Re: OS 10.3.5 (split to problems attack)

[Bruce Johnson]

On Saturday, August 14, 2004, at 06:08  AM, Mikael Byström wrote:
Don, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
This thread would make for an interesting thread in
the fields of communications, psychology, philosophy
and human relations. Certainly it reveals some of the
difficulties that technical people have in conveying
what they are trying to say in non-technical terms.
:-)
The problem may have started by someone in the
academic world implying that they worked in thereal
life world.  :-)

I think the the responders have managed the issues magnificently. 
Thanks
for being intelligent and human about having differing views.
Thank you, you were far more polite than the the email I didn't send...
If someone wants to nitpick real OS X problems, I can return with some
strange issues a friend of mine seem to have later with his Pro Audio 
rig
(with a G4 in the centre).
Hey, this IS the G-list, after all.
One of those useless academics with no concept of reality I know here 
is the sysadmin for the Music department...I suspect she has a wee bit 
of experience with sound studio set-ups, if I can coax her out of her 
ivory basement.

(Academia or no, they still know where to stick the computer geeks ;-)

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Bruce Johnson

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Re: OS 10.3.5 (split to problems attack)

[Laurent Daudelin]

on 15/08/04 14:09, Bruce Johnson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[snip!]
 Hey, this IS the G-list, after all.

Not to be nit-picky, but this is actually the G-BOOKS list... ;-)

-Laurent.
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copy protection n.: A class of methods for preventing incompetent pirates
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silly. 


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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Timothy, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

I don't even know what Sasser does. See what a few months with a Mac
does to a guy?

That kind of ignorance is wonderful, isn't it?


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Laurent, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

I simply try to nitpick your arbitrary figure as
you seem to do from time to time...   ;-)

There are degrees in hell?


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Eugene, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

But it's bad form to take
the scholarly way of saying that what you do is not your fault.

On the contrary, I take full responsibility for what I do and write. If
someone leaves out information in a message, something I do to on
occasion, then that message to some extent is left to subjective
interpretation (like when I forgot , say (10%) recently. That doesn't
make the person doing the interpretation without responsibility.

I think we can stop here as the 10.3.5 upgrade have left the horizon here.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

what bothers me is the seeming 
attitude by many that the mac is just beset with horrible problems

Which I agree is untrue for many users, perhaps a clear majority (which I
believe). 
For some users though Macs *are* just beset with horrible problems.
While that may be because of other causes than OS X and Apple (incomplete
software and hardware), that doesn't comfort these people. Not much to do
about that, except helping these people identifying the causes, learn
from it and report bugs to the appropriate places. Right?


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Thomas Ethen]

I find that the majority of people that feel this way have never used a Mac
and are listening to PC propaganda. I know many people with both Mac's and
PC's and PC's are by far more trouble prone that Mac's are.

In my two High School Computer Labs, the Mac lab just runs on its own and
the PC lab has to have a full time tech there to deal with almost daily
issues with the computers. I even have two extra PC's to cover for down
time, while that is not an issue in my Mac lab.

Tom



 what bothers me is the seeming
 attitude by many that the mac is just beset with horrible problems


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[AJ Ward]

I agree... while fairly new to Macs, I find them much less trouble 
overall than peecee's. When I have problems with my Mac, I figure on 
maybe an hour or two sorting things out. When one of my peecee's goes 
down, I make sure the fridge is stocked with cold beverages and write 
off the weekend!

Amanda
(Happy owner of a BW , PB Wallstreet, 2-6400's, an iMac and a PB Duo 
280c)

On 14/08/2004, at 7:32 AM, Thomas Ethen wrote:
I find that the majority of people that feel this way have never used 
a Mac
and are listening to PC propaganda. I know many people with both Mac's 
and
PC's and PC's are by far more trouble prone that Mac's are.

In my two High School Computer Labs, the Mac lab just runs on its own 
and
the PC lab has to have a full time tech there to deal with almost daily
issues with the computers. I even have two extra PC's to cover for down
time, while that is not an issue in my Mac lab.

Tom

what bothers me is the seeming
attitude by many that the mac is just beset with horrible problems

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Thomas, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

I know many people with both Mac's and
PC's and PC's are by far more trouble prone that Mac's are.

While that is also my perception, you must realize that depending on the
usage focus (with which I mean the combination of hardware like outboard
gear, specific videocards and specific software), have more problems than
others. I have already mentioned Pro Audio. Latency aside, I feel PCs
still have the upper hand for some time to come (even though they don't
have the best Pro Audio Sequencer any longer).

Also, there are known areas of application where PCs are better because
they have the apps. Using the incomplete OS X apps in these areas is one
sure way of getting problems even on the best OS in the world. Some
people I know feel the 3D field is one such area and they are also
calling the Apple Graphics bus slow as they want to be able to move 8Gbit
per second, they tell me.

It's hard to stop debate OS X issues. Is there a constructive discussion
group for that that you people can recommend? I don't like the tone of
Mac OS X Talk nor do I like its massive daily volume of messages.


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Re: Re.: OS 10.3.5

[Eugene Lee]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 01:37:56AM +0200, Mikael Byström wrote:
: 
: macnifico, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
: 
: Yesterday I installed the upgrade with no problems. I DIDN'T run 
: permissions, the CD, etc.
: 
: and your point is?

I believe his point is that he installed the 10.3.5 update --- without
doing the Repair Permissions, booting off the OS X CD and repair the
volume, et.al. --- and encountered no problems running 10.3.5.


-- 
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eugene at anime dot net

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Eugene, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 01:37:56AM +0200, Mikael Byström wrote:
:
: macnifico, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
:
: Yesterday I installed the upgrade with no problems. I DIDN'T run
: permissions, the CD, etc.
:
: and your point is?

I believe his point is that he installed the 10.3.5 update --- without
doing the Repair Permissions, booting off the OS X CD and repair the
volume, et.al. --- and encountered no problems running 10.3.5.


Yes, but who claimed that such problems occur in 100% of 10.3.5 upgrade
installations? If such problems only occurs in 10% it still is a problem.
So saying I don't have [optional problem description], is only
interesting for others in order to find out that the problem isn't
occuring 100%. As that have been established already long time ago
(years) and the idea haven't been brought up again in this discussion,
the report from Macnifico adds little value. Which I failed to see a point.

Here's some more non evidence only to make sure you see I'm not talking
from my spot only: I too, have not had any problems with any updates when
I hadn't repaired permissions first. Not under Panther. Under Jaguar,
this was a more common experience.
Actually, when I upgraded a Dual 2 G5 and installed several video apps, I
did check for permissions problems and didn't even have one error. That
was a first for me actually.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Laurent, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Since Bruce is a system administrator where he works, I would assume that
when he says real life, he's probably thinking about the users he has to
support. But that's just wishful thinking from me...

I'd expect he's an excellent system administrator, but he's not working
where I work. It's one thing to say Here in real life where I work with
this number of people and according to our experience compared to
saying in real life (implying everywhere).


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Eugene Lee]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 11:25:42AM +0200, Mikael Byström wrote:
: Eugene said:
: On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 01:37:56AM +0200, Mikael Byström wrote:
: : macnifico said:
: : 
: : Yesterday I installed the upgrade with no problems. I DIDN'T run 
: : permissions, the CD, etc.
: : 
: : and your point is?
: 
: I believe his point is that he installed the 10.3.5 update --- without
: doing the Repair Permissions, booting off the OS X CD and repair the
: volume, et.al. --- and encountered no problems running 10.3.5.
: 
: Yes, but who claimed that such problems occur in 100% of 10.3.5 upgrade
: installations?

Nobody.

: If such problems only occurs in 10% it still is a problem.

If people only speak up to report a problem, it creates a perception
that the problem is widespread.  As a result effect, it also creates a
perception that solutions to the problem is widespread and thus widely
required.  If people report that they have had no problems, it helps to
downplay the perceived magnitude of the problem and the necessity for
implementing the solutions.  It's not whether a problem is real or
significant; it's whether the solution is really needed.  For example,
some bacteria can be bad if gets into a person.  But do we really need
anti-bacteria soap, anti-bacteria detergents, anti-bacterial spray, etc.
in our homes?


