[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
The Colonial Legacy - Myths and Popular Beliefs While few educated South Asians would deny that British Colonial rule was detrimental to the interests of the common people of the sub-continent - several harbor an illusion that the British weren't all bad. Didn't they, perhaps, educate us - build us modern cities, build us irrigation canals - protect our ancient monuments - etc. etc. And then, there are some who might even say that their record was actually superior to that of independent India's! Perhaps, it is time that the colonial record be retrieved from the archives and re- examined - so that those of us who weren't alive during the freedom movement can learn to distinguish between the myths and the reality. Literacy and Education Several Indians are deeply concerned about why literacy rates in India are still so low. So in the last year, I have been making a point of asking English-speaking Indians to guess what India's literacy rate in the colonial period might have been. These were Indians who went to school in the sixties and seventies (only two decades after independence) - and I was amazed to hear their fairly confident guesses. Most guessed the number to be between 30% and 40%. When I suggested that their guess was on the high side - they offered 25% to 35%. No one was prepared to believe that literacy in British India in 1911 was only 6%, in 1931 it was 8%, and by 1947 it had crawled to 11%! That fifty years of freedom had allowed the nation to quintuple it's literacy rate was something that almost seemed unfathomable to them. Perhaps - the British had concentrated on higher education ? But in 1935, only 4 in 10,000 were enrolled in universities or higher educational institutes. In a nation of then over 350 million people only 16,000 books (no circulation figures) were published in that year (i.e. 1 per 20,000). Urban Development It is undoubtedly true that the British built modern cities with modern conveniences for their administrative officers. But it should be noted that these were exclusive zones not intended for the natives to enjoy. Consider that in 1911, 69 per cent of Bombay's population lived in one-room tenements (as against 6 per cent in London in the same year). The 1931 census revealed that the figure had increased to 74 per cent - with one-third living more than 5 to a room. The same was true of Karachi and Ahmedabad. After the Second World War, 13 per cent of Bombay's population slept on the streets. As for sanitation, 10-15 tenements typically shared one water tap! Yet, in 1757 (the year of the Plassey defeat), Clive of the East India Company had observed of Murshidabad in Bengal: This city is as extensive, populous and rich as the city of London... (so quoted in the Indian Industrial Commission Report of 1916-18). Dacca was even more famous as a manufacturing town, it's muslin a source of many legends and it's weavers had an international reputation that was unmatched in the medieval world. But in 1840 it was reported by Sir Charles Trevelyan to a parliamentary enquiry that Dacca's population had fallen from 150,000 to 20,000. Montgomery Martin - an early historian of the British Empire observed that Surat and Murshidabad had suffered a similiar fate. (This phenomenon was to be replicated all over India - particularly in Awadh (modern U.P) and other areas that had offered the most heroic resistance to the British during the revolt of 1857.) The percentage of population dependant on agriculture and pastoral pursuits actually rose to 73% in 1921 from 61% in 1891. (Reliable figures for earlier periods are not available.) In 1854, Sir Arthur Cotton writing in Public Works in India noted: Public works have been almost entirely neglected throughout India... The motto hitherto has been: 'Do nothing, have nothing done, let nobody do anything. Adding that the Company was unconcerned if people died of famine, or if they lacked roads and water. Nothing can be more revealing than the remark by John Bright in the House of Commons on June 24, 1858, The single city of Manchester, in the supply of its inhabitants with the single article of water, has spent a larger sum of money than the East India Company has spent in the fourteen years from 1834 to 1848 in public works of every kind throughout the whole of its vast dominions. Irrigation and Agricultural Development There is another popular belief about British rule: 'The British modernized Indian agriculture by building canals'. But the actual record reveals a somewhat different story. The roads and tanks and canals, noted an observer in 1838 (G. Thompson, India and the Colonies, 1838), ''which Hindu or Mussulman Governments constructed for the service of the nations and the good of the country have been suffered to fall into dilapidation; and now the want of the means of irrigation causes famines. Montgomery Martin, in his standard work The
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [...] Many times a day I will juxtapose two complete opposites in my mind, the intellect will try for a resolution, going deeper and deeper, finally give up, bounce into the transcendent, back out again, and I'll break into a smile or small chuckle at this universal infinite joke... Interesting mental activity... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 14, 2005, at 2:08 PM, jyouells2000 wrote: It's odd. If Maharishi's so right-wing how come almost everyone connected with him in the West leans so far left? It's a strange thing. It is. It's just the paradox of Brahman, so stop worrying. And he just has a funny way of showing his compassion. All is well. Is there great difference between a Christian fundie school kid who quotes the bible, talks of the Big Bang and tells about Jesus and a MSAE kid who quotes scientific literature, talks about AGNI and unified field theory to sell you his idea from M.? Both are conditioned dogmas. Call it Pavlov's meditator. Thus Speaks One Who Judges From Beyond (R). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? Yes, better stated your way. I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Agreed. If you're looking for relative perfection in a realized master, good luck! For example in a residential Art of Living course I took about a year ago with SSRS in residence, I was bothered by his casual manner in talking about funny stories from his ashram and people throwing themselves at his feet. He wasn't making fun of them or anything but was talking about the difficulty in walking around and how much time it took to go from one end of his ashram to another. Very funny, very cute story. But I was amazed at part of my own reaction. I wanted him to be more serious and aloof and not have the reaction he did. Just some silly relative ideal of what a guru should be. My attachment, my problem, not his. Yes. Funny what a process that is- engaging with a guru, and coming to terms with who he or she is, vs who we want them to be. *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. Hey Paul, I mean Saul. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. And yet I suspect you'd have to admit that this is a subjective feeling. A polite way of saying mood making, perhaps? And/ or the inner consolidation/condensation of ones own projections of how the world (and gurus) should be? I mean if one thinks MMY or whoever is IT, THE ONE, won't the mind almost automatically create a sense of that experience when one sees them? Particularly if it is a rare event / (always a) special occasion? Did the skinboys and inner circle types who were around MMY constantly experience him as blazing brahman. Could the need to experience a teacher as blazing brahman justify the umpteen years poured into what now apear, at least in part as trivial and silly projects of his? Were they trivial and silly to those involved? DId the projects attained the desired goal? How do you know? Someone once said that the grandeur of the described experience around the teacher is inversely proportional to ones proximity. Except that according to Helena Olson, MMY's most favorite person in the clique of Americans hanging around the Master in 1959 was her Mother (Mother-in-law?) who didn't take him serioiusly at all and couldn't understand why everyone else did. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face-to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. You can only talk about what you experience, not another. True, but I think you can draw inferences from your own experience to other experiences. *Not* to challenge them for challenge's sake, but to understand that we all have the ability to *create* our own subjective experience out of desire for such an experience. If I know that about myself and my own experiences, and become comfortable with it, then I can infer it with regard to the experiences of others, and be comfort- able with theirs as well. And certainly don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. Amen. I think that my point is that no one will ever get *anybody*. Maharishi is no different than any other human being on the planet in that regard. --- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. And yet I suspect you'd have to admit that this is a subjective feeling. A polite way of saying mood making, perhaps? And/ or the inner consolidation/condensation of ones own projections of how the world (and gurus) should be? I mean if one thinks MMY or whoever is IT, THE ONE, won't the mind almost automatically create a sense of that experience when one sees them? Particularly if it is a rare event / (always a) special occasion? Absolutely. The rarer the event is, the more likely it is that the expected experience will occur. Did the skinboys and inner circle types who were around MMY constantly experience him as blazing brahman. Absolutely not. That's why most of them left. Each of us is free to decide whether they were right in their decision to leave or not. Could the need to experience a teacher as blazing brahman justify the umpteen years poured into what now apear, at least in part as trivial and silly projects of his? I think so. There is a strong tendency in all humans to justify what one has dedicated years to. This tendency often keeps people paying lip service to what they have dedicated years to *years* past the time when they no longer feel it deserves their dedication. Most of the people I've ever met who have walked away from a strong involvement with a spiritual tradition have said that they did so several years later than they should have. The realization that they no longer fit predated their ability to accept or act on that realization. Someone once said that the grandeur of the described experience around the teacher is inversely proportional to ones proximity. There *is* a proximity factor at work here. The aura of a teacher is usually stronger in his/her close proximity than it is far away. That is, until and unless one develops an inner connection with the teacher that transcends time and space. At that point, distance no longer matters. But there are a myriad of energies that swirl around a strong spiritual teacher. In my opinion, some of these energies have to do with enlightenment, with eternity itself. Other of the energies have to do with the finite teacher and his or her good points, and his or her lingering samskaras. One of the things that tends to happen when one is in close proximity to a strong teacher is that one is bombarded by both types of energies, and can have a hard time figuring out which is which. Thus people sometimes begin to mistake the strong energy of the lingering samskaras for the strong energy of enlightenment. Just an opinion, but one based on experience... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, Actually all of the questions I wrote: the inner consolidation/condensation of ones own projections of how the world (and gurus) should be; could the need to experience a teacher as blazing brahman justify the umpteen years poured into the trivial etc., are prompted from reviewing, questioning and speculating about my own experiences with saints. not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. Who said anything about any specific other's experience? It was a serious of questions about the general drawn from observation and speculation of my own experiences, the specific Exactly. And that was exactly the spirit in which I replied to the questions. The issue is not whether a specific experience is to be trusted as valid in any kind of objective sense, but whether *any* exper- ience can be trusted in any kind of objective sense. I have long been comfortable with the possibility that my subjective experiences in the realm of enlightenment might be illusory, as illusory as any other experience. And yet I trust them completely, because many of these experiences were more real than any other experience in my life. That said, I ask no one else in the universe to believe in their reality. They are my experiences and mine alone. I just use them as a springboard from which to ponder the nature of subjective experience itself, as I think anon was doing here. In other words, I don't think there is any need to get all protective of one's subjective experience. That's called attachment. The experiences were what they were, or were not. Nothing *anyone* else has to say about them is relevant. You can only talk about what you experience, not another. OK I will try to keep that in mind when such circumstances arise. I assume you will also. And certainly don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. Amen. Aren't you now guilty of what you just preached not to do? It appears valid for you to conclude that your mind is never going to get him. But it seems baseless for you to conclude that another mind, much less all minds, are incapbable of getting him, or of anything for that matter. Isn't all possibilities part of the credo of this group? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. The author of the following is Jim Flanegan not me! Yes. Funny what a process that is- engaging with a guru, and coming to terms with who he or she is, vs who we want them to be. *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. Hey Paul, I mean Saul. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. The author of the following is Jim Flanegan not me! --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. Nonsense...you've *always* got the right person. Everything you do, you do to yourself. - some scripture or another :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Interesting to see how casually 'sparaig' disparagues another without bothering to check his facts. I have experienced this clumsiness before when he misquoted from a book I wrote which he admitted he had never read. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Thank you Turq, I seem to remember a news report about one of ZZTOP shooting himself in the foot, literally. Maybe the scripture you quote is by Billy Gibbon. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. Nonsense...you've *always* got the right person. Everything you do, you do to yourself. - some scripture or another :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting to see how casually 'sparaig' disparagues another without bothering to check his facts. I have experienced this clumsiness before when he misquoted from a book I wrote which he admitted he had never read. Paul, with all due respect, I think you're being overly sensitive. I didn't get the feeling that sparaig had you in mind with either of these posts you just replied defensively to. He was just making what he felt was a clever quip. The clever quip *was* disparaging, and IMO a reflexive reaction to yet another something he chooses not to believe, but it wasn't really about you. If I'm not mistaken, both the Paul/Saul and Damascus quips are references to the story of Christ, not PaulPremanand. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Turq, I seem to remember a news report about one of ZZTOP shooting himself in the foot, literally. Maybe the scripture you quote is by Billy Gibbon. He was probably trying to twirl his six-shooter the same way the ZZTopsters twirl their guitars on stage. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. Nonsense...you've *always* got the right person. Everything you do, you do to yourself. - some scripture or another :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
