[LUTE] Re: Thumb on diapason?
moin sean, moin stewart, i have large hands but a 7-course lute. for me it is not possible to use the left thumb for this cord, the neck is too wide. but i feel comforable with stewarts solution using 1c - 1b. greetings w. - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:22 PM Subject: [LUTE] Thumb on diapason? Dear Sean, This is the passage from Francesco da Milano's Ricercar 27: |\|\ |\| | | c___d___ _a_b__|___|a__|_ a_|_d_|_b_|_ ___c__|_c__b__|_c_|_ ___a__|___|___|_ _d|_c_|_a_|_ There is only one way to finger it, assuming you want to sustain the part-writing. It doesn't involve the left-hand thumb: |\|\ |\| | | __3c4d___ __a_1b__|_|_a__|_ _a__|_4d__|_1b_|_ 2c__|_1c__1b__|_2c_|_ _a__|_||_ _3d_|_2c__|__a_|_ The chord at the beginning of the second bar is not difficult to play, as long as you get the little finger down on the 3rd course in advance, while playing the preceding chord. -o-O-o- It has been suggested, that the left-hand thumb could come in handy for this chord of F major: _c_ _d_ _d_ ___ ___ ___ d Unfortunately I cannot speak from experience, because I have an 8-course lute with low F available as an open string. However, someone with a 7-course lute might find it a useful way of playing that chord, especially if the neck of their lute is not wide at the nut end. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Sean Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb on diapason?
On Dec 1, 2006, at 9:22 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote: There is only one way to finger it, assuming you want to sustain the part-writing. It doesn't involve the left-hand thumb I wonder if that is really the point; that is, one could find many possible fingerings, but that does not necessarily exclude use of the left-hand thumb, does it? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 02.12.2006 03:26:38 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: But in an earler message you mentionned the following, I find at least on the cittern that the damped string gives a nice percussive sound to the chord. You appeared to be talking of damping the string after it has been struck. I just misunderstood from this point. As I said I am not at all sure if my ideas on this subject have an great worth as I don't have a 6course to try them on. But even in the example above that you quoted, I am talking about the sound of a damped string played together with the notes I want to play at the same time. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Andreas and Mark, I was just thinking on this. Is there any music that is clearly written specifically for this type of 12 (not 11 or 13) course lute? Chris --- Andreas Schlegel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear all By the way, the whole problem of basses ringing too long was something that even was a subject for 17th century lutenists with gut strings. The 12 course lute with an extension was only shortly popular in France and then went out of fashion because the basses sounded too long. François-Pierre Goy, one of the main musicologists for these topics (Accords nouveaux), says that he doesn't know any proof that the 12- course double headed lute was EVER used in France. It seems to be an invention of a French man living in England (Jacques Gaultier). We know these lutes from english, dutch and german paintings - but I also never saw a picture from France. Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 02.12.2006 14:23:50 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Andreas and Mark, I was just thinking on this. Is there any music that is clearly written specifically for this type of 12 (not 11 or 13) course lute? Chris Yes there is a lot of music, especially in the flat tuning. It may also be what song books describe as Theorbo-lute. There is little evidence that what we call an archlute was very known in England for instance during the complete 17th century. Archlutes for Purcell is probably more of a modern convention. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Hi Chris and everyone! I was just thinking on this. Is there any music that is clearly written specifically for this type of 12 (not 11 or 13) course lute? Have a look at this: http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm kind regards Are Vidar Hansen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Dear Arthur, thank you for this striking example. From now on I will try to put my left thumb into action when playing Francesco's music as often as possible, ;) Joachim Arthur Ness mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 -- -- Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Frühlingsstraße 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be reproduced by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see if they were even possible? In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction and what the Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to click their thumbs, as it were. Best Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit : Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 01.12.2006 19:59:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mark I am just thinking that the idea of the thumb-damping could perhaps be more relevant to metal wound strings. I think many lute players, even today, damp their metal wound strings (with the right-hand). However, on pure unwound gut strings the sustain almost instantly disappears when you release the course (I suppose this is relative, and damping could still make this more instantaneous) . Perhaps this may not be the case if the course is struck by a plectrum (I have never tried), so it still could be a position carried over from the days of plectrum use. Today, bass oud strings appear to be metal wound. Has this always been the case? Your cittern example is, I feel sure, metal strung. Hi, I am not talking about damping a string that has been struck, but damping a string that I don't want to play. On a renaissance cittern if you play a G chord without a third you just play the highest 3 strings. So I damp the lowest and can go all Pete Townsend :) By the way, the whole problem of basses ringing too long was something that even was a subject for 17th century lutenists with gut strings. The 12 course lute with an extension was only shortly popular in France and then went out of fashion because the basses sounded too long. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Dear all By the way, the whole problem of basses ringing too long was something that even was a subject for 17th century lutenists with gut strings. The 12 course lute with an extension was only shortly popular in France and then went out of fashion because the basses sounded too long. François-Pierre Goy, one of the main musicologists for these topics (Accords nouveaux), says that he doesn't know any proof that the 12- course double headed lute was EVER used in France. It seems to be an invention of a French man living in England (Jacques Gaultier). We know these lutes from english, dutch and german paintings - but I also never saw a picture from France. Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
exemplified by the final 2 pictures on Arthur's page) on a 5-c lute, it is entirely within reason to tune the 5th (lowest) course a 5th below the 4th course. If your tonic or final were now on the lowest course, 2nd fret then you may want to plant the thumb on that 2nd fret. This would be very handy for holding the lute w/out a strap. You could still hold the lute w/ while playing the dominant and sub-dominant as well for, say, Conde claros. With the smaller neck of the 5-c one could even reach over to the 4th course w/ the thumb. Effectively, one could get quite a range for the lowest two strings depending on how the lowest courses were tuned. Also, there was a very close organalogical overlap between the vihuelas de mano and d'arco. If a player played both instruments I'm sure there would be some hand position/tuning overlap as well. I am recalling a discussion that more or less concluded that tuning in 5ths was most beneficial for single line melodies and 4ths more beneficial for multi-line polyphony (with plenty of room for exceptions, of course) I would be more surprised if *no one* had tried this thumb over technique. To my mind, a certain number of players would use it (and some reject it) for as long as baseline-and-treble counterpoints remained popular. No harm, no foul either way. Ok, a question: is there a name for this? Thumb over vs Thumb behind, maybe? --I seem to recall that Thumb out and Thumb under are taken. best regards, Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: Sean and All There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb was used, and the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is whether there is another way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even stronger; but then there are all these images which need explaining. Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be reproduced by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see if they were even possible? In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction and what the Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to click their thumbs, as it were. Best Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit : Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Yes I did understand that the damping could be used to prevent sympathetic resonances (but I though this would be more appropriate to your electric guitar example with pick-up). At first thought, I am surprised this could be as big a problem with unwound gut strings as with wire-wound. I did also think you could be referring to straight damping with the cittern. However, when I think about it, if a bass course is out of tune on a 7c lute, even the top course will sound false, so you are obviously right. It must be because it is ringing (it is just less obvious than with metal strings). Also a 6 course in gut will always sound clearer than an 8 course in gut, even when both are in tune, obviously for the same reason. On reflection, I stand corrected, and if we add the effect of the plectrum, you are obviously on to something. Best Anthony Le 1 déc. 06 à 20:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : In einer eMail vom 01.12.2006 19:59:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Mark I am just thinking that the idea of the thumb-damping could perhaps be more relevant to metal wound strings. I think many lute players, even today, damp their metal wound strings (with the right-hand). However, on pure unwound gut strings the sustain almost instantly disappears when you release the course (I suppose this is relative, and damping could still make this more instantaneous) . Perhaps this may not be the case if the course is struck by a plectrum (I have never tried), so it still could be a position carried over from the days of plectrum use. Today, bass oud strings appear to be metal wound. Has this always been the case? Your cittern example is, I feel sure, metal strung. Hi, I am not talking about damping a string that has been struck, but damping a string that I don't want to play. On a renaissance cittern if you play a G chord without a third you just play the highest 3 strings. So I damp the lowest and can go all Pete Townsend :) By the way, the whole problem of basses ringing too long was something that even was a subject for 17th century lutenists with gut strings. The 12 course lute with an extension was only shortly popular in France and then went out of fashion because the basses sounded too long. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Hi, To put it clear, I am not talking about sympathetic resonances. That is a problem on electric guitars, at high volume. But you also see acoustic guitarists dampening when using a plectrum. I also do not have a 6course lute so I can't test any of this. But what is MAYBE the case, is that plectrum playing lutenists did use the thumb for dampening strings they did not want to sound and that this hand position just stayed for some time until more courses made it impossible. Our problem is that we are trying to reconstruct the start of a story where we know what happened at the end. We have a few bits of information, but we will always be infleunced by what we know (or at least we know more) about later lute playing. There is something quite distateful about early lutenists using what we consider to be bad technique. But if a plectrum lutenist (or maybe a strumming finger lutenist)wanted to play a chord such as C or Eb or D, which did not use the lowest string, the safest way to play these chords is to damp the lowest course. This would allow him to be a bit more free in his strumming. It may also be that even when playing single notes that they sometimes used quite wild wide strokes to get more volume of for effect and dampening the other strings stopped anything sounding that should not. Also interesting is how long 6 course lutes remained popular. I think that a 7th course tuned a tone lower was possible much earlier than it became widespread. Maybe they just liked those fat necks so they could put their thumbs in that strange position. But as I said, I don't have a 6 course and rarely play early 16th century music, so everything I say is just wild conjecture. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Never having played wih a plectrum or used strumming techniques I did not think about the 'wild strumming' hitting wide of the target as it were, and this being equally true of strumming with fingers. But in an earler message you mentionned the following, I find at least on the cittern that the damped string gives a nice percussive sound to the chord. You appeared to be talking of damping the string after it has been struck. I just misunderstood from this point. Best Anthony Le 1 déc. 06 à 23:56, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Hi, To put it clear, I am not talking about sympathetic resonances. That is a problem on electric guitars, at high volume. But you also see acoustic guitarists dampening when using a plectrum. I also do not have a 6course lute so I can't test any of this. But what is MAYBE the case, is that plectrum playing lutenists did use the thumb for dampening strings they did not want to sound and that this hand position just stayed for some time until more courses made it impossible. Our problem is that we are trying to reconstruct the start of a story where we know what happened at the end. We have a few bits of information, but we will always be infleunced by what we know (or at least we know more) about later lute playing. There is something quite distateful about early lutenists using what we consider to be bad technique. But if a plectrum lutenist (or maybe a strumming finger lutenist) wanted to play a chord such as C or Eb or D, which did not use the lowest string, the safest way to play these chords is to damp the lowest course. This would allow him to be a bit more free in his strumming. It may also be that even when playing single notes that they sometimes used quite wild wide strokes to get more volume of for effect and dampening the other strings stopped anything sounding that should not. Also interesting is how long 6 course lutes remained popular. I think that a 7th course tuned a tone lower was possible much earlier than it became widespread. Maybe they just liked those fat necks so they could put their thumbs in that strange position. But as I said, I don't have a 6 course and rarely play early 16th century music, so everything I say is just wild conjecture. best wishes Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit in to the curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Frühlingsstraße 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
I think there's something in general to be said about so-called folk techniques and projected early ones. Wrapping the thumb around the neck and planting the little finger on the top are two examples. Many folk guitarists also play only with thumb and index, although not necessarily thumb under. Some Portuguese guitarists do use thumb under, and dedilho; I've seen fingerstyle guitarists use the latter technique as well. I used to play with traditional Irish fiddlers; one day we were approached by a baroque violinist who wanted to talk to the fiddlers about how they held the violin as it was so similar to what he thought was the correct baroque position. Doc Rossi Element Music Le Grand Domaine Boulevard des Dames 26 13002 Marseille France www.cetrapublishing.com www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (+33) (0)4 91 52 90 45 cell: (+33) (0)6 80 01 58 47 On Nov 30, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 -- --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
