Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Tobias Kammersgaard]

I'm messing around with the SDK, and decided it would be easiest to reset
the game configurations for all the engine versions for what I wanted to do.
I noticed that after I had reset it, the setup was as following:

Source 2006 Games:
- Half-Life 2: Deathmatch

Source 2007 Games:
- None

Source 2009 Games:
- Half-Life 2
- Half-Life 2: Episode One
- Half-Life 2: Episode Two
- Portal
- Team Fortress 2
- Day of Defeat: Source
- Counter-Strike: Source

Since the SDK haven't been updated for a long time, the list isn't correct.
HL2DM doesn't run on Source 2006 anymore, which means all Valve games
(except Lost Coast) are running on Source 2009. Valve needs take a decision.
Either get rid of the old engine revisions in the SDK, or leave them for
confusion (and support for really old mods - which of most were broken when
HL2DM was updated to Src 2009). My suggestion is getting rid of Source 2006,
release the Source 2009 making it attractive to work with the Source engine
again.

I accidentally just stumbled upon this page:
http://source.valvesoftware.com/sourcesdk.php

I quote:
"Valve is dedicated to providing the best tools and resources for the
modding community. The Source engine and SDK give you all the tools you need
to produce brilliant game creations."

Under Contact on Valve's site you can also find:

"Mods and the Software Developer's Kit: s...@valvesoftware.com"

Not really sure what the point is of pointing this out, but I'm doing it
anyway. I'm still hoping that Valve are going to reply or just magically
release the update Tony Sergi worked on the time he contracted for Valve.


- ScarT


On 5 November 2010 05:34, Cory de La Torre  wrote:

> Last time I heard, shader authoring wasn't possible for modders in AS.
>
> On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Marek Sieradzki <
> marek.sierad...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > I wonder if you can get shaders to work in ASW.
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Cory de La Torre]

Last time I heard, shader authoring wasn't possible for modders in AS.

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Marek Sieradzki  wrote:

> I wonder if you can get shaders to work in ASW.
>
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Marek Sieradzki]

I wonder if you can get shaders to work in ASW.

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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[psycommando]

I'd be very interested, even if the vgui panels are messed up!

-Original Message- 
From: Tony "omega" Sergi

Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 12:43 AM
To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

Yeah, I'm in Korea.

Anyway, I was messing around with the Alien Swarm stuff today and I've
gotten most of the template ported over and working. Before it's easily
useable I have to convert the VGUI panels though.
http://www.omegaowns.us/omega/swarm/sdk_teams_hdr0002.jpg
When I have more time, i'll see about finishing it up if anyone is
interested. Since I'm just doing it for fun, I may not actually finish it ;)
The main issues that I have to deal with before it's complete is the vgui
panels, and getting around the overriding of scripts via vpks (as
override_vpk doesn't stop the overriding of resources completely..)
and a few misc things like the lack of hl2 content, so I'll need to replace
things with alien swarm stuff to make it work properly.
also of note is that my projects use vs2008 not 2005.

-Tony



On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Psy_Commando  wrote:


I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm
source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games statistics
or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving 
that

in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if its
based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ. 
However,

I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one
codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to 
date.


-Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?


A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
thousands of inter-dependencies.

On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:


The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option
for
source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
2009 sdk?

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:

 I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the

SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(

As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
I could be using for something more rewarding.

As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
and release often" advice Valve pushed.

- Jed






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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Cory de La Torre]

Sorry for the double email, but having read you huge email Tres, you've
summed up quite a few things I've recently been thinking about myself. It's
always speculation of course, but it does seem Episode 3 is going to be the
next grand evolution in source for Valve, at least thats what seems to be
happening here. It's going to already receive the huge upgrades source has
received from previous titles such as Portal 2 and Left 4 Dead, and I really
can't wait to see that happen. Half of me sort of wants to believe it's
true, while the other doesn't. I haven't seen any of the Half Life 2
Episodes majorly move Source forward. It wasn't until L4D where valve
entirely re-write the backend shit, and that seems to have happened again
with left 4 Dead 2.

Valve seems to be slowly but surely fixing source as titles release. I'm
betting Portal 2 is going to clean up source quite a lot. Once again though,
the real thing seems to be people wanting to move onto AS as well. The lack
of HL2 content is a problem for anyone wanting to create a Half Life 2 based
mod, and further backward compatible problems could also be a major hurdle.
Though starting a semi-indie project on the AS version of source is much
more possible.


On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Cory de La Torre wrote:

> Thanks Tony, once again you save the day man.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Harry Jeffery <
> harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, that'll be really useful.
>>
>> On 31 October 2010 04:43, Tony "omega" Sergi  wrote:
>> > Yeah, I'm in Korea.
>> >
>> > Anyway, I was messing around with the Alien Swarm stuff today and I've
>> > gotten most of the template ported over and working. Before it's easily
>> > useable I have to convert the VGUI panels though.
>> > http://www.omegaowns.us/omega/swarm/sdk_teams_hdr0002.jpg
>> > When I have more time, i'll see about finishing it up if anyone is
>> > interested. Since I'm just doing it for fun, I may not actually finish
>> it ;)
>> > The main issues that I have to deal with before it's complete is the
>> vgui
>> > panels, and getting around the overriding of scripts via vpks (as
>> > override_vpk doesn't stop the overriding of resources completely..)
>> > and a few misc things like the lack of hl2 content, so I'll need to
>> replace
>> > things with alien swarm stuff to make it work properly.
>> > also of note is that my projects use vs2008 not 2005.
>> >
>> > -Tony
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Psy_Commando 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm
>> >> source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games
>> statistics
>> >> or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving
>> that
>> >> in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if
>> its
>> >> based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ.
>> However,
>> >> I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one
>> >> codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to
>> date.
>> >>
>> >> -Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery
>> >> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
>> >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
>> >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
>> >> through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
>> >> stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
>> >> easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
>> >> thousands of inter-dependencies.
>> >>
>> >> On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod
>> option
>> >>> for
>> >>> source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code
>> and
>> >>> update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA
>> for
>> >>> 2009 sdk?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of
>> the
&g

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Tony "omega" Sergi]

you're welcome.
I'm heading to bed, cuz i have to work in the morning, but here's the
results of my Sunday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBZFPillw9E

when i find more time i'll continue it, but this week i'm going to be very
busy.
-Tony

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Cory de La Torre wrote:

> Thanks Tony, once again you save the day man.
>
> On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Harry Jeffery <
> harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Cory de La Torre]

Thanks Tony, once again you save the day man.

On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 6:15 AM, Harry Jeffery <
harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, that'll be really useful.
>
> On 31 October 2010 04:43, Tony "omega" Sergi  wrote:
> > Yeah, I'm in Korea.
> >
> > Anyway, I was messing around with the Alien Swarm stuff today and I've
> > gotten most of the template ported over and working. Before it's easily
> > useable I have to convert the VGUI panels though.
> > http://www.omegaowns.us/omega/swarm/sdk_teams_hdr0002.jpg
> > When I have more time, i'll see about finishing it up if anyone is
> > interested. Since I'm just doing it for fun, I may not actually finish it
> ;)
> > The main issues that I have to deal with before it's complete is the vgui
> > panels, and getting around the overriding of scripts via vpks (as
> > override_vpk doesn't stop the overriding of resources completely..)
> > and a few misc things like the lack of hl2 content, so I'll need to
> replace
> > things with alien swarm stuff to make it work properly.
> > also of note is that my projects use vs2008 not 2005.
> >
> > -Tony
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Psy_Commando 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm
> >> source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games
> statistics
> >> or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving
> that
> >> in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if its
> >> based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ.
> However,
> >> I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one
> >> codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to
> date.
> >>
> >> -Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery
> >> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
> >> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
> >> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?
> >>
> >>
> >> A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
> >> through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
> >> stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
> >> easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
> >> thousands of inter-dependencies.
> >>
> >> On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
> >>
> >>> The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod
> option
> >>> for
> >>> source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code
> and
> >>> update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA
> for
> >>> 2009 sdk?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
> >>>> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
> >>>>
> >>>> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
> >>>> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
> >>>> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
> >>>> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
> >>>> I could be using for something more rewarding.
> >>>>
> >>>> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
> >>>> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
> >>>> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
> >>>> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
> >>>> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Jed
> >>>>
> >>>
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
> >
> >
>
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Harry Jeffery]

Thanks, that'll be really useful.