From what I gather Paul/Saul distorted Jesus's teaching and presented the world with the 'religion of suffering' which should rightly be called Paulianity. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting to see how casually 'sparaig' disparagues another without bothering to check his facts. I have experienced this clumsiness before when he misquoted from a book I wrote which he admitted he had never read. Paul, with all due respect, I think you're being overly sensitive. I didn't get the feeling that sparaig had you in mind with either of these posts you just replied defensively to. He was just making what he felt was a clever quip. The clever quip *was* disparaging, and IMO a reflexive reaction to yet another something he chooses not to believe, but it wasn't really about you. If I'm not mistaken, both the Paul/Saul and Damascus quips are references to the story of Christ, not PaulPremanand. :-) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting to see how casually 'sparaig' disparagues another without bothering to check his facts. I have experienced this clumsiness before when he misquoted from a book I wrote which he admitted he had never read. What on earth makes you think he's disparaging *you*? As I understand him, the reference was to St. Paul of the Christian Scriptures (previously known as Saul) having a vision of the risen Christ at Damascus, as Jim had a vision of Guru Dev. I could be wrong, but I don't think it had anything to do with you. That the name is the same was coincidental. I don't believe you've ever said you had a vision of Guru Dev, have you? (And as I recalll, he never misquoted you, he misstated something from the book based on what he had heard elsewhere, and apologized when you pointed this out.) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Judy, Just a few off the cuff comments to your thoughtful reply. Regardless of your (our) judgement of Maharishi's state of consciousness, how the teaching is manifested still has to be evaluated critically. Does it acomplish it's purpose? This is part process of life. I'm not sure we can say what its purpose is in a way that would enable us to do a critical evaluation. How would you define it? You'll find the same internal consistency in many of the more proment Adviatic, Dzochen, Course in Miracles, etc. teachers. And many have the same type of character flaws we talk about here. Sure. But internal consistency is just one of the criteria I was using. Most of us agree that TM has inspired benificial unfoldment of consciousness. When we see or come into contact with Maharishi we get a clearer reflection/experience of OUR own Self (Blazing Brahman is non-dual, afterall) We (both us and Maharishi) still have to work it out in the relative, no matter what the perspective on where or who or from what state of consciousness the teaching comes from. Yes, well said. Without meditators there is no movement, no TMO. JohnY Sure, the purpose of the teaching is to unfold enlightenment for the individual. Simple, if there is no or limited access to the teaching how can that happen. Maharishi has planted that seed very widely. Why should it stop now? Is the TMO fulfilling it's purpose now? Very difficult to say. Will it do so in the future? There certainly isn't any clear indication of that. The TMO is and has been violently contracting on itself. Burning many carefully build bridges along the way. Slowly and simply teaching all these years would have worked better, in my opinion, with much less bullshit. It's a reasonable perspective, but it isn't exactly the basis for an objective measurement of whether MMY's teaching is fulfilling its purpose. There are lots of ways to interpret what MMY is doing with the TMO now, some of which suggest that it will ultimately facilitate that purpose more than going slowly and simply. I've proposed one such: MMY wants to contract the movement and burn its bridges so that it can be handed over to King Tony in a nice, neat, self- contained package of unquestioned loyalty once MMY dies, which will allow Tony to take firm control and implement his own plans and ideas without a lot of controversy (or at least without as much as there would have been otherwise). In other words, the contraction now will make expansion easier once King Tony takes over. I have *no* idea if that's correct; obviously we'll have to wait and see. We have no idea yet what Tony will be like as the head of the movement, whether he'll take it and run with it or get all bogged down in trying (and inevitably failing) to be a second Maharishi. But I don't see anything that would rule out that interpretation, at any rate. There's more than one way to skin a cat; plus which, Unfathomable is the course of action. Who can say what Nature has in mind? Yup, that's one idea that makes some sense. Even that could be done without fraud. Other family run (ordinary/traditional) businesses do it, and without being unfathomable. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said Ayatolla Maharishi Yea, but who's the ayatollah of rock n rolla. lurk Hey Lurk - I didn't write that. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yea, but who's the ayatollah of rock n rolla. lurk Hey Lurk - I didn't write that. JohnY Sorry. Will try to be more careful. lurk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. The author of the following is Jim Flanegan not me! Yes. Funny what a process that is- engaging with a guru, and coming to terms with who he or she is, vs who we want them to be. *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. Hey Paul, I mean Saul. Was commenting on the comment. Paul, originally known as Saul, met Jesus after his death, on the road to Damascus. Your name coincidentally is Paul, but I was commenting on Jim Flanegan's comment, regardless of how I mangled the quote attribution. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank you Turq, I seem to remember a news report about one of ZZTOP shooting himself in the foot, literally. Maybe the scripture you quote is by Billy Gibbon. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. Nonsense...you've *always* got the right person. Everything you do, you do to yourself. - some scripture or another :-) PErhaps I'm too subtle in my one-liners, because neither your NOR Unc got the reference, which I thought was overwhelmingly obvious. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting to see how casually 'sparaig' disparagues another without bothering to check his facts. I have experienced this clumsiness before when he misquoted from a book I wrote which he admitted he had never read. in this, I WAS responding to anonymousff, not to you. I was likening him to Saul, or Paul of Tarsus, who met Jesus on the Road to Damascus AFTER Jesus had already died... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting to see how casually 'sparaig' disparagues another without bothering to check his facts. I have experienced this clumsiness before when he misquoted from a book I wrote which he admitted he had never read. Paul, with all due respect, I think you're being overly sensitive. I didn't get the feeling that sparaig had you in mind with either of these posts you just replied defensively to. He was just making what he felt was a clever quip. The clever quip *was* disparaging, and IMO a reflexive reaction to yet another something he chooses not to believe, but it wasn't really about you. If I'm not mistaken, both the Paul/Saul and Damascus quips are references to the story of Christ, not PaulPremanand. :-) So you DID get it, but rather than clarify the confusion originally, you had to put in a joke at my expense. And you're right, I don't believe in the meeting of long-dead people the way Saul/Paul of Tarsus and Jim describe. That doesn't mean that I'm right and they are wrong, but it DOES point out that things can get very interesting (re: Christian CHurch, TMO) when people assign post-death meetings the same significance that pre-death meetings have. The same might be said (not sure) of MMY and the TMO itself since MMY claims to have had some kind of direct inspiration from his guru to start the TMO, apparently AFTER Guru Dev died. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Somewhere near Damascus, I think... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before you desparaige someone, check you got the right person. The author of the following is Jim Flanegan not me! Yes. Funny what a process that is- engaging with a guru, and coming to terms with who he or she is, vs who we want them to be. *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. Hey Paul, I mean Saul. Was commenting on the comment. Paul, originally known as Saul, met Jesus after his death, on the road to Damascus. Your name coincidentally is Paul, but I was commenting on Jim Flanegan's comment, regardless of how I mangled the quote attribution. I don't know that story about Jesus, though I would recommend Kahlil Gibran's excellent book on Jesus- really brings him alive. Speaking of death, Guru Dev was anything but dead when I met him! Just elsewhere... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From what I gather Paul/Saul distorted Jesus's teaching and presented the world with the 'religion of suffering' which should rightly be called Paulianity. That's part of what I was implying by referring to Jim's experience that way. I don't KNOW that Jim's experience is invalid or distorting, but given a choice between insights gained due to pre- death experiences with someone and insights gained due to post-death experiences, I'd go with the former. This may be MY problem and not Jim's or Paul/Saul of Tarsus' but its what I believe. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From what I gather Paul/Saul distorted Jesus's teaching and presented the world with the 'religion of suffering' which should rightly be called Paulianity. That's part of what I was implying by referring to Jim's experience that way. I don't KNOW that Jim's experience is invalid or distorting, but given a choice between insights gained due to pre- death experiences with someone and insights gained due to post- death experiences, I'd go with the former. This may be MY problem and not Jim's or Paul/Saul of Tarsus' but its what I believe. Just to be absolutely clear, Lawson, I had an experience of Brahmananda Saraswati, after he left this earth. I shared it as accurately as I could. There was no attempt, whatsoever, on my part to impart Guru Dev's teaching, or my own for that matter. If you are more comfortable seeing it as a dream, hallucination, or story, that is your choice, just as sharing a special event in my life here was my choice. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Was commenting on the comment. Paul, originally known as Saul, met Jesus after his death, on the road to Damascus. Your name coincidentally is Paul, but I was commenting on Jim Flanegan's comment, regardless of how I mangled the quote attribution. I don't know that story about Jesus Acts 22:6-21. Paul is on a mission as a hired gun for the High Priest to arrest Jewish Christians when the vision of Christ--whom he had never met in life-- occurs and he becomes a convert. Pretty dramatic episode, actually, at least as Paul tells it. Text here: http://tinyurl.com/dkbv2 (Scroll down; a third-person account earlier in Acts comes first.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received an email relating to a press conference in which MMY allegedly made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. Does anyone know of such a conference and do they have a transcript? Follows an extract of the email received:- 'It might interest you to know that during the summer of 2004 I was watching a free live transmission of a Maharishi Press conference from Holland to India. I had been watching these free for a limited time Maharishi press conferences for about the whole summer. In each session, John Hagelin of MUM was fielding questions from the press for Maharishi. Maharishi would then give a thorough answer and/or message that was very pleasing to hear. However, one day as I was watching a special broadcast of the Maharishi speaking to India, he absolutely lost it (so to speak) and began what amounted to be a complete 30-45 minute tyrannical speech about how India is still being kept down by its Britisher foreigners and their religion of suffering-Christianity. I was stunned when he started advocating that Indians begin to angrily and forcibly directly threaten Britishers and Christians (namely women) by explaining that if they didn't leave India immediately their, Husbands and children's lives would be in great danger. And that was only one small quote. I watched in disbelief as he threw all caution to the wind and started chastising the Indian Press and basically all of India for copying the West and becoming less Spiritual. He was out of control to tell you the truth. I am not exaggerating at all either. He made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. Literally trying to incite violence? I was stunned at how much disrespect and open contempt he was displaying towards Britishers and westerners in general. It was unthinkable, the things that he was saying. He was openly instructing others to throw the bloody Britishers out or they will pay a heavy price for staying, mainly he explained because of British involvement in the War in Iraq and the fact that these democratically run foreign countries were dragging the spirituality of India and her people down. Also he kept on repeating get away from democracy get away from democracy.' I have not heard that special conference. But what he says about Brithishers and Democracy has been repeated over and over again through the last years. I have heard him use a language that is far from spiritual and that is one of the reasons that I stopped to listen to his speaches. He is not in balance. Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received an email relating to a press conference in which MMY allegedly made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. Does anyone know of such a conference and do they have a transcript? Follows an extract of the email received:- 'It might interest you to know that during the summer of 2004 I was watching a free live transmission of a Maharishi Press conference from Holland to India. I had been watching these free for a limited time Maharishi press conferences for about the whole summer. In each session, John Hagelin of MUM was fielding questions from the press for Maharishi. Maharishi would then give a thorough answer and/or message that was very pleasing to hear. However, one day as I was watching a special broadcast of the Maharishi speaking to India, he absolutely lost it (so to speak) and began what amounted to be a complete 30-45 minute tyrannical speech about how India is still being kept down by its Britisher foreigners and their religion of suffering-Christianity. I was stunned when he started advocating that Indians begin to angrily and forcibly directly threaten Britishers and Christians (namely women) by explaining that if they didn't leave India immediately their, Husbands and children's lives would be in great danger. And that was only one small quote. I watched in disbelief as he threw all caution to the wind and started chastising the Indian Press and basically all of India for copying the West and becoming less Spiritual. He was out of control to tell you the truth. I am not exaggerating at all either. He made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. Literally trying to incite violence? I was stunned at how much disrespect and open contempt he was displaying towards Britishers and westerners in general. It was unthinkable, the things that he was saying. He was openly instructing others to throw the bloody Britishers out or they will pay a heavy price for staying, mainly he explained because of British involvement in the War in Iraq and the fact that these democratically run foreign countries were dragging the spirituality of India and her people down. Also he kept on repeating get away from democracy get away from democracy.' Is this how you conduct research for your published books? To fish for corroboration by broadcasting the above without requiring your source to be specific regarding date of speech, or week, or month, even, is grossly irresponsible, and certainly lowers your credibility as a biographical author. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
On Dec 14, 2005, at 6:37 AM, Premanand Paul Mason wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received an email relating to a press conference in which MMY allegedly made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. Does anyone know of such a conference and do they have a transcript? The ones I've watched seem edited now. Maybe that's why? Vaj, your comment (and recent events here on FFL) have left me thinking about a fine film I saw recently, one that IMO has profound implications in many areas of life, including the spiritual search and one's own spiritual sadhana. The film is called The Final Cut, and it stars Robin Williams (brilliant! in one of his subdued, introverted roles) as a cutter. In this slightly future story, parents have the option of fit- ting their kids with a Zoe chip, a bio-organic device that records everything they see and do from the moment of birth to the moment of their deaths. Then, when the wearer of the Zoe chip dies, his or her loved ones can ask a cutter to make a Rememory film of the high- lights of the person's life. And therein lies the problem -- the idea of highlights, of the necessity to EDIT a person's life to make it more palatable to the loved ones who want to view por- tions of it. Robin's character is the best at what he does, and he's willing to take on *anybody's* life and edit it to remove the offending parts. He thinks of himself as a sin eater, as in the old (I think) Jewish tradition. I think we see this editing of life all the time. All around us, but especially in spiritual traditions. There is a tendency for people to compartmentalize their lives, and show only one small aspect of themselves to the people they care about, while revealing other, less savory aspects of themselves to those that they *don't* care about. You need go no further than recent schizo- phrenic remarks made here on FFL to understand what I'm talking about. How would that person *feel* if people he cared about knew what he did and what he said to amuse himself at other people's expense. But he feels safe doing it, because he doesn't believe they'll find out. They don't read FFL. Similarly, there is a *huge* tendency in spiritual traditions to edit the lives of their founders. If the teacher does or says something messy, there are teams of people whose job it is to edit it out, to make it appear as if the messy thing never happened. This certainly happens with video- and audiotape; I have seen various generations of the same tape come and go, the later generations hugely different from the original as TBs labor to remove all the parts that could be considered messy. And what's even worse is the self editing that the TBs sometimes perform on *themselves*. They *refuse* to accept the veracity of stories that seem messy, that seem contradictory to the way that they'd like to think of their teacher. I think this is a Big Spiritual Mistake. I think that anyone's life is really about the raw footage of that life -- the clean parts *and* the messy parts. And I think that this is even more true when dealing with enlightenment. The enlightened *aren't* all squeaky clean. They fart and shit like other people, and as far as I can tell they make messy mistakes like other people. I believe that editing their lives to make it appear as they don't is a disservice to the enlightened themselves, and to people who seek enlightenment and hope to find it in their example. I don't know whether the press conferences in ques- tion are being edited to remove the messy parts, but it is *completely* consistent with TM movement history that they are. I have certainly seen the edits done on other tapes and books over the years. And I'm just rappin' about this because I think it's a mistake, a disservice to the person being edited, and to the seekers who are forced to view an edited version of life. IMO, real life is always better. Just my opinion, Unc Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I think this is a Big Spiritual Mistake. I think that anyone's life is really about the raw footage of that life -- the clean parts *and* the messy parts. And I think that this is even more true when dealing with enlightenment. The enlightened *aren't* all squeaky clean. They fart and shit like other people, and as far as I can tell they make messy mistakes like other people. I believe that editing their lives to make it appear as they don't is a disservice to the enlightened themselves, and to people who seek enlightenment and hope to find it in their example. I don't know whether the press conferences in ques- tion are being edited to remove the messy parts, but it is *completely* consistent with TM movement history that they are. I have certainly seen the edits done on other tapes and books over the years. And I'm just rappin' about this because I think it's a mistake, a disservice to the person being edited, and to the seekers who are forced to view an edited version of life. IMO, real life is always better. Just my opinion, Unc Excellent post. When I did video production in Ffld I used to interact on a regular basis with MIU's video production department. On a near regular basis I would see raw MMY footage being edited to remove sections that did not adhere to top administrators' ideal of what MMY should say. Usually international did this but every once in a while MIU video would edit some of these tapes. I also saw them do this on a Triguna tape where the edit completely reversed his intended meaning. The person editing the tape showed me the raw footage and the finished product. He told me that he was directly told by someone in the MIU administration to edit particular parts of the tape. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I think this is a Big Spiritual Mistake. I think that anyone's life is really about the raw footage of that life -- the clean parts *and* the messy parts. And I think that this is even more true when dealing with enlightenment. The enlightened *aren't* all squeaky clean. They fart and shit like other people, and as far as I can tell they make messy mistakes like other people. I believe that editing their lives to make it appear as they don't is a disservice to the enlightened themselves, and to people who seek enlightenment and hope to find it in their example. I don't know whether the press conferences in ques- tion are being edited to remove the messy parts, but it is *completely* consistent with TM movement history that they are. I have certainly seen the edits done on other tapes and books over the years. And I'm just rappin' about this because I think it's a mistake, a disservice to the person being edited, and to the seekers who are forced to view an edited version of life. IMO, real life is always better. Just my opinion, Unc Excellent post. When I did video production in Ffld I used to interact on a regular basis with MIU's video production department. On a near regular basis I would see raw MMY footage being edited to remove sections that did not adhere to top administrators' ideal of what MMY should say. Usually international did this but every once in a while MIU video would edit some of these tapes. I also saw them do this on a Triguna tape where the edit completely reversed his intended meaning. The person editing the tape showed me the raw footage and the finished product. He told me that he was directly told by someone in the MIU administration to edit particular parts of the tape. This is my experience too. What MMY say alive is very different from what is published from the TMO - either by video or press release. The heavy stuff is taken out. Ingegerd Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM --- -~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
on 12/14/05 7:36 AM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Snip I think this is a Big Spiritual Mistake. I think that anyone's life is really about the raw footage of that life -- the clean parts *and* the messy parts. And I think that this is even more true when dealing with enlightenment. The enlightened *aren't* all squeaky clean. They fart and shit like other people, and as far as I can tell they make messy mistakes like other people. I believe that editing their lives to make it appear as they don't is a disservice to the enlightened themselves, and to people who seek enlightenment and hope to find it in their example. Your post reminds me of why Oprah Winfrey is such a spiritual person. My wife has been watching her 6-DVD 20th Anniversary special - highlights of her past 20 years. Oprah's heart is wide open. She feels others' pain as her own. And she is brutally honest with herself in front of 20 million people, sometimes appearing without makeup, talking about her weight problems, etc. Very inspiring lady. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
There are 150 million Muslims in india.!! Does Maharishi wants to throw them out too.?? Maharishi also seems to hate the German efficiency. Hecriticised it a couple of times in his speeches.OriginalMessage- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:27:47 EST Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] The British in IndiaI said Ayatolla Maharishi , not Ghengis Maharishi! LOL! my point being that he sounds more like any other fundamentalist from any other religion. Maybe a little more Islamic like with his throw out the Christians by force sentiment. But you are right , it's like he is calling in air strikes on his own position. Only thing is with such speak he only damages his own image, which I suppose could be a false image in some peoples eyes. Yahoo! Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Of course whether he has or hasn't is still one's individual take; it's just that the take shouldn't be based, it seems to me, on the perceived distance of the expression from what they would consider relative perfection. So what should it be based on?? I assume realized people and nonrealized people have different ways of evaluating MMY's state of consciousness. From my unrealized perspective, it's a combination of a gut hunch, and my awe at the depth, comprehensiveness, and internal consistency of his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness (including its implementation in the TM technique), as well as the teaching'sextraordinary explanatory value. It just doesn't seem possible to me that a person, no matter how brilliant their mind, could come up with such a teaching purely on an intellectual basis. It has to be coming from some basis in higher intuitive knowledge (or Knowledge, to distinguish it from intellectual knowledge). Of course, that's still based on a sense of how close MMY's expression comes to my idea of relative perfection, which is what I just said you shouldn't do. Now I'm trying to figure out on what basis I think evaluating his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness is a more appropriate criterion on which to have an opinion of his realization, versus evaluating the sensibleness of his political and social pronouncements and what he's been doing with the TMO. Help me out here. They're both measuring what MMY expresses against a personal idea of relative perfection. Why should choosing one *type* of expression over another make a difference? Or are both approaches essentially absurd? Obviously I've gone off on something of a tangent here... The value of our interaction with him has nothing to do with the surface of this relationship. This surface always varies from guru to guru and is quite irrelevent to the transcendent value of the relationship. MMY doesn't give a damn about your personality. It is utterly irrelevent to your Realization. --- Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received an email relating to a press conference in which MMY allegedly made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
