Temperament and evaluations
This message is from: Steve McIlree I am posting this message for Phillip Odden while I try to figure out what is preventing him from posting directly to the List. -- Steve Owner/Administrator FjordHorse List From: Phillip Odden Subject: Temperament and evaluations Date: October 9, 2013 9:06:23 AM CDT To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" This message is from Phillip Odden in Northwestern Wisconsin where the fall leaves are nearing full color. I have not followed the full discussion on temperament and Fjords but I was able to see Lorie's and now Brian's post. So since I feel Brian jerking my chain in a rather soft and supportive way, I feel compelled to throw my two cents into the bottomless pit of opinions. Yes it is widely felt, and I agree, that temperament, willingness, and trainability may be measured best by standard performance tests. I can not imagine how anyone can judge performance in a conformation test when the horse only needs to stand still walk and trot. Though when a horse seems unable to do even these three things one can begin to wonder about the horse's temperament and trainability. But then there is a lot more to it than that since the horse needs to learn to behave as well off the farm as it does on the farm and to do that it needs to get used to being off the farm. All horses are good horses until you ask them to do something. Some Fjords have good temperament and are easily trained but might lack the athletic ability to do the performance tests well. Some have the athletic ability to do the tests but are unable to focus because of outside stimulation or they may be unwilling to work. Some are trainable but down right lazy. Still another group may have athletic ability and are trainable but from time to time decide to do things their way for reasons unknown. Its very difficult to depend on a horse like this. I like Fjords that are calm and easily trained, have lots of athletic ability, and dependable so that I can relax and enjoy getting the job done. Horses like this are fun to work with and much safer. Often the question comes down to nature or nurture. Is the horse naturally gifted or flawed to some degree or has the horse been trained and handled poorly? Is the trainer training the horse or is the horse training the trainer/handler? The horse is always trying to train us you know. In a 5 week station test for stallions in Norway each horse receives the same handling and training and is scored on the same set of diverse tests. The horses are generally of the same year class. The horses receive scores from the trainers and from evaluators at the conclusion of the test. The veterinarian gives a score based on the horse's conformation problems to predict durability and soundness as a breeding stallion. Some European evaluations require that horses do certain tests at a certain age. In this way it might be easier to judge how trainable the horse is if for example all three year old must do a basic performance test to be certified. In our system we judge horses three years old and older in performance and we don't take into account how many years of training and experience they have. You can train the horse for several years to do the test if you wish. And if it doesn't do well you can bring them back and try it again. The Family Fjord tests are meant to evaluate a horse first on basic ground work and later on basic riding and driving. Elements of the FF tests reflect what a well behaved Fjord should be able to do away from home while on a trail ride or pleasure drive. The expectations and skills learned in the ground tests transfer directly to the riding and driving tests. If your horse can accomplish this set of tests with a measure of grace, you probably have a trainable Fjord with a reasonably sound mind and enough athletic ability to make most people happy. The NFHR evaluation system is only a tool to help people understand their horses better. The evaluation system might be useful in identifying lines of horses or individuals with better than average or poorer than average characteristics. The program can be useful for breeders to gauge how their breeding program is going by having their offspring evaluated. All evaluation programs have strengths and weaknesses so each individual needs to bring their own knowledge and experience to the table as well in order to make informed decisions. There is more but that is enough for now. Hoping you are all enjoying your Fjords on which ever level you choose. Phil Odden Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
A Short History Evaluations in America
This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" Lori Albrough wrote a good article on the above subject, so I was hoping for some Digest discussions around these important issues. That seems to not have happened, so I thought to give a little Evaluation history lesson for new members. I will try and give a little history lesson as they unfolded in America, especially the NFHR. I was on the original Evaluation committee that was tasked to produce an Evaluation Program for America. That was back in the early 90's so there was mainly telephone and fax communication. We were assisted by Wayne Hipsley and Jim Havelhurst/Evaluators via teleconference. After much discussion about which European Evaluation Program the NFHR should adopt, someone came up with the idea of creating our own American program using parts of the European systems we felt appropriate. Stallion Testing Stations were discussed and not utilized here due to geography, economics, and cultural differences. I do personally feel it is a good idea, however there are now European Fjord countries who have dropped Stallion Testing Stations or are considering dropping it. The cost of Stallion Testing is quite high, which in America would eliminate a lot of Fjord owners who simply could not afford the Test and simply go their own way. The committee wanted the Program to be inclusive rather that exclusive. So the Program slowly developed, with the next discussion about temperament being put on the Conformation score sheet, which originally came from Wayne Hipsley. Again after lots of discussions, it was decided to have two main portions to the Evaluation Program---Conformation and Performance. Being Wayne's Conformation sheet was adopted without temperament, the committee then started work on the Performance side which included tests in Riding, Driving, and Draft. Committee members with experience in one of these disciplines were tasked to create tests at an Introductory and Advanced Level. The Performance side was utilized to test the temperament of the Fjord presented along with its ability to do Riding, Driving, and or Draft. Since ribbons were already being used for individual tests, medallions were introduced at different levels which represented the combination of Conformation and Performance, or the combination of Conformation and Temperament. The committee knew and realized the NFHR, American Program was new and at a start, so it was and still is a work in progress. Now that the NFHR had their own Evaluation in place it was time to create a Program to train new American Evaluators. In Europe most countries select Evaluator trainees and provide the funds plus the training of them to become certified. The European Evaluators have their travel and accommodation paid but receive no per diem. In America the trainees paid all their own expenses to become certified so receive travel, accommodation and a per diem. Fourteen hopefuls started the three years of Evaluator training which included working in Norway and practicing with the Senior Evaluators who were Wayne Hipsley, Jim Havelhurst, and Karen Cabic. Of the 14 starters, five trainees successfully received their Evaluator status. There were to be two Evaluators at each Evaluation. One Senior Evaluator, and one of the new Evaluators. After working six Evaluations the Junior Evaluators could be promoted to Senior Evaluator status. It is my understanding that four Junior Evaluators have been given Senior status. As the Evaluation Program has always been a work in progress, Phillip Odden wanted to introduce the Family Fjord Program into the Performance side. This was a good decision as it gives the opportunity for family Fjords to enter the program and be recognized, which supports the inclusive rather than exclusive standard. Presently it is being worked on by the Evaluation Committee, with imput from Evaluators. Germany had been using a Family Fjord Test in their program successfully for years , so I asked Susie Schon-Peterson to forward their Program to Phillip. The Family Fjord Program has filled an existing need in offering Tests for the family level of utilizing their Fjord horses. Along the way myself and Pat Wolfe were interested in the CFHA adopting the NFHR Evaluation for use in Canada. The original idea was to have two totally independent countries and independent Associations share the same program. Thanks to the NFHR and its executive this has become a reality giving the CFHA an Evaluation Program and a source of American trained Evaluators. If anyone has questions or wants clarification you can write me at our g-mail address.Brian Jensen Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Fjord temperament, breeding, and evaluations
This message is from: Robin Churchill Similarly most of the warmblood registries require that the stallions go through a 100 day stallion performance test which is similar to what Lori described but more in-depth. In that testing temperament and rideability accounts for 45% of the stallion's score. Here is a link with a description of what the testing consists of if anyone is interested. http://www.equisearch.com/horses_care/health/breeding/test41203/ When my friends got their Dutch Warmblood stallion approved, the cost of sending him for the testing was about $10,000 and I think that was about 10 years ago, so a significant investment. Robin in SW Florida where the weather is getting a bit better but still hot Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Fjord temperament, breeding, and evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough There has been an interesting discussion on the list regarding the temperament of the Fjord horse, ranging from whether they are good for kids, should be called bombproof, if the breed is changing to a more reactive horse, and breeding horses with super quiet dispositions but not great conformation, etc. One comment really got my attention, when one poster said that they would gladly trade two blue evaluated Fjord horses for a pokey Fjord of yesteryear. This comment made me want to point out the difference in evaluations systems between countries. The North American system doesn't have a way to evaluate temperament or disposition. The conformation/movement portion is essentially 10-15 minutes in-hand on the triangle, and the performance tests are presenting a 15 minute test mounted or driven by the horse's own owner/trainer/handler. This gives in my opinion limited opportunity for the judges to truly know the "inside" of the horse. Contrast this to the 30-day stallion test in Europe, where young stallions are brought to the station and left there for the 30-day duration, where they are handled daily by trainers they don't know, who are scoring these horses on EVERYTHING. This includes the horses' behaviour in the stall, manners, willingness to work, respect, cooperation with people, ability to learn. The young stallions in the station test are taught their basics in riding, driving, and draft work, they do free jumping, riding outside in wide open spaces as well as traffic, they do basic dressage. Every facet of this work and how they deal with it is scored by their trainers. Even the vet gives a score for what the horse is like to handle! Stallions coming into the station test need to have their temporary breeding license based on a satisfactory conformation/movement score, but they will lose that license for any temperament problems that show themselves. Crib-biting for example => lost license (Fjords need to be able to tolerate long periods of time stabled in countries where land is in short supply). Biting at people => lost license. In order for a horse to receive a score of 8, which means good, the horse has to really be GOOD, which means willing, calm, sensible, respectful, thinking things through before he reacts ... in short, everything we desire in a using horse. When we purchased Mogly from Belgium (without going over to try him first) we had this tool of being able to look at his 30 day test and see his scores and the testers' comments in all categories. In his case he had an overall 83% and across the board 9's for temperament in every performance test! This was invaluable information which allowed us to make an informed decision, and we ended up with a horse who is the easiest and nicest horse I have ever handled and worked with, bar none (mare, gelding, or stallion). What I want for myself as a horse owner and breeder, is a horse that is sensible and wants to work with me, and the European station testing system actually tests for that. My belief is that disposition is highly heritable, and while there is a lot more than just genetics that goes into a finished product (correct early handling and experiences being just one example), genetics is important. I am sold on the strength of the 30-day station testing to accurately measure this important facet of an animal's overall qualities. Lori -- Lori Albrough Bluebird Lane Fjords R.R.#3 Moorefield Ont Canada N0G 2K0 phone: 519-638-5598 email: l...@bluebirdlane.com http://www.bluebirdlane.com Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: 2013 Evaluations and CO Update
This message is from: Anne Crandall So glad to hear everyone made it thru OK! Take care. Anne Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Jeanne wrote: >This message is from: "Jeanne" > > >Hello Everyone, > > > >I just wanted send a note to everyone to talk about the 2013 Evaluations. > > > >In August we held an evaluation in Herndon, VA. There were 27 horses there. >Margaret Bogie and Curtis Pierce coordinated this event. > > > >Last week we held another evaluation in Libby, MT. There were 19 horses >there. Mary Johnson coordinated this one. > > > >I attended both these evaluations and acted as Technical Delegate. I >couldn�t be more pleased with the outcome. I was very happy with the >evaluator�s at both events. We need to all be more appreciative of our >evaluators� not an easy job! We are so lucky to have such educated people >helping us better the breed in North America. I saw some NICE horses at >both evaluations. > > > >The Family Fjord tests were a big hit at both evaluations. At both, we had >people adding the Family Fjord tests to their entries at the last minute. >We handed out many bronze medallions. It was fun to watch, and everyone who >participated said it was fun to do. Well done, Evaluation Committee, for >getting these tests on board and offered to our 2013 evaluations! > > > >Many thanks to everyone who came and participated at both evaluations. A >special thanks to Margaret Bogie, Curtis Pierce and Mary Johnson for >coordinating these events. > > > >Looking forward to 2014 and the possibility of more evaluations! > > > >We here in Colorado are drying out. The devastation caused by the floods is >unbelievable. In some places it looks like a war zone. I was at the Libby >evaluation when the rain started (btw, it was 90+ in Libby!) On Thursday I >received a text from my husband telling me he was evacuating my horses. >?!?! (he�s not a horse person) with help from some very good friends he >got them moved safely to a good fjord friend�s place, dryer ground. The >creek we live about � mile from became a raging river and came within a few >hundred feet of my house. On Friday we lost water. I couldn�t bring my >horses home without water. They restored the water yesterday and ponies are >back home. We dodged a bullet, for sure. The creek I�m talking about is so >small normally, you can walk across it. This summer I believe it might have >even dried up. It�s now a raging river. Our neighbors across the road from >us have severe flood damage. Other fjord friends on our road had flood >damage, but I believe their horses and they are safe. Nancy Newport�s farm >is wet, but good, as is Beth Beymer and Sandy North�s place, Starfire Farm. >The temps are rising and drying everything out. Many thanks for all the >calls/texts/emails from everyone asking about us. > > > >Jeanne Poirier > >NFHR Registrar > >Important FjordHorse List Links: >Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e >FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw >FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
2013 Evaluations and CO Update
This message is from: "Jeanne" Hello Everyone, I just wanted send a note to everyone to talk about the 2013 Evaluations. In August we held an evaluation in Herndon, VA. There were 27 horses there. Margaret Bogie and Curtis Pierce coordinated this event. Last week we held another evaluation in Libby, MT. There were 19 horses there. Mary Johnson coordinated this one. I attended both these evaluations and acted as Technical Delegate. I couldnt be more pleased with the outcome. I was very happy with the evaluators at both events. We need to all be more appreciative of our evaluators not an easy job! We are so lucky to have such educated people helping us better the breed in North America. I saw some NICE horses at both evaluations. The Family Fjord tests were a big hit at both evaluations. At both, we had people adding the Family Fjord tests to their entries at the last minute. We handed out many bronze medallions. It was fun to watch, and everyone who participated said it was fun to do. Well done, Evaluation Committee, for getting these tests on board and offered to our 2013 evaluations! Many thanks to everyone who came and participated at both evaluations. A special thanks to Margaret Bogie, Curtis Pierce and Mary Johnson for coordinating these events. Looking forward to 2014 and the possibility of more evaluations! We here in Colorado are drying out. The devastation caused by the floods is unbelievable. In some places it looks like a war zone. I was at the Libby evaluation when the rain started (btw, it was 90+ in Libby!) On Thursday I received a text from my husband telling me he was evacuating my horses. ?!?! (hes not a horse person) with help from some very good friends he got them moved safely to a good fjord friends place, dryer ground. The creek we live about ½ mile from became a raging river and came within a few hundred feet of my house. On Friday we lost water. I couldnt bring my horses home without water. They restored the water yesterday and ponies are back home. We dodged a bullet, for sure. The creek Im talking about is so small normally, you can walk across it. This summer I believe it might have even dried up. Its now a raging river. Our neighbors across the road from us have severe flood damage. Other fjord friends on our road had flood damage, but I believe their horses and they are safe. Nancy Newports farm is wet, but good, as is Beth Beymer and Sandy Norths place, Starfire Farm. The temps are rising and drying everything out. Many thanks for all the calls/texts/emails from everyone asking about us. Jeanne Poirier NFHR Registrar Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: Mary Nelson Thank you Phillip for clearly & objectively discussing evaluations. As a soon to be owner of a fjord - I find evaluations are extremely helpful in educating myself on what constitutes a quality fjord & correct fjord conformation. Obviously there are variations - lighter build to draft style based on what each person intends to do with their horses. Coming from the Appaloosa world where a disregard for the long-term effects of outcrossing has resulted in many horses with little or no real appaloosa characteristics - I find the ability to use the evaluation process to objectively evaluate my own & other fjords a positive idea. As a future small breeder - I would certainly look to evaluated stallions to assist in determining the best cross with my mare to maximize good qualities & compensate for any short comings. I love the fact that fjords are being used to do pretty much anything and support the NFHR to continue the focus on maintaining a pure breed. Mary From: PHILLIP Odden To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 12:12:44 PM Subject: Evaluations This message is from: PHILLIP Odden This message is from Phillip Odden in Northwestern Wisconsin. For some reason I feel compelled to state the case, as I see it, for attending an NFHR evaluation this year. The modern Fjord Horse that has traveled to us from Europe is the product of selective breeding. That means that the Norwegians as well as other European countries have established programs to evaluate and select breeding stock to improve or perhaps not improve all aspects of the Fjords in their countries. At least all breeding animals need to be evaluated if the animals are to be registered. In the USA the NFHR is one of the few registries that offers an evaluation program to its membership. It comes down to form and function. Fjord Horses are supposed to have good quality in their legs. Our Breed standard says so. If you breed animals with poor legs to animals with poor legs, the legs of the animals you breed will have poorer and poorer legs. I do not think people are born with the knowledge to understand the defects and qualities of legs in Fjord Horses. The NFHR evaluation program offers an independent opinion by two trained evaluators who understand leg quality. They also evaluate quality in heads, necks, movement, body muscling and above all the breed characteristics that a Fjord horse should have. With performance tests we are able to evaluate trainability and disposition as well as athletic ability. The proof is in the pudding as they say. NFHR and CFHA evaluation program offers a good tool to understand more about the Fjords you are breeding, buying or using. The question is, Will the Fjords that you are now breeding have as good or better quality than the ones that have been imported from countries with Evaluation and selective breeding programs? And, how will you know? Thinking of the quality of future Fjord Horses respectfully, Phillip Odden Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: breeding/evaluations
