[LUTE] Re: lute-straps

[Jarosław Lipski]

Yes, very nice indeed. This is what I was looking for.
Thank you Anthony!
Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 1:20 PM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] lute-straps

Dear All
In a previous message I mentioned that here in Paris, there was a
strap maker who will make embroidered lute-straps to measure,
They are padded, and the inner surface is generally of non-slip
velvet. For attaching them, he uses Japanese Mokuba cords and also
special string types that can carry 50 to 60 kilos.
The maker, José Antonio Ahumada ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), tells me
that he usually chooses colours that set-off the colour and grain of  
the lute,
although, it could be your dress, Caroline.
He can make them in black for those playing in
orchestras, while children, apparently
prefer panther, or tigre patterns.
A few pictures can be seen from the French lute site,
from
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/Le_luth/message/5306

Regards
Anthony



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Edward Martin]

I sometimes use a very satin like ribbon.  Works very well.

ed

At 03:29 PM 8/24/2006 +0200, Luca Manassero wrote:
>I do the same... A nice silk strap in whatever color I can find. And I
>sit on the tail of it, as Hopkinson Smith does. It greatly help stability.
>
>Luca
>
>Wayne Cripps on 24/08/2006 14.25 wrote:
> > I use string.. cotton or whatever.
> >
> >   Wayne
> >
> >
> >> I would like to know from lutenists who use straps for
> >> your instruments where you get them from. Do you use
> >> generic guitar straps, or make your own, or is there a
> >> supplier of straps that are specific to the lute?
> >> Also, from you experience are there particular types
> >> of material that are preferable, and widths, etc.
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >>
> >> Jason
> >>
> >> __
> >> Do You Yahoo!?
> >> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Peter W Jones]

Further to this e-mail, I have just spent the last 10 minutes creating a 
glorious diagram with Microsoft Paint of my lute strap arrangement.  In 
order that I feel justified in doing so, I request - nay, expect - that at 
least a couple of people will e-mail me asking for it...


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter W Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:07 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> Be prepared for a rather baffling description:
>
> For my 8-course lute, I use just a longish length of broad ribbon which I
> bought for about 50p from a haberdashers.  I tie one end to the peg box 
> with
> a bigish loop, so that it can easily be moved up and down the pegs for
> adjustment.  I then tie a loop of old fretgut to the button on the end
> clasp.  The loose end of the ribbon goes through the loop of gut and then
> comes back up to the loop of ribbon at the peg box.  The loose end then 
> goes
> through the loop of ribbon and then is tied with a tight slip-knot onto 
> the
> length of ribbon running from the peg box to the button.  This means that
> you can adjust the strap really easily, by sliding the slip-knot up and 
> down
> the ribbon.
>
> If that is too confusing and someone really wants to know how it works,
> e-mail me and I can try send you a diagram.
>
> For my theorbo, I use a very broad, padded and spongy/rubbery electric 
> bass
> guitar strap.  It has a little bit of stretch in it, but not much - 
> perfect.
>
> Playing without a strap I find very difficult.  It means that you often 
> have
> to contort your legs into funny positions, which can lead to back 
> problems.
> Also, sometimes it results in one playing the lute in a slightly different
> position every time, which means that consistency of tone is affected. 
> But
> then again, I know someone who claims that more problems and back pain was
> caused using a strap than not, so (like so many things) it is a matter of
> personal taste and experience.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.0.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 22/08/2006
>
> 

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[David Rastall]

On Aug 24, 2006, at 11:21 AM, Bernd Haegemann wrote:

> A very good and romantic method is stealing it from a teacher.
> I did it during a summer school in the Tchech republic.
> A very wonderful teacher (and player) gave me her strap to try it  
> for some
> days, I went home without returning it to her.

Remind me never to loan you anything!

> It is a wide E-guitar-strap

Would that be an electronic guitar??

> as well as a wonderful souvenir.

Reminds me of people who streal ashtrays from hotels as "souvenirs"  
of their lovely vacations.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com




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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Sean Smith]

Jason,

I decided to try a strap at Paul Beier's suggestion. I went to a few 
Goodwill stores in the area and finally found a 1.75" (40mm) wide black 
lightweight leather belt. I cut the ends and put one large hole w/ a 
slit in it to snugly go over the peg. I put two holes in the other to 
run a long dark shoelace loop from there to the pegbox and back. When 
in the case, the strap's length lies over the strings and just comes to 
the nut.

Works great standing and sitting.

I tried the thin black ribbon route for a while but I found the belt's 
string loop going to widely-spaced pegs in the pegbox greatly reduces 
the lute's tendancy to rotate. A piece of chamois on the right leg 
keeps it from wandering, too.

I could send you a photo if you'd like.

Sean

ps, my apologies if this appears twice. I didn't see it appear for a 
while so I resent it.

On Aug 24, 2006, at 2:19 AM, Jason Ferry wrote:

> I would like to know from lutenists who use straps for
> your instruments where you get them from. Do you use
> generic guitar straps, or make your own, or is there a
> supplier of straps that are specific to the lute?
> Also, from you experience are there particular types
> of material that are preferable, and widths, etc.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jason
>
> __
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 10:38 AM 8/24/2006, Rob Dorsey wrote:
>I'm going to take a chance and cut to the chase. All arcane and archaic
>solutions aside, a good and wide guitar strap hanging from proper strap
>buttons at the end cap and under the extreme forward end of the body is a
>most secure and comfortable solution. I've tried lap chamois, ribbons, gut
>and string, all pale in comparison to a good strap. They are relatively
>inexpensive, most luthiers will put strap buttons on your lute for a
>reasonable charge and they are so solid that one can play standing as easily
>as sitting.

This certainly is a personal thing.  I usually play seated and prefer no 
strap at all, from diminutive mandolino to Neapolitan mandolin to 
speculative vihuela to lutes to guitars.  I came to this practice after 
years of happy strap use on modern guitars.  Granted, I do not have to 
grapple with theorbo, archlute, bass colascione, or other neck-heavy 
things.  With non-waisted things, I usually elevate the right leg using a 
foot stool or by crossing right over left.  I do sometimes use chamois, 
especially where I'll have a small instrument (i.e., mandolin incarnations) 
on my lap for extended times.

Best,
Eugene 



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Rob Dorsey]

 
Chris et al,

I'm going to take a chance and cut to the chase. All arcane and archaic
solutions aside, a good and wide guitar strap hanging from proper strap
buttons at the end cap and under the extreme forward end of the body is a
most secure and comfortable solution. I've tried lap chamois, ribbons, gut
and string, all pale in comparison to a good strap. They are relatively
inexpensive, most luthiers will put strap buttons on your lute for a
reasonable charge and they are so solid that one can play standing as easily
as sitting. I've stood behind a small consort and hammered away with my
little 120 theorbo hanging from a strap with no problem. It also aids
consistency in playing for a beginner in that it pulls the lute into a
consistent position every time, regardless of what you are sitting on (park
bench or soft sofa).

Put strap buttons on your lute if it doesn't have them. If you don't have
access to a luthier, you can order a couple of buttons from LMI
(http://www.lmii.com ) or Stewart-MacDonald (http://www.stewmac.com) get out
the old drill and put them in. A 1/4 (6mm) drill will probably get it
(measure it before you drill). Wax the shaft, no glue is needed usually, and
stick it in firmly. Of course, the button's shaft is usually built at a 1/30
taper like a peg so if you can get a peg reamer or an industrial reamer at
or near 1/30 taper, it's infinitely better.

Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com




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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[chriswilke]

Ed,


Wow, this is from a while ago.  Anyway, my
interpretation of the "hanging from a button"
technique was that there was a very taught piece of
gut stretched across the actual surface of the back of
the lute, which then "sat" on a button from your coat.

Maybe I'm completely wrong about this - I've never
tried it myself - but I pictured it rather like a
picture frame with a super tight wire that hangs from
a nail.  Unlike a frame, however, the lute, being
bowl-backed, would need to be in direct contact with
your body/coat/button (or it would just roll forward).
 Unless one were very stiff with posture, I'd imagine
that the button would scrape against the surface of
the back of the instrument when you played.

Anyway, I don't do this.  I just use a regular old
guitar strap.  I prefer the nylon ones because they're
quite light.


Chris

--- Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On May 4, 2006, at 12:11 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Question: Wouldn't hanging your lute from a button
> > scratch the heck out of the back of your
> instrument?
> > Even if it doesn't move around alot, I would think
> the
> > finish at the contact point would get very worn.
> 
> I would guess no, not unless there was a button
> touching the lute  
> underneath the one that the lute is hanging from.
> You said "hanging",  
> so by definition that means the button wouldn't be
> touching the lute.
> 
> Another approach is to use a saxophone strap or
> classical guitar  
> strap instead of a loop attached to a button, then
> you could wear a  
> buttonless shirt. Now as far as the twine which is
> stretched between  
> the two pegs goes, if that chafs the finish of the
> middle rib, I  
> don't know. I experimented with this 25 years ago
> but only for a  
> short time. It felt very odd to me to have just one
> point of support.  
> I use a standard guitar strap configuration, that is
> both ends  
> attached to the back of the lute, NOT one end going
> to the pegbox.  
> I'm used to it after 30 years.
> cheers,
> 
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
> 
> 


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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[David Rastall]

On Aug 24, 2006, at 5:19 AM, Jason Ferry wrote:

> I would like to know from lutenists who use straps for
> your instruments where you get them from. Do you use
> generic guitar straps, or make your own, or is there a
> supplier of straps that are specific to the lute?
> Also, from you experience are there particular types
> of material that are preferable, and widths, etc.

I have a couple of lightweight guitar straps that I use for my  
lutes.  One, made by E. F. Martin, I particularly like because it's  
light and wide, and seems to sit well across my shoulders.  Or I can  
use a length of half-inch wide webbing material (the kind that's used  
for handles on tote bags?) that goes under my right arm and attaches  
to the left-hand end of the lute.  It holds the left end of the lute  
up, while the body sits on my right leg.

DR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com




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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Ed Durbrow]

On May 4, 2006, at 12:11 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Question: Wouldn't hanging your lute from a button
> scratch the heck out of the back of your instrument?
> Even if it doesn't move around alot, I would think the
> finish at the contact point would get very worn.

I would guess no, not unless there was a button touching the lute  
underneath the one that the lute is hanging from. You said "hanging",  
so by definition that means the button wouldn't be touching the lute.