-- 
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eugene at anime dot net

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Laurent Daudelin]

on 13/08/04 05:25, Mikael Byström at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Eugene, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
 On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 01:37:56AM +0200, Mikael Byström wrote:
 :
 : macnifico, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 :
 : Yesterday I installed the upgrade with no problems. I DIDN'T run
 : permissions, the CD, etc.
 :
 : and your point is?
 
 I believe his point is that he installed the 10.3.5 update --- without
 doing the Repair Permissions, booting off the OS X CD and repair the
 volume, et.al. --- and encountered no problems running 10.3.5.
 
 
 Yes, but who claimed that such problems occur in 100% of 10.3.5 upgrade
 installations? If such problems only occurs in 10% it still is a problem.

Mikael,

What make you think that because it occurs in 10%, it is a problem? Or who
said it was a problem? You?

If it occurs in 9%, is it a problem? If not, then is 8% a problem? Where
does that end?

I don't agree with your statement that 10% is a problem.

-Laurent.
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Logiciels Nemesys Software   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

careware /keir'weir/ n.: A variety of shareware for which either the author
suggests that some payment be made to a nominated charity or a levy directed
to charity is included on top of the distribution charge. Syn. charityware;
compare crippleware, sense 2. 


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Eugene, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

If people report that they have had no problems, it helps to
downplay the perceived magnitude of the problem and the necessity for
implementing the solutions. 

I agree, but how the report was presented, that is in the context of the
discussion, more informational value than that was implied (assuming at
my end that the poster had read the discussion).
This may have not been the posters intention, but what I wrote was the
way I perceived it. I agree it's risky decoding contextual information,
but it's something we humans do from time to time, especially when vital
information is left out from the message.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Laurent, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

What make you think that because it occurs in 10%, it is a problem? Or who
said it was a problem? You?

If it occurs in 9%, is it a problem? If not, then is 8% a problem? Where
does that end?

I don't agree with your statement that 10% is a problem.

Well, that was obviously an arbitrary figure, so you missed my point
which was that if a number of people, especially those with differing
additional hardware and software (implying commercial here), have a
specific problem, then the problem is real. At least for them. These
people deserve some insights and help and to not be ridiculed.

If more than a handful users within a user group, say Pro Audio users,
report similar problems at a focused website, I'd regard it a known
problem. I find the macfixit attitude quite sound and not exaggerated
(though I haven't used the site lately). 
Obviously anyone can decide what level of noise and amount of reports
they want to see before acknowledging a problem, but IMHO problem reports
should both be respected and taken with a pinch of salt, if you can
understand that attitude.  

Of course, sometimes solutions lose their validity with time in later
updates and are widely used as some kind of Mac Voodoo, as the redo
prebinding solution for example. I wouldn't put repairing permissions in
that category though. 




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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Laurent Daudelin]

On 13/08/04 10:59, Mikael Byström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Laurent, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
 What make you think that because it occurs in 10%, it is a problem? Or who
 said it was a problem? You?
 
 If it occurs in 9%, is it a problem? If not, then is 8% a problem? Where
 does that end?
 
 I don't agree with your statement that 10% is a problem.
 
 Well, that was obviously an arbitrary figure, so you missed my point
 which was that if a number of people, especially those with differing
 additional hardware and software (implying commercial here), have a
 specific problem, then the problem is real. At least for them. These
 people deserve some insights and help and to not be ridiculed.

Mikael,

I didn't miss your point. I simply try to nitpick your arbitrary figure as
you seem to do from time to time...   ;-)

-Laurent.
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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Washington, DC, USA
 Usual disclaimers apply ***


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Eugene Lee]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2004 at 04:47:40PM +0200, Mikael Byström wrote:
: 
: Eugene said:
: 
: If people report that they have had no problems, it helps to
: downplay the perceived magnitude of the problem and the necessity for
: implementing the solutions. 
: 
: I agree, but how the report was presented, that is in the context of the
: discussion, more informational value than that was implied (assuming at
: my end that the poster had read the discussion).
: This may have not been the posters intention, but what I wrote was the
: way I perceived it. I agree it's risky decoding contextual information,
: but it's something we humans do from time to time, especially when vital
: information is left out from the message.

Ummm, okay, that's a very fluffy, theoretical way of saying it depends,
I call it like I see it, and I'm only human.  But it's bad form to take
the scholarly way of saying that what you do is not your fault.

Your interpretation is as good as anyone else's.  Not worse.  Not better.
As good as.  And that's it.  Now go relax.  It's the weekend.  :-)


-- 
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eugene at anime dot net

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 12, 2004, at 7:47 PM, Laurent Daudelin wrote:
on 12/08/04 19:47, Mikael Byström at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
In real life, most people have few problems with OS X.
let me guess, real life is lives approved by you? How do you 
find
the time for all this approval business?

I have few problems with OS X. Is that enough to become approved?
Since Bruce is a system administrator where he works, I would assume 
that
when he says real life, he's probably thinking about the users he 
has to
support. But that's just wishful thinking from me...
That's the experience I was talking from, that and the shared 
experiences of our Mac admins group on campus. We find that, in the 
main, we don't have to do a whole lot, since the Macs don't seem to 
break very often; when they do, it's often easy to fix.

Sometimes we get seemingly hard ones, but even they often turn out to 
have simple fixes.

Moreover, either because Mac users are naturally more intelligent ;-), 
they're more used to fixing things themselves, living in a computing 
ghetto that they do, or that macs are easier to deal with in the first 
place (or a combination of all three), we find that one reason we're so 
rarely fixing problems is that the users themselves fix the problems 
when they arise.

I'm not offended my Mikael's remarks, what bothers me is the seeming 
attitude by many that the mac is just beset with horrible problems, 
because they go looking for the people having those problems. (like 
hitting MacFixit every day, and such.) It's a biased view, and after a 
while, if those are the sites you frequent, it seems like it's the only 
view.

It's like the many, many PC users I've run into who are genuinely 
surprised, when I tell them I didn't have to worry about viruses on my 
Mac. They see nothing but all the news coverage about this or that new 
virus sweeping the worlds computers, and never seem to read to the last 
line where the obligatory Macs and Linux systems are not affected.

(A problem not confined merely to computers in this media-soaked age)

--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Zoltan Batiz]

On Aug 13, 2004, at 9:40 AM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
On Aug 12, 2004, at 7:47 PM, Laurent Daudelin wrote:
on 12/08/04 19:47, Mikael Byström at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
In real life, most people have few problems with OS X.
let me guess, real life is lives approved by you? How do you 
find
the time for all this approval business?

I have few problems with OS X. Is that enough to become approved?
Since Bruce is a system administrator where he works, I would assume 
that
when he says real life, he's probably thinking about the users he 
has to
support. But that's just wishful thinking from me...
That's the experience I was talking from, that and the shared 
experiences of our Mac admins group on campus. We find that, in the 
main, we don't have to do a whole lot, since the Macs don't seem to 
break very often; when they do, it's often easy to fix.

Sometimes we get seemingly hard ones, but even they often turn out to 
have simple fixes.

Moreover, either because Mac users are naturally more intelligent ;-), 
they're more used to fixing things themselves, living in a computing 
ghetto that they do, or that macs are easier to deal with in the first 
place (or a combination of all three), we find that one reason we're 
so rarely fixing problems is that the users themselves fix the 
problems when they arise.

I'm not offended my Mikael's remarks, what bothers me is the seeming 
attitude by many that the mac is just beset with horrible problems, 
because they go looking for the people having those problems. (like 
hitting MacFixit every day, and such.) It's a biased view, and after a 
while, if those are the sites you frequent, it seems like it's the 
only view.

It's like the many, many PC users I've run into who are genuinely 
surprised, when I tell them I didn't have to worry about viruses on my 
Mac. They see nothing but all the news coverage about this or that new 
virus sweeping the worlds computers, and never seem to read to the 
last line where the obligatory Macs and Linux systems are not 
affected.