On 31 October 2010 04:43, Tony "omega" Sergi  wrote:
> Yeah, I'm in Korea.
>
> Anyway, I was messing around with the Alien Swarm stuff today and I've
> gotten most of the template ported over and working. Before it's easily
> useable I have to convert the VGUI panels though.
> http://www.omegaowns.us/omega/swarm/sdk_teams_hdr0002.jpg
> When I have more time, i'll see about finishing it up if anyone is
> interested. Since I'm just doing it for fun, I may not actually finish it ;)
> The main issues that I have to deal with before it's complete is the vgui
> panels, and getting around the overriding of scripts via vpks (as
> override_vpk doesn't stop the overriding of resources completely..)
> and a few misc things like the lack of hl2 content, so I'll need to replace
> things with alien swarm stuff to make it work properly.
> also of note is that my projects use vs2008 not 2005.
>
> -Tony
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Psy_Commando  wrote:
>
>> I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm
>> source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games statistics
>> or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving that
>> in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if its
>> based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ. However,
>> I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one
>> codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to date.
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery
>> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
>> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
>> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?
>>
>>
>> A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
>> through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
>> stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
>> easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
>> thousands of inter-dependencies.
>>
>> On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
>>
>>> The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option
>>> for
>>> source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
>>> update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
>>> 2009 sdk?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
>>>
>>>  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
>>>> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
>>>>
>>>> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
>>>> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
>>>> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
>>>> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
>>>> I could be using for something more rewarding.
>>>>
>>>> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
>>>> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
>>>> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
>>>> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
>>>> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
>>>>
>>>> - Jed
>>>>
>>>
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Byron Mallett]

All the talk of burgers just made me really hungry. :(

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:44 AM,  wrote:

> I think main problem is that we have more than one engine branch.
> As a result we have problems with mods, especially with source code.
> Sorry if I added nothing new in the discussion.
> This is my first post here btw.
>
>
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Igoreso]

I think main problem is that we have more than one engine branch.
As a result we have problems with mods, especially with source code.
Sorry if I added nothing new in the discussion.
This is my first post here btw.


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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Tres Walsh]

I realize the discussion has started to move in a different direction,
but I would just like to briefly state... something. I wouldn't really
call it an opinion. This might be a bit long winded (and I should warn
you a cuil-like, nearly nonsensical metaphor is approaching), but bear
with with me :)

I view Valve as one of "the three", when it comes to first person
shooter technology. Id, Epic, and Valve. Each studio seems to focus on
a particular aspect when it comes to development. Id focuses on the
technology, Epic focuses on the art, and Valve really doesn't care
about their tools, but rather the end product (as long as the player
wants more). And this is, I think, apparent when viewing the ad-hoc
way in which features are added (or should that be bolted? :P) on to
the Source engine, as opposed to say Id Tech, or the Unreal Engine,
where large portions of the engine are written with each iteration.

Now to get to the metaphor of engine technology I call "The Burger".

Let's assume for a moment, that Id software has created a burger. It's
the first of its kind (to be released), and the cook, John Carmack, is
quite pleased with this creation. Everyone loves it, and some say it
will be the future of cuisine. John tells those who wish to listen
about what is in the burger, how he had to change the ingredients to
ensure that everyone in the world would be able to eat it, and enjoy
it, as well as some of the challenges to make it look and taste so
amazing. But, as a problem, nearly everyone in the world has begun to
hack together their own kind of burger, but only by looking at John's
Burger (because not everyone has the money to pay for the recipe).
Regardless, the Cheesequaker was a huge success.

Meanwhile, a man named Tim Sweeney began cooking his own burger as
well. He was aware of John's Burger, and had started to create his own
before John's would be released to the public. A few screenshots of
what Tim's burger *could* be were enough to entice burger fan's
everywhere. But instead, a young man was brought into Tim's Kitchen.
The burger's ingredients were delicious, but the burger could
definitely look better, so this young man named Cliff added some
pizazz to the burger. Once released, Tim allowed people to purchase
the ingredients, as long as they promised not to tell anyone what was
in them, they could create a brand new burger, independent of their
own (indeed, one such restaurant was 3D Realms, which promised The
Duke, a burger that would satisfy you, *forever*). Even fans of the
burger were told how they could add zest, and spice to this "Bunreal".

Around the time of the Bunreal release, a startup approached John
Carmack, and told him of an idea they had for a burger, built on his
recipes. John, rather than be an megalomaniac, gave them the recipes,
parting with the words "Make something great". This startup did. Using
some as of yet unreleased at the time additions to the Cheesequaker,
they were able to create a wonderful masterpiece. "Half Fry-fe".

Let's skip forward several years, and ditch this metaphor because the
punchline has been told, and the horse has been beaten to death
(horse? don't you mean cow? hahaha). And I don't want to iterate all
of FPS gaming in the past 15 years for everyone with burger jokes,
because I'm fairly certain a majority of us were all there for it. :)

Part of why I think the Source SDK is starting to feel old and
decrepit is because of design decisions with the tools early on. I
emailed Valve back in and Mike was kind enough to respond. I asked
what toolkits Valve used, with nearly everything, and was told that
Hammer (and friends) used the old MFC framework, with a few tools
relying on Mete Cirrigan (of Milkshape 3D fame's) mxToolkit (though
this is mentioned in the copyright statements for the Source SDK).  I
don't believe this is Mike's fault, nor do I think anyone wishes it
was, and if anything I think he is slowly trying to phase it out, or
at the very least, quickly phase it out in favor of OS X support. And
yes, the code for Source itself is most definitely not the cleanest
code. From clear cases of code that is ingrained with some instances
of code that hark back to the QuakeWorld version of the engine (I have
no way to prove it, but the ZPool/Memory Pool is most likely somewhere
within the confines of Source in some way shape or form. You can't
*not* have a memory pool. Otherwise I would question how Team Fortress
2 is able to allocate so much memory), to routines that return
allocated memory, to "C With Objects" code, to preprocessor macros
that have a blatent disregard for sanity (http://i.imgur.com/maP8P.png
<-- seriously guys, you couldn't use a va_list? I mean I'm all for
type safety, but at some point you've just got to step back and say
"It's ok to have a little overhead when calling a script from C++".
I'm pretty sure that list gets bigger too. I'm *not* diving back into
that code), to a small amount of template usage, and function
overloading, 

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Tony "omega" Sergi]

I have the MOTD and team panels working now. They just function
significantly different. I'm done for the week ;)


On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Matt Hoffman
wrote:

> Actual proper non-commander first person? We'll take it.
>
> On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Tony "omega" Sergi  >wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I'm in Korea.
> >
> > Anyway, I was messing around with the Alien Swarm stuff today and I've
> > gotten most of the template ported over and working. Before it's easily
> > useable I have to convert the VGUI panels though.
> > http://www.omegaowns.us/omega/swarm/sdk_teams_hdr0002.jpg
> > When I have more time, i'll see about finishing it up if anyone is
> > interested. Since I'm just doing it for fun, I may not actually finish it
> > ;)
> > The main issues that I have to deal with before it's complete is the vgui
> > panels, and getting around the overriding of scripts via vpks (as
> > override_vpk doesn't stop the overriding of resources completely..)
> > and a few misc things like the lack of hl2 content, so I'll need to
> replace
> > things with alien swarm stuff to make it work properly.
> > also of note is that my projects use vs2008 not 2005.
> >
> > -Tony
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Psy_Commando 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm
> > > source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games
> > statistics
> > > or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving
> > that
> > > in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if
> its
> > > based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ.
> > However,
> > > I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one
> > > codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to
> > date.
> > >
> > > -Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery
> > > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
> > > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
> > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?
> > >
> > >
> > > A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
> > > through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
> > > stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
> > > easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
> > > thousands of inter-dependencies.
> > >
> > > On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
> > >
> > >> The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod
> option
> > >> for
> > >> source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code
> > and
> > >> update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA
> > for
> > >> 2009 sdk?
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of
> the
> > >>> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
> > >>>
> > >>> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
> > >>> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
> > >>> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
> > >>> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
> > >>> I could be using for something more rewarding.
> > >>>
> > >>> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK
> would
> > >>> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
> > >>> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
> > >>> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release
> soon
> > >>> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
> > >>>
> > >>> - Jed
> > >>>
> > >>
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
> >
> >
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
>
>


-- 
-Tony
___
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visit:
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Matt Hoffman]

Actual proper non-commander first person? We'll take it.

On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Tony "omega" Sergi wrote:

> Yeah, I'm in Korea.
>
> Anyway, I was messing around with the Alien Swarm stuff today and I've
> gotten most of the template ported over and working. Before it's easily
> useable I have to convert the VGUI panels though.
> http://www.omegaowns.us/omega/swarm/sdk_teams_hdr0002.jpg
> When I have more time, i'll see about finishing it up if anyone is
> interested. Since I'm just doing it for fun, I may not actually finish it
> ;)
> The main issues that I have to deal with before it's complete is the vgui
> panels, and getting around the overriding of scripts via vpks (as
> override_vpk doesn't stop the overriding of resources completely..)
> and a few misc things like the lack of hl2 content, so I'll need to replace
> things with alien swarm stuff to make it work properly.
> also of note is that my projects use vs2008 not 2005.
>
> -Tony
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Psy_Commando 
> wrote:
>
> > I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm
> > source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games
> statistics
> > or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving
> that
> > in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if its
> > based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ.
> However,
> > I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one
> > codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to
> date.
> >
> > -Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery
> > Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
> > To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
> > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?
> >
> >
> > A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
> > through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
> > stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
> > easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
> > thousands of inter-dependencies.
> >
> > On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
> >
> >> The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option
> >> for
> >> source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code
> and
> >> update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA
> for
> >> 2009 sdk?
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
> >>
> >>  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
> >>> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
> >>>
> >>> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
> >>> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
> >>> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
> >>> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
> >>> I could be using for something more rewarding.
> >>>
> >>> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
> >>> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
> >>> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
> >>> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
> >>> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
> >>>
> >>> - Jed
> >>>
> >>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
>
>
___
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visit:
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Tony "omega" Sergi]

Yeah, I'm in Korea.

Anyway, I was messing around with the Alien Swarm stuff today and I've
gotten most of the template ported over and working. Before it's easily
useable I have to convert the VGUI panels though.
http://www.omegaowns.us/omega/swarm/sdk_teams_hdr0002.jpg
When I have more time, i'll see about finishing it up if anyone is
interested. Since I'm just doing it for fun, I may not actually finish it ;)
The main issues that I have to deal with before it's complete is the vgui
panels, and getting around the overriding of scripts via vpks (as
override_vpk doesn't stop the overriding of resources completely..)
and a few misc things like the lack of hl2 content, so I'll need to replace
things with alien swarm stuff to make it work properly.
also of note is that my projects use vs2008 not 2005.

-Tony



On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Psy_Commando  wrote:

> I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm
> source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games statistics
> or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving that
> in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if its
> based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ. However,
> I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one
> codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to date.
>
> -Original Message- From: Harry Jeffery
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
> To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
> Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?
>
>
> A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
> through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
> stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
> easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
> thousands of inter-dependencies.
>
> On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
>
>> The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option
>> for
>> source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
>> update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
>> 2009 sdk?
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
>>
>>  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
>>> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
>>>
>>> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
>>> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
>>> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
>>> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
>>> I could be using for something more rewarding.
>>>
>>> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
>>> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
>>> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
>>> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
>>> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
>>>
>>> - Jed
>>>
>>
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visit:
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Psy_Commando]

I had the same issue with Alien Swarm. But not only is the Alien Swarm 
source code a hard coded mess, it constantly tries to get games statistics 
or authorisations from the steam server!!! What's the point of leaving that 
in? I could put up with that, but there is no documentation, even if its 
based on the same engine as the source sdk, lots of things differ. However, 
I must say ASw was an improvement, in the sense that there is only one 
codebase(unlike source 2006-2007-2009) and it's easy to keep it up to date.


-Original Message- 
From: Harry Jeffery

Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 3:05 PM
To: Discussion of Half-Life Programming
Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
thousands of inter-dependencies.

On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option 
for

source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
2009 sdk?

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:


I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(

As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
I could be using for something more rewarding.

As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
and release often" advice Valve pushed.

- Jed


On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
 wrote:
> Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired
to
> focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they
need
> to build your games."
>
> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> From: "Mike Durand" 
> To: 
> Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
>
> Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
> introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
>
> I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
> directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
> responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
> use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with 
> the

> help of other members of the community.
>
> My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
> build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
> but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions 
> you

> have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
>
> So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
> really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
> are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
> be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems 
> during
> testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be 
> this
> week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the 
> info

> on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange 
> Box
> code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam 
> in

> several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing
updates
> to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over
the
> years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source
SDK.
>
> I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
> starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended 
> the

> Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
>
> I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up
lately,
> such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
>
> http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
>
http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
>

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Jarno 'Ywa' Veuger]

I don't know the exact story behind it. But he works on Tactical 
Intervention (Source game) now, for some Asian studio.


- Ywa

Op 29-Oct-10 22:42, Jacob "J*Rod" Salas schreef:

Oh did he leave? I didn't hear that so I'm not sure.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Jarno Veuger  wrote:


Tony S. doesn't work for Valve anymore. He stills helps others where he can
though (as far as I can tell).

- Ywa

Op 29-Oct-10 21:17, ~CzF|JS*~ J*Rod schreef:

  Same here, as I once tried implementing the 2007 scratch SDK into the

Alien
Swarm code, and ended up going back to 2007 to keep working on
programming.

As for Mike, he's probably busy with talking on forums with people who
need
help with certain things. And what about Tony Sergi, the guy who created
the
scratch SDK in the first place? I understand he has much more community
involvement and would probably have use to make an Alien Swarm scratch
mod.


On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Harry Jeffery<
harry101jeff...@googlemail.com>   wrote:

  A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked

through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
thousands of inter-dependencies.