Another approach is to use a saxophone strap or classical guitar  
strap instead of a loop attached to a button, then you could wear a  
buttonless shirt. Now as far as the twine which is stretched between  
the two pegs goes, if that chafs the finish of the middle rib, I  
don't know. I experimented with this 25 years ago but only for a  
short time. It felt very odd to me to have just one point of support.  
I use a standard guitar strap configuration, that is both ends  
attached to the back of the lute, NOT one end going to the pegbox.  
I'm used to it after 30 years.
cheers,

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)

[bill kilpatrick]

if i understand you correctly then this is where the
men get separated from the boys ... 

i screwed the peg into the butt end of my oud -
knowing there was a block of wood large enough to
support it.  screwing another peg THROUGH! one of the
staves making the bowl gives me the fan-tans just
thinking about it.

most ouds have 12 peg holes and 11 pegs - the single
bass string being in accord with the remaining paired
courses.  i simply threaded a leather thong through
the tiniest, empty peg-hole at the top.

squeamishly - bill

--- Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would assume if you make the mistake of screwing
> the peg into the joint
> itself you will have a problem, the peg should be
> screwed into the neck
> block.
> 
> Vance Wood.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "guy_and_liz Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> 
> Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 6:32 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about
> straps and lutes)
> 
> 
> >
> > A lot of folks, myself included, attach their
> straps like that, and this
> is
> > the first I've heard of anyone having any problems
> with the neck joint.
> >
> > >From: bill kilpatrick
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: lute net 
> > >Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about
> straps and lutes)
> > >Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:27:50 +0100 (BST)
> > >
> > >i screwed one of those strap pegs into the butt
> end of
> > >my oud, made a leather strap with leather thong
> to
> > >attach it to the peg box and i have to say it
> looked
> > >ok - comfortable too - but i just pulled it all
> off
> > >again.
> > >
> > >the weakest point on an oud - i presume it's also
> for
> > >a lute - is where the neck joins the body.   both
> my
> > >ouds - one cheap, the other not - started to
> buckle at
> > >this point, thus causing string buzz and it
> occurred
> > >to me (duh! ... duh-duh!!) that placing an over
> the
> > >shoulder strap on the instrument puts tugging
> pressure
> > >at both ends and probably helped to bend it back
> on
> > >itself, aggravating the aforementioned buckle at
> the
> > >neck/body join.
> > >
> > >if someone warned me of this beforehand, i
> obviously
> > >didn't get it.
> > >
> > >- bill
> > >
> > >early music charango ...
> http://groups.google.com/group/charango
> > >
> > >Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >To get on or off this list see list information
> at
> >
>
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 

early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)

[Vance Wood]

I would assume if you make the mistake of screwing the peg into the joint
itself you will have a problem, the peg should be screwed into the neck
block.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "guy_and_liz Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2006 6:32 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)


>
> A lot of folks, myself included, attach their straps like that, and this
is
> the first I've heard of anyone having any problems with the neck joint.
>
> >From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: lute net 
> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)
> >Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:27:50 +0100 (BST)
> >
> >i screwed one of those strap pegs into the butt end of
> >my oud, made a leather strap with leather thong to
> >attach it to the peg box and i have to say it looked
> >ok - comfortable too - but i just pulled it all off
> >again.
> >
> >the weakest point on an oud - i presume it's also for
> >a lute - is where the neck joins the body.   both my
> >ouds - one cheap, the other not - started to buckle at
> >this point, thus causing string buzz and it occurred
> >to me (duh! ... duh-duh!!) that placing an over the
> >shoulder strap on the instrument puts tugging pressure
> >at both ends and probably helped to bend it back on
> >itself, aggravating the aforementioned buckle at the
> >neck/body join.
> >
> >if someone warned me of this beforehand, i obviously
> >didn't get it.
> >
> >- bill
> >
> >early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango
> >
> >Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >To get on or off this list see list information at
> >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)

[bill kilpatrick]

during the course of this thread someone suggested
putting a loose piece of chamois between the bowl and
paunch.  normally i put chamois on my thigh to keep
the bowl from slipping but we played at a banquet last
night and while standing and playing, it worked there
as well.   

there's always been a resistance to the strap in HIP
quarters and it occurred to me there might be a
genuine reason for not doing so - having to do with
the delicate structure of the lute.  

what could attest to you never having this problem
could be the construction quality of your instrument.

- bill
  
--- guy_and_liz Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> A lot of folks, myself included, attach their straps
> like that, and this is 
> the first I've heard of anyone having any problems
> with the neck joint.
> 
> >From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: lute net 
> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about
> straps and lutes)
> >Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:27:50 +0100 (BST)
> >
> >i screwed one of those strap pegs into the butt end
> of
> >my oud, made a leather strap with leather thong to
> >attach it to the peg box and i have to say it
> looked
> >ok - comfortable too - but i just pulled it all off
> >again.
> >
> >the weakest point on an oud - i presume it's also
> for
> >a lute - is where the neck joins the body.   both
> my
> >ouds - one cheap, the other not - started to buckle
> at
> >this point, thus causing string buzz and it
> occurred
> >to me (duh! ... duh-duh!!) that placing an over the
> >shoulder strap on the instrument puts tugging
> pressure
> >at both ends and probably helped to bend it back on
> >itself, aggravating the aforementioned buckle at
> the
> >neck/body join.
> >
> >if someone warned me of this beforehand, i
> obviously
> >didn't get it.
> >
> >- bill
> >
> >early music charango ...
> http://groups.google.com/group/charango
> >
> >Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
> >To get on or off this list see list information at
>
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 

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[LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)

[guy_and_liz Smith]

A lot of folks, myself included, attach their straps like that, and this is 
the first I've heard of anyone having any problems with the neck joint.

>From: bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: lute net 
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)
>Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 16:27:50 +0100 (BST)
>
>i screwed one of those strap pegs into the butt end of
>my oud, made a leather strap with leather thong to
>attach it to the peg box and i have to say it looked
>ok - comfortable too - but i just pulled it all off
>again.
>
>the weakest point on an oud - i presume it's also for
>a lute - is where the neck joins the body.   both my
>ouds - one cheap, the other not - started to buckle at
>this point, thus causing string buzz and it occurred
>to me (duh! ... duh-duh!!) that placing an over the
>shoulder strap on the instrument puts tugging pressure
>at both ends and probably helped to bend it back on
>itself, aggravating the aforementioned buckle at the
>neck/body join.
>
>if someone warned me of this beforehand, i obviously
>didn't get it.
>
>- bill
>
>early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango
>
>Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: lute straps (genuinely about straps and lutes)

[bill kilpatrick]

i screwed one of those strap pegs into the butt end of
my oud, made a leather strap with leather thong to
attach it to the peg box and i have to say it looked
ok - comfortable too - but i just pulled it all off
again.

the weakest point on an oud - i presume it's also for
a lute - is where the neck joins the body.   both my
ouds - one cheap, the other not - started to buckle at
this point, thus causing string buzz and it occurred
to me (duh! ... duh-duh!!) that placing an over the
shoulder strap on the instrument puts tugging pressure
at both ends and probably helped to bend it back on
itself, aggravating the aforementioned buckle at the
neck/body join.

if someone warned me of this beforehand, i obviously
didn't get it.

- bill 

early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango

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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Martin,
Thanks for two very interesting mailings - I very much
agree with what you say in both of them. There is plenty of
evidence from the sixteenth century to lend further support to
your  point of view.

Dinko Fabris writes in relation to the rules from the Capirola Lute book:

"Another startling practice hinted at is the use of the thumb to stop the
sixth course, although his advice is not to use it often: 'et manco che
adoperi el deo groso, e piu bel al veder sul manego' (to paraphrase: the
neck of the lute is prettier the less you use the thumb). (2) The use of
this technique in the first half of the sixteenth century, which may seem
strange to us now but has a parallel in folk and rock guitar technique, is
corroborated by at least one authoratitive theoretical treatise which will
be discussed shortly, that of Silvestro Ganassi."

The quote from Ganassi which follows shortly after the above passage is from
his rules for left hand fingering:

"Ganassi also advocates 'the thumb to be that which helps the hand, by
keeping it steady, to serve the fingers' ('il dedo police per essere quello
che aiuta essa mano in servigio delle deda che è il tenirla ferma'), and
reiterates Capirola's unusual advice that 'sometimes one can use it to play
the contrabass string on any fret' ('alla volte el si puo accomodarsi su la
corde contrabassa su ogni tasto').

Coincidentally, the book that these quotes are taken from (Performance on
Lute, Guitar and Vihuela, (CUP, Cambridge, 1997)) sports a rather fine
sketch
by Raphael on the front cover of a lutenist whose left hand is wrapped
completely around the neck of his instrument (it's early 16c, so it may
be a 5 course lute). Giorgio Vasari writes in his life of Raphael: "In fact,
whereas pictures by others may be called simply pictures, those painted
by Raphael are truth itself: for in his figures the flesh seems to be
moving, they breathe, their pulses beat, and they are utterly true to life."
(from the "Lives of the Artists" translated by George Bull).

This concept of truth to life is fundemental to Renaissance art -
Shakespeare has Hamlet speaking of "holding the mirror up to nature."
The idea that a painter's model would simply pick up a lute,
hold it anyhow, and the artist would draw it,  flies in the face of what is
known about the practice of 16c artists. And in their work, where we find
portrayals of lute players, we find this left hand position where the thumb
wraps around the neck over and over again: the famous supposed
portrait of Francesco da Milano by Marco Campi (see the cover of Paul
O'Dette's "Dolcissima et Amorosa") or the young lady playing the lute by
Bartolomeo Veneto (see the cover of the paperback edition of Diana Poulton's
Complete Works of John Dowland). To name but two.

The evidence is overwhelming that this left hand position was used
extensively by lute players in the sixteenth century. It's up to us what
we make of it - for anyone interested in 6 course lute technique that has
the right instrument, it's well worth experimenting with.

