Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ignacio Marambio Catán]

There are no free patches for solaris 10

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Aidan Lawn  wrote:
> I just found this out, I don't know if it was announced or not but its news 
> to me.
> The official license can be read here:
>
> http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17
>
> The key bit is:
>
> Please remember, your right to use Solaris acquired as a download is limited 
> to a trial of 90 days, unless you acquire a service contract for the 
> downloaded Software.
>
> Does anyone know when this changed? I just deployed two Solaris 10 servers 
> with the plan of only applying the free patches. I'm now planning to rebuild 
> when opensolaris 2010.03 is released as this project was scoped with no 
> license costs.
> --
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> ___
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
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>
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Daniel Carosone]

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:30:19AM -0300, Ignacio Marambio Cat?n wrote:
> There are no free patches for solaris 10

Nor for OpenSolaris releases (you have to follow the dev builds)

--
Dan.

> 
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Aidan Lawn  wrote:
> > I just found this out, I don't know if it was announced or not but its news 
> > to me.
> > The official license can be read here:
> >
> > http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17
> >
> > The key bit is:
> >
> > Please remember, your right to use Solaris acquired as a download is 
> > limited to a trial of 90 days, unless you acquire a service contract for 
> > the downloaded Software.
> >
> > Does anyone know when this changed? I just deployed two Solaris 10 servers 
> > with the plan of only applying the free patches. I'm now planning to 
> > rebuild when opensolaris 2010.03 is released as this project was scoped 
> > with no license costs.
> > --
> > This message posted from opensolaris.org
> > ___
> > opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> > opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
> >
> ___
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org


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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Octave Orgeron]

Yeah, you would think atleast the recommended patch clusters would be available 
for free, but alas no. Definitely a big blow for many users and customers.

 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Octave J. Orgeron
Solaris Virtualization Architect and Consultant
Web: http://unixconsole.blogspot.com
E-Mail: unixcons...@yahoo.com
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



- Original Message 
From: Daniel Carosone 
To: Ignacio Marambio Cat?n 
Cc: Aidan Lawn ; opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
Sent: Sun, March 21, 2010 10:46:29 PM
Subject: Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:30:19AM -0300, Ignacio Marambio Cat?n wrote:
> There are no free patches for solaris 10

Nor for OpenSolaris releases (you have to follow the dev builds)

--
Dan.

> 
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Aidan Lawn  wrote:
> > I just found this out, I don't know if it was announced or not but its news 
> > to me.
> > The official license can be read here:
> >
> > http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17
> >
> > The key bit is:
> >
> > Please remember, your right to use Solaris acquired as a download is 
> > limited to a trial of 90 days, unless you acquire a service contract for 
> > the downloaded Software.
> >
> > Does anyone know when this changed? I just deployed two Solaris 10 servers 
> > with the plan of only applying the free patches. I'm now planning to 
> > rebuild when opensolaris 2010.03 is released as this project was scoped 
> > with no license costs.
> > --
> > This message posted from opensolaris.org
> > ___
> > opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> > opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
> >
> ___
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org



  
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ian Collins]

On 03/22/10 04:19 PM, Aidan Lawn wrote:

I just found this out, I don't know if it was announced or not but its news to 
me.
The official license can be read here:

http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17

The key bit is:

Please remember, your right to use Solaris acquired as a download is limited to 
a trial of 90 days, unless you acquire a service contract for the downloaded 
Software.

   
This isn't the place to discuss Solaris 10 licensing.  This topic has 
been discussed on comp.unix.solaris yesterday.



Does anyone know when this changed? I just deployed two Solaris 10 servers with 
the plan of only applying the free patches. I'm now planning to rebuild when 
opensolaris 2010.03 is released as this project was scoped with no license 
costs.
   


If the servers are doing something worthwhile, it's folly not to have at 
least minimum software support.


--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Aidan Lawn]

I did not know opensolaris costs too, that is a shame.

Thanks for the feed back, I didn't know about the comp.unix thread but have 
found it now.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Aidan Lawn]

To update my earlier post:

Opensolaris is free but it has no patches. 

Well none until the next 6 month release (There was a paid for montly repo but 
this is supposed to be discontinued).

To get security patches or any patches you need to be using the opensolaris dev 
line. 


There was talk of creating an /update or /security repository for the stable 
line in a thread which is where i got this info from here: 
http://opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=467514

But it looks like everyone is just waiting for 2010.03 to be officially 
released and see what support Oracle is planning first.


I don't even think microsoft could come up with a better FUD campaign than what 
oracle is doing themselves to opensolaris.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support contract or for that matter 
license it at all under X64/X86 unless you are using it on Sun Hardware. This 
little ditty has just forced us to move are apache servers to Linux. ;{
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Svein Skogen]

On 22.03.2010 12:43, Mike DeMarco wrote:

FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support contract or for that matter 
license it at all under X64/X86 unless you are using it on Sun Hardware. This 
little ditty has just forced us to move are apache servers to Linux. ;{


So, the old "perpetual license" I received, per mail, for Solaris on 
selfbuilt hardware is... About as perpetual as a snowball in the 
underworld?


//Svein

--

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off for service. PGP not installed.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Volker A. Brandt]

> > FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support contract or for that 
> > matter license it at all under X64/X86 unless you are using it on Sun 
> > Hardware. This little ditty has just forced us to move are apache servers 
> > to Linux. ;{
>
> So, the old "perpetual license" I received, per mail, for Solaris on
> selfbuilt hardware is... About as perpetual as a snowball in the
> underworld?

I also find it hard to believe that Oracle should revoke perpetual
licenses and refuse good money from non-Sun hardware customers.

This is more a PR disaster.  Oracle needs to spell out what it will
and will not allow with Solaris more clearly.

Two weeks ago, I attended a "Sun Oracle Welcome" event in Frankfurt.
None of the things people keep complaining about on the net were
confirmed, except one (no free security patches any more).

Gerry Haskins (Director, Software Patch Services) explicitly stated
that Oracle will sell a support contract for both Solaris 10 and 
OpenSolaris.  It was clear that this is on whatever existing hardware the
customer has, since it is a "software only" contract.

Still people go on and on about it.  This is just FUD mongering.


Regards -- Volker
-- 

Volker A. Brandt  Consulting and Support for Sun Solaris
Brandt & Brandt Computer GmbH   WWW: http://www.bb-c.de/
Am Wiesenpfad 6, 53340 Meckenheim Email: v...@bb-c.de
Handelsregister: Amtsgericht Bonn, HRB 10513  Schuhgröße: 45
Geschäftsführer: Rainer J. H. Brandt und Volker A. Brandt
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> This isn't the place to discuss Solaris 10 licensing.  This topic has
> been discussed on comp.unix.solaris yesterday.

This is a fine place to discuss anything about solaris or opensolaris,
regardless of whether or not it's already been discussed elsewhere.  You
can't expect people to know everything that's buried away on the Internet
somewhere.

If you go to sun.com/solaris, and you want community discussion or support,
it directs you to opensolaris.  So again, this is a fine place to discuss
such topics.  Don't be so unfriendly.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support contract or for that
> matter license it at all under X64/X86 unless you are using it on Sun
> Hardware. This little ditty has just forced us to move are apache
> servers to Linux. ;{

That's not true.  I don't know how many vendors do this, but I know Dell
does.  Here's how to prove it:
Browse to dell.com
For medium & small business, servers.
Rack Servers
Click PowerEdge R710
Customize It.

You can select Solaris as the OS, and it includes support subscription.

There are many Dell servers that you can buy with solaris.  I just named the
R710 because I bought one with solaris on it, so it was an easy way for me
to demonstrate and repeat.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> > > FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support contract or for
> that matter license it at all under X64/X86 unless you are using it on
> Sun Hardware. This little ditty has just forced us to move are apache
> servers to Linux. ;{
> 
> This is more a PR disaster.  Oracle needs to spell out what it will
> and will not allow with Solaris more clearly.

Again, not a PR disaster, because it's false.  As I said in my other post,
you can buy non-Sun hardware with solaris contracts.  Easiest example to
show is Dell servers sold with solaris support.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

> > FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support
> contract or for that
> > matter license it at all under X64/X86 unless you
> are using it on Sun
> > Hardware. This little ditty has just forced us to
> move are apache
> > servers to Linux. ;{
> 
> That's not true.  I don't know how many vendors do
> this, but I know Dell
> does.  Here's how to prove it:
> Browse to dell.com
> For medium & small business, servers.
> Rack Servers
> Click PowerEdge R710
> Customize It.
> 
> You can select Solaris as the OS, and it includes
> support subscription.
> 
> There are many Dell servers that you can buy with
> solaris.  I just named the
> R710 because I bought one with solaris on it, so it
> was an easy way for me
> to demonstrate and repeat.
> 
> ___
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
> 

I will verify, this has come directly from our sun/oracle sales rep.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Dave Koelmeyer]

> I just found this out, I don't know if it was
> announced or not but its news to me.
> The official license can be read here:
> 
> http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17

The change itself and the way in which it has been communicated (or not, 
rather) is cause for concern. 

The barrier to entry has just been raised in a major way, and I can't see how 
in any way, shape or form this is a positive or progressive step. I would have 
hoped Oracle were straight up about it, rather than alter the small type in the 
license statement and leave it for customers to join the dots. Also, according 
to many parts of the web site itself, Solaris is still being promoted as being 
either "free" and/or free for download - which is just plain confusing. 

So, does anyone know if this license change retrospectively affects Solaris 10 
installations pre-acquisition?

Disappointed it's coming to this.
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> I will verify, this has come directly from our sun/oracle sales rep.

Did anybody ever say the Sun/Oracle sales reps are totally honest, totally
informed, and totally unbiased?  ;-)

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Edward Ned Harvey]

> > I just found this out, I don't know if it was
> > announced or not but its news to me.
> > The official license can be read here:
> >
> > http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17
> 
> The change itself and the way in which it has been communicated (or
> not, rather) is cause for concern.
> 
> The barrier to entry has just been raised in a major way, and I can't
> see how in any way, shape or form this is a positive or progressive
> step. I would have hoped Oracle were straight up about it, rather than
> alter the small type in the license statement and leave it for
> customers to join the dots. Also, according to many parts of the web
> site itself, Solaris is still being promoted as being either "free"
> and/or free for download - which is just plain confusing.
> 
> So, does anyone know if this license change retrospectively affects
> Solaris 10 installations pre-acquisition?
> 
> Disappointed it's coming to this.

Again, as in my other posts in this thread, it's false.

Yes, you can buy solaris for x86 hardware.  I know because I buy it with
Dell servers.

It is possible for them to ship solaris with a different license via the
website, or via purchased with a non-Sun server.  So perhaps the one on the
website available for free download might have this restriction in it.  But
the one that ships with a Dell server certainly doesn't.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

> > > I just found this out, I don't know if it was
> > > announced or not but its news to me.
> > > The official license can be read here:
> > >
> > >
> http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17
> > 
> > The change itself and the way in which it has been
> communicated (or
> > not, rather) is cause for concern.
> > 
> > The barrier to entry has just been raised in a
> major way, and I can't
> > see how in any way, shape or form this is a
> positive or progressive
> > step. I would have hoped Oracle were straight up
> about it, rather than
> > alter the small type in the license statement and
> leave it for
> > customers to join the dots. Also, according to many
> parts of the web
> > site itself, Solaris is still being promoted as
> being either "free"
> > and/or free for download - which is just plain
> confusing.
> > 
> > So, does anyone know if this license change
> retrospectively affects
> > Solaris 10 installations pre-acquisition?
> > 
> > Disappointed it's coming to this.
> 
> Again, as in my other posts in this thread, it's
> false.
> 
> Yes, you can buy solaris for x86 hardware.  I know
> because I buy it with
> Dell servers.
> 
> It is possible for them to ship solaris with a
> different license via the
> website, or via purchased with a non-Sun server.  So
> perhaps the one on the
> website available for free download might have this
> restriction in it.  But
> the one that ships with a Dell server certainly
> doesn't.
> 
> ___
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
> 

HPs web site also states that they will sell Solaris for proliant  servers and 
the support will go through Sun. BUT < "big but" will this change when Oracle 
makes a "Official" announcement?
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

> > > > I just found this out, I don't know if it was
> > > > announced or not but its news to me.
> > > > The official license can be read here:
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/popup.jsp?info=17
> > > 
> > > The change itself and the way in which it has
> been
> > communicated (or
> > > not, rather) is cause for concern.
> > > 
> > > The barrier to entry has just been raised in a
> > major way, and I can't
> > > see how in any way, shape or form this is a
> > positive or progressive
> > > step. I would have hoped Oracle were straight up
> > about it, rather than
> > > alter the small type in the license statement
> and
> > leave it for
> > > customers to join the dots. Also, according to
> many
> > parts of the web
> > > site itself, Solaris is still being promoted as
> > being either "free"
> > > and/or free for download - which is just plain
> > confusing.
> > > 
> > > So, does anyone know if this license change
> > retrospectively affects
> > > Solaris 10 installations pre-acquisition?
> > > 
> > > Disappointed it's coming to this.
> > 
> > Again, as in my other posts in this thread, it's
> > false.
> > 
> > Yes, you can buy solaris for x86 hardware.  I know
> > because I buy it with
> > Dell servers.
> > 
> > It is possible for them to ship solaris with a
> > different license via the
> > website, or via purchased with a non-Sun server.
>  So
>  perhaps the one on the
>  website available for free download might have this
>  restriction in it.  But
>  the one that ships with a Dell server certainly
>  doesn't.
>  
>  ___
>  opensolaris-discuss mailing list
>  opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
>  
> 
> HPs web site also states that they will sell Solaris
> for proliant  servers and the support will go through
> Sun. BUT  "big but" will this change when Oracle
> makes a "Official" announcement?
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

> FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support
> contract or for that matter license it at all under
> X64/X86 unless you are using it on Sun Hardware. This
> little ditty has just forced us to move are apache
> servers to Linux. ;{
I have been assured by Sun/Oracle sales reps that this announcement is coming.

