[Talk-de] Androhung von Benutzersperren für Verklebe-Ideologie
Hallo, leider kommt es immer wieder zu Changeset-Diskussionen wie hier: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/63602349 Irgendein Neuling mappt irgendwas mit "zusammengeklebten" Flächen, irgendeiner meckert dran rum, dann kommen flohoff und OF0 und hauen noch obendrauf, weil sie ihren privaten Kreuzzug führen, und zurück bleibt ein Neuling mit einem Riesen-Fragezeichen im Gesicht, der gar nicht versteht, was er da ausgelöst hat. Das ist nicht gut. Wenn diese Debatte nicht projektweit oder wenigstens deutschlandweit vernünftig geführt und das Problem nicht gelöst werden kann, dann sollte man auch nicht versuchen, "seine" Ansicht ungefragt armen Newbies aufs Auge zu drücken, nach dem Motto, die können sich ja nicht wehren. Ich werde Benutzer, die sich in solche Changeset-Diskussionen verzetteln, künftig deswegen sperren. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] OSM Hackweekend im Oktober in Karlsruhe
Hallo, On 20.08.2018 12:21, Christine Karch wrote: > im Oktober (20./21.) findet wieder ein OSM Hackweekend in Karlsruhe > statt. Hier die Details und die (unverbindliche aber hilfreiche) Anmeldung: Bitte beachten, dass es diesmal eine Raumänderung gibt. Details auf der Wikiseite, und alle, die sich angemeldet haben, haben das auch nochmal per Mail bekommen. Wer am Wochenende noch nichts vorhat kann sich gern noch eintragen, jetzt ist genug Platz ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Grenzen und ihre Namen
Hallo, On 10/14/2018 09:32 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > * name=x ist sehr unnötig, gerade weil die Grenze zu mehreren Objekten > gehören kann, ebenso lehne ich "country:left" und "country:right" und > den ganzen Klumpatsch ab. Die Relationen enthalten diese Information. Damit meine ich natürlich nur alle Namen der Form "WasAufDerEinenSeiteIst - WasAufDerAnderenSeiteIst". Wenn eine Grenze den Namen "Kaiser-Franz-Linie" hätte, dann wäre das was anderes! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Grenzen und ihre Namen
Hallo, On 10/13/2018 11:50 AM, Martin Scholtes wrote: > naja. Ich hätte da mal wieder eine Frage. Derzeit verbessere ich die > Straßengeometrie im Grenzbereich DE-LU/RP-SL und da sind mir die Way´s > der admin_level=2 Relationen aufgefallen die Namen tragen. Sogar ich > mehrfacher Sprachausführung. Als Beispiel dieser Way: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/448544023 Ich finde das unnötig, und zwar * boundary=administrative *könnte* man machen, um anderen Mappern, die über den Way stolpern, einen Hinweis zu geben. * admin_level=x ist schon doof, denn so ein Way kann ja zu mehreren Grenzen gehören. Konvention ist, dann den kleinsten Adminlevel zu taggen. Man kann es aber auch ganz lassen, es ergibt sich ja aus den Relationen. * name=x ist sehr unnötig, gerade weil die Grenze zu mehreren Objekten gehören kann, ebenso lehne ich "country:left" und "country:right" und den ganzen Klumpatsch ab. Die Relationen enthalten diese Information. * und wenn man es dann noch mehrsprachig macht, dann wird es wirklich *total* unnötig. Ich würde jetzt keinen Feldzug starten und diese Tags löschen, aber wenn ich so eine Grenze anfasse und editiere, würde ich sie am Ende nur noch mit einem boundary=administrative, maximal einem admin_level ausstatten und in die richtigen Relationen einsortieren. In der Vergangenheit gab es immer mal wieder Mapper, die diese Namen gesetzt haben, weil es ihnen die Qualitätskontrolle erleichtert. Früher hatte Mapnik auch noch die Eigenschaft, an *alle* Linien Namen zu schreiben, so dass diese name-Tags der einzige Weg waren, die Grenzen zu beschriften. Aber das sollte m.E. auch über die Relationen geschehen, wenn jemand das will. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[OSM-talk] "Travel like a KLocal" series of printed maps
Hi, someone has written to DWG because they were disappointed with a "Travel like a Local" map they bought on Amazon. Apparently there's an author there named "Maxwell Fox" who churns out these "Books" which promise, among other things: "The map is very detailed and it will not only give you all the available roads and routes, but also the essential information to make your Luxembourg City (Luxembourg) vacation unforgettable." "In the map you can see all the available means of transport, bus stops and routes so you can always know how to get everywhere." "And because we know that a vacation is not only about the roads and busses, the map gives you many options for eating, drinking and having a good time!" "We carefully marked all the restaurants, bars and pubs so you can always find one that is nearby." "In the Luxembourg City (Luxembourg) map you will also find the best places to go shopping, the most famous and must-see sights, churches and more." "And if an emergency comes up, there are markings of police stations and hospitals everywhere for your convenience." "Each kind of marking has a different color so you can easily navigate around the map and find exactly what you’re looking for within seconds." Is this a new phenomenon? Has anyone seen any of these maps, or seen a report about them? The Amazon listing doesn't say the data comes from OSM, but I guess the printed work must, otherwise the complainant would not have written to us... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] "Travel like a Local" series of printed maps
(sorry, typo on subject in first message) Hi, someone has written to DWG because they were disappointed with a "Travel like a Local" map they bought on Amazon. Apparently there's an author there named "Maxwell Fox" who churns out these "Books" which promise, among other things: "The map is very detailed and it will not only give you all the available roads and routes, but also the essential information to make your Luxembourg City (Luxembourg) vacation unforgettable." "In the map you can see all the available means of transport, bus stops and routes so you can always know how to get everywhere." "And because we know that a vacation is not only about the roads and busses, the map gives you many options for eating, drinking and having a good time!" "We carefully marked all the restaurants, bars and pubs so you can always find one that is nearby." "In the Luxembourg City (Luxembourg) map you will also find the best places to go shopping, the most famous and must-see sights, churches and more." "And if an emergency comes up, there are markings of police stations and hospitals everywhere for your convenience." "Each kind of marking has a different color so you can easily navigate around the map and find exactly what you’re looking for within seconds." Is this a new phenomenon? Has anyone seen any of these maps, or seen a report about them? The Amazon listing doesn't say the data comes from OSM, but I guess the printed work must, otherwise the complainant would not have written to us... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?
Hi, On 10/07/2018 11:07 PM, john whelan wrote: > So thoughts ladies and gentlemen? Someone attempted to re-develop JOSM (as "JOSM-ng") in 2008 and even then (with JOSM having a fraction of the features it has today) it didn't get anywhere ;) I recently (on josm-dev) said that the actual code is not the essence of JOSM, but the UI and workflow. I said that the actual language in which it was written is irrelevant and that it could probably rewritten if need be. But this was an opinion not widely shared among other participants of the mailing list, and I guess they know what they're talking about. Writing a new piece of software that fully mimicks an existing program is likely to be easier than developing a new editor from scratch, but it's still a lot of work, and I don't currently see the need. I guess there will be workarounds for many of the issues you mention, and some issues are not work-around-able - for example, if your IT admin decides that you should not be able to install software locally for security reasons, then it is hard to envisage any kind of "offline editor" working well. C# won't save you here. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] What is people's experience with OSM import software?
Hi, On 04.10.2018 00:20, Kevin Kenny wrote: > The schema as given by 'osm2pgsql' has first-class relations only in the > 'rels' table, which is one of the 'slim' tables. The maintainers > deprecate using those in the strongest possible terms. Well, "strongest possible terms" is perhaps not the most fitting summary of https://github.com/openstreetmap/osm2pgsql/issues/230... as has been said there, quite a few people "mis"use osm2pgsql in that fashion, and if they ever were to introduce a breaking change you can simply stick with the osm2pgsql that you have... But answering your question about alternatives: * I have successfully used imposm3 to populate planet-wide databases and keep them current with diffs, and the overall performance was sligthly better than osm2pgsql's (with imposm having some features that osm2pgsql doesn't and vice versa), but what osm2pgsql does with its planet_osm_rels table imposm does with a file-based database and I have no idea how difficult it would be to establish your first-class relation table. * The "PG Snapshot" schema used by Osmosis provides an interesting concept of an "action" table which is filled upon the application of a diff and allows you to run arbitrary code on newly-added or modified things in the course of an update. The performance of Osmosis is, however, far worse than osm2pgsql or imposm in my experience, and the PG Snapshot schema is probably much too close to "raw OSM" for a mainly rendering use case. * If I wanted to achieve what you describe, I would likely either modify osm2pgsql to do what I want, or run stock osm2pgsql and devise a *separate* process, likely based on (py)osmium, that extracts the information I need from a planet file or diff, and somehow adds that to my PostGIS database. That way, I would continue to be able to use osm2pgsql for what it does best, and I could still add my special processing on top. Since my special processing is likely to only need a fraction of the data, and osmium is quite efficient at filtering, the risk of running into performance issues should be limited. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Tool update from HOT: MapCampaigner
Hi, On 01.10.2018 03:28, Nate Smith wrote: > Last week we > released a new version of a data quality monitoring tool I would like to recommend that you don't use the term "quality monitoring tool" for this since you're measuring quantity not quality. At best, I'd call it a tool that monitors "richness" or "completeness". Simply counting how many features there are and how many of a pre-defined list of tags each one has shouldn't be called "quality monitoring", because there will be situations where the OpenStreetMap community requests of project managers (who your web site claims to be targeted at) that they implement some form of quality assurance; calling your statistics tool a "quality monitoring" tool runs the risk of making these people believe that quality requirements can be fulfilled by ensuring that enough tags are set, which is definitely not what the wider community would regard as a suitable quality assurance for a humanitarian data entry project. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Proximity
Hi, On 29.09.2018 01:59, john whelan wrote: > I thank Fredrick for his comments as well. If a more refined solution > is required then there is enough information given to make a start coding. I know Perl isn't what people use these days but just to show that it really isn't rocket science (and doesn't require elaborate routing engines for that scale) I've made a modified version of the Perl script and checked it into the SVN directory. That script will take a .osm data file as input and generate a schematic map like http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/ipswich-busstops.png (which depicts Ipswich), where nodes are coloured according to their distance from the nearest bus stop (in this picture, 500 Mercator metres or more means something gets red). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proximity
Hi, On 28.09.2018 23:21, john whelan wrote: > Many cities have had their bus stops imported. And even more cities have their bus stops mapped in the traditional fashion, like, riding a bus and recording where it stops. It's amazing how much you can do with one day pass :) > what else is needed to work it out? Many standard routing tools (Graphhopper, OSRM, Valhalla) can do "isochrones", that is essentially what you are looking for for one single bus stop. You would simply run that for every bus stop and join the results together. Since you don't need instant results and you don't want to run this for a whole country, the algorithm to use is really simple - build a routing graph, annotate each bus stop node with a travel time of "0", and travel outwards along all reachable nodes, increasing your travel time by the time it takes to walk the edge you are using, until you reach a node that already has a smaller time annotation than you have accumulated. There's a simple Perl implementation in svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/distance_maps that could be used as a basis if Perl is your thing but you could use pg_routing just as well. Having said that: 1. In the concrete example of a hospital, I would expect the local bus operator to create a new bus stop or even change a bus route to accommodate the hospital. Of course this would not work if you wanted to set up a bakery. 2. The existence of a bus stop in OSM does not mean it is actually served by a route; and the existence of a route in OSM that serves the bus stop does not necessarily say what frequency - it could be the school bus that only goes three times a day, or the night bus, or the bus extension to the pool that only goes in summer. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] United Nations World Geospatial Information Congres (UN-GGIM)
Hi, On 09/21/18 10:37, Naveen Francis wrote: > Any participation from openstreetmap community ? For context (for those who can't view youtube videos while at work etc.) https://www.unwgic2018.org/welcome.html "The Congress is aimed to ... enhance the communication, understanding, knowledge and application of geospatial information management to address local, regional and global challenges ... enhance the regional and global geospatial information sharing systems, and crucially, support geospatially enabled sustainable development ..." and "All the geospatial professionals from governments, non-governmental organizations, academic and research institutions and the private sector are cordially invited to participate in the UNWGIC and contribute to the program" Apparently if you sign up "you will receive an email notification indicating whether your registration has been approved". It doesn't say what it takes to get approved. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] 'historic' county boundaries added to the database
Richard,
On 20.09.2018 00:01, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> From 1974 to 1997, the county of Rutland didn't exist.
It's nice to see such a passionate plea for one particular historic
boundary, and pleas like that are what can give rise to the exceptions I
was talking about.
These exceptions do not, however, mean that it's a free-for-all for all
kinds of historic boundaries. I don't know about Rutland - the way you
say it sounds as if it is, and has always been, crystal clear what is
part of Rutland and what is not. But one participant in this thread has
stated that their particular county boundary has changed many times over
the years. I don't know if the people inhabiting the areas that have
changed hands each time kept a stubborn affection for "their *real*
county" just as you describe the people of Rutland to have done. For the
sake of the argument, let's assume there had been a couple of minor
changes to the boundary of "Rutland County Council District Council"
since 1997. Surely your argument which seems to be based on the romantic
"Rutland that people feel in their hearts" could not be applied as a
reason to store "Rutland County Council District Council in the borders
of 1997", plus "Rutland County Council District Council in the borders
of 1999", and also "Rutland County Council District Council in the
borders of 2003"...?