This message is from: Amy Evers This message is from: "Cheryl" y opinion, short n sweet. Freedom to do what I want with MY animal, the hoice to breed to a specific animal, education to make the right breeding hoices.. heryl in Co Yes, Cheryl that's true. And always, along with freedom (in any situation) comes RESPONSIBILITY! Any person is "free" to breed any animal they want to breed... But, isn't it also that person's responsibility to breed the very best possible animal that they can? When a person chooses to breed any animal - and especially a REGISTERED breed - it implies that they are assuming the responsibilty for the future of that breed (species, subspecies, etc.). Part of that responsibility, in my opinion, is to educate yourself as much as possible about the animal or breed you choose, and do your best to sellect the very best breeding stock you can find, if you intend to breed. That is what programs like OUR Evaluation system are for... to assist people in making educated choices; to give them the education necessary to make good choices; to help them determin if their choices are indeed correct (according to breed standard). Just my humble opinion... Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords Cottage Grove OR 97424 Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
breeding/evaluations
This message is from: "Cheryl" My opinion, short n sweet. Freedom to do what I want with MY animal, the choice to breed to a specific animal, education to make the right breeding choices.. Cheryl in Co Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Evaluations
This message is from: PHILLIP Odden This message is from Phillip Odden in Northwestern Wisconsin. For some reason I feel compelled to state the case, as I see it, for attending an NFHR evaluation this year. The modern Fjord Horse that has traveled to us from Europe is the product of selective breeding. That means that the Norwegians as well as other European countries have established programs to evaluate and select breeding stock to improve or perhaps not improve all aspects of the Fjords in their countries. At least all breeding animals need to be evaluated if the animals are to be registered. In the USA the NFHR is one of the few registries that offers an evaluation program to its membership. It comes down to form and function. Fjord Horses are supposed to have good quality in their legs. Our Breed standard says so. If you breed animals with poor legs to animals with poor legs, the legs of the animals you breed will have poorer and poorer legs. I do not think people are born with the knowledge to understand the defects and qualities of legs in Fjord Horses. The NFHR evaluation program offers an independent opinion by two trained evaluators who understand leg quality. They also evaluate quality in heads, necks, movement, body muscling and above all the breed characteristics that a Fjord horse should have. With performance tests we are able to evaluate trainability and disposition as well as athletic ability. The proof is in the pudding as they say. NFHR and CFHA evaluation program offers a good tool to understand more about the Fjords you are breeding, buying or using. The question is, Will the Fjords that you are now breeding have as good or better quality than the ones that have been imported from countries with Evaluation and selective breeding programs? And, how will you know? Thinking of the quality of future Fjord Horses respectfully, Phillip Odden Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
evaluations/breeding stock
This message is from: woodberryfa...@comcast.net I see what you are saying Bonnie, and I guess I have to agree. We want the freedom to breed what we like. And also to buy the type we like. I prefer the 'family tractor' type, but I understand everyone doesn't. I still think having our breeding horses evaluated by an expert is a good responsible thing to do, and I hope we can make it easier for people to do that. Right now it would be quite a road trip for me. There is a problem with the market now, for all horses. But I think fjords have a smaller market base than most breeds, and too many young untrained fjords on the market now.   Slowing down the breeding at this time would be a good thing, and keeping quality in the breeding is important if we want to grow our market in the future. Everyone has there own opinion, thanks for letting me share mine, and hearing yours. mary Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: evaluations/breeding stock
This message is from: morrisshado...@aol.com "I am not a breeder nor do I want to be.Ã From what little I know and observe As a breeder I will give my observation. #1 You have to have a market to give value to your animals. Right now there is not much of a market ( no matter what breed or quality you are). #2 Gathering information about your breed from just one source is not going to give you the real picture. #3 Know your market. Most Americans are emotional, compulsive pet lovers. So yes they are going to buy a Fjord because they are cute, cuddly and yes temperament. Most will not buy the highly priced import of perfection (which is quite inexpensive to purchase in Europe)unless the status of the origin is the drive behind purchase. #4 If you canvas our great nation you will find may high quality fjords being produced(you do have to look) . All with the same lineage and diversity as the European counter parts. #5 The grass always seems green on the other side. #6 What do people really do with their Fjord? If you want to go and win a race ( you will not buy a Fjord) as far a diversity goes the quarter horse wins that hands down. Hm what is the original use of the Fjord (family tractor). #7 Any breeder who gets involved in breeding with the thought that they are going to make a buck will become re-educated as soon as they start. #8 Fjords are not puppie milled or mass-produced (just look at the # of foals registered annually) #9 Fact the breed is going to change. It already has and will continue if it wants to survive. It has to progress with the fashion of the times, peoples needs, wants, desires. #10 When we have quality the trend tends to become what is (in) at that point in time. Everyone does not have the same criteria for what is beautiful to them. #11 Most people in the US do not breed. They have lots of emotional non objective, non-intellectual stress relieving enjoyment from their Fjord. I could go on, but I have to go and feed, clean up after, train, brush and emotionally kiss my multi- million (no billion) $ breeding machine:0) American humor (Just in case) Bonnie Morris and Lordie of the Fjordies tooo cute for words! western Washington Gray sky's possible sun breaks, showers, hail, in the lower 40s with a chance of 70 crazy spring weather! Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
evaluations/breeding stock
This message is from: woodberryfa...@comcast.net "I am not a breeder nor do I want to be. From what little I know and observe from the "Herald," the quality of Fjords in Europe far surpasses those in much of America. "Genetic Diversity" is not enough: intelligent, objective breeders are also needed. Many Fjord owners/breeders are nice, good people. But any kind of breeding should be intelligent, serious, and objective. The Europeans know so much more and are so much more scientific about their approach with Fjords . I'm sure many American breeders are too emotionally involved in their efforts and lack objectivity." This was a quote from one of the many emails I got privately, but it really mirrored my thoughts. It seems alot of people are afraid to voice their opinion on the forum, afraid to cause hard feelings. I'm sorry if I have done that. But it bothers me to see our fjords selling for so little, and I worry about the future of some of the "puppy mill" bred fjords. Not everyone is as concerned about breeding for quality, and more concerned with making a buck. I am just hoping there is some way that here in the U.S. we can preserve what the fjord breed is, and not change them into something else. Look at quarterhorses, there are the halter horses, race horses, cow horses, ect. They are so different mentally and physically that they are almost a different breed. Our fjords could become the same without breed rules. Mary Wood Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: breeding/evaluations
This message is from: Melinda Schumacher Good point and well said, Ruthie. Melinda lovely spring weather in Granville OH, with the lushest grass I have ever seen in my life. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 4:14 PM, ruth bushnell wrote: > This message is from: "ruth bushnell" > > > > >> > The current scientific mandate for best breeding strategies is for varied > genetic assortment; called "genetic diversity." Overall breed health is best > maintained through incorporating as many original bloodlines as possible > throughout the history of a breed-- this is especially true of a RARE breed > because there were too few foundation animals and considerable linebreeding > was commonplace in the beginning. (geographical and economical constraints) Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: breeding/evaluations
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" I understand in Norway, and perhaps other countries as well, that only Fjords that have been evaluated and approved can be used as breeding animal. Looking at the increasing numbers of fjords in the USA that are breeding and have not been evaluated, I am wondering if it is time to introduce something like that here. Can there be another level of registration for the evaluated/breeding approved horses? How about those that are produced outside of this having a limited registration?> Has this already been discussed and thrown out? Let's hear opinions. (sign your name) The current scientific mandate for best breeding strategies is for varied genetic assortment; called "genetic diversity." Overall breed health is best maintained through incorporating as many original bloodlines as possible throughout the history of a breed-- this is especially true of a RARE breed because there were too few foundation animals and considerable linebreeding was commonplace in the beginning. (geographical and economical constraints) Any breeding selection process that promotes narrowed choices is diametrically opposed to genetic diversity, therefore longterm destructive to the breed's well being. An extreme example is what the show world has done to some dog breeds, not to forget that some smaller horse breeds are also in homozygous distress. We have a solemn responsibility to the welfare of the Fjord horse breed to be earnestly and actively searching for latest scientific information available on how we might best preserve their genome complement. Not by historical tradition, not by superficial preferences, but by asking for professional genetic policies which promote breed vigor--such as equal gender balance, limited stud use/or bloodline, and availing ourselves of latest university recommendations. Further restricting our breeding choices would be the very worst thing we could do for the breed's genetic integrity. Ruthie, nw mt US Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Re: breeding/evaluations
This message is from: "coy...@acrec.com" I am probably going to step on someones toes here. Maybe. Maybe not. Check the archives for the many times this topic has been discussed in the past. --DeeAnna Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
breeding/evaluations
This message is from: woodberryfa...@comcast.net I am probably going to step on someones toes here. I understand in Norway, and perhaps other countries as well, that only Fjords that have been evaluated and approved can be used as breeding animal. Looking at the increasing numbers of fjords in the USA that are breeding and have not been evaluated, I am wondering if it is time to introduce something like that here. Can there be another level of registration for the evaluated/breeding approved horses? How about those that are produced outside of this having a limited registration? Has this already been discussed and thrown out? Let's hear opinions. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Evaluations
This message is from: "Sue Clark-Sorger" Hi All, My trainer asked me a question yesterday I couldn't find the answer to. If someone other than an owner rides a horse in an evaluation does that rider have to be a member of the NFHR?? We are hoping there will be an evaluation in Colorado next year and so are working my 2 fjords towards that goal. I own Anniken a 6 year old mare that is coming along very well in riding and driving. Anni is not a forward mare and at times she has been a challenge because she has a definite opinion on not working too hard. Paul on the other hand is much more forward. My trainer Patti has started riding this 3 year old and he just wants to canter and I have told her I want to wait until next year when he is a bit older. What do the experienced trainers on this list have to say to this is 3 too early to be cantering a 3 year old??? Paul is ridden right now 5 or 6 days a week, he is a pretty calm youngster and has been ridden out in the area with very little problem with vehicles, construction, and dogs. When I purchased this youngster in March this year I couldn't even touch his legs and certainly couldn't clean his feet. I puchased him very inexpensively from a couple in the military, stationed in Wichita Falls TX. The husband was headed for Iraq. I have 2 sons and their families who live in Wichita Falls one of my sons is named Paul same as my Fjordie. Not good reasons to buy a fjord or any horse unseen but it has ended up being a very good purchase. I like this gelding he moves well and is enjoying his training and is fun to watch him learning and trying to figure things out. I will start training him to drive this winter and who knows maybe I will have a pair to drive in a year or so, something I have long dreamed of. Happy Fjording Sue Crown Oak Fjords Sandia Park NM Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw Classified Ads: http://tinyurl.com/5b5g2f
Evaluations, Promotion, and More
This message is from: kelly MacDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Everyone, I have been crazy busy the last month or so. I spent three weeks in Ontario, preparing for and completing my Coach 1 Evaluation. The program, run though Equine Canada, is quite intense. I worked hard at it, and thank god Jaimie and my mother were here running things. They did a great job, and I wouldn't have been able to go without their support. It was very interesting spending so much time at someone else's barn, seeing how others do things. I learned SO much, and had a great time. The best part of the trip however, was picking up Sonny and driving back to Nova Scotia with my father. We had a full trailer, two mares and Sonny. All three horses trailered like dreams, and were real troopers though our 22 hour drive. Prydarson (Sonny) has settled in beautifully. He's SUCH a nice horse, everything still feels a little surreal. I've been riding him everyday, and he's going really well under saddle. We'll start breeding in a few weeks, after he's had time to completely settle in. Sonny is now available both live cover and through AI. Contact me personally for more information on breeding to Prydarson. Yesterday I had an interesting phone call from the Can-Am All Breeds Equine Emporium. They invited me to participate in numerous breed demos with my Fjords, and even though it's short notice (it's only a month away), I agreed to participate. It should be a really great weekend. We're hoping to take four Fjords from my place, and we'll be joined by another Fjord owned my a friend of mine. We have a booth to set up to promote the breed.I'm looking for any printed material I can get, along with video's, posters, anything! Here is a link to the website promoting the show - http://www.canamequine.ca/. The evaluation we'll be hosting in July is also going to come quick. Anyone on the east coast should contact me as soon as possible regarding entry. We are SO excited this is taking place, and I'm working really hard to make it a success. I'll write more about it later, but please, anyone even thinking about attending - contact me! It's going to be a really fun, educational weekend. Pat Wolfe will be conducting an evaluation clinic prior to the evaluation - this alone is a great reason to make the trip! Finally - I'm looking for a well trained Fjord gelding for...my mother! She's ALWAYS been a hard-core quarter horse woman but finally, she has been converted. She rides western, and reay likes grey Fjords. If anyone knows of a well-trained, bombproof gelding for sale, let me know. She mostly wants to trail ride, have fun with her own horse, and possibly travel to some small schooling shows. Thanks for reading, and watch for more updates coming soon regarding the evaluation. Kelly MacDonald _ Find hidden words, unscramble celebrity names, or try the ultimate crossword puzzle with Live Search Games. Play now! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/212 The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations
This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> NFHR Evaluations 2007 There are still a few openings in the 2007 Evaluations. Please contact the coordinator if you need more information. Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer & Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Sophie Fiedler [EMAIL PROTECTED] 815-777-6008 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 509-258-7348 The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#documents The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Evaluations
This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Mark, The minimum number of horses needed for an evaluation is about 25. It depends on how many performance tests will be done as well as the cost of the facility and other details. We try to break even but we need to cover costs. This will be the 10th Midwest NFHR Evaluation and it will be held at La Crosse, WI - we don't use the fairgrounds at Blue Earth because it is very important to have an indoor arena and several other areas where some of the driving, draft and utility tests can be set up ahead of time. Moses Lake, Washington is a new show and they are combining it with their 1st evaluation. Libby and Moses Lake will probably alternate year. This will be the 3rd or 4th for Virginia. The Rocky Mountain Fjord Horse Club is sponsoring their 1st Evaluation in Greeley, Colorado. There has been lots of interest in these Evaluations so I think they will they will succeed. Even if you can't bring horses, we encourage you to come and observe the NFHR evaluation system in progress. Of course, volunteers are always welcome and this can be a great way to get a more thorough understanding of the evaluation process. The dates and contacts were on Digest #91 and will be on the NFHR website. If you need more information or have any questions, feel free to call or e-mail me. Sophie Fiedler 815-777-6008 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 20:42:05 -0400 From: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: NFHR Evaluations 2007 This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> What is the minimum number of applications that you mention? Also, will there be any other evaluations, such as Blue Earth or Libby? Mark Skeels The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
RE: NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> What is the minimum number of applications that you mention? Also, will there be any other evaluations, such as Blue Earth or Libby? Mark Skeels -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Green Valley Farm Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 10:39 AM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: NFHR Evaluations 2007 This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am reposting this, in case you missed it. The information will be on the NFHR website soon. The coordinators are in the process of mailing out Preliminary Applications. NFHR Evaluations 2007 The NFHR Evaluation Committee recommended and is pleased to announce that the BOD has approved the following evaluations pending the minimum number of participants sign up: Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer & Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Linda Syverson-Kerr -coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-526-6878 Phil Odden [EMAIL PROTECTED] 715-468-2780 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 509-258-7348 Karl Froelich You should receive a Letter and Preliminary Application from these coordinators if you live within their region. You can attend any evaluation. Feel free to contact the coordinator and they will be happy to make sure you are on the mailing list and answer any questions. The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I just posted about the evaluations and somehow deleted the link to access the Evaluation Handbook. If you don't have a copy, you are missing a great educational tool. You can down load the Handbook from www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#documents or you can purchase it from the NFHR for a fee. Sophie Fiedler Evaluation Committee The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am reposting this, in case you missed it. The information will be on the NFHR website soon. The coordinators are in the process of mailing out Preliminary Applications. NFHR Evaluations 2007 The NFHR Evaluation Committee recommended and is pleased to announce that the BOD has approved the following evaluations pending the minimum number of participants sign up: Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer & Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Linda Syverson-Kerr -coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-526-6878 Phil Odden [EMAIL PROTECTED] 715-468-2780 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 509-258-7348 Karl Froelich You should receive a Letter and Preliminary Application from these coordinators if you live within their region. You can attend any evaluation. Feel free to contact the coordinator and they will be happy to make sure you are on the mailing list and answer any questions. The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Evaluations in Moses Lake?
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:21 PM 4/17/2007, you wrote: This message is from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hey PNW Fjorders, Did I miss something here? Is there going to be an Evaluation associated with the August show, or at any other time? The NFHR has scheduled an Evaluation in Moses Lake on Aug 22 & 23, 2007. NFHR members will be receiving info about it in the US mail very soon. They entry package will be on the NFHR web site soon also. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Evaluations in Moses Lake?