Best wishes,

Denys





- Original Message -
From: "Martin Eastwell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "lute list" ; "Howard Posner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 05, 2006 10:15 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> Vance-
> I wonder if you have seriously experimented with playing this this
> way? If you can stand big downloads, I will happily turn an old
> recording of me playing F Da Milano (Ness 33) with just such a
> technique, into an MP3, and send it to you (or anyone who is
> interested)! If you know the woodcut of a lutenist from Marcolini's
> Intabolatura di liuto (Venice 1536), then that will give a fair idea
> of the way I play a 6 course lute. Doug Alton Smith actually suggests
> that the player may be Francesco! The main difference is that,
> being tall, I cross my left leg over my right ,close to my left
> ankle, and this raises the lute to a position higher up my chest,
> like the player in the woodcut.
> Why do I bother? Well, I feel there is an inherent conflict between
> the standard LH technique taught to lutenists today(which is
> basically the same as modern classical guitar technique), and the low
> neck angle needed for historical thumb under RH technique. I don't
> for a minute think that everyone should follow my example, and I
> believe, as I said, that it is not suitable for later repertories or
> for lutes with more than 6 courses-the wider neck makes it
> impractical. I do find it helps in several important respects.
> 1.The very narrow necks of surviving 6 course lutes are usually
> widened by modern makers of replicas. Mine is not, and when playing

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Martin Eastwell]

Howard-

I'm not sure that the iconographic evidence can be dismissed so  
lightly. The lute was perhaps the principle solo instrument of this  
period, and both painters and patrons (and even many artists models!)  
would have known what good lute technique looked like. And some  
models were also patrons, who had paid good money to be taught by top  
lute players! It is a problem that the the written lute instructions  
of this period are vague about LH detail. But it is worth noting that  
from later periods, where fuller written details of playing technique  
survive, those details tally remarkably well with the iconographic  
evidence. A good example would be the way in which the RH directions  
given by Thomas Mace, are solidly backed up by the pictures, (and  
resolutely ignored by almost all modern players!).

Best wishes

martin



On 4 May 2006, at 22:03:22, Howard Posner wrote:

> The pictures show that painters' models held lutes that way.  I'm not
> sure what they tell us about actual players.


--

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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Martin Eastwell]

Vance-
I wonder if you have seriously experimented with playing this this  
way? If you can stand big downloads, I will happily turn an old  
recording of me playing F Da Milano (Ness 33) with just such a  
technique, into an MP3, and send it to you (or anyone who is  
interested)! If you know the woodcut of a lutenist from Marcolini's   
Intabolatura di liuto (Venice 1536), then that will give a fair idea  
of the way I play a 6 course lute. Doug Alton Smith actually suggests  
that the player may be Francesco! The main difference is that,  
being tall, I cross my left leg over my right ,close to my left  
ankle, and this raises the lute to a position higher up my chest,  
like the player in the woodcut.
Why do I bother? Well, I feel there is an inherent conflict between  
the standard LH technique taught to lutenists today(which is  
basically the same as modern classical guitar technique), and the low  
neck angle needed for historical thumb under RH technique. I don't  
for a minute think that everyone should follow my example, and I  
believe, as I said, that it is not suitable for later repertories or  
for lutes with more than 6 courses-the wider neck makes it  
impractical. I do find it helps in several important respects.
1.The very narrow necks of surviving 6 course lutes are usually  
widened by modern makers of replicas. Mine is not, and when playing  
with the neck "cradled", I find that the fact that the left hand lies  
against the neck, results in the left hand fingers falling on the  
strings either perpendicular to the fingerboard, or beyond  
perpedicular. This lifts the pad of my (quite broad) fingertips away  
from strings they might otherwise foul, while the fingernails act as  
a "fence" to prevent the pad of the finger spreading out on the other  
side.
2. I find that when shifting positions, I don't need to use guide  
fingers so much, as the light contact of the hand on the neck serves  
as a guide instead. A similar effect is apparent with rapid and  
complex chord changes-it is easy to move all the fingers at once,  
rather than stabilising my hand with finger contact.
3. I have a long upper body, and if I try to play with a low neck  
angle, standard modern LH technique makes my left shoulder drop,  
causing tension and back pain. This problem disappears  with the  
thumb wrapped round the neck.

I should make it clear that while I can happily play simple music  
standing up without a strap, I would alway sit down for more complex  
music. It is also worth mentioning that the thumb over the neck  
technique was highly developed by C19th guitar virtuosi such as  
Giuliani, who wrote many passages that are almost unplayable without  
fingering the 6th string with the thumb (often clearly indicated in   
the notation). Fernando Sor argued against this in his tutor-I'm sure  
there were similar arguments in the C16th!

Let me know if you'd like that MP3!

Best wishes

Martin



On 4 May 2006, at 22:21:46, Vance Wood wrote:

> I believe that left hand cradling does three things, two of them  
> bad.  One
> it obviously holds the neck of the Lute steady which is better than  
> having
> it flop around all over the place because you have not found a way  
> to secure
> it any other way.  Two: it is the worst possible habit to get into  
> that will
> affect your playing for years to come even if you find a way to  
> secure the
> instrument without cradling it. Try playing some F DaMilano's  
> Fantasies with
> this hand position.  It may not be impossible but playing them well  
> and
> executing the voicing cleanly is.  This technique makes you stumble  
> through
> passages where there are a lot of shifts up and down the neck, even  
> if it is
> only one fret.   Three:  It forces the left hand to multitask and  
> as such is
> a probable cause of a lot of physical problems down the road.


--

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[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Roman Turovsky]

> In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to
> reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the
> conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any
> good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with
> conductorless orchestras are generally flops.
>
> And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a
> whole different art.
Far from always. Often it is simply memorized. Especially in the hands of a 
white middle-class college-kid.
RT


>> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small-ensemble)
>> music is sightread, always?
>> And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?
>> RT
>>
>>
>>>I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
>>> mediocre as sightread music usually is.
>>>

 Hi all,

 I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!

 Arto

 On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:

> > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
> music
> > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you
> don't
> know
> > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
> (which
> > can read it much more accurately than you can).
> Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
> That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
> Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
> Svyatoslav
> Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
> wouldn't
> be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to
> play
> 5-6
> Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
> done
> in the old country.
> RT
> ==

>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>
>
> 

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Roman Turovsky]

>> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small-
>> ensemble)
>> music is sightread, always?
>
> Good point, but the job of an orchestral player is not to be an
> interpreter, but rather to be a part of a larger whole.  The
> conductor is the one who is allowed to interpret the music.
Not all ensembles have conductors, even though SOMEONE has make decisions.

>> And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?
>
> WrOOOng!   hey man, you can find mediocre music everywhere, in all
> genres (except the lute world of course).  C'mon, dude, blues ain't
> played from memory...
>
> David R
I do it from memory, and it is hardly mediocre. It is a lot worse.
RT (Rollin' and tumblin' at home with my first ever hay fever, 
SanPellegrino tastes like gasoline.) 




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[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[David Rastall]

On May 5, 2006, at 8:50 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small- 
> ensemble)
> music is sightread, always?

Good point, but the job of an orchestral player is not to be an  
interpreter, but rather to be a part of a larger whole.  The  
conductor is the one who is allowed to interpret the music.

> And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?

WrOOOng!   hey man, you can find mediocre music everywhere, in all  
genres (except the lute world of course).  C'mon, dude, blues ain't  
played from memory...

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com





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[LUTE] [Re: Lute straps]

[Doctor Oakroot]

Whoops, I meant to send this to the list. (This list software sucks).

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps
From:"Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:Fri, May 5, 2006 9:39 am
To:  "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc:  "Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 "Lute Net" 
--

In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to
reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the
conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any
good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with
conductorless orchestras are generally flops.

And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a
whole different art.

> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small-ensemble)
> music is sightread, always?
> And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?
> RT
>
>
>>I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
>> mediocre as sightread music usually is.
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!
>>>
>>> Arto
>>>
>>> On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
>>>> music
>>>> > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you
>>>> don't
>>>> know
>>>> > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
>>>> (which
>>>> > can read it much more accurately than you can).
>>>> Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
>>>> That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
>>>> Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
>>>> Svyatoslav
>>>> Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
>>>> wouldn't
>>>> be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to
>>>> play
>>>> 5-6
>>>> Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
>>>> done
>>>> in the old country.
>>>> RT
>>>> ==
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
>


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Doctor Oakroot]

In an orchestra the players are acting as a sequencer and their job is to
reproduce the written music accurately. The musical value comes from the
conductor - who usually has the score in front of him, but, if he's any
good, he doesn't actually need it. That's why experiments with
conductorless orchestras are generally flops.

And, no, blues isn't memorized - it's created during the performance... a
whole different art.

> HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small-ensemble)
> music is sightread, always?
> And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?
> RT
>
>
>>I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
>> mediocre as sightread music usually is.
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!
>>>
>>> Arto
>>>
>>> On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>>>
 > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
 music
 > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you
 don't
 know
 > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
 (which
 > can read it much more accurately than you can).
 Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
 That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
 Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
 Svyatoslav
 Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
 wouldn't
 be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to
 play
 5-6
 Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
 done
 in the old country.
 RT
 ==
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
>


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Roman Turovsky]

HAs it ever occurred to you that all orchestral (and most small-ensemble) 
music is sightread, always?
And all them mediocre blues are played from memory, ain't they?
RT


>I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
> mediocre as sightread music usually is.
>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!
>>
>> Arto
>>
>> On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>>
>>> > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
>>> music
>>> > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you don't
>>> know
>>> > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
>>> (which
>>> > can read it much more accurately than you can).
>>> Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
>>> That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
>>> Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
>>> Svyatoslav
>>> Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
>>> wouldn't
>>> be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to play
>>> 5-6
>>> Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
>>> done
>>> in the old country.
>>> RT
>>> ==
>>
>
>
> -- 
> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Doctor Oakroot]

I suspect his other 4-5 Haydn sonata (sightread) would have been just as
mediocre as sightread music usually is.

>
> Hi all,
>
> I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!
>
> Arto
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>
>> > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but
>> music
>> > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you don't
>> know
>> > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer
>> (which
>> > can read it much more accurately than you can).
>> Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
>> That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
>> Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing.
>> Svyatoslav
>> Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he
>> wouldn't
>> be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to play
>> 5-6
>> Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't
>> done
>> in the old country.
>> RT
>> ==
>


-- 
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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[David Rastall]

On May 4, 2006, at 5:03 PM, Howard Posner wrote:

> The pictures show that painters' models held lutes that way.  I'm not
> sure what they tell us about actual players.

Absolutely.  They were posing with the lute as a prop.  In order to  
be "doing something," some of them would be portrayed tuning the  
instrument, or appearing to sing.  I'm sure that very few, if any, of  
those paintings were intended as didactic visual aids to posture and  
"correct" luteplaying.