A line needs to be drawn, because otherwise there *will* be people
mapping these things ("for historic interest"), and they won't stop at
historic administrative boundaries; they will include electoral wards of
all EU elections back to god knows when, parish boundaries from 1905,
and school districts for good measure. And each time it will become more
different to maintain the data. How is someone who moves a river to be
more in line with current aerial imagery supposed to know which of the
23 boundaries using that river should be affected and which not?
All the reasons you have listed were based on popular use. You said
things like "pretty much everyone put their address as ...", "no-one
thinks they live in ..." etc.; at the same time such things are often
not very precise and don't easily lend themselves to drawing boundaries.
The "West Hampstead" you mention is mapped as a point - perhaps
precisely because it has no documented administrative boundary to go
with it but is a "property speculator's construct" as you say?
I think that if case-by-case exceptions are made from our "verifiable on
the ground" rule, then at the very least the object in question must be
important enough (an admin boundary that 30.000 people believe to live
in would qualify, an electoral ward that was abolished in 1905 and is
only remembered by those of the age 120+, not so much), and if someone
wants to map it as a relation (which cannot be done in a fuzzy way) then
it must be sufficiently clear where the boundary is because else we'll
have 10 mappers edit-warring over if a certain address still belongs to
the posh neighbourhood of Silver Springs or to its seedy neighbour,
Golden Showers.
Bye
Frederik
--
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Re: [Talk-GB] 'historic' county boundaries added to the database
Hi, On 09/19/2018 06:38 PM, Martin Wynne wrote: > I'm puzzled by this insistence that we can map only that which is > "current or real". You shouldn't, it is one of our basic principles and it's here to stay. Usually people don't say "current or real" but "verifiable on the ground". The fundamental idea goes like this: If two mappers disagree about a feature, they can simply go there and the conflict can be solved immediately. Allowing stuff that is not verifiable on the ground would rob us of this possibility - all of a sudden we'd have to meet in libraries or courthouses or universities to find out who's right. We don't want that, generally. But we are not fundamentalists, and we do allow exceptions. One obvious exception is current administrative boundaries; they are not easily verifiable on the ground but we're making an exception because of their undoubted usefulness. In addition these generally accepted exceptions, there's also a lot of stuff in our database that will not withstand scrutiny and will likely be deleted if someone looks at it with a keen "is this verifiable on the ground" eye. The existence of such data cannot be taken as a sign that our principles are moot. > See for example this node: > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2518973091 > > There is absolutely nothing on the ground. And 1402 is a long time ago > to be current. > > But there is a brown sign directing visitors to it: > > https://goo.gl/maps/LSVnemQ5fxw Yes, you would normally at least map the sign so there's less potential for a dispute. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] 'historic' county boundaries added to the database
Hi, On 18.09.2018 10:04, Dan S wrote: > Though I've no particular expertise to add, this thread has tipped me > in favour of being happy with these boundaries. Colin very rightly > emphasised process - how do we come to some decision rather than > simply expressing our views and then sitting back waiting for it to > erupt again in 18 months? Also, a decision in favour of keeping historic boundaries should explain exactly why an exception was made from the general rule in this case, so that people won't take this as a reason to map historic fiefdoms all over the planet. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-de] OSM auf Arte X:enius
Hi, On 04/25/2018 11:19 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Ein Sendetermin ist noch nicht bekannt, aber ich sage bescheid, sobald > ich was erfahre. https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/078162-009-A/xenius/ ab Minute 17 - ich schau es mir jetzt gleich selber an und hoffe, dass es nicht zu peinlich wird ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-us] NYC Name Vandalism
Hi, On 05.09.2018 03:36, Alan Brown wrote: > Granted, it would be nearly impossible to make this criteria perfect: I think it would already be nearly impossible to make these criteria even *good*. It is easy to come up with a knee-jerk "nobody should be allowed to change the name tag of New York", and many will nod in approval. It seems obvious, doesn't it. Who, then, makes the catalogue of such places? Is only their name tag "protected"? Or also their location? Can the node be moved by a mile, 10 miles, 100 miles? Can the population be changed, and if so, by what amount? > I'd have no idea what would be > offensive in Hungarian, much less Thai; someone could draw something > offensive (like a peeing Android) that would be very hard to catch; > there are places like "Dildo, Newfoundland" that are legitimate. All this is true, and simple regular expression matching will never fix things (the village of Fucking in Austria is a well-known example but the number of names that are legit in one language and offensive in another is high). > But I > don't think it would be all that hard to flag a changelist like this > last vandalism, If you prohibit me from changing the name of New York to "Jewtropolis", I'll just create a city node one block away from it with a slightly higher population, causing it to be rendered with priority. If you start down this road, you will end up not using OSM place names at all but instead relying on a curated data set like Natural Earth, which is a valid decision to make for a cartographer but means taking control away from mappers and giving it to a hand-picked circle of data curators. > At very least, you can force your vandals to be clever to succeed. But is this really what we want - ever more clever vandalism that is ever less likely to be detected? Is it not even *better* to have "obvious" vandalism that we can fix easily? Today, getting "Jewtropolis" written large across OSM for an hour or two is no big deal, nothing to brag about before your cool hacker friends. "So what" is the answer. Do we want to make this into a trophy? Today, the headline is "some asshole put 'Jewtropolis' on OSM" - tomorrow, "clever hacker penetrates OSM defences"? > In our usage, we will scan the names of significant objects for > potentially offensive changes. But it would be good to have some sort > of gateway in the OSM database itself. It is ok for a data consumer to do that. Nobody is hurt if your filters wrongly reject a valid contribution in Africa. It would also be ok to build something that prioritizes things for review. But trying to build some kind of "protection" into the data ingestion at OSM would * impact performance negatively * disenfranchise mappers * bind resources for the constant maintenance of block lists * encourage clever(er) vandalism and hence not be worth it. Bye Ferderik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NYC Name Vandalism
Hi, On 30.08.2018 22:43, Frederik Ramm wrote: > We can only speculate about the motives here Ah, just a security researcher, I guess this makes it ok then? https://reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/9brqx4/this_is_medwedianpresident1_talking_what_i_did/ > frankly my money is on > "attention seeking teenager" Or maybe it is the same guy who's been asked to be more mature here? https://www.reddit.com/r/civclassics/comments/6rxu7p/before_you_leave_medwedianpresident_a_couple/ And what is this: https://archive.is/4NzTp Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] NYC Name Vandalism
Hi, On 08/30/2018 10:20 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote: > A problem here is that it gives us a tremendous black eye in the > press. I wonder how, moving forward, we can lessen the chances of > this sort of hate speech propagating off the project. We can only speculate about the motives here - frankly my money is on "attention seeking teenager" who could just as well have labelled a city the "Weed Capital". Which would not have been hate speech and maybe not reported as widely, but not really any better. > Other projects > have found that having a mandatory review and moderation process for > new users is helpful, Some have, some not; the English Wikipedia, for example, has not, while the German Wikipedia has, to a degree. A move like this would have to be very carefully considered as it binds resources and reduces our ability to attract new mappers (a certain percentage of whom would not make that first hurdle). It is also a technical challenge: If the new signup creates a new object, and before this is reviewed someone else creates the same new object, what happens? If the new signup modifies an object and before the modification is reviewed someone else modifies a different object in a way hat would make both edits clash (e.g. buildings overlap), what happens? If we don't attract enough reviewers and new edits remain unpublished for days or even weeks...? Reducing the possible participation envelope of new mappers is certainly something that can be discussed, but it's not something we should do on a whim, and certainly not to please unspecified and scared "Powers That Be". Perhaps educating our users about the strengths and weaknesses of crowd-sourcing is another option. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Paper/Article about stagnation in OSM
Hi, On 31.07.2018 23:49, Frederik Ramm wrote: > I don't necessarily agree with all that's been written but I found > > http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2053951718790591 > > an interesting read: "The social construction of technological stasis: > The stagnating data structure in OpenStreetMap." Apparently a few people have emailed comments to the author, to which he replies in: http://www.geoweb-studien.nat.fau.de/2018/08/30/response-to-comments-on-the-article-the-social-construction-of-technological-stasis-the-stagnating-data-structure-in-openstreetmap/ in case anyone is interested. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-de] Neues Förderangebot von WMDE für Projekte um OSM - Commons
Hallo, On 30.08.2018 13:13, Simon Poole wrote: > Du unterschätzt den Aufwand den es braucht um so etwas wie Mapillary zu > betreiben um eine bis zwei Grössenordnungen. Z.B. hat es gute 5 Jahre > gebraucht bis der Mapillary Verpixelungsmechanismus auf dem aktuellen, > so weit ich es beurteilen kann, sehr guten, Stand war. Einfach mit > Bildern auf Wikimedia Commons hochladen ist es definitiv nicht getan. Das stimmt, und auch allein schon der Speicher-Aufwand für die Menge von Bildern, die Mapillary hat, ist natürlich enorm. Wenn die sagen würden "hier kann man alle Bilder von Hessen runterladen", zahlen sie vermutlich jedesmal 5 Euro, wenn jemand den Button drückt oder so. Ich sehe ein, dass das nicht leicht ist. Trotzdem - wäre es ein wirklich offenes Projekt, das ein Interesse daran hat, die gesamelten Daten maximaler Nutzung zuzuführen, dann müsste es solche Dumps in irgeneiner Form geben, und auch sowas wie "diff updates", mit der jemand sich eine eigene (Teil-)Sammlung aktuell halten kann. Dadurch, dass jeder Zugriff erzwungenermaßen durch deren API erfolgt, haben sie "den Daumen drauf". Sie können das API jederzeit abschalten - und was ist dann? Ebenfalls ist es wichtig, zu sehen, dass anders als z.B. bei Wikipedia oder OpenStreetMap der Uploader Mapillary ein unbegrenztes Nutzungsrecht einräumt. Wenn sich Mapillary heute entscheidet (z.B. weil sie aufgekauft werden), dass die Bilder ab sofort nicht mehr oder nur gegen Zahlung von Lizenzgebühren verfügbar sind, dann ist das so. Jeder, der heute freiwillig Daten zu Mapillary hochlädt, erhöht den Wert des Bilderschatzes bei Mapillary, der heute schon "nur begrenzt frei" ist (weil man ihn nicht komplett bekommt) und dessen Freiheit jederzeit ohne Angabe von Gründen beendet werden kann. Aus Sicht von jemandem, dem freies Wissen am Herzen liegt, kann eine Teilnahme an Mapillary nur dann gerechtfertigt sein, wenn man kurzfristig Nutzen aus den hochgeladenen Bildern zieht und sie z.B. für das Mapping bei OSM nutzt. Was man *nicht* tut, ist am Aufbau eines langfristig offenen Bilderschatzes mitzuarbeiten - langfristig arbeitet man nur dem Börsenwert eines Unternehmens zu. Ich will die Teilnahme an Mapillary nicht verteufeln, aber ich finde, dass gerade Wikimedia mit ihrem Fokus auf "freiem Wissen" hier zumindest eine kritische Distanz einhalten sollte - ein Beitrag zu OpenStreetMap oder Wikipedia ist im Sinne von "freiem Wissen" eine ganz andere Kategorie als ein Beitrag zu Mapillary. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Neues Förderangebot von WMDE für Projekte um OSM
Hallo Nico, wäre super, wenn Wikimedia Deutschland sich in diesen Dingen auch ein bisschen mit dem FOSSGIS (deutsches Local Chapter der OSMF) abstimmen könnte, so dass der FOSSGIS von solchen Plänen nicht erst aus den Nachrichten erfährt ;) Mir stößt ein bisschen negativ auf, dass "Mapillary" (mit Tippfehler) als Beispiel auf der Seite genannt wird. Mapillary wird zwar von vielen OSMern gern benutzt und gibt einzelne Bilder über eine API unter der CC-BY-SA-Lizenz heraus, aber über die Gesamtheit der Bilder kann nur Mapillary selbst verfügen. Sowas wie "ich lasse mal einen selbstgebastelten Algorithmus über alle Bilder in Hessen laufen" oder sowas geht nicht, und wenn Mapillary irgendwann pleite macht oder aufgekauft wird, sind die Bilder halt weg. Das, finde ich, sollte man nicht unterstützen - es ist "openwashing". Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-GB] GB does not include Northern Ireland
Clive, On 28.08.2018 14:04, webmas...@killyfole.org.uk wrote: > As it has been pointed out to me on IRC that GB doesn't include Northern > Ireland, and I should keep my opinions to myself. So having left the IRC > channel, I am now leaving this mailing list as well. If even Germans don't keep their opinions to themselves on this list, then why should people from Northern Ireland ;) I'd urge you to reconsider. If someone seriously took the bigoted approach to "othering" you on IRC just because the list was called talk-gb then I'm sure the community will stand behind you and not behind whoever said that, and an apology is in order. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] boundary mania (was: 'historic' county boundaries added to the database)
Hi,
On 08/26/2018 12:46 PM, Colin Smale wrote:
> It has gone all quiet here, and in the mean time smb001 has been making
> steady progress across England.
I think he shouldn't have done this. He should have argued his case here
and the community should have come to an explicit resolution, rather
than one party creating a "status quo".