On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L   wrote:


The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option


for


source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code
and
update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA
for
2009 sdk?

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed   wrote:

  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the

SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(

As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
I could be using for something more rewarding.

As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
and release often" advice Valve pushed.

- Jed


On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
   wrote:


Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's


hired

to

focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything


they

need

to build your games."

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
From: "Mike Durand"
To:
Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com

Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.

I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with


the

help of other members of the community.

My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the


VDC,

but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions

you

have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.

So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that


you

really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we

are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It


will

be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems

during

testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be

this

week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the

info

on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.

-Mike


That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange


Box

code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam

in

several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing

updates


to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over


the


years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the


Source

SDK.

I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended


the

Source SDK and the Source engine many times.

I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up


lately,


such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.

http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/



http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/


Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Jacob "J*Rod" Salas]

Oh did he leave? I didn't hear that so I'm not sure.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Jarno Veuger  wrote:

> Tony S. doesn't work for Valve anymore. He stills helps others where he can
> though (as far as I can tell).
>
> - Ywa
>
> Op 29-Oct-10 21:17, ~CzF|JS*~ J*Rod schreef:
>
>  Same here, as I once tried implementing the 2007 scratch SDK into the
>> Alien
>> Swarm code, and ended up going back to 2007 to keep working on
>> programming.
>>
>> As for Mike, he's probably busy with talking on forums with people who
>> need
>> help with certain things. And what about Tony Sergi, the guy who created
>> the
>> scratch SDK in the first place? I understand he has much more community
>> involvement and would probably have use to make an Alien Swarm scratch
>> mod.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Harry Jeffery<
>> harry101jeff...@googlemail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>  A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
>>> through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
>>> stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
>>> easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
>>> thousands of inter-dependencies.
>>>
>>> On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
>>>
 The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option

>>> for
>>>
 source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code
 and
 update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA
 for
 2009 sdk?

 On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:

  I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
>
> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
> I could be using for something more rewarding.
>
> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
>
> - Jed
>
>
> On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
>   wrote:
>
>> Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's
>>
> hired
>>>
 to
>
>> focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
>> I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything
>>
> they
>>>
 need
>
>> to build your games."
>>
>> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
>> From: "Mike Durand"
>> To:
>> Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
>> Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
>>
>> Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
>> introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
>>
>> I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
>> directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
>> responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
>> use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with
>>
> the
>>>
 help of other members of the community.
>>
>> My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
>> build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the
>>
> VDC,
>>>
 but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions
>>
> you
>>>
 have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
>>
>> So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that
>>
> you
>>>
 really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
>> are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It
>>
> will
>>>
 be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems
>>
> during
>>>
 testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be
>>
> this
>>>
 week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the
>>
> info
>>>
 on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>>
>> That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange
>>
> Box
>>>
 code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam
>>
> in
>>>
 several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing
>>
> updates
>
>> to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over
>>
> the
>
>> years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the
>>
>>

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Jarno Veuger]

Tony S. doesn't work for Valve anymore. He stills helps others where he 
can though (as far as I can tell).


- Ywa

Op 29-Oct-10 21:17, ~CzF|JS*~ J*Rod schreef:

Same here, as I once tried implementing the 2007 scratch SDK into the Alien
Swarm code, and ended up going back to 2007 to keep working on programming.

As for Mike, he's probably busy with talking on forums with people who need
help with certain things. And what about Tony Sergi, the guy who created the
scratch SDK in the first place? I understand he has much more community
involvement and would probably have use to make an Alien Swarm scratch mod.


On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Harry Jeffery<
harry101jeff...@googlemail.com>  wrote:


A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
thousands of inter-dependencies.

On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:

The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option

for

source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
2009 sdk?

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:


I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(

As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
I could be using for something more rewarding.

As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
and release often" advice Valve pushed.

- Jed


On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
  wrote:

Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's

hired

to

focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything

they

need

to build your games."

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
From: "Mike Durand"
To:
Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com

Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.

I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with

the

help of other members of the community.

My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the

VDC,

but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions

you

have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.

So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that

you

really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It

will

be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems

during

testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be

this

week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the

info

on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.

-Mike


That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange

Box

code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam

in

several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing

updates

to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over

the

years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the

Source

SDK.

I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended

the

Source SDK and the Source engine many times.

I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up

lately,

such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.

http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/


http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/

Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work

with.

Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love

how

they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile

scripts

directly from context menus.

What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK

or

tools run before I can actually test whatever I've

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[~CzF|JS*~ J*Rod]

Same here, as I once tried implementing the 2007 scratch SDK into the Alien
Swarm code, and ended up going back to 2007 to keep working on programming.

As for Mike, he's probably busy with talking on forums with people who need
help with certain things. And what about Tony Sergi, the guy who created the
scratch SDK in the first place? I understand he has much more community
involvement and would probably have use to make an Alien Swarm scratch mod.


On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Harry Jeffery <
harry101jeff...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
> through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
> stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
> easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
> thousands of inter-dependencies.
>
> On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
> > The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option
> for
> > source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
> > update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
> > 2009 sdk?
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
> >
> >> I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
> >> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
> >>
> >> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
> >> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
> >> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
> >> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
> >> I could be using for something more rewarding.
> >>
> >> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
> >> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
> >> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
> >> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
> >> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
> >>
> >> - Jed
> >>
> >>
> >> On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
> >>  wrote:
> >> > Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's
> hired
> >> to
> >> > focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> >> > I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything
> they
> >> need
> >> > to build your games."
> >> >
> >> > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> >> > From: "Mike Durand" 
> >> > To: 
> >> > Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> >> > Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
> >> >
> >> > Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
> >> > introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
> >> >
> >> > I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
> >> > directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
> >> > responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
> >> > use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with
> the
> >> > help of other members of the community.
> >> >
> >> > My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
> >> > build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the
> VDC,
> >> > but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions
> you
> >> > have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
> >> >
> >> > So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that
> you
> >> > really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
> >> > are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It
> will
> >> > be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems
> during
> >> > testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be
> this
> >> > week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the
> info
> >> > on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
> >> >
> >> > -Mike
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange
> Box
> >> > code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam
> in
> >> > several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing
> >> updates
> >> > to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over
> >> the
> >> > years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the
> Source
> >> SDK.
> >> >
> >> > I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
> >> > starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended
> the
> >> > Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
> >> >
> >> > I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up
> >> lately,
> >> > such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
> >> >
> >> > http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
> >> >
> >>
> http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
> >> >
> >> > Yeah we're getting the SDK for fre

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Harry Jeffery]

A scratch sdk option for the Alien Swarm code would be nice. I looked
through the code with an intent to mod it but the alienswarm specific
stuff got in the way so much. I just gave up on it as there was no
easy way to remove the alienswarm stuff without going through
thousands of inter-dependencies.

