'awakening', when in fact they may be being conned...led to believe it is an 'awakening' when it is really nothing but psychic manipulation. Why do you think run-of-the-mill con artists are so successful? Because they don't go around advertising their ill-intent, rather they are quite skillful in making their mark believe they have the mark's best interest at heart. What we may have here is a psychic con game... I don't think it's very likely. Is there some evidence for the presumption that if extra-dimensional beings exist that they are all evil? "By their fruits you shall know them". What GOOD are these beings really accomplishing? Seems to me the message the 'good' ones always impart have to do with humanity giving up its individuality, and forming some variation of a 'new world order'. Sounds very fascist to me...and I use that term deliberately. June Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Two words: cargo cult A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/6/00 8:51:02 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, so using that logic, western society is more moral than South Pacific tribes, because western society developed the A-bomb and the Pacific islanders did not...therefore, we were morally justified in forceably evicting the residents of the Bikini atolls from their centuries-old home so that we could use it for our nuclear tests... Were the developers of Iron Age tools morally superior to their Stone Age ancestors? Were their Bronze Age decendents then morally superior to themselves? It was terribly obvious what I meant about technology. Either you're not wired-up to understand plain English or you're deliberately saying off-the-wall things for whatever reasons of your own (hey, I'm quick). Either way, I'm out of the realm of substance in continuing this discussion and on to only sharing personal opinions that I truly have not a shred of evidence for. I'm sure that you'll retort that I never shared anything of substance to begin with, so let me just save you one of your 7 per day posts/email address and let the insult just hang there for you. If I find anything that resembles compelling evidence, even of a circumstantial nature, I'll post it. Other than that I'm finished. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
nessie wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: I will posture another scenario the great Hoax of all time. How to achieve One World Government and total domination of the people by the New World Order? Easy: Create an Alien threat so dangerous that we are all glad to surrender our sovereignty we will be happy to surrender or Constitutional rights to combat the ET Menace. National sovereignty is in it's death throws. The WTO, the IMF, the WB, the OAS, the EU, the CIS, NATO and to a considerably lesser extent the UN, are quickly replacing it all over the world. Even China, supposed last bastion of autarchy, is scrambling as fast as it can to join the bleating flock. The era of national rule is ending. The era of corporate hegemony is upon us. Never happen. National rule can't be done away with. The best the corporate elites can hope for is a weak state with big armies and traitor politicians. This is pretty much what we have today. Joshua2 Those of us fortunate enough to live in countries where Constitutional rights actually exist, at least on paper, still cling to the quaint delusion that paper can stop bullets. But it isn't true. Paper can't even stop jackboots. It never could. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Samantha, I am glad to see that you have modulated your position as previously presented here, and allow for alternative explanations. It is also good that you question Streiber et al, because there is some question as to Streiber's affiliations etc. These experiences could be real, or not, as regards REAL aliens. BUT it is aknowledged by most people, here at least, that the military DOES DO such things. SO, it would behoove us to look at the known first before we go off in search of less mundane sources for these events. Would you agree? As to your spiritual comments as circumstantial validity for TRUE alien encounters I would direct you to look at the case that Vallee investigated, involving a Frenchman supposedly abducted by aliens and missing for days. Sources in the French military told him it was a fake abduction run by their military in order to study psychological and psychosocial phenomenon. It was bogus. Now, as it relates to this spiritual validity, one of the things the French were desirous to look into was the formation of cults around supposed alien spiritual enlightenment. One of the people who knew the abducted person later went on to start a cult based upon what was told him by the abducted about the spiritual message of the "aliens". This was all bogus. What does it show us? That the spiritual side can be manipulated, and in fact may be one of several purposes for why the abduction phenomenon is carried out in the first place. On Tue, 06 June 2000, "Samantha L." wrote: In a message dated 6/5/00 9:43:03 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Agreed. Their various accounts perhaps do point to contact with extraterrestial beings. But there could be other explanations as well, and we would be well served to constantly keep that in mind. What Strieber, Lucas, et al have experienced could perhaps be what manipulators behind the scenes WISH them to believe they experienced. Smoke and mirrors. Don't concentrate on the magic trick on stage, look for who's pulling the strings and pushing the buttons behind the curtain... And I am in agreement with you. It appears, especially in the case of Strieber, that if there are/were genuine ET contacts ocurring, they are/were being obscured by some type of military mind control experiences. Strieber, in his own words, is quite disturbed and perplexed by recent memories that bear this out. What makes me believe there are genuine ET contacts occurring (with or without black op intrusion as well) is the remarkable spiritual awakenings so many are having. As subjective is this is, I just don't believe that evil intentions can awaken deep spiritual truths. Mind you, I know that severe trauma can impel a spiritual path, but many of these alleged extra-dimensional/extra-terrestrials are seen by the experiencers themselves as the guiding forces behind the awakening. Strieber articulates this all so beautifully. Put simply, these asshole black operators just can't fake something at that depth because, by definition, they don't have a grasp of that depth to begin with. If they did, they would be prevented by that awareness from carrying on with their tasks. In addition to be moved by the sincerity of many of these accounts, as well as the internal consistency and the depth at which they are embedded in the consciousness of the experiencers, I don't give our government scientists credit enough to have created the crafts, the beams of light, etc., or even the technology to pretend that they have these things, even though I am aware that government technology is well in advance of what the public generally believes. I do believe that with another 30-50 years of development, the black-operators will have honed their "skills" to mimic such things more accurately. They will have also almost-perfected the mind control of children to a point where no genuine healing will ever have room to take place. But they're not there yet, and so we have a chance... There is a difference in depth between an mc experience and a spiritual one - the flavors and tones are distinct - though sometimes off only by a few degrees. And this is where, I believe, we must add intuition and common sense to our intellect in order to discern the subtleties involved. It's like Emerson said, "We know the truth when we see it, just as we know we are awake when we are awake." Admittedly, with all the mc technology available, the dividing lines are getting murkier, but they're not completely obscured yet, and we had damn well better make sure we stop these fiends before none of us can perceive the differences anymore. Strieber's rather tortured recent account is posted as a journal entry on his website: http://www.strieber.com/new-journal-03182000.html It doesn't appear as if he's sorted all of this out yet. Samantha A
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
-Original Message- From: tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Since there is no real evidence for it, we must just look at it all as speculation by "army officer X", or some "covert warrior" who now wants to come clean, etc. Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de plumes is because are in danger of their lives. I think anybody who just comes right out like fool with their name, rank and serial number and starts spouting off about the alien treaties the US govt has made with ets, really wouldn't have that much to say. They were intelligence officers and we don't really need to know their personal details. Other intelligence officers can know if they are speaking the truth or not and then it spreads from there.The information they present us with is generally self evident, because of a consistancy that others keep verifying, that they do have experience in inside covert operations. There are photos and documents in these books. Who are you? Why do you use a silly name? We don't know what country you are from, which gender, or how old you are, yet you want respect and to be listened to merely because your typed letters appear in our inboxes. Tell me why you personally don't give us your full name, address, ICQ number, CV, recent photo, race and blood type and birthdate. I'd like to know that before I even consider your comments on my post. You are looking for proof of someone's rank and their name before you believe them. Yet you are doing the same thing by hiding under a false name. Please - you don't even sign your posts!! So you want me to tell you, an indeterminate stranger going on public archives how I came by my info like a complete blabbermouth I'd have to be tortured to reveal it sorry. Please by all means keep us posted with the latest speculation in these areas, but let it reamin speculation and not the recitation of fact. OK but let me say you did get warned, but took too long looking for verifiable factual evidence to your satisfaction. Nicky On Sat, 03 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: Well Tenebroust, I think we can safely say that American abductions could sometimes be the military because they sometimes pretend they are aliens by using virtual reality scenarios. But the American govt did build about 50 bases for the greys which was done by Rand Corp. I'll find the info. English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Abductees in US have gone underground to both grey and military bases.. According to Branton, there are even more greys under Los Alamos than even under Dulce, a major nesting area going back to native American times. He has heard of an area near Los Alamos where the Feds bring huge shipments of cattle for picking up by grey ships on an almost daily basis. It is a forrested area southwest of Los Alamos where pictograms of 'aliens' exist. So the aliens have been in that area long before the atom-jacks came in. Also setting off nuclear blasts burns away the membrane between this dimension and the next which would allow any interdimensional entities easy access to our dimension. There is apparently more Ets seen in Nevada than some other places possibly due to the nuclear bombs. Other people in other countries have been abducted and people have seen them rising bodily into the air and going into space ships.In South America there are many stories of this. In Mexico there is a video of about 60 UFOs appearing in the sky at once when there was big crowd. Many hundreds saw them and videotaped them. Others in US have seen their partner sliding out of the window from their bed and rising into the air out into the sky. There was story about the UN Sec, prev to this one in his car watching a woman float out of her highrise apartment in NY and into a spaceship. This story is well known. A couple of Govt agents got in touch with the woman and she told them, where she went as she remembered. Nicky A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
C'mon NICK you can't be SERIOUS about all this ET UFO B.S. - these guys are tools - mostly book and video salesman!!! "Conspiracy Theory" and all its associated trappings (UFO's, ETs, Abductions, etc) is now as much a political TOOL as everything else is. I mean, if many of these ex-secret intel or otherwise UFO 'exposers' and supposed 'researchers' were what they claim to be - would it be THAT difficult to "slience" these clowns if the so-called near omnipotent "black" government, or whatever agency is supposed to 'hush' all this nonsense up, is really extant? Its pure religio-political propoganda, religio - because in many cases you will find all sorts of esoteric mumbo jumbo and 'spiritual' twadde and hysteria associated with many of these beliefs if ETs, Abductions, UFO's, and et al. To what purpose is this propoganda however, would be a far more interesting and profuitable exercise and use of time imho. - Original Message - From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: -Original Message- From: tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Since there is no real evidence for it, we must just look at it all as speculation by "army officer X", or some "covert warrior" who now wants to come clean, etc. Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de plumes is because are in danger of their lives. I think anybody who just comes right out like fool with their name, rank and serial number and starts spouting off about the alien treaties the US govt has made with ets, really wouldn't have that much to say. They were intelligence officers and we don't really need to know their personal details. Other intelligence officers can know if they are speaking the truth or not and then it spreads from there.The information they present us with is generally self evident, because of a consistancy that others keep verifying, that they do have experience in inside covert operations. There are photos and documents in these books. Who are you? Why do you use a silly name? We don't know what country you are from, which gender, or how old you are, yet you want respect and to be listened to merely because your typed letters appear in our inboxes. Tell me why you personally don't give us your full name, address, ICQ number, CV, recent photo, race and blood type and birthdate. I'd like to know that before I even consider your comments on my post. You are looking for proof of someone's rank and their name before you believe them. Yet you are doing the same thing by hiding under a false name. Please - you don't even sign your posts!! So you want me to tell you, an indeterminate stranger going on public archives how I came by my info like a complete blabbermouth I'd have to be tortured to reveal it sorry. Please by all means keep us posted with the latest speculation in these areas, but let it reamin speculation and not the recitation of fact. OK but let me say you did get warned, but took too long looking for verifiable factual evidence to your satisfaction. Nicky On Sat, 03 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: Well Tenebroust, I think we can safely say that American abductions could sometimes be the military because they sometimes pretend they are aliens by using virtual reality scenarios. But the American govt did build about 50 bases for the greys which was done by Rand Corp. I'll find the info. English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Abductees in US have gone underground to both grey and military bases.. According to Branton, there are even more greys under Los Alamos than even under Dulce, a major nesting area going back to native American times. He has heard of an area near Los Alamos where the Feds bring huge shipments of cattle for picking up by grey ships on an almost daily basis. It is a forrested area southwest of Los Alamos where pictograms of 'aliens' exist. So the aliens have been in that area long before the atom-jacks came in. Also setting off nuclear blasts burns away the membrane between this dimension and the next which would allow any interdimensional entities easy access to our dimension. There is apparently more Ets seen in Nevada than some other places possibly due to the nuclear bombs. Other people in other countries have been abducted and people have seen them rising bodily into the air and going into space ships.In South America there are many stories of this. In Mexico there is a video of about 60 UFOs appearing in the sky at once when there was big crowd. Many hundreds saw them and videotaped them. Others in US have seen their partner sliding out of the window from their bed and rising into the air out into the sky. There was story about the UN Sec, prev to this one in his car