I agree with your intuitions, here, I am sure some old renaissance and baroque techniques may well be carried on by folk musicians. Regards Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 16:46, Doc Rossi a écrit : I think there's something in general to be said about so-called folk techniques and projected early ones. Wrapping the thumb around the neck and planting the little finger on the top are two examples. Many folk guitarists also play only with thumb and index, although not necessarily thumb under. Some Portuguese guitarists do use thumb under, and dedilho; I've seen fingerstyle guitarists use the latter technique as well. I used to play with traditional Irish fiddlers; one day we were approached by a baroque violinist who wanted to talk to the fiddlers about how they held the violin as it was so similar to what he thought was the correct baroque position. Doc Rossi Element Music Le Grand Domaine Boulevard des Dames 26 13002 Marseille France www.cetrapublishing.com www.magnatune.com/artists/docrossi.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: (+33) (0)4 91 52 90 45 cell: (+33) (0)6 80 01 58 47 On Nov 30, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 -- --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Dear Anthony and all, yes - but would he use it to thumb his way through his own Fantasia 50 or through La Compagna? Leaving the question aside if the identification with Francesco is convincing or not - I think that too many things going on on the fingerboard mean not so many opportunities for using your thumb and if you do, you will make it difficult for the other fingers of the left hand to do their job properly. All best, Joachim Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Le 30 nov. 06 à 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : Dear Anthony and all,at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ...Thank you JoachimBut about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top).but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position.All the bestAnthonyAll best,Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Frühlingsstraße 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 -- Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Frühlingsstraße 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
In einer eMail vom 30.11.2006 18:49:00 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html I am not sure if this is related, but when I play cittern, I tend to damp the lowest course when I am not using it. The lowest course B can often get in the way especially if you are playing in gminor. Once Stewert MyCoy saw me playing and said he found it interesting that I used the thumb to fret notes. But I wasn't I was just dampening them to avoid hitting the lowest course. My habit comes from rock guitar playing where at high volumes you have to careful to damp anything you don't want to sound. But you also see acoustic guitarists using this to be able to use carefree strumming styles on chords not using the 5th and 6th string. Maybe the earlier lutenists used a simular technique when playing strummed pieces such as those in the earliest lute books. I find at least on the cittern that the damped string gives a nice percussive sound to the chord. This of course doesn't rule out that they used the thumb to fret notes, but maybe a style that developed from plectrum playing kept not only the right hand position, but also the left hand bad habits from those evenings thrashing out dance tunes. Just a thought. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Sean and All There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb was used, and the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is whether there is another way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even stronger; but then there are all these images which need explaining. Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be reproduced by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see if they were even possible? In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction and what the Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to click their thumbs, as it were. Best Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit : Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Dear Mark and all I think that is a very interesting comment. There are photos of Jazz musicians on Jean-Marie's site who appear to be using the thumb blocking method, but it could well be that this is damping : a little like the damper on a piano in fact. Well in the rock example, I suppose it is preventing these strings from picking up vibrations from neighbouring strings. Yes, I think the idea of damping to obtain a punchy dance style, is an interesting hypothesis; and the idea that technique might have been carried on over from the earlier plectrum playing is at least plausible, and a very interesting idea that I will transmit to the French list if I may. Best regards Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:37, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : In einer eMail vom 30.11.2006 18:49:00 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html I am not sure if this is related, but when I play cittern, I tend to damp the lowest course when I am not using it. The lowest course B can often get in the way especially if you are playing in gminor. Once Stewert MyCoy saw me playing and said he found it interesting that I used the thumb to fret notes. But I wasn't I was just dampening them to avoid hitting the lowest course. My habit comes from rock guitar playing where at high volumes you have to careful to damp anything you don't want to sound. But you also see acoustic guitarists using this to be able to use carefree strumming styles on chords not using the 5th and 6th string. Maybe the earlier lutenists used a simular technique when playing strummed pieces such as those in the earliest lute books. I find at least on the cittern that the damped string gives a nice percussive sound to the chord. This of course doesn't rule out that they used the thumb to fret notes, but maybe a style that developed from plectrum playing kept not only the right hand position, but also the left hand bad habits from those evenings thrashing out dance tunes. Just a thought. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Indeed, Anthony, there are many variables involved and I don't think it's possible to rule it out or in. I only brought up the possible solution to show that the musical example itself is more vague than the graphic examples on AJN's page. Consider this scenerio: In performing a tenor and counterpoint by one's self (possibly exemplified by the final 2 pictures on Arthur's page) on a 5-c lute, it is entirely within reason to tune the 5th (lowest) course a 5th below the 4th course. If your tonic or final were now on the lowest course, 2nd fret then you may want to plant the thumb on that 2nd fret. This would be very handy for holding the lute w/out a strap. You could still hold the lute w/ while playing the dominant and sub-dominant as well for, say, Conde claros. With the smaller neck of the 5-c one could even reach over to the 4th course w/ the thumb. Effectively, one could get quite a range for the lowest two strings depending on how the lowest courses were tuned. Also, there was a very close organalogical overlap between the vihuelas de mano and d'arco. If a player played both instruments I'm sure there would be some hand position/tuning overlap as well. I am recalling a discussion that more or less concluded that tuning in 5ths was most beneficial for single line melodies and 4ths more beneficial for multi-line polyphony (with plenty of room for exceptions, of course) I would be more surprised if *no one* had tried this thumb over technique. To my mind, a certain number of players would use it (and some reject it) for as long as baseline-and-treble counterpoints remained popular. No harm, no foul either way. Ok, a question: is there a name for this? Thumb over vs Thumb behind, maybe? --I seem to recall that Thumb out and Thumb under are taken. best regards, Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: Sean and All There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb was used, and the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is whether there is another way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even stronger; but then there are all these images which need explaining. Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be reproduced by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see if they were even possible? In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction and what the Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to click their thumbs, as it were. Best Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit : Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Sean I think, thumb-over is a very good term. I agree, that if there was only one possible way of playing the extract in question, then there would be conclusive proof. At present it seems a high probability that this was practised, especially as you point to interesting advantages of the technique; but , as you say, this does not mean that every one adopted it. Mark Wheeler's idea that 'thumb-over' might be a hang over from plectrum playing also seems an interesting hypothesis. Then, there is the possibility as he suggests that the images might be either of damping or of blocking with the thumb, or even sometimes the one, sometimes the other. The situation as usual, turns out to be more complex than at first sight; but doesn't this lead to a much more interesting life. Thank you for your insight Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 22:59, Sean Smith a écrit : Indeed, Anthony, there are many variables involved and I don't think it's possible to rule it out or in. I only brought up the possible solution to show that the musical example itself is more vague than the graphic examples on AJN's page. Consider this scenerio: In performing a tenor and counterpoint by one's self (possibly exemplified by the final 2 pictures on Arthur's page) on a 5-c lute, it is entirely within reason to tune the 5th (lowest) course a 5th below the 4th course. If your tonic or final were now on the lowest course, 2nd fret then you may want to plant the thumb on that 2nd fret. This would be very handy for holding the lute w/out a strap. You could still hold the lute w/ while playing the dominant and sub-dominant as well for, say, Conde claros. With the smaller neck of the 5-c one could even reach over to the 4th course w/ the thumb. Effectively, one could get quite a range for the lowest two strings depending on how the lowest courses were tuned. Also, there was a very close organalogical overlap between the vihuelas de mano and d'arco. If a player played both instruments I'm sure there would be some hand position/tuning overlap as well. I am recalling a discussion that more or less concluded that tuning in 5ths was most beneficial for single line melodies and 4ths more beneficial for multi-line polyphony (with plenty of room for exceptions, of course) I would be more surprised if *no one* had tried this thumb over technique. To my mind, a certain number of players would use it (and some reject it) for as long as baseline-and-treble counterpoints remained popular. No harm, no foul either way. Ok, a question: is there a name for this? Thumb over vs Thumb behind, maybe? --I seem to recall that Thumb out and Thumb under are taken. best regards, Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: Sean and All There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb was used, and the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is whether there is another way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even stronger; but then there are all these images which need explaining. Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be reproduced by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see if they were even possible? In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction and what the Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to click their thumbs, as it were. Best Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit : Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
How about, All Thumbs? ed At 01:59 PM 11/30/2006 -0800, Sean Smith wrote: Ok, a question: is there a name for this? Thumb over vs Thumb behind, maybe? --I seem to recall that Thumb out and Thumb under are taken. best regards, Sean Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason?