Personally, I am very much against mapping historic boundaries in OSM,
mostly because the exemption from the "on the ground" rules that apply
to current administrative borders (they are so important that we make an
exception) don't hold for historic boundaries.
But there's a general problem with boundary relations getting out of
hand. Take this little unnamed waterway here
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/614127384
which is meanwhile a member of 19 different boundary relations:
* South East England European Parliamant Constituency
* The admin_level=8 boundaries New Forest and East Dorset
* New Forest West UK Parliament Constituency (4152802)
* Alderholt Civil Parish and Damerham Civil Parish
* Cranborne Chase & West Wiltshire Downs AONB (2664452)
* Dorset historic county and Wiltshire historic county
* an administrative region called "South West England" and an
administrative region called "South East England", both admin_level 5
* The Hampshire Constabulary boundary ("boundary=police") which exists
twice (relations 3999378, 8188274) if any proof was needed that this is
getting out of hand even for those who added it
* The Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service boundary ("boundary=fire")
* Hampshire County and Dorset County
* Hampshire Ceremonial County and Dorset Ceremonial County
* A statistical boundary called "Hampshire and Isle of Wight"
I have not analyzed these in detail and I won't make an attempt to tell
the readers of this mailing list which of these make sense to have in
your country. But I have a hunch that, say, the statistical boundary
"Hampshire and Isle of Wight" is not actually defined as a boundary. I
have a hunch that if the boundary of Hampshire were to change, then this
statistical area would also change - because it is *not* defined by
geometry, but just by reference to existing administrative boundaries.
I think we should all think twice before duplicating and triplicating
data in OSM just because there's yet another boundary that includes
Hampshire. We should find a way to reference existing boundaries instead
of copying them.
Practically all of the relations above have version numbers in the
hundreds, version numbers that have again increased when smb1001 did his
historic boundary mapping - of course he hasn't changed anything in the
statistical boundary "Hampshire and Isle of Wight" but still he's listed
as last modifier of this relation just because he has just split up a
way that was part of the Hampshire boundary.
I think if we continue heaping ever more boundary relations onto what we
have, we'll make things less and less understandable, less and less
maintainable.
But that's a general remark, not *specificall* aimed at history county
boundaries.
Bye
Frederik
PS: Of course, public transport relations are an even bigger culprit.
There are a handful of ways in OSM in England that are member of more
then 100 relations, mostly bus routes as far as I can see.
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Re: [Talk-us] Vandalism
Hi, On 08/19/2018 07:27 AM, mr english wrote: > What's the procedure for revert things like this? If it's a "country" somewhere in the sea then it's relatively easy to delete, and everyone is encouraged to delete obvious vandalism like that on sight. It is always a good idea to add a public comment to the vandalism edits explaining that the data has been deleted, and why - more often than not, the "vandal" thought they were just doodling in their private sandbox! If the task is too daunting for you, you can bring it to the attention of other mappers who are more experienced - message to the mailing list is ok, though a synchronous channel like IRC or Slack might yield quicker results. There's also the Data Working Group at d...@osmfoundation.org to deal with matters that the community cannot easily resolve themselves - for example, if you have a persistent vandal that needs to be blocked from making further edits. The edits you highlighted have been reverted by user Carnildo a couple hours ago. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] buggy buildings in Maryland
Hi, On 08/16/2018 08:08 PM, Elliott Plack wrote: > I'd say go ahead and remove the extraneous nodes This has now been done. > and also any buildings > that are either version 0 or do not have any new tags (like names or > addresses) It appears that of the 177,151 buildings still there, only 29,513 have tags other than building=*. In most cases, these other tags are addr:street and addr:housenumber. I'll let this rest for a bit to give others a chance to chime in. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] AI detecting of buildings Idle thoughts
Hi, On 16.08.2018 09:56, Christoph Hormann wrote: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/61401087 Btw I have commented on this changeset. Apparently the main use case is having a general indication of "there are people living here". In a way, it's what we did in Western Europe when we only had Landsat imagery: "Uh, this looks like a settlement, let's draw a grey blob" ;) I guess it would look less silly if it had been created on a coarser level. What we have here *suggests* precision due to the many nodes, but in the end it's relatively random. Like if you specify the result of a measurement as 4.35375423 when your error is +/- 1 ;) A little buffering and simplifying would probably have been a sensible idea. But then again, had they asked beforehand, it's possible that we would have told them it's a bad idea to start with ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-us] buggy buildings in Maryland
Hi, over the last 2 years, DWG has had a three different complaints about a buggy building import that has been run on and off by the user "annapolissailor". The import was problematic in many ways, most obviously because huge batches of un-used nodes were uploaded and later it was attempted to connect them, which sometimes failed, leaving lots of un-used nodes in the database; also, almost all buildings are over-noded, taking 10 or more nodes for a simple rectangular building (eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/435663194). Buildings that were in the area before have been deleted outright, and the data source and legal situation is unclear (many buildings are much too precise to have come from aerial imagery). (Needless to say, had the import been discussed up front as is customary, all these issues could have been avoided.) I have tried to work with the importer but they seem to be ultimately unable or unwilling to fix the problems even though they did seem to understand the issue at some point (https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/1587). They asked me a couple of times to "hold off reverting data until next steps are discussed on the imports list" but never followed up on the promise. They claimed to have spent hundreds of hours on the JOSM validator improving problems they had introduced. I am at the moment deleting about 70,000 untagged and un-used nodes that have been left over from this import, which is the uncontroversial part. The total amount of buildings created and still visible is 177,151, with a total of 1,980,336 nodes, in the general area "East of Washington DC, South of Baltimore, North of Chesapeake Beach". I think these buildings need to be deleted too, given their technical (over-noding) and legal (we don't know where the data came from and what license it is under) issues. However, given how much work the mapper claims to have invested in this, I wonder if there's maybe a way to salvage the data. That would first require us to clear up the legal situation, and if it turns out the source is legal, then we'd have to go about killing the extra nodes in buildings. I'm basically looking for volunteers here. Other mappers have tried to discuss the issue with the mapper himself and never got far either, but of course if someone wanted to try and enlist annapolissailor's support, fair enough (perhaps agree here on the list who's doing it though, so that we don't have 10 people spamming him...) I have prepared a file that contains all the buildings in question: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/annapolis.osm.gz Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
Hi, On 08/13/2018 06:46 PM, Daniel Koć wrote: >> I also don't see a reason to add the OLC codes in tags in the >> database, even if marked on a building. > Since buildings are not guaranteed to fit into OLC rectangles and they > not 1:1 compatible, this usage makes sense for me. Which code would you then add to a building? Who would be given the power to decide (maybe of the several possible codes, one is nicer or contains the initials of the owner)? How would it be verifiable which code a building has? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
Hi, On 11.08.2018 11:21, mmd wrote: > With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point: All these have been added by accident, as a side effect of undiscussed imports. This is bad, but not as bad as adding them on purpose in the course of an ill-conceived aid project with the promise of lifting poor people out of their not-having-an-address misery. Adding coordinates, or plus codes, as tags to OSM makes no sense. Building an aid project around it and doing it on purpose is at best negligent and at worst cynical. It is a waste of the money of whoever funds the aid project, a waste of resources in OSM, and a waste of time for those who do it. For OSM to allow this to happen would make us complicit in that cynicism. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
Blake,
On 10.08.2018 19:23, Blake Girardot wrote:
> I think an approach based on local buy-in, with a small scale test of
> adding the PlusCode address to the objects is the fastest, OSM'ish way
> forward.
Christoph was a bit harsh in his response but I think he is right on teh
fundamentals, and I urge you to reconsider.
As I have explained in another post just a few minutes ago, taking the
"adding tags to OSM" approach is a cynical form of aid - it makes people
using it depend on your aid. It wastes effort with those adding the
data, it wastes storage space in OSM, it has *nothing*, absolutely
nothing going for it.
The sensible approach is to add the logic that converts plus codes to
locations and vice versa to those places where people interface with the
map - be that the osm.org web site, or the offline application they're
using, or the machine that prints a map. It would not be difficult to
modify e.g. the humanitarian map style to print plus codes onto
buildings, computing them on the fly, if that's desired. Doing this
means you develop it once and it is immediately usable everywhere by
everyone. That is the only sensible approach. Otherwise you'll be stuck
running one project after the other ("add plus codes for X community",
"add plus codes for Y community", etc.), and not only that: The generic
approach will automatically work for everything built in the future. It
can be used to address not only houses but wells, mountains, bays, even
trees. It is better in *every* respect.
We must let reason prevail here and not do something on a whim based on
a misunderstanding of how things work.
It is sad that it has come to a point where some people seem to have
already built "projects" around importing plus codes in a way that
everyone here would have told them is the least useful of all, had they
botehred to ask! Let us stop the madness before it spreads further, and
work on doing it right.
Bye
Frederik
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
Hi, I am very surprised that this discussion is not dead yet. To me, this is like one person saying 1+1 is 2 and the other person saying 1+1 is 3. This is something that should not be a matter of opinion; this is a matter of logic. Vao, when you write: > My objective is to give addresses to people who will never have one. that's totally ok, and can be done with OSM and plus codes, no question! The issue is just: Should the algorithm that converts lat/lon into plus codes be applied "centrally" and the result of the computation stored in OSM (which seems to be your approach), or should the computation instead happen at the point where a human being interfaces with OSM. To take the example of OSMAnd and make it very clear, step by step. Let's assume we have two people, each using OSMAnd, and one person (A) wants to communicate to the other person (B) where they live. Your approach goes like this: 1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd. 2. A clicks on the house to somehow bring up all tags the house has. 3. One of these tags is the plus code, because it has been added at another time by a third party. 4. A tells B the plus code. 5. B invokes a search function on their OSMAnd, and OSMAnd searches for an object that has the given plus code. 6. B knows where to go. This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd (namely: evaluating the plus code tags), and it requires a third party to have added the plus code for the location in question beforehand. It also requires OSM to store the plus codes. The approach that I - and everyone else who applies the same logic - propose, is: 1. A zooms to their house on OSMAnd. 2. A clicks on the house to invoke the plus code computation function in OSMAnd. 3. OSMAnd displays the plus code. 4. A tells B the plus code. 5. B enters the plus code into OSMAnd, and OSMAnd applies the reverse computation function. 6. B knows where to go. This approach requires extra functionality in OSMAnd to apply the plus code computation, but libraries and code for that exist. This approach does NOT require that someone else has added the particular location to OSM before - it works everywhere on the planet. Also, this approach does not require OSM to store all the plus codes. The only thing that approach A has going for it is that if someone has the means to access OSM, but has no means to invoke the plus code computation, they can still read the plus code from the tag. But I struggle to think of a scenario like that. I think that approach B is not only better, it is the only sane approach. Approach A makes users dependent on the goodwill of someone who uploads all the tags to OSM. Approach B makes this "someone" unnecessary. When used in a humanitarian/development context, approach A represents the old style of making people dependent on aid (dependent on a third party running a plus code import project), whereas approach B is making users independent. Approach A is the wrong approach for everyone. > It is interesting that this effort for > addressing is being trashed because it is savvy technology. You are misreading me and many others here. Plus codes may be savvy technology (albeit I can see how the dependency on latin alphabet may be putting some people off). Plus codes themselves are not under attack here; what is being criticized is using plus codes to do "approach A", and *that* is very certainly not savvy! I and many others have said this a few times in this thread, and I have the impression that it has not really become clear. I hope that this lengthy post has managed to explain it, and I am sure that once you have thought this through you will see that - *especially* from a development aid perspective - approach A is the last thing you want! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
Hi, On 08/10/2018 12:04 AM, Vao Matua wrote: > I use Plus Codes with OSMand offline and it works well. If we are > worried about the number of tags we should remove all tags and convince > everyone to just use lat/long. There's absolutely nothing to be said against OSMand using plus codes, indeed, this proves that plus codes can be used perfectly well without adding them to the OSM database. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "remove all tags and convince everyone to just use lat/long". Our tags describe not *where* something is, but *what* something is, a feature certainly as useful in Tanzania as elsewhere. The description of *where* something is does indeed happen by latitude and longitude in OSM. In some countries we add street addresses, but only because there's no mathematical way to derive a lat/long from the address. If it were possible to apply a formula to an address and arrive at a lat/long, or apply a formula to a lat/long and arrive at a street address, nobody would be mapping them. Just as nobody should be mapping plus codes. Put the formula in the device (e.g. OSMand) and you have plus code support for the whole planet. No need to import billions of address points. It's faster, cleaner, and less likely to break. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?