(A problem not confined merely to computers in this media-soaked age)
'
'Bout time someone adds a little intelligence here.  Hey Bruce, for all 
it's worth, I'm a guy whose involvement in computers in general date 
back to '84,  I went from a Commodore VIC-20, 64, 128  to Amiga 500, 
1200, 4000T,  then finally to the Mac.  The funny thing is, after all 
these years, I NEVER had two things:  A PC and a virus!  :)

With that aside, I still booted from the CD and repaired permissions 
before upgrading to 10.3.5.  No problems to report here. . .at all.  :)

Z
THE BLUETOOTH MASTER
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Timothy Luoma]

.. Original Message ...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:57:19 -0700 Bruce Johnson 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
To be truthful, Timothy also said he 'practices safe computing' which 
would include keeping your systems up-to-date. Sasser exploited a hole 
that had been patched several weeks or months before the emergence of 
the virus, but you're right, one doesn't need to use IE, Outlook or 
open files of dubious origin to get infected.


true.  Windows Update runs daily and I'm behind a hardware firewall.

I don't even know what Sasser does.  See what a few months with a Mac does 
to a guy?




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Re: OS 10.3.5 (split to problems attack)

[Don P.]

This thread would make for an interesting thread in
the fields of communications, psychology, philosophy
and human relations. Certainly it reveals some of the
difficulties that technical people have in conveying
what they are trying to say in non-technical terms. 
:-)
The problem may have started by someone in the
academic world implying that they worked in thereal
life world.  :-)
Perhaps this was doubly galling since we see so much
SPAM and Popup ads destroying the credibility of an
otherwise honorable university.  :-)
Regardless, there a few things in life for which a 10%
failure rate is deemed acceptable (although I think we
might welcome a return to that for marriages). :-)
Keep smiling. LOL and enjoying the pissing contests.
Don


 Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 In real life, most people have few problems with
OS X.

 let me guess, real life is lives approved by
you? How do 
you=20
 find
 the time for all this approval business?

 I have few problems with OS X. Is that enough to
become approved?

 Since Bruce is a system administrator where he
works, I would 
assume=20=

 that
 when he says real life, he's probably thinking
about the users 
he=20
 has to
 support. But that's just wishful thinking from me...

That's the experience I was talking from, that and the
shared=20
experiences of our Mac admins group on campus. We find
that, in the=20
main, we don't have to do a whole lot, since the Macs
don't seem to=20
break very often; when they do, it's often easy to
fix.

Sometimes we get seemingly hard ones, but even they
often turn out 
to=20
have simple fixes.

Moreover, either because Mac users are naturally more
intelligent 
;-),=20=

they're more used to fixing things themselves, living
in a computing=20
ghetto that they do, or that macs are easier to deal
with in the 
first=20=

place (or a combination of all three), we find that
one reason we're 
so=20=

rarely fixing problems is that the users themselves
fix the problems=20
when they arise.

I'm not offended my Mikael's remarks, what bothers me
is the seeming=20
attitude by many that the mac is just beset with
horrible problems,=20
because they go looking for the people having those
problems. (like=20
hitting MacFixit every day, and such.) It's a biased
view, and after 
a=20=

while, if those are the sites you frequent, it seems
like it's the 
only=20=

view.

It's like the many, many PC users I've run into who
are genuinely=20
surprised, when I tell them I didn't have to worry
about viruses on 
my=20=

Mac. They see nothing but all the news coverage about
this or that 
new=20=

virus sweeping the worlds computers, and never seem to
read to the 
last=20=

line where the obligatory Macs and Linux systems are
not affected.

(A problem not confined merely to computers in this
media-soaked age)



 --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

There are some folks who will argue that Mac users need to use AV 
software to protect hapless Windows users you may communicate with, but 
transmitting a virus like that requires a deliberate act. You can't 
just do it 'accidentally'.

Word viruses can survive a trip to Macs and Word and then be passed on.
Letting that happen can be a bad choice for a business relationship, no
matter if you got the file from another person.

I've not seen a new Word or Excel macro virus released in over two 
years; the default settings of Word X and Excel X (and since Office 
2000 on the Windows side) would prevent them from working.
I have.



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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Thomas, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

You can't possibly spread them to anyone else unless you physically include
the virus infested attachment when you send you email to a windows machine.
Never heard of Word viruses? This is in my circles, a bunch of Mac users
at work and in school and with many having a PC home, the major virus vehicle.

Also, some people in the Mac don't show file endings, don't take notice
of them even if shown and could very well spread these unwillingly.

I don't have a Virus app any longer, though I used to own Virex under OS
9. But, I don't have a habit of recommending my choices for other people
that may have other less intimate relationships with their machines. Not
that I'd expect that from users on this list of course.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Timothy Luoma]

On Aug 11, 2004, at 5:23 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why they get mixed up either, given that OS X is 
so super-stable and all, but it seems they do.

See Tutorial: Permissions, Accounts, and File Organization
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20040107175410865
I read it, but it stops exactly where my knowledge does; as I 
mentioned, I know about Unix permissions, but I never had to repair 
them in any Unix/Linux/BSD machines I've been working on. I am still 
curious as to why you have to do it on Mac OS X.
Yeah I've been wondering this too and haven't found a good reason for 
it.

My only real guess that would make sense is some installer that removes 
the 'w' or 'S' bit from a directory that needs it.

Repair Permissions does seem very un-Unixy to me, and I've only done 
it once when there was a very specific problem with an installer than 
mucked them up.  I do wish they'd be more specific and let me use chmod 
via Terminal rather than some blanket change all permissions back to 
some default setting that was chosen who knows when by who knows who 
for who knows what

TjL
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Virus FUD (was Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5)

[Luis Sequeira]

I hear you but I just can't seem to justify 100.00 (per year) for a
virus program and other stuff I just don't need. I would rather spend
60.00 on a single program. I realize that virus on a Mac are the least
of my problems but I am getting an amazing number of them through
email. I believe I am passing them (unwillingly) to others who use
Windows. I just want to take all precautions.
There is no way you are passing those virus unwillingly.
People may believe they receive infected e-mail from you, but that is 
because the viruses send e-mail with fake addresses: if someone with 
an infected windows machine has your address, then a virus may send 
infected messages that PRETEND to come from you to other people in 
this guy's address book.
Then some of these messages may bounce and, of course, they bounce to 
you (the ALLEGED sender), but you did not send them and there is 
nothing you can do to prevent that. They can keep sending those 
messages regardless of you (no AV software, and not even turning off 
your mac forever can do anything about it).

Luis Sequeira
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 11, 2004, at 5:40 PM, B Gardner wrote:
I hear you but I just can't seem to justify 100.00 (per year) for a 
virus program and other stuff I just don't need. I would rather spend 
60.00 on a single program. I realize that virus on a Mac are the least 
of my problems but I am getting an amazing number of them through 
email. I believe I am passing them (unwillingly) to others who use 
Windows. I just want to take all precautions.
No, you're not. The only way to do this is to take the attachment off 
the virus e-mail, attach it to a friends e-mail address and send it to 
them.


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 12, 2004, at 5:36 AM, Mikael Byström wrote:
Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
There are some folks who will argue that Mac users need to use AV
software to protect hapless Windows users you may communicate with, 
but
transmitting a virus like that requires a deliberate act. You can't
just do it 'accidentally'.
Word viruses can survive a trip to Macs and Word and then be passed on.
Letting that happen can be a bad choice for a business relationship, no
matter if you got the file from another person.
Sigh. Looking at the logs of our AV server on the network, I see NO 
Word macro viruses found in a long long time. Moreover, modern versions 
of Word warn you when a file is opened with macros in it, and offer you 
the choice of opening it without them present. Immediately re-saving 
the document will eliminate the Macro viruses.

We have 4-500 users on our system getting Word files from all over the 
world.