This message is from: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hey PNW Fjorders, Did I miss something here? Is there going to be an Evaluation associated with the August show, or at any other time? Eileen in wonderfully springlike eastern WA The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
NFHR Evaluations 2007
This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> NFHR Evaluations 2007 The NFHR Evaluation Committee recommended and is pleased to announce that the BOD has approved the following evaluations pending the minimum number of participants sign up: Greeley, CO July 7-9, 2007 Beth Beymer & Sandy North - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303-651-3940 LaCrosse, WI August 11-12, 2007 Linda Syverson-Kerr -coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 608-526-6878 Phil Odden [EMAIL PROTECTED] 715-468-2780 Herndon, VA Aug 18-19, 2007 Margaret Bogie - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] 703-0817-9576 Curtis Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] 304-897-6627 Moses Lake, WA August 22-23, 2007 Dan Watanabe - coordinators [EMAIL PROTECTED] You should receive a Letter and Preliminary Application from these coordinators if you live within their region. You can attend any evaluation. Feel free to contact the coordinator and they will be happy to make sure you are on the mailing list and answer any questions. The Evaluation Handbook can be downloaded from www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#documents The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Evaluations for Education , Feedback and Growth
This message is from: "Ursula & Brian Jensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Dear List from Brian Jensen; I can thank Pat Holland for her comments on composite scoring regarding Conformation and Performance. The challenges of our original Evaluation committee was to find and design a system of scoring which assisted owners and breeders in selecting future breeding stock for their mares or stallions. Aside from the formal portion of the Evaluation of scoring for Conformation, is the Educational aspect for the owners, breeders, and other interested individuals. There is a comments portion at the bottom used by the Evaluators to make observations which would not be covered in other areas. These comments are usually of an educational nature. Education, knowledge, and information helps informed individuals make better decisions. It was decided at that time to separate Conformation and Temperament into their own categories. Ruthie mentioned that any form of an Evaluation is better than nothing. I agree. The NFHR Evaluation Program has always been a work in progress, and is open to new ideas or changes. In addressing the Temperament issue on where to place it in the Evaluation Program; I can tell you it was thoroughly discussed when the Evaluation Program was designed. The word Conformation has a specific definition about how the Fjord is put together which is called phenotype. This is what you see when looking at the Fjord. The Word Temperament is paramount to me as an Evaluator of Norwegian Fjords. The Performance Section of the Evaluation is all about, and for Temperament. The Fjord horse is known world wide for its mind or temperament. This is what sets this horse apart from others. Each section of the Performance Test is looking at temperament and tractability. The various tests of Riding, Driving, and Draft, evaluate the Fjords abilities and temperament. As well these tests recognize and support the versatility of the breed. When we designed the Performance Tests we recognized that it was not necessary to reinvent the wheel. The Evaluation Committee of that time looked to established tests in ADS, AHSA, FEI, and other known European designs. The thinking here was, that we could provide training and feedback for the Fjord and handler to improve themselves, grow and enjoy the fjord in its respective disciplines. As well, the mind or temperament of the fjord is Evaluated through the Performances of the various disciplines. In summary, the NFHR Evaluation Program provides an educational and informative Conformation set of scores and comments on Phenotype. In the Performance portion through the discipline tests it observes the Fjords mind in Riding, Driving, and Draft. The Performance Tests have two levels called Introductory and Advanced. These two levels represent a ladder of learning and training for the handler and the Fjord. Composite scoring assists the owner/breeder in making informed decisions for the future. The NFHR and its membership of Fjords and people have benefited in a positive way from the Evaluation Program. Brian Jensen Box 1032 Lumby, B.C. Canada V0E 2G0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.trinityfjords.com The FjordHorse List archives can be found at: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw
Re: Blue Earth - QH's past & evaluations
This message is from: Genie Dethloff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Pat, Is anyone from Washington state coming to BE? -- Genie Dethloff Ann Arbor, Michigan
Re: Blue Earth - QH's past & evaluations
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> if an evaluation system were in place 20 -30 years ago in AQHA, those breeders would have embraced the concept and the current QH might be a different horse today. Pat Holland. YES, IT COULD BE WORSE! ..as any kind of directional selection can paint a breed into an inbred corner. The QH is where it's at today because of eye pleasing phenotypical decisions made in the past, with little or no regard to genotypical thought... sound familiar? Evaluations will in no way prevent inbreeding, on the contrary, they promote it by the use of blue ribbons. Ruthie, nw mt
Re: Blue Earth - QH's past & evaluations
This message is from: "Pat Holland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi All, First I'd like to thank everyone who is supporting this years Blue Earth show, as of this date we have 83 horses coming and I am still getting a few stragglers in with entries. Despite thoughts that it'll be a small show, it appears we will be within the number we usually have on normal years. Last year we were closer to the 140 horse range, but that was out 20th Anniversary. It's going to be another great year and again I want to mention what beautiful trophies we have this yearthe cherry wood boxes and steins are really unique. I ordered extra steins, so later after the show if anyone would like to purchase one, as a keepsake - you can do so.See me at Blue Earth or contact me privately. I can email a picture of the trophies to you for you too look at.I am also offering the original picture I drew for the trophies for sale to the highest bidder - at the Midwest Fjord Horse Club meeting/dinner Sunday evening at Blue Earth. The money received from the picture will go to the MWFHC. On another note - when I first learned what an evaluation did and was used for, I too wished the old QH industry had gone in that direction. It is a wonderful tool and might have prevented some of the current issues in the QH industry. So much of the success & popularity of certain Quarter Horses and bloodlines were determined thru show placement and politics. But within the QH world there were many very dedicated breeders, some founders of AQHA that tried to hold and preserve what the QH originally was - sometimes I think if an evaluation system were in place 20 -30 years ago in AQHA, those breeders would have embraced the concept and the current QH might be a different horse today. See you all in Blue Earth.soon! Pat Holland.
NFHR Evaluations
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just an FYI - The pre entry forms for the Libby Evaluation are in the mail. The ones for the Spencer, MA evaluation will be in the mail in a day or so also. If you are interested in bringing a horse(s) to either of these please get your pre entries in as soon as you can so the planning can get going. If you want to bring a horse(s) & don't get a form please let me know & I will see that you get one. Mike === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bits & Evaluations
This message is from: "Green Valley Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bits & Evaluations Re: Pat Holland's question The oldest NFHR Evaluation Handbook that I have is from 2002. Riding English: Any bit approved by USA Equestrian Dressage rules ( which would mean snaffles only) I would guess that in the early years of the Evaluation bits were not checked. They are to be checked by a Technical Delegate and until recent years a person was not assigned this responsibility. I'm sure Mike May will have old copies and we can see what the original rules said. By the way Pat, in 2001 you rode Sabrine in a full cheek snaffle for the Evaluation. I thought Wayne Hipsley's reply (#109) on bits was most informative and from the responses on Digest #110 so did many others. Hopefully this discussion will lead to more educational information in the Herald, on the digest and in mini clinics at regional shows such as Blue Earth. I will keep you posted after our discussions at the Evaluation Committee meeting on May 23rd The NFHR Evaluation Handbook and the NFHR show rules are available on the NFHR website or www.nfhr.com/newsinfo.html#Documents These two articles are very informative. You don't have to read them page for page but use as a reference when you have a question. Sincerely, Sophie Fiedler >Subject: Re: fjordhorse-digest V2006 #109 >This message is from: "Pat Holland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sophie Fiedler wrote: > in late 2004 and in 2005 the rules were NOT changed but pictures and > better > descriptions ** At the 1998 & 2000 Evaluation in Blue Earth I rode horses with a kimberwick in intro and advanced english riding,.which went to earning their Medallions of Quality - why were they accepted then and not now - - if the rules were NOT changed. Could it be that the original designers did allow for such bits to be used?
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ah, but the a Kimberwick DOES come in a low port. And if used on the full ring or the upper slot, there is no leverage. So... Why does it not qualify as a snaffle? According to what I understand from reading the USEF/USDF rules, the problem with the kimberwicke is that the reins can be attached to provide curb action. The fact that a person could choose to use the bit without curb action is irrelevant as far as the USEF/USDF rules are concerned. DeeAnna
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 5/16/2006 10:22:12 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Guess what? I have a 6 yo mare who has nothing noticeable or technically wrong w/ her mouth + palate, (even did a bit seat for her) but she is VERY sensitive and really dislikes the snaffle. OK, I'll come out of the closet and admit it... I use a Kimberwick!! Several in fact, in both my riding and driving bridles. I too found that my mares resisted and showed a real dislike for a "regular snaffle" bit with it's jointed mouth. Definition of snaffle... Most people think anything with a jointed or "broken" mouth piece is a snaffle. not so. A snaffle, as defined in a few VERY old books I had the privilege of perusing as Small Farmer's Journal when I worked there, is a bit which has a direct pull from the mouth piece to the hand (meaning no leverage). So, a "snaffle" can have just about any type of mouth piece. My horses happen to prefer a low port mouth. Try finding an Eggbutt with a low port mouth! Ah, but the a Kimberwick DOES come in a low port. And if used on the full ring or the upper slot, there is no leverage. So... Why does it not qualify as a snaffle? Just wondering... Amy Amy Evers Dun Lookin' Fjords 260 May Creek Rd Days Creek, OR 97429 541-825-3303 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lori and everyone else who reads this list and is concerend about this, I think we need to remember that we are not trying to do a 'pure' dressage test, nor a 'pure' western test...I thought the intent of the evals was to make the testing accessible to most fjord owners, not you and i and the others who train + show on a regular basis.. If i was going to show at a recognised dressage show of course i would comply w/ the equipment rules, but if someone regulary rides his/her fjordhorse in a pelham, and does do correctly, who gives a hoot? I would rather see a happy horse in a pelham than one hanging and gapping open mouthed in a snaffle. Guess what? I have a 6 yo mare who has nothing noticable or technically wrong w/ her mouth + palate, (even did a bit seat for her) but she is VERY sensitive and really dislikes the snaffle.Any broken mouthed snaffle. She is a champ in the bosal, and that is how i have been training her, espeically on her lateral work. Now would i be able to show her western in a bosal,? No, as she is 5+ years old. Do I think it sucks? Yes. But that's ok, I will proceed w/ her training and get her in the bridle. There is alot of refinement and subtlety w/ a bosal, and also the opposite if one needs it. Same goes in a curb bit. So why have some arbitrary rule that sticks blindly to pure dressage for our NFHR tests? Its NOT a dressage competion...Its a place to take a trained horse between the ages of 3-? and show the judges that said horse is capable of the tasks presented to him by the level of the NFHR test, not the USDF! I believe the test also is described as an 'English' test, so that being what it is, under english tack, a curb bit IS accepatble. So why is there this resistance? Some of you may not know or remember, but I was once a part of the original Eval comm. years ago, and this was one of the main concerns brought up during the design of the tests, that they NOt be over-technical, and be easy to interpret and execute by an average person who rides frequently, but be able to demonstrate the horses movement and trainability. If someone feels their horse is best shown in a Kimberwick over a snaffle in the Intro test, do it. Or a Pelham for the adv. tests. I have been out of the loop for a long time, but I feel the point that Pat and others have brought up is a very valid one and needs examining. Guess I have buried myself into a hole in the eyes of some of the purists out there, but oh well ;~) To each his own 'bit' - as long as the horse is happy, and the rider + horse are working as a team. Kmac Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevada
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Pat Holland wrote: At the very least, we whom have the experiance and knowledge of the discrimination understand it. Those making the rules apparently do not. I was a member of the evaluation committee when the issue of bits for English tests was reviewed. I believe this took place just over one year ago, and was a result of requests for clarification by members. Anne Appleby was also a member of the committee when this rather extensive discussion was held. I do not know what you mean by "we whom have the experience and knowledge of the discrimation understand it." I have been riding since I was 11 years old (whoa, that makes 30 years). I have ridden in all types of English riding except saddleseat. I understand the use of bits in english riding, and it is much easier to make a horse "look" trained in a bit with leverage. You cannot fake it in a snaffle. I missed part of this list discussion, but my feeling is if you are attempting to demonstrate that your horse is either trained, or not, a snaffle bit provides a level playing field. In any warmblood registry performance test (horses bred for the Olympic disciplines) a snaffle bit is the allowed bit. Lori Lori Albrough Bluebird Lane Fjords Moorefield Ontario http://www.bluebirdlane.com
Re: bits allowed for evaluations
This message is from: "Pat Holland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > We polled other trainers/owners and Wayne Hipsley, the chief > evaluator, and all were in agreement that other bits should be > allowed--that the bit component of the rules needed to be > re-evaluated--especially for the advanced tests. After all, other > bits > are allowed in driving and the western tests. Very well put Ardeth, This has been a concern of mine and a few other trainers for several years. You are not alone on your observations. I do not know how to get the rule changed. I also brought it to the attention of a evaluation committee member last year at Lacrosse and nothing has changed. At the very least, we whom have the experiance and knowledge of the discrimination understand it. Those making the rules apparently do not. I'm with you Ardeth - but have no clue how to change it. Pat Holland
Re: Carol's DVD Evaluations, Excellent Idea!
This message is from: Starfire Farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That being said, I would be curious as to why exactly we are seeing repeat scores for specific Fjords. Is this occurring because the owner/breeder is evaluating the animal as a yearling, 2 year old, then as a mature horse? Sometimes, yes. In Norway they look at the youngstock at the regional shows, then look at the stallions as 3 year olds, take them into the stallion testing at 4 years old and re-evaluate them (including the criteria of the quality of their offspring) at 8 years old. In our experience, we had Obelisk evaluated as a three year old. At that time, the evaluators said that he was from a line that was known to mature at a later age and that they would appreciate seeing him again in the future. He received an overall score of 79 at that evaluation. The following year I wanted to begin his performance testing, so took him again. He had matured greatly during that year (he had grown a full inch in height!) and had filled out in his body, so, (with the idea of being in keeping with the Norwegian system) I entered him again in the conformation as well as the performance. At that evaluation, he received an overall score of 83.5 (and earned his Silver Medallion level 1.) A few years later, I felt he was ready to tackle the Advanced performance tests, so went ahead and entered him in the conformation again. Mostly out of curiousity, since the two evaluators for this evaluation were the same who had seen him as a three year old, plus, I believe in supporting the evaluation by entering horses. His overall score at this evaluation was lower than the second one, 1/2 point here and 1/2 point there. His walk was not as good that morning; he had sustained an injury to his, shall we say, private parts, from a mare one month prior to the evaluation (which ended up taking 6 months to completely heal - just so you don't feel sorry for him, my vet recommended exercise as the best way to help him heal) so he did not present in hand as well as before. Things can be different on a different day. In addition, two of his offspring (three year old mares) were presented at that evaluation. One earned a blue ribbon, the other a high red. He did go on to earn his Gold Medallion level one in performance. The only test left I would like to complete with him is the Advanced Western. Not for any other reason than my own self satisfaction. Was I disappointed? No. Was the outcome as I had expected, yes. Or is this because the mature horse did not recieve the coveted BLUE and therefore, keeps on evaluating until this happens? I hope that the implication here is not that, if you keep bringing your horse back you will receive a blue ribbon in the conformation category. It's not true. If you look at the Record Books, you will see that there are repeat horses that started out in a particular "ribbon color" (if you will) and have stayed there. There are some that have increased their scores and there are some who's scores have decreased. ...the evaluation system as it stands now does not evaluate for one of the trademarks of the breed-DISPOSITION. If you are striclty speaking about the Conformation evaluation, this is true. If you are including the performance tests along with the conformation tests, I beg to differ. The score categories of the performance tests include Submission, which factors in Attentiveness, Confidence, Obedience, Stability and Willingness to Work (these criteria are listed as guidelines withing the scoring category.) These factors DO show as observable criteria during a performance test. As an evaluator, one has to ask oneself if some of the behavior might be due to rider/pilot experience and skill, or environmental stimuli, or otherwise. One question to try to answer is whether the SYSTEM allows for evaluation of the Genetic Potential for the horses to be the kind horses that we desire as Fjord horses. As far as a single horse is concerned, I believe that the introductory tests show this potential the best, in the case of young horses (say, a 4 to 6 year old.) If one is looking at the prospect of a single individual affecting the performance aspects of the entire breed, one test, or set of tests (completed by one horse) is not going to entirely give you this information. It will take a number of tests, performed by a number of related offspring, to tell one more about the disposition and performance potential for a particular line of horses. As Ruthie, said, our system is very young, so we, at this point, don't have as much information to fall back upon as, say, the Norwegians might have at this time, within the NFHR evaluation system. However, we DO have anecdotal information, or information documented with the NFHR in the form of the other awards offered, regarding Fjord horses that have been used as performance horses, or demonstration h
Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> One just needs to look at the photographs used in advertisements in the Herald to see the absurdity of this suggestion. The majority of pictures, other than those obviously shot by a professional photographer or very talented amateurs, leave much to be desired in the way of composition and quality, to say nothing of how few truly reveal the horses' conformation. So why think that the owner produced video could hope to stand up to the work done for the owner who could afford to hire a top videographer who was familiar with shooting horses? And the same geographical problem of access to to live Evaluations would crop up in the question of access to good video production companies. If you don't think this is a problem, just watch locally produced TV ads in various parts of the country. I believe this suggestion would skew the whole process in favor of deep pockets with close proximity to major media centers. -- Steve McIlree - Pferd, Skipper & Clust - Omaha, NE/Las Cruces, NM, USA From each according to his culpability, to each according to his greed. --Arianna Huffington
Re: (was I'm impressed) Evaluations funtion is....