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de plumes is because are in danger of their lives. And you have EVIDENCE to support this claim? ;-) They were intelligence officers and we don't really need to know their personal details. Yes we do, if we are to adequately and accurately assess their credibility. Other intelligence officers can know if they are speaking the truth or not and then it spreads from there. By that argument, you destroy any credibility these supposed 'ex-intelligence officers' may have...because one would presume that if they were indeed going public with such secret and shocking news, that if there old comrade in arms didn't 'off' them, all those aliens under all those military bases WOULD If we HAVE been invaded by aliens who are being held under military bases, I for one am not going to lose sleep at night if they are so ineffectual as to not be able to silence all these supposed 'ex-intelligence officers' from revealing all these supposed secrets The information they present us with is generally self evident, because of a consistancy that others keep verifying, The same statement can be made of disinformation and propaganda. Disinfo and propaganda only work if they have 'consistancy that others keep verifying'... because the very 'facts' that are used to 'verify' is itself disiniformation... that they do have experience in inside covert operations. So they CLAIM, but what EVIDENCE is there that their claims are valid? There are photos and documents in these books. Photos and documents can easily be faked. You are looking for proof of someone's rank and their name before you believe them. Yet you are doing the same thing by hiding under a false name. The difference is that Tenebroust isn't making any wild claims about being an ex-CIA agent, to having inside knowledge of Top Secret information regarding space aliens, etc. If someone is going to make extraordinary claims, they better be prepared to provide background information on themselves, and documentation to support their claims. If they don't, then anything they claim should be taken with a grain of salt... Please - you don't even sign your posts!! And how do we know that "Nicky Molloy" isn't a pseudonym? And yes, I use a 'fake ID' as part of my email address, and only sign with my first name...but again, it is not _I_ who is making extraordinary claims regarding my background, nor claiming to have 'The Truth' regarding space aliens. OK but let me say you did get warned, but took too long looking for verifiable factual evidence to your satisfaction. Because YOU present it as 'fact'. No one would object if what you post you clearly labeled as SPECULATION, what we object to is you posting it as if there were hard EVIDENCE to support your speculation. So far you have not provided one iota of evidence. June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/5/00 7:58:22 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm sorry to have to tell you this but really this is tiring and its a darn less boring than reading you saying the same confudsed comments every post. If you can't/won't grasp the situation and get your own information which is readily available on the net, I can't help you. As an "friend of the court" might I simply echo June's sentiments and say that there's a big difference between FACT and WILD SPECULATION. Bill. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
snort Actually, I figured it was that even the grey aliens couldn't understand what the British were saying... Arthur Clarke wrote a story years ago about first contact in which the aliens land in Yorkshire, having carefully studied human radio broadcasts and learned perfect (American) English. Naturally, the first person they meet speaks a dialect so broad that the only people who can understand him are his immediate neighbors, and even *they* aren't always certain what he's said. - Original Message - From: "Ynr Chyldz Wyld" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Maybe they taste bad. Remember the old Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man"? Perhaps the space aliens know UK cuisine sucks... ;-) June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: I will posture another scenario the great Hoax of all time. How to achieve One World Government and total domination of the people by the New World Order? Easy: Create an Alien threat so dangerous that we are all glad to surrender our sovereignty we will be happy to surrender or Constitutional rights to combat the ET Menace. National sovereignty is in it's death throws. The WTO, the IMF, the WB, the OAS, the EU, the CIS, NATO and to a considerably lesser extent the UN, are quickly replacing it all over the world. Even China, supposed last bastion of autarchy, is scrambling as fast as it can to join the bleating flock. The era of national rule is ending. The era of corporate hegemony is upon us. Those of us fortunate enough to live in countries where Constitutional rights actually exist, at least on paper, still cling to the quaint delusion that paper can stop bullets. But it isn't true. Paper can't even stop jackboots. It never could. Outside of that, yeah, I agree with you. Reagan said much the same thing in a speech in the eighties. Characteristically, he put a positive spin on it, but it amounted to the same thing. Watch and wait ET one day will manifest themselves by the thousands in our skies. It's far more likely that a clever illusion will manifest in our skies and we'll be led to believe it's ET. See: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/12.html A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Nessie: Either we run this government or this government runs us. Is there anything more obnoxious or disgusting than a Civil SERVANT with a little bit of power, power mind you, not necessarily authority. Some of these people are so stupid they had to lower testing scores for them to get one foot in he door, and these are the most dangerous types. Frankly I prefer the old order, when men were gentlemen and served their country and cherished the Constitution. So, these people are without authority and as far as I know as a conspiracy theorist, the only person I ever heard of who demanded this World Court was the Charles Manson family. Figure that one for this is a return to the 60 period, only it did not work then, and it will not work now. This group wants a Civil War in order to call for Martial Law. Think they will find out that people are not like sheep; they might take a lot and remain silent as they put their families first. But, once you tread upon the toes of the wrong people, well look at Clinton - he cannot go out the front door without 800 armed SS men, 20 black heliocopters, and an entourage long enough to be mistaken for a funeral procession. We have one thing which our forefathers gave to us and it cannot be changed without a vote - and that is the right to vote. These people are so insane they live in a world of their own, for it was none of my making. If we are luckey, the ET's will get them first. A. Saba Dare To Call It Conspiracy A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/5/00 2:51:41 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Its pure religio-political propoganda, religio - because in many cases you will find all sorts of esoteric mumbo jumbo and 'spiritual' twadde and hysteria associated with many of these beliefs if ETs, Abductions, UFO's, and et al. To what purpose is this propoganda however, would be a far more interesting and profuitable exercise and use of time imho. There's little doubt in my mind that there are fear-mongers and disinformants aplenty out there. I agree that trying to discern the purpose of the propaganda would be worthwhile. It isn't the intellect alone that is equips us with discernment. The personal accounts of such people as Whitley Strieber, Betty Andreasson Lucas and others, including those accounts outlined in John Mack, M.D.'s books are quite moving and compelling. In my opinion, black operation tactics simply cannot account for the spiritual growth and awakening that is taking place among experiencers, those who work with them, and those who test them. There's one case some may be interested in - the experience of Katherine (k.t.) Frankovich. The Frankovich account is absent much of the overwhelming emotional content of other accounts, but it is interesting and thought-provoking. Her experience is summarized at the CNI News site: http://www.cninews.com/CNI_Contact.html#Frankovich "CNI News is aware of many reports of alien encounters, describing many bizarre beings. As a rule, we would not present such a report by a single witness, lacking other evidence. But the witness in this case seems to be especially credible and well-qualified, and was interviewed by respected researcher, author and filmmaker Linda Moulton Howe, who characterizes this story as "one of the top two or three" eyewitness encounter reports she has ever recorded. We present this unusual case in the public interest, with no guarantee of its authenticity." The full account is here: http://members.aol.com/KFrnkovich/index.html (Go to UFO/ET encounters and scroll down to "The Lime Grove Encounters" -- Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE
From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Maybe they taste bad. Nessie's trolling again. Well, here's a thought: Most nationalities don't get abducted by greys. Maybe the ones which do -notablyYanquis in comparatively large numbers- have some odd deviant quirk in their DNA makeup which interests the greys? Like indigenous American peoples (do many of them get abducted?) most of us do wonder about the mental equilibrium of los Yanquis. To us you lot ARE Aliens interested only in world domination. Perhaps the space aliens know UK cuisine sucks... ;-) Average British cuisine these days is more likely to be basedon frozen foods marketed by US corporations, BirdsEye, McDonalds, BurgerKing etc. We do eat a lot of hot East Indian cuisine these days. Maybe the Aliens can't handle that! Rory.
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE
LOL... Rory, Butit's been claimed thru the ET grape-vine that ET's prefer those who do not smoke and that ET's prefer those who drink a steady intake of diet soda's... It's claimed that the meat is sweeter... making the victim a delicacy... (and tastes much like barbacoa, the cheek meat of a cow)... However, it is reported that nicotine residue causes severe allergic reactions in ET's and even death. ET Rumor Central has it that thisisthe true reasons behind the massive campaigns against smoking... is not just the cancer thing and health issue with regards to smoking; and is also why the information about nutri-sweet and aspartame being detrimental to your health, (i.e. causesbrain tumors and alzheimer's, etc.), is pooh-pooh'd... These marketing rumors are started and maintained for the sole reasonso that the ET's harvesting of food resources for the future... are preserved, not to mentionhaving viable research victims. SO... there's some more food for UFO thought... Therefore, no matter the nationality or DNA composition... IF you don't smoke and especially if you drink lots of diet sodas, chances are increased by 100% that you will, at some time in this life or the life hereafter, be abductedand/or regardless of being abducted, if you don't smoke and you do drink lots of diet sodas, you are better suited for mind control purposes. snicker, snicker - Original Message - From: Rory Winter To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Maybe they taste bad. Nessie's trolling again. Well, here's a thought: Most nationalities don't get abducted by greys. Maybe the ones which do -notablyYanquis in comparatively large numbers- have some odd deviant quirk in their DNA makeup which interests the greys? Like indigenous American peoples (do many of them get abducted?) most of us do wonder about the mental equilibrium of los Yanquis. To us you lot ARE Aliens interested only in world domination. Perhaps the space aliens know UK cuisine sucks... ;-) Average British cuisine these days is more likely to be basedon frozen foods marketed by US corporations, BirdsEye, McDonalds, BurgerKing etc. We do eat a lot of hot East Indian cuisine these days. Maybe the Aliens can't handle that! Rory. .
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Aleisha Saba wrote: Nessie: Either we run this government or this government runs us. Is there anything more obnoxious or disgusting than a Civil SERVANT with a little bit of power, power mind you, not necessarily authority. Some of these people are so stupid they had to lower testing scores for them to get one foot in he door, and these are the most dangerous types. This is a comforting myth. The governing elites are very intelligent. They are generally much smarter than the population they govern. There are exceptions. Ronald Reagan was an idiot. George Bush Sr. Barely broke the surface, and Shrub is even dumber than Reagan. I was told by someone who worked with Gore that he was intelligent, but I just don't see it. Frankly I prefer the old order, when men were gentlemen and served their country and cherished the Constitution. Really? Where was this? Not in THIS country. So, these people are without authority and as far as I know as a conspiracy theorist, the only person I ever heard of who demanded this World Court was the Charles Manson family. Figure that one for this is a return to the 60 period, only it did not work then, and it will not work now. This group wants a Civil War in order to call for Martial Law. Think they will find out that people are not like sheep; they might take a lot and remain silent as they put their families first. But, once you tread upon the toes of the wrong people, well look at Clinton - he cannot go out the front door without 800 armed SS men, 20 black heliocopters, and an entourage long enough to be mistaken for a funeral procession. We have one thing which our forefathers gave to us and it cannot be changed without a vote - and that is the right to vote. Your vote is worthless. It was one of the first things to go. These people are so insane they live in a world of their own, for it was none of my making. This is true. If we are luckey, the ET's will get them first. Not quite. If we're lucky the ET's will get the ET sensitives first so they will quit being a distraction from serious matters. Joshua2 A. Saba Dare To Call It Conspiracy A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry to have to tell you this No you're not... but really this is tiring and its a darn less boring than reading you saying the same confudsed comments every post. "Confudsed"? If you can't/won't grasp the situation and get your own information which is readily available on the net, I can't help you. You are the one who is presumably 'confused' Sure, there is loads of 'information' on the Internet. But information is not necessarily EVIDENCE. And very often it is disinformation. Provide evidence that there aren't aliens here because if you investigate, there is more evidence that there is company down in underground bases than not. You are asking us to prove a negative. Prove that I did NOT shoot JFK. Prove that I did NOT have a torrid affair with Jacques Vallee, whose whispered pillowtalk to me revealed all the secrets of UFOs that he knew... not to mention some interesting gossip regarding Mr. Webre... Prove that I was NOT at Woodstock in August of 1969... Prove that I did NOT walk on the moon with Neil Armstrong that same month... There is absolutely NO 'evidence' supporting what you purport to be FACT... there IS information, of various degrees of credibility. But again, information is not necessarily EVIDENCE. I"ve been studying the situation for at least 10 years, and have personal experiences Can you prove that they were NOT hallucinations? Can you prove that they were NOT the effects of mind control? and know UNTOLD others who have had dealings with Ets. The same questions apply to these 'untold others'. And unless you're claiming to have had dealings with these same ETs, all you have is hearsay. I could tell you that I and untold others have been repeatedly abducted by motorcycle gangsor Arab terrorists...or Satanists... or leprechauns... How would you know that our claims were NOT true? If there are 6 billion people on this planet, untold thousands of UFOs flying about and still we stubbornly believe we are the only planet inhabited in this solar system, No one has said that. What we are saying is that you and the other 'true believers' have yet to present any HARD EVIDENCE to support the claim that UFOs are powered by ETs... And tell me...of all the "billions and billions" (to borrow Carl Sagan's famous phrase) of planets not only in our own solar system, but throughout the universe...why have your supposed ETs chosen this measly planet? What is it about Earth and/or homo sapiens that intrigues them so much that they ignore all the other planets and concentrate on this one? and any of these UFOs out there could have colonized the whole solar system by now, "Could have" isn't the same as "did". CASE CLOSED You failed to even successfully open it. Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de plumes is because are in danger of their lives. And you have EVIDENCE to support this claim? ;-) I notice you failed to respond to this. What's the matter...ET got your tongue? Or is it because you DON'T have any evidence to back up this claim? They were intelligence officers and we don't really need to know their personal details. Yes we do, if we are to adequately and accurately assess their credibility. Again, no answer. You take the coward's way out by responding by attacking those who question you, because you know you can't back up any of your claims. You also failed to address my question as to why these supposed ex-intelligence officers aren't being silenced by either their ex-comrades-in-arms, or by the ETs themselves. Are your ETs that ineffectual? Or is it because these supposed ex-intelligence officers are really LYING... June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Samantha L." [EMAIL PROTECTED] It isn't the intellect alone that is equips us with discernment. The personal accounts of such people as Whitley Strieber, Betty Andreasson Lucas and others, including those accounts outlined in John Mack, M.D.'s books are quite moving and compelling. Agreed. Their various accounts perhaps do point to contact with extraterrestial beings. But there could be other explanations as well, and we would be well served to constantly keep that in mind. What Strieber, Lucas, et al have experienced could perhaps be what manipulators behind the scenes WISH them to believe they experienced. Smoke and mirrors. Don't concentrate on the magic trick on stage, look for who's pulling the strings and pushing the buttons behind the curtain... As a side note: Betty Andreasson Lucas now lives in my homestate of Connecticut, and has written about strange occurances happening around where she lives. I TOO have had strange occurances happen in the same neck of the woods. But in my case, while the events/sensations were strange, I never attributed what I saw or heard to beings from outer space, but suspect the occurances originated from the military -- there IS an Air National Guard station in the area... June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Well, you could certainly be right about these "Ex-military" and "Ex-spy" guys, but then again they could just be people who are; 1) Full of a lot of bull who hope to make money using their bullshit stories. 2) Get a kick out of stringing people along with a bunch of malarky. 3) Are currently running a program of disinformation in order to undermine people looking into real intelligence matters. Real researchers often wind up dead when they get too close to stories, none of these yahoos ever do. As for me, well, you can take or leave me, it matters not. I am not trying to sell an agenda, neither am I desirous for people to believe what I say, and as for creditability give me as little or as much as you wish, it's up to you. I don't sign my posts because I like some measure of anonymity, but to people who have been here a while I am known, by my real name even. I don't care whether you listen to or believe me, but if you were circumspect about your beliefs Nicky you would question what these whistleblowers say just as much if not more than anything I say, since I'm not saying anything as outlandish as the claims they make. I never asked for "undeniable proof" of "aliens" or any other matter. I just want some evidence that can be weighed, and "military man-X's" say-so is not good enough for me. If it good enough for you then so be it. You may answer or not, it means nothing to me one way or the other. Naturally I'd prefer to carry on a rational two-sided discussion of issues, but if you wish you can ignore me just as easily. On Mon, 05 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: -Original Message- From: tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Since there is no real evidence for it, we must just look at it all as speculation by "army officer X", or some "covert warrior" who now wants to come clean, etc. Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de plumes is because are in danger of their lives. I think anybody who just comes right out like fool with their name, rank and serial number and starts spouting off about the alien treaties the US govt has made with ets, really wouldn't have that much to say. They were intelligence officers and we don't really need to know their personal details. Other intelligence officers can know if they are speaking the truth or not and then it spreads from there.The information they present us with is generally self evident, because of a consistancy that others keep verifying, that they do have experience in inside covert operations. There are photos and documents in these books. Who are you? Why do you use a silly name? We don't know what country you are from, which gender, or how old you are, yet you want respect and to be listened to merely because your typed letters appear in our inboxes. Tell me why you personally don't give us your full name, address, ICQ number, CV, recent photo, race and blood type and birthdate. I'd like to know that before I even consider your comments on my post. You are looking for proof of someone's rank and their name before you believe them. Yet you are doing the same thing by hiding under a false name. Please - you don't even sign your posts!! So you want me to tell you, an indeterminate stranger going on public archives how I came by my info like a complete blabbermouth I'd have to be tortured to reveal it sorry. Please by all means keep us posted with the latest speculation in these areas, but let it reamin speculation and not the recitation of fact. OK but let me say you did get warned, but took too long looking for verifiable factual evidence to your satisfaction. Nicky "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Thanks David, and I concur. It would seem to be that people believe what they want to believe and give much greater weight to ideas that they have a vested interest in. I do the same thing myself, and know it is universal. We could all do with getting behind things and down to the nitty gritty as it were. On Mon, 05 June 2000, David Sutherland wrote: C'mon NICK you can't be SERIOUS about all this ET UFO B.S. - these guys are tools - mostly book and video salesman!!! "Conspiracy Theory" and all its associated trappings (UFO's, ETs, Abductions, etc) is now as much a political TOOL as everything else is. I mean, if many of these ex-secret intel or otherwise UFO 'exposers' and supposed 'researchers' were what they claim to be - would it be THAT difficult to "slience" these clowns if the so-called near omnipotent "black" government, or whatever agency is supposed to 'hush' all this nonsense up, is really extant? Its pure religio-political propoganda, religio - because in many cases you will find all sorts of esoteric mumbo jumbo and 'spiritual' twadde and hysteria associated with many of these beliefs if ETs, Abductions, UFO's, and et al. To what purpose is this propoganda however, would be a far more interesting and profuitable exercise and use of time imho. - Original Message - From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: -Original Message- From: tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Since there is no real evidence for it, we must just look at it all as speculation by "army officer X", or some "covert warrior" who now wants to come clean, etc. Well tenebroust, I guess the reason Commander X, Branton etc use non de plumes is because are in danger of their lives. I think anybody who just comes right out like fool with their name, rank and serial number and starts spouting off about the alien treaties the US govt has made with ets, really wouldn't have that much to say. They were intelligence officers and we don't really need to know their personal details. Other intelligence officers can know if they are speaking the truth or not and then it spreads from there.The information they present us with is generally self evident, because of a consistancy that others keep verifying, that they do have experience in inside covert operations. There are photos and documents in these books. Who are you? Why do you use a silly name? We don't know what country you are from, which gender, or how old you are, yet you want respect and to be listened to merely because your typed letters appear in our inboxes. Tell me why you personally don't give us your full name, address, ICQ number, CV, recent photo, race and blood type and birthdate. I'd like to know that before I even consider your comments on my post. You are looking for proof of someone's rank and their name before you believe them. Yet you are doing the same thing by hiding under a false name. Please - you don't even sign your posts!! So you want me to tell you, an indeterminate stranger going on public archives how I came by my info like a complete blabbermouth I'd have to be tortured to reveal it sorry. Please by all means keep us posted with the latest speculation in these areas, but let it reamin speculation and not the recitation of fact. OK but let me say you did get warned, but took too long looking for verifiable factual evidence to your satisfaction. Nicky On Sat, 03 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: Well Tenebroust, I think we can safely say that American abductions could sometimes be the military because they sometimes pretend they are aliens by using virtual reality scenarios. But the American govt did build about 50 bases for the greys which was done by Rand Corp. I'll find the info. English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Abductees in US have gone underground to both grey and military bases.. According to Branton, there are even more greys under Los Alamos than even under Dulce, a major nesting area going back to native American times. He has heard of an area near Los Alamos where the Feds bring huge shipments of cattle for picking up by grey ships on an almost daily basis. It is a forrested area southwest of Los Alamos where pictograms of 'aliens' exist. So the aliens have been in that area long before the atom-jacks came in. Also setting off nuclear blasts burns away the membrane between this dimension and the next which would allow any interdimensional entities easy access to our dimension. There is apparently more Ets seen in Nevada than some other places possibly due to the nuclear bombs. Other people in other countries have been abducted and peo
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
I think we can safely say that American abductions could sometimes be the military because they sometimes pretend they are aliens by using virtual reality scenarios. Agreed. But why are they doing this? They must have a plan. The military doesn't take a dump without a having a plan first. What's their plan here? How do the rest of us fit into it? What are they trying to accomplish? Who's in command of the operation? But the American govt did build about 50 bases for the greys which was done by Rand Corp. I'll find the info. 'Info"? Do you once again mean somebody else's unsubstantiated allegations? Please, we've had quite enough of those. Let's see some forensic evidence. Abductees in US have gone underground to both grey and military bases.. This is an unsubstantiated allegation. According to Branton, there are even more greys under Los Alamos than even under Dulce, a major nesting area going back to native American times. Who is this guy and how does he sunstantiate his allegations? He has heard of By definition, this is hearsay. Also setting off nuclear blasts burns away the membrane between this dimension and the next which would allow any interdimensional entities easy access to our dimension. Define "dimension." Define "membrane." Define "entities." There is apparently more Ets seen in Nevada than some other places possibly due to the nuclear bombs. There are, in fact, a great many UFO sightings in Nevada. There are also a great many military tests of experimental aircraft. Coincidence? Perhaps. Other people in other countries have been abducted and people have seen them rising bodily into the air and going into space ships. In October of 1967 I personally saw the Pentagon levitate about fifty feet in the air exactly like Abbie Hoffman said it would. I also had just been tear gassed and beaten severely with clubs by the federal marshalls. Coincidence? Perhaps. In Mexico there is a video of about 60 UFOs appearing in the sky at once when there was big crowd. Many hundreds saw them and videotaped them. That doesn't make them ET. Others in US have seen their partner sliding out of the window from their bed and rising into the air out into the sky. I saw both my partner and myself dissolve into a puddle of Day-Glo goo. We were tripping our brains out on acid. Coincidence? Perhaps. There was story about the UN Sec, prev to this one in his car watching a woman float out of her highrise apartment in NY and into a spaceship. This story is well known. A couple of Govt agents got in touch with the woman and she told them, where she went as she remembered. Key word: "Story" English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Maybe they taste bad. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/4/00 11:33:25 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think we can safely say that American abductions could sometimes be the military because they sometimes pretend they are aliens by using virtual reality scenarios. Agreed. But why are they doing this? They must have a plan. The military doesn't take a dump without a having a plan first. What's their plan here? How do the rest of us fit into it? What are they trying to accomplish? Who's in command of the operation? I think they use more than virtual reality to convince people, if by saying virtual reality you mean that the experience is a head-set experience rather than a real physical abduction. The only reason I can think of that the military would do this would be to create fear around the "alien" issue. I'd like to know what other ideas anyone else might have. If it is to create fear, then why? I can only think of two possible reasons; 1) to lead the public to think the govt is working with evil aliens to further the sense of fear, intimidation and powerlessness people already have regarding the govt., or 2) there really are "aliens" and the govt wants us to believe they're evil so that they don't lose their grip on us. Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/4/00 12:27:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If it is to create fear, then why? I can only think of two possible reasons; 1) to lead the public to think the govt is working with evil aliens to further the sense of fear, intimidation and powerlessness people already have regarding the govt., or 2) there really are "aliens" and the govt wants us to believe they're evil so that they don't lose their grip on us. I will posture another scenario the great Hoax of all time. How to achieve One World Government and total domination of the people by the New World Order? Easy: Create an Alien threat so dangerous that we are all glad to surrender our sovereignty we will be happy to surrender or Constitutional rights to combat the ET Menace. Watch and wait ET one day will manifest themselves by the thousands in our skies. Carl Looking for Gort and Klatu Hoping they do not Bradda Nicto A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
In a message dated 6/4/00 12:38:25 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I will posture another scenario the great Hoax of all time. How to achieve One World Government and total domination of the people by the New World Order? Easy: Create an Alien threat so dangerous that we are all glad to surrender our sovereignty we will be happy to surrender or Constitutional rights to combat the ET Menace. Watch and wait ET one day will manifest themselves by the thousands in our skies. Yes, that certainly fits as well. When the government creates this manifestation, do you suspect it will be holographic or physical, i.e., craft created in secret? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Maybe they taste bad. Remember the old Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man"? Perhaps the space aliens know UK cuisine sucks... ;-) June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Carl Amedio" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I will posture another scenario the great Hoax of all time. How to achieve One World Government and total domination of the people by the New World Order? Easy: Create an Alien threat so dangerous that we are all glad to surrender our sovereignty we will be happy to surrender or Constitutional rights to combat the ET Menace. Watch and wait ET one day will manifest themselves by the thousands in our skies. Didn't our ol' prez Ronnie Reagan babble about something similar during his reign? Something to the effect that if the Earth was threatened from outer space, we'd all forget our differences and become one? June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Weel, Nicky, I'm glad to see that the idea of "fake" abductions done by the military (and no doubt some "intelligence agencies" as well) is something you will readily agree is taking place. The fact that some are then allows the next question, that is, if SOME are definitely this, and we have some circumstantial evidence for, then why not ALL cases of REAL (ie; not the result of hallucination, mind control induced, hypnotic induced, mental aberration, false memory, etc.) abduction are done by the military? (I'm not necessarily saying they all are, but it is a legitimate question that logically follows.) You always have some fascinating things to say about alien bases and genetic experimentation and hybrid creatures. I would just love to see some real evidence for what you have posted here, it would be the conspiracy to end all conspiracies for sure. Since there is no real evidence for it, we must just look at it all as speculation by "army officer X", or some "covert warrior" who now wants to come clean, etc. Until I see something substantial that is evidence for some of thse fantastic ideas I would rather believe that the military and intelligence agencies in this country and throughout the world are using the "alien" and UFO phenomenon as covers for black operation programs. UFO-like craft for drug shipment? Abductions for genetic experimentation, that would be highly illegal and unethical if done in the open? Mind control experimentation? Implantation? Trauma based programming? Genetic sequencing for the purpose of developing biological weapons? The truth of what is going on will probably never be known for sure, but the best bets, and the best odds are on the solution that has bad old evil HUMAN BEINGS behind it all, and the only aliens are ones wearing rubber suits or created in computer imagery. Please by all means keep us posted with the latest speculation in these areas, but let it reamin speculation and not the recitation of fact. On Sat, 03 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: Well Tenebroust, I think we can safely say that American abductions could sometimes be the military because they sometimes pretend they are aliens by using virtual reality scenarios. But the American govt did build about 50 bases for the greys which was done by Rand Corp. I'll find the info. English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Abductees in US have gone underground to both grey and military bases.. According to Branton, there are even more greys under Los Alamos than even under Dulce, a major nesting area going back to native American times. He has heard of an area near Los Alamos where the Feds bring huge shipments of cattle for picking up by grey ships on an almost daily basis. It is a forrested area southwest of Los Alamos where pictograms of 'aliens' exist. So the aliens have been in that area long before the atom-jacks came in. Also setting off nuclear blasts burns away the membrane between this dimension and the next which would allow any interdimensional entities easy access to our dimension. There is apparently more Ets seen in Nevada than some other places possibly due to the nuclear bombs. Other people in other countries have been abducted and people have seen them rising bodily into the air and going into space ships.In South America there are many stories of this. In Mexico there is a video of about 60 UFOs appearing in the sky at once when there was big crowd. Many hundreds saw them and videotaped them. Others in US have seen their partner sliding out of the window from their bed and rising into the air out into the sky. There was story about the UN Sec, prev to this one in his car watching a woman float out of her highrise apartment in NY and into a spaceship. This story is well known. A couple of Govt agents got in touch with the woman and she told them, where she went as she remembered. Nicky -Original Message- From: tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, 4 June 2000 05:02 Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: Nicky; No one can say whether someone was abducted by aliens or if the thing was induced, especially from a thrid party point examination. That is the whole point. IF the experience CAN be induced, and you admit it can, then this is a logical explanation which requires no aliens at all. On the other hand the idea that "aliens" ARE abducting people just as these experiencers say they are that cannot be refuted completely, thus it remains a POSSIBILITY. On Thu, 01 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: Sorry June its pointless talking further, eg how do we know you aren't a CIA agent? It obvious if you were you may know more for a start on this subject instead of turning this into a psychological exercise in belief systems..As for you saying I have dogma. All I said is I
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
The scenario as posited is possible. If it is true then it would stand to reason that there would be actual physical craft as well as whatever other high tech stuff that could be brought to bear to give it more weight and make it more convincing, including, perhaps, holographich projection, etc. My personal feeling is that there is no ultimate comeuppance, that the UFO and abduction phenomenenon are used to cover illegal black operations today. Stealth and unusual fast aircraft are seen and they are thoought to be UFO's oof "alien" origin and that suits the military just fine. It may be they are on secret missions of death, or transportation of drugs or arms, etc. Abductions are probably for the study of mind control weaponry or genetic and bilogical experimentation in the real world with unwitting subjects to get more "reliable" data than you would in approved studies (and they could be terminal studies, which could never be conducted in the open). On Sun, 04 June 2000, "Samantha L." wrote: In a message dated 6/4/00 12:38:25 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I will posture another scenario the great Hoax of all time. How to achieve One World Government and total domination of the people by the New World Order? Easy: Create an Alien threat so dangerous that we are all glad to surrender our sovereignty we will be happy to surrender or Constitutional rights to combat the ET Menace. Watch and wait ET one day will manifest themselves by the thousands in our skies. Yes, that certainly fits as well. When the government creates this manifestation, do you suspect it will be holographic or physical, i.e., craft created in secret? Samantha A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Nicky; No one can say whether someone was abducted by aliens or if the thing was induced, especially from a thrid party point examination. That is the whole point. IF the experience CAN be induced, and you admit it can, then this is a logical explanation which requires no aliens at all. On the other hand the idea that "aliens" ARE abducting people just as these experiencers say they are that cannot be refuted completely, thus it remains a POSSIBILITY. On Thu, 01 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: Sorry June its pointless talking further, eg how do we know you aren't a CIA agent? It obvious if you were you may know more for a start on this subject instead of turning this into a psychological exercise in belief systems..As for you saying I have dogma. All I said is I'm a Christian and nothing else, the rest is your 'belief system' you so gladly promote. Nicky wrote: I guess you want proof of underground Et bases too? June wrote: Yes. Anything less is just opinion and belief, a subjective interpretation of limited data. ETs are only one of many possibilities, not the only one. Now for the next hurdle - Nessie do you think some theorists like M Persinger have any more value than those who have personally experienced Ets? Why trust anybody who is sitting reading books on this subject and comparing an abductee experience to an induced one. Sure listen to the guy but he knows no more about the 'reality' of it than June who hasn't read much at all on this. But we do 'believe' from others who have seen throught he deception that the US military are faking alien abductions so they can abduct people. But there are geniune abductions because people ahve travelled in spaceships and gone to other planets and brought back souvenirs. Alec Newald being one. Neither person, theorist or ignorant, can tell without being a personal witness at the time if someone's abduction occurred. So if one person who hasn't personally been abducted, comments on another's experience then they actually know nothing about it. Reasons being- 1 They have read too many books including disinfo so can't decide truth. 2.They have had drugs and think reality can't be deciphered properly because they can't remember what it is like to have a clear mind anymore, so think everyone else is as confused. 3.They have no firm beliefs and can't perceive another's point of view. 4.They see a scientific explanation for everything and are not able to decipher the complexity of other dimensions and a person's direct experience of them. 5. They are unable to see beyond themselves to be objective about Earth and its manifold off planet guided expressions of evolution to perfection. Nicky -Original Message- From: nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: what different things do you think the UFOs are? See: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/15.html A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Well Tenebroust, I think we can safely say that American abductions could sometimes be the military because they sometimes pretend they are aliens by using virtual reality scenarios. But the American govt did build about 50 bases for the greys which was done by Rand Corp. I'll find the info. English people seldom get abducted by greys according to a UK UFO mag. Abductees in US have gone underground to both grey and military bases.. According to Branton, there are even more greys under Los Alamos than even under Dulce, a major nesting area going back to native American times. He has heard of an area near Los Alamos where the Feds bring huge shipments of cattle for picking up by grey ships on an almost daily basis. It is a forrested area southwest of Los Alamos where pictograms of 'aliens' exist. So the aliens have been in that area long before the atom-jacks came in. Also setting off nuclear blasts burns away the membrane between this dimension and the next which would allow any interdimensional entities easy access to our dimension. There is apparently more Ets seen in Nevada than some other places possibly due to the nuclear bombs. Other people in other countries have been abducted and people have seen them rising bodily into the air and going into space ships.In South America there are many stories of this. In Mexico there is a video of about 60 UFOs appearing in the sky at once when there was big crowd. Many hundreds saw them and videotaped them. Others in US have seen their partner sliding out of the window from their bed and rising into the air out into the sky. There was story about the UN Sec, prev to this one in his car watching a woman float out of her highrise apartment in NY and into a spaceship. This story is well known. A couple of Govt agents got in touch with the woman and she told them, where she went as she remembered. Nicky -Original Message- From: tenebroust [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, 4 June 2000 05:02 Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: Nicky; No one can say whether someone was abducted by aliens or if the thing was induced, especially from a thrid party point examination. That is the whole point. IF the experience CAN be induced, and you admit it can, then this is a logical explanation which requires no aliens at all. On the other hand the idea that "aliens" ARE abducting people just as these experiencers say they are that cannot be refuted completely, thus it remains a POSSIBILITY. On Thu, 01 June 2000, Nicky Molloy wrote: Sorry June its pointless talking further, eg how do we know you aren't a CIA agent? It obvious if you were you may know more for a start on this subject instead of turning this into a psychological exercise in belief systems..As for you saying I have dogma. All I said is I'm a Christian and nothing else, the rest is your 'belief system' you so gladly promote. Nicky wrote: I guess you want proof of underground Et bases too? June wrote: Yes. Anything less is just opinion and belief, a subjective interpretation of limited data. ETs are only one of many possibilities, not the only one. Now for the next hurdle - Nessie do you think some theorists like M Persinger have any more value than those who have personally experienced Ets? Why trust anybody who is sitting reading books on this subject and comparing an abductee experience to an induced one. Sure listen to the guy but he knows no more about the 'reality' of it than June who hasn't read much at all on this. But we do 'believe' from others who have seen throught he deception that the US military are faking alien abductions so they can abduct people. But there are geniune abductions because people ahve travelled in spaceships and gone to other planets and brought back souvenirs. Alec Newald being one. Neither person, theorist or ignorant, can tell without being a personal witness at the time if someone's abduction occurred. So if one person who hasn't personally been abducted, comments on another's experience then they actually know nothing about it. Reasons being- 1 They have read too many books including disinfo so can't decide truth. 2.They have had drugs and think reality can't be deciphered properly because they can't remember what it is like to have a clear mind anymore, so think everyone else is as confused. 3.They have no firm beliefs and can't perceive another's point of view. 4.They see a scientific explanation for everything and are not able to decipher the complexity of other dimensions and a person's direct experience of them. 5. They are unable to see beyond themselves to be objective about Earth and its manifold off planet guided expressions of evolution to perfection. Nicky -Original Message- From: nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: what different things do you think the UFOs are? See: http://ww
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
-Original Message-
From: nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
{M Persinger] He's more than a theorists. He builds and experiments with
electromagnetic
devices that substantially alter consciousness and perception. He has
produced hallucinations of alien like beings.
OK has he been abducted personally - now how do the two experiences compare?
It is also possible to actually see the real thing when certain sections of
the brain are opened technically. People take drugs and see all sorts. Plus
past lives can surface with all sorts of mind stimulation - racial memories
and childhood experiences, not to mention TV which has gone into the
subconscious reservoirs.
Well here's the crux of the problem and why I want you to become at least
objective enough to be willing to contribute your considerable time and
resources to helping me figure it out. If the military, US and/or
otherwise, or the intelligence community, or any other covert grouping of
humans is responsible for the abduction phenomenon, what are their
motives? What is their plan?
For the past couple of years my posts have done this.
Are they faking alien abduction so they can abduct people? Perhaps. If so,
why are they abducting people and why have they chosen this particular
cover-up?
Well if they want to experiment with creating embryos at Dulce it gives them
an excuse to get eggs and sperm and then nobody much will find out because
no one will believe them without 'proof'. Others will say that's your
reality, belief system, you see the Ets as gods, your subjective reality
and whatever June generally says. [shrug]
Are they faking alien abduction so they can abduct people? Then again,
perhaps not. Maybe they have another motive. If so, what is it? And
again, what is their plan? Why are they doing this? What are they going to
do next?
They are experimenting to create the 6th Aryan root race - a kind of
superman that can live in another dimension with psychic powers.. I have
already posted much info on the reasons for this. Plus the opening of the
world's gridlines to make this planet into the 4th dimension and for the
chosen to ascend etc,etc,etc The hybrid grey/human is obviously being
integrated slowly and being assimilated into the remaining gene pool. After
all only a quarter breed can actually survive this dimension. Why would
Nazis at Dulce let grey alien blood enter the population? - well maybe they
gave the earth to the greys. After all they are going thru timeportals to
the Pleiades with JJ Hurtak to repopulate other planets. I don't expect
their own kind would be incorporating grey blood and they may think who
cares if the other races do, we'll be gone? I could be wrong.
Given the intelligence community's long standing predilection for the
surreptitiously administering drugs (See:
http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/18.html and http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/17.html)
one can never be entirely certain that what one is experiencing now is
reality or the result of being drugged and not told about it.
Possibly - after all do we even know if HAARP is only stimulating the
section of the brain which makes people think they are having a religious
experience? The Second Coming has to be created by the scientists to give
people a reason to leave willingly en masse to get on the ships. NASA's Blue
Beam has this agenda. There are plenty of Illuminati pawn in mainstream
religions to tell people what to do and think. There were articles on this
last year. Plus various substances, inc selenium, being fed to the
population to enhance radio signals which manifest as voices entering the
subconscious. It is expected that the implanted will he herded off thru time
portals to other planetary systems. Ask Dr Hurtak he seems to one of the
supervisors or consultants for the mass evacuations.
3.They have no firm beliefs and can't perceive another's point of view.
Well if a person has a clear ordered mind they know what they believe. Then
they can differentiate between what they believe and what someone else
believes.
Everything has a scientific explanation and no one can completely decipher
the complexity of any direct experience, their own or anybody's, any
experience.
Don't think so. We don't know enough about science yet to fit all
experiences into the limited capacity of our brains. There would have to be
a grey area [pardon the pun] between this world and the next that cannot be
measured and defined here. I don't think that a religious experience with
God should or could be defined scientifically. But ET experiences should be
able to be defined scientifically I think.
Everything is perfect. It might not be a perfect whatever you want it to
be but it's definitely a perfect whatever it is.
Well I can see flaws everywhere, but things can be better if time is put
in.IMHO.
