Re: Proposal for killer app
Nice morning read ... Normally I'd argue for a don't feed the trolls-policy but I guess in nate's case an exception has to be made ; ). I know nothing in my RSS reader is going to crack me up as good as nate just did ; ). -- Felix -- http://www.thinkingphp.org http://www.fg-webdesign.de Mariano Iglesias wrote: Well, developing applications since XXX is not bad, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you are outdated, but that has nothing to do with the conversation anyway, as Nate pointed out. Furthermore, most (not all) of the people who say: I develop C, C++, C#, ASM, ASP, Perl, Delphi, VB, etc. etc. barely know each language to the level considered acceptable. Just knowing how to do a print on VB, or a cout on C++ doesn't mean you really know how to program. But then again, this is a pointless debate. Let him go get himself another framework. People with that kind of attitude only harms open source communities, and the best thing that can happen is that they stay away. -MI --- Remember, smart coders answer ten questions for every question they ask. So be smart, be cool, and share your knowledge. BAKE ON! blog: http://www.MarianoIglesias.com.ar -Mensaje original- De: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de BlenderStyle Enviado el: Martes, 10 de Abril de 2007 01:37 a.m. Para: Cake PHP Asunto: Re: Proposal for killer app Also, that guy saying he's been developing apps since 1987. That's lame. Do you remember apps in 1987? It's a whole new ballgame now. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On 10 abr, 05:16, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip ...(and most of us can form coherent English sentences). I don't understand all that laboca wrote, and it's clear there are some misunderstandings and / or misconceptions of what cake is; but I'm not much of a fan of the above comment. WRT the topic, I don't understand why those looking for a killer app to use as an example don't just look at the bakery *source*. It's a complete and constantly-being-worked-on app you can download from cakeforge (via svn) install, pick apart and learn from. Was that already suggested in one of the 20+ replies I haven't read? Cheers, AD --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Andy, the point of that comment was that even people on this list who don't speak English as a first language still make an effort to be understood, whereas this guy, for the most part, was just ranting incoherently. On Apr 10, 3:26 am, AD7six [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10 abr, 05:16, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip ...(and most of us can form coherent English sentences). I don't understand all that laboca wrote, and it's clear there are some misunderstandings and / or misconceptions of what cake is; but I'm not much of a fan of the above comment. WRT the topic, I don't understand why those looking for a killer app to use as an example don't just look at the bakery *source*. It's a complete and constantly-being-worked-on app you can download from cakeforge (via svn) install, pick apart and learn from. Was that already suggested in one of the 20+ replies I haven't read? Cheers, AD --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
I just would like to say that I totally agree with a good sample app... CMS would be a real world example. I'm a developer of desktop apps since 1987 (C++,C#,ASM,VB,Delphi,. for windows, unix,..) From time to time I used PHP for some small projects... So I'm always looking for some good PHP framework. CakePHP seems to be a good choice... but there are some points I really don't understand - the CakePHP Website(s) is/are an major example for horrible design (don't want to say corporate design,... ) - a lot of peaces of code and domains are hacked together.. - So, the main menu of CakePHP is called Google so, everybody who is new to Cake will have a lot of problems where to find the stuff he needs to become familiar with cake. even the wiki was switched off... (we don't need documentation..(?)) - rest of documentation I found is awful, organized=null - a lot of code snippets... Ok,.. so let's have a look if we can find some tutorials. (Learn) The outdated bakery tutorial... yes that makes sense... The other tutorials in screencast don't make sense at all. (At least not for developers who already know what's an editor) Next: goto IBM! They have an idea what's inside of cake... Cake Bookstore... what's this? Nedd some cash from Amazon? Read: ahh... the Google listing...:-) and so on... Why use CakePHP?... because they have an Active, friendly community, and please don't forget to donate... Where to donate I found before I first could have a look what's inside cake .. the group can be found at google... (that's real corporate design!.. always look at different places to find what you are looking for..) So, as an developer, I would now search for some clean running sample apps. But there are none of them... To all the cake-gurus who are saying: NOO, we don't need a killa app, Cake is just for developers!!! You really have no idea what you are talking about... (you must be living in a real cake world) What do you think what people (developers) are doing?? They build websites and web based applications! Take one of the books offered in CakePHP and read! You have some kind of interaction by users, databases, calculations... and at least dynamic content presented to the output. That's more than 90% of what applications do... and so that's what developers do with PHP. Yes, and even a cms is doing most kind of this stuff. Believe it... (take a look at CakePHP: othAuth, Upload, Pagination, ..) Don't try to tell that you are just developing stuff like streaming realtime data processing by PHP Ok, you still think CakepPHP website ist a glance of usability and information? The documentation is perfect? The tutorials are state of the art? .. and there is no need of a good sample application? C'mon... ya can't be blind. ... take a look at the CakePHP Menue (Google)... and read the lines why people don't use CakePHP (it takes too much time ... not reading, searching all the CakePHP docs!) Developing is an act of going straight forward and not hassle around ... If CakePHP would be a company developing websites/applications... and you would look at the website to find out what they offer Would you place an order? (organized=null, organized:structured==null, places=many,... that's the company I like..!) I think there is a lot to do to become CakePHP as best Framework. at the moment is looks for developers new to cake like CakePHP the best Patchwork... I'm sure a lot of you will say some very bad words about what I wrote. But before you shout out loud... think of what I wrote. A lot of developers go away from cake when they first saw cake and they don't put a line here why they don't use cake.. just my 2 cents worth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On 4/10/07, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..snip..] just my 2 cents worth And you can keep them. Gay Perry:Look up idiot in the dictionary. You know what you'll find? Harry Lockhart: A picture of me? Gay Perry:No! The definition of idiot. Which you f*g are! Haha, cacked myself reading your reply Nate. I wasn't going to bother replying to the loser, err, poster since it looked like a typical Slashdot troll-like e-mail, but I thought your reply was called for and far more entertaining to read :-) I'd love to know what exactly motivates someone like the super-leet programmer from the 60s to write an e-mail like that. What exactly do they gain from it? Apart from giving us all a good reason to abuse someone :-) Regards, Gonzalo --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Proposal for killer app
I'm not going to say any bad words. Just that if indeed some developers are going away, then you are most welcome to leave. Believe me, after reading all you had to say, the community is better of without you. -MI --- Remember, smart coders answer ten questions for every question they ask. So be smart, be cool, and share your knowledge. BAKE ON! blog: http://www.MarianoIglesias.com.ar -Mensaje original- De: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de laboca Enviado el: Lunes, 09 de Abril de 2007 10:43 p.m. Para: Cake PHP Asunto: Re: Proposal for killer app I'm sure a lot of you will say some very bad words about what I wrote. But before you shout out loud... think of what I wrote. A lot of developers go away from cake when they first saw cake and they don't put a line here why they don't use cake.. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Yeah, who knows. At least it was equal parts funny and obnoxious. On Apr 9, 11:30 pm, Gonzalo Servat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 4/10/07, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [..snip..] just my 2 cents worth And you can keep them. Gay Perry:Look up idiot in the dictionary. You know what you'll find? Harry Lockhart: A picture of me? Gay Perry:No! The definition of idiot. Which you f*g are! Haha, cacked myself reading your reply Nate. I wasn't going to bother replying to the loser, err, poster since it looked like a typical Slashdot troll-like e-mail, but I thought your reply was called for and far more entertaining to read :-) I'd love to know what exactly motivates someone like the super-leet programmer from the 60s to write an e-mail like that. What exactly do they gain from it? Apart from giving us all a good reason to abuse someone :-) Regards, Gonzalo --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Nate, you said it. I always appreciate your candidness. You're right. There's plenty out there to learn Cake. I'm doing pretty good with it. Besides, Cake is still fairly early in development. I mean, 1.1 is documented enough to get you off your feet for sure. I didn't even know what MVC was before I started, but the manual helped that. Also, that guy saying he's been developing apps since 1987. That's lame. Do you remember apps in 1987? It's a whole new ballgame now. On Apr 9, 8:16 pm, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 9, 9:43 pm, laboca [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just would like to say that I totally agree with a good sample app... CMS would be a real world example. Great, then go write one. But whether you write one or not, for the love of God, please just quit talking about it. I'm a developer of desktop apps since 1987 (C++,C#,ASM,VB,Delphi,. for windows, unix,..) ...That's totally relevant... I almost care. From time to time I used PHP for some small projects... So I'm always looking for some good PHP framework. CakePHP seems to be a good choice... but there are some points I really don't understand If you understand, things are as they are. If you do not understand, things are as they are. - Chinese Proverb - the CakePHP Website(s) is/are an major example for horrible design (don't want to say corporate design,... ) Well, that's your opinion. Again, not really relevant; I don't really care. - a lot of peaces of code and domains are hacked together.. - So, the main menu of CakePHP is called Google Okay, I'm not even completely sure what that means. so, everybody who is new to Cake will have a lot of problems where to find the stuff he needs to become familiar with cake. Oh, I'm sorry, I guess right in front of your face is too hard for you. even the wiki was switched off... (we don't need documentation..(?)) No, we do need documentation, and we have it. The problem with the wiki is that for as much good, useful content written by smart people that there was, there was an equal amount of misleading information written by people like you who didn't / don't have a clue as to what they're talking about, which ended up confusing more people than it helped. - rest of documentation I found is awful, organized=null - a lot of code snippets... Again, the idea that it is awful is your opinion, which we've already established that I don't care about. Neither should anyone else. Ok,.. so let's have a look if we can find some tutorials. (Learn) The outdated bakery tutorial... yes that makes sense... The other tutorials in screencast don't make sense at all. (At least not for developers who already know what's an editor) Next: goto IBM! They have an idea what's inside of cake... Yup, they do. We worked with some authors who were paid by IBM to write articles which we reviewed. It's called partnering. Cake Bookstore... what's this? Nedd some cash from Amazon? Uh, no we're an Open Source project, we do this in the hopes that people won't donate uh, hello? Read: ahh... the Google listing...:-) and so on... Why use CakePHP?... because they have an Active, friendly community, and please don't forget to donate... Where to donate I found before I first could have a look what's inside cake Again, I'm sorry that you have a problem seeing things right in front of you. .. the group can be found at google... (that's real corporate design!.. always look at different places to find what you are looking for..) So, as an developer, I would now search for some clean running sample apps. But there are none of them... Um, CakeForge. Oh, right, I forgot, you have that one problem. To all the cake-gurus who are saying: NOO, we don't need a killa app, Cake is just for developers!!! You really have no idea what you are talking about... Um... pot, kettle? What do you think what people (developers) are doing?? They build websites and web based applications! Take one of the books offered in CakePHP and read! You have some kind of interaction by users, databases, calculations... and at least dynamic content presented to the output. That's more than 90% of what applications do... and so that's what developers do with PHP. Yup, we have all kinds of good examples of that stuff already. Yes, and even a cms is doing most kind of this stuff. Believe it... (take a look at CakePHP: othAuth, Upload, Pagination, ..) Don't try to tell that you are just developing stuff like streaming realtime data processing by PHP Ok, you still think CakepPHP website ist a glance of usability and information? The documentation is perfect? The tutorials are state of the art? .. and there is no need of a good sample application? C'mon... ya can't be blind. Nope, we're not blind, but also not stupid (and most of us can form coherent English sentences).
