RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Shut it Rob. This situation is self-correcting. ;-) -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 January 2008 08:31 To: Thomas D. Cox, Jr.; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Get a room you ninnies Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 January 2008 01:34 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of On Jan 11, 2008 6:58 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: good one Tom, I hope you win it would be one more win than you've had in your entire life. tommm # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
This is way too complex to talk about on 313 though. I can well understand where you're coming from in saying this David, given the behaviour of a special few people around here, but I don't agree that anything's out of bounds for discussion because it's too complex. I think we're all well capable of keeping up! Ken
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
I liked this place better when Brogan and Uberbalisubramanian used to duke it out. On Jan 11, 2008 8:45 PM, JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there's no sense arguing nonsensical points, we got suckered On Jan 11, 2008 8:34 PM, Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008 6:58 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: good one Tom, I hope you win it would be one more win than you've had in your entire life. tommm
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Get a room you ninnies Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 January 2008 01:34 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of On Jan 11, 2008 6:58 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: good one Tom, I hope you win it would be one more win than you've had in your entire life. tommm # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
seems you agree with /0 then. for what it's worth, i view the classical-techno crossover thing with some suspicion and i find the results a tad amusing, like a novelty or a gimmick. i get the idea that the techno musician is trying to buy some respectability by interfacing with classical instruments and musicians. (this is obviously just my opinion so i'm not trying to push it as fact) my 2 eurocent fab - Original Message - Da : JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Thu, 10 Jan 2008 20:24:46 -0500 the heartfelt rationale is utter dinosaur bs, pretty much exactly mirroring the elitist anti-pop music pseudo-intellectual music criticism of adorno and horkheimer during the 1940's. anybody heard of jay greenberg? he's a child prodigy who entered Juilliard at age 11, and if you haven't heard of him, you should remember his name. his instructor at Julliard said of him on 60 minutes, We are talking about a prodigy of the level of the greatest prodigies in history, when it comes to composition. I am talking about the likes of Mozart, and Mendelssohn, and Saint-Saëns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Greenberg he went to elementary school (very briefly) in chapel hill , nc, where my best friend had the pleasure of teaching him. we hooked him up with cubase, and burned him cd's of stuff like dmay, c2, john beltran, detroit escalator, etc. he didn't fall in love with it, but he took a serious interest in techno, synthetic sounds, and he makes all his music using cubase -- it is only later performed by orchestras. that's good enough proof for me. this is beside the point that classical music is not typically rhythmically complex to begin with, so the comparison to 4/4 16 step quantizing is totally off the mark to begin with. at one point some classical students from duke were invited to one of my music theory classes at unc, and they were all blending classical music with modern production techniques, sampling, dance rhythms, polyrhythms, etc. i can't say i liked any of what i heard that day though On Jan 10, 2008 7:52 PM, The Archiver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do you need to Troll? This list like most mailing lists has its Highs and Lows , all you are doing is contributing to the Lows...
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
I'll give it a whirl Rob :) -Original Message- From: Robert Taylor [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 12:47 To: Odeluga, Ken; kent williams; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of How about a filter where you see something you don't like and click on the big X at the top of the page? Easy peasy! Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 12:38 To: kent williams; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of It's just a waste of time for the rest of us as some people in this thread are actually writing about music. Maybe I could set up some sort of filter, but I'm reluctant as more than just occasionally one or both of these guys have something to say which isn't 'you mama'. I think you should be more pro-active Kent! :) -Original Message- From: kent williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 00:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Well the archives are in kind of a parlous state. I set up archiving to mail-archive.com, but they didn't end up pulling in the archives before sometime mid-2006, so if you want to search prior to that, you have to go to the raw mbox files on hyperreal.org I'd normally be concerned about ad hominem attacks on 313, but between /0 and tomcox, they seem to enjoy goading each other so much that it would be a shame to step in. On Jan 10, 2008 5:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_5mp4Ghmgfeature=related it's 2008 now right? prize the first one who can find in the archives when this playpen fight started MEK Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:32:35 PM: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:30:48 PM: # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
please help me dispel my pre-conceived notions by suggesting some techno-classical cross-over stuff that you find good and not gimmicky. in other words, please school me. ffs, i have no idea, i don't even know of anything besides the jeff mills thing and the c2 thing and i haven't heard either. otherwise it's pretty obvious that lots of the strings in techno could just as easily be in classical music, and you have stuff like john beltran...so why not welcome the crossover? cross-polination of musical styles is what brings about new styles and moves music forward. to get outside the techno bubble, and look at dance music/black music vs classical, well..jazz and most of the music of the 20th century. techno is the descendant of a classical clash already. i was referring to a techno-classical crossover, and not cross-pollination in general. and that would have been quite foolish since techno is not a pure genre in anycase. i'm sorry but i dont get the last paragraph quoted above though. what do you mean by dance music/black music vs classical? f.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
i don't see it as cross-pollination, but rather classical dudes playing contemporary music, possibly to get in touch with the younger masses, to show that you can be hip even for a classical dude, or something along those lines... anyway, i will check this new C2 stuff out and (like george michael said) will listen without prejudice have a nice weekend, i'm flying off to frankfurt for party. ciao f. - Original Message - Da : JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:35:26 -0500 i was referring to a techno-classical crossover, and not cross-pollination in general. and that would have been quite foolish since techno is not a pure genre in anycase. eh? if you recognize cross-pollination is good, then why not a techno-classical crossover? i'm sorry but i dont get the last paragraph quoted above though. what do you mean by dance music/black music vs classical? jazz was the result of black dance music crossed with essentially classical instrumentation.
