Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-25 Thread Ravi Bellur
Thanks for this reply . -- this was the kind of elucidation that helped me
understand things better. One of the many benefits of Silklist.

On the US election stuff, it vetted to the nation a lot of the gender
discrimination that still exists. There's plenty of discrimination that
persist, though things continue to improve.

I look to Western Europe mainly as the vanguard of human society. The US has
a way to go before we're there. But I blame them for sending all the
religious extremists here some several hundreds of years ago.

And I saw Goody Proctor consorting with the Devil!!! :-)


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-25 Thread Ravi Bellur
Welcome to our western nightmare: men are the eye candy accessories.
http://omg.yahoo.com/news/melissa-rycroft-and-beau-make-red-carpet-debut-at-us-hot-hollywood-party/21664?nc

Sad that the wrong side won (instead of liberating women from superficial
oppression, we just subsumed men to the same thing... that said, the west is
full of single mom's raising the children of passion and looking for stable
men to do this. Nothing wrong with that, but from an evolutionary
perspective, what genes are being progenerated? Maybe that's why India seems
so nutty about controlling (and out of respect for this list, I'll walk away
from the obvious, latin based double entrendre) whom women are with.

That said, on the discovery channel, I'm watching a naked sadhu pull a jeep
with his penis. This is one crazy place -- and I mean that in the best and
worst ways, simultaneously.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-25 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Sat, 25/4/09, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Saturday, 25 April, 2009, 9:25 PM
 Welcome to our western nightmare: men
 are the eye candy accessories.
 http://omg.yahoo.com/news/melissa-rycroft-and-beau-make-red-carpet-debut-at-us-hot-hollywood-party/21664?nc
 
 Sad that the wrong side won (instead of liberating women
 from superficial
 oppression, we just subsumed men to the same thing... that
 said, the west is
 full of single mom's raising the children of passion and
 looking for stable
 men to do this. Nothing wrong with that, but from an
 evolutionary
 perspective, what genes are being progenerated? Maybe
 that's why India seems
 so nutty about controlling (and out of respect for this
 list, I'll walk away
 from the obvious, latin based double entrendre) whom women
 are with.
 
 That said, on the discovery channel, I'm watching a naked
 sadhu pull a jeep
 with his penis. This is one crazy place -- and I mean that
 in the best and
 worst ways, simultaneously.


Oh dear.

Have you really, really nothing else to do on a Saturday evening?


  Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! 
Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-25 Thread Dave Long
But I blame them for sending all the religious extremists here some  
several hundreds of years ago.


They didn't send them -- the Puritans went of their own free will,  
having first been unhappy in england and then having been afraid that  
their children were growing up far too tolerant among the dutch.


Next time I hear a US american moaning that middle eastern societies  
(a) have too much religious influence in politics (b) execute  
criminals barbarically and (c) have silly hangups about how much skin  
a woman may modestly show, I will have to laugh*.


-Dave

* although it would be difficult to top GW outside countries  
shouldn't meddle in Iraq's internal affairs B for sheer lack of  
reflectivity...





Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-24 Thread .
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote:
 I must admit in my time here I am somewhat surprised at the bullshit women
 have to put up with here, and that they seem to put up with it. If they want
 this to end they need to fight back (metaphorically through many channels:
 political, legal, community, self-defense, etc.). It can be done and there
 will be conscientious people who may happen to have a Y chromosome who will
 help, on principle.

Men do support the women in their lives but that support may not
extend to all women in the public sphere. The support also does not
necessarily translate into a women-friendly policy/action in a
public level. I see a difference, as in, she could be self-sufficient,
educated (or less), emancipated (or not), independent, free thinking
individual but her immediate family and friends would be her only
source of support.  While a man who might be protective of women in
his family and want them to be free, etc...  he would hardly feel
guilty while assaulting a female stranger and care less about helping
her or extending the similar freedom he takes for granted and enjoys.


 I'm still trying to comprehend on what basis single women in an apartment
 can be so nefariously dangerous. I don't think I get it (it being the
 specious reason that these landlords believe).

Here, society (at large) views women differently and as far as public
spaces go, the lack of a support system (no 911 , legal and health
support systems or anti-abuse laws) is glaring. She does have it tough
as change is easier imagined than implemented. Partly because in the
last decade some changes have been very rapid and made inroads (even
into rural India)... the influx of foreign channels, aspirational
changes, growth in economy, some legal changes in inheritance laws
(and also those like : not insisting on giving a fathers name to the
child in school, women can retain their last name, single (never
married) women adoption facilities, ...), etc.

The biggest and most visible change was women being allowed to go to
school and University (and hence being  allowed to travel distance to
pursue a career and financial independence), something the earlier
generation of women and her grandmother's generation never got. Hence,
women are *expected* to be grateful for that freedom and yet *taught*
that her final destiny is still marriage (and kids) and creating a
good home.  I doubt if culture or tradition has anything to do with it
as different people interpret the word family differently.

My unscientific analysis is, the pressure just upped for women with
each generation wherein, while there is newer changes, there is no
reduction in the expectations or responsibilities (or housework) she
does. These have increased and the demand for a super woman is even
more. The corresponding change of men handling house work or looking
after babies has not gone up.  While the social stigma for a divorcee
or a widow is less, her responsibilities towards family have not
reduced.  Here, Sita is oft cited as the epitome of a dutiful wife and
yet certain aspects of her life (refusal to prove her virtue
(agnipariksha) and choice of leaving her sons and her husband instead
of walking on fire) are rarely highlighted as virtuous and worthy of
following. The blinded one-track views and
lets-discard-the-unpalatable-bits of the cultural/traditional
brigade that uses mythology/religion to subjugate women is the scary
part.


 I come from a country where
 almost everyone has premarital sex (men AND women), and with mutiple
 partners in serial (sometimes in parallel for the kinky types) over time,
 before they get married. Plenty of dating. And we're prudes compared to the
 Europeans or Aussies. People make their choices of their free will with

Allow me to cite some differences. It may not be directly related and
yet gender is relevant in the sphere of things. While women (in the
US) have individual (sexual) freedom and are taught the same in school
and get a lot of help from a legal perspective in case of abuse, I
still wonder if she has it all !!  Purely from a gender perspective
(sans political agendas), it was strange to see the sexist (my fathers
words) attitude towards Hillary Clinton (would a coloured woman's
laughter have been called a cackle?) or the insistence of portraying
the perfect family (Sarah Palin?) at the helm.  It was strange to see
the higher standards a female leader was held to whilst a common woman
has complete personal freedom. The reverse is true in India where we
have men idolising and (literally) falling at the feet of women
leaders whose personal lives are anything but culturally traditional
as far as the usual definitions go.  This difference is inscrutable.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Zainab Bawa
I had a Muslim friend who was a film journalist. He absolutely detested meat
and was an ardent vegetarian - no love for Biryani - would hide even on days
of Eid and festivals, not wanting to eat meat. I eat vegetarian food because
of health reasons and because of the fact that the meat manufactured poultry
industry is as good as eating hash. This is not to say that vegetables are
not laden with pesticides and GM seeds.
What you eat is both a cultural preference and a personal one.
Vegetarianism, the way it is spoken of in various discourses and practices,
is laden with overtones of morality. I find this problematic.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian
 sur...@hserus.net wrote:
  Forget single. Get the gujjus out of mumbai and you'd probably have a
 better Mumbai than most (no wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat
 - they have a CM they deserve)

 Assuming that you are not trolling, how is this statement of branding
 the whole community any different than branding the Muslim community
 as fomentors of terrorism. The Gujarathi community (like the Parsee
 community) has been an integral part of Mumbai for several years.
 Stripping them out of Mumbai would make it lose it's character (what
 no dandiya ?). Mumbai would not be the same without the
 entrepreneurial spirit of the Gujarathi.

  Mahatma Gandhi is a long forgotten concept there. Greed, hypocrisy, crude
 hatred etc etc - the entire state of Gujarat is a danger to modern India, as
 its people's minds have been indoctrinated to religious hatred.

 The same can be said of the Congress as well. MG is only remembered
 when naming roads in any city or putting up statues.

 -- Vinayak
 (Who loves Gujarathi food - undhiyu, thepla etc and realizes his
 friends are muslim only due to awesome meat-based cuisine they have -
 Find me one person who doesn't love biryani :)




-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Zainab Bawa
The other issue is also that I am made to feel apologetic about choosing to
eat meat. That makes me feel worse!

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:

 It is problematic when vegetarianism is imposed on my by force, in both
 subtle and not-so-subtle ways. That I am viewed as lowly, meat eating
 person, simply because some cultures believe that it is more moral and
 superior to eat vegetarian food. There are personal choices, social choices,
 ecological choices for eating vegetables over meat. That is fine as long as
 it is not imposed on me. There is a fundamental issue of freedom at stake
 here.


 On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Pranesh Prakash 
 the.solips...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 15:06, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  What you eat is both a cultural preference and a personal one.
  Vegetarianism, the way it is spoken of in various discourses and
 practices,
  is laden with overtones of morality. I find this problematic.

 What is a healthy choice for one might be an ecological choice for
 another, and an ethical or moral choice for yet another.  All these
 individual/social choices are reflected in the discourses around
 vegetarianism.  (It's not as though ecological horrors are not
 highlighted to make room for the morality play that many construct out
 of vegetarianism.)  Why is that problematic?




 --
 Zainab Bawa
 Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

 Between Places ...
 http://zainab.freecrow.org




-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Zainab Bawa

 I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of batchmates from MBA and
 we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I was a meat eater
 (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly had people over
 drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch noise levels.


With a name like Kiran Karthikeyan, you are less likely to be asked whether
you are meat eating or not. When I would phone prospective landlords for
renting apartments in Jayanagar, I'd say I was Mrs. Chandrakiran instead
of taking my name and being slammed on the phone for being a meat eater
(which I am largely not).



 I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you are a part of is
 causing trouble, you will face social repression.


That is an extremely convenient way of putting things. Just because a
government and a media machinery say that attacks are caused by Muslims
makes me a prospective trouble maker too. There is no effort made to
investigate why after every attack, it is immediately said that some ---
toiba or --- jamaati group has admitted to the attacks. Could these not be
framing tactics?

And it is interesting to note that an educated person like yourself would
not take the trouble to interact and move beyond the stereotypes. You would
just say, ah, if the sub-community you are a part of is causing trouble,
you will face social repression. Now that definitely makes me want to keep
you out of my property.



And as a member of that
 community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility of reforming
 your sub-community.


That stands just as much true for you too. Your community has been
wreaking as much trouble as my community has been. The question is, are
hindus really your community as much as Muslims are my community? Is there a
universal Hindu or a universal Muslim?



 Its either that or you change your name and forgo that
 particular identity.


You get even better with every sentence.



 Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other
 communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing
 the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I
 know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other major terrorist
 groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe groups like
 Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary of those in
 khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick.


This is the fundamental problem with today's times. And then we ask why is
there violence in society?

I have never felt like a Muslim in my life before as much as I am made to
feel now. My father's factory was burnt down in the riots of 1993 in Bombay
by a mob of rowdies, and even then, we never felt discriminated. But in
today's times, it seems that the base identity has become so critical in
understanding and experiencing the world, that I even feel frightened to be
part of this set-up. Yet, live I must!


-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Zainab Bawa
Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she
would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay
vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was
refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism.

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:04 AM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote:
  I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and
  women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher.
  The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were
  several people who refused to rent to me with a curt No bachelors, we
  have a teenage daughter

 The weird thing is they are willing to rent to single (fe)males who
 are foreigners.  Maybe its the green bucks or the fair skin is
 better attitude which reminds me of those matrimonial ads seeking
 fair brides.
 --
 .