--
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University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bill Buckhaults]

Can this happen by forwarding[ by Mac] an infected attachment to a pc user??
Bill
Bruce Johnson wrote:
On Aug 11, 2004, at 5:40 PM, B Gardner wrote:
I hear you but I just can't seem to justify 100.00 (per year) for a 
virus program and other stuff I just don't need. I would rather spend 
60.00 on a single program. I realize that virus on a Mac are the 
least of my problems but I am getting an amazing number of them 
through email. I believe I am passing them (unwillingly) to others 
who use Windows. I just want to take all precautions.

No, you're not. The only way to do this is to take the attachment off 
the virus e-mail, attach it to a friends e-mail address and send it to 
them.


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Bill, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Can this happen by forwarding[ by Mac] an infected attachment to a pc user??
Obviously. Though a well behaved user would of course try first to make
sure they didn't forward it.

One way is to clean the attachment with a modern word app as Bruce
suggested or as I used to do with MacLink as I wasn't using Word, while I
was exchanging files with Word users PC and Mac.


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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Looking at the logs of our AV server on the network, I see NO 
Word macro viruses found in a long long time. Moreover, modern versions 
of Word warn you when a file is opened with macros in it, and offer you 
the choice of opening it without them present. Immediately re-saving 
the document will eliminate the Macro viruses.
And everybody in the world are using modern versions of Word?

We have 4-500 users on our system getting Word files from all over the 
world.
Good for you, but that doesn't prove anything at all.

BTW, I didn't mean I have seen NEW word viruses lately, but I've seen
many being spread around.




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Re: Virus FUD (was Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5)

[Mikael Byström]

Luis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

There is no way you are passing those virus unwillingly.
Unknowingly there are ways to pass on viruses. One favorite among
people I exchange messages with are forwarding of Word files (30+
infected in the last few years) and also other formats, that they for
reasons, often obscure to me, do think are OK and vital for the message.

Some people may even pass on .scr files for some reason, but the majority
don't come from them of course. I'm sure this minority was passing them
on Unknowingly without the intention to passing on viruses.

Also, you're forgetting social viruses like hoaxmail. I regard these as
human mind viruses and obviously they don't harm computers, but these are
still annoying as they come from people you don't want to filter and that
should know better.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Timothy, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

some default setting that was chosen who knows when by who knows who 
for who knows what

Well, by who knows are the developers of Mac OS X, I'm sure.


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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 12, 2004, at 9:47 AM, Bill Buckhaults wrote:
Can this happen by forwarding[ by Mac] an infected attachment to a pc 
user??
Bill
Possibly. It depends on the person and their mail client on the other 
end, forwarding the e-mail may make the attachment harder to strip out 
and execute. But, that PC user should be running AV software.

(Note, my disdain of AV software applies ONLY to Macs; it is an 
absolutely *essential* piece of software on a Windows system.)

It still requires a deliberate act on the part of the Mac user.
Don't forward dubious attachments to people.
sigh might as well get the rest of the lecture out
Don't open dubious attachments when you get them.
Don't open attachments you don't expect.
Don't forward emailed warnings about 'viruses that nothing finds and is 
so dangerous the FBI, Bill Gates and AOL have decided to rely on an 
email tree of friends and strangers to tell you about it...' messages 
like http://tinyurl.com/6k6jl and the like.

All windows e-mail viruses in circulation forge the 'From:' header, so 
if you get an email from your friend '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' saying 'Bill Gates 
says to please to run this important upgrade of the Windows' check the 
headers;  a real AOL mail will originate at AOL somewhere, there will 
be a received from: line in there that mentions AOL.

(This makes things a problem, particularly in a corporate setting, 
since you could well see an infected mail come from inside the company. 
It still won't be from who it says it is, and if these things are going 
around your company, you have bigger problems.)

No current windows email virus in circulation actually contains the 
content it claims to have. 'HotNakedBritney.avi.exe' does NOT somehow 
contain a video of Britney in addition to the virus.

Therefore, double-clicking *harder* or *more often* will NOT extract 
that tantalizing 'HotNakedBritney.avi' out of the email.

When you click on an attachment, and the AV software pops up and says 
it's an infected file. DO NOT CALL your help desk and demand that 
someone come down and stop that from happening so you can see the 
important file it won't let you open. (True story, I swear to Dog, I 
got that phone call. No, it wasn't HotNakedBritney.avi )


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University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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Re: Virus FUD (was Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5)

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 12, 2004, at 11:18 AM, Mikael Byström wrote:
Also, you're forgetting social viruses like hoaxmail. I regard these as
human mind viruses and obviously they don't harm computers, but these 
are
still annoying as they come from people you don't want to filter and 
that
should know better.

Alas, no AV software does any good about those.
For them, you may wish to resort to hardware:
 http://tinyurl.com/4yogr, aka 'a cluestick' :-/
After 10 years we have finally gotten the majority of our users to 
recognize these as the hoaxes they are, but it took a long, long time.

(Sigh, and we've got a new crop of students next week)
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Timothy Luoma]

On Aug 12, 2004, at 2:38 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
(Note, my disdain of AV software applies ONLY to Macs; it is an 
absolutely *essential* piece of software on a Windows system.)
Only if one uses IE, Outlook (Express) and/or opens files of dubious 
origin.

I consider AV a waste of $$ and RAM for my Windows systems, but also 
practice safe computing.

TjL
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[John]

Timothy Luoma wrote:
On Aug 12, 2004, at 2:38 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
(Note, my disdain of AV software applies ONLY to Macs; it is an 
absolutely *essential* piece of software on a Windows system.)

Only if one uses IE, Outlook (Express) and/or opens files of dubious 
origin.

Not true at all! My lone Winblows box got infected with Sasser, and I 
was NOT using IE, Outlook, an I didn't open any attachments (I don't do 
email on it)! Actually I don't use that box for anything but an internet 
server for my other machines (mostly Macs) by sharing it's connection 
over my network. The hard drive had died and I replaced it with another, 
which meant a whole new reinstall of the OS (Win2k). I reconfigured my 
internet and ethernet connections, as well as my DirecPc satellite 
receiver and software (why I still had the PC in the first place) and 
let it connect. The next day I noticed that the machine was shutting it 
self down, and re-starting. Long story short, I found it was infected 
with the Sasser worm. So, just avoiding IE and Outlook, and not opening 
attachments isn't enough. Just being connected to the web is enough to 
get a WinDoze box infected these days. So I too consider AV software and 
a firewall a must for PC users.

JR
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 12, 2004, at 1:55 PM, John wrote:
Timothy Luoma wrote:
On Aug 12, 2004, at 2:38 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote:
(Note, my disdain of AV software applies ONLY to Macs; it is an 
absolutely *essential* piece of software on a Windows system.)
Only if one uses IE, Outlook (Express) and/or opens files of dubious 
origin.
Not true at all! My lone Winblows box got infected with Sasser, and I 
was NOT using IE, Outlook, an I didn't open any attachments (I don't 
do email on it)!
To be truthful, Timothy also said he 'practices safe computing' which 
would include keeping your systems up-to-date. Sasser exploited a hole 
that had been patched several weeks or months before the emergence of 
the virus, but you're right, one doesn't need to use IE, Outlook or 
open files of dubious origin to get infected.

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This is the sig who says 'Ni!'
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Re: Virus FUD (was Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5)

[Mikael Byström]

Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

After 10 years we have finally gotten the majority of our users to 
recognize these as the hoaxes they are, but it took a long, long time.

Tell me about it.  :)


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Re: Re.: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

macnifico, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Yesterday I installed the upgrade with no problems. I DIDN'T run 
permissions, the CD, etc.

and your point is?


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Laurent, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

I try to keep my systems as clean as possible and I must say that most of
the time, I don't think about running Disk Utility to repair permissions
here and there, before and after upgrades and I haven't had any serious
problem so far.

So, keep that in mind the next time you find a colorful, innovative
utility with all kind of bells and whistles that can make you fresh coffee
when you wake up and start your toaster in the morning. There ain't such
things and all those little messy extensions you keep burn precious cycles
on your system and many of them will compromise the very permissions that
you're trying to reset, not mentioning affecting the system stability and
reliability as a whole...

