[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I haven't paid attention to it for a long time, but as I recall Italian citterns seem to have had 6 double courses on a fairly regular basis (as distinct from the Northern variant, usually with 4 double/triple courses), with some indications of a 14-course instrument (Praetorius, I think?) and Robert Hadaway had made at least a few ceterone reproductions. Again if memory serves, there's at least one fully tabulated piece for the instrument, Can't call up the name of the composer or publisher from the old synapses right now, though. Then there are the mid-17th Dutch 6-course instruments, as depicted by Vermeer et al. I'm not sure if there's any extant music for them. Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 12/19/2009 11:54 AM Why not? We tend to overlook this lovely instrument - but surely there were a lot of them around - and with more than 4 courses if I remember aright. Monica - Original Message - From: lute l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; tio...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:51 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or maybe a cittern? Mark -Urspruengliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Monica Hall Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 12:43 An: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office That is interesting becuase if it just says chitarra it may not refer to the 5-course guitar but rather to the 4-course mandora or possibly even the chitarrone. But that is perhaps another story. Monica - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? I made a mistake: there's just a continuo part in bass clef for the chitarra. No letters. The organ part is printed on two pentagrams (lines): the bass part and the highest voice of the vocal ensembe. It's the only exemple I know, at least for sacred music. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4699 (20091218) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. [1]http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.eset.com/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
Well, there's Jewish tradition in between. Rich musical temple services are described in the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Arakhin. Levites playing all kinds of kinnorim (lyres), nevalim (harps), khatzotzerot (trumpets), khalilim (flutes), tuppim (drum) and many others. The reason why these instruments aren't allowed in orthodox congregations today is that that kind of service belonged to the temple which was destroyed in 70 CE and had no double. I haven't heard about the carrying an instrument violates the Sabbath argument, but it may be so. Quite a bit of Jewish musical tradition was preserved in the early Christian congregation of Rome, which had sprung out of the Jewish congregation. A core group of the new Christian group was formed by Levites. Mathias howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com schrieb: Sorry, left out a sentence, rendering the message rather obscure. On Dec 20, 2009, at 11:32 AM, howard posner wrote: Christian practice derives in large part from post-Temple Jewish practice, in which, traditionally, instruments are forbidden in services. Alexander points out that there are Biblical references to instruments in the Temple, and indeed, Psalm 150, with its references to instruments (including nevel and kinnor, both of which are sometimes translated as lyre or lute), is a common part of modern Sabbath morning services. Left out: But in traditional congregations, the psalm, like everything else, is sung without instruments. The reasons given for it vary: some say it's because we're still in mourning over the destruction of the Temple, others that playing (or tuning, or carrying) instruments violates the Sabbath. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
Interesting - especially to one who is not Jewish. But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people mustn't play them during their official period of mourning either unless they need to to earn their living. As for carrying them - well in my neck of the woods orthodox Jews apparently consider it unacceptable to carry an umbrella on the Sabbath or push an infant in a pram. For that reason we were going to have an Eruv although I don't know if it ever got passed the planning laws. Haven't noticed it if it did. This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. Monica - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: Lutelist list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 21, 2009 10:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two Well, there's Jewish tradition in between. Rich musical temple services are described in the Babylonian Talmud, tractate Arakhin. Levites playing all kinds of kinnorim (lyres), nevalim (harps), khatzotzerot (trumpets), khalilim (flutes), tuppim (drum) and many others. The reason why these instruments aren't allowed in orthodox congregations today is that that kind of service belonged to the temple which was destroyed in 70 CE and had no double. I haven't heard about the carrying an instrument violates the Sabbath argument, but it may be so. Quite a bit of Jewish musical tradition was preserved in the early Christian congregation of Rome, which had sprung out of the Jewish congregation. A core group of the new Christian group was formed by Levites. Mathias howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com schrieb: Sorry, left out a sentence, rendering the message rather obscure. On Dec 20, 2009, at 11:32 AM, howard posner wrote: Christian practice derives in large part from post-Temple Jewish practice, in which, traditionally, instruments are forbidden in services. Alexander points out that there are Biblical references to instruments in the Temple, and indeed, Psalm 150, with its references to instruments (including nevel and kinnor, both of which are sometimes translated as lyre or lute), is a common part of modern Sabbath morning services. Left out: But in traditional congregations, the psalm, like everything else, is sung without instruments. The reasons given for it vary: some say it's because we're still in mourning over the destruction of the Temple, others that playing (or tuning, or carrying) instruments violates the Sabbath. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
