Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
The point is not whether there is a differencee between the dacs , but whether you like any of the DACS. My take on the TP's dac is that it is analytical and not that much better than the Sb's ... I dont enjoy listening to it..your mileage may vary. I recon both units are best used as high end transports which leaves you free to find the dac that you like instead fo being tied to either - if that is the direction you take then keep the cheaper SB as its digital output is as good as the TP's The TP might have other advantages over the SB that make it worthwhile , like its balanced analog outputs , its ability to act as both a digital and normal pre , its ability to feed its own dac and thus insert some sort of DSP processor, looks , high res files and so on. -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Eric Carroll;410852 Wrote: Priceless reply. But I don't think anyone answered your actual question. You should expect XLR outputs to be +6 dB above RCA connections. In addition, but more variably, -nominal- line level between RCA (consumer) and XLR balanced (professional) can vary up to 12-14 dB. Maximum levels differ as well. Its variable because not all vendors implement it the same way, unfortunately. Further insight for SB3/Tp is available on the 'ConnectToPowerAmp' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/ConnectToPowerAmp) wiki page. So level matching with a sound meter as you have done is critical for testing, and you should not expect equal settings on the two devices for different connection types. I appreciate your reply to the initial question. The sound level meter is definitely the way to go opaqueice;410853 Wrote: You might find this thread interesting: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35068 That thread says a lot. I, for one, am not in the least bit surprised by the findings. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409346 Wrote: I was simply asking if using the XLR outputs influences the volume. Priceless reply. But I don't think anyone answered your actual question. You should expect XLR outputs to be +6 dB above RCA connections. In addition, but more variably, -nominal- line level between RCA (consumer) and XLR balanced (professional) can vary up to 12-14 dB. Maximum levels differ as well. Its variable because not all vendors implement it the same way, unfortunately. Further insight for SB3/Tp is available on the 'ConnectToPowerAmp' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/ConnectToPowerAmp) wiki page. So level matching with a sound meter as you have done is critical for testing, and you should not expect equal settings on the two devices for different connection types. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Pass Labs X2.5-Bel Canto Evo6 Gen II-Paradigm Signature S8 SB3-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Kingrex T20-Paradigm Reference Studio 20 v.4 Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409594 Wrote: I do feel that they are revealing enough that one would expect to see some sort of an improvement between the Transporter vs. SB3. On the other hand, perhaps, it does take $5000 speakers to hear a difference... You might find this thread interesting: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35068 -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
opaqueice;410853 Wrote: You might find this thread interesting: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35068 Wow! I really didn't know that this discussion has been going on for that long! But I'm curios now. I would love to redo a similar test and find out if I could hear a difference or not. I could swear that my plain Duet sounded worse than with an external DAC. To me from the first note on the difference was so obvious I didn't find it necessary to do a blind test. But who knows? Maybe I would fail... -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409630 Wrote: I did find that the SB3 was somewhat fatiguing to listen to due to unrefined/harsh highs. That seems to have resolved with the Transporter. That's a good point and something that's maybe not that obvious when listening to short samples and switching between sources. I don't think you'll hear huge differences on short samples between the two (depending on the material, and the rest of the system etc), but I think you'll find a more significant difference over a long period. What about listening to a programme of music over a couple of nights on one, and then the same programme over the next couple of nights on the other? Just choose the volume you feel comfortable with, which might be different with a different source as well as with different music, and see which gives you the most pleasure. It seems to me that test more closely replicates your real use of the products, and is therefore more likely to give significant results. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