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think that the most important function of an evaluation is education. Therefore, I think it important that people who won't be able to have their horses evaluated, who are breeding horses, at least make an attempt to educate themselves about good conformation and movement in order to include this information in their selection criteria for breeding matches. Beth / Starfire Farm YES, YES, YES 100%!!! KMac Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees
Carol's DVD Evaluations, Excellent Idea!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello to everyone, I think Carol has an excellent idea that should be explored thoroughly. There are numerous reasons why, all of which have already been discussed. That being said, I would be curious as to why exactly we are seeing repeat scores for specific Fjords. Is this occurring because the owner/breeder is evaluating the animal as a yearling, 2 year old, then as a mature horse? Or is this because the mature horse did not recieve the coveted BLUE and therefore, keeps on evaluating until this happens? Regardless of the reason, it is a fallacy to indicate that only evaluated high scoring Fjords are good choices for breeding prospects because the evaluation system as it stands now does not evaluate for one of the trademarks of the breed-DISPOSITION. Without a good disposition, the BLUE means absolutely nothing when preserving the breed. Carol's idea of a DVD type of evaluation could open the doors to allowing this important facet of the Fjord breed type to be observed. More time could be spent on the DVD, therefore giving the evaluators more time to ascertain temperament. I also firmly believe that most reputable Fjord breeds DO educate themselves thoroughly before breeding. To assume otherwise is ludicrous for we have some outstanding Fjords in this country, all due to the careful and meticulous breeding practices of Fjord breeders, regardless if they attend NFHR evaluations or not. Lynda In a message dated 2/8/2006 5:35:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think that the most important function of an evaluation is education. Therefore, I think it important that people who won't be able to have their horses evaluated, who are breeding horses, at least make an attempt to educate themselves about good conformation and movement in order to include this information in their selection criteria for breeding matches. Beth / Starfire Farm YES, YES, YES 100%!!! KMac Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees Thanks much, references are available. Lynda and Daniel Bailey's White Cloud, MI 231-689-9902 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hometown.aol.com/baileysfjords/index.html
Re:DVD Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia --- Karen, This discussion has been interesting with lots of informed, polite input. -- That is, up until now with your inflammatory comments. Regarding my comment about not likeing to trailer horses. -- I think it was obvious to most people that I was tallking about Arthur and I personally trailering horses, something we haven't done much of, and something I personally fret about. -- When we ship horses for customers, we use a PROFESSIONAL HAULER. Men who have big equipment, and who do this for a living. Regarding your comments about Beaver Dam Farm participating in Evaluations. -- No we haven't! Which is precisely why I'm interested in DVD Evaluations. -- We've never been able to go to an Evaluation because of DISTANCE, and the fact we run a seasonal business. Regarding your comment that our interest in DVD Evaluations "might seem a bit self serving" . . . Well, of course, it would be very self serving. DVD Evaluations would allow us to get all our horses evaluated, which if you understood the purpose of Evaluations, you'd know that's what it's all about. Regarding your comment that . . . "doesn't it figure that this individual (me) could spare some time and expense . . . " -- No, it doesn't figure! We work for a living. Now, hopefully, we can get back to the excellent discussion we've been having. -- And whether or not my idea of DVD Evaluations ever comes about, it seems to me that valid, workable ideas have surfaced that will likely prove beneficial to the Registry and to the breed as well. Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Ron & Sherrie Dayton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, February 6, 2006 11:16 am Subject: Virtual Evaluations > This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hi all, > PNGPG also does clinic's Brian and > Ursula have > video's from past Evaluations that show the patterns and what needs > to be > done to present your horse PNPG has done a good job in trying to promote Fjords and make these events available What about recording these actual evaluations and making them available to the membership as part of or in addition to the training DVDs? > clinics. I tried to get to the one PNFPG held in Washington and also considered Libby. That is my area but I would only be able to bring one or two horses and it is a long haul . To do a horse justice takes more than a week( 2-4 days to drive both ways, 1-2 to attend clinic and one to do evaluation and then several more for the show) > did a clinic for PNFPG it only cost about 30.00 per person for an > all day > classroom clinic with the video and lots of questions and answers > as well as > handouts to take with you. It was well worth the dollars that I > spent. I drooled over the clinic when it was announced. The planefare to get to the clinic sans horse was close to 800.00 from here. > > > Evaluation at > Libby in conjunction with the Libby 20th Anniversary show. The > dates would > be the 6th and 7th and the show would be the 8th thru the 10th. Case in point 6-10 days out of a work schedule. Or close to $1,000 per horse to transport commercially plus I have to get there. It is held just at the beginning of school for many of us ( I teach in the University). and I am in a neigboring state. I am not trying to be argumentative and I tried valiantly to get to the last evaluations and to Libby last year. VS put the final cabosh on that one . I salute those who can do it. It is a once every few years if ever event for some of us. So when we do, it would be nice to be very well for-armed with the types of things we are discussing here and maybe also have the advantage of a virtual evaluation system for some stock. Definitely would help overcome our distribution problems. Another but related topic. When you compare the number of stallions in North america with the Germans, Danish, Dutch and Norwegians, please remember that you are comparing apples to oranges. That comparison is equivalent spatially to having 50-60 stallions in Montana, another 30-40 in Wyoming, the same in each of Utah and Idaho. Quarter horses yes, Fjords, in your dreams. We have orders of magnitude fewer horses. AI is wonderful and I have used it on my horses for years, but, the number of fjord stallions available through AI is relatively small, you have to live clse to an airport and not everyone has the services of a good equine reproductive vet. Part of the allure of the Fjordhorse is its versatility and suitability for ordinary people, and that will be our ultimate market after we get done selling our breeding stock to each other. I agree with a previous lister that if it is too difficult or expensive to maintain the quality breeding, commerce will demand a less desirable way, or we will fail to promote the horses to the right people. Different circumstances call for different solutions and maybe this discussion will lead to constructive solutions which will address some of these problems, without dismantling the current system.. > > > >Kathy in Idaho
Re: DVD Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- I was just reading through the Digests I missed this weekend, and saw Kathy Spiegel's. I agree more evaluations might be the better route but the practical > considerations are sometimes enormous. > I will be traveling over 1100 miles one way in October. The only reason > that I would consider it at this time for this horse is because I will > be going to the event anyway. However I would NOT do it on a regular > basis because of both the expense and the risks to horse and driver. ~ "because of both the expense and the risks to horse and driver." -- "risks to horse and driver" hit a nerve with me because I am very very nervous trailering horses. I keep thinking of the poor horses encased in this rolling tin can, completely at the mercy of us, and everybody else on the road. And I think of the horrific horse trailer accidents I've heard about, and I swear that if we ever get where we're going and home again in one piece, that I'll never ever subject my horses to this again. ~~ Kathy also points out . . . > With a couple of horses a year, all profit AND operating expenses for a > small breeder could easily be gobbled up with evaluations ~~ This is certainly a valid point. What serious breeder who is trying to make a business breeding Fjords could possibly afford to go to more than one or two Live Evaluations 1,000 miles or more from home? -- ~~~ unless they > were restricted to only a few horses- which defeats the purpose of the > evaluation. ~ Having only one or two of a breeding farm's horses evaluated does defeat the purpose. -- Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
Re: DVD Evaluations a compromise
This message is from: "Lisa Wiley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am a dog breeder not a horse breeder. I know from breeding dogs there is nothing better than hands on. That isn't always possible and a video is very helpful when choosing breeding stock. I would suggest DVD evaluations be allowed for mares and stallions with a limited number of get. Once the stallion has reached that number they would need to get an in person evaluation to continue being used as a breeding stallion. This would safeguard the breed for things that might not show on a DVD evaluation. We all know how greatly one stallion can influence a breed. Lisa Wiley Turnabout Portuguese Water Dogs Connecticut State Director Ponies With Purpose FASTeam www.MyTurnabout.com www.CookiesAlaDuck.com
Re: DVD Evaluations - Why they should be considered . . .
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia Reasons why I think this is a serious topic for discussion and consideration . . . . #1 - WHAT ARE THE PURPOSES OF EVALUATIONS? * To monitor and protect the breed. - For instance, noticing that certain stallions or mares are producing horses with undesirable characteristics. -- Or . . . that certain stallions are producing very desirable characteristics; such as good necks, good hocks, big eyes, etc. * Identifying horses that come close to the breed's "Ideal". (Breed Type) * Identifying horses that do not have sufficient Breed Type. * To educate horse owners giving them advice and guidance they need when making breeding and/or training decisions. * To give prospective buyers much needed information so they can make intelligent purchase decisions #2 - WHY WE SHOULD EVALUATE THE ENTIRE FJORD POPULATION IN NORTH AMERICA - (or as many as possible) * Because -- Even unknown stallions breeding in far off places can have an important impact on the breed for better or for worse. * Because -- An evaluated Fjord can be worth more dollars than an unevaluated one. * Because -- The whole purpose of Keurings (Evaluations) is to inspect the entire population of the breed. - The more Fjords evaluated across the country, the clearer the picture becomes of what's happening to the breed in North America. -- * Because -- It's important to evaluate the young stock - weanlings, yearlings, 2 yr. olds, 3 yr. olds.-- This will only be possible using DVD as most people don't bring foals to an Evaluation. They bring their stallion, or best mare. One of the most important reasons all foals should be evaluated is to identifiy the colts who "might be" stallion candidates. -- Talk about losing good genetic material . . . . Just think about all the colts that have been gelded when they might have been outstanding breeding stallions. *** conversely, the colts that were kept intact that should have been gelded early. -- * Because -- It's important to identify the pluses and minuses in both colts and fillies -- This information is invaluable to breeders and owners and buyers as they make future plans. #3 WHAT ARE THE CONCERNS ABOUT DVD EVALUATIONS? * That owners could alter the tapes - Well, I sure couldn't, and from what I'm told, it isn't so easy, and can be spotted. -- * That there would be no "hands on" by the judges. -- That's certainly a concern, but couldn't something be done about that? - For instance, the horse vet who stands by to inspect the teeth and testicles could also feel the legs for splints, puffiness, curbs. -- * Lori's comment that videos can be deceiving. Well, I suppose they can if the one operating the camera intends to deceive. However, every effort would be made in the way of rules and proceedure to eliminate that possibility. -- At Beaver Dam Farm, we buy and sell horses all the time on the strength of videos. -- I have to admit that I've received lots of really horrible videos that definitely do no justice to the horse. -- However, I have NEVER received a horse to the farm that looked worse than his video. Very often the opposite. -- If the horse looks great on the move (movement) in a video, then the horse has always proved himself great when he arrived at our farm. - In my experience, and it's been a long one, videos are extremely useful in judging horses. I guess one of the reasons I'm so keen on this idea is that we've used videos (and now DVDs) for all these years and done it successfully. People are always telling us that the horse they got from us is "much better" than described, and even better than they thought he'd be after seeing the video. -- To us, sending a prospective buyer a DVD is "in lieu" of a personal visit. In other words, we try and make the DVD as close to a personal visit as possible. If the horse stumbles, that stays on the tape. If he bucks, that stays on the tape, etc., etc. -- A well-made sales video - one that is very lengthy, and un-edited, shows the horse as he is. -- We show the horse in the stable. We show him in hand - We often show him in a "bombproofing" demo - We show him free lunging - We show him riding and driving. And we show the riding and driving in the open country and perhaps in the ring as well. -- Very honestly, it's been our experience that the sales videos are actually more valuable to the buyer than is a personal visit for most buyers. That's because, most buyers get emotionally involved with the horse during a personal visit,
Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, One thing that no one has touched on is that this is a very young system. As more horses are Evaluated there will be a larger pool of Evaluated horses to choose from. I don't recall that anyone has advocated that only Evaluated horses be bred. Yes there has been talk about breeding the best to the best, but that's always the way it should be. Personally I think that having a horse one on one with a couple of Evaluators for 10 or 15 minutes is a far better system anything else out there. Virtual Evaluations might be a useful tool for young stock. Young horses change so much in their first 3 years. I still think that fully mature horses need the hands on type of Evaluation that we have now. We need more trained Evaluators and regionally, trained people that can help organize and put on the Evaluations. PNGPG also does clinic's on how to present your horse for Evaluation, they're usually done at the Spring Meeting which gives everyone five to six months to prepare their horses and themselves. I know that Brian and Ursula have video's from past Evaluations that show the patterns and what needs to be done to present your horse as well as some examples of not "doing your horse a favor", it does your horse no good to take him or her out of the pasture a month before an Evaluation and take 50 pounds off them and then try and have them Evaluated. The horse needs to be worked and conditioned before hand as well as the handler needs to be in shape. The handler needs to be able to jog the horse at a good pace so the Evaluators can see the movement. I've seen the Evaluators ask and re-ask a handler to trot and re-trot a horse because they want to really get a good eye view of how that horse moves. They move around, they squat down at ground level to see how the hooves hit the ground, they really try and give every horse the benefit of the doubt, all of that would be lost with virtual evaluations. At the end of the day when they make their comments I've heard any number of times the Evaluator say "we just couldn't see the movement and so couldn't score them accordingly" or something like that. It wasn't for lack of trying on the Evaluators part. They do everything that they can do to have that horse presented in the very best light. The Evaluators comments at the end of the day would all be lost if we went to virtual Evaluations. The only person that would have those comments would be the horse owner. These comments are extremely educational to those that are present. A lot of first time Fjord owners can learn a lot by listening to the Evaluators at the end of the day. Evaluations are not just about having horses evaluated but EDUCATION as well. We would loose all the education that comes from the Evaluators comments as they are now done if we switched to virtual evaluations. I do think that an instructional DVD or Video by NFHR on Evaluations and how to prepare for them would be a good idea. It could be purchased by the clubs or individuals and then the clubs or groups that want to sponsor an Evaluation could have a meeting or get together and watch and learn from the DVD. If further info is needed then have a clinic with someone like Brian & Ursula, or Gayle or Anne or who every else in your area does clinics. It will cost a little but in the long run you and your horse will be better prepared and your horse will be Evaluated at his or her best, and that's the bottom line. IF I remember correctly the last time that Brian and Ursula did a clinic for PNFPG it only cost about 30.00 per person for an all day classroom clinic with the video and lots of questions and answers as well as handouts to take with you. It was well worth the dollars that I spent. As I stated earlier, this is a young system but I think that it is still the best thing going and it will continue to change and evolve as we go. Our Registry is only 25 years old! The Evaluation system is even younger. Give it time. Since we're on the subject of Evaluations, all of you in the west or anyone planning on being in the west in September, we are planning an Evaluation at Libby in conjunction with the Libby 20th Anniversary show. The dates would be the 6th and 7th and the show would be the 8th thru the 10th. If you're interested please let me know. Thanks, Sherrie
Virtual Evaluations - The Beginning of An Idea
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Everyone - From Kelly MacDonald at Beaver Dam Farm. - Trying for the 3rd time to get this through. This discussion about the Virtual Evaluations has been great, and for me, rather exciting. I love the idea of have the chance to have the BDF horses evaluated, and I know that Virtual Evaluations are probably the only way. I know first hand how impossible it would be to travel to an Evaluation. Throughout the discussion there has been good points (for and against), and it's great seeing all the positive support. I remind myself that it's only a basic idea right now. If enough of us decide that it's worthwhile to do, then we should work on specifics. It could also be another avenue for financial support for the NFHR. Instructional DVD sales and Evaluation fees could be set at a price where the Registry could make a profit. I'm sure it would still be less expensive than hauling to a live evaluation. The results from the virtual evaluations should be made public. I understand why they "should carry much less weight" than a live evaluation, especially with the points Lori Albrough made. However, the Virtual Evaluations should still be structured enough to hold enough merit to be made public. Sure it is a great educational tool for owners - but as Janne said - the gene pool will benefit from these evaluation results. The records will clearly state whether the results are through live or virtual evaluation and people can go from there. Those who don't like the idea of Virtual Evaluations can dismiss the results, those of us who like it can use the results to our (and our horses) benefit. To say that people might alter the video footage - airbrushing (?), editing, etc. - is a negative outlook, but yes it could happen. That kind of editing takes a LONG time, with complicated software programs. The altered footage would look much different from unaltered and the viewer (judges) would be able to pick up on that. There could be a rule that any suspicious video footage will be discarded, at the judge's discretion - no questions asked. Maybe the judge's would also be required a short course in Adobe Pro. As Ruthie and Solveig mentioned, the foal can grow out of minor flaws that occurred at birth. The lanky yearling can fill out and gain evaluation points. But - the opposite can also happen. The gorgeous and seemingly flawless colt may look like stallion material at six months. At two years he may have developed some flaws - and now he should be gelded. It's happened. Live evaluations sound like a blast. They do NOT have to be eliminated - far from it! I haven't had the pleasure of attending one - but Karen's description of "a true Fjord village" sounds so great. I'm am so excited to be attending the 25th Anniversary Show this year, and can only imagine the Fjord Village that will be. Anyways, back to the Virtual Evaluation idea - that's what it is, an idea. It is a good idea because it will (somewhat) level the playing field. It is a good idea because it will help increase knowledge and awareness of the good Fjords out there. There are horses that deserve to be recognized within the breed, and this seems like a fitting way to do it. Kelly MacDonald Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
virtual evaluations, stallions and stock show
As a relatively new Fjord owner, I'd love to be able to watch an educational video on evaluations to learn what the evaluators look for. It'd be great to have several different horses and a few different evaluators comment on each. I had the pleasure of watching an evaluation in Libby in 2005, I especially loved hearing the comments the evaluator made to explain his decisions. But one aspect of the evaluation itself doesn't seem like it would lend itself to "virtual realty" -- the "presence" (in the sense of demeanor, energy, attitude, not location) of each horse. Another thing that I'd also love to be able to see is a video containing pictures of some of the great stallions people have been discussing on the digest -- perhaps with pictures of some of their offspring as well. Not for breeding purposes but for general educational information. Sounds like some of these fjord gentlemen are getting older, it'd be wonderful to have a video compilation including them before it's too late. I'm hungry for fjord knowledge! Finally, the account of the Stock Show was incredible. Talk about magnificent ambassadors for the breed! Beth Beymer, Sandy North, the Starfire Farm and Green Valley Farm horses, and all riders and horses are to be commended! I wish they could take the show on the road! Beth German New Mexico
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia There was a lot of good discussion about this subject while I was away this weekend. There are a few points I'd like to make as well as respond to a few ideas and comments. First of all . . . . IS THIS A SOUND IDEA THAT WILL BENEFIT THE HORSES AND THE OWNERS? If so, let's examine it thoroughly, and figure a way to make it work, maximizing the positive aspects and minimizing or eliminating the negatives. I think we also have to remember that Live Evaluations are not perfect either. -- Very far from perfect! -- ThinkThese things will affect his performance, and very likely affect his movement. If the horse is nervous, he is not going to move out in a calm, relaxed way. He will not show himself as he really is. Other things that can happen at a Live Evaluation . . The horse has a bad day! -- He gets sick - colic maybe - He goes lame, or a little off -- How can you fairly evaluate him under those circumstances? - Is it fair to even try? -- There's a reason why in Norway they take a stallion to the Stallion Center and keep him for 8 weeks or whatever the time period is. - He gets to settle in. His handler/rider/driver gets to know him, and vice versa. -- The stallion gets to strut his stuff and perform in a now familiar lace. -- It's all very fair. == Very much unlike hauling your horse tremendous distances and showing under adverse conditions. Of course, this is also what the 100 Day Testing is all about in the Warmbloods. -- They take 100 days to get to know the stallion, and let the horse show what he really is. -- That's fair to the horse and the horse's owners. -- Nothing is perfect including Live Evaluations. In fact, if we think about it, we'll probably come up with as many cons with Live Evals. as with DVD Evals. For instance, an Evaluation held in the middle of horrible weather conditions. -- high humidity or extremely high winds with stuff whipping through the air all through the Evaluation. -- Is it fair to the horses and owners that those horses will be scored exactly as were the horses from last month's Evaluation which was held in ideal conditons? -- Despite adverse conditions, the scoring that goes into the record book will be based on what the judges saw on that day. That's all they can do. That was a good point Pat made about a judge often having to "feel" the horse. I'd thought of that as well, and that's where the vet on the premises comes in. He would have to be a horse vet.-- I certainly agree with Pat on that point, but don't agree with her that particular point is "why it won't work".It's a valid point, and something that would have to be worked out. I agree with Karen that blood should be taken to drug test in both Virtual and Live Evaluations. The vet on site would do that. -- The blood could even be centrifuged (or whatever they do with it to make it travel), and the tube could be sent to a NFHR designated lab for testing. We once sent blood from one of our horses to Holland for testing. The point several people made about foals changing is also valid. -- My thought on that is that Virtual Evaluations would allow people to evaluate their foals as weanlings, yearlings, 2 yr. olds, and 3 yr. olds. -- This is what's done in Europe for exactly the reason that's been stated. -- Young horses change all the time. I've inspected a lot of coming yearlings in Holland, and saw with my own eyes how a lot of A Premie weanlings sure didn't look like A Premies at almost a year. I've seen others that were judged B Premies as weanlings that as almost yearlings looked like A Premies. We had five fillies this year sired by Gjest. -- I think they're all great. One is WAY more than great! I'd love to have them all evaluated, but it's not going to happen. Just as it's not going to happen with a lot of other owners. -- Someone mentioned being busy from May - NOvember with farming. Well, we have a summer business that starts in the Spring and runs into the Fall. -- Absolutely no way we could truck horses to a show or Evaluation. EVALUATING CONFORMATION & MOVEMENT -- I think this is very do-able by using DVDs. -- PERFORMANCE TESTS -- I'm not at all sure about these. -- Perhaps something could be done, but I think the problems are fairly easy to envision. I don't see that there's a significant danger of fudging conformation and movement video. -- It would be a nother matter for performance tests. -- In my mind, conformation evaluation and movement evaluation is the most important part of judging breeding stock. -- Performance tests is a whole
Re: RE: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In my last post, I should have said the dvd evaluation of a single horse - two hours of photography would be $150.00. The production of a good video showing what Mark Skeels post suggested would be more - but certainly within reason and worth the price. Could the upcoming evaluation in October in Winona be a place to start getting some good video footage and a coordinated project going for a training DVD? I bet if I can find a good videographer in podunk Idaho that around Minneapolis it would be a snap.
