Re: [Audyssey] Lworks discontinuing sales of legacy games
The actual details of making Alter Aeon accessible were much easier than for most projects, because the game server itself is purely text based and already had low spam modes. Most of the accessibility changes were additional filtering, special commands to display single pieces of information instead of an entire screen, and a dedicated blind mode that changed how certain things were displayed. None of these took a huge amount of time alone, but there were a lot of them. As for why I originally did it, I thought it was amazing that the blind were playing the game, and I was bored, and I liked the person who asked. I keep doing it now because most of our players are blind and we have a solid community built up on the server. I consider the blind/VI crowd to be my largest target audience. As I mentioned above, keep in mind that Alter Aeon had a lot going for it right from the start: the server was purely text based, we had spam filters for other reasons, and our blind community started Mush-Z on their own. Most mainstream games will have zero of these things, and it'll be a LOT more work (if not impossible) to convince developers to support the blind. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Steven Cantos earge...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Mr. developer of the Alteraeon Mud, You managed to actually make your game accessible. What did it take and why did you decide to do it? In writing this question, I am assuming that you are sighted and are merely sympathetic to the blind. Signed, Steven --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Lworks discontinuing sales of legacy games
Dear Mr. developer of the Alteraeon Mud, You managed to actually make your game accessible. What did it take and why did you decide to do it? In writing this question, I am assuming that you are sighted and are merely sympathetic to the blind. Signed, Steven --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi paulette. What sometimes dispairs me is the ignorance of some users. The throw away tech we have and the fact that if something goes people are interested in getting things fixed. The quickest way to fix something is a reformat. It always works and no research is needed. Now unless you are some sort of linux guru and most people in the world arn't, well, in windows you don't even need to really know what you are doing. If it works good if not, you reformat and it all goes away. A lot of users don't have the drive to actually fix things and for those in business I guess I can understand, but I have been round the boxes since 1990, and have seen the historys from 1950 when they came online computers I mean. And it saddens me that no one cares about what was. What was shaped what is and what is yet to come. Knowing what was enables me to understand what is happening, and why. If windows decides to go boom its almost not worth the attempts to try to handle things. I have no idea why people put all their eggs in 1 basket with the registry. Its a good place but its its own programming language in itself. All those libraries are good but failing libs can take the system. If a module in dos failed, it could be replaced. If a module in windows failes, you reformat because chances are the entire system is pulled down with the falier. I guess the extra security and data protection is good but still, I'd take configuration files any day and with the compressed encripted xmls as they are we really don't need a registry at all to be honest. I digress though. I do fear though that a tech won't eventually have to interact as closelyas he has in the past. And it scares me that we are losing touch for the past and only concentrating on right now. Anyway ibm could have chosen something other than ms to handle things in the day. we were running a unix type system back then. If dos was never invented and ms never got there we would probably still running one. At 10:47 a.m. 23/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Shawn, it sounds like you know a lot about computers from way back. You know now, they make you pay money and get degrees in what you learned how to do by the seat of your pants and your well worn boot straps. My husband feels the same way. He is a MIS, manager of information systems. He is not interested in programming or games at all, but he can clean out a computer and understands how they work and can set up any web page from the ground up. He learned all of that by just being there as the computer developed and by taking a few classes along the way which were paid for by his work. Sometimes I wish we were still back with good old dos. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 12:43 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Well the columns are not to bad neither are the ribbons though I am an old dos hacker that likes to fly by the seat of my pants. If you never had to gut your config.sys to fix a problem or hack something on your box to optimise it knowing that at any second it could just go nuts and you'd have to start all over, well you don't have the drive. In a way windows is a bit more restricting. sure you can hack away but the registry is not happy you change one thing and will show it by taking out everything not just one module. A reformat is required to make it all work again and hence I don't touch things unless I need to. I also like the search boxes the fact I don't have to navigate stupid columns or lists like I have to do in xp really helps me a lot. even if I know part of what I want thats fine. I think for now we will have to have all our icons in folders on the desktop and navigate that that way annoying that it is. At 02:09 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: I think keyboards will always be around for typing and word processing, which is a major part of business, since it's very difficult to imagine say stenography or other forms of dictation being done on a touch screen device. that being said, i have noticed a general trend in all sorts of media devices to present as much information in a single place as possible, adds, flashy arrows, and other stuff not withstanding. This is why windows 7 and 8 has the stupid columns layout, so that sighted people don't have to go through multiple screens of information and can have the lot in one place for quick visual overview, which is pretty bad for Vi users since that sort of layout is much more confusing. This is not just on pcs, but on touch screen devices, console game interfaces and lots of things, look at the wii mote and it's use in menues with floating icons (thank you nintendo!). On the plus side, some of these moves have not worked, ie, ribbons, and personalization seems a pretty major thing as well, so it might be that we end up with devices that have! touch screens with large
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Jim, I had no idea that some of the old dos stuff was still available. I don't know much about computers, but I still have fond memories of some of the games that I used to have, all 3 of them. I really liked playing a game about a haunted house in a neighborhood, but I could never really do much. You entered the haunted house through a closet and you could die if you bit into the apple that had a razor blade in it. The other game that I liked was a game in which you were a Christmas elf. Do you know anything about either of them? I would really like to play them again. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jim Kitchen Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:29 AM To: Paulette Vickery Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Paulette, I can not say that I am a Windows expert in any way, but I get around my computer ok. I am totally self taught both on the computer and programming games. Did you know that you can still use the command prompt? And heck I still write and use batch files all the time. Almost all of the dos commands are still available at the command prompt. I did copy deltree over from an old version of dos, but other than that, it seems most commands are still there. You can find the command prompt under accessories or by typing cmd in the run box. Batch files that I want available everywhere I put in c:\windows. I have a short cut icon on my desk top to the command prompt and have it put the beep character in the dos prompt so that it beeps when it is done listing a folder or what ever it is done doing. At the command prompt you just type exit and press enter to go back to Windows. Have fun. BFN Jim The command prompt is our friend. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/22/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Well while all other screenreaders gw, dolphin, etc fs want to probably include it as another pricy addon. Nvda does some mouse tracking though I have never managed to make it usefull right now. At 08:03 a.m. 23/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Charles, Well, I can definitely say that Freedom Scientific is full of crap. Window-Eyes does a fairly decent job of following the mouse and identifying what is under the mouse pointer so I don't see why Jaws couldn't do it. I think its Freedom Scientific's view that following the mouse pointer is unnecessary that is the real issue. Not only that but the Orca screen reader for Linux, which is totally free, has an option to enable mouse tracking. Its actually gotten so good lately that I've been able to use my touchpad to move the mouse around Ubuntu 12.04 and have Orca announce exactly what is under the mouse pointer and let me point and click on things inside many applications. Obviously, one would think if Window-eyes could do it for Windows and Orca can do it on Linux Jaws could certainly have a similar feature, but Freedom Scientific just continues to give excuses why it can't be done. I'm afraid to say when it comes to touchscreen technology Jaws users will be in no better position with a touchscreen than they are with a mouse. GW Micro has at least mentioned they are looking at supporting touchscreens in the future, and I'm pretty sure if Ubuntu Linux ends up being incorporated into more touchscreen devices Orca will similarly have to be updated to handle touchscreens as well. The way Freedom Scientific is Jaws will be the last to implement touchscreen support, and when they do they'll act like they are the first screen reader to have supported touchscreen technology. Cheers! On 4/22/2012 12:25 PM, Charles Rivard wrote: Several years ago, I asked a Freedom Scientific tech about getting the JAWS or PC cursor to follow a mouse pointer and was told that because there are so many different shapes, colors, and sizes of mouse pointers, it would cost half a million dollars to implement the feature into the screen reader. Again, this was several years ago. I didn't believe it then, and don't now. However, the touch screen cursor might be similar to a mouse pointer? --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Paulette, I can not say that I am a Windows expert in any way, but I get around my computer ok. I am totally self taught both on the computer and programming games. Did you know that you can still use the command prompt? And heck I still write and use batch files all the time. Almost all of the dos commands are still available at the command prompt. I did copy deltree over from an old version of dos, but other than that, it seems most commands are still there. You can find the command prompt under accessories or by typing cmd in the run box. Batch files that I want available everywhere I put in c:\windows. I have a short cut icon on my desk top to the command prompt and have it put the beep character in the dos prompt so that it beeps when it is done listing a folder or what ever it is done doing. At the command prompt you just type exit and press enter to go back to Windows. Have fun. BFN Jim The command prompt is our friend. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, As they say whatever works. Although, I must say I find your way of navigation pretty alien to my own experiences. When I play Shades of Doom I bring up a mental image, a map, of how the levels are laid out. I realize on level 1, for example, I start in at (19, 19) which is the north-east corner of the map or top left hand corner if you prefer. I move west to the north-west corner and then south and then turn east into the parallel corridor. I can't imagine not having this mental overview of the game world. Yet, clearly as you pointed out it can be done by using landmarks rather than visualizing the world as a whole. However, the bottom line is since I almost always visualize the world around me, in real life as well as a virtual one, I find it a very important skill to have. When I use Windows, Linux, an iPhone, etc the same mental mapping skill gives me a mental picture as it were of the screen. I don't think of button x being to the left of button y in the terms of landmarks but as to how button x and button y fit into the entire mental picture. I suppose having grown up sighted I still think in terms of a sighted user looking at the image as a whole rather than any specific piece of it. Cheers! On 4/22/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I disagree on visualization or spacial awareness, since that is a skill i just do not have. This is why I find a game like battleships, patience/solitare, mine sweeper, chess, or even draughts/checkers nearly impossible to play unless the board is in front of me in either a visual or tactile form for me to get that sort of overview, since I just cannot maintain the memory of where each object is after the audio view of it has moved on. That being said, i do find gma tank commander and shades of doom possible, but my mental way of playing is probably different from other peoples, since instead of attempting to build up a larger, mental map of the entire location, I simply work by memorizing the relations betwene landmarks, and the directions provided by the coordinates system. For example, I know in the first level of shades of doom, that you follow the corridors until you get to the end of one with two doors, one leading to a radio room, the other up a corridor to the fan room. once in the fan room, you can go left into another passage then right into another large room, with a door leading to a passage going out of it to the left, and in that passage is the false wall where the message is (and usually a monster with a gun). I have no practical idea where that room is in comparison to the rest of the stage at all, but by memorizing the landmarks and directions I know just where to find it with respect to the rest of the stage. I actually believe it was playing massive, exploration games like Turrican and Metroid that really improved my memory skills for landmarks, since there I'd often have to spend a fair amount of time wandering around an area looking for a specific configuration of ledges or a specific landmark that I know leads to where I'm going, and this skill in fact has stood me in very good stead. For example, last weekend I was in brightan at the mini aims music school and auditions, and since I know I'll be back there perminantly I determined to learn the 10 minute or so walk from my hotel to the music school. I have no idea where practically in directional terms this went, but I know it's right, streight on, through a style, cross one road, walk until i find the grass verge, cross again, right, then up a very long road to a white wall, cross on the right, streight on up to a main road, follow the railings right again, and left to the entrance. My parents were staying with me at the time (they wanted a holiday), and it just took one run there and back with them for reever and I to get the route, and in fact having a dog really help with that since I could concentrate upon my land marks instead of worrying about what rubbish people stuck on the pavement (indeed, she remembered it as well if not better than I did). So the point of all this is that mental overview of space is actually unnecessary if you are sufficiently used to working with an alternative set of skills. I'm always frankly amazed at the mental mapping skills some blind people have, - I just realized it's not something my mind will do, indeed there is probably a physiological explanation for this, since when i was born I apparently suffered mild brain damage, and though we can't determine anything wrong with other mental areas, my spacial perception really isn't what it should be. Fortunately, my memory is more than up to the task. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, Relax. There is no need to hate yourself, or beat yourself up because you can't do something. We all have our personal limitations. I have them, you have them, Charles has them. Its a part of life. For instance, I know of guys on here who talk about beating games like Street Fighter IV and make it sound easy. I've never beaten it, and perhaps I won't. However, I see no need to beat myself up over it. Someone on here is obviously better at fighting games than I am, and they probably put more time and effort into getting that good at it. I don't have the time or patients to stick with a mainstream game to get very good at it. The same could be said for devices like the iPhone. For whatever reason you are incapable of grasping the mechanics of using the device so move on. If necessary you might have to hang on to your old Symbian phone, and hope when time comes to replace it there will be a reasonable alternative for you. The rest of us who can use iPhones successfully will happily use them because the level of access is reasonable for us. I don't see complaining about the situation will do much good for you in the long run because its not a general accessibility issue, but some personal limitation you have that we don't have. Cheers! On 4/22/12, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Charles, You must have a lot of patience and a lot of self confidence. I, I'm sorry to say, don't tend to have much of either. Again, it all comes down to people having such high expectations of me previously and with me getting so many things wrong that most other people can get right, whether it be slow or fast. I've also grown to have high expectations of me, and if I can't meet them then I tend to hate the challenge and berate myself for the rest of my days, and that is why I'm so often a lot more frustrated with things. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Tom. i can understand my method seeming alien. As I said, I find it very difficult to comprehend space, and will frequently walk into an object I've previously seen or felt simply because I cannot judge spacially where it is. I can't for instance judge when I'm upstairs in a building where I am in relation to downstairs, and while I can just about cope with a grid, that is only if I'm supposed to track one set of movements. In pontes monopoly for example, I play entirely by numbers, and simply remember that whites home board are squares 1-6, and blacks are 24-18, and that when my checker reaches 12 on one side, it'll start counting down from 12 on the other side without any attempt to actually comprehend the over all shape of the board. In fairness though, this has helped with lots of things. For instance, in mathematics, i was dire at any sort of spacial representation of information in graphs or charts, much less area of shapes and objects, but I always did extremely well if I just had the numbers of the equations to play with. The same goes for chemistry, and indeed the same goes for words and music, because I'm not relient upon spacial information I simply match the colours and sensations I experience to the concepts or notes involved, rather than trying to map them onto a physical object such as a musical stave or a particular spacial representation such as a diagram, (it always got on my nerves when people used diagrams, even when they explained what they meant, sinse I found it much easier to understand the bare essentials of the concept than the diagram). I actually think in some ways it's been helpful, or at least it's what has given me the relation I have to words and music, that I run straight from my own experienced, abstract, roar synaesthesic impressions and visualizations, rather than mapping them onto some external system based in space. but this is getting close to a discussion of functionalism and phenomenology so I'll stop. Basically my lack of spacial ability is like any other disability, because it's something I've had to live without, I've improved in other areas, - though I don't think spacial disability is too disabling owing to the fact that there isn't too much it actually and directly stops me doing with a similar amount of ease as someone with normal spacial perceptions. There are one or two things, but certainly not many. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, Question. How many times have you called the manufacturer and actually got them to commit to improving accessibility based on your personal suggestions? That's where the rubber meets the road for me. We can call and complain all we want, but short of a lawsuit most companies will brush us aside without a second glance. We are too much of a minority to invest time, money, and energy into developing added accessibility. From our standpoint it is completely immoral, but it doesn't make sense from a financial point of view. Which brings me to the issue of why sighted people don't pay more attention to blindness and accessibility related issues. It comes down to out and out ignorance of what we can and can't do. The average sighted person knows nothing about screen readers like Jaws, knows nothing about applications like Openbook for scanning and reading printed documents, and probably don't know the first thing about basic cane travel. Instead they grow up in a community of roomer and wild guesses on what blindness must be like. I should know. I was once sighted. For example, when I first was told I would lose my sight you know what I thought? I believed I'd have to count steps to find my way around. I thought I'd never be able to use a computer because I couldn't use the monitor. I believed blind people got guide dogs so the dog would lead them around. I believed learning and using braille would be hard. All of these things turned out to be falsehoods, but I didn't know that at the time. In fact, no one else I knew my parents, other family members, friends, etc had any clue of what to do for a blind person, and how would they know? After all screen readers like Jaws, Window-Eyes, and Window Bridge, were sold through special agencies for the blind. Nobody knew about orientation and mobility training such as cane travel and guide dog usage so assumed a blind person must count his/her steps or a dog was trained to lead him/her around. The few samples of braille that someone would find like other diet, which can be found on the lids of McDonald's cups, looked nothing like print so the assumption was it would be difficult to learn. I can go on and on, but what it all really boils down to is ignorance. Not ignorance that we exist, but how we actually go about using cell phones, computers, using guide dogs, cane travel, read braille materials, and all the rest of blind day to day life we take for granted. Finally, as to your point about touchscreens you are right. Not everyone can use them. There are people who have physical disabilities with their hands that would make it impossible to use a touchscreen and probably buttons as well. That's why more and more phones have voice dialing and/or voice recognition too. The iPhone, which has been said before, does have a voice recognition application called Seri. Its not very good yet, but once fully developed and tested will give an iPhone user control of the phone through voice control. So perhaps, just perhaps, that might offer a solution to your problem in time. Cheers! On 4/22/12, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Mike, There are some things we need to complain about. I'm the sort of person who won't take things lying down. If I'm not happy with something then I will say it. A lot of people can just grin and bear it, but to me it's that sort of attitude that continues to prove to big arrogant snobbish money grabbers that blind people don't care either way. For example, there's a lot of products that don't have any accessibility features on at all that I have also rang the manufacturers and complained about. It's funny how I'm apparently, quite often, the only one who has mentioned it. A lot of sighted people even admit they don't think of blind people because they don't come across us on a day-to-day basis. Whether they come across us or not, they still know blindness exists, therefore they must know that blind people exist. So why not think of them in some way, even if it's to talk to the company they work for about making some changes that could help their blind customer base, so to speak? To me that's awful. I think we should make a lot more of a stand to turn the world around at least partially rather than taking the sighted person's side all the time. OK. So they've put screenreaders in the IPhone. Good start. But not everyone can handle touch screens, and that's not just blind people. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I can't even imagine that being possible. The appliances never move. They're always in the same place. Memorization should work. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Phil, Yes, but again, you have to remember where you are going half the time, which is hard when you've got other things to think about. I can remember phone numbers, but not locations. I've lived in my apartment now for four years now and I still get confused between the location of the fridge and the freezer. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Think your thought on keyboards is past. Apple has with iPad and a lot of tablet makers are all touch, even the new Toshiba netbook is touch screen keyboard. At 01:39 AM 4/23/2012, you wrote: Well, I can agree with that. I can at least highly respect Apple for taking the extra step and building accessibility into their devices. That said, I too am someone who struggles with spacial awareness. I think what it all comes down to is being able to accept that everyone is different, and not everyone can adapt to a completely new concept. As far as touch screens replacing keyboards on computers, I don't think that will happen any time in the conceivable future. On phones, unfortunately, I do see it as a looming problem on the horizon. On 4/23/12, Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote: Apple rocks. Sorry but they do. What other manufacturer purposefully puts in accessibility from the ground up in their operating systems? Android hasn't, bb hasn't, nokia hasn't, yes nokia has a screen reader but it's not built into the phone. Nore has Microsoft. Touch screens are a weird concept but they aren't as difficult as all that. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Damien Pendleton Sent: 22 April 2012 12:56 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, One blind guy did attempt to show me. In fact, if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't have got my IPhone set up at all. But he had to spend over two hours on the phone setting the stupid thing up. Then when it was set up he tried to tell me what to do with it, and I was constantly getting it wrong. Then it ended up locking, and I couldn't get it unlocked. When I finally did, after about another half an hour, it took me ages to access things. Roughly five minutes to go from item to item trying to figure out how to activate it and see what was there. Over the next two weeks I was using it I'd had conversation after conversation with person after person after person who was trying their level best to tell me how to do something, and I still didn't get anywhere. I was scandalised, I felt like I was having to sit there like a four or five year old learning their alphabet. I couldn't even do something as simple as dial a phone number without sitting there for five minutes, and I couldn't access my phonebook at all. And due to past experiences with companies being inconsiderable or in some cases downright rude and disrespectful to disabled people, I believed that the IPhone was just another one of those. Sometimes I feel like sighted people rub their ability to see in our faces and laugh at us. And that's why I believed it to be a con. It almost feels like we get used to one method, then they see how well we cope with it, so they change it just to throw us off track again so they can tap around like there's no tomorrow and sit there and see us struggling for five or ten minutes to find an item trying to get used to the new interface. Again, I can see why it would be more convenient for sighted people. No scrolling, no highlighting or single/double clicking, just a single tap in a location on screen, and they've got what they want. And why not have that option available, but also keep traditional input methods in as well for people who might struggle with that. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, I understand the fact you don't like touchscreens very much, say you hate them, but I'd like to know why you think Apple is conning the law. Aside from yourself many blind users own and use iPhones with no problems at all and as Cara pointed out on the list a few days ago there is more than 1,400 blind users on the iPhone mailing list. That tells me contrary to conning the law many blind users are quite happy with the level of accessibility with their iPhones. I don't want to sound rude or condescending, but it sounds like because you personally have problems using iPhones then you are effectively saying the same is true for everyone else. That's not true. Its not a matter of conquering the device, but simply learning from other blind users techniques they use to access their iPhone. Perhaps if you had hands on training from a fellow blind iPhone user you would be able to figure it out by asking questions and having someone there to show you a better way of doing this or that. Its like anything else. We learn through reading tutorials or having hands on training if we just don't get it. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 1:25 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Charles, Well, I can definitely say that Freedom Scientific is full of crap. Window-Eyes does a fairly decent job of following the mouse and identifying what is under the mouse pointer so I don't see why Jaws couldn't do it. I think its Freedom Scientific's view that following the mouse pointer is unnecessary that is the real issue. Not only that but the Orca screen reader for Linux, which is totally free, has an option to enable mouse tracking. Its actually gotten so good lately that I've been able to use my touchpad to move the mouse around Ubuntu 12.04 and have Orca announce exactly what is under the mouse pointer and let me point and click on things inside many applications. Obviously, one would think if Window-eyes could do it for Windows and Orca can do it on Linux Jaws could certainly have a similar feature, but Freedom Scientific just continues to give excuses why it can't be done. I'm afraid to say when it comes to touchscreen technology Jaws users will be in no better position with a touchscreen than they are with a mouse. GW Micro has at least mentioned they are looking at supporting touchscreens in the future, and I'm pretty sure if Ubuntu Linux ends up being incorporated into more touchscreen devices Orca will similarly have to be updated to handle touchscreens as well. The way Freedom Scientific is Jaws will be the last to implement touchscreen support, and when they do they'll act like they are the first screen reader to have supported touchscreen technology. Cheers! On 4/22/2012 12:25 PM, Charles Rivard wrote: Several years ago, I asked a Freedom Scientific tech about getting the JAWS or PC cursor to follow a mouse pointer and was told that because there are so many different shapes, colors, and sizes of mouse pointers, it would cost half a million dollars to implement the feature into the screen reader. Again, this was several years ago. I didn't believe it then, and don't now. However, the touch screen cursor might be similar to a mouse pointer? --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, Sure. I love organization as well. If you looked at my Windows 7 laptop, which I'm using currently, you would discover my icons in the start menu are are all sorted and organized accordingly. For example, if you click on All Programs you'll find a submenu called Games. Under Games are Draconis Entertainment, PCs Games, GMA Games, USA Games, etc. Under those subfolders are the actual submenus for each game. Under GMA Games there is a submenu for Tank Commander, Shades of Doom, Time of Conflict, GMA Solitaire, etc. So I know exactly what you mean about organizing your icons like books on a shelf. It makes finding something easier because the icons are in a logical place. That's actually one reason I'm a bit disappointed in Windows 8's Metro interface and Ubuntu 12's Unity interface. There is no way to organize things that makes logical sense for me personally. Everything is just there on the screen which I suppose is fine for a sighted user, but lacks any kind of structure or organization that a blind user can follow. All be it Unity at least is more accessible in the sense I can add my favorite apps to the launcher toolbar which puts everything I use on a daily bases in one place that is easy to get to. I suppose that's similar to pinning an app to the taskbar in Windows 8 rather than fighting Metro to find the icon in the start screen. On 4/22/2012 12:39 PM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. as I have said before, I could probably learn to live with the search box, but I just like the pleasure and convenience of organizing stuff myself, just as I might books or dvds on a shelf, which is why I think for me the columnbs with a touch screen would actually be preferable to using the search box, hopefully by the time I need to worry about windows 8 there will be good accessible solutions, indeed if touch screen navigation, and other aplications become common on the pcthere might even be some reasonable justification for upgrading to windows 8 that imho there wasn't from xp to 7 as I said in our previous discussion, it'll all depend upon what happens in the next few years I suppose, - though I will say I'd be very sorry to give up my 40 inch flat screen tv that I currently have my pc (which is also my dvd player), gamecube and Snes plugged into, for low vision access to games it's amazingly clear and also larger than any tv I've had before. Though hopefully if the touch screen thing does come into practice, there will be a sensor similar to the one for the wiimote that could be used instead of a specially adapted screen. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Shaun, Well, if there is one constant in the universe it is change. nothing stays the same forever. The people who can't change will always be hit the hardest, because they are unable or simply unwilling to change their ways. Although, there are usually some alternative that helps make the change possible. For example, you mentioned Dos users who were perfectly happy with Dos. You know where many of those people are today? Do you know what they are using? Its pretty simple. I happen to know some VI Linux users on the Blinux and Speakup lists who don't use Windows and they don't use the Linux graphical user interface. Many of those Dos fans who wouldn't change are using Debian or some other Linux distribution with a plane shell environment, use the Speakup screen reader, and text based apps like Nano, Alpine, Links, etc. They've found a nitche market that suits them, and effectively are using a text based environment that has the look and feel of Dos, but is being regularly updated and maintained. My point is that we don't need an operating system specially made for the blind. There are plenty of off the shelf solutions for us to choose from. We don't have to settle for Windows 8 because there are other options available. For instance, if I really hated the Unity graphical desktop environment on Ubuntu 12 I could simply install a different desktop environment. there is Gnome Classic, Xfce is currently being made accessible, KDE 4.8 is somewhat accessible, and they are continuing to be updated, made accessible, and supported. Plus not to mention a blind user doesn't even have to use a graphical environment and can use the shell with Speakup and text based programs if that suits. So if one thing doesn't fly there is another option around the corner weather someone chooses to use it or not. There is no need to get worked up over this new technology and being scared that we'll have no access. Windows 8 is functionally usable if not as easily as XP. If that doesn't suit there is Mac and Linux which is an investment in time and money, but is an option if people really don't want to go down the Windows route. Cheers! On 4/23/2012 12:30 AM, shaun everiss wrote: I aggree with you in part, but not fully. Does anyknow or has anyone researched how long it takes us to catch up period? True ms is giving people a fair go, nvda is already going to the metro system I see it on the list, however, to be honest, for what we pay or are forced to pay for the comercial readers myself I wander how we can keep up. how will we afford something. I am not talking about the new borns, all the current to future generations will more than likely take it as standard and be able to handle it all. Its like the people that were dos guys to those that just used an icon interface. Now if something majorly goes wrong, just put a disk in and a reformat later its all fixed as reformatting always fixes things. Those people don't have time to worry. How for old fullas like myself I must say I am slightly scared of the touch screen, not against it but scared. THe keyboard for me is the way to go but then I used it always. If I were born again, i'd get a braille computer and a mac, windows would be a vertual machine maybe but I'd have a mac maybe a touch screen because it rocks. However I started with dos and now windows and have invested to much to go back. Its doubt for falas like me that we will find it easy to change to what is a unknow and forign viewpoint. Sure it probably makes sence I have no doubt that it does and I am sure once we are adapted to the new borg we will be happy in our function. However we are not borg and therefore it will take ages if at all for some of us to adapt. I plan to go 7 at some point but still keep an xp box. I don't need to upgrade my phone and even if I do, its more than likely it will be an older tech third dition nokia once again with the hundred buck reader on it because for what I use it for I need little else. That will change though. If I can comfortably read the screen like everyone else then fine. One thing I'd really like to do is view things like the sighted, pictures be announced, mouse movement feadback, etc. To play a sighted game, etc. This touch screen technology will probably develop that we can do that along with the ocr tech and we should be able to handle it. There are now bounds. Right now though the funds to buy all this stuff unless it becomes cheaper. screen readers bar nvda are excluded and also voice synths. Then there is the power vs need. Its doubtfull where I am that I will need anymore than a core2 unit with 2gb ram running old windows xp. And unless life takes a big leap foreward I will be running xp till I die or as long as I can get it. maybe 7 but sertainly not 8 or over unless it improves. I guess once keyboards are dropped to a secondary device that will change. However we were perfectly happy
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Shaun, Actually, you can't copy icons to the desktop in Windows 8. The desktop is basically an empty window for displaying your walpaper. The alternative solution is to pin an app or program to your taskbar. On 4/23/2012 12:43 AM, shaun everiss wrote: Well the columns are not to bad neither are the ribbons though I am an old dos hacker that likes to fly by the seat of my pants. If you never had to gut your config.sys to fix a problem or hack something on your box to optimise it knowing that at any second it could just go nuts and you'd have to start all over, well you don't have the drive. In a way windows is a bit more restricting. sure you can hack away but the registry is not happy you change one thing and will show it by taking out everything not just one module. A reformat is required to make it all work again and hence I don't touch things unless I need to. I also like the search boxes the fact I don't have to navigate stupid columns or lists like I have to do in xp really helps me a lot. even if I know part of what I want thats fine. I think for now we will have to have all our icons in folders on the desktop and navigate that that way annoying that it is. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi, Cononical the maker of Ubuntu Linux does. A lot of work has gone into the Ubuntu 12 beta to improve screen reader access over the last month of testing and I can say 12.04 is several times more accessible than 11.10 was six months ago. So you could add Cononical to your list of software companies who build accesibility into their product from the ground up. On 4/23/2012 1:32 AM, Darren Harris wrote: Apple rocks. Sorry but they do. What other manufacturer purposefully puts in accessibility from the ground up in their operating systems? Android hasn't, bb hasn't, nokia hasn't, yes nokia has a screen reader but it's not built into the phone. Nore has Microsoft. Touch screens are a weird concept but they aren't as difficult as all that. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Shawn, it sounds like you know a lot about computers from way back. You know now, they make you pay money and get degrees in what you learned how to do by the seat of your pants and your well worn boot straps. My husband feels the same way. He is a MIS, manager of information systems. He is not interested in programming or games at all, but he can clean out a computer and understands how they work and can set up any web page from the ground up. He learned all of that by just being there as the computer developed and by taking a few classes along the way which were paid for by his work. Sometimes I wish we were still back with good old dos. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 12:43 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Well the columns are not to bad neither are the ribbons though I am an old dos hacker that likes to fly by the seat of my pants. If you never had to gut your config.sys to fix a problem or hack something on your box to optimise it knowing that at any second it could just go nuts and you'd have to start all over, well you don't have the drive. In a way windows is a bit more restricting. sure you can hack away but the registry is not happy you change one thing and will show it by taking out everything not just one module. A reformat is required to make it all work again and hence I don't touch things unless I need to. I also like the search boxes the fact I don't have to navigate stupid columns or lists like I have to do in xp really helps me a lot. even if I know part of what I want thats fine. I think for now we will have to have all our icons in folders on the desktop and navigate that that way annoying that it is. At 02:09 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: I think keyboards will always be around for typing and word processing, which is a major part of business, since it's very difficult to imagine say stenography or other forms of dictation being done on a touch screen device. that being said, i have noticed a general trend in all sorts of media devices to present as much information in a single place as possible, adds, flashy arrows, and other stuff not withstanding. This is why windows 7 and 8 has the stupid columns layout, so that sighted people don't have to go through multiple screens of information and can have the lot in one place for quick visual overview, which is pretty bad for Vi users since that sort of layout is much more confusing. This is not just on pcs, but on touch screen devices, console game interfaces and lots of things, look at the wii mote and it's use in menues with floating icons (thank you nintendo!). On the plus side, some of these moves have not worked, ie, ribbons, and personalization seems a pretty major thing as well, so it might be that we end up with devices that have! touch screens with large informational displays, but which can be altered in their display settings to show less information, we'll just have to see. then again, the world economic situation at the moment is so loopy, goodness knows what is going to happen to technological developement over the next few years, especially over the next 10 or 20 years when more people who are big internet users and gamers start becoming blind, - heck the webmaster of retroremakes.com is in his early 40's. Then of course there is voice control, a feature which lots of sighted users actually want as well since it offers a very much faster way of doing things, and one which I think we'll be seeing increase, - assuming the world doesn't go blong with some sort of cataclysmic economic and/or military crash, which unfortunately also seems quite a possibility. So, it's probably going to be a case of wait and see what happens, find ways that work for you personally, and watch where the over all trends go. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Desiree Oudinot turtlepowe...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, we're way past the point where devices with keyboards will be as heavily marketed as they used to be. Unfortunately, what most people are saying is true--the demand for touch screens is a lot higher than the demand for buttons and keyboards. Just look at home appliances that only use touch screens, forcing us to either label them or search for longer than we should have to for older models that are more accessible. My attitude is that, you may have to jump through a few hoops down the road to get the technology you want if you stick to what works for you, but it should pay off in the end. While I definitely do think there's a possibility that all devices with buttons could be fazed out, I don't think it's near enough in the future that we need to panic or complain about it for now
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, Definitely. When I began developing my own game engine I used the GMA engine as a guide. Obviously, I didn't copy it outright but some of the concepts are the same such as using f1 to bring up a menu of hot keys, similar navigation aids, having markers, and other things like that are in the USA Games engine. Although, I can play Monkey Business, I own the game, I equally have issues navigating around in it. The review commands and the over all way a person gets feedback is not intuitive for a blind user. So I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. :D Cheers! On 4/22/2012 1:42 PM, dark wrote: Hi Phil. That's one of the things I most like in the gma engine, there are a hole range of distance and informational commands, and each person can decide which ones they prefer. As I said, I myself use audio landmarks and directions, so would use the directional cumpas with a bit of help from coordinates, but I know other people are more in to counting steps etc. I'm sure Tom will also include this with his engine as well. i must confess the only audio fps game I've never had any luck with at all is Monkey business, precisely because! the object scanner, sonar and other navaids are so imprecise in that game. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
SERI is still in beta stage. It works for some things, but not others. I wouldn't use it in noisy environments for sure. Even in a car or bus, there's probably too much external noise for SERI to work as well as it does in a quiet room. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:37 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I also have an iPhone 4 S. I really love it, but I do have problems with Seri responding. Do you have any suggestions? Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Harmony Neil Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:18 AM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Agree with Michael. I hated the iPhone 3gs at first, so went back to a nokia. However, I got my iPhone 4 in June last year, and wouldn't swap it for a nokia any day. Anyway, in terms of accessibility, Apple wins the race. Just a shame the android phones etc can't have the same feature for free like Apple, but no, if you want to get an android phone to be accessible, you have to get someone to download the mobile access onto the phone, then pay £59 or so for it to work fully (that Is to say, not a demo). Ok, rant over, or else we might as well be posting on the blind phones list. Hahaha. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Taboada Sent: 21 April 2012 21:17 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi, This kind of defeats the point of a touch screen. The point of a touch screen is to not need buttons, and apple's done, in my opinion, an amazing job of making it accessible. If you wanted them to have buttons just because blind people can't, if only just slightly, use a touch screen as well as the sighted, then they'd have to make a totally separate model just for blind people, which would get us back to square one with separate devices. Hth, -Michael. -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 3:14 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, Well I feel they've as good as done that, otherwise they would have given us solid ground to work on. Yes, you could argue that the delay helps us not to touch things accidentally, but why have that there in the first place when you can have buttons that are separated, easy to find, and easy to know what you are activating? Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Dirty? Wow. I certainly don't see it as such. After all, if they hadn't changed how the screen worked we would be constantly activating things by accident anytime we so much as touched the screen. And I certainly don't see it as conning the law, otherwise all they would have done was developed something like Microsoft Narrator or just told us tough luck. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:38 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, The thing is, they're only accessible because we've had to use dirty workarounds to access things that sighted people can access quicker than we can even use a computer. They can see which part of the screen they are touching, they can see how to do all the moves right, so they've got no need to worry. They seem to have it all handed to them on a plate where we have to crawl in the dirt to get access to what we need. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I think you're missing the point though. Touch screens are cheaper to make and qite frankl last longer since eventually buttons will give out. My laptop for instance is missing te Tab key. Besides, now tat it's been proven that touch screens CAN be made accessible I can see a big leap forward in terms of our technology. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 11:25 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion and think that adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt twisted pro sighted business way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination. The fact that so many VI people have found a way to conquer that is rather
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Paulette, that is exactly right, though i will confess the colossal cave rather got on my whick since I just find those sorts of puzzles more frustrating than anything else, since the logic required to solve them is just not reasonable much of the time, though wandering around the cave was itself a lot of fun. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, I think that I do my visualizing sort of like you. I never was good with maps. I associate things with other things. For instance, I know that I go north to get out of the building in the Colossal Cave adventure game and that I need to go west to get into the cave once I get into the first passage. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:59 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien. it's not association, it's just memory. I don't remember say for instance gr first letters of grass so I go right, I just remember that on that particular route grass is where I turn right, that is it. Some landmarks I use are visual, like the low white wall, some are tactile like crossings, heck some are even smell, it's just a technique I've built up over several years. It actually used to really piss me off when mobility trainers used to try and force me to mental map, and asked me things like which direction are you going now heck, I don't know! indeed the best person for mobility was my mum since she is A, visually impared and B, quite totally aware of the way I do things. These days though, as happened when I went to egypt last year, i find I can pretty much select and learn my own landmarks just by following someone the first, and occasionally the second or third time. This helps hugely on stage, since I know if I need to be to the right of and slightly behind someone else, say the king, I can get there, without needing to worry about what else is on the stage or where. Like everything else though, this is all about practice and training, and there's really no way to improve at it other than try, try, try again! I'd actually suggest perhaps you could download a game like shades or terraformers, try it with this idea in mind and practice until you have the memorization of directions down, then maybe try a short journey, say a basic left right. Actually, this could be a very short example game, giving you random objects and associating them with three directions, and asking you to memorize simon style, say right train, left bench etc. I'd always say that whether it's music, getting around, cooking or just about anything else, the best asset a visually impared person has is their memory, - indeed I'm actually quite amazed sometimes when I find for instance that my friends, who are a long way from stupid, can't for instance remember a ten digit phone number without having to write it down. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, You sound a bit like me, though even that long list of directions to your school you posted I wouldn't be able to remember all that in a matter of months. It was a similarly short route if not shorter to the bus stop and I couldn't remember that for the life of me. It doesn't help that I'm not good with association either, so I can't exactly associate, say a bench to the fact that there'll be a road in 30 seconds, so I always end up getting lost anyway. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Tom. I disagree on visualization or spacial awareness, since that is a skill i just do not have. This is why I find a game like battleships, patience/solitare, mine sweeper, chess, or even draughts/checkers nearly impossible to play unless the board is in front of me in either a visual or tactile form for me to get that sort of overview, since I just cannot maintain the memory of where each object is after the audio view of it has moved on. That being said, i do find gma tank commander and shades of doom possible, but my mental way of playing is probably different from other peoples, since instead of attempting to build up a larger, mental map of the entire location, I simply work by memorizing the relations betwene landmarks, and the directions provided by the coordinates system. For example, I know in the first level of shades of doom, that you follow the corridors until you get to the end of one with two doors, one