Nicky
A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A
DECLARATION DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic
screeds are
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry June its pointless talking further, eg how do we know you aren't a CIA agent? It obvious if you were you may know more for a start on this subject instead of turning this into a psychological exercise in belief systems.. But how would you know whether I am or am not a CIA agent? And that perhaps I'm an agent with an agenda? Or just a regular Jane Doe with an agenda, which I help further by CLAIMING I am a CIA agent, when in fact I am not? You don't. You just accept at face value, with no research or critical analysis, anybody's claim that parallels your own entrenched belief system. And THAT, dear lady, is dogma... As for you saying I have dogma. All I said is I'm a Christian and nothing else, the rest is your 'belief system' you so gladly promote. Dogma comes in many flavors. Some of it comes dressed as traditional, mainstream religiosity. Still other comes cloaked as a belief in ETs, when there is no EVIDENCE for the existence of ETs. Nessie do you think some theorists like M Persinger have any more value than those who have personally experienced Ets? Why trust anybody who is sitting reading books on this subject and comparing an abductee experience to an induced one. Sure listen to the guy but he knows no more about the 'reality' of it than June who hasn't read much at all on this. Bulloney. I have 4 decades of reading on the subject. Readings encompassing ALL theories, unlike you who put on blinders and refuse to consider anything except your own dogma. There is not one obstensible 'abductee' who has ever provided hard evidence that what they experienced was due to the actions of beings who flew to Earth in a spaceship from some other physical place in the universe. That is not to say that those who claim to have been abducted are lying, or are hallucinating. I'm prepared to accept that the majority had SOMETHING happen to them. But there is no EVIDENCE that it was ET instigated...only that what they remember afterwards includes a supposed ET scenario. Memories can be implanted. There could be a very mundane, earthly agency afoot with these abductions, and agency that is utilizing false ET scenarios to cover their tracks, and perhaps achieve their own agenda. Again, testimony by any number of people claiming to have been abducted by space beings is not EVIDENCE that ETs exist. But we do 'believe' from others who have seen throught he deception that the US military are faking alien abductions so they can abduct people. But there are geniune abductions because people ahve travelled in spaceships and gone to other planets and brought back souvenirs. No, certain people have thoughts, which they interpret as memories, that seemed to encompass travel in a spaceship, when in fact it could be mind control and/or implanted false memory. Two cases in point: The first entails what was one of the first cases of 'alien encounter' and possible abduction, which occurred somewhere in South America in the late 1950s or early 1960s (it's been over 2 decades since I read about this, so I don't remember the exact country -- it may have been Brazil, or perhaps Venezuela)... A man was traveling from a distant town to his home town at night (this now is such a common scenario it seems cliche'd, but at the time this was a new phenomenom)...saw a strange light in the sky, next thing he knew he was farther down the road than where he remembered, had an hour or so of missing time, etc. etc. He had no memory of what happened during the missing time, but was very nervous, to the point that he became ill. When he finally sought medical help (his ailment was psychologically based, not due to any 'implant'), he began to 'spontaneously remember' what had happened to him during that missing time It was the typical scenario...the light came down, of course it was a spaceship...his car engine 'mysteriously' died, he got out of the car to see better, got met by space aliens and brought on board their ship where they did any number of terrible experiments on him, only relieved by a sexy, buxom blonde coming in at the end and having sex with him (he claimed they forced him to have an erection)... This was roundly reported in all the UFO and 'strange events' publications of the day...probably even got printed up in a book or two as 'proof' that ETs were coming here and doing things to us... But then another gentleman came forward... Seems he was an acquaintance of the first gentleman...not close acquaintances, but they knew each other in passing, and more importantly the 2nd guy knew the vehicle the 1st guy drove... And seems the 2nd guy was driving that same road that same night...remembered the 1st guy passing him on the road...the 2nd guy was driving somewhat slower, plus had to stop for gas...so he was a couple of miles behind the 1st guy... The 2nd guy never saw any strange light in the sky...he DID see a strange glow of lights ahead
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
OK has he been abducted personally - Not that he has said. now how do the two experiences compare? Good question. It is also possible to actually see the real thing when certain sections of the brain are opened technically. People take drugs and see all sorts. Plus past lives can surface with all sorts of mind stimulation - racial memories and childhood experiences, not to mention TV which has gone into the subconscious reservoirs. Past lives? You believe in past lives? How do you reconcile that with your religion? If the military, US and/or otherwise, or the intelligence community, or any other covert grouping of humans is responsible for the abduction phenomenon, what are their motives? What is their plan? For the past couple of years my posts have done this. No, they have not. They have steadfastly contended that the abduction experience is of ET genesis. Well if they want to experiment with creating embryos at Dulce it gives them an excuse to get eggs and sperm and then nobody much will find out because no one will believe them without 'proof'. Both eggs and sperm are readily available on the open market, cheap. They are experimenting to create the 6th Aryan root race - a kind of superman that can live in another dimension with psychic powers.. Who is "they"? Did they tell you this personally? If so, why? The hybrid grey/human is obviously being integrated slowly and being assimilated into the remaining gene pool. What makes this obvious to you? After all only a quarter breed can actually survive this dimension. Says who? Why would Nazis at Dulce let grey alien blood enter the population? - First establish that there are Nazis at Dulce, then we can spend time and bandwidth discussing their motives. After all they are going thru timeportals to the Pleiades with JJ Hurtak to repopulate other planets. Says who? What's a time portal? How does it work? How do you know? Possibly - after all do we even know if HAARP is only stimulating the section of the brain which makes people think they are having a religious experience? HARP's alleged psychoactive capabilities could indeed be a factor in the strategy of whoever is behind the UFO/abduction experience. So could The Second Coming See : http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/12.html and http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/13.html Plus various substances, inc selenium, being fed to the population to enhance radio signals which manifest as voices entering the subconscious. Selenium ingestion potentiates voice-to-skull transmission? What's your source on this? Ask Dr Hurtak he seems to one of the supervisors or consultants for the mass evacuations. How so? Well if a person has a clear ordered mind they know what they believe. Then they can differentiate between what they believe and what someone else believes. A person can have an unclear and disordered mind and yet believe that their mind is clear and ordered. It happens every day. No one knows what someone else believes, only what they appear to believe. Everything has a scientific explanation and no one can completely decipher the complexity of any direct experience, their own or anybody's, any experience. Don't think so. We don't know enough about science yet to fit all experiences into the limited capacity of our brains. That in no way means there is no scientific explanation, only that we don't know it yet. The capacity of our brains is limited primarily by number. Nobody is smart enough to make it through life with only one brain. That's why we pool knowledge, here and elsewhere. That's why I am attempting to help enable your own brain to contribute to the solution to this great mystery. Your brain works fine. It is your mind that has been clouded by disinformation and by lack of training in the area of critical analysis . For example : I don't think that a religious experience with God should or could be defined scientifically. This is clouded reasoning. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: Memories can be implanted. Indeed, we cannot even trust our own memories, let alone the memories of others. There could be a very mundane, earthly agency afoot with these abductions, and agency that is utilizing false ET scenarios to cover their tracks, and perhaps achieve their own agenda. If so, what exactly is their agenda? Can it be uncovered? Deduced? Countered? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
What you and your other 'true believers' don't seem to get is that people like Nessie, myself, and others who question the unwavering "ETs are flying the UFOs" party line don't necessarily REJECT the ET hypothesis...but that we recognize that there is no EVIDENCE for the ET hypothesis, and that other explanations could just as well suffice. You, on the other hand, dogmatically adhere to "ETs are here" line, and refuse to consider any other explanation. ]] YOU GO, GIRL!!! [[ eagle 1 http://www.paradise-web.com/plus_le/plus.mirage?who=k2 - Original Message - From: "Ynr Chyldz Wyld" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: From: "Nicky Molloy" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry June its pointless talking further, eg how do we know you aren't a CIA agent? It obvious if you were you may know more for a start on this subject instead of turning this into a psychological exercise in belief systems.. But how would you know whether I am or am not a CIA agent? And that perhaps I'm an agent with an agenda? Or just a regular Jane Doe with an agenda, which I help further by CLAIMING I am a CIA agent, when in fact I am not? You don't. You just accept at face value, with no research or critical analysis, anybody's claim that parallels your own entrenched belief system. And THAT, dear lady, is dogma... As for you saying I have dogma. All I said is I'm a Christian and nothing else, the rest is your 'belief system' you so gladly promote. Dogma comes in many flavors. Some of it comes dressed as traditional, mainstream religiosity. Still other comes cloaked as a belief in ETs, when there is no EVIDENCE for the existence of ETs. Nessie do you think some theorists like M Persinger have any more value than those who have personally experienced Ets? Why trust anybody who is sitting reading books on this subject and comparing an abductee experience to an induced one. Sure listen to the guy but he knows no more about the 'reality' of it than June who hasn't read much at all on this. Bulloney. I have 4 decades of reading on the subject. Readings encompassing ALL theories, unlike you who put on blinders and refuse to consider anything except your own dogma. There is not one obstensible 'abductee' who has ever provided hard evidence that what they experienced was due to the actions of beings who flew to Earth in a spaceship from some other physical place in the universe. That is not to say that those who claim to have been abducted are lying, or are hallucinating. I'm prepared to accept that the majority had SOMETHING happen to them. But there is no EVIDENCE that it was ET instigated...only that what they remember afterwards includes a supposed ET scenario. Memories can be implanted. There could be a very mundane, earthly agency afoot with these abductions, and agency that is utilizing false ET scenarios to cover their tracks, and perhaps achieve their own agenda. Again, testimony by any number of people claiming to have been abducted by space beings is not EVIDENCE that ETs exist. But we do 'believe' from others who have seen throught he deception that the US military are faking alien abductions so they can abduct people. But there are geniune abductions because people ahve travelled in spaceships and gone to other planets and brought back souvenirs. No, certain people have thoughts, which they interpret as memories, that seemed to encompass travel in a spaceship, when in fact it could be mind control and/or implanted false memory. Two cases in point: The first entails what was one of the first cases of 'alien encounter' and possible abduction, which occurred somewhere in South America in the late 1950s or early 1960s (it's been over 2 decades since I read about this, so I don't remember the exact country -- it may have been Brazil, or perhaps Venezuela)... A man was traveling from a distant town to his home town at night (this now is such a common scenario it seems cliche'd, but at the time this was a new phenomenom)...saw a strange light in the sky, next thing he knew he was farther down the road than where he remembered, had an hour or so of missing time, etc. etc. He had no memory of what happened during the missing time, but was very nervous, to the point that he became ill. When he finally sought medical help (his ailment was psychologically based, not due to any 'implant'), he began to 'spontaneously remember' what had happened to him during that missing time It was the typical scenario...the light came down, of course it was a spaceship...his car engine 'mysteriously' died, he got out of the car to see better, got met by space aliens and brought on board their ship where they did any number of terrible experiments on him, only relieved by a sexy, buxom bl
Re: [CTRL] UFO Evidence - Nessie's Page
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: Nessie - Oh So you ARE the Mind Control Nessie. Guilty as charged. It's a great little list. I read it every day. Well, I covered the United Nations Outer Space Conference in Vienna for THE GUARDIAN. There were lots of spacepeople there, communist and capitalist. But just call me the Guardian PLUS. I think you are doing a remarkable job of documenting the lower half of the UFO/ET phenomenon - that part of it which is composed of artefacts of the Secret State - Mind Control and Black Ops craft. Thanks. I try. BUT you are an unwitting tool of the Secret State, IMHO. Obviously. I'm still alive. And you? The secret state has a two tier strategy. One tier is the tier you cover - they want to appropriate ETness, and with that gain mind control, spiritual and virtual dominion over mankind. Tier two involves destruction and assassination of any human forces that support extraterrestrial intelligence, and warfare wherever possible upon ET intelligence as it has a presence on Earth. This latter tier is documented by the many reports of space-based laser anti-ET weapons. It's called, eliminate the evidence. That's an interesting hypothesis. But there is a far more mundane (and plausible) explanation for the desire to produce a space based laser weapon system. It is world domination. My feeling - and I appeal to you as a former fellow colleague at the Guardian that that it is vital for you to present your readership with a blanced picture - tier one and tier two. You may have to go into research areas you have not covered, and expand your pictures, but you are forming reality for a lot of people - not only that, readers of the Guardian, who tend to be taken in by secret state anti ET propaganda, paradoxically. Alfred Webre, Vancouver, BC That's exactly what I'm doing right here, right now. If there is an actual ET component to the phenomenon, I want to know about it. So far, I'm not convinced. Your whole "second tier" theory is based on those in power believing that ETs are a threat. I see no evidence they are. I see no evidence they should. I see a lot of evidence to support the view that they are actively deceiving us into believing that either ETs are a threat or that ETs have come to save us. Why, I ask, do they want us to believe this? http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/15.html You're better of reading this on the actual site so you can pursue the live links. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
On Wed, 31 May 2000, tenebroust wrote: First of all the Dogon Tribe's star origin and stellar mythology may, indeed, have been faked. That's crap. beyond Earth? Even if the Dogon record actual alien visitation, which I doubt, it does nothing to support the same today. It does a lot to say that "they" HAVE been here, no? = Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT FROM THE DESK OF:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Mike Spitzer* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends Shalom, A Salaam Aleikum, and to all, A Good Day. = A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