Re: Proposal for killer app
These are great ideas flying around. I really do think that a simple but complete application would be really useful for new bakers - all things considered the manual + bakery + this group are a pretty damn good resource - BUT it can be hard pulling things together and integrating. Ideally it would be something useful (and actually a simple CMS is always useful) but that practically demonstrates how to tie it all together AND that also demonstrates best practice. I guess you would might want: * Users / Groups / Permissions (managed from within the app) * File manager for upload images / files * Page editor * Menu manager / navigation controller Now you can turn up your noses and say - just another CMS - but almost all the stuff I build at work needs these features, sometimes you add a shopping cart, sometimes a forum, sometimes a contacts DB etc... I also like the plugin / module idea - but if you made the demo thing above using them it might be too complex / abstracted for somebody trying to learn... i don't know. At the end of the day though, I think we all know that the best way to learn is just to start building and deal with problems one by one. (p.s. I'm currently building 2 apps - its not always easy, but it is worth it - I just wish I'd stumbled onto cake a year ago...) Cheers --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
That's a pretty short n' sweet list of what I think we would need, not anything more. Probably 99% of apps built will use this, or a modified version, of this functionality. I'm thinking we could call it our shake and bake pakage - all the ingredients are ready made to be baked into something more whole. Tane On 3/30/07, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are great ideas flying around. I really do think that a simple but complete application would be really useful for new bakers - all things considered the manual + bakery + this group are a pretty damn good resource - BUT it can be hard pulling things together and integrating. Ideally it would be something useful (and actually a simple CMS is always useful) but that practically demonstrates how to tie it all together AND that also demonstrates best practice. I guess you would might want: * Users / Groups / Permissions (managed from within the app) * File manager for upload images / files * Page editor * Menu manager / navigation controller Now you can turn up your noses and say - just another CMS - but almost all the stuff I build at work needs these features, sometimes you add a shopping cart, sometimes a forum, sometimes a contacts DB etc... I also like the plugin / module idea - but if you made the demo thing above using them it might be too complex / abstracted for somebody trying to learn... i don't know. At the end of the day though, I think we all know that the best way to learn is just to start building and deal with problems one by one. (p.s. I'm currently building 2 apps - its not always easy, but it is worth it - I just wish I'd stumbled onto cake a year ago...) Cheers --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On Mar 29, 3:44 pm, Loren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know the people who developed this framework make me look like a bonafide stooge. But all that coding savvy is going to waste if this spiffy framework remains an inscrutable tangle of half-baked documentation and shallow tutorials. Documentation is no fun (I hate writing it, we all hate writing it), but I believe it is KEY to the widespread adoption of CakePHP. Loren Ok... we're really getting away from the main thread here... but somehow I can't help it thinking that in the end... we're pushing that killer app idea somewhere. All this to say that... Loren has a good point. I got around CakePHP pretty quick because I had a strong IT background helping. Plus I will spend 2 days without sleep digging when there's interest. And then I was comfortable with the code (or php), comfortable with the pattern (MVC) and comfortable with the platform (web). I think my learning curve was pretty flat! Then I use to hangout in the IRC channel trying to do my bit and got quickly sick of it because of questions like what if I want to remove the cake logo. As Tane was saying from a different angle, we need to make sure documentation is kept and standards are followed religiously. I must admit the cake code is awesome! I'm a fair bit of a purist and I literally felt in love with it. The code is nice to a point that it could even be harmful for the project itself! Contributing back is not simple; suggestions are vetoe'ed without any further discussions, enhancement are left to die in trac, which btw is filled with users who raise a critical bug for the current stable version because some function doesn't do what THEY want, not realising they're not calling it properly. ... my point is, the code is very good, fairly documented, but kept on such a tight lead that is sometimes pisses me off like I'm sure it pisses others off. But I can live with that. *** However, beside the tutorial, there is no or very little 'official' documentation. I'm thinking about Once you understand that cake is great... what's next!!?, Building applications using cake..., Cake versus Joomla/Mambo/xoops/phpnuke... what's so different... What is bake, what isn't it for These are obvious to all/most of us... but not to everyone trying cake! This brings us back to the initial thread... the killer app. With all due respect to cake and the author of the thread, wordpress is a great blog, joomla a great news/content management, phpBB or vBuletin great forums, osCommerce or phpShop great shopping cart, and the list goes on and on and on... To eveyone who call Cake a CMS, I say you just didn't get it! This is to say (and this may sound a bit different from my previous posts in this thread) that Cake is not a cms, it's a framework; an advanced development toolkit for a web environment, likely to be used for projects. What projects need, what projects don't want to code again is; * Security/authentication (cake is missing docs/have incomplete implementations), * ORM (bugs raised in regards to that were fixed very quickly, congrats Nate!), * Caching (haven't looked into that aspect of cake much, but I believe caching the model might not be enough), * Session management (.NET is still way ahead... cookie or cookie- less...), * RAD (Cake is a great starting point, but over 60% of admin views are pretty much all the same!) It might even be worth having a big notice on cake's homepage saying Cake will not build a website FOR you, it will help YOU DO IT!. Anyways... sorry about the long post!... and.. that's my 2c btw... don't bother flaming! Seb. *** coming back to the code and contributing... judging by the length of posts, some of us CAN write here. Personally, a while ago I was even willing to put a few hours a week, sometimes a day to push things forward. But the process of convincing 'the project' something could be worth it down the track is just too time consuming). I gave up (and have been involved in open source projects before, never seen such a strong objection to change). So.. when I have the opportunity of doing something I'm good at (writing code or documentation) to help out or charge a few hundred $/h for my services... sometimes the choice is just too obvious! so anyway... again, my 2 c! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On Mar 29, 2:47 pm, Dr. Tarique Sani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just build it, damnit! :P Tarique Heheheh!! funny indeed! a little bit like a business I use to work for! They would talk about things for ages... and never make any decision which would involve long term risk, or require a vision! Successful businesses are a lot about taking risk? no! Businesses are a lot about taking intelligent/knowledgeable risks! Same here... build it?! build what? we don't even know what we're building! anyway... not flaming here, just explaining my views! ;) :oÞ Cheers, Seb. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Seb, I totally agree with you here, and again I start I never compared CakePHP *TO* a CMS, I only referenced other CMS's where they have a model of users contributing addon's to these systems using their API. I don't really want to bang on at the point, as someone has already said Just build it, but I just want to go over it just a little more. What I am now proposing, through the thoughts that you have all expressed here, is to build standard modules of code that people can use in their projects. For example, a user module we could provide pre-built controllers, models and views that actually consists of say a user MVC, group MVC, permission MVC and profile MVC tied into one package. At the main methods (add, delete, view, edit) plus additional login/logout methods and session handling would be there. However, the great thing about CakePHP is that anyone can come along and either take these and expand upon them, or ignore them totally and build their own solution - as our one might not fit their uses - but I think it would fit into 99% of situations. I'm not talking (at least now) about the whole package, but instead code that people have to still take and with some knowledge integrate into their own applications. Tane On 3/29/07, Seb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 29, 3:44 pm, Loren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know the people who developed this framework make me look like a bonafide stooge. But all that coding savvy is going to waste if this spiffy framework remains an inscrutable tangle of half-baked documentation and shallow tutorials. Documentation is no fun (I hate writing it, we all hate writing it), but I believe it is KEY to the widespread adoption of CakePHP. Loren Ok... we're really getting away from the main thread here... but somehow I can't help it thinking that in the end... we're pushing that killer app idea somewhere. All this to say that... Loren has a good point. I got around CakePHP pretty quick because I had a strong IT background helping. Plus I will spend 2 days without sleep digging when there's interest. And then I was comfortable with the code (or php), comfortable with the pattern (MVC) and comfortable with the platform (web). I think my learning curve was pretty flat! Then I use to hangout in the IRC channel trying to do my bit and got quickly sick of it because of questions like what if I want to remove the cake logo. As Tane was saying from a different angle, we need to make sure documentation is kept and standards are followed religiously. I must admit the cake code is awesome! I'm a fair bit of a purist and I literally felt in love with it. The code is nice to a point that it could even be harmful for the project itself! Contributing back is not simple; suggestions are vetoe'ed without any further discussions, enhancement are left to die in trac, which btw is filled with users who raise a critical bug for the current stable version because some function doesn't do what THEY want, not realising they're not calling it properly. ... my point is, the code is very good, fairly documented, but kept on such a tight lead that is sometimes pisses me off like I'm sure it pisses others off. But I can live with that. *** However, beside the tutorial, there is no or very little 'official' documentation. I'm thinking about Once you understand that cake is great... what's next!!?, Building applications using cake..., Cake versus Joomla/Mambo/xoops/phpnuke... what's so different... What is bake, what isn't it for These are obvious to all/most of us... but not to everyone trying cake! This brings us back to the initial thread... the killer app. With all due respect to cake and the author of the thread, wordpress is a great blog, joomla a great news/content management, phpBB or vBuletin great forums, osCommerce or phpShop great shopping cart, and the list goes on and on and on... To eveyone who call Cake a CMS, I say you just didn't get it! This is to say (and this may sound a bit different from my previous posts in this thread) that Cake is not a cms, it's a framework; an advanced development toolkit for a web environment, likely to be used for projects. What projects need, what projects don't want to code again is; * Security/authentication (cake is missing docs/have incomplete implementations), * ORM (bugs raised in regards to that were fixed very quickly, congrats Nate!), * Caching (haven't looked into that aspect of cake much, but I believe caching the model might not be enough), * Session management (.NET is still way ahead... cookie or cookie- less...), * RAD (Cake is a great starting point, but over 60% of admin views are pretty much all the same!) It might even be worth having a big notice on cake's homepage saying Cake will not build a website FOR you, it will help YOU DO IT!. Anyways... sorry about the long post!... and.. that's my 2c btw... don't bother flaming! Seb. *** coming
