On Sep 11, 2009, at 11:44 AM Sep 11, Steve at Verizon wrote:
t.piwowar wrote:
Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check?
Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is
here: http://zfacts.com/metaPage/lib/National-Debt-GDP-L.gif
This was the Bush party
On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:15 AM Sep 11, mike wrote:
Socialism is a word like any other, a construct of humans and
governments.
Neither good nor bad, Tom is being mighty ignorant here since both
the nazi
and soviets called themselves and acted in great part in a
socialistic way.
Another demonst
I used to fly mostly out of Seattle and mainly to places on the west
coast. However, I have been to Florida and Hawaii quite a few times
over the past 20 or so years. I haven't noticed prices changing that
drastically. With the exception of flying first class to Hawaii this
last time. No 6
This makes no sense to me. Control is control, regardless of who's
doing it. So it's ok for your neighbor to tell you what you can or
can't do, but not for that sap from Maine directing what you can or
can't do?
Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net
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On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy beyond its
means.
Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check? Properly you
look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here:
http://zfacts.c
It's all ok, Geithner and O are asking congress to raise the debt ceiling to
12t.
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
> t.piwowar wrote:
>
>> On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
>>
>>> An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy
>>>
Actually, I am a liberal concerning airline deregulation. It opened
inexpensive air travel to the masses. Competition brought us Peoples
Express (remember them?) and then SW and Jet Blue. Granted, flying in
coach today is much like taking the bus as far as amenities. I remember
flying before 19
t.piwowar wrote:
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy
beyond its means.
Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check?
Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here:
I was replying to the complaints about how horrible flying was today and
how much better it was when it used to be federally regulated. I was
just pointing out who did the deregulation.
t.piwowar wrote:
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
If you are referring to the deregulat
Then the socialists should pick a better word. I'm speaking in broader
terms keeping in mind the people the big O has surrounded himself with over
his lifetime. I'm also talking about keeping the federal government from
gaining even more control, keep these things within the states where it
belon
> *. . . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom.
> Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object
> worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to
> work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say.
>
Socialism is a word like any other, a construct of humans and governments.
Neither good nor bad, Tom is being mighty ignorant here since both the nazi
and soviets called themselves and acted in great part in a socialistic way.
Then of course you can discuss the merits of the pseudo socialism of the
And people are just figuring this out. You'd figure not being able to
make a house payment on a house they couldn't afford in the first
place would have been a big clue.
Jeff Miles
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On S
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:59 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
This is wrong. Competition only needs a winner and looser at the
end of the game. However during it both sides should stay
competitive. And yes, I'll worry, along with you, when the game is
over.
Eventually the Sun will go super nova and the
That was kind of my point. Not really happy about the thought of
paying for a house that burned to the ground 5 years earlier. But the
option of not buying insurance should be there. That's tort reform for
you. Hard to sue an insurance company if you never paid for it in the
first place. T
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:56 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy
beyond its means.
Nonesense. What are you comparing that number to? Your pay check?
Properly you look at it as percent of GDP. A proper analysis is here: http://zfacts.c
I don't question who did it. While I sound like a liberal most of the
time, I blame the democrats as much as the conservatives most of the
time. Stupid ideas see no political bias.
Jeff Miles
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This is wrong. Competition only needs a winner and looser at the end
of the game. However during it both sides should stay competitive. And
yes, I'll worry, along with you, when the game is over.
Jeff Miles
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On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry,
the wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress.
See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.
Are we talking policy or are you starting a Jimmy Carter fan cl
Hello kettle?
I love that line!
cb
_
On Sep 11, 2009, at 1:26, "t.piwowar" wrote:
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:
For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the
United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard.
Given the cho
On Sep 11, 2009, at 12:44 AM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the
implied (turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could
borrow at rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how
they made those gobs of money (before t
On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:26 PM, Jeff Morris wrote:
For you to say that the health care in Cuba is better than the
United States may be the dumbest statement I have ever heard.
Given the choice...you mean to tell me that you would fly to Cuba to
have open heart surgery instead of having it done by
On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:28 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
It is called universal or one payer healthcare.
Nothing socialistic about it.
Nope. It is socialism through and through. It is the right thing to do.