RE: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would have to agree with the below comment, however I do think a video on the evaluation process, what prep, steps, views, all that other stuff that goes with evaluations would be a great tool to have in preparing for an evaluation, even if the virtual evaluation process doesn't work. I'm not talking a camera set in a corner watching someone do an evaluation, but rather, an evaluator, explaining everything, maybe with the use of a pointer stick to show good and bad conformation, positioning, gaits, head types, good legs, bad knees, all the other stuff, even how to trim the hoves for best stance and hair trimming that is allowed, that type of thing. As I said in my earlier post, I think some people just don't do the evaluations because of ingnorance and fear they will maybe look like a fool or do something totally wrong. I for one don't have the slightest idea how to show a horse in a evaluation, I know the pro's actually know how to shove the feet in the sand a certain way to overcome flaws, etc, yes these same people would probably use a camera to lie about their horse.I don't know, maybe evaluators have people reposition the horse if it looks like they are trying to beat the system which they wouldn't have the ability to do with a video. I'm sure if I took one of my horses to an evaluation the horse may get a lower score because of my lack of knowledge, where someone else that is into this evaluation stuff big time would get a better score on the same horse, just because they know what the evaluator is looking for. I also agree that a good evaluator should see thru this sort of thing, but unfortunantly showmanship does make a difference in evaluations too. Anyhow, I think people would pay maybe $30-60 bucks for a well done educational dvd on the subject done by a actual evaluator or two. About 4cents now. Mark Skeels -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 3:14 PM To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com Subject: Virtual Evaluations This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to agree with Lori about the huge problems of video in virtual evaluations. I think there is way too much ability for the camera to lie. The other aspect of evaluations is that it is NOT just conformation. There are performance tests for the medallions of quality. It would be nice to keep taping and taping and taping until I got a performance test I really liked! Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA 22737 http://ironwood-farm.com ***Fjords for sale: 2002 Brown Dun Mare, 2004 Grey Dun and Brown Dun Geldings, 2005 Red Dun Colt***
Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think this can be a good thing for those who can't or don't travel well. I know my mare is older,, but I would like her to go through the Evaluations again. However, I don't travel distance well anymore and would have to do such by Video. Having the NFHA set up a "how to" video would help a lot of people do the Video's Evaluations correctly. Shari In a message dated 2/3/2006 12:24:31 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "5 - If the majority of Fjord owners are shut out of the Evaluations by distance, time & money, then there will be only a small group of evaluated horses. The result of this will be a small, "elite" group of evaluated horses. -- This could be very dangerous in regards to the gene pool . I
Re: Video Evaluations
This message is from: "bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The video evaluation idea has a certain allure for helping to deal with the realities of our geography. However, I think it is hard to get a true picture of a horse from a video. Lori>> I JUST DID a quick search on horse evaluation DVD's and found a surprising large amount of related videos and DVD's out there.. it appears that horsy DVD's are already successfully done at a tidy profit. If it can be said that there is an element of favorable enhancement in filmed horses, per your quote, it would fairly be an equally distributed advantage for all. It comes down to the issue of serving the entire membership, or singly catering to a privileged minority who have surplus time and money in which to indulge their elitist preferences. It is asking ourselves which avenue of evaluating would most benefit the MOST Fjord horses. Remember the "seven last words" of a dying organization, "we've never done it that way before." Ruthie, nw mt us
Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to agree with Lori about the huge problems of video in virtual evaluations. I think there is way too much ability for the camera to lie. The other aspect of evaluations is that it is NOT just conformation. There are performance tests for the medallions of quality. It would be nice to keep taping and taping and taping until I got a performance test I really liked! I also raise warmbloods as well as Fjords. In my warmblood registries, the foals must be inspected prior to their yearling year and again at age 3 or older if being used for breeding stock. (I'm glossing over some fine points, but essentially, you HAVE to get inspected or not get papers.) Every year there are warmblood inspections all over the US. Most registries will have several of them in a state. Schedules are posted in advance so you can plan on which evaluation to attend. There are no video evaluations allowed -- you have to show up with the horse. For some breeders, that means some serious traveling. I do understand the problems we have with our current evaluation system. We need to have more of them throughout the country every year. However, as someone who has been on the host committee for the Virginia 2001 and 2004 evaluations, I can tell you that there is huge pressure from the NFHR not to lose money on an evaluation because of low attendance. The 2001 Virginia evaluation was held ONLY because several of us breeders pledged to pay any shortfalls. I believe that the 2005 CA evaluation had to do the same thing, but that's secondhand knowledge. I know that one evaluation was canceled in the last few years because the sign-up was low. Personally, I think the NFHR should hold more evaluations annually. The past delivery system seemed to resemble a "Brigadoon" model, with evaluations appearing and disappearing into the mists of time. I do think it is getting better. This year, I think I am taking our stallion to the Massachusetts evaluation for his conformation and intro tests. I'll probably send another Fjord with him simply because there is room on the trailer. It's not going to be convenient or cheap, but that's the closest evaluation that works with my schedule. Margaret Bogie Ironwood Farm Rixeyville, VA 22737 http://ironwood-farm.com ***Fjords for sale: 2002 Brown Dun Mare, 2004 Grey Dun and Brown Dun Geldings, 2005 Red Dun Colt***
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, I rarely enter into these comments about stallions, breeding etc. But I agree with you re foals and cite my Charley as an example. He was huge and the mare was a maiden. We had a struggle to get him out as she pushed. Because of his size his right legs were "windswept" and he was down on his hind pasterns. I can visualize a picture of him as a foal!! Yet he grew straight and went on to succeed in dressage until an injury sidelined him. Jean Gayle Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I personally like the idea of virtual evals, however if a foal is evaluated as a weanling, it should absolutely be evaluated again when it is older. Speaking from experience, weanlings can be perfect, and then change as they grow... I assume the opposite could also be true, but I don't have personal experience with that. In any case, I'm all for the betterment of the breed. Because of that I would have all three of mine evaluated - even [especially] the two that would score poorly. It's hard to not allow emotions into the equation, and I certainly don't want to hurt the breeder, but the fact of the matter is, knowing as much as possible - the good and the bad - about what stallions and mares produce is what's best for the breed. Jamie In the Mountains SW of Denver, CO
Re: Video Evaluations
This message is from: CHERYL GARNICA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> RE: Video eval: Certain aspects sound attractive. Lori made some good points. In person, could be the best or worst 15 minutes of your life showing your horse. If video, might turn into a bigtime screen production with airbrushing, retakes, big time editing. Probably either way may not be true picture of horse on daily basis, yet harder to hide faults in person I would think. Saw part of the Fallbrook evals. It was great to meet owners, see all the different fjords in person and watch the process. Also a nice way to introduce fjords to newbies...wouldn't that be missed if judging process went Hollywood??Might consider eval down the road for my (backyard!) gelding just for fun, but would want it in person with everyone's encouragement for our presentation jitters. Cheryl in S. Cal --- Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This message is from: Lori Albrough > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > The video evaluation idea has a certain allure for > helping to deal with > the realities of our geography. However, I think it > is hard to get a > true picture of a horse from a video. I will use > videos to help me > decide whether I want to go see a horse, but rarely > to make a final > decision on it, unless a trusted advisor of mine has > also seen the horse > in person. > > Steven Wolgemuth, US long-listed dressage rider, who > now helps people > find dressage horses domestically and overseas, had > this to say about > evaluating a horse from a video in a recent article > in Dressge Today > magazine: > > "Be careful not to judge a horse too harshly when > trying to evaluate his > overall quality. Videos can be the enemy of great > horses and a friend to > poor-quality horses. They can make great horses look > just a bit better > than average and bad horses look just a bit worse > than average." > > Before I read this article, I had already noticed > this "averagizing" > effect of the technology, both in making a great one > appear more average > and a not-so-good one appear OK, so it was > interesting to have this > observation confirmed. > > The other thing that video can do is make a "moment" > appear to sum up a > horse. The video viewer is missing a lot of context, > but can only judge > what he is seeing, whether or not it is an accurate > reflection of the > true animal. As Wolgemuth says, > > "A videotape can make a good or bad moment more real > than it truly is. > ... A horses unfortunate mistake, wrong step or > brilliant moment is not > a trusted normality, even if a video captured it." > > Wolgemuth uses this anecdote to illustrate how much > presentation can > influence perception of the horse, > > "I recently reviewed a video of a beautiful, > refined, light bay gelding > with long legs and light, lovely, sweeping gaits. He > was being ridden in > white polo wraps on a sunny day in perfect footing > in a beautiful > outdoor arena. Moments later, the tape switched to a > dark brown, chubby, > short-legged, average-moving horse. To my surprise, > it turned out to be > the same horse. The second part of the tape was > filmed under poor > lighting in deeper, wet footing and the horse had no > leg wraps. The > difference was incredible. I was again reminded how > the camera can > radically distort reality." > > My experience is that "being there" allows the > person who is evaluating > the horse to form a much more balanced and realistic > picture of the true > animal. I already believe that there is no way that > "15 minutes on the > triangle" can sum up the value of a horse, but can > only give us one more > data-point about him. I would certainly not give > even that much credence > to an evaluation that was purely virtual. The > free-lunging vs in-hand > gait analysis definitely presents another important > viewpoint, though > live-in-person would be my preference. (The > free-lunging was one of my > favorite /most-useful-to-me parts of the Norwegian > stallion evaluation) > Is a virtual evaluation better than nothing? > Probably as an educational > tool, yes, but let's not make it into something more > than it can ever be. > > Lori Albrough > Moorefield Ontario
Re: Video Evaluations
This message is from: "Vanessa N Weber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Lori, Thank you for this. I know little about evaluating horses, but I know from having bred dogs for 20 years, how different a dog can look in a photo or video, from how it can look and feel in person. Many years ago I bought a video converter, capable of playing and recording tapes into all the worldwide formats available. At the time I was doing a lot of importing. Despite the technology I was very dissapointed with some of the dogs I received that had great looking videos. In France, there is a process of confirmation (not conformation), whereby a dog is evaluated at a certain age or beyond by three judges who submit their reports. Perhaps a questionnaire submitted by three different judges who are recognized by the AHSA or some similar organization, along with a video could do the trick. The questionnaire could be geared toward basic type and movement issues that would circumvent problems of people not very familiar with the breed. Hard to say, but as I said before, I'm not a horse judge. I received my judging license in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels about a year ago so I am perhaps a bit familiar with the process of judging, but certainly not in Fjords per se. Vanessa N Weber Kenjockety Spaniels (new owner of 5 Fjords) ---Original Message--- From: Lori Albrough Date: 02/03/06 11:01:56 To: Fjord Horse Mailing List Subject: Video Evaluations This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The video evaluation idea has a certain allure for helping to deal with the realities of our geography. However, I think it is hard to get a true picture of a horse from a video. I will use videos to help me decide whether I want to go see a horse, but rarely to make a final decision on it, unless a trusted advisor of mine has also seen the horse in person. Steven Wolgemuth, US long-listed dressage rider, who now helps people find dressage horses domestically and overseas, had this to say about evaluating a horse from a video in a recent article in Dressge Today magazine: "Be careful not to judge a horse too harshly when trying to evaluate his overall quality. Videos can be the enemy of great horses and a friend to poor-quality horses. They can make great horses look just a bit better than average and bad horses look just a bit worse than average." Before I read this article, I had already noticed this "averagizing" effect of the technology, both in making a great one appear more average and a not-so-good one appear OK, so it was interesting to have this observation confirmed. The other thing that video can do is make a "moment" appear to sum up a horse. The video viewer is missing a lot of context, but can only judge what he is seeing, whether or not it is an accurate reflection of the true animal. As Wolgemuth says, "A videotape can make a good or bad moment more real than it truly is. A horses unfortunate mistake, wrong step or brilliant moment is not a trusted normality, even if a video captured it." Wolgemuth uses this anecdote to illustrate how much presentation can influence perception of the horse, "I recently reviewed a video of a beautiful, refined, light bay gelding with long legs and light, lovely, sweeping gaits. He was being ridden in white polo wraps on a sunny day in perfect footing in a beautiful outdoor arena. Moments later, the tape switched to a dark brown, chubby, short-legged, average-moving horse. To my surprise, it turned out to be the same horse. The second part of the tape was filmed under poor lighting in deeper, wet footing and the horse had no leg wraps. The difference was incredible. I was again reminded how the camera can radically distort reality." My experience is that "being there" allows the person who is evaluating the horse to form a much more balanced and realistic picture of the true animal. I already believe that there is no way that "15 minutes on the triangle" can sum up the value of a horse, but can only give us one more data-point about him. I would certainly not give even that much credence to an evaluation that was purely virtual. The free-lunging vs in-hand gait analysis definitely presents another important viewpoint, though live-in-person would be my preference. (The free-lunging was one of my favorite /most-useful-to-me parts of the Norwegian stallion evaluation) Is a virtual evaluation better than nothing? Probably as an educational tool, yes, but let's not make it into something more than it can ever be. Lori Albrough Moorefield Ontario - - Text inserted by Panda Platinum 2006 Internet Security: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://127.0.0 1:6083/Panda?ID=pav_1&SPAM=true - -
Video Evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The video evaluation idea has a certain allure for helping to deal with the realities of our geography. However, I think it is hard to get a true picture of a horse from a video. I will use videos to help me decide whether I want to go see a horse, but rarely to make a final decision on it, unless a trusted advisor of mine has also seen the horse in person. Steven Wolgemuth, US long-listed dressage rider, who now helps people find dressage horses domestically and overseas, had this to say about evaluating a horse from a video in a recent article in Dressge Today magazine: "Be careful not to judge a horse too harshly when trying to evaluate his overall quality. Videos can be the enemy of great horses and a friend to poor-quality horses. They can make great horses look just a bit better than average and bad horses look just a bit worse than average." Before I read this article, I had already noticed this "averagizing" effect of the technology, both in making a great one appear more average and a not-so-good one appear OK, so it was interesting to have this observation confirmed. The other thing that video can do is make a "moment" appear to sum up a horse. The video viewer is missing a lot of context, but can only judge what he is seeing, whether or not it is an accurate reflection of the true animal. As Wolgemuth says, "A videotape can make a good or bad moment more real than it truly is. ... A horse’s unfortunate mistake, wrong step or brilliant moment is not a trusted normality, even if a video captured it." Wolgemuth uses this anecdote to illustrate how much presentation can influence perception of the horse, "I recently reviewed a video of a beautiful, refined, light bay gelding with long legs and light, lovely, sweeping gaits. He was being ridden in white polo wraps on a sunny day in perfect footing in a beautiful outdoor arena. Moments later, the tape switched to a dark brown, chubby, short-legged, average-moving horse. To my surprise, it turned out to be the same horse. The second part of the tape was filmed under poor lighting in deeper, wet footing and the horse had no leg wraps. The difference was incredible. I was again reminded how the camera can radically distort reality." My experience is that "being there" allows the person who is evaluating the horse to form a much more balanced and realistic picture of the true animal. I already believe that there is no way that "15 minutes on the triangle" can sum up the value of a horse, but can only give us one more data-point about him. I would certainly not give even that much credence to an evaluation that was purely virtual. The free-lunging vs in-hand gait analysis definitely presents another important viewpoint, though live-in-person would be my preference. (The free-lunging was one of my favorite /most-useful-to-me parts of the Norwegian stallion evaluation) Is a virtual evaluation better than nothing? Probably as an educational tool, yes, but let's not make it into something more than it can ever be. Lori Albrough Moorefield Ontario
Re: virtual evaluations
This message is from: "bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >... -- Don't you agree that as Bob van Bon once said - "The most important thing you can do for the breed in America is to > inspect the foals" --.>> Carol BOB van BON is renowned, his Fjord prowess of legendary proportion, as you have well portrayed him in the past ...but are you absolutely certain that's what he said? (or how he said it) Because it seems to me it would have been MORE important to inspect the parent machinery, before you got down to product quality? It's been our experience that marked changes occur in development between foalhood and three years of age. Sometimes, what might be interpreted as a minor flaw at birth, has a way of correcting itself with time. I have never known of a Fjord foal to have a problem with teeth and/or testicles but I would imagine that they, like other breeds and humans, have development that is individualized and therefore not subject to timed requirement. Didn't someone just technically verify that an improper bite can aright itself with development? As far as testicles go, which is a major subject in dogdom, it has not been scientifically verified that cryptorchism is hereditary, or that breeding one would be detrimental. Although most breeds forbid it, there is no substantiation for disallowing it. But I digress. I've been following the DVD chain of thought and it sounds like there's a lot of interest out there, but I don't agree on foal evaluating at all. I think our vets would rebel if we drug them out here to participate in a DVD, while they have more pressing matters to attend to (worse, they might even laugh at us). Using my imagination here.. a foal might have a difficult delivery and be somewhat compressed or traumatized, but given time, everything would mend itself. Not every living thing enfolds in the same precise pattern, just as your roses are all unique. If the time ever comes when Fjords are all "cooky cutter" foals... we are in "deep doo-doo," because it will mean that the breed has reached the horrific state of homozygosis. So let's always be trying to rectify the culling mentality. That foal that is slow to drop its testicles, or whose bite might be somewhat occluded, might be a vital piece of genetic material; the very contingency for future breed vigor. Of course I realize we are just brainstorming here.. in the doldrums of a late winter, but isn't this our best (and only) opportunity! maybe someone is taking notes, on what may turn out to be a wonderful turn of events for the Fjord. It seems that the DVD idea would be a most effective teaching tool for every Fjord owner. On a different subject... I missed last week...regards "reasons for gelding a stallion"-- I submit the best reason of all: when a stallion has maxed out their reasonable breeding quota. (in the interest of breed genetic health.) Ruthie, nw mt us