-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur
In Free Societies I think we believe there's large social benefit to
fairness and freedom. This includes access to enfranchisement in that
society. And a place to live, a place to work, etc. are elements of that.
Hence, in the US, there are Civil Rights laws that make certain
discrimination against people on the basis of race, religion, and gender
illegal -- all added in the 20th century after struggles.

I agree with personal choice; for example, I disagree with forcing a woman
to wear a headscarf and I disagree with attempts to force a woman not to be
able to wear a headscarf -- like some French schools tried to do. No one
forces them to rent out their places. But if they want to engage in what is
essentially commerce, for the greater societal welfare it needs to be
governed by fair rules as much as stock transactions should bar insider
information. For example, there is a list of information that a realtor
cannot provide a buyer in the US as its considered discriminatory:
http://law.freeadvice.com/government_law/civil_rights_law_ada/housing_protections.htm

That said, there's plenty hidden discrimination -- people who don't want to
rent to college kids fearing destructive parties. Condo communities that
don't allow children because it annoys the old folks. Fat people are often
discriminated against in the workplace. Sometimes it can be hard to prove.
As much as a huge liability the litigious nature of the US is, sometimes it
does end up scaring people into doing the ethical thing, simply to avoid
punishment.

But on a personal note, a vegetarian Hindu in India (mind you, that's what
my Indian side of the family has been for generations), who walks around
thinking themselves morally superior to a Swede who eats meat just makes me
laugh. In Sweden there is no such idea as a person being a dalit. There
are no slums. Everyone can go to school. It is illegal to discriminate
against people based on color (they even have dark skinned women on TV,
which I almost never see here in India!), religion, race, gender, etc. There
is no eve-teasing, no police torture (and the police enforce the law), no
dowrys, no honor killing, very little violence and crime, you can cross the
street without cars trying to run you down, etc. When India starts taking
care of the human beings here, I'll stop eating meat. Priorities, please!

Two final points -- the US has plenty of poverty, corruption, and violence
(not to mention the reported torture in Gitmo)-- which many Americans find
shameful (and I also laugh at Americans who think we're the best because
we've got claim to so many superlatives, rather than contemplating rating us
on the life of the average person or plight of those least fortunate). And
second, there are *many* progressive and humanist Indians I've met who want
to change things for the better here (and things have been getting better
here in so many ways) -- the population is diverse here and I'm only talking
about that segment that acts in these intolerant ways. The conflict between
the intolerati (some of whom wouldn't want to rent to an Indian because
they don't want that damned curry smell in their rental unit --
fortunately that's illegal for them to do -- and some of whom would want all
Muslims in the US rounded up and put in camps, which again, is completely
unconstitutional and would never be done -- especially after the shame of
the Japanese internment during WWII) and the rest of Americans is one of the
reasons for the major regime change in 2008.

Because, to quote Michael Caine's character from the Austin Powers movie,
There are two things I can't stand: people who are intolerant of other
people's cultures, and the Dutch! :-)

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:

 It is problematic when vegetarianism is imposed on my by force, in both
 subtle and not-so-subtle ways. That I am viewed as lowly, meat eating
 person, simply because some cultures believe that it is more moral and
 superior to eat vegetarian food. There are personal choices, social
 choices,
 ecological choices for eating vegetables over meat. That is fine as long as
 it is not imposed on me. There is a fundamental issue of freedom at stake
 here.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Zainab Bawa


 My post was only meant as an example of how the actions of a fringe group
 of
 a community will nevertheless influence the opinions of others about that
 community at large.


And that will also influence your judgements. Clap, clap, clap. Applause,
applause, applause.

-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur
But no one's apologizing to me for the fact that steak is so delicious, damn
it! And don't even get me started on the wonder that is bacon...

And no one's apologizing to the person that may worship phallic objects who
is horrified at the treatment of carrots and cucumbers...  (although I
suppose that now impugns sausage)...

But possibly as a result of lesser demand, beef is cheaper here (by quite a
bit) than it is in the US. So the economist in me doesn't want to talk
anyone out of vegitarianism.

(I am trying to infuse some levity here, so please take it in that spirit. I
do acknowledge the ethical and ecological virtues of veg.)

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:

 The other issue is also that I am made to feel apologetic about choosing to
 eat meat. That makes me feel worse!


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan

 And that will also influence your judgements. Clap, clap, clap. Applause,
 applause, applause.


Fine..I'll take the bait...

And how else do you propose I avoid being harassed by the police when it
turns out that the person I rented out the flat to is a suspected terrorist.

I didn't say I would pass judgment that he/she is a terrorist just on the
basis of their Muslim name, just that I would be more wary. Since you've
culled out other parts of my post - I'll restate. I didn't say I wouldn't
rent to a Muslim, just not to somebody I didn't know at all or wasn't
referred to me by somebody I know.

Contrary to how you make it sound, I *don't* avoid Muslims like the plague.
But neither do I want to be the open-minded stereotype-rejecting
progressive-thinking idiot.

What you might not have guessed from my name is that I am from Kerala. The
place where my family stay in Cochin is a predominantly Muslim area, its
called Kakkanad which means land of Muslims. We have Muslim neighbors. Their
son, after attending a madrassa for a few months changed into a different
person and started beating up his parents and sisters (they themselves admit
that this was the reason, or at least it is after this that he changed). I
wonder what happened to the other kids who attended the same madrassa.

I remember a whole bunch of people being beaten black and blue in Palghat
(where I did my engineering) because they went for an ill-advised victory
march through a Muslim neighbourhood after India beat Pakistan in cricket!
:).

In my college, a few of my Muslim friends were no longer invited to the
meetings of some Islamic Students Association (not sure of the name) because
they used to drink. Incidentally, almost all of the Muslim students were
part of this so called association except for maybe a handful.
(Incidentally, Kerala has 15% reservation for Muslims in professional
colleges and there were about a thousand students in my college apart from
those who get in through the general quota, just to give you an idea of the
numbers).

So, you might be one of those who rejected that identity (like my friends),
and so you do have the right to be offended and which is why I apologized.

Incidentally, somebody I met at a random party and became friends with a few
weeks ago, admitted last weekend that he had contributed money to the LTTE.
This guy went to BITS and an IIM. So if a good education does not take this
out of you, why do you expect that it will remove all stereotypes (assuming
you weren't baiting me with that oft-used provocation too)?

Kiran


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Mahesh Murthy
I was born to Hindu parents, am agnostic, but I follow the ancient Hindu
tradition of enjoying beef.

But not as much as I enjoy chicken though.

I find it somewhat immoral to be vegetarian - there must be something
unnatural and wrong if you skip a few obviously pre-ordained steps on the
food chain.

I have also long held that the lack of success of the Indian cricket team
till 5 years ago was the presence of curd-rice-eating apologetic medium
pacers like Javagal Srinath and Srinivas Prasad. What hope did we ever have
then? Deeply immoral, man.

With Zak, Munaf, Ishan and Praveen, we have something going now, I think.
Morality has been restored somewhat.

Burp.

:-)



On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:

 The other issue is also that I am made to feel apologetic about choosing to
 eat meat. That makes me feel worse!




Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan
 LTTE is a very different form of struggle and organization and it cannot be
 compared  blanket with terrorism, and other kinds of violence. I have very
 close Sri Lankan friends, and educated, whose family members have been
 killed in LTTE blasts and violence, and who still support the LTTE. The
 instance you
 cited of the person giving money to LTTE is a very very different kind of a
 phenomenon and it has a different kind of political economy attached to it.


I realize it is different. And I wanted to understand further and so we
talked. At the end, it turned out his reasons (if you can call it that) was
something similar to identifying with the struggle.

So on the face of it, it looks like a well educated guy who got influenced
through whatever means and decided to support terrorism (whatever the
reasons, it still means the killing of innocent people, intentionally or
otherwise). I intend to probe further, and hopefully I'm proved wrong.

Kiran


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Zainab Bawa
What constitutes terrorism is highly subjective. If you think struggles
based on identity, freedom and not wanting to comply with a hegemonic notion
of nation are equal to terrorism, then your understanding of terrorism is
vastly different from mine. Violence is used when other spaces and avenues
for negotiation and understanding are blocked. There are enough Lankans and
Tamilians who contribute to the LTTE on various grounds and not all of them
can be bracketed as violence-loving people. It is a matter of political
consciousness and choice to support particular values that these individuals
believe in.
That said, this instance is not an appropriate one to use in our
conversations. It has a different history, connotations and political
economy to it and it does not compare with the kind of discrimination in
housing markets that occurs in Indian cities.
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyan 
kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote:

  LTTE is a very different form of struggle and organization and it cannot
 be
  compared  blanket with terrorism, and other kinds of violence. I have
 very
  close Sri Lankan friends, and educated, whose family members have been
  killed in LTTE blasts and violence, and who still support the LTTE. The
  instance you
  cited of the person giving money to LTTE is a very very different kind of
 a
  phenomenon and it has a different kind of political economy attached to
 it.


 I realize it is different. And I wanted to understand further and so we
 talked. At the end, it turned out his reasons (if you can call it that) was
 something similar to identifying with the struggle.

 So on the face of it, it looks like a well educated guy who got influenced
 through whatever means and decided to support terrorism (whatever the
 reasons, it still means the killing of innocent people, intentionally or
 otherwise). I intend to probe further, and hopefully I'm proved wrong.

 Kiran




-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan
 What constitutes terrorism is highly subjective. If you think struggles
 based on identity, freedom and not wanting to comply with a hegemonic
 notion
 of nation are equal to terrorism, then your understanding of terrorism is
 vastly different from mine. Violence is used when other spaces and avenues
 for negotiation and understanding are blocked. There are enough Lankans and
 Tamilians who contribute to the LTTE on various grounds and not all of them
 can be bracketed as violence-loving people. It is a matter of political
 consciousness and choice to support particular values that these
 individuals
 believe in.
 That said, this instance is not an appropriate one to use in our
 conversations. It has a different history, connotations and political
 economy to it and it does not compare with the kind of discrimination in
 housing markets that occurs in Indian cities.


Agreed. I've not made up my mind. Maybe there are other reasons, I only
stated it since from the discussion I had with him it sounded very flimsy.

Kiran


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread ss
On Monday 20 Apr 2009 8:08:06 am Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
 Forget single. Get the gujjus out of mumbai and you'd probably have a
 better Mumbai than most (no wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat
 - they have a CM they deserve)

Ah yes leave Mumbai to the real heroes - Bal Thickray and his clan.

shiv



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur

 I didn't say I would pass judgment that he/she is a terrorist just on the
 basis of their Muslim name, just that I would be more wary. Since you've
 culled out other parts of my post - I'll restate. I didn't say I wouldn't
 rent to a Muslim, just not to somebody I didn't know at all or wasn't
 referred to me by somebody I know.

 Contrary to how you make it sound, I *don't* avoid Muslims like the plague.
 But neither do I want to be the open-minded stereotype-rejecting
 progressive-thinking idiot.


I find the best way to think of humans are a bunch of pretty much identical
scared little hairless monkeys who mostly can't tell the difference between
post-facto rationalized instinct and deliberate thought. We'll make great
uranium miners for our oppressive space-alien overlords who won't care who's
from what religion, family, color, or whatever -- no matter how much we
protest that we're different and special from the others. I look forward to
it. :-)

That said, in 988 AD if you saw a bunch of big blonde guys in a long boat,
you might wanna go the other way. In 1942 Europe, if you saw a swastika
flag, you shouldn't assume the place is a Yoga institute (The Yoga Institute
in Santacruz, Mumbai is full of swastikas). Were all Germans Nazis? The
party membership was in the single digit percentages at its height. During
the crusades, I'd have rather taken my chances with Saladadin than Richard
the Lionhearted (the Europeans at that time were notoriously savage) -- and
if I was looking for science and culture, you'd want to head to Baghdad not
Paris. Some say white people have never been slaves, but I assure you that
Germanians, Gauls, and Brittanians captured by Caesar's western campaign in
the 1st century BC came to Rome in chains and were sold.