Whoa! I'm having a deja lu moment! s On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: Sean and All There seem to be two questions here, the first is whether the thumb was used, and the example given was a plausible case of this; and the other is whether there is another way out. Of course if there was no way out, the case would be even stronger; but then there are all these images which need explaining. Quite another question, is whether all historic practises NEED to be reproduced by modern players. It might be interesting to try them out to see if they were even possible? In other words, this is more a question of historic reconstruction and what the Renaissance techniques might have been, than a call for every one to click their thumbs, as it were. Best Anthony Le 30 nov. 06 à 19:21, Sean Smith a écrit : Hello all, I don't want to get caught up in the thumb--no thumb debate on the 6th course but there is another way out of the fingering dilemna of Arthur's example from Francesco's Ricercar 27 (it also appears in a Paladin' Milenesa Pavana m. 12-13 and probably elsewhere). First I finger (with the 1st finger already on the F#): 2(3) 3(4) 2(2)-1(1) 2(2) The 2nd finger is a kind of hinge bar that when lifted off the 4th course, the F# is then exposed. I'll confess I haven't tried the wrap-around-thumb but it's not a position I feel comfortable in. Sean On Nov 30, 2006, at 9:45 AM, Arthur Ness wrote: I have put some more examples here, including two supposed Francesco portraits, and a musical example. And some other pictures. http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/thumb.html ==ajn. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: thumb on diapason? Le 30 nov. 06 =E0 15:52, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a ecrit : Dear Anthony and all, at the moment I do not (becaused at the moment I am playing mainly a ten-course instrument) and when I came to the lute I tried to avoid using the left thumb at all, but: it had worked well for me on folk and rock guitar (early nineteenth-century guitar tutors are said to know this technique, too) and I later learned that Ganassi mentions it. I suspect it works very well in chordal accompaniments (and possibly in a rendering of Anji on the six-course lute) but I would avoid it when playing Francesco ... Thank you Joachim But about Francesco, in the painting postulated by some to be of him (by Giulio Campi, 1525, Pinacoteca Civica, Como), there he is with his thumb cocked in the ready position (see http://le.luth.free.fr/ renaissance/index.html, look at collumn 4 line 3). I think it may have been argued that this could be a protrait of him in Lute Festival 2004 Lectures by Mariagrazia Carlone, Portraiture of Sixteenth-Century Lutenists, (see the juxtaposed comparison between this and a known portrait at : http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/ Cleveland2004/Portraits.html#top). but I may be mistaken, and this may not be his playing position. All the best Anthony All best, Joachim Anthony Hind mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Dear All In Lute News N=B079, P.25, we can read that The January 2006 (Vol 24, N=B0 05) issue has a paper on the technique of using the left thumb, over the edge of the neck (seen in some renaissance lute paintings) and often seen in folk guitar techniques. I suppose the article in question was All Fingers and Thumbs by Yehuda Schryer (that I have not read). The Iconography on a web page run by Jean-Marie Poirier shows this clearly (http://le.luth.free.fr/pouce/index.html). Several members of the French lute list have suggested that this might only have been on relatively narrow-necked 5 to 6 course lutes with a semi-circular section (rather than the later wider flatter necks). It has also been suggested that on the lowest courses the diapason and octave would have been very close together, to assist in this thumb-blocking. It almost seems as though the neck-shape is intended to fit ;in to the ; curve of the hand for this technique. However, I would like to ask if any of you actually hold this type of lute in this way, and whether you adopt this thumb over diapason technique. Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Ludtke Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