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Agree with Michael. I hated the iPhone 3gs at first, so went back to a nokia. However, I got my iPhone 4 in June last year, and wouldn't swap it for a nokia any day. Anyway, in terms of accessibility, Apple wins the race. Just a shame the android phones etc can't have the same feature for free like Apple, but no, if you want to get an android phone to be accessible, you have to get someone to download the mobile access onto the phone, then pay £59 or so for it to work fully (that Is to say, not a demo). Ok, rant over, or else we might as well be posting on the blind phones list. Hahaha. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Taboada Sent: 21 April 2012 21:17 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi, This kind of defeats the point of a touch screen. The point of a touch screen is to not need buttons, and apple's done, in my opinion, an amazing job of making it accessible. If you wanted them to have buttons just because blind people can't, if only just slightly, use a touch screen as well as the sighted, then they'd have to make a totally separate model just for blind people, which would get us back to square one with separate devices. Hth, -Michael. -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 3:14 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, Well I feel they've as good as done that, otherwise they would have given us solid ground to work on. Yes, you could argue that the delay helps us not to touch things accidentally, but why have that there in the first place when you can have buttons that are separated, easy to find, and easy to know what you are activating? Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Dirty? Wow. I certainly don't see it as such. After all, if they hadn't changed how the screen worked we would be constantly activating things by accident anytime we so much as touched the screen. And I certainly don't see it as conning the law, otherwise all they would have done was developed something like Microsoft Narrator or just told us tough luck. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:38 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, The thing is, they're only accessible because we've had to use dirty workarounds to access things that sighted people can access quicker than we can even use a computer. They can see which part of the screen they are touching, they can see how to do all the moves right, so they've got no need to worry. They seem to have it all handed to them on a plate where we have to crawl in the dirt to get access to what we need. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I think you're missing the point though. Touch screens are cheaper to make and qite frankl last longer since eventually buttons will give out. My laptop for instance is missing te Tab key. Besides, now tat it's been proven that touch screens CAN be made accessible I can see a big leap forward in terms of our technology. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 11:25 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion and think that adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt twisted pro sighted business way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination. The fact that so many VI people have found a way to conquer that is rather impressive to me, and if that's the case, then so be it. But I think it's rather unnecessary to have to do that when the business itself should make more of an effort. Just because they don't know we exist, or choose to believe we don't exist, doesn't make us go away. And if companies continue to design things in their own eye happy way, in another twenty or thirty years it's probably unlikely we'd be able to use anything in the mainstream market and we'll be right back to square one with specially designed excessively expensive products and the like. That's only my opinion, I know tons of you won't agree, but this debate goes slightly away from games so I don't want this to turn into a full blown argument as to which is the best operating system to work with. That's me off
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recently heard that Nokia was dropping support for Symbian OS in favor of Windows Mobile. If so I'm sorry to say you won't be in any better shape. The reason I say that is because Windows 8 is designed exclusively for touchscreen devices. If Nokia is looking at dropping Symbian in favor of Windows Mobile then it seems to me there is a good chance Nokia is planning on following in Apple's footsteps with a touchscreen phone at some point. Which wouldn't surprise me at all considering the current market trends towards touchscreen enabled devices. Anyway, the point I want to make is while a developer such as myself could technically target Symbian devices using C++ or Python I'm not that sure that Symbian is as popular as it once was. Many mainstream and blind smart phone users are either using an iOS device like the iPhone or running a Droid phone with DroidOS. As a audio game developer I'd have to consider wich smart phones are the most financially viable for an audio game and right now it looks like iOS has cornered the market with Droid OS as a close second. With Nocia's deal with Microsoft for Windows Mobile it looks like Symbian is not going to be a very big market for audio game developers. That's the way I see it. On 4/21/2012 9:53 AM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Thomas, Well, if there are going to be games for the mobile market, I'd love to see some for Nokia devices running Simbian. More and more games are coming out for IOS devices and it'd be nice to see some for devices that are more accessible. Sure, Apple try and do the voiceover app, but when I tried an IPhone it was pointless and useless since the interface was purely all touch screen. How other blind people manage with it is beyond me and goes straight over my head. I tried it for two weeks before I got impatient with it so I went back to the lovely button operated Nokia and Talks setup again. I'd support Simbian myself, but looks like it's a trek down C++ lane, which doesn't sound appealing. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:18 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Karl, I've heard a lot of good things about it, hence the reason I thought I'd give it a go. But as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a strenuous tedious ballache. It took me over five minutes to dial a phone number, and I didn't even know how to access anything on it, so I dread to think what I'd be like with gaming. It just seemed like a total waste of time and money. And that's why now I wouldn't touch a touch screen device with a bargepole. As for Nokia now choosing Windows, that actually seems better, since there's a whole lot of games already out for Windows. Don't know how accessible it'll be, I suppose it depends how good current screenreaders support it. Though again if it's anything like or complex than Vista, I think I'll give it a miss. Probably just use it for phone calls and gaming. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, Yeah, touchscreens can be nice once you get use to them. I didn't find them as difficult as I thought they'd be, but there apparently not for everybody. Like everything else in life it all depends on how much effort, time, and energy you are willing to commit to learning the new interface. The best way I can describe it is cane travel verses a dog guide. With cane travel a blind person uses his/her cane to stay in contact with the world around them such as the tree lawn, walls, staircases, parked cars, etc. With a guide dog the dog avoids polls, trash bins, parked cars, and just about everything a blind cane traveler is taught to use as landmarks. The difference between a keyboard and touchscreen is similar. With a keyboard or keypad there are buttons and keys in the same place that a blind person can use to orient himself or herself with. With a touchscreen it is a flat plastic surface with no physical landmarks to orient the blind user. Instead a blind user must use his/her memory and mental image of the screen layout to point at a specific area of the screen and tap the correct icon, menu option, etc. On the iPhone, at least, it helps that you get some verbal feedback as to what you are doing. This is nothing more than a hunch but I'm guessing people who are having trouble with touchscreens have a very poor sense of spacial orientation. They have difficulty visualizing the locations of things on the screen and aren't sure where to put their fingers to activate a certain icon etc. They are easily confused by the user interface because they are unable to form a mental image of the screen and how it is laid out for the sighted user. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:55 PM, dark wrote: I must admit I'm planning on an Iphone myself when my laptop busts, since these days I just need something portable, and there are more and more really awsom sounding games for it. I understand there will be a learning curve, but actually I will probably use games to help me with that, for instance playing text games to learn about screen navigation, the same way that playing online web games got me familiar with site navigation. Of course, I've not tried one yet, so I might be jumping to conclusions, but from the sound of it touch screens are the way to go, and I'm intreagued by the idea of one that works with screen reading. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:18 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Karl, I've heard a lot of good things about it, hence the reason I thought I'd give it a go. But as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a strenuous tedious ballache. It took me over five minutes to dial a phone number, and I didn't even know how to access anything on it, so I dread to think what I'd be like with gaming. It just seemed like a total waste of time and money. And that's why now I wouldn't touch a touch screen device with a bargepole. As for Nokia now choosing Windows, that actually seems better, since there's a whole lot of games already out for Windows. Don't know how accessible it'll be, I suppose it depends how good current screenreaders support it. Though again if it's anything like or complex than Vista, I think I'll give it a miss. Probably just use it for phone calls and gaming. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Thomas, I think you've hit the nail on the head with me. I've never been sighted and therefore never been able to really visualise things. It's like even in the real world, I constantly find myself wondering why cars and pedestrians don't bother going straight forwards rather than sideways, only to be told, They are going forwards. This is also significant in a gaming context, I think this is why I struggle with games such as Shades of Doom. To be able to at least think that I could play GMA Tank Commander, I had to listen to someone else play it and then memorise all the directions, but I couldn't visualise the world. Plus, as I said in a previous post, my fingers are constantly in the way so I can never quite perform the correct action to get it to do what I want, and that is so frustrating. The amount of times I wanted to chuck my stupid IPhone out the window was more than I could count. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, Yeah, touchscreens can be nice once you get use to them. I didn't find them as difficult as I thought they'd be, but there apparently not for everybody. Like everything else in life it all depends on how much effort, time, and energy you are willing to commit to learning the new interface. The best way I can describe it is cane travel verses a dog guide. With cane travel a blind person uses his/her cane to stay in contact with the world around them such as the tree lawn, walls, staircases, parked cars, etc. With a guide dog the dog avoids polls, trash bins, parked cars, and just about everything a blind cane traveler is taught to use as landmarks. The difference between a keyboard and touchscreen is similar. With a keyboard or keypad there are buttons and keys in the same place that a blind person can use to orient himself or herself with. With a touchscreen it is a flat plastic surface with no physical landmarks to orient the blind user. Instead a blind user must use his/her memory and mental image of the screen layout to point at a specific area of the screen and tap the correct icon, menu option, etc. On the iPhone, at least, it helps that you get some verbal feedback as to what you are doing. This is nothing more than a hunch but I'm guessing people who are having trouble with touchscreens have a very poor sense of spacial orientation. They have difficulty visualizing the locations of things on the screen and aren't sure where to put their fingers to activate a certain icon etc. They are easily confused by the user interface because they are unable to form a mental image of the screen and how it is laid out for the sighted user. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:55 PM, dark wrote: I must admit I'm planning on an Iphone myself when my laptop busts, since these days I just need something portable, and there are more and more really awsom sounding games for it. I understand there will be a learning curve, but actually I will probably use games to help me with that, for instance playing text games to learn about screen navigation, the same way that playing online web games got me familiar with site navigation. Of course, I've not tried one yet, so I might be jumping to conclusions, but from the sound of it touch screens are the way to go, and I'm intreagued by the idea of one that works with screen reading. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there is a cost saving in not having to build a keyboard for a computer. In fact, I'm not surprised we're not seeing more monitors with the ability to handle touch-screen commands. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:18 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Karl, I've heard a lot of good things about it, hence the reason I thought I'd give it a go. But as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a strenuous tedious ballache. It took me over five minutes to dial a phone number, and I didn't even know how to access anything on it, so I dread to think what I'd be like with gaming. It just seemed like a total waste of time and money. And that's why now I wouldn't touch a touch screen device with a bargepole. As for Nokia now choosing Windows, that actually seems better, since there's a whole lot of games already out for Windows. Don't know how accessible it'll be, I suppose it depends how good current screenreaders support it. Though again if it's anything like or complex than Vista, I think I'll give it a miss. Probably just use it for phone calls and gaming. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, I understand the fact you don't like touchscreens very much, say you hate them, but I'd like to know why you think Apple is conning the law. Aside from yourself many blind users own and use iPhones with no problems at all and as Cara pointed out on the list a few days ago there is more than 1,400 blind users on the iPhone mailing list. That tells me contrary to conning the law many blind users are quite happy with the level of accessibility with their iPhones. I don't want to sound rude or condescending, but it sounds like because you personally have problems using iPhones then you are effectively saying the same is true for everyone else. That's not true. Its not a matter of conquering the device, but simply learning from other blind users techniques they use to access their iPhone. Perhaps if you had hands on training from a fellow blind iPhone user you would be able to figure it out by asking questions and having someone there to show you a better way of doing this or that. Its like anything else. We learn through reading tutorials or having hands on training if we just don't get it. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 1:25 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion and think that adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt twisted pro sighted business way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination. The fact that so many VI people have found a way to conquer that is rather impressive to me, and if that's the case, then so be it. But I think it's rather unnecessary to have to do that when the business itself should make more of an effort. Just because they don't know we exist, or choose to believe we don't exist, doesn't make us go away. And if companies continue to design things in their own eye happy way, in another twenty or thirty years it's probably unlikely we'd be able to use anything in the mainstream market and we'll be right back to square one with specially designed excessively expensive products and the like. That's only my opinion, I know tons of you won't agree, but this debate goes slightly away from games so I don't want this to turn into a full blown argument as to which is the best operating system to work with. That's me off my soapbox now. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Bryan, Not only that, but I don't think we have much of a choice. I've seen the way Windows 8, Ubuntu Linux 12.04, etc are going and most of the software developers are moving to a touchscreen type user interface. Everyone and their uncle is copying Apple's iOS design and that can only mean that the mainstream market is preparing to add touchscreen technology to a wide range of technologies including the next generation desktops, laptops, and netbooks. No matter how much we love or hate touchscreens I see them becoming a standard input device over the next ten years if not sooner. Rather than complaining about it I think we should do our best to adapt to them, and our efforts should be focused on making sure the new technology is as accessible as it can be. On 4/21/2012 2:00 PM, bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: I think you're missing the point though. Touch screens are cheaper to make and qite frankl last longer since eventually buttons will give out. My laptop for instance is missing te Tab key. Besides, now tat it's been proven that touch screens CAN be made accessible I can see a big leap forward in terms of our technology. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Thomas, One blind guy did attempt to show me. In fact, if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't have got my IPhone set up at all. But he had to spend over two hours on the phone setting the stupid thing up. Then when it was set up he tried to tell me what to do with it, and I was constantly getting it wrong. Then it ended up locking, and I couldn't get it unlocked. When I finally did, after about another half an hour, it took me ages to access things. Roughly five minutes to go from item to item trying to figure out how to activate it and see what was there. Over the next two weeks I was using it I'd had conversation after conversation with person after person after person who was trying their level best to tell me how to do something, and I still didn't get anywhere. I was scandalised, I felt like I was having to sit there like a four or five year old learning their alphabet. I couldn't even do something as simple as dial a phone number without sitting there for five minutes, and I couldn't access my phonebook at all. And due to past experiences with companies being inconsiderable or in some cases downright rude and disrespectful to disabled people, I believed that the IPhone was just another one of those. Sometimes I feel like sighted people rub their ability to see in our faces and laugh at us. And that's why I believed it to be a con. It almost feels like we get used to one method, then they see how well we cope with it, so they change it just to throw us off track again so they can tap around like there's no tomorrow and sit there and see us struggling for five or ten minutes to find an item trying to get used to the new interface. Again, I can see why it would be more convenient for sighted people. No scrolling, no highlighting or single/double clicking, just a single tap in a location on screen, and they've got what they want. And why not have that option available, but also keep traditional input methods in as well for people who might struggle with that. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, I understand the fact you don't like touchscreens very much, say you hate them, but I'd like to know why you think Apple is conning the law. Aside from yourself many blind users own and use iPhones with no problems at all and as Cara pointed out on the list a few days ago there is more than 1,400 blind users on the iPhone mailing list. That tells me contrary to conning the law many blind users are quite happy with the level of accessibility with their iPhones. I don't want to sound rude or condescending, but it sounds like because you personally have problems using iPhones then you are effectively saying the same is true for everyone else. That's not true. Its not a matter of conquering the device, but simply learning from other blind users techniques they use to access their iPhone. Perhaps if you had hands on training from a fellow blind iPhone user you would be able to figure it out by asking questions and having someone there to show you a better way of doing this or that. Its like anything else. We learn through reading tutorials or having hands on training if we just don't get it. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 1:25 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion and think that adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt twisted pro sighted business way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination. The fact that so many VI people have found a way to conquer that is rather impressive to me, and if that's the case, then so be it. But I think it's rather unnecessary to have to do that when the business itself should make more of an effort. Just because they don't know we exist, or choose to believe we don't exist, doesn't make us go away. And if companies continue to design things in their own eye happy way, in another twenty or thirty years it's probably unlikely we'd be able to use anything in the mainstream market and we'll be right back to square one with specially designed excessively expensive products and the like. That's only my opinion, I know tons of you won't agree, but this debate goes slightly away from games so I don't want this to turn into a full blown argument as to which is the best operating system to work with. That's me off my soapbox now. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Fred, This is true, but keyboards have been a traditional part of computers since I don't know when. When you're brought up with one method, spend 17 years on it, get so used to it that you are accessing information at speeds you would have never thought possible, and they make computers faster, but change not only software, but also hardware interfaces, so that those who are used to one thing have to go right back to learning from scratch again, like you would when you are four or five years old. In my view, that stinks. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: fred olver goodfo...@charter.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there is a cost saving in not having to build a keyboard for a computer. In fact, I'm not surprised we're not seeing more monitors with the ability to handle touch-screen commands. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:18 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Karl, I've heard a lot of good things about it, hence the reason I thought I'd give it a go. But as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a strenuous tedious ballache. It took me over five minutes to dial a phone number, and I didn't even know how to access anything on it, so I dread to think what I'd be like with gaming. It just seemed like a total waste of time and money. And that's why now I wouldn't touch a touch screen device with a bargepole. As for Nokia now choosing Windows, that actually seems better, since there's a whole lot of games already out for Windows. Don't know how accessible it'll be, I suppose it depends how good current screenreaders support it. Though again if it's anything like or complex than Vista, I think I'll give it a miss. Probably just use it for phone calls and gaming. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Bryan, Well, I'm sure there will still be keyboards around. After all even though Windows 8 is designed for touchscreen input people who have to type reports, fill in spreadsheets, etc can do that much faster than with a touchscreen. What I think we'll see is a combo of touchscreen and keyboard input on newdesktops, laptops, netbooks, tablets, etc. For example, you might buy a laptop with both a keyboard and a touchscreen. The touchscreen can be used like a mouse to activate icons, scroll through text on the screen, and navigate around your Windows 8 laptop. The keyboard will be available for typing documents and entering large amounts of data etc. So we'll end up with the best of both worlds in that instance. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 4:25 PM, bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: Agreed. Besides, unless I'm much mistaken there are protective cases for the IPhone that turn it into a button device for those who need them. Nor are they that expensive. All Liam and other game devs are doing by turning to the IOS platform is trying to turn audio gaming into a multiplatform rather than a Windows only market. As unlikely as it may be I hope for the sake of the naysayers out there that touch screens don't eventually supplant keyboards as the coming thing, otherwise gaming will be the least of the activities they'll be locked out of. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I would like to play that pack of old games. Could you please give me the information for downloading the pack? Thanks. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of michael barnes Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:55 PM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hey, Damien. One of the nice thing about the iPhone is that alot of old games are being ported over to the mobile platform. For exsample the old DOS games by Richard De Steno, have been put in a game pack and now people can play those games with all the classic sounds and gameplay. The iPhone has been a big help to me since I have had mine since 2010. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/20/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, I think the answer is simply that a touchscreen is generally easier for a sighted user. You know as I do that the mainstream sighted market is 99% of a companies business and nobody including Apple are going to market a special iPhone for the remaining 1% of the population without sight. If they do its going to be very expensive so Apple has done the next best thing by incorperating as much accessibility as possible into the standard iPhone. On 4/21/2012 4:36 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Michael, My point exactly. So, the solution is, why make a touch screen in the first place? The sighted used to work with buttons, why not now? It'll be just the same for them, and easier for us. That'll make things equal on all sides. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks (touch screen technology)