And in the early 21st Century, chances are that a terrorist is going to be a
young Islamic male more than a middle aged Belgian woman. That's just the
historical timing at the moment. And a blonde male in a long boat will
elicit less fear. In fact the chance that the terrorist is going to be a
young male, or violence will come from one, is obviously more likely. Over
90% of the US prison population is male, and something like 50% are violent
offenders.

Before in the US the fear was anti-federal militia groups such as the
affinity of Tim McVey, a white christian who perpetrated the largest act of
terrorism on US soil (Oklahoma Federal Building, some 190 deaths including
children). The FBI had been raiding groups like that accumulating weapons.
That was part of McVey's espoused justification for his actions.

I never voted for Bush. I've been apologetic for the impression he's given
the world of Americans for 8 years. But I'm stuck with that stereotype. If I
walk into a store dressed up all gangsta I will have my picture ID checked
before I can use my credit card. If I'm wearing a nice suit, I won't be
checked.

However, if a US police officer pulls over a black person just for driving
in an neighborhood that has a low African-American population, that officer
is violating the civil rights of the person and is opened up to dismissal
and charges.

US officials and airport security are not supposed to profile. But as a
young man of swarthy description, I fit a profile. If they want to search
me, I don't mind. I've nothing to hide. And if there's anyone else who looks
like me getting on that plane, please, check them. It sucks that people who
happen to look somewhat like me were behind 9/11, but there's not much I can
do about it, much like a peaceful tall Blonde guy in 988AD might be killed
for being mistaken as a Viking.

However, the idea that Muslims should somehow be cleaning their own house
and taking care of these guys is stupid. I had no power to stop what was
going on in Gitmo. Hypothetically, had I gone down there and knocked on the
door with a letter telling them to stop, I'd have been thrown in the
slammer. A palenstinian living by some guys shooting off rockets at Israel
is going to get a bullet in the head or a rifle butt in the face if he goes
over there and tells them to stop. I don't take responsibility for what any
people who meet any of my demographic groups does. I'm a culture of one -- I
didn't ask to be born this way -- and I will shamelessly borrow and use the
best ideas of any and all groups of humans. I will not let retarded
supersticious idiots from hundreds of years ago force my behavior (although
if they had some good ideas, I'm game -- pick and choose).

So my point:
(1) I can understand someone being more worried that a young muslim man
might be a security risk than other folks.
(2) I still think it should be illegal to use such criteria to make
decisions about commerce, including renting.
(3) Treating women like second class citizens and beating up your family is
never ok -- I don't care who or what says otherwise -- it's wrong. (Unless,
of course a woman chooses to want to be treated that way, or if a family
member asks to be beat up, 

Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur
During the crusades, I'd have rather taken my chances with Saladadin than
Richard the Lionhearted (the Europeans at that time were notoriously savage)
-- and if I was looking for science and culture, you'd want to head to
Baghdad not Paris.


I meant to spell Salahadin not Saladadin which sounds more like a witty
pun for a Middle Eastern style Salad on some chain restaurant's menu (ironic
slip given the vegitarian discussion earlier)


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread sur...@hserus.net
I've eaten camel in riyadh and kangaroo in perth. i just dont order meat when 
others at the table are vegetarian

-- 
srs/nokia e71

-original message-
Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
From: . svaks...@gmail.com
Date: 21-04-2009 20:59

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:
 Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she
 would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay
 vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was
 refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism.

Assuming that your Belgian and American friends are not Muslim, the
claim that its a plot to keep out the whole Muslim community does not
stand. It seems like an individual's bias about who should live in his
private property.  Should he be hauled to jail for that? I dont think
so. He is just yet another narrow-minded person I'd would rather avoid
even if the property was rent-free.  Its also a misnomer that all
Hindus are vegetarian which is more of individual choice or a
family's choice in some cases, but definitely not a religious one.
Religion per se is not evil, rather its the people who use (any)
religion to control and grab power or dictate terms to others that are
the root of the problem.  What happened to your friends (and you) are
an individual's bias and by stretching that line of logic I can think
of gazillion personal instances when I have been discriminated against
on the basis of my gender, age, nationality, skin color, religion,
  I happen to know a Sikh family who are staunch vegetarians and
would not wish to mingle or marry a person different from them.  I
also know Jains who eat meat outside the house but toe the line and
would not dare risk offending the better half (or his parents) by even
mentioning chicken tikka or kebab at home.

And yet, stretching that line of reasoning and argument is a scary
double-edged sword, as in, any women could easily take offence at any
matrimonial sites because they encourage Indian men to advertise for a
bride thus : Male, 31 yrs, 5'10 very fair (brown-skin is so not
metro-sexual when you have skin-whitening products for men modeled by
the Badshah of Bollywood himself), handsome, highly educated
Phd/Engineer/Doctor/add education, add religion (category, subcaste no
bar.  Wow, a broad-minded bloke !) seeks a mutually compatible
accomplished (read, willing to be my lifelong unpaid housemaid who
will provide sex-at-my-command) educated/working (another unsaid
euphemism for dowry in monthly installments) bride.  The opposite is
also true but they dont sound very logical to me.  Would it be
illogical and unfair to label every Indian male who advertises his
personal preferences as a racist and chauvinistic pig or claim that
ALL men are rapists because the proportion of men who rape is more
than the opposite ; which does seem like stretching logic a wee bit
too much for half the world's population being discriminated against,
if numbers count.

Does'nt discrimination start the moment we divide, classify and
sub-classify things, people, animals, [add your poison of choice],
along various criteria?  Being different is a form of discrimination
too but the last I heard, the politically correct name was
diversity. In a biological sense, each of us is uniquely different,
if DNA matters.

-- 
.





Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur
Oh, and I forgot one important point -- that playing up this Muslim Threat
has been politically expedient for a number of politicians around the world
(and definitely in the US). There's a different between the truth and the
truthiness that gets demagogues what they want.

And as far as whipping some young men up (especially when they're cut off
from women due to cultural prohibitions) into a passionate violent movement,
that's been going on forever, all over the world, and the leaders (almost
always older men) get their own demagoguery benefits, both psychological,
power, and fiduciary.

And getting a population angry at an outside enemy is a fantastic way to
distract them from domestic problems. And I don't think some of the guys in
the metal detector or 9mm automatic ammunition businesses (or Halliburton)
mind it too much either. Not to at all say they incite it, but I don't know
how strong their motivation to see it go away would be.

If there's no political motivation, then they just become gangs or skinheads
or whatever. I think there's too much focus on trying to uncover the
rationale rather than trying to measure the testosterone level. A bull
elephant during their heat with high testosterone levels is predisposed to
attack and dangerous to be around.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread .
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote:

 On a slightly different tangent
 What I find very interesting is the differentiation in discrimination
 of different kinds in the media. For example, I see the reservation
 policies followed by the current congress government/short-lived VP
 Singh (though BJP / third front aren't any better - they are probably
 worse) as damaging to society as much as the
 Godhra/Kandamal/Anti-sikh/Anti-UP riots in
 Gujarat/Orissa/Delhi/Mumbai. The only difference seems that in one
 case the effect of discrimination are more longer term and less
 visible (gory sequences of beating up people / burning up shops makes
 more compelling viewing than students missing better opportunities for
 better education). Also one is mostly class-based / caste based rather
 than religion-based.

Isnt the media (probably the world-over) only concerned about the
upswing in ratings and advertising revenues than digging out the
truth, a tedious job at best.  A student not realizing his dream of
being a doctor because a reservation category student with lesser
marks than him made the grade is just not juicy enough to activate
outpourings of sympathy.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread .
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:02 PM, sur...@hserus.net sur...@hserus.net wrote:
 I've eaten camel in riyadh and kangaroo in perth. i just dont order meat when 
 others at the table are vegetarian

An appropriate reply would have been sent your way if you took the
trouble to snip out the irrelevant parts of the conversation instead
of top-posted vague statements which seem like fish bait ;)
-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:02 PM, sur...@hserus.net sur...@hserus.netwrote:

 I've eaten camel in riyadh and kangaroo in perth. i just dont order meat
 when others at the table are vegetarian


I do cook special stuff just for them when I invite them over. Even when I
have a barbecue, in California you're going to have vegetarians coming,
religious, ethical, and/or health motivated.

And I use separate cooking utensils and pans and all that jazz. I know from
my own family how picky vegetarians want things done. It might be a little
annoying, but I respect it.

And I never expect them to cook meat for me. I've no problem eating veg.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan
 However, the idea that Muslims should somehow be cleaning their own house
 and taking care of these guys is stupid.


Hmm...maybe..but the pressure on some of them who do think differently to
conform is quite great. I felt that from one of the friends I mentioned in
my post.

Somewhere during the third year, one of them lost his mother. There was so
much guilt drilled into him that after he came back a few weeks later, he
completely quit drinking and smoking. Started doing namaz religiosly and
going to the prayer every Friday (we usually were sleeping after a heavy
lunch or used the long lunch break to take the rest of the day off and the
weekend started early). And he avoided hanging out with us, and moved with
the other Muslims more.

I realize these are isolated incidents, and exceptions aren't the rule, but
then exceptions are a clue. The alternative to some of the more progressive
Muslims leading the change is that we wait till the free market economy and
capitalism hits them hard enough that they are more concerned with making
money and living the good life that religion takes a back seat in their
overall psyche (simplistic, but there has to be some motivators?).

That madrassa reformed kid I mentioned was a normal, school going kid. The
family itself was not very well off, but they were doing OK. And they were
very nice people. Their daughters (or at least one of them) were doing
professional degrees in engineering (which are the most competitive to get
admissions to) which is quite rare in Kerala Muslims in similar economic
strata.

So, basically I don't get it. I don't think we can compare them to the
Vikings. And I don't think this is just history repeating itself. And
forcing change (through military or other means) from the outside might only
result in making matters worse (as evidenced in recent efforts) and maybe if
nurtured from within, it might have better results?

Kiran


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread .
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote:

 veg or non-veg fish bait? :-)

...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong friends who still
insist that fish is a vegetarian dish. Serves as a nice conversation
starter over lunch/dinner.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Pranesh Prakash
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 21:20, Kiran K Karthikeyan
kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote:
 Somewhere during the third year, one of them lost his mother. There was so
 much guilt drilled into him that after he came back a few weeks later, he
 completely quit drinking and smoking. Started doing namaz religiosly and
 going to the prayer every Friday (we usually were sleeping after a heavy
 lunch or used the long lunch break to take the rest of the day off and the
 weekend started early). And he avoided hanging out with us, and moved with
 the other Muslims more.

 I realize these are isolated incidents, and exceptions aren't the rule, but
 then exceptions are a clue. The alternative to some of the more progressive
 Muslims leading the change is that we wait till the free market economy and
 capitalism hits them hard enough that they are more concerned with making
 money and living the good life that religion takes a back seat in their
 overall psyche (simplistic, but there has to be some motivators?).

I'm not sure, but your suggestion seems to be that quit[ting]
drinking and smoking, doing namaz religiously, and going to a
temple every Friday is anti-progressive.  Why?  He avoided hanging
out with us seems to have more of a chance of being deemed
un-progressive, but then I'd have to get to know you and your buddies
better to take a call on that.

And when this day of capitalistic rule does come upon earth (is it a
bit like the biblical apocalypse? or a bit more like ragnarok with the
leftie gods in death throes?)  what happens to all those
liberals/progressives that believe living the good life isn't all
that life is about?  And what about those that want life with tinges
of the bad, the spiritual, and other such devilish things?



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Tue, 21/4/09, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: . svaks...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 9:31 PM
 On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi
 Bellur rav...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  veg or non-veg fish bait? :-)
 
 ...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong friends
 who still
 insist that fish is a vegetarian dish. Serves as a nice
 conversation
 starter over lunch/dinner.
 