You will only be able to buy Solaris 10 licensing on Oracle X64 sold servers.
No Dell, No HP, No IBM.

I hate it, Being forced into a inferior OS "linux" is my idea of Hell
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Daniel Carosone]

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:07:20AM -0700, Aidan Lawn wrote:
> 
> I don't even think microsoft could come up with a better FUD
> campaign than what oracle is doing themselves to opensolaris. 

Well, I think they're supplying the U.  The F and the D are coming
from elsewhere, fairly or not, but all three fester and feed on
eachother. 

--
Dan.



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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Sean Sprague]

Edward,


This isn't the place to discuss Solaris 10 licensing.  This topic has
been discussed on comp.unix.solaris yesterday.
 

This is a fine place to discuss anything about solaris or opensolaris,
regardless of whether or not it's already been discussed elsewhere.  You
can't expect people to know everything that's buried away on the Internet
somewhere.

If you go to sun.com/solaris, and you want community discussion or support,
it directs you to opensolaris.  So again, this is a fine place to discuss
such topics.  Don't be so unfriendly.
   


At risk of being as "unfriendly" as Ian (which he isn't), please check 
the list title "osol-discuss", and note the leading "o". This is not a 
Solaris forum, this is an OpenSolaris discussion forum; and Solaris and 
OpenSolaris are not the same beast (and possibly now will never be). I 
couldn't find the redirection that you allude to; but if you go to an 
Oracle Solaris page for community support, and it redirects you to an 
OpenSolaris page, then this is an implicit error. Actually, I am not 
certain the former actually exists ICBWT.


And for reference, nothing is "buried away on the Internet somewhere" - 
Google has seen to that ;-) No seriously, BigAdmin and Solarisinternals 
are fine sites for *Solaris info.


Sorry... Sean.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Svein Skogen]

On 22.03.2010 16:02, Daniel Carosone wrote:

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 12:07:20AM -0700, Aidan Lawn wrote:


I don't even think microsoft could come up with a better FUD
campaign than what oracle is doing themselves to opensolaris.


Well, I think they're supplying the U.  The F and the D are coming
from elsewhere, fairly or not, but all three fester and feed on
eachother.


The "F" part comes, in part, from many peoples ... colorful experiences 
with over-commercialized ventures and their lack of understanding how 
the free/open source crowd thinks.


The "U" part comes from ... no clear words from Oracle, but a lot of 
small-print-changes. We've grown used to "no comment" meaning "we don't 
want you writing about this, focus on our glossy sales-material 
instead", and thus interpret the changes in small print in the worst way 
possible.


The "D" bit is supplied by people with some past experience dealing with 
the new owner of Sun. Just take a look at how well running the DBozilla 
inside a VMWare+VMotion cluster is supported. ;)


//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Matthias Pfützner]

You (Mike DeMarco) wrote:
> > FYI You can not buy a Solaris 10 software support
> > contract or for that matter license it at all under
> > X64/X86 unless you are using it on Sun Hardware. This
> > little ditty has just forced us to move are apache
> > servers to Linux. ;{
> I have been assured by Sun/Oracle sales reps that this announcement is coming.

Which? The "not buy" or the "buy"?

Note: Oracle also is undergoing a learning experience, you can be sure of that!
So, things that "seem" to be the case "right now" might change in a
minute... ;-)

So, don't be to sure, you think to know, what's right or wrong. Unless
explicitly stated somewhere, simply wait and see!

Just two days ago, Oracle finished the cleanup of the ex-Sun pricelists. Sun
had more than 190 different pricelists, now it simply is ONE. Make things
easier, that's the goal...

So, stay tuned! And simply be patient!

As Larry said: It's not the most expensive acquisition that Oracle has ever
done, but it's by far the biggest!

  Matthias
-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Plötzlich hat [Lubitsch] 
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | also Schokolade aus
D-64289 Darmstadt | AIM: pfuetz, ICQ: 300967487  | Hühnerscheiße gemacht.
Germany  | http://www.pfuetzner.de/matthias/ | Billy Wilder
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ian Collins]

On 03/23/10 01:19 AM, Edward Ned Harvey wrote:

Please don't snip attributions, it's rude.


This isn't the place to discuss Solaris 10 licensing.  This topic has
been discussed on comp.unix.solaris yesterday.
 

This is a fine place to discuss anything about solaris or opensolaris,
regardless of whether or not it's already been discussed elsewhere.  You
can't expect people to know everything that's buried away on the Internet
somewhere.

   
Nothing's hidden on the internet these days, I simply redirected the OP 
to an existing discussion on this topic.  This is an OpenSolaris list 
and Solaris != OpenSolaris.



If you go to sun.com/solaris, and you want community discussion or support,
it directs you to opensolaris.  So again, this is a fine place to discuss
such topics.  Don't be so unfriendly.

   
I'm not being unfriendly, I was being helpful.  As you can see, all 
that's happened on this thread is more pointless speculation.


--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Daniel Carosone]

Regardless of accuracy or Uncertainty, a discussion about whether one
can buy something or from which vendors is irrelevant if one is not
looking to purchase.

Those of us looking to use free and open source systems, for whatever
reason and purpose, are interested in different questions than the one
which has apparently hijacked this thread.

--
Dan.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Stephen Bunn]

On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Edward Ned Harvey
wrote:

> Again, as in my other posts in this thread, it's false.
>
> Yes, you can buy solaris for x86 hardware.  I know because I buy it with
> Dell servers.
>
> It is possible for them to ship solaris with a different license via the
> website, or via purchased with a non-Sun server.  So perhaps the one on the
> website available for free download might have this restriction in it.  But
> the one that ships with a Dell server certainly doesn't.
>
> ___
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> opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
>

I applaud your commitment to Sun/Oracle.  It might very well be possible to
purchase a contract for Solaris from Dell.  That does not change the fact,
however, that the license agreement has changed, without warning, and
without notification or clarification.   It creates confusion and allows
threads like these to happen.  I understand the merger is fresh and a lot
needs to be worked out.  Communication is the key. Communicate with your
customers, ensure your sales reps have the latest information, and make sure
you customers understand what is going... or lose them.

Oracle needs to let customers know exactly what the license is for Solaris
and OpenSolaris.  Having different license's from different vendors is
ridiculous and only hurts the adoption of Solaris.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 08:52 +0900, Stephen Bunn wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Edward Ned Harvey
>  wrote:
> Again, as in my other posts in this thread, it's false.
> 
> Yes, you can buy solaris for x86 hardware.  I know because I
> buy it with
> Dell servers.
> 
> It is possible for them to ship solaris with a different
> license via the
> website, or via purchased with a non-Sun server.  So perhaps
> the one on the
> website available for free download might have this
> restriction in it.  But
> the one that ships with a Dell server certainly doesn't.
> 
> 
> ___
> opensolaris-discuss mailing list
> opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org
> 
> 
> I applaud your commitment to Sun/Oracle.  It might very well be
> possible to purchase a contract for Solaris from Dell.  That does not
> change the fact, however, that the license agreement has changed,
> without warning, and without notification or clarification.   It
> creates confusion and allows threads like these to happen.  I
> understand the merger is fresh and a lot needs to be worked out.
> Communication is the key. Communicate with your customers, ensure your
> sales reps have the latest information, and make sure you customers
> understand what is going... or lose them.
> 
> Oracle needs to let customers know exactly what the license is for
> Solaris and OpenSolaris.  Having different license's from different
> vendors is ridiculous and only hurts the adoption of Solaris.
> ___
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> opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org

fwiw, I spent several hours today in phone tree hell, being transferred
here and there, to totally incorrect departments, and being hung up on
too many times.  Yes, hours.  I'm stunned to think anyone would run a
business that way. 

I can report that it appears as though nobody in the "Oracle Collective"
has a clue.  They will sell/renews a license, wh/in turn is apparently
now requisite to purchase support contract. Also apparently can now only
buy license for Sun SPARC hardware. So it looks like those running on
x86 hardware not currently under contract are hosed, unable to get bare
minimum security patches. Speaking of patches, above is my take home
patched together from several different parties.

When you try informing them that you already have a "perpetual license"
from Solaris 10 download prior to the change, you're then "refered" to a
Sun Support number "that handles that".  I got 3 different such numbers,
two of which were out of service.  The one hat worked did get me to a
nice native english speaking gentleman who earnestly wanted to help out
but had never come across this issue before.  After researching the
issue a bit while I was on hold, he needed to escalate and have someone
get back with me.  I'm still waiting for that call back.

I also tried calling my local Sun office.  But they've been "Right
Sized" that I'm not sure if anyone is actually there anymore.  The
nameplate on the door of ther fancy downtown digs is still in place, but
it's been locked the couple times I've tried dropping by in recent
months. The Sun folks I used to know were riff'd back in 2008, so no
help there.  Callers get a recording informing you that nobody is
available to take your call and to push some extension to leave a
message. Have yet to get a call back from there either.

Maybe HP, Dell, etc. have some special deal.  Or maybe they've just not
yet figured out that they're also hosed.  From what I've been able to
piece together:

1) Licenses for other than 90 evaluation must be purchased.

2) No commercially usable licenses for non SPARC hardware.

3) License is required to buy support contract.

4) Support contract is now required for even minimum security patch
bundles.

5) Sun Solaris became dubbed -> Oracle Solaris wh/seems to have now
become dubbed -> Operating Systems support.  Nobody I talked to in
Oracle side actually knew what Solaris was.  Seriously, I b.s you not.

I have a very difficult time swallowing the "be patient" line.  Oracle
had many months for planning whilst awaiting EU approval.  What we're
seeing now are the very carefully calculated results of said planning.
To be anything otherwise would be completely out of character for Larry.
I get the suspicion that the Sun has set on Solaris as a stand alone
product and moving forward those who want to use it are going to have to
send the big bucks for "Hardware, Software, Complete" solutions.

To the fanboys, lets review the track record here:

1) Security patch bundles cease being freely available, w/no advance
warning.

2) Solaris 10 license are changed such that you can no longer use for
more than 90 days evaluation w/o "Entitlement".  Again, w/o any advance
notice.

3) New Entitlements a

Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

just got this in from Sun Sales rep.

 Oracle Hardware Service Changes
   Support Options
 I.   Systems
 Premier Support for Systems
    Covers system hardware, OS and virtualization software
    One level of Service
    7/24 with 2 hour onsite response
    Available within 25 miles of designated metro center
    12% of customer’s net system price
**Upon renewal, all current Sun Spectrum hardware and system support
customer’s will be migrated to the new offering receiving upgraded service
levels
 II. OS and Systems Software
 Premier Support for Operating System
    Covers Oracle; Solaris, Enterprise, Linux and Oracle VM (OVM) 
running on Sun
 Hardware
    8% of customer’s net system price
 Premier Support for Software (Non OS)
    22% of customer’s net software license value
    There will only be one price list – Hardware Price List
    Service pricing is based on hardware price
III. Advanced Customer Services
 Packaged Services
Installation
Professional Services
Premier Support Qualification (Recertification)
Data and Device Retention (Secure Disk)
 Expert Services
On Site Resources
Custom PS
 Operations Management
Managed Services
IV. Warranty Information Effective March 16th 2010
1 year from ship date
a. Phone coverage 5x9 Monday-Friday
b. Web coverage 24x7
 **Users are required to register their warranty in order to log service 
requests.
c. Phone Response time
  i. P1 – 4 hours
 ii. P2 – 8 hours
iii. P3 – next business day
d. Parts Replacement:
i. Customer Replaceable unit: parts exchange only (CRU fee no
   longer applicable)
   ii. Field Replaceable unit: delivered by Oracle or authorized
   partner
  iii. Response SLA: 2 days
   e. Firmware fixes provided
V. Renewal Guidelines
i. Upon renewal, all contracts will be migrated to a one year 
(12
   month) Premier Support contract
VI. Service Portfolio Details:
   http://www.oracle.com/us/support/systems/operating-
   systems/index.html
   http://www.oracle.com/us/support/systems/premier/index.html
   http://www.oracle.com/us/support/systems/advanced-customer-
   services/index.html
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Richard L. Hamilton]

[...]
>  8% of customer’s net system price
>    There will only be one price list –
>  Hardware Price List
>    Service pricing is based on hardware
>  price
[...]