On the other hand, there are some features that many of the paintings  
have in common e.g. the height and angle of the lute in the 16th  
century paintings, and the right-hand position in the 17th-century  
ones.  Perhaps we can take those similarities as evidence of actual  
performance practice.  Who knows?

(Personally, I reckon they did just as we do today:  they did what  
worked for them and what produced the best music.  I've always  
believed that if you want to get the historical lute "experience,"  
pick up your historical lute and play it.)

David R

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com





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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Vance Wood]

I believe that left hand cradling does three things, two of them bad.  One
it obviously holds the neck of the Lute steady which is better than having
it flop around all over the place because you have not found a way to secure
it any other way.  Two: it is the worst possible habit to get into that will
affect your playing for years to come even if you find a way to secure the
instrument without cradling it. Try playing some F DaMilano's Fantasies with
this hand position.  It may not be impossible but playing them well and
executing the voicing cleanly is.  This technique makes you stumble through
passages where there are a lot of shifts up and down the neck, even if it is
only one fret.   Three:  It forces the left hand to multitask and as such is
a probable cause of a lot of physical problems down the road.

Vance Wood.


- Original Message - 
From: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" 
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 5:03 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> Martin Eastwell wrote:
>
> > The pictures show that left hand
> > technique in the 16th century was often very like that used by modern
> > folk and rock guitarists, with the neck cradled between the base of
> > the 1st finger and the thumb, and so supporting the neck without any
> > need for a strap.
>
> The pictures show that painters' models held lutes that way.  I'm not
> sure what they tell us about actual players.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Howard Posner]

Martin Eastwell wrote:

> The pictures show that left hand
> technique in the 16th century was often very like that used by modern
> folk and rock guitarists, with the neck cradled between the base of
> the 1st finger and the thumb, and so supporting the neck without any
> need for a strap.

The pictures show that painters' models held lutes that way.  I'm not 
sure what they tell us about actual players.



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[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Arto Wikla]

Hi all,

I strongly agree with Roman of his comment below!

Arto

On Thu, 4 May 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote:

> > Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but music
> > isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you don't know
> > the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer (which
> > can read it much more accurately than you can).
> Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
> That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
> Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing. Svyatoslav 
> Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he wouldn't 
> be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to play 5-6 
> Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't done 
> in the old country.
> RT
> ==



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Martin Eastwell]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Re: [LUTE] Re: lute straps
Date:   4 May 2006 06:18:55 BDT
To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dear Katherine

It is quite easy to play a typical six course lute standing up  
without any sort of strap, but one needs to rethink the technique  
used to play such instruments. The pictures show that left hand  
technique in the 16th century was often very like that used by modern  
folk and rock guitarists, with the neck cradled between the base of  
the 1st finger and the thumb, and so supporting the neck without any  
need for a strap. The typical deep parabola shape of the neck on this  
type of instrument makes this quite comfortable. At the other end of  
the instrument, C 16th (and earlier) pictures often show that the  
right arm is actually in line with the centre line of the soundboard.  
So the pressure of the right arm holds the instrument steady, without  
any tendency to roll about. I used to do a solo lute programme in  
which I played the first item (Arthur's Dump) while walking from the  
back of the hall. The piece has several shifts from 1st to 5th  
position and back, which did not cause major problems. Of course,  
this does not work well for later repertory and styles of playing,  
especially pieces with lots of barre chords.

On the subject of gut strings  and the buttons to accommodate them,   
I have an old guitar made in the mid/late 18th cenury by Marchal in  
Paris. There seems little doubt that it was originally a 5 course  
double strung instrument, though it has been crudely altered to 6  
single strings. It has two small, rather flat, ivory buttons, one at  
each end of the back. The shape of the buttons means that they could  
only take a thin piece of string, up to about .70 mm. No sign of the  
piece of original gut, though!

Martin



On 2 May 2006, at 16:08:54, Katherine Davies wrote:


> There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
> playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
> strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
> it could be done?
>
> I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
> puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
> place when I'm sitting down.
>
> thanks,
> Katherine Davies
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Sandy Hackney]

I have observed Hoppy Smith's changing manner for holding the lute over many 
years and was unable to really use them until the most recent one:

He has an end button and has a short slip-knot cord on that which connects 
to a single long (6-7 feet) broad ribbon.  On end of the ribbon is tied 
around the pegbox (I use it at the very end). It is then tied to the slip 
chord where it meets the end button around the back of the instrument .  The 
ribbon goes around your back in normal "guitar-style" and then continues on 
under your rear.  He rests (as do I) the instrument on his right thigh, 
using a small chamois-type cloth (silver chest liner from Wallmart) and uses 
a low foot stool.  The ribbon can be pulled tight under you as you see fit 
and the slip knot can also be adjusted easily by loosening.  Your are able 
to sit up quite straight and the instrument is held firmly in place without 
your hands.
I have had great success with my vihuela, am still working on the 7c, and 
have not tried it on a bigger instrument yet as I need to have the end 
button installed.

The vihuela feels perfect to me this way and very comfortable.

Sandy
- Original Message - 
From: "Stephen Arndt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 9:08 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> Dear Lute List,
>
> A long-time reader though infrequent contributor to this list, I was on 
> the
> verge of posting a related topic when Katherine initiated the thread on 
> lute
> straps, a thread that I have followed with great interest.
>
> Primarily from using a computer keyboard and mouse, I had developed under 
> my
> right shoulder blade a "knot" that felt like a knife stabbing me in the
> back. The problem seemed to be exacerbated by reaching around the lute,
> which is a rather deep-bodied instrument. From my shoulder the pain seemed
> to radiate all the way down my arm, inflaming the ulnar nerve and my 
> wrist,
> and numbing the ring and little finger of my right hand.
>
> I made several adjustments to my computer equipment (raising the monitor,
> switching the mouse to my left hand, etc.) and underwent chiropractic
> treatment, acupuncture, massage, and medication therapy (muscle relaxers 
> and
> pain pills). Yet, the problem was still so bad that I worried that I would
> have to give up the lute.
>
> Originally, I held the lute more or less in the classical guitar style,
> i.e., on my left thigh and using a footstool. Once my physical problems
> developed, I tried using a strap in the "traditional" manner, i.e., tying 
> it
> to the first peg, wrapping it around my shoulder, and tucking it in under 
> my
> right thigh, on which I now rested the body of the lute. Doing so helped 
> but
> did not really solve the problem. In desperation I drove to the nearest
> "luthier" (a maker of violins, violas, and cellos, but not of lutes), who
> was two and a half hours away, and had him put two strap buttons on my
> instrument, since I was afraid of doing so myself and cracking my
> instrument. I have since used both a regular, guitar-style strap, attached
> to the first peg and the clasp button, and the "slider-strap" recently
> mentioned on this list and attached to the clasp button and another button
> just below the neck. Doing so seems to have improved my tone since I am 
> able
> to hold the lute higher, so that my forearm is more closely parallel to 
> the
> strings, and has also alleviated the pain somewhat. At this point, 
> however,
> I am merely managing the pain but have not been relieved of it.
>
> I would like to ask whether any other members of the lute list have
> experienced similar physical problems and, if so, how they solved them. I
> would be very appreciative of any help anyone could give me.
>
> Thank you in advance,
>
> Stephen Arndt
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Katherine Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:08 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps
>
>
>> There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
>> playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
>> strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
>> it could be done?
>>
>> I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
>> puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
>> place when I'm sitting down.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Katherine Davies
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> 

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Roman Turovsky]

> Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but music
> isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you don't know
> the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer (which
> can read it much more accurately than you can).
Lute music is not exactly "green onions", you know.
That's why even our virtuosi like to read as they play.
Not everyone thinks that memorization is such a wonderful thing. Svyatoslav 
Richter once said that if he weren't forced to play from memory he wouldn't 
be stuck with his limited [sic!] repertoire. He would have liked to play 5-6 
Haydn sonatas in concert, rather than 1, but sightreading just wasn't done 
in the old country.
RT
==
http://polyhymnion.org

Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.


>> Dear Stewart and list,
>>
>> The quote from the Burwell lute Book brings up another topic here:
>> performing lute music in concert by memory.  I've read the argument
>> that tablature is difficult to memorize...who knows?
>>
>> Do you prefer to have the tablature always in front of you?
>> Personally, I'm leaning more and more in the direction of performing
>> by memory.
>>
>> David Rastall
>>
>>
>> On May 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Manolo and Katherine,
>>>
>>> Mouton's coat certainly gives him the choice of several buttons to
>>> hook his lute on.
>>>
>>> One important factor not mentioned so far in this discusison, is how
>>> people sat to play the lute. When this was discussed on the Italian
>>> Lute Net in January 2004, I made the point that lutenists were
>>> expected to sit up straight, and not crouch over the lute, hugging
>>> it as so many of us do, with footstools to boot. There is less need
>>> for straps and gut tied between two buttons, if you sit hunched over
>>> the instrument. If you sit up straight, there is less of you to hold
>>> the instrument, less purchase (in the grabbing sense), and more
>>> reason to have extra paraphernalia to stop the lute slipping away. I
>>> quoted a passage from folio 16r of the Burwell Lute Book, which runs
>>> as follows:
>>>
>>> "Those that are short sighted or have a short memory are bound to
>>> have allwayes there [=their] nose on there booke and soe they may
>>> fall into that inconveniency Therefore wee must be diligent to take
>>> them out by the booke and practise them soe well as we may play them
>>> by heart and learne the time and humour of the Lesson by the Eare
>>> that one might looke chearfully uppon the Company and not stoope The
>>> grace and chearfullnes in playing not being lesse pleaseing then
>>> [=than] the playing it selfe One must then sitt upright in playing
>>> to showe noe Constrainte or paines, to have a smileing Countenance
>>> that the Company may not thinke that you play unwillingly and showe
>>> that you animate the Lute aswell as the Lute does animate you yet
>>> you must not stirre your body nor your head nor showe any extreame
>>> satisfaction in your playing You must make noe mouthes nor bite your
>>> lipps nor cast your hands in a flourishing manner that relishes of a
>>> fidler in one word you must not lesse please the Eyes then the
>>> Eares"
>>>
>>> It's a pity (but understandable) that we can't send attachments to
>>> the list, otherwise everyone could see Kenneth's picture of a
>>> 17th-century lutenist. The young man is sitting up quite straight.
>>> His eyes are not on his instrument, and there is no music in sight.
>>> One imagines he would perform like a singer, looking around the room
>>> as he played, not with his head buried behind a book of music, or
>>> constantly staring at the movement of his left-hand fingers.
>>>
>>> I am sure Mary Burwell was right. What we see at a concert is an
>>> important part of the performance. As performers we think of the
>>> clothes we should wear, and how we should present ourselves. We may
>>> shake with nerves and regret a host of wrong notes, but we still
>>> look cheerful, smile, and politely acknowledge applause. When people
>>> describe a concert to someone afterwards, they usually describe what
>>> they saw, rather than what they heard: "He wore a pink bow-tie, and
>>> kept scowling at the audience," rather than, "He played out of time
>>> with a splat every bar."
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think there's more to those bits of gut tied behind the
>>> lute, than meets the eye.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Stewart.
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> www.rastallmusic.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
> -- 
> http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.
>
>
>
> 




___
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[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Doctor Oakroot]

Hmmm.. Tab may be hard to memorize (don't know - never tried), but music
isn't, lol. IMO, if you need to read to play in performance you don't know
the music and you might as well just program it into a sequencer (which
can read it much more accurately than you can).

