[LUTE] Re: My First Lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Bruno touches on a good point.  Some universities have early-music ensembles 
and own lutes.  Members of those ensembles are sometimes provided with 
university instruments on loan while they are active with the ensemble.  Here 
in central Ohio, e.g., Otterbein University occasionally assembles an 
early-music ensemble (including a lutenist).  Members of that ensemble are not 
always affiliated with the university, but are simply interested in learning 
more about playing early music.  Chicago is a populous place, Jim.  I wouldn't 
be surprised if a little effort asking questions among academic music programs 
turned up similar ensembles there.

Once you explore further, you'll discover (if you haven't already) that the 
lutes associated with the time of Dowland and the lutes associated with the 
time of Bach were very different instruments, the standard baroque instrument 
with a very different standard tuning.

Good luck out there, and enjoy some Giordano's pie for me!  ...but not too much.

Eugene



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bruno Fournier
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 3:06 PM
To: William Samson
Cc: Jim Ammeson; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My First Lute

   I would suggest you try and rent one from a local lutenist, or perhaps
   check with the university music faculty if there would be one available
   on loan.

   A

   regards

   A

   Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

   Montreal Canada

   A

   A

   On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 1:32 PM, William Samson
   <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

 A  A A difficult one, Jim. A Most lutes are built to order for a
 customer -
 A  A unfortunate because the customer doesn't get a chance to try it
 before
 A  A committing to buy it!
 A  A There are, however, some off-the-peg lutes available. A Closest
 to your
 A  A price range are the lutes built (in Pakistan??) for the Early
 Music
 A  A Shop in England
 A
 A [1][2]http://www.earlymusicshop.com/product.aspx/en-GB/1000655-ems
 -8-cours
 A  A e-renaissance-lute A  I have recently seen and tried one of
 these and
 A  A found it to play very well. A I don't know if similar lutes are
 A  A available in the US but would be surprised if they aren't.
 A  A The other possibility is the second-hand market, but you're in
 the lap
 A  A of the gods, there.
 A  A Good luck in your quest!
 A  A Bill
 A  A From: Jim Ammeson <[3]jimastr...@yahoo.com>
 A  A To: "[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 A  A Sent: Tuesday, 31 July 2012, 17:31
 A  A Subject: [LUTE] My First Lute

   A  A  A So, I've been considering buying a lute for a few years now,
   but I've
   A  A  A had trouble finding places I can really try playing one or many
   A  A people
   A  A  A I can talk to about them. A (Lutes are a bit of a niche thing,
   I
   A  A know.)
   A  A  A A lutenist at the local renaissance faire suggested this list,
   so I
   A  A  A thought I'd post.
   A  A  A So, I'll just explain my situation, right now:
   A  A  A I've been playing classical guitar for about 5 years. A I play
   lots of
   A  A  A baroque and renaissance music, love the stuff. A I'd really
   like to
   A  A try
   A  A  A playing a lute or two before deciding if I want to make the
   A  A investment
   A  A  A in buying one. A As of right now, I don't have much over $500
   to spend
   A  A  A (I know that's not probably enough for one that's really worth
   A  A having,
   A  A  A unless I get a good price on a used one or something), but I'm
   A  A  A *willing* to spend more, just don't have it *now*. A (I'm a
   college
   A  A  A student, nuff said?)
   A  A  A I live in the Chicago area, and have asked around if there's
   anyplace
   A  A  A in the area whatsoever that makes lutes, and have tried looking
   A  A online,
   A  A  A but haven't found anything. A I've asked around at renaissance
   faires,
   A  A  A as well, and, again, just was directed here by one lutenist.
   A  A  A So, any advice as to what a beginning lutenist should do?
   A Where to
   A  A go
   A  A  A to try a lute for the first time and see if it is really
   something
   A  A for
   A  A  A him? A I've been thinking an 8 course lute would be good for
   the
   A  A pieces
   A  A  A I play to play...Bach and Dowland and the like? A Any general
   advice
   A  A is
   A  A  A also appreciated.
   A  A  A -Jim
   A  A  A --
   A  A To get on or off this list see list information at

 A  A [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 A  A --
 References
 A  A 1.
 [7]http://www.earlymusicshop.com/product.aspx/en-GB/1000655-ems-8-co
 urse-renaissance-lute
 A  A 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

   A

   Bruno Cognyl-Fournier

   A

   [9]www.estavel.org

   A

   --

References

   1. mailto:willsam..

[LUTE] Re: My First Lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Depends upon the species, Craig.

http://www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/CITES/CITES_home.html
http://www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/CITES/pdf/Cites_eng.pdf
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php (true rosewoods are of the genus 
Dalbergia)

Only Dalbergia nigra is afforded protection under appendix I (i.e., "species 
threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted 
only in exceptional circumstances.").  Any other Dalbergia spp. listed fall 
under appendix III (i.e., "species that are protected in at least one country, 
which has asked other CITES Parties for assistance in controlling the trade" 
or, essentially, much easier to trade depending upon the documented place of 
origin).

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
co...@medievalist.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 1:31 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My First Lute

Howard wrote:
>
>Apart from the obvious caveats:
>
>Doesn't "travel lute" mean flat back?

Yes, I agree. The nomenclature they use seems a bit ignorant, not meant in the 
pejorative. I think I saw an 8 course "descant" lute too by them.

>And importing rosewood may be a problem because most varieties are endangered.

Is there a moratorium or other proscription in the US on importing rosewood? I 
wasn't aware if there is. Please let me know as I have an opportunity to get 
some and don't want to break any laws I'm ignorant of. Thank you.

Regards,
Craig





To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: My First Lute

[Braig, Eugene]

PS: Dalbergia nigra is that commonly referred to as Brazilian rosewood.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: Braig, Eugene 
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 2:09 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: My First Lute

Depends upon the species, Craig.

http://www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/CITES/CITES_home.html
http://www.fws.gov/international/DMA_DSA/CITES/pdf/Cites_eng.pdf
http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php (true rosewoods are of the genus 
Dalbergia)

Only Dalbergia nigra is afforded protection under appendix I (i.e., "species 
threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted 
only in exceptional circumstances.").  Any other Dalbergia spp. listed fall 
under appendix III (i.e., "species that are protected in at least one country, 
which has asked other CITES Parties for assistance in controlling the trade" 
or, essentially, much easier to trade depending upon the documented place of 
origin).

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
co...@medievalist.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 1:31 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: My First Lute

Howard wrote:
>
>Apart from the obvious caveats:
>
>Doesn't "travel lute" mean flat back?

Yes, I agree. The nomenclature they use seems a bit ignorant, not meant in the 
pejorative. I think I saw an 8 course "descant" lute too by them.

>And importing rosewood may be a problem because most varieties are endangered.

Is there a moratorium or other proscription in the US on importing rosewood? I 
wasn't aware if there is. Please let me know as I have an opportunity to get 
some and don't want to break any laws I'm ignorant of. Thank you.

Regards,
Craig





To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Off topic : Early guitars

[Braig, Eugene]

Some titles and descriptions are truly tantalizing.  However, I find it 
extremely frustrating in being so teased with no way to access more detailed 
images directly.  I'm sincerely tempted to write Erik-Pierre regarding my vrais 
intérêt.

There used to be a fine listserv for 19th-c. guitar discussion under the 
Dartmouth umbrella.  It ran into some competition from a handful of other lists 
that were previously active, but seem to be less so now.  I wonder if it's time 
to resurrect that list.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Valéry Sauvage
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:41 AM
To: le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr; 'Lute Net'
Subject: [LUTE] Off topic : Early guitars

Une très importante collection de guitares historiques est mise en vente par 
Erik Pierre Hofmann. Une majorité de guitares romantiques mais aussi quelques 
guitares baroques... 
Certaines restaurées, d'autres à restaurer, d'autres pour la vitrine. Des 
grands noms comme Lacote, Laprevotte, Stauffer...
A voir ici :
http://www.fine-antique-and-classical-guitars.com/instruments.html
Contacter Erik Pierre Hofmann si vraiment intéressés.

A very important collection of early guitars is for sale now. Some restored and 
playable, some for exhibition, some for needs work.
See link above for the list.
Details may be asked from Erik-Pierre Hofmann if truly interested...


Valéry






To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Off topic : Early guitars

[Braig, Eugene]

If you're not responding in plain text format, it's quite likely whatever 
format you are using materializes as odd characters when converted to plain 
text.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Stetson
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 10:56 AM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Off topic : Early guitars

   I'm also wondering where the random capital "A"'s are coming from.  Am
   I doing something wrong format-wise?

   On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Christopher Stetson
   <[1]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, extremely tantalizing, but I'veA had my GAS under control
 for
awhile now, andA can't afford to be truly interested.A
A
I'd definitely be onboard for a 19th c. guitar forum, though.A

  Especially since the 19th is now officially 2 centuries ago.
  A
  Chris.

    On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Braig, Eugene
 <[1][2]brai...@osu.edu>
wrote:
  Some titles and descriptions are truly tantalizing. A However,
 I

find it extremely frustrating in being so teased with no way to

  access more detailed images directly. A I'm sincerely tempted
 to
  write Erik-Pierre regarding my vrais intA(c)rAA-ot.

There used to be a fine listserv for 19th-c. guitar discussion
   under

  the Dartmouth umbrella. A It ran into some competition from a

handful of other lists that were previously active, but seem to be

  less so now. A I wonder if it's time to resurrect that list.
  Best,
  Eugene

-Original Message-
From: [2][3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3][4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of ValA(c)ry
   Sauvage
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:41 AM

To: [4][5]le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr; 'Lute Net'
Subject: [LUTE] Off topic : Early guitars

Une trAes importante collection de guitares historiques est mise
   en
vente par Erik Pierre Hofmann. Une majoritA(c) de guitares
romantiques mais aussi quelques guitares baroques...

Certaines restaurA(c)es, d'autres Ae... restaurer, d'autres pour
 la

  vitrine. Des grands noms comme Lacote, Laprevotte, Stauffer...
  A voir ici :


 [5][6]http://www.fine-antique-and-classical-guitars.com/instruments.
 html
Contacter Erik Pierre Hofmann si vraiment intA(c)ressA(c)s.

  A very important collection of early guitars is for sale now. Some
  restored and playable, some for exhibition, some for needs work.
  See link above for the list.
  Details may be asked from Erik-Pierre Hofmann if truly interested...

ValA(c)ry

  To get on or off this list see list information at

[6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
 References
1. mailto:[8]brai...@osu.edu
2. mailto:[9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. mailto:[10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[11]le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr
5.
 [12]http://www.fine-antique-and-classical-guitars.com/instruments.ht
 ml
6. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:christophertstet...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr
   6. http://www.fine-antique-and-classical-guitars.com/instruments.html
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   9. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  11. mailto:le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr
  12. http://www.fine-antique-and-classical-guitars.com/instruments.html
  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

The alternate theory of "guitar" and related words in other languages being 
derived from Persian roots "char-tar" (i.e., "four string") used to get some 
traffic.  Is that term still discussed/debated with any frequency?  If not, why 
not?

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:08 AM
To: Bruno Correia; r.turov...@gmail.com
Cc: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


   Actually it seems more likely that both instruments were named after
   the ancient 'kithara' used by classical Greek poets to accompany their
   recitations and, like so much renaissance thinking, seems to have been
   a concious attempt to recapture something of the glories (as they saw
   it) of the ancient world.

   See Bob Spencer's article in Early Music  Oct 1976.

   MH
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, r.turov...@gmail.com 
   wrote:

 From: r.turov...@gmail.com 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: "Bruno Correia" 
 Cc: "List LUTELIST" 
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 2:59

   The Grove chitarrone info is outdated.
   It is a large CHITARRA ITALIANA.
   See Renato Meucci's article apropos.
   RT
   On 10/16/2012 9:11 PM, Bruno Correia wrote:
   > The Grove Dictionaire says about the chitarrone:
   >
   >
   >
   > "The type of lute denoted by this humanist, classicizing term
   > (chitarrone means, literally, a large kithara) was associated
   > particularly with Jacopo Peri, Giulio Caccini and the other early
   > writers of monody from the 1590s until about 1630."
   >
   > Has anybody challenged this etymology? Wouldn't be safe to say it
   > simply derived from the chitarra (guitar)? Is was developed in
   the
   > first place to acompany, playing chordally from a contino line,
   just as
   > the 5 course guitar would do, though without the struming
   technique.
   > The solo repertoire that came later looks very close to the
   guitar
   > writing: chords a little counterpoint, arpeggios, slurs,
   campanellas
   > efect e so on...
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > --
   >
   > Bruno Correia
   >
   >
   >
   > Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   >
   > historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   >
   > Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   >
   > Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.
   >
   > --
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

I have to agree.  And myriad organological relationships with different facet, 
functions, and potentially involving diverse inspiration/influence don't always 
led themselves to clear distinction at all other than basic description of 
vibrating mechanism.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
r.turov...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:35 PM
To: Monica Hall
Cc: WALSH STUART; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Monica, it is in human nature to yearn for clear distinctions between things.
It just doesn't work that way in real life.
RT


On 10/17/2012 3:29 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
> Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.   
> When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a large 
> member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It depends 
> what you mean by separate traditions...
>
> Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
>
>>   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement with
>>   Meucci?
>>   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you. As
>>   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
>>   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone (he
>>   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or 
>> gittern/mandore).
>>   Stuart
>>
>>   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi <[1]tio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
>> Chitarrone here:
>> [2]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
>> The first chapter is about ethimology.
>> Diego
>>
>>   >
>>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>>
>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>   --
>>
>> References
>>
>>   1. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
>>   2. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
>>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

   Too late...


   Eugene


   From: WALSH STUART [mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com]
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 3:54 PM
   To: r.turov...@gmail.com
   Cc: Diego Cantalupi; Braig, Eugene; List LUTELIST
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


   Don't get (biologist) Eugene going on 'family' metaphors!
   (Wittgenstein's 'family resemblance', might  fit the bill)
   Stuart

   On 17 October 2012 20:25, [1]r.turov...@gmail.com
   <[2]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:

   Mandora/Gallichon is part of the same family.
   RT

   On 10/17/2012 3:19 PM, WALSH STUART wrote:

   Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
   with
   Meucci?
   Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from you.
   As
   I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a large
   lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
   (he
   is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
   gittern/mandore).
   Stuart
   On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi <[1][3]tio...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
 If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
 Chitarrone here:
 [2][4]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
 The first chapter is about ethimology.
 Diego
   >

   To get on or off this list see list information at

   [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 References

   1. mailto:[6]tio...@gmail.com
   2. [7]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



   --

References

   1. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   4. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   7. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

..mandolins in fifth-tunings, some wire-strung English guittars, etc...  
Although I suppose one could argue they all bear some true lute 
"relationships," at least structurally.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
r.turov...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:10 PM
To: Monica Hall
Cc: WALSH STUART; Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

Mandoras/gallichons, Italian Guitars, Chitarroni, Wandevogellauten, Ukrainian 
Banduras, Citterns with oval bodies etc, etc
RT



On 10/17/2012 4:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote:
> Such as ?   .
>
>
>
> Monica
>
> - Original Message -
>
> From: [1]WALSH STUART
>
> To: [2]Monica Hall
>
> Cc: [3]Lutelist
>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
>
>   Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
>   Stuart
>
> On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>   Well - what is the difference between a lute and a gittern/mandore.
> When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
>   large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.   It
>   depends what you mean by separate traditions...
>   Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
>
> Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
>   with
> Meucci?
> Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
>   you. As
> I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
>   large
> lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The chitarrone
>   (he
> is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
>   gittern/mandore).
> Stuart
> On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi <[1][5]tio...@gmail.com>
>   wrote:
>   If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
>   Chitarrone here:
>   [2][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
>   The first chapter is about ethimology.
>   Diego
> >
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [3][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
>   References
> 1. mailto:[8]tio...@gmail.com
> 2. [9]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
> 3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
> 6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
> 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 8. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
> 9. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
>10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the neat 
features of biological inheritance is that all things come from similar 
parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious whims of human 
creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with many structurally 
different things being tuned identically and many functionally different things 
with similar construction carrying the name.  This case is not unique.

General "taxonomy" of musical instruments has been around for a great long time 
(as "organology"), there are even whole scholarly societies committed to it 
(e.g., http://www.galpinsociety.org/).  However, such systems require a great 
many more judgment calls by their developers than biological systematics.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
William Samson
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:41 PM
To: Lex van Sante; lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

   I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if it's
   feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
   particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
   that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
   different kinds of orchid, for example?

   I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too old
   to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.

   Bill
   From: Lex van Sante 
   To: lute mailing list list 
   Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
   Lex
   Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
   >  Such as ?  .
   >
   >
   >
   >  Monica
   >
   >  - Original Message -
   >
   >  From: [1]WALSH STUART
   >
   >  To: [2]Monica Hall
   >
   >  Cc: [3]Lutelist
   >
   >  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
   >
   >  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
   >
   >Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
   >Stuart
   >
   >  On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall <[4][1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   wrote:
   >
   >Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
   gittern/mandore.
   >  When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
   >large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
   It
   >depends what you mean by separate traditions...
   >Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
   >
   >  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Are you in agreement
   >with
   >  Meucci?
   >  Monica, the only things I know about Meucci's article are from
   >you. As
   >  I understand it, Meucci isn't saying that the chitarrone is a
   >large
   >  lute. The lute has its own, separate,  traditions. The
   chitarrone
   >(he
   >  is saying, I think) is a large (massive!) gittern (or
   >gittern/mandore).
   >  Stuart
   >  On 17 October 2012 18:34, Diego Cantalupi
   <[1][5][2]tio...@gmail.com>
   >wrote:
   >If you can read Italian, you can find my dissertation about
   >Chitarrone here:
   >[2][6][3]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   >The first chapter is about ethimology.
   >Diego
   >>
   >  To get on or off this list see list information at
   >
   [3][7][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >  --
   >References
   >  1. mailto:[8][5]tio...@gmail.com
   >  2. [9][6]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   >  3. [10][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >  --
   >
   > References
   >
   >  1. mailto:[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   >  2. mailto:[9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   >  3. mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >  4. mailto:[11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   >  5. mailto:[12]tio...@gmail.com
   >  6. [13]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   >  7. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >  8. mailto:[15]tio...@gmail.com
   >  9. [16]http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   >  10. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   9. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  11. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  12. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  13. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  15. mailto:tio...@gmail.com
  16. http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf
  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

I actually believe those who think about such stuff are usually operating under 
"some form of generally acceptable classification system for 'lutes'," either 
as written in some source or another or devised in their own heads based upon 
discussions like these.  Organology certainly hasn't shied from lute kin.

It's the specific notion of a biological-style key that I think would likely 
prove more cumbersome than practical if including substantial detail.  I 
suspect most who want to differentiate colascione from mandora, e.g., probably 
already have a decent sense of how to do so.  I think a key could be 
constructed--I don't know, maybe already has been--but I suspect a key in this 
domain would be most useful if very simplified and designed with the generally 
uninitiated in mind.  Even among field biologists, once you know how to 
identify whatever you happen to be observing, you don't bother using keys any 
longer.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:57 AM
To: lute mailing list list; Braig, Eugene
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone


   Dear Eugene,

   I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
   classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
   prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
   presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been revised
   since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
   early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field: so the
   same for present day organological research.

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 17/10/12, Braig, Eugene  wrote:

 From: Braig, Eugene 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
 To: "lute mailing list list" 
 Date: Wednesday, 17 October, 2012, 22:15

   I don't think a dichotomous key would work.  As alluded, one of the
   neat features of biological inheritance is that all things come from
   similar parental things.  Not so when addressing the capricious whims
   of human creativity.  One of my favorite examples is mandolins, with
   many structurally different things being tuned identically and many
   functionally different things with similar construction carrying the
   name.  This case is not unique.
   General "taxonomy" of musical instruments has been around for a great
   long time (as "organology"), there are even whole scholarly societies
   committed to it (e.g., [1]http://www.galpinsociety.org/).  However,
   such systems require a great many more judgment calls by their
   developers than biological systematics.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of William Samson
   Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 4:41 PM
   To: Lex van Sante; lute mailing list list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  I've been watching this discussion with interest and I wonder if
   it's
  feasible to produce a taxonomy of plucked stringed instruments?  In
  particular, is it possible to construct a 'key' with questions
  that distinguish one instrument from another, as botanists do with
  different kinds of orchid, for example?
  I simply throw this in as an idea - I'm NOT volunteering - I'm too
   old
  to dodge the huge amounts of flak that would result.
  Bill
  From: Lex van Sante <[4]lvansa...@gmail.com>
  To: lute mailing list list <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 21:17
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  Rebec and rebab spring to mind.
  Lex
  Op 17 okt 2012, om 22:05 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven:
  >  Such as ?  .
  >
  >
  >
  >  Monica
  >
  >  - Original Message -
  >
  >  From: [1]WALSH STUART
  >
  >  To: [2]Monica Hall
  >
  >  Cc: [3]Lutelist
  >
  >  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 8:56 PM
  >
  >  Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
  >
  >Other instruments than lutes have 'lute-shaped' bodies...
  >Stuart
  >
  >  On 17 October 2012 20:29, Monica Hall
   <[4][1][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
  wrote:
  >
  >Well - what is the difference between a lute and a
  gittern/mandore.
  >  When is a lute not a lute? Chitarrone as I understand it is a
  >large member of the lute family i.e. it has a lute shaped body.
  It
  >depends what you mean by separate traditions...
  >Monica...getting more confused by the minute.
  >
  >  Diego, unfortunately I cannot read Italian. Ar

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

..And regarding organology, there often isn't a "true evolutionary lineage" in 
the sense of a single line.  Borrowing from several working instrument types to 
arrive at something new and altogether different occurs with frequency (again, 
the early Neapolitan mandolin, as a relatively recent invention, is an 
excellent and relatively well-documented example).  The bouzouki you mention 
below, Mark, is another good one, built to a saz-like structural paradigm 
before the wide popularity of the mandolin in the 19th-c., but most often to a 
generally mandolin-like one after.  Chimeras don't exist in a zoological world 
subject to the laws that govern inheritance and evolution; they're relatively 
common to musical instrument types.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Mark Warren
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:55 PM
To: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

One problem with borrowing from biological taxonomy in determining 
relationships between lute-like instruments is the possibility of coincidental 
similarities. In biology, "convergent evolution" is common: 
organisms that evolve in parallel by responding to similar habitats, so that 
their shapes or functions end up resembling each other even though they're not 
directly related species (birds and bats, for example, or fishes and whales). 
Those apparent similarities can be distinguished by genetics and through the 
fossil record; establishing a true evolutionary lineage may be much harder to 
do with apparently similar musical instruments that emerged in widely separated 
cultures.