 -- 
 .


??

OF COURSE EET EES FEESH. 

Jolo-phool, capisce?

Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture!


  Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to 
http://in.movies.yahoo.com/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur

 So, basically I don't get it. I don't think we can compare them to the
 Vikings. And I don't think this is just history repeating itself. And
 forcing change (through military or other means) from the outside might
 only
 result in making matters worse (as evidenced in recent efforts) and maybe
 if
 nurtured from within, it might have better results?

 Kiran


Yeah, it was somewhat flawed of an example. But lets say that radical
christians were able to get big funding and take over the US. It would be
pretty scary as well. And maybe they'd  be supporting christian martyrs
worldwide to protect christandom. If you watch the documentary Jesus Camp,
it's scary. Little kids chanting about how they were christian soldiers and
how they were in a religious war.

Thankfully we have government agencies that keep their eyes on those guys,
and most Americans, like most people in the world, I think, are moderate and
just wanna live and let live (except Paul McCartney when he was writing that
song for the James Bond movie...)

A lot of religions have that part where they are the chosen people and
everyone else is infidel shit. I think those who seize on that find it much
easier to do whatever they want to outsiders.

But ultimately, if it comes to crossing the street to avoid a perceived
risky group of people, or showing one is above such thing -- in the
individual case, I think we're programmed to err on the side of safety. It's
much easier to be an idealist (I find) in a safe environment. :-)


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Tue, 21/4/09, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote:

 From: Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 9:41 PM
 
 
 
 --- On Tue, 21/4/09, . svaks...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  From: . svaks...@gmail.com
  Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
  To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
  Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 9:31 PM
  On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi
  Bellur rav...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   veg or non-veg fish bait? :-)
  
  ...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong
 friends
  who still
  insist that fish is a vegetarian dish. Serves as a
 nice
  conversation
  starter over lunch/dinner.
  
  -- 
  .
 
 
 ??
 
 OF COURSE EET EES FEESH. 
 
 Jolo-phool, capisce?
 
 Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture!
 

The subject got mis-typed: it should have been

Re: [silk] Need lots of help

And the text should have started:

OF COURSE EET EES PHLAWAR.

The rest of it, ethnic slurs included, stays the same.


  Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to 
http://in.movies.yahoo.com/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Zainab Bawa
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:59 PM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she
  would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay
  vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was
  refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism.

 Assuming that your Belgian and American friends are not Muslim, the
 claim that its a plot to keep out the whole Muslim community does not
 stand. It seems like an individual's bias about who should live in his
 private property.  Should he be hauled to jail for that? I dont think
 so. He is just yet another narrow-minded person I'd would rather avoid
 even if the property was rent-free.  Its also a misnomer that all
 Hindus are vegetarian which is more of individual choice or a
 family's choice in some cases, but definitely not a religious one.
 Religion per se is not evil, rather its the people who use (any)
 religion to control and grab power or dictate terms to others that are
 the root of the problem.  What happened to your friends (and you) are
 an individual's bias and by stretching that line of logic I can think
 of gazillion personal instances when I have been discriminated against
 on the basis of my gender, age, nationality, skin color, religion,
   I happen to know a Sikh family who are staunch vegetarians and
 would not wish to mingle or marry a person different from them.  I
 also know Jains who eat meat outside the house but toe the line and
 would not dare risk offending the better half (or his parents) by even
 mentioning chicken tikka or kebab at home.

 And yet, stretching that line of reasoning and argument is a scary
 double-edged sword, as in, any women could easily take offence at any
 matrimonial sites because they encourage Indian men to advertise for a
 bride thus : Male, 31 yrs, 5'10 very fair (brown-skin is so not
 metro-sexual when you have skin-whitening products for men modeled by
 the Badshah of Bollywood himself), handsome, highly educated
 Phd/Engineer/Doctor/add education, add religion (category, subcaste no
 bar.  Wow, a broad-minded bloke !) seeks a mutually compatible
 accomplished (read, willing to be my lifelong unpaid housemaid who
 will provide sex-at-my-command) educated/working (another unsaid
 euphemism for dowry in monthly installments) bride.  The opposite is
 also true but they dont sound very logical to me.  Would it be
 illogical and unfair to label every Indian male who advertises his
 personal preferences as a racist and chauvinistic pig or claim that
 ALL men are rapists because the proportion of men who rape is more
 than the opposite ; which does seem like stretching logic a wee bit
 too much for half the world's population being discriminated against,
 if numbers count.

 Does'nt discrimination start the moment we divide, classify and
 sub-classify things, people, animals, [add your poison of choice],
 along various criteria?  Being different is a form of discrimination
 too but the last I heard, the politically correct name was
 diversity. In a biological sense, each of us is uniquely different,
 if DNA matters.

 --
 .


Dear .
Discrimination in the rental housing market is not limited to religion. It
extends to caste, sex, nationality (and is there anything else under the
sun?). When I was hunting for a house, in two instances I was openly told
that Muslims will not be entertained in particular households. In one case,
a broker asked me if it was okay that the landlord was Muslim!?!?!?

My friends in my Ph.D. center have faced discrimination on the basis of
caste. In one case, the landlord openly asked my peer what caste he was.
When my peer said he was not brahmin, the landlord said, but you
non-Brahmins have the urge to eat non-veg. How will you control it? Now,
this was seriously offensive.

In a city like Bombay, there is very clearly discrimination based on
religion - Muslims not allowed. In Delhi too, Muslims are not rented out
properties because of the terrorism issue - any Muslim is a threat lest he
or she turn out to be a gun sporting terrorist at the end of the day. In
Bangalore, the discrimination operates on the basis of caste and Christian
and Muslim sounding names are a no-no in South Bangalore (I know only of
South Bangalore). I have come to realize that people are very afraid of what
they see as overstepping traditions and therefore, non-vegetarians are not
allowed on ancestral properties. This applies to people of whatever religion
they are from. In some cases, I was told you can eat non-veg outside, but
cannot cook inside the home. There is a certain belief about sanctity of
tradition and property which operates in most of the cases.

Sure, we need to respect people's sentiments of vegetarianism. My father
refuses to eat non-veg in the aircraft if the passenger seated next to him
is ordering a vegetarian meal. But I am afraid 

Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Dave Long
And how else do you propose I avoid being harassed by the police  
when it
turns out that the person I rented out the flat to is a suspected  
terrorist.


It looks like there are some 140 million muslims in india (of which a  
fair number in AP?).  Unless there are also close to a million  
suspected terrorists who are considered landlord-harassment-worthy by  
the police, I'd say there are far more pressing worries to consider,  
such as how to avoid the hassle when it turns out that the person you  
rented out the flat to isn't timely with the rent.


-Dave

We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom  
that is in it and stop there lest we be like the cat that sits down  
on a hot stove lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove lid again  
and that is well but also she will never sit down on a cold one  
anymore.





Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.comwrote:

  What makes you believe that Muslims
 shy away from capitalism?


True, and there's also that matter of the bazzillions we pay to Muslim
businessmen for oil (granted not in India, but remember that 17 of the 19
terrorists to whom 9/11 is attributed were Saudi Arabian). The west in
particular has made them some of the richest people in the world.

And to be honest, the west (and the US) has meddled extensively in that
region, mostly to dire results (not to mention counter to the values of
democracy and freedom that we ought to be prosetylizing in the world).

But that's just because they had the gall to be sitting on top of OUR oil!
(to be said in a Texan accent to best suitably mock those in American
businessmen who thought that way... who probably also ate a lot of steak,
but I doubt that was the root cause of their moral flexibility).

Ask Salvador Allende what happens when you try to get in the way of our
bauxite! I don't know if George Washinton, Thomas Jefferson, or Ben Franklin
would have approved.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Tue, 21/4/09, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 10:43 PM
 On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM,
 Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.comwrote:
 
   What makes you believe that Muslims
  shy away from capitalism?
 
 
 True, and there's also that matter of the bazzillions we
 pay to Muslim
 businessmen for oil (granted not in India, but remember
 that 17 of the 19
 terrorists to whom 9/11 is attributed were Saudi Arabian).
 The west in
 particular has made them some of the richest people in the
 world.
 
 And to be honest, the west (and the US) has meddled
 extensively in that
 region, mostly to dire results (not to mention counter to
 the values of
 democracy and freedom that we ought to be prosetylizing in
 the world).
 
 But that's just because they had the gall to be sitting on
 top of OUR oil!
 (to be said in a Texan accent to best suitably mock those
 in American
 businessmen who thought that way... who probably also ate a
 lot of steak,
 but I doubt that was the root cause of their moral
 flexibility).
 
 Ask Salvador Allende what happens when you try to get in
 the way of our
 bauxite! I don't know if George Washinton, Thomas
 Jefferson, or Ben Franklin
 would have approved.


Exactly what is this crap supposed to mean? Where are we going with this one?


  Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! 
Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Ravi Bellur
That was supposed to go to the thread that's numbering about 190+ entries.
dunno why it ended up here.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread .
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:


 Dear .
 Discrimination in the rental housing market is not limited to religion. It
 extends to caste, sex, nationality (and is there anything else under the
 sun?).

Yes, Gender.  Would it be wrong to say its the largest group being
discriminated against in many different situations? To (re)cite an
earlier experience, the landlord never asked me the woman's religion
or age (both of which I didnt know) but her singular status and living
alone upset him enough to claim that single women are a big problem
that no landlord wants.  Now that does get my goat (pun (un)intended)
as I never understood what its supposed to imply or mean or was I
reading too much into it. But he was not the first to say that so when
2 brokers echoed his s(ub)lim(e)y thoughts I realized how dangerous
single women are, never mind that men speaking thus have daughters.
The irony is befuddling!!

In retrospect, I'd have been more worried knowing that a woman I
referred had to interact with such creepiness. That said, people still
have the right to being bigots and narrow-minded when it comes to
personal spaces or personal life choices. I too have a choice to
ignore and avoid them or reduce my interactions to the minimum if
necessary.  Yeah, discrimination against women is not limited to
Bangalore or India and probably exists everywhere in different forms.
Heck, which woman is yet to feel safe while living (or traveling)
alone in India after dark? Or escape spousal physical abuse in
middle-class homes? or escape from incest, rape or sexual harassment?
Or the fact that our courts still tolerate and allow an accused to use
sexist language and red herrings in anticipatory bail applications[0].

[0]  http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1249292

I could go on but this discussion on discrimination and incidents like
the Rama Sene made me realize that gender (as a kid/teen, i'd never
have believed it and i may be completely wrong here) is still the
largest demographic group being discriminated against, not changed
much over the centuries (in form perhaps). I dont see the media-hype
around gender-related crimes (except the sensational ones) nor any
proper studies undertaken across all demographics of Indian society.
Did you really think an educated middle-class
engineer/doctor/businessman cannot indulge in spousal abuse? Does
class, caste or education have a role to play in gender abuse. I dont
know. But our general populace does not care enough to bring about a
change or a proper support system for the largest demographic you can
find, except perhaps in sensational cases which get media attention
and gather public support. Sadly most crimes and the female victims
slip between the cracks, go un-noticed, or become mere statistics.


 And also, I am not an advocate of regulations to curb discrimination. As
 has been pointed out in some of the postings, biases and prejudices are very
 deep seated. Applying regulations can be counter-productive in the sense of
 increasing the antagonism. Neither do I believe that the market will solve
 the problem. Some pretty radical dislocations are required i.e. traditions
 and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of religion, identity and
 property.

I dont know how the radical change will come about but harking back
into time reminds me that discrimination is certainly not a new
phenomenon when it comes to property. Erstwhile Mughal rulers used to
collect the jazia tax from non-muslims while Hindu kings have fought
violent battles over kingdoms and women. What is it about
property/kingdoms are fiercely personal (unlike maybe a job?) and does
evoke the beast (arent they territorial too) within humans??

