Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Are the insiders the ones that coded Struts out the door or the ones that are bringing new code to the table? If you meant the ones that coded Struts out the door then if they refuse to do anything about lessons learned, I would not listen to them. I would listen to the outsiders who told them they were headed down a bad path. Do not think I think Don Brown does bad work. I think he is probably by far the most talented committer. He is almost as good as the outsiders. ;-) On 3/30/06, Hubert Rabago <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Al, > > Not everyone who posts on the lists are insiders. > > If you want some insider info, go to the actual people doing the work, > like Don Brown. > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-dev&m=114369603519450&w=2 > > Hubert > > On 3/30/06, Al Eridani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/29/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the > > > "describing" that you are referring to. > > > > I just go by what the insiders have published here. If the insiders have > > no credibility, let's turn off the lights and go home. > > > > When the WebWork deal was announced it was made clear that WebWork > > was so much better that there was no point in trying to shoehorn it in > > the current codebase, but a new Struts Action 2 was going to be created > > that was going to be, essentially, WebWork. > > > > The current Struts, so bad that it could not be fixed, was going to be > > re-christened as Struts Action 1 and, for all intents and purposes, > > mothballed. > > > > Of course, it was not put this bluntly, but that was the gist of it. > > > > Now, to me this qualifies more as a takeover than a merger; a revolution > > not evolution. Which, by the way, is fine with me. > > > > What is not so fine is trying to cling to the Struts name because of its > > value as a brand, even though the software is completely different. > > > > If you are now interested in JSF, more power to you, just let go of the > > Struts name. If the other committers think that WebWork is much > > better, they should join the WebWork project and leave the reins of > > the Struts project with someone else. > > > > Names that confuse are not very useful. > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Al, Not everyone who posts on the lists are insiders. If you want some insider info, go to the actual people doing the work, like Don Brown. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-dev&m=114369603519450&w=2 Hubert On 3/30/06, Al Eridani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 3/29/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the > > "describing" that you are referring to. > > I just go by what the insiders have published here. If the insiders have > no credibility, let's turn off the lights and go home. > > When the WebWork deal was announced it was made clear that WebWork > was so much better that there was no point in trying to shoehorn it in > the current codebase, but a new Struts Action 2 was going to be created > that was going to be, essentially, WebWork. > > The current Struts, so bad that it could not be fixed, was going to be > re-christened as Struts Action 1 and, for all intents and purposes, > mothballed. > > Of course, it was not put this bluntly, but that was the gist of it. > > Now, to me this qualifies more as a takeover than a merger; a revolution > not evolution. Which, by the way, is fine with me. > > What is not so fine is trying to cling to the Struts name because of its > value as a brand, even though the software is completely different. > > If you are now interested in JSF, more power to you, just let go of the > Struts name. If the other committers think that WebWork is much > better, they should join the WebWork project and leave the reins of > the Struts project with someone else. > > Names that confuse are not very useful. > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
On 3/29/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the > "describing" that you are referring to. I just go by what the insiders have published here. If the insiders have no credibility, let's turn off the lights and go home. When the WebWork deal was announced it was made clear that WebWork was so much better that there was no point in trying to shoehorn it in the current codebase, but a new Struts Action 2 was going to be created that was going to be, essentially, WebWork. The current Struts, so bad that it could not be fixed, was going to be re-christened as Struts Action 1 and, for all intents and purposes, mothballed. Of course, it was not put this bluntly, but that was the gist of it. Now, to me this qualifies more as a takeover than a merger; a revolution not evolution. Which, by the way, is fine with me. What is not so fine is trying to cling to the Struts name because of its value as a brand, even though the software is completely different. If you are now interested in JSF, more power to you, just let go of the Struts name. If the other committers think that WebWork is much better, they should join the WebWork project and leave the reins of the Struts project with someone else. Names that confuse are not very useful. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
The hullabaloo, Larry, is about the stability of the platform with a bunch of committers who don't appear to be up to the job and who are not willing to look at what went wrong. The stability of a platform like Struts is a big deal. This is a time to decide to go with or to get off the Struts wagon. How the committers respond has a lot to do with this. On 3/29/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/29/06, Al Eridani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their > > little-known framework is re-branded as Struts. > > > > Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and > > WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world. > > It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you. > > Seriously, this seems like a win-win. > > Struts gets a better technical design, WW gets some recognition and a > good brand. > > The users get the best of both worlds. > > I don't really see what all the hullabaloo is about really... > > Larry > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
On 3/29/06, Al Eridani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their > little-known framework is re-branded as Struts. > > Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and > WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world. > It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you. Seriously, this seems like a win-win. Struts gets a better technical design, WW gets some recognition and a good brand. The users get the best of both worlds. I don't really see what all the hullabaloo is about really... Larry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
On 3/29/06, Al Eridani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/29/06, Joe Germuska <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. > > The way it has been described here it looks to me more like a takeover > than a merger. You need to pay attention to the credibility of who is doing the "describing" that you are referring to. Craig
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
On 3/29/06, Joe Germuska <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. The way it has been described here it looks to me more like a takeover than a merger. > As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to > carry on WebWork under its own name, etc. So perhaps there is > another group of developers whose motivations are not what you > personally might guess they are. That shows they are not stupid. They stand to gain a lot when their little-known framework is re-branded as Struts. Just go to craigslist, DICE or other job sites, search for Struts and WebWork and compare the resulting numbers. That is the real world. It translates into real dollars. That is branding for you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Hello Joe. Haven't seen a post from you in a while. Got me thinking. I just wanted to say, for the record, you and Niall and your fellow team members rock! I have been a subscriber to this list for years. I don't use Struts anymore because I don't author HTML/HTTP browser applications anymore. So many of you may not know who I am because I haven't posted in a while. There was a time when I volunteered a lot answering questions on this list though, and of course asking a ton of questions as a user. Struts, WebWork, Spring, scriplets, tags, framework, no framework, J2EE, no J2EE, I always tried not to get caught up in the implementation details (sounds funny for a programmer to say such a thing). Frameworks, methods and practices come and go as do other work trends. HTTP/HTML is only one possible combination of a large number available in the seven-layer network. To stake too much on any of this is to limit yourself as a programmer. What's important never changes -- it's the people! (Oh yeah, lookup tables remain important too, I guess. ;) ) And the job of a programmer is nothing more than to make an electronic device do what he, or his customer, wants it to do. So, I just wanted to say, to Joe, Niall, Hubert, Craig, James and the others (please don't think because I didn't mention your name that I don't appreciate you -- I remember many others, developers as well as users), Struts was a great framework to me because you guys helped your users with a professional and friendly attitude, even when we asked the same old dumb questions again and again. You helped me and many others get our jobs done and put food on the table. Whether Struts or WebWork or any other framework is here today or tomorrow isn't that important. You guys will still be around, plugging away, answering your users' questions and treating others with respect and dignity, and making whatever project with which you are associated a winner. Keep up the great work. Sincerely, Erik -Original Message- >From: Joe Germuska <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Mar 29, 2006 11:26 AM >To: user@struts.apache.org >Subject: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize) > >At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote: >>It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the >>two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people >>should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a >>tooth pulled. So if they say it... > >Here you ascribe an outlook on things to "the Struts people" which >assumes that your motivations are theirs. > >Frankly, this is inaccurate for me. I see open source software as >cooperative, not competitive, even between projects. > >I think Niall's answer to the question "why did Struts development >stagnate" is pretty much what I would say. I'm not doing this for >bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare >time. I contribute when I can. If it helps anyone, that's great. >As far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone. > >Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. >As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to >carry on WebWork under its own name, etc. So perhaps there is >another group of developers whose motivations are not what you >personally might guess they are. > >Joe > >-- >Joe Germuska >[EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://blog.germuska.com > >"You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and >even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed. Try something new." > -- Robert Moog > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
At 7:09 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote: Joe Germuska wrote: At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote: It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a tooth pulled. So if they say it... Here you ascribe an outlook on things to "the Struts people" which assumes that your motivations are theirs. Frankly, this is inaccurate for me. I see open source software as cooperative, not competitive, even between projects. LOL. Well, Joe, wouldn't a casual observer say that you are taking this position because your team lost the technical competition? Some might; some might not. Whether or not they said it wouldn't mean it was correct. Of course, you'd expect the losers to rationalize things saying it wasn't *really* a competition. No. You would expect this. I would not. So your assertion that "it hasn't hurt anyone" is quite debatable. By leveraging the extra placement and visibility advantages of ASF to promote an inferior body of work, you have been breathing the oxygen of an innovative project that really was doing the real work of pushing forward the state of the art. See, I am not doing any of these things. I'm just a person who has a job to do, and I choose to work with others to help me get this job done. Everything else you have written is your own window dressing on the situation. But if you think these guys like Patrick and Jason aren't ego-driven, surely you're kidding yourself. Just as you'd be kidding yourself if you think Craig, say, isn't extremely ego-driven. None of these people, as far as I can see, make the slightest attempt even to hide it. Frankly, I don't care what their motivations are. But, Joe, I think that, most poeple, in their heart of hearts, don't believe this kind of line. It's a bunch of politically correct drivel really. Get real. I just thought I should point out that for all of your self-assured declarations about how the world works, you are not necessarily right. You can try to speak for "most people", but you don't speak for me. Really, Joe -- Joe Germuska [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://blog.germuska.com "You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed. Try something new." -- Robert Moog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