There is no question that MMY disparages Britain, the issue has already provoked much discussion on FFL. Since he has broadcast anti-British propaganda, it would be grossly irresponsible and incredible if this information were suppressed. It would be interesting to know the exact wording of his transmissions to those in India. Is this how you conduct research for your published books? To fish for corroboration by broadcasting the above without requiring your source to be specific regarding date of speech, or week, or month, even, is grossly irresponsible, and certainly lowers your credibility as a biographical author. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no question that MMY disparages Britain, the issue has already provoked much discussion on FFL. Since he has broadcast anti- British propaganda, it would be grossly irresponsible and incredible if this information were suppressed. It would be interesting to know the exact wording of his transmissions to those in India. Is this how you conduct research for your published books? To fish for corroboration by broadcasting the above without requiring your source to be specific regarding date of speech, or week, or month, even, is grossly irresponsible, and certainly lowers your credibility as a biographical author. So, if MMY lost it and later decided he had said too much in public, its not his perogative to edit the remarks that he doesn't want remembered? And of course, since we don't have access to the raw footage, we don't even know if these remarks were actually said in the first place... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
On Dec 14, 2005, at 10:59 AM, authfriend wrote:as well as the teaching'sextraordinary explanatory value. There's a Freudian slip if ever I saw one! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Of course whether he has or hasn't is still one's individual take; it's just that the take shouldn't be based, it seems to me, on the perceived distance of the expression from what they would consider relative perfection. snip Brilliant posts Judy, and Peter! ...we're back to 'the meaty stuff'... I have watched my own evolution of my perceptions of Maharishi's expressions, and what has happened is I kept trying to have an opinion about him, where he was headed, what his initiatives mean, why the people around him do what they do, and despite my best intentions, I am now in a 'watching what comes next, fascinated' mode. Maharishi has managed to transcend everything I have ever felt or thought about him, and now my experience is that of watching Shiva incarnate. However, lest you think, 'aha, Jim is making an opinion of Maharishi again...', this is really just a way to express my current perception. As we might imagine, Shiva incarnating has as much to do with the Infinite as He does with discrete actions. I also want to make the strong point that the only way I am now able to just be with Maharishi's actions is by previously attending to all of my impressions of him, and watching them dissolve, one by one by one. Is this a less certain way of watching Maharishi? Yes. Because there is no reserved parking space for me anymore, with regard to my judgement of him. He is what he is, whatever that is. Kind of like watching a tree grow from a sapling and trying to predict exactly what it will look like as it grows, which is impossible, because it continues to change. How do we judge the sky? Is it Hurricane Katrina, or a sunny day at the beach? Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? Yes, better stated your way. I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Agreed. If you're looking for relative perfection in a realized master, good luck! For example in a residential Art of Living course I took about a year ago with SSRS in residence, I was bothered by his casual manner in talking about funny stories from his ashram and people throwing themselves at his feet. He wasn't making fun of them or anything but was talking about the difficulty in walking around and how much time it took to go from one end of his ashram to another. Very funny, very cute story. But I was amazed at part of my own reaction. I wanted him to be more serious and aloof and not have the reaction he did. Just some silly relative ideal of what a guru should be. My attachment, my problem, not his. Of course whether he has or hasn't is still one's individual take; it's just that the take shouldn't be based, it seems to me, on the perceived distance of the expression from what they would consider relative perfection. The first time I saw MMY in 1972 my mind blew wide open and left absolutely no doubts about his Realized status. And in every ensuing contact with him over the years this has happened over and over again with the experience getting deeper and deeper everytime. So what should it be based on?? I assume realized people and nonrealized people have different ways of evaluating MMY's state of consciousness. Your own direct experience...only! From my unrealized perspective, it's a combination of a gut hunch, and my awe at the depth, comprehensiveness, and internal consistency of his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness (including its implementation in the TM technique), as well as the teaching'sextraordinary explanatory value. Right, you find great value in his teachings. It just doesn't seem possible to me that a person, no matter how brilliant their mind, could come up with such a teaching purely on an intellectual basis. It has to be coming from some basis in higher intuitive knowledge (or Knowledge, to distinguish it from intellectual knowledge). Ageed! Of course, that's still based on a sense of how close MMY's expression comes to my idea of relative perfection, which is what I just said you shouldn't do. I don't think we can ever, to a complete degree, get away from this. In fact, it perhaps is a foolish spiritual ideal. Now I'm trying to figure out on what basis I think evaluating his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness is a more appropriate criterion on which to have an opinion of his realization, versus evaluating the sensibleness of his political and social pronouncements and what he's been doing with the TMO. Help me out here. They're both measuring what MMY expresses against a personal idea of relative perfection. Why should choosing one *type* of expression over another make a difference? Or are both approaches essentially absurd? Obviously I've gone off on something of a tangent here... Yeah, but a good tangent I think, ultimately, the value of a guru/master is in him/her functioning as a catalyst for one's own realization. This is appreciated by people as their experiences with the body of techniques offered, the intellectual knowledge, and the transcendent darshan experiences with the master. The value of our interaction with him has nothing to do with the surface of this relationship. This surface always varies from guru to guru and is quite irrelevent to the transcendent value of the relationship. MMY doesn't give a damn about your personality. It is utterly irrelevent to your Realization. --- Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received an email relating to a press conference in which MMY allegedly made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. snip
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. Ha Tomorrow night meditate under the full moon for a few hours and watch that cosmic dance unfold in your awareness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. And yet I suspect you'd have to admit that this is a subjective feeling. I spent a lot of time around Maharishi as well, and never felt anything from him that I would attribute to enlightenment, whereas I have with other people. Go figure. I think the bottom line may be that if we could react to everyone we meet (including ourselves) by cutting them the same slack we give to those we consider enlightened, the world might be a better place. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
On Dec 14, 2005, at 1:01 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:And yet I suspect you'd have to admit that this is a subjective feeling. I spent a lot of time around Maharishi as well, and never felt anything from him that I would attribute to enlightenment, whereas I have with other people. Go figure. I think the bottom line may be that if we could react to everyone we meet (including ourselves) by cutting them the same slack we give to those we consider enlightened, the world might be a better place. :-) In the tradition I practice in, it is considered one of the aspects of the manifestations of staying in the state of unity to be able to see others in their enlightened forms. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Along the lines of 'delightful confusion', the literally funny thing is (and I think you've mentioned this before Tom also...), is that whenever the intellect tries to make sense of the paradox that is Brahman, all that results is this little percolation of bliss. Many times a day I will juxtapose two complete opposites in my mind, the intellect will try for a resolution, going deeper and deeper, finally give up, bounce into the transcendent, back out again, and I'll break into a smile or small chuckle at this universal infinite joke... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T That's what you don't think! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 14, 2005, at 10:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said Ayatolla Maharishi , not Ghengis Maharishi! LOL! my point being that he sounds more like any other fundamentalist from any other religion. Maybe a little more Islamic like with his throw out the Christians by force sentiment. But you are right , it's like he is calling in air strikes on his own position. Only thing is with such speak he only damages his own image, which I suppose could be a false image in some peoples eyes. The parallels are striking. What is Maharishi Vedic Science but Maharishi Creation Science--Creation Science with a different mask. The Christian Creation Science adherents will sometime point out the similarity to the Big Bang and Genesis. For The Mahesh Creation Science people it's the first word of the Rig Veda Agni as Hindu Quantum Cosmology. Similarly the first word of Genesis, Bereshith, is said to show the sequential unfolding of Creation. How different is Natural Law and it's caste system than a right-wing theocracy in this country which seeks to legalize millions of illegal aliens to create a new slave class for their republican corporate slave-mongers? Both are a right-wing political phenomena wedded with religion. It's odd. If Maharishi's so right-wing how come almost everyone connected with him in the West leans so far left? It's a strange thing. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Dec 14, 2005, at 10:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I said Ayatolla Maharishi , not Ghengis Maharishi! LOL! my point > > being that he sounds more like any other fundamentalist from any > > other religion. Maybe a little more Islamic like with his throw out > > the Christians by force sentiment. But you are right , it's like he > > is calling in air strikes on his own position. Only thing is with > > such speak he only damages his own image, which I suppose could be > > a false image in some peoples eyes. > > The parallels are striking. What is Maharishi Vedic Science but > Maharishi Creation Science--Creation Science with a different mask. But the big question is...do they have Think Draw? :) Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. Ha Yeah! Tomorrow night meditate under the full moon for a few hours For a few *hours*?? No can do my friend- full moons already exert a very powerful influence on me, very much like flooring the accelerator, so just a glance will be enough. Often times when the moon is full, the world begins to turn absolutely transparent, and unless exhausted, sleep eludes me. and watch that cosmic dance unfold in your awareness. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM --- -~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