I wouldn't put all apps in the same basket like that. Some of these apps
are veryu useful. The ones I use haven't given me any problems and if any
piece have I removed them.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Mac OS X just works, and most people just expect it to.

Not for everyone. Audio apps working together seem to have some issues to
solve. Just check out the Mac OS X Audio sites.

I have very few problems so far, since Jaguar. So I have those
expectations like above.



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

In real life, most people have few problems with OS X.

let me guess, real life is lives approved by you? How do you find
the time for all this approval business?

I have few problems with OS X. Is that enough to become approved?



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Mikael, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

In real life, most people have few problems with OS X.

let me guess, real life is lives approved by you? How do you find
the time for all this approval business?

I have few problems with OS X. Is that enough to become approved?

I forgot to add the ; to indicate something. I'm sorry about that.
I'm sorry if anyone find ironic or sarcastic remarks offending, but
blanket statements are must be combatted somehow. I was once a person who
sometimes in the heat of the debate forgot that my experience, ever so
long, hardly could account for everyone. And I also gave blanket
statements. So I know one when I read one. 


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Laurent Daudelin]

on 12/08/04 19:47, Mikael Byström at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Bruce, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
 In real life, most people have few problems with OS X.
 
 let me guess, real life is lives approved by you? How do you find
 the time for all this approval business?
 
 I have few problems with OS X. Is that enough to become approved?

Since Bruce is a system administrator where he works, I would assume that
when he says real life, he's probably thinking about the users he has to
support. But that's just wishful thinking from me...

-Laurent.
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Logiciels Nemesys Software   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

bytesexual /bi:t`sek'shu-*l/ adj.: [rare] Said of hardware, denotes
willingness to compute or pass data in either big-endian or little-endian
format (depending, presumably, on a mode bit somewhere). See also NUXI
problem. 


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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Andrew Main]

The quote below raises the query: Which should I buy?
Which is better, DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro?
Are there price breaks for those that purchase one and
want to try the other?
Don
As I understand it, the two are different in what they do, though I'm 
not clear exactly how: DW has always been unique, i.e. it addresses a 
level of the file system that no other utility works with, and like 
many others I can report it has several times recovered disks that 
otherwise seemed hopeless. TTP does many things, but its file system 
repair, like the late Norton Disk Doctor's, is essentially a 
revved-up version of Disk Utility's Repair Disk function (or the 
classic OS's Disk First Aid). And the user reports on TTP at 
MacInTouch http://www.macintouch.com/techtool.html have been very 
mixed. So I'd recommend you get DiskWarrior, and don't bother with 
TechToolPro.

Andrew Main
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Tim Hodgson]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 4:52 am -0600, Andrew Main wrote:

The quote below raises the query: Which should I buy?
Which is better, DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro?
Are there price breaks for those that purchase one and
want to try the other?
Don

As I understand it, the two are different in what they do, though I'm 
not clear exactly how: DW has always been unique, i.e. it addresses a 
level of the file system that no other utility works with, and like 
many others I can report it has several times recovered disks that 
otherwise seemed hopeless. TTP does many things, but its file system 
repair, like the late Norton Disk Doctor's, is essentially a 
revved-up version of Disk Utility's Repair Disk function (or the 
classic OS's Disk First Aid). And the user reports on TTP at 
MacInTouch http://www.macintouch.com/techtool.html have been very 
mixed. So I'd recommend you get DiskWarrior, and don't bother with 
TechToolPro.

Tidbits (www.tidbits.com) had a very thorough report on current disk
utilities a couple of months ago - it'll be archived on their site.

TimH


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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Andrew Main]

TimH wrote:
Tidbits (www.tidbits.com) had a very thorough report on current disk
utilities a couple of months ago - it'll be archived on their site.
Indeed; here it is:
http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=07451
(Note link to TTP 4 review at right.)
Andrew Main
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

On 8/10/04 11:56 PM, Don P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The quote below raises the query: Which should I buy?
 Which is better, DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro?
 Are there price breaks for those that purchase one and
 want to try the other?

You are never too skinny, you never have too much money, your computer never
has enough RAM, and you never have too many disk utility apps.

TechTool Pro isn't just a hard drive utility, it also tests RAM, video
cards, etc etc. A worthwhile tool. DiskWarrior does one job and does it
well. Both are in my arsenal and I highly recommend both. It would be nice
if the two companies go together and offered a bundle at a discount, but
they don't.


david




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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

I use both. I use Techtool Pro, when I want to test hardware. When it comes
to repairing the OS, I use Diskwarrior. If you can only afford one know,
it's best to start with DiskWarrior. Later on, you can get TechTool Pro. If
you have a newer Mac, and you purchased AppleCare, TechTool Pro comes with
your AppleCare package.

Regards,
-- 
Aaron Willems
Network Administrator
Lieberman Productions  Philo Television

 The quote below raises the query: Which should I buy?
 Which is better, DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro?
 Are there price breaks for those that purchase one and
 want to try the other?
 Don
 



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Marcin Wichary]

Yeah, I don't know why they get mixed up either, given that OS X is so 
super-stable and all, but it seems they do.

See Tutorial: Permissions, Accounts, and File Organization
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20040107175410865
I read it, but it stops exactly where my knowledge does; as I 
mentioned, I know about Unix permissions, but I never had to repair 
them in any Unix/Linux/BSD machines I've been working on. I am still 
curious as to why you have to do it on Mac OS X.

 Marcin Wichary
e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary  Attached
w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/GUIdebook  Graphical User Interface 
gallery
w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com  10 years of Being Boring

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[George Mogiljansky]

I am not an expert, but might it have something to do
with the file system?

(I have some hunches, but best left unwritten.)

George
WS PDQ 300 MHz, 512 MB, 10.2 (no updates)

--- Marcin Wichary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Yeah, I don't know why they get mixed up either,
 given that OS X is so 
  super-stable and all, but it seems they do.
 
  See Tutorial: Permissions, Accounts, and File
 Organization
 

http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20040107175410865
 
 I read it, but it stops exactly where my knowledge
 does; as I 
 mentioned, I know about Unix permissions, but I
 never had to repair 
 them in any Unix/Linux/BSD machines I've been
 working on. I am still 
 curious as to why you have to do it on Mac OS X.
 
 
   Marcin Wichary




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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 11, 2004, at 2:23 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote:
Yeah, I don't know why they get mixed up either, given that OS X is 
so super-stable and all, but it seems they do.

See Tutorial: Permissions, Accounts, and File Organization
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20040107175410865
I read it, but it stops exactly where my knowledge does; as I 
mentioned, I know about Unix permissions, but I never had to repair 
them in any Unix/Linux/BSD machines I've been working on. I am still 
curious as to why you have to do it on Mac OS X.
I'm not sure,. but I suspect it's got something to do with the 
installer programs and the way apple does updates. no .configure, make, 
make install kind of deal as on other unices; they delete and install 
large swaths of binaries.

I know this doesn't explain why they get mangled, just that they do.
As I said, I've yet to come across a problem that fixing permissions 
actually fixed in 10.2 or 10.3. (In 10.1, yes. Stuff could get royally 
screwed up.)


--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[B Gardner]

Aaron, may I borrow some more of your expertise? What would you 
recommend in the way of Virus software?

While I have not seemed to have a problem with my Mac, I do seem to see 
alot of emails that are carrying viruses around.

But in general what do you recommend?
Thanks,
Byron Gardner
On Aug 11, 2004, at 11:34 AM, Aaron Willems wrote:
I use both. I use Techtool Pro, when I want to test hardware. When it 
comes
to repairing the OS, I use Diskwarrior. If you can only afford one 
know,
it's best to start with DiskWarrior. Later on, you can get TechTool 
Pro. If
you have a newer Mac, and you purchased AppleCare, TechTool Pro comes 
with
your AppleCare package.

