Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Yuri Astrakhan]

You do have a valid point about getting the local community exposure to
Wikidata.  But I see no contradiction between that and my proposal, because
I think it would be very easy to come up with countless Wikipedia/Wikidata
cleanup tasks that require human attention. There is always be plenty of
work.  After my program runs, there will be thousands of items that could
not be resolved as easily. For example, there will be tons of cases when
wikipedia and wikidata point to different entities. Some of them are legit
- e.g. island (wikipedia) vs administrative area (wikidata).   Redirect
resolution would not introduce communities to wikidata, but rather teach
community how to mindlessly click "accept", and I would much rather avoid
that - as this might result in bigger problems when a real decision needs
to be made.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 1:04 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> By using Osmose, it would be possible to involve the local
> communities. People would learn about Wikidata, and might start adding
> them to other objects as well. They might even start contributing to
> Wikidata as well.
> By just running your program, you would only fix a small number of
> entries and nobody would know, nobody would bother about them.
>
> I have the feeling that a program can fix some errors in a short
> period, but doesn't bring anything else. Allowing people to fix
> trivial problems, allow them to get familiar with the data, they will
> take some form of ownership and maintain the data and that is more
> beneficial in the long term than an automated quick fix now.
>
> m.
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
> > According to Martijn (of MapRoulette fame), there is no way a challenge
> can
> > link to object IDs. MapRoulette can only highlight location. Nor can I
> > provide a proposed fix, which means someone would have to manually find
> the
> > broken object, navigate to Wikipedia, copy/paste the title, and save the
> > object.  I guesstimate 1 minute per object on average... that's nearly
> 700
> > hours of community time - a huge waste of human brain power that could be
> > spent on a much more challenging and less automatable tasks.
> >
> > Osmose might be a good alternative, and might even lower the total
> number of
> > hours required, but still - would that significantly benefit the project?
> > These tags are just a tiny arbitrary subset of one million
> wikipedia-tagged
> > objects.  Verifying just them by hand seems like a waste of human
> > intelligence. Instead, we can run queries to produce knowingly bad
> objects
> > and let community fix those. I hope we can let machines do mindless
> tasks,
> > and let humans do decision making.  This would improve contributors
> morale,
> > instead of making them feel like robots :)
> >
> > Clarifying: the OSM objects already point to those pages via redirect.
> The
> > redirect information is only stored in Wikipedia.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Marc Gemis 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> or via Osmose ?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis 
> wrote:
> >> > what about a Maproulette task ?
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan
> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia
> tag
> >> >> does
> >> >> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects,
> >> >> whose
> >> >> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
> >> >> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we
> >> >> should fix
> >> >> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
> >> >> time,
> >> >> when it can be semi-automated.
> >> >>
> >> >> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would
> change
> >> >> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the
> redirect.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thoughts?
> >> >>
> >> >> ___
> >> >> talk mailing list
> >> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >> >>
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.

[Andreas Lattmann]

>Su JOSM con il plugin wikipedia c'è la funzione "fetch wikidata id".
>Manualmente basta andare sulla voce wikipedia e cliccare a sinistra su
>"elemento wikidata".

Grazie a Damjan per la domanda e a Stefano per la risposta, io ho sempre fatto 
a mano... 
Grazie! mi sarà molto utile.
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Re: [Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.

[Andreas Lattmann]

>Ciao,
>basta vedere cosa fanno e chi c'è dietro 

Ho visto che era un edit automatico per inserire i wikidata, non sapevo se 
c'era stata una discussione in merito e mi sarebbe piaciuto sapere dove era 
stata fatta (per imparare cose nuove)

>Sono contributi del mitico Yuri Astrakhan

Quando ho visto che era lui mi sono messo in ginocchio davanti al pc. 

Grazie Alessandro Ale_Zena_I.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

By using Osmose, it would be possible to involve the local
communities. People would learn about Wikidata, and might start adding
them to other objects as well. They might even start contributing to
Wikidata as well.
By just running your program, you would only fix a small number of
entries and nobody would know, nobody would bother about them.

I have the feeling that a program can fix some errors in a short
period, but doesn't bring anything else. Allowing people to fix
trivial problems, allow them to get familiar with the data, they will
take some form of ownership and maintain the data and that is more
beneficial in the long term than an automated quick fix now.

m.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> According to Martijn (of MapRoulette fame), there is no way a challenge can
> link to object IDs. MapRoulette can only highlight location. Nor can I
> provide a proposed fix, which means someone would have to manually find the
> broken object, navigate to Wikipedia, copy/paste the title, and save the
> object.  I guesstimate 1 minute per object on average... that's nearly 700
> hours of community time - a huge waste of human brain power that could be
> spent on a much more challenging and less automatable tasks.
>
> Osmose might be a good alternative, and might even lower the total number of
> hours required, but still - would that significantly benefit the project?
> These tags are just a tiny arbitrary subset of one million wikipedia-tagged
> objects.  Verifying just them by hand seems like a waste of human
> intelligence. Instead, we can run queries to produce knowingly bad objects
> and let community fix those. I hope we can let machines do mindless tasks,
> and let humans do decision making.  This would improve contributors morale,
> instead of making them feel like robots :)
>
> Clarifying: the OSM objects already point to those pages via redirect. The
> redirect information is only stored in Wikipedia.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>>
>> or via Osmose ?
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>> > what about a Maproulette task ?
>> >
>> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan
>> >  wrote:
>> >> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag
>> >> does
>> >> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects,
>> >> whose
>> >> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
>> >> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we
>> >> should fix
>> >> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
>> >> time,
>> >> when it can be semi-automated.
>> >>
>> >> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
>> >> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>> >>
>> >> Thoughts?
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> talk mailing list
>> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >>
>
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Marc, thanks.  I was under the assumption that talk is the global community
- as it is the most generic in the list, unlike talk-us and
talk-us-newyork. Does it meany that any global proposal would require
talking to hundreds of communities independently, making it impossible to
coordinate, because comments in one community would not be visible to other
communities? Is there any kind of ambassadorial program?  Also, does it
mean that talk-us doesn't decide anything because there is a
talk-us-newyork?

In this specific case, adding wikidata seemed like a long overdue task,
something that is already happening automatically by the unmonitored iD
feature.

Btw, I looked at the descriptions at
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:14 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> > moving it here.  I believe I acted in good faith according to the
> mechanical
> > edit policy - discussed with the community, and proceeded.
>
> I believe the mechanical edit polity demands that you discuss with the
> *local* community. That means if your edit modifies items in e.g.
> Mexico, Belgium and Japan, you have to discuss your edit with the
> communities in Mexico, Belgium and Japan. This might also mean that
> you have to discuss it via Telegram, Facebook, email, IRC, etc.
> depending on where that local community is.
>
> The talk mailing list is not sufficient.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 26.09.17 01:30, John F. Eldredge wrote:


People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using 
the Latin language.


Certainly, the Latin alphabet is more known as it is used in many modern 
languages. But the Latin language does exist, and its popularity is 
growing [1].


So my suggestion was fairly simple, - since the secondary labels in 
Latin alphabet could be only in one language on a non-vector map, why 
not use the Latin language itself. The geographical names in Latin 
language are readily available, since maps in past centuries were often 
produced in Latin language [2], so it is possible just to copy at least 
some names from the historical maps, which should be in the public 
domain by now.


Keeping names only in local alphabets, as it is now, or using English, 
French, German, or Esperanto languages, for secondary labels, are also 
not ideal solutions for numerous reasons.



[1] "The Growing Popularity of Latin and Greek", June 8, 2017

http://www.greatheartsamerica.org/amor-vincit-omnia-growing-popularity-latin-greek/ 



The Wall Street Journal, "Carpe Diem: U.S. Students Revive Latin and 
Greek", June 7, 2017


https://www.wsj.com/articles/veni-vidi-vici-u-s-students-revive-latin-and-greek-1496851612


[2] 
https://libweb5.princeton.edu/visual_materials/maps/websites/africa/maps-continent/1644%20blaeu.jpg


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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Yuri Astrakhan]

According to Martijn (of MapRoulette fame), there is no way a challenge can
link to object IDs. MapRoulette can only highlight location. Nor can I
provide a proposed fix, which means someone would have to manually find the
broken object, navigate to Wikipedia, copy/paste the title, and save the
object.  I guesstimate 1 minute per object on average... that's nearly 700
hours of community time - a huge waste of human brain power that could be
spent on a much more challenging and less automatable tasks.

Osmose might be a good alternative, and might even lower the total number
of hours required, but still - would that significantly benefit the
project?  These tags are just a tiny arbitrary subset of one million
wikipedia-tagged objects.  Verifying just them by hand seems like a waste
of human intelligence. Instead, we can run queries to produce knowingly bad
objects and let community fix those. I hope we can let machines do mindless
tasks, and let humans do decision making.  This would improve contributors
morale, instead of making them feel like robots :)

Clarifying: the OSM objects already point to those pages via redirect. The
redirect information is only stored in Wikipedia.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:18 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> or via Osmose ?
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> > what about a Maproulette task ?
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan 
> wrote:
> >> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag
> does
> >> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects,
> whose
> >> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
> >> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we
> should fix
> >> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
> time,
> >> when it can be semi-automated.
> >>
> >> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
> >> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> ___
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

or via Osmose ?

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:16 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> what about a Maproulette task ?
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  
> wrote:
>> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
>> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
>> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
>> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should fix
>> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community time,
>> when it can be semi-automated.
>>
>> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
>> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Marc Gemis]

what about a Maproulette task ?

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:11 AM, Yuri Astrakhan  wrote:
> At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
> not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
> target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
> wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should fix
> them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community time,
> when it can be semi-automated.
>
> I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
> wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Marc Gemis]

> moving it here.  I believe I acted in good faith according to the mechanical
> edit policy - discussed with the community, and proceeded.

I believe the mechanical edit polity demands that you discuss with the
*local* community. That means if your edit modifies items in e.g.
Mexico, Belgium and Japan, you have to discuss your edit with the
communities in Mexico, Belgium and Japan. This might also mean that
you have to discuss it via Telegram, Facebook, email, IRC, etc.
depending on where that local community is.