Well..._that_ destroys support for the home user.  I mean, am I really
going to spend 8% * the $12000 or so that my Sun Blade 2000 (with XVR-1000 
graphics)
cost new, when I bought it used off of eBay for maybe $1000?

(8% of $12000 is $960, enough to buy an entire system these days, or for that 
matter
only a few bucks less than a bare-bones Sun Blade 100 cost new; I ought to 
know, as
I actually did buy my Sun Blade 100 new, just a couple months after they first 
came out.
This is crazy...worse that the Microsoft tax almost.)

The cheap sunsolve-only support is really needed...
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 07:54 -0700, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> [...]
> >  8% of customer’s net system price
> >    There will only be one price list –
> >  Hardware Price List
> >    Service pricing is based on hardware
> >  price
> [...]
> 
> Well..._that_ destroys support for the home user.  I mean, am I really
> going to spend 8% * the $12000 or so that my Sun Blade 2000 (with XVR-1000 
> graphics)
> cost new, when I bought it used off of eBay for maybe $1000?
> 
> (8% of $12000 is $960, enough to buy an entire system these days, or for that 
> matter
> only a few bucks less than a bare-bones Sun Blade 100 cost new; I ought to 
> know, as
> I actually did buy my Sun Blade 100 new, just a couple months after they 
> first came out.
> This is crazy...worse that the Microsoft tax almost.)

So what I was able to piece together yesterday is confirmed: No patch
updates for non Sun hardware.

Leave it to Larry to find a loophole around Solaris 10's "Perpetual
License".

> The cheap sunsolve-only support is really needed...

Free security patch updates are what's needed.  But what's really needed
is for someone to take a bat to Ellison.  Nobody has the moxie for that
so I'm going to be in contact with my legislators and file complaints
about this.  Larry has effectively yanked the rug out from under every
small to medium sizes business that's been foolish to build Solaris 10
into their infrastructure these past few years based upon reasonable
conclusions drawn from the Solaris 10 license. 

There go the past two year's work down the drain.  I saw this coming
weeks ago when the security patches went away and have been
transitioning servers back to OpenBSD.  I was "being patient" to see
what actually did shake out in the wash for those last couple boxes
though.  And as expected, Oracle is fsck'ing us up the arse.

-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 04:46 -0700, Mike DeMarco wrote:
> just got this in from Sun Sales rep.
> 
[snip the royal arse fsck'ing by Oracle]
> VI. Service Portfolio Details:
>http://www.oracle.com/us/support/systems/operating-
>systems/index.html
>http://www.oracle.com/us/support/systems/premier/index.html
>http://www.oracle.com/us/support/systems/advanced-customer-

Now just got to those links, call the 800 number, and actually try to
buy support.

This from one of my "I told you so" buddies who has a way with hitting
the nail squarely on the head:

"Why the surprise?

A 'remainderman' buys a dying livery stable (SunSoft) just before it goes 
bankrupt.

He decides to render the overage horses into dog food and glue - least 
productive ones first.

Meanwhile, converting the clientèle into customers for his rental fleet of 
cheap, perpetually broken, but heavily chrome-plated bicycles.

Many victims would bitch that they can no longer ride the aged horses, have to 
pay a higher price and use more muscle power to operate the creaky and 
overweight bicycles, and that the service cost is outrageous.

Others would ignore the faults, brag about their association with a big-name 
vendor, and try to convert others to share their misery.

Show business is all Larry has to work with, it has made him rich, he doesn't 
know any other business but the clever name-branding of inferior goods and 
services to be sold at inflated prices. And the 'Islam' and 'Scientology' scams 
are already taken, so he can't go there.

In due course, his bicycle fleet will be treated the same way by some other 
remainderman.

Larry, of course, has a 50-50 chance between living an uber-rich retirement on 
the proceeds he's extorted from fools lo these many years. Or dying young(ish) 
from choking on his own viciousness. I'd bet on the latter, but I don't really 
care. Never did."

Adios Solaris.  Long live OpenSolaris.  Yeah, right, like Larry's going to let 
that happen  Next.

-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alex Viskovatoff]

> 2) Solaris 10 license are changed such that you can no longer use for
more than 90 days evaluation w/o "Entitlement". Again, w/o any advance
notice.

> 3) New Entitlements are now only available with purchase of SPARC
hardware.

I had a look at the licensing information that there is a link to on the 
following page:
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/get.jsp#expandkit

That information ends as follows:

> Solaris 10 Registration Process for Non-Download Customers
> If you obtained Solaris 10 by means other than a download or are installing 
> Solaris 10 on systems that have not yet been registered, you must still 
> register to receive an Entitlement Document that gives you the right to use 
> the software past the 90-day evaluation period and for commercial purposes.

So being limited to a 90-day evaluation period appears to apply only if you 
obtained Solaris 10 by downloading it. On the same page, there is a link to Buy 
the Solaris 10 10/09 DVD Media Kit. That kid costs $30.00.

Of course, you don't get support that way, but "home hobbyists" were unlikely 
to buy support anyway, and it seems that they can remain legal past 90 days by 
just shelling out $30.00.

Solaris 10 is comparable to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. I don't know how the two 
compare in terms of pricing and policies on free security updates etc. One 
difference between the two is that since Solaris is not released under the GPU, 
Oracle/Sun is not obliged to release the Solaris equivalent of source RPMs. 
Thus, there is not the possibility of an option equivalent to CentOS emerging 
in the case of Solaris.

So the title of this thread is misleading. Yes, Solaris 10 is no longer free, 
but it hasn't become prohibitively expensive, either.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Tue, 2010-03-23 at 15:30 -0700, Alex Viskovatoff wrote:
> > 2) Solaris 10 license are changed such that you can no longer use for
> more than 90 days evaluation w/o "Entitlement". Again, w/o any advance
> notice.
> 
> > 3) New Entitlements are now only available with purchase of SPARC
> hardware.
> 
> I had a look at the licensing information that there is a link to on the 
> following page:
> http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/get.jsp#expandkit
> 
> That information ends as follows:
> 
> > Solaris 10 Registration Process for Non-Download Customers
> > If you obtained Solaris 10 by means other than a download or are installing 
> > Solaris 10 on systems that have not yet been registered, you must still 
> > register to receive an Entitlement Document that gives you the right to use 
> > the software past the 90-day evaluation period and for commercial purposes.
> 
> So being limited to a 90-day evaluation period appears to apply only if you 
> obtained Solaris 10 by downloading it. On the same page, there is a link to 
> Buy the Solaris 10 10/09 DVD Media Kit. That kid costs $30.00.
> 
> Of course, you don't get support that way, but "home hobbyists" were unlikely 
> to buy support anyway, and it seems that they can remain legal past 90 days 
> by just shelling out $30.00.
> 
> Solaris 10 is comparable to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. I don't know how the 
> two compare in terms of pricing and policies on free security updates etc. 
> One difference between the two is that since Solaris is not released under 
> the GPU, Oracle/Sun is not obliged to release the Solaris equivalent of 
> source RPMs. Thus, there is not the possibility of an option equivalent to 
> CentOS emerging in the case of Solaris.
> 
> So the title of this thread is misleading. Yes, Solaris 10 is no longer free, 
> but it hasn't become prohibitively expensive, either.

Suggest you read a little more thoroughly:

"In order to use the Solaris operating system for perpetual commercial
use, each system running Solaris must be expressly licensed to do so. An
Entitlement Document comprises such license and is delivered to you
either with a new Sun system or from Sun Services as part of your
service agreement."

Pay particular attention to those last two words.  Now go price service
agreements. Entry level service agreements are now on the order of
$1,000.00/yr.  Who in their right mind would want to run a system w/o
the previously free security patches? So, yes, it has become
prohibitively expensive.

But that's not all... Assume $1k/yr/machine is of no consequence to you
and you try to actually purchase a service agreement for non Sun branded
hardware.  Ah... a patched Solaris 10 just became _impossible_.  But
then that was obviously the objective.

In other news, FreeBSD-7.3-RELEASE timing seems ironically apropos:

"The FreeBSD Release Engineering Team is pleased to announce the availability
of FreeBSD 7.3-RELEASE.  This is the fourth release from the 7-STABLE branch
which improves on the functionality of FreeBSD 7.2 and introduces a few
new features.  There will be one more release from this branch to allow
future improvements to be made available in the 7-STABLE branch but at this
point most developers are focused on 8-STABLE.

Some of the highlights:

- ZFS updated to version 13
- new boot loader gptzfsboot supports GPT and ZFS
- hwpmc(4) enhancements including support for core2/i7 processor
  and pmcannotate(8)
- new mfiutil and mptutil tools for widely used RAID controllers
- NULL pointer vulnerability mitigation
- bind updated to 9.4-ESV
- Gnome updated to 2.28.2
- KDE updated to 4.3.5
- Perl updated to 5.10

For a complete list of new features and known problems, please see the
online release notes and errata list, available at:

http://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/7.3R/relnotes.html
http://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/7.3R/errata.html";

-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alex Viskovatoff]

> Suggest you read a little more thoroughly:

> "In order to use the Solaris operating system for perpetual commercial
use, each system running Solaris must be expressly licensed to do so. An
Entitlement Document comprises such license and is delivered to you
either with a new Sun system or from Sun Services as part of your
service agreement."

That paragraph continues:

"Customers who did not receive an Entitlement Document with their new Sun 
system or through their service agreement must register each system running 
Solaris with Sun. Before you install Solaris on additional systems, you must 
first register those systems to receive an additional Entitlement Document."

The way I read this is that if you didn't receive an Entitlement Document 
"either with a new Sun system or from Sun Services as part of your service 
agreement", then you must obtain an Entitlement Document by means of 
registering each system on Sun's Web site. That will give you a license "to use 
the Solaris operating system for perpetual commercial use".

So I still think you're overreacting. (Whether service agreements are priced 
too steeply is another matter; I'm not qualified to comment.)

Since this is an OpenSolaris board, why are you bringing up FreeBSD? You can't 
get official commercial support for FreeBSD any more than you can for Fedora or 
for Arch Linux, since all three are free, non-commercial distributions. So I 
don't see what advantage FreeBSD has for someone who wants to migrate from 
Solaris 10 over OpenSolaris.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Svein Skogen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 24.03.2010 00:57, Alex Viskovatoff wrote:
> Since this is an OpenSolaris board, why are you bringing up FreeBSD? You 
> can't get official commercial support for FreeBSD any more than you can for 
> Fedora or for Arch Linux, since all three are free, non-commercial 
> distributions. So I don't see what advantage FreeBSD has for someone who 
> wants to migrate from Solaris 10 over OpenSolaris.

Maybe because FreeBSD doesn't require a support agreement for security
patches. Nor does any of those Linux distributions you mentioned. Or for
that matter Windows.

This "you will no longer receive security updates" bit is what's
bothering people. And it sends out all the "right" (for someone)
messages: "You're either a $1M/year contract corporate customer, or
you're of no interest to us". If that's the message Oracle wants to get
across, they're doing things the correct way. If not, they _NEED_ to
wake up and doe something that does _NOT_ stink of that arrogant attitude.