Hi, On 08/09/2018 10:48 PM, Vao Matua wrote: > The Tanzania Development trust has calculated the Plus Code addresses > for 17 million building points in Tanzania and have added a sample > village (1800 points) as a test. This is not a good idea. Please don't do it. It does not make sense! If someone searches for a plus code on a web site, the site can compute the lat/lon and take you there, WITHOUT having to add billions of plus code points all over the word. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Addressing systems (Was: Paper/Article about stagnation in OSM)
Subject changed ;) On 03.08.2018 08:41, Maarten Deen wrote: > The extra penalty for What3words is that you also need an active > internet connection (or a huge offline addressing database) to convert > the three words to a location. ... > Is it easier and > quicker for me to first open some app to try and find my 8 letter > location or my 3 What3words, or is it easier and quicker to just read > out my gps location? I am certainly not a what3words fan (I hope this is obvious) but in the service of truth I need to say two things for them: First, they claim that their offline addressing database is actually not huge, but small enough to use on most devices. The problem is not that the database is huge, it's that the database is protected and they'll slap a takedown notice on anyone using it without their agreement, e.g. https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2016/2016-07-05-what3words.md. Second, they claim that saying three natural language words on a potentially low-quality radio or mobile phone connection leaves less room for misreadings than dictating a string of numbers. They claim that the dictionary has been curated in a way as to not have similar-sounding words, a claim that, I believe, has been often ridiculed with examples but I don't have any at hand right now. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Paper/Article about stagnation in OSM
Hi, I don't necessarily agree with all that's been written but I found http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2053951718790591 an interesting read: "The social construction of technological stasis: The stagnating data structure in OpenStreetMap." Grossly simplified, the author tries to answer the question "why haven't we shipped API 0.7 yet" from a social science viewpoint. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Hostility towards US mappers
Bryan, On 07/25/2018 09:40 PM, Bryan Housel wrote: > That said - Frederik’s message made me really angry. I’m still pretty upset > about it. To your analogy, I’d never go on talk-de and threaten to revert > the work of some students in Germany just because they didn’t connect some > lines. What made me angry when I saw the edits was not that they were buggy - anyone starts out making buggy edits and I still make them to this day. And there's no difference between bumbling US newbies and bumbling German newbies or anywhere else in the world. What pisses me off is when bumbling newbiedom goes hand in hand with bigmouthed web sites about how the so-and-so project is making the world a better place, and then I look at what the project with the cool "store front" actually does in OSM and see rubbish. This is not the work of a student who has just discovered OSM and is taking their first steps. This is the work of a student who has signed up for a project, and been instructed by someone who is ultimately part of the group that makes the cool public-facing web site about OpenSidewalks. And what I see in OSM is not something that is suitable to achieve the project goals. It should be in the project's own interest to avoid or repair this. So my impression is, there's a project here that has invested a significant part of their time into convincing third parties that they're doing a great thing (maybe even convincing third parties that they're worth funding), but they treat OSM with much less diligence than they spend on their store front. In the end, it seems to be "good enough" to have students add disjunct lines that are unlikely to ever achieve any of the goals OpenSidewalks claims to pursue. If OSM was anything valuable to them, anything worth caring for, and not just a vehicle to piggyback their project on, then they would provide better training and supervision to their students so that mistakes like the ones I randomly stumbled across either do not happen, or are corrected. This is nothing to do with US mappers in general, I only posted here because it happens to be a US location. Similar things happen everywhere (even though some cultures seem more prone to do big PR than others). It is not even about mappers at all, because it is much more likely that those enlisting, instructing, and supervising the student are at fault here than that the student received excellent instructions and just wasn't up to it. I have no clue what the student(s) have been instructed to do, but whatever the goal is, the activity we see performed here is very unlikely to help achieve it. Those who set this up are responsible for fixing it; they can't just set up a half-baked project and then hope that OSM is somehow going to fix it. I am absolutely hostile towards projects treating OSM like an ever-forgiving receptacle into which you can pour anything half-baked and "the others" are somehow magically going to make it right. This is a deeply disrespectful attitude towards all those who are already spending lots of time building OSM. And if the occasional threat of reverting the whole lot is required to nudge the people managing such projects towards more diligence then that's a good thing for all of OSM! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Senseless Germans, again.
Hi, On 25.07.2018 12:33, Bryan Housel wrote: > Do you live in Austin, TX? > If not, why do you care whether the students want to map sidewalks there? What does this have to do with my nationality? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Senseless Sidewalks, again.
Hi, we had a long-ish discussion here (or was it over at imports?) about adding sidewalks, especially related to a project called "OpenSidewalks" which boldly announced a massive attempt at doing so. I recently stumbled across this changeset in Austin, TX: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/603909001 In it, an untagged line was added 24 days ago, with a vague promise of using JOSM later to add relevant tags, which hasn't happened yet. What's more, there are some erratic sideways in the same area, un-connected to the road network and un-connected to each other, see e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id=603909004#map=21/30.28318/-97.74670 and as such hardly usable for anything like pedestrian routing. And they don't even look good on the map. I really wonder what the purpose of this is. At least they're all tagged with "project=OpenSidewalks" which makes it easier to delete them once the project has run out... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-de] building:levels, Altbau/Neubau
Hallo, wenn man building:levels erfasst - das ist ja doch ein bisschen einfacher als eine echte Höhenmessung - macht es ja einen ziemlichen Unterschied, ob man es mit einem Altbau-Stadthaus mit 3,50m hohen Stockwerken zu tun hat oder mit einem Neubau mit nur 2,40. Sollte man das irgendwie mit erfassen? Ausserdem haben Gebäude in der Stadt oft so ein "Hochpaterre" (?), wo das Erdgeschoss nicht auf Straßenniveau ist, sondern einen halben Meter drüber. building:levels=3.5? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] API a lot slower?
Daniel, On 18.07.2018 14:18, Daniel Koć wrote: > Thanks for the message! However given how big this change is and that it > directly affects comfort of using OSM services, I would be glad to hear > much more details what are the plans and why there? The server move is currently eating up all the extra resources that OWG have (and more). We'll certainly be able to document it after the fact, but there is no free time available to provide any running commentary for the public while the move is being planned and executed. The decision for Amsterdam was made after carefully reviewing the bids/offers that were received in response to the request for proposals put out in February this year. The request also explained why the move was necessary. > As I understand, OSMF technical department (I mean Operations Working > Group and Engineering Working Group) wants to engage more people > (https://blog.openstreetmap.org/category/organisation/osmf-working-groups/) > and giving some general informations in public is a basic tool to > encourage them. Yes, the situation would be more relaxed if work were distributed on more shoulders but at this precise point in time I'd like our operations group to focus on getting the move done with minimum fuss, and not on recruiting new people! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-at] Die Rückkehr des Peter-Paul-Berg
Hallo, On 07/15/2018 08:17 PM, grubernd wrote: > also, bitte ganz ernsthaft zur Aufklärung: wie sind die Kriterien zur > Neuvergabe von Namen an unbenannten Objekten und dann deren Aufnahme in > die Geodatenbank OpenStreetMap und wo sind diese zu finden? Wenn ich so drüber nachdenke, denke ich: Das Problem ist weniger, wie hoch der Berg ist oder ob es doch eher nur ein Ameisenhügel ist. Das Problem ist, dass OpenStreetMap nicht das Medium ist, mit dem Du Deine Namensgebung veröffentlichst. Wenn Du denkst, dass Du das Recht hast, irgendetwas zu benennen, dann solltest Du das auf dem dafür üblichen Weg verbreiten - keine Ahnung, wie man vor OpenStreetMap Namen von neu entdeckten Bergen festgelegt hat, aber sicherlich gibt es dafür einen Prozess, und wenn der nur heisst "man bewegt die Dorfältesten dazu, den Namen zu benutzen, und eine Generation später ist der Name überall bekannt, und dann wird es auf den Karten so eingezeichnet". Wenn Du es dann geschafft hast, dass der von Dir vergebene Name allgemein genutzt wird (für geeignete Werte von "allgemein" - wenn der Hügel nur lokale Bedeutung hat, reicht es vielleicht schon, wenn die Mitarbeiter des örtlichen Forstamts ihn so nennen), dann kommt der Name auf die Karte. Der Name kommt aber nicht auf die Karte, *um* die allgemeine Nutzung voranzubringen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] Die Rückkehr des Peter-Paul-Berg
Hallo,
On 15.07.2018 15:30, emga wrote:
> Es hackt nicht, suche auf google mal nach Peter und Paul Berg bzw. Peter Paul
> Berg er wird oft genug erwähnt ... geben tut es ihn also
Die einzigen Treffer, die ich finde, sind
(a) verschiedene Erwähnungen einer Kirche St. Peter und Paul in einem
Ort namens Berg ("XYZ-Fest by St. Peter und Paul Berg" steht dann da)
(b) zwei (!) Laufrouten des gleichen (!) Nutzers bei "runmap.net", die
diesen Namen erwähnen.
Wer sagt mir, dass es sich bei diesem Nutzer nicht um den gleichen
handelt, der auch das "Gipfelkreuz" aufgestellt hat?
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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Re: [Talk-at] Die Rückkehr des Peter-Paul-Berg
Hi, On 15.07.2018 13:52, grubernd wrote: > für mich gelten hier ganz klar ähnliche Regeln wie beim Bergsteigen, > Klettern und in der klassischen Kartografie: > > der erste Interessierte gibt dem Objekt einen Namen. Ich glaub es hackt. Das gilt vielleicht, wenn Du eine Insel entdeckst, aber nicht, wenn der Grund vor Deiner Haustür 2m höher ist als anderswo und Du meinst, das sei jetzt ein "Berg". Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
[Talk-us] admin_level=8 boundaries in Parker County, TX
Hi, I've recently traced a little bit of stuff in Annetta, TX. The area I looked at had a lot of potential for someone interested in mapping from aerial imagery (houses, tracks, driveways, parking missing; some driveways tagged as highway=residential etc.) and I did what I could in the small area I worked on, but there was one thing I didn't dare touch and that's admin boundaries. The ones I encountered often cut straight through residential buildings and I thought that can't be right, but I know too little about boundaries in the US to fix any of it. I am specifically talking of https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/114418 and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/33245202 - maybe someone local wants to give them a closer look. Maybe it's ok the way it is. The Annetta North boundary is relatively straight but has one wobbly bit, is there maybe a waterway missing in OSM? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Scientific paper on "Information Seeding"
Hi, On 09.07.2018 10:35, Christoph Hormann wrote: > I am not really sure what you actually want to say here. You clearly > try to discredit the paper cited and you also attack Frederik for > linking to it. But if you truly think the paper is nonsense and you > know all this stuff so much better why don't you write your own paper > pointing out the errors and explaining how things really are? This thread started when I said that imports can often be damaging to community building, and people innocently asked if I can back that up with facts or research. Now of course it is extremely difficult to do research in this particular area at all; you can't just design an experiment and let it run for 10 years and see what happens. That we have any research at all about this topic, and not just anecdotes (of which there are of course many), is very valuable. Of course it is always very tempting to discredit research that doesn't agree with one's strongly held beliefs. "When I said show me some research, I meant THE OTHER KIND of research!!!" - I would probably start looking for flaws in a study that branded a data import as a huge success kickstarting a vibrant community too ;) Anyway, I'm fine with a discussion based on gut feelings and anectdotal evidence. Just don't ask me to prove my point with research if you're not interested. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] finding settlements where the highways do connect across the settlement
Hi, On 07/04/2018 10:30 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Andy Allan, > then working for CloudMade, ran a connectivity check Turns out the Wiki is good for something: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] finding settlements where the highways do connect across the settlement
Hi, On 07/04/2018 06:12 PM, john whelan wrote: > I'm using JOSM and find unconnected highways is useful but in Africa I'm > seeing a number of settlements that have highways entering on both sides > but nothing connecting them which poses problems for routing software. A very very long time ago, when the US data consisted of about 99.9% untouched TIGER import, all road connectivity was broken at every county border. County borders had not yet been imported so you couldn't just mosey along the county boundaries and mend roads either. Andy Allan, then working for CloudMade, ran a connectivity check by building a matrix of (100 by 100? don't remember) bigger cities and compared the routing distance to the bee line distance. Where the routing distance was larger than bee line by a factor of larger than something like 1.5 (don't remember), the entry was highlighted as "potentially affected by a connectivity issue" that humans could then hunt down. I fear the approach will need quite some adaptation to work in rural Africa but maybe it works on the small scale. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Why the HOT obsession with low quality buildings in Africa ?
Hi, On 04.07.2018 10:16, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: > And that does not even answer the question: what to do with the > "low-quality shape but actually exists" cases ? I am at a loss to answer > that. Conflate into a point maybe - by moving the outline's tags onto one of the corner nodes and removing the other nodes? Perhaps there's already a function for that in JOSM, or if not, it deserves to be added. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] proposed mechanical edit - moving FIXME=* to fixme=*
Hi, On 02.07.2018 19:42, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > It would make development of QA tools easier as authors would not need to > discover and implement support for this duplicated key. I think the downsides of such a large mechanical edit far outweigh the advantages. Don't forget that new FIXMEs will continue to appear all the time. Software should be able to deal with both. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the HOT obsession with low quality buildings in Africa ?