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Aadisht Khanna
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.comwrote:

  And also, I am not an advocate of regulations to curb discrimination. As
 has been pointed out in some of the postings, biases and prejudices are
 very
 deep seated. Applying regulations can be counter-productive in the sense of
 increasing the antagonism. Neither do I believe that the market will solve
 the problem. Some pretty radical dislocations are required i.e. traditions
 and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of religion, identity
 and
 property.


Zainab,

I'd be interested to know what you think the source of these dislocations is
going to be. I can think of religious reform movements like Arya Samaj or
Brahmo Samaj (both of which have lost their iconoclasm by now), and new
public institutions. Are you thinking of the same things or something
completely different?

-- 
Aadisht Khanna
Address for mailing lists: aadisht.gro...@gmail.com
Personal address: aadi...@aadisht.net


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Venkat Mangudi
   Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote:

LTTE is a very different form of struggle and organization and it cannot be


I realize it is different. And I wanted to understand further and so we
talked. At the end, it turned out his reasons (if you can call it that) was
something similar to identifying with the struggle.


   Doesn't every radical organization and terrorist outfit have a cause?
   They always justify their actions. Doing that (justifying) does not
   vindicate them or absolve them of the crimes they commit. Heck, Indian
   freedom fighters were called terrorists by the Brits. In the end, it's
   all a matter of perspective. Just like who the landlord wants to rent
   his property out to. But then, I digress.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Venkat Mangudi
   . wrote:

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi Bellur [1]rav...@gmail.com wrote:

veg or non-veg fish bait? :-)

...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong friends who still

   Reminds me of this restaurant in Teaneck, NJ called Veggie Heaven. None
   of my friends believed that the Generals Tso's chicken they were having
   was not really chicken.

References

   1. mailto:rav...@gmail.com


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread ss
On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 9:41:22 pm Bonobashi wrote:


 Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture!

In other words there are only two types of human you can phind in this world

A bangali and a-bangali

shiv



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread ss
On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 9:55:42 pm . wrote:

 that Bengali women are more beautiful when they are angry, true.


Here's a bong woman you would not want to see angry..

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=CAP/2009/04/18/12/Img/Pc0121600.jpg

shiv



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Udhay Shankar N
Zainab Bawa wrote, [on 4/21/2009 10:17 PM]:

 Udhay, can I send an attachment to people on this list? There is a brilliant
 article on the historical basis of terrorism and responses to terrorism. It
 is very insightful and written beautifully.

The list is set to strip out attachments. I suggest just sending a URL
to the list. Kiran (er, the one you're married to) can help with
uploading it to a server somewhere. I can help too, let me know.

Udhay
-- 
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread ss
On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 10:11:30 pm Zainab Bawa wrote:
  Some pretty radical dislocations are required i.e. traditions
 and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of religion, identity
 and property.

An understatement.

I am in the middle of a radical exercise to assess the psyche and measure 
levels of bigotry in an admittedly small sample of a predominantly educated, 
non resident Indian Hindu crowd.

This group accuse all Muslims of living in a blinkered world out of which it 
is difficult or impossible to dislocate them. However - sufficient prodding 
shows that the exact mirror image of those attitudes exist among these people 
too with no insight and therefore a complete inability to change their 
viewpoint or see things in a different light.

To me the most interesting thing is the presence of these attitudes among 
people who otherwise imagine that they are liberalism's gift to humankind.

In the last two or three days (perhaps yesterday) I was reading a newspaper 
article (Times of India or Deccan Herald) about how us and them atitudes 
are introduced very early in pre-school life and that teachers in schools 
need to be taught how to handle with care.

I tried to locate that article - but I haven't found it yet. Even Google uncle 
has been unable to help.

shiv



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Wed, 22/4/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: ss cybers...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 6:19 AM
 On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 9:41:22 pm
 Bonobashi wrote:
 
 
  Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture!
 
 In other words there are only two types of human you can
 phind in this world
 
 A bangali and a-bangali
 
 shiv


At last, Sheeb Thakoor in his wijdom.


  Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! 
Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Wed, 22/4/09, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: ss cybers...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 6:48 AM
 On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 10:11:30 pm
 Zainab Bawa wrote:
   Some pretty radical dislocations are required
 i.e. traditions
  and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of
 religion, identity
  and property.
 
 An understatement.
 
 I am in the middle of a radical exercise to assess the
 psyche and measure 
 levels of bigotry in an admittedly small sample of a
 predominantly educated, 
 non resident Indian Hindu crowd.
 
 This group accuse all Muslims of living in a blinkered
 world out of which it 
 is difficult or impossible to dislocate them. However -
 sufficient prodding 
 shows that the exact mirror image of those attitudes exist
 among these people 
 too with no insight and therefore a complete inability to
 change their 
 viewpoint or see things in a different light.


that's called 'faith', Shiv.

You can't do anything with it, except kill babies and women.









  Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to 
http://in.business.yahoo.com/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-21 Thread ss
On Wednesday 22 Apr 2009 6:56:39 am Bonobashi wrote:
 You can't do anything with it, except kill babies and women.

I put it to you that this is the wrong thing to do.

One must always kill adolescent and adult men, and keep the women and children
That is a time tested way of making radical changes in mindset.

shiv



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread sur...@hserus.net
Your right stops right where it conflicts with another person's rights.  
Organized policies of discrimination such as vegetarian only buildings are an 
example.

-- 
srs/nokia e71

-original message-
Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
From: Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.com
Date: 20-04-2009 10:20

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:30, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:
 As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right
 to decide who he/she rents to.  If the 'no meat' policy should not be
 enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say eat meat to be
 considered one of us.

Forget about owners' rights.  That's secondary.  I think it first
needs to be established that an individual has the right to be
repulsed by dead animals.  I'm not sure people are in agreement on
that.

(On that note, that that right to be repulsed being used as a proxy
is repulsive goes without saying.  Or goes with being said in the last
sentence.)





Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan

 How I agree!

 It's a totally toxic state now, and the Gujaratis in Mumbai seem to be
 mirroring the native Gujarati.

 Isn't it ironic that after campaigning against all not from Maharashtra,
 the Thackerays should now find so much in common with the Gujarati?
 Presumably the Gujarati vote in Mumbai goes to the BJP, not to the Shiv
 Sena.

 What happened to the Gujarat and the Gujarati that we knew forty years,
 even twenty years ago? This shows what can happen under 'soft' Hindutva, and
 under the 'good' Taliban.


I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of batchmates from MBA and
we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I was a meat eater
(even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly had people over
drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch noise levels.

I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis (mostly by Marathis),
but I never experienced any discrimination due to my beef eating and
bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is almost exclusively to
keep out Muslims.

I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you are a part of is
causing trouble, you will face social repression. And as a member of that
community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility of reforming
your sub-community. Its either that or you change your name and forgo that
particular identity. This could be one of the reasons my family largely
excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified with those responsible
for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in Kerala (though they will
never admit to it).

Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other
communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing
the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I
know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other major terrorist
groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe groups like
Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary of those in
khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick.

Kiran


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Mon, 20/4/09, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 12:48 PM
 
  How I agree!
 
  It's a totally toxic state now, and the Gujaratis in
 Mumbai seem to be
  mirroring the native Gujarati.
 
  Isn't it ironic that after campaigning against all not
 from Maharashtra,
  the Thackerays should now find so much in common with
 the Gujarati?
  Presumably the Gujarati vote in Mumbai goes to the
 BJP, not to the Shiv
  Sena.
 
  What happened to the Gujarat and the Gujarati that we
 knew forty years,
  even twenty years ago? This shows what can happen
 under 'soft' Hindutva, and
  under the 'good' Taliban.
 
 
 I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of
 batchmates from MBA and
 we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I
 was a meat eater
 (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly
 had people over
 drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch
 noise levels.
 
 I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis (mostly
 by Marathis),
 but I never experienced any discrimination due to my beef
 eating and
 bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is
 almost exclusively to
 keep out Muslims.
 
 I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you
 are a part of is
 causing trouble, you will face social repression. And as a
 member of that
 community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility
 of reforming
 your sub-community. Its either that or you change your name
 and forgo that
 particular identity. This could be one of the reasons my
 family largely
 excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified with
 those responsible
 for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in Kerala
 (though they will
 never admit to it).
 
 Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or
 any other
 communty which is identified as causing terrorism or
 generally disturbing
 the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me
 from somebody I
 know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other
 major terrorist
 groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe
 groups like
 Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary
 of those in
 khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick.
 
 Kiran


I daresay that your, what is it, variability (?), would not extend to the 
extreme lengths of denying them accommodation (written with the full awareness 
that the parties in questions are supposedly wearing shorts).

Egregious excesses chapter: and I thought only we thick-tongued Bongs had 
problems with w and v.


  Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to 
http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan

 I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of batchmates from MBA and
 we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I was a meat eater
 (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly had people over
 drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch noise levels.

 I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis (mostly by Marathis),
 but I never experienced any discrimination due to my beef eating and
 bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is almost exclusively to
 keep out Muslims.

 I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you are a part of is
 causing trouble, you will face social repression. And as a member of that
 community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility of reforming
 your sub-community. Its either that or you change your name and forgo that
 particular identity. This could be one of the reasons my family largely
 excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified with those responsible
 for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in Kerala (though they will
 never admit to it).

 Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other
 communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing
 the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I
 know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other major terrorist
 groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe groups like
 Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary of those in
 khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick.

 Kiran


I have had it pointed out to be offlist that my post was offensive, and
though it was not meant to be, I realize now that it is.

However, I don't think its fair to bash the entire Gujarati community. And
yes, it isn't fair to bash the entire Muslim community either.It is a tough
existence for progressive Muslims who are already alienated by other
communities, to voice their opinions and be alienated by their own community
as well.

My post was only meant as an example of how the actions of a fringe group of
a community will nevertheless influence the opinions of others about that
community at large.

Apologies.

Kiran


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Srini RamaKrishnan
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]


 Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other
 communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing
 the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I
 know well.

Back in the 80s when Tamil Nadu was home base to the LTTE, you would
have been wise to never rent out your home to anyone who spoke Tamil
with a funny accent. And yes, all of them had letters of
recommendation from DMK politicians.

I have nothing against anyone, this is just self protection.

Cheeni



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan
 It's the dishonesty of the narrow-minded that rankles, rather than the
 (possibly) pragmatic discrimination of the fearful. That said, I'd
 definitely prefer the absence of either group.


How do you propose to end pragmatism? :)

Kiran


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Sumant Srivathsan

 How do you propose to end pragmatism? :)


By removing the need for it in this context, i.e., by removing the fear. :)

-- 
Sumant Srivathsan
http://sumants.blogspot.com


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Mon, 20/4/09, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 2:00 PM
 
  I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of
 batchmates from MBA and
  we never had a problem find a place to stay even
 though I was a meat eater
  (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and
 regularly had people over
  drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to
 watch noise levels.
 
  I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis
 (mostly by Marathis),
  but I never experienced any discrimination due to my
 beef eating and
  bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is
 almost exclusively to
  keep out Muslims.
 
  I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community
 you are a part of is
  causing trouble, you will face social repression. And
 as a member of that
  community, you cannot just shy away from the
 responsibility of reforming
  your sub-community. Its either that or you change your
 name and forgo that
  particular identity. This could be one of the reasons
 my family largely
  excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified
 with those responsible
  for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in
 Kerala (though they will
  never admit to it).
 
  Even I would be wary of lending my house out to
 Muslims (or any other
  communty which is identified as causing terrorism or
 generally disturbing
  the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred
 to me from somebody I
  know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all
 other major terrorist
  groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge
 (fringe groups like
  Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be
 vary of those in
  khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick.
 
