RE: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[West, William M]

>William> My impression was that OO in Perl has historically been
fraught
>with
>William> CPU overhead - this will change in Perl 6?  (argument number
2)
>
>FUD FUD FUD.
>
>*All* late binding takes a bit of time.  Perl caches what it can.
>


well, i'll be a mother's son!  I figured that Perl had to have /some/
problems somewhere.

interesting.


willy
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Re: RE : Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Jenda Krynicky]

From: "Nicolay A. Vasiliev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I MEANT STANDART TYPES. ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE? If you
> assign the value for string variable it automaticaly gets the number
> of methods belonging to String object. And as an example I wrote the
> s.replace statement.. The similar approach has Ruby. Of course, if you
> need more complicated functionality you make "import" or another
> including of some module.

And we were trying to explain to you that it doesn't really matter 
whether you have some builtin method of the builtin types or just a 
buch of builtin functions&operators. And that we actually prefer the 
second for the very basic types like numbers and strings.

I asked you in another mail whether you'd rather write
x = y.sin().plus(z)
or
x = sin(x) + z

What's the reply?

> I wrote about this only to show what can the real OO language (Python
> of course could be figured as procedural language too).

Do not sweat about "real whatever" langauges. That's not what gets 
the job done. So Perl doesn't treat the base types like objects. So 
what? That doesn't make its support for OO programming any less 
complete.

Yeah in strongly typed languages with oldstyle type system (read all 
mainstream strongly typed langauges including Java and C#) need some 
base "Object" type that all other types, including the base ones, 
inherit from. You don't need this in Perl, you can pass a number or a 
string or an object to the same function or method and the method may 
easily be programmed to accept them all and do the right thing. Even 
if some of them are not considered objects.

In my opinion forcing everything to be an object is wrong. Or at 
least inconvenient. (Especialy the way Java/C# does it.)
But that's just my personal preference.

Jenda
= [EMAIL PROTECTED] === http://Jenda.Krynicky.cz =
When it comes to wine, women and song, wizards are allowed 
to get drunk and croon as much as they like.
-- Terry Pratchett in Sourcery


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Re: RE : Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

Dear friend!
I MEANT STANDART TYPES. ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE? If you 
assign the value for string variable it automaticaly gets the number of 
methods belonging to String object. And as an example I wrote the 
s.replace statement.. The similar approach has Ruby. Of course, if you 
need more complicated functionality you make "import" or another 
including of some module.

I wrote about this only to show what can the real OO language (Python of 
course could be figured as procedural language too).

Jose Nyimi wrote:
>  
>
>>-Message d'origine-
>>De : Nicolay A. Vasiliev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Envoyé : vendredi 1 octobre 2004 22:39
>>À : Perl Beginners List
>>Objet : Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and
>>
>>
>says
>  
>
>>Perl is old news.
>>
>>I didn't mean CGI, only standart types.
>>
>>
>>
>
>s.replace(...) is a consequence of "everything is object" thinking.
>
>Look at the following:
>
>import re;
>m = re.match(r"(?P\d+)\.(\d*)", '3.14');
>//After performing this match
>//m.group(1) is '3', as is m.group('int')
>//and m.group(2) is '14'.
>
>There is a similar ugly thing in Java.
>All of this because you want everything to be an object.
>
>Can you tell us how will you perform the above
>matching without import re; :).
>
>In Perl you don't absolutely need a kind of use RE; to be able
>performing regular expression macthing.
>
>So, don't force my $s = "I am Perl Guru"; to be an object and contain a
>replace() method.
>
>$s is a string will be treated as is in Perl.
>
>José.
>
>
>
>  
>

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RE : Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Jose Nyimi]

> -Message d'origine-
> De : Nicolay A. Vasiliev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Envoyé : vendredi 1 octobre 2004 22:39
> À : Perl Beginners List
> Objet : Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and
says
> Perl is old news.
> 
> I didn't mean CGI, only standart types.
> 

s.replace(...) is a consequence of "everything is object" thinking.

Look at the following:

import re;
m = re.match(r"(?P\d+)\.(\d*)", '3.14');
//After performing this match
//m.group(1) is '3', as is m.group('int')
//and m.group(2) is '14'. 

There is a similar ugly thing in Java.
All of this because you want everything to be an object.

Can you tell us how will you perform the above
matching without import re; :).

In Perl you don't absolutely need a kind of use RE; to be able
performing regular expression macthing.

So, don't force my $s = "I am Perl Guru"; to be an object and contain a
replace() method.

$s is a string will be treated as is in Perl.

José.



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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "William" == William M West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

William> My impression was that OO in Perl has historically been fraught with 
William> CPU overhead - this will change in Perl 6?  (argument number 2)

FUD FUD FUD.

*All* late binding takes a bit of time.  Perl caches what it can.

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[JupiterHost.Net]

Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:
I didn't mean CGI, only standart types.
Everyone is just using your own examples as examples of why your 
arguments are moot :)

That's the last .02 I'm spending on this crazy thread :)
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

I didn't mean CGI, only standart types.
JupiterHost.Net wrote:
 >>CGI is a module, earlier
 >>wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean such objects.
 >>>>
 >
 >And Python objects live where -- the sky? The stars?
 >  >
To create $cgi = new CGI you should make declaration "use CGI", 
shouldn't you? I meant only this

Err, you keep arguing about pointless things:
 #!/usr/local/bin/python
 import cgi
 cgi.test()
 ...
Does "cgi.test()" still work without the "import cgi" ?
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[JupiterHost.Net]

 >>CGI is a module, earlier
 >>wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean such objects.
 >>>>
 >
 >And Python objects live where -- the sky? The stars?
 >  >
To create $cgi = new CGI you should make declaration "use CGI", 
shouldn't you? I meant only this
Err, you keep arguing about pointless things:
 #!/usr/local/bin/python
 import cgi
 cgi.test()
 ...
Does "cgi.test()" still work without the "import cgi" ?
So you have to do basically the equivalent of use CGI to be able to use 
the cgi object and therefore have access to all its functions.

And if you say, "Well I don't have to do my $cgi = new CGI so its 
better" is like me saying that perl is better because my shebang line 
takes up less file space that your python path. It's just pointless.

 >  >
 >>Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this Python 
code:
 >>
 >>s = "I am Perl guru";
 >>new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");
 >>>>
 >
 >No, you're using Python's built in string operators. Perl has them too:
 >  >

Python doc quotation:
"2.3.6.1 String Methods
...
replace( old, new[, count])
Return a copy of the string with all occurrences of substring old 
replaced by new. If the optional argument count is given, only the first 
count occurrences are replaced.
"

 > $s = "I am a Perl guru";
 > ( $new_s = $s ) =~ s/perl/python/;
 >
 >Remark, no additional modules.
 >  >
Agreed, but this is RE approach. This is supported by Python/Perl, but I 
meant another thing (hope you understand me).
No I don't understand.
Who cares if you do a regex or a built in function/method that does the 
regex for you?