Joe Germuska wrote: At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote: It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a tooth pulled. So if they say it... Here you ascribe an outlook on things to "the Struts people" which assumes that your motivations are theirs. Frankly, this is inaccurate for me. I see open source software as cooperative, not competitive, even between projects. LOL. Well, Joe, wouldn't a casual observer say that you are taking this position because your team lost the technical competition? Of course, you'd expect the losers to rationalize things saying it wasn't *really* a competition. But the fact remains that projects in the same space are competing to offer the most compelling solutions in their application space. It should be a friendly, good-natured rivalry, yes. But the logic and structure of this is one of competition. It is a marketplace (more of ideas than money and so on) but a market of sorts nonetheless and a market system is something with a logic and structure of competition. When Patrick and Jason wrote stuff like "Struts really sucks" and so on, there was a clear sense that this was a competitive situation and they were kind of throwing down the gauntlet. I think Niall's answer to the question "why did Struts development stagnate" is pretty much what I would say. I'm not doing this for bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare time. I contribute when I can. If it helps anyone, that's great. As far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone. Well, in this case, there is the additional problem that Struts and Webwork, while competing, as I say, were not competing on an even playing field. This is why the Webwork people, despite having a much better product, have far fewer users. By bringing in Webwork and abandoning the existing Struts codebase, you are accepting that all the people who are currently using Struts would have been better off using Webwork. (I suggest that you not try to attack this point, because it looks unassailable.) So your assertion that "it hasn't hurt anyone" is quite debatable. By leveraging the extra placement and visibility advantages of ASF to promote an inferior body of work, you have been breathing the oxygen of an innovative project that really was doing the real work of pushing forward the state of the art. Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to carry on WebWork under its own name, etc. So perhaps there is another group of developers whose motivations are not what you personally might guess they are. Well, they've made a Faustian sort of deal in order to get more publicity for their work. But if you think these guys like Patrick and Jason aren't ego-driven, surely you're kidding yourself. Just as you'd be kidding yourself if you think Craig, say, isn't extremely ego-driven. None of these people, as far as I can see, make the slightest attempt even to hide it. Of course, when the ego-driven people are forced to admit that their work was inferior, then sure, they can then say that this isn't really a competition, and they don't mind because they don't have egos and so on. But, Joe, I think that, most poeple, in their heart of hearts, don't believe this kind of line. It's a bunch of politically correct drivel really. Get real. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Joe - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Open Source Motivations (Re: I Apologize)
At 5:30 PM +0200 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky wrote: It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a tooth pulled. So if they say it... Here you ascribe an outlook on things to "the Struts people" which assumes that your motivations are theirs. Frankly, this is inaccurate for me. I see open source software as cooperative, not competitive, even between projects. I think Niall's answer to the question "why did Struts development stagnate" is pretty much what I would say. I'm not doing this for bragging rights, and it's not the only thing I like to do in my spare time. I contribute when I can. If it helps anyone, that's great. As far as I can tell it hasn't hurt anyone. Also note that the WebWork team is supporting this merger process. As far as I know, none of them have vigorously objected, nor sworn to carry on WebWork under its own name, etc. So perhaps there is another group of developers whose motivations are not what you personally might guess they are. Joe -- Joe Germuska [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://blog.germuska.com "You really can't burn anything out by trying something new, and even if you can burn it out, it can be fixed. Try something new." -- Robert Moog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > [...] but don't tell other people what to do. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Larry Meadors wrote: What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up. Larry, I already refuted this "complex" argument of yours in my post entitled "Debate and Free Speech 101". I pointed out that criticizing U.S. policy in Iraq does not obligate the person criticizing to go to Iraq himself and resolve the problems. It is also silly to suggest that when the Struts 1.x codebase has become so technically obsolescent that the Struts developers themselves don't want to work on it, that I should do so. The question of why development on that codebase stagnated is quite appropriate. If you don't care or don't have an opinion on that topic, then just don't participate in the discussion, but don't tell other people what to do. I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you. It's not complex logic evading anybody. It's simply that you are trotting out a logical fallacy. In any case, as regards telling _me_ to "put up or shut up", you are talking to somebody who has made significant contributions to this application space. To the best of my knowledge, you have made no comparable contributions. This really takes a lot of gall on your part. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white suits gave you. :-) Larry On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical? On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only say this after a personal attack. And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind of moral equivalence out of this. ...then follow it with another... Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism and other sophistry in college. ...and another. This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world. I see two courses of action for you Jon: If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for training on the Next Big Thing. If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). Larry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Michael Jouravlev wrote: On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good code. The Struts developers don't even think that. Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it. Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to this ;-) Well, Michael, there's a saying that goes something like this: "When the pope tells you there's a God, he's just doing his job. When he comes out and says there is no God, then maybe he's on to something." If Jason and Patrick and other Webwork people sing the praises of Webwork, they are also just "doing their job". It's hardly surprising. Also, if the Struts people say Struts is great and work on Struts, that is hardly worthy of much comment either. However, when the Struts developers say they don't want to work on the Struts codebase any more and just bring in the Webwork codebase and work on that, well... this, unlike the previous cases, is really a rather interesting invent, maybe not quite so much as the pope declaring himself an atheist. But I can say that when I heard about the Struts/Webwork thing it came as a great surprise to me. It has some clear implications too. No matter how you shake it, the two things were technical *competitors*. Normally, the Struts people should be about as happy to say that Webwork is better as to have a tooth pulled. So if they say it... But also, it leads to the question of why Struts was not able to stay competitive with Webwork. Struts development clearly did stagnate. There is no getting around this. I got into this whole discussion originally by making certain comments about open-source project management practices. I was actually then shocked by the rather know-it-all tone of people like Craig McClanahan and Ted Husted. Both simply responded to these questions as in: "Here at ASF, we do it like this". I wrote a moderately sharp response, first to Craig here: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/123265 It has been suggested that this was an example of me being extremely rude to Craig. I have reread the message and I don't think so. While it may cause people discomfort, it is perfectly legitimate and reasonable to suggest that people who themselves failed to keep their project up-to-date with the state of the art, should take a much more humble approach to these questions. That was the overall thrust of the message I have link above. The above-linked message was a reasoned reply that was not the kind of rabid froth-at-the-mouth personal attack like I got subjected to subsequently. I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good code"? Well, as I said, that the Struts developers decline to work on their codebase and bring in Webwork has some inescapable implications about the relative quality of those 2 things. It has been accepted basically that Webwork is better. However, those aren't the only two such projects. There are actually lots of web application frameworks. Some of them could well be better than Webwork. Have you evaluated Stripes yourself? Oh, and by the way, Michael, in your opinion, why did Struts development stagnate? Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Ignore them. Both DakotaJackAss and Jonathan Revulsion thrive on what they perceive as inflammatory responses. There is no use responding to anything they post, because they never stop and ALWAYS reply to anything you send their way. -Dennis "Larry Meadors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/29/2006 10:01 AM Please respond to "Struts Users Mailing List" To "Dakota Jack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc "Struts Users Mailing List" Subject Re: I Apologize What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up. I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you. Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white suits gave you. :-) Larry On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your > points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical? > > > > > On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? > > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance > > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. > > OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have > debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only > say this after a personal attack. > > > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind > > of moral equivalence out of this. > > ...then follow it with another... > > > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism > > and other sophistry in college. > > ...and another. > > This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro > world. > > I see two courses of action for you Jon: > > If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find > something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent > ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as > you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for > training on the Next Big Thing. > > If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something > about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn > smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you > can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. > > But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). > > Larry > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > -- > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." > ~Dakota Jack~ > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