For instance, is the bouzouki a member of the European lute family, based 
solely on the shape of its body and its country of origin? Is the Chinese pipa 
related to the Persian oud, or is it in an entirely different lineage that 
'converged' to resemble other lute-like instruments around the world? They're 
all plucked cordophones with resonating soundboards and necks, for sure, but 
attempting a taxonomy much beyond that level of generality may be fraught with 
peril...


On 10/18/2012 11:49 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
> Until musical instruments can mate & propagate on their own, the 
> biological systems for classification become a strained analogy that 
> must, at some point, break down. I'm still waiting for my 8 course 
> tenor lute and my 13 course Baroque lute to get together some night 
> and bless our happy household with a baby 10 course lute some fine 
> morning.
>
> (And the lauto? And what about the flat-backed Angelique by Gibson?)
>
> -This could spiral out of control, like Moondog's song about human 
> rights. "Enough about human rights! What about whale rights? What 
> about worm rights? What about germ rights?" etc, etc.
>
> On 10/18/2012 7:32 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
>> I actually believe those who think about such stuff are usually 
>> operating under "some form of generally acceptable classification 
>> system for 'lutes'," either as written in some source or another or 
>> devised in their own heads based upon discussions like these.
>> Organology certainly hasn't shied from lute kin.
>>
>> It's the specific notion of a biological-style key that I think would 
>> likely prove more cumbersome than practical if including substantial 
>> detail.  I suspect most who want to differentiate colascione from 
>> mandora, e.g., probably already have a decent sense of how to do so.
>> I think a key could be constructed--I don't know, maybe already has 
>> been--but I suspect a key in this domain would be most useful if very 
>> simplified and designed with the generally uninitiated in mind.  Even 
>> among field biologists, once you know how to identify whatever you 
>> happen to be observing, you don't bother using keys any longer.
>>
>> Best,
>> Eugene
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
>> Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:57 AM
>> To: lute mailing list list; Braig, Eugene
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
>>
>>
>> Dear Eugene,
>>
>> I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
>> classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
>> prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
>> presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been 
>> revised
>> since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
>> early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field:

[LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

[Braig, Eugene]

.And regarding organology, there often isn't a "true evolutionary lineage" in 
the sense of a single line.  Borrowing from several working instrument types to 
arrive at something new and altogether different occurs with frequency (again, 
the early Neapolitan mandolin, as a relatively recent invention, is an 
excellent and relatively well-documented example).  The bouzouki you mention 
below, Mark, is another good one, built to a saz-like structural paradigm 
before the wide popularity of the mandolin in the 19th-c., but most often to a 
generally mandolin-like one after.  Chimeras don't exist in a zoological world 
subject to the laws that govern inheritance and evolution; they're relatively 
common to musical instrument types.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Mark Warren
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:55 PM
To: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone

One problem with borrowing from biological taxonomy in determining 
relationships between lute-like instruments is the possibility of coincidental 
similarities. In biology, "convergent evolution" is common: 
organisms that evolve in parallel by responding to similar habitats, so that 
their shapes or functions end up resembling each other even though they're not 
directly related species (birds and bats, for example, or fishes and whales). 
Those apparent similarities can be distinguished by genetics and through the 
fossil record; establishing a true evolutionary lineage may be much harder to 
do with apparently similar musical instruments that emerged in widely separated 
cultures.

For instance, is the bouzouki a member of the European lute family, based 
solely on the shape of its body and its country of origin? Is the Chinese pipa 
related to the Persian oud, or is it in an entirely different lineage that 
'converged' to resemble other lute-like instruments around the world? They're 
all plucked cordophones with resonating soundboards and necks, for sure, but 
attempting a taxonomy much beyond that level of generality may be fraught with 
peril...


On 10/18/2012 11:49 AM, Dan Winheld wrote:
> Until musical instruments can mate & propagate on their own, the 
> biological systems for classification become a strained analogy that 
> must, at some point, break down. I'm still waiting for my 8 course 
> tenor lute and my 13 course Baroque lute to get together some night 
> and bless our happy household with a baby 10 course lute some fine 
> morning.
>
> (And the lauto? And what about the flat-backed Angelique by Gibson?)
>
> -This could spiral out of control, like Moondog's song about human 
> rights. "Enough about human rights! What about whale rights? What 
> about worm rights? What about germ rights?" etc, etc.
>
> On 10/18/2012 7:32 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
>> I actually believe those who think about such stuff are usually 
>> operating under "some form of generally acceptable classification 
>> system for 'lutes'," either as written in some source or another or 
>> devised in their own heads based upon discussions like these.
>> Organology certainly hasn't shied from lute kin.
>>
>> It's the specific notion of a biological-style key that I think would 
>> likely prove more cumbersome than practical if including substantial 
>> detail.  I suspect most who want to differentiate colascione from 
>> mandora, e.g., probably already have a decent sense of how to do so.
>> I think a key could be constructed--I don't know, maybe already has 
>> been--but I suspect a key in this domain would be most useful if very 
>> simplified and designed with the generally uninitiated in mind.  Even 
>> among field biologists, once you know how to identify whatever you 
>> happen to be observing, you don't bother using keys any longer.
>>
>> Best,
>> Eugene
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
>> Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:57 AM
>> To: lute mailing list list; Braig, Eugene
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chitarrone
>>
>>
>> Dear Eugene,
>>
>> I agree that to produce some form of generally acceptable
>> classification system for 'lutes' would be difficult and even then
>> prone to error/interpretations - but surely we shouldn't not try? I
>> presume, for example, Mendel's inheritance findings have been 
>> revised
>> since his day but his contribution shouldn't be ignored. And these
>> early attempts surely allowed further advances in the field:

[LUTE] Re: Sor Album

[Braig, Eugene]

Right up my alley...  What's to be on volume two?  Thanks, Rob!

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Rob MacKillop
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:58 AM
To: Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Sor Album

   Off Topic, I'm afraid, but played with gut and silk strings, no nails,
   etc...

   I'm delighted to announce my new album:

Fernando Sor: The Art Of The 19th-Century Guitar, Volume 1

   This recording is devoted to 32 of my favourite studies by this
   towering genius of the early 19th-century classical guitar. It is a
   download-only album, available from iTunes, Amazon and CD Baby:

   [1]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robmackillop3 - where you can
   hear excerpts.

   I use a modern copy of the type of guitar favoured by Sor, a Lacote by
   Michael Nalysnyk of[2]www.historicalguitars.co.uk, using gut and silk
   strings by Aquila-Corde, specially formulated for the early
   19th-century repertoire.

   I have also tried to get as close as possible to the technique outlined
   by Sor in his Method.

   The album is set at a low price, and once downloaded can be played on
   your computer, iPad, phone, or burned to a CD. The CD Baby page
   includes Programme Notes.

   Please Like, Share, and Tweet about!

   --

References

   1. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robmackillop3
   2. http://www.historicalguitars.co.uk/


To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Sor Album

[Braig, Eugene]

   With bated breath...


   Eugene


   From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com]
   Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:12 PM
   To: Braig, Eugene
   Cc: Lute
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Sor Album


   Thanks, Eugene, Volume 2? I'm working on it slowly - longer pieces, for
   sure.


   Cheers,


   Rob


   On 13 November 2012 17:29, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> wrote:

   Right up my alley...  What's to be on volume two?  Thanks, Rob!
   Eugene

   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Rob MacKillop
   Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:58 AM
   To: Lute
   Subject: [LUTE] Sor Album
  Off Topic, I'm afraid, but played with gut and silk strings, no
   nails,
  etc...
  I'm delighted to announce my new album:
   Fernando Sor: The Art Of The 19th-Century Guitar, Volume 1
  This recording is devoted to 32 of my favourite studies by this
  towering genius of the early 19th-century classical guitar. It is a
  download-only album, available from iTunes, Amazon and CD Baby:
  [1][4]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robmackillop3 - where you can
  hear excerpts.
  I use a modern copy of the type of guitar favoured by Sor, a Lacote
   by
  Michael Nalysnyk of[2][5]www.historicalguitars.co.uk, using gut and
   silk
  strings by Aquila-Corde, specially formulated for the early
  19th-century repertoire.
  I have also tried to get as close as possible to the technique
   outlined
  by Sor in his Method.
  The album is set at a low price, and once downloaded can be played
   on
  your computer, iPad, phone, or burned to a CD. The CD Baby page
  includes Programme Notes.
  Please Like, Share, and Tweet about!
  --
   References
  1. [6]http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robmackillop3
  2. [7]http://www.historicalguitars.co.uk/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   --

References

   1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robmackillop3
   5. http://www.historicalguitars.co.uk/
   6. http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robmackillop3
   7. http://www.historicalguitars.co.uk/
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] OT: Punteado y "Landfill Harmonic"

[Braig, Eugene]

Just because the "Landfill Harmonic" got some recent attention on these lists:

Berta Rojas circulated a video of herself playing Barrios' "Villancico" with 
the Cateura Recycled Orchestra on Christmas.  Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCiN17lwxno


Eugene




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandolin cases

[Braig, Eugene]

Good luck!  Mine came to me from a maker in Brazil who worked with Luciano 
Faria before Faria became scarce.  The case is very well made, but Luciano told 
me the maker only speaks Portuguese.  I'll look for info on the maker as soon 
as I can break for home from the day-job office.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
David Tayler
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 6:04 PM
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin cases

I'm sure this has been asked before, but does anyone have a recommendation for 
a baroque mandolin case?
TIA
David T



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy

[Braig, Eugene]

I certainly can't speak for Martyn, but don't detect any suppositions of 
"self-evident" terminology in what he's written to this thread.  I can speak 
for me, and what Martyn has written does speak to my own skepticism.  I 
perceive a great difference between "In spite of Meucci's article, I'm not 
certain what 'chitarra' may refer to in every instance," and "Because I'm not 
certain of the universal meaning of 'chitarra' in this context, it must 
sometimes refer to a waisted instrument."  The impression I've always taken 
from this thread is the former concept, and it's one I personally like.  I 
don't mind occasional admission to not knowing or not having come to a 
conclusion.  As a matter of fact, I ordinarily prefer that state of knowledge.  
It's much more plastic if/when contrary evidence ever does arise.

Carry on.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Monica Hall
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:30 AM
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy

Contrary to what you suggest - we do know that "chitarriglia" is an Italian 
term for a small guitar.  I understand that it is an Italianized version of the 
Spanish diminutive - guitarrilla.  It is used to refer to the instrument in 
5-course guitar books fairly indiscrimately - i.e. without necessarily implying 
a smaller instrument than usual.  Pesori and Granata come to mind.

I am objecting to the translation of "chitarra" as "guitar" in the passage
which you quote.   I wouldn't translate the title as it appears on the title
page at all. If I was translating the introduction on p.5 I would leave the 
terms "chitarriglia" and "chitarra" untranslated with a note explaining 
possible interpretations of them.  It is axiomatic that when translating terms 
like these that you try to find definitions of them in dictionaries of the 
period.

I have to say that when I saw Valdambrini's book for the first time I did 
wonder whether the description of the instrument on the title page as "chitarra 
a cinque ordini" indicated that it was a different instrument especially in 
view of the fact that he clearly says that  that it has a re-entrant tuning.  
However the illustration on the title page of Book 1 shows a cherub playing a 
5-course guitar with the courses and peg holes clearly visible.  The music and 
the notation is in line with other collections of music for 5-course guitar.  
It seems fairly certain that it is for 5-course guitar.
Asioli's books were printed in the 1670s by which time it seems that it was no 
longer necessary  to include the qualifier "spagnola".

What puzzles me is the way you seem to assume that it is self evident that the 
term "chitarra" refers to  a 4-course guitar when actually you have never put 
forward any positive evidence to support your view.
As Stuart pointed out we tend to look at things from an English point of view 
and needless to say everyone from Alexander Bellow to James Tyler and your good 
self, taking in Frederick Grunfeld and Harvey Turnbull and a few others en 
route have simply assumed that anything called a chitarra or guitarra must be a 
figure of 8 shaped guitar.

I am surprised that you appear to be dismissing Meucci's article as "nothing 
more than ad hoc speculation" just because it seems to undermine you 
preconceived ideas about what these terms might mean.

Part of the problem may be that I have tended to refer to the chitarra as a 
"small lute or mandore".  It would obviously be better simply to refer to it as 
a small lute leaving the mandore out of it.  It's actual make up may have 
varied over the years.

As ever
Monica



- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:28 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy


>
>   Dear Monica,
>
>   Some of what you say about Calvi's collection makes sense - that the
>   intabulated pieces are different from anything else in the 5-course
>   repertoire.
>
>   But I'm puzzled why you object to translating 'chitarra' as 'guitar' in
>   the context of Calvi's collection which contains mostly Alfabeto pieces
>   and not just those later intabulated Sounate. Or are you suggesting
>   that if the qualifier 'alla Spagnola' is not attached to 'chitarra'
>   then it's always a lute shaped instrument! This seems an extreme
>   position to adopt. By this test the 'chitarra' specified by, for
>   example Calvi, Valdambrini and Asioli (which don't have the qualifier
>   'alla Spagnola' or similar on their title pages) are all for the lute
>   shaped instrument.  Note that I left ' chitarriglia' alone since we
>   don't know what it was/is.
>
>   From what you say (below) about Calvi's instruments it seems you
>   believe both were lute shaped instruments but one 'standard' sized
>   (whatever that) and one smaller. Is this really your position?
>
>   regards
>
>   Martyn
>
>

[LUTE] Re: 6c guittar

[Braig, Eugene]

[sheepishly] ok...

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Rob MacKillop
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:40 PM
To: pie...@vantichelen.name
Cc: Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 6c guittar

Now this will be piss me off right royally if you nutters start turning my 
video into an excuse for ranting about what an effing guitar is! Just listen to 
the damn thing, and keep your mouth shut.

:-)

Rob

www.robmackillop.net 

On 29 Jan 2013, at 19:59, "Pieter Van Tichelen"  wrote:

>   Hi Stuart,
>   Yes, the terms for plucked instruments are confusing all the time. Even
>   this day - if you say guitar, some people think of the electric, other
>   of the jazz, folk or even other instruments... However, I believe you
>   mixed up something in my argument. The English guit(t)ar I simply
>   mentioned as an example of confusing names for instruments - which
>   point you clearly got.
>   However, I'm not linking that (English) "guitar" but the cittern-type
>   by the name "gittern" to the medieval gittern. If you're really
>   interested, I might dig up my original article about it - where I link
>   it to the Praetorius section of the "klein Englisch Zitterlein". Ward's
>   book is a good starting point in any case, to trace it's first
>   introduction to England in 1550 and later developments.
>   Kind regards,
>   Pieter
>   
> __
> _
> 
>   Van: "WALSH STUART" 
>   Verzonden: dinsdag 29 januari 2013 20:35
>   Aan: "William Samson" 
>   Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: 6c guittar
>   On 29/01/2013 18:11, William Samson wrote:
>> What a gorgeous sound!
>> 
>> Now are you SURE it's a 'guittar'? Not a Gittariglia? Or a Kitherone? 
>> Or a Banjino Scotsese? Or a Mandolele Giorgio Formbyana?
>> Or a Strattolino Hankus B. Marviniensis?. . .
>   I've just left a compliment to Rob on youtube. So, now, to get back to
>   arguing. I think Pieter was hinting at an argument that the 'English
>   guitar' (dunno how Rob how got himself to actually write those words
>   out!) is a descendant of the medieval gittern. He (Pieter) might have
>   been suggesting that even as late as the 18th century, the terms
>   guitar,
>   guittar, gittern etc etc etc for people in Britain didn't simply, or
>   only, or even most naturally, mean the figure-of-eight thing. (The
>   insistence, today, of the double tt spelling of 'guittar' rather than
>   'guitar' to somehow show that the English guitar isn't really a guitar,
>   would, I think have baffled people at the time of its popularity.)
>   Today we think it is so odd that 18th century Brits called the English
>   guitar (a sort of cittern) a common guitar, a lesser guitar, a guitar,
>   guittar (and quite a few other names).At the time, though, they might
>   not have thought it so odd because they didn't have the concept that
>   the
>   only possible thing an instrument called a guitar, guittar, gittern etc
>   etc must be the figure-of-eight, 'Spanish' guitar.
>   It's arbitrary that we have settled on one spelling (in English) -
>   "guitar", and one form, the figure-of-eight body type, from all the
>   names in the past with which it stood on equal footing - guitern,
>   gittern, guittar, gytron etc etc etc which might have meant at
>   different
>   times, lute-like things, cittern-like things and figure-of-eight
>   thingies. So today, when we see the word 'guitar' we are apt to think
>   the instrument 'must' be a figure-of-eight instrument (at the very
>   least). But this can mislead us about the past.
>   And this is what I understand R. Meucci to be saying about the Italian
>   word, 'chitarra' (and variant spellings of it).
>   Stuart
>> 
>> Looking forward to hearing it in the flesh on Saturday at the
>   Scottish
>> Lute and Early Guitar Society meeting!
>> 
>> Bill
>> From: Rob MacKillop 
>> To: Lute 
>> Sent: Tuesday, 29 January 2013, 17:37
>> Subject: [LUTE] 6c guittar
>> Just to get us away from all the bickering...
>> [1][1]http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk
>> Rob
>> --
>> References
>> 1. [2]http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk
>> To get on or off this list see list information at 
>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>> 1. http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk
>> 2. http://youtu.be/N3YaFJxWCXk
>> 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   --
> 

[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy

[Braig, Eugene]

Excellent plan.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:16 PM
To: Braig, Eugene
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy

Oh dear - sorry if I have given the wrong impression about what Martyn was 
saying.

We sometimes get at cross-purposes and get cross with one another but I think 
we are on friendly enough terms not to take offense.

Apologies if you or he see it differently.

And now as Rob suggests - let's just listen to the music and enjoy.

Monica

Monica


- Original Message -
From: "Braig, Eugene" 
To: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:17 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy


>I certainly can't speak for Martyn, but don't detect any suppositions of 
>"self-evident" terminology in what he's written to this thread.  I can 
>speak for me, and what Martyn has written does speak to my own skepticism. 
>I perceive a great difference between "In spite of Meucci's article, I'm 
>not certain what 'chitarra' may refer to in every instance," and "Because 
>I'm not certain of the universal meaning of 'chitarra' in this context, it 
>must sometimes refer to a waisted instrument."  The impression I've always 
>taken from this thread is the former concept, and it's one I personally 
>like.  I don't mind occasional admission to not knowing or not having come 
>to a conclusion.  As a matter of fact, I ordinarily prefer that state of 
>knowledge.  It's much more plastic if/when contrary evidence ever does 
>arise.
>
> Carry on.
>
> Eugene
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
> Behalf Of Monica Hall
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:30 AM
> To: Martyn Hodgson
> Cc: Lutelist
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
>
> Contrary to what you suggest - we do know that "chitarriglia" is an 
> Italian term for a small guitar.  I understand that it is an Italianized 
> version of the Spanish diminutive - guitarrilla.  It is used to refer to 
> the instrument in 5-course guitar books fairly indiscrimately - i.e. 
> without necessarily implying a smaller instrument than usual.  Pesori and 
> Granata come to mind.
>
> I am objecting to the translation of "chitarra" as "guitar" in the passage
> which you quote.   I wouldn't translate the title as it appears on the 
> title
> page at all. If I was translating the introduction on p.5 I would leave 
> the terms "chitarriglia" and "chitarra" untranslated with a note 
> explaining possible interpretations of them.  It is axiomatic that when 
> translating terms like these that you try to find definitions of them in 
> dictionaries of the period.
>
> I have to say that when I saw Valdambrini's book for the first time I did 
> wonder whether the description of the instrument on the title page as 
> "chitarra a cinque ordini" indicated that it was a different instrument 
> especially in view of the fact that he clearly says that  that it has a 
> re-entrant tuning.  However the illustration on the title page of Book 1 
> shows a cherub playing a 5-course guitar with the courses and peg holes 
> clearly visible.  The music and the notation is in line with other 
> collections of music for 5-course guitar.  It seems fairly certain that it 
> is for 5-course guitar.
> Asioli's books were printed in the 1670s by which time it seems that it 
> was no longer necessary  to include the qualifier "spagnola".
>
> What puzzles me is the way you seem to assume that it is self evident that 
> the term "chitarra" refers to  a 4-course guitar when actually you have 
> never put forward any positive evidence to support your view.
> As Stuart pointed out we tend to look at things from an English point of 
> view and needless to say everyone from Alexander Bellow to James Tyler and 
> your good self, taking in Frederick Grunfeld and Harvey Turnbull and a few 
> others en route have simply assumed that anything called a chitarra or 
> guitarra must be a figure of 8 shaped guitar.
>
> I am surprised that you appear to be dismissing Meucci's article as 
> "nothing more than ad hoc speculation" just because it seems to undermine 
> you preconceived ideas about what these terms might mean.
>
> Part of the problem may be that I have tended to refer to the chitarra as 
> a "small lute or mandore".  It would obviously be better simply to refer 
> to it as a small lute leaving the mandore out of it.  It's actual make up 
> may have varie

[LUTE] Re: The English Guitar

[Braig, Eugene]

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of howard 
posner [howardpos...@ca.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 10:07 AM
To: Lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The English Guitar

On Jan 31, 2013, at 5:24 AM, G. D. Rossi  wrote:

>  I've published articles on this topic - it was indeed called "English"
>   at the time, and several other things as well.
>
>   I play the JCB in concert regularly and have recorded it, too - it's a
>   delight to play - both parts work well on the guittar even though the
>   other part is for violin. Jim Tyler and Taro Takeuci have also recorded
>   it.
>
>   Definitely lots of good music there - Straube, Geminiani, Marelli,
>   Schuman...
>
>   I will now bow out of the conversation.

Someone should mention Doc's s album "La Cetra Galante" -- which consists of 
English guitar music, including some duets he plays with himself, such as the 
JC Bach -- but I'm not going to be the one to mention.  Nor will I mention that 
it seems to be available from iTunes, Magnatunes and Amazon.


Someone should also mention Doc Rossi's fine album "Demarzi: Six Sonatas for 
Cetra or Kitara" as well as Rob MacKillop's "Oswald: Twelve Divertimentis for 
the Guittar."