Re: Proposal for killer app
On 3/29/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I am now proposing, through the thoughts that you have all expressed here, is to build standard modules of code that people can use in their projects. Nate and I had been talking about this very thing yesterday on IM, where what is really needed is a commitment to a plugin architecture, so that ideas (such as standard user authentication modules) can start out as plugins external to the framework, then if they are effective enough they can be moved into the core. Ruby on Rails uses this to great effect and there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be stealing that idea and using it ourselves. Perhaps http://plugins.cakephp.org should spring into being, with an explanation of how plugins work and documentation on how to actually create a plugin. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
I think that's the best idea I've read in this entire thread! On Mar 29, 9:00 am, Chris Hartjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I am now proposing, through the thoughts that you have all expressed here, is to build standard modules of code that people can use in their projects. Nate and I had been talking about this very thing yesterday on IM, where what is really needed is a commitment to a plugin architecture, so that ideas (such as standard user authentication modules) can start out as plugins external to the framework, then if they are effective enough they can be moved into the core. Ruby on Rails uses this to great effect and there is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't be stealing that idea and using it ourselves. Perhapshttp://plugins.cakephp.orgshould spring into being, with an explanation of how plugins work and documentation on how to actually create a plugin. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark -http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard -http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On Mar 29, 2007, at 3:35 AM, Seb wrote: snip However, beside the tutorial, there is no or very little 'official' documentation. I'm thinking about Once you understand that cake is great... what's next!!?, Building applications using cake..., Cake versus Joomla/Mambo/xoops/phpnuke... what's so different... What is bake, what isn't it for These are obvious to all/most of us... but not to everyone trying cake! The manual, when you print it, is 141 pages. I don't think I'd consider that neither little nor no. The 1.2 manual is going to be even better, besides (hopefully not much bigger though). * Security/authentication (cake is missing docs/have incomplete implementations), http://manual.cakephp.org/chapter/sanitize http://manual.cakephp.org/chapter/request_handler http://manual.cakephp.org/chapter/security * ORM (bugs raised in regards to that were fixed very quickly, congrats Nate!), * Caching (haven't looked into that aspect of cake much, but I believe caching the model might not be enough), http://manual.cakephp.org/chapter/view_cache * Session management (.NET is still way ahead... cookie or cookie- less...), http://manual.cakephp.org/chapter/session * RAD (Cake is a great starting point, but over 60% of admin views are pretty much all the same!) No idea what that means. I think maybe you just need to look a little farther for what you need. -- John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Hello my fellow bakers! when I saw the subject of this thread I was ecstatic! I was really happy to see someone is actually thinking same thoughts I am. The number of replies told me the community is actually full of ideas of what this killer app might be! And then this! Just a lot of mambo jubmo with nothing useful! I was actually really pissed of at some ppl here that are so closed minded and they wont see beyond their noses! Now, as I understood the suggestion was not to actually make the killer app to make profit or to be the best app on the market. Maybe the term killer app is not appropriate. As I understood the point was making a good application, mainly for learning purposes. And there are other benefits too! I will explain this benefits in some simple points (damn I am sure this is going to be a long post :( ) 1. Making a complete application would really help new bakers to understand the framework better. If I see the correct (pay attention to the word correct) implementation of helpers, components, behaviors, plug-ins, etc... I would understand the framework better and I would learn quicker and with no fear I am abusing the framework and developing something in the way it was NOT ment to be developed. I have read many times how the documentation of cake is great... my ass! sorry my word and maybe I am not showing the respects I should to writers... but I am just saying the things the way they are! I am developing in php for more than 8 years. I was habituated to develop apps in certain ways, firstly procedural and In last couple of years I migrated to OOP and last couple of months I was diving in the cake framework. And I was having (still am) a lot of troubles understanding the way things work. The documentation sucks, there are only handful real-life examples of code. I need a lot of examples and implementation to understand things. I am sure I am not the only one. And only things that were useful to me were the podcasts for building the blog (btw I would really like to see more of the podcasts) and bake.php that have made me some pre-made/scaffolded MVCs! And that was it! And even for bake I haven't found a good tutorial! A application that would have all this implemented it would come VERY HANDY for learning purposes! 2. A killer app would help convincing developers that are between frameworks or to convince their bosses that mastering cake would bring benefits. Now, at the company where I was working before we were so caught up in work we had no time to waste on something it was not worth wasting on. We have developed our own framework (also based on PEAR modules) that took us (me) developing more than 8 months. But when I first read about cake I was excited and willing to throw away all the hard work and learning the new framework. Basically the MVC pattern that convinced me. But, there was another problem. How can I convince my boss that cakePHP deserves a deep look and consideration. I've read the list of all those features but the first thing that boss asked me: What can you build with it?.. and I replied promptly: Everything you like. It is so easy and painless!... The second thing they asked me: Can you show me some applications that are already made with cake?... I was without an answer. I am sure that there are many developers out there that are willing to switch to cake, but their bosses need some reassurance that investments in learning and implementation of such framework will pay off! A killer app or a finished app built with cake would help a lot! And yes. Who said that CMS is the only option to build a killer app. And who said that killer app have to be the best. I just need something completely made to learn from. this killer app could be: a CMS (I think CMS its the most complete app) a Forum (like phpBB,vBulletin or similar) a Classifieds system a shopping cart Digg like system CRM application Banner publishing system (like openAds - formerly known as phpAdsNew) Fully functioning blog or vlog etc! There are many ideas and I am sure some of you have some new ones. Please help build something that is in our interest and don't pick on someone who is willing to actually do something for all of us! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On Mar 29, 5:35 am, Seb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Session management (.NET is still way ahead... cookie or cookie- less...), ZOMG!!!1~! dotNET has teh l0s3r s3ssi0ns!!1!!one!! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On 3/29/07, Lion29 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Making a complete application would really help new bakers to understand the framework better. If I see the correct (pay attention to the word correct) implementation of helpers, components, behaviors, plug-ins, etc... I would understand the framework better and I would learn quicker and with no fear I am abusing the framework and developing something in the way it was NOT ment to be developed. I have read many times how the documentation of cake is great... my ass! sorry my word and maybe I am not showing the respects I should to writers... but I am just saying the things the way they are! Okay, this I can agree with. Having examples of a simple and well-designed application built using CakePHP is a good thing. I think I'm having issues with the term killer app because the last thing CakePHP needs is the label it's only good for building insert type of system killer app is systems. CakePHP is good for building MVC web applications. Is that a good summary? 2. A killer app would help convincing developers that are between frameworks or to convince their bosses that mastering cake would bring benefits. I thought that the goal here is to convince DEVELOPERS to use CakePHP, not convince their dimwitted, risk-averse bosses to be willing to use CakePHP. Look, I've had this argument with my current boss at work already. He at least gave me sound reasons for not using CakePHP for what we're doing because we're not building an MVC web application. If they don't trust you to make correct technology decisions, why the hell are you working for that person? You've been relegated to being a typist. I prefer to be a programmer who stands up for his right to choose his technology in the face of compelling evidence, even if that position makes me unpopular with bosses and people on this list. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Well, I've been reading this for the past few days and I am about to burst, so here goes. First of all, for all the I need something to convince my boss posts: The best way to convince your boss to use a certain tool is to build something *yourself* with it. I'm not sure how Look at what these other people built with Cake is going to help you any. That's like thinking that just because a carpenter built a house with a certain brand of hammer, that as long as I had the same kind of hammer, I can build the a house with the same quality and craftmanship. That's ridiculous. Instead, why don't you build a small, proof on concept application. Build it yourself (or with your team) and then show it off. Then you can blow them away by telling them it only took you a week to do. That's how you convince someone of the merits of a framework. Finally, when has a killer app ever been built out of someone saying we need a killer app. You never start a project like that. You start a project with a great idea, and it is usually a lot more specific than let's build a CMS. I think we'd all be better served if we just built stuff that we needed, stuff that worked, and eventually a great application will surface that the community can be proud of. Brad -- Brad Daily Developer, SlideShowPro Director http://www.slideshowpro.net --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Hey Brad, I have to say I like your 'killer app'!!! If people want to see a really elegant app check out slide show pro director. Plus it is really easy to tie into an existing cake app, to manage images and galleries. Nice Job Sam D On 3/29/07, Brad Daily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I've been reading this for the past few days and I am about to burst, so here goes. First of all, for all the I need something to convince my boss posts: The best way to convince your boss to use a certain tool is to build something *yourself* with it. I'm not sure how Look at what these other people built with Cake is going to help you any. That's like thinking that just because a carpenter built a house with a certain brand of hammer, that as long as I had the same kind of hammer, I can build the a house with the same quality and craftmanship. That's ridiculous. Instead, why don't you build a small, proof on concept application. Build it yourself (or with your team) and then show it off. Then you can blow them away by telling them it only took you a week to do. That's how you convince someone of the merits of a framework. Finally, when has a killer app ever been built out of someone saying we need a killer app. You never start a project like that. You start a project with a great idea, and it is usually a lot more specific than let's build a CMS. I think we'd all be better served if we just built stuff that we needed, stuff that worked, and eventually a great application will surface that the community can be proud of. Brad -- Brad Daily Developer, SlideShowPro Director http://www.slideshowpro.net -- (the old fart) the advice is free, the lack of crankiness will cost you - its a fine line between a real question and an idiot http://blog.samdevore.com/archives/2007/03/05/when-open-source-bugs-me/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
+1 on the sex starved models. +1 on the standardisation of modules/plugins +1 on the idea of building something to show off. As I said before, php in general (I repeat PHP, not cake) is missing a good accounting/ledger application. If cake could be used to fill this gap, I don't see how it could be harmful. Just my 2.73 Cheers, Sonic --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Proposal for killer app
Hi folks, Forgive me for being rather forward with my email here, I'll try to put my case over as level headed and as thoughtfully as possible, and please feel free to give back any constructive critisism. Also, forgive any spelling and grammar - I'm typing this on the way home on my blackberry, it's the only time I get to write an email this long. Through being on the IRC channel, and on here - many a time, someone new has come along and they are looking for a ready-to-roll application that they can plonk onto their server and have running. At the moment, there are a few small apps out there currently being written by small teams (and even just one coder) such as cheesecake, bakesale to name a couple, and there are plenty of dead projects in the trove. I want cake to succeed, it's a great framework - but I have to admit, it took me three tries of coming back to it over the course of a few month to get the hang of it. I could see it's power, but it took me a while to get the hand of it. And I'm not the only one. What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. So my proposal is this - along with the primary cake team who are developing the framework - we create a secondry team to work on an application that will be this killer app. With the creation of this team, we can set about making something that while it might not suit everyone's needs, it's something that most people can start off with and build upon (which is something I think is imporant to note now, think Drupal!). It would have standard modules such as a user system (registration, authorisation, access levels, etc), a post comments system, pages (from the db), a menu system, file upload - and many more. I'm thinking around a level akin to a default install of Wordpress. As well as creating a base level of these modules for people to work from, I think it would a) drive more people to download and learn CakePHP as they can see it in action and also so they can expand upon this base app and b) drive cakephp itself by defining requirments of the base application, and also provide more components, plugins and documentaion that can be included into CakePHP itself. And of course it would help in bug fixing by providing code back to the main project. Now, please don't me wrong - I think everyone should download the framework and experiment with their own apps, and this killer app is not going to suit all cases, but I think if some of the more senior members of the community who already have apps out there were to come together on this and pool their talents, something great could happen. If not, then I suppose it's the communitys loss. Personally, I'm happy to work on my own app, and although progress is admitidly slow, I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep over it. One last thing I would like to say is: convergance, not divergance - I think that needs to be the motto here So folks, now is your time to pipe up with your opinion. If anyone is interested, then discuss it here and we can start moving forward on it. If not, then that's fine too. Tane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On 3/28/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. The killer app for Rails is Basecamp, not Radient CMS. Rails, in fact, grew out of extractions from the creation of Basecamp. Trivial nitpicking aside, I fail to understand how a killer app for CakePHP is going to lead more developers to start using CakePHP instead of Zend Framework or Symfony. We are aiming at *developers* not *users*. PHP suffers from being considered lame by the latest generation of web developers, who tout Python and Ruby as the only good scripting languages for the web. Never mind that several of the biggest web applications out there use PHP (Yahoo! ring a bell?). To steal a phrase from Microsoft, it's all about developers, developers, DEVELOPERS!!!. We (as in the community using CakePHP) need to find constructive ways to convince developers to use CakePHP. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
I like and support the idea... To be honest, my skill is not really good enough compared to some of you but I want to be involved in this project. I have 2 application built using CakePHP, and I think CakePHP is such a great framework to learn. Being in this team, will improved my programming skill generally and CakePHP in particular. I want make -even small- contribution in this project. So, if this project is ready to roll..let me know :) On 3/29/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi folks, Forgive me for being rather forward with my email here, I'll try to put my case over as level headed and as thoughtfully as possible, and please feel free to give back any constructive critisism. Also, forgive any spelling and grammar - I'm typing this on the way home on my blackberry, it's the only time I get to write an email this long. Through being on the IRC channel, and on here - many a time, someone new has come along and they are looking for a ready-to-roll application that they can plonk onto their server and have running. At the moment, there are a few small apps out there currently being written by small teams (and even just one coder) such as cheesecake, bakesale to name a couple, and there are plenty of dead projects in the trove. I want cake to succeed, it's a great framework - but I have to admit, it took me three tries of coming back to it over the course of a few month to get the hang of it. I could see it's power, but it took me a while to get the hand of it. And I'm not the only one. What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. So my proposal is this - along with the primary cake team who are developing the framework - we create a secondry team to work on an application that will be this killer app. With the creation of this team, we can set about making something that while it might not suit everyone's needs, it's something that most people can start off with and build upon (which is something I think is imporant to note now, think Drupal!). It would have standard modules such as a user system (registration, authorisation, access levels, etc), a post comments system, pages (from the db), a menu system, file upload - and many more. I'm thinking around a level akin to a default install of Wordpress. As well as creating a base level of these modules for people to work from, I think it would a) drive more people to download and learn CakePHP as they can see it in action and also so they can expand upon this base app and b) drive cakephp itself by defining requirments of the base application, and also provide more components, plugins and documentaion that can be included into CakePHP itself. And of course it would help in bug fixing by providing code back to the main project. Now, please don't me wrong - I think everyone should download the framework and experiment with their own apps, and this killer app is not going to suit all cases, but I think if some of the more senior members of the community who already have apps out there were to come together on this and pool their talents, something great could happen. If not, then I suppose it's the communitys loss. Personally, I'm happy to work on my own app, and although progress is admitidly slow, I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep over it. One last thing I would like to say is: convergance, not divergance - I think that needs to be the motto here So folks, now is your time to pipe up with your opinion. If anyone is interested, then discuss it here and we can start moving forward on it. If not, then that's fine too. Tane -- Y!M id: riky.kurniawan Friendster: http://www.friendster.com/rikyknwn Personal blog: http://riky.kurniawan.