What I am saying is that people need to put up or shut up. I am sorry if that complex logic evaded you. Perhaps you need to take the meds that those nice people in white suits gave you. :-) Larry On 3/28/06, Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your > points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical? > > > > > On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? > > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance > > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. > > OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have > debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only > say this after a personal attack. > > > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind > > of moral equivalence out of this. > > ...then follow it with another... > > > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism > > and other sophistry in college. > > ...and another. > > This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro > world. > > I see two courses of action for you Jon: > > If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find > something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent > ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as > you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for > training on the Next Big Thing. > > If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something > about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn > smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you > can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. > > But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). > > Larry > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > -- > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." > ~Dakota Jack~ > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Jonathan Revusky wrote: Bart Busschots wrote: What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore? Oh, people know what the question is. It's just that apparently the question is taboo, and rather than answer it, they engage in personal attacks. The question is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?" You see, what happened is that, though it still has more users because of placement and visibility factors, Struts did, in fact, become less and less competitive with other things in the same space. This whole thing has led to a so-called "merger" with one of the more prominent competitors, Webwork. The term "merger" is (deliberately) misleading actually. Struts Action 2, currently in the Apache incubator, *is* Webwork. This means that the Struts developers have recognized that the Struts 1.x codebase is obsolete. And, of course, if they themselves recognize this, then the premise of the above question, that Struts development did in fact stagnate, is not in dispute by anybody. The problem is that, apparently, this is a taboo question. To create a distraction, a lot of people start with a lot of nasty personal attacks. And in an amazing twist, people then come in, as Henri Yandell did recently, and insinuate that I, one of the people who posed this question, was engaging in personal attacks. Indeed and that is probably not a healthy thing, however, going on and on and on about it for weeks on end is not actually getting us anywhere. The question has been asked (and asked and asked .) and it is clear that no answer is coming. There is no point in hammering on about it anymore IMO. All it is doing is annoying people and driving people away from Struts. All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone totally belly up. This is because, rather than address this perfectly legitimate question, people start the personal attacks. It is true that if one group of people resorts to slinging mud everywhere, everybody ends up with mud all over him, and a casual observer cannot distinguish the real mud-slingers from anybody else. This is why it can be an effective distraction tactic. This is used in political campaigns and so forth. There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts user and I find that this list has become a pure annoyance of late rather than being helpful like it used to be. I wonder about this, frankly. Posts that have primarily political content are very readily identifiable. They would not seem to impose any more burden on somebody who is not interested than the many narrow technical posts that don't interest you. I spend more time deleting posts than I do reading posts and I'm sure I'm missing good stuff too that is accidently getting nuked along with the continued rantings and ravings on this one topic. This same topic has now been re-hashed over and over again under many titles. It's just pointless. The more email people get on this topic the LESS attention they will pay to it. Hence, the longer this keeps up the less anyone will care whether or not you ever get the answer you want. The personal attack stuff is really annoying and I can see why you and others would want that to stop. But I think you should have a look at which faction is doing that and understand why they do it. That's quite illuminating. This is not helping struts. This kind of conversation should not be on the main users list. I'm not so sure of this. I think the discussion is legitimate. The topic of a discussion does not absolutely need to be some narrow technical point in order to be of interest to Struts users. It may have BEEN legitimate traffic but it has become nothing more than an annoyance and a disstraction at this stage. It is not enlightening anyone anymore. Also, note that when you use a product like Struts, most of the narrow technical threads that occur are not of interest to one anyway. Only a few are. This is true but those narrow threads tend to be short and to the point. Almost all signal and almost no noise. They also serve as a great resource for others in the future. What I have noticed here and on other ASF groups is that there are a lot of people who don't quite understand what open source software is about. I mean, they understand that it's free and they like that, but they have a mental model of this that there are some hotshot coders who write this stuff, they toss it over the fence and then you can go pick it up and use it. The idea that there is a two-way communication process between the developers and users is not something they quite grasp. Users who give feedback are, to some (admittedly lesser) extent, collaborators as well. There are people suggesting -- typically the same people who initiate the mudslinging -- that users have no say, and that nobody should be listening to mere users. Well I'm not one of those people. I have a very clear understa
Re: I Apologize
I have been on this list since '00 and this is the fastest they have been releasing. Thanks for the fast pace devs. (I do not mean to be sarcastic, I do think the pace is quite fast). .V "Why did Struts development stagnate?" - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Karsten Krieg wrote: Karsten, for a response to your points below, I direct you to my response to Bart Busschots in this same thread. You may consider that this is also response to you. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Guys, Struts is being used, even 1.x. People are asking questions about their problems and do's and don'ts. They (at least including me) don't want to see and hear you all acting like some pubertal teenagers fighting about whatever. Stop shouting at each other, take this discussion to the developer list and for Christ sake stop being SOOO nerdy. Statistics for the last two weeks: Irrelevant flaming at each other: 380 User questions asked and answered: 591 Think about that. Regards Karsten Krieg OMG, hopefully I've not feed the trolls... "Dakota Jack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb am 29.03.2006 07:51:37: Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical? On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only say this after a personal attack. And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind of moral equivalence out of this. ...then follow it with another... Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism and other sophistry in college. ...and another. This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world. I see two courses of action for you Jon: If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for training on the Next Big Thing. If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). Larry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Henri Yandell wrote: On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not to retaliate with much the same approach. You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by "retaliate with much the same approach"? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing what I did at some point? When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an email by any name but my own? I mean the same style of approach, rather than details. Methinks you are trying to weasel out. :-( The "details" in question involve posting private correspondence to a public list, spoofing identities. Also, there is a continual pattern of people responding to messages with personal insults and making no attempt to engage in legitimate debate. These are not little "details" that can be abstracted away unless your intent is to mislead and deceive. My messages have always focused on legitimate arguments and debate. To abstract away with this "same style of approach" line seems basically mendacious. So, Henri, I'd like you to retract the above statement, the stuff about how the people engaging in these attacks against me were "retaliating with the same approach". It constitutes a very unworthy attempt on your part to distort the truth and misprepresent what has been happening. I read this several times and I consider it to be such a distortion of the truth that you owe me an apology. Now, if you still maintain that behavior of mine has been broadly comparable to this James Mitchell posting private email or Rick Reumann's lame spoof or even Larry Measors's juvenile "butt-monkey" post with no attempts to say anything legitimate, then please produce such examples. I will make it very easy for you. Every single message I have posted here up to this point in the conversation can be found here: http://revusky.com/strutsmessages.txt The stuff I wrote is clearly distinct from the quoted material by the usual convention. The quoted material begins with >, right? The quoted material is necessary for context, of course. It's a straight text file, so you can simply point out line numbers, if need be. I submit to you that I have never engaged in this kind of personal attack. I have said sharp things to people, but they were appropriate -- or at the very least understandable -- in the context of a legitimate, perhaps heated debate. If this is not so, in your opinion, provide the line numbers. Otherwise, this stuff about how I did the same things to these people that they are doing, you have to retract it because it's not true. If someone enters the conversation with a perceived aggression, retaliating with the same aggression is going to get you nowhere other than the warmth generated by our combined cpus, network cards and the wonder of adrenalin bursts. Here is the same mendacious discourse: "the same aggression" etcetera. You are clearly implying that I have done the same things these people have done. This is not true. It takes a 5-second reply to make a flamewar, it takes a 5 minute reply to avoid one. Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth. Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like. Also, to be saying: "I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad guy" could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of "nudge, nudge, wink, wink". I really hope that wasn't your intention. "I don't like JR's style, but I'm not going to give up my own style in reacting to the email". Well, if a key component of your "style" involves mendacity, I think you really ought to find some other "style", not necessarily adopting my style, but simply a "style" that incorporates a respect for the truth. Again, I provide you everything I ever wrote on this list. http://revusky.com/strutsmessages.txt If you want to claim that I engage in ad-hominem attacks like these people, back up what you say. I don't think you can. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ P.S. In your opinion, why did Struts development stagnate? As a general opinion aimed at everyone: [all] Ranting, moving between private/public threads, spoofing and joking without it being very obvious [that's why we have the smilies, use 'em] are of no value to the community, it's something an individual does to neutralize the emotion and adrenalin - and it harms your own position within the community. Take time over replies, take time over the original emails (don't just do a braindump and send, th
Re: I Apologize