Enjoy,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Rose?

[Braig, Eugene]

Inset roses are more often in fruitwood (often pear), parchment, or some 
combination of the two, but with wooden layers extremely thin.  As a starter, 
consider emulating the rose of the Cutler-Challen mandolino by Stradivari as a 
relatively simple example in three layers:

http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/PluckedStrings/Mandolins/StradMandolin/StradMandolin.html


For lots of inspiration, check the work of Elena Dal Cortivo:

http://www.parchmentroses.com/


There are a couple rose carving tips on the homepage of my friend Chad's blog:

http://www.neallutes.com/


If you opt to use any wood other than straight parchment, I would probably 
recommend at least the base layer of whatever rose pattern you use be parchment 
and wooden layers be some fruitwood.

..And enjoy,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Joshua E. Horn
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:47 AM
To: Lute Mailing List
Subject: [LUTE] Rose?

Hi guys,

I have an early morning idea that I want to get opinions on.

As I mentioned a couple days ago, I bought myself a Guilele. It is plain 
however, it does not have any designs around the sound hole. My idea is to 
print out a pattern of a Lute rose on stiff paper (or parchment), scaled down 
to the size of my soundhole, and carve it out on a thin sheet of Balsa wood. 
Then I would place it in my Guilele's sound hole. 
The main question I have is, does the type of wood used for the rose going to 
affect the sound of my Guilele? - Because, Balsa wood is the thinnest (with 
varying thickness), inexpensive and most available wood I can get locally. It 
would be ideal for using with an X-acto knife, since that's probably all I'm 
going to find around here too. Any opinions on that?

Thanks!

Josh



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Aquila

[Braig, Eugene]

Odd.  I've been using the new Nylgut on several instruments and don't have that 
issue.  Where fixed to hitch pins, I do have to be very careful of the knot I 
use because the stuff is prone to break at nicks or under tension at kinks.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bruno Correia
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 9:49 AM
To: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Aquila

   Has anybody had problems with NNG placed on the chanterelle? Since I
   started using this new version, the chanterelle snaps very often - it
   doesn't break, simply snaps. My student is complaining about the same
   thing, it doesn't stay in place. I never had such problems with the
   white version.



   Any thoughts?
   --

   Bruno Correia



   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao

   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.

   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela

   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.

[Braig, Eugene]

For those genres that value strict timing, add bluegrass.  Right or wrong, 
those cats can be some of the most elitism-prone musicians I've ever 
encountered.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bruno Correia
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:27 PM
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tempo, magnitude and precision.

   Hello Tobiah,

   How absolute metric time could have been acheived in the Renaissance?
   The tactus was a constant pulse behind the rhythm, but it was an
   organic motion not a strict measured time like a metronome.
   Actually, the only genre of music (which comes to my mind) that really
   plays in time is pop music... How do we know they valued absolute
   strict time in the Renaissance?

   I've heard it expressed by one professor, that
   absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance.

   2013/4/8 Tobiah <[1]t...@tobiah.org>

 I sometimes struggle with the desire to warp the
 tempo of a lute piece, to accentuate a beautiful
 or pivotal phrase, or to keep myself interested
 during a more mundane passage.
 I've heard it expressed by one professor, that
 absolute metric time was desired during the Renaissance.
 I also remember the notion that rubato, in the romantic
 period, was just a way of lending or borrowing time
 in such a way that the same piece played straight through
 at a constant tempo would end at the same time as the
 performance where rubato was performed.
 All of this is bait for discussion, but also a precursor
 to a main query.  I attempted to play along with a youtube
 video of a fellow playing Francesco, and found that it
 was impossible to do; he took wild liberties with the
 tempo at every whim (either that or I can't play in time!).
 I wanted to hear some comment on that aspect of the performance,
 as well as on any other point I have raised.
 Thanks!
 Tobiah
 [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   Bruno Correia

   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

   --

References

   1. mailto:t...@tobiah.org
   2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y837TG7FgFM
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Satoh - de Visée

[Braig, Eugene]

I'm guessing this is the Laurentius Greiff (1610) lute that appears on the CD: 
http://www.carpediem-records.de/en/De-Visee.

Not to be too nitpicky (OK: actually, to be the nitpicky bastard I know myself 
to really be), but "convincing" is much more important than "authentic" in my 
humble opinion.  We simply have no way to objectively and substantially 
evaluate whatever authentic might mean in any modern performance of early music.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
William Samson
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2013 10:02 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Satoh - de Visée


   Beautiful playing - utterly authentic and convincing as far as I can
   see.

   Does anybody know anything about his lute, and what kind of gut strings
   he's using?

   Bill
   From: Valery Sauvage 
   To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, 12 April 2013, 8:57
   Subject: [LUTE] Satoh - de Visee
 A beautiful one to see on YT :
 [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khy1nbjkFNM
 V.
 --
   References
 1. [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khy1nbjkFNM
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khy1nbjkFNM
   2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khy1nbjkFNM
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: microtonal guitar

[Braig, Eugene]

I haven't seen this particular incarnation yet.  However, everything old is new 
again...

Louis Panormo (1784 - 1862): 
http://www.studia-instrumentorum.de/MUSEUM/GITARREN/0566.htm

Rene Lacote (ca. 1785 - after 1868) did similar only a little later in time, 
but I can't find any electronic images of the Lacote version.  A Lacote version 
of an "enharmonic" guitar is catalogued with some basic stats given in Evans 
and Evans' text (1977) and possibly one of Baines' (I can look for better 
citations when home from the day-job office if anybody cares).  Panromo's frets 
were like stout staples that were inserted into pre-drilled holes for better 
non-equal temperament in any key.  Lacote's were more like that in the video, 
with floating frets on small blocks set into a slotted fingerboard.  The 
problem with any of these things is that a change in key requires pretty 
substantial labor to make your guitar aurally "fit."

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Edward Chrysogonus Yong
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:18 AM
To: Lute List List List
Subject: [LUTE] microtonal guitar

Has anyone else seen this? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYK_PF9WTRE

The maker calls it a microtonal guitar, and the frets are individually movable 
under the strings. hmm. could be awfully useful...

Edward Chrysogonus Yong
edward.y...@gmail.com






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[LUTE] Re: Lutes and amps

[Braig, Eugene]

Myself, I prefer no amplification at all, but often find myself in for-hire 
situations that require it.  For my relatively small-scale needs, the Roland AC 
series serves me very well, providing a relatively natural sound that is simply 
a bit louder.  I couple that with a stand-mounted condenser microphone to 
facilitate instrument changes, and again, have been well served by AKG products.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
David van Ooijen
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 5:58 AM
To: lute-cs. dartmouth. edu
Subject: [LUTE] Lutes and amps

   Does anyone have experience with amplifying a lute? I am thinking of a
   set-up with a DPA 4099 mic and an AER Alpha amp. Insights welcome.

   David
   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute in North America?

[Braig, Eugene]

Total irrelevancy alert: Lake Superior only the largest lake in the world by 
surface area, not by volume.  It is a part of a large system, the Laurentian 
Great Lakes, that do constitute the largest freshwater system in the world by 
volume.  However, all by its lonesome ans because of its tremendous depth, Lake 
Baikal in Russia is almost as big a volume of freshwater as the entire 
Laurentian Great Lakes system.  Here's a groovy little club of which I'm quite 
fond: http://www.iaglr.org/.

Semi-relevant: Do citterns count?  In the form of English guittar, they were 
quite popular in 18th-c. North America.

Eugene



From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Edward 
Martin [e...@gamutstrings.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:09 PM
To: Bruno Fournier; Brad Walton
Cc: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute in North America?

Hello Bruno,

I saw this thread, and it did not occur to me the connection in my home town.

I reside in Duluth Minnesota;  Duluth is at the far eastern side of
Lake Superior, the largest lake on this planet.  If my memory is
correct, the year was 1679, in which the French explorer, Daniel
Greysolon Sieur du Luth was exploring in this area, and it gave birth
to the french exploration of the fur trade in northern Minnesota.

I have tried to find why this person, Greysolon, had a title, "Sir of
the Lute", but I have found no connection to an actual lute, and I
recall asking some years ago some local historians how our city is
entitled, "of the Lute".  Thus far, I know nothing, but Greysolon
would have been here during the times of Gallot and Mouton.  Perhaps
there had been a "luth" in his family's coat of arms.

I wish I could provide more information.

ed



At 10:53 AM 6/19/2013, Bruno Fournier wrote:
>Hi Brad,
>
>A
>
>Robert Derome from University of Quebec has done quiteA  a bit of
>research on the lute in New France ( Quebec) in the 17th century.A  you
>might want to contact him.A  I don't know if he's on this list.
>
>A
>
>Here is the webiste on Lute in New France:
>
>A
>
>sorry its in French.
>
>A
>
>[1]http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Frontispice.html
>
>A
>
>I believe that the Sieur De Maisonneuve played lute.A  Also the Sieur
>Duluth, who was a french soldier and explorer, is accounted to have
>played lute, hence his surname.A  His name would have been given to
>Duluth Minnesota... maybe Ed Martin can comment on that..
>
>A
>
>[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Greysolon,_Sieur_du_Lhut
>
>A
>
>A
>
>Bruno
>
>from Montreal
>
>A
>
>A
>
>2013/6/19 Brad Walton <[3]gtung.wal...@utoronto.ca>
>
>  Hello lute folks!
>  Does anyone know of any records -- references in literature,
>  letters, diaries, whatever, or depictions in paintings or prints --
>  of lutes being played in North America during the 17th and/or 18th
>  centuries?
>  Thanks,
>  Brad
>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>--
>
>A
>
>Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
>
>A
>
>[5]www.estavel.org
>
>A
>
>--
>
>References
>
>1. http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r14310/Luth/Frontispice.html
>2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Greysolon,_Sieur_du_Lhut
>3. mailto:gtung.wal...@utoronto.ca
>4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>5. http://www.estavel.org/



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute
http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin

[LUTE] Re: Lute in North America?

[Braig, Eugene]

Ha!

Eugene

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of howard 
posner [howardpos...@ca.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2013 7:33 PM
To: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute in North America?

On Jun 19, 2013, at 4:27 PM, "Braig, Eugene"  wrote:

> Total irrelevancy alert: Lake Superior only the largest lake in the world by 
> surface area, not by volume.  It is a part of a large system, the Laurentian 
> Great Lakes, that do constitute the largest freshwater system in the world by 
> volume. However, all by its lonesome ans because of its tremendous depth, 
> Lake Baikal in Russia is almost as big a volume of freshwater as the entire 
> Laurentian Great Lakes system.  Here's a groovy little club of which I'm 
> quite fond:http://www.iaglr.org/.
>
> Semi-relevant: Do citterns count?

No.  A cittern is not a lake, no matter how deep it is.


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute in North America?

[Braig, Eugene]

Hmmm...

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Tobiah
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 12:39 PM
To: Braig, Eugene
Cc: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute in North America?


> Here's a groovy little club of which I'm quite fond: http://www.iaglr.org/.

The name was obviously mangled to accommodate the catchy acronym that sounds 
like 'eye ag ler'.

If the organization weren't paying so much attention to the acronym, they might 
have come up with a more suitable name:

Worldwide Association Toward Eerie Research

;)

Tobiah



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Baroque guitar (original)

[Braig, Eugene]

What a score!  All is beautiful.  Sincere thanks for sharing, Valéry.  Of what 
material is the back?

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Valéry Sauvage
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 1:12 AM
To: 'Lutelist List'
Subject: [LUTE] Baroque guitar (original)

Hello, I want to show you this baroque guitar, just arrived yesterday from the 
restorer (Erik-Pierre Hofmann, thanks to him)  original baroque guitar from 
1760) French one (made in Marseille, Nice or Lyon ?) and first restored around 
1800 in Wien. Gut strung.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-0ycGy8lpc

Valéry





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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

Thank you for this little interjection of integrationist rationality, Ned.  
This thread was descending too deeply into a segregationist 
pooh-pooh-the-classical-mainstream fest for my tastes.  Frankly, the whole 
world of academic music seems to me to be teetering on the brink of commercial 
collapse.  We'd be better off celebrating whatever of it we like than 
pooh-poohing any of it.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Edward Mast
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 8:51 PM
To: Stephen Fryer
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

Disdain for either early or later music is foolish.   Duke Ellington is reputed 
to have said:  "There are only two kinds of music; good music and bad music".  
Playing early music on recorders and later music on the cello, I feel fortunate 
to have playing access to both Dufay and Dvorak.
Ned




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 11:56:49 -0700, Nancy Carlin wrote:
> > - web pages. This is the first place where potential employers 
> > (concert promoters etc.) look to find contact information. There are 
> > more than a few "names" in the lute world who do not have their own 
> > web sites. When you Google them all you get is links to buy their CDs. 
> > - email lists.


On Tuesday, August 06, 2013 5:08 PM, R. Mattes wrote:
> Here I have to strongly object. I think that web-pages are totally over-rated
> (and I _do_ have some experience with the World Wide Web). Of all the 
> musicians I know, only one, once, got a concert because of his web page. 
> Maybe it's totally different in the states but the idea that a concert 
> organizer 
> googles for a Lute player (or any other kind of musician) is absurd. You get 
> concerts because you _know_ people (and contact them at least twice a 
> year!). You build up networks - invite other musicians to concert series you 
> organize and hopefuly you get invited back (oh, and you need to have at 
> least a small concert series :-)
> 
> The problem of most organizers/comitees is not having to few groups to play 
> (and hence having to find some) - it's more often having too many 

Writing as a concert series organizer in the states, I generally agree, Ralf.  
I don't pursue any artists myself.  Instead, I choose our series from whoever 
has sent me proposals to perform.  Of course, decisions are weighted by 
whatever they send me as proposal material--reviews, formal press packets, CV, 
commercial recordings, etc--as well as personal knowledge of artists and 
careers.  While submitted material almost always involves some reference to an 
artist-dedicated web site, it doesn't always . . . And such sites certainly are 
not the first place I look for contact; direct contact from artists is.  
Hard-copy material is growing rarer, and much of what I receive in recent years 
is electronic.


> > I have yet to see a paper out at a lute concert where the players is 
> > collecting emails for his own mailing list.
> > Concert promoters have a hard time getting audiences out and need all 
> > the help they can get. Musicians who help them fill the seats get 
> > booked. - the lute world seems to be made up of players of all levels, 
> > but completely empty of people who are just fans.

> Yes, that's sadly a phenomen the lute world shares with the guitar world. 
> Player-only-audiences. I think it correlates with the fact that guitar-/lute 
> players often _only_ listen to Lute/Guitar music (have a look at your lute/
> guitar player friends CD shelves). I prefer to dwell in the early music world 
> where ensembles do have "fan" audiences.

Alas . . .  While this is too much the case for the wee series I organize 
(http://columbusguitarsociety.org/Concert_Series.html), it certainly is not for 
our local early-music series (http://www.earlymusicincolumbus.org/) that has 
been drawing a diverse and ever-increasing audience of community appreciators 
and (to a much lesser extent) players.  While I offer my sincerest 
congratulations to their artistic director and board, I don't entirely 
understand.

Best,
Eugene

Eugene C. Braig IV
Artistic Director
Phone: 614-561-9204
e-mail: cgs.eug...@gmail.com

The Columbus Guitar Society
Capital University, Conservatory of Music
1 College & Main 
Columbus, OH 43209
USA

http://columbusguitarsociety.org/






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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

. . . And I've seen Hoppy fire off several bars by Piccinini on modern piano to 
demonstrate phrasing a line during a master class . . . by ear . . . and then 
transpose the same by half a step on the fly to accommodate A at 415!  He tried 
to demonstrate it on the 5-course guitar with which he was traveling, but in 
his stringing, having access to no lower note than g, he didn't find its 
representation of that line (originally descending into archlute diapasons) 
satisfactory.  All in good fun.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
r.turov...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:18 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

I forgot who mentioned Hoppy and keyboard.
BUT,
I have seen him play Dowland on keyboard, with my own eyes.
RT



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

. . . Many (certainly not all) somehow believing that assuming a bad cockney 
accent; whacking each other with wooden weapons while feigning the inability to 
use struck limbs; and listening to modern Irish, Scottish, or English folk 
songs strummed by steel-strung acoustic instruments somehow relates to 
late-medieval/early-renaissance life.  If that's your thing, go for it.  
Myself, I kinda prefer music.



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
r.turov...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 5:37 PM
To: Stephen Fryer
Cc: t...@heartistrymusic.com; Nancy Carlin; erne...@aquila.mus.br; R. Mattes; 
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

For those who don't speak American, and don't know American mores:
SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism, and it has nothing to do with 
NYSCA, which is the New York State Council on the Arts.
The latter is a venerable institution that funds arts here, and the former is 
group of uncultured boors in silly costumes who managed to completely destroy 
the NY Medieval Festival at Cloisters.
RT



On 8/8/2013 5:25 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
> No, it's just the stench that is insufferable.
> RT
>
>
> On 8/8/2013 5:23 PM, Stephen Fryer wrote:
>> Well if you're afraid to get that close, you must be pretty scared of 
>> them.
>> Stephen Fryer
>>
>> On 08/08/2013 2:00 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> It doesn't,
>>> but I don't have any poles over 10' here.
>>> RT
>>>
>>> On 8/8/2013 4:55 PM, Stephen Fryer wrote:
 Why does it frighten you?
 Stephen Fryer

 On 07/08/2013 11:15 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
> That's one scary thought.
> RT
>
>
> On 8/7/2013 10:28 PM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote:
>
>> Why not lutes?  Get the SCA involved!
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

Huzzah!



From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of 
Christopher Wilke [chriswi...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 11:51 PM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

   I must extend my sincerest thanks to ye olde SCA. I once went to a
   Renaissance "Faire" with a fellow modern musician (it was his
   suggestion). He said, "I'll bet you're happy. This is one place you'll
   see plenty of lutes in action." I wagered him a very hefty sum that we
   would not see or hear any lutes there. It was a most profitable day for
   me. Thanks again, SCA!
   Chris

   Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
 __________

   From: "Braig, Eugene" 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 6:12 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
   . . . Many (certainly not all) somehow believing that assuming a bad
   cockney accent; whacking each other with wooden weapons while feigning
   the inability to use struck limbs; and listening to modern Irish,
   Scottish, or English folk songs strummed by steel-strung acoustic
   instruments somehow relates to late-medieval/early-renaissance life.
   If that's your thing, go for it.  Myself, I kinda prefer music.
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of
   [3]r.turov...@gmail.com
   Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2013 5:37 PM
   To: Stephen Fryer
   Cc: [4]t...@heartistrymusic.com; Nancy Carlin; [5]erne...@aquila.mus.br;
   R. Mattes; [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
   For those who don't speak American, and don't know American mores:
   SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism, and it has nothing to do
   with NYSCA, which is the New York State Council on the Arts.
   The latter is a venerable institution that funds arts here, and the
   former is group of uncultured boors in silly costumes who managed to
   completely destroy the NY Medieval Festival at Cloisters.
   RT
   On 8/8/2013 5:25 PM, [7]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
   > No, it's just the stench that is insufferable.
   > RT
   >
   >
   > On 8/8/2013 5:23 PM, Stephen Fryer wrote:
   >> Well if you're afraid to get that close, you must be pretty scared
   of
   >> them.
   >> Stephen Fryer
   >>
   >> On 08/08/2013 2:00 PM, [8]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
   >>> It doesn't,
   >>> but I don't have any poles over 10' here.
   >>> RT
   >>>
   >>> On 8/8/2013 4:55 PM, Stephen Fryer wrote:
   >>>> Why does it frighten you?
   >>>> Stephen Fryer
   >>>>
   >>>> On 07/08/2013 11:15 PM, [9]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote:
   >>>>> That's one scary thought.
   >>>>> RT
   >>>>>
   >>>>>
   >>>>> On 8/7/2013 10:28 PM, [10]t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote:
   >>>>>
   >>>>>> Why not lutes?  Get the SCA involved!
   >>>>>
   >>
   >>
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   4. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com
   5. mailto:erne...@aquila.mus.br
   6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   8. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
   9. mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com
  10. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com
  11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

Excellent points, all.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
t...@heartistrymusic.com
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 2:43 PM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Christopher Wilke
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

  Yes - unfortunately, "Renaissance Faires" have been rife with guys in running 
shoes and a smock playing Stan Rogers songs on Guild guitars.
  But this does not mean that things can't change.  
  My son worked Ren Faires for awhile, and there was quite a lot of interest 
amongst the participants in Paul Odette's CDs.  I think the Ren Faire folks 
would actually love to have some real lute players, but Ren Faires don't pay 
anything.  Most entertainers who work them make their income selling CDs and 
DVDs.  
  Back to the part about interest: the interest is there.  I'm not suggesting 
that anybody on this list would want to try playing at a Ren Faire.  I AM 
suggesting that there are potential audience members and recorded music 
consumers in this crowd.
  Personally, it doesn't matter to me if my audience members like to hurl large 
weapons at each other in their spare time, as long as they aren't hurling them 
at me.  I would rather have a large audience full of prople who simply think 
that what I do is cool, than to have a miniscule audience of highly opinionated 
academics waiting to pounce on my first mistake and tear me apart in a bad 
review.
  "Riverdance" brought attention to Celtic music.  And many celtic bands 
capitalized on riding that wave of success.
  "O Brother Where Art Thou" brought attention to Appalachian Traditional 
music, and ultimately resulted in success for musicians like Alison Krauss, 
who, even though they are great musicians, might be unheard of today if not for 
that movie.
  Similarly, those who love movies like Robin Hood and Lord of the Rings, or 
Sting's Dowland project, I think, are potential audience for lute recordings 
and concerts.  How to get the word out to them that these recordings and 
concerts exist is an issue.  Also, how to make an Early Music concert an 
occasion that's not dry, pedantic and stuffy might be another issue.
  One VERY good way of increasing awareness is school outreach.  Any time you 
are performing in a community see if the presenters can partner with the school 
system.  Kids will be impressed by the instruments, and it will leave a good 
lasting impression.  I was able to get Jacques Ogg and members of Lyra Baroque 
into our elementary school.  How cool is that!  
  Tom
  
   I must extend my sincerest thanks to ye olde SCA. I once went to a
   Renaissance "Faire" with a fellow modern musician (it was his
   suggestion). He said, "I'll bet you're happy. This is one place
   you'll see plenty of lutes in action." I wagered him a very hefty
   sum that we would not see or hear any lutes there. It was a most
   profitable day for me. Thanks again, SCA! Chris

   Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
 

_
 _

   From: "Braig, Eugene" 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2013 6:12 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
   . . . Many (certainly not all) somehow believing that assuming a
   bad cockney accent; whacking each other with wooden weapons while
   feigning the inability to use struck limbs; and listening to modern
   Irish, Scottish, or English folk songs strummed by steel-strung
   acoustic instruments somehow relates to
   late-medieval/early-renaissance life. If that's your thing, go for
   it.  Myself, I kinda prefer music. -Original Message- From:
   [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   On Behalf Of [3]r.turov...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, August 08,
   2013 5:37 PM To: Stephen Fryer Cc: [4]t...@heartistrymusic.com;
   Nancy Carlin; [5]erne...@aquila.mus.br; R. Mattes;
   [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute
   awareness For those who don't speak American, and don't know
   American mores: SCA is the Society for Creative Anachronism, and it
   has nothing to do with NYSCA, which is the New York State Council
   on the Arts. The latter is a venerable institution that funds arts
   here, and the former is group of uncultured boors in silly costumes
   who managed to completely destroy the NY Medieval Festival at
   Cloisters. RT On 8/8/2013 5:25 PM, [7]r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: >
   No, it's just the stench that is insufferable. > RT > > > On
   8/8/2013 5:23 PM, Stephen Fryer wrote: >> Well if you're afraid to
   get that close, you must be pretty scared of >> them. >> Stephen
   Fryer >> >&g

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

Sorry, we really do try our best, but a series like ours here in Columbus, OH 
doesn't draw the huge names and never pays the somewhat biggish names anything 
close to what they ask or deserve.  I.e., that split isn't so wide here.