musicexpression;410102 Wrote: since VFDs are inherently noisy devices that potentially enter into the audio path, why didn't SD look into the newer OLED devices??? but looks like the 802.11b/g pci card can be swapped to a draft N version... But if you're really worried about noise, shouldn't you remove the wireless card altogether? I guess I better get my fireproof suit! I'm guessing the display was used, because they were already buying lots of them for SB3's. The firmware and hardware was working well, so it would have been more difficult to justify switching. -- DCtoDaylight Audiophile wish list: Zero Distortion, Infinite Signal to Noise Ratio, and a Bandwidth from DC to Daylight DCtoDaylight's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7284 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
boxerboy;409662 Wrote: El Duderino: I am going to share with you the way that I audition equipment. You are cerainly free to use other selections that you may find more in tune with your tastes... I've acquired a few of the albums you suggested. First impressions below in direct comparison between the Transporter vs. SB3. boxerboy;409662 Wrote: 2) Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - Track 7 The Chain Listen for the high pitched guitar of Lindsay Buckingham; the deep bass of of the Bass guitar and the clear sounds of the bass drum and the cymbols. There is a definite difference between the Transporter and SB3 with clearer cymbals on the former rather than the white noise effect with the SB3 rendition of cymbals. The bass also hits a little lower on the Transporter. A noticeably wider soundstage with the Transporter but not a huge difference in this parameter. boxerboy;409662 Wrote: 3) Brad Mehldau - The Art of the Trio (Vol 3) - Track 1 Song-Song The three instruments should clearly be positoned on your sound stage. The piano should sound like a real piano. The bass should sound deep and authoritative. The drums should sound crisp and distinct. This album really brought out some of the differences between the Transporter and SB3 in terms of soundstaging. In the above track, the TP has a wider soundstage extending beyond the edge of the speakers. With the SB3, soundstage is strictly between the speakers. With the SB3, it sounds as if the piano is just to the right of center. With the TP, its very clearly on the right side of the stage. Another difference was apparent while listening to Exit Music (from a film) from the same album. The drumming/cymbals are significantly more distinct through the TP with clear delineation between each cymbal strike and the technical intricacy of the playing clearly evident. The sound was more of a smear through the SB3. boxerboy;409662 Wrote: I hope you find this useful. Jim Very useful, Jim. I need to start finding more audiophile level recordings to delineate the differences between the TP and SB3. Suggestions are welcome... Patrick Dixon;410478 Wrote: That's a good point and something that's maybe not that obvious when listening to short samples and switching between sources. I don't think you'll hear huge differences on short samples between the two (depending on the material, and the rest of the system etc), but I think you'll find a more significant difference over a long period. What about listening to a programme of music over a couple of nights on one, and then the same programme over the next couple of nights on the other? Just choose the volume you feel comfortable with, which might be different with a different source as well as with different music, and see which gives you the most pleasure. It seems to me that test more closely replicates your real use of the products, and is therefore more likely to give significant results. Patrick, this is a great suggestion. I'll give it a try and report back. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409346 Wrote: Your ears are connected to your brain...really? With all due respect, yes -really-*. I'm pretty sure the ears are connected to the stomach as well, because music sounds better with red wine in there (YMMV). * 'Auditory nerve fibres provide synaptic connections between the hair cells of the cochlea and the cochlear nucleus within the brainstem.' [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochlear_nerve] -- Skunk http://www.last.fm/user/TheSkunk/ Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Skunk;410660 Wrote: With all due respect, yes -really-*. I'm pretty sure the ears are connected to the stomach as well, because music sounds better with red wine in there (YMMV). * 'Auditory nerve fibres provide synaptic connections between the hair cells of the cochlea and the cochlear nucleus within the brainstem.' [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochlear_nerve] You clearly missed the point completely of my sarcastic reply. I believe the remainder of that sentence which you did not quote illustrates my profession. I can assure you that I am aware of the anatomy without needing to resort to a Wikipedia link. On the other hand, perhaps I'm not giving you enough credit and you're trying on a little sarcarsm of your own. If so, touche. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