You're arguments are all like "My dad can beat up your dad" when the 
truth is, in different circumstances either dad could beat up either dad.

Its better to you because you understand it, which doesn't make it 
better or worse.

In my opinion and experience Perl does everything I've ever needed to do 
programming wise, its easy to learn and expand, and has been easier to 
do that with than any other language I've played with. Your experience 
may be different. So in that sense my dad can beat up your dad, but in 
your experience it would seem your dad can beat up my dad :)

So to the OP: chin up! Python (or any other language) isn't going to 
replace Perl (and Perl is not going to replace any other languages), 
especially with lame arguments for Python like we've seen here ;p

Nobody's mentioned Moto yet :) Its pretty cool
Just my .02 :)
Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net
(By the way we offer Python as one of our features to appeal to more 
customers, can't we all just get along ;p)

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Nicolay" == Nicolay A Vasiliev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Nicolay> Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this Python code:

Nicolay> s = "I am Perl guru";
Nicolay> new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");

$s = "I am a Perl guru";
($new_s = $s) =~ s/Perl/Python/;

No additional modules.

Nicolay> By the way, these languages have people friendly exceptions handling ;) with 
try-except in Python and begin-rescue in Ruby.

Just like Perl, again.

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RE: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[West, William M]

>With this willing to treat everything as object you end up with
>Ugly code such as the following:
>http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/CgiScripts

(code snipped to save space)


i found the Python script to be very readable- i am far more comfortable
with Perl syntax, but it worked for me.

I think there are two arguments which can be made here- both good.

1.  code syntax (limitation/flexibility/readability) - how languages
differ and language preference.

2.  Language strengths and weaknesses (outside of syntax).


My impression was that OO in Perl has historically been fraught with 
CPU overhead - this will change in Perl 6?  (argument number 2)

I like the functional() as apposed to the menthod.syntax() because i can
more easily visualise the path that data takes through the code.  makes
my life easier (argument number 1)


for me something like $new_s = change($s, $string); just works better
for me.  anyway, the advantages of encapsulation are easily produced in
functional() code with good coding practices.

of course, now we're talking about meta topics as apposed to particular
Perl
questions- but I think the argument is worth while.


willy
http://www.hackswell.com/corenth 


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

Chris Devers wrote:
>>CGI is a module, earlier
>>wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean such objects.
>>
>>
>
>And Python objects live where -- the sky? The stars?
>  
>
To create $cgi = new CGI you should make declaration "use CGI", 
shouldn't you? I meant only this

>  
>
>>Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this Python 
code:
>>
>>s = "I am Perl guru";
>>new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");
>>
>>
>
>No, you're using Python's built in string operators. Perl has them too:
>  
>

Python doc quotation:
"2.3.6.1 String Methods
...
replace( old, new[, count])
Return a copy of the string with all occurrences of substring old 
replaced by new. If the optional argument count is given, only the first 
count occurrences are replaced.
"

> $s = "I am a Perl guru";
> ( $new_s = $s ) =~ s/perl/python/;
>
>Remark, no additional modules.
>  
>
Agreed, but this is RE approach. This is supported by Python/Perl, but I 
meant another thing (hope you understand me).

>
>
>You haven't come across eval{...} yet, have ya?  
>
>The differences among Perl, Python, and Ruby are mostly semantic -- each
>of them can accomplish all the same tasks, but they wrap up the way to
>implement these tasks in ever-so-slightly different syntax. But so what?
>  
>
Agreed. I am against the blacking of these languages expressed by Mr. 
Randal.

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Wiggins d Anconia]

> 
> On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 11:04 +0200, Gabor Urban wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> > 
> > this thread seems to expand into something unworthy of this mailing
> > list. You can not compare a cup of tea with a horse, these are two
> > totally different things.
> Don't be ridiculous, of course they don't compare, a horse is _way_ more
> useful than a cup of tea, horses plow fields, they provide
> transportation, and when attached to a Hansom Cab, they can even get men
> laid!
> A cup of tea has none of these features.  So please, no more disparaging
> horses by comparing them to cups of tea, this sort of madness _must_
> stop!
> 
> --uv
> 

"Teach a man to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day."

Careful some of the Briton's are probably pretty sensitive over their
tea ;-)

I think this thread has definitely deteriorated.

http://danconia.org


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[UV]

On Fri, 2004-10-01 at 11:04 +0200, Gabor Urban wrote:
> Hi guys,
> 
> this thread seems to expand into something unworthy of this mailing
> list. You can not compare a cup of tea with a horse, these are two
> totally different things.
Don't be ridiculous, of course they don't compare, a horse is _way_ more
useful than a cup of tea, horses plow fields, they provide
transportation, and when attached to a Hansom Cab, they can even get men
laid!
A cup of tea has none of these features.  So please, no more disparaging
horses by comparing them to cups of tea, this sort of madness _must_
stop!

--uv



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Description: This is a digitally signed message part

RE: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Doug Lewis]

I won't even reply to the person that said, perl is old news.  And that everyone talks 
about Python.  That is just stupid.  Most people either talk about C, C++, or Java.  
Then comes perl.
 
Perl is still way more talked about than Python In my Experience.
 
Perl makes things much simpler.


"NYIMI Jose (BMB)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> -Original Message-
> From: Nicolay A. Vasiliev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:45 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about 
> Python and says Perl is old news.
> 
> 
> To Randal and Chris. You all don't understand me. CGI is a module, 
> earlier wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean 
> such objects.
> 
> Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this 
> Python code:
> 
> s = "I am Perl guru";
> new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");
> 

With this willing to treat everything as object you end up with
Ugly code such as the following:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/CgiScripts

#!/usr/bin/env python

import cgi

print "Content-type: text/html"
print
print

print """






Sample CGI Script 
"""

form = cgi.FieldStorage()
if form.has_key( "message" ):
message = form["message"].value
else:
message = "(no message)"

print """


Previous message: %s



form:




message:  [input] 






""" % message


That I let the beginners-list to show you how it can be nicer written in Perl :)

José.


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RE: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[NYIMI Jose \(BMB\)]

> -Original Message-
> From: Nicolay A. Vasiliev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 2:45 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about 
> Python and says Perl is old news.
> 
> 
> To Randal and Chris. You all don't understand me. CGI is a module, 
> earlier wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean 
> such objects.
> 
> Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this 
> Python code:
> 
> s = "I am Perl guru";
> new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");
> 

With this willing to treat everything as object you end up with
Ugly code such as the following:
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/CgiScripts

#!/usr/bin/env python

import cgi

print "Content-type: text/html"
print
print

print """


Sample CGI Script



   Sample CGI Script 
"""

form = cgi.FieldStorage()
if form.has_key( "message" ):
message = form["message"].value
else:
message = "(no message)"

print """

  Previous message: %s

  form:

  
message: 
  




""" % message


That I let the beginners-list to show you how it can be nicer written in Perl :)

José.