On Dec 21, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Monica Hall wrote: But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. As a practical matter, it did, probably because of the lost-Temple business. I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people mustn't play them or listen during their official period of mourning either unless they need to to earn their living. This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. Tosh and nonsense, my dear (or perhaps nonsense and tosh; I always forget which comes first). How is it possible that the Catholic Church could have had a precise rule excluding the guitar at Vespers, and such an eminent scholar as yourself not be aware of it and be reduced to speculation? The point is that every instrument, including the organ, was at some point considered improper for services, but rather a lot of them sneaked into church somehow. We can't say categorically that any instrument wouldn't have been used in Mantua in 1610, or Venice in 1640. Nor can we exclude secular sounds in the Dominus ad adjuvandum, which uses a secular fanfare over the super-falsobordone intonation of the text, and breaks it up with interludes that are obviously galliards. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
What can this debate be about? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar was never played at sacred occasions because the Church had banned the guitar from service (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, composers would strictly exclude the guitar from their sacred compositions (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar would more often than not evoke secular sweets and was therefore rather rarely to be found performing, or as accompaniment of, sacred music (no counterexample possible, matter of more or less)? Mathias howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com schrieb: On Dec 21, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Monica Hall wrote: But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. As a practical matter, it did, probably because of the lost-Temple business. I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people mustn't play them or listen during their official period of mourning either unless they need to to earn their living. This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. Tosh and nonsense, my dear (or perhaps nonsense and tosh; I always forget which comes first). How is it possible that the Catholic Church could have had a precise rule excluding the guitar at Vespers, and such an eminent scholar as yourself not be aware of it and be reduced to speculation? The point is that every instrument, including the organ, was at some point considered improper for services, but rather a lot of them sneaked into church somehow. We can't say categorically that any instrument wouldn't have been used in Mantua in 1610, or Venice in 1640. Nor can we exclude secular sounds in the Dominus ad adjuvandum, which uses a secular fanfare over the super-falsobordone intonation of the text, and breaks it up with interludes that are obviously galliards. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
Hi, all. No specific counterexamples here, but in general having something banned by the Church is not (IMHO) a reliable indicator that it was not done. I'll quote as best I can from a 16th century French writer (sorry, can't remember the name, I'm sure someone here knows) reporting what he saw when present at the reading of a papal bull in Rome: ...(and it was announced) that anyone wrongly appropriating Church funds would fall under threat of excommunication, at which the Cardinals Sforza and deMedici laughed heartily. And to quote my old Ren. dance teacher: A good way to find out what was popular is to see what the church banned. Best to all, Chris. Mathias Roeselmathias.roe...@t-online.de 12/21/2009 2:12 PM What can this debate be about? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar was never played at sacred occasions because the Church had banned the guitar from service (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, composers would strictly exclude the guitar from their sacred compositions (one counterexample will do to prove wrong)? In Italy during the 17th century, the guitar would more often than not evoke secular sweets and was therefore rather rarely to be found performing, or as accompaniment of, sacred music (no counterexample possible, matter of more or less)? Mathias howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com schrieb: On Dec 21, 2009, at 6:48 AM, Monica Hall wrote: But surely the prohibition applied only to playing musical instruments in worship on the Sabbath not other days of the week. As a practical matter, it did, probably because of the lost-Temple business. I seem to remember when doing some study of Judaism that people mustn't play them or listen