they even have a keyboard that you can dock to the iPad if not wanting to do touch. At 08:55 PM 4/21/2012, you wrote: For Damien: If he really wants to have a keyboard for an iPad, there are wireless keyboards available that can be used to type in items like search fields, addresses and the like. One of the folks in our company has one and uses it with an iPad 2. It seems to work very well. It seems to me that Apple has tried to make their products accessible. They have a built-in voice. You don't have to use a third party package like JAWS or WindowsEyes to have things read to you. Yes - there still aren't a lot of accessible games, but people are writing them and making them available on the App store. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I can't imagine laptops going to touch screens, as this would just about kill the touch typing method for blind people. I would certainly hope that there would be a way to connect an external keyboard? A touch screen laptop, unless it works as the iPhone does, would be extremely difficult for us to use. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
You better hang on to that phone as long as you can, because even support for the new nokias are going. Even the new nokia is moving to touch. Everyone can learn new things in time, but it takes a open mind to want to learn it. At 05:06 PM 4/21/2012, you wrote: Hi Brian, What I'm trying to say is, the very nature of a touch screen device makes it seem rather inaccessible, no matter how many attempts and tweaks you make at it. It'd be like giving a computer user a mouse, a screenreader, but no keyboard. The fact is, blind people cannot see the screen, so it would take them way longer than should be necessary to access things that could be accessed in seconds. As for the button-style cases, again. Good plan, if it weren't for the fact that the screen was constantly changing, and therefore you're still tapping, or pressing, for longer than necessary, trying to find what you need. There are only two buttons on a Simbian based Nokia at least, that change on a regular basis. Those are your two soft keys, and talks always announces them to you before you even press them. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I'd say that the fact that Apple attempted to develop a way to make touch screens accessible is a big score in their favor, not an attempt to con the law. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
You're missing one of the points, though. You say that you shouldn't have to spend 5 minutes doing what should take seconds, but, what you're not realizing is that, with practice and familiarity with the device, your speed and accuracy increases, cutting down the time. Although you may not be able to keep up with sighted people when texting and other applications, you can get proficient enough with the device so that it isn't all that time consuming. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I don't know if this would help, but this is how I became familiar with the iPhone screen. I am totally blind and have never seen, so the first few times I used the iPhone, I asked my husband to help me. I had no idea what a screen lay out looked from a sighted person's perspective. He told me in detail how the first screen of the iPhone is layed out and then answered my numerous questions throughout the morning. Needless to say we did this on a Saturday when he was home. I also got the book about getting started with the iPhone from NBP, but I will be glad to see the new one, because this one is a bit dated. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Damien Pendleton Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:26 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, I think you've hit the nail on the head with me. I've never been sighted and therefore never been able to really visualise things. It's like even in the real world, I constantly find myself wondering why cars and pedestrians don't bother going straight forwards rather than sideways, only to be told, They are going forwards. This is also significant in a gaming context, I think this is why I struggle with games such as Shades of Doom. To be able to at least think that I could play GMA Tank Commander, I had to listen to someone else play it and then memorise all the directions, but I couldn't visualise the world. Plus, as I said in a previous post, my fingers are constantly in the way so I can never quite perform the correct action to get it to do what I want, and that is so frustrating. The amount of times I wanted to chuck my stupid IPhone out the window was more than I could count. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, Yeah, touchscreens can be nice once you get use to them. I didn't find them as difficult as I thought they'd be, but there apparently not for everybody. Like everything else in life it all depends on how much effort, time, and energy you are willing to commit to learning the new interface. The best way I can describe it is cane travel verses a dog guide. With cane travel a blind person uses his/her cane to stay in contact with the world around them such as the tree lawn, walls, staircases, parked cars, etc. With a guide dog the dog avoids polls, trash bins, parked cars, and just about everything a blind cane traveler is taught to use as landmarks. The difference between a keyboard and touchscreen is similar. With a keyboard or keypad there are buttons and keys in the same place that a blind person can use to orient himself or herself with. With a touchscreen it is a flat plastic surface with no physical landmarks to orient the blind user. Instead a blind user must use his/her memory and mental image of the screen layout to point at a specific area of the screen and tap the correct icon, menu option, etc. On the iPhone, at least, it helps that you get some verbal feedback as to what you are doing. This is nothing more than a hunch but I'm guessing people who are having trouble with touchscreens have a very poor sense of spacial orientation. They have difficulty visualizing the locations of things on the screen and aren't sure where to put their fingers to activate a certain icon etc. They are easily confused by the user interface because they are unable to form a mental image of the screen and how it is laid out for the sighted user. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:55 PM, dark wrote: I must admit I'm planning on an Iphone myself when my laptop busts, since these days I just need something portable, and there are more and more really awsom sounding games for it. I understand there will be a learning curve, but actually I will probably use games to help me with that, for instance playing text games to learn about screen navigation, the same way that playing online web games got me familiar with site navigation. Of course, I've not tried one yet, so I might be jumping to conclusions, but from the sound of it touch screens are the way to go, and I'm intreagued by the idea of one that works with screen reading. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I will agree with damien's point about access. it is true that even a pc with the best screen reader is not of the same level of access, ie, effortlessness as a sighted user would experience. for example, I am right now checking my mails. I have to look at (ie listen to supernova tell me), the title, subject, sender etc of each as I arrow through them, deleting some, replying to others etc. A sighted user could skim read all the mails on a page in a short space, and delete spam or unnecessary mail very much more quickly using the mouse, simply by virute of the screen overview. So, access technology is not currently, even on the best system the equal of what a sighted person does, and I expect the Iphone is in the same catagory. That being said, unfortunately there isn't a choice. As said with the windows 7 debate, microsoft are going for inconvenient, flashy interfaces with no way of changing their look or feel, simply because they are motivated only by the acquisition of prophit and nothing else, however, failing a massive change in world policy there's not much we can do about this, other than try what workarounds are! available and try to promote more access. i'm in fact quite amazed any sort of screen reading exists for touch screens at all, since I would've expected the same response as I myself got when requesting more accessible menue updates for the Wii from Nintendo, there aren't enough visually impared people to make us money developing it! So, all we can do is live with the workarounds, try and promote access, and get what good use we can out of what is there. That's why I myself will be getting an Ipad or Iphone hopefully in the near future. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
You can also use dictation. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 8:47 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks You're missing one of the points, though. You say that you shouldn't have to spend 5 minutes doing what should take seconds, but, what you're not realizing is that, with practice and familiarity with the device, your speed and accuracy increases, cutting down the time. Although you may not be able to keep up with sighted people when texting and other applications, you can get proficient enough with the device so that it isn't all that time consuming. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/20/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I think keyboards will always be around for typing and word processing, which is a major part of business, since it's very difficult to imagine say stenography or other forms of dictation being done on a touch screen device. that being said, i have noticed a general trend in all sorts of media devices to present as much information in a single place as possible, adds, flashy arrows, and other stuff not withstanding. This is why windows 7 and 8 has the stupid columns layout, so that sighted people don't have to go through multiple screens of information and can have the lot in one place for quick visual overview, which is pretty bad for Vi users since that sort of layout is much more confusing. This is not just on pcs, but on touch screen devices, console game interfaces and lots of things, look at the wii mote and it's use in menues with floating icons (thank you nintendo!). On the plus side, some of these moves have not worked, ie, ribbons, and personalization seems a pretty major thing as well, so it might be that we end up with devices that have! touch screens with large informational displays, but which can be altered in their display settings to show less information, we'll just have to see. then again, the world economic situation at the moment is so loopy, goodness knows what is going to happen to technological developement over the next few years, especially over the next 10 or 20 years when more people who are big internet users and gamers start becoming blind, - heck the webmaster of retroremakes.com is in his early 40's. Then of course there is voice control, a feature which lots of sighted users actually want as well since it offers a very much faster way of doing things, and one which I think we'll be seeing increase, - assuming the world doesn't go blong with some sort of cataclysmic economic and/or military crash, which unfortunately also seems quite a possibility. So, it's probably going to be a case of wait and see what happens, find ways that work for you personally, and watch where the over all trends go. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Desiree Oudinot turtlepowe...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, we're way past the point where devices with keyboards will be as heavily marketed as they used to be. Unfortunately, what most people are saying is true--the demand for touch screens is a lot higher than the demand for buttons and keyboards. Just look at home appliances that only use touch screens, forcing us to either label them or search for longer than we should have to for older models that are more accessible. My attitude is that, you may have to jump through a few hoops down the road to get the technology you want if you stick to what works for you, but it should pay off in the end. While I definitely do think there's a possibility that all devices with buttons could be fazed out, I don't think it's near enough in the future that we need to panic or complain about it for now. I'm going to cross that bridge when I come to it, if it ever even happens. On 4/21/12, bpeterson2...@cableone.net bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: This is only the first attempt. I don't doubt that in the future they'll be able to be made even more accessible than they are now. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 3:06 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, What I'm trying to say is, the very nature of a touch screen device makes it seem rather inaccessible, no matter how many attempts and tweaks you make at it. It'd be like giving a computer user a mouse, a screenreader, but no keyboard. The fact is, blind people cannot see the screen, so it would take them way longer than should be necessary to access things that could be accessed in seconds. As for the button-style cases, again. Good plan, if it weren't for the fact that the screen was constantly changing, and therefore you're still tapping, or pressing, for longer than necessary, trying to find what you need. There are only two buttons on a Simbian based Nokia at least, that change on a regular basis. Those are your two soft keys, and talks always announces them to you before you even press them. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I'd say that the fact that Apple attempted to develop a way to make touch screens accessible is a big score in their favor, not an attempt to con the law. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I also have an iPhone 4 S. I really love it, but I do have problems with Seri responding. Do you have any suggestions? Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Harmony Neil Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:18 AM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Agree with Michael. I hated the iPhone 3gs at first, so went back to a nokia. However, I got my iPhone 4 in June last year, and wouldn't swap it for a nokia any day. Anyway, in terms of accessibility, Apple wins the race. Just a shame the android phones etc can't have the same feature for free like Apple, but no, if you want to get an android phone to be accessible, you have to get someone to download the mobile access onto the phone, then pay £59 or so for it to work fully (that Is to say, not a demo). Ok, rant over, or else we might as well be posting on the blind phones list. Hahaha. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Taboada Sent: 21 April 2012 21:17 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi, This kind of defeats the point of a touch screen. The point of a touch screen is to not need buttons, and apple's done, in my opinion, an amazing job of making it accessible. If you wanted them to have buttons just because blind people can't, if only just slightly, use a touch screen as well as the sighted, then they'd have to make a totally separate model just for blind people, which would get us back to square one with separate devices. Hth, -Michael. -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 3:14 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, Well I feel they've as good as done that, otherwise they would have given us solid ground to work on. Yes, you could argue that the delay helps us not to touch things accidentally, but why have that there in the first place when you can have buttons that are separated, easy to find, and easy to know what you are activating? Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Dirty? Wow. I certainly don't see it as such. After all, if they hadn't changed how the screen worked we would be constantly activating things by accident anytime we so much as touched the screen. And I certainly don't see it as conning the law, otherwise all they would have done was developed something like Microsoft Narrator or just told us tough luck. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 1:38 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, The thing is, they're only accessible because we've had to use dirty workarounds to access things that sighted people can access quicker than we can even use a computer. They can see which part of the screen they are touching, they can see how to do all the moves right, so they've got no need to worry. They seem to have it all handed to them on a plate where we have to crawl in the dirt to get access to what we need. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I think you're missing the point though. Touch screens are cheaper to make and qite frankl last longer since eventually buttons will give out. My laptop for instance is missing te Tab key. Besides, now tat it's been proven that touch screens CAN be made accessible I can see a big leap forward in terms of our technology. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 11:25 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion and think that adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt twisted pro sighted business way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination. The fact that so many VI people have found a way to conquer that is rather impressive to me, and if that's the case, then so be it. But I think it's rather unnecessary to have to do that when the business itself should make more of an effort. Just because they don't know we exist, or choose to believe we don't exist, doesn't make us go away. And if companies continue to design things in their own eye happy way, in another twenty or thirty years it's probably unlikely we'd be able to use anything
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:54 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I will agree with damien's point about access. it is true that even a pc with the best screen reader is not of the same level of access, ie, effortlessness as a sighted user would experience. for example, I am right now checking my mails. I have to look at (ie listen to supernova tell me), the title, subject, sender etc of each as I arrow through them, deleting some, replying to others etc. A sighted user could skim read all the mails on a page in a short space, and delete spam or unnecessary mail very much more quickly using the mouse, simply by virute of the screen overview. So, access technology is not currently, even on the best system the equal of what a sighted person does, and I expect the Iphone is in the same catagory. That being said, unfortunately there isn't a choice. As said with the windows 7 debate, microsoft are going for inconvenient, flashy interfaces with no way of changing their look or feel, simply because they are motivated only by the acquisition of prophit and nothing else, however, failing a massive change in world policy there's not much we can do about this, other than try what workarounds are! available and try to promote more access. i'm in fact quite amazed any sort of screen reading exists for touch screens at all, since I would've expected the same response as I myself got when requesting more accessible menue updates for the Wii from Nintendo, there aren't enough visually impared people to make us money developing it! So, all we can do is live with the workarounds, try and promote access, and get what good use we can out of what is there. That's why I myself will be getting an Ipad or Iphone hopefully in the near future. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I have never been around so much negativity Don't appreciate what one has Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Give it time on those touch screens. Those fat companies are not yet squeezing us for are money yet. Now when they release win8 watch them all come out of there shells with all kinds of touch devices. At 07:27 AM 4/22/2012, you wrote: I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there is a cost saving in not having to build a keyboard for a computer. In fact, I'm not surprised we're not seeing more monitors with the ability to handle touch-screen commands. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:18 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Karl, I've heard a lot of good things about it, hence the reason I thought I'd give it a go. But as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a strenuous tedious ballache. It took me over five minutes to dial a phone number, and I didn't even know how to access anything on it, so I dread to think what I'd be like with gaming. It just seemed like a total waste of time and money. And that's why now I wouldn't touch a touch screen device with a bargepole. As for Nokia now choosing Windows, that actually seems better, since there's a whole lot of games already out for Windows. Don't know how accessible it'll be, I suppose it depends how good current screenreaders support it. Though again if it's anything like or complex than Vista, I think I'll give it a miss. Probably just use it for phone calls and gaming. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Tom. Well as I've said, my own mental mapping and spacial location skills are not really up to much, so I'm not sure how a touch screen will work for me. That being said, I probably would be fine if there is some sort of auditory marker, since then, instead of attempting a complete mental map of everything on the pad, I can simply remember right of item x which is indeed how I do all my mental mapping exercizes, by relations to existing objects rather than by attempting some sort of overview, whether that's in an fps game, a mobility route, on stage or whatever else. that's why I'm hoping I'll find a touch screen workable despite my lack of space, since there's lots of interesting stuff on Ios to do at the moment. For pcs though, we'll see. As I said in another message, i think keyboards will always be necessary for reasons of typing and word processing, and thus keyboard navigation. i know microsoft got into severe trouble over the ribbons in windows 7, so I'm hoping that windows 8 will at least be a little more logical, though the annoying trend of womping as much information into as smaller space as possible so that sighted people can get a skim overview is one I'm less fond of. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, Yeah, touchscreens can be nice once you get use to them. I didn't find them as difficult as I thought they'd be, but there apparently not for everybody. Like everything else in life it all depends on how much effort, time, and energy you are willing to commit to learning the new interface. The best way I can describe it is cane travel verses a dog guide. With cane travel a blind person uses his/her cane to stay in contact with the world around them such as the tree lawn, walls, staircases, parked cars, etc. With a guide dog the dog avoids polls, trash bins, parked cars, and just about everything a blind cane traveler is taught to use as landmarks. The difference between a keyboard and touchscreen is similar. With a keyboard or keypad there are buttons and keys in the same place that a blind person can use to orient himself or herself with. With a touchscreen it is a flat plastic surface with no physical landmarks to orient the blind user. Instead a blind user must use his/her memory and mental image of the screen layout to point at a specific area of the screen and tap the correct icon, menu option, etc. On the iPhone, at least, it helps that you get some verbal feedback as to what you are doing. This is nothing more than a hunch but I'm guessing people who are having trouble with touchscreens have a very poor sense of spacial orientation. They have difficulty visualizing the locations of things on the screen and aren't sure where to put their fingers to activate a certain icon etc. They are easily confused by the user interface because they are unable to form a mental image of the screen and how it is laid out for the sighted user. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:55 PM, dark wrote: I must admit I'm planning on an Iphone myself when my laptop busts, since these days I just need something portable, and there are more and more really awsom sounding games for it. I understand there will be a learning curve, but actually I will probably use games to help me with that, for instance playing text games to learn about screen navigation, the same way that playing online web games got me familiar with site navigation. Of course, I've not tried one yet, so I might be jumping to conclusions, but from the sound of it touch screens are the way to go, and I'm intreagued by the idea of one that works with screen reading. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Charles, Well, what I envision is that the new Windows 8 laptops I've been hearing about will have both a touchscreen and keyboard. The touchscreen will in effect act like a mouse allowing the user to point to and tap on icons, buttons, and other controls instead of pointing and clicking with a mouse. The keyboard will be available for basic typing since touchscreens are not up to typing a book, a report, or filling in large amounts of information on a form, etc. So you will see a bridging of the best of both worlds. On 4/22/2012 8:43 AM, Charles Rivard wrote: I can't imagine laptops going to touch screens, as this would just about kill the touch typing method for blind people. I would certainly hope that there would be a way to connect an external keyboard? A touch screen laptop, unless it works as the iPhone does, would be extremely difficult for us to use. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Michael, i very much resent that statement that my post was feeling sorry for anyone. I was actually attempting to highlight exactly what you just said, blindness is a disability, and as such has inherent problems with access especially when considdering corporate motivation. This is however not something we can do anything about other than attempting to, --- -as I said, use what devices are there to the best of our ability and promote access. My position is one of realism, not of feeling sorry for anyone, indeed as someone who is currently doing research into the matter of disability and what precisely accessibility or assistance should mean, and making recommendations for improvements in those areas, i don't think I've ever felt sorry at all. In fact, that is part of my deffinition, that disability is a condition that every human will undergo to a greater or lesser extent at some point. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, Well, that is where VoiceOver comes in handy. As Charles said if you just touch an area of the screen VoiceOver will speak what you are pointing at and iOS won't activate the item unless you double tap or triple tap the item in question. This allows us to explore the touchscreen without accidentally activating everything as we explore the screen and the layout. So there is verbal feedback as to what we are doing. I guess in that sense there is auditory markers. On 4/22/2012 9:34 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. Well as I've said, my own mental mapping and spacial location skills are not really up to much, so I'm not sure how a touch screen will work for me. That being said, I probably would be fine if there is some sort of auditory marker, since then, instead of attempting a complete mental map of everything on the pad, I can simply remember right of item x which is indeed how I do all my mental mapping exercizes, by relations to existing objects rather than by attempting some sort of overview, whether that's in an fps game, a mobility route, on stage or whatever else. that's why I'm hoping I'll find a touch screen workable despite my lack of space, since there's lots of interesting stuff on Ios to do at the moment. For pcs though, we'll see. As I said in another message, i think keyboards will always be necessary for reasons of typing and word processing, and thus keyboard navigation. i know microsoft got into severe trouble over the ribbons in windows 7, so I'm hoping that windows 8 will at least be a little more logical, though the annoying trend of womping as much information into as smaller space as possible so that sighted people can get a skim overview is one I'm less fond of. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Trouble, I've got an open mind for a lot of things. I just get sick and tired of feeling so small every time I don't know how to do something, or know how to do it but can't quite do it well enough for it to work. And if everybody else can do it, then that really shows me where I stand in the social circle. I know, call me a perfectionist. I admit it myself. I just haven't got patience for making mistakes, if those mistakes are likely to slow me down. It embarrasses me. That's why I no longer perform music. I much prefer composition since there is room for mistakes in that, because you can turn the mistake into a musical transition or make it sound nicer than it otherwise would have been. The same with a game. I often find that if a bug gets reported, if I can't outright fix it, then I'll try and turn it into something that is part of the game. But even then, programming is supposed to be hard, whereas simply using a device isn't supposed to be. Regards, Damien. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks You better hang on to that phone as long as you can, because even support for the new nokias are going. Even the new nokia is moving to touch. Everyone can learn new things in time, but it takes a open mind to want to learn it. At 05:06 PM 4/21/2012, you wrote: Hi Brian, What I'm trying to say is, the very nature of a touch screen device makes it seem rather inaccessible, no matter how many attempts and tweaks you make at it. It'd be like giving a computer user a mouse, a screenreader, but no keyboard. The fact is, blind people cannot see the screen, so it would take them way longer than should be necessary to access things that could be accessed in seconds. As for the button-style cases, again. Good plan, if it weren't for the fact that the screen was constantly changing, and therefore you're still tapping, or pressing, for longer than necessary, trying to find what you need. There are only two buttons on a Simbian based Nokia at least, that change on a regular basis. Those are your two soft keys, and talks always announces them to you before you even press them. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I'd say that the fact that Apple attempted to develop a way to make touch screens accessible is a big score in their favor, not an attempt to con the law. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Now, if the touch screen, as a mouse replacement, operates like an iPhone in that touching highlights, dragging can be done with fingers, and a gesture of some kind activates the highlighted icon, wouldn't we have the best of both worlds, as long as icons can verbally be identified! --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Charles, Well, what I envision is that the new Windows 8 laptops I've been hearing about will have both a touchscreen and keyboard. The touchscreen will in effect act like a mouse allowing the user to point to and tap on icons, buttons, and other controls instead of pointing and clicking with a mouse. The keyboard will be available for basic typing since touchscreens are not up to typing a book, a report, or filling in large amounts of information on a form, etc. So you will see a bridging of the best of both worlds. On 4/22/2012 8:43 AM, Charles Rivard wrote: I can't imagine laptops going to touch screens, as this would just about kill the touch typing method for blind people. I would certainly hope that there would be a way to connect an external keyboard? A touch screen laptop, unless it works as the iPhone does, would be extremely difficult for us to use. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Charles, My speed didn't change in two weeks of constantly trying to use it. That's the only phone I had during that period, and I tend to make a lot of calls, send a lot of text, and that's not including trying to find all the cool games that are out there for it. So you could probably say I spent a good five to six hours a day trying to use it. Needless to say my battery was flat about once every 36 hours. I could've kept on with it, but what would have happened if I'd have taken the contract using that phone and still not sussed it in three to four months? I'd have pretty much had no phone at all. And that's why I got even more frustrated than I normally would have, since I knew I was on a time limit. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks You're missing one of the points, though. You say that you shouldn't have to spend 5 minutes doing what should take seconds, but, what you're not realizing is that, with practice and familiarity with the device, your speed and accuracy increases, cutting down the time. Although you may not be able to keep up with sighted people when texting and other applications, you can get proficient enough with the device so that it isn't all that time consuming. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Michael: Your reply shows me that you're not reading what's being said, or you replied to the wrong post. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I have never been around so much negativity Don't appreciate what one has Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:32 AM, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Give it time on those touch screens. Those fat companies are not yet squeezing us for are money yet. Now when they release win8 watch them all come out of there shells with all kinds of touch devices. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Give it time on those touch screens. Those fat companies are not yet squeezing us for are money yet. Now when they release win8 watch them all come out of there shells with all kinds of touch devices. At 07:27 AM 4/22/2012, you wrote: I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but there is a cost saving in not having to build a keyboard for a computer. In fact, I'm not surprised we're not seeing more monitors with the ability to handle touch-screen commands. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:18 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Karl, I've heard a lot of good things about it, hence the reason I thought I'd give it a go. But as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a strenuous tedious ballache. It took me over five minutes to dial a phone number, and I didn't even know how to access anything on it, so I dread to think what I'd be like with gaming. It just seemed like a total waste of time and money. And that's why now I wouldn't touch a touch screen device with a bargepole. As for Nokia now choosing Windows, that actually seems better, since there's a whole lot of games already out for Windows. Don't know how accessible it'll be, I suppose it depends how good current screenreaders support it. Though again if it's anything like or complex than Vista, I think I'll give it a miss. Probably just use it for phone calls and gaming. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Mike, There are some things we need to complain about. I'm the sort of person who won't take things lying down. If I'm not happy with something then I will say it. A lot of people can just grin and bear it, but to me it's that sort of attitude that continues to prove to big arrogant snobbish money grabbers that blind people don't care either way. For example, there's a lot of products that don't have any accessibility features on at all that I have also rang the manufacturers and complained about. It's funny how I'm apparently, quite often, the only one who has mentioned it. A lot of sighted people even admit they don't think of blind people because they don't come across us on a day-to-day basis. Whether they come across us or not, they still know blindness exists, therefore they must know that blind people exist. So why not think of them in some way, even if it's to talk to the company they work for about making some changes that could help their blind customer base, so to speak? To me that's awful. I think we should make a lot more of a stand to turn the world around at least partially rather than taking the sighted person's side all the time. OK. So they've put screenreaders in the IPhone. Good start. But not everyone can handle touch screens, and that's not just blind people. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:54 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I will agree with damien's point about access. it is true that even a pc with the best screen reader is not of the same level of access, ie, effortlessness as a sighted user would experience. for example, I am right now checking my mails. I have to look at (ie listen to supernova tell me), the title, subject, sender etc of each as I arrow through them, deleting some, replying to others etc. A sighted user could skim read all the mails on a page in a short space, and delete spam or unnecessary mail very much more quickly using the mouse, simply by virute of the screen overview. So, access technology is not currently, even on the best system the equal of what a sighted person does, and I expect the Iphone is in the same catagory. That being said, unfortunately there isn't a choice. As said with the windows 7 debate, microsoft are going for inconvenient, flashy interfaces with no way of changing their look or feel, simply because they are motivated only by the acquisition of prophit and nothing else, however, failing a massive change in world policy there's not much we can do about this, other than try what workarounds are! available and try to promote more access. i'm in fact quite amazed any sort of screen reading exists for touch screens at all, since I would've expected the same response as I myself got when requesting more accessible menue updates for the Wii from Nintendo, there aren't enough visually impared people to make us money developing it! So, all we can do is live with the workarounds, try and promote access, and get what good use we can out of what is there. That's why I myself will be getting an Ipad or Iphone hopefully in the near future. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Tom. This was as I thought. interestingly enough, the school where my summer music school takes place have completely flat touchpads on the security locks of the doors. They just require a four digit number to get in, but annoyingly the numbers have no indication at all, however we found that if I stuck a bumpon, or a piece of bluetack just on the 5 key, i could find all the other numbers on the key pad fine. This is what I meant by auditory markers, something akin to that mark on the five key to tell me where on the screen my finger is and what is around it, and as you've just confirmed that's how voice over works, and why I believe I'll hopefully be able to get the trick of it with some practice. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I agree charles, then access would be more equal, and maybe even windows 8 with it's columns of doom wouldn't be so bad. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Now, if the touch screen, as a mouse replacement, operates like an iPhone in that touching highlights, dragging can be done with fingers, and a gesture of some kind activates the highlighted icon, wouldn't we have the best of both worlds, as long as icons can verbally be identified! --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Charles, Well, what I envision is that the new Windows 8 laptops I've been hearing about will have both a touchscreen and keyboard. The touchscreen will in effect act like a mouse allowing the user to point to and tap on icons, buttons, and other controls instead of pointing and clicking with a mouse. The keyboard will be available for basic typing since touchscreens are not up to typing a book, a report, or filling in large amounts of information on a form, etc. So you will see a bridging of the best of both worlds. On 4/22/2012 8:43 AM, Charles Rivard wrote: I can't imagine laptops going to touch screens, as this would just about kill the touch typing method for blind people. I would certainly hope that there would be a way to connect an external keyboard? A touch screen laptop, unless it works as the iPhone does, would be extremely difficult for us to use. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, Hmmm...I'm not sure what I can say in your case. It just seems to me that we as blind users have little choice in the matter. A lot of the smart phones my wife and I have looked at are all touchscreen, and those that have keypads aren't much easier to use because the buttons are way too small or they are so flat that they are hard to feel one from another. For me learning to use an iPhone was making the best out of a bad situation as other touchscreen phones like the Droid phone are less accessible unless you sit down and have someone sighted set everything up for you, and that doesn't even count the $60 or so for the screen reader for Droid OS to boot. So for me at least the iPhone seems to be the best deal we are going to get in terms of a smart phone. Not only that, but as I've said in prior posts its not just smart phones. Just this year I have beta tested a lot of software with drastic U.I. changes designed for a touchscreen device. Windows 8, which I'm running in a virtual machine, is completely different from anything else I've ever used. Its got its accessibility challenges, but no matter how much we scream, cry, and wine I'm pretty certain Microsoft won't change the user interface. We'll have to deal with it in whatever way we can. Same goes for Linux as well. Ubuntu Linux, which I've used for about six years, has recently switched over to a new graphical user interface called Unity. It has introduced a number of accessibility issues/challenges which are being fixed, but when I recommended that the Ubuntu developers wait to introduce Unity once the accessibility issues were fixed I got a resounding no. They explained that its all part of their new marketing strategy to target PCs, smart phones, tablet PCs, etc and they want a user interface suited for touchscreen devices etc. Basically, accessibility takes a backseat to the bottom line. About the only good thing I can say is the Ubuntu developers have worked closely with the blind community to fix bugs and improve the accessibility of the Unity desktop environment in Ubuntu 12.04. Which comes right back to making the most of an undesirable situation. Cheers! On 4/22/2012 7:20 AM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
If your main concern is doing it fast rather than doing it right, you won't get anywhere. I wish corporations and big business would also learn that. First, let's get it right. We'll worry about getting it fast once we've gotten it right on a regular basis. With the iPhone, I don't care if it takes me a minute to do what sighted people do in 10 seconds. I'll get it done, and it'll be done right. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Trouble, I've got an open mind for a lot of things. I just get sick and tired of feeling so small every time I don't know how to do something, or know how to do it but can't quite do it well enough for it to work. And if everybody else can do it, then that really shows me where I stand in the social circle. I know, call me a perfectionist. I admit it myself. I just haven't got patience for making mistakes, if those mistakes are likely to slow me down. It embarrasses me. That's why I no longer perform music. I much prefer composition since there is room for mistakes in that, because you can turn the mistake into a musical transition or make it sound nicer than it otherwise would have been. The same with a game. I often find that if a bug gets reported, if I can't outright fix it, then I'll try and turn it into something that is part of the game. But even then, programming is supposed to be hard, whereas simply using a device isn't supposed to be. Regards, Damien. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks You better hang on to that phone as long as you can, because even support for the new nokias are going. Even the new nokia is moving to touch. Everyone can learn new things in time, but it takes a open mind to want to learn it. At 05:06 PM 4/21/2012, you wrote: Hi Brian, What I'm trying to say is, the very nature of a touch screen device makes it seem rather inaccessible, no matter how many attempts and tweaks you make at it. It'd be like giving a computer user a mouse, a screenreader, but no keyboard. The fact is, blind people cannot see the screen, so it would take them way longer than should be necessary to access things that could be accessed in seconds. As for the button-style cases, again. Good plan, if it weren't for the fact that the screen was constantly changing, and therefore you're still tapping, or pressing, for longer than necessary, trying to find what you need. There are only two buttons on a Simbian based Nokia at least, that change on a regular basis. Those are your two soft keys, and talks always announces them to you before you even press them. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I'd say that the fact that Apple attempted to develop a way to make touch screens accessible is a big score in their favor, not an attempt to con the law. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Using iTunes, do a search for de steno games HTH --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I would like to play that pack of old games. Could you please give me the information for downloading the pack? Thanks. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of michael barnes Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:55 PM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hey, Damien. One of the nice thing about the iPhone is that alot of old games are being ported over to the mobile platform. For exsample the old DOS games by Richard De Steno, have been put in a game pack and now people can play those games with all the classic sounds and gameplay. The iPhone has been a big help to me since I have had mine since 2010. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/20/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, Well, I do see how that can and is a problem for you. In a game such as Tank Commander you can't just remember directions. You have to improvise as the tactical situation changes. Knowing where everything is in relation to you will help in making choices how to avoid an attack or plan a attack. The same sort of skills are helpful when using an iPhone. With something like an iPhone it is helpful to know where a certain button is in relation to the one you are pointing at. Visualizing, as it were, the layout helps me keep track of if a button I want is up, down,, left, or right of where my finger is pointing. I try to keep that mental image or layout in my mind as I move around as its the only way I keep track of where I am at, what I'm doing, and can dial a phone number fairly quickly on a touchscreen after some practice and memorization. What it comes down to is that spacial orientation is a skill like any other. Some people have it others don't. I know plenty of people who can't spell and they are sighted. I know more people who can't do fractions or figure out how to solve basic algebra problems let alone trig or geometry. That doesn't mean those people are dumb, but for whatever reason they aren't mentally equipped to retain that skill in memory. To return to an analogy I used earlier you are like the cane traveler who must be in constant contact with land marks like trash cans, lamp, polls, tree lawn, etc in order to get around. Those who use touchscreens are like guide dog users who don't need constant physical contact with the environment and are alright if the dog avoids trash cans, lamp polls, parked cars, etc because we use our other senses like smell and hearing to give us clues to where we are. Cheers! On 4/22/2012 7:26 AM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Thomas, I think you've hit the nail on the head with me. I've never been sighted and therefore never been able to really visualise things. It's like even in the real world, I constantly find myself wondering why cars and pedestrians don't bother going straight forwards rather than sideways, only to be told, They are going forwards. This is also significant in a gaming context, I think this is why I struggle with games such as Shades of Doom. To be able to at least think that I could play GMA Tank Commander, I had to listen to someone else play it and then memorise all the directions, but I couldn't visualise the world. Plus, as I said in a previous post, my fingers are constantly in the way so I can never quite perform the correct action to get it to do what I want, and that is so frustrating. The amount of times I wanted to chuck my stupid IPhone out the window was more than I could count. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, Lol! I like the name columns of doom. Although, I wouldn't go quite that far. The new Windows 8 start screen is a pain to be sure, but it is usable. If I hunt around using NVDA I can usually find the icon I want once I remember where it is on the screen. Plus rather than manually searching for it I can just type the name of the program into the search field and it will bring up a list of matching icons, files, and folders into a standard list so its manageable if a little less accessible than before. On 4/22/2012 11:21 AM, dark wrote: I agree charles, then access would be more equal, and maybe even windows 8 with it's columns of doom wouldn't be so bad. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Charles, I hope so. Although, at the moment none of the Windows screen readers seem to follow the user input from the touchscreen. Hopefully future updates will allow screen readers to track touchscreen input and will speak the contents of the screen like VoiceOver and then we would have the best of both worlds for sure. On 4/22/2012 10:26 AM, Charles Rivard wrote: Now, if the touch screen, as a mouse replacement, operates like an iPhone in that touching highlights, dragging can be done with fingers, and a gesture of some kind activates the highlighted icon, wouldn't we have the best of both worlds, as long as icons can verbally be identified! --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
You did the right thing You gave up Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 9:25 AM, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Charles, My speed didn't change in two weeks of constantly trying to use it. That's the only phone I had during that period, and I tend to make a lot of calls, send a lot of text, and that's not including trying to find all the cool games that are out there for it. So you could probably say I spent a good five to six hours a day trying to use it. Needless to say my battery was flat about once every 36 hours. I could've kept on with it, but what would have happened if I'd have taken the contract using that phone and still not sussed it in three to four months? I'd have pretty much had no phone at all. And that's why I got even more frustrated than I normally would have, since I knew I was on a time limit. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks You're missing one of the points, though. You say that you shouldn't have to spend 5 minutes doing what should take seconds, but, what you're not realizing is that, with practice and familiarity with the device, your speed and accuracy increases, cutting down the time. Although you may not be able to keep up with sighted people when texting and other applications, you can get proficient enough with the device so that it isn't all that time consuming. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Don't agree This is why the sighted community thinks what they do of us Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Mike, There are some things we need to complain about. I'm the sort of person who won't take things lying down. If I'm not happy with something then I will say it. A lot of people can just grin and bear it, but to me it's that sort of attitude that continues to prove to big arrogant snobbish money grabbers that blind people don't care either way. For example, there's a lot of products that don't have any accessibility features on at all that I have also rang the manufacturers and complained about. It's funny how I'm apparently, quite often, the only one who has mentioned it. A lot of sighted people even admit they don't think of blind people because they don't come across us on a day-to-day basis. Whether they come across us or not, they still know blindness exists, therefore they must know that blind people exist. So why not think of them in some way, even if it's to talk to the company they work for about making some changes that could help their blind customer base, so to speak? To me that's awful. I think we should make a lot more of a stand to turn the world around at least partially rather than taking the sighted person's side all the time. OK. So they've put screenreaders in the IPhone. Good start. But not everyone can handle touch screens, and that's not just blind people. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:54 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I will agree with damien's point about access. it is true that even a pc with the best screen reader is not of the same level of access, ie, effortlessness as a sighted user would experience. for example, I am right now checking my mails. I have to look at (ie listen to supernova tell me), the title, subject, sender etc of each as I arrow through them, deleting some, replying to others etc. A sighted user could skim read all the mails on a page in a short space, and delete spam or unnecessary mail very much more quickly using the mouse, simply by virute of the screen overview. So, access technology is not currently, even on the best system the equal of what a sighted person does, and I expect the Iphone is in the same catagory. That being said, unfortunately there isn't a choice. As said with the windows 7 debate, microsoft are going for inconvenient, flashy interfaces with no way of changing their look or feel, simply because they are motivated only by the acquisition of prophit and nothing else, however, failing a massive change in world policy there's not much we can do about this, other than try what workarounds are! available and try to promote more access. i'm in fact quite amazed any sort of screen reading exists for touch screens at all, since I would've expected the same response as I myself got when requesting more accessible menue updates for the Wii from Nintendo, there aren't enough visually impared people to make us money developing it! So, all we can do is live with the workarounds, try and promote access, and get what good use we can out of what is there. That's why I myself will be getting an Ipad or Iphone hopefully in the near future. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Several years ago, I asked a Freedom Scientific tech about getting the JAWS or PC cursor to follow a mouse pointer and was told that because there are so many different shapes, colors, and sizes of mouse pointers, it would cost half a million dollars to implement the feature into the screen reader. Again, this was several years ago. I didn't believe it then, and don't now. However, the touch screen cursor might be similar to a mouse pointer? --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Charles, I hope so. Although, at the moment none of the Windows screen readers seem to follow the user input from the touchscreen. Hopefully future updates will allow screen readers to track touchscreen input and will speak the contents of the screen like VoiceOver and then we would have the best of both worlds for sure. On 4/22/2012 10:26 AM, Charles Rivard wrote: Now, if the touch screen, as a mouse replacement, operates like an iPhone in that touching highlights, dragging can be done with fingers, and a gesture of some kind activates the highlighted icon, wouldn't we have the best of both worlds, as long as icons can verbally be identified! --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Charles, You must have a lot of patience and a lot of self confidence. I, I'm sorry to say, don't tend to have much of either. Again, it all comes down to people having such high expectations of me previously and with me getting so many things wrong that most other people can get right, whether it be slow or fast. I've also grown to have high expectations of me, and if I can't meet them then I tend to hate the challenge and berate myself for the rest of my days, and that is why I'm so often a lot more frustrated with things. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks If your main concern is doing it fast rather than doing it right, you won't get anywhere. I wish corporations and big business would also learn that. First, let's get it right. We'll worry about getting it fast once we've gotten it right on a regular basis. With the iPhone, I don't care if it takes me a minute to do what sighted people do in 10 seconds. I'll get it done, and it'll be done right. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Trouble, I've got an open mind for a lot of things. I just get sick and tired of feeling so small every time I don't know how to do something, or know how to do it but can't quite do it well enough for it to work. And if everybody else can do it, then that really shows me where I stand in the social circle. I know, call me a perfectionist. I admit it myself. I just haven't got patience for making mistakes, if those mistakes are likely to slow me down. It embarrasses me. That's why I no longer perform music. I much prefer composition since there is room for mistakes in that, because you can turn the mistake into a musical transition or make it sound nicer than it otherwise would have been. The same with a game. I often find that if a bug gets reported, if I can't outright fix it, then I'll try and turn it into something that is part of the game. But even then, programming is supposed to be hard, whereas simply using a device isn't supposed to be. Regards, Damien. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks You better hang on to that phone as long as you can, because even support for the new nokias are going. Even the new nokia is moving to touch. Everyone can learn new things in time, but it takes a open mind to want to learn it. At 05:06 PM 4/21/2012, you wrote: Hi Brian, What I'm trying to say is, the very nature of a touch screen device makes it seem rather inaccessible, no matter how many attempts and tweaks you make at it. It'd be like giving a computer user a mouse, a screenreader, but no keyboard. The fact is, blind people cannot see the screen, so it would take them way longer than should be necessary to access things that could be accessed in seconds. As for the button-style cases, again. Good plan, if it weren't for the fact that the screen was constantly changing, and therefore you're still tapping, or pressing, for longer than necessary, trying to find what you need. There are only two buttons on a Simbian based Nokia at least, that change on a regular basis. Those are your two soft keys, and talks always announces them to you before you even press them. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I'd say that the fact that Apple attempted to develop a way to make touch screens accessible is a big score in their favor, not an attempt to con the law. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Tom. I disagree on visualization or spacial awareness, since that is a skill i just do not have. This is why I find a game like battleships, patience/solitare, mine sweeper, chess, or even draughts/checkers nearly impossible to play unless the board is in front of me in either a visual or tactile form for me to get that sort of overview, since I just cannot maintain the memory of where each object is after the audio view of it has moved on. That being said, i do find gma tank commander and shades of doom possible, but my mental way of playing is probably different from other peoples, since instead of attempting to build up a larger, mental map of the entire location, I simply work by memorizing the relations betwene landmarks, and the directions provided by the coordinates system. For example, I know in the first level of shades of doom, that you follow the corridors until you get to the end of one with two doors, one leading to a radio room, the other up a corridor to the fan room. once in the fan room, you can go left into another passage then right into another large room, with a door leading to a passage going out of it to the left, and in that passage is the false wall where the message is (and usually a monster with a gun). I have no practical idea where that room is in comparison to the rest of the stage at all, but by memorizing the landmarks and directions I know just where to find it with respect to the rest of the stage. I actually believe it was playing massive, exploration games like Turrican and Metroid that really improved my memory skills for landmarks, since there I'd often have to spend a fair amount of time wandering around an area looking for a specific configuration of ledges or a specific landmark that I know leads to where I'm going, and this skill in fact has stood me in very good stead. For example, last weekend I was in brightan at the mini aims music school and auditions, and since I know I'll be back there perminantly I determined to learn the 10 minute or so walk from my hotel to the music school. I have no idea where practically in directional terms this went, but I know it's right, streight on, through a style, cross one road, walk until i find the grass verge, cross again, right, then up a very long road to a white wall, cross on the right, streight on up to a main road, follow the railings right again, and left to the entrance. My parents were staying with me at the time (they wanted a holiday), and it just took one run there and back with them for reever and I to get the route, and in fact having a dog really help with that since I could concentrate upon my land marks instead of worrying about what rubbish people stuck on the pavement (indeed, she remembered it as well if not better than I did). So the point of all this is that mental overview of space is actually unnecessary if you are sufficiently used to working with an alternative set of skills. I'm always frankly amazed at the mental mapping skills some blind people have, - I just realized it's not something my mind will do, indeed there is probably a physiological explanation for this, since when i was born I apparently suffered mild brain damage, and though we can't determine anything wrong with other mental areas, my spacial perception really isn't what it should be. Fortunately, my memory is more than up to the task. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Mike, Yeah? Well if that's the case then that's where the discrimination comes in. They don't like us because we don't act sighted? We don't pretend to have something they have so they see us as abnormal circus clowns or something? Well then that's even all the more reason to complain. The more things like this I'm hearing, the more and more I wish sighted people could be blind, even if it were for a week. I usually don't wish ill on anyone, but I'd love some of these top dogs to try and use their gear with no sight. Then maybe they'll think twice as to why we should be complaining, rather than more or less telling us to to run up a lamp post when we ask for something to be made accessible. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Cc: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Don't agree This is why the sighted community thinks what they do of us Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Mike, There are some things we need to complain about. I'm the sort of person who won't take things lying down. If I'm not happy with something then I will say it. A lot of people can just grin and bear it, but to me it's that sort of attitude that continues to prove to big arrogant snobbish money grabbers that blind people don't care either way. For example, there's a lot of products that don't have any accessibility features on at all that I have also rang the manufacturers and complained about. It's funny how I'm apparently, quite often, the only one who has mentioned it. A lot of sighted people even admit they don't think of blind people because they don't come across us on a day-to-day basis. Whether they come across us or not, they still know blindness exists, therefore they must know that blind people exist. So why not think of them in some way, even if it's to talk to the company they work for about making some changes that could help their blind customer base, so to speak? To me that's awful. I think we should make a lot more of a stand to turn the world around at least partially rather than taking the sighted person's side all the time. OK. So they've put screenreaders in the IPhone. Good start. But not everyone can handle touch screens, and that's not just blind people. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:54 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I will agree with damien's point about access. it is true that even a pc with the best screen reader is not of the same level of access, ie, effortlessness as a sighted user would experience. for example, I am right now checking my mails. I have to look at (ie listen to supernova tell me), the title, subject, sender etc of each as I arrow through them, deleting some, replying to others etc. A sighted user could skim read all the mails on a page in a short space, and delete spam or unnecessary mail very much more quickly using the mouse, simply by virute of the screen overview. So, access technology is not currently, even on the best system the equal of what a sighted person does, and I expect the Iphone is in the same catagory. That being said, unfortunately there isn't a choice. As said with the windows 7 debate, microsoft are going for inconvenient, flashy interfaces with no way of changing their look or feel, simply because they are motivated only by the acquisition of prophit and nothing else, however, failing a massive change in world policy there's not much we can do about this, other than try what workarounds are! available and try to promote more access. i'm in fact quite amazed any sort of screen reading exists for touch screens at all, since I would've expected the same response as I myself got when requesting more accessible menue updates for the Wii from Nintendo, there aren't enough visually impared people to make us money developing it! So, all we can do is live with the workarounds, try and promote access, and get what good use we can out of what is there. That's why I myself will be getting an Ipad or Iphone hopefully in the near future. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Tom. as I have said before, I could probably learn to live with the search box, but I just like the pleasure and convenience of organizing stuff myself, just as I might books or dvds on a shelf, which is why I think for me the columnbs with a touch screen would actually be preferable to using the search box, hopefully by the time I need to worry about windows 8 there will be good accessible solutions, indeed if touch screen navigation, and other aplications become common on the pcthere might even be some reasonable justification for upgrading to windows 8 that imho there wasn't from xp to 7 as I said in our previous discussion, it'll all depend upon what happens in the next few years I suppose, - though I will say I'd be very sorry to give up my 40 inch flat screen tv that I currently have my pc (which is also my dvd player), gamecube and Snes plugged into, for low vision access to games it's amazingly clear and also larger than any tv I've had before. Though hopefully if the touch screen thing does come into practice, there will be a sensor similar to the one for the wiimote that could be used instead of a specially adapted screen. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, You sound a bit like me, though even that long list of directions to your school you posted I wouldn't be able to remember all that in a matter of months. It was a similarly short route if not shorter to the bus stop and I couldn't remember that for the life of me. It doesn't help that I'm not good with association either, so I can't exactly associate, say a bench to the fact that there'll be a road in 30 seconds, so I always end up getting lost anyway. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Tom. I disagree on visualization or spacial awareness, since that is a skill i just do not have. This is why I find a game like battleships, patience/solitare, mine sweeper, chess, or even draughts/checkers nearly impossible to play unless the board is in front of me in either a visual or tactile form for me to get that sort of overview, since I just cannot maintain the memory of where each object is after the audio view of it has moved on. That being said, i do find gma tank commander and shades of doom possible, but my mental way of playing is probably different from other peoples, since instead of attempting to build up a larger, mental map of the entire location, I simply work by memorizing the relations betwene landmarks, and the directions provided by the coordinates system. For example, I know in the first level of shades of doom, that you follow the corridors until you get to the end of one with two doors, one leading to a radio room, the other up a corridor to the fan room. once in the fan room, you can go left into another passage then right into another large room, with a door leading to a passage going out of it to the left, and in that passage is the false wall where the message is (and usually a monster with a gun). I have no practical idea where that room is in comparison to the rest of the stage at all, but by memorizing the landmarks and directions I know just where to find it with respect to the rest of the stage. I actually believe it was playing massive, exploration games like Turrican and Metroid that really improved my memory skills for landmarks, since there I'd often have to spend a fair amount of time wandering around an area looking for a specific configuration of ledges or a specific landmark that I know leads to where I'm going, and this skill in fact has stood me in very good stead. For example, last weekend I was in brightan at the mini aims music school and auditions, and since I know I'll be back there perminantly I determined to learn the 10 minute or so walk from my hotel to the music school. I have no idea where practically in directional terms this went, but I know it's right, streight on, through a style, cross one road, walk until i find the grass verge, cross again, right, then up a very long road to a white wall, cross on the right, streight on up to a main road, follow the railings right again, and left to the entrance. My parents were staying with me at the time (they wanted a holiday), and it just took one run there and back with them for reever and I to get the route, and in fact having a dog really help with that since I could concentrate upon my land marks instead of worrying about what rubbish people stuck on the pavement (indeed, she remembered it as well if not better than I did). So the point of all this is that mental overview of space is actually unnecessary if you are sufficiently used to working with an alternative set of skills. I'm always frankly amazed at the mental mapping skills some blind people have, - I just realized it's not something my mind will do, indeed there is probably a physiological explanation for this, since when i was born I apparently suffered mild brain damage, and though we can't determine anything wrong with other mental areas, my spacial perception really isn't what it should be. Fortunately, my memory is more than up to the task. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
They don't like those who need every aspect of their life done for them Also the poor blind person is old and boring I work and have moved through the ranks through hard work and never believing that I can't do something Stereotypes are so hard to break For 100 who break that mold it takes one to re affirm it Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Mike, Yeah? Well if that's the case then that's where the discrimination comes in. They don't like us because we don't act sighted? We don't pretend to have something they have so they see us as abnormal circus clowns or something? Well then that's even all the more reason to complain. The more things like this I'm hearing, the more and more I wish sighted people could be blind, even if it were for a week. I usually don't wish ill on anyone, but I'd love some of these top dogs to try and use their gear with no sight. Then maybe they'll think twice as to why we should be complaining, rather than more or less telling us to to run up a lamp post when we ask for something to be made accessible. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Cc: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Don't agree This is why the sighted community thinks what they do of us Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Mike, There are some things we need to complain about. I'm the sort of person who won't take things lying down. If I'm not happy with something then I will say it. A lot of people can just grin and bear it, but to me it's that sort of attitude that continues to prove to big arrogant snobbish money grabbers that blind people don't care either way. For example, there's a lot of products that don't have any accessibility features on at all that I have also rang the manufacturers and complained about. It's funny how I'm apparently, quite often, the only one who has mentioned it. A lot of sighted people even admit they don't think of blind people because they don't come across us on a day-to-day basis. Whether they come across us or not, they still know blindness exists, therefore they must know that blind people exist. So why not think of them in some way, even if it's to talk to the company they work for about making some changes that could help their blind customer base, so to speak? To me that's awful. I think we should make a lot more of a stand to turn the world around at least partially rather than taking the sighted person's side all the time. OK. So they've put screenreaders in the IPhone. Good start. But not everyone can handle touch screens, and that's not just blind people. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:54 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I will agree with damien's point about access. it is true that even a pc with the best screen reader is not of the same level of access, ie, effortlessness as a sighted user would experience. for example, I am right now checking my mails. I have to look at (ie listen to supernova tell me), the title, subject, sender etc of each as I arrow through them, deleting some, replying to others etc. A sighted user could skim read all the mails on a page in a short space, and delete spam or unnecessary mail very much more quickly using the mouse, simply by virute of the screen overview. So, access technology is not currently, even on the best system the equal of what a sighted person does, and I expect the Iphone is in the same catagory. That being said, unfortunately there isn't a choice. As said with the windows 7 debate, microsoft are going for inconvenient, flashy interfaces with no way of changing their look or feel, simply because they are motivated only by the acquisition of prophit and nothing else, however, failing a massive change in world policy there's not much we can do about this, other than try what workarounds are! available and try to promote more access. i'm in fact quite amazed any sort of screen reading exists for touch screens at all, since I would've expected the same response as I myself got when requesting more accessible menue updates for the Wii from Nintendo, there aren't enough visually impared people to make us money developing it! So, all we can do
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien. it's not association, it's just memory. I don't remember say for instance gr first letters of grass so I go right, I just remember that on that particular route grass is where I turn right, that is it. Some landmarks I use are visual, like the low white wall, some are tactile like crossings, heck some are even smell, it's just a technique I've built up over several years. It actually used to really piss me off when mobility trainers used to try and force me to mental map, and asked me things like which direction are you going now heck, I don't know! indeed the best person for mobility was my mum since she is A, visually impared and B, quite totally aware of the way I do things. These days though, as happened when I went to egypt last year, i find I can pretty much select and learn my own landmarks just by following someone the first, and occasionally the second or third time. This helps hugely on stage, since I know if I need to be to the right of and slightly behind someone else, say the king, I can get there, without needing to worry about what else is on the stage or where. Like everything else though, this is all about practice and training, and there's really no way to improve at it other than try, try, try again! I'd actually suggest perhaps you could download a game like shades or terraformers, try it with this idea in mind and practice until you have the memorization of directions down, then maybe try a short journey, say a basic left right. Actually, this could be a very short example game, giving you random objects and associating them with three directions, and asking you to memorize simon style, say right train, left bench etc. I'd always say that whether it's music, getting around, cooking or just about anything else, the best asset a visually impared person has is their memory, - indeed I'm actually quite amazed sometimes when I find for instance that my friends, who are a long way from stupid, can't for instance remember a ten digit phone number without having to write it down. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, You sound a bit like me, though even that long list of directions to your school you posted I wouldn't be able to remember all that in a matter of months. It was a similarly short route if not shorter to the bus stop and I couldn't remember that for the life of me. It doesn't help that I'm not good with association either, so I can't exactly associate, say a bench to the fact that there'll be a road in 30 seconds, so I always end up getting lost anyway. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Tom. I disagree on visualization or spacial awareness, since that is a skill i just do not have. This is why I find a game like battleships, patience/solitare, mine sweeper, chess, or even draughts/checkers nearly impossible to play unless the board is in front of me in either a visual or tactile form for me to get that sort of overview, since I just cannot maintain the memory of where each object is after the audio view of it has moved on. That being said, i do find gma tank commander and shades of doom possible, but my mental way of playing is probably different from other peoples, since instead of attempting to build up a larger, mental map of the entire location, I simply work by memorizing the relations betwene landmarks, and the directions provided by the coordinates system. For example, I know in the first level of shades of doom, that you follow the corridors until you get to the end of one with two doors, one leading to a radio room, the other up a corridor to the fan room. once in the fan room, you can go left into another passage then right into another large room, with a door leading to a passage going out of it to the left, and in that passage is the false wall where the message is (and usually a monster with a gun). I have no practical idea where that room is in comparison to the rest of the stage at all, but by memorizing the landmarks and directions I know just where to find it with respect to the rest of the stage. I actually believe it was playing massive, exploration games like Turrican and Metroid that really improved my memory skills for landmarks, since there I'd often have to spend a fair amount of time wandering around an area looking for a specific configuration of ledges or a specific landmark that I know leads to where I'm going, and this skill in fact has stood me in very good stead. For example, last weekend I was in brightan at the mini aims music school and auditions, and since I know I'll be back