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 6:23 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
As for letting the free market work for insurance companies, I'm all
for that. Let's stop requiring insurance for damn near everything.
Let's make it an option. Do you want to buy a house? You don't have
to buy fire insurance. You want to drive a
On Sep 9, 2009, at 5:59 PM, mike wrote:
I heard someone saying on the radio or television, I don't recall
where,
that we should require when any new law goes on the books they
should have
to remove one also.
Probably Fox. Most of the utterly stupid commentary comes from there.
Only an idi
On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:45 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
Every year we work longer and longer to pay the guvmint our tax
burden and
every year we become less free as more laws are passed that restrict
our
freedom just a little bit more than last year.
False. What planet do you live on?
On Sep 9, 2009, at 5:16 PM, Jeff Miles wrote:
I'm an ignorant ass because I don't agree with you and don't see why
you keep refusing to understand the word "option"?
Same thing happens with these folks when the topic is computers. They
simply refuse to acknowledge key facts and will argue ro
Profit, no, but break even has a certain appeal.
An 11.4 Trillion National Debt represents government living wayy
beyond its means.
t.piwowar wrote:
On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
How about if they break even? That would be a hoot.
What does that mean? You could try to
No one could compete with Freddy and Fanny because they had the implied
(turns out real) backing of the US Treasury and they could borrow at
rates lower than other financial institutions. That's how they made
those gobs of money (before the fun ran out). And Franklin Raines made
his 90 mil duri
If you are referring to the deregulation of the airline industry, the
wingnuts who did it were Jimmy Carter and the Democratic Congress.
See the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act.
t.piwowar wrote:
On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years a
On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:33 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:
By expanding Medicare and returning to private nonprofits instead of
taking customers' premiums for shareholders, the costs of both
Medicare and private health care will go down, as it has in many
other countries with similar plans. Medicare costs
On Sep 9, 2009, at 7:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
How about if they break even? That would be a hoot.
What does that mean? You could try to make sense from time to time.
That would really be a hoot.
"Profit" and "break even" are not useful concepts for thinking about
how governments work. A
On Sep 9, 2009, at 9:10 AM, Jordan wrote:
_Oh, and by the way, these wingers who are against government
involvement in health care because it's not in the constitution? I
guess they are against Medicare too. Good luck with that.
I recall Trent Lott lecturing us while people were dying from t
On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:28 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as
affordable as it is today.
Very true,except that today we have more information about fares.
You only get less for your $ today.
Today they can abuse their customers with impunit
On Sep 6, 2009, at 2:04 PM, mike wrote:
Brilliant! Socialism is great till you run out of everyone elses
money.
But one doesn't. That is just a bogeyman invented by wing nuts who are
bad at math.
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On Sep 9, 2009, at 2:19 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
What the hell came of creating the database/intranet of health
care? Who was against it? What happened to the waste cutting? Where
did it go? The company still exists, so.?
People were rightly nervous over such an operation being run by M$.
On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:15 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too.
"Socialism" is simply "opposition to the untrammeled workings of the
economic market." Most of the world embraces "socialism." "Socialism"
is a good and virtuous thing. Anyone
On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
You can't "compete" with the govt. "Choice" with the state is a
bug, not a feature.
This has no basis in fact. You just keep chanting that wingnut mantra.
Keep your eyes shut real tight while you do.
*
On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
The only thing I'm not seeing here is a point.
Precisely the point. You don't see much through your ideological haze
and trying to provoke thought is quite impossible.
*
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 18:35:59 -0500, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>Did you ever read on how he got his transplant?
>
>It is an interesting story and shows you the disparity we have at
>present in the Medical Insurance system.
>
>At 06:27 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
>
>>Sa-weet! Anybody else care to dro
Did you ever read on how he got his transplant?
It is an interesting story and shows you the disparity we have at
present in the Medical Insurance system.
Stewart
At 06:27 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic,
like Steve Job's health? O
On Wed, 9 Sep 2009 09:57:52 -0400, Jeff Wright wrote:
>I'm out of this discussion at this point. It has devolved into the usual
>partisan nonsense.
Sa-weet! Anybody else care to drop it so's we can get more on topic,
like Steve Job's health? Oh wait . . .