during their official period of mourning either unless they need to to earn their living. This may seem irrelvant to the Monteverdi Vespers but I think the point is that all religions have quite precise rules concerning the way prayers and ritual is conducted which in the case of the Catholic Church in Italy in 1610 probably excluded using the baroque guitar during the liturgy and offices.Anything doesn't go. Tosh and nonsense, my dear (or perhaps nonsense and tosh; I always forget which comes first). How is it possible that the Catholic Church could have had a precise rule excluding the guitar at Vespers, and such an eminent scholar as yourself not be aware of it and be reduced to speculation? The point is that every instrument, including the organ, was at some point considered improper for services, but rather a lot of them sneaked into church somehow. We can't say categorically that any instrument wouldn't have been used in Mantua in 1610, or Venice in 1640. Nor can we exclude secular sounds in the Dominus ad adjuvandum, which uses a secular fanfare over the super-falsobordone intonation of the text, and breaks it up with interludes that are obviously galliards. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 1:59 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: So our day job is playing in a baroque orchestra to support our hobby of playing in a baroque orchestra on original instruments. :-) Sort of, I suppose. When you've turned your hobby into your job, it's nice to have a hobby again. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Big money in baroque guitar? Gary - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:22 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Regarding conductor's (as opposed to player's) whims: almost all the conductors/directors (both professional and amateur) I know or know of are generally only too willing to defer to their continuo players on the appropriate style/instrument. Of course, if one waves an exotic instrument (eg 'baroque guitar') for a particular repertoire under their noses they may see a marketing opportunity.. Regarding the point that we can never really know what was actually played; clearly this is so, but we can gain a pretty good idea of what wasn't general practice in a particular setting and this, I think, was the point of the initial comment. This also has some overlap with the recent comments on Lisveland's self-indulgent performances. MH On Fri, 18/12/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 18 December, 2009, 19:46 If it's not your whim and you are under duress from ill informed conductors then I owe you an apology! But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. As far as the Vespers are concerned I wouldn't compare the opening with an overture to an opera. This is an invocation to God to hear our prayers and accept our praises. It is not intended to be a dramatic performance but a spiritually uplifting or inspiring experience. I am not a theorbo player but I can't really see the point in strumming that in the context although it seems very fashionable at the moment. Part of the problem seems to me to be that today the music is just regarding as another form of entertainment without taking into account the purpose for which it was intended. Beyond that there are obviously a whole range of problems about how the Vespers should be performed - starting with the idea that it isn't entirely clear what purpose Monteverdi did actually have in mind when composing it. Anyway at least I have sparked off a lively debate (again). It always surprises me that everyone takes what I say so seriously! God probably isn't worried one way or another. My brother has this nice idea that he just sits on a cloud switching channels until he finds something he wants to listen to. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? O dear, now it's suddenly my whim against the lack of evidence ( ... is no evidence of lack c.). I'll pass your opinion on to the next conductor (tonight and tomorrow, as it happens, and this particular man might be happy, as he thought us pluckers to be _much_ too loud for his choir anyway). Seriously though, within Italian early 17th century repertoire you are saying no baroque guitar in church, not in music intended for a service or just not in Monteverdi's Vespers? I have no axe to grind here, so I am reading your comments with interest. Back to the Vespers. The festive music Monteverdi chose for his opening, worthy of an ouverture to an opera, is to me inviting to festive strumming. If there's just a theorbo, I'd do the strumming on the theorbo (Lex just made a point about that), though I do like the theorbo more for it's real forte: low and full sound. Playing the Nigra Sum on b-guitar would obviously be another matter, but, if there's no big lute, gentle plucking added to an organ would not offend me. A festive production like the Vespers is an opportunity to make the best of the orchestra available. I think it was Howard who made a valid points about the use of recorders. And there are the recurring questions about the number of cornetti needed, and what to do with the middle voices and basses in the orchestra. Yes or no bowed bass in the Nigra Sum c. Just organ or add a cembalo? Make do with the available ensemble is what it's all about. And, yes, there is currently a fashion in early music to have lots of strumming and percussion, and more and more pluckers, and noise, and confusion, and poppy
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary is not relevant. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office: anything goes!