The talk mailing list is not sufficient.

regards

m.

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[OSM-talk] Fixing OSM wikipedia redirects

[Yuri Astrakhan]

At the moment, there are nearly 40,000 OSM objects whose wikipedia tag does
not match their wikidata tag. Most of them are Wikipedia redirects, whose
target is the right wikipedia article. If we are not ready to abandon
wikipedia tags just yet (I don't think we should ATM), I think we should
fix them.  Fixing them by hand seems like a huge waste of the community
time, when it can be semi-automated.

I propose that a small program, possibly a plugin to JOSM, would change
wikipedia tags to point to the target article instead of the redirect.

Thoughts?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding wikidata tags to the remaining objects with only wikipedia tag

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Since this thread had not received any new discussion in the past 4 days, I
assumed all points were answered and proceeded as planned, per mechanical
edit policy. Yet, after I have added all the nodes and moved on to
relations, I have been blocked by Andy Townsend with the following message.
I believe Andy is acting in best interest of the project, yet might have
missed or misread this discussion.  Also, the block is such that I am no
longer able to even reply on the changesets to the raised questions, so
moving it here.  I believe I acted in good faith according to the
mechanical edit policy - discussed with the community, and proceeded.

A few interesting semi-relevant statistics so far:  the number of
discovered links to disambig pages is now back to over 800, even without
100k+ untaged ways. And there are almost 38,000 osm objects where wikipedia
tag does not correspond with wikidata tag. The number is very high, but
fixing them should be semi-automated, as most of them are redirects. TBD.

Here's Andy's message, with my inlined replies. I think that almost all of
the raised points have been raised and answered in our previous discussion,
but I feel it is my responsibility to present them again.

You're conducting an import of known bad data (your own changeset comments
> say "Further cleanup will be done using...").
>

Per previous description, the existing data is already bad, and I am simply
making it possible to identify it, after discussing it on this thread.


> You are wilfully ignoring the feedback that you're receiving now and have
> received in the past. A lot of issues have been raised about the quality of
> your edits - see
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=339581 . In
> many cases you seem to agree that you're adding rubbish, and yet you
> continue.
>
You seem to be suggesting (in
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-September/078767.html
> ) that "the community" clean up your mess. This is not the way that
> OpenStreetMap works - if an individual is adding data to it (especially
> large quantities of data) then it is their responsibility to ensure that
> the data that they are adding is valid, or at least as valid as the data
> that is already there.
>

Again, no, I am identifying rubbish, not introducing it, and I am very
actively replying to every comment I receive.  This is not "my data" - the
data is already in OSM in the form of the incorrect wikipedia tags. This
action is identical to what iD editor does - it *automatically* adds
corresponding wikidata ID, without any additional checks, and without many
users even being aware of it.  The way to solve the quality of this data is
to analyze it with the OSM+Wikidata tool I have built, to see the
mismatches.  Since there are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of issues
already in the database, it is clearly impossible to fix it by one person.
The available choices are:  me doing it by hand, and fixing a handful, or
make it possible to find problems, so everyone can fix them. (per Andy
Mabbett explanation)

Please go back and reread some of your previous replies on
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=339581 .
> Things like "I will mostly work on high level objects (admin level <= 6)"
> suggests that you are at the very least being disingenuous in your dealings
> with the OSM community.
>

This was written a long time ago, before this effort was even started, and
before I have built the tools (OSM+Wikidata) to let community find issues.
Back then I had to do everything myself, and since it was clearly
impossible, I stopped after fixing the wast majority of the uncovered
issues by hand.


> Please stop this mechanical edit now and instead spend your time
> addressing the issues that have been raised.
>

I believe i have answered this numerous times above and in previous
conversations.  I cannot address tens of thousands of issues i *find*, I
can only help community see them, and do my part in fixing them.  Without
this effort, all the bad data in the form of incorrect wikipedia tags will
still be there, quickly rotting away with every wikipedia page rename.

P.S.  An interesting point was brought by Andy in the later online chat:

>
> in the case of https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/43749373 the
> errors were explicitly introduced by you.  The links from OSM to wikipedia
> were correct, the thing (probably a bot) creating the wikidata from
> wikipedia didn't understand the breadth of what the wikipedia article
> represented, and you incorrectly linked from OSM to the wikidata article.
>

Andy, Wikidata ID is not correct or incorrect -- it is simply a number
assigned to a Wikipedia article.  That number may have other statements,
which themselves may be incorrect. Adding Wikidata ID locks that Wikipedia
tag in place, to keep it from going stale - in case that page is renamed,
and in case a disambig is created in its place.  In some cases, the concept
presented in 

[Talk-us] Recent Aerial Photo Imagery Changes

[David Wisbey]

Fellow mappers,
So what's up with the recent changes in our aerial photo imagery?
It used to be so simple and I followed the rule(?) of making sure featuresline 
up with Bing imagery.  I'm wondering about that now - big time.I have been 
mapping in a variety of locations lately and the situation isdifferent in each 
location.  In Minnesota, for instance, I really don't wantto use Bing imagery 
unless at some zoom level it shows me the mostcurrent images (especially in 
high growth areas like northwest Rochester).And when recently updating an 
intersection in southwest Minnesota to anew roundabout, I was aghast at what 
Bing was giving me and so only usedit where the quality/resolution "wasn't TOO 
bad". Sad. Mapbox, ESRI andother imagery were all much better choices, 
especially between Blomkestand Hutchinson, MN. 
So the main question now is: Does the "line up with Bing" rule still stand?In 
recent work around the city of Virginia, Minnesota (re-routing of US 53)I felt 
I had to use Mapbox imagery and so lined up what I could with it ratherthan 
Bing. In most cases, they matched or were off by only 2 meters or so.
I would provide a link to show you the worst area I found (along MN 7 
severalmiles east of Blomkest) but Openstreetmap.org seems to be down right now.
DavidYour Village Maps
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

OSMAND+ already uses a vector-based system to render OSM-data-based maps, 
and has been doing so for some time. So, the technology already exists.



On September 25, 2017 6:22:59 AM Richard Fairhurst  
wrote:



Frederik Ramm wrote:

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.


Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using the 
Latin language.



On September 25, 2017 8:56:04 AM Oleksiy Muzalyev 
 wrote:



On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev
>:

The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European
culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.

If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity
solution.

And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia.
And it is understandable, for example Japan is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium

It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make
a map usable on the international scale.

Best regards,

Oleksiy




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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[ael]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 05:51:18PM +0100, Kevin Peat wrote:
> >Anyway, I take it that no one is objecting to my changes and wanting to
> >revert them?
> >
> >ael
> >
> >
> >___
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> >Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> 
> This was discussed in a thread here a number of years ago. There is a lot of 
> upland heath on the moor:
> 
> http://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/wildlife-and-heritage/habitats2/moorland/upland-heathland
> 
> I think it would be better if it was kept as heath with a sub type. Just 
> changing it to moor doesn't add anything useful.

Thanks for the link: interesting. Now the question is: what subtype?
heath=upland perhaps?

I am not sure that all the areas that I modified were all "upland",
although I suppose pretty well all of Dartmoor is high.

I agree that  moor doesn't add anything: indeed it was intended to
remove incorrect information on my original narrow understanding of
"heath".



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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[ael]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 06:04:32PM +0100, Elizabeth Oldham wrote:
> On 25/09/17 17:13, ael wrote:
> 
> > Well, surely this make the tag so general as to be pretty useless. The
> > original meaning was pretty specific and useful. "Moor" or something
> > equivalant is well understood (in the UK, at least) and is useful as
> > a broad description where detailed mapping is absent.
> > 
> > Anyway, I take it that no one is objecting to my changes and wanting to
> > revert them?
> 
> No objection here. Descriptive word is moor, everyone and his dog recognises
> it for what it is. The use of heath to describe moors is simply bizarre.
> IMHO/YYMV.

That was exactly my feeling, but the link to 
http://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/wildlife-and-heritage/habitats2/moorland/upland-heathland
given by Kevin suggests that perhaps some variety of heath is not too
wrong after all.

ael


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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[SK53]

I'm not really suggesting replacing the tag, I just want to make it easier
to find lowland heath.

For now these 2 pages by Alan Silverside (Uni of West Scotland) provide
lots of good illustrations (names are still botanical though):


   - Heathland 1: http://bioref.lastdragon.org/habitats/Heathlands1.html
   - Heathlands 2: http://bioref.lastdragon.org/habitats/Heathlands2.html

Good examples of Acid Heath (D1.1 in Phase1) from Wales which may be
familiar:

   - South Stack, Holy Island, Anglesey
   - Yr Eifl & Mynydd Rhiw on Llyn
   - Rhinogs around Cwm Bychan (but not S part of range from Y Llethr
   towards Barmouth
   - Hills around World's End (N of Llangollen)
   - Much of Tryfan and the land to the S around Bwlch Tryfan
   - Moel Meirch (NW of Cnicht & S of Nant Gwynant)
   - Mynydd Mawr
   - Black Mountains S of Hay Bluff
   - Gray Hill, Gwent
   - Presellis
   - Radnor Forest and hills to S (SW of Gladestry)

Of these areas Mynydd Rhiw and the S Rhinogs offer good examples of this
heath in a mosaic with grassland.

Basic Dry Heath (D.1.2) is very rare in Wales.

Damp Heath (D.2):

   - E side of the Rhinogs S of Coed y Brenin forestry
   - On the Migneint S of Ysbyty Ifan
   - A small patch SW of Sennybridge (Fforest Fawr), much of the rest a
   mosaic with grassland
   - Several patches on the S side of the Carneddau overlooking the A5

Lichen Heath (D.3)

   - Summits of the Glyderau

Montane Heath (D.4)

None in the Welsh dataset

Mosaics (D.5 & D.6), see above where some have been noted under the
core-heathland type.

Now I need to find more useful pics of these sites.