sidetrack a bit, but does anyone ever open up the TP and peek into its internals and see what sort of components used? silver wiring/solder, cerafine caps, precision resistors, etc? ;p -- musicexpression musicexpression's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=28861 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
musicexpression;409951 Wrote: but does anyone ever open up the TP and peek into its internals and see what sort of components used? Photos here: http://photos.lam.ws/gallery/1930618_nnKTm/1 -- Mark Lanctot Current: SB2, Transporter, Boom (PQP3 - late beta), SBC (early beta) Stored: Boom (PQP1 - early beta) Sold: SB3, Duet Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Mark Lanctot;410004 Wrote: Photos here: http://photos.lam.ws/gallery/1930618_nnKTm/1 thanks for the eye-opening peektures almost 50% of the internals contains the all-important air :) since VFDs are inherently noisy devices that potentially enter into the audio path, why didn't SD look into the newer OLED devices??? but looks like the 802.11b/g pci card can be swapped to a draft N version... -- musicexpression musicexpression's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=28861 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
You can't trust your ears. Maybe not for volume balancing but once you did that, your ears are the only thing you can trust. If they sound no different to you then why spend the money on the transformer. I'm sure it's great and with the proper system is worth every penny. But in your case I agree that you would be better served in saving for speakers in the future. It's all about what you like and not someone telling you what you should hear. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino wrote: iPhone;409297 Wrote: If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. Not sure what prompted such an unpleasant reply. Oh, you get them in here. Par for the course really. A thick skin helps! snip Your ears are connected to your brain...really? I should keep that in mind before I go and perform that cochlear implant tomorrow morning. Lol. Priceless. I plan on using the TP to listen to music rather than gather audio engineer friends and break out the oscilloscopes to start measuring. Amen, brother. In conclusion, I believe the original post was a valid question about my experiences A/B'ing the TP and SB3. I was simply asking questions to refine my testing so that I could assess the two devices. Thus far, the majority of comments with the exception of yours seem to have offered decent advice so I'm clearly not wasting everyone's time. Thank you for your time regardless. Thank *you* for a superb riposte to a typical audiophile post. :) R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino: I think that a two channel audio system should be in balance. I believe that a financial ratio of 50% for speakers, 33% for amplification and 17% for sources is about right. I am very familiar with Aperian speakers and have purchased the 5T's for my daughter. They provide incredible value and performance at the price point of $1000/pair. They are especially well suited to Home Theater use. The Transporter sounds far better to me than the SB3. That said, I would save the price difference and apply the $1700 towards an eventual speaker upgrade. There are many free-standing DAC's that might provide better sound from your current SB3 into your 5T's that would cost less than a Transporter. I use a Channel Islands VPA.2 DAC in one of my bedrooms. It costs $599. Jim -- boxerboy boxerboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5786 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
boxerboy;409542 Wrote: El Duderino: I think that a two channel audio system should be in balance. I believe that a financial ratio of 50% for speakers, 33% for amplification and 17% for sources is about right. I am very familiar with Aperian speakers and have purchased the 5T's for my daughter. They provide incredible value and performance at the price point of $1000/pair. They are especially well suited to Home Theater use. The Transporter sounds far better to me than the SB3. That said, I would save the price difference and apply the $1700 towards an eventual speaker upgrade. There are many free-standing DAC's that might provide better sound from your current SB3 into your 5T's that would cost less than a Transporter. I use a Channel Islands VPA.2 DAC in one of my bedrooms. It costs $599. Jim Jim, thanks for the reply and the advice. The plan is for an eventual speaker upgrade. At this stage, I will continue to work with the 5Ts because, as you say, they do provide remarkable performance considering the cost. I do feel that they are revealing enough that one would expect to see some sort of an improvement between the Transporter vs. SB3. On the other