> Dear Stewart and list,
>
> The quote from the Burwell lute Book brings up another topic here:
> performing lute music in concert by memory.  I've read the argument
> that tablature is difficult to memorize...who knows?
>
> Do you prefer to have the tablature always in front of you?
> Personally, I'm leaning more and more in the direction of performing
> by memory.
>
> David Rastall
>
>
> On May 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
>
>> Dear Manolo and Katherine,
>>
>> Mouton's coat certainly gives him the choice of several buttons to
>> hook his lute on.
>>
>> One important factor not mentioned so far in this discusison, is how
>> people sat to play the lute. When this was discussed on the Italian
>> Lute Net in January 2004, I made the point that lutenists were
>> expected to sit up straight, and not crouch over the lute, hugging
>> it as so many of us do, with footstools to boot. There is less need
>> for straps and gut tied between two buttons, if you sit hunched over
>> the instrument. If you sit up straight, there is less of you to hold
>> the instrument, less purchase (in the grabbing sense), and more
>> reason to have extra paraphernalia to stop the lute slipping away. I
>> quoted a passage from folio 16r of the Burwell Lute Book, which runs
>> as follows:
>>
>> "Those that are short sighted or have a short memory are bound to
>> have allwayes there [=their] nose on there booke and soe they may
>> fall into that inconveniency Therefore wee must be diligent to take
>> them out by the booke and practise them soe well as we may play them
>> by heart and learne the time and humour of the Lesson by the Eare
>> that one might looke chearfully uppon the Company and not stoope The
>> grace and chearfullnes in playing not being lesse pleaseing then
>> [=than] the playing it selfe One must then sitt upright in playing
>> to showe noe Constrainte or paines, to have a smileing Countenance
>> that the Company may not thinke that you play unwillingly and showe
>> that you animate the Lute aswell as the Lute does animate you yet
>> you must not stirre your body nor your head nor showe any extreame
>> satisfaction in your playing You must make noe mouthes nor bite your
>> lipps nor cast your hands in a flourishing manner that relishes of a
>> fidler in one word you must not lesse please the Eyes then the
>> Eares"
>>
>> It's a pity (but understandable) that we can't send attachments to
>> the list, otherwise everyone could see Kenneth's picture of a
>> 17th-century lutenist. The young man is sitting up quite straight.
>> His eyes are not on his instrument, and there is no music in sight.
>> One imagines he would perform like a singer, looking around the room
>> as he played, not with his head buried behind a book of music, or
>> constantly staring at the movement of his left-hand fingers.
>>
>> I am sure Mary Burwell was right. What we see at a concert is an
>> important part of the performance. As performers we think of the
>> clothes we should wear, and how we should present ourselves. We may
>> shake with nerves and regret a host of wrong notes, but we still
>> look cheerful, smile, and politely acknowledge applause. When people
>> describe a concert to someone afterwards, they usually describe what
>> they saw, rather than what they heard: "He wore a pink bow-tie, and
>> kept scowling at the audience," rather than, "He played out of time
>> with a splat every bar."
>>
>> Anyway, I think there's more to those bits of gut tied behind the
>> lute, than meets the eye.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Stewart.
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.rastallmusic.com
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps - EUREKA?

[Martyn Hodgson]

Dear Kenneth,
   
  Many thanks for this - it looks very convincing.   Especially interesting is 
that it appears to be TWO ribbons each attached to DIFFERENT buttons on the 
player's tunic  - this ought to provide more stabilty than the single 
ribbon/gut thoery.  Just goes to show how important it is to refer back to 
historic evidence.
   
  Any more information on the picture? - provenance etc?
   
  Many thanks again
   
  Martyn

Kenneth Bé <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hello Stewart, Katherine, Luca, and Martin:

   
  I'm writing to the four of you individually from my private email address 
because there is a remarkable print I want to share by Wenceslaus Hollar, the 
early 17th C. German who worked in London, showing a lute player from the side 
angle where you can clearly see the strap attached to the body of the lute and 
looping around the button (actually it is attached to TWO buttons) on his 
jacket.  I have scanned and attached it here (I don't know how to post images 
on the web, otherwise I'd share it with all on the lutelist). 
   
  A Young Man Playing a Lute
  Etching (P.1698a)
  185 x 130mm
  private collection
   
  Illustrated inL
  Wenceslaus Hollar: A Bohemian Artist in England
  by Richard T. Godfrey
  Yale Univ Press 1994

  -- Forwarded message --
From: "Stewart McCoy" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" 
Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 17:43:02 +0100
Subject: [LUTE] Lute straps
Dear Craig and Katherine, 

An alternative to using a strap, which was used in the 17th Century,
is to tie a gut string between two pegs on the body of the
instrument. One peg is where you'd expect to see a peg, i.e. in the
middle of the end clasp; the other peg is fixed through the middle 
rib just before the body joins the neck. The string is tied so that
it lies flush with the middle rib, and you hook it over a button on
your coat to stabilise the lute. It is thought that Mouton may be
holding his lute this way in that famous picture of him. If you 
think the artist hasn't quite got it right, and the lute looks as if
it is suspended in front of the player as if by magic, it is
possible that it is being held in this way. There is an article by
Robert Spencer in _Early Music_, with a picture of the back of a 
lute, showing the gut string tied between two pegs. I could look up
the reference if you want.

If you play the lute standing up, and without a strap or a piece of
string between two pegs, you have to use your left hand to support 
the instrument. This can be satisfactory for short periods, but can
cause irritation to the part of the hand holding the neck,
unaccustomed to the friction involved. Barré chords are problematic,
so you may have to tinker with the music a bit, e.g. change

 |\   |
 |\   |
 |\   |
___a_
_f__e|_a__||_
___d_|_c__||_
_e___|_c__||_
__c__|_c__||_
_|_a__||_ 

to

 |\   |
 |\   |
 |\   |
_a_a_
_a__e|_a__||_
_a_d_|_c__||_
_|||_
__c__|||_
_|_a__||_ 

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Craig Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 4:18 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> Katherine Davies wrote:
> >
> >There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
> >playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
> >strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if - 
> >it could be done?
> >
> >I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
> >puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
> >place when I'm sitting down.
>
> A good friend of mine has been doing studies into the Medieval
harp and all the iconography she's seen shows what she calls the
magically levitating harp. No sign of a strap or other gadget to
rest it on the knees (one harper I know has a crossbar on a wooden 
knob that fits into the sound hole in the back of the harp and the
crossbar rests on his knees). She's been trying to figure out
whether there is some sort of mechanism in place that the painted
didn't see or if the painters simply didn't understand how the 
instrument is played took artiztic license. I"ve tried playing the
lute standing up without a strap and it's very difficult for me. So
I prefer to sit with a piece of suede across my knee to keep the
lute from slipping. 
>
> Regards,
> Craig
>
>
>
> ___
> $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer
> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. 
> Signup at www.doteasy.com
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>










-
Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo.
--

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[David Rastall]

On May 3, 2006, at 9:08 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote:

> Dear Lute List,
>
> ...I would like to ask whether any other members of the lute list have
> experienced similar physical problems and, if so, how they solved  
> them. I
> would be very appreciative of any help anyone could give me.

Okay, since nine years of age (1956) I was found to have a severe  
scoliosis.  When I first took up the lute in 1980 I was suffering  
from chronic back pain.  To cut a long story very short, if I was  
going to continue playing lute and guitar, I had to find a way to  
play with both feet flat on the ground, and not with one foot propped  
up on a footstool.  I now play the lute using a strap to support the  
left-hand end of the lute and the instrument resting on my right  
thigh;  and I play guitar with one of those cushion things to elevate  
(levitate?  ho! ho!) the guitar so that it is not just sitting on my  
left thigh.  The important thing for me was to learn to play sitting  
up straight with both feet flat on the ground.  Also, I embarked on a  
search for the root cause of my back trouble.  No further comment on  
that.  I'm still looking!

I don't know if it helps in any way, but you're certainly not alone  
in battling these kinds of problems.

David Rastall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Edward Martin]

This is a very important discussion.  First and foremost, thank you, 
Stewart, from Burwell's quote.

One's posture and demeanor are an important part of the performance, no 
doubt.  In terms of memorization, when I do it, I do it "from ear", rather 
than "by eye".  In other words, I can imagine the voices and melodies, and 
sounds, not the tablature.  The ability to play a piece from memory is 
achieved through understanding the music through repetition, and 
"remembering" the music, not the notes.