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, There are many ways to go to a location in a game, such as in my Sarah game. Coordinate method: From 11, 2,go to 11, 3. From 11, 3 go to 3, 3 from 3,3 go to 3,16 from 3, 16 go to 1, 16 to reach the caretaker's office. Compass method: Go north until you stop, turn west. Go west until you stop, and turn north. Go north until you hear a snoring door and stop. Turn west and go until you stop. to reach the caretaker's office. Distance method: Go forward ten feet and turn left. Go 50 feet and turn right. Go 40 feet and turn left. Go forward 10 feet and stop. to reach the caretaker's office. So there are several ways to get where you want to go. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Phil. That's one of the things I most like in the gma engine, there are a hole range of distance and informational commands, and each person can decide which ones they prefer. As I said, I myself use audio landmarks and directions, so would use the directional cumpas with a bit of help from coordinates, but I know other people are more in to counting steps etc. I'm sure Tom will also include this with his engine as well. i must confess the only audio fps game I've never had any luck with at all is Monkey business, precisely because! the object scanner, sonar and other navaids are so imprecise in that game. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, There are many ways to go to a location in a game, such as in my Sarah game. Coordinate method: From 11, 2,go to 11, 3. From 11, 3 go to 3, 3 from 3,3 go to 3,16 from 3, 16 go to 1, 16 to reach the caretaker's office. Compass method: Go north until you stop, turn west. Go west until you stop, and turn north. Go north until you hear a snoring door and stop. Turn west and go until you stop. to reach the caretaker's office. Distance method: Go forward ten feet and turn left. Go 50 feet and turn right. Go 40 feet and turn left. Go forward 10 feet and stop. to reach the caretaker's office. So there are several ways to get where you want to go. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Michael, Well lucky you. Just because you can doesn't mean anybody should expect everyone else to. Just because you seem to have a supercomputer for a brain and a nack for learning things and having the patience to fight what seems to others a losing battle, well all I can do is say well done. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks They don't like those who need every aspect of their life done for them Also the poor blind person is old and boring I work and have moved through the ranks through hard work and never believing that I can't do something Stereotypes are so hard to break For 100 who break that mold it takes one to re affirm it Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Mike, Yeah? Well if that's the case then that's where the discrimination comes in. They don't like us because we don't act sighted? We don't pretend to have something they have so they see us as abnormal circus clowns or something? Well then that's even all the more reason to complain. The more things like this I'm hearing, the more and more I wish sighted people could be blind, even if it were for a week. I usually don't wish ill on anyone, but I'd love some of these top dogs to try and use their gear with no sight. Then maybe they'll think twice as to why we should be complaining, rather than more or less telling us to to run up a lamp post when we ask for something to be made accessible. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Cc: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Don't agree This is why the sighted community thinks what they do of us Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 9:47 AM, Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com wrote: Hi Mike, There are some things we need to complain about. I'm the sort of person who won't take things lying down. If I'm not happy with something then I will say it. A lot of people can just grin and bear it, but to me it's that sort of attitude that continues to prove to big arrogant snobbish money grabbers that blind people don't care either way. For example, there's a lot of products that don't have any accessibility features on at all that I have also rang the manufacturers and complained about. It's funny how I'm apparently, quite often, the only one who has mentioned it. A lot of sighted people even admit they don't think of blind people because they don't come across us on a day-to-day basis. Whether they come across us or not, they still know blindness exists, therefore they must know that blind people exist. So why not think of them in some way, even if it's to talk to the company they work for about making some changes that could help their blind customer base, so to speak? To me that's awful. I think we should make a lot more of a stand to turn the world around at least partially rather than taking the sighted person's side all the time. OK. So they've put screenreaders in the IPhone. Good start. But not everyone can handle touch screens, and that's not just blind people. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2012, at 7:54 AM, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I will agree with damien's point about access. it is true that even a pc with the best screen reader is not of the same level of access, ie, effortlessness as a sighted user would experience. for example, I am right now checking my mails. I have to look at (ie listen to supernova tell me), the title, subject, sender etc of each as I arrow through them, deleting some, replying to others etc. A sighted user could skim read all the mails on a page in a short space, and delete spam or unnecessary mail very much more quickly using the mouse, simply by virute of the screen overview. So, access technology is not currently, even on the best system the equal of what a sighted person does, and I expect the Iphone is in the same catagory. That being said, unfortunately there isn't a choice. As said with the windows 7 debate, microsoft are going for inconvenient, flashy interfaces with no way of changing their look or feel, simply because they are motivated only by the acquisition of prophit and nothing else, however, failing a massive change in world policy there's not much we can
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Phil, Yes, but again, you have to remember where you are going half the time, which is hard when you've got other things to think about. I can remember phone numbers, but not locations. I've lived in my apartment now for four years now and I still get confused between the location of the fridge and the freezer. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, There are many ways to go to a location in a game, such as in my Sarah game. Coordinate method: From 11, 2,go to 11, 3. From 11, 3 go to 3, 3 from 3,3 go to 3,16 from 3, 16 go to 1, 16 to reach the caretaker's office. Compass method: Go north until you stop, turn west. Go west until you stop, and turn north. Go north until you hear a snoring door and stop. Turn west and go until you stop. to reach the caretaker's office. Distance method: Go forward ten feet and turn left. Go 50 feet and turn right. Go 40 feet and turn left. Go forward 10 feet and stop. to reach the caretaker's office. So there are several ways to get where you want to go. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Thanks. I will do that. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:51 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Using iTunes, do a search for de steno games HTH --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I would like to play that pack of old games. Could you please give me the information for downloading the pack? Thanks. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of michael barnes Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:55 PM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hey, Damien. One of the nice thing about the iPhone is that alot of old games are being ported over to the mobile platform. For exsample the old DOS games by Richard De Steno, have been put in a game pack and now people can play those games with all the classic sounds and gameplay. The iPhone has been a big help to me since I have had mine since 2010. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/20/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/21/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Dark, I think that I do my visualizing sort of like you. I never was good with maps. I associate things with other things. For instance, I know that I go north to get out of the building in the Colossal Cave adventure game and that I need to go west to get into the cave once I get into the first passage. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:59 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien. it's not association, it's just memory. I don't remember say for instance gr first letters of grass so I go right, I just remember that on that particular route grass is where I turn right, that is it. Some landmarks I use are visual, like the low white wall, some are tactile like crossings, heck some are even smell, it's just a technique I've built up over several years. It actually used to really piss me off when mobility trainers used to try and force me to mental map, and asked me things like which direction are you going now heck, I don't know! indeed the best person for mobility was my mum since she is A, visually impared and B, quite totally aware of the way I do things. These days though, as happened when I went to egypt last year, i find I can pretty much select and learn my own landmarks just by following someone the first, and occasionally the second or third time. This helps hugely on stage, since I know if I need to be to the right of and slightly behind someone else, say the king, I can get there, without needing to worry about what else is on the stage or where. Like everything else though, this is all about practice and training, and there's really no way to improve at it other than try, try, try again! I'd actually suggest perhaps you could download a game like shades or terraformers, try it with this idea in mind and practice until you have the memorization of directions down, then maybe try a short journey, say a basic left right. Actually, this could be a very short example game, giving you random objects and associating them with three directions, and asking you to memorize simon style, say right train, left bench etc. I'd always say that whether it's music, getting around, cooking or just about anything else, the best asset a visually impared person has is their memory, - indeed I'm actually quite amazed sometimes when I find for instance that my friends, who are a long way from stupid, can't for instance remember a ten digit phone number without having to write it down. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, You sound a bit like me, though even that long list of directions to your school you posted I wouldn't be able to remember all that in a matter of months. It was a similarly short route if not shorter to the bus stop and I couldn't remember that for the life of me. It doesn't help that I'm not good with association either, so I can't exactly associate, say a bench to the fact that there'll be a road in 30 seconds, so I always end up getting lost anyway. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Tom. I disagree on visualization or spacial awareness, since that is a skill i just do not have. This is why I find a game like battleships, patience/solitare, mine sweeper, chess, or even draughts/checkers nearly impossible to play unless the board is in front of me in either a visual or tactile form for me to get that sort of overview, since I just cannot maintain the memory of where each object is after the audio view of it has moved on. That being said, i do find gma tank commander and shades of doom possible, but my mental way of playing is probably different from other peoples, since instead of attempting to build up a larger, mental map of the entire location, I simply work by memorizing the relations betwene landmarks, and the directions provided by the coordinates system. For example, I know in the first level of shades of doom, that you follow the corridors until you get to the end of one with two doors, one leading to a radio room, the other up a corridor to the fan room. once in the fan room, you can go left into another passage then right into another large room, with a door leading to a passage going out of it to the left, and in that passage is the false wall where the message is (and usually a monster with a gun). I have no practical idea where that room is in comparison to the rest of the stage at all, but by memorizing the landmarks and directions I know just where to find it with respect to the rest
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Phil, So you are the one who wrote the Sarah game. I have heard a few snips of the game and it sounds intriguing! How can I get it? Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:30 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, There are many ways to go to a location in a game, such as in my Sarah game. Coordinate method: From 11, 2,go to 11, 3. From 11, 3 go to 3, 3 from 3,3 go to 3,16 from 3, 16 go to 1, 16 to reach the caretaker's office. Compass method: Go north until you stop, turn west. Go west until you stop, and turn north. Go north until you hear a snoring door and stop. Turn west and go until you stop. to reach the caretaker's office. Distance method: Go forward ten feet and turn left. Go 50 feet and turn right. Go 40 feet and turn left. Go forward 10 feet and stop. to reach the caretaker's office. So there are several ways to get where you want to go. Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/21/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Paulette, if you are serious about games for the iphone, go to http://www.applevis.com lots of stuff there, not just games. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Thanks. I will do that. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:51 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Using iTunes, do a search for de steno games HTH --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I would like to play that pack of old games. Could you please give me the information for downloading the pack? Thanks. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of michael barnes Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:55 PM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hey, Damien. One of the nice thing about the iPhone is that alot of old games are being ported over to the mobile platform. For exsample the old DOS games by Richard De Steno, have been put in a game pack and now people can play those games with all the classic sounds and gameplay. The iPhone has been a big help to me since I have had mine since 2010. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/20/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/21/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Thanks, Fred. I am already a member. I am still learning my way around the site. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of fred olver Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:01 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Paulette, if you are serious about games for the iphone, go to http://www.applevis.com lots of stuff there, not just games. Fred Olver - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Thanks. I will do that. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:51 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Using iTunes, do a search for de steno games HTH --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Paulette Vickery paule...@evickery.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I would like to play that pack of old games. Could you please give me the information for downloading the pack? Thanks. Paulette -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of michael barnes Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 8:55 PM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hey, Damien. One of the nice thing about the iPhone is that alot of old games are being ported over to the mobile platform. For exsample the old DOS games by Richard De Steno, have been put in a game pack and now people can play those games with all the classic sounds and gameplay. The iPhone has been a big help to me since I have had mine since 2010. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/20/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/21/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.455 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4341 - Release Date: 04/21/12 18:34:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I don't think he was actually talking to you. He may have just just replied to the wrong message. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: dark Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 7:51 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Michael, i very much resent that statement that my post was feeling sorry for anyone. I was actually attempting to highlight exactly what you just said, blindness is a disability, and as such has inherent problems with access especially when considdering corporate motivation. This is however not something we can do anything about other than attempting to, --- -as I said, use what devices are there to the best of our ability and promote access. My position is one of realism, not of feeling sorry for anyone, indeed as someone who is currently doing research into the matter of disability and what precisely accessibility or assistance should mean, and making recommendations for improvements in those areas, i don't think I've ever felt sorry at all. In fact, that is part of my deffinition, that disability is a condition that every human will undergo to a greater or lesser extent at some point. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Mike Maslo mmaslo1...@swbell.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks I am so amazed when I read posts like this We are blind and without us getting our sight back we will never be as or on the same level However feeling sorry for yourself or complaining helps how --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
well, I truely think the keyboard will still exist we will have to add it in. Voice recognition will improve as well as touch. And it will be good and fast if I ever set that up. in fact when I get my own 7 unit I may see how far that goes. I don't care for 8 interface but if the recognition is good enough maybe I won't need it for my use at least. At 12:20 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:18 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Karl, I've heard a lot of good things about it, hence the reason I thought I'd give it a go. But as far as I'm concerned, it's nothing but a strenuous tedious ballache. It took me over five minutes to dial a phone number, and I didn't even know how to access anything on it, so I dread to think what I'd be like with gaming. It just seemed like a total waste of time and money. And that's why now I wouldn't touch a touch screen device with a bargepole. As for Nokia now choosing Windows, that actually seems better, since there's a whole lot of games already out for Windows. Don't know how accessible it'll be, I suppose it depends how good current screenreaders support it. Though again if it's anything like or complex than Vista, I think I'll give it a miss. Probably just use it for phone calls and gaming. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Well I aggree with you in part damon. touch will be eventually the way. but my mum has an android and has trouble herself with the touch screen while my brother, dad and a friend with iphones, androids etc actually can out pase my typing speed. my friend is the fastest. At 12:26 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: Hi Thomas, I think you've hit the nail on the head with me. I've never been sighted and therefore never been able to really visualise things. It's like even in the real world, I constantly find myself wondering why cars and pedestrians don't bother going straight forwards rather than sideways, only to be told, They are going forwards. This is also significant in a gaming context, I think this is why I struggle with games such as Shades of Doom. To be able to at least think that I could play GMA Tank Commander, I had to listen to someone else play it and then memorise all the directions, but I couldn't visualise the world. Plus, as I said in a previous post, my fingers are constantly in the way so I can never quite perform the correct action to get it to do what I want, and that is so frustrating. The amount of times I wanted to chuck my stupid IPhone out the window was more than I could count. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, Yeah, touchscreens can be nice once you get use to them. I didn't find them as difficult as I thought they'd be, but there apparently not for everybody. Like everything else in life it all depends on how much effort, time, and energy you are willing to commit to learning the new interface. The best way I can describe it is cane travel verses a dog guide. With cane travel a blind person uses his/her cane to stay in contact with the world around them such as the tree lawn, walls, staircases, parked cars, etc. With a guide dog the dog avoids polls, trash bins, parked cars, and just about everything a blind cane traveler is taught to use as landmarks. The difference between a keyboard and touchscreen is similar. With a keyboard or keypad there are buttons and keys in the same place that a blind person can use to orient himself or herself with. With a touchscreen it is a flat plastic surface with no physical landmarks to orient the blind user. Instead a blind user must use his/her memory and mental image of the screen layout to point at a specific area of the screen and tap the correct icon, menu option, etc. On the iPhone, at least, it helps that you get some verbal feedback as to what you are doing. This is nothing more than a hunch but I'm guessing people who are having trouble with touchscreens have a very poor sense of spacial orientation. They have difficulty visualizing the locations of things on the screen and aren't sure where to put their fingers to activate a certain icon etc. They are easily confused by the user interface because they are unable to form a mental image of the screen and how it is laid out for the sighted user. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:55 PM, dark wrote: I must admit I'm planning on an Iphone myself when my laptop busts, since these days I just need something portable, and there are more and more really awsom sounding games for it. I understand there will be a learning curve, but actually I will probably use games to help me with that, for instance playing text games to learn about screen navigation, the same way that playing online web games got me familiar with site navigation. Of course, I've not tried one yet, so I might be jumping to conclusions, but from the sound of it touch screens are the way to go, and I'm intreagued by the idea of one that works with screen reading. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I aggree with you in part, but not fully. Does anyknow or has anyone researched how long it takes us to catch up period? True ms is giving people a fair go, nvda is already going to the metro system I see it on the list, however, to be honest, for what we pay or are forced to pay for the comercial readers myself I wander how we can keep up. how will we afford something. I am not talking about the new borns, all the current to future generations will more than likely take it as standard and be able to handle it all. Its like the people that were dos guys to those that just used an icon interface. Now if something majorly goes wrong, just put a disk in and a reformat later its all fixed as reformatting always fixes things. Those people don't have time to worry. How for old fullas like myself I must say I am slightly scared of the touch screen, not against it but scared. THe keyboard for me is the way to go but then I used it always. If I were born again, i'd get a braille computer and a mac, windows would be a vertual machine maybe but I'd have a mac maybe a touch screen because it rocks. However I started with dos and now windows and have invested to much to go back. Its doubt for falas like me that we will find it easy to change to what is a unknow and forign viewpoint. Sure it probably makes sence I have no doubt that it does and I am sure once we are adapted to the new borg we will be happy in our function. However we are not borg and therefore it will take ages if at all for some of us to adapt. I plan to go 7 at some point but still keep an xp box. I don't need to upgrade my phone and even if I do, its more than likely it will be an older tech third dition nokia once again with the hundred buck reader on it because for what I use it for I need little else. That will change though. If I can comfortably read the screen like everyone else then fine. One thing I'd really like to do is view things like the sighted, pictures be announced, mouse movement feadback, etc. To play a sighted game, etc. This touch screen technology will probably develop that we can do that along with the ocr tech and we should be able to handle it. There are now bounds. Right now though the funds to buy all this stuff unless it becomes cheaper. screen readers bar nvda are excluded and also voice synths. Then there is the power vs need. Its doubtfull where I am that I will need anymore than a core2 unit with 2gb ram running old windows xp. And unless life takes a big leap foreward I will be running xp till I die or as long as I can get it. maybe 7 but sertainly not 8 or over unless it improves. I guess once keyboards are dropped to a secondary device that will change. However we were perfectly happy in dos. back then it was special environments for the blind. Though I don't care for segrigation by any means the way things are all going we need to decide if we even need the main stream oses anymore. It may be time to go back to a cut down os just for the blind at least for the short term. Then again I may be totally wrong. This is the first major leap where we don't need to worry about whats on the screen and how its displayed but what we input. We either can try to incoperate it into what we do or just make sence of it. I do aggree that its time we catch up with android google chrome os and apple though. I wander how they do that in ubuntu, and how the vinux system will handle it. At 07:38 a.m. 22/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Bryan, Not only that, but I don't think we have much of a choice. I've seen the way Windows 8, Ubuntu Linux 12.04, etc are going and most of the software developers are moving to a touchscreen type user interface. Everyone and their uncle is copying Apple's iOS design and that can only mean that the mainstream market is preparing to add touchscreen technology to a wide range of technologies including the next generation desktops, laptops, and netbooks. No matter how much we love or hate touchscreens I see them becoming a standard input device over the next ten years if not sooner. Rather than complaining about it I think we should do our best to adapt to them, and our efforts should be focused on making sure the new technology is as accessible as it can be. On 4/21/2012 2:00 PM, bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: I think you're missing the point though. Touch screens are cheaper to make and qite frankl last longer since eventually buttons will give out. My laptop for instance is missing te Tab key. Besides, now tat it's been proven that touch screens CAN be made accessible I can see a big leap forward in terms of our technology. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