Eugene


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of 
Christopher Wilke [chriswi...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2013 11:50 AM
To: William Samson; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

   On the other hand, this can make things incredibly difficult for
   professionals in the nebulous middle between amateur and big-name
   status. I have turned down offers simply because the fee wouldn't even
   cover travel expenses. Then I look at the series and see that they have
   a mix of big name acts with some local players on there. I know about
   how much the Names make and it is exponentially more than what I get
   offered.
   I wish these organizations might budget for something between their
   "legitimate" and "no name" fees that would make touring at least
   feasible for people who have not reached the top tier yet.
   Chris
   Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
 __

   From: William Samson 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 6:44 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
 The point I am making about fees is that any society around here at
 that time (Dundee, Scotland, 1980) has a fixed budget for performers.
 The usual practice (even now, I believe) is to use local amateur
 performers to fill most of the slots at minimal expense so
 that the money can be husbanded to pay for a few big names, each
 year, who usually have to travel a considerable distance (from
   London,
 for example) to perform.  As for equal fees, I think not - Is Bill
 Samson worth as much as Nigel North for a gig of equal duration?  Of
 course not.  The annual budget is fixed, so the bulk of it should go
   to
 the best performers.  Do support bands earn as much as headline bands
   .
 . .?  I think you'll agree that this is quite different from selling
   a
 photograph for publication (which I have also done) at the standard
 rate set by the publisher.
 As with your own situation, there were no professional early
   musicians
 living nearby who's gigs we were stealing - Even so, the fun was the
 thing, and if by saving money the organisers were able to attract
 somebody really outstanding at another time in the season, so much
   the
 better for all concerned.
 Bill
 From: Geoff Gaherty <[1]ge...@gaherty.ca>
 To: William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
 Sent: Friday, 9 August 2013, 22:53
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
 On 09/08/13 4:55 PM, William Samson wrote:
 > As amateurs we only accepted travelling expenses and any
   hospitality
 > that was on offer, but we politely declined any fee.  I am of the
 > opinion that for an amateur musician accept a fee is to take what
   is
 > due to those who depend on performing fees to make a living.
 As well as being an amateur lutenist, I am also an amateur
 photographer.
   One of my photography teachers made the point that anyone who sells
   a
 photograph for publication, amateur or professional, should expect
   the
 same fee.  By allowing our photographs to sell for less, we are
 undercutting the professionals, and depriving them of a livelihood.
   If
 it's good enough to publish, it's worth the same fee, no matter who
 took it.
 I myself do a lot of performing for free, but I do it because it's
   fun.
   Besides, there are no professional early musicians in my community,
 so
 I'm not stealing anyone's gigs, and I am (hopefully) increasing the
 audience for early music.
 Geoff
 --
 Geoff Gaherty
 Foxmead Observatory
 Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
 [1][3]http://www.gaherty.ca/
 [2][4]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
 --
   References
 1. [5]http://www.gaherty.ca/
 2. [6]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:ge...@gaherty.ca
   2. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
   3. http://www.gaherty.ca/
   4. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
   5. http://www.gaherty.ca/
   6. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

Fortunately, because tromba marina is played entirely in natural harmonics, 
correctly tuning its one string should get you within 2 cents of any note it 
can muster.  By the way, can you use any reentrant tuning schemes on tromba 
marina, or does that depend upon its scale length?

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Wilke
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 9:32 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; t...@heartistrymusic.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

Tom,

I am by no means opposed to the idea of reaching out to other groups, but I 
have to say I am very skeptical about the SCA. By including the word 
"anachronism" in the title of the organization, they say quite openly that they 
are all about intentional historical inaccuracy. Meanwhile, we are about being 
"historically informed." Despite some (very) superficial similarities, then, 
our groups are really after two diametrically opposed goals.

 Then there's the double issue of the word "Creative" in their name. Lordy, 
we've got people expostulating on the size of the proper theorbo, what 
stringing one is permitted to use on a baroque guitar, and how all competent 
musicians must be able to sight read plainchant neumes backwards and upside 
down on the tromba marina while transposing accurately by within 2 cents and 
simultaneously gargling the contra tenor from the Sanctus of DuFay's "Missa 
L'homme Arme" in augmentation. So, in other words, creativity is most unwelcome 
here.

Chris

Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com


On Sun, 8/11/13, t...@heartistrymusic.com  wrote:

 Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, August 11, 2013, 11:58 AM
 
    NYC Medieval
 Festival at Fort Tryon was originally run by the history
 
    department of Hunter College of CUNY, very  nicely too. Until SCA took
 
    over.. RT
 
    Are we trying creatively to increase  general audience for lute music
    here,
 
    or are we practicing exclusivity? I'm  looking at SCA and Ren Faires
    solely
 
    as a group of potential music buyers. Why  not encourage the interest
    and
 
    point it in the right direction?
 
    Tom
 
    On 8/11/2013 11:08 AM, Geoff Gaherty
 wrote:
 
    > On 11/08/13 9:41 AM, Ron Fletcher
 wrote:
 
    >> My main point is that true
 historical re-enactment is
 
    >> not fantasy, but a desire to
 generate public awareness of our great
 
    >> heritage.
 
    >
 
    > For a number of years, I was music  director for Poculi Ludiquae
 
    > Societas, the medieval drama society  at the University of Toronto's
 
    > Institute of Medieval Studies during  the 1980s:
 
    >
 
    > http://groups.chass.utoronto.ca/plspls/
 
    >
 
    > We were committed to meticulous
 historical research as well as
 
    > lively performances.  My job was
 to select music appropriate to the
 
    > time and culture of the plays being  performed, and to provide
 
    > suitable musicians to perform
 it.  We worked in very close
 
    > association with the professional
 early music performers in Toronto,
 
    > to everyone's mutual benefit.
 
    >
 
    > We used to cringe whenever anyone
 mentioned the Society for Creative
 
    > Anachronism!
 
    >
 
    > Geoff
 
    >
 
    To get on or off this list see list
 information at
 
    http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
    Tom Draughon
 
    Heartistry Music
 
    http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html
 
    714  9th Avenue West
 
    Ashland, WI  54806
 
    715-682-9362
 
 
 
    --
 
 



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[LUTE] Re: Advice regarding a lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Nothing specific regarding The Renaissance Gilde.  However, in general, 
features that make for less playable musical instruments or that are just plain 
weird without any demonstrable benefits rarely (i.e., almost never) enhance 
value.  Any exceptions tend to be among large commercial entities with large 
distribution and a large base of weird collectors: e.g., a Loyd Loar-signed 
Gibson with a Virzi "Tone Producer" intact might have some enhanced value.  But 
a generally weird, early lute from The Renaissance Gilde?  Probably not.  If 
you got this for a good price, and can have it rendered functional for a good 
price, I recommend you go forth and enjoy.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
jeffrey bunce
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2013 1:53 PM
To: Wayne Cripps
Subject: [LUTE] Advice regarding a lute

   Hello, All! I was wondering if anyone could offer me some advice
   regarding a lute that I acquired recently. The maker, according to the
   label in the belly of the lute was "The Renaissance Gilde, Box 193,
   Cambridge Wisconsin. No year of construction is given. I understand the
   "The Renaissance Gilde" is synonymous with a William Daum, from whom
   Paul O'Dette, who mentioned this in his interview, acquired his first
   "real lute" in 1972.
 It is a 7 course lute with a 65 cm scale length-I'm guessing that
   it was made in the 1960s or '70s-very lightweight and resonant, but
   with warping of the soundboard in front of the bridge and a small place
   where the soundboard has separated from the back end of the lute. Also,
   whoever tied the frets on-all nylon and all the same guage-, tied them
   on much too tightly, so that there are indentations in the edge of the
   fingerboard and on the back of the neck itself.

   This lute has some odd features:
   Strangely, the body of the lute has no capping strip and never had one,
   and as a result, a few of the ends of the ribs have come unglued from
   the block. I don't know if all lutes came with capping strips, but this
   feature seems to be a pretty fundamental part of lute construction.
   Also, the fingerboard is oddly shaped-it goes from being thin at the
   body and tapering to a much greater thickness at the pegbox to form a
   kind of large shim. The width of the neck does match the string spacing
   of the bridge and nut-there is about 1 cm of space between the treble
   string and the edge of the neck and fingerboard.
   My real issue, however, is this: Even though I know that there is much
   that I could do myself, or have a professional luthier do, to make this
   instrument more playable, it is these odd features that make me
   question whether or not this lute is some kind of prototype or special
   project. If so, I hesitate to make any modifications in case this lute
   may be worth a lot more money. So far, I've done some research on the
   internet to try to find more about the maker and contact him and I was
   able to find a telephone number, but when I dialed it, it was no longer
   in service.
   If anyone could offer some advice or information, especially regarding
   instruments made by The Renaissance Gilde, I would be most grateful.
   Thanks!

   --


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[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

[Braig, Eugene]

For what it's worth, those Westminster recordings (both guitar and lute) were 
later bundled up and reissued as a 2-CD set.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Geoff Gaherty
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2013 4:33 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness

On 12/08/13 3:16 PM, Sean Smith wrote:
> In other words it's hard to build up trust and the label created an 
> easy proxy for it.

Back in the '50s the recording industry was dominated by three companies 
(Victor, Columbia, and Decca in the US), and they basically dictated what 
people heard:99% mainsteream classical music.

The advent of the tape recorder allowed small labels and individuals to produce 
their own records, and many turned to early music to find repertoire not 
available from the big three.  We've all talked about how influential Julian 
Bream's early lute records were, especially his Victor Elizabethan lute record. 
 In going back through my music library (thousands of vinyls, and even a few 
acoustical 78s!) I realized that I'd totally forgotten that Bream had an 
extensive recording career _before_ that epochal disk, on one of those small 
independent labels, Westminster.  He made at least 4 LPs for Westminster, 
mostly on the guitar, but there was one of Dowland's lute music, played on the 
lute. 
Believe me, in those days there was a miniscule market for guitar music played 
by anyone other than Segovia, and ZERO market for Dowland lute solos.  
Westminster took a gamble on young Bream, and did quite well by him, but it 
wasn't until he jumped ship to Victor that his recording career really took off.

Geoff

--
Geoff Gaherty
Foxmead Observatory
Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
http://www.gaherty.ca
http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/



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[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - "Would you like to see my lute?"

[Braig, Eugene]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4f8fej9Sqo


Eugene




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - "Would you like to see my lute?"

[Braig, Eugene]

Yes, a little sad, but this clip was a product of the time.  Bream was still 
young, an up-and-coming, and, by then, Stravinsky's status was legendary.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:47 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - "Would you like to see my 
lute?"


Very interesting! Thanks!

But it is quite irritating to see, how obsequious JB is ...

Arto

On 13/08/13 01:32, Braig, Eugene wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4f8fej9Sqo
>
>
> Eugene
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - "Would you like to see my lute?"

[Braig, Eugene]

Another Stravinsky a pizzico aside that came to me via mandolin composer and 
copyright researcher Neil Gladd:

Stravinsky's ballet Agon has a brief mandolin part.  The English mandolinist 
Hugo D'Alton performed Agon with Stravinsky conducting in London during the 
1950s.  Stravinsky was so impressed that he offered to write a mandolin 
concerto for D'Alton . . . if D'Alton could conjure up a £20,000 commission 
fee.  Needless to say, being a professional mandolinist confined in time to the 
1950s, D'Alton couldn't, and the concerto never came to be.  Ah well . . .

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
William Samson
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:40 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - "Would you like to see my 
lute?"


   In a recent interview Bream said that his main career objective was to
   get serious composers to write for the guitar and admitted that he made
   a nuisance of himself in the nicest possible way until they did.  He
   was clearly trying out his technique on Stravinsky, but with a lute
   rather than a guitar.

   At the end of the day, Bream has done more than any other guitarist to
   interest composers in his instrument and even get them to write for it.

   Embarassing for JB to have this unsuccessful seduction recorded on film
   for all to see, but Igor maybe missed an opportunity there.

   Bill
   From: Ed Durbrow 
   To: Arto Wikla ; lute list
   
   Sent: Tuesday, 13 August 2013, 8:55
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness - "Would you like to
   see my lute?"
   On the complete DVD, which you can find on youtube, you get more
   background to the encounter. It was an impossible situation for Julian.
   On Aug 13, 2013, at 4:47 PM, [1]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote:
   > But it is quite irritating to see, how obsequious JB is ...
   Ed Durbrow
   Saitama, Japan
   [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
   2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: now- How did Iadone play?

[Braig, Eugene]

Iadone's odd lute appears to be a misappropriated late 18th-c. mandolone, at 
least on a superficial visual-aesthetic level.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Edward Martin
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 6:47 PM
To: Arthur Ness; Mayes, Joseph; Dan Winheld; Edward Mast
Cc: 'lute'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: now- How did Iadone play?

Not only that, but I found a photograph of Iodone with Hindemith

http://music.yale.edu/news/?p=8933

ed

At 12:48 PM 8/13/2013, Arthur Ness wrote:
>Hi Joseph!!
>
>Here's more on Iadone with samples of his playing:
>
>http://lyrichord.com/theartofthelute-josephiadone.aspx
>
>Regards, Arthur
>
>- Original Message - From: "Mayes, Joseph" 
>To: "Dan Winheld" ; "Edward Mast" 
>Cc: "'lute'" 
>Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:49 AM
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: now- How did Iadone play?
>
>
>>Hi Dan
>>
>>I have a picture of Iadone from an old string packet. I know how 
>>misleading pictures can be (future guitarists will look at Picasso's 
>>"Blue Guitar" and be flummoxed) but his right hand looks like the 
>>archaic bent-wrist guitar style.
>>
>>I'll send the picture along if I can find it.
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>
>>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf 
>>Of Dan Winheld [dwinh...@lmi.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:35 AM
>>To: Edward Mast
>>Cc: 'lute'
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: now- How did Iadone play?
>>
>>Hi Ed-
>>
>>That's right- New York Pro Musica, Noah Greenberg. And those old heavy 
>>but cool Passauro (Sp?) lutes. Do you know if there are any vids of 
>>him playing? Or even still pictures somewhere? Even some ex- student's 
>>description would help. I have largely gone over to thumb-out myself- 
>>"HIP" thumb out as far as I can figure it out- too much Archlute, 
>>Baroque lute & late Renaissance lute to stay with thumb under 
>>exclusively; so I would like to know more about how Joe played, since 
>>his recorded sound impressed me so much all those years ago.
>>
>>Thanks!   - Dan
>>
>>On 8/13/2013 6:40 AM, Edward Mast wrote:
>>>Hi Dan,
>>>
>>>Joseph Iadone was my first exposure to the lute.  He headed an early 
>>>music workshop that I attended for several years in Vermont (early 70's).
>>>Lucy Cross taught there also.  And Richard Taruskin, who led us 
>>>through the early chapters of Hindemith's Elementary Training for 
>>>Musicians.  I never heard any lute solos there, just amazing ensemble 
>>>music, and lute songs, of course. (Russell Oberlin was there the first year 
>>>I attended).
>>>Joe was a truly unique player; no one played - or plays - like him.  
>>>I actually first heard about him through my brother, who was studying 
>>>bass with him at the Hartt School of Music.  He did play with the New 
>>>York Pro Musica, founded by Noah Greenberg.  I have some of their 
>>>recordings with Joe, or Christopher Williams (one of his students) 
>>>playing.  He also made some wonderful recordings with the Renaissance 
>>>Quartet.  One of the recordings I have on CD is one he did largely 
>>>himself at home, recording all the parts to duos, trios and quartets.
>>>The story as I've heard it is that Hindemith asked Joe to play the 
>>>lute in his collegium at Yale, so he had to teach himself how to play 
>>>it.  I think some of the information about technique he got from the 
>>>introduction to Varietie of Lute Lessons.  Thumb over (or out) but 
>>>without nails and thumb-index for single lines.
>>>
>>>Ned
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>To get on or off this list see list information at 
>>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute
http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin

[LUTE] Re: Indian 'English' guitar music from Calcutta, 1789

[Braig, Eugene]

Truly intriguing.  Thanks, Stuart!

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
WALSH STUART
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 2:52 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Indian 'English' guitar music from Calcutta, 1789

I came across a curiosity on IMSLP - "The Oriental Miscellany; being a 
collection of the most favourite Airs of Hindoostan, compiled and adapted for 
the Harpsichord &c. By William Hamilton Bird." (Calcutta, 1789). The '&c' in 
the title is the guitar! There is a quite lengthy section of the Airs set for 
the guitar at the end.

I wondered if these 'Hindoostanni Airs' were simply dreamed up in Covent Garden 
by someone who had never set foot in India but a quick search online reveals 
that William Hamilton Bird did live and work in India (and publish this book) - 
and later died in Dublin. A feature on the harpsichord player, Jane Chapman, 
says that " the publication was the first collection of Indian music 
transcribed from live performance into Western notation and adapted for 
harpsichord."

In the Introduction to the Oriental Miscellany, Bird writes:"The greatest 
imperfection, however, in the music of every part of India, is the total want 
of accompanyments; a third, or fifth, are additions, the Compiler, during a 
residence of nineteen years in this country, and with the most favorable 
opportunities, has never heard..." and he says "he has taken great pains to 
bring them [the airs] into form as to TIME." 
But he does claim to "have adhered to the original compositions."

Sometimes he adds variations - to make the music less 'insipid'. Bird implies 
that all these pieces are songs. He does not mention instrumental music.

There is no mention in the Introduction of the guitar section at the end. The 
music in the section for the guitar is all in C (occasionally A
minor) and mostly single lines but with full C major chords every so often. 
This must surely be the wire-strung 'English' guitar (guittar). 
some of the guittar setting have a low G so a seven-course instrument is 
sometimes called for.

I've had a quick go at one of the Airs (It does seems a bit odd!), Dandera 
Vakee. In the guitar version it is marked, Con Spirito. The keyboard version is 
in A and Vivace. It's a 'Terana' (Bird describes the Terana as sung only by 
men). And I think he is saying that the piece comes from Serodes (?)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0UdyOgdjA0


Stuart



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

Good luck at it, Joe.  Can you share what mandolin type(s) will be featured in 
solos?  Any Youtubing planned to come of it?

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bernd Haegemann
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:08 AM
To: Mayes, Joseph
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

perhaps here?

`http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vivaldi,_Antonio)
 




Am 13.10.2013 03:06, schrieb Mayes, Joseph:
> Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two mandolins. They'd 
> like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a bass part 
> (with or without figures) could be obtained?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joseph Mayes
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

FYI, the concerto in G for two mandolins (RV 532) is a different work than the 
truly "grosso" grosso in C naming every imaginable soloist (RV 558).

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Arthur Ness
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:15 PM
To: Mayes, Joseph; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

It's available in the International Music Library Project (EU):

http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:Vivaldi%2C%20Antonio&from=C

http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP134924-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf

This score is clearer and has PARTS:

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP237520-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf

But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 "Salmo" (=chalumeaux),
2 theorbos and the violins are designated "violini in tromba marina."  (See the 
red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score is "urtext" is misuse of the 
term!

I have never discovered convincing explanation about what "violini in tromba 
marina" are.  I know what a tromba marina is, but violini?  The best 
explanation is that one plays the notes in harmonics. In the solo sections??? 
Any other explanation?  I don't buy the explanation by  that they are to 
be played on board a ship.

Both are the Malipiero edition and I didn't see figures.  But he has realized 
the continuo in the organ part and that will assist to determine the harmonies. 
 Malipiero, the usual "Collected Edition" of  Vivaldi's instrumental works, is 
"over edited" in my opinion.  In this case, given the original intrumentation, 
it is "under-edited."

Best wishes to you and  Kathleen,

Arthur
- Original Message -
From: "Mayes, Joseph" 
To: "G. Crona" ; "Lutelist" 
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi


> Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two mandolins.
> They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know where a
> bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joseph Mayes
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

Oops.  Please pardon my reading-the-list-and-replying-in-sequence-oversight 
redundancy.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
howard posner
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 2:35 PM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

Hi Arthur:

Might you you be confusing the concerto in G, RV 532 with the "Noah's Ark" (for 
lots of pairs of instruments) concerto in C, R 558?

On Oct 13, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Arthur Ness  wrote:

> But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 "Salmo" 
> (=chalumeaux),
> 2 theorbos and the violins are designated "violini in tromba marina."  
> (See the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score is 
> "urtext" is misuse of the term!
> 
> I have never discovered convincing explanation about what "violini in 
> tromba marina" are.  I know what a tromba marina is, but violini?  The 
> best explanation is that one plays the notes in harmonics. In the solo 
> sections??? Any other explanation?  I don't buy the explanation by 
>  that they are to be played on board a ship.