hand, perhaps, it does take $5000 speakers to hear a difference... With regards to using a standalone DAC with the SB3, the thought has occured to me. However, I imagine a Transporter would have likely still been somewhere along my upgrade path, even if I were to use the $1700 to buy a new set of speakers today. Essentially, having purchased the new speakers, I would be left wanting a better source than an SB3/SB3+DAC...like a Transporter! I do agree that buying speaker first and source later would likely yield more immediate sonic benefits. You state that the Transporter sounded much better than the SB3 to you. I would be interested in understanding what parameters you felt were, specifically, improved--or was it more of an across the board thing? Thanks again. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
duderino, how are you level matching? Are you using your preamp to chanege the level or are you lowering the volume on the TP. You should set both the SB and TP to max volume and use the preamp to change the volume to match. You raise the noise floor if you use the digital volume and might also drop some bits depending on how low you go. My preamp can keep separate volume levels for separate inputs. When I compared TP to SB I thought there was enough dif to make it worth it. However these difs are much less than the difs between speakers. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
tomjtx;409614 Wrote: duderino, how are you level matching? Are you using your preamp to chanege the level or are you lowering the volume on the TP. You should set both the SB and TP to max volume and use the preamp to change the volume to match. You raise the noise floor if you use the digital volume and might also drop some bits depending on how low you go. My preamp can keep separate volume levels for separate inputs. When I compared TP to SB I thought there was enough dif to make it worth it. However these difs are much less than the difs between speakers. Hi Tom. Level matching sources by playing a white noise sample through synchronized SB3 and Transporter and using a Radioshack sound meter to level match. I have the volume on the SB3 and Transporter set to fixed gain (ie at 100%) and adjust the volume on the preamp to volume match. Like yours, my preamp is able to store separate volume levels for separate inputs so it makes A/B comparisons pretty easy. I am sure that changing out speakers will make a significant difference. I plan on doing this down the road. I did find that the SB3 was somewhat fatiguing to listen to due to unrefined/harsh highs. That seems to have resolved with the Transporter. What subjective differences did you note between the SB3 and Transporter? -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
I'll just throw in my two cents on this subject. I auditioned the Transporter under their trial offer and ended up keeping my SB3 to use with a Lavry DA-10 external DAC. I could find no audible difference between them to justify keeping the Transporter. That was about two years ago and I've had absolutely no urge to change anything at the source end of my system since. The Transporter does have some flexibility that the SB3 does not, and it combines the receiver and DAC into one box. There is also the appearance issue; the Transporter simply looks like a more serious piece of equipment and that is certainly important to many people. The Transporter is certainly an excellent product, and by high-end audio standards, is still quite reasonably priced. I don't think you can go wrong either way. -- mlsstl mlsstl's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9598 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Robin Bowes;409472 Wrote: Thank *you* for a superb riposte to a typical audiophile post. :) R. It was my pleasure. ;) -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino: I am going to share with you the way that I audition equipment. You are cerainly free to use other selections that you may find more in tune with your tastes. I have used the same four tracks to test different audio systems for several years. This enables me to establish a base line of expectations so that I can hear diferences when they occur. Each track offers sometihing different from the others. 1) Diana Krall - Love Scenes - Tack 1 All or nothing at all This track sounds good on almost any system. If it doesn't sound good, there may be something wrong with your set-up. 2) Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - Track 7 The Chain Listen for the high pitched guitar of Lindsay Buckingham; the deep bass of of the Bass guitar and the clear sounds of the bass drum and the cymbols. 3) Brad Mehldau - The Art of the Trio (Vol 3) - Track 1 Song-Song The three instruments should clearly be positoned on your sound stage. The piano should sound like a real piano. The bass should sound deep and authoritative. The drums should sound crisp and distinct. 4) Rimsky-Korsakov - Scherazade Track 1 The Sea and Sinbad's Ship This movement has great dynamic range. The loud sections shouldn't sound muddy. The violin solos should sound real. Set the volume up high to enjoy this music. I hope you find this useful. Jim -- boxerboy boxerboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5786 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