well I think with my usb port I could do it would be a bit of a pain though but still. At 07:43 a.m. 22/04/2012 -0500, you wrote: I can't imagine laptops going to touch screens, as this would just about kill the touch typing method for blind people. I would certainly hope that there would be a way to connect an external keyboard? A touch screen laptop, unless it works as the iPhone does, would be extremely difficult for us to use. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, unfortunately as I said in my prior post touchscreen devices are becoming more common. Not just on smart phones and tablet PCs but the next generation of Windows laptops and desktops will begin shipping with touchscreens as well. The way Windows 8 is designed instead of a start menu we now have a start screen with icons tiled across the screen in rows and columns like a table. Perfect for a touchscreen, or mouse but a pain in the rear if you try to get to those icons using a keyboard or buttons on a smart phone. However, love it or hate it I think touchscreen technology is here to stay. As for Apple's iPhone I personally don't think it is too bad. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but like everything in life practice makes perfect. I understand your frustration, but I also sense perhaps you just gave up rather than sticking with it. A lot of us who have used iPhones just stuck with it until we figured it out. Rather than getting frustrated and throwing in the towel we practiced at it until we got good at using the phone. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Well the columns are not to bad neither are the ribbons though I am an old dos hacker that likes to fly by the seat of my pants. If you never had to gut your config.sys to fix a problem or hack something on your box to optimise it knowing that at any second it could just go nuts and you'd have to start all over, well you don't have the drive. In a way windows is a bit more restricting. sure you can hack away but the registry is not happy you change one thing and will show it by taking out everything not just one module. A reformat is required to make it all work again and hence I don't touch things unless I need to. I also like the search boxes the fact I don't have to navigate stupid columns or lists like I have to do in xp really helps me a lot. even if I know part of what I want thats fine. I think for now we will have to have all our icons in folders on the desktop and navigate that that way annoying that it is. At 02:09 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: I think keyboards will always be around for typing and word processing, which is a major part of business, since it's very difficult to imagine say stenography or other forms of dictation being done on a touch screen device. that being said, i have noticed a general trend in all sorts of media devices to present as much information in a single place as possible, adds, flashy arrows, and other stuff not withstanding. This is why windows 7 and 8 has the stupid columns layout, so that sighted people don't have to go through multiple screens of information and can have the lot in one place for quick visual overview, which is pretty bad for Vi users since that sort of layout is much more confusing. This is not just on pcs, but on touch screen devices, console game interfaces and lots of things, look at the wii mote and it's use in menues with floating icons (thank you nintendo!). On the plus side, some of these moves have not worked, ie, ribbons, and personalization seems a pretty major thing as well, so it might be that we end up with devices that have! touch screens with large informational displays, but which can be altered in their display settings to show less information, we'll just have to see. then again, the world economic situation at the moment is so loopy, goodness knows what is going to happen to technological developement over the next few years, especially over the next 10 or 20 years when more people who are big internet users and gamers start becoming blind, - heck the webmaster of retroremakes.com is in his early 40's. Then of course there is voice control, a feature which lots of sighted users actually want as well since it offers a very much faster way of doing things, and one which I think we'll be seeing increase, - assuming the world doesn't go blong with some sort of cataclysmic economic and/or military crash, which unfortunately also seems quite a possibility. So, it's probably going to be a case of wait and see what happens, find ways that work for you personally, and watch where the over all trends go. Beware the Grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Desiree Oudinot turtlepowe...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:09 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, Well, we're way past the point where devices with keyboards will be as heavily marketed as they used to be. Unfortunately, what most people are saying is true--the demand for touch screens is a lot higher than the demand for buttons and keyboards. Just look at home appliances that only use touch screens, forcing us to either label them or search for longer than we should have to for older models that are more accessible. My attitude is that, you may have to jump through a few hoops down the road to get the technology you want if you stick to what works for you, but it should pay off in the end. While I definitely do think there's a possibility that all devices with buttons could be fazed out, I don't think it's near enough in the future that we need to panic or complain about it for now. I'm going to cross that bridge when I come to it, if it ever even happens. On 4/21/12, bpeterson2...@cableone.net bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: This is only the first attempt. I don't doubt that in the future they'll be able to be made even more accessible than they are now. Are you threatening me? I am the great Cornholio! I come from Lake Titicaca! -Original Message- From: Damien Pendleton Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2012 3:06 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Brian, What I'm trying to say is, the very nature of a touch screen device makes it seem rather inaccessible, no matter how many attempts and tweaks you make at it. It'd be like giving a computer user a mouse, a screenreader, but no keyboard. The fact is, blind people cannot see the screen, so it would take them way longer than should be necessary to access
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
I think it would be good if touchscreen devices or actual screens had sides, a top and bottom or at least markers for edges etc on a physical note. though iphones do that not sure about droids. At 02:34 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: Hi Tom. Well as I've said, my own mental mapping and spacial location skills are not really up to much, so I'm not sure how a touch screen will work for me. That being said, I probably would be fine if there is some sort of auditory marker, since then, instead of attempting a complete mental map of everything on the pad, I can simply remember right of item x which is indeed how I do all my mental mapping exercizes, by relations to existing objects rather than by attempting some sort of overview, whether that's in an fps game, a mobility route, on stage or whatever else. that's why I'm hoping I'll find a touch screen workable despite my lack of space, since there's lots of interesting stuff on Ios to do at the moment. For pcs though, we'll see. As I said in another message, i think keyboards will always be necessary for reasons of typing and word processing, and thus keyboard navigation. i know microsoft got into severe trouble over the ribbons in windows 7, so I'm hoping that windows 8 will at least be a little more logical, though the annoying trend of womping as much information into as smaller space as possible so that sighted people can get a skim overview is one I'm less fond of. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Dark, Yeah, touchscreens can be nice once you get use to them. I didn't find them as difficult as I thought they'd be, but there apparently not for everybody. Like everything else in life it all depends on how much effort, time, and energy you are willing to commit to learning the new interface. The best way I can describe it is cane travel verses a dog guide. With cane travel a blind person uses his/her cane to stay in contact with the world around them such as the tree lawn, walls, staircases, parked cars, etc. With a guide dog the dog avoids polls, trash bins, parked cars, and just about everything a blind cane traveler is taught to use as landmarks. The difference between a keyboard and touchscreen is similar. With a keyboard or keypad there are buttons and keys in the same place that a blind person can use to orient himself or herself with. With a touchscreen it is a flat plastic surface with no physical landmarks to orient the blind user. Instead a blind user must use his/her memory and mental image of the screen layout to point at a specific area of the screen and tap the correct icon, menu option, etc. On the iPhone, at least, it helps that you get some verbal feedback as to what you are doing. This is nothing more than a hunch but I'm guessing people who are having trouble with touchscreens have a very poor sense of spacial orientation. They have difficulty visualizing the locations of things on the screen and aren't sure where to put their fingers to activate a certain icon etc. They are easily confused by the user interface because they are unable to form a mental image of the screen and how it is laid out for the sighted user. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 12:55 PM, dark wrote: I must admit I'm planning on an Iphone myself when my laptop busts, since these days I just need something portable, and there are more and more really awsom sounding games for it. I understand there will be a learning curve, but actually I will probably use games to help me with that, for instance playing text games to learn about screen navigation, the same way that playing online web games got me familiar with site navigation. Of course, I've not tried one yet, so I might be jumping to conclusions, but from the sound of it touch screens are the way to go, and I'm intreagued by the idea of one that works with screen reading. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Ofcause apple and android is good but I must say I don't hold much in ms access after what they did to narator. Sure we have some access but its only in later years when they really tried. So we may have to have our own comercial access again. At 09:54 a.m. 22/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Dark, Well, that is where VoiceOver comes in handy. As Charles said if you just touch an area of the screen VoiceOver will speak what you are pointing at and iOS won't activate the item unless you double tap or triple tap the item in question. This allows us to explore the touchscreen without accidentally activating everything as we explore the screen and the layout. So there is verbal feedback as to what we are doing. I guess in that sense there is auditory markers. On 4/22/2012 9:34 AM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. Well as I've said, my own mental mapping and spacial location skills are not really up to much, so I'm not sure how a touch screen will work for me. That being said, I probably would be fine if there is some sort of auditory marker, since then, instead of attempting a complete mental map of everything on the pad, I can simply remember right of item x which is indeed how I do all my mental mapping exercizes, by relations to existing objects rather than by attempting some sort of overview, whether that's in an fps game, a mobility route, on stage or whatever else. that's why I'm hoping I'll find a touch screen workable despite my lack of space, since there's lots of interesting stuff on Ios to do at the moment. For pcs though, we'll see. As I said in another message, i think keyboards will always be necessary for reasons of typing and word processing, and thus keyboard navigation. i know microsoft got into severe trouble over the ribbons in windows 7, so I'm hoping that windows 8 will at least be a little more logical, though the annoying trend of womping as much information into as smaller space as possible so that sighted people can get a skim overview is one I'm less fond of. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
well it took my dad a year to get used to his device. My mum got hears in december and is only just getting used to it now. My brother got his 2 months ago but since he uses it extensively for work his learning rate does improve quite fast though it took a month. My friend has handled touch screen devices for the last 3 years including shopping terminals and bank terminals but only got one himself last year and is planning to upgrade to a mow powerfull one in the next year or so. At 03:25 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: Hi Charles, My speed didn't change in two weeks of constantly trying to use it. That's the only phone I had during that period, and I tend to make a lot of calls, send a lot of text, and that's not including trying to find all the cool games that are out there for it. So you could probably say I spent a good five to six hours a day trying to use it. Needless to say my battery was flat about once every 36 hours. I could've kept on with it, but what would have happened if I'd have taken the contract using that phone and still not sussed it in three to four months? I'd have pretty much had no phone at all. And that's why I got even more frustrated than I normally would have, since I knew I was on a time limit. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks You're missing one of the points, though. You say that you shouldn't have to spend 5 minutes doing what should take seconds, but, what you're not realizing is that, with practice and familiarity with the device, your speed and accuracy increases, cutting down the time. Although you may not be able to keep up with sighted people when texting and other applications, you can get proficient enough with the device so that it isn't all that time consuming. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@blunderfield.plus.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 6:20 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
My friend has one of those touch security systems. I think for use the finger scanner or voice print unit or some sort of dna scanning would rock. At 04:20 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: Hi Tom. This was as I thought. interestingly enough, the school where my summer music school takes place have completely flat touchpads on the security locks of the doors. They just require a four digit number to get in, but annoyingly the numbers have no indication at all, however we found that if I stuck a bumpon, or a piece of bluetack just on the 5 key, i could find all the other numbers on the key pad fine. This is what I meant by auditory markers, something akin to that mark on the five key to tell me where on the screen my finger is and what is around it, and as you've just confirmed that's how voice over works, and why I believe I'll hopefully be able to get the trick of it with some practice. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
not to mention the cheapness of the games. At 11:39 a.m. 22/04/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Damien, Hmmm...I'm not sure what I can say in your case. It just seems to me that we as blind users have little choice in the matter. A lot of the smart phones my wife and I have looked at are all touchscreen, and those that have keypads aren't much easier to use because the buttons are way too small or they are so flat that they are hard to feel one from another. For me learning to use an iPhone was making the best out of a bad situation as other touchscreen phones like the Droid phone are less accessible unless you sit down and have someone sighted set everything up for you, and that doesn't even count the $60 or so for the screen reader for Droid OS to boot. So for me at least the iPhone seems to be the best deal we are going to get in terms of a smart phone. Not only that, but as I've said in prior posts its not just smart phones. Just this year I have beta tested a lot of software with drastic U.I. changes designed for a touchscreen device. Windows 8, which I'm running in a virtual machine, is completely different from anything else I've ever used. Its got its accessibility challenges, but no matter how much we scream, cry, and wine I'm pretty certain Microsoft won't change the user interface. We'll have to deal with it in whatever way we can. Same goes for Linux as well. Ubuntu Linux, which I've used for about six years, has recently switched over to a new graphical user interface called Unity. It has introduced a number of accessibility issues/challenges which are being fixed, but when I recommended that the Ubuntu developers wait to introduce Unity once the accessibility issues were fixed I got a resounding no. They explained that its all part of their new marketing strategy to target PCs, smart phones, tablet PCs, etc and they want a user interface suited for touchscreen devices etc. Basically, accessibility takes a backseat to the bottom line. About the only good thing I can say is the Ubuntu developers have worked closely with the blind community to fix bugs and improve the accessibility of the Unity desktop environment in Ubuntu 12.04. Which comes right back to making the most of an undesirable situation. Cheers! On 4/22/2012 7:20 AM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Thomas, Yeah, maybe I did give up. But like I said. That's because I don't believe it is practical to have to sit with a phone spending five minutes trying to access something when you could access the same thing on, say Simbian or XP in a matter of seconds. And if touch screen is the way forward, then I don't know what I'll be doing with computers because it'd be even worse. I couldn't imagine me having to be slow on a computer. That'd drive me insane and make me feel very small. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
on that note, classic shell and programs like it will probably be win8 compatible at some point and will bypass the metro system fully probably. At 05:39 p.m. 22/04/2012 +0100, you wrote: Hi Tom. as I have said before, I could probably learn to live with the search box, but I just like the pleasure and convenience of organizing stuff myself, just as I might books or dvds on a shelf, which is why I think for me the columnbs with a touch screen would actually be preferable to using the search box, hopefully by the time I need to worry about windows 8 there will be good accessible solutions, indeed if touch screen navigation, and other aplications become common on the pcthere might even be some reasonable justification for upgrading to windows 8 that imho there wasn't from xp to 7 as I said in our previous discussion, it'll all depend upon what happens in the next few years I suppose, - though I will say I'd be very sorry to give up my 40 inch flat screen tv that I currently have my pc (which is also my dvd player), gamecube and Snes plugged into, for low vision access to games it's amazingly clear and also larger than any tv I've had before. Though hopefully if the touch screen thing does come into practice, there will be a sensor similar to the one for the wiimote that could be used instead of a specially adapted screen. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Apple rocks. Sorry but they do. What other manufacturer purposefully puts in accessibility from the ground up in their operating systems? Android hasn't, bb hasn't, nokia hasn't, yes nokia has a screen reader but it's not built into the phone. Nore has Microsoft. Touch screens are a weird concept but they aren't as difficult as all that. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Damien Pendleton Sent: 22 April 2012 12:56 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, One blind guy did attempt to show me. In fact, if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't have got my IPhone set up at all. But he had to spend over two hours on the phone setting the stupid thing up. Then when it was set up he tried to tell me what to do with it, and I was constantly getting it wrong. Then it ended up locking, and I couldn't get it unlocked. When I finally did, after about another half an hour, it took me ages to access things. Roughly five minutes to go from item to item trying to figure out how to activate it and see what was there. Over the next two weeks I was using it I'd had conversation after conversation with person after person after person who was trying their level best to tell me how to do something, and I still didn't get anywhere. I was scandalised, I felt like I was having to sit there like a four or five year old learning their alphabet. I couldn't even do something as simple as dial a phone number without sitting there for five minutes, and I couldn't access my phonebook at all. And due to past experiences with companies being inconsiderable or in some cases downright rude and disrespectful to disabled people, I believed that the IPhone was just another one of those. Sometimes I feel like sighted people rub their ability to see in our faces and laugh at us. And that's why I believed it to be a con. It almost feels like we get used to one method, then they see how well we cope with it, so they change it just to throw us off track again so they can tap around like there's no tomorrow and sit there and see us struggling for five or ten minutes to find an item trying to get used to the new interface. Again, I can see why it would be more convenient for sighted people. No scrolling, no highlighting or single/double clicking, just a single tap in a location on screen, and they've got what they want. And why not have that option available, but also keep traditional input methods in as well for people who might struggle with that. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, I understand the fact you don't like touchscreens very much, say you hate them, but I'd like to know why you think Apple is conning the law. Aside from yourself many blind users own and use iPhones with no problems at all and as Cara pointed out on the list a few days ago there is more than 1,400 blind users on the iPhone mailing list. That tells me contrary to conning the law many blind users are quite happy with the level of accessibility with their iPhones. I don't want to sound rude or condescending, but it sounds like because you personally have problems using iPhones then you are effectively saying the same is true for everyone else. That's not true. Its not a matter of conquering the device, but simply learning from other blind users techniques they use to access their iPhone. Perhaps if you had hands on training from a fellow blind iPhone user you would be able to figure it out by asking questions and having someone there to show you a better way of doing this or that. Its like anything else. We learn through reading tutorials or having hands on training if we just don't get it. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 1:25 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion and think that adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt twisted pro sighted business way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination. The fact that so many VI people have found a way to conquer that is rather impressive to me, and if that's the case, then so be it. But I think it's rather unnecessary to have to do that when the business itself should make more of an effort. Just because they don't know we exist, or choose to believe we don't exist, doesn't make us go away. And if companies continue to design things in their own eye happy way, in another twenty or thirty years it's probably unlikely we'd be able to use anything in the mainstream market and we'll be right back to square one with specially designed excessively expensive products and the like. That's only my
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Well, I can agree with that. I can at least highly respect Apple for taking the extra step and building accessibility into their devices. That said, I too am someone who struggles with spacial awareness. I think what it all comes down to is being able to accept that everyone is different, and not everyone can adapt to a completely new concept. As far as touch screens replacing keyboards on computers, I don't think that will happen any time in the conceivable future. On phones, unfortunately, I do see it as a looming problem on the horizon. On 4/23/12, Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com wrote: Apple rocks. Sorry but they do. What other manufacturer purposefully puts in accessibility from the ground up in their operating systems? Android hasn't, bb hasn't, nokia hasn't, yes nokia has a screen reader but it's not built into the phone. Nore has Microsoft. Touch screens are a weird concept but they aren't as difficult as all that. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Damien Pendleton Sent: 22 April 2012 12:56 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Thomas, One blind guy did attempt to show me. In fact, if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't have got my IPhone set up at all. But he had to spend over two hours on the phone setting the stupid thing up. Then when it was set up he tried to tell me what to do with it, and I was constantly getting it wrong. Then it ended up locking, and I couldn't get it unlocked. When I finally did, after about another half an hour, it took me ages to access things. Roughly five minutes to go from item to item trying to figure out how to activate it and see what was there. Over the next two weeks I was using it I'd had conversation after conversation with person after person after person who was trying their level best to tell me how to do something, and I still didn't get anywhere. I was scandalised, I felt like I was having to sit there like a four or five year old learning their alphabet. I couldn't even do something as simple as dial a phone number without sitting there for five minutes, and I couldn't access my phonebook at all. And due to past experiences with companies being inconsiderable or in some cases downright rude and disrespectful to disabled people, I believed that the IPhone was just another one of those. Sometimes I feel like sighted people rub their ability to see in our faces and laugh at us. And that's why I believed it to be a con. It almost feels like we get used to one method, then they see how well we cope with it, so they change it just to throw us off track again so they can tap around like there's no tomorrow and sit there and see us struggling for five or ten minutes to find an item trying to get used to the new interface. Again, I can see why it would be more convenient for sighted people. No scrolling, no highlighting or single/double clicking, just a single tap in a location on screen, and they've got what they want. And why not have that option available, but also keep traditional input methods in as well for people who might struggle with that. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 12:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] LWorks Hi Damien, I understand the fact you don't like touchscreens very much, say you hate them, but I'd like to know why you think Apple is conning the law. Aside from yourself many blind users own and use iPhones with no problems at all and as Cara pointed out on the list a few days ago there is more than 1,400 blind users on the iPhone mailing list. That tells me contrary to conning the law many blind users are quite happy with the level of accessibility with their iPhones. I don't want to sound rude or condescending, but it sounds like because you personally have problems using iPhones then you are effectively saying the same is true for everyone else. That's not true. Its not a matter of conquering the device, but simply learning from other blind users techniques they use to access their iPhone. Perhaps if you had hands on training from a fellow blind iPhone user you would be able to figure it out by asking questions and having someone there to show you a better way of doing this or that. Its like anything else. We learn through reading tutorials or having hands on training if we just don't get it. Cheers! On 4/21/2012 1:25 PM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hi Dark, If I were to go into my deepest thoughts about touch screen, I'd have to ban myself for profanity. Trust it to say, I hate them with a passion and think that adding voiceover to a touch screen device is just another corrupt twisted pro sighted business way of conning the law and getting away with discrimination. The fact that so many VI people have
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
ios games are going to be simpler though the windows projects will and can be, ore complex i am sure, the archery game i'd complete first go no problems On 21 Apr 2012, at 13:19, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hey, If LWorks is making IOS games, does that mean that there's a chance he may come back to us loyal Windows users? Cheers. Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hey, I wonder that myself. I also would like to know about Super Egg Hunt Plus how I can get a copy of the game? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] LWorks
Hi Damien, That's hard to say. For one thing there are developers who write iOS games etc on a contract basis and its possible Liam is simply hiring someone to develop the games for him. In a case like that he can keep producing games for LWorks without actively developing games himself. Of course, if he is developing the games himself or hiring the job out to a third-party developer he has a personal interest in supporting iOS devices and has decided to get out of the PC market. As someone who also tends to spend more and more time on mobile devices I can see why that is a much more appealing target than writing games for his desktop or laptop at home. :D On 4/21/2012 8:19 AM, Damien Pendleton wrote: Hey, If LWorks is making IOS games, does that mean that there's a chance he may come back to us loyal Windows users? Cheers. Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