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Paul Cox]

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:21:45 -0400 (EDT), Chris Devers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:
> 
> > To Randal and Chris. You all don't understand me.
> 
> There is a misunderstanding, but I'm not sure that it's Randal & me.
> 
> > CGI is a module, earlier
> > wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean such objects.
> 
> And Python objects live where -- the sky? The stars?
> 
> > Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this Python code:
> >
> > s = "I am Perl guru";
> > new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");
> 
> No, you're using Python's built in string operators. Perl has them too:
> 
>  $s = "I am a Perl guru";
>  ( $new_s = $s ) =~ s/perl/python/;
> 
> Remark, no additional modules.
> 
> 
> > Huh? Remark, no addition modules.
> 
> You're using methods defined by modules that live with Python.
> 
> Why bother splitting this hair? It's a distinction without a difference.
> 
> > By the way, these languages have people friendly exceptions handling ;) with
> > try-except in Python and begin-rescue in Ruby.
>  
> You haven't come across eval{...} yet, have ya?
> 
> The differences among Perl, Python, and Ruby are mostly semantic -- each
> of them can accomplish all the same tasks, but they wrap up the way to
> implement these tasks in ever-so-slightly different syntax. But so what?
> Any of them are *much* more pleasant to work with than Java, C/C++, or
> *shudder* Visual Basic.
> 
> --
> Chris Devers
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 

Just as a building contractor shows up to the job site with a tool box
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questions regarding his capability, when he shows up with only a
screwdriver.


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Chris Devers]

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:

> To Randal and Chris. You all don't understand me.

There is a misunderstanding, but I'm not sure that it's Randal & me.

> CGI is a module, earlier
> wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean such objects.

And Python objects live where -- the sky? The stars? 

> Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this Python code:
> 
> s = "I am Perl guru";
> new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");

No, you're using Python's built in string operators. Perl has them too:

 $s = "I am a Perl guru";
 ( $new_s = $s ) =~ s/perl/python/;

Remark, no additional modules.

 
> Huh? Remark, no addition modules.

You're using methods defined by modules that live with Python.

Why bother splitting this hair? It's a distinction without a difference.
 
> By the way, these languages have people friendly exceptions handling ;) with
> try-except in Python and begin-rescue in Ruby.
 
You haven't come across eval{...} yet, have ya?  

The differences among Perl, Python, and Ruby are mostly semantic -- each 
of them can accomplish all the same tasks, but they wrap up the way to 
implement these tasks in ever-so-slightly different syntax. But so what? 
Any of them are *much* more pleasant to work with than Java, C/C++, or 
*shudder* Visual Basic. 


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Jenda Krynicky]

From: "Nicolay A. Vasiliev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Dear mr. Schwartz!
> Let me be unagreed. Functionally complete OO language at least means
> the next thing: when I create some object (ie, declare some variable,
> maybe string), this already have necessary methods like Python or
> Ruby. Even C++ haven't such functionality. Of course Perl haven't this
> too.

Sorry? Oh you want substr() to be a method, not a function, you want 
to write
$line.chomp();
instead of
chomp($line);
right?

I'd rather not.
Not everything has to be an object. Not everything has to be called 
like methods.

Would you like to have to write
$x = $y.sin().plus($y)
instead of
$x = sin($x) + $y;
?

There is a big difference between a functionaly complete OO language 
and a language that forces everything to be an object.

> I love Perl, it's great for concrete tasks class. But Python is good
> and clever too, don't you blacken this please even in a comedy form ;)

I did not see the word Python in Randal's message.

Jenda
= [EMAIL PROTECTED] === http://Jenda.Krynicky.cz =
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to get drunk and croon as much as they like.
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

To Randal and Chris. You all don't understand me. CGI is a module, 
earlier wrote and stored in a separate files. I don't mean such objects.

Python and Ruby don't write the code for me. But look at this Python code:
s = "I am Perl guru";
new_s = s.replace("Perl", "Python");
Huh? Remark, no addition modules.
The similar way is in Ruby and other nice.
By the way, these languages have people friendly exceptions handling ;) with 
try-except in Python and begin-rescue in Ruby.
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Nicolay" == Nicolay A Vasiliev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Nicolay> Let me be unagreed. Functionally complete OO language at least means
Nicolay> the next thing: when I create some object (ie, declare some variable,
Nicolay> maybe string), this already have necessary methods like Python or
Nicolay> Ruby. Even C++ haven't such functionality. Of course Perl haven't this
Nicolay> too.

I'm not quite following you, but I'm not sure why you think that
Python or Ruby writes your code for you.  There's as much (or little)
work to create an object in Perl as there is in either of those other
languages, in terms of what matters every day.

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Chris Devers]

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004, Nicolay A. Vasiliev wrote:

> Functionally complete OO language at least means the next thing: when 
> I create some object (ie, declare some variable, maybe string), this 
> already have necessary methods like Python or Ruby. Even C++ haven't 
> such functionality. Of course Perl haven't this too.

Huh?

  my $cgi = new CGI;

And hey presto, $cgi has all the methods of the CGI class.

And so on and so forth for all other OO Perl. (And most other languages 
with OO capabilities, for that matter, including C++.)

What are you talking about? The fact that strings, scalars, etc aren't 
usually thought of as objects (even though they have both data and 
standard methods for operating on them)? 

Unlike what I suspect Randal would say, I like Python. I have no problem 
with it. It's a nice language. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that 
Perl does indeed have a complete and fully functional OO framework, even 
though the language didn't grow up around this framework the way Python 
did.
 


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

Dear mr. Schwartz!
Let me be unagreed. Functionally complete OO language at least means the 
next thing: when I create some object (ie, declare some variable, maybe 
string), this already have necessary methods like Python or Ruby. Even 
C++ haven't such functionality. Of course Perl haven't this too.

I love Perl, it's great for concrete tasks class. But Python is good and 
clever too, don't you blacken this please even in a comedy form ;)

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
"Nicolay" == Nicolay A Vasiliev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
   

Nicolay> I mean real OO, but no perls "dirty hack".
There is nothing "dirty" or "hack" about Perl's OO.  It is as
functionally complete as nearly any other programming language.
 

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Nicolay" == Nicolay A Vasiliev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Nicolay> I mean real OO, but no perls "dirty hack".

There is nothing "dirty" or "hack" about Perl's OO.  It is as
functionally complete as nearly any other programming language.