Jerry

On 25 September 2017 at 14:53, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 25/09/2017 13:36, SK53 wrote:
>
> When this thread first started I thought we could work to remove these
> multiple meanings, but having seen what places with natural=heath from
> Corine imported-data in the Cevennes,  suspect that this is an unrealistic
> objective.
>
>
> Well just because one bad import used "Tag A" is not necessarily a reason
> to not use "Tag A" elsewhere.  If we did that we'd never use
> highway=residential post-TIGER :)
>
> The alternatives are to start sub-typing natural=heath, with heath or
> heath:type. The main category to identify in the short-term are the classic
> lowland heaths which are scarce & threatened in the UK.
>
> Wikipedia has a partial tabulation
> 
> of the formal heath categories in the National Vegetation Classification,
> which may help as background reading. I'm sure that pretty much all
> communities in the U-group (calcifugous grassland & montane), several Mires
> (e.g., M15 & M16), and even some calcicolous upland grasslands are included
> in current natural=heath.
>
> At a more practical level the JNCC Phase 1
> 
> guide recognises 6 heath categories, of which 4 are relatively common: wet
> & dry heaths, and their respective mosaics with grassland. Anything where
> the peat depth in the soil is NOT regarded as a heath, but will be a Mire
> community (pennine moorland will be largely blanket bog in this
> terminology).
>
> Both NVC  &
> Phase1 
> have relevant pages on the wiki for (slightly) further info. NVC is clearly
> far too technical for just about everyone, but Phase1 is probably usable
> with a small bit of guidance.
>
> Probably the best way to take this forward is to compile good examples of
> places people are likely to know (particularly in National Parks) which
> have a known classification AND a reasonable number of usable images on
> Geograph. Wales is the easiest place to do this because the whole of the
> country was mapped using Phase1.
>
>
> What would be useful to me would be to know what questions I should be
> asking myself to allow something tagged sensibly down the line?  Can they
> be reduced from the 11 pages in "pub10_handbookforphase1habitatsurvey.pdf"
> that you linked to and phrased in ways that I could actually understand
> ("Ulex europaeus, Cytisus scoparius and Juniperus communis scrub" is
> something that would make Oleksiy in the Latin "talk@" thread very happy,
> but it's all greek to me!)?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Présentation

[Bruno]

Le 25/09/2017 à 19:51, Cédric Frayssinet a écrit :


Bonjour à tous,

Nouveau sur cette liste, je me présente rapidement.

Je suis enseignant en Sciences de l'Ingénieur à Lyon, formateur 
académique au numérique et, on peut le dire, libriste...


J'ai un compte OSM depuis 2011, mais je suis plus actif depuis 
quelques mois. J'ai commencé à cartographier avec précision mon 
village de vacances, puis, je suis tombé dans la marmite... bien aidé 
par les applications OSMand~, StreetComplete, OSMContributor et un peu 
OpenStreetCam.


J'avoue, je n'utilise pas encore JOSM, seulement ID que je trouve 
parfait pour débuter. Mais je compte bien m'y mettre dès que je 
trouverai le temps de parcourir des tutos.


Je me suis inscrit ici pour poser des questions de débutant, j'espère 
que c'est le lieu, car les derniers me font penser qu'il y a quelques 
experts dans la communauté, et c'est tant mieux !


Bonne soirée,

Cédric


--
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Google ! Client d'Enercoop 
, l'énergie militante


Également sur Mastodon : @bristow...@framapiaf.org 



Promouvoir et soutenir le logiciel libre 



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Bonjour à toi et bienvenue !

Juste un commentaire : Josm est aussi facile à utiliser que ID ou autre 
outils, lance toi et tu verras que les explications données en page 
d'accueil suffisent pour les choses simples et le reste suit.


Bonne soirée,

Bruno

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 25.09.2017 o 13:15, Maarten Deen pisze:
Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of 
selecting layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable 
it), I was more thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all 
language overlays. No idea if this is currently possible in openlayers.


More basic solution would be to use language settings from the user 
account preferences.


I've done simple list of possible solutions of name labels problem:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330526353 



They can be rendering related or deployment related. Both have its 
merits, but they can be used in parallel too.


1. Vector based solution can be full, but that's long ahead of us, yet 
in a medium term a vector names overlay should be affordable. We already 
use overlays, so the problem would be to prepare name-only vector tiles 
and deploy a code to show them on OSM website. I was thinking that maybe 
some less loaded server could be used to generate such tiles.


2. But raster rendering can be improved too. I think there's a sliding 
scale between small objects (probably only local names), big objects (in 
general no local names) and medium scale (mix of local and other 
languages). For the biggest objects (continents, oceans, seas) I've come 
to the conclusion that a set of 6 official UN languages might be good, 
small objects translations are probably fake (=not possible to verify) 
anyway, so we could just try to improve medium scale somehow (countries, 
capitals, lakes). I would not think of Latina or Esperanto, because 
English is used by much more people, if we talk about latin script. I 
also don't know what to do with users of other scripts which are not 
familiar with latin.


Overall I think vector name labels overlay is the most interesting 
solution for now, apart from osm-carto tuning. What do you think about 
it, would anyone try to do this as a pilot probably? I would be happy to 
help.


--
"Probably it's an eternal problem - too many chiefs, too few Indians" [O. 
Muzalyev]


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[OSM-talk-fr] Présentation

[Cédric Frayssinet]

Bonjour à tous,

Nouveau sur cette liste, je me présente rapidement.

Je suis enseignant en Sciences de l'Ingénieur à Lyon, formateur
académique au numérique et, on peut le dire, libriste...

J'ai un compte OSM depuis 2011, mais je suis plus actif depuis quelques
mois. J'ai commencé à cartographier avec précision mon village de
vacances, puis, je suis tombé dans la marmite... bien aidé par les
applications OSMand~, StreetComplete, OSMContributor et un peu
OpenStreetCam.

J'avoue, je n'utilise pas encore JOSM, seulement ID que je trouve
parfait pour débuter. Mais je compte bien m'y mettre dès que je
trouverai le temps de parcourir des tutos.

Je me suis inscrit ici pour poser des questions de débutant, j'espère
que c'est le lieu, car les derniers me font penser qu'il y a quelques
experts dans la communauté, et c'est tant mieux !

Bonne soirée,

Cédric


-- 
En cure de désintoxication  de
Google ! Client d'Enercoop
, l'énergie militante

Également sur Mastodon : @bristow...@framapiaf.org


Promouvoir et soutenir le logiciel libre 

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Contribution arbres remarquables du Bas-Rhin

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

Also sprach PIERRE Sylvain [Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 02:39:19PM +] :
> 
> Le département du Bas-Rhin a initié depuis 5 ans un inventaire des arbres 
> remarquables.
> Cet inventaire comporte un volet géographique visible ici :
> http://sigweb.bas-rhin.fr/arbrem/, plus de 250 arbres étant recensés à ce
> jour.
> 
> Notre collectivité souhaiterai pouvoir « pousser » ces arbres dans OSM.

Il y a bien longtemps, émerveillé par les arbres que les Hauts-de-Seine
mettaient à disposition librement, j'avais commencé à étudier un
import/synchronisation avec Openstreetmap. J'ai lâchement abandonné en cours de
route, pataugeant dans un machin XML-relationnel trop ambitieux que je tairai
donc pudiquement... Mais mon étude de l'étiquetage envisagé pourrait
éventuellement participer à votre inspiration:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_France/Open_Data_Hauts-de-Seine_Arbres


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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[Elizabeth Oldham]

On 25/09/17 17:13, ael wrote:


Well, surely this make the tag so general as to be pretty useless. The
original meaning was pretty specific and useful. "Moor" or something
equivalant is well understood (in the UK, at least) and is useful as
a broad description where detailed mapping is absent.

Anyway, I take it that no one is objecting to my changes and wanting to
revert them?


No objection here. Descriptive word is moor, everyone and his dog 
recognises it for what it is. The use of heath to describe moors is 
simply bizarre. IMHO/YYMV.


Beth

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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[Kevin Peat]

On 25 September 2017 17:13:01 BST, ael  wrote:
>On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 01:36:22PM +0100, SK53 wrote:
>> Moor (or possibly fell) covers a decent amount of Corine data
>imported
>> across Europe as natural=heath. In effect natural=heath on OSM no
>longer
>> means heath. It may mean any of the following:
>> 
>>- Upland vegetation in its broadest sense: unimproved upland
>grassland,
>>drier blanket bogs (covered by heather), Racometrium heath,
>Bilberry
>>dominated heath, Shrubby vegetation dominated by brooms (at least
>in France
>>& Spain), and no doubt a few others I've missed.
>>- Moorland in Britain, which is probably a slightly smaller subset
>of
>>the above
>>- Lowland heathland: places like the Surrey Heaths, Suffolk
>Sandlings,
>>Norfolk Brecks etc.
>>- Other less obvious lowland areas known as heaths: particularly
>with
>>large swathes of bracken and patches of birch.
>> 
>> When this thread first started I thought we could work to remove
>these
>> multiple meanings, but having seen what places with natural=heath
>from
>> Corine imported-data in the Cevennes,  suspect that this is an
>unrealistic
>> objective.
>
>Well, surely this make the tag so general as to be pretty useless. The
>original meaning was pretty specific and useful. "Moor" or something
>equivalant is well understood (in the UK, at least) and is useful as
>a broad description where detailed mapping is absent.
>
>Anyway, I take it that no one is objecting to my changes and wanting to
>revert them?
>
>ael
>
>
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This was discussed in a thread here a number of years ago. There is a lot of 
upland heath on the moor:

http://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/wildlife-and-heritage/habitats2/moorland/upland-heathland

I think it would be better if it was kept as heath with a sub type. Just 
changing it to moor doesn't add anything useful.