Here's a post I made to another list a while ago, i.e., regarding the STATE-OF-THE-ART on REAL scientific investigation regarding the Dogon: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:05:55 -0700 (MST) From: MICHAEL SPITZER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: DOGON: "TRACKING THE ALIEN ASTROENGINEERS" I just got this (they run LATE!). The author and I have been corresponding with each other since about 1994-5. The following essay appears in The RIAP Bulletin out of former Russia. Several earlier research papers regarding the Dogon (not essays like this, i.e., this is more an editorial...Dr. Rubtsov is the RIAP Chairman and Chief Editor of the bulletin) were published in previous RIAP Bulletins. After those were published, I mentioned to him that there had been a great deal of quite scholarly and academic discussion among members of this group that I thought he would be interested in, i.e., unique, valid, and in some cases, original research findings that it seemed the authors of those prior papers were not aware of. He mentioned his interest in reading such so I forwarded A GREAT DEAL of the discussion we had on the Dogon to him a year or so ago. He was VERY impressed with the level of knowledge and discussion, and I believe that it, at least in part, was responsible for his writing this essay. By the way, the RIAP Bulletin is published quarterly, and is printed and distributed by "Frontier Science Foundation," Netherlands. I have subscribed since RIAP was founded in [about] 1994. Good stuff...very different than all the "non-scientific" stuff we normally see regarding UFOs, etc. For more information regarding subscriptions., etc., see: http://www.f-s-f.com Pax vobiscum, Mike From: RIAP Bulletin Voloume 4, Number 4 October-December 1998 TRACKING THE ALIEN ASTROENGINEERS An Essay By Vladimir V. Rubtsov Chairman Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena (RIAP) Kharkov, UKRAINE Copyright 1998 RIAP - All Rights Reserved When studying the question of possible ancient visits of alien beings to the Earth, a researcher sometimes encounters data which cannot be interpreted as yet in a strictly scientific manner, but which, at the same time, are interesting enough to be regarded seriously and unbiasedly. Such data can be found, in particular, in the well-known "mythological astronomy" of the Dogon, an African people, living mainly in the West African Republic of Mali. The Dogon believe that the Universe is "infinite, but measurable" and is filled with "spiral stellar worlds" (yalu ulo), one of which contains the Sun. This world may be seen in the sky as the Milky Way. The majori = Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh, YHVH, TZEVAOT FROM THE DESK OF:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Mike Spitzer* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Best Way To Destroy Enemies Is To Change Them To Friends Shalom, A Salaam Aleikum, and to all, A Good Day. = A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
[And, another tid-bit as far as the current status regarding the "scientific paradigm" regarding the Dogon, et al. --MS] LETTER TO THE EDITOR DID THE MAORI KNOW ABOUT THE RING OF JUPITER? Sir, Discussing the origin of the anomalously high astronomical knowledge of the Dogon [1], it would be very important to search for and, if found, to analyze similar anomalies in mythologies of other peoples whose levels of cultural development are comparable to that of the Dogon. In this connection I would like to draw the readers' attention to a strange astronomical conception discovered among the Maori, the native inhabitants of New Zealand, by the ethnologist E.Best (1856-1931). They call one of the planets that can be seen with the naked eye Parearau [2, pp.43-44]. The structure of this word is rather intriguing: the word pare denotes a fillet or head-band, and arau means "entangled". "Her band quite surrounds her, hence she is called Parearau", - say the Maori of this heavenly body, considering it a companion or wife of Kopu Venus. There is also another interesting statement: "That green-eyed star is Parearau; that is the reason why she wears her circlet." As E.Best indicates, one should see here a reference to the mourning-cap or head-band formerly worn by widows of Maoriland. So, which of the planets of the Solar system was designated by the Maori as Parearau? E.Best gives us a straight answer to this question: "Four old natives in different localities of the Bay of Plenty applied the name to Jupiter." However, in Best's time it seemed absurd to describe Jupiter as a planet surrounded by a circlet. Probably, for this reason alone a certain Stowell, whose words were cited by Best, believed that Parearau was nothing but Saturn with its rings [2, p. 43]. Not rejecting this interpretation on principle, Best put forward another one: the word Parearau might designate the cloud belts on Jupiter. This opinion was later supported by R.Collyns, a New Zealander and author of several Ancient Astronaut books [3, p. 145]. Today we can however re-evaluate these data. What is of prime importance, we can no more "fear" the idea of Jupiter surrounded by a circlet. Jupiter's ring was discovered by the Voyager-1 space probe in 1979. Therefore there are at present no reasons to doubt the identification of Parearau with this planet. Judging from Best's book, the Maori were quite sure of that. For a mythological-poetical mentality it would be quite natural to consider Jupiter - the third brightest heavenly luminary in the night sky after the Moon and Venus - as the "green-eyed" wife of the latter. (The gender assignment of the planets is here opposite to the "European" one.) On the other hand, when speaking of Jupiter as Parearau (lit.: "entangled by a fillet"), the Maori meant a ring rather than belts. Head gear is a separate object, external in relation to the "head" ( = the planetary body). One can suppose that if the Maori had wished to describe (in their system of notions) Jupiter's cloud belts, they would have compared them to their own custom of decorating the face with colored patterns! Now, everything seems to point to the fact that the Maori did know about the ring of Jupiter. This knowledge is, however, more anomalous than their supposed knowledge of Saturn's rings, and even more anomalous than many components of the Dogon astronomical lore. Specifically, this fact cannot be explained away by the two hypotheses that were suggested to cope with the "Dogon problem" - the hypothesis of a primitive telescope [4] and that of a European missionary enlightening this African people about modern astronomy [5]. The Maori could not have seen the ring of Jupiter even if they had invented a telescope - simply because the ring cannot be observed from the Earth. As we know, it was discovered using spacecraft. To learn about the ring from a civilized traveller (say, from a missionary) would have been equally impossible. E.Best completed his field explorations as early as 1911, devoting the next two decades to analyzing the collected data and writing his monographs. At that period, science had no idea of Jupiter's ring, even a hypothetical one. (A little-known fact: the existence of the ring was predicted by the Ukrainian astronomer S.K.Vsekhsvyatskiy, based on repeated observations of a thin dark strip on the equator of Jupiter. Vsekhsvyatskiy interpreted this strip as the shadow of Jupiter's ring. But this happened only in the early 1960-s [6].) All this suggests that the Maori could have obtained knowledge of this ring only from another civilization, one that surpassed mankind at least in the field of astronomy. Of course, to verily this hypothesis, we need weighty additional data proving that the New Zealand aborigines did in fact have contact with aliens. But the sole possible alternative explanation would be the hypothesis of a purely accidental coincidence between the mythological notion of Parearau, and our
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
[Ooops, Here is Part 2 of 4 on this. --MS] On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, MICHAEL SPITZER wrote: Here's a post I made to another list a while ago, i.e., regarding the STATE-OF-THE-ART on REAL scientific investigation regarding the Dogon: (cont from Part 1) which contains the Sun. This world may be seen in the sky as the Milky Way. The majori.. From: RIAP Bulletin Voloume 4, Number 4 October-December 1998 TRACKING THE ALIEN ASTROENGINEERS An Essay By Vladimir V. Rubtsov Chairman Research Institute on Anomalous Phenomena (RIAP) Kharkov, UKRAINE Copyright 1998 RIAP - All Rights Reserved When studying the question of possible ancient visits of alien beings to the Earth, a researcher sometimes encounters data which cannot be interpreted as yet in a strictly scientific manner, but which, at the same time, are interesting enough to be regarded seriously and unbiasedly. Such data can be found, in particular, in the well-known "mythological astronomy" of the Dogon, an African people, living mainly in the West African Republic of Mali. The Dogon believe that the Universe is "infinite, but measurable" and is filled with "spiral stellar worlds" (yalu ulo), one of which contains the Sun. This world may be seen in the sky as the Milky Way. The majority of heavenly bodies represent the "external" star system, whose influence on terrestrial life is, according to the Dogon, relatively small. There exists, however, also the "internal" system, which "participates directly in the life and development of men on the Earth". It includes Orion, Sirius, Pleiades and some other stars. These celestial bodies form the "support of the seat of the world". It is Sirius that occupies the main position among them, being called the "navel of the world". Sirius is considered by the Dogon as a triple stellar system, consisting of the stars Sigi tolo (our Sirius A), Po tolo (Sirius B, a white dwarf) and Emme ya tolo (the hypothetical Sirius C, yet to be discovered). Close similarity between the characteristics of Po tolo and Sirius B (both bodies are white, small, very heavy, with fifty-year periods of revolution around the main star) stimulated a lively discussion on the pages of scientific - and not so scientific - journals about 20 years ago. Robert Temple, in his book The Sirius Mystery [1], and Eric Guerrier in his Essai sur Ia cosmogonie des Dogon [2] supposed that these data (as well as other astronomical information possessed by the Dogon) were brought to the Earth by cosmic visitors. However, their reasons could not break through the "armour of denial" of established science. The hypothesis of a recent adoption of this knowledge from Europeans appeared convincing for most scientists. It is natural that other components of the Dogon mythology, which have little in common with modern scientific knowledge, attracted even less scholarly interest. Yes, this is a real mythology, almost pure and not very simple. To analyze its content is not an easy task, and the results are not self-evident. Nonetheless, it is possible that we can derive from such an analysis some important information. Let us recall very briefly the main points of this mythology... The supreme god Amma made the whole Universe within a grain of po, which is the Dogon name for fonio, the smallest kind of millet. This grain was located inside the "egg of the world", it "spun and scattered the particles of matter in a sonorous and luminous motion", remaining, however, inaudible and invisible" [3, p. l30]. Having opened this "egg", Amma let the spiral stellar worlds out, and it was thus that the Universe was realized". Then the god created the first living being - Nommo anagonno. This being is described either as a half-man, half-snake having flexible limbs, without any joints, red eyes and forked tongue, or just as a fish, namely a Silurus, sheat-fish, or cat-fish. This Nommo multiplied, and there appeared four Nommos: Nommo die, Nommo titiyayne, O Nommo and, at last, Ogo, a very harmful creature. As distinct from other Nommos, he is never represented as a fish. Instead of awaiting patiently the completion of the Amma's work, he hurriedly made an "ark" and rushed into space, wishing "to look at the world". Thus, he took disorder into the young world. After several voyages, Ogo landed on the Earth and turned into the pale fox or fennec, named Yurugu. Made indignant by Ogo's escapades, Amma took everything he had created and put it back into the grain of po. To "purify" the Universe, he had to sacrifice one of the Nommos. After that "by whirling and... acting as a spring, the po... distributed all things in the Universe" [3, p. 423]. The empty shell of the grain became the star Po. In "the first year of the life of man on Earth" this star exploded, and its brightness decreased slowly during 240 years until it completely faded. It is interesting that there is in the Dogon mythology another image of the Sirius system. According to it, the main star
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
On Thu, 1 Jun 2000, MICHAEL SPITZER wrote: Here's a post I made to another list a while ago, i.e., regarding the STATE-OF-THE-ART on REAL scientific investigation regarding the Dogon: Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 01:05:55 -0700 (MST) From: MICHAEL SPITZER [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: DOGON: "TRACKING THE ALIEN ASTROENGINEERS" (Part 3 of 4) It is known in astronomy that a white dwarf arises from a red giant as this loses its mass. This process is usually accompanied by a slow ejection of a planetary nebula which eventually dissipates into space. But sometimes the remaining core of the red giant can retain a mass exceeding the so-called Chandrasekhar limit (about 1.3 Sun masses). This leads inevitably to disastrous self-compression of the core and its explosion as a Supernova. As a result, powerful streams of matter and radiation are ejected into the surrounding space. If such an event had ever happened in the Sirius system, at a small (on the cosmic scale) distance from the Solar system, it might have been fatal for the terrestrial biosphere. My idea was that some highly developed supercivilization could have tried to remove the excess of stellar matter from Sirius B, thus saving life and civilization on Earth. Really, the only thing we know for sure about the evolution of the Sirius system is the fact that Sirius B was once a red giant whose mass exceeded that of Sirius A (that's why the former evolved more rapidly). The initial orbit of Sirius B was, most likely, circular; now it is a highly elongated ellipse. This suggests that the mass loss was accompanied by some considerable disturbances. Some part of the "lost" matter probably contaminated the atmosphere of Sirius A (see: [5]). But the real course of events is still very unclear. The situation will seem even more in-volved if we bear in mind the possible presence of the second satellite in this system, as is asserted by the Dogon and confirmed by recent astrophysical data (see: [6]). It would be certainly very helpful to study thoroughly the Sirius system with modern astronomical equipment (say, by radio interferometers with a very long baseline). But it appears that relevant (and rather interesting) information can also be found in those vestiges of the great mythologies of Europe, Asia and Africa which have survived till now, however odd and strange they may appear to us. This information cannot be taken at face value, for the myth is a very special form of thinking and knowledge, much different from our modern mentality. We should carefully analyze and interpret mythological stories and characters to understand their profound sense and real significance. There are on this road many pitfalls and false turnings, but there may also be found some road-signs and important hints. Let us go through some of them. It is well known that the most common (though not the only) name for Sirius in the ancient world was "The Dog" (with the variants: the wolf, the fox, the jackal). The ancient Egyptians called it, in particular, the Starry Dog and identified the star with Anubis, the jackal - or dog-headed god of the dead. The North American Indian Cherokee tribe believed that this Dog awaited the souls of the dead on the Milky Way; the Blackfeet Indians named the star "Dog-face." The oldest Hindu name for Sirius was Sarama, "one of the Twin Watch-dogs of the Milky Way" [7, p. 119]. The Chinese knew this star as the Heavenly Wolf, and the Greeks as the Dog of Orion, or more specifically, as the dog Orthrus, a son of the monster Typhon. The Romans saw in it the Southern Cerberus, a watch-dog of their hell. As for the fennec Ogo, it is the smallest wild animal in the dog family (which hints probably at the small size of Sirius B). What is more, Sirius represented not a decent house dog, but a terrible beast, monstrous and dangerous for everyone. It was related to death, hell and disaster. Orphrus' father Typhon was identified with the Egyptian evil god Seth (who, incidentally, was sometimes portrayed as a dog-headed creature) and was regarded as one of the monstrous adversaries of Zeus. The latter fought with Typhon and defeated him with much difficulty. Finally, Ogo himself is, as we know, a very harmful character in the Dogon mythology. The worship of a dangerous dog was wide-spread in the ancient world, and this is rather strange: the dog was in fact the "first friend" of ancient man and played a very important part in his everyday life. Nonetheless, the fact remains: dogs (as well as wolves and jackals, which seems much more natural) were regarded as chthonian animals, guardians of the underworld. The "Inmost Story" of the Mongols contains a motif of monstrous metal dogs who feed on human flesh. The terrible dog Yarchuk, from Slavic mythology, had a wolf tooth in his mouth and two vipers under his lower lip. According to a Russian belief, a Solar eclipse happens when the heavenly wolf swallows the Sun (this idea was not unfamiliar to many
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