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

Agreed!
Gabor Urban wrote:
Hi guys,
this thread seems to expand into something unworthy of this mailing
list. You can not compare a cup of tea with a horse, these are two
totally different things.
Both Perl and Python have it's place under the sun, both have very good
features, and some very difficult aspects, too. Both can be perfect for
the right tasks, but may be terrible choices for others. THe real point
if you write your code correct, know what you are doing and make
possible for others to understand your source. The difference is between
good and poor developer. IMHO I could write this about any other
language, for example Cobol, too :-
I am doing Python programming for living now, but create reports on my
log useng Perl. Perfect, smooth and efficient.
Gabaux
 

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gabor Urban]

Hi guys,

this thread seems to expand into something unworthy of this mailing
list. You can not compare a cup of tea with a horse, these are two
totally different things.

Both Perl and Python have it's place under the sun, both have very good
features, and some very difficult aspects, too. Both can be perfect for
the right tasks, but may be terrible choices for others. THe real point
if you write your code correct, know what you are doing and make
possible for others to understand your source. The difference is between
good and poor developer. IMHO I could write this about any other
language, for example Cobol, too :-

I am doing Python programming for living now, but create reports on my
log useng Perl. Perfect, smooth and efficient.

Gabaux


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

I mean real OO, but no perls "dirty hack".
Perl has OO support. In my opinion those funny syntax get u the job
done quicker when your boss comes down to you with deadly deadlines.
~;-) I assume those syntax u are talking about is regular expression.
 

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Sano Babu]

> >Perl is more powerful.  Python is simpler.  Python is for people
> >who don't want to master a language -- just use it casually.
> >
> >
> This is no serious statement. Python is simple and power too. Read
> please Bruce Eckel why he left Perl and came to Python.
> At least, it's really object-oriented as against Perl and it has more
> funny syntax :).
> 

Perl has OO support. In my opinion those funny syntax get u the job
done quicker when your boss comes down to you with deadly deadlines.
~;-) I assume those syntax u are talking about is regular expression.

> 
> --
> Best regards,
> Nicolay
> 
> http://www.soft411.com - Excellent soft archive
> http://www.spamliquidator.com - Kill spam

[snip]

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Nicolay A. Vasiliev]

Hello!
This is very interesting thread. So, let me add some words to this. 
(Sorry in advance my English).

Best of all, let me express my respect to Mr. Schwartz. I read your 
Lama-book and I think that's very useful for every Perl newbie. I got 
such chain: Lama-book, Camel-book and Cook-book :).

I love Perl and work with it more often than Python, but...
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
"Gavin" == Gavin Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
   

Gavin> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk
Gavin> to say I shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is
Gavin> better.
Perl is more powerful.  Python is simpler.  Python is for people
who don't want to master a language -- just use it casually.
 

This is no serious statement. Python is simple and power too. Read 
please Bruce Eckel why he left Perl and came to Python.
At least, it's really object-oriented as against Perl and it has more 
funny syntax :).

However, if you're gonna spend two or more hours a day hacking code,
Perl is definitely the right place to be.  Still.
Those Python weenies are all just casual programmers complaining
that for Perl, "with great power comes great responsibility".  Let'em.
Perl's support only grows.  I used to be able to follow the CPAN "new
modules list" by examining the daily run at search.cpan.org/recent.
But no more.  Look at all the new modules just in the past *seven*
days.  (It's typically a full web page for each day!) If that doesn't
show you an intense activity in the Perl community, I really don't
know what else I could show you.
 

Python community is large too (of course not yet as perl community 
because it's more young), and it grows too. Let me know please why this 
is a good - such enormous modules number for one task? In this case I'd 
like to think noone from them is clever and bugs free. That's enough one 
or two clever modules like in Python, that even could be included into 
standart distribution.

Ask your Python friends where such a similar list exists. :)
Python may be newer, but Perl is more mature, and here to stay.
Remember "new coke", and how long we had that. (If you're old enough
to remember that fiasco.)
 

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Sano Babu]

>> Can you reveal anymore about this, as I read it on stonehenge too.

> > Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> > Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.

 Does Randal write Comedy  stuff as well? It would be a best seller
 amongst Perl Programmers I gues.. :)
 
> > See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl
> > training!
> 



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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

On Thursday 30 Sep 2004 13:19, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> > "John" == John W Krahn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> John> You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third
> edition John> of Programming Perl.
>
> Actually, it's worse than that.  I contributed to it, but wasn't credited
> for it or paid for it.

Can you reveal anymore about this, as I read it on stonehenge too.

>
> John>   Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl
> John> Objects, References & Modules_  ;-)
>
> Yes, or Learning Perl.  Both good books, from what I hear.  I dunno,
> I write'em, not read 'em. :)

Ha, this is great.

>
> --
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> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl
> training!

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Craig Harmon]

I love your sense of humor! Made my morning.
Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
"John" == John W Krahn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

John> You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third edition
John> of Programming Perl.
Actually, it's worse than that.  I contributed to it, but wasn't credited
for it or paid for it.
John>   Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl
John> Objects, References & Modules_  ;-)
Yes, or Learning Perl.  Both good books, from what I hear.  I dunno,
I write'em, not read 'em. :)

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "John" == John W Krahn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

John> You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third edition
John> of Programming Perl.

Actually, it's worse than that.  I contributed to it, but wasn't credited
for it or paid for it.

John>   Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl
John> Objects, References & Modules_  ;-)

Yes, or Learning Perl.  Both good books, from what I hear.  I dunno,
I write'em, not read 'em. :)

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[JupiterHost.Net]

Wiggins d Anconia wrote:

I like this thread, lots of opinions + not too many flames = productive 
learning
U ignorant piece of uh sorry

hehe good one :)
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RE: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[NYIMI Jose \(BMB\)]

> -Original Message-
> From: Wiggins d Anconia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:38 PM
> To: JupiterHost.Net; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about 
> Python and says Perl is old news.
> 
> 
> > My what long lines you have :)
> > 
> > > It may not be commercial grade but, who of us writes commerical
> applications all the time. 
> > 
> > I do mostly, private corporate backends mostly among other 
> things :) I 
> > use it for the quick tasks and simple scripts also of course. (the 
> > projects never end the same as durability and ability)
> > 
> > And cPanel (http://cpanel.net) is mostly perl for instance. I'd say 
> > that's pretty commercial seeing as how many webhosts use it.
> > 
> > An associate of mine worked for/does consulting for a nationwide
> > communications provider that uses all perl for the website, 
> and backend 
> > employee/customer/support/work order/materials handling/etc etc.
> > 
> > Apple's website uses perl last I heard (the .adp extension is their
> > special build of it)
> > 
> > That's just 4 that I knew off off the top of my head.
> 
>http://perl.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/perl/news/success_stories.html
>http://poe.perl.org/?Organizations_Using_POE
>
>Those are just a few more...