Bart Busschots wrote: What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore? Oh, people know what the question is. It's just that apparently the question is taboo, and rather than answer it, they engage in personal attacks. The question is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?" You see, what happened is that, though it still has more users because of placement and visibility factors, Struts did, in fact, become less and less competitive with other things in the same space. This whole thing has led to a so-called "merger" with one of the more prominent competitors, Webwork. The term "merger" is (deliberately) misleading actually. Struts Action 2, currently in the Apache incubator, *is* Webwork. This means that the Struts developers have recognized that the Struts 1.x codebase is obsolete. And, of course, if they themselves recognize this, then the premise of the above question, that Struts development did in fact stagnate, is not in dispute by anybody. The problem is that, apparently, this is a taboo question. To create a distraction, a lot of people start with a lot of nasty personal attacks. And in an amazing twist, people then come in, as Henri Yandell did recently, and insinuate that I, one of the people who posed this question, was engaging in personal attacks. All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone totally belly up. This is because, rather than address this perfectly legitimate question, people start the personal attacks. It is true that if one group of people resorts to slinging mud everywhere, everybody ends up with mud all over him, and a casual observer cannot distinguish the real mud-slingers from anybody else. This is why it can be an effective distraction tactic. This is used in political campaigns and so forth. There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts user and I find that this list has become a pure annoyance of late rather than being helpful like it used to be. I wonder about this, frankly. Posts that have primarily political content are very readily identifiable. They would not seem to impose any more burden on somebody who is not interested than the many narrow technical posts that don't interest you. The personal attack stuff is really annoying and I can see why you and others would want that to stop. But I think you should have a look at which faction is doing that and understand why they do it. That's quite illuminating. This is not helping struts. This kind of conversation should not be on the main users list. I'm not so sure of this. I think the discussion is legitimate. The topic of a discussion does not absolutely need to be some narrow technical point in order to be of interest to Struts users. Also, note that when you use a product like Struts, most of the narrow technical threads that occur are not of interest to one anyway. Only a few are. What I have noticed here and on other ASF groups is that there are a lot of people who don't quite understand what open source software is about. I mean, they understand that it's free and they like that, but they have a mental model of this that there are some hotshot coders who write this stuff, they toss it over the fence and then you can go pick it up and use it. The idea that there is a two-way communication process between the developers and users is not something they quite grasp. Users who give feedback are, to some (admittedly lesser) extent, collaborators as well. There are people suggesting -- typically the same people who initiate the mudslinging -- that users have no say, and that nobody should be listening to mere users. I think these kinds of attitudes have been a factor that led to the stagnation. I'm not saying the converstaion shouldn't be had, but I don't need it swamping my mailbox every day for weeks on end. If this list doesn't revert to some level of sensability soon I'll just un-subscribe and TBH I very much doubt I'll be the first or the last to go. Bart, I have just checked one thing, I was curious about it. You have written a total of 8 messages on this list. 2 of the 8 messages have been dedicated to decrying the existence of this discussion. Of the remaining 6 posts, I don't see you helping anybody out. The one exception *might* be this post. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/121858 But that is not exactly an extensive record of extending yourself to help anybody. But basically, aside from that one and the two other posts decrying this thread, you simply ask some narrow technical question when you need some help and some good samaritan helps you. Well, in short, Bart, you seem to be one of the many people who takes and gives nothing back. That's normal, that's most people in this open source world. However, to be such a person and then be "threatening" to unsubscribe is rather silly, I think. Anyway, since you asked what the question was, I told
Re: I Apologize
What IS the question? Does anyone actually KNOW anymore? All I know is that the signal to noise ratio on this list has gone totally belly up. There is now more noise than signal. I am a struts user and I find that this list has become a pure annoyance of late rather than being helpful like it used to be. This is not helping struts. This kind of conversation should not be on the main users list. I'm not saying the converstaion shouldn't be had, but I don't need it swamping my mailbox every day for weeks on end. If this list doesn't revert to some level of sensability soon I'll just un-subscribe and TBH I very much doubt I'll be the first or the last to go. Enough is enough. This is going no where usefull, just into the land of spam and trolling. Bart. Dakota Jack wrote: Good god, this seems to be a disease that is catching. Why don't YOU answer the question, then, Bart? It is amazing to watch someone kiss ass and be arrogant at the same time. On 3/28/06, Bart Busschots <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Larry Meadors wrote: LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only say this after a personal attack. And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind of moral equivalence out of this. ...then follow it with another... Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism and other sophistry in college. ...and another. This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world. I see two courses of action for you Jon: If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for training on the Next Big Thing. If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). Larry *round of applause for this man* Well said! Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check it out, fix it and release it as your own GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to fix it then we will all love you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC. If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ... and talk more but you are not prepared to actually do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else where you are not cluttering up all our mailboxes. I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is enough. Either shut up and do something or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm alone in that. Bart. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Guys, Struts is being used, even 1.x. People are asking questions about their problems and do's and don'ts. They (at least including me) don't want to see and hear you all acting like some pubertal teenagers fighting about whatever. Stop shouting at each other, take this discussion to the developer list and for Christ sake stop being SOOO nerdy. Statistics for the last two weeks: Irrelevant flaming at each other: 380 User questions asked and answered: 591 Think about that. Regards Karsten Krieg OMG, hopefully I've not feed the trolls... "Dakota Jack" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb am 29.03.2006 07:51:37: > Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your > points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical? > > > > On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? > > > > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance > > > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. > > > > OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have > > debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only > > say this after a personal attack. > > > > > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind > > > of moral equivalence out of this. > > > > ...then follow it with another... > > > > > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism > > > and other sophistry in college. > > > > ...and another. > > > > This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro > > world. > > > > I see two courses of action for you Jon: > > > > If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find > > something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent > > ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as > > you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for > > training on the Next Big Thing. > > > > If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something > > about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn > > smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you > > can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. > > > > But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). > > > > Larry > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > -- > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." > ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Does WebWork2/SAF2 *require* Java5? I know Stripes does, but it's not obvious anywhere on the webwork home page about it's JDK/JRE requirements. It does say it fully supports Java5 annotations, but that doesn't preclude support for older JDKs. On 3/29/06, Michael Jouravlev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good > > code. The Struts developers don't even think that. > > Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it. > Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept > preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to > this ;-) > > I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and > Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in > attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to > improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good > code"? > > Michael. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/ Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
Re: I Apologize
Mahaul Jive Velcro, You are not even close to anything that was actually discussed. If you are careful hanging around these straw men you are going to get one of those itches the toadies on this list talk about scratching. Why don't you just answer the question? Do you have an answer? Why go down this route? You cannot blame people for getting a little peeoed at people who rant at a legitimate question being "wildly" irrlevant (Craig) which encourages this sort of drivel and nothing is done by the Struts leaders to encourage an honest discussion of the failure of Struts. Why not? Would it be a bad thing to find out what needs to be changed, other than the code? On 3/28/06, Michael Jouravlev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good > > code. The Struts developers don't even think that. > > Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it. > Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept > preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to > this ;-) > > I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and > Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in > attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to > improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good > code"? > > Michael. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
Good god, this seems to be a disease that is catching. Why don't YOU answer the question, then, Bart? It is amazing to watch someone kiss ass and be arrogant at the same time. On 3/28/06, Bart Busschots <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Larry Meadors wrote: > > >LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? > > > >On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance > >>to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. > >> > >> > > > >OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have > >debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only > >say this after a personal attack. > > > > > > > >>And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind > >>of moral equivalence out of this. > >> > >> > > > >...then follow it with another... > > > > > > > >>Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism > >>and other sophistry in college. > >> > >> > > > >...and another. > > > >This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro > world. > > > >I see two courses of action for you Jon: > > > >If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find > >something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent > >ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as > >you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for > >training on the Next Big Thing. > > > >If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something > >about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn > >smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you > >can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. > > > >But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). > > > >Larry > > > > > *round of applause for this man* > > Well said! > > Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check > it out, fix it and release it as your own > GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to > fix it then we will all love > you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC. > > If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ... and > talk more but you are not prepared to actually > do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else > where you are not cluttering > up all our mailboxes. > > I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is > enough. Either shut up and do something > or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of > this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm > alone in that. > > Bart. > > >- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
A breath of fresh air. Thank you, Henri. On 3/28/06, Henri Yandell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Henri Yandell wrote: > > > Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 > > > years ago, and it still is today. > > > > > > > I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was > > deliberately, and obviously, a joke. > > I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read > the next email. > > I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if > you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate > the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :) > > However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us > nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the > conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not > to retaliate with much the same approach. > > That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy. > > Hen > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