(Part 4 of 4, regarding RIAP on The Dogon) It is known in astronomy that a white dwarf arises from a red giant as this loses its mass. This process is usually accompanied by a slow ejection of a planetary nebula which eventually dissipates into space. But sometimes the remaining core of the red giant can retain a mass exceeding the so-called Chandrasekhar limit (about 1.3 Sun masses). This leads inevitably to disastrous self-compression of the core and its explosion as a Supernova. As a result, powerful streams of matter and radiation are ejected into the surrounding space. If such an event had ever happened in the Sirius system, at a small (on the cosmic scale) distance from the Solar system, it might have been fatal for the terrestrial biosphere. My idea was that some highly developed supercivilization could have tried to remove the excess of stellar matter from Sirius B, thus saving life and civilization on Earth. Really, the only thing we know for sure about the evolution of the Sirius system is the fact that Sirius B was once a red giant whose mass exceeded that of Sirius A (that's why the former evolved more rapidly). The initial orbit of Sirius B was, most likely, circular; now it is a highly elongated ellipse. This suggests that the mass loss was accompanied by some considerable disturbances. Some part of the "lost" matter probably contaminated the atmosphere of Sirius A (see: [5]). But the real course of events is still very unclear. The situation will seem even more in-volved if we bear in mind the possible presence of the second satellite in this system, as is asserted by the Dogon and confirmed by recent astrophysical data (see: [6]). It would be certainly very helpful to study thoroughly the Sirius system with modern astronomical equipment (say, by radio interferometers with a very long baseline). But it appears that relevant (and rather interesting) information can also be found in those vestiges of the great mythologies of Europe, Asia and Africa which have survived till now, however odd and strange they may appear to us. This information cannot be taken at face value, for the myth is a very special form of thinking and knowledge, much different from our modern mentality. We should carefully analyze and interpret mythological stories and characters to understand their profound sense and real significance. There are on this road many pitfalls and false turnings, but there may also be found some road-signs and important hints. Let us go through some of them. It is well known that the most common (though not the only) name for Sirius in the ancient world was "The Dog" (with the variants: the wolf, the fox, the jackal). The ancient Egyptians called it, in particular, the Starry Dog and identified the star with Anubis, the jackal - or dog-headed god of the dead. The North American Indian Cherokee tribe believed that this Dog awaited the souls of the dead on the Milky Way; the Blackfeet Indians named the star "Dog-face." The oldest Hindu name for Sirius was Sarama, "one of the Twin Watch-dogs of the Milky Way" [7, p. 119]. The Chinese knew this star as the Heavenly Wolf, and the Greeks as the Dog of Orion, or more specifically, as the dog Orthrus, a son of the monster Typhon. The Romans saw in it the Southern Cerberus, a watch-dog of their hell. As for the fennec Ogo, it is the smallest wild animal in the dog family (which hints probably at the small size of Sirius B). What is more, Sirius represented not a decent house dog, but a terrible beast, monstrous and dangerous for everyone. It was related to death, hell and disaster. Orphrus' father Typhon was identified with the Egyptian evil god Seth (who, incidentally, was sometimes portrayed as a dog-headed creature) and was regarded as one of the monstrous adversaries of Zeus. The latter fought with Typhon and defeated him with much difficulty. Finally, Ogo himself is, as we know, a very harmful character in the Dogon mythology. The worship of a dangerous dog was wide-spread in the ancient world, and this is rather strange: the dog was in fact the "first friend" of ancient man and played a very important part in his everyday life. Nonetheless, the fact remains: dogs (as well as wolves and jackals, which seems much more natural) were regarded as chthonian animals, guardians of the underworld. The "Inmost Story" of the Mongols contains a motif of monstrous metal dogs who feed on human flesh. The terrible dog Yarchuk, from Slavic mythology, had a wolf tooth in his mouth and two vipers under his lower lip. According to a Russian belief, a Solar eclipse happens when the heavenly wolf swallows the Sun (this idea was not unfamiliar to many other peoples). The Ukrainians believed that Ursa Major was a team of horses with harness; "every night a black dog tries to bite through the harness, in order to destroy the world, but he does not achieve his disastrous aim: at dawn, when he runs to drink from a spring, the harness renews itself" [8,
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
[Ooops AGAIN:( I accidentally posted "Part 3" AGAIN as "Part 4." The following is the REAL final part, i.e., "Part 4 of 4." --MS] In a recent work [13] R.Ceragioli has made an attempt to solve the riddle of Sirius' redness in the context of classical philology: the color red was in antiquity a token of danger. The most typical cultural pattern for Sirius connected it with fire, fever, rage, bloodshed, heat and other perils; that is why it may have been called red even in spite of evidence. It is questionable, however, if Ptolemy and Seneca were so much devoted to the cultural tradition that they did not trust their own eyes and took a color of Sirius' scintillations for the intrinsic color of the star. It seems more appropriate to assume that they did in fact see Sirius as red, even though this can have been just a temporary reddening related to some physical (or astroengineering?) processes in this stellar system (cf. [14]). What is even more important, the solution suggested by R.Ceragioli does not provide the answer to the main question: why the ancients attached so great "negative" importance to Sirius? Egyptian priests watched this star closely at its heliacal risings, believing that its bright and white color presaged abundance, and its redness betokened war. The inhabitants of the Greek island of Ceos, when expecting Sirius' rising "prayed for the north winds to cool the 'Dog's' heat, which in their myths had once threatened to burn the world" [13, p. 615]. All that fits well with the "astroengineering hypothesis", raising at the same time some doubts: was the cosmic bomb" discharged completely? Let us remember that the myth of the Dogon tells us that the blacksmiths only chained up the Dog, but it does not mean they rendered it quite harmless. Therefore, we can suppose that alien astroengineering activities inside the Sirius system were finished only recently (if at all) Yet, they could have started in a much earlier epoch, even a few millions of years ago. However strange this may sound, we have another evidence of a fantastically deep historical memory of the Dogon: they know quite well that the lake Bosumtwi in Ghana was formed when a giant meteorite fell on the Earth [2, p. 1961. According to the results of a special investigation, this infall happened not later than 1.3, or even 1.6, million years ago. It is rather doubtful that somebody, living then on our planet (it was the epoch of Homo habilis and maybe of the early Pithecanthropus), could have retained this information and conveyed it to the future Homo sapiens. This knowledge may also be of paleovisit origin. Of course, we should not understand the Dogon mention of the "first year of the life of man on Earth", when, as they believe, Sirius B exploded, too literally, but it would be a mistake to reject these data a priori. Now, what can we conclude from all that has been said above? The astroengineering hypothesis seems to be worthy of further investigation. It can hardly be proved just on the basis of mythological studies, but such studies can lead us to a preliminary outline of those distant (in time, as well as in space) events. Mythology may be regarded as a special language, which has preserved for us fragmentary data from the dawn of the world. I mean here by the "world" not only the Earth, but rather all our region of the cosmos - which has been called by the Dogon the "internal system of the stars". Events, that once took place in various parts of this region, were "projected" onto the firmament with its visible luminaries, becoming subsequently the subjects of mythological stories. These stories have interacted and become partly confused, so that it is now almost impossible to go this way back and reach the initial point. It only remains to rely on human imagination as another instrument of knowledge... At the same time, we should be very careful when trying to prove our assumptions. Usually they are more temporary tools than faithful models of reality. Thus, the concept of paleovisits as arrivals of extraterrestrial starships whose crews taught our ancestors to the fundamentals of civilized life and science, may prove to be uncritical adoption from science fiction stories, whereas the real situation was much more complicated. There can have been some events in the history of the "internal star system", which we can neither understand as yet, nor even assume. There are, for example, in the Dogon mythology some hints at the multidimensional structure of the Universe. Moreover, Nommos seem to be not a "simple" supercivilization whose origin is similar to that of our civilization, only the level of development being much higher, but rather an independent branch of evolution of cosmic intelligent beings, very different from such planetary offspring as we humans are. It is very important to go from questions to reliable facts and convincing answers, but it may be still more important to go from answers to new questions.
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
From: "nessie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know about the research on the Betty Hill star maps. Tell the story. I'll listen. From what I've read (and I suspect I have many more decades of reading on the matter than Samantha), for years the 'star map' that Betty Hill drew was touted as 'proof' of her encounter. But after about 20 years, someone finally got the bright idea to present the 'map' to a group of astronomers, astrophysicists, etc. They to a person pronounced the map as 'worthless' if it was meant as a 'road map' by which to steer a space vehicle (which is what Betty Hill claimed she was told by the aliens)... The map is 2-dimensional -- and more importantly, Betty described the 'chart' from which she drew her 'map' as also being 2-dimensional. This makes it totally worthless for its claimed use, as someone actually 'driving' a space vehicle would need a 3D guide to the universe... That's not to say I think the Hills were con artists who created a deliberate hoax. I believe that they sincerely believed what they said happened to them indeed happened. But that does not mean that what they BELIEVED happened indeed actually happened, in an objective sense. Only that SOMETHING happened to them, which afterwards they remembered as an 'alien abduction' scenario. Clues to what perhaps the real nature of their abduction may have been are hidden in their own descriptions of what they remembered... June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
From: "MICHAEL SPITZER" [EMAIL PROTECTED] First of all the Dogon Tribe's star origin and stellar mythology may, indeed, have been faked. That's crap. And your EVIDENCE that it's 'crap'? beyond Earth? Even if the Dogon record actual alien visitation, which I doubt, it does nothing to support the same today. It does a lot to say that "they" HAVE been here, no? Possibly. But the point being made is that just because 'they' MAY have been here in the past does not give a sufficient basis to presume that 'they' are still here today... June A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
Yuriy N. Morozov, Ph.D. A guy I don't know says that a guy he don't know says that a guys who's dead heard from another guy who's dead a story about how some mythological being may have looked, so therefore UFO are ET. Right. Sure. If I ever get arrested for a crime, I sure hope Mike Spitzer is the DA, because I'm not going to have to hire Johnny Cochran to get out of the charge. This is an intriguing story, though. It may even mean what Mike implies it means. However, it is not evidence. At most, it's a clue. It's worth pursuing, perhaps, but nothing more. Vladimir V. Rubtsov Rubtsov says that Temple says that Guerrier says that an unnamed source says that "the" Dogon believe. etc., etc. I'd like to hear this from a Dogon, any Dogon, even a Christian Dogon. The key to understanding this story is the dates. Tell us when the nature of the Sirius system became known to science. Tell us how many years passed before this story was collected by Guerrier's unnamed source. Demonstrate conclusively how it is completely impossible for Guerrier's unnamed source to have heard the story from a European before he told it. People tell anthropologists all kinds of stuff, true and otherwise, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are personal material gain and the status inherent of being the anthropologist's chosen informant. They also sometimes play mind games with the anthropologist. They also lie to impress anthropologists. Anthropologists themselves make stuff up sometimes, likewise to achieve status and material gain. Anthropologists learn this as part of their training. Was Guerrier's unnamed source even an anthropologist, trained to select reliable informants and to sort out the crap from what they say? Rubtsov does not tell us. But it appears that relevant (and rather interesting) information can also be foundin those vestiges of the great mythologies of Europe, Asia and Africa which have survived till now, however odd and strange they may appear to us. Sirius is awfully bright. Of course people told stories about it. They had to pass the time somehow. TV hadn't been invented. The wide distribution of certain mythological motifs can be explained, at least in part, by travel and trade. Our ancestors got around a whole lot further and a whole lot earlier than orthodox nineteenth and twentieth science gives them credit for. What's more, it is becoming increasingly clear that in all probability a great disaster befell our planet as recently as ten to twelve thousand years ago, well within the range of oral history. Could "Typhon" have been a small comet that first appeared in the sky in the vicinity of Sirius and struck somewhere in the Artic or the Pacific, causing the sudden die off of the Pleistocene mega fauna everywhere but Africa and southern Asia (the other side of the planet), and wiping out or seriously damaging human civilization and setting back human progress thousands of years? Could the collective memory of this trauma be carried down to this day as various myths? It has certainly been suggested before, and with the same set of "proofs" people use for archeo-ET contact. In fact more credible proofs than myths exist for human civilization in, and prior to, the last Ice Age than exist for archeo-ET contact. The Piri Reis maps come to mind, among others. Nevertheless, it's an intriguing hypothesis, nothing more. So is archeo-ET contact. While I am not willing to rule out archeo-ET contact per se, I find natural disaster to be a far more likely explanation for the collapse of any truly ancient higher civilization. As for the ever growing popularity of of the "ET culture bearer" hypothesis, I sense a strong undercurrent of European ethno-centrism. Why do I always hear about how "Benevolent Space Brothers" must have helped build the Pyramids, etc. but not the equally impressive great cathedrals of Europe? Could it be because white people are said to have built the cathedrals, and being white they didn't need any help from superior beings, unlike our "little brown brothers" who "lack the capacity" to achieve engineering feats of this scale? We must factor in racism, here. Everybody is a racist. This is a racist society. This is a racist world. It wasn't always thus, but it is today. Anybody who grows up on earth carries with them as part of their cultural baggage a certain irrational undercurrent that severely inhibits the ability to objectively analyze the stories, the beliefs and the culture itself of other peoples . As a student of history, familiar with the centuries of abominable atrocities that the French have committed in Africa, I am loath to take any Frenchman at his word about anything that he says happened in Africa, ever. Does this mean I am a bigot. Of course it does. We all are, to greater or lesser extents. Does it mean my mistrust is misplaced? Not in the least. Frenchmen have lied through their teeth about Africa and Africans for centuries and centuries, ever
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
In a message dated 00-05-31 19:50:20 EDT, you write: Look, I don't doubt, and am not trying to debunk, UFOs. I've seen two of them, one fairly close. They exist. What I'm questioning is their ET origin. Where is the forensic evidence of an ET origin for UFOs? Nessie - You ARE a sly one, aren't you? Well, you being our only contactee so far, what different things do you think the UFOs are? Alfred ;-) _ earthradioTV.com - Alternative News Forum for ecology, politics consciousness. MIRROR SITES: USA http://www.earthradioTV.com/ CZECH http://mujweb.cz/www/ecologynews/ UK http://members.tripod.co.uk/ecologynews/ Canada http://www.ecologynews.com/ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
That's right Michael at best it would support the notion that aliens came here from
somewhere else at some time in the past, and have nothing to say about anything
happening today. I don't put much weight into it though based on other work done
investigating it. As for your comments about the faking of the Dogon tribes "stellar
mythology", there has been work done which determined that they could indeed have been
influenced from Europeans and developed the myth from information they gained in that
contact. It is at least a real possibility.