--
R:\katan
I heard someone saying on the radio or television, I don't recall where,
that we should require when any new law goes on the books they should have
to remove one also.
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 2:29 PM, Jeff Miles wrote:
>Now here I totally agree with you. But we, the government, is mostly
So we have things in place that could lower all our costs but we
aren't using them. To me this sounds like a very good reason for
government/us to get involved.
Jeff Miles
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On Sep 9, 200
Now here I totally agree with you. But we, the government, is mostly
the problem. We make new laws on knee jerk reactions. We rarely take
old laws off the books. Corporations constantly want more and more for
their work force $, and we seem to feel it's our responsibility to
give it to the
I'm an ignorant ass because I don't agree with you and don't see why
you keep refusing to understand the word "option"? If that's the case
I guess I'm an ignorant ass most of the time. It's worked for me for
47 years, why quit now?
Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net
Join my Mafia
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That would be nice, but far from a requirement. We buy goods and
services because we want them. How many things do you own that
actually make you money? And be honest here. Do most things you own
supply you with a check at the end of the month you can take to the
bank? I realize anything c
When I worked for the Vet Company as hardware support, we were often
chided for what we charged for support and equipment by those who had
no support contracts.
It was explained to us this way. You are giving them a
service., They have no compunction charging you for a service when
you go i
Good for her.
I applaud professionals like that and if I were close I would use her.
Stewart
At 12:23 PM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
My country doctor runs her practice like a clinic. When I first
started going there many years ago, she charged $5 for those without
insurance. I think it's $35 or $4
One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did not.
Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with the latest
technology.
With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one clinic
(Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their records
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:33 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:
> You have the corporate talking points well-memorized.
>
> Medicare has an overhead of 2-4%. For-profit companies have overhead of
> 15-30% or more with the top crooks being paid huge salaries/bonuses with the
> money made from not paying their cus
Actually, you will find the banks that survived were the ones who were more
diversified in their holdings. The one that went tits up were the old
investment houses that only recently started banking businesses.
> And why does the federal government have Medicaid administered by the
> states? Yo
> As one with family from Cuba and some friends remaining, I can assure
> you that Jeff W. has no idea about Cuba, considering his comments. It's
> their health care insurance system and outcomes that are better than
> ours, not the high tech gadgets and expensive doctors. The Cuban
> government,
> IT IS NEITHER!
>
> It is called universal or one payer healthcare.
>
> Nothing socialistic about it.
Then that word does not mean what you think it means.
I'm out of this discussion at this point. It has devolved into the usual
partisan nonsense.
If leftists have any sense, they'll read and
IT IS NEITHER!
It is called universal or one payer healthcare.
Nothing socialistic about it.
Stewart
At 01:42 AM 9/9/2009, you wrote:
Ok, how about socialized health care if we call it the Republican
Healthcare Initiative?
Jeff Miles
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One side of it is that Doctors did not need to purchase it and did not.
Professionals are notorious (I mean Doctors etc.) in keeping up with
the latest technology.
With all the doctors I get to see with my wife We have only seen one
clinic (Othopods) who used tablets and kept all their record
t.piwowar wrote:
On Sep 6, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
That food, which uses a mixed but largely free market system, is so
cheap
and plentiful that even the poor can easily afford it, is lost on the
socialized medicine proponents.
Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? Th
> We ain't govmuent then whats be we? I don't work in a labor camp.
I'm
> not forced into an army. Hell I'm not even made to feed the chickens.
> Damn, how did this govment I'm not a part of get so out of control?
>
> By the way, next time you feel we aren't all the government, lets
se
> Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of "option" won't
flow
> through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have
> to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance.
> Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the
> wall a few more
> Once again I have to point out government programs aren't created
and
> meant to make a profit.
Ya think?
How about if they break even? That would be a hoot.
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Ok, how about socialized health care if we call it the Republican
Healthcare Initiative?
Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 10:15 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
I find it funny that when "lib
Where are you getting this nonsense? What part of "option" won't flow
through your head? I'd recommend using a hammer, but then you'd have
to use your insurance. That is if you have insurance.