  Kiran
 
 
 I have had it pointed out to be offlist that my post was
 offensive, and
 though it was not meant to be, I realize now that it is.
 
 However, I don't think its fair to bash the entire Gujarati
 community. 

Of COURSE it isn't. It was never meant to be a fair, objective comment; 
instead, it was intended for light relief, and an obviously over-the-top 
statement on the lines of I hate Saurav Ganguly.

I would be very deeply pained indeed if anybody took it seriously. 

The effective desiccation of the civil discourse in Gujarat, and the increasing 
desperation to catch up with the international consuming classes that seems to 
be a trend are not sufficient reason to call ALL Gujaratis bigots, and I do not 
intend it to be taken as such a call.


 And
 yes, it isn't fair to bash the entire Muslim community
 either.It is a tough
 existence for progressive Muslims who are already alienated
 by other
 communities, to voice their opinions and be alienated by
 their own community
 as well.
 
 My post was only meant as an example of how the actions of
 a fringe group of
 a community will nevertheless influence the opinions of
 others about that
 community at large.
 
 Apologies.
 
 Kiran
 


  Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! 
Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread .
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:54 AM, sur...@hserus.net sur...@hserus.net wrote:
 Owners right?  If today, in birmingham AL, some redneck refused to rent a 
 flat because the prospective tenant is a 'nigger', he'd be arrested

If the redneck is bent on discriminating on the basis of skin color he
could circumvent a future arrest with a tactical reason to not rent.
People may not openly discriminate because of fear of being sued but
that does nothing to change their internal real selves, which is what
needs to change even though that is slow change, harder to achieve and
probably impossible and crazy to expect 6 billion perfect people.

Whether discrimination is based on religion, skin colour, one's
singular status, gender, nationality, or any other criteria, its still
discrimination. Degrees and hurt levels do vary but there is nothing
nice about being on the receiving end.  Its equally unfair to label an
entire Gujarati community as evil for the actions of a few when
language is still the link between a Gujarati Hindu and a Gujarati
Bohra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohra

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread sur...@hserus.net
It is almost like gujarat is, for muslims, the equivalent of the deep south for 
negroes back in the 60s.  Ask a goan catholic friend of mine, who tried to rent 
there and was told 'they dont rent to muslims'.  Went through a different 
broker to the same landlord but giving him his 'old' hindu name mohan prabhu 
(lots of goan rcs were saraswat brahmins back in portuguese times) and he got 
just that house

In other words, no, not unfair
-- 
srs/nokia e71

-original message-
Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
From: . svaks...@gmail.com
Date: 21-04-2009 08:59

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:54 AM, sur...@hserus.net sur...@hserus.net wrote:
 Owners right?  If today, in birmingham AL, some redneck refused to rent a 
 flat because the prospective tenant is a 'nigger', he'd be arrested

If the redneck is bent on discriminating on the basis of skin color he
could circumvent a future arrest with a tactical reason to not rent.
People may not openly discriminate because of fear of being sued but
that does nothing to change their internal real selves, which is what
needs to change even though that is slow change, harder to achieve and
probably impossible and crazy to expect 6 billion perfect people.

Whether discrimination is based on religion, skin colour, one's
singular status, gender, nationality, or any other criteria, its still
discrimination. Degrees and hurt levels do vary but there is nothing
nice about being on the receiving end.  Its equally unfair to label an
entire Gujarati community as evil for the actions of a few when
language is still the link between a Gujarati Hindu and a Gujarati
Bohra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohra

-- 
.





Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Venky TV
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:35 PM, sur...@hserus.net sur...@hserus.net wrote:
 Your right stops right where it conflicts with another person's rights.

True.

 Organized policies of discrimination such as vegetarian only buildings are an 
 example.

Don't buy that.  You have no rights to another man's property.  If the
owner allows you to rent his property, it is quite definitely a
privilege and not a right.  And the fact that a redneck in Birmingham
would be arrested for refusing to rent his flat to a black man does
not automatically make it right either. Would he be arrested for
running a no-pets-allowed property?  No?  Now, that is what I would
term illegal discrimination.

It is also not a violation of your rights if you are quoted an
exorbitant price for the same property which another person gets
quoted a much lesser price for unless it is also a violation for a
landlord to lower his rent because he happens to like the tenant.  You
might as well make it illegal to like one person more than another.
That is, after all, discrimination too.

Organized discrimination (not including state-sponsored ones) is no
different from personal discrimination.  Sure, it is even more unfair
and extremely ugly.  But it is not a rights violation any more than
personal discrimination is as long as it applies to private property.

Venky (the Second).

-- 
One hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-20 Thread Vinayak Hegde
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Venky TV venky...@gmail.com wrote:
 Organized discrimination (not including state-sponsored ones) is no
 different from personal discrimination.  Sure, it is even more unfair
 and extremely ugly.

On a slightly different tangent
What I find very interesting is the differentiation in discrimination
of different kinds in the media. For example, I see the reservation
policies followed by the current congress government/short-lived VP
Singh (though BJP / third front aren't any better - they are probably
worse) as damaging to society as much as the
Godhra/Kandamal/Anti-sikh/Anti-UP riots in
Gujarat/Orissa/Delhi/Mumbai. The only difference seems that in one
case the effect of discrimination are more longer term and less
visible (gory sequences of beating up people / burning up shops makes
more compelling viewing than students missing better opportunities for
better education). Also one is mostly class-based / caste based rather
than religion-based.

-- Vinayak



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread Thaths
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:
 I was almost compelled to put out a request here because we are finding it a
 problem to find apartments in Jayanagar/Lalbagh area.This is owing to the
 condition that only vegetarian tenants are required. While we don't cook
 non-veg in our home usually, we do have friends over which is when non-veg
 is cooked.
 In a few cases, I have even been told that Muslims will not be rented out
 apartments.

Interesting piece in the WaPo today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/18/AR2009041800792_pf.html

India's Muslims See Bias in Housing
Recent Increase Is Blamed on Islamist Terrorist Attacks in Mumbai Last Fall

By Emily Wax
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, April 19, 2009

MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a
Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that
overlooked a garden in a middle-class neighborhood that was a short
commute to Film City, where many of India's Hindi movies are shot.

She was about to sign the lease when the real estate broker noticed
her surname. He didn't realize that she was Muslim, he said. Then he
rejected her. It was just six weeks after the November Mumbai
terrorist attacks and Indian Muslims were being viewed with suspicion
across the country. He then showed her a grimy one-room tenement in a
Muslim-dominated ghetto. She felt sick to her stomach as she watched
the residents fight over water at a leaky tap in a dark alley.

That night I cried a lot. I was still an outcast in my own country --
even as a secular Muslim with a well-paid job in Bollywood, said
Aslam, who had similar experiences with five other brokers and three
months later is still sleeping on friends' sofas. I'm an Indian. I
love my country. Is it a crime now to be a Muslim in Mumbai?

In the months after the brazen three-day Mumbai terrorist attacks,
stories like Aslam's are common, even among some of the country's most
beloved Bollywood actors, screenwriters and producers in India's most
cosmopolitan city. The accusations of discrimination highlight the
often simmering religious tensions in the world's biggest democracy,
where Muslim celebrities can be feted on the red carpet one minute and
locked out of quality housing the next.

The phenomenon has become known here as renting while Muslim. It
raises questions that go to the heart of India's identity as a secular
democracy that is home to nearly every major religion on the planet.
Although India has a Hindu majority, it also has 150 million Muslims,
one of the largest Muslim communities in the world.

The new generation wants a better India that isn't bogged down in
religious strife, said Junaid Memon, 34, a Muslim Bollywood director
who is trying to promote religious harmony through his films and his
Facebook site. We shouldn't be an India that ghettoizes all Muslims
to apartments near a mosque. This is a real test for modern India.

With national elections across India that began Thursday and last a
month, some Muslim activists and Bollywood film directors are raising
the issue with political parties and trying to form a voting bloc.

This election, we have to talk about housing discrimination against
Muslims, said Zulfi Sayed, a Muslim actor who is outspoken about the
issue and is courting Hindus who agree with him. In a shining India,
this shouldn't be still such a common practice.

Muslims have long served as an important swing vote in India, since
Hindus are increasingly divided among nearly 200 regional parties.
Historically, India's Congress party won elections with the help of
the Muslim vote by running on a platform of promoting religious
diversity. The opposition Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party
has, at times, used anti-Muslim sentiment to court votes while
pledging to keep Hindu heritage alive.

India blames the Pakistan-based Islamist militant group
Lashkar-i-Taiba for the November attack in which 10 gunmen left more
than 170 people dead, including 40 Indian Muslims.

Many Muslims here feared the attacks would unleash cycles of revenge
killing of the sort that have recurred throughout India's modern
history, from the violence of partition between India and Pakistan in
1947 to the 1992 riots in Mumbai. In the days after November's Mumbai
attacks, Muslims from all corners of society united, holding
candlelight vigils with a message to protest terrorism and pledge
loyalty to India. In the end, there was no communal violence.

But across the country, reports of housing discrimination have increased.

Afroz Alam Sahil, 21, a student activist at Jamia Millia Islamia
College in New Delhi, said that more than a dozen students from states
such as Uttar Pradesh and Bihar -- which have large Muslim populations
-- have been unable to find housing since the Mumbai attacks.

Some Muslim friends have dropped out of college because they have
nowhere to stay, Sahil said. There is intense suspicion. 

Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread .
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote:
 MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a
 Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that

Another aspect is the fear of single woman with the most popular
thought being a single women is  dangerous.  This fear (or should i
say discrimination) is pretty stronger than people like to admit and
one landlord almost backed off from showing the space to a woman who I
was helping out.  He agreed to show the space only after I vouched for
her character, never mind that had never met her. I kid you not.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread Thaths
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:25 PM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote:
 MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a
 Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that
 Another aspect is the fear of single woman with the most popular
 thought being a single women is  dangerous.  This fear (or should i
 say discrimination) is pretty stronger than people like to admit and
 one landlord almost backed off from showing the space to a woman who I
 was helping out.  He agreed to show the space only after I vouched for
 her character, never mind that had never met her. I kid you not.

I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and
women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher.
The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were
several people who refused to rent to me with a curt No bachelors, we
have a teenage daughter

Thaths
-- 
   You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel. -- Homer J. Simpson



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread .
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and
 women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher.
 The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were
 several people who refused to rent to me with a curt No bachelors, we
 have a teenage daughter

The weird thing is they are willing to rent to single (fe)males who
are foreigners.  Maybe its the green bucks or the fair skin is
better attitude which reminds me of those matrimonial ads seeking
fair brides.
-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread Vinayak Hegde
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian
sur...@hserus.net wrote:
 Forget single. Get the gujjus out of mumbai and you'd probably have a better 
 Mumbai than most (no wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat - they 
 have a CM they deserve)

Assuming that you are not trolling, how is this statement of branding
the whole community any different than branding the Muslim community
as fomentors of terrorism. The Gujarathi community (like the Parsee
community) has been an integral part of Mumbai for several years.
Stripping them out of Mumbai would make it lose it's character (what
no dandiya ?). Mumbai would not be the same without the
entrepreneurial spirit of the Gujarathi.

 Mahatma Gandhi is a long forgotten concept there. Greed, hypocrisy, crude 
 hatred etc etc - the entire state of Gujarat is a danger to modern India, as 
 its people's minds have been indoctrinated to religious hatred.

The same can be said of the Congress as well. MG is only remembered
when naming roads in any city or putting up statues.

-- Vinayak
(Who loves Gujarathi food - undhiyu, thepla etc and realizes his
friends are muslim only due to awesome meat-based cuisine they have -
Find me one person who doesn't love biryani :)



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread Suresh Ramasubramanian

Not trolling as such. Merely taking one exaggerated attitude and combating
it with another.  That article is accurate enough about gujjus and 'veg
only buildings'.  And any state with bjp in power for long enough has them
survive only because bigotry is actively encouraged and indoctrinated.