Indeed !
http://masonhq.com/?MasonPoweredSites

Plus more ...



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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Wiggins d Anconia]

> My what long lines you have :)
> 
> > It may not be commercial grade but, who of us writes commerical
applications all the time. 
> 
> I do mostly, private corporate backends mostly among other things :)
> I use it for the quick tasks and simple scripts also of course. (the 
> projects never end the same as durability and ability)
> 
> And cPanel (http://cpanel.net) is mostly perl for instance.
> I'd say that's pretty commercial seeing as how many webhosts use it.
> 
> An associate of mine worked for/does consulting for a nationwide 
> communications provider that uses all perl for the website, and backend 
> employee/customer/support/work order/materials handling/etc etc.
> 
> Apple's website uses perl last I heard (the .adp extension is their 
> special build of it)
> 
> That's just 4 that I knew off off the top of my head.

http://perl.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/perl/news/success_stories.html
http://poe.perl.org/?Organizations_Using_POE

Those are just a few more...

> 
> Perhaps you meant commercial grade as in you don't have to spend 
> thousands of dollars on a devleopment suite (hint hint Microsoft) and 
> hire a team of engineers to keep it running (hint hint PHP), in that 
> case I'd agree ;p
> 
> One thing my associate says that I agree with that may help with the 
> language blues is be proud of perl! When you do web apps in perl, use 
> .pl instead of .cgi. Show some pride man!! If you're host can't add one 
> line to apache conf to be able to serve .pl files then get a new host.
> 

I say drop the extension completely, no one needs to know what your
implementation is, as long as it works.

> [shameless plug] go to jupiterhost.net we *love* Perl [/shameless plug]
> 
> I like this thread, lots of opinions + not too many flames = productive 
> learning
>

U ignorant piece of uh sorry
 
> Just my .02
> 
> Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net
> 

http://danconia.org

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

JupiterHost.Net said:
> My what long lines you have :)
>
>> It may not be commercial grade but, who of us writes commerical
>> applications all the time.
>
> I do mostly, private corporate backends mostly among other things :)
> I use it for the quick tasks and simple scripts also of course. (the
> projects never end the same as durability and ability)
>
> And cPanel (http://cpanel.net) is mostly perl for instance.
> I'd say that's pretty commercial seeing as how many webhosts use it.
>
> An associate of mine worked for/does consulting for a nationwide
> communications provider that uses all perl for the website, and backend
> employee/customer/support/work order/materials handling/etc etc.
>
> Apple's website uses perl last I heard (the .adp extension is their
> special build of it)
>
> That's just 4 that I knew off off the top of my head.
>
> Perhaps you meant commercial grade as in you don't have to spend
> thousands of dollars on a devleopment suite (hint hint Microsoft) and
> hire a team of engineers to keep it running (hint hint PHP), in that
> case I'd agree ;p
>
> One thing my associate says that I agree with that may help with the
> language blues is be proud of perl! When you do web apps in perl, use
> .pl instead of .cgi. Show some pride man!! If you're host can't add one
> line to apache conf to be able to serve .pl files then get a new host.

I agree.

>
> [shameless plug] go to jupiterhost.net we *love* Perl [/shameless plug]
>
> I like this thread, lots of opinions + not too many flames = productive
> learning

Again, I agree.


More examples please

>
> Just my .02
>
> Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net
>
>
>
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>  
>
>
>


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[JupiterHost.Net]

My what long lines you have :)
It may not be commercial grade but, who of us writes commerical applications all the time. 
I do mostly, private corporate backends mostly among other things :)
I use it for the quick tasks and simple scripts also of course. (the 
projects never end the same as durability and ability)

And cPanel (http://cpanel.net) is mostly perl for instance.
I'd say that's pretty commercial seeing as how many webhosts use it.
An associate of mine worked for/does consulting for a nationwide 
communications provider that uses all perl for the website, and backend 
employee/customer/support/work order/materials handling/etc etc.

Apple's website uses perl last I heard (the .adp extension is their 
special build of it)

That's just 4 that I knew off off the top of my head.
Perhaps you meant commercial grade as in you don't have to spend 
thousands of dollars on a devleopment suite (hint hint Microsoft) and 
hire a team of engineers to keep it running (hint hint PHP), in that 
case I'd agree ;p

One thing my associate says that I agree with that may help with the 
language blues is be proud of perl! When you do web apps in perl, use 
.pl instead of .cgi. Show some pride man!! If you're host can't add one 
line to apache conf to be able to serve .pl files then get a new host.

[shameless plug] go to jupiterhost.net we *love* Perl [/shameless plug]
I like this thread, lots of opinions + not too many flames = productive 
learning

Just my .02
Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

John W. Krahn said:
> Gavin Henry wrote:
>> Randal L. Schwartz said:
>>>
>>>Remember "new coke", and how long we had that. (If you're old enough
>>>to remember that fiasco.)
>>
>> Again, thanks for this. My morale is now completely topped up, so I am
>> going to shell out for Programming Perl, although I do have the CD
>> Bookshelf 3.0 (better than 4.0)
>
> You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third edition of
> Programming Perl.  Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl Objects,
> References & Modules_  ;-)

Quick, where's my Mastercard...

>
>
> John
> --
> use Perl;
> program
> fulfillment
>
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>
>


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[John W. Krahn]

Gavin Henry wrote:
Randal L. Schwartz said:
Remember "new coke", and how long we had that. (If you're old enough
to remember that fiasco.)
Again, thanks for this. My morale is now completely topped up, so I am
going to shell out for Programming Perl, although I do have the CD
Bookshelf 3.0 (better than 4.0)
You might hurt his feelings, he didn't contribute to the third edition of 
Programming Perl.  Better to buy his latest book _Learning Perl Objects, 
References & Modules_  ;-)

John
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

Randal L. Schwartz said:
>> "Gavin" == Gavin Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Wow I didn't know that you read this list. I am learning from your
book and I am catching up with all the columns you have ever published on
your site.


I am actually getting paid to learn Python now, and frankly it looks
really ugly, I like the way Perl flows and I can *read* it, unlike what
many people say.

>
> Gavin> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk
> Gavin> to say I shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is
> Gavin> better.
>
> Perl is more powerful.  Python is simpler.  Python is for people
> who don't want to master a language -- just use it casually.

I have that feeling now, one person (the one paying me to learn Python)
said they tried Perl about 10 years ago and couldn't really it and
understand RE. Well, your comment kind of sums him up. I have just bought
"Mastering RE from O'reilly", so I don't get scared of them :-)

The only reason I might find Python interesting is that Fedora uses it for
all the sys-admin utils, so I can help with those. (I am
http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry so I have an interest in Fedora)

>
> However, if you're gonna spend two or more hours a day hacking code,
> Perl is definitely the right place to be.  Still.