Option means optional. Wham, wham, wham. Bang your head against the
wall a few more times and it m
You obviously don't pay any attention. Flying 20 years ago was as
affordable as it is today. You only get less for your $ today. I
search flight prices on a weekly, if not daily schedule. Prices go up
and down depending on when you search. But they haven't changed much
in the last 20 years
Yes and no. Why are the both on the stock exchange as two separate
entities? But that's not what I really asked. What the hell came of
creating the database/intranet of health care? Who was against it?
What happened to the waste cutting? Where did it go? The company still
exists, so.?
And that's why you're against health care reform and/or the public
option, you have the blinders on?
Jeff Miles
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On Sep 8, 2009, at 9:41 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
If you encounter someone wh
We ain't govmuent then whats be we? I don't work in a labor camp. I'm
not forced into an army. Hell I'm not even made to feed the chickens.
Damn, how did this govment I'm not a part of get so out of control?
By the way, next time you feel we aren't all the government, lets see
what happen
Once again I have to point out government programs aren't created and
meant to make a profit. Can you imagine the bitching if they actually
did? Where's the money going? Who's pockets are being lined? The
complaining never stops. It's one reason I stopped being a
professional photographer
> I find it funny that when "liberals" want change its called
socialism
> or pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for
> change it's fanatical renegade John Wynism (I just made that up).
Nah, it's pretty much socialism when the Stupid Party does it too.
> I don'
> Whjy are you afraid of a choice between the private insurers and a government
> program? I said: choice.
Private insurers can't print money or tax their customers when times get tight.
You can't "compete" with the govt. "Choice" with the state is a bug, not a
feature.
If the issue are person
What was that movie? Gattica? It focused on the DNA thing mostly, but
the people's complacency was also shown. Just do what you're told.
I find it funny that when "liberals" want change its called socialism
or pandering to people with hands out. While when neocons call for
change it's fana
> Hmmm, coach healthcare and then first class healthcare if I'm
willing
> to pay for it. What a concept.
Sounds like you're describing the UK's DHS or Canada's Medicare to a T.
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I agree with the idea that if you love it so much why don't you move
there is a BS argument. How about, if it works, lets bring it here? We
import just about everything else, why not healthcare ideas? Oh, no
money in it. Can we export our insurance companies to China with the
proviso they
> This is a terrible comparison. But if you must, the airline travel
> industry has also gone to hell. I don't know how much you fly, but
> it's miserable today as compared to 20 years ago
I fly a couple of times a year. It's OK.
What I do know is that it's no longer only a tool for the bu
I'm amazed that those against health care options don't see the
insurance companies as death panels. Because Sarah says it they're
quick to jump on the idea when it comes to a federal health option,
but seeing their own insurance companies as doing the same? Hand over
the head motion here.
> She said "we", she didn't say you. We aren't including you. So don't
> bother voting next election. It won't be counted. You're not included.
> Oh, we'll still be taking SS out of your paycheck. Probably L&I as
> well, but you aren't part of our government. Wow, how freeing that
> must feel
On Sep 9, 2009, at 12:14 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark
started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of
putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste.
Whatever happened with that?
Healtheon merged w
> If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you are
> not being nice.
> If you encounter someone who is homeless and you don't shelter them
> you are not being nice.
> If you encounter someone who is bleeding to death and you don't help
> them you are a criminal.
>
> Tell us a
> You mean like when we got rid of the laws that required local banking?
> That worked very well. Didn't it?
>
> If you look for banks that did not get caught in the sub-prime fiasco
> you will find that these were banks run by local bankers who knew who
> and what was getting the loan. You will a
> Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another
> issue that Americans will have to face up to. Corporate farmers are
> polluting our world and serving up food from diseased animals. Our
> food is so strongly laced with antibiotics that they are breeding new
> strains of drug-r
> As one with family from Cuba and some friends remaining, I can assure
> you that Jeff W. has no idea about Cuba, considering his comments. It's
> their health care insurance system and outcomes that are better than
> ours, not the high tech gadgets and expensive doctors. The Cuban
> government, t
I did find it interesting someone would equate violence with either
being liberal or conservative. I personally know some pretty passive
conservatives and also some pretty violent liberals. I don't think how
you feel about Sarah Palin and her views makes you one or the other. I
won't go an
> > Sounds like paradise. Why aren't you living there?