Kevin


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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[ael]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 01:36:22PM +0100, SK53 wrote:
> Moor (or possibly fell) covers a decent amount of Corine data imported
> across Europe as natural=heath. In effect natural=heath on OSM no longer
> means heath. It may mean any of the following:
> 
>- Upland vegetation in its broadest sense: unimproved upland grassland,
>drier blanket bogs (covered by heather), Racometrium heath, Bilberry
>dominated heath, Shrubby vegetation dominated by brooms (at least in France
>& Spain), and no doubt a few others I've missed.
>- Moorland in Britain, which is probably a slightly smaller subset of
>the above
>- Lowland heathland: places like the Surrey Heaths, Suffolk Sandlings,
>Norfolk Brecks etc.
>- Other less obvious lowland areas known as heaths: particularly with
>large swathes of bracken and patches of birch.
> 
> When this thread first started I thought we could work to remove these
> multiple meanings, but having seen what places with natural=heath from
> Corine imported-data in the Cevennes,  suspect that this is an unrealistic
> objective.

Well, surely this make the tag so general as to be pretty useless. The
original meaning was pretty specific and useful. "Moor" or something
equivalant is well understood (in the UK, at least) and is useful as
a broad description where detailed mapping is absent.

Anyway, I take it that no one is objecting to my changes and wanting to
revert them?

ael


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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Contribution arbres remarquables du Bas-Rhin

[marc marc]

Bonjour,

Merci d'avoir lancé la discussion de votre import avant sa réalisation.

> ·Pouvons-nous contribuer à OSM sur ce périmètre, et si oui comment ?Pour ma 
> part, oui, les données semblent de qualité et utile à être
intégrée dans osm.

> ·Faut-il privilégier la saisie individuelle de chaque arbre ? 
> Ou bien l’import ?
Le problème d'un import simple c'est que cela va provoquer des
doublons si quelqu'un a déjà ajouté l'un de ces arbres dans osm.
Voici une requête qui sélectionne les arbres présent dans osm
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/rXx
Il n'y a hélas pas de tag à ma connaissance permettant de limiter
la requête aux arbres remarquables.

Je vois 2 solutions pratiques :
- soit l'import manuel, le plus gourmand en temps.
- soit tester la localisation de vos arbres avec ceux présent dans osm.
Si la localisation d'un de vos arbres est situé à + de X mètres de ceux 
existant dans osm, il est importable sans risque de doublon.
Si un arbre est présent tout proche de l'endroit de la localisation d'un 
arbre de votre db, il faudra alors vérifier en manuel si c'est le même 
arbre qui existe déjà ou si c'est un arbre différent.
Le no de matricule de votre base pouvant être importé dans osm et/ou à 
l'inverse importer le no osm dans votre base afin de les "lier"
Toute la difficultés étant de définir ce "X" mètre. sans doute 
faudrait-il commencer par une valeur élevée (50m ?)
et voir combien de conflit potentiel cela génère.

Avez-vous déjà fait une correspondance des tags que vous pensez
utiliser ?

Cordialement,
Marc
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [osm-fr CA] Lettre ouverte "Argent Public ? Code Public !'

[Vincent de Château-Thierry]

Bonjour,

> De: "Vincent de Château-Thierry" 
> > De: "Nicolas Dumoulin" 
> > 
> > Je suis favorable à ce que OSM-Fr signe l'appel.
> 
> D'accord aussi. On peut laisser le sujet ouvert quelques jours ici,
> et si pas d'arguments contre, signer au nom d'OSM-FR dans le courant
> de la semaine prochaine.

OpenStreetMap France est désormais signataire de l'appel, notre logo est venu 
s'ajouter aujourd'hui à ceux des nombreuses autres organisations soutenant la 
démarche, par ici : https://publiccode.eu/fr/.

Si vous vous sentez une proximité avec cet appel, n'hésitez pas à venir le 
signer aussi à titre individuel, et à le relayer : 
https://twitter.com/OSM_FR/status/912341873074884608

Merci à tous, et à Vincent (Privat) pour avoir amené le sujet par ici.

vincent (pour OSM France)

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Re: [Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.

[Stefano]

Il giorno 25 settembre 2017 17:30, Damjan Gerl  ha
scritto:

> Credo abbiano aggiunto il tag wikidata=yy dove c'era già wikipedia=xx.
>
> A proposito di wikidata, qualcuno potrebbe spiegare come/dove si trova il
> numero wikidata avendo il dato wikipedia=xx?
>

Su JOSM con il plugin wikipedia c'è la funzione "fetch wikidata id".
Manualmente basta andare sulla voce wikipedia e cliccare a sinistra su
"elemento wikidata".


>
> Grazie
> Damjan
>

Ciao,
Stefano

>
>
> -- Original Header ---
>
> From  : "Alessandro" ale_z...@libero.it
> To  : talk-it@openstreetmap.org
> Cc  :
> Date  : Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:08:09 +0200
> Subject : Re: [Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.
>
> > Il 25/09/2017 15:44, Andreas Lattmann ha scritto:
> > > Buongiorno,
> > > Ne sapete qualche cosa di questo changeset?
> > >
> > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52343388#map=1/46/11
> > >
> > > Scusate per il disturbo.
> > >
> >
> > Ciao,
> > basta vedere cosa fanno e chi c'è dietro :-)
> >
> > Sono contributi del mitico Yuri Astrakhan che ho avuto il piacere di
> > conoscere a SOTM 2016, uno dei "motori umani" delle mappe OSM di
> Wikimedia.
> >
> > https://twitter.com/nyuriks/status/902220333515767808
> >
> > Alessandro Ale_Zena_IT
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-it mailing list
> > Talk-it@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
> >
>
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Re: [Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.

[Damjan Gerl]

Credo abbiano aggiunto il tag wikidata=yy dove c'era già wikipedia=xx.

A proposito di wikidata, qualcuno potrebbe spiegare come/dove si trova il 
numero wikidata avendo il dato wikipedia=xx?

Grazie
Damjan


-- Original Header ---

From  : "Alessandro" ale_z...@libero.it
To  : talk-it@openstreetmap.org
Cc  : 
Date  : Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:08:09 +0200
Subject : Re: [Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.

> Il 25/09/2017 15:44, Andreas Lattmann ha scritto:
> > Buongiorno,
> > Ne sapete qualche cosa di questo changeset?
> > 
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52343388#map=1/46/11
> > 
> > Scusate per il disturbo.
> > 
> 
> Ciao,
> basta vedere cosa fanno e chi c'è dietro :-)
> 
> Sono contributi del mitico Yuri Astrakhan che ho avuto il piacere di 
> conoscere a SOTM 2016, uno dei "motori umani" delle mappe OSM di Wikimedia.
> 
> https://twitter.com/nyuriks/status/902220333515767808
> 
> Alessandro Ale_Zena_IT
> 
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> 

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Re: [Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.

[Alessandro]

Il 25/09/2017 15:44, Andreas Lattmann ha scritto:

Buongiorno,
Ne sapete qualche cosa di questo changeset?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52343388#map=1/46/11

Scusate per il disturbo.



Ciao,
basta vedere cosa fanno e chi c'è dietro :-)

Sono contributi del mitico Yuri Astrakhan che ho avuto il piacere di 
conoscere a SOTM 2016, uno dei "motori umani" delle mappe OSM di Wikimedia.


https://twitter.com/nyuriks/status/902220333515767808

Alessandro Ale_Zena_IT

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 25.09.17 16:19, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?

Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto 
enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aeo and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).  I'm surprised that one 
of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.


While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German 
so that we can be a bit more precise about everything?


Best Regards,

Andy (not entirely seriously)


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The Latin language has got an advantage over Esperanto. It is possible 
to view and read historical maps which are often in Latin. For example, 
in Latin the North Pole is Polus Arcticus, and in Esperanto it is Norda 
poluso. But if one looks at the historical map:


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polus_arcticus#/media/File:Mercator_north_pole_1595.jpg

it is Polus Arcticus.

The same about inscriptions on the historical monuments, plaques, 
stones, columns, walls, etc. I have nothing against Esperanto, but it 
was created only by the end of the 19th century.


Best regards,
Oleksiy


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[OSM-talk-fr] Contribution arbres remarquables du Bas-Rhin

[PIERRE Sylvain]

Bonjour,

Le département du Bas-Rhin a initié depuis 5 ans un inventaire des arbres 
remarquables.
Cet inventaire comporte un volet géographique visible ici : 
http://sigweb.bas-rhin.fr/arbrem/, plus de 250 arbres étant recensés à ce jour.

Notre collectivité souhaiterai pouvoir « pousser » ces arbres dans OSM.

Après avoir parcouru les ressources suivantes :
http://openstreetmap.fr/contribuer
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Guide_du_d%C3%A9butant
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dtree
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

nos interrogations sont les suivantes :

· Pouvons-nous contribuer à OSM sur ce périmètre, et si oui comment ?

· Faut-il privilégier la saisie individuelle de chaque arbre ? Ou bien 
l’import ?

D’avance merci



→  Sylvain PIERRE
 Chef de projet système d’information
 Direction des Systèmes d’Information
 Service Projets et Applications Numériques
   Conseil Départemental du Bas-Rhin

[cid:image001.jpg@01D3361C.D5A06840]

 Hôtel du Département
 1 place du Quartier Blanc 67964 Strasbourg Cedex 9
 Tél : 03 88 76 68 88 - mobile :
 Mobile : 06 30 96 31 76
 Email : sylvain.pie...@bas-rhin.fr
 www.bas-rhin.fr


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Nicolás Alvarez]

> El 25 sept 2017, a las 10:54, Imre Samu  escribió:.
> 
> What about the other alternatives?
> 
> for example:
> - just adding ALL (official[1])  dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and 
> keeping the current design for Z9-Z19
> 
> so there will be  (z0-z8)
> - local + english
> - local + chinese
> - local + arabic
> - local + japanese
> - local + russian
> - local + german
> - local + spanish
> - ...  
> - local + greek
> - local + hungarian
> - local + 
> - .

This is 262144 more tiles *per language*. Who wants to donate a few disks?

>  
> And the other question:   Adding the English language now  - can be 
> counterproductive for implementing the full multi-language support?   ( for 
> example - less urgency?)

That sounds like an argument against any incremental improvement ever. Wouldn't 
your proposed multilingual tiles cause less urgency for vector tiles too?