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Fair enough on the Basecamp point, but I was looking at an overall general app that end-users can use, and Basecamp is quite specific to people who need Groupware. However I have to disagree on your other points. Look at Drupal or Wordpress for example, they are aimed at the end user - but as a consiquence of this, you have many hundreds of developers adding new code and features to them every day. Why can't this be the same for CakePHP. And I think if we are to persuade people to develop for CakePHP there should be something there other than a few basic tutorials to show them what its capible off. If you bake it, they will come! Tane On 3/28/07, Chris Hartjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/28/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. The killer app for Rails is Basecamp, not Radient CMS. Rails, in fact, grew out of extractions from the creation of Basecamp. Trivial nitpicking aside, I fail to understand how a killer app for CakePHP is going to lead more developers to start using CakePHP instead of Zend Framework or Symfony. We are aiming at *developers* not *users*. PHP suffers from being considered lame by the latest generation of web developers, who tout Python and Ruby as the only good scripting languages for the web. Never mind that several of the biggest web applications out there use PHP (Yahoo! ring a bell?). To steal a phrase from Microsoft, it's all about developers, developers, DEVELOPERS!!!. We (as in the community using CakePHP) need to find constructive ways to convince developers to use CakePHP. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Another point I forgot to make is I see a lot of people re-inventing the wheel. How many different Auth components are there out there (not to mention the official one in 1.2) for example. Why can't we come up with one consistant approach that can be provided to the community, again a base one that people can customise to their own needs. Tane On 3/28/07, Chris Hartjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/28/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. The killer app for Rails is Basecamp, not Radient CMS. Rails, in fact, grew out of extractions from the creation of Basecamp. Trivial nitpicking aside, I fail to understand how a killer app for CakePHP is going to lead more developers to start using CakePHP instead of Zend Framework or Symfony. We are aiming at *developers* not *users*. PHP suffers from being considered lame by the latest generation of web developers, who tout Python and Ruby as the only good scripting languages for the web. Never mind that several of the biggest web applications out there use PHP (Yahoo! ring a bell?). To steal a phrase from Microsoft, it's all about developers, developers, DEVELOPERS!!!. We (as in the community using CakePHP) need to find constructive ways to convince developers to use CakePHP. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
But in your example, they are developing for Wordpress and Drupal. Applied to this project proposal, they'd be developing for the CMS itself, not for CakePHP. -Erich- digital spaghetti wrote: Fair enough on the Basecamp point, but I was looking at an overall general app that end-users can use, and Basecamp is quite specific to people who need Groupware. However I have to disagree on your other points. Look at Drupal or Wordpress for example, they are aimed at the end user - but as a consiquence of this, you have many hundreds of developers adding new code and features to them every day. Why can't this be the same for CakePHP. And I think if we are to persuade people to develop for CakePHP there should be something there other than a few basic tutorials to show them what its capible off. If you bake it, they will come! Tane On 3/28/07, Chris Hartjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/28/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. The killer app for Rails is Basecamp, not Radient CMS. Rails, in fact, grew out of extractions from the creation of Basecamp. Trivial nitpicking aside, I fail to understand how a killer app for CakePHP is going to lead more developers to start using CakePHP instead of Zend Framework or Symfony. We are aiming at *developers* not *users*. PHP suffers from being considered lame by the latest generation of web developers, who tout Python and Ruby as the only good scripting languages for the web. Never mind that several of the biggest web applications out there use PHP (Yahoo! ring a bell?). To steal a phrase from Microsoft, it's all about developers, developers, DEVELOPERS!!!. We (as in the community using CakePHP) need to find constructive ways to convince developers to use CakePHP. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On Mar 28, 2007, at 12:49 PM, digital spaghetti wrote: Fair enough on the Basecamp point, but I was looking at an overall general app that end-users can use, and Basecamp is quite specific to people who need Groupware. However I have to disagree on your other points. Look at Drupal or Wordpress for example, they are aimed at the end user - but as a consiquence of this, you have many hundreds of developers adding new code and features to them every day. Why can't this be the same for CakePHP. This is my own personal take, but I don't think CakePHP is in the same category as Wordpress, Drupal, etc. There is a significant difference between a CMS and an Application Framework. CakePHP isn't a content mangement system, though it's pretty easy to create one using it. We're not aiming for end users, we're aiming for developers. And I think if we are to persuade people to develop for CakePHP there should be something there other than a few basic tutorials to show them what its capible off. I agree, but if people come to CakePHP expecting a plug and play website, I don't really think that's what we're after. If you bake it, they will come! ...to *your* website. Sure, if word gets out that some hot app was built with CakePHP it'll make us more popular and accepted, but mostly in development circles. I think CakePHP should shine for you more than it does for us. If it truly does that, people will come wanting the goodness anyway. /opinion type=personal -- John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
John, you kind of half hitting the nail on the head. At no point did I compare CakePHP itself to Wordpress, Drupal, etc - and CakePHP *should* be aimed at developers, but you said it yourself - if people know this cool application was built on CakePHP then more people will look at it, and maybe it will convert some of them to switch to. But like it or not, there are people out there who we call end users who are looking for a drop-in solution, why don't we give them one? I'm not suggesting it takes away from CakePHP, infact I think it would add great value. Tane On 3/28/07, John David Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 28, 2007, at 12:49 PM, digital spaghetti wrote: Fair enough on the Basecamp point, but I was looking at an overall general app that end-users can use, and Basecamp is quite specific to people who need Groupware. However I have to disagree on your other points. Look at Drupal or Wordpress for example, they are aimed at the end user - but as a consiquence of this, you have many hundreds of developers adding new code and features to them every day. Why can't this be the same for CakePHP. This is my own personal take, but I don't think CakePHP is in the same category as Wordpress, Drupal, etc. There is a significant difference between a CMS and an Application Framework. CakePHP isn't a content mangement system, though it's pretty easy to create one using it. We're not aiming for end users, we're aiming for developers. And I think if we are to persuade people to develop for CakePHP there should be something there other than a few basic tutorials to show them what its capible off. I agree, but if people come to CakePHP expecting a plug and play website, I don't really think that's what we're after. If you bake it, they will come! ...to *your* website. Sure, if word gets out that some hot app was built with CakePHP it'll make us more popular and accepted, but mostly in development circles. I think CakePHP should shine for you more than it does for us. If it truly does that, people will come wanting the goodness anyway. /opinion type=personal -- John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Really? Say tommorow google opens up a new API to their Super-time widget service, and I want to include it on my site which is powered by killer app, well I would still write a component for it using CakePHP, not the application. Anyone can then use it in their own app if I release it (which we would encourage) Tane On 3/28/07, Erich C. Beyrent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But in your example, they are developing for Wordpress and Drupal. Applied to this project proposal, they'd be developing for the CMS itself, not for CakePHP. -Erich- digital spaghetti wrote: Fair enough on the Basecamp point, but I was looking at an overall general app that end-users can use, and Basecamp is quite specific to people who need Groupware. However I have to disagree on your other points. Look at Drupal or Wordpress for example, they are aimed at the end user - but as a consiquence of this, you have many hundreds of developers adding new code and features to them every day. Why can't this be the same for CakePHP. And I think if we are to persuade people to develop for CakePHP there should be something there other than a few basic tutorials to show them what its capible off. If you bake it, they will come! Tane On 3/28/07, Chris Hartjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/28/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. The killer app for Rails is Basecamp, not Radient CMS. Rails, in fact, grew out of extractions from the creation of Basecamp. Trivial nitpicking aside, I fail to understand how a killer app for CakePHP is going to lead more developers to start using CakePHP instead of Zend Framework or Symfony. We are aiming at *developers* not *users*. PHP suffers from being considered lame by the latest generation of web developers, who tout Python and Ruby as the only good scripting languages for the web. Never mind that several of the biggest web applications out there use PHP (Yahoo! ring a bell?). To steal a phrase from Microsoft, it's all about developers, developers, DEVELOPERS!!!. We (as in the community using CakePHP) need to find constructive ways to convince developers to use CakePHP. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
@digitalspaghetti
Cake needs is to be the best framework in the world, it does not
need anything else. While a killer app is nice it is not a
prerequisite of being the best. Have a look at how many people have
downloaded Cake and you will see that things are moving along nicely.
Also, have a look in the archives of this group. You might find your
assertion has been made before. At the end of the day, CakePHP exists
because developers are free to develop their own app, not have one
dropped into place. There are many reasons why developers are
constantly choosing to proceed this way and one of them is continuous
improvement. It is much harder to continuosly improve an existing
product.
For example, the move from Mac OS9 to OSX or Windows to Vista. Both of
these examples were complete rewrites of the underlying operating
system and gui. They chose to do this because they were being bogged
down by issues with backwards compatibility and supporting legacy
systems, not to mention some of the new ideas just would not work with
the old base. The web works even faster than the offline world and
just as you now realize you need something more than wordpress,
tomorrow someone will realize the need more than you killer app.
CakePHP, itself, is under constant and continuous improvement. A
killer app will not exist for long if it has to support an existing
userbase and backwrds compatibility. It is much better from a
developers standpoint to use the resources available to continue to
innovate along with the framework. So in essence, we dont need a
killer app we need Inflector::pluralize('killer app'); and these come
from developers becoming killas.
Bake on.