One argument for the Transporter: It is able to play 96kHz files. As long as the most common way to get digital music is ripping standard CDs it's not a big advantage. But the more you can buy music online the more I would love being able to play the best quality offered. I'm extremely happy with my Duet/DacMagic but I just can't afford a Transporter. As you can see, I'm still convinced that a Transporter simply -has to- sound at least as good as a SB+DAC. And I experienced myself that a SB+DAC sounds better than a plain SB. No ABX-test, white noise or sound meter is needed. Would you really consider blind-testing scotch single malt vs. bourbon? ;-) -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Quad;409695 Wrote: One argument for the Transporter: It is able to play 96kHz files. As long as the most common way to get digital music is ripping standard CDs it's not a big advantage. But the more you can buy music online the more I would love being able to play the best quality offered. I'm extremely happy with my Duet/DacMagic but I just can't afford a Transporter. As you can see, I'm still convinced that a Transporter simply -has to- sound at least as good as a SB+DAC. And I experienced myself that a SB+DAC sounds better than a plain SB. No ABX-test, white noise or sound meter is needed. Would you really consider blind-testing scotch single malt vs. bourbon? ;-) ...and a small counter-argument: 24/96 don't sound ANY different to 24/48... :-) -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker Chord Interconnect cables Outdoors: Boom Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Phil Leigh;409699 Wrote: ...and a small counter-argument: 24/96 don't sound ANY different to 24/48... :-) Thats possible... never had the chance to try due to a lack of Transporter. ;-) Maybe there some serious testing would be appropriate. -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409630 Wrote: ... I did find that the SB3 was somewhat fatiguing to listen to due to unrefined/harsh highs. That seems to have resolved with the Transporter. In my eyes :-) that's not a small feat. I have seen all kinds of phrases used to illustrate the quality of the transporter, but 'less fatiguing' might be the most important for me. That's the main reason I think you hear some differences between system components only after a relatively long listening period. E.g., several amps become very fatiguing after some days. As a classic music lover, 'realness' of instrument sounds are also very important to me. Here the listening period can be very short. A lot of components can be discarded after listening to a simple piano tune or a cello. (In my experience, all Class D amps -- except the very expensive ones like the Halcro -- turn a Steinway into an bad electronic piano. Lately I heard the first part of Bach's Goldberg variations played by Gould on two rather expensive Class D amps: it was terrible.) Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
iPhone;409297 Wrote: If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! Second, your ears can't be trusted as they are connected to you brain that uses all available information at its disposal to make conclusions. You may ask if you're listening what other info is available? I will tell you, your eyes and any misconceptions, biases, or conclusions you have already arrived at. An Audio Engineer friend and I have proved this many times with an experiment we repeated many times with the exact same result every time. Bias and pre-conclusions win out over actual facts when one is depending on ones ears to form test results. Download the software that Phil and I have been using and eliminate the faulty part of your testing IE your brain, eyes, and ears. Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. The SB3 has a 6.0Vpp RCA line level output and the Transporter XLR is 8.5Vpp so it had better sound louder into the same pre-amp line level input! Should it sound clearer and cleaner, it should, but because of the better DAC and accompanying circuits. Not the fact that XLR has more oomph. Again the ears are misleading the conclusions and the brain is making assumptions. Why are you so hostile? This user has great questions. IMO your logic is flawed on several points: First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! That does not mean it's going to sound better on his system. Or if it does sound better , it warrants the the difference in price. The law of diminishing returns. And I think that is what he is trying to determine. Second, your ears can't be trusted. WTF? Then why not buy a transistor radio? If he can't tell the difference why spend $2K VS $300? Because someone else tells you it sounds better because it uses better parts? Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. Your simply rude dude. -- sfraser 2 Chan. System SB3-Benchmark DAC-1- Bryston(BP-25,3B)-PMC TB2 Home Theater System SB2- Bryston(SP1,4B,4B,2B,2B)- PSB Stratus Goldi Basement System SB2- Parasound Preamp (carver M1.0t) -Klipsch La Scala's Bedroom System SB2- Sony BoomBox Rear Deck/Patio Duet- Yamaha Reciever- PSB Mini's, sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Quad wrote: meter is needed. Would you really consider blind-testing scotch single malt vs. bourbon? ;-) If you're ever in the area, let me know and we can find out :) ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