Hi, On 02.07.2018 10:24, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: > churning out buildings like demented stonemasons trying to reach their weekly > quota > of gamified task-managing ! I recently stumbled upon https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-6.8958/39.1623 (Tanzania) and had a similar thought. The buildings there are at least square and largely match aerial imagery, but this, too, looked like supercharged one-trick-pony image tracing combined with very little on the ground knowledge (e.g. quite a few roads and tracks clearly visible on the imagery are not traced, and from someone local you'd expect the occasional POI or label). Someone must have buildings very high on their priority list (don't even know if HOT are involved but it certainly doesn't look like local mapping). It will be interesting to learn why buildings are so important. Or are they just the lowest-hanging image tracing fruit, or just easier to count? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"
Hi, On 29.06.2018 13:44, Simon Poole wrote (quoting Wikimedia): > Add the missing names to OSM in your language. I think that this simply means we need much better name QA in the future, and must not be afraid to remove names that don't belong there. Until now we've practically let every language enthusiast add their names to places far and wide without asking for sources; in the future we should ask for verifiable sources. We're ready to accept a local person's authority about local features; but that doesn't mean that I as a speaker of German should necessarily have the (un-questioned) authority to assign German names to places on the other side of the planet. I expect that a close look at international place names from this point of view will probably enable us to get rid of quiet a few "Pont Neuf=New Bridge" type names. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Carto design
Hi, without going into the finer details, I'd like to offer an outsider's view of OSM Carto development. When Andy first created OSM Carto, he set out a road map that has long been superseded but thanks to version control we can still look at it: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/v1.0.0/README.md Essentially it was: v1.0 - re-implement existing stuff in carto v2.0 - make it more suitable for further development and customisation v3.0 - tackle the ticket backlog What has happened instead is that the easier-to-handle v2.0 was reasonably successful in attracting volunteers, and now we have a small team instead of one person doing the style, which is great. But after a while this small team has started milking the toolchain for all it's got, and meanwhile the SQL queries are so complex that they threaten to nullify any effort that has gone into making the style accessible to new participants (or people who want to customise it). So the ease of participating or customising has more or less already gone down the drain; what's still good about OSM Carto is that at least you can easily install it as-is on your own infrastructure (I regularly do that for business clients), but I fear it is only a matter of time until this aspect of usability, too, will be abandoned, and you will have to run massive pre-computation jobs in order to even get your map off the ground... Personally speaking, the OSM Carto map has been good enough for me and all my use cases for years now. If anything, I found the inflation of icons and special cases a bit irritating. I would love it if OSM Carto could be split into a "bread and butter" style that is easy to work with, easy on the eye and easy to render, and a "cartography navel-gazing" add-on where we show off how we can render different track patterns depending on the pebble size. We could then offer both on openstreetmap.org (where the bread-and-butter style would be the default). But I'm not involved in OSM Carto development and I won't tell people how to do their job. Occasionally when I look at OSM Carto tickets I am in awe about how much work goes into seemingly minor things - how details are diligently discussed, tried, tested, discarded, done differently, until they finally come to fruition in a release one year later. It is great to see this much work and enthusiasm invested in OSM Carto, and if the price for that is complicated SQL queries then so be it - the "bread and butter" style I was thinking of could be made by someone else too. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Geofabrik request: Tyne and Wear
Afraid I cannot reply in the language, but I've added Durham and Tyne and Wear now. At the same time I've shaved a little bit off North Yorkshire which for reasons I cannot fathom had overlapped with Durham a little bit. Let me know if anything is wrong! Bye Frederik On 06/22/2018 03:47 PM, Andy Robinson wrote: > Or in Gordie…. > > > > Cud ah myek a request fo' an additional region within england on > geofabrik? it's tyne an' weor, a formor metropolitan county coverin > Newcassel an' the surroundin area - similar in status tuh formor > metropolitan counties iv syeuth an' west yorkshire, greator manchestor > an' merseyside. > > > > J > > > > *From:*Nick Whitelegg [mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk] > *Sent:* 21 June 2018 15:27 > *To:* Frederik Ramm > *Cc:* talk-gb@openstreetmap.org > *Subject:* [Talk-GB] Geofabrik request: Tyne and Wear > > > > > > Hello Frederik, > > > > Could I make a request for an additional region within England on geofabrik? > > > > It's Tyne and Wear, a former metropolitan county covering Newcastle and > the surrounding area - similar in status to former metropolitan counties > of South and West Yorkshire, Greater Manchester and Merseyside. > > > Thanks, > > Nick > > > > > -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Golan Heights
Hi, On 06/20/18 15:40, Mario Frasca wrote: > our map now only shows the area as if it were part of the State of > Israel, which is not, according to international law. We try not to show the world according to diplomats and international law, but according to the reality on the ground. If something is illegally occupied by space aliens, then we will show it as space alien territory, because space aliens is what you have to deal with if you should want to travel there. Our data will usually contain hints about the finer details, but our map is not a political map and nobody benefits from us showing theoretical claims that are out of sync with reality. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iD news - v2.9.0 now with Bing Streetside support
Hi. On 19.06.2018 13:58, David Marchal wrote: > OK, my bad, then. A remnant of old anti-Microsoft-ism, I assume. Do you > have heard of a support of this imagery from JOSM, by chance? https://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/MicrosoftStreetside/ though since it hasn't been announced yet it might not be ready for prime time. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)
Hi, On 06/09/2018 04:31 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > I have objections to the use of Slack in particular, and to the use of > real-time communication tools in general (not just Slack but other tools > like IRC, HipChat, Rocket.Chat etc.). I think that while it would be ok for any of these to be used by a smaller group to actually do some work, the smaller group should come back to the mailing list for anything of importance. (The same applies to in-person meetings btw, for example if you were to try and get an import approved at a SotM conference or so.) For example, a process where someone pops up on the mailing list and says "I have this data but I don't know how to import, can someone help", and then a smaller group huddles together on Slack/IRC/in a pub to flesh out a proposal, which then goes back to the mailing list for approval or feedback, would be totally ok and likely more productive than going every step on the mailing list. But what you can't do of course is say "we discussed this on Slack and decided we want to do it that way, now be quiet you weren't there" when someone suggests an improvement on the list later. Apart from the reasons you mentioned, having a record is also an important factor. Anything that has gone on on these mailing lists is practically archived forever and for all to see[*] but when I'm told "we discussed this on Slack" I have no chance of checking if there was indeed a discussion or just one guy with a big mouth and two of his pals applauding ;) Bye Frederik [*] minus things like the EU data protection regulations forcing us to remove someone who wants to be forgotten - but they will live on in my personal email folder, har har. -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Redactions in North Korea
Hi, On 06/02/2018 01:11 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > If you happen to have access to material than can legally be used to > re-add some of the now missing place names, then your help is very > welcome. It has been pointed out to me that there is 1983 document on North Korean place names by the United States Board on Geographic Names in North Korea. A Google-digitized, public domain version is viewable online, https://hdl.handle.net/2027/pst.15364708 and a text-only OCR'd version is also available. But the names are all in English only, and the coordinates rounded to full arc minutes (i.e. +/- 1.5km on the ground). It could be good enough to label places you see on the imagery, but it is certainly not good enough for any kind of automated processing. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Redactions in North Korea
Hi, most of the place names in North Korea had been copied from a web site called "38northdigitalatlas.org". We have received a complaint from the copyright holders about this. The user who added the information has admitted to copying it. The copyright holders have asked us to remove the data. We have tried to convince them to allow us to keep it but it wasn't possible, so I've redacted the affected place nodes (and some boundaries) in https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/59473904. If you happen to have access to material than can legally be used to re-add some of the now missing place names, then your help is very welcome. Please be meticulous in specifying your sources when adding place names though - we don't want to re-import 38northdigitalatlas.org data through the back door. This particularly applies to information sourced from Wikipedia/Wikidata - please do not use them as sources. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] what can be mapped - temporary, pernament and reoccuring
Hi, I think it is not possible to make clear distinction here. You write yourself that > OpenStreetMap is not a place to map events that happened in the > past or will likely happen in the future. and then you write that you want to map > a flea market present on each Tuesday, regular > street otherwise (maybe with some street markings). How infrequent does the flea market have to happen in order for it to become an un-mappable "event"? Take a Christmas market for example, which is like a flea market just less frequent... or is it an event already? I think the key here is, like so often, verifiability. Things in OSM must be verifiable, and I'd like to add "... with reasonable effort by an average person". If something is verifiable only with expensive special gear by a person with a doctorate in physics, then maybe OSM is not the place. Same with recurring things - if their frequency is so low that the effort to verify them becomes unreasonable, then don't map. My gut feeling is that something that happens once a week is reasonably easy to verify. Something that happens once a month, mmh, maybe ok. Something that happens once a year is, in my opinion, too hard to verify and should be left out. (I don't mind someone mapping the Christmas market, or Burning Man, once it is set up, and deleting everything again when it's packed up. It just shouldn't be in OSM while it's not in the real world.) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-at] Public postbox für Adressveröffentlichungen
Hallo, On 23.05.2018 14:25, grubernd wrote: > immer wieder faszinierend Ich rate zur Gelassenheit. Im großen und ganzen hat das Modell, dass man meistens, wenn man eine gute Idee mit/für/um OSM hat, einfach losrennen und machen darf, uns eher genützt als geschadet, denke ich. Natürlich sind es nicht immer nur die mit den ausgezeicheten und wohlüberlegten Ideen, die losrennen und was machen. Wenn einer irgendwo bei einer Gemeinde arbeitet, sind dem im Lauf seines Lebens sicherlich schon ein paar komische Vögel über den Weg gelaufen, die mit seltsam verquasten Schreiben nach irgendwas gefragt haben. Das ruiniert den Ruf von OSM jetzt auch nicht. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
[Talk-GB] Corrections for Ewelme, Oxfordshire
Hi, someone claiming to have lived there for over 40 years has emailed to DWG a list of corrections for the village of Ewelme, Oxfordshire, that I am sharing in the hope that someone local can deal with them: --- start The mapping for Ewelme, Oxfordshire contains some errors in road names. I should point out that I have lived in the village for 43 years, so I think I am well placed to comment. The road between the Shepherd’s Hut and the Kings Pool, running roughly NW-SE is called “The Street”, not “Clay Lane”. The real Clay Lane is actually marked correctly beyond Green Lane. The extension of The Street beyond Kings Pool (labelled “High Street”) is also called “The Street” (it was renamed a few years ago). Similarly, the extension of The Street beyond Day’s Lane (labelled “Burrows Hill”) is also called “The Street”. The real Burrows Hill is actually marked correctly, connecting The Street with Parson’s Lane. So The Street actually runs from the Shepherd’s Hut to beyond Day’s Lane. As an addition, the small lane running approximately Se-NW connecting Eyre’s Lane to Cottesmore Lane is known as “The Pightles”. I hope that you can incorporate this information into the OSM. --- end I'll point the person to this post so if you have any questions, I hope they will read this. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Issues with diffs
Hi, On 05/09/2018 08:21 PM, Andrzej Kępys wrote: > Since about 12 hours I'm having issues with replication. > > Osmosis is reporting: > > OsmosisRuntimeException: The replication state doesn't contain a > timestamp property. > > Any idea where can I post/report this? I think your issue is likely that OSMF has switched to "https only" for planet.openstreetmap.org this morning. Requests to http URLs are answered with a redirect to the https URL. Osmosis doesn't honour these redirects. You need to change http to https in your configuration.txt. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Toys R Us
Hi, On 05.05.2018 12:57, Rob Nickerson wrote: > Frederik's view is that a crap map encourages more people to edit. Not quite. My view is that a crap map doesn't become a non-crap map by erasing one obviously false name, and I was thinking more of our relationship with the map user and not so much of encouraging mappers. But I haven't used the word "crap map". OpenStreetMap is generally great, and it might have the occasional weak spot. What is being suggested here is what a commercial map maker would do: Let's take measures to hide the weak spots of our product, so that we can shine without blemish. But we ware not a commercial map maker. We can afford to, and should, be honest with our map consumers. And that includes admitting that none of our volunteers has had the time to re-visit the area since Toys R Us went belly-up. My view is that the map is actually *better* for the consumer if we are honest with them, because we're including an easily decodable marker about its quality. A marker that even people who cannot use any OSM QA tools will understand without extra training. Rob is of course right that removing the store without re-surveying the area does remove one error from the map and therefore makes it a tiny little bit more correct. I'm just arguing for keeping the error until we can afford to make it much more correct. If that takes a few months then we have to live with that; doing it right takes time and I'm pretty sure that doing it right is one thing our users love us for. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Toys R Us
Hi, On 05/04/2018 09:10 PM, Brian Prangle wrote: > When will it be appropriate to do a mechanical edit and remove the 47 > instances of this store that can be seen in Overpass? Have they all > closed now? My local one is now closed and leaving a large gap on its > retail park Obviously-outdated POIs are the standard user interface for maps to signal their age and quality. If you take a paper map today, and it features a chain restaurant that you know went out of business five years ago, you immediately have an idea of how old/trustworthy the rest of the map is. OSM can benefit from this same mechanism. Leave the Toys R Us-es in place until a local mapper re-surveys the area which might include mapping any number of other nearby POIs, updating opening times, and whatnot. It is easy to run a script that removes all the Toys R Us-es, but that script would also destroy the valuable information that this general area of the map hasn't been updated since Toys R Us went bankrupt. If you could run a script that truly updates the map in the area that would be another thing, but you cannot; you can only run a script that removes the obvious "this map is outdated" marker. That might make the map *look* more current but actually it isn't - the script would just be window dressing. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-de] OSM auf Arte X:enius
Hallo, irgendwann in den nächsten Monaten gibt es beim Fernsehsender Arte eine Sendung in der Reihe "X:enius" über Kartographie. Die Redaktion hatte mich vor ein paar Wochen angemailt, weil man gern auch über OSM berichten wollte. Gestern hatten wir dann hier in Karlsruhe ein Aufnahmeteam von Arte zu Gast, und Joachim Kast, Michael Reichert und ich haben denen ein bisschen "Craftmapping" vorgeführt (und uns dabei so lange in einem Neubaugebiet in Ötigheim herumgetrieben, dass ich jetzt unerwartet mit Sonnenbrand hier sitze...). OpenStreetMap wird nur ein paar Minuten in der Sendung haben, aber ich hoffe, der Funke wird zum einen oder anderen Zuschauer überspringen. Lassen wir uns überraschen. Ein Sendetermin ist noch nicht bekannt, aber ich sage bescheid, sobald ich was erfahre. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] OSMF-Vorstand tagt in Karlsruhe
Hallo,
am Wochenende ist eine Klausurtagung ("Face-to-Face-Meeting") des
OSMF-Vorstands in Karlsruhe.