On Wed, 31 May 2000, MICHAEL SPITZER wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2000, tenebroust wrote:
First of all the Dogon Tribe's star origin and stellar
mythology may, indeed, have been faked.
That's crap.
beyond Earth? Even if the Dogon record actual alien
visitation, which I doubt, it does nothing to support the
same today.
It does a lot to say that "they" HAVE been here, no?
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Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From what I've read (and I suspect I have many more decades of reading on the matter than Samantha), for years the 'star map' that Betty Hill drew was touted as 'proof' of her encounter. er, no, june, you don't appear to have read enough. A lady has recently completed a 3 dimensional model of the betty hill star map and it shows that the map is a valid star map with all the relationships between the various stars converting more accurately from the original 2D sketch. anyway I thought that the CHINA argument would have made you pause - if only to apply the same strict criteria of evidence to american political posts. WE cannot prove anything to each other - but this list serves as a conduit for research ideas. There are plenty of people that you label believers who have a fine sense of Conjecture and Refutation with ever having read Karl Poppers Work. I think that you completely underestimate the intelligence and common sense of some of the people on this list You cannot prove to me that Science Exists. LOGIC DOESN't EXIST - goedels incompleteness paradox NUMBERS are unjustifiable - FREGE's SET THEORY THERE IS ONLY A DREAM of UNIFYING THEORY - particle wave duality paradox EINSTEIN WAS WRONG - OBLERS PARADOX BIG BANG is a bad idea - Great Wall of Galaxies A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: what different things do you think the UFOs are? See: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/15.html A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Re; [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
From: "Andrew Hennessey" [EMAIL PROTECTED] From what I've read (and I suspect I have many more decades of reading on the matter than Samantha), for years the 'star map' that Betty Hill drew was touted as 'proof' of her encounter. er, no, june, you don't appear to have read enough. A lady has recently completed a 3 dimensional model of the betty hill star map and it shows that the map is a valid star map with all the relationships between the various stars converting more accurately from the original 2D sketch. Bulloney Not only have I 'read enough', I'm obviously more well-read than you. As I previously stated, Betty Hill's 2D map was brought to astronomers, astrophysicists, etc., who failed to come up with a meaningful 3D version, even utilizing the best computer hardware and software available. If people who have degrees and years of experience in the field fail to come up with a valid and meaningful 3D map, I don't have much faith in something 'a lady' who doesn't have a name, let alone a mention of her qualifications, comes up with. Betty Hill's 'map' is an inkblot test...one can come up with any sort of permutations one wishes when attempting to translate it from 2D to 3D, it still boils down to the fact that learned astronomers and astrophysicists consider it bunk. And perhaps you would like to tell us why the learned Space Brothers were utilizing the map in 2D? anyway I thought that the CHINA argument would have made you pause No, because it's idiotic. June Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Sorry June its pointless talking further, eg how do we know you aren't a CIA agent? It obvious if you were you may know more for a start on this subject instead of turning this into a psychological exercise in belief systems..As for you saying I have dogma. All I said is I'm a Christian and nothing else, the rest is your 'belief system' you so gladly promote. Nicky wrote: I guess you want proof of underground Et bases too? June wrote: Yes. Anything less is just opinion and belief, a subjective interpretation of limited data. ETs are only one of many possibilities, not the only one. Now for the next hurdle - Nessie do you think some theorists like M Persinger have any more value than those who have personally experienced Ets? Why trust anybody who is sitting reading books on this subject and comparing an abductee experience to an induced one. Sure listen to the guy but he knows no more about the 'reality' of it than June who hasn't read much at all on this. But we do 'believe' from others who have seen throught he deception that the US military are faking alien abductions so they can abduct people. But there are geniune abductions because people ahve travelled in spaceships and gone to other planets and brought back souvenirs. Alec Newald being one. Neither person, theorist or ignorant, can tell without being a personal witness at the time if someone's abduction occurred. So if one person who hasn't personally been abducted, comments on another's experience then they actually know nothing about it. Reasons being- 1 They have read too many books including disinfo so can't decide truth. 2.They have had drugs and think reality can't be deciphered properly because they can't remember what it is like to have a clear mind anymore, so think everyone else is as confused. 3.They have no firm beliefs and can't perceive another's point of view. 4.They see a scientific explanation for everything and are not able to decipher the complexity of other dimensions and a person's direct experience of them. 5. They are unable to see beyond themselves to be objective about Earth and its manifold off planet guided expressions of evolution to perfection. Nicky -Original Message- From: nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: what different things do you think the UFOs are? See: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/15.html A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE:
Nessie do you think some theorists like M Persinger have any more value than those who have personally experienced Ets? He's more than a theorists. He builds and experiments with electromagnetic devices that substantially alter consciousness and perception. He has produced hallucinations of alien like beings. The phenomenon is repeatable. This does not mean that every time somebody thinks they are seeing an alien they are actually being electronically mind controlled. But it does mean the the perception alone can not be considered a reliable account. It might be what it appears to be and it might be the product of electronic mind control. Whether the experience could tell the difference, I don't know. But I suspect Persinger does. Why trust anybody who is sitting reading books on this subject and comparing an abductee experience to an induced one. Like I said, he does more than read books. Sure listen to the guy but he knows no more about the 'reality' of it than June who hasn't read much at all on this. Reality is subjective. But we do 'believe' from others who have seen throught he deception that the US military are faking alien abductions so they can abduct people. Well here's the crux of the problem and why I want you to become at least objective enough to be willing to contribute your considerable time and resources to helping me figure it out. If the military, US and/or otherwise, or the intelligence community, or any other covert grouping of humans is responsible for the abduction phenomenon, what are their motives? What is their plan? Are they faking alien abduction so they can abduct people? Perhaps. If so, why are they abducting people and why have they chosen this particular cover-up? Are they faking alien abduction so they can abduct people? Then again, perhaps not. Maybe they have another motive. If so, what is it? And again, what is their plan? Why are they doing this? What are they going to do next? But there are geniune abductions Agreed. But by ETs? Maybe. maybe not. because people ahve travelled in spaceships and gone to other planets and brought back souvenirs. (1.) That's what they say. (2.) Even if they are telling the truth as they believe it , that in no way means that that's what actually happened. It only means that's what they believe. Neither person, theorist or ignorant, can tell without being a personal witness at the time if someone's abduction occurred. And even then . . . So if one person who hasn't personally been abducted, comments on another's experience then they actually know nothing about it. Agreed. But neither does the abductee, not for sure. 1 They have read too many books including disinfo so can't decide truth. One cannot read too many books. One can, however, read the wrong books, or misunderstand the right ones. 2.They have had drugs and think reality can't be deciphered properly because they can't remember what it is like to have a clear mind anymore, so think everyone else is as confused. Given the intelligence community's long standing predilection for the surreptitiously administering drugs (See: http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/18.html and http://www.sfbg.com/nessie/17.html) one can never be entirely certain that what one is experiencing now is reality or the result of being drugged and not told about it. 3.They have no firm beliefs and can't perceive another's point of view. I'm unsure how these thing connect. Please elaborate. 4.They see a scientific explanation for everything and are not able to decipher the complexity of other dimensions and a person's direct experience of them. Everything has a scientific explanation and no one can completely decipher the complexity of any direct experience, their own or anybody's, any experience. 5. They are unable to see beyond themselves to be objective about Earth and its manifold off planet guided expressions of evolution to perfection. Everything is perfect. It might not be a perfect whatever you want it to be but it's definitely a perfect whatever it is. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: This should silence any debunker or doubter. Look, I don't doubt, and am not trying to debunk, UFOs. I've seen two of them, one fairly close. They exist. What I'm questioning is their ET origin. Where is the forensic evidence of an ET origin for UFOs? A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
Look, I don't doubt, and am not trying to debunk, UFOs. I've seen two of them, one fairly close. They exist. What I'm questioning is their ET origin. Where is the forensic evidence of an ET origin for UFOs? never heard of the DOGON TRIBE - its one of the passe basics or the research done on the betty hill star maps - impossible to fake andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
All of which offer excellent (if anecdotal) evidence for the EXISTENCE OF UFO'S, not one bit of evidence that they are of extraterrestrial origin or that there are any aliens aboard them. I thought we could all agree that UFO's are a real phenomenon. At least I don't need convincing that UFO's are a fact, what I want to know is EHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT ANY UFO IS OF ALIEN ORIGIN, OR PILOTED BY ALIENS FROM SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN EARTH. On Wed, 31 May 2000, DIG alfred webre wrote: We thank learnerone for making these URL-references available. Let the Games begin! Alfred = This should silence any debunker or doubter. http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/ufo31.pdf 26-pg report includes Air Force pilots' accounts of "zig zagging flight patterns," "hovering objects," "fighters scrambled," etc. from 1955. http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/ufo14.pdf handwritten account of 14-minute sighting of "bluish-green concentric rings of light" written by "COMNAVSECGRU" in 1979. Many more excellent docs from http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo.html index page of 40+ declassified intelligence reports from NSA. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
First of all the Dogon Tribe's star origin and stellar mythology may, indeed, have been faked. But let us set that aside for a minute and presume that their mythology is correct how does that offer proof that any UFO's that are seen are extraterrestrial craft being piloted by aliens from beyond Earth? Even if the Dogon record actual alien visitation, which I doubt, it does nothing to support the same today. On Wed, 31 May 2000, Andrew Hennessey wrote: Look, I don't doubt, and am not trying to debunk, UFOs. I've seen two of them, one fairly close. They exist. What I'm questioning is their ET origin. Where is the forensic evidence of an ET origin for UFOs? never heard of the DOGON TRIBE - its one of the passe basics or the research done on the betty hill star maps - impossible to fake andrew A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om "Welcome to the desert of the real." Morpheus, in The Matrix "My God it's full of stars!" Dave Bowman, in 2001: A Space Odyssey ___ Why pay when you don't have to? Get AltaVista Free Internet Access now! http://jump.altavista.com/freeaccess4.go ___ A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] UFO EVIDENCE: http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/ufo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: never heard of the DOGON TRIBE - its one of the passe basics or Not true. They could have easily heard about it from Europeans, or even South Africans travelling through Dogan territory. It was known to science for decades and decades before the story was collected and the Dogon are neither stupid nor isolated. the research done on the betty hill star maps - impossible to fake I don't know about the research on the Betty Hill star maps. Tell the story. I'll listen. A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html"Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED]/A http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF="http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/"ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