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Pat commented . . . To change the subject somewhat...about a DVD for Evaluations..ok idea, but I would miss the event and "live show"..yea its expensivebut the fun we have keeping each other calm, the barn jokes, the dinners at midnight, the numbness we usually all feel waiting, the lack of sleep, the black fingers (from hoof black)...opps can't do that anymore...well just the fellowship, live and in person is hard to beat. > ------ I think the live Evaluations should and will continue. The NFHR is one big organization with members and Fjords all across North America. -- There's no way the majority of owners and breeders can get their horses to Evaluations. And as I said previously, just because of the distance and the expense, those that do make the trip, are not going to be able to bring all their horses. They will bring their best horses because they want to show them off and and have their opinion of the horse(s) verified. -- While the young ones, and the questionable quality ones will be left on the farm for nobody to see. Pat, aside from losing out on the "fellowship" of a live Evaluation, what do you think about the idea? -- Don't you agree that as Bob van Bon once said - "The most important thing you can do for the breed in America is to inspect the foals" -- Someone wrote to me privately that Virtual Evaluations is a "win/win" dea. --- Everybody is better off, but most particularly the Fjord breed, whose welfare and future is in our hands. I think the most important thing is for members and the BOD to discuss and decide if it is a positive idea. That's the first step. -- After that, the proceedure and wrinkles can be worked out. Karen McCarthy chided me because I said I trusted the European judges I've known. -- I did not infer that U.S. judges can't be trusted. What I did mean was that we should be able to trust our NFHR Evaluators. If we can't, then what's the point either in live Evaluations, or Virtual? What's the point? Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
RE: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Skeels, Mark A \(GE Healthcare\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> What would be interresting, is to have some that are video evaluated, also evaluated live to see how similar the results were. I also think that it is a good idea. I think it would be of the best interest of the breed for the NFHR to invest in making a professional quality dvd of some actual evaluations and all the steps necessary for the video evaluation, etc. We could purchase a dvd if we would like to do these types of evaluations. Then of course, there would be a fee to actually get them evaluated, going to the evaluators and a small fee to the NFHR. Once you have the dvd, you wouldn't need to send it out with every evaluation package. All comments about movement, physical characteristics, breed standard, etc would be given by a professional evaluator and not the possible biased comments of any breeder, etc of the horses in the dvd. It would also be nice to see some examples of good conformation and movement, as well as not so desirable conformation and movement characteristics and told why they are good or not. It would even be nice to have a dvd like this even if we didn't evaluate, just so we could better judge our own horses. I don't know how many people actually have dvd video camera recorders, there are ways to take them from your 8mm or vhs recorder and tape them to a dvd recorder though. More high tech gadgets and toys!! Just my 2cents. Mark Skeels in Helena Montana
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Warren Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I Know that Parelli has some training done this way with their up and coming trainers. May be the wrong wordage but you get the idea. I bet somke good ideas could come from looking into that? Roberta
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everybody from Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- Arthur and I were sitting in front of the wood stove having our afternoon chai - which is something that's become a habit this winter. -- I started to tell him about my idea of Virtual Evaluations, and much to my surprise (because he really is an old cumudgeon), he thought it was a great idea. == Even Brilliant == He remembers about 26 years ago, when Bob van Bon told everybody at the Woodstock, VT show (and first U.S. Evaluation) that the most important thing we can do in North America is to "identify" and "inspect" our foals. -- Well, for some years now, the NFHR has required identification in order to register. First it was bloodtyping, and now DNA. -- That's a big step! -- But, there's never been a real attempt at Inspections. -- Yes, there are Evaluations at some places across the country, but think about it . . . . How many people bring foals? -- And isn't it the foals that need inspection the most? -- Van Bon thought so! Anyway, I really was surprised that Arthur didn't pick my idea to pieces, which is his wont. -- But, he didn't. He thought it a very workable project. We were talkling a little bit about the possible logistics. (Please remember that I said "possible"). -- Arthur thought the whole thing very workable. * The horse owner would apply to the Registry to do Virtual Evaluations on his own property. * He would be sent applications for each horse * He would also be sent instructions on exactly how he must present each horse for the camera. These could either be written or on a DVD. * A veterinarian would be required to be on site during the filming. The vet would certify that the horse's teeth were correct and also the genitals for males and females. -- He wouldn't have to stay after that part was done. * The inspection (evaluation) would go exactly as it's done in a live Evaluation - with the exception that the gaits would be judged in free lunging. * Three copies of the inspection on DVD would be mailed to ??? Probably the head of the Evaluation Committee -- or, to the NFHR. * Three judges would judge and record their scores and comments. * The scores would be averaged. * The scores would be communicated to the owner, and recorded in The Record Book -- just as in a live Evlaution. But, with a notation that it was a Virtual Evaluation. += I see this mostly for conformation and gait evaluation, which to me, is the most important -- + The advantages of Virtual Evaluations is that owners could get all their youngstock evaluated. This would enable them to make important decisions in a timely manner. -- Decisions like - to geld or not to geld. -- To keep a filly for breeding, or to sell to a performance home. -- Decisions like - Was this a good cross (mare & stallion) or not? -- Sometimes a judge will tell you not to ever breed that mare to the same stallion. Or, the opposite. I hope other breeders and owners see the simplicity and value in this idea, and will back it by notifying the Board of Directors. Kind Regards, Carol Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html .
Re: DVD/Video Evaluations
This message is from: Snowy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Another vote in total support of Video Evaluations, from southern B.C Snowy Mountain Fjords Lauren Sellars [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I really likethe idea of video/DVD evaluations. It levels the playing field. It is expensive to get to the evaluations. I have a friend who brought a young Rocky Mountain Horse. She had to make video of her horse after she got her trained, that showed the horse being saddled, mounted and ridden at all gaits. Alison Bakken in sunny Alberta where winter hasn't arrived
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Carole wrote: "I've mostly dealt with European judges, and I wouldn't for a minute question their honesty and impartiality." ...So Carole, perhaps we should have all european judges, to be insure that everything to do with an evalation of our horses will remain strictly honest and impartial? Uh HuhC'mon Carole, please rephrase that one. Couldn't let that zinger fly 'bye...not at this hour! Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees
Re: DVD/Video Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, I really likethe idea of video/DVD evaluations. It levels the playing field. It is expensive to get to the evaluations. I have a friend who brought a young Rocky Mountain Horse. She had to make video of her horse after she got her trained, that showed the horse being saddled, mounted and ridden at all gaits. Alison Bakken in sunny Alberta where winter hasn't arrived
Re: Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia -- Hi Solveig, So glad you like this idea. -- The thing is it's just a germ of an idea, but it does address the whole purpose of Evaluations, which is to evaluate as many of the entire Fjord population as possible in order to protect and preserve the breed. This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello everyone from Olivia Farm, Personally, we like the idea of DVD/Video evaluations. And we like even more the idea of adding free longeing to the evaluations. We have been talking for quite a while about the fact that our evaluators are pretty efficient at judging conformation and the movement they are shown, but that so often they are not shown the full potential of the horses movement. Free longeing would definitely help that out. Regarding the concerns you expressed, why couldn't there be an instructional DVD made showing exactly how the horses should be presented. This would be pretty much the same as all the pre-evaluation clinics that are held. However, if the person presenting the horse does not follow the methods and show the horse correctly, then the DVD would be returned asking for another try. But there are a few concerns. What happens when the person doing the free longeing doesn't know how to get the horse really moving? I have watched many a sales video, even ones made by good horse people, that never show the true potential of the horse. In a live evaluation this wouldn't be a problem, the evaluator would just ask for more trot or whatever, but by video they wouldn't have that option. What if the person on the video couldn't set the horse up properly? The evaluators couldn't ask for the horse to be repositioned, and you end up with bigger scoring problems than before. ~~~ I did propose "video" evaluations some years ago, but at that time nobody was interested. -- There are five things we must consider regarding our NFHR Evaluations, and the first is . . . #1 - The purpose of Evaluations is to preserve and protect the breed, and the only way to do that is to evaluate the general Fjord population. (as many as possible) #2 - Distance. time & money is going to prevent the majority of Fjords from traveling to Evaluations. -- #3 - If we don't allow video or DVD Evaluations, the majority of Fjords will not be evaluated. #4 - In this case, the few people who do travel to Evaluations will only bring their best horse or horses, which are precisely the horses that have the least need of Evaluations. -- #5 - If the majority of Fjord owners are shut out of the Evaluations by distance, time & money, then there will be only a small group of evaluated horses. The result of this will be a small, "elite" group of evaluated horses. -- This could be very dangerous in regards to the gene pool . I can certainly imagine the results of only a few "blue ribbon" stallions -- rather than the much larger group there might be if everyone had a chance to have their horses evaluated. Is this a good thing for the breed? -- Well, I think so! If you think it might be, let's please discuss it a lot more. -- And after our Digest discussions, then we'll have to send these ideas to the BOD for their consideration. Solveig said . . . But there are a few concerns. What happens when the person doing the free longeing doesn't know how to get the horse really moving? I have watched many a sales video, even ones made by good horse people, that never show the true potential of the horse. In a live evaluation this wouldn't be a problem, the evaluator would just ask for more trot or whatever, but by video they wouldn't have that option. What if the person on the video couldn't set the horse up properly? The evaluators couldn't ask for the horse to be repositioned, and you end up with bigger scoring problems than before. I think we just have to have honourable judges, and if we think they're not, then we better get some new ones. I've mostly dealt with European judges, and I wouldn't for a minute question their honesty and impartiality. Kind Regards, Carol Rivorie Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II, Ltd. Phone: 902-386-2304 Fax: 902-386-2149 URL: www.beaverdamfarm.com E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Raised by the Sea in Health and Tranquility" Visit our NEW Riding Vacation page on our website today! http://www.beaverdamfarm.com/pages/riding-vacation/index.html
Re: DVD/Video Evaluations
This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello everyone from Olivia Farm, Personally, we like the idea of DVD/Video evaluations. And we like even more the idea of adding free longeing to the evaluations. We have been talking for quite a while about the fact that our evaluators are pretty efficient at judging conformation and the movement they are shown, but that so often they are not shown the full potential of the horses movement. Free longeing would definitely help that out. But there are a few concerns. What happens when the person doing the free longeing doesn't know how to get the horse really moving? I have watched many a sales video, even ones made by good horse people, that never show the true potential of the horse. In a live evaluation this wouldn't be a problem, the evaluator would just ask for more trot or whatever, but by video they wouldn't have that option. What if the person on the video couldn't set the horse up properly? The evaluators couldn't ask for the horse to be repositioned, and you end up with bigger scoring problems than before. I'm not saying that we shouldn't consider it as an option. The more horses evaluated, the better feel we have for individual horses, bloodlines, and the breed as a whole. We are all for having more horses evaluated. However, we have to take into consideration that the problems with handling horses (one of the biggest issues in getting the fairest evaluation possible) wouldn't go away by allowing for video evaluations. On another point - I have been a sheep and livestock judge for some years now, and I'm here to tell you that just because the identity is kept "secret" or the handler changes doesn't mean the judge or evaluator doesn't know where the animal came from. You are never going to get around that issue. You just have to hope that the evaluators are being as impartial as they can be. Just some more food for thought, Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm (509) 258-7348 www.oliviafarm.com
Re: DVD/Video Evaluations
This message is from: "Olivia Farm, Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello everyone from Olivia Farm, Personally, we like the idea of DVD/Video evaluations. And we like even more the idea of adding free longeing to the evaluations. We have been talking for quite a while about the fact that our evaluators are pretty efficient at judging conformation and the movement they are shown, but that so often they are not shown the full potential of the horses movement. Free longeing would definitely help that out. But there are a few concerns. What happens when the person doing the free longeing doesn't know how to get the horse really moving? I have watched many a sales video, even ones made by good horse people, that never show the true potential of the horse. In a live evaluation this wouldn't be a problem, the evaluator would just ask for more trot or whatever, but by video they wouldn't have that option. What if the person on the video couldn't set the horse up properly? The evaluators couldn't ask for the horse to be repositioned, and you end up with bigger scoring problems than before. I'm not saying that we shouldn't consider it as an option. The more horses evaluated, the better feel we have for individual horses, bloodlines, and the breed as a whole. We are all for having more horses evaluated. However, we have to take into consideration that the problems with handling horses (one of the biggest issues in getting the fairest evaluation possible) wouldn't go away by allowing for video evaluations. On another point - I have been a sheep and livestock judge for some years now, and I'm here to tell you that just because the identity is kept "secret" or the handler changes doesn't mean the judge or evaluator doesn't know where the animal came from. You are never going to get around that issue. You just have to hope that the evaluators are being as impartial as they can be. Just some more food for thought, Solveig Watanabe Olivia Farm (509) 258-7348 www.oliviafarm.com
Re: Carol's Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Terry Hale" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sandy, I am still laughing. Your email is probably appreciated by the large majority of us mostly "lurkers" on the list. My fjord, Elvis, who saw fit to buck me off the first day I brought him home (ok, so the cows and the quad racing in his field might have upset him, not to mention the other horse and riding going off and leaving him alone with "me" on his back, the quad racing toward him and the weird cows fleeing from the quad), anyway, long story short, I haven't been on him since. 10 years ago it may have been a different tale. I have to tell you about Elvis however. I have 4 other horses, and the aforementioned 4 cows on the property. I turn them all out on weekends. They have large paddocks normally (horses). When the rain, winds come, it is time to get everyone back to their own "place", so out I go and mumble under my breath to those darned cows. Not my choice, but my husband's. Anyway, I treat everyone like my lab and think they should all go where I want them to go. Doesn't always work. Then I have to trudge back to the barn and get a rope or long stick thing and "herd" everyone. Last weekend, it was particularly messy weather here in the great Pacific NW and I just thought I could "click" everyone into place. I gave the cows their alpha to keep them busy, then the horses ran in from the back pasture/woods, and found the alpha and the cows spread. You get the picture. Well, these other horses you can only control with halters and lead ropes. I went into the group (probably not a good idea given this one cow) and grabbed the front mane of "Elvis" the fjord, and "clicked" him to come with me (away from alfalpha mind you). That says it all. He is such a good guy. I trudged him along through two gates and two paddocks, and back to his "place". He only got grass hay but he was fine with that. You know, I may never ride him. He's 6 and really needs someone who will. The gal I bought him from in Shelton, WA, rode him a lot. He loves to swim in Puget Sound. Tonight I gave him his treats. I also gave my Arab his treats. I'm a little more careful with the Arab. What I noticed about Elvis when I have given him treats is how careful and soft his mouth is. He sure can tell the difference between my hand and his treat. That's all. I just wanted to share. I enjoy the other stories from the rest of you. I think I am going to try to pack Elvis this summer. I am very confident with him on the ground. I just wish I was braver. The power came back on - we had quite a windstorm here. Take care. Do any of you belong to the Back Country Horsemen??? I think Elvis would enjoy that. Roni Graham, WA - Original Message - From: "Sandy Reiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 7:04 PM Subject: Re: Carol's Virtual Evaluations This message is from: "Sandy Reiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Sandy Reiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] As mostly a "lurker" on the list, and an owner (who will probably never ever compete) of a sweet, fat, Fjord gelding who lives far enough away from any evaluation events that we would probably never ever participate (tho it would be fun to see how my Gus...Glen Guard's Miracle...would do) because my fat little Fjord is scared to death of his cart (he probably started the barn fire last spring to get rid of it!)...I would try a virtual evaluation! Whew! Long sentence. For all the reasons everyone gave about why it would be good, I'd also like to add - besides the above sentence - it would be wonderful for us "backyard" Fjord people who don't/can't compete because it would give us (me!)... the extra push to get and keep my horse in shape. I would still want him to look his best - both in grooming the little mud-ball, and his physical condition. Wonderful incentive and Carol's idea would get horses listed that wouldn't be otherwise. I also applaud the idea of the judges not knowing the horse's name, owner or handler. I go to my sis's dressage competitions and know first hand that if all the horses were the same color, the riders faceless and nameless, and the judges had to judge only on what they saw in movements, precision, etc. of the test they are looking at - the outcome would be very different! The same people on lame horses wouldn't be winning.sorry, I digress. That's another soapbox.