> Imre
> /native Hungarian/
> 
> 
> 
> 2017-09-25 13:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :
>> On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst  
>> wrote:
>> > Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
>> >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>> >
>> > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>> >
>> > But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
>> > openstreetmap-carto.
>> 
>> Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
>> tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
>> now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
>> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.
>> 
>> -- Matthijs
>> 
>> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

Mi ankaŭ proponas ke ni uzos esperanto! :-)

2017-09-25 16:19 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:
>
>>
>> If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?
>>
>> Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto
> enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.
> org/keys/name%3Aeo and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).
> I'm surprised that one of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.
>
> While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German so
> that we can be a bit more precise about everything?
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy (not entirely seriously)
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Nicolás Alvarez]

And now we're talking about years of work. The original post to this thread 
already said making multiple versions is technically hard and out of scope.


> El 25 sept 2017, a las 07:39, James  escribió:
> 
> That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG 
> itself
> 
>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:
>> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in 
>> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is 
>> not a practical endeavour.
>> 
>> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might 
>>> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words. 
>>> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based 
>>> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if 
>>> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>> 
>>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese 
>>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>> 
 On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev"  
 wrote:
> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
> 
> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
> Latin-alphabet). [...]
 
 Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to non-Latin 
 alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and also in 
 Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
 
 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
 
 Best regards,
 
 Oleksiy
 
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/09/2017 14:53, Oleksiy Muzalyev wrote:


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French?

Well _obviously_ the answer is Esperanto.  There are a few Esperanto 
enthusiasts adding names to OSM (see e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/name%3Aeo and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157076265 ).  I'm surprised that one 
of them hasn't popped up in this thread already.


While we're at it can we change the default tagging language to German 
so that we can be a bit more precise about everything?


Best Regards,

Andy (not entirely seriously)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Imre Samu]

>Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
>tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
>now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
>line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

What about the other alternatives?

for example:
- just adding ALL (official[1])  dual languages for only Z0-Z8 level, and
keeping the current design for Z9-Z19

so there will be  (z0-z8)
- local + english
- local + chinese
- local + arabic
- local + japanese
- local + russian
- local + german
- local + spanish
- ...
- local + greek
- local + hungarian
- local + 
- .

[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_official_languages

For the small languages, it will be useful for fixing data problems early,
and IMHO a better transition for a full multi-language support.


>The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to  
>(additionally)
display labels in English
> (or in any case the Latin-alphabet)

We must remember the survivorship bias [
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias ]
People who can't speak English - can't complain in the English forum.  (
lack of visibility )

And the other question:   Adding the English language now  - can be
counterproductive for implementing the full multi-language support?   ( for
example - less urgency?)

Imre
/native Hungarian/



2017-09-25 13:48 GMT+02:00 Matthijs Melissen :

> On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst 
> wrote:
> > Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
> >> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
> >
> > Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
> >
> > But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
> > openstreetmap-carto.
>
> Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
> tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
> now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev 
>:


The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has 
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern 
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin 
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European 
culture). ;-)



Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage 
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The 
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.


If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which 
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the 
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable 
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity 
solution.


And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need 
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia. 
And it is understandable, for example Japan is: 
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is: 
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium


It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a 
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make 
a map usable on the international scale.


Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/09/2017 13:36, SK53 wrote:
When this thread first started I thought we could work to remove these 
multiple meanings, but having seen what places with natural=heath from 
Corine imported-data in the Cevennes,  suspect that this is an 
unrealistic objective.


Well just because one bad import used "Tag A" is not necessarily a 
reason to not use "Tag A" elsewhere.  If we did that we'd never use 
highway=residential post-TIGER :)


The alternatives are to start sub-typing natural=heath, with heath or 
heath:type. The main category to identify in the short-term are the 
classic lowland heaths which are scarce & threatened in the UK.


Wikipedia has a partial tabulation 
 
of the formal heath categories in the National Vegetation 
Classification, which may help as background reading. I'm sure that 
pretty much all communities in the U-group (calcifugous grassland & 
montane), several Mires (e.g., M15 & M16), and even some calcicolous 
upland grasslands are included in current natural=heath.


At a more practical level the JNCC Phase 1 
 
guide recognises 6 heath categories, of which 4 are relatively common: 
wet & dry heaths, and their respective mosaics with grassland. 
Anything where the peat depth in the soil is NOT regarded as a heath, 
but will be a Mire community (pennine moorland will be largely blanket 
bog in this terminology).


Both NVC  & 
Phase1 
 
have relevant pages on the wiki for (slightly) further info. NVC is 
clearly far too technical for just about everyone, but Phase1 is 
probably usable with a small bit of guidance.


Probably the best way to take this forward is to compile good examples 
of places people are likely to know (particularly in National Parks) 
which have a known classification AND a reasonable number of usable 
images on Geograph. Wales is the easiest place to do this because the 
whole of the country was mapped using Phase1.




What would be useful to me would be to know what questions I should be 
asking myself to allow something tagged sensibly down the line? Can they 
be reduced from the 11 pages in 
"pub10_handbookforphase1habitatsurvey.pdf" that you linked to and 
phrased in ways that I could actually understand ("Ulex europaeus, 
Cytisus scoparius and Juniperus communis scrub" is something that would 
make Oleksiy in the Latin "talk@" thread very happy, but it's all greek 
to me!)?


Best Regards,

Andy


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[Talk-it] Changeset auto-matching.

[Andreas Lattmann]

Buongiorno,
Ne sapete qualche cosa di questo changeset?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52343388#map=1/46/11

Scusate per il disturbo.

-- 
Inviato dal mio dispositivo Android con K-9 Mail. Perdonate la brevità.

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Re: [Talk-it] Metro Roma

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Sep 2017, at 15:31, Dino Michelini  wrote:
> 
> Diao, alcune stazioni ferroviarie della FL3 tratta Cesano-Roma Ostiense (non 
> svolge servizio di metropolitana 
> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servizi_ferroviari_suburbani_di_Roma#Linea_FL3) 
> sono in superficie (Cesano-Olgiata-la Storta-Giustignana-Ottavia-Ipogeo degli 
> Ottavi-S. Filippo Neri-Monte Mario-Valle Aurelia [elevata su ponte]) altre 
> sotterranee (Gemelli-Balduina-Appiano-Quattro Venti)


a quelli sotterranee va aggiunto tunnel=yes, o cosa intendi?


Ciao, Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Place Tagging Overview Wiki page

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Sep 2017, at 17:22, SwiftFast  wrote:
> 
> There are many places to tag places. (node, way, admin area,
> landuse=residential, etc). This confuses me, and I assume it confuses
> many others. We need a comprehensive summary covering all cases.
> 
> Here's a draft: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Place_tagging_overv
> iew . It's likely inaccurate/incomplete. Please help me improve it.



the reason for the confusion is maybe, that there are different kind of things 
mapped in the same key (place). A country as administrative territorial entity  
is also covered by boundary=administrative and admin_level=2. Historically the 
place nodes for this kind of object had been needed because we couldn’t 
otherwise render these objects (too big/complex), e.g. with Osmarender. The 
precise intention of the tag isn’t very clear, because the wiki only says 
place=country is a tag for countries, but doesn’t specify what a country is, it 
does give a hint though that it is also for non “nation states”.

Wikipedia is more explicit and mentions several meanings: 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country

eg sovereign state, non-sovereign state, geografic region associated with sets 
of previously independent or differently associated people with distinct 
political characteristics.

Other place values like counties or municipalities would definitely not need to 
be mapped as places because they already are defined by their administrative 
boundaries.

For settlements the situation is somehow different (more like country), as the 
settlement land often doesn’t correspond to the political administrative 
territory with (often) the same name, simply because there’s (usually) space 
between on settlement and another.

I would be in favor of deprecating the use of place for things that are defined 
by administrative boundaries and of purely administrative nature (e.g. states, 
counties)

Cheers,
Martin 


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Re: [Talk-it] Metro Roma

[Dino Michelini]

  Diao, alcune stazioni ferroviarie della FL3 tratta Cesano-Roma
Ostiense (non svolge servizio di metropolitana
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servizi_ferroviari_suburbani_di_Roma#Linea_FL3)
sono in superficie (Cesano-Olgiata-la Storta-Giustignana-Ottavia-Ipogeo
degli Ottavi-S. Filippo Neri-Monte Mario-Valle Aurelia [elevata su
ponte]) altre sotterranee (Gemelli-Balduina-Appiano-Quattro Venti)

Il
25.09.2017 15:04 Martin Koppenhoefer ha scritto: 

> sent from a phone
>

>> On 22. Sep 2017, at 01:01, Cascafico Giovanni wrote: Sono abbastanza
sicuro che "Spagna" e "Monti Tiburtini" non siano su ferrovia di
superficie, ma altri non saprei.
> 
> confermo, sono stazioni della
metro A (S) e B (MT)
> 
> Ciao, Martin 
> 
>
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Re: [Talk-it] Metro Roma

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Sep 2017, at 01:01, Cascafico Giovanni  wrote:
> 
> Sono abbastanza sicuro che "Spagna" e "Monti Tiburtini" non siano su ferrovia 
> di superficie, ma altri non saprei.


confermo, sono stazioni della metro A (S) e B (MT)

Ciao, Martin 


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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[SK53]

Moor (or possibly fell) covers a decent amount of Corine data imported
across Europe as natural=heath. In effect natural=heath on OSM no longer
means heath. It may mean any of the following:

   - Upland vegetation in its broadest sense: unimproved upland grassland,
   drier blanket bogs (covered by heather), Racometrium heath, Bilberry
   dominated heath, Shrubby vegetation dominated by brooms (at least in France
   & Spain), and no doubt a few others I've missed.
   - Moorland in Britain, which is probably a slightly smaller subset of
   the above
   - Lowland heathland: places like the Surrey Heaths, Suffolk Sandlings,
   Norfolk Brecks etc.
   - Other less obvious lowland areas known as heaths: particularly with
   large swathes of bracken and patches of birch.