--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

Ha!  I think you mean "semi-infamous."  Have fun out there.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 6:00 PM
To: Braig, Eugene; Lutelist
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi




I guess I must "fess-up" to the fact that this performance will be with two 
classical guitars, mercifully devoid of any Youtube risk, attoll.

If I had a near neighbor like the legendary EB, I would get a mando and do it 
myself.

JM


On 10/14/13 2:29 PM, "Braig, Eugene"  wrote:

> Good luck at it, Joe.  Can you share what mandolin type(s) will be 
> featured in solos?  Any Youtubing planned to come of it?
> 
> Best,
> Eugene
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
> Behalf Of Bernd Haegemann
> Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 3:08 AM
> To: Mayes, Joseph
> Cc: Lutelist
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
> 
> perhaps here?
> 
> `http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_(Vi
> valdi,_A
> ntonio)
> <http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_2_Mandolins_in_G_major,_RV_532_%28
> Vivaldi,
> _Antonio%29>
> 
> 
> 
> Am 13.10.2013 03:06, schrieb Mayes, Joseph:
>> Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two 
>> mandolins. They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does 
>> anyone know where a bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Joseph Mayes
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at 
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 





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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi

[Braig, Eugene]

   Indeed.  "every imaginable soloist" was, of course, simple exaggeration
   for dramatic effect.  I have a pretty substantial imagination, and
   there are a lot of instrument types out there.


   Be well,

   Eugene




   From: Arthur Ness [mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net]
   Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:47 PM
   To: Braig, Eugene; Lute List
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi


   Dear Eugene,


   I did not say RV 532 (G major) and RV 558 (C major) are the same work.
   The ISMLP editor alleges a second version of RV 532. Take a look at
   his/her entries for RV 532 and scroll down to the red band.  There the
   ISMLP editor explains that RV 532 appears with an "alternate title,"
   citing H. C. Robbins Landon, Vivaldi: Voice of the Baroque (Chicago,
   1996), page 72.  Here is what R Landon wrote:


  "Everyone has supposed that Marcello was lampooning
   Vivaldi's extravagantly orchestrated

   concertos, such as the 'Concerto con Due Flauti, Due Teorbi,
   Due Mandolini, Due Salmo,

   Due Violini in Tromba Marina et un Violoncello' (RV 532),
   performed at the Piet`a . . . in 1740."


   Is Robbins Landon confused? RV 558 also uses pairs of flauti, teorbi,
   mandolini, salme, violini in tromba marina and a 'cello.  Hardly "every
   imaginable solist," as you suggest (cf. RV 555).


   Vivaldi also composed three concertos for violino in tromba marina (RV
   211, 311 and 313).  This fiddle-like instrument, which was popular at
   the Piet`a, has three strings tied to a floating bridge, which produces
   a raspy sound according to Michael Talbot.  There are several articles
   detailing with Vivaldi's use of "exotic" musical instruments.  Check
   JSTOR.


   ajn.

   - Original Message -

   From: "Braig, Eugene" <[1]brai...@osu.edu>

   To: "Lute List" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

   Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 2:50 PM

   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi


   > FYI, the concerto in G for two mandolins (RV 532) is a different work
   than the truly "grosso" grosso in C naming every imaginable soloist (RV
   558).
   >
   > Best,
   > Eugene
   >
   > -Original Message-
   > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [[4]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arthur Ness
   > Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:15 PM
   > To: Mayes, Joseph; Lute List
   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
   >
   > It's available in the International Music Library Project (EU):
   >
   >
   [5]http://imslp.org/index.php?titleEtegory:Vivaldi%2C%20Antonio&from=C
   >
   >
   [6]http://imslp.eu/download.php?file=files/imglnks/euimg/8/81/IMSLP1349
   24-PMLP237520-Vivaldi_Concerto_2mandolins_RV532.pdf
   >
   > This score is clearer and has PARTS:
   >
   >
   [7]http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/0/0e/IMSLP288061-PMLP23752
   0-Concerto-2Bandolins.pdf
   >
   > But notice the original instrumentation includes 2 "Salmo"
   (=chalumeaux),
   > 2 theorbos and the violins are designated "violini in tromba
   marina."  (See the red stripe.)  The comment that the Malipiero score
   is "urtext" is misuse of the term!
   >
   > I have never discovered convincing explanation about what "violini in
   tromba marina" are.  I know what a tromba marina is, but violini?  The
   best explanation is that one plays the notes in harmonics. In the solo
   sections??? Any other explanation?  I don't buy the explanation by
that they are to be played on board a ship.
   >
   > Both are the Malipiero edition and I didn't see figures.  But he has
   realized the continuo in the organ part and that will assist to
   determine the harmonies.  Malipiero, the usual "Collected Edition" of
   Vivaldi's instrumental works, is "over edited" in my opinion.  In this
   case, given the original intrumentation, it is "under-edited."
   >
   > Best wishes to you and  Kathleen,
   >
   > Arthur
   > - Original Message -
   > From: "Mayes, Joseph" <[8]ma...@rowan.edu>
   > To: "G. Crona" <[9]kalei...@gmail.com>; "Lutelist"
   <[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   > Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2013 9:06 PM
   > Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi
   >
   >
   >> Two of my students are playing the G major concerto for two
   mandolins.
   >> They'd like me to play continuo on my archlute. Does anyone know
   where a
   >> bass part (with or without figures) could be obtained?
   >>
   >> Thanks,
   >>
   >> Joseph Mayes
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >> [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   &g

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Braig, Eugene]

. . . And The Julian Bream Consort's Fantasies Ayres and Dances, I believe 
originally released in 1988 on RCA, was just plain good . . . although I'm also 
biased by a bit of starry-eyed nostalgia when it comes to Bream.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
howard posner
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 1:20 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed


On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:20 AM, erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote:

> his recordings do not fit into what I like to hear, say Hopkinson 
> Smith and alumni.

If you can direct me to "Hopkinson Smith and Alumni play Britten and 
Villa-Lobos," I'd love to hear it.
--

To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Braig, Eugene]

I don't think I would dare to be so prescriptive of the musical activities of 
anybody who doesn't happen to be me.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
erne...@aquila.mus.br
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 2:35 PM
To: howard posner
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

This is a lute-talk, correct?
I did not know Britten and Villa-Lobos composed for the lute, they are 
certainly not known for it.
I know Bream played the lute, but his complete works collection is not too 
meaningfull for the lute today besides the historical (meaning the 1900-2000 
period) rediscovery he helped forward.
Generally speaking, we want to get more guitarists into the lute, not the other 
way around, isn't it?
Ernesto Ett
11-99 242120 4
11-28376692



Em 06.12.2013, às 16:19, howard posner  escreveu:


On Dec 6, 2013, at 8:20 AM, erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote:

> his recordings do not fit into what I like to hear, say Hopkinson 
> Smith and alumni.

If you can direct me to "Hopkinson Smith and Alumni play Britten and 
Villa-Lobos," I'd love to hear it.
--

To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Nails and lute playing

[Braig, Eugene]

The Barrios-as-first legend is batted around quite a bit, but I think that's 
due to his current popularity as a "mainstream" classical instrumentalist.  I 
suppose giving Barrios that credit depends upon if you're willing to consider 
accompanists.  Roy H. Butin, e.g., was a fine professional guitarist who used a 
thumbpick along with the fingers and appeared on many recordings accompanying 
several American classical mandolinists (most notably Samuel Siegel and 
Valentine Abt) beginning in 1908 (as far as I know, five years before Barrios' 
first).  There were a handful of others from that era, accompanists not always 
named.

Unfortunately, Segovia's era of popularity effectively (if temporarily) erased 
much of the collective memory of plucked "classical" music that wasn't suited 
to Segovia's personal tastes.  We're still recovering, and Barrios was simply 
one of those first "rediscoveries."

Best,
Eugene



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Wilke
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 9:04 AM
To: Sean Smith; lute; Dan Winheld
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nails and lute playing

Dan,


On Wed, 12/11/13, Dan Winheld  wrote:

> In fact, before Dupont's nylon
> came along, Agustin Barrios Mangore had to use steel strings, as the 
> greater part of his life and work was in South America- no place for 
> gut!

Barrios made a conscious decision to use steel strings. I've heard the argument 
that he did so because South America was too humid for gut, but that is not 
true as it was the normal string material for other classical guitarists in 
South America. This includes the likes of Domingo Prat and Segovia himself, who 
lived for many years in Uruguay. Barrios was alone in championing steel and he 
came in for criticism for it from his colleagues. (Segovia called it a "wire 
fence." Barrios said that Segovia was "deaf in heart.") 

Perhaps not coincidentally, Barrios was the first fingerstyle classical 
guitarist ever to record, all the way back in the day of acoustical recording 
technology. This is when performers played into a horn (not a microphone) which 
physically transferred the sonic vibrations through a stylus directly onto the 
recording medium. The sound source had to be quite loud for this to happen. In 
contrast, Vahdah Olcott-Bickford mentioned that Miguel Llobet tried to record 
in the 1910's but the results were unsatisfactory. More specifically, she said 
that, "acoustical recording was good for steel string instruments like the 
banjo and mandolin, but the classical guitar, with its gut strings, was more 
difficult to record.” Llobet did eventually record after electrical recording 
was invented. It seems that Barrios's steel strings were significantly louder 
than gut.
 
Chris


Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com


 
 On 12/10/2013 9:30 PM, Sean Smith wrote:
 >
 > I realize the guitar was strung in gut before nylon's  appearance. Should I 
 > assume it had thicker diameters and  higher tensions (?) than the lute 
 > strings of KR and JB -  that is, if I understand Allan's note correctly that 
 > they  played gut-strung lutes? Their lutes were post-war lutes and  could 
 > have been nylon, right?
 >
 > I'm still curious about the gut strings and how  successful they are on the 
 > lutes of the people who play with  nails. Does such a combination exist on 
 > this list?
 >
 > There are many historical guitars that date from  pre-nylon days, too, and I 
 > suspect a few players of same  (strung in gut?) on this list. Maybe someone 
 > could speak to  how gut strings last on them?
 >
 > I'm just honestly curious about how the metal fret  (where applicable) / 
 > nails / gut string experience plays  out. Surely they wore out quicker than 
 > nylon but where?
 why?
 >
 > Many years ago I saw an older Vandervogel lute/guitar  like that of my dad's 
 > (his from ~1950) but I believe older.
 That one had scalloped frets. Would this have been a way of  dealing w/ the 
gut/metal fret wear? Was this done on  classical guitars, too?
 >
 > Sean
 >
 >
 > On Dec 10, 2013, at 8:38 PM, sterling price wrote:
 >
 >   Regarding nails on gut strings--even  people like Segovia used nails on  > 
 >  gut for decades. I like those early  recordings of modern guitars strung  > 
 >  with gut. I think nylon strings came  about after WWII.
 >   Sterling
 >   On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:46 PM,  Sean Smith   >  
 > wrote:
 >   Just to be sure, he used nails on
 _gut_? Ragossinig, too? When I
 >   played those records in my childhood I  always assumed they were nylon  >  
 > strings. When would JB and KR have  moved to nylon?
 >   Sean
 >   On Dec 10, 2013, at 6:21 PM, Allan
 Alexander wrote:
 >   Sean
 >   Bream used nails, so I guess it
 started. So does Ragossnig
 >   Allan
 >>
 >> Since there appear to be lute players who use nails
 - a club I

[LUTE] Re: Mace

[Braig, Eugene]

However, once again, Mace offers this advice in acknowledging the antecedent: 
"strike . . . your strings with your nails, as some do, who maintain it the 
best way to play."  Mace's implication is that nail play was also commonplace 
and that tastes on this topic varied.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bruno Correia
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:40 PM
To: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Mace

   The reason, why the nails are not so good to draw sounds with, as the
   flesh.

   But on doing of this, take notice, that you strike not your strings
   with your nails, as some do, who maintain it the best way to play, but
   I do not; and for this reason; because the nail cannot draw so sweet a
   sound from a lute, as the nibble end of the flesh can do.

   I confess in a consort, it might do well enough, where the mellowness
   (which is the most excellent satisfaction from a lute) is lost in the
   crowd; but alone, I could never receive so good content from the nail,
   as from the flesh; (however, this being my opinion) let others do, what
   seems best to themselves.

   Thomas Mace (London, 1676).

   Pretty good advice from the English master.
   --
   Bruno Figueiredo

   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Braig, Eugene]

. . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and romantic-era 
repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations because Segovia didn't 
like it and instead opted to create a body of repertoire through transcription. 
 I don't think Segovia can be blamed for his tremendous popularity, but there 
is a danger in allowing the tastes of one person shape the state of an art.

Respectfully,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Bruno Correia
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 3:23 PM
To: lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

   Really? What about the others? What about Tarrega's disciples
   (specially Pujol), Barrios, and all the other latin american
   guitarists? They wouldn't exist without Segovia? I don't think so.

   There are so many forgotten names...


   2013/12/15 Chris Barker <[1]csbarker...@att.net>

 Sir,
 Respectfully I must remind you that Segovia's early 20th Century
 work made the classical guitar and related plucked instruments the
 popular things that they have become today.  We all owe him
 reverence for that.  Andres Segovia has been at rest for twenty six
 years.  Please help to make that rest peaceful.
 Chris Barker

   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tobiah
   Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:27 AM
   To: 'lutelist'
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
   On 12/14/2013 5:45 AM, Chris Barker wrote:
   > Re:  Gary's comments on Segovia...  If it were not for Segovia's
   > efforts, the guitar, lute, and kindred instruments would not occupy
   > the places they have today.  I was at a dinner put on by the old
   > Dallas Classical Guitar society almost a decade ago when the young
   > guitarist seated to my left referred to Andres Segovia "as just an
   > uninformed old man with poor performance practice who could be only
   be
   > heard on a bunch of scratchy LP"s.  I took my first guitar lessons in
   > 1958.  We all considered Andres Segovia a saint.  And now, much older
   > and wiser, are still of the same opinion, and we hold his critics in
   > great disdain.
   Are you referring to what his contributions to, and passion for the
   music did for its advancement?  I know little of that - only what I see
   on YouTube of his performances.  Allowing for possibly lesser recording
   engineering capability at the time, I find his tone anemic, his rhythm
   unmusically erratic, and his redeemable heart and passion as though it
   may be, fails to reach my heart through my admittedly unpolished ear.
   *Cringes and braces for the inevitable and surgically incisive
   dissection of his point of view*
   Tobiah
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   Bruno Figueiredo

   Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao
   historicamente informada no alaude e teorba.
   Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela
   Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro.

   --

References

   1. mailto:csbarker...@att.net
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Braig, Eugene]

Chapdelain was the first-ever winner of the Guitar Foundation of America 
competition, but now specializes in fingerstyle arrangements of pop music on 
steel-string guitar: http://www.michaelchapdelaine.com/.  He's now fond of 
taking the stage as a barefoot bohemian.  Discussing the Segovia masterclass 
with Michael over a pint of fine ale is much more entertaining than watching it 
on Youtube.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Ed Durbrow
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:00 AM
To: LuteNet list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

Jeez, that kid deserved a medal for courage under fire! He also still appeared 
to be brainwashed. Poor talented kid. Probably a venerated master by now.

On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:53 PM, David van Ooijen  wrote:

>   This is referred to often:
>   [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>   David
> 
>   ***
>   David van Ooijen
>   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>   [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>   ***
>   On 14 December 2013 12:44, gary <[4]magg...@sonic.net> wrote:
> 
> Recently, a message was posted referring to Andres Segovia as a
> "bully". I think that's a little harsh, I know it's become popular
> to bash Segovia and that he had a huge ego, but I don't recall him
> actually bullying anyone into agreeing with his views. It seems to
> me that he just expressed his views and his admirers, of which there
> were many, gleefully adopted them as guitar gospel, bedazzled by his
> mastery of the guitar. I have never heard of any actual bullying on
> Segovia's part. Rather, the onus for any intimidation would be on
> the shear number and ardor of his admirers.
> Gary
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiAbqfaYGwk
>   2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>   3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>   4. mailto:magg...@sonic.net
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/





--

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Braig, Eugene]

Gary questions, "How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from 
'shaping the tastes of an art'?"

I really didn't frame my own argument very well.  One doesn't and probably 
shouldn't even try excepting with regard to one's own tastes.  I'm not one to 
embrace the popular by virtue of its simple popularity; I tend to go looking 
for stuff I like.  If that happens to be Segovia, Chapdelain, O'Dette, 
bubblegum pop, or Scandinavian prog, so be it.  I suspect that sentiment is 
commonplace among those who participate in something like a lute list.  I 
suppose I just wish more of the masses were more like those of us engaged in 
discourse here.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
gary
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:08 PM
To: lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from "shaping the 
tastes of an art"? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during 
his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. 
Popularity is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair 
to fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own 
taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was 
protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music.

Gary


On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote:
> . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and 
> romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations 
> because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of 
> repertoire through transcription.  I don't think Segovia can be blamed 
> for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the 
> tastes of one person shape the state of an art.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Eugene
> 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum

[Braig, Eugene]

". . . quasi-orgasmic relish" is worthy of a tittering *tee-hee*.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Wilke
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:27 AM
To: Jarosław Lipski; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from 
the [LUTE]-forum

   This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis
   that early music performance practice today is really a modern
   fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic
   preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less,
   metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music
   nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized
   industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized
   regularity of product made possible by the use of computers.
   It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of
   Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation
   today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects
   of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the
   spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma.
   "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something
   those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to
   consider: we base every choice upon..."
   (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the
   heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the
   scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic
   choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he
   suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for
   a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.)
   "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with
   quasi-orgasmic relish.
   To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb
   them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a
   perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period
   recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing,
   according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered
   through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our
   current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for
   music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded
   artifact survives?
   Chris
   Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
   www.christopherwilke.com
   On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski
wrote:
   WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz.
   23:10:
   >
   > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote:
   >
   >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious
   minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century
   musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"?
   >
   > Not at all.  Implicit in the whole early music movement is the
   assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was
   outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia.
   Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that
   became outdated when we learned better.
   >
   Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music
   interpretations.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Lutenist Christopher Wilke streaming on WOSU radio

[Braig, Eugene]

A little plug copied directly from Facebook:

Columbus Guitar Society guest artist Christopher Wilke will be appearing on a 
live interview/performance segment with WOSU Classical 101's Boyce Lancaster, 
9:30 am (ET), Friday, 24 January 2014. It can be heard both live on the radio 
via 101.1 FM in Columbus, OH, US or streaming on the web via links posted on 
http://wosu.org/2012/classical101/.  Be certain to listen in on Chris' 
insightful on-air appearance and purchase tickets for his Columbus concert the 
following evening!


Eugene C. Braig IV
Artistic Director
Phone: 614-561-9204
e-mail: cgs.eug...@gmail.com

The Columbus Guitar Society
Capital University, Conservatory of Music
1 College & Main 
Columbus, OH 43209
USA

http://columbusguitarsociety.org/





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[LUTE] Re: Meet a relative - Tanbur

[Braig, Eugene]

Groovy.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Rob MacKillop
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:05 AM
To: Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Meet a relative - Tanbur

   I've started studying the Turkish tanbur, which might be seen as a
   relative of the lute. Here's a video of me introducing the instrument,
   and playing a tuneful exercise from a tutor book.
   [1]http://youtu.be/onwPFBz6WBc
   More info on the notation system used, and videos of some masters who
   really do know how to play it, can be found on my
   website: [2]http://robmackillop.net/tanbur/
   Rob MacKillop
   Edinburgh

   --

References

   1. http://youtu.be/onwPFBz6WBc
   2. http://robmackillop.net/tanbur/


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[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437

[Braig, Eugene]

Thanks, David.  Artfully delivered.  Think of him whatever you will, but I'm 
surprised nobody has mentioned that Segovia popularized this piece in solo 
guitar transcription.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
David van Ooijen
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:27 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437

   Silly me, wrong link. Here's Haendel:
   [1]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   On 26 February 2014 19:18, David van Ooijen
   <[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> wrote:

  The arrangement was so popular, I decided to make a quick video. A
   joy
  to play, and much needed distraction from figuring the endless pile
  continuo parts.
  Warning: guitar content!

[1][5]http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE
David
--
 References
1. [6]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ

   To get on or off this list see list information at

 [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ
   2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   5. http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE
   6. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute publications

[Braig, Eugene]

Agreed.  I don't know that there's much player crossover between notation 
formats, even among those who do work from both on an instrument-by-situation 
basis.  If you have the ability and resources to generate two separate 
editions, that might better serve.

That said, if I recall correctly (and please forgive me for citing Mel Bay for 
anything), Ronn McFarlane's "The Scottish Lute" was released with one version 
staple bound with a proper, glossy, cover-stock cover (I can't remember which: 
standard notation or tablature) and the version other as a paper-cover, 
part-style insert.  That was also effective in not requiring the excessive page 
turns of a parallel-notation edition and only requiring one publication release.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Tobiah
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:54 PM
To: Anthony Hart; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute publications

On 03/19/2014 05:45 AM, Anthony Hart wrote:
> Following my previous posts I am in the final stages of preparing the
> lute sonatas of Antonino Reggio. The delema is should I include the
> tablature in the samr volume as the staff edition of would it be better
> to publish two separate volumes. I intend to publish 4 volumes of 6
> sonatas each.

As a exclusive reader of staff, I greatly appreciate having it printed alone.  
I see little benefit to the usual practice of interlacing the staff and 
tablature together; it seems to me that this practice serves only to 
inconvenience the reader of either version, doubling the number of page turns.

Toby



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[LUTE] Re: Frottola, Tromboncino, Sorini

[Braig, Eugene]

Very nice.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Roman Turovsky
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:39 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Frottola, Tromboncino, Sorini

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNmeGzjK6Ic

A truly fine performance, without histrionics.
RT



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Greetings Konstantin,

This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least 
peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of interest.

I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in very 
widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian places.  In large 
part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian nobleman named Wrtby.  This 
led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the works to designate "leuto" were intended 
for a baritone voiced mandora from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering 
Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).

On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments 
(1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate "mandolino" to 
be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') 
played with a plectrum and the Bohemian "leuto" works to be for the same 
instrument played with the fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins 
and cello-driven basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the 
"leuto" works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to 
hear the "leuto" works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated, a common 
short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.