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
yeah of course, and at that time particular time, I feel that it was very much Old World vs New World. -Original Message- From: JT Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 15:44 To: robin Cc: 313 313 Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of essentially i agree, although i don't think it had anything to do with technology in particular, but the modernization of culture and communication..which was partially the result of technology, but also just the direction of popular taste and social/cultural identity etc... i spent wayyy too much time reading that stuff in college... but a lot of it seems to be the writings of a man desparately trying to cling onto something that was fast disappearing whilst technology washed over him like a huge wave. For all the latest news and comment visit www.telegraph.co.uk. This message, its contents and any attachments to it are private, confidential and may be the subject of legal privilege. Any unauthorised disclosure, use or dissemination of the whole or part of this message (without our prior written consent) is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately. Incoming and outgoing telephone calls to our offices may be monitored or recorded for training and quality control purposes and for confirming orders and information. Telegraph Media Group Limited is a limited liability company registered in England and Wales (company number 451593). Our registered office address is: 111 Buckingham Palace Road, London, SW1W 0DT.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On 11 Jan 2008, at 15:06, JT Stewart wrote: adorno and horkheimer published most of their stuff in the 40's. Got ya... m
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
sorry, i was a media production major and had to study him extensively... his views on music are considered a bit fascist (although he himself ran from the nazi's), he had an absolute hatred for anything that was not high-culture, which of course included the whole of black culture. here's the relevant bit from his wikipedia page In 1936, the Zeitschrift featured one of Adorno's most controversial texts, On Jazz (Über Jazz). It should be noted that jazz was frequently used to refer to all popular music at the time of Adorno's writing. This article was less an engagement with this style of music than a first polemic against the blooming entertainment and culture industry. Adorno believed the culture industry was a system by which society was controlled though a top-down creation of standardized culture that intensified the commodification of artistic expression. Extensive correspondence with Horkheimer, who was then living in exile in the United States, led to an offer of employment in America. on the surface, you can even slightly agree with it, but his views are absolutely uncompromising, absolutely anti-social, and biased towards his own supposed elite experience with high-brow classical music and academia. On Jan 11, 2008 10:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't. all i know about adorno is that i studied his text books in highschool history of art class i guess wikipedia is my friend though - Original Message - Da : Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : 313 313 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:16:35 + On 11 Jan 2008, at 15:06, JT Stewart wrote: adorno and horkheimer published most of their stuff in the 40's. Got ya... m
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
essentially i agree, although i don't think it had anything to do with technology in particular, but the modernization of culture and communication..which was partially the result of technology, but also just the direction of popular taste and social/cultural identity etc... i spent wayyy too much time reading that stuff in college... but a lot of it seems to be the writings of a man desparately trying to cling onto something that was fast disappearing whilst technology washed over him like a huge wave.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
adorno and horkheimer published most of their stuff in the 40's. On Jan 11, 2008 9:19 AM, Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3. he's mirroring the cultural elitism of widely discredited and criticized prejudiced white guys from the 40's. I don't understand this reference, 40s, prejudice isn't exclusive, is it? Care to explain? m
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
but a lot of it seems to be the writings of a man desparately trying to cling onto something that was fast disappearing whilst technology washed over him like a huge wave. That sounds familiar for some reason :) robin...
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
It's just a waste of time for the rest of us as some people in this thread are actually writing about music. Maybe I could set up some sort of filter, but I'm reluctant as more than just occasionally one or both of these guys have something to say which isn't 'you mama'. I think you should be more pro-active Kent! :) -Original Message- From: kent williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 00:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Well the archives are in kind of a parlous state. I set up archiving to mail-archive.com, but they didn't end up pulling in the archives before sometime mid-2006, so if you want to search prior to that, you have to go to the raw mbox files on hyperreal.org I'd normally be concerned about ad hominem attacks on 313, but between /0 and tomcox, they seem to enjoy goading each other so much that it would be a shame to step in. On Jan 10, 2008 5:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_5mp4Ghmgfeature=related it's 2008 now right? prize the first one who can find in the archives when this playpen fight started MEK Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:32:35 PM: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:30:48 PM:
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
i don't see it as cross-pollination, but rather classical dudes playing contemporary music, possibly to get in touch with the younger masses, to show that you can be hip even for a classical dude, or something along those lines... i can understand that cynicism, but give the music a chance..i thought the same when c2 announced he was doing jazz stuff, but it turned out to be pretty respectable and decent stuff. and anyways, the classical guys who want to be hip are playing with kanye west and jay z and rock bands and stuff..i don't think classical and techno are an obvious match, but they fit...they're both very composed musics... there is classical stuff out there i find pretty contemporary...and just watching yo yo ma will make you break into a sweat, he rocks as hard or harder than any rocker or technodork :P enjoy frankfurt!
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
i don't. all i know about adorno is that i studied his text books in highschool history of art class i guess wikipedia is my friend though - Original Message - Da : Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : 313 313 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:16:35 + On 11 Jan 2008, at 15:06, JT Stewart wrote: adorno and horkheimer published most of their stuff in the 40's. Got ya... m
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
sorry JT, i didn't mean it as an insult... i realize that, but you definitely did not understand what i said or something... please help me dispel my pre-conceived notions by suggesting some techno-classical cross-over stuff that you find good and not gimmicky. in other words, please school me. ffs, i have no idea, i don't even know of anything besides the jeff mills thing and the c2 thing and i haven't heard either. otherwise it's pretty obvious that lots of the strings in techno could just as easily be in classical music, and you have stuff like john beltran...so why not welcome the crossover? cross-polination of musical styles is what brings about new styles and moves music forward. to get outside the techno bubble, and look at dance music/black music vs classical, well..jazz and most of the music of the 20th century. techno is the descendant of a classical clash already. i don't think you were referring to me specifically but i don't find tom a troll but rather far too opinionated for me to engage in any sort of dialectic discourse regarding music. he's just a blowhard. he has more interesting stuff to say than most, and encyclopedic knowledge to make his bs seem believable. jt
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
- Original Message - Da : JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313 313 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:31:23 -0500 Adorno believed the culture industry was a system by which society was controlled though a top-down creation of standardized culture that intensified the commodification of artistic expression. this I can relate to, like you said afterwards on the surface, you can even slightly agree with it, but his views are absolutely uncompromising, absolutely anti-social, and biased towards his own supposed elite experience with high-brow classical music and academia. while this, sounds like someone we know.