They entered Jerusalem and went to the temple of the LORD with harps and lutes and trumpets. .. and were brought to Jerusalem to celebrate joyfully the dedication with songs of thanksgiving and with the music of cymbals, harps and lyres... Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang... stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres... http://www.bibleplus.org/music/music.htm (a church music director's grant attachment) Cymbals, cymbals everywhere. A baroque guitar inside an orchestra. does sound like (crash) cymbals a bit? Send em to the bible, send em to the bible... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Thanks for that, Stuart. Just for the record - because 2010 is the 400 anniversary of the printing of the Vespers the English periodical Early Music Review has articles on different aspects of them by Clifford Bartlett who is an authority on them, has examined every surviving source, including the payrolls of places where they are likely to have been performed and edited the version which is widely used in this country at least. The only option he suggests for the continuo is the organ - the continuo part is in the form of an organ score. He points out that they were intended for performance in a private chapel not in a large public space. He thinks that they would have been performed with one voice to a part and that the instruments would probably have only played what is actually written for them. He has some interesting things to say on the liturgical background to them and the feasts of Our Lady on which they might have been performed. I though of e-mailing him and asking him he thought about a baroque guitar in the continuo ...but I know he has a lot of other things on his mind at the moment. As Stuart points out - they may have been performed by musicians in the nude but the balence of probabilities is against this. I think the balence of probabilities is against using anything other than the organ for the continuo group. Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary is not relevant. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 5:43 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Just for the record - because 2010 is the 400 anniversary of the printing of the Vespers the English periodical Early Music Review has articles on Thank you, Monica, that's interesting. I will read it. And I will have something to beat the conductor with next time (although, no theorbos .. I'll be out of a job!) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
FWIW, the serpent was invented by a French priest in 1590, and was originally meant to accompany chant. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:39 AM To: s.wa...@ntlworld.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To All: While I trust Monica's expert opinion that guitars were not likely found in concerted church music in the early 17th century, there actually is evidence of loud winds doubling voices in the early 16th century. Leslie Korrick's article, 'Instrumental music in the early 16th-century Mass: new evidence' found in Early Music XVIII No. 3 1990, has the relevant information. She points out that much of the Protestant reformer's vitriol against music in church was in direct response to trumpets, horns, shawms, bombards, etc. used in divine worship. [DT: Note the reference to an ancient article but facts is facts.] I'm sure the results of the Council of Trent had some bearing on what sort of instruments might be used in liturgical music up to Monteverdi's time. To settle the matter of guitars in divine worship during the early 17th century, I suppose one could look at musician's payment records to spot a pattern or even a reference. Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:00:55 + To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary is not relevant. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Shawms were used in church in some places, most clearly Mantua, we know because there are legal battles over who got to play the most noodles. However, it wasn't just the winds and this has been known for a long time. A lot of interesting work has been done to recreate Lassus' orchestra, and people have put a lot of thought and creativity into how the families of instruments were used. No guitar in Lassus' orchestra though, because they weren't drinking enough. d At 04:38 AM 12/20/2009, you wrote: To All: While I trust Monica's expert opinion that guitars were not likely found in concerted church music in the early 17th century, there actually is evidence of loud winds doubling voices in the early 16th century. Leslie Korrick's article, 'Instrumental music in the early 16th-century Mass: new evidence' found in Early Music XVIII No. 3 1990, has the relevant information. She points out that much of the Protestant reformer's vitriol against music in church was in direct response to trumpets, horns, shawms, bombards, etc. used in divine worship. [DT: Note the reference to an ancient article but facts is facts.] I'm sure the results of the Council of Trent had some bearing on what sort of instruments might be used in liturgical music up to Monteverdi's time. To settle the matter of guitars in divine worship during the early 17th century, I suppose one could look at musician's payment records to spot a pattern or even a reference. Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:00:55 + To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary is not relevant. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Since we know the uniformity rule is almost always true, we can surmise that any work that establishes an unique performance practice is most likely not true. There just was no one way to perform the Vespers. The fact that Monteverdi published two versions should be all the evidence one needs. However, any work that goes through all of the Vespers settings would be interesting to read, I have counted over two hundred. Since I haven't seen the article I won't comment, but if all two hundred are researched I will be amazed and delighted. There is a payroll for the orchestras in Venice which includes lute players--theorbo--I suppose like most lute players they were routinely fired and rehired for not drinking enough. dt Just for the record - because 2010 is the 400 anniversary of the printing of the Vespers the English periodical Early Music Review has articles on different aspects of them by Clifford Bartlett who is an authority on them, has examined every surviving source, including the payrolls of places where they are likely to have been performed and edited the version which is widely used in this country at least. The only option he suggests for the continuo is the organ - the continuo part is in the form of an organ score. He points out that they were intended for performance in a private chapel not in a large public space. He thinks that they would have been performed with one voice to a part and that the instruments would probably have only played what is actually written for them. He has some interesting things to say on the liturgical background to them and the feasts of Our Lady on which they might have been performed. I though of e-mailing him and asking him he thought about a baroque guitar in the continuo ...but I know he has a lot of other things on his mind at the moment. As Stuart points out - they may have been performed by musicians in the nude but the balence of probabilities is against this. I think the balence of probabilities is against using anything other than the organ for the continuo group. Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary is not relevant. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
That is exactly right. Any recreation of music would have to have been semi intoxicated. d At 10:47 AM 12/20/2009, you wrote: Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
And considering the average lifespan, it's a miracle that as much culture and civilization as there was seems to have prevailed. We are wrestling with a heritage left to us by world of underage alcoholics. This certainly explains a lot. Dan Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Time for another series of your lute seminars. Plenty more Damilano wine where that first bottle came from. They also do a Barolo. That is exactly right. Any recreation of music would have to have been semi intoxicated. d -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Average lifespan implies that anyone surviving infancy had a reasonable shot at dying of plague at the age of 99, like Titian. RT - Original Message - From: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office And considering the average lifespan, it's a miracle that as much culture and civilization as there was seems to have prevailed. We are wrestling with a heritage left to us by world of underage alcoholics. This certainly explains a lot. Dan Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Ah, Roman- the happy optimist shows his face! The glass is at least half-full of cheap Italian red, the stuff that courses through my veins. Dan Average lifespan implies that anyone surviving infancy had a reasonable shot at dying of plague at the age of 99, like Titian. RT -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office: anything goes!
Don't get me started on that. Otherwise I would have to mention those recent archeological finds in the Bethlehem area, evidencing an ancient musical band, called the Heavenly Hosts, whose prominent soloist was a lute player. So famous he was for his finger style playing, that you can still see that musician depicted in many replicas today. More often than not, wings are added to the replicas, but that's based on a fictitious ancient description by some certain Lukas. In fact, there's no HIP evidence for wings with the HHs's lead lutenist. Merry season's greatings, Mathias alexander voka...@verizon.net schrieb: They entered Jerusalem and went to the temple of the LORD with harps and lutes and trumpets. .. and were brought to Jerusalem to celebrate joyfully the dedication with songs of thanksgiving and with the music of cymbals, harps and lyres... Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, they raised their voices in praise to the LORD and sang... stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres... http://www.bibleplus.org/music/music.htm (a church music director's grant attachment) Cymbals, cymbals everywhere. A baroque guitar inside an orchestra. does sound like (crash) cymbals a bit? Send em to the bible, send em to the bible... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Dec 20, 2009, at 3:00 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote: How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Neither likely nor apt as an analogy, since it doesn't involve filling in a gap in our knowledge. We know what the Church thought of public nudity; it might have called on the The Simpsons to express its view: (Helen Lovejoy and Maude Flanders arrive at Marges doorstep) Helen: Get dressed, Marge. Youve got to lead our protest against this abomination! (Shows Marge a newspaper with the Statue of David on the cover) Marge: Hmm, but thats Michelangelos David. Its a masterpiece. Helen: (Gasps) Its filth! It graphically portrays parts of the human body which, practical as they may be, are evil. Marge: But I like that statue. Maude: (Gasps) I told you she was soft on full frontal nudity. That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? All of them. I'm guessing that just about any instrument would have been at one time too secular for Christian worship. Instrumental music had a long journey to become a part of Christian worship, which hasn't concerned us much in this discussion