I'm almost at that level, but I should be doing other jobs, but I can't
seem to pull myself out if Vi to do technical documentations etc ;-)

>
> Those Python weenies are all just casual programmers complaining
> that for Perl, "with great power comes great responsibility".  Let'em.

Ha. That was a very politically correct response ;-)

>
> Perl's support only grows.  I used to be able to follow the CPAN "new
> modules list" by examining the daily run at search.cpan.org/recent.
> But no more.  Look at all the new modules just in the past *seven*
> days.  (It's typically a full web page for each day!) If that doesn't
> show you an intense activity in the Perl community, I really don't
> know what else I could show you.

The fact you replied is enough.

>
> Ask your Python friends where such a similar list exists. :)

He tried to show me a page on Zope's site for modules etc., but no way
does it beat CPAN or:

perl -MCPAN -e shell

>
> Python may be newer, but Perl is more mature, and here to stay.

Yes.

>
> Remember "new coke", and how long we had that. (If you're old enough
> to remember that fiasco.)


Again, thanks for this. My morale is now completely topped up, so I am
going to shell out for Programming Perl, although I do have the CD
Bookshelf 3.0 (better than 4.0)


Lastly, I just want to say that these kind of responses are what I love
about the open source etc. communities. Everyone is friendly (give or
take) and as long as you ask sensible questions, people will chat. After
all, we are all people.

If fact, this gives me the excuse to say why I am hooked to Linux and OSS.
When I setup my Linux company: http://www.suretecsystems.com I e-mailed
Linus to ask if Tux was registered to him, as the original company name
was going to be Inventux Solutions Ltd. Lo and behold he replied, with a
kind, "Nope, go ahead".

Well, from that day I have been hooked. Would Bill Gates answer a personal
e-mail? Would he f**k...

Thanks,

Gavin.

>
> --
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> 0095
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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>
>
>


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Gavin" == Gavin Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Gavin> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk
Gavin> to say I shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is
Gavin> better.

Perl is more powerful.  Python is simpler.  Python is for people
who don't want to master a language -- just use it casually.

However, if you're gonna spend two or more hours a day hacking code,
Perl is definitely the right place to be.  Still.

Those Python weenies are all just casual programmers complaining
that for Perl, "with great power comes great responsibility".  Let'em.

Perl's support only grows.  I used to be able to follow the CPAN "new
modules list" by examining the daily run at search.cpan.org/recent.
But no more.  Look at all the new modules just in the past *seven*
days.  (It's typically a full web page for each day!) If that doesn't
show you an intense activity in the Perl community, I really don't
know what else I could show you.

Ask your Python friends where such a similar list exists. :)

Python may be newer, but Perl is more mature, and here to stay.

Remember "new coke", and how long we had that. (If you're old enough
to remember that fiasco.)

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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

On Wednesday 29 Sep 2004 03:19, you wrote:
> You know, I'm kinda going through a similar thing. I wrote a script to
> search for users in an LDAP directory and update an attribute at the same
> time. I decided to write it in Perl because it looked so easy. And, it was.
> Works like a champ. Being new to Perl, and this was my first script, I was
> amazed at the power in a short amount of code. I've written in C, C++,
> Java, Lisp, Ada, Modula-2, Prolog, Pascal, and none of these are as easy as
> Perl (although Java is nice).
>
> However, my co-worker, who is familiar with JSP, began writing an HTML form
> to collect input data to pass to the script. We found that JSP and Perl
> didn't mix very well. In fact, we are still having trouble getting the two
> to integrate (probably ignorance hold us back).
>
> What's the point? The point is that sometimes a language choice defines an
> architectural choice. For example, Java implies that you need a JVM to run
> on the host OS (or browser). If Windows were my primary OS and I was
> writing a commerical application, I might think twice about Java. If the
> application must be cross-OS compatible, then Java is a good choice.
>
> For my script, I wish my co-worker and I had done our research ahead of
> time. We just didn't know...in fact, we still don't. But, we can't make an
> informed decision without the facts.
>
> Probably didn't help you much but, take heart in this. CGI isn't going
> anywhere soon. Millions of web pages use CGI and every web server supports
> it right out of the box. Perl is so easy to code and CPAN offers a world of
> scripts. I have seen Perl script writers whip out code in minutes that
> takes others days. It may not be commercial grade but, who of us writes
> commerical applications all the time. 90% of the time, I'm trying to
> accomplish a simple task or test a theory. You can't beat Perl for that.

Agreed. Thanks for this. My morale is up, but it's looking like I might be 
getting paid to learn Python, which is a bonus, but my heart is with Perl.

The more the better I now say!!!

>
> Gavin Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
> shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
>
> Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to
> learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared
> things up.
>
> When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash),
> when I look at a Python script, ugh.
>
> I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl, Python
> seems to be much better suited/supported (for wx) and I couldn't find very
> many docs for wxperl. What else is good looking to use?
>
> I love CPAN.
>
> Basically, my morale is getting low and I need a boost from you guys. Perl
> isn't old is it?
>
> I am on the right path?
>
> Be kind ;-)
>
> Thanks all,
>
> Gavin.
>
> --
> Just getting into the best language ever...
> Fancy a [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just ask!!!

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Drue Reeves]

You know, I'm kinda going through a similar thing. I wrote a script to search for 
users in an LDAP directory and update an attribute at the same time. I decided to 
write it in Perl because it looked so easy. And, it was. Works like a champ. Being new 
to Perl, and this was my first script, I was amazed at the power in a short amount of 
code. I've written in C, C++, Java, Lisp, Ada, Modula-2, Prolog, Pascal, and none of 
these are as easy as Perl (although Java is nice).
 
However, my co-worker, who is familiar with JSP, began writing an HTML form to collect 
input data to pass to the script. We found that JSP and Perl didn't mix very well. In 
fact, we are still having trouble getting the two to integrate (probably ignorance 
hold us back).
 
What's the point? The point is that sometimes a language choice defines an 
architectural choice. For example, Java implies that you need a JVM to run on the host 
OS (or browser). If Windows were my primary OS and I was writing a commerical 
application, I might think twice about Java. If the application must be cross-OS 
compatible, then Java is a good choice.
 
For my script, I wish my co-worker and I had done our research ahead of time. We just 
didn't know...in fact, we still don't. But, we can't make an informed decision without 
the facts.
 
Probably didn't help you much but, take heart in this. CGI isn't going anywhere soon. 
Millions of web pages use CGI and every web server supports it right out of the box. 
Perl is so easy to code and CPAN offers a world of scripts. I have seen Perl script 
writers whip out code in minutes that takes others days. It may not be commercial 
grade but, who of us writes commerical applications all the time. 90% of the time, I'm 
trying to accomplish a simple task or test a theory. You can't beat Perl for that.