Regards,
--
Aaron Willems
Network Administrator
Lieberman Productions  Philo Television
The quote below raises the query: Which should I buy?
Which is better, DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro?
Are there price breaks for those that purchase one and
want to try the other?
Don

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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

Bryon,

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't run anti-virus software on my Mac.
I don't find it necessary. I know what to look for. I just delete it when it
comes in. None of the current viruses out there effect the Mac platform.
They are all Windows viruses. It doesn't mean that someday, someone will for
make a virus for the Mac platform. We have been lucky so far.

You might want to consider running anti-virus software, if your concerned
about passing a virus to a friend on a Windows box. Do you have a .Mac
subscription. Along with getting your .Mac email account, you get a copy of
Virex and a one year subscription to versiontracker.com. Might not be a bad
deal, if your considering running anti-virus software on your Mac.

Regards,
-- 
Aaron Willems
Network Administrator
Lieberman Productions  Philo Television

 Aaron, may I borrow some more of your expertise? What would you
 recommend in the way of Virus software?
 
 While I have not seemed to have a problem with my Mac, I do seem to see
 alot of emails that are carrying viruses around.
 
 But in general what do you recommend?
 
 Thanks,
 Byron Gardner



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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 11, 2004, at 4:50 PM, B Gardner wrote:
Aaron, may I borrow some more of your expertise? What would you 
recommend in the way of Virus software?

While I have not seemed to have a problem with my Mac, I do seem to 
see alot of emails that are carrying viruses around.
Sigh. THERE ARE NO MAC VIRUSES IN THE WILD. There may be a handful of 
old viruses floating about for OS 9, but in the years since OS X has 
been released NOT ONE SINGLE OS X VIRUS has emerged.

You don't need AV software. Just delete the virus-laden e-mails.
There are some folks who will argue that Mac users need to use AV 
software to protect hapless Windows users you may communicate with, but 
transmitting a virus like that requires a deliberate act. You can't 
just do it 'accidentally'.

Besides, I think of it as evolution in action. Sorry Windows folks, but 
I'm not going to be an enabler any more. You're too stupid to switch, 
you deserve the crap you get for running Windows.

(note, this rant is informed by by a recent infestation of viruses here 
on campus. All these allegedly intelligent sysadmins bemoaning about 
how this AV product or that AV product had failed to catch the latest 
threat, while the mac admins shake their heads in disbelief...HOW MANY 
TIMES does this have to happen before people realize that there *might* 
just be a problem with their sheep-like devotion to MS...I mean, 
they're like the old joke about the guy complaining to his doctor It 
hurts when I do this! and the doctor says So stop doing that. Only 
in this joke, the guy says Oh, no Doc, that can't be right, everybody 
is doing this!

My mom had the answer for that one So if Jimmy jumped off the roof, 
you would too?)

I've not seen a new Word or Excel macro virus released in over two 
years; the default settings of Word X and Excel X (and since Office 
2000 on the Windows side) would prevent them from working.

Until (and if, this is a *big* if) there are ever Mac viruses (under OS 
X) all that AV software is, is a waste of money and computing 
resources.

I know Philip may charge in here with vague and OOOH SCARY warnings 
about how horridly insecure OS X is and we're just fooling ourselves if 
we believe that there isn't a horde of horrible things just waiting to 
happen to OS X...I say this is vastly overblown by folks with a vested 
interest in scaring people, like Intego.

I say I'll believe it when I see it happen.
An effective third party attack on OS X has yet to be demonstrated. Any 
exploit I've ever seen requires, at the very least, a local user 
account.

But it just ain't so. Out of the box OS X is the most secure consumer 
OS by a long long shot. Out of the box there isn't anything running to 
attack.

The only safer OS is OS 9.
If you wish to install AV software, by all means do so, but be aware 
that it's merely a security blanket; it doesn't actually *do* anything 
useful.

--
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Phar macy
Information Technology Group
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[B Gardner]

I hear you but I just can't seem to justify 100.00 (per year) for a 
virus program and other stuff I just don't need. I would rather spend 
60.00 on a single program. I realize that virus on a Mac are the least 
of my problems but I am getting an amazing number of them through 
email. I believe I am passing them (unwillingly) to others who use 
Windows. I just want to take all precautions.

Thanks,
Byron
On Aug 11, 2004, at 7:04 PM, Aaron Willems wrote:
Bryon,
To be perfectly honest with you, I don't run anti-virus software on my 
Mac.
I don't find it necessary. I know what to look for. I just delete it 
when it
comes in. None of the current viruses out there effect the Mac 
platform.
They are all Windows viruses. It doesn't mean that someday, someone 
will for
make a virus for the Mac platform. We have been lucky so far.

You might want to consider running anti-virus software, if your 
concerned
about passing a virus to a friend on a Windows box. Do you have a .Mac
subscription. Along with getting your .Mac email account, you get a 
copy of
Virex and a one year subscription to versiontracker.com. Might not be 
a bad
deal, if your considering running anti-virus software on your Mac.

Regards,
--
Aaron Willems
Network Administrator
Lieberman Productions  Philo Television
Aaron, may I borrow some more of your expertise? What would you
recommend in the way of Virus software?
While I have not seemed to have a problem with my Mac, I do seem to 
see
alot of emails that are carrying viruses around.

But in general what do you recommend?
Thanks,
Byron Gardner

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Re: DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Thomas Ethen]

You can't possibly spread them to anyone else unless you physically include
the virus infested attachment when you send you email to a windows machine.

Tom


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Pat Heidingsfelder]

What is the difference between running repair permissions in the 
command line and using disk utility to run it??

Pat
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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bob Gir.]

 Be sure to boot off your Panther CD first, and repair the Boot Disk,
followed by repairing disk permissions.

If the suggestions I have seen proffered time and again at other sites
like MacFixIt, etc., are accurate, you should *not* repair permissions using
disk utility *while* booted up on a Systems CD.

The argument is that your Systems CD is OS 10.x , whereas your machine
is now running OS X.y, and permissions have changed with the change in OS.

Cheers,
bob


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Pat, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

What is the difference between running repair permissions in the 
command line and using disk utility to run it??

I think nothing really, but unless Disk Utility is run with superuser
status, it may not be able to affect all folders. I do think it have this
capability by admin password, but I'm not 100%.
One could use an app like Pseudo to run DU as root.
Otherwise the point is to run Disk Utility or the command line while
booted from the latest updated system, in order to be fully correct with
all permissions settings. 


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Aaron, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Excellent advice. For those people who don't feel comfortable in using the
terminal, following my advice will work just fine.

Yes, but it's actually even better to do what you suggest with Disk
Utlity while booted from the incrementally updated system as the
Permissions change somewhat with updates.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Jim, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

Hi, how and why is this upgrade different from the others that we must 
do these procedures before the update? 

I'm not sure, but this advice about repairing permissions is old and
still stands up as good preparation before any update or application
installation. It have been the finding that if you adhere to it, you're
less likely to experience problems.

Permissions gone bad are a root to many problems under OS X, so I repair
permissions on a regular basis if I make a lot of changes to the HD structure.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Andrew Main]

Aaron Willems [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Be
sure to boot off your Panther CD first, and repair the Boot Disk, followed
by repairing disk permissions. DO THIS BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE UPDATE! After
you install the update, be sure to boot off the CD one more time, and run
disk permissions once again.
Sorry, I disagree. Yes, both these repair routines should be done 
both before and after installing any major update (and regularly 
anyway), but not as you prescribe. There are two kinds of disk repair 
available in Disk Utility: Repair Disk Permissions (the buttons on 
the left) and Repair Disk (buttons on the right).

Repair Disk is the same job that was done in the classic Mac OS by 
Disk First Aid (repairing the HFS file system); although it can be 
done in OS 9 by running Disk First Aid from the boot disk (i.e. it 
can work on its own active disk, which most repair utilities cannot), 
in OS X (like in pre-8.5 versions of the classic Mac OS) it must be 
done from another boot disk, e.g. the Panther CD. So yes, to Repair 
Disk, start from the Panther CD. (This job can also be done in OS X 
via the command line by starting in Single User Mode, or 
automatically by starting in Safe Boot Mode; but that's another, 
longer discussion.)