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Adorno is pretty hardcore - some of what he writes, with regard to the synthesis of the spirit of music into a commercial product, does hit home I feel, but a lot of it seems to be the writings of a man desparately trying to cling onto something that was fast disappearing whilst technology washed over him like a huge wave. He was writing at a time when many of the great composers of the early 20th century had just passed away or were coming to the end of their lives, and of course the likes of Schoenberg were beginning to make their mark with Serialism, so you can sense his despair, but his perspective just seems, if not dated, just out of place given the state of modern music and its relationship with technology. -Original Message- From: JT Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 15:31 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Martin Dust; 313 313 Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of sorry, i was a media production major and had to study him extensively... his views on music are considered a bit fascist (although he himself ran from the nazi's), he had an absolute hatred for anything that was not high-culture, which of course included the whole of black culture. here's the relevant bit from his wikipedia page In 1936, the Zeitschrift featured one of Adorno's most controversial texts, On Jazz (Über Jazz). It should be noted that jazz was frequently used to refer to all popular music at the time of Adorno's writing. This article was less an engagement with this style of music than a first polemic against the blooming entertainment and culture industry. Adorno believed the culture industry was a system by which society was controlled though a top-down creation of standardized culture that intensified the commodification of artistic expression. Extensive correspondence with Horkheimer, who was then living in exile in the United States, led to an offer of employment in America. on the surface, you can even slightly agree with it, but his views are absolutely uncompromising, absolutely anti-social, and biased towards his own supposed elite experience with high-brow classical music and academia. On Jan 11, 2008 10:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i don't. all i know about adorno is that i studied his text books in highschool history of art class i guess wikipedia is my friend though - Original Message - Da : Martin Dust [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : 313 313 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:16:35 + On 11 Jan 2008, at 15:06, JT Stewart wrote: adorno and horkheimer published most of their stuff in the 40's. Got ya... m For all the latest news and comment visit www.telegraph.co.uk. This message, its contents and any attachments to it are private, confidential and may be the subject of legal privilege. Any unauthorised disclosure, use or dissemination of the whole or part of this message (without our prior written consent) is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately. Incoming and outgoing telephone calls to our offices may be monitored or recorded for training and quality control purposes and for confirming orders and information. Telegraph Media Group Limited is a limited liability company registered in England and Wales (company number 451593). Our registered office address is: 111 Buckingham Palace Road, London, SW1W 0DT.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
3. he's mirroring the cultural elitism of widely discredited and criticized prejudiced white guys from the 40's. I don't understand this reference, 40s, prejudice isn't exclusive, is it? Care to explain? m
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
- Original Message - Da : JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:00:44 -0500 seems you agree with /0 then. wtf? he's saying techno music is far too simple to interest classical musicians, i just pointed out that 1. a modern day mozart provides proof otherwise and 2. techno is more rhythmically complex than classical 3. he's mirroring the cultural elitism of widely discredited and criticized prejudiced white guys from the 40's. sorry JT, i didn't mean it as an insult for what it's worth, i view the classical-techno crossover thing with some suspicion and i find the results a tad amusing, like a novelty or a gimmick. i get the idea that doesn't that apply to any time artists established in one genre step into a pretty different one? has nothing to do with the results, more your pre-conceived notions (this is obviously just my opinion so i'm not trying to push it as fact) yep please help me dispel my pre-conceived notions by suggesting some techno-classical cross-over stuff that you find good and not gimmicky. in other words, please school me. anybody who thinks tom is just another troll should read his musical writings on his blog or check his mixes. he talks a lot of bs but he's pretty good at explaining it and it comes from a seriously intense music lover... i don't think you were referring to me specifically but i don't find tom a troll but rather far too opinionated for me to engage in any sort of dialectic discourse regarding music.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Most of the discussion (and displeasure) seems to be about techno music transposed for a classical orchestra. What about going the other direction? I can't think of specific examples at the moment but I know there are classical pieces that have been interpreted by electronic/techno artists using the tools of their trade. Is this still perceived an attempt to validate electronic music? MEK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/11/2008 09:48:53 AM: i don't see it as cross-pollination, but rather classical dudes playing contemporary music, possibly to get in touch with the younger masses, to show that you can be hip even for a classical dude, or something along those lines... anyway, i will check this new C2 stuff out and (like george michael said) will listen without prejudice have a nice weekend, i'm flying off to frankfurt for party. ciao f. - Original Message - Da : JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:35:26 -0500 i was referring to a techno-classical crossover, and not cross-pollination in general. and that would have been quite foolish since techno is not a pure genre in anycase. eh? if you recognize cross-pollination is good, then why not a techno-classical crossover? i'm sorry but i dont get the last paragraph quoted above though. what do you mean by dance music/black music vs classical? jazz was the result of black dance music crossed with essentially classical instrumentation.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:04 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't think of specific examples at the moment but I know there are classical pieces that have been interpreted by electronic/techno artists using the tools of their trade. William Orbit did that and failed miserably. -- matt kane's brain http://hydrogenproject.com aim - mkbatwerk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
well, screw it then ;-) MEK Matt Kane's Brain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/11/2008 10:10:53 AM: On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:04 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't think of specific examples at the moment but I know there are classical pieces that have been interpreted by electronic/techno artists using the tools of their trade. William Orbit did that and failed miserably. -- matt kane's brain http://hydrogenproject.com aim - mkbatwerk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Well that's been around for years with Wendy Carlos et al if we're talking about electronic music in general. It's a difficult one to call because there are examples, like Carlos or Tomita, where they've reinterpreted pieces with style and subtlety. Funnily enough, some of the truly worst examples have come from Klaus Schulze, who went down a trance/classical route in the 90's and the results are nothing less than horrific, which is surprising given the quality of his material in the 70's. I feel personally that a lot of it is just down to technology more than anything else, and our fascination with it. When options become available, then I feel that it is natural that one explores old genres and reinterprets it. The earliest forms of electronic music, apart from the truly avant-garde, did almost at once, start to recreate old popular classical music, because I guess it was the first time that it could be done. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 16:05 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org; JT Stewart Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Most of the discussion (and displeasure) seems to be about techno music transposed for a classical orchestra. What about going the other direction? I can't think of specific examples at the moment but I know there are classical pieces that have been interpreted by electronic/techno artists using the tools of their trade. Is this still perceived an attempt to validate electronic music? MEK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/11/2008 09:48:53 AM: i don't see it as cross-pollination, but rather classical dudes playing contemporary music, possibly to get in touch with the younger masses, to show that you can be hip even for a classical dude, or something along those lines... anyway, i will check this new C2 stuff out and (like george michael said) will listen without prejudice have a nice weekend, i'm flying off to frankfurt for party. ciao f. - Original Message - Da : JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] A : [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Oggetto : Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Data : Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:35:26 -0500 i was referring to a techno-classical crossover, and not cross-pollination in general. and that would have been quite foolish since techno is not a pure genre in anycase. eh? if you recognize cross-pollination is good, then why not a techno-classical crossover? i'm sorry but i dont get the last paragraph quoted above though. what do you mean by dance music/black music vs classical? jazz was the result of black dance music crossed with essentially classical instrumentation. For all the latest news and comment visit www.telegraph.co.uk. This message, its contents and any attachments to it are private, confidential and may be the subject of legal privilege. Any unauthorised disclosure, use or dissemination of the whole or part of this message (without our prior written consent) is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately. Incoming and outgoing telephone calls to our offices may be monitored or recorded for training and quality control purposes and for confirming orders and information. Telegraph Media Group Limited is a limited liability company registered in England and Wales (company number 451593). Our registered office address is: 111 Buckingham Palace Road, London, SW1W 0DT.
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
How about a filter where you see something you don't like and click on the big X at the top of the page? Easy peasy! Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 12:38 To: kent williams; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of It's just a waste of time for the rest of us as some people in this thread are actually writing about music. Maybe I could set up some sort of filter, but I'm reluctant as more than just occasionally one or both of these guys have something to say which isn't 'you mama'. I think you should be more pro-active Kent! :) -Original Message- From: kent williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 00:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Well the archives are in kind of a parlous state. I set up archiving to mail-archive.com, but they didn't end up pulling in the archives before sometime mid-2006, so if you want to search prior to that, you have to go to the raw mbox files on hyperreal.org I'd normally be concerned about ad hominem attacks on 313, but between /0 and tomcox, they seem to enjoy goading each other so much that it would be a shame to step in. On Jan 10, 2008 5:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_5mp4Ghmgfeature=related it's 2008 now right? prize the first one who can find in the archives when this playpen fight started MEK Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:32:35 PM: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:30:48 PM: # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
i was referring to a techno-classical crossover, and not cross-pollination in general. and that would have been quite foolish since techno is not a pure genre in anycase. eh? if you recognize cross-pollination is good, then why not a techno-classical crossover? i'm sorry but i dont get the last paragraph quoted above though. what do you mean by dance music/black music vs classical? jazz was the result of black dance music crossed with essentially classical instrumentation.
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
For me the tracks I liked the most are Imagine See The Light Sonic Destroyer -Original Message- From: Michael Pujos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 11 January 2008 20:38 Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Toby Frith a écrit : I enjoyed the Blue Potential. It carried an air of ridiculousness that accompanies anything highbrow Mills does - the idea of an orchestra playing some of his harder records was faintly surreal, and there is something a bit daft in the idea that classical musicians interpreting techno music sort of validates it which I often feel is the hidden agenda behind these sorts of exercises, because ultimately classical music and orchestras are seen as the high end of the spectrum, whilst some guy pressing buttons on a drab grey box is seen as the opposite end. Funnily enough, The Bells was the most enjoyable interpretation alongside The March. For me it was definitely Gamma Player the highlight track of Blue Potential.The real strings add much to it. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1219 - Release Date: 11/01/2008 10:19 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1219 - Release Date: 11/01/2008 10:19
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
I think this is a bit unfair. Adorno's thinking is far too complex to be merely discredited. I disagree with many of Adorno's positions (his take on jazz verges on racism), but I still have to say the guy was a complete genius, so that even when he was wrong, he could at the same time be incredibly insightful. Not only that, he could be as harsh critiquing J S Bach as critiquing pop, and even his view of pop was more complex than what his detractors claim, so in my opinion he's hardly the best posterboy for pro-classical, anti-pop... This is way too complex to talk about on 313 though. I will mention that Adorno viewed ALL art as failure, because he thought that there was a utopian impulse in art, that could never be fulfilled in the artwork itself, but only in some kind of socio-political upheaval outside the realm of art. This is a pretty fair way of viewing things, if you ask me ... you could certainly look at Detroit techno as also containing some utopian impulses, dreaming of a different kind of world, a different kind of Detroit, seeing beauty and potential in the decay... Now whether an orchestra covering techno is any good ... I think that is really going to depend on how well its arranged and performed, not on the idea itself. I'm skeptical, but then again, I would have never believed that Senor Coconut would be any good, but some of those covers do indeed work for me. ~David On Jan 10, 2008 7:24 PM, JT Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the heartfelt rationale is utter dinosaur bs, pretty much exactly mirroring the elitist anti-pop music pseudo-intellectual music criticism of adorno and horkheimer during the 1940's.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
seems you agree with /0 then. wtf? he's saying techno music is far too simple to interest classical musicians, i just pointed out that 1. a modern day mozart provides proof otherwise and 2. techno is more rhythmically complex than classical 3. he's mirroring the cultural elitism of widely discredited and criticized prejudiced white guys from the 40's. for what it's worth, i view the classical-techno crossover thing with some suspicion and i find the results a tad amusing, like a novelty or a gimmick. i get the idea that doesn't that apply to any time artists established in one genre step into a pretty different one? has nothing to do with the results, more your pre-conceived notions (this is obviously just my opinion so i'm not trying to push it as fact) yep anybody who thinks tom is just another troll should read his musical writings on his blog or check his mixes. he talks a lot of bs but he's pretty good at explaining it and it comes from a seriously intense music lover...