On Dec 14, 2005, at 2:08 PM, jyouells2000 wrote:It's odd. If Maharishi's so right-wing how come almost everyone connected with him in the West leans so far left? It's a strange thing. It is. It's just the paradox of Brahman, so stop worrying. And he just has a funny way of showing his compassion. All is well.Is there great difference between a Christian fundie school kid who quotes the bible, talks of the Big Bang and tells about Jesus and a MSAE kid who quotes scientific literature, talks about AGNI and unified field theory to sell you his idea from M.? Both are conditioned dogmas. Call it Pavlov's meditator. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? Yes, better stated your way. I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Agreed. If you're looking for relative perfection in a realized master, good luck! For example in a residential Art of Living course I took about a year ago with SSRS in residence, I was bothered by his casual manner in talking about funny stories from his ashram and people throwing themselves at his feet. He wasn't making fun of them or anything but was talking about the difficulty in walking around and how much time it took to go from one end of his ashram to another. Very funny, very cute story. But I was amazed at part of my own reaction. I wanted him to be more serious and aloof and not have the reaction he did. Just some silly relative ideal of what a guru should be. My attachment, my problem, not his. Yes. Funny what a process that is- engaging with a guru, and coming to terms with who he or she is, vs who we want them to be. *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. Of course whether he has or hasn't is still one's individual take; it's just that the take shouldn't be based, it seems to me, on the perceived distance of the expression from what they would consider relative perfection. The first time I saw MMY in 1972 my mind blew wide open and left absolutely no doubts about his Realized status. And in every ensuing contact with him over the years this has happened over and over again with the experience getting deeper and deeper everytime. So what should it be based on?? I assume realized people and nonrealized people have different ways of evaluating MMY's state of consciousness. Your own direct experience...only! From my unrealized perspective, it's a combination of a gut hunch, and my awe at the depth, comprehensiveness, and internal consistency of his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness (including its implementation in the TM technique), as well as the teaching'sextraordinary explanatory value. Right, you find great value in his teachings. It just doesn't seem possible to me that a person, no matter how brilliant their mind, could come up with such a teaching purely on an intellectual basis. It has to be coming from some basis in higher intuitive knowledge (or Knowledge, to distinguish it from intellectual knowledge). Ageed! Of course, that's still based on a sense of how close MMY's expression comes to my idea of relative perfection, which is what I just said you shouldn't do. I don't think we can ever, to a complete degree, get away from this. In fact, it perhaps is a foolish spiritual ideal. Now I'm trying to figure out on what basis I think evaluating his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness is a more appropriate criterion on which to have an opinion of his realization, versus evaluating the sensibleness of his political and social pronouncements and what he's been doing with the TMO. Help me out here. They're both measuring what MMY expresses against a personal idea of relative perfection. Why should choosing one *type* of expression over another make a difference? Or are both approaches essentially absurd? Obviously I've gone off on something of a tangent here... Yeah, but a good tangent I think, ultimately, the value of a guru/master is in him/her functioning as a catalyst for one's own realization. This is
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face-to-face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Of course whether he has or hasn't is still one's individual take; it's just that the take shouldn't be based, it seems to me, on the perceived distance of the expression from what they would consider relative perfection. So what should it be based on?? I assume realized people and nonrealized people have different ways of evaluating MMY's state of consciousness. From my unrealized perspective, it's a combination of a gut hunch, and my awe at the depth, comprehensiveness, and internal consistency of his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness (including its implementation in the TM technique), as well as the teaching'sextraordinary explanatory value. It just doesn't seem possible to me that a person, no matter how brilliant their mind, could come up with such a teaching purely on an intellectual basis. It has to be coming from some basis in higher intuitive knowledge (or Knowledge, to distinguish it from intellectual knowledge). Of course, that's still based on a sense of how close MMY's expression comes to my idea of relative perfection, which is what I just said you shouldn't do. Now I'm trying to figure out on what basis I think evaluating his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness is a more appropriate criterion on which to have an opinion of his realization, versus evaluating the sensibleness of his political and social pronouncements and what he's been doing with the TMO. Help me out here. They're both measuring what MMY expresses against a personal idea of relative perfection. Why should choosing one *type* of expression over another make a difference? Or are both approaches essentially absurd? Obviously I've gone off on something of a tangent here... The value of our interaction with him has nothing to do with the surface of this relationship. This surface always varies from guru to guru and is quite irrelevent to the transcendent value of the relationship. MMY doesn't give a damn about your personality. It is utterly irrelevent to your Realization. --- Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received an email relating to a press conference in which MMY allegedly made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. snip Judy, Just a few off the cuff comments to your thoughtful reply. Regardless of your (our) judgement of Maharishi's state of consciousness, how the teaching is manifested still has to be evaluated critically. Does it acomplish it's purpose? This is part process of life. You'll find the same internal consistency in many of the more proment Adviatic, Dzochen, Course in Miracles, etc. teachers. And many have the same type of character flaws we talk about here. Most of us agree that TM has inspired benificial unfoldment of consciousness. When we see or come into contact with Maharishi we get a clearer reflection/experience of OUR own Self (Blazing Brahman is non-dual, afterall) We (both us and Maharishi) still have to work it out in the relative, no matter what the perspective on where or who or from what state of consciousness the teaching comes from. Without meditators there is no movement, no TMO. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master-/ disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Snake-oil salesmen, religions, cults, tyrants and even democratically- elected / appointed political leaders like I can't explain it pretty good why we kneaded to have done it, but like God told me to do it so I done it, I invaded Iraq revert to the same claim -- just trust my explanation even though I can't explain it rationally and you can never understand it: its 'a magic elexir, 'a miracle', 'god's will', 'what our founding fathers said was good for us', 'the unspoken mystery', 'the grand paradox'. How to differentiate I wonder? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? Yes, better stated your way. I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Agreed. If you're looking for relative perfection in a realized master, good luck! For example in a residential Art of Living course I took about a year ago with SSRS in residence, I was bothered by his casual manner in talking about funny stories from his ashram and people throwing themselves at his feet. He wasn't making fun of them or anything but was talking about the difficulty in walking around and how much time it took to go from one end of his ashram to another. Very funny, very cute story. But I was amazed at part of my own reaction. I wanted him to be more serious and aloof and not have the reaction he did. Just some silly relative ideal of what a guru should be. My attachment, my problem, not his. That's refreshing. It is rather funny after all. Especially for Westerners. That behavior is not really apart of our tradition. The couple of times that I have seen him, the vib was very good and it was interesting to see the birth and development of a major movement. Deja-vu all over again ;-) JohnY JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. And yet I suspect you'd have to admit that this is a subjective feeling. A polite way of saying mood making, perhaps? And/ or the inner consolidation/condensation of ones own projections of how the world (and gurus) should be? I mean if one thinks MMY or whoever is IT, THE ONE, won't the mind almost automatically create a sense of that experience when one sees them? Particularly if it is a rare event / (always a) special occasion? Did the skinboys and inner circle types who were around MMY constantly experience him as blazing brahman. Could the need to experience a teacher as blazing brahman justify the umpteen years poured into what now apear, at least in part as trivial and silly projects of his? Someone once said that the grandeur of the described experience around the teacher is inversely proportional to ones proximity. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face-to-face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face-to- face? It was when I lived near Washington DC, around March or April 1993. The experience lasted for about three days. Also had other contact with him, but this one lasted the longest. *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to-face? *Paradoxically* I never had the slightest inclination to be in Maharishi's physical presence. and *paradoxically* the only guru who lived up to my expectations when I met him face to face was Brahmananda Saraswati aka Guru Dev (who was the only one I ever met face-to-face...). The embodiment of gentleness, love, friendliness, compassion and an absolute pillar of resolve, tenacity, steadfastness, and no compromise. In his dreams? Believe what you want. I have not stated such a thing to convince anybody. On the other hand, I am not going to pretend it was some fantasy, or that I mention this for ego aggrandizement as many would understand it, or keep quiet about it because there are folks out there that desperately need a rational explanation. You've been meditating long enough, deal with it, however you like. It was what it was, and served as a strong catalyst for me. If you have any genuine questions, I'd be happy to answer them. To paraphrase what Barry Wright said earlier, is daily life any less of an enlightened and enlightening experience? This was just that- An experience during daily life- the fulfillment of a desire. So what? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master-/ disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Snake-oil salesmen, religions, cults, tyrants and even democratically- elected / appointed political leaders like I can't explain it pretty good why we kneaded to have done it, but like God told me to do it so I done it, I invaded Iraq revert to the same claim -- just trust my explanation even though I can't explain it rationally and you can never understand it: its 'a magic elexir, 'a miracle', 'god's will', 'what our founding fathers said was good for us', 'the unspoken mystery', 'the grand paradox'. How to differentiate I wonder? Intuition, ...plain...and...simple. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In his dreams? Believe what you want. I have not stated such a thing to convince anybody. On the other hand, I am not going to pretend it was some fantasy, or that I mention this for ego aggrandizement as many would understand it, or keep quiet about it because there are folks out there that desperately need a rational explanation. You've been meditating long enough, deal with it, however you like. Its funny, no one said anything about belief, or lack thereof, pretending, fantasies, desperately needing a rational explanation, or ego aggrandizement. Yet you jump immediately to defend yourself on those grounds. As in Hamlet, The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I thought the remark about dreams funny -- multi-leveled: sains often come in deams; field of dreams -- create the field and they (saints) will come; I have a dream -- a desire to be in the presence of saints; and yes the slightly disparaging one -- in his imagination -- somewhat declawed by its juxtapostion. All together, a funny (and tasty) sandwich of meanings, in my mind. To paraphrase what Barry Wright said earlier, is daily life any less of an enlightened and enlightening experience? Sounds deep. Perhaps too much for me. (As deep a Barry White's voice?) So what? So Hum? By the way, do you have a match sir? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In his dreams? Believe what you want. I have not stated such a thing to convince anybody. On the other hand, I am not going to pretend it was some fantasy, or that I mention this for ego aggrandizement as many would understand it, or keep quiet about it because there are folks out there that desperately need a rational explanation. You've been meditating long enough, deal with it, however you like. Its funny, no one said anything about belief, or lack thereof, pretending, fantasies, desperately needing a rational explanation, or ego aggrandizement. Yet you jump immediately to defend yourself on those grounds. As in Hamlet, The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I thought the remark about dreams funny -- multi-leveled: sains often come in deams; field of dreams -- create the field and they (saints) will come; I have a dream -- a desire to be in the presence of saints; and yes the slightly disparaging one -- in his imagination -- somewhat declawed by its juxtapostion. All together, a funny (and tasty) sandwich of meanings, in my mind. To paraphrase what Barry Wright said earlier, is daily life any less of an enlightened and enlightening experience? Sounds deep. Perhaps too much for me. (As deep a Barry White's voice?) So what? So Hum? By the way, do you have a match sir? Akasha, please go practice your cynicism and rationalizations elsewhere. Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
In a message dated 12/14/05 11:00:19 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: teaching'sextraordinary explanatory value. There's a Freudian slip if ever I saw one! O caught that one also LOL! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. And yet I suspect you'd have to admit that this is a subjective feeling. A polite way of saying mood making, perhaps? And/ or the inner consolidation/condensation of ones own projections of how the world (and gurus) should be? I mean if one thinks MMY or whoever is IT, THE ONE, won't the mind almost automatically create a sense of that experience when one sees them? Particularly if it is a rare event / (always a) special occasion? Absolutely. The rarer the event is, the more likely it is that the expected experience will occur. Did the skinboys and inner circle types who were around MMY constantly experience him as blazing brahman. Absolutely not. That's why most of them left. Each of us is free to decide whether they were right in their decision to leave or not. Could the need to experience a teacher as blazing brahman justify the umpteen years poured into what now apear, at least in part as trivial and silly projects of his? I think so. There is a strong tendency in all humans to justify what one has dedicated years to. This tendency often keeps people paying lip service to what they have dedicated years to *years* past the time when they no longer feel it deserves their dedication. Most of the people I've ever met who have walked away from a strong involvement with a spiritual tradition have said that they did so several years later than they should have. The realization that they no longer fit predated their ability to accept or act on that realization. Someone once said that the grandeur of the described experience around the teacher is inversely proportional to ones proximity. There *is* a proximity factor at work here. The aura of a teacher is usually stronger in his/her close proximity than it is far away. That is, until and unless one develops an inner connection with the teacher that transcends time and space. At that point, distance no longer matters. But there are a myriad of energies that swirl around a strong spiritual teacher. In my opinion, some of these energies have to do with enlightenment, with eternity itself. Other of the energies have to do with the finite teacher and his or her good points, and his or her lingering samskaras. One of the things that tends to happen when one is in close proximity to a strong teacher is that one is bombarded by both types of energies, and can have a hard time figuring out which is which. Thus people sometimes begin to mistake the strong energy of the lingering samskaras for the strong energy of enlightenment. Just an opinion, but one based on experience... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