//Svein

- -- 
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   X|2020 Skedsmokorset | sv...@jernhuset.no
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Campaign|stillbilde.net | PGP Key:  0x22D494A4
+---+---
|msn messenger: | Mobile Phone: +47 907 03 575
|sv...@jernhuset.no | RIPE handle:SS16503-RIPE
- +---+---
 If you really are in a hurry, mail me at
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 This mailbox goes directly to my cellphone and is checked
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Wed, 2010-03-24 at 01:48 +0100, Svein Skogen wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 24.03.2010 00:57, Alex Viskovatoff wrote:
> > Since this is an OpenSolaris board, why are you bringing up FreeBSD? You 
> > can't get official commercial support for FreeBSD any more than you can for 
> > Fedora or for Arch Linux, since all three are free, non-commercial 
> > distributions. So I don't see what advantage FreeBSD has for someone who 
> > wants to migrate from Solaris 10 over OpenSolaris.
> 
> Maybe because FreeBSD doesn't require a support agreement for security
> patches. Nor does any of those Linux distributions you mentioned. Or for
> that matter Windows.
> 
> This "you will no longer receive security updates" bit is what's
> bothering people. And it sends out all the "right" (for someone)
> messages: "You're either a $1M/year contract corporate customer, or
> you're of no interest to us". If that's the message Oracle wants to get
> across, they're doing things the correct way. If not, they _NEED_ to
> wake up and doe something that does _NOT_ stink of that arrogant attitude.
> 
> //Svein

Precisely.  Thank you for putting it so succinctly.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alex Viskovatoff]

Hi Ken,

Here's a post by your Doppelgänger:

http://wikis.sun.com/display/SunSolve/How+Entitlement+Works?focusedCommentId=199106721#comment-199106721

> I can't seem to purchase a support contract. The only page that even lists 
> the ability to purchase it is broken (see dpfloyd's comment), and I have not 
> receved a call back from Oracle/Sun sales in nearly a week (and that was 
> after getting bounced through 6 different people to a support person who at 
> least knew to forward my info to a Sun-related salesperson, or so they said). 
> Additionally, if you click the "How to Purchase a Contract" it provides no 
> actual info on how to do that, and the link it has to "Learn More" takes you 
> into an infinite loop of "click here, now click here, now click here - oh, 
> wait, I'm back where I started" when you try to find out about Sun Solaris 
> support.

> I hope I'm wrong about what's happening, but I can't say that any of this 
> gives me the warm fuzzies. I'd say that if I had control over the platform 
> I'd migrate those systems off of Solaris to another OS, but I'm guessing 
> that's exactly what Oracle wants...

> Can SOMEONE at Oracle/Sun please tell me how to purchase a support contract 
> to download OS patches? If not, can someone from Oracle/Sun officially tell 
> me to bugger off so I can tell my boss that we're never going to be able to 
> update those servers again and we can start planning on how we're going to 
> get around that issue?

One more example of the startling brilliance of corporate America.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alex Viskovatoff]

And the forum's are now apparently now programmed to censor comments, although 
they don't even have basic functionality like displaying boldface. "I can" and 
"bugger" got turned into asterisks.

Brilliant.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Richard L. Hamilton]

> And the forum's are now apparently now programmed to
> censor comments, although they don't even have basic
> functionality like displaying boldface. "I can" and
> "bu_gg_er" got turned into asterisks.
> 
> Brilliant.

That's not new, it's been censoring letter sequences that _might_
correspond to offensive words (in one language or another) long
before Oracle came into the picture.

There's no lack of things to criticize.  But if you want to be taken
seriously, please don't drag in things that aren't new or relevant.

For example: I think they actually lose money on not having low-end
support.  It's not as if most folks willing to pay $200/year for patch
access would now be willing to pay $1000; rather, they'd move on to
something else.  And the added cost per user of providing low-end
support (i.e. just sunsolve access) has got to be way less than $200,
probably on the order of $10 or so.  Profit is profit, even if it's not
in chunks of a few hundred thousand at a time.  And at least a few
of today's low end users are either low end users at home and high
end users at work, or will become future high end users at work
some day if they're not alienated.
-- 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Haulyn Jason]

On 2010年03月24日 12:40, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:

And the forum's are now apparently now programmed to
censor comments, although they don't even have basic
functionality like displaying boldface. "I can" and
"bu_gg_er" got turned into asterisks.

Brilliant.
 

That's not new, it's been censoring letter sequences that _might_
correspond to offensive words (in one language or another) long
before Oracle came into the picture.

There's no lack of things to criticize.  But if you want to be taken
seriously, please don't drag in things that aren't new or relevant.

For example: I think they actually lose money on not having low-end
support.  It's not as if most folks willing to pay $200/year for patch
access would now be willing to pay $1000; rather, they'd move on to
something else.  And the added cost per user of providing low-end
support (i.e. just sunsolve access) has got to be way less than $200,
probably on the order of $10 or so.  Profit is profit, even if it's not
in chunks of a few hundred thousand at a time.  And at least a few
of today's low end users are either low end users at home and high
end users at work, or will become future high end users at work
some day if they're not alienated.
   


Many things changed, we must face to these, but, can anybody tell me, 
how can we still believe oracle will keep opensolaris as now? Who can 
make sure opensolaris will not change it's own way?


is it the time to migrate from sun(now as oracle/sun) productions to 
linux, although I do not want to.


--
Thanks!

VVThumb Microproduction

Location:room 807,QiLuRuanJianDaSha Qilu Software Park
 No. 1 Shunhua Rd High-Tech Development Zone
 Jinan, China 250101
Website: http://www.haulynjason.net
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Erik Trimble]

Haulyn Jason wrote:
 
Many things changed, we must face to these, but, can anybody tell me, 
how can we still believe oracle will keep opensolaris as now? Who can 
make sure opensolaris will not change it's own way?


is it the time to migrate from sun(now as oracle/sun) productions to 
linux, although I do not want to.


Frankly, while I'm not terribly happy with some of the things being 
slowly dribbled out (and, less so in the manner that they're happening), 
I think it's far too early to make such decisions now.


It's barely a month after the formal close of the merger. As someone 
from the inside's experience, there's still a huge amount of work to be 
done as to integrating Sun into Oracle, which include a massive amount 
of education on both sides as to how things both did and might work in 
the future. While I'm sure that Oracle had it's plan for what it was 
going to do with Sun after the acquisition, there's an old saying in the 
military:  No Plan Survives Contact with the Enemy.   I'm /very/ certain 
that whatever plan Oracle came in with, it's going to undergo (possibly 
radical) change now that the merger is actually finalized.


Go ahead and take what information they're giving you for now, and make 
sure you give our Sales Reps your feedback, both good and bad.  That's 
how the /real/ decisions are going to be made.  I think there is a 
strong possibility that there will be *several* changes in direction and 
policies over the coming months, as Oracle figures out what they're 
really doing with Sun; part of that process is Oracle figuring out how 
their perceived notions fit with the reality of both the marketplace and 
Sun's existing customer base.


Bottom line:  it's very premature to bail right now.  That's a huge 
thing to do, given that what is said today may not be the reality 
tomorrow. I'm not saying sit on your hands and do nothing, but certainly 
jumping ship at the first sign of trouble is equally foolish.



[Note:   I just work here at Oracle nowadays, and I'm certainly not 
privy to anything that might be going on, policy-wise]


--
Erik Trimble
Java System Support
Mailstop:  usca22-123
Phone:  x17195
Santa Clara, CA

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Sean Sprague]

Erik,

Bottom line:  it's very premature to bail right now.  That's a huge 
thing to do, given that what is said today may not be the reality 
tomorrow. I'm not saying sit on your hands and do nothing, but 
certainly jumping ship at the first sign of trouble is equally foolish.


What you say is absolutely correct; and OpenSolaris users should read it 
at face value. Oracle now has at its command the best set of 
developers/sustainers/supporters that exist, IMO; and unless Oracle is 
infinitely short-sighted, then OpenSolaris will and must have a future. 
Ergo, customers - don't jump ship as a knee-jerk reaction to the changes 
currently in place after what all is just a corporate purchase (and thus 
as Erik suggests, a "bedding in" period must implicitly take place) - 
they happen regularly.


If Oracle does kill off OpenSolaris over time, then it will be a grave 
mistake; and bring them back heavily towards the "closed shop" method of 
product availability; which we all wish to avoid; and for which Mink has 
canvassed strongly (and rightly (and successfully)) against for a long time.


As with everything, ICBWT... Sean.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Svein Skogen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 24.03.2010 11:13, Erik Trimble wrote:
> Haulyn Jason wrote:
>>  
>> Many things changed, we must face to these, but, can anybody tell me,
>> how can we still believe oracle will keep opensolaris as now? Who can
>> make sure opensolaris will not change it's own way?
>>
>> is it the time to migrate from sun(now as oracle/sun) productions to
>> linux, although I do not want to.
>>
> Frankly, while I'm not terribly happy with some of the things being
> slowly dribbled out (and, less so in the manner that they're happening),
> I think it's far too early to make such decisions now.
> 
> It's barely a month after the formal close of the merger. As someone
> from the inside's experience, there's still a huge amount of work to be
> done as to integrating Sun into Oracle, which include a massive amount
> of education on both sides as to how things both did and might work in
> the future. While I'm sure that Oracle had it's plan for what it was
> going to do with Sun after the acquisition, there's an old saying in the
> military:  No Plan Survives Contact with the Enemy.   I'm /very/ certain
> that whatever plan Oracle came in with, it's going to undergo (possibly
> radical) change now that the merger is actually finalized.
> 
> Go ahead and take what information they're giving you for now, and make
> sure you give our Sales Reps your feedback, both good and bad.  That's
> how the /real/ decisions are going to be made.  I think there is a
> strong possibility that there will be *several* changes in direction and
> policies over the coming months, as Oracle figures out what they're
> really doing with Sun; part of that process is Oracle figuring out how
> their perceived notions fit with the reality of both the marketplace and
> Sun's existing customer base.
> 
> Bottom line:  it's very premature to bail right now.  That's a huge
> thing to do, given that what is said today may not be the reality
> tomorrow. I'm not saying sit on your hands and do nothing, but certainly
> jumping ship at the first sign of trouble is equally foolish.
> 
> 
> [Note:   I just work here at Oracle nowadays, and I'm certainly not
> privy to anything that might be going on, policy-wise]

I agree that jumping ship FROM a large (Open)Solaris installation is
premature. However, I think you can see how "jumping aboard"
(Open)Solaris right now (From FreeBSD that has ZFS as well) doesn't look
tempting with all this ... confusion  raging around?

//Svein

- -- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Joerg Schilling]

Sean Sprague  wrote:

> What you say is absolutely correct; and OpenSolaris users should read it 
> at face value. Oracle now has at its command the best set of 
> developers/sustainers/supporters that exist, IMO; and unless Oracle is 
> infinitely short-sighted, then OpenSolaris will and must have a future. 

And please let me also note that Solaris 10 is a product first published in 
January 2005 which is nearly 6 months before OpenSolaris was made available to
the community. Solaris 10 is not a product of the OpenSolaris community. 
Oracle may do whatever they like with Solaris 10 as long as they don't affect 
OpenSolaris.

Regarding Solaris 10: Oracle may be interested in revenues and as changes in 
the legal situation for Solaris 10 may affect business, it may be that specific 
decision for Solaris 10 are unwise.

Jörg

-- 
 EMail:jo...@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
   joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: 
http://schily.blogspot.com/
 URL:  http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.

Why are you guys so quiet?
-- 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alan Coopersmith]

Mike DeMarco wrote:
> I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.
> 
> Why are you guys so quiet?

Because most of the Sun/Oracle people here are engineers and have
absolutely no idea what's happening in the world of issuing licenses
and selling support contracts - at Sun, there was no way to know what
all the other 30,000 employees were up to - now at Oracle, add in
another 80,000 and it's even more overwhelmingly impossible, especially
as we're just barely starting to learn how to find information on
Oracle's network.

-- 
-Alan Coopersmith-alan.coopersm...@oracle.com
 Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Sean Sprague]

Mike,


I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.

Why are you guys so quiet?
   


Aside to AlanC's (always) measured response, I suspect an implicit 
gagging order might be present.


Regards... Sean.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Casper . Dik]

>Mike,
>
>> I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.
>>
>> Why are you guys so quiet?
>>
>
>Aside to AlanC's (always) measured response, I suspect an implicit 
>gagging order might be present.

This is just too funny.

Casper

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mark R. Bowyer]

On Wed, 2010-03-24 at 15:44 +0100, casper@sun.com wrote:
> >Mike,
> >
> >> I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.
> >>
> >> Why are you guys so quiet?
> >>
> >
> >Aside to AlanC's (always) measured response, I suspect an implicit 
> >gagging order might be present.
> 
> This is just too funny.
> 
> Casper

Not just me then ;O)

Ta,
-- 
|o o  Software Support Engineering,
 /v\ark R. Bowyer.SPARC House, Guillemont Park,
 `-'  Minley Rd, Blackwater,
  Tel: +44 (0)1252 420691 Camberley, SURREY, GU17 9QG
  Fax: +44 (0)1252 421658 United Kingdom__|

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Sean Sprague]

Mark,


On Wed, 2010-03-24 at 15:44 +0100, casper@sun.com wrote:
   

Mike,

   

I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.

Why are you guys so quiet?

 

Aside to AlanC's (always) measured response, I suspect an implicit
gagging order might be present.
   

This is just too funny.