because it was well established by the Renaissance, and some of the new Protestant sects were eliminating it precisely because of its secularity and their desire to reject the irreligious aspects of Catholicism. So every instrument would have had secular skeletons in its closet: Trombones, cornetti and other winds were imported from town bands; trumpets had military connotations, violins were dance instruments. Even the organ took centuries to gain acceptance. FWIW, Wikipedia says By around the eighth century it had overcome early associations with gladiatorial combat and gradually assumed a prominent place in the liturgy of the western church Christian practice derives in large part from post-Temple Jewish practice, in which, traditionally, instruments are forbidden in services. Alexander points out that there are Biblical references to instruments in the Temple, and indeed, Psalm 150, with its references to instruments (including nevel and kinnor, both of which are sometimes translated as lyre or lute), is a common part of modern Sabbath morning services. The reasons given for it vary: some say it's because we're still in mourning over the destruction of the Temple, others that playing (or tuning, or carrying) instruments violates the Sabbath. When Salomon Rossi published a book of Jewish polyphonic motets in 1622-23, he included the opinions of five rabbis, who all said it was OK as long as instruments weren't used. Orthodox congregations today still forbid instruments. My lute- playing in my own congregation was the subject of some debate. BTW, a search through payroll records would not clear up the question of baroque guitars in churches; players were usually listed according to their primary instrument regardless of what they actually played. So we wouldn't know if Clyde della tiorba played guitar that Sunday. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sunday 20 December 2009 2:32:36 pm howard posner wrote: I'm guessing that just about any instrument would have been at one time too secular for Christian worship. Instrumental music had a long journey to become a part of Christian worship, which hasn't concerned us much in this discussion because it was well established by the Renaissance, and some of the new Protestant sects were eliminating it precisely because of its secularity and their desire to reject the irreligious aspects of Catholicism. So every instrument would have had secular skeletons in its closet: Trombones, cornetti and other winds were imported from town bands; trumpets had military connotations, violins were dance instruments. Even the organ took centuries to gain acceptance. On 24 November 1655 Oliver Cromwell prohibited the Anglican liturgy. Organs and other musical instruments used for worship disappeared and reappeared in alehouses. They have translated the organs out of the churches and set them up in taverns, chanting their ditty rambics and bestial Baccanalias to the tune of those instruments which were wonted to assist them in the celebration of God's praises. There's no pleasing Puritans! Cheers - Stuart McLuckie To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
In Spain in the 16th century the bajon was used to accompany chant although what it seems to have been used for was to sound the appropriate pitch note of each section so as to keep the singers on pitch. I think the plainchant on Paul McCreech's recording of Victoria's Requiem is done in that way. Monica - Original Message - From: Guy Smith guy_m_sm...@comcast.net To: 'Ron Andrico' praelu...@hotmail.com; s.wa...@ntlworld.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office FWIW, the serpent was invented by a French priest in 1590, and was originally meant to accompany chant. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:39 AM To: s.wa...@ntlworld.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To All: While I trust Monica's expert opinion that guitars were not likely found in concerted church music in the early 17th century, there actually is evidence of loud winds doubling voices in the early 16th century. Leslie Korrick's article, 'Instrumental music in the early 16th-century Mass: new evidence' found in Early Music XVIII No. 3 1990, has the relevant information. She points out that much of the Protestant reformer's vitriol against music in church was in direct response to trumpets, horns, shawms, bombards, etc. used in divine worship. [DT: Note the reference to an ancient article but facts is facts.] I'm sure the results of the Council of Trent had some bearing on what sort of instruments might be used in liturgical music up to Monteverdi's time. To settle the matter of guitars in divine worship during the early 17th century, I suppose one could look at musician's payment records to spot a pattern or even a reference. Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:00:55 + To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary is not relevant. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