However, Repair Permissions should always be done on the boot disk 
FROM the boot disk. Why? Because Repair Permissions consults 
/Library/Receipts to determine what the correct permissions are, and 
the Panther CD only has receipts for the software versions it 
contains (e.g. 10.3.0 and the apps that came with it), while the 
receipts on your HD have been updated with everything you've 
installed since then. Repair Permissions should be done from the CD 
only in extremity, when the computer won't startup properly; and then 
once the computer is running right, it should be redone from the boot 
disk to bring the permissions up to date.

I do maintenance usually in the following order: DiskWarrior 
(starting from the DW 3.x CD), then Repair Disk (starting from the 
Panther CD, or via Single User Mode), then Repair Permissions 
(starting from my normal boot volume). I also have the Macaroni 
utility installed, which automatically repairs permissions once a 
week (or however I have it programmed) as well as covering other 
maintenance tasks; this automation should be built into OS X, but 
until Apple gets around to admitting that OS X does require regular 
maintenance, I buy licenses for Macaroni by the dozen and install it 
in every OS X Mac I set up.

Repair Permissions is important; do it early and often, but always 
(if possible) from your boot volume.

Andrew Main
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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 9, 2004, at 5:16 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
Since we are on the subject(somewhat,)can I update
from 10.1.5 directly to panther? Or do I have to have
Jaguar first?
No. You can go right to 10.3. all paid upgrades are like that, they 
don't require the intervening paid upgrades.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 10, 2004, at 5:12 AM, Pat Heidingsfelder wrote:
What is the difference between running repair permissions in the 
command line and using disk utility to run it??

Nothing.

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 10, 2004, at 7:30 AM, Andrew Main wrote:
I do maintenance usually in the following order: DiskWarrior (starting 
from the DW 3.x CD), then Repair Disk (starting from the Panther CD, 
or via Single User Mode), then Repair Permissions (starting from my 
normal boot volume). I also have the Macaroni utility installed, which 
automatically repairs permissions once a week (or however I have it 
programmed) as well as covering other maintenance tasks; this 
automation should be built into OS X, but until Apple gets around to 
admitting that OS X does require regular maintenance, I buy licenses 
for Macaroni by the dozen and install it in every OS X Mac I set up.
This is way overkill.
There isn't ONE of the many OS X systems here that we do this to, and 
I've only ever had problems with three of them: one hard drive failure, 
one messed up upgrade, and one user-induced catastrophe. (Hey I don't 
need these files! OS X won't let me delete them, so I'll boot into OS 
9. Look at this, this /etc folder. That must just be un-needed junk, 
out it goes...)

If you're having file or disk corruption that often you have other 
problems, such as bad hardware or poor power. (everyone, and I mean 
EVERYONE should use a UPS with thier desktop Mac. Powerbooks have 
separate power supplies which can isolate the PB somewhat, and lugging 
about a 15-lb UPS is kind of contrary to the whole 'portable' concept, 
but one for home for everything to plug into is not a bad idea.)

OSX isn't that fragile...heck *Windows* isn't that fragile!
Repair Permissions is important; do it early and often, but always (if 
possible) from your boot volume.


--
Bruce Johnson
This is the sig who says 'Ni!'
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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

You have to purchase 10.3, Panther, in order this run this update.

Aaron

 
 Since we are on the subject(somewhat,)can I update
 from 10.1.5 directly to panther? Or do I have to have
 Jaguar first?
 
 Michael




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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

That's fine.
-- 
Aaron Willems

 My boot CD is only 10.3.  Is this going to be a problem?
 
 Z
 
 THE BLUETOOTH MASTER



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

It's standard policy. Whenever there is an OS update, you should always run
disk permissions before you install the update.
-- 
Aaron Willems

 Hi, how and why is this upgrade different from the others that we must
 do these procedures before the update?  Thanks, Jim.
 On Aug 9, 2004, at 5:19 PM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

Nothing. Most people, don't feel comfortable using the command line. So my
policy, is to avoid it.
-- 
Aaron Willems

 
 What is the difference between running repair permissions in the
 command line and using disk utility to run it??
 
 Pat



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

I disagree. You should read Macfixit more often. Many people have problems
after installing an OS X update. Better to be safe than sorry. By the way,
the advice I gave comes straight from MACFIXIT.
-- 
Aaron Willems

 
 OSX isn't that fragile...heck *Windows* isn't that fragile!



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Andrew Main]

I read MacInTouch and MacFixIt every day, and am appalled at how 
disastrously messy OS X -- which was supposed to solve all the 
problems we were having with the classic OS -- has turned out to be 
for many users. The difference is that unlike OS 9 (and earlier), 
when trouble comes to OS X it's often impossible for a non-geek to 
figure out. If I were attracted to learning arcane command-line 
stuff, I'd have gotten a PC in 1988 instead of a Mac. The Mac was 
easy enough for a clever non-geek like myself to figure out that I've 
been making my living doing Mac support for over a decade; but OS X 
is a whole other level. True, it's pretty robust, but when it does go 
wrong, it really goes wrong. And it's a much bigger job to reinstall.

From today's MacFixIt:
1. Make sure your hard drive is in good shape: Boot from the OS X 
Install CD and run Disk Utility's Repair Disk function (or use a 
third-party drive utility such as DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro).
2. When booted from the volume containing Mac OS X, run Disk 
Utility's Repair Disk Permissions function.
3. Install the update.
4. After rebooting, again run Repair Disk Permissions.

Note item #2.
Andrew Main
I disagree. You should read Macfixit more often. Many people have problems
after installing an OS X update. Better to be safe than sorry. By the way,
the advice I gave comes straight from MACFIXIT.
--
Aaron Willems

  OSX isn't that fragile...heck *Windows* isn't that fragile!
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Re: Re.: OS 10.3.5

[Bruce Johnson]

On Aug 10, 2004, at 12:21 PM, macnifico wrote:
Hi, Listers!
Yesterday I installed the upgrade with no problems. I DIDN'T run 
permissions, the CD, etc.
However, I did run OnyX a few days earlier.
The upgrade is stable, but I do not find it faster.
There were a number of security fixes in this one, but the really big 
improvements were seen by people with NVidia cards in their desktops. 
There were a lot of problems with those in 10.3.4.

No speed-related fixes I saw in the notes.
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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Laurent Daudelin]

On 10/08/04 15:48, Andrew Main [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I read MacInTouch and MacFixIt every day, and am appalled at how
 disastrously messy OS X -- which was supposed to solve all the
 problems we were having with the classic OS -- has turned out to be
 for many users. The difference is that unlike OS 9 (and earlier),
 when trouble comes to OS X it's often impossible for a non-geek to
 figure out. If I were attracted to learning arcane command-line
 stuff, I'd have gotten a PC in 1988 instead of a Mac. The Mac was
 easy enough for a clever non-geek like myself to figure out that I've
 been making my living doing Mac support for over a decade; but OS X
 is a whole other level. True, it's pretty robust, but when it does go
 wrong, it really goes wrong. And it's a much bigger job to reinstall.
 
 From today's MacFixIt:
 
 1. Make sure your hard drive is in good shape: Boot from the OS X
 Install CD and run Disk Utility's Repair Disk function (or use a
 third-party drive utility such as DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro).
 2. When booted from the volume containing Mac OS X, run Disk
 Utility's Repair Disk Permissions function.
 3. Install the update.
 4. After rebooting, again run Repair Disk Permissions.

While I generally agree that OS X still has some problems, I think it's a
vast improvement over OS 9 and the advantages outweigh the non-geek factor
of OS 9 which, should I remind you, is, at the core, a system that was
designed around 1983 and which, when it came out about 4 years ago, still
had large portions that were in 68000 code even though PowerMacs replaced
regular Macs over 10 years ago!

My only slight gripe at Apple is that they left too many opened doors for
developers to exploit and come up with all those enhancements that can
radically change the look and feel of the core system.