Samstag abend (28.4. 19:30) ist die Community beim gemeinsamen
Abendessen im Restaurant "Zum Kleinen Ketterer"
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4413801140) willkommen. Bitte sagt
mir bescheid, wenn ihr kommen wollt, damit ich sicherstellen kann, dass
genug Plätze reserviert sind.
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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[OSM-talk] Name:* tags in the local language
Hi, On 04/24/2018 07:23 PM, Paul Norman wrote: > If there's agreement that there is a problem here, I could look at > preparing a mechanical edit or MapRoulette challenge to add name:* tags, > e.g. adding name:en to objects in the US with other name:* tags, and > adding name:zh in China. As an estimate, this would be 115k changes in > China, touching 28% of roads there. Even if there should be agreement that there is a problem here, there are other potential solutions. Someone once suggested to have a special tag that indicates which name tag should be used by default. I.e. we'd have tons of "name:xx" tags plus one tag called e.g. "language=en", that would then mean: The default name to use is the name:en name. I think this would be more elegant than the duplication that you are suggesting. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How do you mapping gender neutral toilets? What should the unisex tag mean?
Hi, On 04/24/2018 08:02 PM, Tobias Zwick wrote: > Why do you think it necessary to map at all if any particular toilet is > segregated or not beyond whether I can go there as a man/woman? What is > the application? I know people of both standard genders who would prefer using a toilet that is for their gender's exclusive use over a toilet that is for all genders. Their respective reasons for doing so are based on unflattering stereotypes so I won't repeat them here, but there definitely *are* people who do not only want to know "can I use that toilet" but also "who else can use that toilet". Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-de] Nutzung des "lit"-Tags in Deutschland
Hallo, ich habe mal gezählt, wie oft "lit" an Ways mit highway=* in Deutschland vorkommt: 487245 yes 180915 no 2365 limited 336 24/7 308 sunset-sunrise 261 opposite 246 automatic 101 disused 35 interval 29 1 23 temporarily 14 Dämmerung - 23 Uhr; 5 Uhr - Sonnenaufgang 9 twilight 9 dusk_dawn 8 no;yes 8 Mo-Su 18:00-22:00 8 Mo-Su 05:00-22:00 7 operating_times 7 Mo-Su 18:00-24:00 7 lit=yes 6 light_switch 5 unknown 5 sparsely 5 operating times und noch ein paar gequetschte. (Bei "lit=yes" dachte ich erst an einen Programmfehler, aber https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/565098324 gibt's tatsächlich). Wie geht ihr vor, wenn ihr lit=* mappt? Wenn ich am Tage durch eine Straße fahre und Laternen sehe, reicht das schon für ein "lit=yes" (sicherlich sind die Laternen nicht zum Spaß da), oder muss ich prüfen, ob die tatsächlich auch angehen? Das Wiki schreibt, nach der Erklärung der Laternenring-Ausnahme (s.u.): "Alle anderen Laternen müssen nach StVO die ganze Nacht über brennen und können auch entsprechend getaggt werden, ohne eine Nachtwanderung zu machen." - vom Gefühl her widerstrebt es mir etwas, aus dem bloßen Vorhandensein einer Laterne auf eine nächtliche Beleuchtung zu schließen, denn bei OSM mappen wir ja in der Regel, was "ist" und nicht was "nach StVO sein muss". Berücksichtigt ihr (oder findet ihr, dass man das tun sollte) bei der Vergabe von lit=* den "Laternenring" (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laternenring), der angibt, dass die Laterne nicht die ganze Nacht leuchtet? Das Wiki empfiehlt, "lit=yes" auch bei unbekannter Leuchtdauer zu verwenden, schreibt zugleich (was eigentlich dazu ein Widerspruch ist), dass man lit=limited verwenden könne, wenn ein Laternenring dran ist. Ich habe mal gelesen, dass Gemeinden zum Stromsparen nur jede zweite Laterne die ganze Nacht brennen lassen. Aber ich kann doch in so einem Fall die Straße nicht in lauter 50m lange Stücke unterteilen, die Hälte mit lit=yes und die andre Hälfte mit "lit=". In gewisser Weise ist ja schon die ganze Straße beleuchtet, auch wenn nur die Hälfte der Lampen an ist. Bloß halt nich so gut... Und was ist, wenn auf einer Straßenseite Laternen sind und auf der anderen nicht? So viele Ways haben lit=yes, nach Straßentyp: 178893 residential 60099 footway 58973 secondary 39344 tertiary 32147 service 28245 primary 26495 path 15792 living_street 13583 unclassified 8792 steps 7508 cycleway 6910 pedestrian 1747 track 1614 trunk 1348 primary_link 1226 secondary_link 1086 trunk_link 1002 motorway_link 977 motorway und lit=no 39990 motorway 26389 track 22590 footway 15808 path 13454 secondary 11987 primary 10315 motorway_link 8198 service 6587 tertiary 5350 unclassified 5065 residential 4035 trunk 3831 cycleway 3184 steps 1523 trunk_link 1204 primary_link 406 pedestrian 327 secondary_link 300 living_street Mich wundert, dass lit=no so oft explizit an Autobahnen getaggt wird, obwohl es ja der Default zu sein scheint (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/strassenbeleuchtung-an-autobahnen-weniger-licht-mehr-sicht-1.1959510). Als Quelle für lit=no wird oft http://www.autobahn-bilder.de angegeben. "Alle Bilder sind Urheberrechtlich geschützt" - haben wir von dem Autor denn eine Spezialgenehmigung, seine Bilder für OSM zu benutzen? Fragen über Fragen, und endlose Gelegenheit zum "bikeshedding" ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-ca] DigitalGlobe building footprints for sale in Canada
Hi, On 04/11/2018 06:22 PM, Bernie Connors wrote: > I received this link by email today. It looks like DigitalGlobe is > trying to make some money from their building footprint data before it > is available for free in OpenStreetmap. In the PR footer it also has a nice explanation of why so many businesses are so eager to apply Machine Learning to OSM: "By applying artificial intelligence tools and machine learning algorithms, imagery and data can yield critical insights about land use and land change, vegetation, the built environment and much more. Discover how location intelligence is transforming the way businesses understand and derive insights from the built environment. Contact us today." OSM is the ideal test bed for a business wanting to hone their "machine learning" skills - just dump your stuff into OSM and the community will fix it, and you can then use these fixes as a new input for your machine learning system... ... which will thereby of course fall fully under ODbL ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [OSM-talk] Villages with no highways
Hi, On 04/08/2018 10:26 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Not only that, someone has already picked them out: Looking a bit more at the list, I wonder if we should maybe delete all nodes that * were imported before 2010 from GNS * were never used since * have a "fixme=no population estimate available, defaulted to village" * and have no mapping in the vicinity I have the impression that many of these nodes are stranded in the wilderness between several, meanwhile-mapped, populated places, and the danger of getting lost while trying to reach one of these places might outweigh the advantage of having them. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Villages with no highways
Hi, On 04/08/2018 10:16 PM, john whelan wrote: > If you look in parts of Africa there are a number of villages on the map > but no connecting highways. Bing imagery is available for many of them > that show highways that connect them. > > Is there an easy way to pick them out? Not only that, someone has already picked them out: https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/unmapped#5/47.100/9.800 Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] QA bots commenting on changesets - your thoughts?
Hi, On 04/04/18 10:44, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > What do you think about it? Are such bots useful or not? The bot programmer must take extreme care not to make their bot an annoyance. In my opinion this would include: * do not message the same person twice about the same kind of problem * at the very least allow mappers to "opt out" of bot messaging, or ideally use an opt-in where when someone submits a changeset, they don't only tick "I would like someone to review my changeset" but also "I am willing to receive automated messages about this changeset" Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Edit war after MapRoulette motorway downgrading task
Hi, On 03.04.2018 02:20, Clay Smalley wrote: > I'm... shocked. This is a really confrontational way of addressing > things, and it really doesn't make me feel good contributing here. Without knowing you, or the particulars of the mapping, or the other mapper, let me suggest one thing: Try to see this from the side of the other person. Imagine: * you have been doing a lot of mapping in your local area; * you have developed a certain way to map certain objects, that might be a little out of touch with what is considered the "right" approach elsewhere in the project, but you don't notice or care; * someone you don't know decides that the way you've been doing it is wrong, and sets up a challenge in some sort of task managing program you don't know; * one or more other people who have never edited in your area, suddenly start appearing and making very particular changes, driven, as you find out, by the task managing platform. This can easily create a sense of "I'm under attack" in the individual mapper. They weren't consulted; they weren't aware; all of a sudden, the locusts are there, and the mapper doesn't even know who sent them and why. Someone has overruled your judgement and doesn't even bother explaining it to you. Now if you're a seasoned OSM contributor then it would probably not take you long to find out that there's a MapRoulette task, and probably also a discussion or explanation related to that, and also whom to contact if you want to raise an objection - but not everyone might have that level of knowledge. I think that it is no surprise that "making you feel good contributing" might not the foremost thing on the other mapper's mind at that moment. Not assigning blame to anyone here; just trying to help humans understand other humans. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-de] Flächen/Wege // Trolling in changesets
Hi, On 04/02/2018 12:03 AM, Florian Lohoff wrote: > ich habe vor ein paar Wochen angefangen in meinem Dunstkreis > (Ostwestalen-Lippe) Systematisch alle "verklebten Flächen und Wege" > aufzulösen. Eigentlich hatten wir diesbezüglich immer eine Art "Waffenstillstand" - wer neu mappt, sucht sich aus, welchen Stil er möchte, und wer eine Gegend "generalüberholt", kann das vielleicht auch tun, aber "ent-kleben um des Ent-klebens willen", d.h. wenn gar keine neue Information dazukommt ausser dass halt ent-klebt wird, das sollte man nicht tun, das gibt nur Stress (denn jemand anders könnte mit gleichem Recht wieder "ver-kleben"). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] FOSSGIS-Mitgliederversammlung am vergangenen Donnerstag
Hallo, vergangenen Donnerstag abend war die FOSSGIS-Mitgliederversammlung. Ein detailliertes Protokoll wird noch veröffentlicht, ich wollte aber zwei OSM-relevante Personalien schon vorab loswerden: 1. Christoph Hormann (imagico) wird vom FOSSGIS als Vertreter in das "Advisory Board" der OSMF entsendet. Im "Advisory Board" haben alle OSMF-Local Chapters einen Sitz, ebenso wie gewerbliche OSM-Mitglieder vom "Silber"-Status (EUR 5000/Jahr) aufwärts. Das "Advisory Board" hat zwar formell nichts zu bestimmen, aber ich denke, dass es in Zukunft schon einen gewissen Einfluss in der OSMF enfalten wird. Ich bin sicher, dass Christoph die Interessen der deutschen Community ausgezeichnet vertreten wird und danke ihm, dass er den Job macht. 2. Michael Reichert (Nakaner) hat sich auf der Mitgliederversammlung dafür stark gemacht, dass die OSM-Community sich im FOSSGIS e.V. mehr zu Hause fühlen können soll, und daher haben wir ihn gleich zum Leiter der Abteilung "OSMF Local Chapter" im FOSSGIS bestimmt. Da er jedes Posting auf der Mailingliste und im Forum liest, noch fast bevor es geschrieben wurde, hat er den Finger ganz dicht am Puls der Community und ist bestens geeignet für diese Aufgabe. Was aber nicht heisst, dass die beiden jetzt alles allein machen wollen oder sollen; Einmischung jeder Art aus der OSM-Community (ob FOSSGIS- oder OSMF-Mitglied oder nicht) ist nach wie vor stets willkommen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Absetzbarkeit von Spenden bei der OSMF
Hi, On 24.03.2018 11:59, Sven Anders wrote: > Könnte man daran etwas ändern? Ich meine das wäre doch für alle spendenden > Unternehmen und Privatleute interessant. Für Unternehmen ist das nicht so relevant (ein Unternehmen kann ja jede Ausgabe geltend machen, egal ob sie an ein gemeinnütziges Projekt spenden oder Würstchen kaufen und auf der Strasse verteilen). a Für Privatleute schon, und manchmal hängen auch weitere Vergünstigungen an der Gemeinnützigkeit, z.B. bekommt man bei PayPal günstigere Konditionen, oder diverse Arbeitgeber bieten an, dass sie Spenden verdoppeln, die ihre Mitarbeiter an gemeinnützige Unternehmen geben. Dem gegenüber stünde ein beträchtlicher einmaliger Aufwand für die Anerkennung als "charity", sowie ein erhöhter Aufwand bei der Buchhaltung. Im Augenblick will wegen "Brexit" niemand das Fass aufmachen - nicht nur ist der Aufwand hoch, man weiss auch nicht, welche Folgen der Brexit für die Organisation haben wird, und ob nach dem Brexit vielleicht plötzlich der Charity-Status gar nichts mehr nützt oder der ganze Verein in ein anderes Land umziehen muss. Also es wird immer mal nachgefragt und gibt durchaus Interesse am Thema, aber tendenziell wollen wir da erst nochmal abwarten. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Absetzbarkeit von Spenden bei der OSMF
Hallo, On 24.03.2018 10:08, Sven Anders wrote: > In Radio OSM [1] sagt Frederik, dass Spenden und der Mitgliedsbeitrag die > OSMF > in Deutschland NICHT steuerlich absetzbar seinen. Stimmt, aber das liegt nicht daran, das die OSMF im Ausland ist, sondern daran, dass die OSMF nicht gemeinnützig ist. Auch ein Brite kann seinen Mitgliedsbeitrag nicht von der Steuer absetzen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-us] Help fight advertising