People are supposed to stop trying to get a decent or any answer to a real question because the Struts committers and their toadies turn it into a flame war? I see Jonathan as fairly calm under the circumstances and the more he asks people to answer the question the goofier they become. But, there being goofy is hardly a reason to stop trying to get an answer. I would bet that if someone with any sense tried to answer the question things would change quick. I notice that NO ONE on the Struts PMC has tried to answer the question. Rather, they have tried to continue the ruse by fanning the flames they say they hate. This is not a fair suggestion, Jason. I think Jonathon and others, have a right to keep asking for an answer until one is forthcoming and not have to stop trying to get one because the toadies, Newton, Mitchell, etc. are excrementing. On 3/28/06, Jason King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Folks, > Perhaps its time to table all the "I apologize", "has struts reached its > limits", "are the rules for becoming a committer fair" etc threads to > bed for while. I honestly suspect most of you have reached the point > where you're yelling at each other not talking to each other, so perhaps > letting it all simmer for a month or so might be productive. > At the risk of starting a new flame-fest I don't think whatever (if > anything) ails Struts is likely to be terminal in the next 4 weeks. > Henri Yandell wrote: > > >On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an > >>incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and > >>truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to > >>really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I > would > >>have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. > Are > >>you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof > >>(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and > >>dudes stealing your lunch money?). > >> > >> > > > >Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 > >years ago, and it still is today. > > > >Hen > > > >- > >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
Dear Veto Wanted, Would you care to add anything of substance? I have decided, until you prove otherwise, that you simply are incapable of adult conversation. On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Larry Meadors wrote: > > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? > > > > Who has the time? > > As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was > the subject of my first Markov chaining program. > > Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often > couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by > the Markov chaining program. > > Neither, apparently, could people on the list. > > Dave > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
Dreary Morals, you are simply incoherent. Do you recognize at all that your points have no logic or sense to them? Don't you care if they are logical? On 3/28/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? > > On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance > > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. > > OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have > debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only > say this after a personal attack. > > > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind > > of moral equivalence out of this. > > ...then follow it with another... > > > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism > > and other sophistry in college. > > ...and another. > > This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro > world. > > I see two courses of action for you Jon: > > If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find > something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent > ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as > you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for > training on the Next Big Thing. > > If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something > about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn > smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you > can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. > > But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). > > Larry > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: I Apologize
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good > code. The Struts developers don't even think that. Struts 1.x sucks compared to WebWork 2, I think everybody got it. Actually, you are not the first who is saying this. Jason kept preaching this matra for at least two years already, we got used to this ;-) I think what would be really educational, is comparing WebWork 2 and Stripes. I think they are quite comparable. If WebWork was started in attempt to improve Struts, then Stripes was started in attempt to improve both Struts and WebWork. Are WebWork 2 and Stripes both "good code"? Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Larry Meadors wrote: LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only say this after a personal attack. And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind of moral equivalence out of this. ...then follow it with another... Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism and other sophistry in college. ...and another. This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world. I see two courses of action for you Jon: If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for training on the Next Big Thing. If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). Larry *round of applause for this man* Well said! Struts is open source, if you (Jon) think it is utter poo as is, check it out, fix it and release it as your own GPL project. If you are right in your statements that you know how to fix it then we will all love you to bits and hail you as the master of MVC. If all you can do is talk, talk, talk, talk ... and talk more but you are not prepared to actually do anything then please do all of us a favour and go talk somewhere else where you are not cluttering up all our mailboxes. I've been silent for the past few weeks of this bullshit but enough is enough. Either shut up and do something or just shut up, either way, I for one don't want to hear any more of this tripe and I VERY much doubt I'm alone in that. Bart. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Henri Yandell wrote: > > On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>Henri Yandell wrote: > >> > >>>Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 > >>>years ago, and it still is today. > >>> > >> > >>I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was > >>deliberately, and obviously, a joke. > > > > > > I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read > > the next email. > > > > I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if > > you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate > > the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :) > > > > However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us > > nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the > > conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not > > to retaliate with much the same approach. > > You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by "retaliate with > much the same approach"? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing > what I did at some point? > > When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an > email by any name but my own? I mean the same style of approach, rather than details. If someone enters the conversation with a perceived aggression, retaliating with the same aggression is going to get you nowhere other than the warmth generated by our combined cpus, network cards and the wonder of adrenalin bursts. It takes a 5-second reply to make a flamewar, it takes a 5 minute reply to avoid one. > Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need > to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you > there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth. > Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that > does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like. > > Also, to be saying: "I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad > guy" could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of > "nudge, nudge, wink, wink". I really hope that wasn't your intention. "I don't like JR's style, but I'm not going to give up my own style in reacting to the email". As a general opinion aimed at everyone: [all] Ranting, moving between private/public threads, spoofing and joking without it being very obvious [that's why we have the smilies, use 'em] are of no value to the community, it's something an individual does to neutralize the emotion and adrenalin - and it harms your own position within the community. Take time over replies, take time over the original emails (don't just do a braindump and send, that helps nobody), de-escalate rather than escalate. _Especially_ when you are talking about emotional issues like brand and community. What works for a technical argument does not work for a social argument. This is just an opinion. I've had just the one tiny patch applied to Struts, so have not contributed to this community. Take it how you want. [/all] Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Henri Yandell wrote: On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 years ago, and it still is today. I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was deliberately, and obviously, a joke. I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read the next email. I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :) However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not to retaliate with much the same approach. You started off well, Henri, but what do you mean by "retaliate with much the same approach"? Do you mean these guys doing this are doing what I did at some point? When did I post anybody's private email to the list? When did I sign an email by any name but my own? Look, Henri, I'll try to meet you a bit halfway. I probably really need to work on being more diplomatic. I could learn something from you there. But I think you should learn a greater respect for the truth. Diplomacy has to be balanced by some respect for the truth. And that does mean that sometimes you end up saying things that people don't like. Also, to be saying: "I don't like you doing this to JR, but JR is a bad guy" could lead these kinds of people to interpret this as a sort of "nudge, nudge, wink, wink". I really hope that wasn't your intention. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Henri Yandell wrote: > However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us > nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the > conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not > to retaliate with much the same approach. > > That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy. > You're absolutely right :) I'm done! Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Henri Yandell wrote: > > Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 > > years ago, and it still is today. > > > > I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was > deliberately, and obviously, a joke. I'm a dumb user, I thought Jonathan was being sarcastic until I read the next email. I don't condone Jonathan's approach, I've learnt the hard way that if you don't approach problems with diplomacy then you'll just alienate the audience. Fortunately I was able to leave that dayjob :) However, I'm also certain that escalating these conversations gets us nowhere. The only positive solution I know of is to try to point the conversation towards constructive issues and not destructive. It's not to retaliate with much the same approach. That's just a personal opinion, I can hit delete the same as the next guy. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Henri Yandell wrote: > Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 > years ago, and it still is today. > I thought they were funny 10 years ago, too, especially when it was deliberately, and obviously, a joke. Heck, I even thought they were funny 20 years ago, and back then we had to UUCP our newsfeed over 1200 and 2400 baud modems and it took longer. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: (Re: I Apologize)
Jonathan Revusky wrote: >> As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was >> the subject of my first Markov chaining program. > What Markov chaining program? What are you talking about? Uh... I'm talking about the first time I wrote a Markov chaining program, just like I said. > You're alluding to stuff that happened 3 years ago or so. Really? I thought it was longer ago than that... must have blocked it out. > Why are you inventing a bunch of nonsense about what happened then and > there and posting it here and now -- 3 years later on a separate list? Because I love listening to you spray. And it increases the accuracy of my Markov chaining program. Although your love letter to James threw it off because (I guess) you only cuss people out via private email. I'll have to re-run everything without that one to avoid inaccuracy. I gotta admit, though, it was priceless, and I still get all warm and fuzzy when I think about it. > On the other hand, Dave, really maybe you should only post when you do > have something to say. I think, by that basic standard, your last few > posts have definitely been superfluous. *rotflmao* Oh! You were serious?! Gosh, Jonathon, I really do appreciate the advice. Dave "Kettle" Newton - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Folks, Perhaps its time to table all the "I apologize", "has struts reached its limits", "are the rules for becoming a committer fair" etc threads to bed for while. I honestly suspect most of you have reached the point where you're yelling at each other not talking to each other, so perhaps letting it all simmer for a month or so might be productive. At the risk of starting a new flame-fest I don't think whatever (if anything) ails Struts is likely to be terminal in the next 4 weeks. Henri Yandell wrote: On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and dudes stealing your lunch money?). Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 years ago, and it still is today. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: (Re: I Apologize)