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Switched on Bach is the obvious example here. Ceephax has done some classical lines (Beethoven or Mozart can't remember) plugged into the 303. Kind of interesting from the sheer novelty of actually programming detailed notation into the sequencer as opposed to the more or less random approach a lot of people take. -Jim Quoting Matt Kane's Brain [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:04 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't think of specific examples at the moment but I know there are classical pieces that have been interpreted by electronic/techno artists using the tools of their trade. William Orbit did that and failed miserably.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Toby Frith a écrit : I enjoyed the Blue Potential. It carried an air of ridiculousness that accompanies anything highbrow Mills does - the idea of an orchestra playing some of his harder records was faintly surreal, and there is something a bit daft in the idea that classical musicians interpreting techno music sort of validates it which I often feel is the hidden agenda behind these sorts of exercises, because ultimately classical music and orchestras are seen as the high end of the spectrum, whilst some guy pressing buttons on a drab grey box is seen as the opposite end. Funnily enough, The Bells was the most enjoyable interpretation alongside The March. For me it was definitely Gamma Player the highlight track of Blue Potential.The real strings add much to it.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Wow! I didn't know my little post about a Classical pianist interpreting one of C2's Landcruising tracks at Carnegie Hall would cause a tempest in a teapot ;) As for Techno music transposed for Classical, what about the Aphex/Glass version of Icct Hedral? I thought that worked rather well actually ... - Greg
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
aphex twin doesnt count, his music is worthy of orchestra reworks. and yeah, that performance of icct hedral is wonderful - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313 Mailing List 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Wow! I didn't know my little post about a Classical pianist interpreting one of C2's Landcruising tracks at Carnegie Hall would cause a tempest in a teapot ;) As for Techno music transposed for Classical, what about the Aphex/Glass version of Icct Hedral? I thought that worked rather well actually ... - Greg
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On Jan 11, 2008 5:30 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: aphex twin doesnt count, his music is worthy of orchestra reworks. you cant stop saying stupid things. you just cant help yourself. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
good one Tom, I hope you win - Original Message - From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 5:55 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of On Jan 11, 2008 5:30 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: aphex twin doesnt count, his music is worthy of orchestra reworks. you cant stop saying stupid things. you just cant help yourself. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On Jan 11, 2008 6:58 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: good one Tom, I hope you win it would be one more win than you've had in your entire life. tommm
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
there's no sense arguing nonsensical points, we got suckered On Jan 11, 2008 8:34 PM, Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 11, 2008 6:58 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: good one Tom, I hope you win it would be one more win than you've had in your entire life. tommm
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Why not? Do you think the musicians have something to be ashamed of? The Blue Potential is great. Have you even listened to it? G -Original Message- From: /0 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 02:55 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of I bet the people in the orchestra dont admit to that one while out with their musician friends I wouldnt - Original Message - From: The Archiver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: '/0' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:39 PM Subject: RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of What about the Blue Potential with Mills? -Original Message- From: /0 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 00:30 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Isn't it kind of the reverse of Tomita? i may agree or disagree, but that doesn't matter. that is an awfully closed minded thing to say, and I do believe that alot of what techno and creative music is about is having an open mind. If a director has an open enough mind to try Techno, then good for him. I remember people cringing at orchestras playing with heavy metal bands...it may have not liked it very much, but i do appreciate the work that was put in to the result and the creativeness to give it a shot. Jeff --- /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
I enjoyed the Blue Potential. It carried an air of ridiculousness that accompanies anything highbrow Mills does - the idea of an orchestra playing some of his harder records was faintly surreal, and there is something a bit daft in the idea that classical musicians interpreting techno music sort of validates it which I often feel is the hidden agenda behind these sorts of exercises, because ultimately classical music and orchestras are seen as the high end of the spectrum, whilst some guy pressing buttons on a drab grey box is seen as the opposite end. Funnily enough, The Bells was the most enjoyable interpretation alongside The March. re : C2 - I'd agree with JT - I think it'd be definitely more interesting and more importantly, dynamic. -Original Message- From: JT Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 04:49 To: Frank Glazer Cc: /0; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of not exactly a twist was it? :P i think c2 translated to orchestra would be tremendous. the string arrangements would translate easily, and imagining the simple basslines and rhythmic melodic bits played by viola and french horn or whatever, hot dang. i never heard jeff mills' orchestra experiment, but i imagine carl's being more striking obviously carl already has respectable experience with live music and adventurous instrumentation with detroit experiment but besides, classical music and techno music are a great match, they're both played by machines (excepting yo yo ma, who is definitely an animal) On Jan 9, 2008 11:16 PM, Frank Glazer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think you missed my point, but i'm also beginning to think you're just a troll. For all the latest news and comment visit www.telegraph.co.uk. This message, its contents and any attachments to it are private, confidential and may be the subject of legal privilege. Any unauthorised disclosure, use or dissemination of the whole or part of this message (without our prior written consent) is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify us immediately. Incoming and outgoing telephone calls to our offices may be monitored or recorded for training and quality control purposes and for confirming orders and information. Telegraph Media Group Limited is a limited liability company registered in England and Wales (company number 451593). Our registered office address is: 111 Buckingham Palace Road, London, SW1W 0DT.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