Gavin Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.

Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to
learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared
things up.

When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash),
when I look at a Python script, ugh.

I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl, Python
seems to be much better suited/supported (for wx) and I couldn't find very
many docs for wxperl. What else is good looking to use?

I love CPAN.

Basically, my morale is getting low and I need a boost from you guys. Perl
isn't old is it?

I am on the right path?

Be kind ;-)

Thanks all,

Gavin.

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

On Tuesday 28 Sep 2004 22:11, John W. Krahn wrote:
> Gavin Henry wrote:
> > By the way, my program now works great thanks to your sub advice. I still
> > have some cleaning to do, like my resize sub abd incorporating file tests
> > etc.
> >
> > You can see how bad my program is at:
> >
> > http://www.perl.me.uk
> >
> > It's called ebaypics
> >
> > Advice from you in a new thread, would be very appreciated.
>
> Don't put quotes around variables.
>
> Found in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.2/pod/perlfaq4.pod
> What's wrong with always quoting "$vars"?
>
> perldoc perldata


Thanks I will update with your comments.
>
> Don't use '&' with subroutine calls.
>
> Found in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.2/pod/perlfaq7.pod
> What's the difference between calling a function as &foo and foo()?
>
> perldoc perlsub
>
> > # Generate weblinks
> > sub links {
> > my ($url, @list) = @_;
> > my @return;
> > foreach (@list) {
> >  push @return, "$url/$_\n";
> > }
> > return @return;
> > }
> >
> > # Put the generated weblinks from the subroutine links into an array
> > my @email_links = links($website, @thumbs);
>
> This is what map() was invented for:
>
> my @email_links = map "$website/$_\n", @thumbs;
>
>
>
> John
> --
> use Perl;
> program
> fulfillment

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[John W. Krahn]

Gavin Henry wrote:
By the way, my program now works great thanks to your sub advice. I still
have some cleaning to do, like my resize sub abd incorporating file tests
etc.
You can see how bad my program is at:
http://www.perl.me.uk
It's called ebaypics
Advice from you in a new thread, would be very appreciated.
Don't put quotes around variables.
Found in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.2/pod/perlfaq4.pod
   What's wrong with always quoting "$vars"?
perldoc perldata
Don't use '&' with subroutine calls.
Found in /usr/lib/perl5/5.8.2/pod/perlfaq7.pod
   What's the difference between calling a function as &foo and foo()?
perldoc perlsub

# Generate weblinks
sub links {
my ($url, @list) = @_;
my @return;
foreach (@list) {
 push @return, "$url/$_\n";
}
return @return;
}
# Put the generated weblinks from the subroutine links into an array
my @email_links = links($website, @thumbs);
This is what map() was invented for:
my @email_links = map "$website/$_\n", @thumbs;

John
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[John W. Krahn]

Gavin Henry wrote:
I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
Fortran, Cobol, Lisp, C and Basic are older and people still use them.
There are always people who will say that X is better then Y (and people who 
will say that Y is better then X) and maybe for them it is.  It could be that 
they don't fully understand X and Y (and A, B, C and D) and are making a 
judgment on limited knowledge.  It could be that their particular 
circumstances are more conducive to using Y instead of X.

As a professional programmer you should learn many languages and use the best 
one for the circumstances at hand.  :-)  IMHO

John
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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gabor Urban]

On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 13:20, Gavin Henry wrote: 
> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
> shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
THese days Python is gaining support in the field.  But I do think it is
mainly hype.

I do think it is not the question of programming language. Python has
its merits, some good points which are not implemented in Perl. BUT
Do not be confused you do your code, so you can be smarter than Python.

Gabaux

PS: I do programming in both languages for living. 


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

David Garamond said:
> Gavin Henry wrote:
>> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
>> shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
>
> My Good Lord, where have you been? Python is _already_ old news. Ruby,
> baby! :-)
>
>> I am on the right path?
>
> The right path is probably to learn them all, and pick whichever
> satisfies you the most. Or use the right tool for the right job.

That famous advice. I will have enough tools under my belt soon to make
that decision.

>
> I know not everybody have the time to learn new programming languages
> every few months. But frankly I think that's the best advice I can give
> you. Learning new programming languages will make you a better
> programmer, and it will asnwer your own question on whether you should
> continue using language X, use both X and Y, or move on to Y completely.

Agreed.

>
> Here's my own experience, hopefully it can help you. I know Perl since
> 1997. It has taught me _a lot_ (about programming, about the hacking
> culture, about other languages). Then I started to be interested in
> Python around 2000. Despite 1-2 years trying to familiarize and use
> Python, it never really got to me. I guess I never enjoy programming in
> that language. Nowadays I very rarely use Python at all. I install
> Python mostly just to run BitTorrent.

Likewise, except Fedora needs it for a lot of things (I'm
http://FedoraNEWS.ORG/ghenry)

>
> Then I started to be interested in Ruby in 2001. This I like. But
> despite promising myself to replace Perl with Ruby, today I still
> program like 50% : 50% in Ruby : Perl. There are just some things that I
> can write much faster and more convenient using Perl. Especially when
> writing one liners or when I can just use one or two CPAN modules and
> get the job done.

CPAN is the best.

>
> And then there's PHP. I use (or have to use it) since 1999. Despite
> swearing several times never to use PHP again, and cursing every time I
> have to code many lines in it, today I am still stuck with PHP at times.
>
> I found that, once you learn enough Perl, you just can't let it go
> completely. Perl and CPAN are too damn useful :-)

This is another common reason I have read...people always come back to Perl.

Gavin.

>
> --
> dave
>
>


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

Wiggins d Anconia said:
>> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
>> shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
>>
>
> I'm impressed, come to the Midwest in the US, around here they have only
> heard of M$ and Cobol.  Ironically, Python is showing its age, just look
> at Ruby. Of course Perl 6/Parrot stands to make all of the discussion
> moot.

Yeah, that will shut them all up.

By the way, my program now works great thanks to your sub advice. I still
have some cleaning to do, like my resize sub abd incorporating file tests
etc.

You can see how bad my program is at:

http://www.perl.me.uk

It's called ebaypics

Advice from you in a new thread, would be very appreciated.

Gavin.



> 
>
> http://danconia.org
>


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[David Garamond]

Gavin Henry wrote:
I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
My Good Lord, where have you been? Python is _already_ old news. Ruby, 
baby! :-)

I am on the right path?
The right path is probably to learn them all, and pick whichever 
satisfies you the most. Or use the right tool for the right job.

I know not everybody have the time to learn new programming languages 
every few months. But frankly I think that's the best advice I can give 
you. Learning new programming languages will make you a better 
programmer, and it will asnwer your own question on whether you should 
continue using language X, use both X and Y, or move on to Y completely.