On Dec 14, 2005, at 3:46 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Premanand Paul Mason" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face-to- face? It was when I lived near Washington DC, around March or April 1993. The experience lasted for about three days. Also had other contact with him, but this one lasted the longest. Were you the person who saw him at the rock concert and everyone was hurling? (seriously-- that was reported here once). To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
On Dec 14, 2005, at 3:55 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:Believe what you want. I have not stated such a thing to convince anybody. On the other hand, I am not going to pretend it was some fantasy, or that I mention this for ego aggrandizement as many would understand it, or keep quiet about it because there are folks out there that desperately need a rational explanation. You've been meditating long enough, deal with it, however you like. Were you able to touch him? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Comment/Question below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **SNIP** Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha **SNIP TO END** Jim, if you don't mind sharing, is there any details regarding your interaction(s) with Guru Dev that you can relate? Thanks, Marek Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 14, 2005, at 3:46 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please, when and where did you meet Brahmananda Saraswati face- to- face? It was when I lived near Washington DC, around March or April 1993. The experience lasted for about three days. Also had other contact with him, but this one lasted the longest. Were you the person who saw him at the rock concert and everyone was hurling? (seriously-- that was reported here once). Ha Ha! No, though if that person is reading this, I'd be interested in any details...other than about the puking that is Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 14, 2005, at 3:55 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: Believe what you want. I have not stated such a thing to convince anybody. On the other hand, I am not going to pretend it was some fantasy, or that I mention this for ego aggrandizement as many would understand it, or keep quiet about it because there are folks out there that desperately need a rational explanation. You've been meditating long enough, deal with it, however you like. Were you able to touch him? Really good question. Yes, but it was subtle body to subtle body. I do recall three things at different times: once, laying my head at his feet, looking into his eyes, and holding his hand while we went for a walk. I honestly have no explanation for how any of that occurs. It began slowly with increasing visions of him over about 12 years, getting closer, and then one day, he was there with me. It felt like such a natural thing to happen, given my heart's desire at the time, and I was so overcome with bliss I really didn't think about it at all when it occurred, and have just tried to integrate it into my life since. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment/Question below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **SNIP** Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha **SNIP TO END** Jim, if you don't mind sharing, is there any details regarding your interaction(s) with Guru Dev that you can relate? Thanks, Marek Hi, yes- please see my answer to Vaj's question. Other than that, I've always detested mood making, and just followed the genuine desires of my heart. As I recall my desire began to form when I read in the Gita about God having a personal form, in order for us to be able to focus our devotion more easily on Him. At the time, I really wanted to be devoted to Maharishi, but just couldn't ever get personally jazzed about it. It always felt dry, like trying to fall in love with someone and you just can't. But I sure was attracted to that picture of Brahmananda Saraswati- his facial expression and the look in his eyes. I just really admired that- I thought, yeah, there is a true saint, who can live in the jungle, etc. That is a resolute Being! And it just went from there. Probably driven more from a sense of humility and desperation and surrender, than piety. I wrote a very few notes during that time: January 22, 1993 from communion Guru dev, His Divinity Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, perfect body; to look upon any part of His form instantly leads the mind on an inward march toward the Absolute, using the sense of sight. perfect heart; to be near Him feels like your perfect dad and best friend. perfect mind; to gaze into his eyes is to sit in the lotus, looking out over vast galaxies of stars; a throne upon the universe. PS I got the date wrong earlier, when replying from memory. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Premanand Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have received an email relating to a press conference in which MMY allegedly made himself look and sound like an Ill tempered raving lunatic. Does anyone know of such a conference and do they have a transcript? ...Britishers..the Raj in India in the 19th Cent.? ...maybe scorpions? I think that this is the notorious 5/11 press conference when Britain was kicked out of the movement (possibly to see what happened if the UK was deprived of its TM activity. So far, so good). But if one wants to study the effects of a sudden deprivation, there needs to be activity before. There wasn't. The transcript is on FFL, and will be about two to three weeks after May 11th. (Not easy to trace). Uns. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. You can only talk about what you experience, not another. And certainly don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. Amen. --- TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Absolutely. You got it! Nothing of value on the surface at all. It's all sentimentality and ego up there, but deep in the heart is that pulse of Brahman that just PULLS you into it and flattens all the bullshit of the personality. Pure Shiva whirling in absolute stillness destroying all boundaries. And yet I suspect you'd have to admit that this is a subjective feeling. A polite way of saying mood making, perhaps? And/ or the inner consolidation/condensation of ones own projections of how the world (and gurus) should be? I mean if one thinks MMY or whoever is IT, THE ONE, won't the mind almost automatically create a sense of that experience when one sees them? Particularly if it is a rare event / (always a) special occasion? Absolutely. The rarer the event is, the more likely it is that the expected experience will occur. Did the skinboys and inner circle types who were around MMY constantly experience him as blazing brahman. Absolutely not. That's why most of them left. Each of us is free to decide whether they were right in their decision to leave or not. Could the need to experience a teacher as blazing brahman justify the umpteen years poured into what now apear, at least in part as trivial and silly projects of his? I think so. There is a strong tendency in all humans to justify what one has dedicated years to. This tendency often keeps people paying lip service to what they have dedicated years to *years* past the time when they no longer feel it deserves their dedication. Most of the people I've ever met who have walked away from a strong involvement with a spiritual tradition have said that they did so several years later than they should have. The realization that they no longer fit predated their ability to accept or act on that realization. Someone once said that the grandeur of the described experience around the teacher is inversely proportional to ones proximity. There *is* a proximity factor at work here. The aura of a teacher is usually stronger in his/her close proximity than it is far away. That is, until and unless one develops an inner connection with the teacher that transcends time and space. At that point, distance no longer matters. But there are a myriad of energies that swirl around a strong spiritual teacher. In my opinion, some of these energies have to do with enlightenment, with eternity itself. Other of the energies have to do with the finite teacher and his or her good points, and his or her lingering samskaras. One of the things that tends to happen when one is in close proximity to a strong teacher is that one is bombarded by both types of energies, and can have a hard time figuring out which is which. Thus people sometimes begin to mistake the strong energy of the lingering samskaras for the strong energy of enlightenment. Just an opinion, but one based on experience... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment/Question below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **SNIP** Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha **SNIP TO END** Jim, if you don't mind sharing, is there any details regarding your interaction(s) with Guru Dev that you can relate? Thanks, Marek Hi, yes- please see my answer to Vaj's question. Other than that, I've always detested mood making, and just followed the genuine desires of my heart. As I recall my desire began to form when I read in the Gita about God having a personal form, in order for us to be able to focus our devotion more easily on Him. At the time, I really wanted to be devoted to Maharishi, but just couldn't ever get personally jazzed about it. It always felt dry, like trying to fall in love with someone and you just can't. But I sure was attracted to that picture of Brahmananda Saraswati- his facial expression and the look in his eyes. I just really admired that- I thought, yeah, there is a true saint, who can live in the jungle, etc. That is a resolute Being! And it just went from there. Probably driven more from a sense of humility and desperation and surrender, than piety. I wrote a very few notes during that time: January 22, 1993 from communion Guru dev, His Divinity Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, perfect body; to look upon any part of His form instantly leads the mind on an inward march toward the Absolute, using the sense of sight. perfect heart; to be near Him feels like your perfect dad and best friend. perfect mind; to gaze into his eyes is to sit in the lotus, looking out over vast galaxies of stars; a throne upon the universe. PS I got the date wrong earlier, when replying from memory. Very nice experience. I've never felt a strong connection to him. Different dharmas for different karmas. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY's personality is very much a product of his time and culture. It has nothing to do with anything cosmic. Blazing Brahman expresses itself through an aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89 year old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years. Boy, I think this is an important point. Peter, would it also be correct to phrase it slightly differently and say, This is *how* Blazing Brahman is expressing itself through this particular aging, slightly senile, lower-caste, 89-year-old Hindu man who has run a spiritual movement with an iron fist for the past 50 years? Yes, better stated your way. Dunno about better. Just another angle, really. I mean, obviously one has to think MMY has *realized* Blazing Brahman in order to make either of these two statements. But people tend to look at the *expression*, find it to be much less than what they think of as perfection in a relative sense, and on that basis assume MMY has *not* realized Brahman. Agreed. If you're looking for relative perfection in a realized master, good luck! For example in a residential Art of Living course I took about a year ago with SSRS in residence, I was bothered by his casual manner in talking about funny stories from his ashram and people throwing themselves at his feet. He wasn't making fun of them or anything but was talking about the difficulty in walking around and how much time it took to go from one end of his ashram to another. Very funny, very cute story. But I was amazed at part of my own reaction. I wanted him to be more serious and aloof and not have the reaction he did. Just some silly relative ideal of what a guru should be. My attachment, my problem, not his. Of course whether he has or hasn't is still one's individual take; it's just that the take shouldn't be based, it seems to me, on the perceived distance of the expression from what they would consider relative perfection. The first time I saw MMY in 1972 my mind blew wide open and left absolutely no doubts about his Realized status. And in every ensuing contact with him over the years this has happened over and over again with the experience getting deeper and deeper everytime. So what should it be based on?? I assume realized people and nonrealized people have different ways of evaluating MMY's state of consciousness. Your own direct experience...only! Well, I've never been in his presence, so if I'm going to make such a determination, I have to rely on other means. From my unrealized perspective, it's a combination of a gut hunch, and my awe at the depth, comprehensiveness, and internal consistency of his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness (including its implementation in the TM technique), as well as the teaching'sextraordinary explanatory value. Right, you find great value in his teachings. It just doesn't seem possible to me that a person, no matter how brilliant their mind, could come up with such a teaching purely on an intellectual basis. It has to be coming from some basis in higher intuitive knowledge (or Knowledge, to distinguish it from intellectual knowledge). Ageed! Of course, that's still based on a sense of how close MMY's expression comes to my idea of relative perfection, which is what I just said you shouldn't do. I don't think we can ever, to a complete degree, get away from this. In fact, it perhaps is a foolish spiritual ideal. Sure. The question is whether some relative expressions give one a more accurate idea of the higher reality than others. Seems to me his teaching on consciousness is a more accurate measuring tool in this regard than his political/social behavior, but I'm having trouble articulating why this should be the case. Now I'm trying to figure out on what basis I think evaluating his teaching on the nature and mechanics of consciousness is a more appropriate criterion on which to have an opinion of his realization, versus evaluating the sensibleness of his political and social pronouncements and what he's been doing with the TMO. Help me out here. They're both measuring what MMY expresses against a personal idea of relative perfection. Why should choosing one *type* of expression over another make a difference? Or are both approaches essentially absurd? Obviously I've gone off on something of a tangent here... Yeah, but a good tangent I think, ultimately, the value of a guru/master is in him/her functioning as a catalyst for one's own realization. This is appreciated by people as their experiences with the body of techniques offered, the intellectual