On 29 October 2010 19:52, Dan L  wrote:
> The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option for
> source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
> update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
> 2009 sdk?
>
> On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:
>
>> I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
>> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
>>
>> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
>> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
>> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
>> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
>> I could be using for something more rewarding.
>>
>> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
>> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
>> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
>> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
>> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>> On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
>>  wrote:
>> > Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired
>> to
>> > focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
>> > I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they
>> need
>> > to build your games."
>> >
>> > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
>> > From: "Mike Durand" 
>> > To: 
>> > Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
>> > Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
>> >
>> > Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
>> > introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
>> >
>> > I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
>> > directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
>> > responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
>> > use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with the
>> > help of other members of the community.
>> >
>> > My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
>> > build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
>> > but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions you
>> > have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
>> >
>> > So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
>> > really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
>> > are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
>> > be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems during
>> > testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be this
>> > week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the info
>> > on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
>> >
>> > -Mike
>> >
>> >
>> > That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange Box
>> > code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam in
>> > several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing
>> updates
>> > to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over
>> the
>> > years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source
>> SDK.
>> >
>> > I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
>> > starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended the
>> > Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
>> >
>> > I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up
>> lately,
>> > such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
>> >
>> > http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
>> >
>> http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
>> >
>> > Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work
>> with.
>> > Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love how
>> > they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile
>> scripts
>> > directly from context menus.
>> >
>> > What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK or
>> > tools run before I can actually test whatever I've changed or made.
>> >
>> > I'm setting the bar low, and not expecting any response from anyone at
>> > Valve, that way I won't be more disappointed.
>> >
>> > I guess I just needed to get it off my chest.
>> >
>> >
>> > I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way,
>> or
>> > want to share their opinion on this matter. For those that find it
>> annoying

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Jeffrey "botman" Broome]

Any ETA would be meaningless, Valve Time, remember...  :)

http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time


Jeffrey "botman" Broome

On 10/29/2010 1:52 PM, Dan L wrote:

Can we at least get an ETA for
2009 sdk?


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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Dan L]

The thing i am most upset about is there is still no create a mod option for
source 2009 based games.  I wish valve would include full hl2:dm code and
update it as it patches like alien swarm.  Can we at least get an ETA for
2009 sdk?

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Jed  wrote:

> I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
> SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(
>
> As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
> the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
> nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
> just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
> I could be using for something more rewarding.
>
> As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
> of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
> beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
> least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
> and release often" advice Valve pushed.
>
> - Jed
>
>
> On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
>  wrote:
> > Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired
> to
> > focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> > I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they
> need
> > to build your games."
> >
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> > From: "Mike Durand" 
> > To: 
> > Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> > Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
> >
> > Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
> > introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
> >
> > I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
> > directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
> > responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
> > use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with the
> > help of other members of the community.
> >
> > My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
> > build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
> > but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions you
> > have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
> >
> > So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
> > really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
> > are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
> > be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems during
> > testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be this
> > week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the info
> > on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> > That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange Box
> > code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam in
> > several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing
> updates
> > to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over
> the
> > years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source
> SDK.
> >
> > I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
> > starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended the
> > Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
> >
> > I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up
> lately,
> > such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
> >
> > http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
> >
> http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
> >
> > Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work
> with.
> > Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love how
> > they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile
> scripts
> > directly from context menus.
> >
> > What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK or
> > tools run before I can actually test whatever I've changed or made.
> >
> > I'm setting the bar low, and not expecting any response from anyone at
> > Valve, that way I won't be more disappointed.
> >
> > I guess I just needed to get it off my chest.
> >
> >
> > I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way,
> or
> > want to share their opinion on this matter. For those that find it
> annoying
> > to receive these kind of messages, feel free to mute the conversation.
> >
> > - ScarT
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
> >
> >
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://li

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Jed]

I like Valve but yeah, I've been vocal about my growing dislike of the
SDK for a while. Heck some numpty quotes me on the wiki page... :(

As a third-party SDK tool developer I've been smacking my head into
the desk with all the different versions for a while and it's a
nightmare keeping up with it. I'm getting to the point where I might
just stop because it feels like a colossal waste of my free time that
I could be using for something more rewarding.

As for the mod I'm working on - if I'd know using the Source SDK would
of been this much of a pain I'd of chosen something else from the
beginning. I reckon trying to keep up with SDK changes has put at
least 2 years onto our development time. So much for the "release soon
and release often" advice Valve pushed.

- Jed


On 28 October 2010 21:14, Tobias Kammersgaard
 wrote:
> Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired to
> focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need
> to build your games."
>
> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> From: "Mike Durand" 
> To: 
> Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
>
> Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
> introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
>
> I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
> directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
> responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
> use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with the
> help of other members of the community.
>
> My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
> build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
> but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions you
> have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
>
> So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
> really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
> are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
> be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems during
> testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be this
> week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the info
> on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange Box
> code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam in
> several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing updates
> to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over the
> years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source SDK.
>
> I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
> starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended the
> Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
>
> I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up lately,
> such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
>
> http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
> http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
>
> Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work with.
> Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love how
> they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile scripts
> directly from context menus.
>
> What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK or
> tools run before I can actually test whatever I've changed or made.
>
> I'm setting the bar low, and not expecting any response from anyone at
> Valve, that way I won't be more disappointed.
>
> I guess I just needed to get it off my chest.
>
>
> I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way, or
> want to share their opinion on this matter. For those that find it annoying
> to receive these kind of messages, feel free to mute the conversation.
>
> - ScarT
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
>
>

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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006

[Dmitry Barannik]

I have experience with both, Unreal and Source, engines, and I can, with
confidence, say that both has serious advantages and disadvantages.
I know that some studios refused Source, but I know studios that refused
Unreal.
It's just your choice, and if you can't create games, noone engine will not
help you...
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Marek Sieradzki]

My only (small) problem is that Valve is slow when you're trying to
release/update mod on Steam.

For motivated mod team UDK isn't much simpler/better than Source.

That halflife2.net guy should have someone check .mdmp.

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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Zach Kanzler]

That is how it starts. First, they become content with making money; next
thing you know Gaben stays true to his roots and VALVe becomes Microsoft.
Ignoring and neglecting your most fervent and backing customers/supporters
is a short-term solution that gets money and fuels that distaste shared by
all for Microsoft. I, and I presume a lot of modders, stuck by VALVe because
they not only cared about the games, but they went behind the scenes to make
sure modders and mod players were satisfied. It bred brand loyalty, a virtue
I believed VALVe treasured.

I will continue to buy VALVe games despite the current situation, but they
are steadily becoming reluctant purchases. Next L4D3 could be Vista.
On Oct 28, 2010 7:32 PM, "Keeper"  wrote:
> VALVe has changed quite a bit since that time. They do have a lot of
> distribution business, although I doubt that effects the developers that
> much. The one thing I think we can all agree on, when it comes to older
> games and the SDK side, they don't seem to have enough personnel dedicated
> to it. But why should they? It doesn't make much business sense. They
> don't charge for the dedicated servers, and they don't charge for the SDK.
> Why throw money at those things? The dedicated servers make more sense
> because at least they might bring some end user business in.
>
> I think there original intention was to keep up with the SDK and help
> promote new game ideas and maybe even bring revenue in. I think the
> distribution side won out and they just kind of dropped the ball on the
SDK
> model.
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Keeper]

VALVe has changed quite a bit since that time.  They do have a lot of
distribution business, although I doubt that effects the developers that
much.  The one thing I think we can all agree on, when it comes to older
games and the SDK side, they don't seem to have enough personnel dedicated
to it.  But why should they?  It doesn't make much business sense.  They
don't charge for the dedicated servers, and they don't charge for the SDK.
Why throw money at those things?   The dedicated servers make more sense
because at least they might bring some end user business in.

I think there original intention was to keep up with the SDK and help
promote new game ideas and maybe even bring revenue in.  I think the
distribution side won out and they just kind of dropped the ball on the SDK
model.
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Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Tom Edwards]

We can use threads: . 
The only thing missing in 2007 is the option to turn then on/off from 
the GUI, which is no biggie. But I had to dig around and write the 
documentation myself (the CWorkerThread bit is someone else's contribution).