>
> I was just waiting for the old "love it or leave it" bullshit to
> start. Why can't an intelligent and respectful conversation take
> place without descending into the pit of old worn out saws such as
> that?
Really? You saw love or
Ok, this is on both topics, health care and computers. Jim Clark
started Healtheon. MS bought it. It was supposed to be a system of
putting healthcare history of patients online to cut out waste.
Whatever happened with that?
Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net
Join my Mafia
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On Sep 7, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
And the ones who will choose choice will be the employers, dumping
their health care, and then you, the employee, will have only one
choice, the public option. That is what is happening in
Massachusetts; the employers would rather pay the
On Sep 7, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Jordan wrote:
http://brightcove.newscientist.com/services/player/bcpid2227271001?bctid=30583310001
Thank you. Very well thought out and rational.
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On Sep 7, 2009, at 8:38 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:
But liberals proclaim that you should never defend yourself against
an attacker. You should run away and call the police. Why did this
individual not follow the liberal doctrine?
When _you_ are being attacked, you all of a sudden become a
cons
On Sep 6, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
That food, which uses a mixed but largely free market system, is so
cheap
and plentiful that even the poor can easily afford it, is lost on the
socialized medicine proponents.
Did you see the Time cover story about cheap food? This is another
i
On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:34 PM, mike wrote:
The UK and Canada are moving away from socialized medicine, not
towards it.
While this is definitely off topic, it is still very useful in the
general context of the List's discussions about computers and
technology. It gets us away from tainted topi
On Sep 6, 2009, at 4:33 PM, mike wrote:
You don't seem to have a full grasp on capitalism. If your letters
didn't
arrive you'd switch carriers and get them to arrive. It's called
Fedex and
UPS and DHL etc. Would one pizza shop across the nation be good?
There was a time when you had to s
On Sep 6, 2009, at 3:22 PM, Jeff Wright wrote:
We are being told that health care is a "right." I disagree.
Health care
is paramount, no doubt, but it is no more a right than food or a
place to
live.
If you encounter someone who is hungry and you don't feed them you are
not being nice.
.
Live life to the fullest. It goes lasts such a short time...
Marcio
-Original Message-
>From: Jeff Miles
>Sent: Sep 8, 2009 8:59 AM
>To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
>Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
>
>? where you been Marcio? I Thought that what I
Not only do you have to pay but their scales in many cases are not
regulated. (Paid a $50 penalty on a flight recently for an
overweight bag. One between the two of us. )
Read a story about an airport where they went through and calibrated
the scales. Many were off by a few pounds.
Stewar
On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:54 AM, Jeff Wright wrote:
Rev, now you miss his point. If you allow companies to compete over
state
lines, removing their captive audience, you won't *need* mandates.
That's
what competition is best at providing: choice.
You mean like when we got rid of the laws that
te:
Share you views and perceptions Jeff.
Marcio
-Original Message-
From: Jeff Miles
Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
Sorry to say, but you sound like the guy who sits on his porch and
yells at the k
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On Sep 7, 2009, at 7:31 PM, Marcio wrote:
Share you views and perceptions Jeff.
Marcio
-Original Message-
From: Jeff Miles
Sent: Sep 7, 2009 7:39 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [C
Where do you come up with these figures? Have they been fed to you or
are they just off the top of your head?
You did get to the meat of the problem however. We might have great
medical care here in us. But getting it and being able to have access
to it is a totally different story. And tha
Just a thought, but if we stopped calling it "the US" and just called
it "us" maybe people would remember. Then maybe healthcare for "us"
might sound more attractive.
Jeff Miles
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On Sep
M
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
This is one subspecialty that is also elective surgery. Now say
the
same thing about cardiac stints, hernia surgery etc.
Yes, I understand that. It's one of the better analogs for
demonstrating
that the med
ust be socialized in order
to work.
Marcio
-Original Message-
From: Jeff Wright
Sent: Sep 7, 2009 3:50 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Intensive Care Unit...
For what it is worth, Cuba has one of the best, if not the overall
best health care system in t
The title says what? 89 people were polled and those who were
interested in whoever was doing the polling were against healthcare?
Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net
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On Sep 7, 2009, at 1:38 PM, mike wrote:
Due
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