Casper
 

Not just me then ;O)
   


It is of course an OpenGaggingOrder; natch ;-)

... Sean.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Henry Pepper]

This being funny how?

I would guess that some of the people on this list are using the
OpenSolaris as a testbed for Solaris Next, to prospect options for
their coming solutions for their commercial products.
For some the possibility that only Sun HW is supported in the
commercial product might be a rather import part of the balance sheet.
And increase in support prices doesn't exactly help if you are an isv
using Solaris.
Some of the entries here might seem a bit theatrical, even so the more
serious entries paint a bleak picture.
Combine those informations with what seems to be going on in the
Oracle DB arena, where there seems to be some increase in license
efforts, well you've got a good stew of fud.

So funny to some, very frustrating to some in the other end.

But we will wait and see, hopefully the Wall Street page was the real deal.

  Have a nice day

   Henry

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:44 PM,   wrote:
>
>>Mike,
>>
>>> I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.
>>>
>>> Why are you guys so quiet?
>>>
>>
>>Aside to AlanC's (always) measured response, I suspect an implicit
>>gagging order might be present.
>
> This is just too funny.
>
> Casper
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Will Fiveash]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 07:22:45AM -0700, Alan Coopersmith wrote:
> Mike DeMarco wrote:
> > I do not notice anyone from Sun/Oracle making any comment on this thread.
> > 
> > Why are you guys so quiet?
> 
> Because most of the Sun/Oracle people here are engineers and have
> absolutely no idea what's happening in the world of issuing licenses
> and selling support contracts - at Sun, there was no way to know what
> all the other 30,000 employees were up to - now at Oracle, add in
> another 80,000 and it's even more overwhelmingly impossible, especially
> as we're just barely starting to learn how to find information on
> Oracle's network.

I totally agree with the above.

(now back to resubscribing to all my mail lists with my new address.)
-- 
Will Fiveash
Oracle
http://opensolaris.org/os/project/kerberos/
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Wed, 2010-03-24 at 03:13 -0700, Erik Trimble wrote:
> Haulyn Jason wrote:
> >  
> > Many things changed, we must face to these, but, can anybody tell me, 
> > how can we still believe oracle will keep opensolaris as now? Who can 
> > make sure opensolaris will not change it's own way?
> >
> > is it the time to migrate from sun(now as oracle/sun) productions to 
> > linux, although I do not want to.
> >
> Frankly, while I'm not terribly happy with some of the things being 
> slowly dribbled out (and, less so in the manner that they're happening), 
> I think it's far too early to make such decisions now.
> 
> It's barely a month after the formal close of the merger. As someone 
> from the inside's experience, there's still a huge amount of work to be 
> done as to integrating Sun into Oracle, which include a massive amount 
> of education on both sides as to how things both did and might work in 
> the future. While I'm sure that Oracle had it's plan for what it was 
> going to do with Sun after the acquisition, there's an old saying in the 
> military:  No Plan Survives Contact with the Enemy.   I'm /very/ certain 
> that whatever plan Oracle came in with, it's going to undergo (possibly 
> radical) change now that the merger is actually finalized.
> 
> Go ahead and take what information they're giving you for now, and make 
> sure you give our Sales Reps your feedback, both good and bad.  That's 
> how the /real/ decisions are going to be made.  I think there is a 
> strong possibility that there will be *several* changes in direction and 
> policies over the coming months, as Oracle figures out what they're 
> really doing with Sun; part of that process is Oracle figuring out how 
> their perceived notions fit with the reality of both the marketplace and 
> Sun's existing customer base.
> 
> Bottom line:  it's very premature to bail right now.  That's a huge 
> thing to do, given that what is said today may not be the reality 
> tomorrow. I'm not saying sit on your hands and do nothing, but certainly 
> jumping ship at the first sign of trouble is equally foolish.


I certainly wouldn't call this "the first sign of trouble".  Moreover, I
just found this from OGB Minutes of Feb. 23rd:

"Q - PT - What about support on third-party hardware?

A - DR - At this point Oracle is very focused on places where they can
make revenue and margin.  Unfortunately for us, we have not seen a good
uptake on those standalone subscriptions.  Has seen more emails on the
topic than the total number of systems sold.  Hard to make a case.  At
this point, there are no plans to support non-Sun systems.  We will
continue to honor existing contracts for the term of that contract.
Over time, we hope to move folks over to Sun hardware.

Q - PT - What about regular Solaris?

A - DR - Same answer as above.

Q - PT - Will the ability to download and run it without support
continue?

A - DR - Look at the licenses carefully.  Production deployments will
require a support agreement which is sold on Sun systems only."

Link to full text here:




As you were there, it would have been much appreciated if you'd have
confirmed the question of no support for either OpenSolaris nor Solaris
10 on non Sun Hardware. 

I am still waiting to hear back on this question from two different
Oracle parties on the matter since last Monday and we're still awaiting
"investigation" on this page:




But I guess at this juncture we can now conclude that we've officially
been screwed, blued, and tattooed.  I expected as much from Oracle but
rather than overreacting thought I'd invest the requisite effort to get
details from the powers that be.


-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Marion Hakanson]

kgund...@teamcool.net said:
> . . .
> A - DR - At this point Oracle is very focused on places where they can make
> revenue and margin.  Unfortunately for us, we have not seen a good uptake on
> those standalone subscriptions.  Has seen more emails on the topic than the
> total number of systems sold.  Hard to make a case.  At this point, there are
> no plans to support non-Sun systems.  We will continue to honor existing
> contracts for the term of that contract. Over time, we hope to move folks
> over to Sun hardware. 
. . . .

As are others, I've also been trying to find answers.  Our organization
is in the education/research area, and while we do keep a few critical
infrastructure systems on the traditional Sun Spectrum hardware+software
service contracts, the bulk of the machines, mostly Sun x64 servers,
rely on their hardware warranties and on the ('til now) free availability
of security patches.

We do have pricing requests in to our Oracle representative for access to
patches on these formerly free systems.  I see that Oracle Linux has a
"Network Support" level in their price list, at around $119/year.  This
is similar in price to RedHat Enterprise Linux "updates-only" support level.

The Education price for RH EL Server update subscriptions is $60/year per
server, and I told our Oracle rep that this is the price that Solaris needs
to compete with in order to get our business.  We get Windows Server licenses
for an $80 one-time cost (Education, remember), with free updates for the
life of the OS, so that's the other competition that Oracle Solaris has
in our little market.

We've been buying Sun x64 servers for the past four years primarily due
to the incredible Education promotional pricing that Sun used to have.
This brought Sun hardware to at or below Dell's Education pricing on
similar equipment, Dell being our other main source of affordable
and reliable systems.

So, unless there becomes available an entry-level Solaris subscription,
I expect that our little group will go from 30+ Solaris systems down to
maybe 5 or 6 of those critical infrastructure systems.  When the numbers
get that small, it's hard to justify sticking with Solaris.  And that's
difficult for me to contemplate, I've been enjoying Solaris on x86 since
sometime in 1994.

Good luck everyone,

Marion


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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Dave Koelmeyer]

There is more information here:

http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or_Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Richard L. Hamilton]

> There is more information here:
> 
> http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or
> _Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234

Presuming it to be accurate, there are a couple of considerations
that approach misses:

* some of today's home/educational/small business have influence
over tomorrow's enterprise IT budgets.  Indeed, some people are
concurrently in both roles, and those are probably among the more
knowledgeable.

* while there's no profit in committing oneself to support unpaying users,
they're still good for one (other) thing (assuming they have a way to provide 
it):
feedback/bug reports.  Every time some nobody finds and reports a bug
before a paying customer does, you don't look like an idiot in front of the
folks that pay the bills.
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Svein Skogen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 26.03.2010 12:14, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
>> There is more information here:
>>
>> http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or
>> _Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234
> 
> Presuming it to be accurate, there are a couple of considerations
> that approach misses:
> 
> * some of today's home/educational/small business have influence
> over tomorrow's enterprise IT budgets.  Indeed, some people are
> concurrently in both roles, and those are probably among the more
> knowledgeable.
> 
> * while there's no profit in committing oneself to support unpaying users,
> they're still good for one (other) thing (assuming they have a way to provide 
> it):
> feedback/bug reports.  Every time some nobody finds and reports a bug
> before a paying customer does, you don't look like an idiot in front of the
> folks that pay the bills.

There's also the point that some of those "home setups" could very well
be considered display-cases for larger, commercial, setups. Having
people display (Open)Solaris as a rock solid, high performance, solution
to the problem, could very well be considered some relatively cheap
marketing.

Consider the following two alternatives:

- -Force all users of Solaris to be commercial customers, and thereby
forcing quite a lot of those home setups over to Linux, FreeBSD, or
actually Windows (windows has no service-agreement requirement for
patches). They display those setups as "this works".

- -Allow these small setups to run on fully patched (Open)Solaris for
their needs. Without a yearly fee. Then pay some glossy advertising
bureau to tell about how well the non-displayed solution works.

When reading those alternatives, consider how much technical people
trust advertising.

//Svein

- -- 
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- +---+---
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Paul Griffith]

On Thu, 2010-03-25 at 21:10 -0700, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:
> There is more information here:
> 
> http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or_Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234


...snip

Oracle (ORCL) has adopted what amounts to an "all or nothing" hardware
support policy, according to a document the vendor has posted on its Web
site.

The policy, which went into effect March 16, states that "when acquiring
technical support, all hardware systems must be supported (e.g., Oracle
Premier Support for Systems or Oracle Premier Support for Operating
Systems) or unsupported."

It includes all systems running Solaris version 10.9 or later, those
running Enterprise Linux and Oracle VM, as well as "all hardware systems
for which you have applied services received under a technical support
contract for another hardware system (including sharing of updates,
patches, fixes, security alerts, work-arounds,
configuration/installation assistance or parts)."
snip

Am I  missing something here, it seems like Oracle is pushing a unified
support policy, it applies to Solaris, Linux and Oracle VM. This seems
quite normal for a large company. The main issue is how do Oracle
address the SMB marketplace, if they consider it a marketplace worthy of
their time and effort.

It will take 12-18 months before we see the full outcome of the Oracle
takeover of Sun. Solaris is one of the crown jewels of the Sun takeover,
slowly killing Solaris would be foolish unless their intention is to
move the Solaris DB users to Enterprise Linux. 

I don't see Oracle putting their OS future into the hands of Redhat. As
Redhat continues to grow it will start to take business away from Oracle
and that is when Oracle will clearly need to own it's own OS.

Just my $.02!

Regards,
Paul



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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Calum Benson]

On 24 Mar 2010, at 14:22, Alan Coopersmith wrote:

> add in another 80,000 and it's even more overwhelmingly impossible, especially
> as we're just barely starting to learn how to find information on
> Oracle's network.

Not to mention that there are still large parts of Sun outside the US that 
haven't even legally integrated with Oracle so far (e.g. those of us in 
Ireland). So a lot of Sun folk who normally post here don't even have full 
access to that Oracle network yet.

Cheeri,
Calum.

-- 
CALUM BENSON, Interaction Designer Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.ben...@sun.comOpenSolaris Desktop Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 04:14 -0700, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> > There is more information here:
> > 
> > http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or
> > _Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234
> 
> Presuming it to be accurate, there are a couple of considerations
> that approach misses:
> 
> * some of today's home/educational/small business have influence
> over tomorrow's enterprise IT budgets.  Indeed, some people are
> concurrently in both roles, and those are probably among the more
> knowledgeable.

No doubt.  And they often turn up via contacts that are least expected.
Bridges once burned

> * while there's no profit in committing oneself to support unpaying users,
> they're still good for one (other) thing (assuming they have a way to provide 
> it):
> feedback/bug reports.  Every time some nobody finds and reports a bug
> before a paying customer does, you don't look like an idiot in front of the
> folks that pay the bills.

Smart companies do not define "profitable" _solely_ in terms of dollars.
Not everything can be quantified, e.g. the value of the goodwill you
create.  Or don't.  Sun was on the path to building credible goodwill in
the Open Source world these past few years.  Oracle, in less than two
months has destroyed it.  

The real impetus behind this is pure arrogance.  Nobody w/o a few
million in their pocket matters to Larry.  But then he's also building
up one heck of a karmic debt and sooner or later the universe will
collect.  Not that that provides much consolation for the abused.