I do sometimes wonder what Mike is up to. Is he really slaving away on 
SDK tools without any contact outside Valve?


On 28/10/2010 9:53, Cory de La Torre wrote:

I don't feel that the idea: "Not in valve's best intentions to care that
much about the SDK like Epic" is an excuse any longer. Regardless of the
fact that source is lagging behind in it's own way, I feel this wouldn't be
so much of a problem if there weren't so many fucking engine versions. I
don't wanted a better version of Orange box, I want a better version of
Source, one thats currently present in games like left 4 Dead2, or Portal 2,
AS, etc.

I feel that if valve we're to (if they really love engine versions) create
a separate version just for modding, they could dump a lot of new engine
features (minus gameplay and game specifics) into that branch, thus solving
the problem of using a shitty version of Source, and a different
version altogether.

On that note (and as far as I'm aware: Mike Durand is the *Only *guy up at
valve working on the SDK. If this is true, valve needs to seriously hire
some more people. I don't know what keeps Mike busy everyday, so much to the
point where most promised SDK updates get delayed months, but it needs to
change. My liking of modding on Source isn't wanning because of what the
engine can do, it's wanning because I'm not sure if I'm going to commit my
time and resources onto a project, for it only to be crippled by some update
for the SDK in the future. Even more so, for me to sit there and wait
an indefinite amount of time for a fix to come along.

Lastly I also feel the whole "you're getting this for free" isn't a valid
counter anymore for this subject. Free is an entirely different side when
Valve almost seems, and feels obligated to release a SDK with every game
they release. Sure, it's free, but thats only because it's
within their model of business. Even so, I don't think charging people for a
Level editor to make custom maps or what have you is really going to work
out. We need to look at the obvious situations that would arise had valve
sold the SDK to begin with. They continually highlight the availability of
tools for each title they release. My point being here: Promising tools only
works if the tools you release aren't going to require updates for them that
get delayed, or semi working tools, or features entirely missing.

Because there is no actual: "*Heres everything you can touch and can't*"
type of document, we've been left to figuring out the majority of this stuff
out on our own. That vague line between what the tools can even do to begin
with is reason enough to argue about them being broken.

Overall if people are getting tired with modding on Source, it's reasonable
now. People at Interlopers are, PP, Steam Forums, Mapcore. Source is getting
a lot of flak now, from many corners of the internet, and it's kind of sad.
I love source, but god damn do I hate the tools. Oh man speaking of which.
Remeber when Valve said multicore support was to ship with Half Life 2
Episode 2? Yeah that was back in 2007. It never *fully worked* until 2010.
Oh and thats right, we modders can't use it yet, because that promised 2009
mod support update was mentioned 5 months ago, and *still* hasn't happened.


On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Greg M.  wrote:


I can relate. I've been using the Source SDK for the past year on a school
project, and there have been some incredibly frustrating moments. There
have
been times where the project had to be put on hold because tools suddenly
stopped working after an update. I had to come up with a slightly
ridiculous
workflow to make some of the older scripts and plugins jive with newer
setups.

There have been good moments too, like when the load time for hammer was
suddenly dropped by a huge margin. And the release of their assets and rigs
from some of the "Meet The..." shorts. We are getting new tools and
features, and we haven't been forgotten. It's just that the sdk isn't the
*top* priority at the company. I think a lot of the angry news posts and
articles forget that. Their business is really to make games, not
user-friendly tools, and in the past couple years they have been really
busy.

Like a lot of things, it goes both ways. The source engine is pretty fun,
and I love being able to do the things I can do on it. And man, it's been
one heck of a learning experience. But for my next project, I'm considering
switching platforms for the reason you mentioned: lots of time spent
getting
the tools working. It cuts into my ability to make progress sometimes, and
that spare time is precious enough as it is.

-Greg




On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard<
tobias.kammersg

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Bob Somers]

They don't have time for the SDK Cory. They're too busy selling other
people's games. :P

--Bob




On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Cory de La Torre wrote:

> I don't feel that the idea: "Not in valve's best intentions to care that
> much about the SDK like Epic" is an excuse any longer. Regardless of the
> fact that source is lagging behind in it's own way, I feel this wouldn't be
> so much of a problem if there weren't so many fucking engine versions. I
> don't wanted a better version of Orange box, I want a better version of
> Source, one thats currently present in games like left 4 Dead2, or Portal
> 2,
> AS, etc.
>
> I feel that if valve we're to (if they really love engine versions) create
> a separate version just for modding, they could dump a lot of new engine
> features (minus gameplay and game specifics) into that branch, thus solving
> the problem of using a shitty version of Source, and a different
> version altogether.
>
> On that note (and as far as I'm aware: Mike Durand is the *Only *guy up at
> valve working on the SDK. If this is true, valve needs to seriously hire
> some more people. I don't know what keeps Mike busy everyday, so much to
> the
> point where most promised SDK updates get delayed months, but it needs to
> change. My liking of modding on Source isn't wanning because of what the
> engine can do, it's wanning because I'm not sure if I'm going to commit my
> time and resources onto a project, for it only to be crippled by some
> update
> for the SDK in the future. Even more so, for me to sit there and wait
> an indefinite amount of time for a fix to come along.
>
> Lastly I also feel the whole "you're getting this for free" isn't a valid
> counter anymore for this subject. Free is an entirely different side when
> Valve almost seems, and feels obligated to release a SDK with every game
> they release. Sure, it's free, but thats only because it's
> within their model of business. Even so, I don't think charging people for
> a
> Level editor to make custom maps or what have you is really going to work
> out. We need to look at the obvious situations that would arise had valve
> sold the SDK to begin with. They continually highlight the availability of
> tools for each title they release. My point being here: Promising tools
> only
> works if the tools you release aren't going to require updates for them
> that
> get delayed, or semi working tools, or features entirely missing.
>
> Because there is no actual: "*Heres everything you can touch and can't*"
> type of document, we've been left to figuring out the majority of this
> stuff
> out on our own. That vague line between what the tools can even do to begin
> with is reason enough to argue about them being broken.
>
> Overall if people are getting tired with modding on Source, it's reasonable
> now. People at Interlopers are, PP, Steam Forums, Mapcore. Source is
> getting
> a lot of flak now, from many corners of the internet, and it's kind of sad.
> I love source, but god damn do I hate the tools. Oh man speaking of which.
> Remeber when Valve said multicore support was to ship with Half Life 2
> Episode 2? Yeah that was back in 2007. It never *fully worked* until 2010.
> Oh and thats right, we modders can't use it yet, because that promised 2009
> mod support update was mentioned 5 months ago, and *still* hasn't happened.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Greg M.  wrote:
>
> > I can relate. I've been using the Source SDK for the past year on a
> school
> > project, and there have been some incredibly frustrating moments. There
> > have
> > been times where the project had to be put on hold because tools suddenly
> > stopped working after an update. I had to come up with a slightly
> > ridiculous
> > workflow to make some of the older scripts and plugins jive with newer
> > setups.
> >
> > There have been good moments too, like when the load time for hammer was
> > suddenly dropped by a huge margin. And the release of their assets and
> rigs
> > from some of the "Meet The..." shorts. We are getting new tools and
> > features, and we haven't been forgotten. It's just that the sdk isn't the
> > *top* priority at the company. I think a lot of the angry news posts and
> > articles forget that. Their business is really to make games, not
> > user-friendly tools, and in the past couple years they have been really
> > busy.
> >
> > Like a lot of things, it goes both ways. The source engine is pretty fun,
> > and I love being able to do the things I can do on it. And man, it's been
> > one heck of a learning experience. But for my next project, I'm
> considering
> > switching platforms for the reason you mentioned: lots of time spent
> > getting
> > the tools working. It cuts into my ability to make progress sometimes,
> and
> > that spare time is precious enough as it is.
> >
> > -Greg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard <
> > tobias.kammersga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Mike Durand intr

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Cory de La Torre]

I don't feel that the idea: "Not in valve's best intentions to care that
much about the SDK like Epic" is an excuse any longer. Regardless of the
fact that source is lagging behind in it's own way, I feel this wouldn't be
so much of a problem if there weren't so many fucking engine versions. I
don't wanted a better version of Orange box, I want a better version of
Source, one thats currently present in games like left 4 Dead2, or Portal 2,
AS, etc.