I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque 
mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers until into 
the classical era.  That is how I play the instrument.  Unfortunately, most 
performers who come to baroque incarnations of mandolin seem to approach it 
after having studied the modern mandolin.  Almost universally, they play it 
with a plectrum (usually a quill, and there are some who argue a quill was 
never applied to any gut-strung mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would 
be more appropriate).  In spite of the likelihood of period performance 
practice, recordings of baroque mandolins played with the fingers are 
relatively rare.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Konstantin Shchenikov
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute

   Dear friends!
   I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi
   concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
   experience with it?
   Could you point me to some research?
   I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
   baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
   mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
   quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
   plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers
   or have to play with plectrum?
   And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
   And any other information is very appreciated!
   Greetings from St.Petersburg,
   Konstantin

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Indeed.  He now concertizes playing Vivaldi's lute works on archlute.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
howard posner
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

On Jun 4, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Braig, Eugene  wrote:

> On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments 
> (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate "mandolino" 
> to be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., 
> [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the Bohemian "leuto" works to 
> be for the same instrument played with the fingers.

Within a few years after making that recording, Paul no longer thought that the 
Vivaldi works were for a treble instrument. 



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[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

.And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed out here 
in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus something I can 
cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original inquiry.  It would be nice to 
see more published on this specific field.

Best,
Eugene


From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

Dear Eugene,

Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count Wrtby's 
origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in D (the E 
mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made any significant 
inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further, the writing of Vivaldi's 
'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a rather higher pitched instrument 
in nominal G (or even A) which is, of course, simply the old lute tuning which 
seems to have persisted in Italy through much of the 18th century and is 
reflected in various sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments 
made at the time as well as in paintings of the period. 

There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos from Bob 
Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi and are clearly 
labelled for archlute.

But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is 
unlikely (however tuned).

regards

Martyn

____
From: "Braig, Eugene" 
To: lute list  
Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

Greetings Konstantin,

This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least 
peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of interest.

I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in very 
widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian places.  In large 
part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian nobleman named Wrtby.  This 
led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the works to designate "leuto" were intended 
for a baritone voiced mandora from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering 
Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).

On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of Instruments 
(1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to designate "mandolino" to 
be intended for the five or six course mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') 
played with a plectrum and the Bohemian "leuto" works to be for the same 
instrument played with the fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins 
and cello-driven basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the 
"leuto" works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to 
hear the "leuto" works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated, a common 
short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.

I think the general consensus among those who really care about baroque 
mandolin is that it was probably ordinarily played with the fingers until into 
the classical era.  That is how I play the instrument.  Unfortunately, most 
performers who come to baroque incarnations of mandolin seem to approach it 
after having studied the modern mandolin.  Almost universally, they play it 
with a plectrum (usually a quill, and there are some who argue a quill was 
never applied to any gut-strung mandolin types: that a sliver of cherry would 
be more appropriate).  In spite of the likelihood of period performance 
practice, recordings of baroque mandolins played with the fingers are 
relatively rare.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Konstantin Shchenikov
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 2:51 AM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Vivaldi solo lute

  Dear friends!
  I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi
  concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
  experience with it?
  Could you point me to some research?
  I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
  baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
  mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
  quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
  plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers
  or have to play with plectrum?
  And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
  And any other information is very appreciated!
  Greetings from St.Petersburg,
  Konstantin

  --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

   Vivaldi clearly specified "mandolino" for the small lute relative
   common to his time and place when he intended it.  If he'd intended
   that octave in RV 540, I suspect he would have specified mandolino
   there as well.  He simply did not.
   RV 540 is a special case.  It was written specifically for a visit to
   Venice by the electoral prince at Dresden, and as such, could be argued
   it was likely intended for performance by S. L. Weiss who was famously
   employed by that court.  I think it likely Weiss would have played it
   on a D-minor lute.  That said, Johann Adolph Hasse also worked at the
   Dresden court and wrote a decent concerto for mandolino (as discussed
   here: g-b-e'-a'-d''-g'').
   While I don't think it likely that RV 540 was originally intended for
   the mandolino, that's no reason to not perform it on that instrument,
   enjoy doing so, and name it an arrangement.  If you do decide to play
   it on that instrument, feel free to play it with the fingers.
   Best,
   Eugene
 __

   From: Konstantin Shchenikov [konstantin.n...@gmail.com]
   Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:34 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Thank you all for your interesring comments!
   Just to clarify, I played RV 93 and RV 540 several times on my archlute
   and it was OK as for me as for the other musicians and listeners. But
   now an ensemble engaged me for RV 540 and music director mad about
   hearing the lute in the same octave with viola d'amore because in his
   opinion music very close to double concertos for 2 violins and here
   should be the similar - two instruments in the same octave.
   That's why I start to look for some researches and papers.
   Thank you, Eugene, I've found mail archives and it makes clear some
   rough spots for me.
   Sincerely yours,
   Konstantin.
   2014-06-04 20:23 GMT+04:00 Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu>:

 Indeed.  He now concertizes playing Vivaldi's lute works on
 archlute.
 Eugene

   -Original Message-
   From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of howard posner
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM

   To: lute list
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

   On Jun 4, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Braig, Eugene <[4]brai...@osu.edu> wrote:

   > On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of
   Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to
   designate "mandolino" to be intended for the five or six course
   mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the
   Bohemian "leuto" works to be for the same instrument played with the
   fingers.

   Within a few years after making that recording, Paul no longer thought
   that the Vivaldi works were for a treble instrument.

   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:brai...@osu.edu
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

   We've discussed these before as well, but for the benefit of Konstantin
   et alia . . .
   Here is a pair of beautiful pieces by Giuseppe Presbler clearly built
   as a matched set and housed by the US's Metropolitan Museum of art:
   [1]http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?&wh
   at=Musical+instruments|Bone&who=Giuseppe+Presbler&pg=1
   I was privileged to be able to personally inspect and measure these
   pieces before they went on display for the public.  The smaller piece
   conforms to typical expectations of the period's "mandolino."  The Met
   catalogues the larger as "mandola" in line with recent literature like
   Morey or Tyler & Sparks.  However, there is also a certain elegance in
   naming it "liuto" as a diminutive of the "arciliuto."  As such, with a
   likely range of open strings of G to g' (in this case with one added
   bass), one octave below mandolino (although I would expect with a more
   lute-like positioning of the interval of a third), it makes a tempting
   alternative for Vivaldi's "leuto."
   Best,
   Eugene
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:03 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   I'm working on it!
   Martyn
 __

   From: "Braig, Eugene" 
   To: lute list 
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   .And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed
   out here in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus
   something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original
   inquiry.  It would be nice to see more published on this specific
   field.
   Best,
   Eugene
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 11:30 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Dear Eugene,
   Without wanting to re-open a debate of over 10 years ago, despite Count
   Wrtby's origins I'm a bit sceptical that the German/Bohemian mandora in
   D (the E mandora didn't really surface until later in the century) made
   any significant inroads into Italy in the early 18th century. Further,
   the writing of Vivaldi's 'leuto' parts is, in my view, more suited to a
   rather higher pitched instrument in nominal G (or even A) which is, of
   course, simply the old lute tuning which seems to have persisted in
   Italy through much of the 18th century and is reflected in various
   sources including the Dalla Casa MS and extant instruments made at the
   time as well as in paintings of the period.
   There are also, of course, other works (including the Anon concertos
   from Bob Spencer's collection) which are very similar to the Vivaldi
   and are clearly labelled for archlute.
   But I agree that a small 'mandolin' like instrument playing at pitch is
   unlikely (however tuned).
   regards
   Martyn
   
   From: "Braig, Eugene" <[3]brai...@osu.edu>
   To: lute list <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 15:50
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   Greetings Konstantin,
   This topic has received some discussion here in the past, at least
   peripherally.  Searching the archives might reveal some discussion of
   interest.
   I don't think the treble mandore/mandora/mandwr/what-have-you was in
   very widespread use by Vivaldi's time, certainly not in Italian
   places.  In large part, the lute works were dedicated to a Bohemian
   nobleman named Wrtby.  This led Eric Liefeld to speculate that the
   works to designate "leuto" were intended for a baritone voiced mandora
   from D (Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. Lute Society
   of America Quarterly 28(1):4-8.).
   On O'Dette's recording of the Vivaldi works with the Parley of
   Instruments (1986, Hyperion CDA66160), he speculated the works to
   designate "mandolino" to be intended for the five or six course
   mandolino (i.e., [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'') played with a plectrum and the
   Bohemian "leuto" works to be for the same instrument played with the
   fingers.  Personally, given the spread of violins and cello-driven
   basso continuo, I think adding mandolino as soloist to the "leuto"
   works sounds to crowd too many voices in the treble range.  I prefer to
   hear the "leuto" works with the lutenist an octave lower than notated,
   a common short hand carried on in guitar music to this day.
   I think the general consensus among those who really care

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Furthermore, there does seem to be some precedence for "mandola" simply being 
used to describe the six-course mandolino when that low g was a relatively new 
feature.

For example, Dalla Casa's (1759) archlute book includes a "Scala per Mandolino" 
for interpreting tablature; open courses are given as b-e'-a'-d''-g''.  The 
book also includes four works for "mandolino" with "arcileuto" accompaniment as 
well as one unattributed three-movement "Suonata . . . a Mandola e Basso del 
Arcileuto."  It would seem very odd to me to write a sonata specifically for 
mandola with archlute in a subservient accompaniment role (rather than an 
equal-footing duo role) if the mandola was taken to have the same range as the 
archlute's fretted strings given the similarity in timbre and technique.  It 
seems more likely that the mandola occupied an octave-higher range, exactly as 
notated.  In notation, the mandola work's range differs from those for 
mandolino only in having a treble line that extends below b but never below g.  
This obviously falls outside the range for five-course mandolino given by the 
manuscript, but is perfectly in line with a typical six-cours!
 e "mandolino."

The Stradivari pattern labeled "Musura del mandola granda" was also what would 
be considered mandolin-sized.  The length of the entire neck to the outermost 
edge of the partially scrolled pegbox is 375 mm.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 8:38 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

   Yes indeed Eugene,
   This is one of the very instruments I had in mind when earlier
   referring to extant Italian instruments newly made in the 18th century.
   As you suggest, the identification of it as a 'mandola' has no real
   basis: it is a leuto (or liuto) and I have suggested it is precisely
   the type of instrument for the Vivaldi (and other) unless additional
   basses are required when an arciliuto is necessary. But note paintings
   of the period often show just 7 or 8 course 'lutes' in Italy.
   A particular feature of 18th century Italian 'lutes' which
   distinguishes them from mandoras and the like is the length of the
   neck: usually only allowing 7 or 8 fret spaces whereas the mandoras
   generally allow 9 or 10. Roses are also often inset in extant Italian
   lutes of the period - tho some late mandora/gallichon roses are too so
   this isn't always reliable as a distinctive identifier.
   Martyn
 __

   From: "Braig, Eugene" 
   To: Martyn Hodgson ; lute list
   
   Sent: Thursday, 5 June 2014, 13:04
   Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   We've discussed these before as well, but for the benefit of Konstantin
   et alia . . .
   Here is a pair of beautiful pieces by Giuseppe Presbler clearly built
   as a matched set and housed by the US's Metropolitan Museum of Art:
   [1]http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search?&wh
   at=Musical+instruments|Bone&who=Giuseppe+Presbler&pg=1
   I was privileged to be able to personally inspect and measure these
   pieces before they went on display for the public.  The smaller piece
   conforms to typical expectations of the period's "mandolino."  The Met
   catalogues the larger as "mandola" in line with recent literature like
   Morey or Tyler & Sparks.  However, there is also a certain elegance in
   naming it "liuto" as a diminutive of the "arciliuto."  As such, with a
   likely range of open strings of G to g' (in this case with one added
   bass), one octave below mandolino (although I would expect with a more
   lute-like positioning of the interval of a third), it makes a tempting
   alternative for Vivaldi's "leuto."
   Best,
   Eugene
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson [hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2014 2:03 AM
   To: Braig, Eugene; lute list
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   I'm working on it!
   Martyn
 __

   From: "Braig, Eugene" 
   To: lute list 
   Sent: Wednesday, 4 June 2014, 17:21
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute
   .And I also tend to agree with you in this case, Martyn (as we hashed
   out here in the past).  However, Eric's article is published, is thus
   something I can cite, and seems relevant to Konstantin's original
   inquiry.  It would be nice to see more published on this specific
   field.
   Best,
   Eugene
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[2]hodgsonmar...@ya

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

[Braig, Eugene]

Hideki is a good guy.  He used a six-course mandolino played punteado to 
recorded all the mandolino and mandola works (plus two extra works for good 
measure) compiled in Dalla Casa's book (1759).  John Schneiderman provided the 
accompaniment on archlute.

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Ed Durbrow
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 7:50 PM
To: LuteNet list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi solo lute

You should ask Hideki Yamaya. He's done quite a bit with it. I can't keep all 
the names and instruments straight in my mind, but I think you should ask 
Hideki Yamaya. He's done quite a bit with such instruments. 
http://www.hyamaya.com

 
On Jun 4, 2014, at 3:51 PM, Konstantin Shchenikov  
wrote:

>   Dear friends!
>   I am curious abour mandore (treble lute) as solo instrument for Vivaldi
>   concertos and trio sonatas with liuto obligato. Have anyone an
>   experience with it?
>   Could you point me to some research?
>   I am especially interesting about how far it from (or how close to)
>   baroque mandolin? Makes it sence to use baroque mandolin instead of
>   mandore? I've read somewhere that renaissance mandore technique was
>   quite similar to renaissance lute and fingers were in used, not
>   plectrum. What's your suggestions about 18 century? Could I use fingers
>   or have to play with plectrum?
>   And the last, do you know who can built such a thing?
>   And any other information is very appreciated!
>   Greetings from St.Petersburg,
>   Konstantin
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/





--

[LUTE] Re: 15th century duo for gittern and dulcimer

[Braig, Eugene]

I loved it.  Thanks for this effort, Stuart.  Did you know Ensemble Gabriele 
Leone recorded the same piece using medieval gittern on their 2000 release, 
Cinq Siècles de Mandolines: 1300-1800?

http://www.ensemble-gabriele-leone.org/egl/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=10&lang=fr


Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
WALSH STUART
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 7:36 AM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] 15th century duo for gittern and dulcimer

A little experiment - a 15th century German keyboard piece but played on a 
gittern with a dulcimer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WVktwUonYA



Stuart

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[LUTE] Re: 15th century duo for gittern and dulcimer

[Braig, Eugene]

(Sorry for reversing the format of your reply.  I am a reluctant slave to 
Microsoft's evil automated protocols.)

Groovy!  What plectrum did you use here?  I use several incarnations of 
plectrum depending on era of music and instrument at hand.  . . . And, in spite 
of my sinistral tendencies, my plectrum, punteado, and occasional rasgueado 
efforts are always executed with the right hand.

While Jean-Paul certainly plays it faster, the effect is no more entertaining.  
Cheers!

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
WALSH STUART
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 11:29 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 15th century duo for gittern and dulcimer


> I loved it.  Thanks for this effort, Stuart.  Did you know Ensemble Gabriele 
> Leone recorded the same piece using medieval gittern on their 2000 release, 
> Cinq Siècles de Mandolines: 1300-1800?
>
> http://www.ensemble-gabriele-leone.org/egl/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=1
> 0&lang=fr
>
>
> Best,
> Eugene

Thanks Eugene. No I don't know this recording.  Jean-Paul Bazin has an 
incredible technique and I suppose he played it ten times faster (and more 
skilfully) with divisions, or whatever they were called then. I met him many 
years ago . Very nice chap too. I also like the way he and the group play music 
from different eras.

I'm a left-hander like you, Eugene but I play right-handedly. I really like 
trying to play with a plectrum every so often. It's just so different. I think 
I've come to terms with fingerstyle with the right hand (as a left-handed 
person) but plectrum technique  is something else. But worth a go, I think.


(also I tuned the dulcimer to Pythagorean. Well, I think I did. I tuned the 
dial on my Korg tuner to Pythagorean and took it from there and then the 
gittern to the dulcimer. The dulcimer, as I have tuned it, doesn't have a C 
sharp so I tuned the gittern C sharp to the Korg. It sounds odd to me but seems 
pretty close to what the Korg claims to be a C#.)



Stuart




>
> -Original Message-
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
> Behalf Of WALSH STUART
> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 7:36 AM
> To: lutelist Net
> Subject: [LUTE] 15th century duo for gittern and dulcimer
>
> A little experiment - a 15th century German keyboard piece but played on a 
> gittern with a dulcimer:
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WVktwUonYA
>
>
>
> Stuart
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus 
> protection is active.
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>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: 15th century duo (left-handers playing right-handedly)

[Braig, Eugene]

RE: "a Worshipful Company of Left-Handed Standard Lute Players," perhaps there 
should be!

RE: plectrum play, I've simply been at it so long, I can't remember the 
specific mechanics of my youthful struggles.  I started playing/strumming 
old-time, American folk music with my Grandfather around 38 years ago.  I came 
to classical music and punteado more than a decade later.

Some of my most pleasurable moments with music is modern "classical" (i.e., 
post-1880) music for mandolin.  Of course, plectrum play (tortoise or 
synthetics) dominates there.

For period plectra, where quill is appropriate, I've taken to fabricating them 
of clear Bic pens.  I like real quill better (harder, thinner, etc.), but it's 
inconsistent, and only about half of them turn out to my liking.  Here's one of 
my synthetic quill efforts: 
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/p417x417/132099_1612644309706_623553_o.jpg

Best,
Eugene


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of WALSH 
STUART [s.wa...@ntlworld.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2014 5:06 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 15th century duo (left-handers playing right-handedly)

On 06/06/2014 23:06, Braig, Eugene wrote:
>
> Groovy!  What plectrum did you use here?  I use several incarnations of 
> plectrum depending on era of music and instrument at hand.  . . . And, in 
> spite of my sinistral tendencies, my plectrum, punteado, and occasional 
> rasgueado efforts are always executed with the right hand.

Eugene I had forgotten that you are left-handed but play (in your
preferred usage) standard instruments. Is there also a Worshipful
Company of Left-Handed Standard Lute Players (i.e. playing
right-handedly), I wonder?

For a plectrum I'm using a length of guitar string with a bit of masking
tape. I gleaned this from a discussion on this list some time. I've
tried many kinds of plectrum but me the main issue is plectrum playing
itself, rather than the plectrum. How do you get on with playing with a
plectrum in your right hand when you are left handed? You have noted
that both hands equally are involved in complex tasks in playing a
plucked instrument. But

Usually in music, if I have realistic goals, I can fairly well come to
be able to play things (e.g. quite difficult passages) with careful,
slow practice. But this doesn't happen ever with plectrum issues. I can
practice a troublesome passage countless times over a period of time,
pick up the instrument and plectrum and I'll be just as likely to bungle
it... or get it right. It's fascinating  in an annoying way, really.



Stuart



>
> While Jean-Paul certainly plays it faster, the effect is no more 
> entertaining.  Cheers!
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
>


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[LUTE] Re: Birds

[Braig, Eugene]

Perhaps requiring a little too much work, but how about arrangements of the 
original pieces Respighi arranged for orchestra in his suite The Birds?  At 
least "The Dove" was by lutenist Jacques de Gallot.

Best,
Eugene


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Eloy 
Cruz [eloyc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 11:58 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Birds

Dear collective wisdom

We've been invited to play at an early  music festival. The theme this year
will be birds. Do you know any piece about birds for baroque guitar or
theorbo?

Thanks a lot

Regards


eloy




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[LUTE] Re: Appropriateness of play list

[Braig, Eugene]

I have a spare mandolin I can sell you.  *wink, wink*

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Edward C. Yong
Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2014 1:04 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Appropriateness of play list

Hi fellow lutenetters!

So I've been asked to do an Italian restaurant gig in July, two sets of thirty 
minutes each.

Should I bother selecting Italian music appropriate for a specific time period 
- e.g. dances from Negri and Caroso? Or should I just play through '58 Very 
Easy Pieces for Renaissance Lute'? 

Does anyone else get into these struggles for 'authenticity'? I doubt anyone 
would even notice if I played an all-English repertoire of Greensleeves, 
Packington's Pound, and Fortune my Foe on repeat, but I'd like to be a bit 
better than that.

Edward Chrysogonus Yong
edward.y...@gmail.com






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[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.

[Braig, Eugene]

Same terminology commonly used here in the US regarding the French-polish 
process . . . but usually followed by a homonymous giggle or snigger.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 11:16 AM
To: Geoff Gaherty; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.

   A 'rubber' in this context isn't an eraser - the other meaning for the
   term outside the USA - much less a condom! It's a piece of cloth loaded
   with a finish which is 'rubbed' onto the surface. The terminology is
   fairly old and also commonly used by French polishers for their spirit
   finishes.
   MH
 __

   From: Geoff Gaherty 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Monday, 28 July 2014, 13:03
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.
   On 2014-07-28, 2:52 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   > Apply sparingly with a rubber, wipe off any excess and leave for
   >several weeks to more fully oxidise and harden.
   Remind us what "rubber" means in the UK.  In North America it means
   "condom"!
   Geoff
   --
   Geoff Gaherty
   Foxmead Observatory
   Coldwater, Ontario, Canada
   [1]http://www.gaherty.ca
   [2]http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.gaherty.ca/
   2. http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.

[Braig, Eugene]

That abysmal Segovian cocked wrist is largely passé as modern guitarists 
outgrow the memory of Segovia's influence.  It has some holders on among those 
who still believe Segovia's is THE way.  However, most modern players of note 
(especially the fiery young hotheads who win competitions) opt for a much more 
natural (and more conducive to long-term functionality) straight-wrist playing 
position.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martin Shepherd
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 2:16 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bare spot on soundboard.

Another thing to consider is the height of the strings above the soundboard - 
on a modern "classical" guitar, the height is much greater than on a typical 
renaissance (or baroque) lute, so putting the little finger (pinky) down makes 
no sense.  I think Sor did it, but he had a different guitar.

Tongue-not-entirely-in-cheek: if you want to talk about "inefficient" 
technique, just look at the horrific bend in the wrist which is considered 
normal on the (classical) guitar, and causes all kinds of problems.  
Unfortunately our greatest expert has just passed away, and can no longer add 
his voice

Martin  



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[LUTE] Schiffleholz mandora?