Re: Carol's Virtual Evaluations
This message is from: "Sandy Reiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: Sandy Reiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] As mostly a "lurker" on the list, and an owner (who will probably never ever compete) of a sweet, fat, Fjord gelding who lives far enough away from any evaluation events that we would probably never ever participate (tho it would be fun to see how my Gus...Glen Guard's Miracle...would do) because my fat little Fjord is scared to death of his cart (he probably started the barn fire last spring to get rid of it!)...I would try a virtual evaluation! Whew! Long sentence. For all the reasons everyone gave about why it would be good, I'd also like to add - besides the above sentence - it would be wonderful for us "backyard" Fjord people who don't/can't compete because it would give us (me!)... the extra push to get and keep my horse in shape. I would still want him to look his best - both in grooming the little mud-ball, and his physical condition. Wonderful incentive and Carol's idea would get horses listed that wouldn't be otherwise. I also applaud the idea of the judges not knowing the horse's name, owner or handler. I go to my sis's dressage competitions and know first hand that if all the horses were the same color, the riders faceless and nameless, and the judges had to judge only on what they saw in movements, precision, etc. of the test they are looking at - the outcome would be very different! The same people on lame horses wouldn't be winning.sorry, I digress. That's another soapbox.
re: bloodlines, evaluations, etc
This message is from: "bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I thought I'd better clarify what I meant in the paragraph below>> What I DID NOT mean is that Evaluators might be influenced by knowing who the owner or trainer of a particular stallion is. -- ... Carol > That would not have been an unreasonable inference at all, apparently those who crafted the Judge's Rule Book for the NFHR did think that special interests, and/or conflict of interest, might very well be a valid consideration in a judge's qualification. Maybe we should periodically check them out? These taken from the NFHR Judge's Rule Book. CODE OF CONDUCT GOVERNING JUDGES -O- no judge may be a house guest of any exhibitor at shows they are about to judge. -O- a judge may not be an owner of ANY INTEREST in a horse at a show he/she is officiating. He/she may not be an exhibitor, rider, driver, halter handler at a show he/she is officiating. -O- a judge may not have ANY financial horse RELATED transactions such as: sale, boarding, TRAINING, or acting as an AGENT on any transaction, unless concluded 90 days prior to the show. -O- no member of the judges family, TRAINER, or TRAINER'S CLIENTS may show before said judge. -O- if a horse is presented to a judge by a person the judge knows is ineligible to compete under these rules, the judge must advise show committee and ask that the entry be excused. +++ Because we are a comparatively small breed society and often there is considerable multi-tasking by a minority, it follows that these ethical conduct guidelines are an essential mandate for fair and equal representation. Ruthie, NW MT US
Re: bloodlines, Evaluations, etc.
This message is from: "Beaver Dam Farm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia --- I thought I'd better clarify what I meant in the paragraph below What I DID NOT mean is that Evaluators might be influenced by knowing who the owner or trainer of a particular stallion is. -- What I did mean is that,( in my opinion) a stallion is perceived by the general Fjord public as being as -- illustrious/worthy/great (or not)--- as is the owner or the trainer of that particular stallion. Hope I've made myself clearer this time. I was talking about the general perception --- I was NOT talking about evaluators being influenced in any shape or form. Regards, Carol Rivoire The other problem I have with who determines which stallions are the good ones, is this --- I think that WAY TOO OFTEN, it's the owner who's being judged and not the stallion. More specifically, the owner's persona (personality). -- It has always seemed to me that if a stallion is owned by a very personable person then he's considered a terrific stallion. -- This is definitely not the way it should be done. -- Also, a stallion's quality should not be based on his performance record. --- A GELDING'S VALUE IS BASED ON HIS PERFORMANCE RECORD --- THIS I FIRMLY BELIEVE . . . . . That the ONLY way to determine the worth of a breeding stallion is by studying his offspring. It does not matter A WHIT whether or not he's a gorgeous, sweet animal that's touted by the best known breeder or trainer in the business. It doesn't matter at all how nice that stallion is or who owns or trains him . . . Nothing matters if that stallion doesn't produce offspring that are . . . . SOUND --- HEALTHY -- CONFORMATIONALLY CORRECT IN ALL RESPECTS --- THLETIC -- NORMAL SIZE (height & substance) --- WILLING -- CONFIDENT --- GOOD MOVERS -- REPRODUCTIVELY SOUND -- CONFORM TO BREED TYPE --- issue number.
White markings in Norway evaluations
This message is from: Dagrun Aarsten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> As far as white markings, do the horses get marked down if the white mark is due to a wound. I have one that had a bad wound around the ankle and the hair that grew back has a few white areas or tufts. Mark Skeels Hi Mark, White marks due to an old wound are accepted. However, you need to get a vet record at the time of injury and keep this with your horse's papers as proof. Dagrun
Re: Geldings and evaluations
This message is from: "Warren Stockwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> YEAH!!! From the Markus fan club in Minnesota Go Linda!! Roberta - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Geldings and evaluations > This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Hi; > > Just to let you know they did an evaluation in West Salem Wisconsin > 08/06-08/07 and Linda Syverson-Kerr had her gelding evaluated Spruce Hill Markus and he > received seven blues along with a silver medallion and a gold medallion and > this was done in this lone evaluation. I can't explain how proud I was that day > being she is my wife and Markus is like one of the family. > > > > Proud Husband
Fjord Evaluations and Horse shows
This message is from: "Norsk Wood Works" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from Phillip Odden The summer is racing by. I am sure the stark realization has hit many folks. For those with children, school will soon be starting again. For those of us in the Northern regions, where we now have a break in the hot weather, the cool temps and shorter days remind us that the season of white will be arriving in no time. The fjord Horse show at Blue Earth is fading in the distance and the memories of the Evaluation at La Crosse will soon reach the same perspective that passing time seems give. We have snap shot photos, some ribbons if we were lucky, and conversations with our fjord neighbors and friends to recall what happened and didn't happen. Before I forget all together I wanted to share a few of my thoughts regarding the Blue Earth show and the evaluation. I participated in each of the events. My horses did quite well and I was pleased. There were situations where I wished they had done better. In those instances perhaps the judge didn't notice what I thought was apparent to me in my horse's performance. Or, more likely, perhaps what I thought was happening in the positive just wasn't there. I suspect the later is closer to the truth and I am willing to accept the results vowing to REALLY SHOW THEM the next time. It is not my intention to shine the light on my stock in this post. Mr. Wayne Hipsley judged the Blue Earth show and he and Mr. Pat Wolfe were the evaluators at the La Crosse evaluation. This year the competition was tougher than ever before at Blue Earth. The classes were large and horses were better trained. The quality of the horses coming to the show is getting much better. The same is true for the evaluation at La Crosse. Where as at the horse show the horses present are judged one against the others be it in halter or in performance. If the class is judged on the handler the classes are placed with regards to how each handler stacks up against the others in the class. At the evaluation the horses are judged against a breed standard both in conformation and performance. You know what the evaluator will be looking for because you can study the judge's evaluation form in advance. They use the same one at each evaluation. The handler is not judged but the handler must show the evaluator the quality of the horse and what the horse can do. At times the evaluator can excuse a miscue for pilot error. However they can not judge what they can't see. They don't give marks for potential, just what they see that day at that time. Our fjord people are getting better at showing their animals at the evaluation. The quality of the horses is getting better. This may be because the quality of the horses is increasing in this country. It also might be that folks are learning about quality in fjord horses and only bringing those that will do well. Certainly people are learning to show them better. On a personal note. Both the horses I brought to the evaluation received a score 80 or over. I chose those horses because I was quite confident they were horses of quality having spent a good deal of time learning to understand what the breed standard is. I also did my best to show the horses to the judge. I kept them awake looking bright, they were groomed nicely, and I did my best to get them to walk out and trot big. I could have done better had I warmed them up prior to going into the ring. Next time I will warm them up better. At the evaluation we want every one to receive the best scores they deserve on their animals. We are not competing against one another. We are competing against a breed standard. There are no secrets here. If you are unsure of what is expected ask someone who knows. Ask your clubs to arrange for evaluation clinics. There were several very good tests at La Crosse but the tests done by John Gurtner with Linda Syverson Kerr's horse Markus were a tour de' force in the fjord world. I know Markus, John and Linda very well. John is my horse mentor and coach, Linda and I are friends and show together. Markus has won the versatility award at Blue Earth the past two years. The interesting thing is that Markus did get a score of 80 or above in the conformation test and 80 or above in three introductory and three advanced tests at La Crosse but there were several horses there that had more potential for movement, impulsion, and better gates than Markus. Markus was very well trained and John knew how to get the most out of him. I always wonder what could be possible in the fjord world given a fjord with a fuller bag of tools to start with. Which brings me to form and function. It was apparent to me that Mr. Hipsley was using three main criteria in his choices at Blue Earth. He stated it several times. In the performance classes he was looking for a well trained horse that could move well in proper frame. In the halter classes he was looking for good fjord type, (that is, what makes a fjord a fj
Re: Geldings and evaluations
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To the Proud Husband and wife and gelding, Markus. That is really a terrific honor and day for you all. Glad for you and you all should be proud!!! Jean G. Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Re: Geldings and evaluations - Congrats!!!
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WOW!!! Linda and Markus did amazing work at the evaluation! I'll bet your whole clan is proud and Markus has probably earned carrots for life! Although, since you guys already loved him, I'm sure he had the carrot guarantee sewn up anyway! YEA Geldings!! Kay Van Natta and Braveheart, another carrot recipient and Clementine, who thinks he's overpaid
Re: Geldings and evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi; Just to let you know they did an evaluation in West Salem Wisconsin 08/06-08/07 and Linda Syverson-Kerr had her gelding evaluated Spruce Hill Markus and he received seven blues along with a silver medallion and a gold medallion and this was done in this lone evaluation. I can't explain how proud I was that day being she is my wife and Markus is like one of the family. Proud Husband
Geldings and evaluations
This message is from: M Korose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Yes You can take geldings and be in an evaluation. I would think that an owner would want to do this because: 1) they have fun showing the horse in various disciplines and he is good at it 2) they wish to stay involved and active in Fjord events 3) a good score for a gelding assists the record for a good sire/dam I would suggest that the owner attend an evaluation or two and see just what is involved (costs, equipment, level of experience involved, "atmosphere" of the event, etc. I am not sure, but I believe a horse must have a conformation evaluation in order to be eligble for a medallion with the performance tests, I think that one could enter the performance tests only and get scores, but a medallion also includes a conformation test. Anyway, go find an evaluation (in your half of the country!) and test drive the situation before. Marsha Owner of Caribu the wonder Fjord, blue ribbon gelding with a silver medallion in Intro performance. NE Versatility champ also. Now earning his oats at Morven Park Equestrian center with a 68 year old driver/rider career number 3? or4? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Evaluations
This message is from: snafflesnshelties <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <<< That tells me that the Fjord owner/breeders are educating themselves about what is a good quality Fjord horse. I have only visited one fjord breeder. I did not see any horse there that was not a stunning animal. I saw beautiful profiles, great bone, and the one I took home... had wonderful eyes!! adorable face! Usually when I have visited other breeds homes... I can always pick out a horse with either a terrible rear... awful front legs... or ugly head I found it so interesting at the fjord stable... they were all so similar ... and so well handled and cared for Joyce
Evaluations
This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, All the talk about the Evaluation program has started me thinking. Whether you believe in the Evaluation system or not it seems to be working. I believe this because I've heard people like Wayne Hipsley say at Libby that the overall quality of the Fjord Horses that he sees is better then it was 10 years ago. I'm sure that the same is true for the other shows and evaluations. That tells me that the Fjord owner/breeders are educating themselves about what is a good quality Fjord horse. Part of that learning process has been due to them attending Evaluations. Even if you don't bring horses to be evaluated you learn from the experience. The comments at the end of the day by the Senior Evaluator are very educational. To keep the gene pool large but continue to breed inferior quality stallions and mares is not doing this breed any favors. Yes you'll have more genetic diversity but it will be of lower quality over all. That is what has happened in other breeds, the overall quality of the breeds has deteriorated. I have friends that breed other horses and when I tell them about our Evaluation program any number of them have said "I wish our Registry had something like that". This country is so large that you end up with pockets of the same bloodlines in one area. We have a lot of good stallions in this country but they're spread out so far. I wish there were a program where East coast and West coast stallion owners could swap stallions for a couple of years or so. That would introduce different bloodlines and create more genetic diversity and would also alleviate the shrinking of the gene pool but maintain the quality. Our system is not perfect but it's the best thing going. I have found over the years that the owner/breeders for the most part really want to protect this breed. Our Registry and those that have worked so hard to put this program in place are to be applauded. It will continue to be a work in process and get better and better and as a result our horses will get better and better. Just my two cents worth. Sherrie Sunwood Fjords [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Evaluations and other things
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 05:36 PM 8/8/2005, you wrote: This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Next I have a question about bees and stock tanks, we're having a real problem with the bees and our horses stock tanks. I even put out a water dish for the bees but they keep going to the stock tanks and falling in and drowning and we have to clean out dozens of dead bees everyday. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Sure - See if you can find some Bee sized life rings for them to get on when they get tired so they don't drown. ;-) === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Executive Director & Registrar PO Box 685 Webster, NY 14580-0685 Voice 585-872-4114 FAX 585-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Evaluations and other things
This message is from: "Ron & Sherrie Dayton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi all, I guess I missed something, I don't remember ever hearing or reading that having stallions or mares evaluated would lead to a shrinking of the gene pool. If the information from the evaluated horses is used as an Educational tool it will only strengthen the breed as a whole. Next I have a question about bees and stock tanks, we're having a real problem with the bees and our horses stock tanks. I even put out a water dish for the bees but they keep going to the stock tanks and falling in and drowning and we have to clean out dozens of dead bees everyday. Can anyone offer a suggestion? Finally, thanks to all of you that have sent in your stuff for our book, we still need many more pages from those of you that had responded so we're going to extend the deadline to Dec 31, 2005. We have a publisher lined up and are trying to keep the cost down to under 20.00. Farms that send in their pages will bet a discount. Thanks to Beth and Sandy for taking on the job of Newsletter Editors. I know that they'll do a good job. Sherrie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: Mariposa Farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It was I who brought up the subject of Stallion Evaluations in America. It was more of an educational goal for our stallion owners. What I wanted to accomplish by this is that all stallion owners would know the strengths and weaknesses of their respective stallions. ...and I felt that more knowledge was better. Thank you for responding to it and starting some dialogue - good thing someone reads the minutes! > Mark Oh. ..because the 'm' on member was small I assumed it was a Fjord individual membership person, not an NFHR BOD Member. I appreciate you clarifying your identity and intention, Mark, also your fair-minded and pleasant exchange, thank you. I commend your efforts for what you must feel is a noble endeavor. Educational goals are worthy motive, and I too can see the merit in conformational assessments, but when you add graded ribbons to the mix, emphasis on preferred stallions by promotion of evaluation high score-ranking.. you definitely have the potential for over-selection. People are schooled from youth up to aim for ribbons. As the present evaluating system stands, it is mainly those who have time and money who participate--not necessarily the best breeding candidate who may have stayed home. Of the two choices, the majority of folks will select that blue-ribboned stud even though the unevaluated stud could have better intrinsic allele value.. so whether or not evaluations are forced it is aside from the issue of diversity, as over-selection comes about through promotional marketing and a misguided emphasis as well. I am concerned that the conveyance, conformational evaluating, is evolving into an unwavering pride-laden momentum of its own, extraneous of the FJ breed's welfare. Ribbons fade, trophies tarnish, glory passes --but the breed must continue forever and it is diversity, not concentration, that allows for the survival of a species. I don't agree that this is a simple matter, in truth it is very complex, that's where professional genetic counsel comes in. The key component on this issue is flexibility... an openness for innovative ways and means of upgrading the long-range welfare of the Fjordhorse as a whole breed, and not just favoring an elite few for profit and glamour. Inclusionary instead of exclusionary. In reference to traditional Norwegian breeding practices, there are presently those Norwegians searching out this very issue of breed diversity in the Fjordhorse as well. Here is one site from the Norwegian Ministry of Agriculture, (Nordic Gene Bank Farm Animals) in which Fjords are mentioned. A conclusion statement, pg 4 under horses, states, "Considerable changes must be made in modern breeding programs in order to optimize the programs by placing more emphasis on inbreeding and kinship. The long-term negative effect of the extensive use of a limited number of sires is shown to be significantly greater than found in previous studies and models. The conclusion is that significant aspects of breeding strategies need to be changed in order to obtain optimized breeding programs." http://www.nordgen.org/english/projects/ngh-projects.htm Ruthie, nw mt US
Re: Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: "jgayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I think one of the aggravating things about "all stallions" evaluated is the control issue. We are under so many rules and regulations from our Govt. to get us all in narrow line that not only is the evaluation of all stallions not possible but would no more control the get unless you "evaluated all the brood mares" and even then don't we always wait for the birth to see what we got? Author 'The Colonel's Daughter" Occupied Germany 1946 to 1949 Send: $20 to Three Horse's Press 7403 Blaine Rd Aberdeen, WA 98520
Stallion Evaluations (was research on behalf of Fjords)
This message is from: Mariposa Farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Ruth, It was I who brought up the subject of Stallion Evaluations in America. (Which I'm sure you know is being done in a similar fashion in European countries, and has been for quite some time). It was not my intent to have our gene pool "shrunk" and creating a situation where only the "best are bred to the best". It was more of an educational goal for our stallion owners. My very informal proposal did not include a score that they had to make or any "licensing" involved. What I wanted to accomplish by this is that all stallion owners would know the strengths and weaknesses of their respective stallions. Most Stallions in this country breed very few mares each year and they are usually the owner's herd. That stallion has a huge impact on their breeding program and I felt that more knowledge was better. I don't think we have a problem with only a few stallions breeding the mares of North America. I also knew that my proposal would never fly this time around but I wanted to get the idea in peoples head that this is a direction we should be heading. Thank you for responding to it and starting some dialogue - good thing someone reads the minutes! Mark McGinley NFHR Director Mariposa Farm Washburn, WI
misunderstanding ? Evaluations
This message is from: "Catherine lassesen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruthie, I am afraid that you misunderstood what I meant by selecting a stallion from The Record Book. The Record Book now gives a mare owner the material in their hands to evaluate the right stallion for their particular mare. Breeding is finding the right MATCH... I breed to other stallion with our mares because I am looking for the right MATCH for my mares. I want IMPROVEMENT from my breeding. I want to take two "Reds" and make a "Blue" and I have done just that with our breed program here at our farm. I did not say that EVERYONE should breed to "Blue" stallions... I am saying that now that scores on some of the stallions registered in the registry are public, the pubic can be more educated in selecting a stallion for their mare. There may be better stallions out there but until the owners get them evaluated, the public can only go by their own knowledge. The Record Book is just one more TOOL to help the mare owner decide on a "date" for their mare. As I have spoken before and have written about in articles. If a stallion has a weak hind end you do not want to breed your mare to him if she has a weak hind end also. It is all about making the right match and The Record Book is a great way to begin your research. Going out to play with Fjordees, Catherine Lassesen Hestehaven = The Horse Garden Where we are enjoying our great Fjords... pairs, 4 up and foal training... never a dull day never the same day twice. Gotta love it.