-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 12:28 +0100, Svein Skogen wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 26.03.2010 12:14, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> >> There is more information here:
> >>
> >> http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or
> >> _Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234
> > 
> > Presuming it to be accurate, there are a couple of considerations
> > that approach misses:
> > 
> > * some of today's home/educational/small business have influence
> > over tomorrow's enterprise IT budgets.  Indeed, some people are
> > concurrently in both roles, and those are probably among the more
> > knowledgeable.
> > 
> > * while there's no profit in committing oneself to support unpaying users,
> > they're still good for one (other) thing (assuming they have a way to 
> > provide it):
> > feedback/bug reports.  Every time some nobody finds and reports a bug
> > before a paying customer does, you don't look like an idiot in front of the
> > folks that pay the bills.
> 
> There's also the point that some of those "home setups" could very well
> be considered display-cases for larger, commercial, setups. Having
> people display (Open)Solaris as a rock solid, high performance, solution
> to the problem, could very well be considered some relatively cheap
> marketing.
> 
> Consider the following two alternatives:
> 
> - -Force all users of Solaris to be commercial customers, and thereby
> forcing quite a lot of those home setups over to Linux, FreeBSD, or
> actually Windows (windows has no service-agreement requirement for
> patches). They display those setups as "this works".
> 
> - -Allow these small setups to run on fully patched (Open)Solaris for
> their needs. Without a yearly fee. Then pay some glossy advertising
> bureau to tell about how well the non-displayed solution works.
> 
> When reading those alternatives, consider how much technical people
> trust advertising.

Thus my comments pertaining to goodwill.  I'll trust a good buddy over a
marketroid any day.  And they me.  A few of whom influence and/or are
responsible for decisions at companies Sun was courting.  I was the one
who was making Sun's case in the first place but decisions were put on
hold pending the outcome of Sun's financial woes.  Subsequently my
message has, in the words of Madea, been; "Run!! Run like hell".  

Then there are others who've been burned by Oracle in the past and
ported their rdbms needs to offerings such as MySQL, PostgreSQL, and
DB2.  In a former life I was on sysadmin side of porting hundreds of big
iron boxes to Informix (before IBM bought them). Those memories stick
and I know that there are a lot of big companies out there that to this
day refuse to even let an Oracle rep through the door.

I suspect IBM and HP are about to have some new customers. The irony
here being that Oracle is so arrogant they couldn't give a damn. But we
digress.  

-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Giovanni Tirloni]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Ken Gunderson wrote:

>
> On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 04:14 -0700, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> > > There is more information here:
> > >
> > > http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or
> > > _Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234
> >
> > Presuming it to be accurate, there are a couple of considerations
> > that approach misses:
> >
> > * some of today's home/educational/small business have influence
> > over tomorrow's enterprise IT budgets.  Indeed, some people are
> > concurrently in both roles, and those are probably among the more
> > knowledgeable.
>
> No doubt.  And they often turn up via contacts that are least expected.
> Bridges once burned
>

It's Google's "Don't be evil" turned upsite down. I agree it will hurt them
more than they expect.


>
> > * while there's no profit in committing oneself to support unpaying
> users,
> > they're still good for one (other) thing (assuming they have a way to
> provide it):
> > feedback/bug reports.  Every time some nobody finds and reports a bug
> > before a paying customer does, you don't look like an idiot in front of
> the
> > folks that pay the bills.
>
> Smart companies do not define "profitable" _solely_ in terms of dollars.
> Not everything can be quantified, e.g. the value of the goodwill you
> create.  Or don't.  Sun was on the path to building credible goodwill in
> the Open Source world these past few years.  Oracle, in less than two
> months has destroyed it.
>
> The real impetus behind this is pure arrogance.  Nobody w/o a few
> million in their pocket matters to Larry.  But then he's also building
> up one heck of a karmic debt and sooner or later the universe will
> collect.  Not that that provides much consolation for the abused.
>

Although I'm more than unsatisfied with Oracle's actions (or lack of) I'll
play the devil's advocate here.

He just spent a huge amount of his shareholders' dollars buying a company
that had great technology but wasn't doing well in the market ($$$). He has
to show immediate results to them and that's why I think Oracle is focusing
its statements on the high-end side of the market and making changes like
the one done to Solaris 10 licensing/support that probably will yield quick
returns.

Oracle's is not a newcommer to the open source world but it's not a Red Hat
either.

Being an outsider I've no idea about this but... does Oracle think Solaris
is competing against AIX & HP-UX or is it Linux/BSD ? That will probably
play some role in how much support they will provide to OpenSolaris.

Personally I'm an open source advocate so any software business model that
is closed will have to try hard to convince me that it's better than all the
community can provide in testing, bug reporting, free marketing, free
support, etc. But if Oracle is exclusively focusing on taking market share
from AIX and HP-UX, perhaps Larry can look at it as a "I have more
developers working on Solaris then you" and disregard the outside
contributions completely.

-- 
Giovanni
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alex Viskovatoff]

Yes, there's nothing necessarily wrong with a unified support policy in itself. 
But Oracle has also adopted the policy of not allowing users the option of 
paying a (significantly lower) fee to get updates without getting support. This 
seem to be bad business, not to mention open hostility to users.

It is a matter of what economists call price discrimination. There is a class 
of users who are willing to pay on the order of $30-100 a year to get 
updates/patches to Solaris, which makes using Solaris a practical possibility 
for them. These users are not willing to pay $1000/year to get service.

On the other hand, the vast majority of customers who are willing to pay 
$1000/year for service don't see it as an option to use an OS unless it comes 
with official support, so they would not forgo such support even if the option 
of obtaining updates/patches without support were made available.

Thus, by not offering the option of updates/patches without support, Oracle is 
making itself lose a class of paying customers, while attending to such 
customers' needs would not significantly affect the revenues from its other 
customers. This is economically irrational, quite apart from the harmful 
effects such a customer-hostile policy  has on the company's image.
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 14:53 -0300, Giovanni Tirloni wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Ken Gunderson 
> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2010-03-26 at 04:14 -0700, Richard L. Hamilton wrote:
> > > There is more information here:
> > >
> > > http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or
> > > _Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234
> >
> > Presuming it to be accurate, there are a couple of
> considerations
> > that approach misses:
> >
> > * some of today's home/educational/small business have
> influence
> > over tomorrow's enterprise IT budgets.  Indeed, some people
> are
> > concurrently in both roles, and those are probably among the
> more
> > knowledgeable.
> 
> 
> No doubt.  And they often turn up via contacts that are least
> expected.
> Bridges once burned
> 
> It's Google's "Don't be evil" turned upsite down. I agree it will hurt
> them more than they expect.
>  
> 
> > * while there's no profit in committing oneself to support
> unpaying users,
> > they're still good for one (other) thing (assuming they have
> a way to provide it):
> > feedback/bug reports.  Every time some nobody finds and
> reports a bug
> > before a paying customer does, you don't look like an idiot
> in front of the
> > folks that pay the bills.
> 
> 
> Smart companies do not define "profitable" _solely_ in terms
> of dollars.
> Not everything can be quantified, e.g. the value of the
> goodwill you
> create.  Or don't.  Sun was on the path to building credible
> goodwill in
> the Open Source world these past few years.  Oracle, in less
> than two
> months has destroyed it.
> 
> The real impetus behind this is pure arrogance.  Nobody w/o a
> few
> million in their pocket matters to Larry.  But then he's also
> building
> up one heck of a karmic debt and sooner or later the universe
> will
> collect.  Not that that provides much consolation for the
> abused.
> 
> Although I'm more than unsatisfied with Oracle's actions (or lack of)
> I'll play the devil's advocate here.
> 
> He just spent a huge amount of his shareholders' dollars buying a
> company that had great technology but wasn't doing well in the market
> ($$$). He has to show immediate results to them and that's why I think
> Oracle is focusing its statements on the high-end side of the market
> and making changes like the one done to Solaris 10 licensing/support
> that probably will yield quick returns.
> 
> Oracle's is not a newcommer to the open source world but it's not a
> Red Hat either. 
> 
> Being an outsider I've no idea about this but... does Oracle think
> Solaris is competing against AIX & HP-UX or is it Linux/BSD ? That
> will probably play some role in how much support they will provide to
> OpenSolaris.

I suspect primarily the former.  Especially IBM, as they have _very_
deep roots with large, large enterprises.  Oracle, via Larry's own
admission, is an IBM wannabe.  

HP shot themselves in the foot big time under the piss poor leadership
of Fiorina, culminating in the Board giving her the ultimatum of
resigning or being fired outright.  Her successor gets it and has been
on path of restoration.  Still, after several years many of those former
customers have deep memories of how badly formerly top notch enterprise
grade service deteriorated to the point of significant negative impact
upon their ability to do business. Hence, they'll be content to sit
where they're at w/o compelling reason to switch.  Transitioning an
enterprise to a new platform provider is a pita, and not undertaken
lightly.  Like I said, the benefits would need to be compelling.

> Personally I'm an open source advocate so any software business model
> that is closed will have to try hard to convince me that it's better
> than all the community can provide in testing, bug reporting, free
> marketing, free support, etc. 

Having familiarity with Linux, *BSD, and HP-UX over the years, and
Open/Solaris more recently, my take is that Open/Solaris IS
technologically superior.  I have no experience with AIX so cannot
comment.

Switching focus to  "testing, bug reporting, free marketing, free
support, etc." then the FOSS side has commercial side beat hands down -
not even a horse race there.

> But if Oracle is exclusively focusing on taking market share from AIX
> and HP-UX, perhaps Larry can look at it as a "I have more developers
> working on Solaris then you" and disregard the outside contributions
> completely.

That would seem to be about the gist of it

-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Svein Skogen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 26.03.2010 19:27, Ken Gunderson wrote:
> Having familiarity with Linux, *BSD, and HP-UX over the years, and
> Open/Solaris more recently, my take is that Open/Solaris IS
> technologically superior.  I have no experience with AIX so cannot
> comment.

Having had experience with all of the above (including what should be
pronounced aches and h-pukes), with a sprinkle of Irix and windows, I
can say that I find Solaris the ... least broken of the non-FreeBSD OS'es.

//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Fredrich Maney]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Svein Skogen  wrote:
> On 26.03.2010 19:27, Ken Gunderson wrote:
>> Having familiarity with Linux, *BSD, and HP-UX over the years, and
>> Open/Solaris more recently, my take is that Open/Solaris IS
>> technologically superior.  I have no experience with AIX so cannot
>> comment.
>
> Having had experience with all of the above (including what should be
> pronounced aches and h-pukes), with a sprinkle of Irix and windows, I
> can say that I find Solaris the ... least broken of the non-FreeBSD OS'es.
>
> //Svein

Having supported Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, *BSD, Linux, Irix, QNX, and
Windows, I can say that I find Solaris to be, hands down, the most
sane, stable, secure and supportable of all of them. I'd say the same
holds true for Sun hardware (particularly SPARC) over the other
vendors as well.

Or at least I would have said that before Oracle bought them. We'll
see how things shake out in the next 6-12 months, but right now it
doesn't look good.

fpsm
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ian Collins]

On 03/26/10 05:10 PM, Dave Koelmeyer wrote:

There is more information here:

http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or_Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234
   


Bringing this back a little closer to topicality, there one feature 
relating to OpenSolaris missing from that (assuming it's accurate) 
policy:  Solaris 10 zones.


I model some client machines under OpenSolaris either as VMs or Solaris 
10 zones, neither of which can can considered "Sun hardware"!


Someone's overlooked the whole visualisation thing.  What's one of 
OpenSolaris's bit selling points? Visualisation.  What's the biggest 
growth sector in the data centre? Visualisation.


--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Bob Palowoda]

> There is more information here:
> 
> http://www.cio.com/article/588163/Oracle_Enacts_all_Or
> _Nothing_Hardware_Support_Policy?taxonomyId=3234

 Is the hardware OEM's that supply the chips, controllers etc supporting 
Oracle's support strategy?

---Bob
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[john kroll]

The hardware components used within a given system would not have to have the 
same policy when the end product machine is used in registry.

This page is © Copyright 2001-2010 helpwithpcs.com
An example of OEM hardware would be: A hardware company that manufactures one 
type of circuit board (such as a motherboard) buys hardware (for example, an 
audio module) from another. The purchaser (motherboard manufacturer) then 
integrates the hardware (audio module) into their own product and puts it out 
to market.

The purchasing manufacturer will usually re-brand the hardware (the audio 
module in our example) under their own name. They also provide the technical 
support and warranty.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[B]

Have these policies already gone into place, because I am still (crossing 
fingers) getting security updates on my Solaris 10 box with no agreement. I 
just got a new one today. Thanks!
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Matthias Pfützner]

Visualisation? In the DataCenter?

I guess, you're talking about "Virtualization", right?

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-

Von: Ian Collins 
Cc: opensolaris-discuss@opensolaris.org

Someone's overlooked the whole visualisation thing.  What's one of 
OpenSolaris's bit selling points? Visualisation.  What's the biggest growth 
sector in the data centre? Visualisation.

--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[john kroll]

I would have to guess no not from the current manufacturer. Maybe possible from 
someone else in the net framework if what your doing is important enough ??
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ian Collins]

On 03/28/10 07:15 AM, Matthias Pfützner wrote:

Visualisation? In the DataCenter?