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Re: Proposal for killer app
On Mar 28, 2007, at 1:09 PM, digital spaghetti wrote: John, you kind of half hitting the nail on the head. At no point did I compare CakePHP itself to Wordpress, Drupal, etc - and CakePHP *should* be aimed at developers, but you said it yourself - if people know this cool application was built on CakePHP then more people will look at it, and maybe it will convert some of them to switch to. Given that people understand my concerns below, I have no problem with a CakePHP killer app. But like it or not, there are people out there who we call end users who are looking for a drop-in solution, why don't we give them one? I'm not suggesting it takes away from CakePHP, infact I think it would add great value. Well, that's a value that you are welcome and able to pursue, but I personally don't think its one the CakePHP will. Not because its a good or bad idea, but because CakePHP isn't a CMS. Honestly I think its a great idea to provide a great product that will highlight the framework, so don't misunderstand me. I say get a group of folks together and do something awesome. -- John --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On 3/28/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another point I forgot to make is I see a lot of people re-inventing the wheel. How many different Auth components are there out there (not to mention the official one in 1.2) for example. Why can't we come up with one consistant approach that can be provided to the community, again a base one that people can customise to their own needs. Tane Um, isn't that what you're suggesting by creating yet another CMS? ;) Maybe I just don't understand how an application *built* with CakePHP will inspire people to create their own applications with CakePHP. Won't people concentrate on extending this killer app instead of creating their own? I hate to say it again, but we're aiming at developers, not at end users. You're making a big leap in assuming that a cool application written in CakePHP will lead people to build CakePHP applications. Look at it this way: 37Signals, the company that the creator of Rails works for, uses WordPress to run their blog, not some solution written in Ruby on Rails. On a related note, I'd love to see evidence that WordPress having been written in PHP has encouraged more developers to build things using PHP... I know it looks like I'm picking on you, but I'm not, really. I just think that the goal should be to get developers to use CakePHP. We just have a severe difference of opinion on the best way to accomplish that. My own contribution to CakePHP is going to be an interactive console to complement testing. Is that a killer app? I dunno, but hopefully lots of people will benefit from it. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
I am not old on cake (but in dev yes), but this a framework for developers in my opinion. Now if someone wants to make a killer app with it, no problem. But I do not think that the base Framework should be linked in anyway with an application built on it. I mean here that the framework should push people to develop using it, but certainly not having a killer app influencing the base framework. This is might be the trap for futur cake release = to serve a killer app, forgetting the initial goal. Again, I am not against a killer app, everyone developing on cake thinks he is making a killer app :-) Franck On Mar 28, 9:39 pm, Chris Hartjes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/28/07, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another point I forgot to make is I see a lot of people re-inventing the wheel. How many different Auth components are there out there (not to mention the official one in 1.2) for example. Why can't we come up with one consistant approach that can be provided to the community, again a base one that people can customise to their own needs. Tane Um, isn't that what you're suggesting by creating yet another CMS? ;) Maybe I just don't understand how an application *built* with CakePHP will inspire people to create their own applications with CakePHP. Won't people concentrate on extending this killer app instead of creating their own? I hate to say it again, but we're aiming at developers, not at end users. You're making a big leap in assuming that a cool application written in CakePHP will lead people to build CakePHP applications. Look at it this way: 37Signals, the company that the creator of Rails works for, uses WordPress to run their blog, not some solution written in Ruby on Rails. On a related note, I'd love to see evidence that WordPress having been written in PHP has encouraged more developers to build things using PHP... I know it looks like I'm picking on you, but I'm not, really. I just think that the goal should be to get developers to use CakePHP. We just have a severe difference of opinion on the best way to accomplish that. My own contribution to CakePHP is going to be an interactive console to complement testing. Is that a killer app? I dunno, but hopefully lots of people will benefit from it. -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark -http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard -http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Hi As a free-time coder I'd love the idea to contribute to a cakephp cms project. I'd love to this project aggregate the work of a lot of peoples. Presently I see cakephp as having a great core team, some very good coders around in the community, but much less cohesion in the 3rd line where the peoples seems not to be efficient at producing code together. As a professional web developer I need more than just cake to justify using cake. We kinda have 3 big steps in doing web development. When it is decided that a static site (step 1) has to become dynamic (step 2), we just plug a cms on it. Then some more features are being sold, then we use the cms as a framework, with all its limitations such as a stupid templating system with no php allowed and an un-documented exotic syntax to use, a mandatory web-based coding interface, to name a few. I believe that this situation is very common among web agencies. It actually pisses me off to work this way, but I cant justify the use of cake, because it make really sense at the 3rd step of development. So as a professional web developer I see clearly the benefit of having a little cms on top of cake that would allow me to be a little faster at step 1, with for instance an handy way to generate the navigation menu, to be fast at step 2 with some built-in rich text editing solution, and to have cake under the hand at step 3 when serious coding starts. digital spaghetti wrote: Hi folks, Forgive me for being rather forward with my email here, I'll try to put my case over as level headed and as thoughtfully as possible, and please feel free to give back any constructive critisism. Also, forgive any spelling and grammar - I'm typing this on the way home on my blackberry, it's the only time I get to write an email this long. Through being on the IRC channel, and on here - many a time, someone new has come along and they are looking for a ready-to-roll application that they can plonk onto their server and have running. At the moment, there are a few small apps out there currently being written by small teams (and even just one coder) such as cheesecake, bakesale to name a couple, and there are plenty of dead projects in the trove. I want cake to succeed, it's a great framework - but I have to admit, it took me three tries of coming back to it over the course of a few month to get the hang of it. I could see it's power, but it took me a while to get the hand of it. And I'm not the only one. What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. So my proposal is this - along with the primary cake team who are developing the framework - we create a secondry team to work on an application that will be this killer app. With the creation of this team, we can set about making something that while it might not suit everyone's needs, it's something that most people can start off with and build upon (which is something I think is imporant to note now, think Drupal!). It would have standard modules such as a user system (registration, authorisation, access levels, etc), a post comments system, pages (from the db), a menu system, file upload - and many more. I'm thinking around a level akin to a default install of Wordpress. As well as creating a base level of these modules for people to work from, I think it would a) drive more people to download and learn CakePHP as they can see it in action and also so they can expand upon this base app and b) drive cakephp itself by defining requirments of the base application, and also provide more components, plugins and documentaion that can be included into CakePHP itself. And of course it would help in bug fixing by providing code back to the main project. Now, please don't me wrong - I think everyone should download the framework and experiment with their own apps, and this killer app is not going to suit all cases, but I think if some of the more senior members of the community who already have apps out there were to come together on this and pool their talents, something great could happen. If not, then I suppose it's the communitys loss. Personally, I'm happy to work on my own app, and although progress is admitidly slow, I certainly wouldn't loose any sleep over it. One last thing I would like to say is: convergance, not divergance - I think that needs to be the motto here So folks, now is your time to pipe up with your opinion. If anyone is interested, then discuss it here and we can start moving forward on it. If not, then that's fine too. Tane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Re: Proposal for killer app
I think the point he was originally trying to make was that developing a killer-app will garner more interest in CakePHP. Using Wordpress again as an example, the first time I used it I was impressed. But me being a developer wasn't interested in it in much the same way that most end users would be. I wasn't inspired to go create my own blog (I'm too lazy to keep it up-to-date anyway). One of the first things I did was to see how it was engineered. And I'm pretty sure that a lot of you have done the same thing with Wordpress or other inspiring applications. Imagine that you'd never heard about CakePHP nor Wordpress. Even as a developer which one do you think would have come to your attention first? Wordpress I presume! Then in seeing Wordpress' entrails you would discover the tasty morsel that is CakePHP. I agree with the original poster in that a Killer-app would generate more interest in CakePHP. However, I don't see why CakePHP's core developers should be part of such a project. In fact I'd rather have them locked up in an isolated tech haven working solely on CakePHP. I'd have grossly sex-starved models feeding them at predefined intervals to keep their strength up and violent SM practitioners to punish them if they digress from the work at hand. Ok maybe I'm taking this Anyway, that's my 3 cents Felix --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
On 3/28/07, Olivier Percebois-Garve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So as a professional web developer I see clearly the benefit of having a little cms on top of cake that would allow me to be a little faster at step 1, with for instance an handy way to generate the navigation menu, to be fast at step 2 with some built-in rich text editing solution, and to have cake under the hand at step 3 when serious coding starts. Won't this lead to CakePHP being labeled the framework you can only build a CMS with? -- Chris Hartjes My motto for 2007: Just build it, damnit! rallyhat.com - digital photo scavenger hunt @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Proposal for killer app
At the end of the day, CakePHP should not be aiming for the highest number of developers, but for the best. Just because a bunch of people uses a specific framework, that doesn't mean that is the best thing to do. IMO developers who are serious about their job will not hesitate in choosing CakePHP. That's what we should put our focus on. Only the best use the best. Sure, the foundation needs to sharpen its marketing strategy (that will surely happen after the release of 1.2), but to change its way just to convince someone who needs to see a particular tool, oh well, I say let that someone walk away... When you, as an interested developer, judge a framework you should take into consideration *NOT* how cute their website is, but: what is the community behind it? what are its features? what does it offer me that other ones don't? etc. etc. I think there are a lot of websites and web applications built with Cake to give them an idea how flexible CakePHP is. Even the Cake team has produced cake based applications (take a look at The Bakery). So if there's a group of people that want to build a Cake-based CMS then I welcome that thought. But don't do it because you believe it is needed to get *more* developers, do it because you believe in it (like gwoo would say, sorry for the joda talk.) -MI --- Remember, smart coders answer ten questions for every question they ask. So be smart, be cool, and share your knowledge. BAKE ON! blog: http://www.MarianoIglesias.com.ar -Mensaje original- De: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Chris Hartjes Enviado el: Miércoles, 28 de Marzo de 2007 06:42 p.m. Para: cake-php@googlegroups.com Asunto: Re: Proposal for killer app Won't this lead to CakePHP being labeled the framework you can only build a CMS with? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
R: Proposal for killer app