Hi, On 19.03.2018 01:08, Jordan Brod wrote: > I went looking for any information printed in guidelines or code of > conduct about advertising in the attributes of a feature and I couldn't > find where it is approved/prohibited or even mentioned. Does anybody > know where the rule against this is? Firstly, many rules in OSM are not written down. Just because there's no policy that says "don't do X" doesn't mean that X is welcome in OSM, or that someone who got their X deleted has a legitimate basis for a complaint. The current situation with written rules is that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:description says "Never use description=* to add advertising messages.", and more generally our "How We Map" rules (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/How_We_Map) say that what you add must be truthful and verifiable, both of which is rarely the case for advertising. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-at] [Info] Invitation to ÖRK/MSF Mapathon Weltwassertag (fwd)
Hallo, On 03/17/2018 05:21 PM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: > Noch eine Anmerkung zum Threadthema: Ganz verstehe ich nicht, was da > eigentlich gemappt werden soll und warum man bin zum Weltwassertag damit > zuwarten soll. Bei humanitären Mapathons geht es oftmals nicht in erster Linie um die Kartendaten, die dabei herauskommen (denn deren Qualität steht oft in einem schlechten Verhältnis zum Arbeitseinsatz, und da generell die Parole "keine OSM-Erfahrung erforderlich" ausgegeben wird, müssen viele Edits danach auch noch gründlich überprüft oder schlimmstenfalls sogar gelöscht werden). Es geht auch nicht um die Rekrutierung neuer Mapper, denn die meisten von denen, die da hingehen, interessieren sich nicht für das Mappen (sagt der HOT Community Report auf Seite 17: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BskG72I0M1eOSbw6K5QvqpGwPKecJz7l). Es geht hauptsächlich um die wichtigste Währung unserer modernen Zeit, nämlich Aufmerksamkeit. Wer den Investoren bzw. Geldgebern Erfolgsgeschichten über dutzende von Menschen bieten kann, die an Mapathons teilgenommen haben, um den Armen dieser Welt zu helfen, der steht ganz vorn in der Schlange, wenn wieder Mittel eingeworben oder für Goodwill gesorgt werden muss. Um OpenStreetMap geht es dabei zu allerletzt. Du kannst natürlich jederzeit auch ausserhalb des Mapathons mappen. Achte nur darauf, das richtige Hashtag zu setzen, damit Deine Edits auch in der Erfolgsstatistik landen ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-GB] unwanted advertising in OSM in the UK
Hi, On 08.03.2018 10:44, Jez Nicholson wrote: > Interesting. The skill is in how to spot the difference between a > description and an over-the-top SEO description. I'd love to see someone > train an AI on this. Frankly, I'm finding there is way too much AI talk in OpenStreetMap recently (looking at the conference submissions, everyone seems to be eager to get rid of that pesky limiting factor "human" and quickly have AI trace all the buildings in the world, what can go wrong...). But of course you're right and spam detection is a classic area for machine learning, Bayesian filters, and the like. Jason Remillard had the same thought over on talk-us when I published a similar list (albeit 300 times longer because more SEO firms seem to be interested in spamming in the US) there. He's since come up with a spam detector: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2018-March/080330.html Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] unwanted advertising in OSM in the UK
Hi, I've identified around 60 locations in the UK that sound very much like advertising in the "description" tag. I haven't inspected them, but more often than not such POIs don't only sport marketing copy in the description tag, they also tend to lack the usual shop/amenity/whatever tags that tell you what this is supposed to be. If someone is interested in having a look: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/seo-uk.txt or as a .osm file http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/seo-uk.osm (note if you want to use that in JOSM you should do "update data" first in case someone else has already dealt with some) These likely aren't the only "spam POIs" but they're the most obvious. Some of them are close calls, where the description only has a list of services, or where the advertiser is a non-profit or even an over-eager mapper copying from a sign. Hence I'd rather see UK mappers have a look and decide what of this is worth keeping, than deciding it from the comfort of my armchair. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[OSM-talk] Please do not re-use old node IDs
Hi, we're all concerned about the environment these days. "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" is certainly something to strive for in the real world out there. However, for the second time now I've encountered a user who thought it was a good idea to reclaim old node IDs for new edits. A couple of long-deleted TIGER nodes were raised from the dead, and put to use in mapping some new roads on the other side of the planet. This sounds like a funny/quirky thing to do, and looks harmless enough on the surface. But anyone who ever looks at the history of things *will* be totally confused. Nobody who works with historic data will expect that a U.S. bus stop could become a tree in Romania. People are bound to interpret this in any number of wrong ways. It also messes up my full history extracts, where you'll now find the occasional German hiking route in the California data extract because a node that used to be in California is now part of a path that belongs to the hiking route. Long story short, please don't do it - let the API assign you new node IDs to your stuff instead of building ingenious contraptions to recycle old nodes. Thanks Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM SPAM detector
Hi, On 03/05/2018 07:03 PM, Jason Remillard wrote: > getting a diverse set of changeset from many people will insure that the > algorithm is not biased relative to where the consensus is in the > project Well strictly speaking it will ensure that the algorithm follows the opinion of those who bother to report something which might still be biased ;) There's work afoot for the OSM web site to allow changesets to be flagged as spam by any mapper. It isn't clear yet if/how the list of flagged objects will be publicly accessible but of course it could also serve as food for the filter. Bye Frederik-- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Donation from the Pineapple Fund
Hi, On 03/05/2018 04:15 AM, Daniel Koć wrote: > I wonder how OSMF plans to use it? We're leaning towards a cautious approach, i.e. not "spend it all for something cool" but use the money spread across several years. It is also clear that it would be unwise to use a one-time donation for anything in our ordinary budget lest we'd have to find a similar donor regularly! At the last face-to-face meeting of the OSMF board we discussed plans to run a "microgrant" scheme which could pay for things like (but not limited to) coding projects in the OSM ecosystem. It is possible that we will use part of the Pineapple Fund money to start something like this. Details, however, still need to be worked out and no final decisions have been made. We have exchanged 15 of the 18 BTC that we received and got £146k from it. This was thanks to Grant Slater who picked a very good time to make these exchanges. The remaining 3 BTC are still in our account but we will sell them as soon as we have a good opportunity. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Help fight advertising
Hi, On 03/03/2018 12:32 AM, OSM Volunteer stevea wrote: > Even as I knew my "contact one SEO/Marketing firm, see what happens" approach > was quite pedestrian I'd like to think of your approach - contact the business that is advertised, through the contact channel they voluntarily publish, and ask whom they've contracted for advertising - as the "front door" approach which I find preferable to the "back door" of trawling our logs for IP numbers and trying to find out who's behind it. Firstly, the "back door" approach is limited to those in OSM who have the requisite privileged access; secondly, it is likely to land you with subcontractors who have little interest in a cooperative future vision because they're just doing what they are told. So +1 for more people following the front door approach, and compiling a list of SEO companies and cataloguing their efforts and reaching out to them to politely requires compliance. In my opinion, this is something we should do as a community, locally, and not wait for someone to lead the effort. I think that "making it easier for them to conform" should have its limits in us defining and communicating the envelope of acceptable contribution. Suggesting that it should be us who develop software or invest time in curating third-party data sets would sound a bit disingenious to me; next thing that someone suggests is because we're doing their work for them we should also charge them? I wouldn't want to go down that route. And of course the non-confrontational approach can only ever be the carrot, and there must be a stick to complement it. For every conformant SEO company there will be a dozen who try to game the system, because gaming systems is their core business, that's what they do with Google & Co.; and even if we found some way to keep more advertising from entering OSM, there's several thousand advertising POIs in OSM in the US alone and they won't magically go away. So let's roll up our sleeves and get to work. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?
Hi, On 03/01/2018 10:35 PM, Jibix wrote: > I've been looking a bit around to see if there was a plan for developing > something like that anytime soon, or if it had been implemented already, > but I couldn't find. Related: Read the recent minutes of GDPR discussion held in the Licensing working group https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licensing_Working_Group Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] Help fight advertising
Hi, On 02.03.2018 01:17, Mike N wrote: > This is a good time to bring up the subject because the recent > 'locksmith' advertising was most bothersome: partly because the > locksmith industry as a whole in the US is as shady as you can get while > being barely legal, and partly because I'm sure the physical locations > had no relevance; almost no one goes to a 'locksmith shop' to get their > car door unlocked, and many of them just operate out of their residence. Yes, the locksmith advertising was one step up again - this wasn't even "unwanted advertising for a legitimate business" but "unwanted advertising for a scam". One mapper had verified one of the "local locksmith" locations in person and found it to be bogus, then called the telephone number given and was connected to (he said) an "outsourced answering serivice". The list I posted does contain a number of businesses that sound a bit shady - if not outright scams, then at least preying on those in difficult situations. Loan sharks, lawyers with dubious offers, people who claim to buy homes for cash and the like. Sometimes it's hard to tell from the outside. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Help fight advertising
Hi, On 02.03.2018 00:21, Ian Dees wrote: > I disagree that this is a "fight". Have we attempted to reach out to the > people running this operation? I've come across a lot of edits where mappers had written changeset comments against one of these one-off accounts, and were met with silence. It's not normally something the individual mapper would escalate - they write a comment and then forget about it, or simply fix it themselves after a while. I have also (sorry for the "lurkers support me in email" argument) received positive feedback from mappers about my deleting of advertising; twice, a mapper wrote to me along the lines of: "I've been annoyed by this for a while but I didn't dare remove it". > Have we asked the Operations team to > correlate IP address for the accounts that are created and used once? I have on occasion done that with my DWG hat on (when there was a particular flood of such edits) and it was usually possible to identify an IP address or email domain which was then blocked. However this is usually doesn't help for long. I don't think we're dealing with one single opponent here, I think there's an industry out there, and even if you successfully stop one firm from harming OSM, there'll be the next one just around the corner. If you get one to play by the rules, there will be the next one sensing a business advantage by ignoring the rules. (Or "being disruptive" in modern speak.) > Have we looked at what email addresses they use when signing up for > clues? It would be great to have these folks contributing the > non-advertising parts in a manner consistent with the rest of the > community, and perhaps they'd be willing to adjust their practices if we > are able to ask them. I don't know. It has never worked when I tried but I might not have tried hard enough. I think their (and their clients') interests differ too strongly from ours. Their goal is certainly not making the best map (or the best geodatabase). > Also, your characterization of US mappers being more lax about this is a > little insulting. The US mappers are not more lax, but there simply are less of them, and they are concerned with more important things than watching their home turf for an unwanted item. Combine this with a more intensive spam activity in the US than elsewhere (some spammers operate world wide but many seem concentrated on the US even if they hail from non-US IPs) and you get the current over-abundance of spam in the US. It's not your fault, and I'm not pointing a finger - I'm asking for help. There's certainly things that can be done policy-wise, establishing rules that can then be communicated to those willing to play by them; the upcoming directed editing policy will be helpful in outlining acceptable behaviour for groups who wish to contribute business information. But that's a different activity; the advertising that we currently have in OSM must be weeded out no matter what. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [OSM-talk] Privacy concerns - revive some sort of anonymous editing?