Here's my own experience, hopefully it can help you. I know Perl since 
1997. It has taught me _a lot_ (about programming, about the hacking 
culture, about other languages). Then I started to be interested in 
Python around 2000. Despite 1-2 years trying to familiarize and use 
Python, it never really got to me. I guess I never enjoy programming in 
that language. Nowadays I very rarely use Python at all. I install 
Python mostly just to run BitTorrent.

Then I started to be interested in Ruby in 2001. This I like. But 
despite promising myself to replace Perl with Ruby, today I still 
program like 50% : 50% in Ruby : Perl. There are just some things that I 
can write much faster and more convenient using Perl. Especially when 
writing one liners or when I can just use one or two CPAN modules and 
get the job done.

And then there's PHP. I use (or have to use it) since 1999. Despite 
swearing several times never to use PHP again, and cursing every time I 
have to code many lines in it, today I am still stuck with PHP at times.

I found that, once you learn enough Perl, you just can't let it go 
completely. Perl and CPAN are too damn useful :-)

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Wiggins d Anconia]

> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
> shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
>

I'm impressed, come to the Midwest in the US, around here they have only
heard of M$ and Cobol.  Ironically, Python is showing its age, just look
at Ruby. Of course Perl 6/Parrot stands to make all of the discussion moot.
 


http://danconia.org

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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

Paul Kraus said:
>> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
>> shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
> Lets pretend we are mechanics we have this one tool that was passed on
> down from generation to generation. It is our very very very favorite
> tool.
> No matter what we do its simply not possible to do our jobs with that one
> tool.
>
> A good programmer in my opinion does not play favorites. Best tool for
> the job and all that :)

Agreed. But you need to start your base knowledge with a good one, like
Perl :-)

>
>
>> Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to
>> learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared
>> things up.
> It's your first real language.From here on out everything is easier to
> learn. It all becomes a matter of learning the syntax :) Congrats :)

I am beginning to learn that.

>
>> When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash),
>> when I look at a Python script, ugh.
>> I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl,
>> Python
>> seems to be much better suited/supported (for wx) and I couldn't find
>> very
>> many docs for wxperl. What else is good looking to use?
> Depends on what your trying to do GASP even vb.net has some uses :)
>> I love CPAN.
> CPAN IS THE BOMB. hands down its why Perl is my primary tool set.

Nothing easier than:

perl -MCPAN -e shell

>
>> I am on the right path?
> Depends on if you limit yourself to Perl since it was your first
> language. If not then you are on the right path.

Agreed. Thanks.

>
> HTH,
> Paul Kraus
>


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[Gavin Henry]

JupiterHost.Net said:
>
>
> Gavin Henry wrote:
>> I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
>
> Me too :)
>
>> shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
>
> Python is different not necessarily better.
>
>> Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to
>> learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared
>> things up.
>
> Because Perl rocks!

:-)

>
>> When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash),
>> when I look at a Python script, ugh.
>>
>> I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl,
>> Python
>> seems to be much better suited/supported (for wx) and I couldn't find
>> very
>> many docs for wxperl. What else is good looking to use?
>
> have a look at tk at cpan

It's not very pretty though.

>
>> I love CPAN.
>
> Another plus over many other languages. Perl has many advantages over
> other languages.
> 1) Its readily available in most systems as its alreayd installed.
> 2) Its capable of any task any other language is
> 3) It can be run persistantly or as part of apache as needed but is not
> necessary.
> 4) If it is part of apache and you expand its functionality by adding a
> module you don't break apache half the time like another bloated
> language who name I won't say (its initials are PHP ;p)
> 5)
>
>> Basically, my morale is getting low and I need a boost from you guys.
>> Perl
>> isn't old is it?
>
> It is mature, that is one thing that makes it great, less "oh crap
> upgrade to 4.3.8 or you're server is vulnerable" like the other
> unmentionable language I hinted at earlier.
>
>> I am on the right path?
>
> Yes you are padawan. One thing that makes other languages appeal to
> people is;t anythgin to do with the language itself. Rather its the
> developers and there wise use of nice design. For example, phpbb is an
> excellent forum. There are tons of other forums that have the same
> functionality but it just looks slick so people just use it.
> Of course the point being is that its html and css that make people
> choose it, not PHP.
>
> With perl, we seem to tend toward, "here';s how you do that" and not put
> much into the presentation (IE html/css, etc) and therefore it *looks*
> clunkier on the outside.
>
> So lets all keep using Perl and make it look nice so it sells!!!
>
>> Be kind ;-)
>
> use The::Force;

Ha, thanks mate.

>
>> Thanks all,
>
> No woriies :)
>
> Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net
>
>> Gavin.
>
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>
>
>


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Re: Becoming Disenheartened - Everyone talks about Python and says Perl is old news.

[JupiterHost.Net]

Gavin Henry wrote:
I really like Perl, but lately everywhere I seem to go and talk to say I
Me too :)
shouldn't be learning Perl as it's old and Python is better.
Python is different not necessarily better.
Since starting to learn Perl though, every other language I started to
learn/t, C, PHP etc. seem to make more sense now, as Perl has cleared
things up.
Because Perl rocks!
When I look at Perl, I can understand it (it kind of looks like bash),
when I look at a Python script, ugh.
I have been also trying to do some gui work with perl using wxperl, Python
seems to be much better suited/supported (for wx) and I couldn't find very
many docs for wxperl. What else is good looking to use?
have a look at tk at cpan
I love CPAN.
Another plus over many other languages. Perl has many advantages over 
other languages.
1) Its readily available in most systems as its alreayd installed.
2) Its capable of any task any other language is
3) It can be run persistantly or as part of apache as needed but is not 
necessary.
4) If it is part of apache and you expand its functionality by adding a 
module you don't break apache half the time like another bloated 
language who name I won't say (its initials are PHP ;p)
5)

Basically, my morale is getting low and I need a boost from you guys. Perl
isn't old is it?
It is mature, that is one thing that makes it great, less "oh crap 
upgrade to 4.3.8 or you're server is vulnerable" like the other 
unmentionable language I hinted at earlier.

I am on the right path?
Yes you are padawan. One thing that makes other languages appeal to 
people is;t anythgin to do with the language itself. Rather its the 
developers and there wise use of nice design. For example, phpbb is an 
excellent forum. There are tons of other forums that have the same 
functionality but it just looks slick so people just use it.
Of course the point being is that its html and css that make people 
choose it, not PHP.

With perl, we seem to tend toward, "here';s how you do that" and not put 
much into the presentation (IE html/css, etc) and therefore it *looks* 
clunkier on the outside.

So lets all keep using Perl and make it look nice so it sells!!!
Be kind ;-)
use The::Force;
Thanks all,
No woriies :)
Lee.M - JupiterHost.Net
Gavin.
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