A framework is a product to build apps quickly and presumablly better :) but last consideration may not be true :( Second thing a fw is a product for developers and every developer (in my experience) have his/her vision of a killer apps. Why it must be a cms and not a pim or a search engines like google? It's difficult for developer thinking at a killer apps because usually it does not build an application for him/her necessity but on request of her/his clients. Therefore if we would make a killer apps I think we would think at something of totally new. Why we would think to do a better cms of joomla or mambo or drupal? An apps is not better of another based on the tools you use to develop it. In my opinion a winner App is, or an application that resolves a big or boring trouble or something that is the first in it's field. For now the best killer app we can build is cake itself, and made our efforts to help make it even better. I am very pleasing to this group and to any user that share him/her knowledge and save me tons of hard work to reinvent the well or to test by myself how to things works. But this is my opinion. -Messaggio originale- Da: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Per conto di Olivier Percebois-Garve Inviato: mercoledì 28 marzo 2007 23.16 A: cake-php@googlegroups.com Oggetto: Re: Proposal for killer app Hi As a free-time coder I'd love the idea to contribute to a cakephp cms project. I'd love to this project aggregate the work of a lot of peoples. Presently I see cakephp as having a great core team, some very good coders around in the community, but much less cohesion in the 3rd line where the peoples seems not to be efficient at producing code together. As a professional web developer I need more than just cake to justify using cake. We kinda have 3 big steps in doing web development. When it is decided that a static site (step 1) has to become dynamic (step 2), we just plug a cms on it. Then some more features are being sold, then we use the cms as a framework, with all its limitations such as a stupid templating system with no php allowed and an un-documented exotic syntax to use, a mandatory web-based coding interface, to name a few. I believe that this situation is very common among web agencies. It actually pisses me off to work this way, but I cant justify the use of cake, because it make really sense at the 3rd step of development. So as a professional web developer I see clearly the benefit of having a little cms on top of cake that would allow me to be a little faster at step 1, with for instance an handy way to generate the navigation menu, to be fast at step 2 with some built-in rich text editing solution, and to have cake under the hand at step 3 when serious coding starts. digital spaghetti wrote: Hi folks, Forgive me for being rather forward with my email here, I'll try to put my case over as level headed and as thoughtfully as possible, and please feel free to give back any constructive critisism. Also, forgive any spelling and grammar - I'm typing this on the way home on my blackberry, it's the only time I get to write an email this long. Through being on the IRC channel, and on here - many a time, someone new has come along and they are looking for a ready-to-roll application that they can plonk onto their server and have running. At the moment, there are a few small apps out there currently being written by small teams (and even just one coder) such as cheesecake, bakesale to name a couple, and there are plenty of dead projects in the trove. I want cake to succeed, it's a great framework - but I have to admit, it took me three tries of coming back to it over the course of a few month to get the hang of it. I could see it's power, but it took me a while to get the hand of it. And I'm not the only one. What I believe CakePHP needs is a killer app, a CMS that can rival the others out there, and that gives people the chance to actually see cakephp in action. Think of it as a pre-packed Cake you get in the supermarket. RoR has one, Radient CMS - why can't we? I think by NOT having one, that scares a lot of people off. So my proposal is this - along with the primary cake team who are developing the framework - we create a secondry team to work on an application that will be this killer app. With the creation of this team, we can set about making something that while it might not suit everyone's needs, it's something that most people can start off with and build upon (which is something I think is imporant to note now, think Drupal!). It would have standard modules such as a user system (registration, authorisation, access levels, etc), a post comments system, pages (from the db), a menu system, file upload - and many more
Re: Proposal for killer app
@Felix I like the way you think my friend. You know if such a place exists? @mariano that is Yoda to you. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
@Chris I was thinking about having the cms you can code anything upon it. This should of course not compete with the framework's own reputation, but increase it. @Mariano Sorry but I do not share your elitist vision. Cakephp is making its best to reach new markets and to be used by the masses. Also I am rather considering the question of easing the processes in a team work, where we have various peoples with various skills. Most of our projects are starting small and growing later. We have a lot of legacy apps to manage and what we are producing will be managed by other peoples. We need to make the work easy for them, not require them to be super-geniouses to understand the mess we have produced. Sorry but I wont convince my managers by using your joda talk. :-) I just need something easy for them. The benefits are for me but I need to polish the caveats. Implementation speed in the early stages is one. CMSes seem faster to implement and therfore less costly for the agency. And they often claim to be usables as framworks. Mariano Iglesias wrote: At the end of the day, CakePHP should not be aiming for the highest number of developers, but for the best. Just because a bunch of people uses a specific framework, that doesn't mean that is the best thing to do. IMO developers who are serious about their job will not hesitate in choosing CakePHP. That's what we should put our focus on. Only the best use the best. Sure, the foundation needs to sharpen its marketing strategy (that will surely happen after the release of 1.2), but to change its way just to convince someone who needs to see a particular tool, oh well, I say let that someone walk away... When you, as an interested developer, judge a framework you should take into consideration *NOT* how cute their website is, but: what is the community behind it? what are its features? what does it offer me that other ones don't? etc. etc. I think there are a lot of websites and web applications built with Cake to give them an idea how flexible CakePHP is. Even the Cake team has produced cake based applications (take a look at The Bakery). So if there's a group of people that want to build a Cake-based CMS then I welcome that thought. But don't do it because you believe it is needed to get *more* developers, do it because you believe in it (like gwoo would say, sorry for the joda talk.) -MI --- Remember, smart coders answer ten questions for every question they ask. So be smart, be cool, and share your knowledge. BAKE ON! blog: http://www.MarianoIglesias.com.ar -Mensaje original- De: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Chris Hartjes Enviado el: Miércoles, 28 de Marzo de 2007 06:42 p.m. Para: cake-php@googlegroups.com Asunto: Re: Proposal for killer app Won't this lead to CakePHP being labeled the framework you can only build a CMS with? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
I think a Killer app is a good idea, but it has to be something new done better then anyone could picture, simple elegant and have it work. Trying to come out the door with yet another CMS is, in my mind (and it is a simple old mind remember), is dumb. To try compete with all the other CMS's out there is a fools errand. You would be obligated to make it have features to match all the cms's out there (now I am not saying that a good killer cms would have to have all that crap) but people come to the table with a certain expectation. The cakeforge is littered with half assed attempts to make the killer cms, why start another, you really want to make a difference in the CMS world, get all those people who started all those projects and DO something. The hardest part of a killer app is not building it, it's thinking of it. 37 Signals succeeded because their ideas and the way they executed them were killer (and timely) not because they tried to do something every one and their brother have tried. You need a fresh idea not a re-hash of an old one. I mean this in a helpful, yet cranky way. If you think of a killer idea and want help, scream in this deaf old man's ears and I will probably help. Sam D (my 4 cents because I need the money) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Proposal for killer app
Ok where do I start... Elitist vision? Well I'm not even going to comment on that one, not worth the typing effort... I hear a lot of What I need is.. It's your job to convince your managers, not Cake's... As a developer *YOU* need to assess the tools you'll be using and then go to your managers with a proposal... Since when are the tools expected to convince managers for you? CakePHP, and let's all start understanding it (those who haven't yet): IS A FRAMEWORK. It's not a company that will be doing the job for you, it's something that will help you get things done faster, and better. It won't convince your managers, nor it will magically build an application for you if you haven't put any effort into it. You can use CakePHP to build crap (trust me, I have seen a lot of crappy code written with CakePHP) but that doesn't mean CakePHP is crap. If used correctly, it will improve your coding skills, and leverage your productivity. Period. -MI --- Remember, smart coders answer ten questions for every question they ask. So be smart, be cool, and share your knowledge. BAKE ON! blog: http://www.MarianoIglesias.com.ar -Mensaje original- De: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Olivier Percebois-Garve Enviado el: Miércoles, 28 de Marzo de 2007 08:24 p.m. Para: cake-php@googlegroups.com Asunto: Re: Proposal for killer app @Mariano Sorry but I do not share your elitist vision. Cakephp is making its best to reach new markets and to be used by the masses. Also I am rather considering the question of easing the processes in a team work, where we have various peoples with various skills. Most of our projects are starting small and growing later. We have a lot of legacy apps to manage and what we are producing will be managed by other peoples. We need to make the work easy for them, not require them to be super-geniouses to understand the mess we have produced. Sorry but I wont convince my managers by using your joda talk. :-) I just need something easy for them. The benefits are for me but I need to polish the caveats. Implementation speed in the early stages is one. CMSes seem faster to implement and therfore less costly for the agency. And they often claim to be usables as framworks. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
At the end of the day, CakePHP should not be aiming for the highest number of developers, but for the best. Just because a bunch of people uses a specific framework, that doesn't mean that is the best thing to do. IMO developers who are serious about their job will not hesitate in choosing CakePHP. That's what we should put our focus on. Only the best use the best. But please its not meant to flame. I'm just trying to make my point at how it is difficult for me to bring cakephp in my company. Mariano Iglesias wrote: Ok where do I start... Elitist vision? Well I'm not even going to comment on that one, not worth the typing effort... I hear a lot of What I need is.. It's your job to convince your managers, not Cake's... As a developer *YOU* need to assess the tools you'll be using and then go to your managers with a proposal... Since when are the tools expected to convince managers for you? CakePHP, and let's all start understanding it (those who haven't yet): IS A FRAMEWORK. It's not a company that will be doing the job for you, it's something that will help you get things done faster, and better. It won't convince your managers, nor it will magically build an application for you if you haven't put any effort into it. You can use CakePHP to build crap (trust me, I have seen a lot of crappy code written with CakePHP) but that doesn't mean CakePHP is crap. If used correctly, it will improve your coding skills, and leverage your productivity. Period. -MI --- Remember, smart coders answer ten questions for every question they ask. So be smart, be cool, and share your knowledge. BAKE ON! blog: http://www.MarianoIglesias.com.ar -Mensaje original- De: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Olivier Percebois-Garve Enviado el: Miércoles, 28 de Marzo de 2007 08:24 p.m. Para: cake-php@googlegroups.com Asunto: Re: Proposal for killer app @Mariano Sorry but I do not share your elitist vision. Cakephp is making its best to reach new markets and to be used by the masses. Also I am rather considering the question of easing the processes in a team work, where we have various peoples with various skills. Most of our projects are starting small and growing later. We have a lot of legacy apps to manage and what we are producing will be managed by other peoples. We need to make the work easy for them, not require them to be super-geniouses to understand the mess we have produced. Sorry but I wont convince my managers by using your joda talk. :-) I just need something easy for them. The benefits are for me but I need to polish the caveats. Implementation speed in the early stages is one. CMSes seem faster to implement and therfore less costly for the agency. And they often claim to be usables as framworks. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