I feel that if valve we're to (if they really love engine versions) create
a separate version just for modding, they could dump a lot of new engine
features (minus gameplay and game specifics) into that branch, thus solving
the problem of using a shitty version of Source, and a different
version altogether.

On that note (and as far as I'm aware: Mike Durand is the *Only *guy up at
valve working on the SDK. If this is true, valve needs to seriously hire
some more people. I don't know what keeps Mike busy everyday, so much to the
point where most promised SDK updates get delayed months, but it needs to
change. My liking of modding on Source isn't wanning because of what the
engine can do, it's wanning because I'm not sure if I'm going to commit my
time and resources onto a project, for it only to be crippled by some update
for the SDK in the future. Even more so, for me to sit there and wait
an indefinite amount of time for a fix to come along.

Lastly I also feel the whole "you're getting this for free" isn't a valid
counter anymore for this subject. Free is an entirely different side when
Valve almost seems, and feels obligated to release a SDK with every game
they release. Sure, it's free, but thats only because it's
within their model of business. Even so, I don't think charging people for a
Level editor to make custom maps or what have you is really going to work
out. We need to look at the obvious situations that would arise had valve
sold the SDK to begin with. They continually highlight the availability of
tools for each title they release. My point being here: Promising tools only
works if the tools you release aren't going to require updates for them that
get delayed, or semi working tools, or features entirely missing.

Because there is no actual: "*Heres everything you can touch and can't*"
type of document, we've been left to figuring out the majority of this stuff
out on our own. That vague line between what the tools can even do to begin
with is reason enough to argue about them being broken.

Overall if people are getting tired with modding on Source, it's reasonable
now. People at Interlopers are, PP, Steam Forums, Mapcore. Source is getting
a lot of flak now, from many corners of the internet, and it's kind of sad.
I love source, but god damn do I hate the tools. Oh man speaking of which.
Remeber when Valve said multicore support was to ship with Half Life 2
Episode 2? Yeah that was back in 2007. It never *fully worked* until 2010.
Oh and thats right, we modders can't use it yet, because that promised 2009
mod support update was mentioned 5 months ago, and *still* hasn't happened.


On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Greg M.  wrote:

> I can relate. I've been using the Source SDK for the past year on a school
> project, and there have been some incredibly frustrating moments. There
> have
> been times where the project had to be put on hold because tools suddenly
> stopped working after an update. I had to come up with a slightly
> ridiculous
> workflow to make some of the older scripts and plugins jive with newer
> setups.
>
> There have been good moments too, like when the load time for hammer was
> suddenly dropped by a huge margin. And the release of their assets and rigs
> from some of the "Meet The..." shorts. We are getting new tools and
> features, and we haven't been forgotten. It's just that the sdk isn't the
> *top* priority at the company. I think a lot of the angry news posts and
> articles forget that. Their business is really to make games, not
> user-friendly tools, and in the past couple years they have been really
> busy.
>
> Like a lot of things, it goes both ways. The source engine is pretty fun,
> and I love being able to do the things I can do on it. And man, it's been
> one heck of a learning experience. But for my next project, I'm considering
> switching platforms for the reason you mentioned: lots of time spent
> getting
> the tools working. It cuts into my ability to make progress sometimes, and
> that spare time is precious enough as it is.
>
> -Greg
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard <
> tobias.kammersga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired
> to
> > focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> > I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they
> > need
> > to build your games."
> >
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> > From: "Mike Durand" 
> > To: 
> > Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> > Rep

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Bob Somers]

I dunno, man. If you're still modding for this engine you've got to be a
masochist.

--Bob




On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Greg M.  wrote:

> I can relate. I've been using the Source SDK for the past year on a school
> project, and there have been some incredibly frustrating moments. There
> have
> been times where the project had to be put on hold because tools suddenly
> stopped working after an update. I had to come up with a slightly
> ridiculous
> workflow to make some of the older scripts and plugins jive with newer
> setups.
>
> There have been good moments too, like when the load time for hammer was
> suddenly dropped by a huge margin. And the release of their assets and rigs
> from some of the "Meet The..." shorts. We are getting new tools and
> features, and we haven't been forgotten. It's just that the sdk isn't the
> *top* priority at the company. I think a lot of the angry news posts and
> articles forget that. Their business is really to make games, not
> user-friendly tools, and in the past couple years they have been really
> busy.
>
> Like a lot of things, it goes both ways. The source engine is pretty fun,
> and I love being able to do the things I can do on it. And man, it's been
> one heck of a learning experience. But for my next project, I'm considering
> switching platforms for the reason you mentioned: lots of time spent
> getting
> the tools working. It cuts into my ability to make progress sometimes, and
> that spare time is precious enough as it is.
>
> -Greg
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard <
> tobias.kammersga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired
> to
> > focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> > I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they
> > need
> > to build your games."
> >
> > Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> > From: "Mike Durand" 
> > To: 
> > Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> > Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
> >
> > Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
> > introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
> >
> > I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
> > directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
> > responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
> > use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with the
> > help of other members of the community.
> >
> > My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
> > build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
> > but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions you
> > have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
> >
> > So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
> > really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
> > are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
> > be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems during
> > testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be this
> > week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the info
> > on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> > That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange Box
> > code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam in
> > several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing
> > updates
> > to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over
> the
> > years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source
> > SDK.
> >
> > I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
> > starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended the
> > Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
> >
> > I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up
> lately,
> > such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
> >
> > http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
> >
> >
> http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
> >
> > Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work
> with.
> > Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love how
> > they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile
> > scripts
> > directly from context menus.
> >
> > What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK or
> > tools run before I can actually test whatever I've changed or made.
> >
> > I'm setting the bar low, and not expecting any response from anyone at
> > Valve, that way I won't be more disappointed.
> >
> > I guess I just needed to get it off my chest.
> >
> >
> > I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way,
> or
> > want to share their opinion on this matter. For t

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Greg M.]

I can relate. I've been using the Source SDK for the past year on a school
project, and there have been some incredibly frustrating moments. There have
been times where the project had to be put on hold because tools suddenly
stopped working after an update. I had to come up with a slightly ridiculous
workflow to make some of the older scripts and plugins jive with newer
setups.

There have been good moments too, like when the load time for hammer was
suddenly dropped by a huge margin. And the release of their assets and rigs
from some of the "Meet The..." shorts. We are getting new tools and
features, and we haven't been forgotten. It's just that the sdk isn't the
*top* priority at the company. I think a lot of the angry news posts and
articles forget that. Their business is really to make games, not
user-friendly tools, and in the past couple years they have been really
busy.