That's a fact that has to be faced.  Arresting some of those 'building
society presidents' if they try to enforce a 'no meat' type policy might
prove interesting.

Vinayak Hegde [20/04/09 09:05 +0530]:

Assuming that you are not trolling, how is this statement of branding
the whole community any different than branding the Muslim community
as fomentors of terrorism. The Gujarathi community (like the Parsee
community) has been an integral part of Mumbai for several years.
Stripping them out of Mumbai would make it lose it's character (what
no dandiya ?). Mumbai would not be the same without the
entrepreneurial spirit of the Gujarathi.
-- Vinayak
(Who loves Gujarathi food - undhiyu, thepla etc and realizes his
friends are muslim only due to awesome meat-based cuisine they have -
Find me one person who doesn't love biryani :)




Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread Vinayak Hegde
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:04 AM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote:
 I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and
 women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher.
 The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were
 several people who refused to rent to me with a curt No bachelors, we
 have a teenage daughter

 The weird thing is they are willing to rent to single (fe)males who
 are foreigners.  Maybe its the green bucks or the fair skin is
 better attitude which reminds me of those matrimonial ads seeking
 fair brides.

Even cavemen preferred blondes[1]

-- Vinayak

1. http://www.dailycardinal.com/article/19853



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread .
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian
sur...@hserus.net wrote:
 Not trolling as such. Merely taking one exaggerated attitude and combating
 it with another.  That article is accurate enough about gujjus and 'veg
 only buildings'.  And any state with bjp in power for long enough has them
 survive only because bigotry is actively encouraged and indoctrinated.

Arent all politicians being their dis-honest hypocritical selves, not
to forget that some common folks are equally (if not more)
politically diplomatic and equally repulsive for the same reasons that
politicians are disliked.

 That's a fact that has to be faced.  Arresting some of those 'building
 society presidents' if they try to enforce a 'no meat' type policy might
 prove interesting.

As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right
to decide who he/she rents to.  If the 'no meat' policy should not be
enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say eat meat to be
considered one of us.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread .
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Vinayak Hegde vinay...@gmail.com wrote:
 Even cavemen preferred blondes[1]

*sigh* some things will never change *sigh*

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread sur...@hserus.net
Owners right?  If today, in birmingham AL, some redneck refused to rent a flat 
because the prospective tenant is a 'nigger', he'd be arrested

-- 
srs/nokia e71

-original message-
Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
From: . svaks...@gmail.com
Date: 20-04-2009 09:30

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian
sur...@hserus.net wrote:
 Not trolling as such. Merely taking one exaggerated attitude and combating
 it with another.  That article is accurate enough about gujjus and 'veg
 only buildings'.  And any state with bjp in power for long enough has them
 survive only because bigotry is actively encouraged and indoctrinated.

Arent all politicians being their dis-honest hypocritical selves, not
to forget that some common folks are equally (if not more)
politically diplomatic and equally repulsive for the same reasons that
politicians are disliked.

 That's a fact that has to be faced.  Arresting some of those 'building
 society presidents' if they try to enforce a 'no meat' type policy might
 prove interesting.

As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right
to decide who he/she rents to.  If the 'no meat' policy should not be
enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say eat meat to be
considered one of us.

-- 
.





Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread Pranesh Prakash
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:30, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:
 As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right
 to decide who he/she rents to.  If the 'no meat' policy should not be
 enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say eat meat to be
 considered one of us.

Forget about owners' rights.  That's secondary.  I think it first
needs to be established that an individual has the right to be
repulsed by dead animals.  I'm not sure people are in agreement on
that.

(On that note, that that right to be repulsed being used as a proxy
is repulsive goes without saying.  Or goes with being said in the last
sentence.)



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-04-19 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Mon, 20/4/09, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote:

 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 8:08 AM
 Forget single. Get the gujjus out of
 mumbai and you'd probably have a better Mumbai than most (no
 wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat - they have
 a CM they deserve)
 
 Mahatma Gandhi is a long forgotten concept there. Greed,
 hypocrisy, crude hatred etc etc - the entire state of
 Gujarat is a danger to modern India, as its people's minds
 have been indoctrinated to religious hatred.
 
     srs


How I agree!

It's a totally toxic state now, and the Gujaratis in Mumbai seem to be 
mirroring the native Gujarati. 

Isn't it ironic that after campaigning against all not from Maharashtra, the 
Thackerays should now find so much in common with the Gujarati? Presumably the 
Gujarati vote in Mumbai goes to the BJP, not to the Shiv Sena.

What happened to the Gujarat and the Gujarati that we knew forty years, even 
twenty years ago? This shows what can happen under 'soft' Hindutva, and under 
the 'good' Taliban. 


  Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to 
http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-17 Thread Biju Chacko
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram
 r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote:
 While on bisi bele bath - I am convinced that it's the only food known
 to man that looks identical while entering and exiting the digestive
 system.

 ...and to think i spent a whole month learning to cook this properly. Gah !!!

I rather like it myself.

:-)

-- b



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-16 Thread ekta bahl
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com wrote:



 That was much much later and it wasn't hostel food. It was a canteen
 in the training centre that we had to pay for independent of the mess.
 It had such a creative name. A canteen. At law school. Named Just
 Foods.



Many many years ago, the NLS girls hostel used to serve Chinese food (i.e.
Noodles and some gravy), which was fairly edible and was one meal that I
used to look forward to.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-16 Thread .
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram
r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote:
 While on bisi bele bath - I am convinced that it's the only food known
 to man that looks identical while entering and exiting the digestive
 system.

...and to think i spent a whole month learning to cook this properly. Gah !!!
-- 
.



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-14 Thread lukhman_khan
 Maybe not.  Sometimes people will rather make a loss and keep a
 certain segment of people out.
 For instance, here in Nairobi if you are an
 indian you can get quoted a lower rent for housing
 in certain parts of the city (where there is
 a high concentration of indians) than if you are
 an african looking to live there.

This certainly defies the logic that says An indian would like to live near 
more indians

This fits the logic Indians love to live in African dominated housing colonies 
and vice versa

Lukhman.






Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-14 Thread Venkatesh Hariharan
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com wrote:
The highlight of the week was something called pepper chicken but
it could have been blackened crow for all I know.

Why does one need to blacken crows?

Venky



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-14 Thread Venkatesh Hariharan
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Venkatesh Hariharan ven...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 Why does one need to blacken crows?

 I assume crow meat isn't black.

In that case, I assume the correct term would be charred crow.

Venky

trying desperately to switch off weekend, nitpicking mode



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-14 Thread Charles Haynes
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Blackened is also a common Cajun/Creole method of cooking.

It's cajun, but not creole. Creole and cajun are quite distinct one
from the other, creole being more french influenced.

Blackened redfish... yum.

-- Charles



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-14 Thread lukhman_khan
 On Friday 13 Mar 2009 9:17:54 am lukhman_khan wrote:
  I am from a muslim family *and* also love non-veg food.

 Gosh!  You're a Muslim! Cheee!

The word *from* was used. Doesnt necessarily mean I also accept that faith. I 
am an atheist. Whenever I fill forms I still mention Islam as religion. 

 And you like non veg? Cheee!

yea cheeekan also.

Lukhma




Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Deepa Mohan
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote:

 Deepa Mohan wrote, [on 3/13/2009 10:50 AM]:

  To set the thread adrift..Udhay..how many parent-child members are there
 on
  Silk?

 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/silk-list/message/25020

 Udhay
 --



Aha, I like being unique in SOME way! I bet I am the only example where
there's a mother-in-law and son-in-law on the list! But DnA, as Derek and
Anjana call themselves, are lurkers, and more likely to be so as their
daughter arrives on the scene in May.

You mention someone who briefly on this list. How many people have
unsubscribed from this list?

Deepa.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Nikhil Mehra
 Hoo, boy, this started for me while still in the Institute, with opinion
 fiercely divided between SI and NI food. Both felt the other was inedible,
 and there was no meeting ground. East and West India stayed strictly out of
 this 'food fight'.

 Ironically, we kept getting excluded from apartments for rent when we were
 looking for these, because of the fear of Bengali food.


Err... what is north indian food? My mom's Kashmiri and my dad's punjabi,
and they have  such varied tastes that no one could convince me that their
food habits could fall under the same category. Similarly with south indian
food. Shoot me before putting a morsel of bissi bele baath in my mouth. But
i'll fight you to death  for a simple idli vada from MTR.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Fri, 13/3/09, Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 12:35 PM
  Hoo, boy, this started for me
 while still in the Institute, with opinion
  fiercely divided between SI and NI food. Both felt the
 other was inedible,
  and there was no meeting ground. East and West India
 stayed strictly out of
  this 'food fight'.
 
  Ironically, we kept getting excluded from apartments
 for rent when we were
  looking for these, because of the fear of Bengali
 food.
 
 
 Err... what is north indian food? My mom's Kashmiri and my
 dad's punjabi,
 and they have  such varied tastes that no one could
 convince me that their
 food habits could fall under the same category. Similarly
 with south indian
 food. Shoot me before putting a morsel of bissi bele baath
 in my mouth. But
 i'll fight you to death  for a simple idli vada from
 MTR.

Right - none of the yobs from IIT Delhi or IIT Kanpur could stand idli vada; 
the fact that hostel cuisine differs in some remarkable way from MTR might have 
had something to do with it. And no, there was no bissi bele baath; the closest 
we could get to that would have been bissi bele hooli anna, staunchly, proudly 
Tam to an, er, well, a man, and there was no way that could pass the Mess 
Committee.

If you want a Mason-Dixon Line, and that's what comes of freely allowing 
lawyers on board, it was sambhar. You lined up on one side or the other. Simple 
as that. And hostel sambhar, having gone from solid state to liquid during the 
preparation, hung over the hostel as a cloud for er, many hours after 
ingestion, for reasons that may not require much explication. That was the 
overwhelming memory retained by many permanently shocked olfactory systems of 
life in the Institute.



  Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to 
http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Sumant Srivathsan

 Right - none of the yobs from IIT Delhi or IIT Kanpur could stand idli
 vada; the fact that hostel cuisine differs in some remarkable way from MTR
 might have had something to do with it. And no, there was no bissi bele
 baath; the closest we could get to that would have been bissi bele hooli
 anna, staunchly, proudly Tam to an, er, well, a man, and there was no way
 that could pass the Mess Committee.


Ahem. IIT Kanpur, Class of 1999. The reason the 'yobs' can't stand it is
because they were made in such Godawful fashion that they were virtually
inedible. Those who hadn't really tasted the idlis and vadas before were
given the worst introduction possible. First impressions and all that. It
helped to make friends with Southie faculty on campus - with a nice variety
in place so one could eat good food. Screw the Mess Committee and all that.
Me, I'm Tam, and I had my contacts.

If you want a Mason-Dixon Line, and that's what comes of freely allowing
 lawyers on board, it was sambhar. You lined up on one side or the other.
 Simple as that. And hostel sambhar, having gone from solid state to liquid
 during the preparation, hung over the hostel as a cloud for er, many hours
 after ingestion, for reasons that may not require much explication. That was
 the overwhelming memory retained by many permanently shocked olfactory
 systems of life in the Institute.


Sambar is the easiest thing to make, and the Northies find unique and
imaginative ways to screw it up. What should be a lentil preparation becomes
a tepid, watery, tamarind-flavoured concoction with all of yesterday's
leftover veggies floating about in it. How could anyone enjoy a cuisine that
was so brutally misrepresented?

-- 
Sumant Srivathsan
http://sumants.blogspot.com


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Suresh Ramasubramanian
Did anybody at all ever find ANY iit mess food at all that was worth feeding to 
dogs without being accused of animal cruelty?