I guess, you're talking about "Virtualization", right?


Right, trust me to copy and paste a typo!

--
Ian.

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[James Mansion]

Giovanni Tirloni wrote:
Personally I'm an open source advocate so any software business model 
that is closed will have to try hard to convince me that it's better 
than all the community can provide in testing, bug reporting, free 
marketing, free support, etc.
You might be an advocate, but have you tried to make money 'doing open 
source'?  Red Hat makes money essentially by providing a de facto 
standard and having got there first so that third party support got 
there - and its self-fulfilling then.  As consumers, we basically want a 
near monopoly (for ubiquity and standardisation) and an also ran to keep 
the main player honest.


There are a lot of people with big opinions advocating free software, so 
long as someone else pays for it, and takes all the business risk.  
Oracle is a successuful business, and what makes it successful is that 
it has lots of customers who pay, not lots of advocates who think the 
sun shines from you know where.


But if Oracle is exclusively focusing on taking market share from AIX 
and HP-UX, perhaps Larry can look at it as a "I have more developers 
working on Solaris then you" and disregard the outside contributions 
completely.
He has more than Red Hat too, at least in terms of engineers he can 
focus and instruct.  Lets wait and see what he does with it.


James

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Sat, 2010-03-27 at 10:35 -0700, B wrote:
> Have these policies already gone into place, because I am still (crossing 
> fingers) getting security updates on my Solaris 10 box with no agreement. I 
> just got a new one today. Thanks!

I just took another look at it - the download page has been update again
and is a bit clearer than what was initially referenced at link that
started this thread.  Or maybe I'm just less irate of a mode about it
and reading it more clearly.  In any event:

"Please remember, your right to use Solaris acquired as a download is
limited to a trial of 90 days, unless you acquire a service contract for
the downloaded Software."

Non Sun hardware -> no service contract -> no entitlement to use S10
beyond 90 evaluation.

I've been waiting since Monday of last week for call back from two
different Oracle/Sun contacts for confirmation on the no service for non
Sun hardware bit but I'm still waiting and during interim such seems to
have panned out to be the case.

Good luck.

-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[B]

Good luck to us all!
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[bsd]

I almost built my infrastructure on OpenSolaris and Solaris but am glad I 
decided to opt for FreeBSD and OpenBSD instead.

There are way too many problems with OpenSolaris anymore that it wasn't 
reliable.  Now throw in the 90 day evaluation and then buy costly support is 
icing on the cake.
 
It would be funny if Oracle decided to rescind the open binary licenses and 
then OpenSolaris would be left with nothing.

I've used FreeBSD for 10 years and they may miss their release date like the 
did with 8.0 and have a number of release candidates, but I've never 
experienced any problems with an RC like I did with OpenSolaris.  OpenBSD 
releases like a clock.

Anyway, I needed servers and OpenSolaris was built for desktops and laptops.  
For a quality alternative to OpenSolaris, look at switching to FreeBSD and/or 
OpenBSD!  You'll be glad you made the switch!!
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Joerg Schilling]

bsd  wrote:

> I almost built my infrastructure on OpenSolaris and Solaris but am glad I 
> decided to opt for FreeBSD and OpenBSD instead.

Solaris 10 is not "open" and never was. Solaris 10 is from January 2005 and
closed source. OpenSolaris is from Jnue 14th 2005.

Jörg

-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Ken Gunderson]

On Sun, 2010-03-28 at 15:52 -0700, bsd wrote:
> I almost built my infrastructure on OpenSolaris and Solaris but am glad I 
> decided to opt for FreeBSD and OpenBSD instead.
> 
> There are way too many problems with OpenSolaris anymore that it wasn't 
> reliable.  Now throw in the 90 day evaluation and then buy costly support is 
> icing on the cake.
>  
> It would be funny if Oracle decided to rescind the open binary licenses and 
> then OpenSolaris would be left with nothing.
> 
> I've used FreeBSD for 10 years and they may miss their release date like the 
> did with 8.0 and have a number of release candidates, but I've never 
> experienced any problems with an RC like I did with OpenSolaris.  OpenBSD 
> releases like a clock.
> 
> Anyway, I needed servers and OpenSolaris was built for desktops and laptops.  
> For a quality alternative to OpenSolaris, look at switching to FreeBSD and/or 
> OpenBSD!  You'll be glad you made the switch!!

As someone who's used them for a few years longer than that, I can
attest that Open/Solaris can do some pretty cool things that the *BSD's
cannot.  Each has their place. All other things being equal, I'd
probably opt for OBSD at the borders and choose Solaris for app server,
data storage, and such.  

All other things are not, however, and in an unfortunate cruel twist of
fate we can no longer use Solaris w/o having to sell a kidney and
handing the proceeds over to Scary Larry.  Note that I am very
disappointed in recent events and done my fair share of grousing - but
let's not dis Open/Solaris technical merits nor the developers invest
their labors into making them even better just because some asshole now
owns Sun.

-- 
Ken Gunderson 

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Dennis Clarke]

>
> --
> Ken Gunderson 

I will make an effort to have this sort of language and tone blocked and
your email removed permanently.

This is unacceptable.

As someone that recently bought and installed Microsoft Windows Ultimate 7
64-bit edition I would rather look at the cost of a vastly superior
production grade Solaris 10 or Solaris Next as *trivial*.

Quite frankly steps are being made to ensure that the business side of
open source is viable long term. I don't expect you to understand such a
thing but speaking as a businessman I certianly do.

I also know what it is like ot listen to the empty handed demands of the
masses that want everything for free and give *nothing* in return.

Quite franky, on these public mail lists, you will use correct english or
at least acceptable language and tone .. or be gone.

-- 
Dennis Clarke
dcla...@opensolaris.ca  <- Email related to the open source Solaris
dcla...@blastwave.org   <- Email related to open source for Solaris


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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alex Viskovatoff]

> I will make an effort to have this sort of language and tone blocked and
your email removed permanently.

> This is unacceptable.

> speaking as a businessman I certianly [sic] do.

> Quite franky [sic], on these public mail lists, you will use correct english 
> [sic] or
at least acceptable language and tone .. or be gone.

Thank you for making it clear to everybody that in today's world, censorship is 
an essential tool of business.

This kind of language is perfectly normal in free software forums such as 
http://bbs.archlinux.org/ . If you can't deal with the culture of free 
software, maybe it is you who should leave. I'm sure you will feel more 
comfortable at forums.opensolaris.com.
-- 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Paul Gress]

On 03/28/10 10:51 PM, Alex Viskovatoff wrote:

I will make an effort to have this sort of language and tone blocked and
 

your email removed permanently.

   

This is unacceptable.
 
   

speaking as a businessman I certianly [sic] do.
 
   

Quite franky [sic], on these public mail lists, you will use correct english 
[sic] or
 

at least acceptable language and tone .. or be gone.

Thank you for making it clear to everybody that in today's world, censorship is 
an essential tool of business.

This kind of language is perfectly normal in free software forums such as 
http://bbs.archlinux.org/ . If you can't deal with the culture of free 
software, maybe it is you who should leave. I'm sure you will feel more 
comfortable at forums.opensolaris.com.
   


These forums aren't censored for content, just for fowl language, we try 
to keep it civil here.  I agree with Dennis Clarks warning.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Alex Viskovatoff]

> These forums aren't censored for content, just for fowl language, we try to 
> keep it civil here.  I agree with Dennis Clarks warning.

Yes, they are censored for foul language. This is how the post that is 
provoking the outrage appears if you view it in the Forums:

> let's not dis Open/Solaris technical merits nor the developers invest
> their labors into making them even better just because some *** now
> owns Sun.

The fowl-language censorship routines are running correctly. Therefore, those 
of you who are hypersensitive to vernacular English should unsubscribe from 
getting forum posts emailed to you. That will solve your problem.

Either (1) have an automatic filter which censors posts for foul language or 
(2) have the expectation that people making posts will take care to be polite.

Given that we presently have (1), it is perverse to hold to (2). Why should 
people go out of their way to be civil, when they know they will get censored?
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Paul Gress]

On 03/29/10 01:07 AM, Alex Viskovatoff wrote:

These forums aren't censored for content, just for fowl language, we try to 
keep it civil here.  I agree with Dennis Clarks warning.
 

Yes, they are censored for foul language. This is how the post that is 
provoking the outrage appears if you view it in the Forums:

   


Not in the strictest sense.  I saw a warning.



let's not dis Open/Solaris technical merits nor the developers invest
their labors into making them even better just because some *** now
owns Sun.
 

The fowl-language censorship routines are running correctly. Therefore, those 
of you who are hypersensitive to vernacular English should unsubscribe from 
getting forum posts emailed to you. That will solve your problem.

   
I subscribe to this forum for technical discussion.  If I want to 
subscribe to advocacy, I would.  I'm sure the same behavior there will 
get a similar response as here.




Either (1) have an automatic filter which censors posts for foul language or 
(2) have the expectation that people making posts will take care to be polite.

Given that we presently have (1), it is perverse to hold to (2). Why should 
people go out of their way to be civil, when they know they will get censored?
   


There is one lesson I learned in my old age.  If you want to look good 
and learn, surround yourself around the smartest people you know.  I 
come to this forum for the same reason.  I shouldn't have to set 
filtering to block any messages in this forum.  I expect everybody to 
behave intelligent and go with (2).


As far as this thread is concerned, I never spoke previously as I never 
had anything intelligent to add, as Opensolaris is a different animal.  
This thread is about Solaris 10, I'm concerned, but doesn't affect me now.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Dennis Clarke]

>> These forums aren't censored for content, just for fowl language, we try
>> to keep it civil here.  I agree with Dennis Clarks warning.
>
> Yes, they are censored for foul language. This is how the post that is
> provoking the outrage appears if you view it in the Forums:

I have had quite enough of that character ranting in my inbox and in
permanent record in the maillists:

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-March/055032.html

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-March/055033.html

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/opensolaris-discuss/2010-March/055176.html

We must admit, he knows quite a bit about the BSD's out there.

Would be nice if he could be civil. At the moment the traffic on the
OpenSolaris maillists all seem clearly to say "stay away from here".

I'd like to fix that at the very least. That *should* be easy.

Dennis


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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[bsd]

OpenSolaris has some nice technologies, but with FreeBSD you can run zfs.  With 
the 8.0 release you can run vimage which is essentially Solaris Zones, while 
FreeBSD has had jails for years and recently upgraded jails to v2.  Crossbow is 
really the only feature not in FreeBSD that I'd like to have, although I can do 
without.  

It is also interesting that VirtualBox is just as fast on FreeBSD as 
OpenSolaris, although it doesn't consume as much resources like memory and cpu.

I used to use OpenSolaris but too many problems sent me back to BSD.  It might 
work for some, but I'm better off on BSD.
-- 
This message posted from opensolaris.org
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Paul Gress]

On 03/29/10 02:06 AM, bsd wrote:

OpenSolaris has some nice technologies, but with FreeBSD you can run zfs.  With 
the 8.0 release you can run vimage which is essentially Solaris Zones, while 
FreeBSD has had jails for years and recently upgraded jails to v2.  Crossbow is 
really the only feature not in FreeBSD that I'd like to have, although I can do 
without.

It is also interesting that VirtualBox is just as fast on FreeBSD as 
OpenSolaris, although it doesn't consume as much resources like memory and cpu.

I used to use OpenSolaris but too many problems sent me back to BSD.  It might 
work for some, but I'm better off on BSD.
   


For me, my only choices are Solaris 10, Opensolaris, or Windows.  I 
choose Opensolaris.  I run a CAD program that now only currently runs on 
Solaris and Windows.  I have it running on Opensolaris.  For me, 
Opensolaris is pretty stable once you get it running (I'm using the 
development edition).  If I upgrade and it breaks, I just change my boot 
environment (BE) to a previous working BE and all is in order.  That 
feature makes using the development editions livable.


Paul
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Joerg Schilling]

Dennis Clarke  wrote:

> > Ken Gunderson 
>
> I will make an effort to have this sort of language and tone blocked and
> your email removed permanently.
>
> This is unacceptable.
>
> As someone that recently bought and installed Microsoft Windows Ultimate 7
> 64-bit edition I would rather look at the cost of a vastly superior
> production grade Solaris 10 or Solaris Next as *trivial*.

Dennis, we need to be very careful here not to start censorship. Censorship
(as recentliy started by e.g. Debian) is an indication for missing openness
and openness is important for Opensolaris.

I have a real problem with the general tone of his mail and we should only 
point to the tone of his mail.

We in general did have a nice tone on OpenSolaris mailing lists and I don't 
like to see a harsh tone like the one introduced by Ken Gunderson.