Like a lot of things, it goes both ways. The source engine is pretty fun,
and I love being able to do the things I can do on it. And man, it's been
one heck of a learning experience. But for my next project, I'm considering
switching platforms for the reason you mentioned: lots of time spent getting
the tools working. It cuts into my ability to make progress sometimes, and
that spare time is precious enough as it is.

-Greg




On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard <
tobias.kammersga...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired to
> focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they
> need
> to build your games."
>
> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> From: "Mike Durand" 
> To: 
> Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
>
> Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
> introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
>
> I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
> directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
> responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
> use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with the
> help of other members of the community.
>
> My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
> build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
> but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions you
> have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
>
> So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
> really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
> are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
> be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems during
> testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be this
> week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the info
> on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange Box
> code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam in
> several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing
> updates
> to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over the
> years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source
> SDK.
>
> I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
> starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended the
> Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
>
> I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up lately,
> such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
>
> http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
>
> http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
>
> Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work with.
> Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love how
> they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile
> scripts
> directly from context menus.
>
> What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK or
> tools run before I can actually test whatever I've changed or made.
>
> I'm setting the bar low, and not expecting any response from anyone at
> Valve, that way I won't be more disappointed.
>
> I guess I just needed to get it off my chest.
>
>
> I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way, or
> want to share their opinion on this matter. For those that find it annoying
> to receive these kind of messages, feel free to mute the conversation.
>
> - ScarT
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
>
>
>
___

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Garry Newman]

I'm in two minds.

Part of me thinks yeah, messing with this stuff was a lot easier when
it was just a zip file with the programs in it, without all the
bullshit of 4 different engine versions, without having to fight Steam
to make everything work.

But another part of me thinks that if people can mod GTA4 without any
SDK at all, all these configuration problems shouldn't REALLY stand in
the way.

It's easy to bitch and moan though, what would you do to fix it, to
improve the situation?

garry



On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:14 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard
 wrote:
> Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired to
> focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
> I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need
> to build your games."
>
> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
> From: "Mike Durand" 
> To: 
> Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
> Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com
>
> Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
> introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.
>
> I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
> directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
> responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
> use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with the
> help of other members of the community.
>
> My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
> build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
> but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions you
> have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.
>
> So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
> really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
> are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
> be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems during
> testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be this
> week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the info
> on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange Box
> code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam in
> several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing updates
> to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over the
> years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source SDK.
>
> I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
> starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended the
> Source SDK and the Source engine many times.
>
> I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up lately,
> such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.
>
> http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
> http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/
>
> Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work with.
> Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love how
> they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile scripts
> directly from context menus.
>
> What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK or
> tools run before I can actually test whatever I've changed or made.
>
> I'm setting the bar low, and not expecting any response from anyone at
> Valve, that way I won't be more disappointed.
>
> I guess I just needed to get it off my chest.
>
>
> I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way, or
> want to share their opinion on this matter. For those that find it annoying
> to receive these kind of messages, feel free to mute the conversation.
>
> - ScarT
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
>
>

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders

Re: [hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Jeffrey "botman" Broome]

Epic's great support of UDK is mainly because that's what Epic does.  
Epic is an engine company and that's mostly all they do.  They make an 
engine that's used by dozens of licensees. They release this same engine 
in a stripped down format called UDK and apply some license restrictions 
on what you can and can't do with it.  Epic makes money by supporting 
the UDK because it will be used by future licensees.  The more Epic 
supports UDK, the more licensees they get and the more money they make 
when the people license the engine.  This is what UDK is for.  It is to 
drive new business to Epic.


Valve, on the other hand, doesn't make a dime from the SDK.  You can 
argue that some mod team will create the next Counter-Strike and Valve 
will buy them out and make billions off of the game, but to my 
knowledge, that's only really happened once, with Counter-Strike (and 
maybe Garry's Mod).  :)


Valve releases SDK tools (however broken they may be) as sort of a bonus 
for customers who've bought their games and want to fiddle around with 
things themselves.  I'm sure that the tools Valve uses internally are a 
little better than what's released in the SDK, but I'm also sure that 
the internal tools contain licensed code from 3rd parties that can't be 
released to the public.  So mod people are stuck with either using 
Valve's SDK tools, or re-implementing the tools themselves.


Yeah, it sucks when you spend months and months re-implementing 
something or trying to figure out a work around for some problem, only 
to have Valve change things in the next engine release which breaks 
everything you've spent months on trying to fix.   I'm pretty sure Valve 
isn't intentionally trying to break your mod and that's just one of the 
things you have to deal with when you haven't licensed the engine source 
code.


Like I said above, Valve doesn't make anything from the SDK, so there's 
really not a whole lot of incentive for them to constantly run the SDK 
tools through their QA people so that they can find and fix bugs.  It's 
just not cost effective for them to do this.  If you were paying for the 
SDK, you could probably expect a little better support and quality 
control for it, but since it's free, you're actually getting more than 
you paid for.



Jeffrey "botman" Broome


On 10/28/2010 2:14 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard wrote:

I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way, or
want to share their opinion on this matter.


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[hlcoders] Remember June 2006?

[Tobias Kammersgaard]

Mike Durand introduced himself as a new employee at Valve, that's hired to
focus on the Source SDK, and updating it.
I quote "My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need
to build your games."

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 19:13:13 -0700
From: "Mike Durand" 
To: 
Subject: [hlcoders] Upcoming SDK Release
Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com

Given the recent traffic on the list, it seems like a good time to
introduce myself to everyone here, and talk about what I do at Valve.

I started work here in June and have been given the task of working
directly with the MOD community. This means that my primary
responsibilities are to package and release the SDK, make it easier to
use, and work with MOD makers on problems that they can't solve with the
help of other members of the community.

My full time job is to make sure that you have everything they need to
build your games. I'll be hanging out on this list, as well as the VDC,
but you can also feel free to contact me directly with any questions you
have at mdur...@valvesoftware.com.

So now that the introduction is out of the way here's the part that you
really care about: an SDK update is coming out very soon. Right now we
are testing it in-house and getting ready for its beta release. It will
be available later this week unless we encounter serious problems during
testing. I'll let people know either way, whether it is going to be this
week or next. Once I get all of the details together, I'll send the info
on what is coming in this SDK release to this list.

-Mike


That's four years ago. It pretty much went down hill since the Orange Box
code was released. I remember in 2003 when Gabe Newell promoted Steam in
several different interviews, saying how Steam would make publishing updates
to the end user way easier for them, yes its easier for them, but over the
years its just getting harder and harder for us working with the Source SDK.

I see a lot of people ditching the Source Engine over the UDK, and I'm
starting to see why. I'm a big fan of Valve games, and I've defended the
Source SDK and the Source engine many times.

I didn't really recognize too much in the articles that's popped up lately,
such as these, and honestly I was a little offended.

http://www.halflife2.net/2010/08/16/sdk-soul-destroying-kit/
http://www.planetphillip.com/posts/valve-you-should-be-ashamed-of-yourselves/

Yeah we're getting the SDK for free, and the tools are great to work with.
Except for one little thing. Most of them don't work properly. I love how
they're still using command line apps, so e.g. I can call my compile scripts
directly from context menus.

What I really miss is not having to spend 10 minutes on making the SDK or
tools run before I can actually test whatever I've changed or made.

I'm setting the bar low, and not expecting any response from anyone at
Valve, that way I won't be more disappointed.

I guess I just needed to get it off my chest.


I hope to hear from other people on this list, that feels the same way, or
want to share their opinion on this matter. For those that find it annoying
to receive these kind of messages, feel free to mute the conversation.

- ScarT
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