Not an IIT-ian, but stayed on IIT campuses for a few days, a time or two (mood 
indigo and such)

 Sambar is the easiest thing to make, and the Northies find unique and
 imaginative ways to screw it up. What should be a lentil preparation
 becomes
 a tepid, watery, tamarind-flavoured concoction with all of yesterday's
 leftover veggies floating about in it. How could anyone enjoy a cuisine
 that
 was so brutally misrepresented?
 
 --
 Sumant Srivathsan
 http://sumants.blogspot.com




Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Fri, 13/3/09, Sumant Srivathsan suma...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Sumant Srivathsan suma...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 1:05 PM
 
  Right - none of the yobs from IIT Delhi or IIT Kanpur
 could stand idli
  vada; the fact that hostel cuisine differs in some
 remarkable way from MTR
  might have had something to do with it. And no, there
 was no bissi bele
  baath; the closest we could get to that would have
 been bissi bele hooli
  anna, staunchly, proudly Tam to an, er, well, a man,
 and there was no way
  that could pass the Mess Committee.
 
 
 Ahem. IIT Kanpur, Class of 1999. The reason the 'yobs'
 can't stand it is
 because they were made in such Godawful fashion that they
 were virtually
 inedible. Those who hadn't really tasted the idlis and
 vadas before were
 given the worst introduction possible. First impressions
 and all that. It
 helped to make friends with Southie faculty on campus -
 with a nice variety
 in place so one could eat good food. Screw the Mess
 Committee and all that.
 Me, I'm Tam, and I had my contacts.
 
 If you want a Mason-Dixon Line, and that's what comes of
 freely allowing
  lawyers on board, it was sambhar. You lined up on one
 side or the other.
  Simple as that. And hostel sambhar, having gone from
 solid state to liquid
  during the preparation, hung over the hostel as a
 cloud for er, many hours
  after ingestion, for reasons that may not require much
 explication. That was
  the overwhelming memory retained by many permanently
 shocked olfactory
  systems of life in the Institute.
 
 
 Sambar is the easiest thing to make, and the Northies find
 unique and
 imaginative ways to screw it up. What should be a lentil
 preparation becomes
 a tepid, watery, tamarind-flavoured concoction with all of
 yesterday's
 leftover veggies floating about in it. How could anyone
 enjoy a cuisine that
 was so brutally misrepresented?
 
 -- 
 Sumant Srivathsan
 http://sumants.blogspot.com

Ever heard of preaching to the choir? For reasons that I shall not go into, I 
hold sambhar, not to mention bisi bele bhaath, ambure and other delights, close 
to ambrosia, and I am permitted to say so.

I'm reporting as honestly as possible what transpired at the scene of the 
accident. What lent poignancy to the whole situation was the domination of the 
Mess Committee by L. Sankaran et al. Our opinion of the proceedings, an opinion 
commonly adhered to by both South and North (the verb 'held' is deprecated in 
this connection for reasons soon to be apparent), is summed up by what the Mess 
Secretary's initial was converted to, in daily parlance. Sinister designation, 
that, Mess Secretary.

Udhay reminds me that Silk List is publicly archived, so I shall omit detail 
(nearly said 'eschew' and gagged), since I don't want a Czech car-maker to sue 
me for violation of trade-mark.




  Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to 
http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Fri, 13/3/09, Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net wrote:

 From: Suresh Ramasubramanian sur...@hserus.net
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 1:17 PM
 Did anybody at all ever find ANY iit
 mess food at all that was worth feeding to dogs without
 being accused of animal cruelty?
 
 Not an IIT-ian, but stayed on IIT campuses for a few days,
 a time or two (mood indigo and such)
 
  Sambar is the easiest thing to make, and the Northies
 find unique and
  imaginative ways to screw it up. What should be a
 lentil preparation
  becomes
  a tepid, watery, tamarind-flavoured concoction with
 all of yesterday's
  leftover veggies floating about in it. How could
 anyone enjoy a cuisine
  that
  was so brutally misrepresented?
  
  --
  Sumant Srivathsan

BTW, I fail to understand why the horrors of IIT hostel life, and for that 
matter, their mess life, should have been visited on declared neutrals 
(N-E-U-T-R-A-L, for the benefit of would-be wags). This was an opportunity to 
make a clean break, to make a fresh start in life. Did they take it? No; and 
therefore the fog that hung over the hostels, especially thick in consistency 
nearest what the Brits term the facilities.
  http://sumants.blogspot.com
 
 
 


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Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Sumant Srivathsan

 Did anybody at all ever find ANY iit mess food at all that was worth
 feeding to dogs without being accused of animal cruelty?


Funny you should say this, because here's something that happened in my
first month at IITK and has stuck with me ever since:

Our mess was arranged in two rows of tables with a reasonably broad space
between them. However, it got crowded when the line of people waiting for
food, the stream of people with full plates and mess staff carrying used
plates and fresh food began to mill around during peak mess hours. So, it
was obvious that sooner or later, someone would collide with someone else
and food would hit the floor (as against what used to be food hitting the
ceiling). This happened quite frequently, but on this one occasion, one of
the dogs that inhabited our hostel yard happened to be in the vicinity. He
comes trotting over to the pool of spilt food, sniffs at it, makes a little
noise and trots away. Two more of his buddies follow him, because the mess
staff hasn't gotten around to cleaning it up yet, and they do exactly the
same thing.

It was proof that we were being made to eat food that even dogs wouldn't
touch of their own volition. Of itself, it's quite a silly story to tell,
but young impressionable minds were scarred that night.

But this was before I happened to sample the food at IITB, IITD, BITS Pilani
and a few other places. I usually went back feeling thankful for the food we
were fed in our mess.

-- 
Sumant Srivathsan
http://sumants.blogspot.com


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Fri, 13/3/09, Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Biju Chacko biju.cha...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 4:05 PM
 On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 1:17 PM,
 Suresh Ramasubramanian
 sur...@hserus.net
 wrote:
  Did anybody at all ever find ANY iit mess food at all
 that was worth feeding to dogs without being accused of
 animal cruelty?
 
 I actually have fond memories of the food at the two
 hostels I lived in:
 
 * Mar Ivanios College, Trivandrum
 * MIT, Manipal
 
 While grumbling was mandatory, I recall most of my
 messmates hogging
 madly on most days.
 
 -- b


Well, uh, one man's meat being another's poison is OK, I guess, unless linked 
in some unlikely manner to the immediate previous posts.  


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Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread ss
On Friday 13 Mar 2009 9:17:54 am lukhman_khan wrote:
 I am from a muslim family *and* also love non-veg food.

Gosh!  You're a Muslim! Cheee! 
And you like non veg? Cheee!

shiv



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Deepa Mohan
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 5:37 PM, ss cybers...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Friday 13 Mar 2009 9:17:54 am lukhman_khan wrote:
  I am from a muslim family *and* also love non-veg food.

 Gosh!  You're a Muslim! Cheee!
 And you like non veg? Cheee!



And you eat milk products? Cheese!

Sorry Shiv, just couldn't resist that.

Deepa.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Ramakrishnan Sundaram
2009/3/13 Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.com:

 food. Shoot me before putting a morsel of bissi bele baath in my mouth. But

While on bisi bele bath - I am convinced that it's the only food known
to man that looks identical while entering and exiting the digestive
system.

Ram



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Ramakrishnan Sundaram
2009/3/13 Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in:

 nearest what the Brits term the facilities.

They termed it the bog, actually. Please do not think about the
appropriateness of the term.

Ram



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Fri, 13/3/09, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 8:06 PM
 2009/3/13 Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in:
 
  nearest what the Brits term the facilities.
 
 They termed it the bog, actually. Please do not think about
 the
 appropriateness of the term.
 
 Ram


Bogs, but singular in bog-simple, I believe.

Yes, going into the appropriateness takes us into difficult places. 

About facilities, I was just trying to spare your delicate feelings. What a 
waste!


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Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Deepa Mohan
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 2009/3/13 Nikhil Mehra nikhil.mehra...@gmail.com:

  food. Shoot me before putting a morsel of bissi bele baath in my mouth.
 But

 While on bisi bele bath - I am convinced that it's the only food known
 to man that looks identical while entering and exiting the digestive
 system.

 Ram


Ram...thank you for this delightful image, which will stay with me for ever
and have me giggling uncontrollably the next time I sit down at a wedding
meal.

But.have you forgotten haggis?

Actually, pate de foie gras would also qualify,  espcially as it IS part of
the digestive system of another creature, since one must include the liver.


Deepa.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Deepa Mohan
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram r.sunda...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 2009/3/13 Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in:

  nearest what the Brits term the facilities.

 They termed it the bog, actually. Please do not think about the
 appropriateness of the term.

 Ram



Yes...for a long time, I could NOT say that I was blogging regularly...

Deepa.


Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Gautam John
Speaking of mess food, I spent one unfortunate year at the NLS hostel
and have no idea how they could produce food that was as bad as it
was. The highlight of the week was something called pepper chicken but
it could have been blackened crow for all I know. I lived on a diet of
Romanov and Randy Reddy's Chicken Kebabs. And then I very conveniently
developed an 'allergy' that required me to live at home.

The things we did to find moderately edible food

Nikhil and Badri will have more to add.




-- 
Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Fri, 13/3/09, Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Friday, 13 March, 2009, 10:46 PM
 Speaking of mess food, I spent one
 unfortunate year at the NLS hostel
 and have no idea how they could produce food that was as
 bad as it
 was. The highlight of the week was something called pepper
 chicken but
 it could have been blackened crow for all I know. I lived
 on a diet of
 Romanov and Randy Reddy's Chicken Kebabs. And then I very
 conveniently
 developed an 'allergy' that required me to live at home.
 
 The things we did to find moderately edible food
 
 Nikhil and Badri will have more to add.
 
 
 
 
 -- 
 Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org

Stone the crows!

And here we were, visiting privileged relatives studying there, and deciding 
that it wasn't any point inviting them home for a home meal, when they had 
chefs dishing out Chinese at hostel - at gasp hostel! - and you mean they 
were starving all the while?

No wonder they aren't talking to us any more!




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Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Gautam John
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote:

 And here we were, visiting privileged relatives studying there, and deciding 
 that it wasn't any point inviting them home for a home meal, when they had 
 chefs dishing out Chinese at hostel - at gasp hostel! - and you mean they 
 were starving all the while?

That was much much later and it wasn't hostel food. It was a canteen
in the training centre that we had to pay for independent of the mess.
It had such a creative name. A canteen. At law school. Named Just
Foods.

-- 
Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org



Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Sat, 14/3/09, Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Gautam John gkj...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Saturday, 14 March, 2009, 12:37 AM
 On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM,
 Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in
 wrote:
 
  And here we were, visiting privileged relatives
 studying there, and deciding that it wasn't any point
 inviting them home for a home meal, when they had chefs
 dishing out Chinese at hostel - at gasp hostel! -
 and you mean they were starving all the while?
 
 That was much much later and it wasn't hostel food. It was
 a canteen
 in the training centre that we had to pay for independent
 of the mess.
 It had such a creative name. A canteen. At law school.
 Named Just
 Foods.
 
 -- 
 Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org


DM Level 3.


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Re: [silk] Need some help

2009-03-13 Thread Badri Natarajan
 Speaking of mess food, I spent one unfortunate year at the NLS hostel

 The things we did to find moderately edible food

 Nikhil and Badri will have more to add.

The Sunday morning breakfasts (toast, butter, jam, eggs) was actually
pretty decent, although it was something of an effort to wake up in time
for it.

The rest..well, I stayed in the hostel all 5 years, but after year 1, I
ate there about as frequently as Gautam (who had actually moved by then).
I understand there are many more options now, but ten years ago, there
just wasn't much in Nagarbhavi - I haven't been back to Bangalore in years
but I think I will still be recognized by the guys at the local shop and
New Shanti Sagar in Vijaynagar.

Badri



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