Jörg

-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Joerg Schilling]

bsd  wrote:

> OpenSolaris has some nice technologies, but with FreeBSD you can run zfs.

This is an incorrect claim, Opensolaris runs zfs. Please try to avoid 
missleading claims.

Jörg

-- 
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   j...@cs.tu-berlin.de(uni)  
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Dennis Clarke]

> Dennis Clarke  wrote:
>> > Ken Gunderson 
>>
>> I will make an effort to have this sort of language and tone blocked and
>> your email removed permanently.
>>
>> This is unacceptable.
>>
>> As someone that recently bought and installed Microsoft Windows Ultimate
>> 7
>> 64-bit edition I would rather look at the cost of a vastly superior
>> production grade Solaris 10 or Solaris Next as *trivial*.
>
> Dennis, we need to be very careful here not to start censorship.
> Censorship (as recentliy started by e.g. Debian) is an indication
> for missing openness and openness is important for Opensolaris.
>
> I have a real problem with the general tone of his mail and we
> should only point to the tone of his mail.

Tone and choice of words. There seems to be a flurry of bitterness and
issues to be addressed.  But there must be a better way than filling a
maillist with endless rants. Certainly when they move towards blatant
misdirected insults.

> We in general did have a nice tone on OpenSolaris mailing lists and I
> don't like to see a harsh tone like the one introduced
> by Ken Gunderson.
>
> Jörg

As usual, we agree.

-- 
Dennis Clarke
dcla...@opensolaris.ca  <- Email related to the open source Solaris
dcla...@blastwave.org   <- Email related to open source for Solaris


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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Svein Skogen]

On 29.03.2010 11:52, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> bsd  wrote:
> 
>> OpenSolaris has some nice technologies, but with FreeBSD you can run zfs.
> 
> This is an incorrect claim, Opensolaris runs zfs. Please try to avoid 
> missleading claims.

I suppose what he meant was "FreeBSD too has zfs" (but an older version
currently).

But I suppose the issue here is that there are quite a lot of bitterness
from people who _HAD_ a perpetual license for Solaris (issued by Sun),
and now have nothing of the sort, unless they hand over a lot of money
to Oracle, both for hardware, and a service-agreement.

This move makes a certain database corporation seem almost as bad as the
coin-oped antivirus-vendors who operate by the slogan "insert more money".

I can understand that bitterness. I can understand that someone wants to
dub Larry "Darth Ellison" over this. But I agree that some language in
this thread has become ... too heated. Even for someone like me who has
English as a second language, I see that the thread has gotten out of
hand, with personal insults thrown everywhere.

Those who are bitter at Oracle's move, would better remember that the
Sun engineers are as much victims of this as they are, and should not be
crucified over what the suits in "management" has done. Those engineers
have actually done their best to give us the best operating system they
could. While still being in fear of their own jobs (due to a certain
Sith Lord taking over their employer).

So direct your anger towards those who have done both you, and the
engineers harm, not against the other group of victims.

//Svein

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Matthias Pfützner]

You (Svein Skogen) wrote:
> On 29.03.2010 11:52, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > bsd  wrote:
> > 
> >> OpenSolaris has some nice technologies, but with FreeBSD you can run zfs.
> > 
> > This is an incorrect claim, Opensolaris runs zfs. Please try to avoid 
> > missleading claims.
> 
> I suppose what he meant was "FreeBSD too has zfs" (but an older version
> currently).
> 
> But I suppose the issue here is that there are quite a lot of bitterness
> from people who _HAD_ a perpetual license for Solaris (issued by Sun),
> and now have nothing of the sort, unless they hand over a lot of money
> to Oracle, both for hardware, and a service-agreement.
> 
> This move makes a certain database corporation seem almost as bad as the
> coin-oped antivirus-vendors who operate by the slogan "insert more money".
> 
> I can understand that bitterness. I can understand that someone wants to
> dub Larry "Darth Ellison" over this. But I agree that some language in
> this thread has become ... too heated. Even for someone like me who has
> English as a second language, I see that the thread has gotten out of
> hand, with personal insults thrown everywhere.
> 
> Those who are bitter at Oracle's move, would better remember that the
> Sun engineers are as much victims of this as they are, and should not be
> crucified over what the suits in "management" has done. Those engineers
> have actually done their best to give us the best operating system they
> could. While still being in fear of their own jobs (due to a certain
> Sith Lord taking over their employer).
> 
> So direct your anger towards those who have done both you, and the
> engineers harm, not against the other group of victims.
> 
> //Svein

And I can still only repeat:

Nothing is ever build in concrete! Be patient, make yourself be heard (at the
right places, and in decent BUSINESS-oriented language), and have a good cup
of tea!

See also:


http://c0t0d0s0.org/archives/6446-About-Solaris,-Oracle,-support-and-all-the-rest-html

I feel, like I'm in a treadmill, repeating, and repeating the same over and
over again... Solaris is not dead, OpenSolaris is not dead, as much as some
here like to see that that way!

Matthias
-- 
Matthias Pfützner | Tel.: +49 700 PFUETZNER  | Rome wasn't built in a
Lichtenbergstr.73 | mailto:matth...@pfuetzner.de | day ... if it was we
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Joerg Schilling]

Svein Skogen  wrote:

> On 29.03.2010 11:52, Joerg Schilling wrote:
> > bsd  wrote:
> > 
> >> OpenSolaris has some nice technologies, but with FreeBSD you can run zfs.
> > 
> > This is an incorrect claim, Opensolaris runs zfs. Please try to avoid 
> > missleading claims.
>
> I suppose what he meant was "FreeBSD too has zfs" (but an older version
> currently).

This is obvious for many people but it may not be obvious for all on this list.

> But I suppose the issue here is that there are quite a lot of bitterness
> from people who _HAD_ a perpetual license for Solaris (issued by Sun),
> and now have nothing of the sort, unless they hand over a lot of money
> to Oracle, both for hardware, and a service-agreement.

As mentioned several times before:

Solaris 10 is not OpenSolaris and people might be unhappy with changes on 
Solaris 10 but this is not our (OpenSolaris) task.

Jörg

-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Calum Benson]

On 29/03/2010 06:07, Alex Viskovatoff wrote:


Given that we presently have (1), it is perverse to hold to (2). Why should 
people go out of their way to be civil, when they know they will get censored?


We already have (2) as well. It's embodied in the OpenSolaris Community 
Code of Conduct:




Cheeri,
Calum.

--
CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer   Sun Microsystems Ireland
mailto:calum.benson at sun.com OpenSolaris Desktop Team
http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771

Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Fredrich Maney]

The routines may be working properly on the Jive Forum, but they are
not running at all on the email list.

I agree with Paul and Dennis. Keep it civil and professional or go
find someplace else to "participate".

fpsm

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Alex Viskovatoff  wrote:
>> These forums aren't censored for content, just for fowl language, we try to 
>> keep it civil here.  I agree with Dennis Clarks warning.
>
> Yes, they are censored for foul language. This is how the post that is 
> provoking the outrage appears if you view it in the Forums:
>
>> let's not dis Open/Solaris technical merits nor the developers invest
>> their labors into making them even better just because some *** now
>> owns Sun.
>
> The fowl-language censorship routines are running correctly. Therefore, those 
> of you who are hypersensitive to vernacular English should unsubscribe from 
> getting forum posts emailed to you. That will solve your problem.
>
> Either (1) have an automatic filter which censors posts for foul language or 
> (2) have the expectation that people making posts will take care to be polite.
>
> Given that we presently have (1), it is perverse to hold to (2). Why should 
> people go out of their way to be civil, when they know they will get censored?
> --
> This message posted from opensolaris.org
> ___
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>
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[ken mays]

As for this whole thread of discussion, the point of Oracle Solaris 10 being 
non-free seems like a trolling event.

Oracle Solaris 10 10/09 (u8) is currently FREE to download. From a business
point of view, if Oracle really pulled the plug on the downloads - what does 
that matter to us?!? I'd hope home users would download or obtain a copy of 
Solaris 10 before this happen. Whether you go to *BSD or back to Linux is just 
another story. It is nice to have choices. But, this conversation is really not 
appropriate in consideration of the OpenSolaris project. Oracle Solaris 10/Next 
is intended as a 'profitable' and 'marketable' enterprise OS solution - just 
like Windows desktop/server is intended to make a profit for Microsoft. We 
should not let personal interests cloud corporate business reality.

Oracle's Solaris 10 is not an open source operating system or product. Solaris 
10 does not have many of the features of the OpenSolaris binary release(s). You 
can download Solaris 10 10/09 RIGHT NOW. The 90-day license limitation does NOT 
apply right now. Meaning, you don't have to pay to download Solaris 10 10/09 
today. We are crying over spilled milk - yet to be spilled!!!

As popular as Solaris 8 was back in 2000-2009, it is now an unsupported OS 
product and no longer marketed. The same fate came to Solaris 9. For those
of us who need Solaris 10, we have it. So what you were given was a major wake 
up call to get Solaris 10 if you need it and if you REALLY need it then take 
care of your support issues before things change. Really now, it is THAT simple 
to deal with for many of us.

The forum is about OpenSolaris and many of us use it for production purposes 
where it fits. Linux and *BSD are just other OS solutions as is Windows Server 
editions. If the shoe doesn't fit in your home or corporate datacenter 
environment, go buy another shoe that fits. I think it is that easy for many of 
us.

I've mentioned elsewhere that Oracle PUBLICALLY has stated that OpenSolaris
is not something they will kill off - and will support the community efforts 
already underway where it benefits them. They have already launched many 
support roadmaps for legacy products. I don't think Oracle
would put a banner like "Solaris - the #1 Enterprise OS" and not put in the 
smarts to back it up. On the flip side, the COMMUNITY of engineers, 
consultants, and developers are what make OpenSolaris really work outside of 
the brick walls of Oracle. 

You can't FULLY compare an OpenSolaris release in BETA versus *BSD/Linux
as many things are in transition with OpenSolaris. You are not dealing
with a 'finished' enterprise OS product to compare to a boxed set of RHES, 
Windows 7, or *BSD. You can't buy a set of OpenSolaris DVDs at your computer 
store or from a reseller with all the 5000+ software packages that would come 
with a Debian boxed set of DVDs. So, we have apples and oranges in that 
conversation. You are dealing with engineering snapshots and BETA releases of 
'something to come'. Treat it as such - and you'll be much happier in the end.

As for Oracle Solaris 10, it is as free as it was yesterday. Kindly get off 
this cruise ship if you can't handle the motion in the ocean...

All in good fun,

~ Ken Mays


  
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Edward Martinez]

Hi,

I don't understand why at the actual forums of Solaris 10 OS, I did not find 
any complaints about Solaris 10 OS not being free anymore, but here at 
OpenSolaris forums that really pertains  only to OpenSolaris OS  is full of 
complaints about Solaris 10.

I thinks this is a more appropriate place to be heard.
 http://forums.sun.com/category.jspa?categoryID=65
-- 
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Brian Wilson]

So, I'm sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but has anyone asked/ 
answered the question of getting support and patches running Solaris  
10 on ESX on non-Sun hardware?  I've got a semi-ranty email out to my  
Sun reps but haven't heard anything back yet.


Thanks in advance, and again, my apologies if I missed this in the  
archives.

Brian



On Mar 27, 2010, at 12:35 PM, B wrote:

Have these policies already gone into place, because I am still  
(crossing fingers) getting security updates on my Solaris 10 box  
with no agreement. I just got a new one today. Thanks!

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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Mike DeMarco]

Most of us that run OpenSolaris rely on Solaris 10 also. We live our day to day 
on Solaris 10 and OpenSolaris. As far as I am concerned they go hand in hand 
and a major event affecting one of them has ramifications on both. The 
discussions that go on on this list are not 100% OpenSolaris but are a 
collection of like topics that draw like interests. If you do not like a topic 
you can skip over it. I do not understand people that have to get on a thread 
and trash it for being in the wrong place, Why do you not just skip reading 
this thread if you do not agree with it being here. Why can you not just leave 
the thread alone.
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Re: [osol-discuss] Solaris 10 - no longer free

[Brandon Hume]

On Tue, 2010-03-30 at 06:47 -0700, Mike DeMarco wrote:
>  If you do not like a topic you can skip over it. I do not understand people 
> that have to get on a thread and trash it for being in the wrong place, Why 
> do you not just skip reading this thread if you do not agree with it being 
> here. Why can you not just leave the thread alone.

This may come as a bit of a shock, but a large number of us are
subscribed via email.  We get those emails whether we're interested in
the thread or not.

As it happens, I *am* interested in this particular thread, as I suspect
it may be an indicator that Oracle may not play their attitude to OSol
as straight as we'd hope, but I can very much understand others'
annoyance with the non-OSol specific noise.

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