While I myself use some extensions to provide more functionality, as a
software developer that distribute its software over the Internet and
support it, I'm amazed by all the gunk, gadgets and what's not that regular
users will install in their account then later complain that their system is
unstable or require too much geeky maintenance. If they were keeping their
system clean, they would avoid far less problems, but, of course, it is not
the developers of all those nifty enhancers that will tell them since
they're charging for those utilities.

I try to keep my systems as clean as possible and I must say that most of
the time, I don't think about running Disk Utility to repair permissions
here and there, before and after upgrades and I haven't had any serious
problem so far.

So, keep that in mind the next time you find a colorful, innovative
utility with all kind of bells and whistles that can make you fresh coffee
when you wake up and start your toaster in the morning. There ain't such
things and all those little messy extensions you keep burn precious cycles
on your system and many of them will compromise the very permissions that
you're trying to reset, not mentioning affecting the system stability and
reliability as a whole...

-Laurent.
-- 

Laurent Daudelin Developer, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Washington, DC, USA
 Usual disclaimers apply ***


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Eugene Lee]

On Tue, Aug 10, 2004 at 12:03:50PM -0700, Aaron Willems wrote:
: 
: I disagree. You should read Macfixit more often. Many people have problems
: after installing an OS X update. Better to be safe than sorry. By the way,
: the advice I gave comes straight from MACFIXIT.

MacFixit is a guide, not a bible.


-- 
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eugene at anime dot net

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Marcin Wichary]

Repair Permissions is important; do it early and often, but always (if 
possible) from your boot volume.
Could someone kindly explain to me (or point to a website that does so) 
why Mac OS X needs this procedure from time to time? I am familiar with 
the concept of Unix permissions, I just find it strange that they get 
mixed up and need to get repaired manually...

 Marcin Wichary
e:\ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary  Attached
w:\ www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/GUIdebook  Graphical User Interface 
gallery
w:\ www.10yearsofbeingboring.com  10 years of Being Boring

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Andrew Main]

Marcin Wichary wrote:
Repair Permissions is important; do it early and often, but always 
(if possible) from your boot volume.
Could someone kindly explain to me (or point to a website that does 
so) why Mac OS X needs this procedure from time to time? I am 
familiar with the concept of Unix permissions, I just find it 
strange that they get mixed up and need to get repaired manually...
Yeah, I don't know why they get mixed up either, given that OS X is 
so super-stable and all, but it seems they do.

See Tutorial: Permissions, Accounts, and File Organization
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?story=20040107175410865
Andrew Main
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DW or TTP? fork from Re: OS 10.3.5

[Don P.]

The quote below raises the query: Which should I buy?
Which is better, DiskWarrior or TechTool Pro?
Are there price breaks for those that purchase one and
want to try the other?
Don

 From today's MacFixIt:

1. Make sure your hard drive is in good shape: Boot
from the OS X 
Install CD and run Disk Utility's Repair Disk function
(or use a 
third-party drive utility such as DiskWarrior or
TechTool Pro).
2. When booted from the volume containing Mac OS X,
run Disk 
Utility's Repair Disk Permissions function.
3. Install the update.
4. After rebooting, again run Repair Disk Permissions.

Note item #2.

Andrew Main

I disagree. You should read Macfixit more often. Many
people have 
problems
after installing an OS X update. Better to be safe
than sorry. By the 
way,
the advice I gave comes straight from MACFIXIT.
--
Aaron Willems


   OSX isn't that fragile...heck *Windows* isn't
that fragile!




__
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OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

I just installed OS 10.3.5. I've been running it for 2 hours now with no
problems. I give this advice to anyone who's planning on installing it. Be
sure to boot off your Panther CD first, and repair the Boot Disk, followed
by repairing disk permissions. DO THIS BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE UPDATE! After
you install the update, be sure to boot off the CD one more time, and run
disk permissions once again.

By following this simple advice, you can avoid most major catastrophes.

Regards
-- 
Aaron Willems
Network Administrator
Lieberman Productions  Philo Television



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Alejandro]

Thanks for the Advise.


--- Aaron Willems [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I just installed OS 10.3.5. I've been running it for
 2 hours now with no
 problems. I give this advice to anyone who's
 planning on installing it. Be
 sure to boot off your Panther CD first, and repair
 the Boot Disk, followed
 by repairing disk permissions. DO THIS BEFORE YOU
 INSTALL THE UPDATE! After
 you install the update, be sure to boot off the CD
 one more time, and run
 disk permissions once again.
 
 By following this simple advice, you can avoid most
 major catastrophes.
 
 Regards
 -- 
 Aaron Willems
 Network Administrator
 Lieberman Productions  Philo Television
 
 
 
 -- 
 G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/
 and...
 
  Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com  |
 Refurbished Drives |
  -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks  |
   CDRWs on Sale!  |
 
   Support Low End Mac
 http://lowendmac.com/lists/support.html
 
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 http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-books.html
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 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://www.mail-archive.com/g-books%40mail.maclaunch.com/
 
 
 

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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Mikael Byström]

Aaron, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

I just installed OS 10.3.5. I've been running it for 2 hours now with no
problems. I give this advice to anyone who's planning on installing it. Be
sure to boot off your Panther CD first, and repair the Boot Disk, followed
by repairing disk permissions. DO THIS BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE UPDATE! After
you install the update, be sure to boot off the CD one more time, and run
disk permissions once again.

By following this simple advice, you can avoid most major catastrophes.

One could do this from the command line like so:

sudo diskutil repairPermissions /  (press return and write your admin pass)

This is better than using the Panther CD as all the latest info from the
updates is regarded.


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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Aaron Willems]

Excellent advice. For those people who don't feel comfortable in using the
terminal, following my advice will work just fine.
-- 
Aaron Willems
Network Administrator
Lieberman Productions  Philo Television

 One could do this from the command line like so:
 
 sudo diskutil repairPermissions /  (press return and write your admin pass)
 
 This is better than using the Panther CD as all the latest info from the
 updates is regarded.



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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Michael Richardson]

Since we are on the subject(somewhat,)can I update
from 10.1.5 directly to panther? Or do I have to have
Jaguar first?

Michael
--- Aaron Willems [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Excellent advice. For those people who don't feel
 comfortable in using the
 terminal, following my advice will work just fine.
 -- 
 




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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Zoltan Batiz]

On Aug 9, 2004, at 4:52 PM, Aaron Willems wrote:
I just installed OS 10.3.5. I've been running it for 2 hours now with 
no
problems. I give this advice to anyone who's planning on installing 
it. Be
sure to boot off your Panther CD first, and repair the Boot Disk, 
followed
by repairing disk permissions. DO THIS BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE UPDATE! 
After
you install the update, be sure to boot off the CD one more time, and 
run
disk permissions once again.

By following this simple advice, you can avoid most major catastrophes.
Regards
--
Aaron Willems
My boot CD is only 10.3.  Is this going to be a problem?
Z
THE BLUETOOTH MASTER
--
G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and...
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-- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks  |   CDRWs on Sale!  |
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Re: OS 10.3.5

[Jim Scolman]

Hi, how and why is this upgrade different from the others that we must 
do these procedures before the update?  Thanks, Jim.
On Aug 9, 2004, at 5:19 PM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:

On Aug 9, 2004, at 4:52 PM, Aaron Willems wrote:
I just installed OS 10.3.5. I've been running it for 2 hours now with 
no
problems. I give this advice to anyone who's planning on installing 
it. Be
sure to boot off your Panther CD first, and repair the Boot Disk, 
followed
by repairing disk permissions. DO THIS BEFORE YOU INSTALL THE UPDATE! 
After
you install the update, be sure to boot off the CD one more time, and 
run
disk permissions once again.

By following this simple advice, you can avoid most major 
catastrophes.

Regards
--
Aaron Willems
My boot CD is only 10.3.  Is this going to be a problem?
Z
THE BLUETOOTH MASTER
--
G-Books is sponsored by http://lowendmac.com/ and...
Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com  | Refurbished Drives 
|
-- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks  |   CDRWs on Sale!  
|

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