i may agree or disagree, but that doesn't matter. that is an awfully closed minded thing to say, and I do believe that alot of what techno and creative music is about is having an open mind. If a director has an open enough mind to try Techno, then good for him. I remember people cringing at orchestras playing with heavy metal bands...it may have not liked it very much, but i do appreciate the work that was put in to the result and the creativeness to give it a shot. Jeff --- /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Toby Frith wrote: there is something a bit daft in the idea that classical musicians interpreting techno music sort of validates it which I often feel is the hidden agenda behind these sorts of exercises, because ultimately classical music and orchestras are seen as the high end of the spectrum, whilst some guy pressing buttons on a drab grey box is seen as the opposite end. I can't speak to the concept behind the Blue Potential project, nor to the way audiences might feel about the notion of validation for these projects in general. But I worked on the Alarm Will Sound/Aphex Twin thing, and our only motivation there was that we just loved the music and wanted to hear what it would sound like played by acoustic instruments. There was certainly no sinister marketing angle or highbrow/lowbrow thinking - that's for cultural theorists and hipster bloggers, not musicians. -- Dennis DeSantis www.dennisdesantis.com www.myspace.com/dennisdesantis Mailing List: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
1. /0 as per usual, was trolling. Acquiring the Urine, as it were. 2. The Alarms WIll Sound CD had some awesome moments. It transmuted the patience Richard James put into hours and hours of step programming into real-time instrumental virtuosity. It isn't better or worse than the original, it's different, in an interesting (and very enjoyable) way. 3. I haven't heard the Blue Potential thing, except for snippets, and the snippets didn't make me want to seek it out. As a former orchestral musician, my feeling is that orchestras are really good at playing notes, and playing music from the domain in which the players are trained. If the conductor is decent, and the back half of every section isn't there just to collect a paycheck, magic can happen. Said magic rarely happens when the music on the stands comes from a musical domain completely foreign to the musicians. This isn't limited to things like Techno-Orchestral works. I've heard performances of Webern and Alban Berg that were just awful, because most of the orchestra -- and sometimes the conductor as well -- just can't get into it. Nothing is worse than an orchestra playing a piece most of the players hate. You feel the hate coming through. On Jan 10, 2008 9:29 AM, Dennis DeSantis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toby Frith wrote: there is something a bit daft in the idea that classical musicians interpreting techno music sort of validates it which I often feel is the hidden agenda behind these sorts of exercises, because ultimately classical music and orchestras are seen as the high end of the spectrum, whilst some guy pressing buttons on a drab grey box is seen as the opposite end. I can't speak to the concept behind the Blue Potential project, nor to the way audiences might feel about the notion of validation for these projects in general. But I worked on the Alarm Will Sound/Aphex Twin thing, and our only motivation there was that we just loved the music and wanted to hear what it would sound like played by acoustic instruments. There was certainly no sinister marketing angle or highbrow/lowbrow thinking - that's for cultural theorists and hipster bloggers, not musicians.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
of course I was trolling, but the meat of my troll was heartfelt, in that I think its an insult to even ask a classical musician to cover something as simplistic as 4/4 16-step quantized techno. I produced electronic music for almost 15 years, so I have less of a hate for techno than a respect for people that can do true humanized composition across a myriad of real instruments. the point was to entertain my self while waking this list up. I could have trolled in on a subject that never would have spawned a working thread. - Original Message - From: kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dennis DeSantis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of 1. /0 as per usual, was trolling. Acquiring the Urine, as it were. 2. The Alarms WIll Sound CD had some awesome moments. It transmuted the patience Richard James put into hours and hours of step programming into real-time instrumental virtuosity. It isn't better or worse than the original, it's different, in an interesting (and very enjoyable) way. 3. I haven't heard the Blue Potential thing, except for snippets, and the snippets didn't make me want to seek it out. As a former orchestral musician, my feeling is that orchestras are really good at playing notes, and playing music from the domain in which the players are trained. If the conductor is decent, and the back half of every section isn't there just to collect a paycheck, magic can happen. Said magic rarely happens when the music on the stands comes from a musical domain completely foreign to the musicians. This isn't limited to things like Techno-Orchestral works. I've heard performances of Webern and Alban Berg that were just awful, because most of the orchestra -- and sometimes the conductor as well -- just can't get into it. Nothing is worse than an orchestra playing a piece most of the players hate. You feel the hate coming through. On Jan 10, 2008 9:29 AM, Dennis DeSantis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toby Frith wrote: there is something a bit daft in the idea that classical musicians interpreting techno music sort of validates it which I often feel is the hidden agenda behind these sorts of exercises, because ultimately classical music and orchestras are seen as the high end of the spectrum, whilst some guy pressing buttons on a drab grey box is seen as the opposite end. I can't speak to the concept behind the Blue Potential project, nor to the way audiences might feel about the notion of validation for these projects in general. But I worked on the Alarm Will Sound/Aphex Twin thing, and our only motivation there was that we just loved the music and wanted to hear what it would sound like played by acoustic instruments. There was certainly no sinister marketing angle or highbrow/lowbrow thinking - that's for cultural theorists and hipster bloggers, not musicians.