When this thread first started I thought we could work to remove these
multiple meanings, but having seen what places with natural=heath from
Corine imported-data in the Cevennes,  suspect that this is an unrealistic
objective.

The alternatives are to start sub-typing natural=heath, with heath or
heath:type. The main category to identify in the short-term are the classic
lowland heaths which are scarce & threatened in the UK.

Wikipedia has a partial tabulation

of the formal heath categories in the National Vegetation Classification,
which may help as background reading. I'm sure that pretty much all
communities in the U-group (calcifugous grassland & montane), several Mires
(e.g., M15 & M16), and even some calcicolous upland grasslands are included
in current natural=heath.

At a more practical level the JNCC Phase 1

guide recognises 6 heath categories, of which 4 are relatively common: wet
& dry heaths, and their respective mosaics with grassland. Anything where
the peat depth in the soil is NOT regarded as a heath, but will be a Mire
community (pennine moorland will be largely blanket bog in this
terminology).

Both NVC  & Phase1
 have
relevant pages on the wiki for (slightly) further info. NVC is clearly far
too technical for just about everyone, but Phase1 is probably usable with a
small bit of guidance.

Probably the best way to take this forward is to compile good examples of
places people are likely to know (particularly in National Parks) which
have a known classification AND a reasonable number of usable images on
Geograph. Wales is the easiest place to do this because the whole of the
country was mapped using Phase1.

Regards,

Jerry




On 25 September 2017 at 12:28, ael  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 10:10:07AM +, SK53 wrote:
> > than anything they reflect that OSM as a project lacks good tags for many
> > of these boreo-temperate upland features, and whilst that is true there
>
> I have been changing some "heath" areas of Dartmoor to "moor". But I
> notice that the wiki claims that this is deprecated.
>
> Since most of these are large areas which really cover a variety of
> vegetation, I can't see that any of the "established" tags are really
> appropriate. "Moor" is exactly right.
>
> If forced to use the documentated tags, I would go for
> natural = grassland;wetland as the best approximation despite the
> fact that not everything is wet nor is grass.
>
> Of course, it only makes sense for coarse-grained approximate mapping,
> and more localised accurate tags are the ideal.
>
> Should "moor" or something similar be restored and supported by
> renderers?
>
> ael
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[Colin Spiller]

Sounds sensible to me but I'm no expert. We have lots of moor here in Yorkshire
Colin

⁣Sent from TypeApp ​

On 25 Sep 2017, 12:31, at 12:31, ael  wrote:
>On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 10:10:07AM +, SK53 wrote:
>> than anything they reflect that OSM as a project lacks good tags for
>many
>> of these boreo-temperate upland features, and whilst that is true
>there
>
>I have been changing some "heath" areas of Dartmoor to "moor". But I
>notice that the wiki claims that this is deprecated.
>
>Since most of these are large areas which really cover a variety of
>vegetation, I can't see that any of the "established" tags are really
>appropriate. "Moor" is exactly right.
>
>If forced to use the documentated tags, I would go for
>natural = grassland;wetland as the best approximation despite the
>fact that not everything is wet nor is grass.
>
>Of course, it only makes sense for coarse-grained approximate mapping,
>and more localised accurate tags are the ideal.
>
>Should "moor" or something similar be restored and supported by
>renderers?
>
>ael
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 25.09.2017 13:48, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
> line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

Yes. Don't.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 25 September 2017 at 13:21, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
>> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>
> Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>
> But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
> openstreetmap-carto.

Yes, to re-iterate: my question is about things we can do now. Vector
tiles are on the horizon, but are likely to take a year or more from
now. Changing some of the labels is something we could do with one
line of code and roll out tomorrow, if we wanted to.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
> > this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.
>
> Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.
>
> But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet
> of openstreetmap-carto.

Note however rendering OSM-Carto without labels and producing a separate 
client side rendered labeling would be a possible approach.

Vector tiles is a buzzword occasionally suggested as a solution to any 
and all problems in map rendering but so far i have not seen any 
practical proposal for a client rendered vector tiles concept that 
would be able to serve the mapper feedback purposes of the current OSM 
standard style.  Rory's port of OSM-Carto to vector tiles is not 
suitable for client side rendering.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Talk-GB] Large swaths of "heath" on Dartmoor

[ael]

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 10:10:07AM +, SK53 wrote:
> than anything they reflect that OSM as a project lacks good tags for many
> of these boreo-temperate upland features, and whilst that is true there

I have been changing some "heath" areas of Dartmoor to "moor". But I
notice that the wiki claims that this is deprecated.

Since most of these are large areas which really cover a variety of 
vegetation, I can't see that any of the "established" tags are really
appropriate. "Moor" is exactly right. 

If forced to use the documentated tags, I would go for
natural = grassland;wetland as the best approximation despite the 
fact that not everything is wet nor is grass.

Of course, it only makes sense for coarse-grained approximate mapping,
and more localised accurate tags are the ideal.

Should "moor" or something similar be restored and supported by
renderers?

ael

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Richard Fairhurst]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve 
> this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.

Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/General-Discussion-f5171242.html

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[talk-au] Reminder: West End Mapping Party Is this weekend!

[David Dean]

Hi everyone. Don't forget that our West End Mapping Party is on Saturday! I 
hope to see you there!


** Reminder: West End Mapping party is this weekend!

Hi OSM,

I hope you are excited about our Mapping Event that is coming up this weekend. 
We will be mapping West End on Saturday afternoon, and it'll be a moderate 
amount of fun.

Details below, please register at 
http://openstreetmap.us16.list-manage.com/track/click?u=f9d4c3db0d039ad4bed7a1489=a27c637dac=a657d4157e.

I hope to see you there, and please pass this message onto anyone who you think 
might be interested. Everyone is welcome!


** Where:

Hope St Cafe, 170 Boundary St, West End 
(http://openstreetmap.us16.list-manage.com/track/click?u=f9d4c3db0d039ad4bed7a1489=274034071b=a657d4157e)



** The Plan:

Saturday 30th September 2017

13:30 - 14:30: Meet up over coffee, chat about maps

14:30 - 17:00: Split up and map West End

Please feel free to call David on 0407 151 912 on the day if you can't find us.


** About OpenStreetMap

OpenStreetMap is a collaboratively built free map of the world, with simple 
wiki-like editing; think ‘Wikipedia’, but for maps. The result is highly 
detailed digital maps, created and edited by local communities, that are free 
to reproduce without the normal commercial restrictions. It's a fun project to 
get involved with; you'll discover how maps are made and uncover the 
geographical secrets of your neighbourhood.

Volunteers from all around Brisbane have already begun mapping the roads, 
footpaths and cycleways across the city, but now we need your help to improve 
our map by adding street and building details and amenities such as 
restaurants, parks, playgrounds and shops.


** The Event

Participants will be welcome to map however and wherever they want, but here 
are a few suggestions for things that other mappers like to collect:

Missing streets, footpaths and cycleways Missing street names Missing building 
details Missing street facilities (traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, speed 
bumps, etc.) Missing reserves, parks, schools and child-care centres Missing 
amenities (water fountains, toilets, playgrounds, seats, shelters, etc.) 
Details of shops/restaurants/pubs

However, if you aren't sure what you can do, we'll be happy to provide ideas 
and help get you started. If you have a GPS device, including a GPS-enabled 
phone, bring it along, but you don’t need anything special to map - just a pen 
and paper will do. Blank maps for note-taking can easily be made available if 
prior notice is provided.


You are receiving this email because you have corresponded with me about 
OpenStreetMap in Brisbane.

Want to change how you receive these emails?
You can ** update your preferences 
(http://openstreetmap.us16.list-manage.com/profile?u=f9d4c3db0d039ad4bed7a1489=9d8b5f8071=a657d4157e)
or ** unsubscribe from this list 
(http://openstreetmap.us16.list-manage1.com/unsubscribe?u=f9d4c3db0d039ad4bed7a1489=9d8b5f8071=a657d4157e=9e73124f9c)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Maarten Deen]

Of course this is impractical in the UI in the current way of selecting 
layers (where each layer has its own check box to enable it), I was more 
thinking in the line of having a dropdown box for all language overlays. 
No idea if this is currently possible in openlayers.


Maarten


On 2017-09-25 12:37, Jo wrote:

1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages
in existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra
layers is not a practical endeavour.

2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :


I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which
might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for
non-japanese words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the
default on a Latin based list(letters not language).I'm sure there
would be a different opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other
list(non-latin)

Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere,
Japanese everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc

On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev"
 wrote:
On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label
موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]

Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google
translator and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum [1]

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria [2]

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania [3]

Best regards,

Oleksiy

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Links:
--
[1] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
[2] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
[3] https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
[4] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Warin]

On 25-Sep-17 07:49 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
read. Which, I assume, everyone does.

Yes, of course - we need to clearly differentiate between 'i want a map
that...' and 'i want the standard OSM map to...'.

I also do need a map with names i can read everywhere on earth in many
cases but as you already said this need is mostly quite well served by
both commercial and non-commercial styles from local communities (like
the German OSM style).


I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that
by only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin
script but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to
include a Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even
use Latin renderings altogether for "name". A future option of
"display the name you like" will also free these mappers to map the
correct local names.

Yes, the problem that mappers need to decide on a single name for 'the
local name' is definitely an issue, in particular in regions that are
largely multilingual (i.e. where several language have a strong base
and there is no clear primary language) but also if locals specifically
want to serve outside interests.  The way this is currently often
solved by having several names in the name tag is not satisfying.


Case: Papua New Guinea

Number of Local Languages: 800

Official Language: English

The 'local name' may well not match the 'English language' name - leading to 
OSMose error indications.
Of course the local languages overlap area wise, things change names depending 
on who you might talk to and where...

So at the moment I'm inclined to tag thus;

name and name:en as the same ... not nice but officially that is what it is.
BUT use loc_name as the local language name ...
The boundary between 2 languages is fuzzy and changes with time as villages 
move from time to time too.