I've been helping debugging on ocean CMS. I created my own project on cakeforge when I started with cake. Even if it was flawed by design (recursive requestActions ...) it helped me get my job by demonstrating it. At that time I received zero feedback from the community, positive or negative. Not even a can't get it to work. I would just appreciate to participate to a project addressing some very common needs, not a feature bloat competition. But there is no project common enough to participate to. Samuel DeVore wrote: I think a Killer app is a good idea, but it has to be something new done better then anyone could picture, simple elegant and have it work. Trying to come out the door with yet another CMS is, in my mind (and it is a simple old mind remember), is dumb. To try compete with all the other CMS's out there is a fools errand. You would be obligated to make it have features to match all the cms's out there (now I am not saying that a good killer cms would have to have all that crap) but people come to the table with a certain expectation. The cakeforge is littered with half assed attempts to make the killer cms, why start another, you really want to make a difference in the CMS world, get all those people who started all those projects and DO something. The hardest part of a killer app is not building it, it's thinking of it. 37 Signals succeeded because their ideas and the way they executed them were killer (and timely) not because they tried to do something every one and their brother have tried. You need a fresh idea not a re-hash of an old one. I mean this in a helpful, yet cranky way. If you think of a killer idea and want help, scream in this deaf old man's ears and I will probably help. Sam D (my 4 cents because I need the money) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Sorry but I do not share your elitist vision. Cakephp is making its best to reach new markets and to be used by the masses. Also I am rather considering the question of easing the processes in a team work, where we have various peoples with various skills. Egalitarianism for it's own sake is lame and misguided: if you're sitting in a classroom, you don't want to be sitting next to people who aren't just as interested in learning as you are, because it diminshes the experience. Everyones' definition of what makes a good coder is going to be a little different, and everyone's a n00b at everything at some point, but what it comes down to is an interest in improvement. Some programmers show up at work, do their thing, and go home, never really thinking about their work beyond what's at the surface. Other programmers, however, actively work to improve their ability to write code, think about the projects they work on at a higher level, and possibly most importantly, seek to better understand *why* they code the way they code. Why is always the most important question; it is the key to understanding, and this is the critical differentiating factor. So in that sense, Mariano is correct: we don't want to limit ourselves to the best coders, but we *definitely* want to limit ourselves to those who try to be. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen Most of our projects are starting small and growing later. We have a lot of legacy apps to manage and what we are producing will be managed by other peoples. We need to make the work easy for them, not require them to be super-geniouses to understand the mess we have produced. Yet another reason to choose Cake over and overblown CMS; thank you for making my point. Sorry but I wont convince my managers by using your joda talk. :-) Then your managers must think very little of you and your work if you cannot even be trusted to choose your own tools. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Ok, from reading through the emails I get the consensus that most of you are not against the idea of a community built project, but more the label of it being a CMS. Maybe another way to put it is for a community team to work together on a library of code that provide different pre-baked functionality, and that can easily be plugged into any existing app, or combined together to make a fully functioning application. These could be things from a consistent user system, post and pages, a nested menu system to web-based email, tasks other groupware components, and components that tie in with 3rd party functionality such as google services, flickr, etc. Each module in this library would have to go through a consistent coding and documentation routine before being considered official, and could be provided as part of future releases of CakePHP - offering lite version with just the CakePHP framework, or an Application version that includes the framework + the library. These would then be upgraded as and when needed during framework changes. The problem with the Bakery and Cakeforge, is as much as they are useful - there is absolutely no consistency in the tutorials and articles. Isn't CakePHP all about conventions? If it's a team effort, this library could easily keep up with the fast pace. Tane On 3/29/07, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry but I do not share your elitist vision. Cakephp is making its best to reach new markets and to be used by the masses. Also I am rather considering the question of easing the processes in a team work, where we have various peoples with various skills. Egalitarianism for it's own sake is lame and misguided: if you're sitting in a classroom, you don't want to be sitting next to people who aren't just as interested in learning as you are, because it diminshes the experience. Everyones' definition of what makes a good coder is going to be a little different, and everyone's a n00b at everything at some point, but what it comes down to is an interest in improvement. Some programmers show up at work, do their thing, and go home, never really thinking about their work beyond what's at the surface. Other programmers, however, actively work to improve their ability to write code, think about the projects they work on at a higher level, and possibly most importantly, seek to better understand *why* they code the way they code. Why is always the most important question; it is the key to understanding, and this is the critical differentiating factor. So in that sense, Mariano is correct: we don't want to limit ourselves to the best coders, but we *definitely* want to limit ourselves to those who try to be. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen Most of our projects are starting small and growing later. We have a lot of legacy apps to manage and what we are producing will be managed by other peoples. We need to make the work easy for them, not require them to be super-geniouses to understand the mess we have produced. Yet another reason to choose Cake over and overblown CMS; thank you for making my point. Sorry but I wont convince my managers by using your joda talk. :-) Then your managers must think very little of you and your work if you cannot even be trusted to choose your own tools. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
I haven't looked at the 1.2 component throughly enough, but as far as I know, no components support this; groups permissions users group_permissions user_permissions and because you don't want to define 150 000 permissions, you need url based (/admin/users/*) permissions and itemized (published_revised_article) permissions. As for Nate's idea, Here's a model; We're working on this; http://www.mydr.com.au/v2/physical_diagram_(draft).png (note the 'draft' status!) I'm fine with adapting it and generalizing it a bit more (ie, replacing enums by properly modeled tables). But then if you think that could become an interesting 'starting point', I could have a chat with the business and contribute it back if we get help from a few dev. I believe this could be a fair agreement. The business has agreed to fund and allocate resources to rebuild the site, work quoted to between 225 000 and 350 000$ by outsourcing companies, and so this will go forward. Any feed back welcome! Seb. On Mar 29, 5:00 am, digital spaghetti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another point I forgot to make is I see a lot of people re-inventing the wheel. How many different Auth components are there out there (not to mention the official one in 1.2) for example. [...] Tane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
That I have to agree with, entirely. However the web is growing heavily from the new 'half-computer-literate' generations. I have build myself a very simple 'page management', where our various clients can simply edit a web 'page' (no concept of articles, news, content_type whatsoever). It's just an on or off page, with minimal admin security. Where it becomes interesting and that's where I see a point in having a good starting point for Cake users, is that when a client wants something more, cake makes my life so easy. Then a user wants something more, it'd be pretty straight forward to add it, or have someone to. The point is they got started with Cake and will keep using it. Anyway, I realize the project I posted above might be too big ... anyways.. my 2c! Seb. On Mar 29, 5:02 am, John David Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 28, 2007, at 12:49 PM, digital spaghetti wrote: This is my own personal take, but I don't think CakePHP is in the same category as Wordpress, Drupal, etc. There is a significant difference between a CMS and an Application Framework. CakePHP isn't a content mangement system, though it's pretty easy to create one using it. We're not aiming for end users, we're aiming for developers. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Actually, if you combine the 1.2 Auth component with the newly- rewritten ACL component, you can scale to pretty much any level of permissions complexity you want without very much trouble. The items you mentioned are well within the scope of it's capability. On Mar 28, 9:20 pm, Seb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't looked at the 1.2 component throughly enough, but as far as I know, no components support this; groups permissions users group_permissions user_permissions and because you don't want to define 150 000 permissions, you need url based (/admin/users/*) permissions and itemized (published_revised_article) permissions. As for Nate's idea, Here's a model; We're working on this;http://www.mydr.com.au/v2/physical_diagram_(draft).png (note the 'draft' status!) I'm fine with adapting it and generalizing it a bit more (ie, replacing enums by properly modeled tables). But then if you think that could become an interesting 'starting point', I could have a chat with the business and contribute it back if we get help from a few dev. I believe this could be a fair agreement. The business has agreed to fund and allocate resources to rebuild the site, work quoted to between 225 000 and 350 000$ by outsourcing companies, and so this will go forward. Any feed back welcome! Seb. On Mar 29, 5:00 am, digital spaghetti[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another point I forgot to make is I see a lot of people re-inventing the wheel. How many different Auth components are there out there (not to mention the official one in 1.2) for example. [...] Tane --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Oh.. and.. last point, last post... Tane, I second retty much everything you said so far. You and I have the same vision of IT, system design and collaborative work apparently! ;) SEb. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
RE: Proposal for killer app
If I had a penny for every time I've heard: I'm going to do this and that... I would be freaking zillionaire... Now if Larry, Gwoo and Nate had a penny every time *they* heard that, they would own the whole freaking galaxy... -MI --- Remember, smart coders answer ten questions for every question they ask. So be smart, be cool, and share your knowledge. BAKE ON! blog: http://www.MarianoIglesias.com.ar -Mensaje original- De: cake-php@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] En nombre de Dr. Tarique Sani Enviado el: Jueves, 29 de Marzo de 2007 01:48 a.m. Para: cake-php@googlegroups.com Asunto: Re: Proposal for killer app To the entire thread I would like to quote Chris's signature Just build it, damnit! :P --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Proposal for killer app
Fascinating thread, and my hat is off to all who have chimed in. I've been developing PHP/MySQL apps from scratch for four years, and have just recently begun embracing CMSs, frameworks and anything else that can speed up development. I'm very interested in CakePHP, and am about 20 hours up the learning curve. Considering how little I've accomplished in that time, I'm about ready to jump ship. I don't doubt for a minute that CakePHP is an excellent framework. And after an hour or two of tutorials, I was pretty stoked. Now it's time for me to put CakePHP to work, and the going ain't so easy... So take this for what it's worth: if you want to change the world with CakePHP, don't bother creating a killer app. Instead, find a way to flatten the learning curve by about 45 degrees. The API docs are great, but the overviews and tutorials just don't give the CakePHP newcomer what he/she needs. I have read time and time again of developers heading in different directions (Code Igniter, for example), because they just CAN NOT make sense of this framework. Or they know they can eventually figure it out, but don't have the time to spare. I know the people who developed this framework make me look like a bonafide stooge. But all that coding savvy is going to waste if this spiffy framework remains an inscrutable tangle of half-baked documentation and shallow tutorials. Documentation is no fun (I hate writing it, we all hate writing it), but I believe it is KEY to the widespread adoption of CakePHP. Flame if you must, but I'm just trying to offer my perspective. As near as I can tell, I'm the very type of developer you're hoping to attract. I'll likely stick with CakePHP, but would switch in heartbeat if another framework offered similar power and better docs. Time is just too valuable. Thanks for reading, Loren --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