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On Jan 10, 2008 6:17 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of course I was trolling, but the meat of my troll was heartfelt, in that I think its an insult to even ask a classical musician to cover something as simplistic as 4/4 16-step quantized techno. your existance is an insult to humanity. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
what do you know of humanity? when you and I interact, I'm often reminded of a quote by albert einstein (google him if you don't know who he is, Tom) The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits I know which side of that equation you THINK you're on, sweetie. - Original Message - From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:22 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of On Jan 10, 2008 6:17 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of course I was trolling, but the meat of my troll was heartfelt, in that I think its an insult to even ask a classical musician to cover something as simplistic as 4/4 16-step quantized techno. your existance is an insult to humanity. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On Jan 10, 2008 6:30 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what do you know of humanity? when you and I interact, I'm often reminded of a quote by albert einstein (google him if you don't know who he is, Tom) The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits I know which side of that equation you THINK you're on, sweetie. i'm not the one trying to quote einstein to seem deep, chief. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_5mp4Ghmgfeature=related it's 2008 now right? prize the first one who can find in the archives when this playpen fight started MEK Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:32:35 PM: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:30:48 PM:
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Well the archives are in kind of a parlous state. I set up archiving to mail-archive.com, but they didn't end up pulling in the archives before sometime mid-2006, so if you want to search prior to that, you have to go to the raw mbox files on hyperreal.org I'd normally be concerned about ad hominem attacks on 313, but between /0 and tomcox, they seem to enjoy goading each other so much that it would be a shame to step in. On Jan 10, 2008 5:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_5mp4Ghmgfeature=related it's 2008 now right? prize the first one who can find in the archives when this playpen fight started MEK Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:32:35 PM: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:30:48 PM:
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
that or elist.resynthesize was just on there today. m. On Thu, January 10, 2008 6:19 pm, kent williams wrote: Well the archives are in kind of a parlous state. I set up archiving to mail-archive.com, but they didn't end up pulling in the archives before sometime mid-2006, so if you want to search prior to that, you have to go to the raw mbox files on hyperreal.org I'd normally be concerned about ad hominem attacks on 313, but between /0 and tomcox, they seem to enjoy goading each other so much that it would be a shame to step in. On Jan 10, 2008 5:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO_5mp4Ghmgfeature=related it's 2008 now right? prize the first one who can find in the archives when this playpen fight started MEK Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:32:35 PM: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 01/10/2008 05:30:48 PM:
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
It seems that resynthesize is back up anyway. http://pics.livejournal.com/oh_chris/pic/0002c564 On Jan 10, 2008, at 7:19 PM, kent williams wrote: Well the archives are in kind of a parlous state. I set up archiving to mail-archive.com, but they didn't end up pulling in the archives before sometime mid-2006, so if you want to search prior to that, you have to go to the raw mbox files on hyperreal.org -- matt kane's brain http://hydrogenproject.com aim - mkbatwerk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Why do you need to Troll? This list like most mailing lists has its Highs and Lows, all you are doing is contributing to the Lows... -Original Message- From: /0 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 23:17 To: kent williams; Dennis DeSantis Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of of course I was trolling, but the meat of my troll was heartfelt, in that I think its an insult to even ask a classical musician to cover something as simplistic as 4/4 16-step quantized techno. I produced electronic music for almost 15 years, so I have less of a hate for techno than a respect for people that can do true humanized composition across a myriad of real instruments. the point was to entertain my self while waking this list up. I could have trolled in on a subject that never would have spawned a working thread. - Original Message - From: kent williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dennis DeSantis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of 1. /0 as per usual, was trolling. Acquiring the Urine, as it were. 2. The Alarms WIll Sound CD had some awesome moments. It transmuted the patience Richard James put into hours and hours of step programming into real-time instrumental virtuosity. It isn't better or worse than the original, it's different, in an interesting (and very enjoyable) way. 3. I haven't heard the Blue Potential thing, except for snippets, and the snippets didn't make me want to seek it out. As a former orchestral musician, my feeling is that orchestras are really good at playing notes, and playing music from the domain in which the players are trained. If the conductor is decent, and the back half of every section isn't there just to collect a paycheck, magic can happen. Said magic rarely happens when the music on the stands comes from a musical domain completely foreign to the musicians. This isn't limited to things like Techno-Orchestral works. I've heard performances of Webern and Alban Berg that were just awful, because most of the orchestra -- and sometimes the conductor as well -- just can't get into it. Nothing is worse than an orchestra playing a piece most of the players hate. You feel the hate coming through. On Jan 10, 2008 9:29 AM, Dennis DeSantis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Toby Frith wrote: there is something a bit daft in the idea that classical musicians interpreting techno music sort of validates it which I often feel is the hidden agenda behind these sorts of exercises, because ultimately classical music and orchestras are seen as the high end of the spectrum, whilst some guy pressing buttons on a drab grey box is seen as the opposite end. I can't speak to the concept behind the Blue Potential project, nor to the way audiences might feel about the notion of validation for these projects in general. But I worked on the Alarm Will Sound/Aphex Twin thing, and our only motivation there was that we just loved the music and wanted to hear what it would sound like played by acoustic instruments. There was certainly no sinister marketing angle or highbrow/lowbrow thinking - that's for cultural theorists and hipster bloggers, not musicians. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
the heartfelt rationale is utter dinosaur bs, pretty much exactly mirroring the elitist anti-pop music pseudo-intellectual music criticism of adorno and horkheimer during the 1940's. anybody heard of jay greenberg? he's a child prodigy who entered Juilliard at age 11, and if you haven't heard of him, you should remember his name. his instructor at Julliard said of him on 60 minutes, We are talking about a prodigy of the level of the greatest prodigies in history, when it comes to composition. I am talking about the likes of Mozart, and Mendelssohn, and Saint-Saëns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Greenberg he went to elementary school (very briefly) in chapel hill, nc, where my best friend had the pleasure of teaching him. we hooked him up with cubase, and burned him cd's of stuff like dmay, c2, john beltran, detroit escalator, etc. he didn't fall in love with it, but he took a serious interest in techno, synthetic sounds, and he makes all his music using cubase -- it is only later performed by orchestras. that's good enough proof for me. this is beside the point that classical music is not typically rhythmically complex to begin with, so the comparison to 4/4 16 step quantizing is totally off the mark to begin with. at one point some classical students from duke were invited to one of my music theory classes at unc, and they were all blending classical music with modern production techniques, sampling, dance rhythms, polyrhythms, etc. i can't say i liked any of what i heard that day though On Jan 10, 2008 7:52 PM, The Archiver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do you need to Troll? This list like most mailing lists has its Highs and Lows, all you are doing is contributing to the Lows...