There is very high probability that the local language has no official 
abbreviated code like en, ru etc. making that less than helpful.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev :

> The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of science,
> and it remains the language of scientific classification. For example,
> Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.
>


Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern languages,
which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin there will be
no doubt about which preference is given (European culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage besides
adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Jo :

> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
> not a practical endeavour.
>


maybe there are that many languages in the world, but there isn't
information in all of these languages available in OSM. Anyway, even with
much fewer languages this scale nicely with raster tiles for every
language, but it would work with vector tiles (rendered on the client) or
with a mixture of both (vector tiles only for the names, or some names like
places and countries).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

Vector based rendering is just around the corner, I keep hearing.

2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 James :

> That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG
> itself
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:
>
>> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
>> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
>> not a practical endeavour.
>>
>> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>>
>>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which
>>> might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese
>>> words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin
>>> based list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different
>>> opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>>
>>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
>>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا
> for
> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>
> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>

 Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
 non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
 also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria

 https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

 Best regards,

 Oleksiy


 ___
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 talk@openstreetmap.org
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>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[James]

That's why you could have text rendered via JavaScript and not in the JPG
itself

On Sep 25, 2017 6:37 AM, "Jo"  wrote:

> 1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
> existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
> not a practical endeavour.
>
> 2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :
>
>> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
>> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
>> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
>> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
>> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>>
>> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
>> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>>
 [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
 Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

 The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
 (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
 Latin-alphabet). [...]

>>>
>>> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
>>> non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
>>> also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>>>
>>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Oleksiy
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

I talked at a conference to a man from UK who, as I understood, 
participates in the hardware work on the OSM servers. I was told that 
multiple layers require too much additional work to be handled by 
volunteers and also additional hardware That it is not 
feasible with the current state of technology.


The intent is not to replace the titles in Japanese, but to add 
additional labels in smaller font in the Latin alphabet. The Latin 
language itself has been for centuries the language of science, and it 
remains the language of scientific classification. For example, Isaac 
Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.


So why not using it for geographical classification too? As soon as 
people see that the Latin version appears on the map as an additional 
label, they will start adding tags in this language. And there will be 
no doubts that a preference is given to a certain country or group of 
countries.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 9/25/2017 12:15 PM, James wrote:
I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which 
might not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for 
non-japanese words. It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the 
default on a Latin based list(letters not language).I'm sure there 
would be a different opinion if you asked on talk-jp or any other 
list(non-latin)


Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, 
Japanese everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc


On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
> wrote:


On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label
موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]


Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google
translator and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania


Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

1000 - 7000 extra layers? That's give or take the number of languages in
existence... depending on who you ask, but even adding 500 extra layers is
not a practical endeavour.

2017-09-25 12:15 GMT+02:00 James :

> I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
> not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
> It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
> list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
> you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)
>
> Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
> everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>>
>>> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>>
>>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>>> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>>>
>>
>> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to
>> non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and
>> also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>>
>> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Oleksiy
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

For the default map having local names everywhere is a strong statement.
The current status is fine (where scripts for the language are supported by
the fonts used in rendering).

Having transliterated / localized versions should only be an optional, if
ressources allow for it. Mixed versions (showing 2 name versions of the
same thing, eg. in different script) aren't a perfect solution either,
because they tend to clutter the map with things you don't need (one of the
2 displayed versions is always superfluous). This is particularly evident
in areas like China, where the local names are usually 2-3 characters
(signs) and the transliterated ones are often 5-10 times as much (e.g.
administrative divisions).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[James]

I think Latin as default is disrespectful to areas like Japan which might
not be able to read Latin letters as they have kana for non-japanese words.
It's a bit biased to ask if Latin should be the default on a Latin based
list(letters not language).I'm sure there would be a different opinion if
you asked on talk-jp or any other list(non-latin)

Ideally it should be a layer per language: English everywhere, Japanese
everywhere, Arabic everywhere, etc etc

On Sep 25, 2017 6:02 AM, "Oleksiy Muzalyev" 
wrote:

> On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>
>> [...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>
>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>> Latin-alphabet). [...]
>>
>
> Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to non-Latin
> alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator and also in
> Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria
>
> https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania
>
> Best regards,
>
> Oleksiy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

On 9/24/2017 11:01 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

[...]For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). [...]


Why not use the Latin language itself for an additional label to 
non-Latin alphabet titles? It is readily available in Google translator 
and also in Wikipedia. Here are these titles in Latin:


https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pechinum

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungaria

https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritania

Best regards,

Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
> indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
> read. Which, I assume, everyone does.

Yes, of course - we need to clearly differentiate between 'i want a map 
that...' and 'i want the standard OSM map to...'.

I also do need a map with names i can read everywhere on earth in many 
cases but as you already said this need is mostly quite well served by 
both commercial and non-commercial styles from local communities (like 
the German OSM style).

> I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that
> by only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin
> script but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to
> include a Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even
> use Latin renderings altogether for "name". A future option of
> "display the name you like" will also free these mappers to map the
> correct local names.

Yes, the problem that mappers need to decide on a single name for 'the 
local name' is definitely an issue, in particular in regions that are 
largely multilingual (i.e. where several language have a strong base 
and there is no clear primary language) but also if locals specifically 
want to serve outside interests.  The way this is currently often 
solved by having several names in the name tag is not satisfying.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-25 9:37 GMT+02:00 Frederik Ramm :

> ideally I
> want a map with local names except where I can't read them ;)
>
>
>

+1.

And ideally I'd want a map that not only shows cities or countries with
transliterated names where needed, but everything (especially POIs like
historical things, museums, places of worship, mountains, rivers, etc.
which are famous enough to have a name in German or English), while for
roads, public transport etc. it is also nice to be able to see the original
name (because you can recognize it on signs, or show it to local people
when asking about them, etc.).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Christoph,

On 25.09.2017 10:55, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>> Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from
>> Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names;
>> ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them
>> ;)
> 
> While i understand this view and also see you are saying this with a bit 
> of irony it seriously saddens me that apparently a large fraction of 
> the OSM community actually thinks this way and wants the OSMF to invest 
> ressources in a map that is well readable for them rather than a map 
> that represents and communicates the diversity of the global OSM 
> community.

Oh, in case I wasn't clear - what I said above was not with irony;
indeed, for my personal use, I want a map that shows me names I can
read. Which, I assume, everyone does. But I didn't want to imply that
the OSM web site should be doing that (especially since I'm not its only
 user); I think the OSM web site should continue to use local names
throughout while we technically have to choose a name, and somewhere
down the line the web site should give users a choice which names they
would like to see.

I share your "diversity" viewpoint, although one must also see that by
only displaying the "name", some people in regions with non-latin script
but strong western cultural influence could feel forced to include a
Latin rendering of the name in their "name" tags or even use Latin
renderings altogether for "name". A future option of "display the name
you like" will also free these mappers to map the correct local names.

Bye
Frederik


-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Christoph Hormann]

On Monday 25 September 2017, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from
> Germany and I don't want a map with all German or all English names;
> ideally I want a map with local names except where I can't read them
> ;)

While i understand this view and also see you are saying this with a bit 
of irony it seriously saddens me that apparently a large fraction of 
the OSM community actually thinks this way and wants the OSMF to invest 
ressources in a map that is well readable for them rather than a map 
that represents and communicates the diversity of the global OSM 
community.

I would want the map to display in a way that is well readable and gives 
good feedback to the *local mappers* everywhere on earth and that gives 
me an impression of the local cultural and geographic particularities 
of the area irrespective of if i can read the names or not.  I would 
want this by default even if technology also offered a 'filter bubble' 
version that shows me the map as i allegedly would want it to see where 
every place on earth looks like my home town.

I also want to cite from the current goals of OSM-Carto:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CARTOGRAPHY.md

"Diversity - The style should represent the diversity of the OSM 
community and geography in general. The most obvious element to serve 
this goal is showing the local names everywhere on earth in their 
respective scripts. This goal however goes beyond labels. Both physical 
and cultural geography differs a lot globally and the aim is to 
represent this variety with equal determination - well mapped areas are 
not supposed to have more weight here than less mapped parts of the 
world. This also means the target map user is the potential global map 
user and no special consideration is given to the current geographic 
distribution of actual map use."

Changing that would mean aiming the map more at the same target as 
commercial map providers, i.e. serving the economically important and 
influential map user groups, giving them what market research tells you 
they want and giving up on the core of what makes the OSM standard 
style unique and forms a significant part of what attracts people to 
OSM.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Talk-se] Ändra linknummer på E-vägar

[Martin Norbäck Olivers]

Poängen med att data finns i OSM är att olika verktyg då kan hämta data
därifrån utan att behöva känna till alla andra databaser som finns runt om
i världen. Vad gäller just denna fråga så är det ju själva taggningen av
vägnummer som diskuteras, vilket är något som du också menar borde finnas i
OSM, så jag förstår inte riktigt poängen med ditt inlägg som svar på det.

Hälsningar Martin

Den 25 september 2017 09:54 skrev Mats Elfström :

> Hej!
> För all vägrelaterad information rekommenderas ett studium av
> trafikverkets nationella vägdatabas, NVDB, som är öppna data.
> Den finns både som nedladdningsbar geodata, eller som wms-tjänst.
> Och man får anse den som den bästa offentligt tillgängliga
> väginformationen som finns, eftersom den underhålls kontinuerligt. Därmed
> sagt att den som kopierar data därifrån till OSM, även åtar sig att hålla
> den rimligt uppdaterad. Och, eftersom pålitlig vägdata numera är öppen,
> behöver den finnas i OSM? Vägnummer och gatunamn kan behövas, men knappast
> mer tänker jag.
>
> Hälsning / Regards
> Mats.E
>
> Skickat från min / Sent from my iPad, Ursäkta att jag är kortfattad /
> Excuse my brevity.
>
> > 25 sep. 2017 kl. 09:35 skrev talk-se-requ...@openstreetmap.org:
> >
> > Ändra linknummer på E-vägar
>
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Telefon: +46 703 22 70 12
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Re: [Talk-se] Ändra linknummer på E-vägar

[Mats Elfström]

Hej!
För all vägrelaterad information rekommenderas ett studium av trafikverkets 
nationella vägdatabas, NVDB, som är öppna data.
Den finns både som nedladdningsbar geodata, eller som wms-tjänst.
Och man får anse den som den bästa offentligt tillgängliga väginformationen som 
finns, eftersom den underhålls kontinuerligt. Därmed sagt att den som kopierar 
data därifrån till OSM, även åtar sig att hålla den rimligt uppdaterad. Och, 
eftersom pålitlig vägdata numera är öppen, behöver den finnas i OSM? Vägnummer 
och gatunamn kan behövas, men knappast mer tänker jag.