RE: Trot "race" in Evaluations
This message is from: "Karen McCarthy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gail, it was my experience that in the first ever sanctioned NFHR Eval I participated in, in Libby, Mt. they did have a section for this trot test. However, it was in 1990(?) sort of before the NFHR Eval system was implemented, (Pam McWethy was the organizer, Karen Cabic was there, as well as from the NFHR ??, and David Klove and Jon Hegdal were there to comment + assist as well). Much of it was improvised and "wiged' on the spot, as it had never been done before, except in (Vermont?) There was a trotting test, however, it wasn't on a perfectly groomed track, and we were not putting to racing sulkies, but much heavier meadowbrooks and the like. I don't think anyone made the time - not surprising considering the conditions. I believe Brian Jensen, Chip Lamb and one other fellow participated along w/ myself, and Sven. Later on, when I was on the NFHR Eval commitee, I assisted in the design of an advanced driving test that consisted of a driven dressage portion, as well as more of a 'utility' test, with different obstacles and a portion that asks for a 'road trot' for about 3/4 around the arena - defintely not a timed element, but just to show the evaluators the ability of the horse to go up and down through the "gears". I have always wondered why turning the horses out to be shown in the arena 'at liberty' has not been implemented into our NFHR eval system. With so many horses not able to show good movement due to the limitations of the handlers (either by under or over handling), I would think this would be a positive addition to our program. I could swear that i have seen this done on some tapes that the Jensen's shared from a trip to Norway + the stallion shows a few years back. I know other breed registries use this technique as well. Karen McCarthyGreat Basin Fjords :: Carson City, Nevadahttp://www.picturetrail.com/weegees Original Message Follows From: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com To: Subject: Trot "race" in Evaluations Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 08:52:52 -0700 This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Trot "race" in Evaluations
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Gail Russell wrote: In Norway, they have the timed trot-test on a track. Though speed may not be all that important, a driven trot-test does allow evaluators to actually see the trot over an extended period of time, and without the handicap imposed by a less than athletic exhibitor. I would be interested to know whether there has ever been discussion in North American proposing introduction of a driven trot-test, or some other way of evaluating movement beyond the in-hand work, other than the performance testing? Gail, in Norway in addition to the 1 km trot test on the track they also do a free-movement analysis where they free lunge the stallions in the indoor arena before the judges and spectators, and a free-jumping test down a jump chute. They definitely get a lot better look at the movement from a lot of different perspectives. Lori
Trot "race" in Evaluations
This message is from: "Gail Russell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 5/5/05 10:36:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > ..."The evaluations are a great idea. BUT How many blue ribbon fjords were > once > reds or yellows and some of them were told they should be gelded or not > bred" > > I can't answer this question with specific statistics for the exact numbers, > > but I do know from personal experience that our stallion, BDF Obelisk, was > evaluated in the Red category as a three year old (year 2000). Total points > > totaled 79. The evaluators were Jim Havelhurst and Wayne Hipsley. Wayne > was, as is expected of the NFHR evaluators, making public commentary > regarding the quality of each horse after all of the stallions had received > their scores (something else you won't get at a regular horse show, though > if you attend a fjord horse show using a judge who is a fjord horse > evaluator you might receive the benefit of commentary after each halter > class). He pointed out the good qualities of the horse, then said that he > was not yet mature and they would like to see him come back in the future. > > Hi, Thank you, Beth, for your narrative regarding conformation scoring. It was right on. The same thing happened with Dusty. When I put on the very first Evaluation in Libby, I put him through the conformation section and he received a red, 78.5. So close, yet so far away. At the Evaluation that I put on here in Eugene, I was kept pretty busy 'doing', showing horses for clients and helping my students and did not show Dusty in Conf. at that time, but was told by Wayne & Jim that I should put him through the next one because they liked him a lot better since he had matured. I did as they suggested and presented him at the next Evaluation in Libby where he did receive his blue. I just pulled his score sheets from both evaluations to compare them and here is what I discovered. His scores were very consistent on the things that couldn't change. I was actually surprised at their consistency since quite a bit of time had passed between the two evaluations. Goes to show you the quality of our evaluators!! The things that made the difference between that red and blue were maturity and conditioning. How many times have we heard - they can only judge what they see on that day. A prime example of that happened with Majson, a stallion that we had sold to Carol Trip. Carol had sent him to a trainer to prepare him for the evaluation, but, obviously this was not the right trainer for him. He did not look his best, ribby and pot bellied. He looked a bit droopy too. He received a yellow ribbon and was not able to even go on for his performance tests. Carol was pretty upset. I talked to Carol a bit later and asked her if she would allow me to condition him and let me show him at the next evaluation. She agreed. Just for everyone's information, please note that it takes at least 90 days to get a horse properly fitted for conformation. I did show Majson at the Days Creek evaluation and his scores were greatly improved - 79 - just a squeak away from blue! Another thing to mention just for everyone's information, is that MOVEMENT is very important in those scores so it behooves you to do your homework and understand what the judges need to see. Put on your running shoes and know your horse so that you can give him every opportunity to score his best. Majson did go on to receive his Silver and Gold Medallions for Western at that evaluation. Then he came back to me for the next evaluation at Libby where he received his Silver and Gold medallions for English. The other issue that I need to address is Lauren's suggestion that 'hobnobbing' gets higher scores. Nothing could be further from the truth. Since I was on the original evaluation committee as was Brian Jensen, Anne Appleby and the many others, we worked with Wayne and Jim for a number years putting the whole evaluation program together. Did that get us higher scores - NOT. In fact, quite the opposite is true. After the Eugene evaluation, Brian and I were looking at our score sheets and giggling about the fact that those guys don't miss a thing. When we do a test, we know every jot and tittle that isn't absolutely correct - and they didn't miss a single one!! I think they are harder on us because they know we know better than to make those mistakes. I think they might be a bit more lenient to beginners? Am I complaining - NO. That just puts them one rung higher on my ladder of respect! These fellows are top notch! I do the same thing. When I am judging and my students are showing, I am harder on them because I know they know better. I hope this helps to clarify a few things regarding the NFHR Evaluation system. It is good! Gayle Ware Field of Dreams Eugene, OR www.fjordhorse.com
Re: Evaluations and stallion selection
This message is from: Marsha Jo Hannah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "starfirefarm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Arne Presthus even said, at the Libby 2001 > evaluation, that Norway may need to look to America sometime in the future, > to regain some of the draft qualities that may have been lost in the > Norwegian bloodlines. > Beth Interesting. I heard similar comments from David Klove, when he came to Libby for the Nordicfest show (and an informal evaluation) in 1988. Marsha Jo HannahMurphy must have been a horseman-- [EMAIL PROTECTED] anything that can go wrong, will! 15 mi SW of Roseburg, Oregon
Evaluations
This message is from: "Lauren Sellars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The list has been getting hot lately some need to lighten up don't take it all so seriously. The evaluations are a great idea. BUT How many blue ribbon fjords were once reds or yellows and some of them were told they should be gelded or not bred Proper feeding, and great trainers, perserverance, money & some hob nobbing goes along way. Poof now they are blue ribbon stallions. Take it all with a grain of salt. Not every great fjord has rich enough owners to promote him / her to the best advantage. Some owners have all the time and money to do just that. Way to go ! We all benifit from the fjords that are trained and presented to the hilt. I love telling people about Ann & Wez or Gayle & Dusty. We are all winners whether it is the show ring, the mountain or our backyard. Our breed is gentle kind forgiving. lets learn from them. Go play Lauren
Evaluations
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm reminded that all the recent hype about who has the "best" stallion is the reason the NFHR has an effective Evaluation Program. This Program is to determine a horse's comparison to the breed standard. The NFHR Record Book lists in detail the reasons WHY a Fjord is given a mathematical reading of "X" and then that Fjord can be compared to the breed standard in all details. If an owner is looking for specific qualities of a Fjord then the NFHR Evaluation shows what they need to know. To say a stallion, or gelding, or mare is "the best" or "the fastest" or "has the best legs or hocks" is generally a subjective statement. Show me these result in a NFHR Evaluation where the horse is pitted against the breed standard and I can then believe or disbelieve the claim. A Horse Show pits one horse against the others showing only in that class and the class may have only 2 horses. An Evaluation pits the horse against the breed standard. These "objective" results are what I want to see. In North America we have done a masterful job of developing a gene pool of quality Fjords in a few recent years. This has been accomplished by importing and breeding quality horses from several countries and the current quality of North American Fjords compares very favorably to many European countries. Without naming several top quality stallions in North America (or their owners). I can assure you that F H I (Fjord Horse International) is very respectful of the current quality of the Fjord Horse in North America and it will continue to improve as we expand our NFHR Evaluation Program. Respectfully, Alan Merrill
Re: Evaluations mandatory in Europe?
This message is from: "Carol Riviore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello Everybody from Carol Rivoire in beautifuly, sunny & finally warm Nova Scotia where the daffodils are blooing and the spring peepers are peeping (a sure sign of spring we all wait for). Brian, I don't know about Norway and the other European countries, but having your Fjord horses Evaluated is definitely NOT mandatory in olland. -- I think you could say that the Netherlands also has a fair amount of "freedom of choice". --- In any case, Fjord owners there are free to choose whether or not to Evaluate their Fjords.-- One year, I purchased a filly bred by Bob van Bon and she had no premium beside her name in her pedigree. -- I asked him why, and he said they'd simply been too busy and didn't have the time to take their own horses to the Evaluation. -- I bought the filly anyway. In America there is freedom of choice. It is not mandatory for all owners to have their breeding stock tested or Evaluated. In Europe it is mandatory. One observation I can make is that members who participate in the Evaluation Program on the whole are respectful of the members who choose not to Evaluate. Some members who do not wish to Evaluate seem very unhappy with most anything the NFHR does. It is almost like they are after attention through negative advertising. issue number. Regards, Carol
Re: Evaluations And Fjord scores
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a relatively new owner, I appreciate the discussion on evaluations. I would love to have the process available in more places and would certainly take advantage of it if it were. Maybe later when there are more interested owners to support the expenses involved they will come closer. I have purchased three fjords, and now have a baby of my own and have based my decisions on the pedigree, pictures ( videos) and the evaluations when available. Peg Knutsen with Erlend has them prominantly displayed on her Web site ( or did, I have not looked lately) and the NFHregistry has the information on each horse as far as progeny and ancestors, both of which I have looked at, printed off and tried to evaluate before buying or breeding a Fjord. When I go onto a Web site or breeders page I look for them as well as information on ancestors, siblings and progeny, since that is what I have to go by. So far I have not been disappointed. However, the process would be much easier and the horses probably sell faster if more prospective sellers gathered that information for the purchaser. ( My kitchen table for a time had stacks of printouts and I tried unsuccessfully to put together a BIG picture pedigree with relationshipa, colors, which lines had more highly evaluated or performing horses etc.) It finally gave me a headache. Although there are some absolutely astounding stallions now available, I decided to go with those with proven offspring at this time, realizing that some of these have not had a chance to put that many foals on the ground. Gjest offspring color: Gjests Dam being a red dun explains the red duns that have cropped up in the progeny of each of his sons. I have not found any greys. Obelisk i believe has a white dun offspring. Body type: I have purchased an Erlend offspring and a Gjest offspring and a BDFMalcolm Locke offspring. They are all three different in body type at this stage, a 2 and 3 and 5 year old but have wonderful movement, maybe it is suspension. the Gjest son is long backed, long necked, Erlends daughter is short backed more squarely built. Malcolm Locke's daughter is in the middle. They all appear to be perfectly propelled above the ground when they trot and smooth when they canter. The gentleman who is training the Gjest son, and who has trained for multiple disciplines has said on several occasions that this is one of the most athletic horses he has ever trained, he is more flexible than the other fjords;he is incredibly smooth and well balanced as well as being the most willing to do anything asked. As far as temperament, you could not ask for anything better from any of the three. My gut feeling is that the Gjest son will remain the easiest and most willing as far as training. When breeders put the information on evaluations as well as information on siblings, progeny and ancestors, it makes it easier to pick quality horses and at least stacks the deck in the buyers favor- although nothing is guaranteed. I am pleased with all three, but tickled to death with the newest addition, born here and as yet unamed ( and not for sale). Lacking a crystal ball, all we have as consumers is the potential promise of pedigree and the judgement of knowlegable people ( evaluations) and the evidence of progeny. All three go into the decision making process. So keep it up. Kathy in Southeast Idaho