(313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIGTechnology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
What about the Blue Potential with Mills? -Original Message- From: /0 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 00:30 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Seeing UR (Mike Banks, Gerald Mitchell, Santiago Salazar) in Seattle with the Northwest Sinfornia Orchestra at the Red Bull Academy was pretty nice. You say it's wrong but I guess wrong sounded good. Cheers, Dave The Archiver wrote: What about the Blue Potential with Mills? -Original Message- From: /0 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 00:30 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
i guess steve reich and philip glass are a similar insult? On Jan 9, 2008 7:29 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg -- peace, frank dj mix archive: http://www.deejaycountzero.com
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
I bet the people in the orchestra dont admit to that one while out with their musician friends I wouldnt - Original Message - From: The Archiver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: '/0' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:39 PM Subject: RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of What about the Blue Potential with Mills? -Original Message- From: /0 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 00:30 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 09/01/2008 10:16
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On Jan 9, 2008 9:55 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I bet the people in the orchestra dont admit to that one while out with their musician friends I wouldnt and you are, of course, the arbiter of taste in the classical world. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
orchestral musicians have to eat too - Original Message - From: DB [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:18 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Seeing UR (Mike Banks, Gerald Mitchell, Santiago Salazar) in Seattle with the Northwest Sinfornia Orchestra at the Red Bull Academy was pretty nice. You say it's wrong but I guess wrong sounded good. Cheers, Dave The Archiver wrote: What about the Blue Potential with Mills? -Original Message- From: /0 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 January 2008 00:30 To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
On Jan 9, 2008 10:05 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: orchestral musicians have to eat too there's no possibility that someone so highbrow could possibly like something so lowbrow as techno music. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
steve reich =/= techno - Original Message - From: Frank Glazer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of i guess steve reich and philip glass are a similar insult? On Jan 9, 2008 7:29 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg -- peace, frank dj mix archive: http://www.deejaycountzero.com
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
exactly, monkey boy - Original Message - From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:08 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of On Jan 9, 2008 10:05 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: orchestral musicians have to eat too there's no possibility that someone so highbrow could possibly like something so lowbrow as techno music. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
swallow the hook, Tom. Worms be damned. - Original Message - From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:05 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of On Jan 9, 2008 9:55 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I bet the people in the orchestra dont admit to that one while out with their musician friends I wouldnt and you are, of course, the arbiter of taste in the classical world. tom
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
i think you missed my point, but i'm also beginning to think you're just a troll. On Jan 9, 2008 10:34 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: steve reich =/= techno - Original Message - From: Frank Glazer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of i guess steve reich and philip glass are a similar insult? On Jan 9, 2008 7:29 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: classical musicians covering techno music is an insult to the art of music. if you disagree, you're wrong. - Original Message - From: Greg Earle [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of Attention Classical fans in NYC (that means you Derek): Bach, Berio, ... Carl Craig?!? CARL CRAIG Technology (adapted by Francesco Tristano Schlimé) http://www.carnegiehall.org/article/box_office/events/evt_10028.html? selecteddate=02012008 - Greg -- peace, frank dj mix archive: http://www.deejaycountzero.com -- peace, frank dj mix archive: http://www.deejaycountzero.com
Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
not exactly a twist was it? :P i think c2 translated to orchestra would be tremendous. the string arrangements would translate easily, and imagining the simple basslines and rhythmic melodic bits played by viola and french horn or whatever, hot dang. i never heard jeff mills' orchestra experiment, but i imagine carl's being more striking obviously carl already has respectable experience with live music and adventurous instrumentation with detroit experiment but besides, classical music and techno music are a great match, they're both played by machines (excepting yo yo ma, who is definitely an animal) On Jan 9, 2008 11:16 PM, Frank Glazer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i think you missed my point, but i'm also beginning to think you're just a troll.
RE: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of
Aren't most classical musicians just playing covers anyhow? :P Oh, hi... long time reader, first time poster... ;) -Original Message- From: Thomas D. Cox, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2008 4:08 p.m. To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: (313) C2 at Carnegie Hall, well sort of On Jan 9, 2008 10:05 PM, /0 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: orchestral musicians have to eat too there's no possibility that someone so highbrow could possibly like something so lowbrow as techno music. tom