Playing from memory is it not the reason that a performance is referred 
to as a recital?

ed





At 08:18 PM 5/3/2006 -0400, David Rastall wrote:
>Dear Stewart and list,
>
>The quote from the Burwell lute Book brings up another topic here:
>performing lute music in concert by memory.  I've read the argument
>that tablature is difficult to memorize...who knows?
>
>Do you prefer to have the tablature always in front of you?
>Personally, I'm leaning more and more in the direction of performing
>by memory.
>
>David Rastall
>
>
>On May 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
>
> > Dear Manolo and Katherine,
> >
> > Mouton's coat certainly gives him the choice of several buttons to
> > hook his lute on.
> >
> > One important factor not mentioned so far in this discusison, is how
> > people sat to play the lute. When this was discussed on the Italian
> > Lute Net in January 2004, I made the point that lutenists were
> > expected to sit up straight, and not crouch over the lute, hugging
> > it as so many of us do, with footstools to boot. There is less need
> > for straps and gut tied between two buttons, if you sit hunched over
> > the instrument. If you sit up straight, there is less of you to hold
> > the instrument, less purchase (in the grabbing sense), and more
> > reason to have extra paraphernalia to stop the lute slipping away. I
> > quoted a passage from folio 16r of the Burwell Lute Book, which runs
> > as follows:
> >
> > "Those that are short sighted or have a short memory are bound to
> > have allwayes there [=their] nose on there booke and soe they may
> > fall into that inconveniency Therefore wee must be diligent to take
> > them out by the booke and practise them soe well as we may play them
> > by heart and learne the time and humour of the Lesson by the Eare
> > that one might looke chearfully uppon the Company and not stoope The
> > grace and chearfullnes in playing not being lesse pleaseing then
> > [=than] the playing it selfe One must then sitt upright in playing
> > to showe noe Constrainte or paines, to have a smileing Countenance
> > that the Company may not thinke that you play unwillingly and showe
> > that you animate the Lute aswell as the Lute does animate you yet
> > you must not stirre your body nor your head nor showe any extreame
> > satisfaction in your playing You must make noe mouthes nor bite your
> > lipps nor cast your hands in a flourishing manner that relishes of a
> > fidler in one word you must not lesse please the Eyes then the
> > Eares"
> >
> > It's a pity (but understandable) that we can't send attachments to
> > the list, otherwise everyone could see Kenneth's picture of a
> > 17th-century lutenist. The young man is sitting up quite straight.
> > His eyes are not on his instrument, and there is no music in sight.
> > One imagines he would perform like a singer, looking around the room
> > as he played, not with his head buried behind a book of music, or
> > constantly staring at the movement of his left-hand fingers.
> >
> > I am sure Mary Burwell was right. What we see at a concert is an
> > important part of the performance. As performers we think of the
> > clothes we should wear, and how we should present ourselves. We may
> > shake with nerves and regret a host of wrong notes, but we still
> > look cheerful, smile, and politely acknowledge applause. When people
> > describe a concert to someone afterwards, they usually describe what
> > they saw, rather than what they heard: "He wore a pink bow-tie, and
> > kept scowling at the audience," rather than, "He played out of time
> > with a splat every bar."
> >
> > Anyway, I think there's more to those bits of gut tied behind the
> > lute, than meets the eye.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Stewart.
>
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>www.rastallmusic.com
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Stephen Arndt]

Dear Lute List,

A long-time reader though infrequent contributor to this list, I was on the 
verge of posting a related topic when Katherine initiated the thread on lute 
straps, a thread that I have followed with great interest.

Primarily from using a computer keyboard and mouse, I had developed under my 
right shoulder blade a "knot" that felt like a knife stabbing me in the 
back. The problem seemed to be exacerbated by reaching around the lute, 
which is a rather deep-bodied instrument. From my shoulder the pain seemed 
to radiate all the way down my arm, inflaming the ulnar nerve and my wrist, 
and numbing the ring and little finger of my right hand.

I made several adjustments to my computer equipment (raising the monitor, 
switching the mouse to my left hand, etc.) and underwent chiropractic 
treatment, acupuncture, massage, and medication therapy (muscle relaxers and 
pain pills). Yet, the problem was still so bad that I worried that I would 
have to give up the lute.

Originally, I held the lute more or less in the classical guitar style, 
i.e., on my left thigh and using a footstool. Once my physical problems 
developed, I tried using a strap in the "traditional" manner, i.e., tying it 
to the first peg, wrapping it around my shoulder, and tucking it in under my 
right thigh, on which I now rested the body of the lute. Doing so helped but 
did not really solve the problem. In desperation I drove to the nearest 
"luthier" (a maker of violins, violas, and cellos, but not of lutes), who 
was two and a half hours away, and had him put two strap buttons on my 
instrument, since I was afraid of doing so myself and cracking my 
instrument. I have since used both a regular, guitar-style strap, attached 
to the first peg and the clasp button, and the "slider-strap" recently 
mentioned on this list and attached to the clasp button and another button 
just below the neck. Doing so seems to have improved my tone since I am able 
to hold the lute higher, so that my forearm is more closely parallel to the 
strings, and has also alleviated the pain somewhat. At this point, however, 
I am merely managing the pain but have not been relieved of it.

I would like to ask whether any other members of the lute list have 
experienced similar physical problems and, if so, how they solved them. I 
would be very appreciative of any help anyone could give me.

Thank you in advance,

Stephen Arndt




- Original Message - 
From: "Katherine Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
> playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
> strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
> it could be done?
>
> I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
> puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
> place when I'm sitting down.
>
> thanks,
> Katherine Davies
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Vance Wood]

That's a funny thing about the way different people's minds work.  When I
memorize music I don't memorize the tablature I memorize the music.  I could
no more remember a line of tab than fly, though I guess if I could visualize
the tab. memorization would be a lot easier.
- Original Message - 
From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" 
Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps


> Dear Stewart and list,
>
> The quote from the Burwell lute Book brings up another topic here:
> performing lute music in concert by memory.  I've read the argument
> that tablature is difficult to memorize...who knows?
>
> Do you prefer to have the tablature always in front of you?
> Personally, I'm leaning more and more in the direction of performing
> by memory.
>
> David Rastall
>
>
> On May 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:
>
> > Dear Manolo and Katherine,
> >
> > Mouton's coat certainly gives him the choice of several buttons to
> > hook his lute on.
> >
> > One important factor not mentioned so far in this discusison, is how
> > people sat to play the lute. When this was discussed on the Italian
> > Lute Net in January 2004, I made the point that lutenists were
> > expected to sit up straight, and not crouch over the lute, hugging
> > it as so many of us do, with footstools to boot. There is less need
> > for straps and gut tied between two buttons, if you sit hunched over
> > the instrument. If you sit up straight, there is less of you to hold
> > the instrument, less purchase (in the grabbing sense), and more
> > reason to have extra paraphernalia to stop the lute slipping away. I
> > quoted a passage from folio 16r of the Burwell Lute Book, which runs
> > as follows:
> >
> > "Those that are short sighted or have a short memory are bound to
> > have allwayes there [=their] nose on there booke and soe they may
> > fall into that inconveniency Therefore wee must be diligent to take
> > them out by the booke and practise them soe well as we may play them
> > by heart and learne the time and humour of the Lesson by the Eare
> > that one might looke chearfully uppon the Company and not stoope The
> > grace and chearfullnes in playing not being lesse pleaseing then
> > [=than] the playing it selfe One must then sitt upright in playing
> > to showe noe Constrainte or paines, to have a smileing Countenance
> > that the Company may not thinke that you play unwillingly and showe
> > that you animate the Lute aswell as the Lute does animate you yet
> > you must not stirre your body nor your head nor showe any extreame
> > satisfaction in your playing You must make noe mouthes nor bite your
> > lipps nor cast your hands in a flourishing manner that relishes of a
> > fidler in one word you must not lesse please the Eyes then the
> > Eares"
> >
> > It's a pity (but understandable) that we can't send attachments to
> > the list, otherwise everyone could see Kenneth's picture of a
> > 17th-century lutenist. The young man is sitting up quite straight.
> > His eyes are not on his instrument, and there is no music in sight.
> > One imagines he would perform like a singer, looking around the room
> > as he played, not with his head buried behind a book of music, or
> > constantly staring at the movement of his left-hand fingers.
> >
> > I am sure Mary Burwell was right. What we see at a concert is an
> > important part of the performance. As performers we think of the
> > clothes we should wear, and how we should present ourselves. We may
> > shake with nerves and regret a host of wrong notes, but we still
> > look cheerful, smile, and politely acknowledge applause. When people
> > describe a concert to someone afterwards, they usually describe what
> > they saw, rather than what they heard: "He wore a pink bow-tie, and
> > kept scowling at the audience," rather than, "He played out of time
> > with a splat every bar."
> >
> > Anyway, I think there's more to those bits of gut tied behind the
> > lute, than meets the eye.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Stewart.
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.rastallmusic.com
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[David Rastall]

Dear Stewart and list,

The quote from the Burwell lute Book brings up another topic here:   
performing lute music in concert by memory.  I've read the argument  
that tablature is difficult to memorize...who knows?

Do you prefer to have the tablature always in front of you?   
Personally, I'm leaning more and more in the direction of performing  
by memory.

David Rastall


On May 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:

> Dear Manolo and Katherine,
>
> Mouton's coat certainly gives him the choice of several buttons to
> hook his lute on.
>
> One important factor not mentioned so far in this discusison, is how
> people sat to play the lute. When this was discussed on the Italian
> Lute Net in January 2004, I made the point that lutenists were
> expected to sit up straight, and not crouch over the lute, hugging
> it as so many of us do, with footstools to boot. There is less need
> for straps and gut tied between two buttons, if you sit hunched over
> the instrument. If you sit up straight, there is less of you to hold
> the instrument, less purchase (in the grabbing sense), and more
> reason to have extra paraphernalia to stop the lute slipping away. I
> quoted a passage from folio 16r of the Burwell Lute Book, which runs
> as follows:
>
> "Those that are short sighted or have a short memory are bound to
> have allwayes there [=their] nose on there booke and soe they may
> fall into that inconveniency Therefore wee must be diligent to take
> them out by the booke and practise them soe well as we may play them
> by heart and learne the time and humour of the Lesson by the Eare
> that one might looke chearfully uppon the Company and not stoope The
> grace and chearfullnes in playing not being lesse pleaseing then
> [=than] the playing it selfe One must then sitt upright in playing
> to showe noe Constrainte or paines, to have a smileing Countenance
> that the Company may not thinke that you play unwillingly and showe
> that you animate the Lute aswell as the Lute does animate you yet
> you must not stirre your body nor your head nor showe any extreame
> satisfaction in your playing You must make noe mouthes nor bite your
> lipps nor cast your hands in a flourishing manner that relishes of a
> fidler in one word you must not lesse please the Eyes then the
> Eares"
>
> It's a pity (but understandable) that we can't send attachments to
> the list, otherwise everyone could see Kenneth's picture of a
> 17th-century lutenist. The young man is sitting up quite straight.
> His eyes are not on his instrument, and there is no music in sight.
> One imagines he would perform like a singer, looking around the room
> as he played, not with his head buried behind a book of music, or
> constantly staring at the movement of his left-hand fingers.
>
> I am sure Mary Burwell was right. What we see at a concert is an
> important part of the performance. As performers we think of the
> clothes we should wear, and how we should present ourselves. We may
> shake with nerves and regret a host of wrong notes, but we still
> look cheerful, smile, and politely acknowledge applause. When people
> describe a concert to someone afterwards, they usually describe what
> they saw, rather than what they heard: "He wore a pink bow-tie, and
> kept scowling at the audience," rather than, "He played out of time
> with a splat every bar."
>
> Anyway, I think there's more to those bits of gut tied behind the
> lute, than meets the eye.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com





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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Juan Fco. Prieto]

I agree, Nick. I only suggested that there is some people playing in this
way, but obviously the strap is a piece of comfort not negligible and, for
the lute, essential. After read all the postings I'm completely convinced.
What about a thin tape of leather surrounding the top contour -glued- to
avoid the lute sliding when played sitting? I saw this "feature" in some
lutes. Do you know something about that?
Thanks all the people,

Juan Fco.