Hälsning / Regards
Mats.E

Skickat från min / Sent from my iPad, Ursäkta att jag är kortfattad / Excuse my 
brevity. 

> 25 sep. 2017 kl. 09:35 skrev talk-se-requ...@openstreetmap.org:
> 
> Ändra linknummer på E-vägar

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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 24.09.2017 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
> preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
> language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
> pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
> addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
> many people.

If you want to go down this route, definitely talk to Sven Geggus, maker
of the openstreetmap.de map style
(https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html) which not only displays local
an German names but also makes an effort to automatically transliterate
local names to the Latin alphabet where none is explicitly tagged. You'd
want to implement something similar.

Also note how very letter-heavy such maps can become (look at the names
of the Polish voivodeships which are *already* long and now they're
double - but I see you're only suggesting city and country names so
perhaps you have already seen that the admin 4 entities can be difficult).

But speaking of pragmatism - if I need to decipher something in China I
just use the layer switcher to show Andy's OpenCycleMap and that's good
enough for me.

> Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
> something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
> significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
> now.

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve this
goal, even if it's a year or two in the future. Whatever changes you
will be making then will not come without a downside. Saying "we know
these changes do have some issues but they will enable us to finally
display the map in any language you want" will help you sweeten the deal
then.

Also, personally I'm in a similar situation to Maarten. I'm from Germany
and I don't want a map with all German or all English names; ideally I
want a map with local names except where I can't read them ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Talk-se] Ändra linknummer på E-vägar

[David Olsson]

Lekmanna-miss av mig. Jag syftar såklart på vägnumret och vad som finns i
ref-taggen. Och förstår jag allt rätt så ska "ref" vara i princip det som
står på skylten. (E4 i detta fall).
Så ändra ref : E 4.26 till enbart ref: E 4 och sedan lägga till en
"official_ref : E 4.26" tycks vara den bästa lösningen, likt 1ec5 nämnde i
kommentaren på github.

Ber om ursäkt för missen, jag som tyckte E4 är namnet på vägen när det
egentligen är numret.

/David

On 24 Sep 2017 20:12, "Andreas Vilén"  wrote:

> Skilj på namn och nummer. De här vägarna har dessa som officiella nummer.
> De skyltas vad jag vet inte men används mer och mer i media. Däremot har de
> ofta helt andra namn eller inga namn alls. Namnen kan också ändras medan
> numret är detsamma.
>
> /Andreas
>
> Skickat från min iPhone
>
> 24 sep. 2017 kl. 19:00 skrev Martin Norbäck Olivers :
>
> Ofta märks väl dessa ut med streckad ram runt numret (E4 i det här fallet)?
>
> Vet inte hur man ska tagga det, men official_ref för E 4.26 låter väl bra
> iaf
>
> sön 24 sep. 2017 kl. 18:52 skrev David Olsson :
>
>> Finns många E-vägar som har linknummer (som t.ex E 4.26)
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/76169023
>>
>> Det blir ett problem med osrm. Minh nämnde att det var bra att börja i
>> mailinglistan.
>> https://github.com/mapbox/mapbox-navigation-ios/issues/637#
>> issuecomment-331589408
>>
>> Undernumret är det riktiga namnet på vägen hos nvdb/trafikverket och det
>> tycks aldrig vara använt. Någon som vet fall där det används på skyltar?
>>
>> Annars låter det som ett korrekt projekt att tagga om så linknummer inte
>> ligger med "ref" iom det inte används (se github-länken). Eller har andra
>> några andra synpunkter kring det?
>>
>> /david
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> IT-konsult, Masara AB
> Telefon: +46 703 22 70 12
> E-post: mar...@norpan.org
> Kärrhöksvägen 4
> 656 72 Skattkärr
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Yuri Astrakhan]

>
> And vice versa: I always wonder how usable a map in Latin alphabet is for
> Chinese or Russian speakers.


Cannot speak for Chinese, but in Russia, Latin alphabet was taught at the
very early age in school. I think that drawing a map with local names in
Latin font should not cause too many problems.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Maarten Deen]

On 2017-09-24 23:01, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Hi all,

I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
the Default map on openstreetmap.org.

This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.

The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
(additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:


And vice versa: I always wonder how usable a map in Latin alphabet is 
for Chinese or Russian speakers.



From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local


No, of course there should not be a "we're going to do all latin" move. 
But having the map like this and saying "we only put local alphabet on 
the map" is just as much an ideologic viewpoint. You are excluding 
people who do not know the alphabet from using the map.
I for one have long been annoyed by the inability for me to find places 
in countries such as China, Russia, Japan, Korea, Thailand and others 
I'm not remembering. Sure, I can use nominatim and the place will be 
pointed out to me but then I can not read at all what it says. I think 
that in all these years of OSM this could and should have been picked up 
and discussed long ago, but apparently everyone in control of the map 
seems to have the opinion of "local language or bust".


But the issue is also not that simple. I, as a dutch person, do not want 
to see all places in their Dutch translation. There are translations 
ranging from quite common to very obscure that I'm sure are in OSM but 
that I generally do not want to see (Maagdenburg, Brunswijk, Daveren). I 
also do not want the English translations, I'm also not keen on seeing 
names like Brussels or Munich.
So the option would be to give maps in different alphabets and not have 
the names translated. Then again, what is the "non-translated name" of 
Russian or Chinese cities. Is it the English name? Does every place have 
a proper transliterated name?


I think the technical solution is easy: like Eduardo says, make a map 
with a base layer as the map and and overlay with place names.


But to put this point out: for me, Google does it much better than OSM.

Maarten



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Jo]

The purpose of the default rendering is to give feedback to mappers.
Preferably local mappers, so having the map rendered in local languages
shouldn't be a problem.

If you want to use OSM data as a tourist use OsmAND or MAPS.ME and set a
language of your choice.

If other projects need tiles for their own purposes/user base, they should
render them to their liking and make them available.

Jo

2017-09-25 7:56 GMT+02:00 Edoardo Yossef Marascalchi <
e.marascal...@gmail.com>:

> my 2 cents:
> having a 2 layers map, one with local languages rendered, the second with
> english ones when present as first choice, then local when not
>
> Il 25 set 2017 7:14 AM, "Yves"  ha scritto:
>
>> If the OSMF tile servers were to be used to provide webmaps for a vast
>> audience, I would understand double labeling in English.
>> That not the primary purpose, though.
>> Yves
>>
>> Le 24 septembre 2017 23:01:00 GMT+02:00, Matthijs Melissen <
>> i...@matthijsmelissen.nl> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
>>> the Default map on openstreetmap.org.
>>>
>>> This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
>>> all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
>>> For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>>
>>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>>> Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
>>> is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
>>> people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
>>> Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:
>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330782700
>>> A prominent case of such a request is from the Gnome Maps team, who
>>> decided not to use the Default style for this reason:
>>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764841#c35
>>>
>>> From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
>>> preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
>>> language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
>>> pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
>>> addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
>>> many people.
>>>
>>> I would be interested to know what others think about this. An option,
>>> for example, would be to display countries names, and perhaps the
>>> names of big cities, in English as well as in the local language.
>>>
>>> Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
>>> something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
>>> significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
>>> now.
>>>
>>> More information on this issue can be found on Github:
>>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803
>>>
>>> I'm looking forward to your opinions.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Matthijs Melissen
>>>
>>> --
>>>
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>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[Edoardo Yossef Marascalchi]

my 2 cents:
having a 2 layers map, one with local languages rendered, the second with
english ones when present as first choice, then local when not

Il 25 set 2017 7:14 AM, "Yves"  ha scritto:

> If the OSMF tile servers were to be used to provide webmaps for a vast
> audience, I would understand double labeling in English.
> That not the primary purpose, though.
> Yves
>
> Le 24 septembre 2017 23:01:00 GMT+02:00, Matthijs Melissen <
> i...@matthijsmelissen.nl> a écrit :
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I would like to ask for your opinion on the choice of language used in
>> the Default map on openstreetmap.org.
>>
>> This map (based on the openstreetmap-carto style) currently displays
>> all labels in their native language (as defined in the 'name' tag).
>> For example, we have a label 北京市 for Beijing, a label موريتانيا for
>> Mauritania, and a label Magyarország for Hungary.
>>
>> The openstreetmap-carto team quite frequently receives requests to
>> (additionally) display labels in English (or in any case the
>> Latin-alphabet). The people making these requests state that the map
>> is currently not very usable for an international audience, as many
>> people are not able to read labels in for example Arabic or Mandarin.
>> Some areas where this problem is particularly visible:
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803#issuecomment-330782700
>> A prominent case of such a request is from the Gnome Maps team, who
>> decided not to use the Default style for this reason:
>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764841#c35
>>
>> From an ideologic viewpoint, I am very much in favour of not giving
>> preferential treatment to any particular language. Using the local
>> language seems fair in this respect. On the other hand, from a
>> pragmatic point of view I can also see that using English (in
>> addition) would significantly increase the usefulness of the map to
>> many people.
>>
>> I would be interested to know what others think about this. An option,
>> for example, would be to display countries names, and perhaps the
>> names of big cities, in English as well as in the local language.
>>
>> Note: making the map available in multiple language versions is
>> something we like to do in the future, however, this requires quite
>> significant technical changes. Therefore, this is out of scope for
>> now.
>>
>> More information on this issue can be found on Github:
>> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/803
>>
>> I'm looking forward to your opinions.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Matthijs Melissen
>>
>> --
>>
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
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