Members of list: troll >> /dev/null * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolls
Re: I Apologize
On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an > incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and > truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to > really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would > have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are > you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof > (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and > dudes stealing your lunch money?). Not a very impressive joke. This was a major breach of manners 10 years ago, and it still is today. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: (Re: I Apologize)
Dave Newton wrote: List members. Here I am sorry for the off-topic. Dave Newton seems to be insinuating something -- though it's not 100% clear what. Larry Meadors wrote: LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? Who has the time? As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was the subject of my first Markov chaining program. What Markov chaining program? What are you talking about? Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by the Markov chaining program. Neither, apparently, could people on the list. You're alluding to stuff that happened 3 years ago or so. It gets vague in one's memory, but you seem to be babbling. Just like in this case, everybody on that list knew which posts were written by me and which ones weren't. Why are you inventing a bunch of nonsense about what happened then and there and posting it here and now -- 3 years later on a separate list? You know, there's no guarantee that anything you write on a public forum is useful or interesting to everybody there. That is why I find ridiculous this idea that the presence of threads that some people aren't interested in is such a problem. On the other hand, Dave, really maybe you should only post when you do have something to say. I think, by that basic standard, your last few posts have definitely been superfluous. Jonathan Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Larry Meadors wrote: > LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? > Who has the time? As a side note, back when he was spraying on the Velocity list he was the subject of my first Markov chaining program. Tragically for Jonathon, but amazingly for Markov chaining, I often couldn't distinguish between his real posts and the posts generated by the Markov chaining program. Neither, apparently, could people on the list. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
LOL, Jon, do you read your own posts? On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance > to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. OK, so what you are saying here is that "these people" could have debated with you, but instead chose not to...but of course you only say this after a personal attack. > And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind > of moral equivalence out of this. ...then follow it with another... > Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism > and other sophistry in college. ...and another. This is my last post on this thread, before returning home from bizzarro world. I see two courses of action for you Jon: If you think struts is so bad that it is unfixable, then find something else. Leave us all here to wallow in our ambivalent ignorance. Then, if you are right, when and if we ever get as smart as you are and realize that struts is dead, you can charge us all for training on the Next Big Thing. If you think struts is bad, but that it is fixable, then do something about it. Check it out of SVN, fix it, and use it. If you are so darn smart, we will all be begging to use it in no time. ...and again, you can charge us all for training on that Next Big Thing. But in either case, stop being such a buttmonkey (if you can). Larry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > Don't do it again, Rick. Or else! Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Paul Benedict wrote: Sorry Jonathan this is happening to you. It's really inappropriate what was done. If somebody doesn't like you or your opinions, this isn't a way to treat another person regardless, if this is really a spoof. But you did come down hard on some people and I think, while it is no excuse to the spooffer, it may have triggered some malevolence I'd rather avoid too. Well, of course. Who wouldn't want to avoid this? What you're saying, Paul, seems incredibly unworthy. You are putting blame for this on me, the victim, because I should have known well enough to censor myself, and not express certain legitimate political opinions. That, presumably, would be the way to avoid having people start with the character assasination tactics. Do keep your eye on the ball, Paul. These people have had every chance to respond to my points via legitimate debate and they chose not to. And then they start this stuff. Yet you are trying to extract some kind of moral equivalence out of this. Well, maybe you got ruined by being exposed to too much moral relativism and other sophistry in college. ´ Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ -- Paul --- Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Larry Meadors wrote: Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today? I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at identity spoofing. Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name to them. This could get to be a serious matter. Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I mean, this is just too much. You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing. This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather than do your own work. This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it. So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to get your ahead around what is going on this application space. I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork. I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha Regards, Jonathan Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I apologize for maintaining human standards
Quinn Stone wrote: Larry Meadors, Rick Reumann, recently departed Jester Moose. Thank you. What are you thanking them for? Let's rewind a sec here. James Mitchell posted a private message to this list that I wrote several days ago when I was angry. He posted the private message in an attempt to re-initiate a flame-war that was already dead. The first two people you are thanking wrote a bunch of insulting provocative stuff in order to pour oil on the re-ignited flame war. I earlier made political comments of a nature that they don't like. Instead of engaging in legitimate debate, they want to start a character assasination. Jonathon Revusky, Dakota Jack, James Mitchell, and anyone else who has really got their knickers in a knot over these threads. C'mon. I'm tired of reading this stuff. Then don't read it any more, for crying out loud. Why do you guys start with this dishonest "I'm being victimized" stuff. And if you are, then don't write a thank you note to the people who are "victimizing" you by filling up your inbox with personal attacks. I wrote that message to James Mitchell *privately*. I didn't impose it on everybody else. You have these other guys to thank for reading nasty personal attacks on the public list. My problem is I don't know how to dev/null a thread, I guess. Or even what it means. At this point, I don't know how much of something like this is honest ignorance, and how much is some twisted sense of gamesmanship. I think maybe we should have for users, for developers, and a new for those that want to have pissing contests. Speaking of saturation... Q - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I apologize for maintaining human standards
Quinn Stone a écrit : > >I think maybe we should have for users, for developers, and a new > for those that want to have pissing contests. Speaking of saturation... > >Q > > > +1 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: I apologize for maintaining human standards
That is a great idea to have new group. All members provide your vote. Kind regards, Rakesh Bhat PrimeSourcing(tm) The Global IT Services business from i-flex - "Add Value Reduce Risk" www.iflexsolutions.com/services/services.asp i-flex solutions limited - Bangalore Phone : +91(080) 5759-6873 Email : Rakesh.Bhat@ iflexsolutions.com -Original Message- From: Quinn Stone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:30 PM To: user@struts.apache.org Subject: I apologize for maintaining human standards Importance: Low Larry Meadors, Rick Reumann, recently departed Jester Moose. Thank you. Jonathon Revusky, Dakota Jack, James Mitchell, and anyone else who has really got their knickers in a knot over these threads. C'mon. I'm tired of reading this stuff. My problem is I don't know how to dev/null a thread, I guess. Or even what it means. I think maybe we should have for users, for developers, and a new for those that want to have pissing contests. Speaking of saturation... Q - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I apologize for maintaining human standards
Larry Meadors, Rick Reumann, recently departed Jester Moose. Thank you. Jonathon Revusky, Dakota Jack, James Mitchell, and anyone else who has really got their knickers in a knot over these threads. C'mon. I'm tired of reading this stuff. My problem is I don't know how to dev/null a thread, I guess. Or even what it means. I think maybe we should have for users, for developers, and a new for those that want to have pissing contests. Speaking of saturation... Q
Re: I Apologize
Hey Jonathan, relax a bit. Come chill out with us tomorrow in #FunkyCodeMonkey on irc.darkmyst.org You can complain about struts in real time and talk up MagicMarker or whatever:) Anyone else is welcome to join as well. It's a good time and makes the day a bit more bearable when your stressed at work. On 3/28/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Brandon Goodin wrote: > > On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>Brandon Goodin wrote: > >> > >>>Okay, > >>> > >>>I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my > >>>inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just > >>>like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing > >>>you. > >> > >>I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm > >>not so good at playing net detective. Touché. > > > > > > Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it > > many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does > > that make me a creep? ;-) > > No. Probably everybody does it nowadays. Posting 4-day-old private > messages to a public list in an attempt to re-ignite a flame war would > make you a creep, though. But that was somebody else who did that. > > > > > > >>>I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a > >>>good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you. > >> > >>You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does. > > > > > > Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :) > > > > > >>>Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing. > >>> > >>>On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather > >>>harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure > >>>no harm was intended. > >> > >>Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny. > >>Did you think it was funny? > > > > > > Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D > > Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good > code. The Struts developers don't even think that. > > > > > > > > >>Jonathan Revusky > >>-- > >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > >> > >> > >>- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Rick
Re: I Apologize