2006/5/3, Nick Gravestock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> Playing the guitar like this is not so difficult if just strumming as the
> waist of the guitar sits nicely on the right hip bone. I have used it
> myself
> this way. However, the shape of the lute does not commend itself to this
> method!
> Nick
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 02 May 2006 18:03
> To: Katherine Davies; lutelist
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps
>
> Believe or not, Katherine, even today there is some Spanish flamenco
> guitarists that play guitar standing up without any strap (rather for
> playing while singing). I used renaissance lute in this way, but I must to
> recognise that the strap is more confortable... but not indispensable. I
> have strap button since one month only. The instrument is sustained with a
> mix of left hand palm, right forearm, belly [ more efficiently on fat
> people, stop your diet immediately :-)) ] or chest and, in case of lute,
> pinkie right finger. You can see to play guitar like this, for example,
> the
> famous Spanish guitar and voice duo "Los del R=EDo", authors of the famous
> "Macarena" song. Well, that seems a little off-topic. Excuse me.
> Greetings,
>
> Juan Fco.
>
>
> 2006/5/2, Katherine Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> > There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
> > playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
> > strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
> > it could be done?
> >
> > I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
> > puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
> > place when I'm sitting down.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Katherine Davies
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Juan Fco.
>
> --
>
>
>


--
Juan Fco.

--

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Nick Gravestock]

Playing the guitar like this is not so difficult if just strumming as the
waist of the guitar sits nicely on the right hip bone. I have used it myself
this way. However, the shape of the lute does not commend itself to this
method!
Nick

-Original Message-
From: Juan Fco. Prieto [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 02 May 2006 18:03
To: Katherine Davies; lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps

Believe or not, Katherine, even today there is some Spanish flamenco
guitarists that play guitar standing up without any strap (rather for
playing while singing). I used renaissance lute in this way, but I must to
recognise that the strap is more confortable... but not indispensable. I
have strap button since one month only. The instrument is sustained with a
mix of left hand palm, right forearm, belly [ more efficiently on fat
people, stop your diet immediately :-)) ] or chest and, in case of lute,
pinkie right finger. You can see to play guitar like this, for example, the
famous Spanish guitar and voice duo "Los del R=EDo", authors of the famous
"Macarena" song. Well, that seems a little off-topic. Excuse me.
Greetings,

Juan Fco.


2006/5/2, Katherine Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
> playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
> strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
> it could be done?
>
> I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
> puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
> place when I'm sitting down.
>
> thanks,
> Katherine Davies
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>



--
Juan Fco.

--

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[chriswilke]

Question: Wouldn't hanging your lute from a button
scratch the heck out of the back of your instrument?  
Even if it doesn't move around alot, I would think the
finish at the contact point would get very worn.


Chris  

--- Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My roommate in Basel had one his ren lute. I didn't
> like it much  
> because the lute flops around that one point. I
> think he used  
> something lie a saxophone neck strap since we
> normally didn't wear  
> leather doublets with buttons. There is a painting
> somewhere that  
> shows this on the back of a lute.
> I much prefer having the lute suspended between two
> points. You just  
> need to tie a loop in the middle of the string. The
> size isn't all  
> that important as gravity will help. Then you have
> to get the string  
> VERY taught between the two strap pegs so that the
> string doesn't  
> stray to far from the middle rib.
> 
> On May 3, 2006, at 12:58 AM, Sean Smith wrote:
> 
> >   Concerning straps, there was often a taught
> string that went from  
> > the end button to another button close to the neck
> joint on the  
> > bowl. This could be attached to a clasp on one's
> shirt. Of course  
> > it would be invisible in most iconography. (my old
> Vandervogel lute  
> > has one, too)
> >
> >   Has anyone tried this? Was it successful?
> 
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Ed Durbrow]

My roommate in Basel had one his ren lute. I didn't like it much  
because the lute flops around that one point. I think he used  
something lie a saxophone neck strap since we normally didn't wear  
leather doublets with buttons. There is a painting somewhere that  
shows this on the back of a lute.
I much prefer having the lute suspended between two points. You just  
need to tie a loop in the middle of the string. The size isn't all  
that important as gravity will help. Then you have to get the string  
VERY taught between the two strap pegs so that the string doesn't  
stray to far from the middle rib.

On May 3, 2006, at 12:58 AM, Sean Smith wrote:

>   Concerning straps, there was often a taught string that went from  
> the end button to another button close to the neck joint on the  
> bowl. This could be attached to a clasp on one's shirt. Of course  
> it would be invisible in most iconography. (my old Vandervogel lute  
> has one, too)
>
>   Has anyone tried this? Was it successful?

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Rob Dorsey]

 Sorry but I gotta weigh in with an anecdote. In the late sixties I was a
music major at the University of Texas and was desperately trying to play
cello in the school orchestra. Bloody awful but I was game. Anyway, a friend
(a rather good oboe player who often gigged with the Dallas Symphony)
introduced me to a cellist who had a Strad cello, the real thing. It was in
pretty good shape for a 400 year old working instrument and the conversion
to classical pitch, done in the 18th century, was most competent. The guy
was so generous he let me play it, as best I could. On examining the
instrument I was struck by an odd repair on the back. There, nicely grain
matched to look just like the flamed maple of the back, was a repair of a
"knot hole" of an odd shape. It was about 2" round at the bottom and perhaps
1" wide at the top, sort of an inverted pear shape. On inquiry I was told
that it was used for marching. The player wore a leather belt with a brass
knob on the front which was inserted into the larger portion of the "pear"
shaped hole and then lodged in the upper, smaller portion of the hole. The
player could then march along playing his cello. Sometime in the 19th
century it was deemed redundant and a repair effected. So, Strad presumably
made "marching celli". How's that for a strap?

Best,
Rob Dorsey, luthier
Florence, KY USA

-Original Message-
From: Katherine Davies [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:10 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute straps

I think this is the article:

Robert Spencer 'How to Hold a Lute: Historical Evidence from Paintings',
Early Music, Vol. 3, No. 4.
(Oct., 1975), pp. 352-354. 


Thanks to everyone who has replied with such useful information!

Katherine Davies




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Katherine Davies]

I think this is the article:

Robert Spencer 'How to Hold a Lute: Historical
Evidence from Paintings', Early Music, Vol. 3, No. 4.
(Oct., 1975), pp. 352-354. 


Thanks to everyone who has replied with such useful
information!

Katherine Davies


--- Luca Manassero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Very, very interesting. Could you please find the
> reference to this 
> article in Early Music?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Luca
> 
> 
> Stewart McCoy on 02/05/2006 18.43 wrote:
> > Dear Craig and Katherine,
> >
> > An alternative to using a strap, which was used in
> the 17th Century,
> > is to tie a gut string between two pegs on the
> body of the
> > instrument. One peg is where you'd expect to see a
> peg, i.e. in the
> > middle of the end clasp; the other peg is fixed
> through the middle
> > rib just before the body joins the neck. The
> string is tied so that
> > it lies flush with the middle rib, and you hook it
> over a button on
> > your coat to stabilise the lute. It is thought
> that Mouton may be
> > holding his lute this way in that famous picture
> of him. If you
> > think the artist hasn't quite got it right, and
> the lute looks as if
> > it is suspended in front of the player as if by
> magic, it is
> > possible that it is being held in this way. There
> is an article by
> > Robert Spencer in _Early Music_, with a picture of
> the back of a
> > lute, showing the gut string tied between two
> pegs. I could look up
> > the reference if you want.
> >
> > If you play the lute standing up, and without a
> strap or a piece of
> > string between two pegs, you have to use your left
> hand to support
> > the instrument. This can be satisfactory for short
> periods, but can
> > cause irritation to the part of the hand holding
> the neck,
> > unaccustomed to the friction involved. Barré
> chords are problematic,
> > so you may have to tinker with the music a bit,
> e.g. change
> >
> >   |\   |
> >   |\   |
> >   |\   |
> > ___a_
> > _f__e|_a__||_
> > ___d_|_c__||_
> > _e___|_c__||_
> > __c__|_c__||_
> > _|_a__||_
> >
> > to
> >
> >   |\   |
> >   |\   |
> >   |\   |
> > _a_a_
> > _a__e|_a__||_
> > _a_d_|_c__||_
> > _|||_
> > __c__|||_
> > _|_a__||_
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Stewart McCoy.
> >   
> >
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Lute straps

[Luca Manassero]

Very, very interesting. Could you please find the reference to this 
article in Early Music?