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In his dreams? Believe what you want. I have not stated such a thing to convince anybody. On the other hand, I am not going to pretend it was some fantasy, or that I mention this for ego aggrandizement as many would understand it, or keep quiet about it because there are folks out there that desperately need a rational explanation. You've been meditating long enough, deal with it, however you like. Its funny, no one said anything about belief, or lack thereof, pretending, fantasies, desperately needing a rational explanation, or ego aggrandizement. Yet you jump immediately to defend yourself on those grounds. As in Hamlet, The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I thought the remark about dreams funny -- multi-leveled: sains often come in deams; field of dreams -- create the field and they (saints) will come; I have a dream -- a desire to be in the presence of saints; and yes the slightly disparaging one -- in his imagination -- somewhat declawed by its juxtapostion. All together, a funny (and tasty) sandwich of meanings, in my mind. To paraphrase what Barry Wright said earlier, is daily life any less of an enlightened and enlightening experience? Sounds deep. Perhaps too much for me. (As deep a Barry White's voice?) So what? So Hum? By the way, do you have a match sir? Akasha, please go practice your cynicism and rationalizations elsewhere. Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha What a wonderful rorshoch test this is. The world is as we are. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Along the lines of 'delightful confusion', the literally funny thing is (and I think you've mentioned this before Tom also...), is that whenever the intellect tries to make sense of the paradox that is Brahman, all that results is this little percolation of bliss. Hey, I've had that experience! Many times a day I will juxtapose two complete opposites in my mind, the intellect will try for a resolution, going deeper and deeper, finally give up, bounce into the transcendent, back out again, and I'll break into a smile or small chuckle at this universal infinite joke... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 14, 2005, at 2:08 PM, jyouells2000 wrote: It's odd. If Maharishi's so right-wing how come almost everyone connected with him in the West leans so far left? It's a strange thing. It is. It's just the paradox of Brahman, so stop worrying. And he just has a funny way of showing his compassion. All is well. Is there great difference between a Christian fundie school kid who quotes the bible, talks of the Big Bang and tells about Jesus and a MSAE kid who quotes scientific literature, talks about AGNI and unified field theory to sell you his idea from M.? The second is a lot more sophisticated, interesting, and intellectually challenging, IMHO. Both are conditioned dogmas. Call it Pavlov's meditator. Fundies meditate? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
On Dec 14, 2005, at 6:07 PM, authfriend wrote: Both are conditioned dogmas. Call it Pavlov's meditator. Fundies meditate? They pray (presumably). To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Judy, Just a few off the cuff comments to your thoughtful reply. Regardless of your (our) judgement of Maharishi's state of consciousness, how the teaching is manifested still has to be evaluated critically. Does it acomplish it's purpose? This is part process of life. I'm not sure we can say what its purpose is in a way that would enable us to do a critical evaluation. How would you define it? You'll find the same internal consistency in many of the more proment Adviatic, Dzochen, Course in Miracles, etc. teachers. And many have the same type of character flaws we talk about here. Sure. But internal consistency is just one of the criteria I was using. Most of us agree that TM has inspired benificial unfoldment of consciousness. When we see or come into contact with Maharishi we get a clearer reflection/experience of OUR own Self (Blazing Brahman is non-dual, afterall) We (both us and Maharishi) still have to work it out in the relative, no matter what the perspective on where or who or from what state of consciousness the teaching comes from. Yes, well said. Without meditators there is no movement, no TMO. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master-/ disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Snake-oil salesmen, religions, cults, tyrants and even democratically- elected / appointed political leaders like I can't explain it pretty good why we kneaded to have done it, but like God told me to do it so I done it, I invaded Iraq revert to the same claim -- just trust my explanation even though I can't explain it rationally and you can never understand it: its 'a magic elexir, 'a miracle', 'god's will', 'what our founding fathers said was good for us', 'the unspoken mystery', 'the grand paradox'. How to differentiate I wonder? Maybe anybody who *trades* on just trust me is automatically not to be trusted. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, Actually all of the questions I wrote: the inner consolidation/condensation of ones own projections of how the world (and gurus) should be; could the need to experience a teacher as blazing brahman justify the umpteen years poured into the trivial etc., are prompted from reviewing, questioning and speculating about my own experiences with saints. not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. Who said anything about any specific other's experience? It was a serious of questions about the general drawn from observation and speculation of my own experiences, the specific You can only talk about what you experience, not another. OK I will try to keep that in mind when such circumstances arise. I assume you will also. And certainly don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. Amen. Aren't you now guilty of what you just preached not to do? It appears valid for you to conclude that your mind is never going to get him. But it seems baseless for you to conclude that another mind, much less all minds, are incapbable of getting him, or of anything for that matter. Isn't all possibilities part of the credo of this group? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In his dreams? Believe what you want. I have not stated such a thing to convince anybody. On the other hand, I am not going to pretend it was some fantasy, or that I mention this for ego aggrandizement as many would understand it, or keep quiet about it because there are folks out there that desperately need a rational explanation. You've been meditating long enough, deal with it, however you like. Its funny, no one said anything about belief, or lack thereof, pretending, fantasies, desperately needing a rational explanation, or ego aggrandizement. Yet you jump immediately to defend yourself on those grounds. As in Hamlet, The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I thought the remark about dreams funny -- multi-leveled: sains often come in deams; field of dreams -- create the field and they (saints) will come; I have a dream -- a desire to be in the presence of saints; and yes the slightly disparaging one -- in his imagination -- somewhat declawed by its juxtapostion. All together, a funny (and tasty) sandwich of meanings, in my mind. To paraphrase what Barry Wright said earlier, is daily life any less of an enlightened and enlightening experience? Sounds deep. Perhaps too much for me. (As deep a Barry White's voice?) So what? So Hum? By the way, do you have a match sir? Akasha, please go practice your cynicism and rationalizations elsewhere. Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha What a wonderful rorshoch test this is. The world is as we are. *yawn*... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: jim_flanegin writes; snipped Maharishi has evolved into pure paradox, transcending my intellect, and leaving me as the innocent witness to his actions. Like a master- disciple relationship only in the transcendent; ONLY in the transcendent. Pure Paradox. Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Along the lines of 'delightful confusion', the literally funny thing is (and I think you've mentioned this before Tom also...), is that whenever the intellect tries to make sense of the paradox that is Brahman, all that results is this little percolation of bliss. Hey, I've had that experience! Cool! I'm not surprised- I've heard it is also why some jokes are funny, e.g my brother's a great magician, he walked down the street and turned into a drugstore... Many times a day I will juxtapose two complete opposites in my mind, the intellect will try for a resolution, going deeper and deeper, finally give up, bounce into the transcendent, back out again, and I'll break into a smile or small chuckle at this universal infinite joke... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment/Question below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **SNIP** Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha **SNIP TO END** Jim, if you don't mind sharing, is there any details regarding your interaction(s) with Guru Dev that you can relate? Thanks, Marek Hi, yes- please see my answer to Vaj's question. Other than that, I've always detested mood making, and just followed the genuine desires of my heart. As I recall my desire began to form when I read in the Gita about God having a personal form, in order for us to be able to focus our devotion more easily on Him. At the time, I really wanted to be devoted to Maharishi, but just couldn't ever get personally jazzed about it. It always felt dry, like trying to fall in love with someone and you just can't. But I sure was attracted to that picture of Brahmananda Saraswati- his facial expression and the look in his eyes. I just really admired that- I thought, yeah, there is a true saint, who can live in the jungle, etc. That is a resolute Being! And it just went from there. Probably driven more from a sense of humility and desperation and surrender, than piety. I wrote a very few notes during that time: January 22, 1993 from communion Guru dev, His Divinity Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, perfect body; to look upon any part of His form instantly leads the mind on an inward march toward the Absolute, using the sense of sight. perfect heart; to be near Him feels like your perfect dad and best friend. perfect mind; to gaze into his eyes is to sit in the lotus, looking out over vast galaxies of stars; a throne upon the universe. PS I got the date wrong earlier, when replying from memory. Very nice experience. I've never felt a strong connection to him. Different dharmas for different karmas. Well said- a matter of getting our -armas around IT ;) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not now Not ever. Tom T Snake-oil salesmen, religions, cults, tyrants and even democratically- elected / appointed political leaders like I can't explain it pretty good why we kneaded to have done it, but like God told me to do it so I done it, I invaded Iraq revert to the same claim -- just trust my explanation even though I can't explain it rationally and you can never understand it: its 'a magic elexir, 'a miracle', 'god's will', 'what our founding fathers said was good for us', 'the unspoken mystery', 'the grand paradox'. How to differentiate I wonder? Intuition, ...plain...and...simple. A problem with intuition, in general, is that it can and is used by spiritual and political charlatans and others (look at bush, I just got a hunch its the right thing, I feel it strongly in my gut -- as if thats some sort of proof or validation of some lame brained thing that pops into his head. He really needs Byron Katie and have himself ask about each of his thoughts Is it true? Do I really know its True). Spiritual charlatans can justify great things by saying the insight is from their (implied, highly refined, highly evolved) intuition. Any questioning of such brings the easy retort well, if you don't HAVE it, I can't explain it to you or some such spurious and condescending comment. (with a small smirk and chuckle too) Personally using intuition, if that includes forsaking rational analysis, is such a trap for so many. On the other hand, intuition, insight, that is then tested or thought through rationally, can be a great tool. Part of a package. But to use it exclusively, in the above post, to discern wheat from chaf, charlatans from those with insight, appears naive. But each to his own, going with what works. If I were to go by intuition alone, I would take a number of posts on this list as unrepentant mood making. But I try to keep an open mind, the rational side keeps the door open. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a wonderful rorshoch test this is. The world is as we are. *yawn*... Ah, dream time aproaches. May the sugar plums be sweet and the rag dolls dance with glee. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Thank you, Jim. ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comment/Question below: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **SNIP** Besides the next time I see Guru Dev, I'm tattling on youHa Ha **SNIP TO END** Jim, if you don't mind sharing, is there any details regarding your interaction(s) with Guru Dev that you can relate? Thanks, Marek Hi, yes- please see my answer to Vaj's question. Other than that, I've always detested mood making, and just followed the genuine desires of my heart. As I recall my desire began to form when I read in the Gita about God having a personal form, in order for us to be able to focus our devotion more easily on Him. At the time, I really wanted to be devoted to Maharishi, but just couldn't ever get personally jazzed about it. It always felt dry, like trying to fall in love with someone and you just can't. But I sure was attracted to that picture of Brahmananda Saraswati- his facial expression and the look in his eyes. I just really admired that- I thought, yeah, there is a true saint, who can live in the jungle, etc. That is a resolute Being! And it just went from there. Probably driven more from a sense of humility and desperation and surrender, than piety. I wrote a very few notes during that time: January 22, 1993 from communion Guru dev, His Divinity Swami Brahmananda Saraswati, perfect body; to look upon any part of His form instantly leads the mind on an inward march toward the Absolute, using the sense of sight. perfect heart; to be near Him feels like your perfect dad and best friend. perfect mind; to gaze into his eyes is to sit in the lotus, looking out over vast galaxies of stars; a throne upon the universe. PS I got the date wrong earlier, when replying from memory. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis Tom T responds: This is the value of Brahman. Only Brahman can hold those extreme values inside one human mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about the nature of Brahman see above and ponder on that for a while. This is the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. On the hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva, go try and figure it out and you can't. That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T Perhaps you can take insight from Dr. Pete, below. You can speak for yourself and your experience, but not really for others. All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. You can only talk about what you experience, not another. snip Amen. Dr. PS = Perhaps Tom meant to say, This is the value of Brahman for me. Only what I call Brahman can hold those extreme values inside my mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about what I experience as the nature of Brahman, see above and ponder on that for a while and see if you get the same insight that I do. For me, this is an experience of the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. I percieve, and hey it may be my ownlimitations, but on one hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva. When I go try and figure it out, it am profoundly confused -- in a good way. I just for the life of me can't figure it out. Maybe you can, at least its worth a try. But that profound confusion, that is the definition of Brahman for me. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because it appeared to my mind that her mind was never going to figure it out. Not now, Not ever am I ever going to figure it out. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not now Not ever. Tom T Snake-oil salesmen, religions, cults, tyrants and even democratically- elected / appointed political leaders like I can't explain it pretty good why we kneaded to have done it, but like God told me to do it so I done it, I invaded Iraq revert to the same claim -- just trust my explanation even though I can't explain it rationally and you can never understand it: its 'a magic elexir, 'a miracle', 'god's will', 'what our founding fathers said was good for us', 'the unspoken mystery', 'the grand paradox'. How to differentiate I wonder? Intuition, ...plain...and...simple. A problem with intuition, in general, is that it can and is used by spiritual and political charlatans and others (look at bush, I just got a hunch its the right thing, I feel it strongly in my gut -- as if thats some sort of proof or validation of some lame brained thing that pops into his head. He really needs Byron Katie and have himself ask about each of his thoughts Is it true? Do I really know its True). Spiritual charlatans can justify great things by saying the insight is from their (implied, highly refined, highly evolved) intuition. Any questioning of such brings the easy retort well, if you don't HAVE it, I can't explain it to you or some such spurious and condescending comment. (with a small smirk and chuckle too) Personally using intuition, if that includes forsaking rational analysis, is such a trap for so many. On the other hand, intuition, insight, that is then tested or thought through rationally, can be a great tool. Part of a package. But to use it exclusively, in the above post, to discern wheat from chaf, charlatans from those with insight, appears naive. But each to his own, going with what works. If I were to go by intuition alone, I would take a number of posts on this list as unrepentant mood making. But I try to keep an open mind, the rational side keeps the door open. All good points. I think of the tool of intuition as something to continually be tested and verified. Otherwise, as you imply, it can easily be subverted by 'magical thinking' and lead to delusion. However I have come to strongly rely on it to at least send up a signal flag about something or other. A good example is at work, my boss said the other day that she trusts my judgement but remarked that she wished I'd get to the point more quickly (not a lamentation, but more an observation). I replied that I first felt my reaction in my body (what I call intution) and then figure out what it is telling me. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a wonderful rorshoch test this is. The world is as we are. *yawn*... Ah, dream time aproaches. May the sugar plums be sweet and the rag dolls dance with glee. dude, you are quick minded, but that may in fact be your biggest barrier. Good night Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What a wonderful rorshoch test this is. The world is as we are. *yawn*... Ah, dream time aproaches. May the sugar plums be sweet and the rag dolls dance with glee. dude, you are quick minded, but that may in fact be your biggest barrier. Good night Sweet dreams. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Judy writes: Maybe anybody who *trades* on just trust me is automatically not to be trusted. Tom T Once got a Bday card showing a shark wearing a suit and tie with a sign in the backgound saying shark and shark atty's at law. The caption under the shark was Trust Me for all y our legal needs. I thought that was really funny. Tom T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, uns_tressor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...Britishers..the Raj in India in the 19th Cent.? ...maybe scorpions? I think that this is the notorious 5/11 press conference when Britain was kicked out of the movement (possibly to see what happened if the UK was deprived of its TM activity. So far, so good). * http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,17129-1930740,00.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Judy, Just a few off the cuff comments to your thoughtful reply. Regardless of your (our) judgement of Maharishi's state of consciousness, how the teaching is manifested still has to be evaluated critically. Does it acomplish it's purpose? This is part process of life. I'm not sure we can say what its purpose is in a way that would enable us to do a critical evaluation. How would you define it? You'll find the same internal consistency in many of the more proment Adviatic, Dzochen, Course in Miracles, etc. teachers. And many have the same type of character flaws we talk about here. Sure. But internal consistency is just one of the criteria I was using. Most of us agree that TM has inspired benificial unfoldment of consciousness. When we see or come into contact with Maharishi we get a clearer reflection/experience of OUR own Self (Blazing Brahman is non-dual, afterall) We (both us and Maharishi) still have to work it out in the relative, no matter what the perspective on where or who or from what state of consciousness the teaching comes from. Yes, well said. Without meditators there is no movement, no TMO. JohnY Sure, the purpose of the teaching is to unfold enlightenment for the individual. Simple, if there is no or limited access to the teaching how can that happen. Maharishi has planted that seed very widely. Why should it stop now? Is the TMO fulfilling it's purpose now? Very difficult to say. Will it do so in the future? There certainly isn't any clear indication of that. The TMO is and has been violently contracting on itself. Burning many carefully build bridges along the way. Slowly and simply teaching all these years would have worked better, in my opinion, with much less bullshit. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Judy, Just a few off the cuff comments to your thoughtful reply. Regardless of your (our) judgement of Maharishi's state of consciousness, how the teaching is manifested still has to be evaluated critically. Does it acomplish it's purpose? This is part process of life. I'm not sure we can say what its purpose is in a way that would enable us to do a critical evaluation. How would you define it? You'll find the same internal consistency in many of the more proment Adviatic, Dzochen, Course in Miracles, etc. teachers. And many have the same type of character flaws we talk about here. Sure. But internal consistency is just one of the criteria I was using. Most of us agree that TM has inspired benificial unfoldment of consciousness. When we see or come into contact with Maharishi we get a clearer reflection/experience of OUR own Self (Blazing Brahman is non-dual, afterall) We (both us and Maharishi) still have to work it out in the relative, no matter what the perspective on where or who or from what state of consciousness the teaching comes from. Yes, well said. Without meditators there is no movement, no TMO. JohnY Sure, the purpose of the teaching is to unfold enlightenment for the individual. Simple, if there is no or limited access to the teaching how can that happen. Maharishi has planted that seed very widely. Why should it stop now? Is the TMO fulfilling it's purpose now? Very difficult to say. Will it do so in the future? There certainly isn't any clear indication of that. The TMO is and has been violently contracting on itself. Burning many carefully build bridges along the way. Slowly and simply teaching all these years would have worked better, in my opinion, with much less bullshit. It's a reasonable perspective, but it isn't exactly the basis for an objective measurement of whether MMY's teaching is fulfilling its purpose. There are lots of ways to interpret what MMY is doing with the TMO now, some of which suggest that it will ultimately facilitate that purpose more than going slowly and simply. I've proposed one such: MMY wants to contract the movement and burn its bridges so that it can be handed over to King Tony in a nice, neat, self- contained package of unquestioned loyalty once MMY dies, which will allow Tony to take firm control and implement his own plans and ideas without a lot of controversy (or at least without as much as there would have been otherwise). In other words, the contraction now will make expansion easier once King Tony takes over. I have *no* idea if that's correct; obviously we'll have to wait and see. We have no idea yet what Tony will be like as the head of the movement, whether he'll take it and run with it or get all bogged down in trying (and inevitably failing) to be a second Maharishi. But I don't see anything that would rule out that interpretation, at any rate. There's more than one way to skin a cat; plus which, Unfathomable is the course of action. Who can say what Nature has in mind? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
That is the definition of Brahman. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because the mind was never going to figure it out. Not now Not ever. Tom T That's the thing about spiritual progress. You keep waiting to arrive. But it's never clear when you do arrive. Maybe after a while things become clear, that you may have reached a milestone. But by that time you're dealing with a new set of confusions. lurk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM --- -~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said Ayatolla Maharishi Yea, but who's the ayatollah of rock n rolla. lurk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
Akasha 108 writes: This is the value of Brahman for me. Only what I call Brahman can hold those extreme values inside my mind and live with that paradox. If you have any doubt left about what I experience as the nature of Brahman, see above and ponder on that for a while and see if you get the same insight that I do. For me, this is an experience of the exposition and playing out of the Jaimini sutras. I percieve, and hey it may be my ownlimitations, but on one hand is the realtive loony toon character and on the other hand is the blazing brillance of pure Shiva. When I go try and figure it out, it am profoundly confused -- in a good way. I just for the life of me can't figure it out. Maybe you can, at least its worth a try. But that profound confusion, that is the definition of Brahman for me. I once heard a 23 year old, FF born and raised, describe her enlightenment as delightful confusion. Delightful because it was and confusion because it appeared to my mind that her mind was never going to figure it out. Not now, Not ever am I ever going to figure it out. Tom T responds: Who is this I that Akasha is writing into my letter. Is that your projection. The writer looking out through these eyes is that Brahman. What has been written is the experience of life lived. It may not be your experience if you are real attached to that I you keep inserting in someones elses letter. The young lady in question said it was her experience that her mind was never going to figure it out. Not Now. Not ever. It would be nice if you could cut the BS of pretending to post as anon when most of us here know who you are Mr Akasha. Your signature is pretty easy to read now. Enjoy Tom T Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: The British in India
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said Ayatolla Maharishi Yea, but who's the ayatollah of rock n rolla. The Wez, of course. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