boxerboy;409662 Wrote: El Duderino: I am going to share with you the way that I audition equipment. You are cerainly free to use other selections that you may find more in tune with your tastes. I have used the same four tracks to test different audio systems for several years. This enables me to establish a base line of expectations so that I can hear diferences when they occur. Each track offers sometihing different from the others. 1) Diana Krall - Love Scenes - Tack 1 All or nothing at all This track sounds good on almost any system. If it doesn't sound good, there may be something wrong with your set-up. 2) Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - Track 7 The Chain Listen for the high pitched guitar of Lindsay Buckingham; the deep bass of of the Bass guitar and the clear sounds of the bass drum and the cymbols. 3) Brad Mehldau - The Art of the Trio (Vol 3) - Track 1 Song-Song The three instruments should clearly be positoned on your sound stage. The piano should sound like a real piano. The bass should sound deep and authoritative. The drums should sound crisp and distinct. 4) Rimsky-Korsakov - Scherazade Track 1 The Sea and Sinbad's Ship This movement has great dynamic range. The loud sections shouldn't sound muddy. The violin solos should sound real. Set the volume up high to enjoy this music. I hope you find this useful. Jim Jim, much appreciated. I will try and acquire a few of the above albums and give them a good listen. I have a fairly eclectic mix of music crossing multiple genres including blues, jazz, rock, reggae, electronic and hip-hop. I do not have a significant collection of classical music...yet. Teus de Jong;409712 Wrote: In my eyes :-) that's not a small feat. I have seen all kinds of phrases used to illustrate the quality of the transporter, but 'less fatiguing' might be the most important for me. That's the main reason I think you hear some differences between system components only after a relatively long listening period. E.g., several amps become very fatiguing after some days. Teus Absolutely and I am not underplaying this strength of the Transporter. The non-fatiguing nature of the Transporter vs the SB3 in my setup--regardless of the underlying mechanism--may, alone, be enough to convince me to keep the Transporter. I appreciate all the input thus far. This thread is evolving in a fairly interesting manner... -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
I have 5 SB3's and 3 Transporters. The quality of the DAC's in the Transporters are much higher. Are you using lossless files? If you are using MP3's you may not find much difference. What speakers are you using? What is your room like? Jim -- boxerboy boxerboy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5786 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409076 Wrote: Good point. Downloaded some white noise and used my Radio Shack level meter to ensure equal volumes. It turns out that, for whatever reason, fixing volume at 100% on both the SB3 and Transporter is not enough to equalize volumes if one unit is connected using unbalanced RCA and the other using balanced XLR. In any case, volumes are now absolutely equal... Not much difference between the Transporter and SB3. Out of curiousity, what are the differences others have noted between these two in a true A/B comparison?While I don't have a Trasporter, your findings do not surprise me. Level matching using instruments (not simply ones ear) is critical. I've been fooled multiple times when comparing equipment simply because one was a bit louder. Ideally, to further eliminate bias, the test is performed blind. -- davidjames Discuss Quality Audio/Home Theater on a budget: http://www.budgetavtalk.com Blogging Soccer/Audio/Home Theater: http://blogs.netlowdown.com davidjames's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=19208 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