Brandon Goodin wrote: On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Brandon Goodin wrote: Okay, I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing you. I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm not so good at playing net detective. Touché. Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does that make me a creep? ;-) No. Probably everybody does it nowadays. Posting 4-day-old private messages to a public list in an attempt to re-ignite a flame war would make you a creep, though. But that was somebody else who did that. I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you. You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does. Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :) Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing. On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure no harm was intended. Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny. Did you think it was funny? Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D Well, your taste is questionable. You guys think that Struts 1.x is good code. The Struts developers don't even think that. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Rick Reumann wrote: Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are you scared?" Interesting. I never asked that question openly, I don't think. I think it's something you were wondering about maybe... :-) The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and dudes stealing your lunch money?). Don't do it again, Rick. As for this "It's just an innocent joke stuff", we are not on a level of familiarity for you to take confidences like this. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Brandon Goodin wrote: > > Okay, > > > > I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my > > inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just > > like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing > > you. > > I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm > not so good at playing net detective. Touché. Not a problem. But it is fun to play net detective. I've enjoyed it many times myself. I especially enjoy googling people i just met. Does that make me a creep? ;-) > > > I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a > > good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you. > > You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does. Actually, you are right larry is not a good friend of mine :) > > Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing. > > > > On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather > > harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure > > no harm was intended. > > Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny. > Did you think it was funny? Yes, but i'm as shallow as larry and rick :D > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very > funny. Did you think it was funny? BANG thump ... that was the sound of the Court Jester shooting himself ... Dead Moose - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Brandon Goodin wrote: > > I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a > > good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you. > > You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does. Hahaha, thanks again Jon. I FEEL the love. :-D > > > Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing. > > > > On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather > > harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure > > no harm was intended. > > Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny. > Did you think it was funny? I thought the signature was HILARIOUS! C'mon - "Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia." <-- that is good stuff! > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Larry Meadors -- Some dude working at home in his sweat pants - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Brandon Goodin wrote: Okay, I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing you. I made an honest mistake. I really was sure it was him. So I guess I'm not so good at playing net detective. Touché. I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you. You may actually believe this, but probably nobody else here does. Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing. On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure no harm was intended. Well, there is the minor detail that the spoof really wasn't very funny. Did you think it was funny? Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Ouch. On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Actually that's pretty funny. That shows how weak our Tampa JUG is:) Larry > speaks one time at it, and he becomes famous. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Larry Meadors wrote: > So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic "butt-monkey" > post. > > It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course, > but you didn't do this. :-) Idiotic?! That was *FUNNY*... Deplorable!? What?! I was just trying to fit in! I optimistically thought Friday had come early... Tomorrow is Tuesday? Dang.. :-D Larry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Actually that's pretty funny. That shows how weak our Tampa JUG is:) Larry speaks one time at it, and he becomes famous. On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Larry Meadors wrote: > > Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are > > barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words "butt-monkey" are > > *nowhere* in that original email. > > Okay, I retract that. The google search "Larry Measors struts" the first > hit is www.tampajug.org > > > http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&hs=5LQ&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=%22Larry+Meadors%22+struts&spell=1 > > A ping of the IP that the spoof was posted from reveals: > > 6532215hfc194.tampabay.res.rr.com [65.32.215.194] > > So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic > "butt-monkey" post. > > It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course, > but you didn't do this. :-) > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid > > having battles of wits with unarmed opponents. > > > > Larry > > > > > > On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>Larry Meadors wrote: > >> > >>Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today? > >> > >>I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at > >>identity spoofing. > >> > >>Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org > >>systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name > >>to them. This could get to be a serious matter. > >> > >>Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 > >>days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I > >>mean, this is just too much. > >> > >>You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in > >>my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess > >>that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing. > >> > >>This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep > >>developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing > >>project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather > >>than do your own work. > >> > >>This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief. > >> > >>Jonathan Revusky > >>-- > >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > >> > >>P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized > >>that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on > >>http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one > >>of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it. > >> > >>So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no > >>sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to > >>get your ahead around what is going on this application space. > >> > >> > >>>I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior > recently. > >>> > >>>I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me > >>>lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the > girls > >>>ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up > and > >>>take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on > >>>Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in > its awesomness is WebWork. > >>> > >>>I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly > awesome, > >>>but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys > all > >>>did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I > really > >>>wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the > >>>FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll > see. > >>>All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. > >>> > >>>Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and > >>>Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha > >>> > >>>Regards, > >>> > >>>Jonathan > >>> > >>>Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. > >>> > >>> > >>>- > >>>Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > rates starting at 1¢/min. > >> > >> > >>- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Rick
Re: I Apologize
Well, true, who can blame him, I mean...I am kinda dead sexy with the "March in Montana" pallor. Larry On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME! > > > It must be that nice Montana tan that you have. > > -- > Rick - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Larry Meadors wrote: Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words "butt-monkey" are *nowhere* in that original email. Okay, I retract that. The google search "Larry Measors struts" the first hit is www.tampajug.org http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&hs=5LQ&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=%22Larry+Meadors%22+struts&spell=1 A ping of the IP that the spoof was posted from reveals: 6532215hfc194.tampabay.res.rr.com [65.32.215.194] So I though it just had to be you especially given the idiotic "butt-monkey" post. It was an honest mistake. Your behavior has been deplorable, of course, but you didn't do this. :-) Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid having battles of wits with unarmed opponents. Larry On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Larry Meadors wrote: Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today? I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at identity spoofing. Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name to them. This could get to be a serious matter. Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I mean, this is just too much. You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing. This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather than do your own work. This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it. So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to get your ahead around what is going on this application space. I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork. I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha Regards, Jonathan Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
... and as I said in the other thread ... you *lucky bast%rds!*, we floor level developers can't get away with such behavoiur. you must have *such* income security! do you sell Amway on the side or something? Larry Meadors wrote: >Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME! > >Larry > >PS: > >To add insult to injury, you forgot the "a" there - "It was supposed >to be *a* joke"...so make that "Way to go Rick, you illiterate >butt-monkey". > > >On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an >>incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and >>truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to >>really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would >>have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are >>you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof >>(sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and >>dudes stealing your lunch money?). >> >>On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>>In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this. >>> >>> >>> - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME! It must be that nice Montana tan that you have. -- Rick
Re: I Apologize
Way to go Rick, you butt-monkey - Jonathan jumped all over ME! Larry PS: To add insult to injury, you forgot the "a" there - "It was supposed to be *a* joke"...so make that "Way to go Rick, you illiterate butt-monkey". On 3/27/06, Rick Reumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an > incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and > truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to > really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would > have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are > you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof > (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and > dudes stealing your lunch money?). > > On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this. > > > > jonathan revusky wrote: > > > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior > > recently. > > > > > > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me > > > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the > > girls > > > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up > > and > > > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on > > > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in > > its awesomness is WebWork. > > > > > > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, > > > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys > > all > > > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I > > really > > > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the > > > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll > > see. > > > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. > > > > > > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and > > > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jonathan > > > > > > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. > > > > > > > > > - > > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > > rates starting at 1¢/min. > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > -- > Rick > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Lighten up. I wrote it. It was supposed to be joke to bring levity to an incredibly annoying situation. If I wrote actually trying to be you and truly impersonate you, that would be a different matter. If I wanted to really spoof being you I wouldn't have made it such an obvious joke. I would have instead just posted something like "Why don't you guys debate me. Are you scared?" The yahoo email was pretty apparent that it was a spoof (sheesh, unless you really do have that much trouble with the ladies and dudes stealing your lunch money?). On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this. > > jonathan revusky wrote: > > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior > recently. > > > > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me > > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the > girls > > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up > and > > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on > > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in > its awesomness is WebWork. > > > > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, > > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys > all > > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I > really > > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the > > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll > see. > > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. > > > > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and > > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan > > > > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. > > > > > > - > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great > rates starting at 1¢/min. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Rick