[Braig, Eugene]

Note this video of Schiffleholz mandora music shared at the lute Ning site: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3sx9P0Gmk

This is all but one movement exactly of what I know as Brescianello's sixth 
partita for colachon.  I know that some have doubted the attribution of the 
Brescianello partitas based on stylistic considerations.  I don't know enough 
about Schiffleholz to know the source for this material.  Can anybody here spin 
this yarn for me?  I've also asked for input from Rod, the Ning poster, 
directly.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Schiffleholz mandora?

[Braig, Eugene]

I would have expected so, but note that I copied and pasted the name directly 
from the video as posted by Rod to both YouTube and Ning.

Best,
Eugene



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Rainer
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 1:24 PM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Schiffleholz mandora?

Schiffelholz, not schiffle :)

Rainer

On 08.09.2014 15:32, Braig, Eugene wrote:
> Note this video of Schiffleholz mandora music shared at the lute Ning site:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3sx9P0Gmk
>
> This is all but one movement exactly of what I know as Brescianello's sixth 
> partita for colachon.  I know that some have doubted the attribution of the 
> Brescianello partitas based on stylistic considerations.  I don't know enough 
> about Schiffleholz to know the source for this material.  Can anybody here 
> spin this yarn for me?  I've also asked for input from Rod, the Ning poster, 
> directly.
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Schiffleholz mandora?

[Braig, Eugene]

. . . And I just checked back on Ning today to discover this response posted by 
Rod on 8 September (note that he has corrected the spelling of "Schiffelholz" 
in this reply to me):

"Thanks Eugene! Excellent response! The 'discussion' as to whether 
Brescianello, or Schiffelholz composed these high quality works for the 18th 
century Mandora/Gallichon is just what I'd hoped for. Many say that the 
existing works for other instruments by  Brescianello  do not match 
stylistically with these works for the mandora, but that Schiffelholz was a 
known composer for the Mandora, and the style of these pieces matches extant 
works for other instruments by this composer. Misattributed compositions? 
Evidence please!"


This "evidence" is exactly what I would love to see.  Does it exist?

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Braig, Eugene
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 2:24 PM
To: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Schiffleholz mandora?

I would have expected so, but note that I copied and pasted the name directly 
from the video as posted by Rod to both YouTube and Ning.

Best,
Eugene



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Rainer
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 1:24 PM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Schiffleholz mandora?

Schiffelholz, not schiffle :)

Rainer

On 08.09.2014 15:32, Braig, Eugene wrote:
> Note this video of Schiffleholz mandora music shared at the lute Ning site:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3sx9P0Gmk
>
> This is all but one movement exactly of what I know as Brescianello's sixth 
> partita for colachon.  I know that some have doubted the attribution of the 
> Brescianello partitas based on stylistic considerations.  I don't know enough 
> about Schiffleholz to know the source for this material.  Can anybody here 
> spin this yarn for me?  I've also asked for input from Rod, the Ning poster, 
> directly.
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: A.O. Sychra: 2 quadrilles for seven-string guitar

[Braig, Eugene]

Of course, Julian, the Russian tuning is quite different.  You'll need a 
different set of strings to balance tension and tone.

Best,
Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Julian Templeman
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 6:03 AM
To: Ed Durbrow
Cc: Stuart Walsh; LuteNet list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: A.O. Sychra: 2 quadrilles for seven-string guitar

   This is indeed lovely. I have a seven-string classical
   
(http://www.sheehans.com/product/martinez-mcg80-7-string-classical-guitar-spruce-top/mcg80s7/)
 so I may well give these a try.
   I'm very pleased with this instrument, because at a pinch it helps me
   learn and practice lute pieces when I can't (or don't want to) take a
   lute with me...
   jt

   On 30 November 2014 at 08:05, Ed Durbrow <[2]edurb...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Delightful salon music.
 On Nov 29, 2014, at 5:47 AM, WALSH STUART <[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
 wrote:
 > The seven-string Russian guitar in G is a lovely instrument but
 the string spacing is very close making it rather difficult to play.
 Modern made seven-string guitars in Russia seem to be the same as
 older ones in this respect.
 >
 > Here are two quadrilles from a set of five (plus a waltz) by A. O.
 Sychra: quadrilles 4 and 5. These quadrilles are like little rondos.
 >
 > [4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSNGukRKWRk
 >
 >
 > Stuart
 >
 > ---
 > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus
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 >
 >
 >
 > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 [7]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
 [8]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
 [9]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 --

   --
   Templeman Consulting Limited
   IT Consulting and Training

   --

References

   1. 
http://www.sheehans.com/product/martinez-mcg80-7-string-classical-guitar-spruce-top/mcg80s7/
   2. mailto:edurb...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSNGukRKWRk
   5. http://www.avast.com/
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   8. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   9. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

[LUTE] Re: guitar temperament

[Braig, Eugene]

In addition, Bartolotti ends each passacaille with a chord to introduce the key 
of the one to follow.  On the surface, the implication is at least for the 
possibility of through performance.  I can't imagine how that could work 
without equal temperament.

Eugene

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of 
Dominic Robillard [ubaldrosa...@hotmail.de]
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:12 PM
Cc: lute list lute list
Subject: [LUTE] guitar temperament

   Hi luters,
   Bartolotti starts with  a passacaille in book I. Each passacaille
   modulates to a different key.  Was he ahead of Wagner?  Were performers
   of passacailles through all keys allowed to stop to tune, and change
   fret spacing within a work?  Was that okay and normal for the audience?
   Was there an audience?   Equal temperament sounds so bad, it just can't
   be.
   I refuse to stop using meantone, 1/6, but I can't seem to get passed
   the 4th fret on my guitar.  How many tastinos will it take?  I was told
   by pros, including Stubbs, that things get looser up there, but I think
   that is just continuo talk.  Even playing Sanz  doesn't pan out, can
   anyone help?
   Dominic

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Guitar temperament

[Braig, Eugene]

However, of course, equal temperament allowed exploitation of modulation in a 
way not permitted by other temperament schemes set by frets or keys.  Pick your 
scheme to serve your musical intent (or that of your ensemble partners), and 
there's nothing wrong with whatever that is (equal included).  The guitar of 
any era, with a fully frettable neck across its whole range and without 
diapasons in most cases (regarding both features, unlike most later lute kin), 
is particularly well suited to modulation.  It is thus well suited to being 
able to fully exploit any benefits of equal temperament.  We've been 'round 
these parts before, including Duffin's text.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Roland Hogman
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 1:39 PM
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Guitar temperament

   Hello!
   For a nice introduction to the subject: How equal temperament ruined
   harmony by Ross W. Duffin ISBN 978-0-393-33420-3 (paperback)
   All the best!
   Roland Hogman

   2012/1/19 Stewart McCoy <[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>

 Dear Dominic,
 It has to be equal temperament.
 The question of temperament crops up from time to time on this list,
 and
 some subscribers have expressed strong views either for or against
 having fretted instruments in equal temperament. Our debate echoes
 the
 same debate musicians had during the 16th and 17th century.
 Those in favour of unequal temperament will refer to evidence such
 as:
 1) 16th-century vihuela players moving the 4th fret for the sake of
 pieces in flat keys, e.g. Luis Milan in 1536;
 2) Christopher Simpson's _Compendium_ in 1667 describing how some
 viol
 players and theorbo men had an extra first fret on their instrument.
 Those in favour of equal temperament will refer to:
 1) Galilei espousing equal temperament for lutes in 1582 with his
 18:17
 ratio for the placing of frets;
 2) Praetorius stating unequivocally in 1619 that lutes and viols
 were
 fretted in equal temperament.
 Much of the evidence may be found in Mark Lindley's excellent
 _Lutes,
 Viols & Temperaments_ (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1984).
 One
 may fairly quibble about his dubious conclusion that Valderrabano
 must
 have used equal temperament (page 22), but there is a wealth of
 information on the subject supporting both sides of the argument.
 Your evidence derived from Bartolotti is an important contribution
 to
 the debate, and adds weight to the argument that baroque guitars
 were
 fretted in equal temperament.
 Best wishes,
 Stewart McCoy.
 -Original Message-
 From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Dominic Robillard
 Sent: 18 January 2012 23:12
 Cc: lute list lute list
 Subject: [LUTE] guitar temperament
   Hi luters,
   Bartolotti starts with  a passacaille in book I. Each passacaille
   modulates to a different key.  Was he ahead of Wagner?  Were
 performers
   of passacailles through all keys allowed to stop to tune, and
 change
   fret spacing within a work?  Was that okay and normal for the
 audience?
   Was there an audience?   Equal temperament sounds so bad, it just
 can't
   be.
   I refuse to stop using meantone, 1/6, but I can't seem to get
 passed
   the 4th fret on my guitar.  How many tastinos will it take?  I was
 told
   by pros, including Stubbs, that things get looser up there, but I
 think
   that is just continuo talk.  Even playing Sanz  doesn't pan out,
 can
   anyone help?
   Dominic
   --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --
   /Roland
   --

References

   1. mailto:lu...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandolin

[Braig, Eugene]

Well, I'm not in the UK, but...  Unfortunately, one of the greatest proponents 
of classical mandolin, UK denizen Alison Stephens, is recently deceased.  She 
was a student of the late Hugo D'Alton, was loved, and is missed.  She taught 
at Trinity College: http://www.trinitylaban.ac.uk/.  I don't know if she was 
replaced on the faculty or if any of her students are active in the north.

You may want to drop a line to Ian at mandolinscotl...@yahoo.co.uk.  He should 
know who is doing what well related to mandolinning in the northern UK.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:15 AM
To: Lute Dmth
Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin


   Dear Wayne's list members (in UK),

   Are any of you aware of a decent mandolin player in the North of
   England? Wanted for an engagement in North Yorkshire later this year.
   Modest fee/expenses available.  Would be an advantage to be able to
   play violin with a small chamber group for other pieces in the show.

   Martyn Hodgson

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandolin

[Braig, Eugene]

PS: Chris (http://www.chrisacquavella.com/) is a protégé of Alison.  He is 
based in the US, but tours the UK with some frequency.  You may want to drop 
him a line as well, just in case...

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Braig, Eugene
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 9:46 AM
To: Martyn Hodgson; Lute Dmth
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandolin

Well, I'm not in the UK, but...  Unfortunately, one of the greatest proponents 
of classical mandolin, UK denizen Alison Stephens, is recently deceased.  She 
was a student of the late Hugo D'Alton, was loved, and is missed.  She taught 
at Trinity College: http://www.trinitylaban.ac.uk/.  I don't know if she was 
replaced on the faculty or if any of her students are active in the north.

You may want to drop a line to Ian at mandolinscotl...@yahoo.co.uk.  He should 
know who is doing what well related to mandolinning in the northern UK.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Martyn Hodgson
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 3:15 AM
To: Lute Dmth
Subject: [LUTE] Mandolin


   Dear Wayne's list members (in UK),

   Are any of you aware of a decent mandolin player in the North of
   England? Wanted for an engagement in North Yorkshire later this year.
   Modest fee/expenses available.  Would be an advantage to be able to
   play violin with a small chamber group for other pieces in the show.

   Martyn Hodgson

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: OT: Music in church

[Braig, Eugene]

My reason for staying away from church "in droves" ever since coming of an age 
that I could decide to do so is quite independent of the presence or absence of 
schlocky music (that only shallowly apes popular music at its best).  I think 
there is a real reason for religion to struggle to appear relevant in the 
modern era, but music probably isn't enough to make it so.  Societal values 
change and always have.

This seems to have wandered so far from the interests of lute that I might 
encourage any replies to my aside be made off list.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Edward Mast
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:59 AM
To: Christopher Wilke
Cc: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; do...@tiscali.it; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers

A very sad state of affairs, Chris.  I never understood the church's - 
catholic, protestant, or otherwise - desire to revise its music programs to 
reflect what is going on musically in society;  to appear to be more 
"relevant".  If you remove the unique and beautiful musical aspects of the 
church service and make it more like what's going on everywhere outside the 
church,  don't you also remove the motivation for congregants to come and 
experience something they don't find outside the church?  If, as you say, young 
people have stayed away in droves, it would seem so.
On Mar 14, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote:

Ned

>Donatella,
>In America the change in music came much earlier, in many places
>   preceding the Second Vatican Council. The Catholic Church in America
>   took great pride in dissociating itself from "old world ways" by
>   rejecting chant and polyphony. In its place, they replaced these
>   traditions with very poor pseudo-folk music. I suppose this was done in
>   order to provide "hip" music to attract young people, under the
>   assumption that no one under 30 can stand still long enough to
>   appreciate beauty. Unfortunately, the resultant music was some hideous
>   hybrid that succeeded in being neither appropriately sacred nor in any
>   way interesting to young people. At any rate, young people stayed away
>   in droves, largely because of this smaltzy stuff. Still, these very
>   same wannabe hippy songs - now approaching 50 years old - and the
>   stated need to use them to attract young people are repeated ad
>   nauseum.
>   One of the great unwritten-about artistic travesties of the 20th
>   century is the fact that this entire repertoire, which replaced a
>   still-living century's old tradition, was not called for by any Church
>   decree, but was largely engineered by the publishing company Oregan
>   Catholic Press. If you go to practically any church in the country you
>   will find the same poor quality songs from the 1960's and 1970's in the
>   hymnals. This is not due to regulation, but rather a publishing deal.
>   Chris
>   Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A.
>   Music Faculty
>   Nazareth College, Rochester, NY
>   State University of New York at Geneseo
>   Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
>   www.christopherwilke.com
>   --- On Wed, 3/14/12, do...@tiscali.it  wrote:
> 
> From: do...@tiscali.it 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
> To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com
> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 3:49 AM
> 
>   I googled, in Italian, and this came out [1]http://www.giovaninsede.
>   it/animazione-liturgica.php  , there are no notes as music is not
>   thaught in the same way as abroad, so average people can sometimes read
>   chords ( sigh) and that is. You can get an idea. I used to go to Mass
>   as a child, and songs which were sung were possibly ancient and
>   complex, often in Latin,  then when the previous Pope came, he
>   destroyed that part, I guess to make audience ( sad to say, but that
>   is), so that songs became the poorest, musically speaking, you can
>   imagine, accompanied by guitar, organ was heard now and then. It was
>   part of a "renovation"  of which I can give an example: in the village
>   where I go on holiday , there is a Chapel with a Renaissance painting.
>   It needed restoring, but it was visible. Well , it was covered with a
>   representation of a black Madonna ( I can't think of the proper name
>   right now) which is not even of any artistic value.
>   To me listening to
>   the Mass became a real suffering, this is not the main reason why I
>   quit, but I did.
>   Lute and theorbo are allowed, I have been asked
>   several times to play a piece during the mass ( but I have not done it
>   up to now)
>   Donatella
>   Messaggio originale
>   Da:
>   [2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
>   Data: 14/03/2012 1.06
>   A: "Lute Net"   dartmouth.edu>
>   Ogg: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
>   On Mar
>   13, 2012, at 4:01 PM, Tony wrote:
>> The Church's doctrine on
>   liturgical music can be s

[LUTE] Re: Wikipedia

[Braig, Eugene]

Don't we all...  Mixed blessing indeed!

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Monica Hall
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:35 PM
To: A. J. Ness
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Wikipedia

Dear Art

Yes - I just did.   What a lot of meaningless jargon.   Wikipedia is a mixed 
blessing but it does have one advantage - it can be updated very quickly.

The entry for Santiago de Murcia gives his  correct biographical details but 
Grove On Line still has the largely fictional biography of him - in spite of 
the fact that I complained about when it was first written and more recently 
after Alejandro Vera had unearthed his baptismal and burial records.   A lot 
of the other entries relating to the baroque guitar in Groves are also 
inaccurate but the current editorial staff couldn't care less.

Moral of this tale - never believe what other people say

I must plead guilty to occasionally amending Wiki entries myself when I have 
nothing better to do!

Monica.


- Original Message -
From: "A. J. Ness" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers


> Dear Monica,
>
> Take a look at the article "Pitch" in W'pedia.  It's pure jargon. 
> Sometimes
> these articles are written by persons without an understanding of the
> subject manner.  So they emphasize (or try to emphasize) what they cannot
> understand, as here.  And bibliographies are usually deficient of the 
> basic
> sources, e.g., Ellis and Mendel.
>
> A few years ago there was an article in the Boston Globe about two high
> school students (ca. 17 year olds) who (between the two of them) had 
> written
> 1000 articles for the Wikipedia.  That is an explanation for the poor
> quality of many articles.  But looks good on a college application.  (As
> does playing the lute.)
>
> Arthur.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Monica Hall" 
> To: "Mark Wheeler" 
> Cc: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 8:42 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
>
>
>> Well - I would take anything Wikipedia said with a large pinch of salt.
>> I have just finished reading Hywel Williams study of Charlemagne and the
>> Carolingian Empire which has a couple of pages on the subject of spread 
>> of
>> Roman chant northwards.  He says nothing about the clergy being forced to
>> use it on pain of death.
>>
>> I can't quote the whole section in the book but needless to say it was
>> much more complicated than that.   Among other things chant as performed
>> in Rome did not remain static.  There were significant changes to it
>> during the period in question.
>>
>> What Williams concludes by saying is -
>>
>> "A uniform chant remained the Carolingian goal and  a New Hymnal was
>> issued during the reign of Louis the Pious (Charlemagne's son).   But
>> Gregorian chant as it evolved during the next two centuries was a
>> synthesis of Carolingian, ancient Roman and the Gallican plainchant which
>> had prevailed under the Merovingians".
>>
>> Monica
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Mark Wheeler" 
>> To: "Tony" 
>> Cc: 
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 1:11 AM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
>>
>>
>>> Ironically fitting for this thread, the domination of Gregorian Chant
>>> over other forms of chant came through the use of extremely draconian
>>> methods...
>>>
>>> "Gregorian chant appeared in a remarkably uniform state across Europe
>>> within a short time. Charlemagne, once elevated to Holy Roman Emperor,
>>> aggressively spread Gregorian chant throughout his empire to consolidate
>>> religious and secular power, requiring the clergy to use the new
>>> repertory on pain of death."
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:01 AM, Tony wrote:
>>>

   Thanks Gary
   I tried to find information about  what the church prohibited in
   medieval and renaissance Europe( some of you here may have some 
 useful
   links) While searching for the Council of Trent I came across this
   list, a summary of approved  music

   The Church's doctrine on liturgical music can be summarized in seven
   points 

   1 Types of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the Mass and
   the Sacred Liturgy of the must be either Gregorian Chant, or must be
   similar to Gregorian Chant. The primary example of music similar to
   Gregorian Chant is Sacred Polyphony, exemplified by the compositions
 of
   Palestrina.

   2 Characteristics of Music Appropriate for the Mass. The music of the
   Mass must have "grandeur yet simplicity; solemnity and majesty," and
   must have "dignity," and "gravity," should be "exalted" and 
 "sublime,"
   should bring "splendor and devotion" to the liturgy, and must be
   conducive to prayer and liturgi

[LUTE] Re: Being too clever, knowing always "how it is"...

[Braig, Eugene]

In fishes, depending upon the degree of group responsiveness, the "swarm" 
behavior is usually referred to as "shoaling" (for somewhat loose associations) 
or "schooling" (in more tight-knit associations).  Closely schooling fishes 
often feature a highly developed lateralis system for acute hydrodynamic 
sensory perception.  The classic example is found in the herring family 
(clupeids) that completely lack the lateral line along the body customarily 
associated with fishes, but that have a complex system of lateralis pores and 
canals entirely concentrated in the head and face.  However, I'm having a 
really hard time relating all this to lutes...unless we are about to consider 
the benefits of fish glue.

Tongue-in-cheekishly Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Franz Mechsner
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:45 AM
To: wikla; Stewart McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Being too clever, knowing always "how it is"...

   There's a nice story about "always knowing for sure" and leadership,
   this time in some fishes. It's not only amazing that a swarm of fishes
   stays together but that - at least in some species - swarms may change
   direction almost synchronously, like a big swimming organism. Now the
   story: Researchers found out that, in a certain species of fish, there
   was always a "leader" in a swarm who's direction all of the others
   followed. Of course the obvious question arose: What makes the natural
   leader here? Is it a particuarly clever fish? Or a fish who knows
   instinctively what direction is the best ist most circumstances? The
   answer which turned out was: Fishes have a tendency to adjust their
   direction with that of their neighbors in the swarm. There is always
   one fish in a swarm who does NOT adjust to any other fish - thus his
   direction wins over any other direction in the end. So much for
   apparent knowledge for sure and natural leadership.

   F

   
   Dr. Franz Mechsner
   Reader
   Northumbria University, Dept. of Psychology
   Northumberland Building
   Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 8ST (UK)
   Tel:  +44(0) 191 243 7479



 __

   Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
   Gesendet: Do 15.03.2012 11:22
   An: Stewart McCoy
   Cc: Lute Net
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Being too clever, knowing always "how it is"...

   Dear Stewart,
   That was clever! :-))
   Btw, the idea (and phenomenon) seems seems to be older:
   "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure, and the
   intelligent are full of doubt." (Bertrand Russell: "The Triumph of
   Stupidity" (10 May 1933) )
   Best,
   Arto
   On 15/03/12 11:36, Stewart McCoy wrote:
   > Dear Arto,
   >
   > I'm not so sure. He may not be right.
   >
   > Best wishes,
   >
   > Stewart McCoy.
   >
   > -Original Message-
   > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   On
   > Behalf Of Arto Wikla
   > Sent: 14 March 2012 22:13
   > To: Lutelist List
   > Subject: [LUTE] Being too clever, knowing always "how it is"...
   >
   > Dear lutenists,
   >
   > after having read every now and then some quite strong opinions "how
   it
   > really is" here in our List, I cannot resist posting a perhaps
   slightly
   > OT message, but there is a great wisdom in a comment by Charles
   > Bukowski:
   >
   > "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full
   of
   > doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence."
   >
   > Actually that is very pessimistic, but anyhow
   >
   > all the best,
   >
   > Arto
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: (Not) OT: Music in church

[Braig, Eugene]

You draw some interesting parallels (especially regarding the advent of HIP at 
the same time churches were actively abandoning any efforts at preservation of 
their own ancient arts), Chris, and the discussion in whole is at least 
interesting...even if stretching the core concept of the list just a wee bit.  
At least we're not discussing schooling Clupeidae in this particular thread!