Hi, On 03/01/2018 10:35 PM, Jibix wrote: > I've read (a good few of the) related e-mails from that time [1], and I > understand that there was an important ground and a general consensus > for that decision, despite a minority of voice disappointed by this > "security rather than freedom" direction being taken. I think you're misrepresenting it when you say "security rather than freedom". "Accountability rather than privacy" would probably be more correct. > if I had a tick box "do not publicly link > changes to my account", either at account level or at changeset level, > but that every user still had the possibility to send a message to the > author of such edits, and to roll them back (even potentially with a > procedure for banning users with too much anonymous changes rolled back > by the community, as the edits-author link is not lost, it's just not > visible to users, whether registered or not). Then, I think, everyone > would be happy, or close to? Thing is, at OSM we depend very much on the community policing itself. It would not be feasible to have just a small group dealing with problems. Knowing about other edits made by the same user around the same time can give important context to judge whether something is vandalism or an honest mistake. If we take this information away from the community, we lose their help in quality assurance which we desperately need. However, I think it would be possible to limit this information to "the OSM community" i.e. everyone who has an account, and to make these people promise that they will not abuse the data for non-OSM purposes. This means that I can still see what you did last summer, but I wouldn't be allowed to use that information for non-OSM-related purposes. This is a weak protection but I don't see how we can allow stronger protection without employing a huge, privileged QA task force that has access to user information and can therefore judge better. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-us] Help fight advertising
ncounter and not just those who happen to pay money to an online visibility enhancement firm. If we allow advertisers to flood OSM with POIs, even *if* they had none of the flaws above, OSM would still lose its appeal of being made by locals who know best. What should I do? Advertising has no place in OSM. If you encounter advertising, you have a few options: * Contact the mapper responsible and politely ask them to fix it and/or stop adding advertising. In most cases, since these are throwaway accounts created by professional spammers, you won't receive a response but when in doubt, try it. * Leave the factual information in place, remove only the advertising. I recommend to do this only if the factual information seems correct and meaningful and at the right place; if the factual information is only a name and an address, ask yourself: Should *you* be the one who completes the SEO company's job for them, or rather delete the whole business? * Remove the node altogehter - recommended if the tagging is buggy. * Use the business contact information provided to call/email them and ask which SEO firm they have paid to add data to OSM, and explain how this volunteer project is damaged by the actions of the SEO firm and that this also tarnishes the business reputation. Recommended if you like a little fight; some SEO operations have already been stopped from abusing OSM that way. * Should we have some MapRoulette task or OSMCha automatism or OSMI view to detect potential advertising? Examples of advertising in OSM I've made a list of roughly 1750 nodes in the US, sorted by state, that look suspiciously like advertising. The list is algorithmically generated and almost certainly has the odd false positive, where a mapper simply described where exactly the rare tree is hidden and my algorithm thought this must be advertising, or where something really is just a harmless description of products offered. The list is certainly not exhaustive; I'm sure that using Overpass to search for tell-tale SEO signs you can come up with may more. The data is in CSV format with the columns: date_last_edited,object,created_by,last_edited_by,name,description If you're in the mood, grab a few and kick out the most outrageous abuses of OSM. And maybe we can establish ways to make this a habit in the project. Ideas welcome! I wanted to include the list here but that would probably have condemned this message to spam filters, hence: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/us-seo.txt You will be surprised about the breadth of marketing blurb that has already crept into OSM. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-ca] Manitoba buildings, addresses and high school work
Hi, On 01.03.2018 16:00, john whelan wrote: > These are all things that can be added with tools such as street > complete. Because you are adding tags to enrich the existing data you > are unlikely to to draw a building in the wrong place. > > I'd go after enriching the existing data first before thinking of > importing more buildings. My thinking here would be: 90% of the value of what you produce will be in the surveyed stuff - as John said, number of levels, type of building etc.; what he didn't mention but what certainly could also be interesting to some is the 3D modeling tags like roof shape information which will make the building look nicer on 3D maps. If 90% of the value is in the "handmade" stuff anyway, why even depend on an import for the remaining 10% - isn't there aerial imagery from which you can trace the building? With proper tooling this is quick and painless, and a student who has actually "drawn" the houses will feel much more pride in the resulting map as one who has simply taken existing data and uploaded it to OSM. One is a creative task, the other just data mangling. I'm pretty sure students would warm more to the creative task. Best Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Issues with an Ottawa school
Apologies everyone (and thanks John for stepping forward) - I have the wrong Ottawa. My school isn't even in Canada. Sorry for the noise, I'll have to ask elsewhere. On 02/22/2018 07:58 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > DWG has received a complaint about a fictional village in Africa, > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/16.36752/-3.47617 > > and after investigation it turns out that a total of 120 user accounts > have been created on January 25th, using email addresses that point to > one particular unified school district in Ottawa. > > 76 of these have made edits, some of which are legitimate tracings of > buildings in Africa, but the majority are "funny" edits like the ones > you see in the link above, in various places in Africa and occasionally > the US. Objects with names like "Get dunked on", "The Ocean of > Awsomeness with Vianey, Sarah, Maddy and Aubrey not Abby", "the abanoned > mushroom railroad", "some fenced in area", "The Monkey Park" - the usual > teenage stuff. > > I don't have the time to sort the good from the bad, and given that none > of the pupils/students were active after January 26th, I'll probably > revert the lot. > > Would anybody be willing to try and make contact with the school > district in question, and try to find out who is responsible? It is > certainly a good idea to introduce young people to OSM, but apparently > with 120 in one go, teachers/instructors were unable to provide the > necessary guidance for this to become a success. (I have not seen any > attempts of organised cleanup either.) > > It would be good if the organisers responsible had a contact into the > Ottawa OSM community so they could ask for support next time they plan > something like this. > > (As a side note, most accounts seem to have been set up using real > names, which perhaps also is not best practice for teenage editing, > *especially* if most of the data contributed is actually detrimental to > OSM.) > > If someone steps forward, I would furnish them with details in a > personal email so as to avoid publicly tarnishing the reputation of the > school in question ;) > > Our aim is not to accuse, but to help them understand the issue, and do > better next time. It would be ideal if whoever steps forward possesses > the diplomacy skills necessary to get that across. > > Bye > Frederik > -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-de] OSMF sucht Rechenzentrum
Hallo, die Operations Working Group der OpenStreetMap Foundation hat den Großteil ihrer Server, u.a. diejenigen, auf denen die API(-Datenbank) läuft, in drei britischen Rechenzentren stehen. Eines der drei muss geräumt werden, da die Räumlichkeiten künftig anders genutzt werden. Die OWG sucht daher ein Rechenzentrum in der Europäischen Union, dessen Netzwerklatenz zu den bisherigen Standorten idealerweise unter 20 ms beträgt. Gesucht wird ein Rack für die Server, die sich im Eigentum der OSMF befinden. Weitere Details zur Ausschreibung findet ihr hier: https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2018/02/19/osmf-request-for-proposals-data-centre-2018/ Die OSMF ist bereit, für die Dienstleistung zu bezahlen, kann sich jedoch keine marktüblichen Preise leisten. Potentielle Standorte sind daher Hochschulrechenzentren oder gewerbliche Anbieter, die das Projekt unterstützen möchten. Wir denken, dass es sicherlich potentielle Partner in Deutschland gibt. Es würde auch zum nicht unerheblichen Anteil der deutschen Community am OpenStreetMap-Projekt passen, wenn wir nicht nur zu OSM beitragen sondern auch einen Rechnerstandort in Deutschland hätten. Die OWG hat leider nicht die personellen Ressourcen, um potentielle Partner zu kontaktieren, daher sollten wir uns als deutsche Community ein bisschen an der Arbeit beteiligen. Hat jemand von Euch möglicherweise Kontakte zu potentiellen Hostern - gewerblich oder im Hochschulbereich? Habt ihr Ideen, wen man fragen könnte? Meldet Euch doch hier mit einem Followup oder direkt per Mail an Michael oder mich, und wir koordinieren dann das Vorgehen ein bisschen. Viele Grüße Michael Reichert und Frederik Ramm -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim on the main page
Jason, On 02/18/2018 08:07 PM, Jason Remillard wrote: > There is plenty of money around this space to pay for a full time > system administrator staff and some developers. Pokémon Go netted 600 > million dollars in the first three months. Mapbox just go $164 million > dollar investment. I don't understand why you, Tom, lonvia are not > paid, full time employees of OSMF by now. Mapbox is doing a great job > with ID development, but obviously they are not going to seriously > fund our tiles and geocoding. Many people seem to believe that the natural growth path for a nonprofit organisation is identical to that of a for-profit organisation. Acquire more funds, hire more people, invest, grow, rinse & repeat - bigger, better, faster, more, year after year. This is certainly a *possible* course of action. But it is desirable? Have a look at the OSMF board, a mixed bunch of people elected by the members. Are you sure that a seasoned developer or sysadmin would even *want* a paid job where they are subject to the whims of an elected board, with a potentially modified "strategy" year after year (as majorities change due to new elections)? Would that not be a job like Dilbert's with his pointy-haired boss? Ah, you'll say, easy: We hire a CEO in addition to that, so there is more continuity, and the CEO can then boss the technicians around, and the board only adjusts the general direction occasionally. That's also something people often suggest, again following the usual corporate lines. Growth of this kind entrenches the power of the established organisation over the volunteers. Inevitably, the organisation shifts from the initial "a bunch of volunteers have founded an organisation and elected a board to do the basic housekeeping of financials and intellectual property rights" to "a central organisation manages their volunteers". The growth of the central organisation brings with it increased funding requirements (salary for CEO, developers, and sysadmins; soon after, cost for a fixed office, office management, community managers, and so on). This money has to come from somewhere (add salary for professional fundraisers). Whoever gives us the money can make all sorts of demands on our organisation and community. Shrinking the organisation is rarely an option, so we'll need the funds to continue to live, and we are much easier to control by "big capital" (if you look at usual funding sources, you can safely say "big US capital"). We will be subject to politics much more than now; we will have to publish regular success stories (and gloss over failures) just like any business does to maintain a good image. We will have to kick out people in our ranks who soil our image lest the funders will back out. We'll have to start doing silly side projects that the community would never have started in their own, just to tick some boxes with a funding partner. Do we want to sell our soul? And for what precisely in return? These are important questions to think about. I am sure there are potential growth paths that do *not* require us to blindly submit to the ways of commerce - just like we never blindly submitted to traditional GIS practices ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-us] RetroFitness - file verification
Hi, On 12.02.2018 17:21, Margaret Sekscinski wrote: > Please let me know if we can answer any questions! I notice that the "addr:full" problem from the previous Walmart import hasn't been resolved. Is this an oversight, or was there a decision by the community that it's fine to have addr:full instead of proper addr:street/addr:housenumber etc. tags? The wiki currently says, about addr:full: "Use this for a full-text, often multi-line, address if you find the structured address fields unsuitable for denoting the address of this particular location." and goes on to warn: "Beware that these strings can hardly be parsed by software: "1200 West Sunset Boulevard Suite 110A" is still better represented as addr:housenumber=1200 + addr:street=West Sunset Boulevard + addr:flats=Suite 110A." Since we're only talking 150 or so points here, would it be too much to ask to specify the correct addresses for each instead of relying on community members to repair the data post-import? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-at] Neutralitätserklärung
Hallo, On 12.02.2018 10:27, Johann Haag wrote: > Als langjähriges Mitglied in der OpenStreetMap Community stelle ich fest, > dass die Plattform talk-at eine kritische Entscheidungsgewalt im Projekt > OpenStreetMap innehat. Das ist in dieser vereinfachenden Form nicht richtig. In OSM entscheidet letztendlich "die Community", und die ist schwer zu greifen. Selbst "die Plattform talk-at" ist nur schwer zu definieren und im Fluss, aber talk-at ist nur eine von vielen Möglichkeiten für die Community, eine Meinung zu bilden und ggf. durchzusetzen. > Ich fordere daher sämtliche talk-at User dazu auf, hier eine Erklärung > abzugeben, nicht für ein andere kommerzielles Kartenprojekt wie > wien.gv.at/stadtplan <http://wien.gv.at/stadtplan>, Wien OGD, BEV, Google, > Navteq, Teleatlas, TomTom > Maps, Here oder ähnliche Plattformen zu arbeiten. Ich finde es gut und richtig, wenn Mapper, die im Rahmen ihrer Berufstätigkeit zu OSM beitragen, dies auch offen sagen (z.B. "ich bearbeite OSM im Auftrag der Firma X, um Y zu erreichen"). Wenn jemand allerdings beruflich mit Karten zu tun hat, und privat OSM betreibt, dann finde ich nicht, dass er oder sie das offenlegen muss. (Im Gegenteil, vielleicht hat der Arbeitgeber ja sogar etwas dagegen und die Person müsste berufliche Nachteile befürchten, wenn herauskommt, dass sie der "Konkurrenz" hilft!) Du hast im Forum des öfteren den Generalverdacht geäußert, auf den Mailinglisten wäre das große Geld unterwegs. Ich weiss nicht, was Dich zu dieser Fehleinschätzung bringt; wir können gern darüber reden, aber hier reinzuplatzen und erstmal von jedem eine "Erklärung" zu verlangen, ist ein bisschen unhöflich. Sollen wir Dir vielleicht auch noch erklären, dass wir unsere Steuern brav zahlen, unser PKW vorschriftsmässig angemeldet ist und wir noch nie was im Supermarkt geklaut haben? Viele Grüße Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-at] Adressimport Wien
Hi, On 02/09/2018 12:17 AM, Michael Reichert wrote: > Die beiden Benutzerkonten haben zwischenzeitlich ihre Benutzernamen > getauscht. Ich kommentiere das mal lieber nicht. ;-) Ein Versuch, die selbst aufgestellte These "bei der Mailingliste weiss man im Gegensatz zum Forum ja nicht, wer wer ist" zu durchlöchern? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
Re: [Talk-de] OpenMetroMaps - Ideenwerkstatt am 11. Februar 2018 in Berlin
Hi, On 02/05/18 19:14, Stefan Kaufmann wrote: >> Bei OSM sind wir da >> anderer Meinung, schließlich beanspruchen wir sogar Schutzrechte auf >> unsere Faktensammlung (und in Europa gibt es diese Rechte auch). > > „Wir“ finde ich eine etwas sportliche Aussage. Ich z.B. finde diese > Haltung gefaehrlich. Ja, natürlich gibt es in OSM eine große Breite verschiedener Meinungen. Die Meinung, die sich am Ende eines rund fünf Jahre dauernden Prozesses durchgesetzt hat und die OSM als Projekt daher vertritt, ist allerdings die, dass unsere Daten als Datensammlung ein Schutzrecht geniessen, das wir mit Hilfe unserer ODbL-Lizenz gestalten. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