I can hardly imagine that there will be no big difference between a Squeezebox and a Transporter. I do not own a Transporter but after having upgraded my Squeezebox with an external DAC, sound quality increased dramatically. I would expect the same from a Transporter. -- Quad Quad's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=20234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino;409064 Wrote: Hi, I am currently A/B'ing my SB3 and new Transporter to determine whether the significant price differential between the two units is justified, or whether the 30 day money back guarantee is the way to go. At present, I have the SB3 hooked up through its RCA analog output to a Bel Canto Pre1 which is wired via XLR to a Bel Canto 200.2 amp. The Transporter was initially hooked up to the Pre1 via RCA but is now connected using the balanced XLR connectors. I have noticed significant improvements with the Transporter but want to ensure that this is as controlled as possible. Firstly, I need to confirm that my setup is volume leveled. I have both the SB3 and Transporter synchronized with the volume set to fixed via the options menu in Squeezecenter. The volume digital readout on the Bel Canto is set to the same level for all inputs. To my ears, it sounds like the Transporter may be a little louder...but this may be a function of the lower noise floor and, overall, fuller presentation/wider soundstage/etc. If it is the latter cause, then I keep the Transporter. If, however, the perceived improvements are simply due to volumes which are not 100% identical, then I cannot possibly justify the price difference between the two and the Transporter goes back. My question is: with the aforementioned setup, is there any possible way that the volumes could be different? Does use of the XLR connector on the Transporter vs. the RCA outputs on the SB3 bias volume, all other factors being identical? Thanks in advance. If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! Second, your ears can't be trusted as they are connected to you brain that uses all available information at its disposal to make conclusions. You may ask if you're listening what other info is available? I will tell you, your eyes and any misconceptions, biases, or conclusions you have already arrived at. An Audio Engineer friend and I have proved this many times with an experiment we repeated many times with the exact same result every time. Bias and pre-conclusions win out over actual facts when one is depending on ones ears to form test results. Download the software that Phil and I have been using and eliminate the faulty part of your testing IE your brain, eyes, and ears. Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. The SB3 has a 6.0Vpp RCA line level output and the Transporter XLR is 8.5Vpp so it had better sound louder into the same pre-amp line level input! Should it sound clearer and cleaner, it should, but because of the better DAC and accompanying circuits. Not the fact that XLR has more oomph. Again the ears are misleading the conclusions and the brain is making assumptions. -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, Vandersteen Quatro, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: SB3, GFR-700HD, Thiel 2.3, Second Boom Home Office: SB3, NAD C370, two VSM-1 Home Gym: SB3, Parasound Vamp v.3, Thiel PowerPoint 1.2 House Portable: SB3, Audioengine A5 Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Expedition: SB3, ToughBook iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
iPhone;409297 Wrote: If you are going to use FLAC or some other lossless format and can afford the Transporter, keep it and enjoy the music instead of wasting time setting up incorrect/incomplete testing procedures. Not sure what prompted such an unpleasant reply. As far as incorrect/incomplete testing procedures, I am fully aware of the concept of double blind testing. Additionally, I should add that as an otolaryngologist (ENT surgeon) at a large academic center, I have been involved in setting up and running large clinical trials costing several million dollars and involving several thousand patients/controls so kindly do not presume to lecture me on expectation bias, etc. as you do below. As a result of that understanding, I am also fully aware that my procedures above do not constitute a randomized, DBT but they do consitute a simple way of delineating any major differences between the Transporter and SB3 in the comfort of one's own home. iPhone;409297 Wrote: First, common sense should tell you that you are wasting your time as well as ours because the DAC chip, DAC circuits, power supplies, and analog output section in the Transporter are superior to the SB3 in every department! That's great. I'm well aware of this fact and of the fact that there are several measureable improvements in SNR and other engineering parameters. That does not automatically mean an improvement in sound quality. For someone who spouts pseudoscience, you fail to realize that anyone with a robust scientific background would approach the comparison between Transporter and SB3 with an understanding that the null hypothesis (ie that there is no difference in sound quality between Tp vs. SB3 regardless of all the engineering hype) is the starting point and one must gather evidence to prove that the alternative hypothesis (ie that there is a difference) is