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Wilke
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:56 AM
To: Edward Mast; Braig, Eugene
Cc: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; do...@tiscali.it; Lute Dmth (lute@cs.dartmouth.edu)
Subject: [LUTE] Re: (Not) OT: Music in church

Hi Eugene,
   I must respectfully disagree that the subject is off topic. While
   not specifically lute related, the discussion revolves around the
   Church's (in America at least) rejection of a living tradition of early
   music. As you say, the decline in church attendance is due to many
   other cultural factors and of course, music was not the sole cause.
   However, the rejection of an entire ancient tradition was surely
   symptomatic of larger attitudes within the Church regarding the role of
   art. What social factors made those in charge conclude that the old
   aesthetic traditions were totally irrelevant and appropriate for
   wholesale ejection c.1965?
Ironically, we see the rise of HIP as a legitimate movement just
   as the Church was abandoning the living tradition of it's own
   (admittedly non-HIP) early music. Many of our post-war early music
   "heros" were just starting their concert work in ernest at this time
   and finding enough public interest to sustain specialized performing
   careers dedicated solely to old music. A fairly sizable portion of this
   repertoire consisted of Catholic music or music that the general public
   would perceive as having "that ancient church sound." Church officials
   apparently came to the conclusion that, although people where willing
   to PAY to hear this music performed well, they found it's use in the
   original context off-putting. Imagine how differently the development
   of our own field be if the Church had joined forces with the budding
   HIP movement and embraced sacred musical heritage. What if they had
   financially supported someone like Gustav Leonhardt and his many
   students to turn their efforts towards a HIP overhaul of church music
   both within and outside of services?
   In spite of these efforts to stamp out the old ways, the sound of
   ancient repertoire is none the less part of pop culture consciousness.
   To this day, whenever an interior shot of a church is featured in a
   movie, the soundtrack will feature a a few seconds of chant. This
   immediately tells the viewer that something Seriously Grave and
   Important (usually involving some sort of epic battle between Good and
   Evil) will follow. How different would those scenes be with pseudo-folk
   guitar (capo 3) strumming?
   Chris

   --- On Wed, 3/14/12, Braig, Eugene  wrote:

 From: Braig, Eugene 
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Music in church
 To: "Edward Mast" , "Christopher Wilke"
 
 Cc: "howardpos...@ca.rr.com" ,
 "do...@tiscali.it" , "Lute Dmth
 (lute@cs.dartmouth.edu)" 
 Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 1:27 PM

   My reason for staying away from church "in droves" ever since coming of
   an age that I could decide to do so is quite independent of the
   presence or absence of schlocky music (that only shallowly apes popular
   music at its best).  I think there is a real reason for religion to
   struggle to appear relevant in the modern era, but music probably isn't
   enough to make it so.  Societal values change and always have.
   This seems to have wandered so far from the interests of lute that I
   might encourage any replies to my aside be made off list.
   Best,
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Edward Mast
   Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:59 AM
   To: Christopher Wilke
   Cc: [3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; [4]do...@tiscali.it;
   [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers
   A very sad state of affairs, Chris.  I never understood the church's -
   catholic, protestant, or otherwise - desire to revise its music
   programs to reflect what is going on musically in society;  to appear
   to be more "relevant".  If you remove the unique and beautiful musical
   aspects of the church service and make it more like what's going on
   everywhere outside the church,  don't you also remove the motivation
   for congregants to come and experience something they don't find
   outside the church?  If, as you say, young pe

[LUTE] Re: Vimeo: Monica Pustilnik playing Piccinini

[Braig, Eugene]

Indeed.  This is accentuated with modern rest stroke, but even with free 
stroke, modern players strive to drive the stroke vertically towards the 
soundboard...that Piccinini (and I suspect many other astute pluckers) had 
already figured out around four centuries ago.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Miles Dempster
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:37 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vimeo: Monica Pustilnik playing Piccinini

Modern classical guitar technique also aims to have the string vibrate vertical 
to the soundboard.
I'll leave it to the pedagogues to explain how!

Miles
On 2012-03-28, at 9:05 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:

> Howard,
> 
> Thanks for your very informed remark. Indeed, Piccinini writes in his 
> avertimenti about the thumb, ch. vi: "Io non approvo, che habbia 
> l'vnga molto longa" (I don't endorse it to have a very long nail).
> And about the other fingers, ch. vii: "Certamente debbono havere le 
> vngue tanto longhe che auanzino le carne e non piu" (they surely need 
> to have nails as long as to pass the flesh, and not further).
> 
> About his distinct playing technique, ch. vii: "Quando si fara una 
> pizzicata
> (.) si piglierà la detta corda con la sommità della carne & vrtandola 
> verso il fondo, si farà che l'vngna lasci sfuggire tutte due le corde".
> (Striking a string, one must grip the said string with the tip of the 
> flesh and, bouncing it toward the soundboard, the nail will let escape 
> both strings).
> 
> That is a bit different, if I'm not mistaken, from modern guitar nail 
> playing technique in that the direction of the vibration of the string 
> is different. Vertical to the soundboard with Piccinini, parallel to 
> the soundboard on the modern classical guitar. That makes a difference 
> in sound, nails or not. But frankly, I haven't seen or heard players 
> with Piccinini's technique so far. Any hints appreciated.
> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:40 AM, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>> 
>>> What I was referring to is the position of her right hand close to 
>>> the bridge, her playing with nails, and the initial movements of her 
>>> index and middle fingers from the root joints. That's how I was 
>>> taught to play the classical guitar.
>> 
>> Piccinini's 1623 foreword specifically instructs players to use 
>> nails.  Of
> course, he
>> may have been influenced by modern classical guitar technique.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: All about micing...redux

[Braig, Eugene]

In most common usages, at least in the US, "mic" is a noun abbreviation for 
"microphone" and "mike" (and conjugates) is a verb abbreviation for "to use or 
deploy a microphone" ...or something like that.

Carry on.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
William Samson
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 11:09 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] All about micing...redux

   When I were a lad (Oh no - Here we go again!) we used the contraction
   that was pronounced and spelt 'mike' for a microphone.  When did this
   'mic' oddity appear in the language?  I'm assuming it's still
   pronounced 'mike' but maybe it's 'mick'?  Perhaps we should be talking
   about 'micking'?

   OTOH maybe I'm just taking the mic . . .

   :]
   From: William Brohinsky 
   To: lute net 
   Sent: Monday, 9 April 2012, 15:30
   Subject: [LUTE] All about micing...redux
   Fellow luters,
   may I offer some help in terminology?
   First of all, micing does not exist in the language (on either side of
   the Atlantic) in a context of microphones. I might have use in terms
   of barn cats.
   The actual term is, as was originally used, miking. However, there is
   a price for using this form, at least for this old geezer, in that
   every time I saw the subject line about miking lutes, I wondered,
   "geez, can you really get milk out of one of them things?"
   For our purposes, and for all that it costs a few extra letters and a
   whole space, I highly recommend "using microphones" or if you aren't
   capitalizing it, "using mikes." 'Miking' is a concatation (pace Stan
   Kelly-Bootle) used in the industry by technicians who are sure they
   have less time than they obviously have. Those who feel the aching
   need to over-complicate their prose are invited to substitute
   "utilize" for "use" with the promise that I, at least, will not feel
   the loss at avoiding their posts.
   yours with tongue in both cheeks at once,
   William
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Paul O'Dette interview

[Braig, Eugene]

That guitar teacher, mentioned very early on, was Mr. John McCormick, and is 
still active in publishing classical-era art song with guitar accompaniment and 
is one of my favorite guys in the world.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Valery Sauvage
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:11 AM
To: 'Lute List'
Subject: [LUTE] Paul O'Dette interview

Some interesting videos...











To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: All about micing...redux

[Braig, Eugene]

To be perfectly clear, the quote below regarding pronunciation is not mine, but 
is re-quoted from my reply to William Samson et alia.  Carry on.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
t...@heartistrymusic.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:04 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: All about micing...redux

From:   "Braig, Eugene" 
Subject:[LUTE] Re: All about micing...redux

>I'm assuming it's still pronounced 'mike' but maybe it's 'mick'?  
>Perhaps we should be talking about 'micking'?
I think Jagger has a copyright on that term ...
  T



To get on or off this list see list information at 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Braig, Eugene]

While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new here.  For 
example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the sources of Bach's original 
"lute" music in the liner notes he drafted for his recording of this music 
around 30 years ago.  He also stated their evident non-lute provenance.  I have 
heard Paul O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like 
"Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute."  Etc.  I suspect that anybody who is 
still clinging to the notion that Bach knowingly composed lute music after 
having had some exposure to some reference of the source material either 
really, really wants to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan 
of modern classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived 
ancestor of his/her own instrument.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
t...@heartistrymusic.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero
Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

  A very interesting article.  I can't wait to see the responses from the rest 
of the list!  I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an arrangement of Bach's 
Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007.  Very nice and beautifully played - in 
Renaissance tuning!
  Tom
>An interesting post:
>[1]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-th
>is-m yth-is-busted-part-i/ Luca
> 
> References
> 
>1.
>http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-
>myth-is-busted-part-i/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


Tom Draughon
Heartistry Music
http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html
714  9th Avenue West
Ashland, WI  54806
715-682-9362

[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Braig, Eugene]

I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as "Bach's works 
for lute" doesn't have any linear provenance to actually connect them to an 
intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute.  That said, transcriptions 
of any Bach music are as legitimately "lute" as the alleged lute works.

Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who knows with 
what music?  While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp, 6-hole American cedar 
flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little likelihood of me composing 
music for any of them within my lifetime.  (Granted, I am not anything like a 
properly trained composer.)

As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented instruments.  
If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate compositional familiarity with 
the pieces in his rental stable.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
David Tayler
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

   Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it for
   a planter.
   In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext,
   which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and rearranged
   his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know
   how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the organ,
   clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities.
   Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that would
   be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the lautenwerk.
   Classic example? Toccata and fugue is really not by Bach and also for
   the violin. OK, or it really is by Bach and sounds great on the organ.
   The consistent model is that Bach composed for instruments in his
   house--the viol, the lute, the harpsichord, the lautenwerk, the violin,
   viola, and so on, as well as many other instruments.
   And while I think it is more likely, even very likely, that these
   pieces are for lautenwerk, it is quite possible that someone someday
   will play them on some kind of lute perfectly. Without 2000 edits :)
   Add virtuoso, rinse, take the repeats.
 __

   From: William Samson 
   To: Luca Manassero ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 7:01:08 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 I won't believe it until it appears on Mythbusters :)
 Bill
 From: Luca Manassero <[1]l...@manassero.net>
 To: [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Wednesday, 25 April 2012, 14:37
 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
   An interesting post:

   [1][1][3]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-
   thi
 s-m
   yth-is-busted-part-i/
   Luca
 References
   1.

   [2][4]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi
   s-m
 yth-is-busted-part-i/
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1.
   [6]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m
 2.
   [7]http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m
   yth-is-busted-part-i/
 3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:l...@manassero.net
   2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-thi
   4. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-m
   7. 
http://www.classicalguitarcanada.ca/2012/04/bachs-lute-suites-this-myth-is-busted-part-i/
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Braig, Eugene]

I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case.  Urtext or 
not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute suites to Bach in 
his hand and plenty of evidence that these are arrangements or speculation at 
best.  There's nothing wrong with playing that music on the lute (especially 
because there is evidence that some folks from around that time did like to 
play some of these pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I 
don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its 
provenance either.  You're right; it's all speculation.

I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse.  Titmuss and 
others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as lessor/owner, leasing 
his own stable out to paying customers.  To quote the originally linked 
article, "There is evidence that he ran an instrument rental business."  If so, 
that sounds like a man who would own a fair number of popular instruments 
himself and not necessarily be proficient with every one that he did own.

Best,
Eugene


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of David 
Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This 
Myth is Busted

   For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an
   urtext thirty years ago :)
   I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that
   composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the
   fuzzier it gets.
   So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the
   window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is
   just speculation.
   As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things.
   First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have
   been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second,
   in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have
   wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the
   greatest music ever written for gamba, composed on a rent-a-viol?  Good
   thing they didn't get repo'd!
   And there was no ocarina on his shelf. Just instruments that happened
   to be used in the finest sacred pieces composed in the baroque
   period--the John and Matthew passions.
   Coincidence? Equally likely, IMHO, finding a moon rock in an astronauts
   luggage. And I mean no disrespect, it just seems awfully tidy.
   And I missing something, and maybe someone here can help me, but the
   page marked "unplayable" in the article, doesn't this work fine on the
   archlute?
   Of all the arguments, playability certainly is intriguing.
   dt
 __

   From: "Braig, Eugene" 
   To: lute 
   Sent: Wed, April 25, 2012 11:31:40 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth
   is Busted
   I think the point, David, is that the music we have inherited as
   "Bach's works for lute" doesn't have any linear provenance to actually
   connect them to an intention by Bach for them to be performed on lute.
   That said, transcriptions of any Bach music are as legitimately "lute"
   as the alleged lute works.
   Sure, he may have dabbled on a lute in his own collection, but who
   knows with what music?  While I own a Viennese ocarina, jaw-harp,
   6-hole American cedar flute, chromatic harmonica, etc. there's little
   likelihood of me composing music for any of them within my lifetime.
   (Granted, I am not anything like a properly trained composer.)
   As Titmuss points out, there is some speculation Bach also rented
   instruments.  If so, I wouldn't necessarily expect an intimate
   compositional familiarity with the pieces in his rental stable.
   Eugene
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Tayler
   Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 2:17 PM
   To: lute
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is
   Busted
 Let's see, Bach owned a lute, but didn't play it. Probably used it
   for
 a planter.
 In all seriousness, this argument hinges on the idea of an urtext,
 which is simply not tenable for a composer who arranged and
   rearranged
 his own works as well as the works of other composers. We don't know
 how Bach--and others--played this music, but the lautenwerk, the
   organ,
 clavichord, lute, archlute, gallichon, all possibilities.
 Certainly a lute player might have come up with a scordatura that
   would
 be quite fabulous, and they of course sound great on the laut

[LUTE] RE: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Braig, Eugene]

However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary source 
material (the manuscripts themselves).  It's obviously a bit of popular-press 
fluff, not even quite "gray literature," but that stuff tends to reach much 
more of the general public than scholarly literature ever will.

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of 
Stephan Olbertz
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld :

> The article was aimed at the guitar crowd,

And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real 
contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here, no 
mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann, Ledbetter), 
lots of statements without evidence.

Regards

Stephan





still clinging to illusions
> of lute. It's tough letting go.
> But he put it all together very nicely, I thought.
>
> On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
>
>> While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new 
>> here.  For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the 
>> sources of Bach's original "lute" music in the liner notes he drafted 
>> for his recording of this music around 30 years ago.  He also stated 
>> their evident non-lute provenance.  I have heard Paul O'Dette 
>> unequivocally state on more than one occasion something like "Sorry, 
>> Bach did not write for the lute."  Etc.  I suspect that anybody who 
>> is still clinging to the notion that Bach knowingly composed lute 
>> music after having had some exposure to some reference of the source 
>> material either really, really wants to believe so to somehow 
>> legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern classical guitar who wants 
>> to somehow legitimize the perceived ancestor of his/her own instrument.
>>
>> Best,
>> Eugene
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
>> Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:58 AM
>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero
>> Subject: [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
>>
>>  A very interesting article.  I can't wait to see the responses from 
>> the rest of the list!  I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an 
>> arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007.  Very 
>> nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning!
>>  Tom
>>
>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Braig, Eugene]

Greetings Prof. Mayes,

Yeah, I should not have used the "Bach's own hand" line; that's not really what 
I was getting at.  Still, Ana Magdalina is a bit of a different case than 
Falckenhagen, e.g.,  just because she was obviously rather close to ol' Johann 
and known as one of her husband's regular copyists.  I don't think anybody is 
arguing that Bach's "lute" works aren't Bach's, only that there is very little 
to suggest that he himself ever expected that music to be performed by actual 
lutenists with actual lutes in lap.  In many cases-e.g., BWV 1000-there are 
examples with good Bachy provenance obviously intended for other instruments; 
this particular piece is also a good example of one to come to us as "lute" via 
an arrangement by a lutenist acquaintance of Bach's.

Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing any/all of the alleged 
lute works on lutes or even in referring to them as "Bach's lute music."  That 
is how we've all come to know this stuff.  ...And we all know Bach himself was 
an inveterate recycler of his own (and even others': e.g., the solo keyboard 
concerti) music.  There's also nothing wrong with an objective recognition of 
what is known of the source material for Bach's lute works, whatever conclusion 
anybody would like to draw from it.

Best,
Eugene

-----Original Message-
From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] 
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:49 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

Hi Eugene
The "Bach's own hand" argument is specious - we don't have the 'cello 
suites in Bach's hand either and even though they were in Ana Magdalina's hand 
and at least one for another instrument, we still call them "Bach's 'Cello 
Suites."

Joseph Mayes 


On 4/25/12 10:23 PM, "Braig, Eugene"  wrote:

> I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case.  
> Urtext or not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute 
> suites to Bach in his hand and plenty of evidence that these are 
> arrangements or speculation at best.  There's nothing wrong with 
> playing that music on the lute (especially because there is evidence 
> that some folks from around that time did like to play some of these 
> pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I don't think 
> there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its 
> provenance either.  You're right; it's all speculation.
> 
> I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse.  
> Titmuss and others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as 
> lessor/owner, leasing his own stable out to paying customers.  To 
> quote the originally linked article, "There is evidence that he ran an 
> instrument rental business."  If so, that sounds like a man who would 
> own a fair number of popular instruments himself and not necessarily be 
> proficient with every one that he did own.
> 
> Best,
> Eugene
> 
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf 
> of David Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM
> To: lute
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach¹s Lute 
> Suites: This Myth is Busted
> 
>For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an
>urtext thirty years ago :)
>I just don't see any point in revisiting it. It turns out that
>composition works like quantum mechanics, the closer you look, the
>fuzzier it gets.
>So all this linear provenance, composers intent, etc, that went out the
>window years ago. I mean, no one is saying don't speculate, but it is
>just speculation.
>As far as Bach renting instruments, that proves one of two things.
>First, that he probaly did not rent them, because they would not have
>been in his household inventory at the time of his death, and, second,
>in the extremely unlikely event that he rented them, he must have
>wanted them. Here's my 2 euro cents. The gamba sonatas, some of the
>greatest music ever written for gamba, composed on a rent-a-viol?  Good
>thing they didn't get repo'd!
>And there was no ocarina on his shelf. Just instruments that happened
>to be used in the finest sacred pieces composed in the baroque
>period--the John and Matthew passions.
>Coincidence? Equally likely, IMHO, finding a moon rock in an astronauts
>luggage. And I mean no disrespect, it just seems awfully tidy.
>And I missing something, and maybe someone here can h

[LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Braig, Eugene]

..And I have nothing more to add other than I also agree with all you've said, 
Joseph.  Pluckers are good folk.  Cheers!

Eugene

-Original Message-
From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu] 
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 10:09 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute
Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

Greetings Eugene

I agree with about all you've said - I would add some what I think are cogent 
factoids: Take the fifth 'cello suite. The music requires a scordatura, it has 
not survived in Bach's hand, and it was lost for hundreds of years. People have 
no trouble calling it a "'cello suite." The same music, in Bach's hand, in 
continuous "un-lostness," and dedicated to a contemporanious lutenist is deemed 
suspicious.(?) Add to this that in Bach's time it would have been way more 
usual to write a suite for lute than for 'cello - and that the lute suite is 
better music. IMHO It leaves me scratching my head.

Best Regards,

Joseph


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Braig, 
Eugene [brai...@osu.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 11:07 AM
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

Greetings Prof. Mayes,

Yeah, I should not have used the "Bach's own hand" line; that's not really what 
I was getting at.  Still, Ana Magdalina is a bit of a different case than 
Falckenhagen, e.g.,  just because she was obviously rather close to ol' Johann 
and known as one of her husband's regular copyists.  I don't think anybody is 
arguing that Bach's "lute" works aren't Bach's, only that there is very little 
to suggest that he himself ever expected that music to be performed by actual 
lutenists with actual lutes in lap.  In many cases-e.g., BWV 1000-there are 
examples with good Bachy provenance obviously intended for other instruments; 
this particular piece is also a good example of one to come to us as "lute" via 
an arrangement by a lutenist acquaintance of Bach's.

Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing any/all of the alleged 
lute works on lutes or even in referring to them as "Bach's lute music."  That 
is how we've all come to know this stuff.  ...And we all know Bach himself was 
an inveterate recycler of his own (and even others': e.g., the solo keyboard 
concerti) music.  There's also nothing wrong with an objective recognition of 
what is known of the source material for Bach's lute works, whatever conclusion 
anybody would like to draw from it.

Best,
Eugene

-Original Message-
From: Mayes, Joseph [mailto:ma...@rowan.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 7:49 AM
To: Braig, Eugene; lute
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bach¹s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

Hi Eugene
The "Bach's own hand" argument is specious - we don't have the 'cello 
suites in Bach's hand either and even though they were in Ana Magdalina's hand 
and at least one for another instrument, we still call them "Bach's 'Cello 
Suites."

Joseph Mayes


On 4/25/12 10:23 PM, "Braig, Eugene"  wrote:

> I don't know how relevant the concept of urtext is in this case.
> Urtext or not, there is still no evidence to tie Bach's alleged lute 
> suites to Bach in his hand and plenty of evidence that these are 
> arrangements or speculation at best.  There's nothing wrong with 
> playing that music on the lute (especially because there is evidence 
> that some folks from around that time did like to play some of these 
> pieces on lute: e.g., Weyrauch and Falckenhagen), but I don't think 
> there's anything wrong with acknowledging what info there is of its 
> provenance either.  You're right; it's all speculation.
>
> I think you have the concept of Bach's rental stable in reverse.
> Titmuss and others aren't arguing for Bach as renter/lessee but as 
> lessor/owner, leasing his own stable out to paying customers.  To 
> quote the originally linked article, "There is evidence that he ran an 
> instrument rental business."  If so, that sounds like a man who would 
> own a fair number of popular instruments himself and not necessarily be 
> proficient with every one that he did own.
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf 
> of David Tayler [vidan...@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:14 PM
> To: lute
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach¹s Lute
> Suites: This Myth is Busted
>
>For me the point is that Carolyn Abbate fimly trounced the notion of an
>urtext thirty years ago :)
>