Thank you,

Luca


Stewart McCoy on 02/05/2006 18.43 wrote:
> Dear Craig and Katherine,
>
> An alternative to using a strap, which was used in the 17th Century,
> is to tie a gut string between two pegs on the body of the
> instrument. One peg is where you'd expect to see a peg, i.e. in the
> middle of the end clasp; the other peg is fixed through the middle
> rib just before the body joins the neck. The string is tied so that
> it lies flush with the middle rib, and you hook it over a button on
> your coat to stabilise the lute. It is thought that Mouton may be
> holding his lute this way in that famous picture of him. If you
> think the artist hasn't quite got it right, and the lute looks as if
> it is suspended in front of the player as if by magic, it is
> possible that it is being held in this way. There is an article by
> Robert Spencer in _Early Music_, with a picture of the back of a
> lute, showing the gut string tied between two pegs. I could look up
> the reference if you want.
>
> If you play the lute standing up, and without a strap or a piece of
> string between two pegs, you have to use your left hand to support
> the instrument. This can be satisfactory for short periods, but can
> cause irritation to the part of the hand holding the neck,
> unaccustomed to the friction involved. Barré chords are problematic,
> so you may have to tinker with the music a bit, e.g. change
>
>   |\   |
>   |\   |
>   |\   |
> ___a_
> _f__e|_a__||_
> ___d_|_c__||_
> _e___|_c__||_
> __c__|_c__||_
> _|_a__||_
>
> to
>
>   |\   |
>   |\   |
>   |\   |
> _a_a_
> _a__e|_a__||_
> _a_d_|_c__||_
> _|||_
> __c__|||_
> _|_a__||_
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart McCoy.
>   
>



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Manolo Laguillo]

  Hi,

There was a system where a string went between the lute's body and the 
player's body, ie on the side of the ribs, and tied to the lute on two 
buttons, one where usual, the other on the opposite side. This string 
was used to 'hang' the instrument from one of the buttons belonging to 
the player's vest.
Another system consists in using a chamois, or sort of, between the lute 
and your body, to avoid the slipping. This is a normal system, quite 
widely used.
The most important point to remember is: NEVER USE THE LEFT HAND TO HOLD 
THE INSTRUMENT. You can seriously injure yourself, as I learned myself 
the hard way.
The lute must be in its correct position nearly by itself, so to say. 
Straps are therefore unavoidable. The bigger the lute the more 
complicated must be the straps system, or bigger your experience. In the 
beginning it is difficult to hold it because we tend to use a muscular 
tension that is really unnecesary. The learning experience consists in 
learning to relax...

Saludos from Barcelona,
Manolo Laguillo

Hopkinson Smith uses two straps, one above the shoulder, the other one 
under himself (he sits on it).
Pascale Boquet plays standing (with a strap, of course), and encourages 
her students to do the same. This was recently explained in the french 
lute list.




Katherine Davies wrote:

>There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
>playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
>strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
>it could be done? 
>
>I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
>puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
>place when I'm sitting down.
>
>thanks, 
>Katherine Davies
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>  
>

--

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Juan Fco. Prieto]

Believe or not, Katherine, even today there is some Spanish flamenco
guitarists that play guitar standing up without any strap (rather for
playing while singing). I used renaissance lute in this way, but I must to
recognise that the strap is more confortable... but not indispensable. I
have strap button since one month only. The instrument is sustained with a
mix of left hand palm, right forearm, belly [ more efficiently on fat
people, stop your diet immediately :-)) ] or chest and, in case of lute,
pinkie right finger. You can see to play guitar like this, for example, the
famous Spanish guitar and voice duo "Los del R=EDo", authors of the famous
"Macarena" song. Well, that seems a little off-topic. Excuse me.
Greetings,

Juan Fco.


2006/5/2, Katherine Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
> playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
> strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
> it could be done?
>
> I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
> puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
> place when I'm sitting down.
>
> thanks,
> Katherine Davies
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>



--
Juan Fco.

--

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[bill kilpatrick]

in the 1st part of joseph baldassare's "playing the
lute in medieval europe" article (lute news 69 - 2004)
he states:

"... predominating evidence shows late-medieval
european luters standing without a strap on their
lutes.  this is especially true prior to the 15th
cent.  in the 15th cent., iconography suggests that
most players stood, but some leaned on supports such
as walls, posts or sat on stools or chairs ... 

"when a player stood, the lute was often held with the
head tilted slightly down.  when the player was
seated, the lute could be in a 'neck down' position,
or parallel to the ground...  it should be also noted,
especially with larger lutes, that the belly of the
lute should be tilting slightly towards the floor. 
this allows the weight of the outside of the right
hand to stabilize the lute even while picking, while
the left hand adds what little extra support is
necessary.

"it is commonly taught, with reasonable support and
logic, that the early 'thumb-under' right hand
technique ... came from the general 'down-up' motion
of the plectrum technique employed by medieval
lutists.  in much of the iconography, this right-hand
position locates the hand below the strings with the
arm located near the bottom of the instrument or even
under the lower bout or curve...  even though this
latter position may seem unreasonable, it may be
interpreted as representing how large lutes were
supported while standing.  iconography often shows
renaissance lutists standing or walking with their
lutes, with their right hand placed decidedly below
the strings. the tradition of renaissance lute players
placing their little finger on the belly of the lute
may perhaps have originated from the necessity of
medieval lutists holding their instruments in standing
positions or while walking."

joseph baldassarre's article is just about the only
lute related document i have - i hope he won't mind me
quoting from it.  

i think for those who are more into recreating early
performance practices as opposed to those who pick and
choose from relevant historical information as they
will, strapless discomfiture is a necessary part of
the process.

i wrote a haiku poem, relevant to the discussion,
which may describe the trials strapless lute players
must endure for their art:

playing my oud nude
while waiting for the shower
red welts, ribs and thigh

- bill

 
--- Katherine Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
> playing lutes while standing up without any sign of
> a
> strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if
> -
> it could be done? 
> 
> I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
> puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
> place when I'm sitting down.
> 
> thanks, 
> Katherine Davies
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

early music charango ... http://groups.google.com/group/charango



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Sean Smith]

 
  Vance, David,
   
  This is a serious list. Please keep the levity to a minimum. ;^)
   
  Concerning straps, there was often a taught string that went from the end 
button to another button close to the neck joint on the bowl. This could be 
attached to a clasp on one's shirt. Of course it would be invisible in most 
iconography. (my old Vandervogel lute has one, too)
   
  Has anyone tried this? Was it successful? 
   
  Sean Smith
   
   
   
  

Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  You are a funny man David. Levitateing Lutes, whoever heard of such a
thing-would that be the original Air Lute? I'm sorry I just couldn't
resist this one.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "David Rastall" 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> On May 2, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Craig Allen wrote:
> > I"ve tried playing the lute standing up without a strap and it's
> > very difficult for me. So I prefer to sit with a piece of suede
> > across my knee to keep the lute from slipping.
>
> Me too. I find it difficult to play standing up, in fact I even use
> a strap when sitting down. But for the purposes of a painting, it's
> easy enough to pose with a lute standing up. Maybe that's what they
> were doing in those paintings; although, the lute-playing angels
> could probably levitate the lute to whatever position they
> wanted... ;-) ;-)
>
> David R
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.rastallmusic.com
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>





--

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Vance Wood]

You are a funny man David.  Levitateing Lutes, whoever heard of such a
thing-would that be the original Air Lute?  I'm sorry I just couldn't
resist this one.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps


> On May 2, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Craig Allen wrote:
> > I"ve tried playing the lute standing up without a strap and it's
> > very difficult for me. So I prefer to sit with a piece of suede
> > across my knee to keep the lute from slipping.
>
> Me too.  I find it difficult to play standing up, in fact I even use
> a strap when sitting down.  But for the purposes of a painting, it's
> easy enough to pose with a lute standing up.  Maybe that's what they
> were doing in those paintings;  although, the lute-playing angels
> could probably levitate the lute to whatever position they
> wanted...  ;-)  ;-)
>
> David R
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.rastallmusic.com
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[David Rastall]

On May 2, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Craig Allen wrote:
> I"ve tried playing the lute standing up without a strap and it's  
> very difficult for me. So I prefer to sit with a piece of suede  
> across my knee to keep the lute from slipping.

Me too.  I find it difficult to play standing up, in fact I even use  
a strap when sitting down.  But for the purposes of a painting, it's  
easy enough to pose with a lute standing up.  Maybe that's what they  
were doing in those paintings;  although, the lute-playing angels  
could probably levitate the lute to whatever position they  
wanted...  ;-)  ;-)

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com





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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Craig Allen]

Katherine Davies wrote:
>
>There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
>playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
>strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
>it could be done? 
>
>I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
>puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
>place when I'm sitting down.

A good friend of mine has been doing studies into the Medieval harp and all the 
iconography she's seen shows what she calls the magically levitating harp. No 
sign of a strap or other gadget to rest it on the knees (one harper I know has 
a crossbar on a wooden knob that fits into the sound hole in the back of the 
harp and the crossbar rests on his knees). She's been trying to figure out 
whether there is some sort of mechanism in place that the painted didn't see or 
if the painters simply didn't understand how the instrument is played took 
artiztic license. I"ve tried playing the lute standing up without a strap and 
it's very difficult for me. So I prefer to sit with a piece of suede across my 
knee to keep the lute from slipping.

Regards,
Craig



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Katherine Davies]

There are lots of renaissance pictures of people
playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a
strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if -
it could be done? 

I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit
puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in
place when I'm sitting down.

thanks, 
Katherine Davies



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[LUTE] Re: lute straps

[Greet Schamp]

Hello Michal,
This is a very nice painting! Where did you get it? Do you know the name of
the painter, the title or the museum where it's kept? 
As many of us, I'm collecting all images of lutes and lute players.
Thanks
Greet Schamp
Belgium

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: marigold castle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Verzonden: maandag 1 mei 2006 6:27
Aan: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Onderwerp: [LUTE] lute straps

 
   
  Here's a bit of evidence for the historic accuracy of straps:
http://www.mit.edu/~thrasher/images/dc/funky_lute.jpg  Looks like an
orangeish strap to me. Granted most re-enactors are re-enacting from earlier
periods so they might not consider that painting evidence of earlier strap
use. 
   
  I'm sure I've seen an earlier, Renaissance if I recall, black and white
illustration (woodcut?) that shows a strolling player with a lute that
appears to have a shoulder strap. I couldn't find a link for that one
unfortunately. So now I'm going to have to worry that my mind is playing
tricks. ;)  
   
  Michal

bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
--- guy_and_liz Smith wrote:

> 
> Hardly. Come to an LSA seminar some time. You'll see
> quite a few folks 
> playing with a strap, myself among them. The person
> who convinced me to try 
> one was Pat O'Brian, who has more than a little
> credibility as a pedagogue 
> as well as a performer.

excellent news - glad to hear it. 

please note i said prior correspondence suggested it's
a no-no to those who "re-enact" early music - not to
those who play it.

well hung - bill





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