correct and not vice versa. If I'm wasting your time, feel free to read another thread and do not presume to speak for others. iPhone;409297 Wrote: Second, your ears can't be trusted as they are connected to you brain that uses all available information at its disposal to make conclusions. You may ask if you're listening what other info is available? I will tell you, your eyes and any misconceptions, biases, or conclusions you have already arrived at. An Audio Engineer friend and I have proved this many times with an experiment we repeated many times with the exact same result every time. Bias and pre-conclusions win out over actual facts when one is depending on ones ears to form test results. Download the software that Phil and I have been using and eliminate the faulty part of your testing IE your brain, eyes, and ears. Your ears are connected to your brain...really? I should keep that in mind before I go and perform that cochlear implant tomorrow morning. What actual facts were your audio engineer friend and yourself testing? The actual fact that the TP sounds better than the SB3 or various technical measurements that may/may not correlate with audible improvement? You speak of using software to eliminate the bias inherent in ones brain, eyes, and ears but we are talking about an audio device here--as in something purchased to LISTEN to music. Any comparison beyond audible differences is completely moot. What do I care if an oscilloscope demonstrates measurable differences between a TP and and SB3 if I can't hear those differences? iPhone;409297 Wrote: Third, if you don't already know that XLR Balanced outputs are superior to RCA outs, then don't bother wasting your time and ours. Nowhere in my OP do I ask or suggest that XLR balanced outputs are superior/inferior/equal to RCA outs. I was simply asking if using the XLR outputs influences the volume. iPhone;409297 Wrote: The SB3 has a 6.0Vpp RCA line level output and the Transporter XLR is 8.5Vpp so it had better sound louder into the same pre-amp line level input! Should it sound clearer and cleaner, it should, but because of the better DAC and accompanying circuits. Not the fact that XLR has more oomph. Again the ears are misleading the conclusions and the brain is making assumptions. Which is precisely why I posted immediately after P. Farrell's wonderful suggestion regarding the fact that I volume leveled the SB3 and TP using a Radio Shack sound level meter. As far as misleading conclusions, my ears are all I care about in this particular comparison since, again, I plan on using the TP to listen to music rather than gather audio engineer friends and break out the oscilloscopes to start measuring. In conclusion, I believe the original post was a valid question about my experiences A/B'ing the TP and SB3. I was simply asking questions to refine my testing so that I could assess the two devices. Thus far, the majority of comments with the exception of yours seem to have offered decent advice so I'm clearly not wasting everyone's time. Thank you for your time
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
boxerboy;409273 Wrote: I have 5 SB3's and 3 Transporters. The quality of the DAC's in the Transporters are much higher. Are you using lossless files? If you are using MP3's you may not find much difference. What speakers are you using? What is your room like? Jim Hi Jim. I am using FLAC files. For speakers, I am using a pair of Aperion 6T which have received positive reviews from various audio magazines. Perhaps, more importantly, I have used these speakers to delineate clear differences between various CD transports. They are detailed although there is clearly always room for improvement. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
El Duderino wrote: To my ears, it sounds like the Transporter may be a little louder... Do not use your ears to equalise sound. Get a sound level meter. Radio Shack sells a fine unit for $30. The difference in price between a SB3 and Transporter is many times more than the cost of the sound meter. Make sure that the volume is exactly the same. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
pfarrell;409067 Wrote: Do not use your ears to equalise sound. Get a sound level meter. Radio Shack sells a fine unit for $30. The difference in price between a SB3 and Transporter is many times more than the cost of the sound meter. Make sure that the volume is exactly the same. Good point. Downloaded some white noise and used my Radio Shack level meter to ensure equal volumes. It turns out that, for whatever reason, fixing volume at 100% on both the SB3 and Transporter is not enough to equalize volumes if one unit is connected using unbalanced RCA and the other using balanced XLR. In any case, volumes are now absolutely equal... Not much difference between the Transporter and SB3. Out of curiousity, what are the differences others have noted between these two in a true A/B comparison? -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