Re: I Apologize
Haha, thanks for the insults and vote of no confidence, but you are barking up the wrong tree...I mean, shoot, the words "butt-monkey" are *nowhere* in that original email. BTW, I do not live in Florida, and as a point of honor try to avoid having battles of wits with unarmed opponents. Larry On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Larry Meadors wrote: > > Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today? > > I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at > identity spoofing. > > Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org > systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name > to them. This could get to be a serious matter. > > Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 > days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I > mean, this is just too much. > > You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in > my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess > that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing. > > This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep > developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing > project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather > than do your own work. > > This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief. > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized > that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on > http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one > of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it. > > So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no > sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to > get your ahead around what is going on this application space. > > > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. > > > > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me > > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls > > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and > > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on > > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its > > awesomness is WebWork. > > > > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, > > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all > > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really > > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the > > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. > > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. > > > > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and > > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan > > > > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. > > > > > > - > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates > > starting at 1¢/min. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Okay, I am not a regular reader of the struts mail that roles across my inbox. But, this juicy tidbit caught my attention. Jonathan, I'd just like to say that you took a bold step accusing someone of spoofing you. I'd also like to point out that you failed miserably. Larry is a good friend of mine and he would have no problem debating with you. Heck, he doesn't even live in Tampa. Feel free to continue guessing. On a related note... Don't take this too serious. This is rather harmless humor. Laugh at yourself a little and enjoy the fun. I'm sure no harm was intended. Cheers, Brandon P.S. It wasn't me either. ;) On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Larry Meadors wrote: > > Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today? > > I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at > identity spoofing. > > Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org > systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name > to them. This could get to be a serious matter. > > Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 > days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I > mean, this is just too much. > > You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in > my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess > that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing. > > This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep > developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing > project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather > than do your own work. > > This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief. > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized > that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on > http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one > of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it. > > So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no > sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to > get your ahead around what is going on this application space. > > > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. > > > > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me > > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls > > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and > > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on > > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its > > awesomness is WebWork. > > > > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, > > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all > > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really > > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the > > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. > > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. > > > > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and > > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan > > > > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. > > > > > > - > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates > > starting at 1¢/min. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Sorry Jonathan this is happening to you. It's really inappropriate what was done. If somebody doesn't like you or your opinions, this isn't a way to treat another person regardless, if this is really a spoof. But you did come down hard on some people and I think, while it is no excuse to the spooffer, it may have triggered some malevolence I'd rather avoid too. -- Paul --- Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Larry Meadors wrote: > > Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today? > > I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at > identity spoofing. > > Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org > systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name > to them. This could get to be a serious matter. > > Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 > days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I > mean, this is just too much. > > You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in > my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess > that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing. > > This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep > developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing > project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather > than do your own work. > > This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief. > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized > that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on > http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one > of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it. > > So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no > sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to > get your ahead around what is going on this application space. > > > I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. > > > > I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me > > lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the > > girls > > ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and > > take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on > > Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its > > awesomness is > WebWork. > > > > I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, > > but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all > > did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really > > wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the > > FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. > > All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. > > > > Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and > > Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan > > > > Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. > > > > > > - > > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates > > starting at > 1¢/min. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
Larry Meadors wrote: Hi, Larry. How is the weather in Tampa Bay, today? I don't know exactly where your talents lie, but you're not very good at identity spoofing. Don't do this any more. This has got to be abuse of the apache.org systems (and all the ones in between) writing posts and signing my name to them. This could get to be a serious matter. Also, this business of James Mitchell posting a private message from 4 days ago in order to re-ignite a flame war that was already over -- I mean, this is just too much. You know, I have debated fair and square and made legitimate points in my posts. I do not recall you ever trying to debate with me. I guess that's too hard to do. It's easier to do this kind of thing. This is a recurring theme here. It's really like it's too hard to keep developing your own code base. It's much easier to get a competing project to give you their code and for that to be called Struts rather than do your own work. This whole community is such a travesty, it's beyond belief. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ P.S. Larry, in your spoof below, it's like you haven't even yet realized that I am not a Webwork guy. Look on http://freemarker.org/poweredBy.html and you'll see. Webwork is just one of many frameworks that uses FreeMarker for the view. That's it. So writing a spoof in which I sing the praises of Webwork makes no sense. You should devote some energy instead of doing this silliness to get your ahead around what is going on this application space. I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork. I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha Regards, Jonathan Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: I Apologize
In case people don't realize this immediately, I didn't write this. jonathan revusky wrote: I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork. I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha Regards, Jonathan Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I Apologize
I just wanted to apologize to everyone for my arrogant behavior recently. I do understand that Struts isn't so bad. Times have been tough for me lately and I think I acted out on this list because of it. None of the girls ever spoke to me in high school and the jocks would always beat me up and take my lunch money. But I'm ok now because I'm the lead developer on Freemarker! And Freemarker is awesome!! The only thing close to it in its awesomness is WebWork. I know Struts is really made of poo poo and I'm just incredibly awesome, but I don't want you to all take it so personal and I'm sorry you guys all did. I'm only after honest answers - seriously - really that's all I really wanted. I know WebWork is my god and some day when I'm king of the FreeMarkeropia universe the girls will give me a second chance. You'll see. All of you!! Even Mr Evans the gym teacher will see that I'm awesome. Oh and just one more thing, don't forget: "WebWork rules! and Struts users Drool!!" Ha Ha Regards, Jonathan Master of Freemarker and soon to be Ruler of FreeMarkeropia. - Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.