In England they drank small beer which I think is less alcoholic. But in general they must have been very de-hydrated. Monica - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I think there are only two versions of the Magnificat, a simplified one for less ambitious performers and the one usually performed. Monica - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:52 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Since we know the uniformity rule is almost always true, we can surmise that any work that establishes an unique performance practice is most likely not true. There just was no one way to perform the Vespers. The fact that Monteverdi published two versions should be all the evidence one needs. However, any work that goes through all of the Vespers settings would be interesting to read, I have counted over two hundred. Since I haven't seen the article I won't comment, but if all two hundred are researched I will be amazed and delighted. There is a payroll for the orchestras in Venice which includes lute players--theorbo--I suppose like most lute players they were routinely fired and rehired for not drinking enough. dt Just for the record - because 2010 is the 400 anniversary of the printing of the Vespers the English periodical Early Music Review has articles on different aspects of them by Clifford Bartlett who is an authority on them, has examined every surviving source, including the payrolls of places where they are likely to have been performed and edited the version which is widely used in this country at least. The only option he suggests for the continuo is the organ - the continuo part is in the form of an organ score. He points out that they were intended for performance in a private chapel not in a large public space. He thinks that they would have been performed with one voice to a part and that the instruments would probably have only played what is actually written for them. He has some interesting things to say on the liturgical background to them and the feasts of Our Lady on which they might have been performed. I though of e-mailing him and asking him he thought about a baroque guitar in the continuo ...but I know he has a lot of other things on his mind at the moment. As Stuart points out - they may have been performed by musicians in the nude but the balence of probabilities is against this. I think the balence of probabilities is against using anything other than the organ for the continuo group. Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Given how difficult the serpent is to play at pitch, it might well have been the other way around for serpent:-) -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:14 PM To: Guy Smith Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office In Spain in the 16th century the bajon was used to accompany chant although what it seems to have been used for was to sound the appropriate pitch note of each section so as to keep the singers on pitch. I think the plainchant on Paul McCreech's recording of Victoria's Requiem is done in that way. Monica - Original Message - From: Guy Smith guy_m_sm...@comcast.net To: 'Ron Andrico' praelu...@hotmail.com; s.wa...@ntlworld.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office FWIW, the serpent was invented by a French priest in 1590, and was originally meant to accompany chant. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:39 AM To: s.wa...@ntlworld.com; howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To All: While I trust Monica's expert opinion that guitars were not likely found in concerted church music in the early 17th century, there actually is evidence of loud winds doubling voices in the early 16th century. Leslie Korrick's article, 'Instrumental music in the early 16th-century Mass: new evidence' found in Early Music XVIII No. 3 1990, has the relevant information. She points out that much of the Protestant reformer's vitriol against music in church was in direct response to trumpets, horns, shawms, bombards, etc. used in divine worship. [DT: Note the reference to an ancient article but facts is facts.] I'm sure the results of the Council of Trent had some bearing on what sort of instruments might be used in liturgical music up to Monteverdi's time. To settle the matter of guitars in divine worship during the early 17th century, I suppose one could look at musician's payment records to spot a pattern or even a reference. Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:00:55 + To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office howard posner wrote: On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. Any other examples of 'secular, even vulgar, instruments' becoming accepted in the church? (strohfiedel? bagpipe?) It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. Well, it's probably a virtue to keep an open mind on things but the evidence suggests that it is really rather unlikely that guitarists would be strumming along with the Vespers - and no evidence that they did. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? too much badinage with RT? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
In any event: a Ukrainian cossack, resident in Vienna is credited with hte coffee revolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Franciszek_Kulczycki and a correction: 1683 is the key date. RT - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office In England they drank small beer which I think is less alcoholic. But in general they must have been very de-hydrated. Monica - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com schrieb: In any event: a Ukrainian cossack, resident in Vienna is credited with hte coffee revolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Franciszek_Kulczycki and a correction: 1683 is the key date. RT Well, the Austrian-German version has it different. Pls ignore my mistakes, resulting from translation in a rush. M. Kolschitzky's being granted a privileged coffee house in 1686 together with two other combatants, seems to be a randomly invented rumour that was planted by the Piarist Gottfried Uhlich in 1783 in his Chronicles of the Second Turkish Siege of Vienna. The Kolitschky memorial in the Favoritenstraße was unveiled on Sept 12th 1885, the anniversary of the battle at Kahlenberg. According to most recent research, the first Viennese coffee house is said to have been set up in 1685 by the Armenian Johannes Diodato. Dass Kolschitzky 1686 zusammen mit zwei anderen Kriegsteilnehmern das Privileg des Kaffeeausschanks in Wien verliehen bekommen haben soll, ist angeblich eine willkürliche Erfindung, die der Piarist Gottfried Uhlich 1783 in seiner Chronik Geschichte der zweyten türkischen Belagerung Wiens, bey der hundertjährigen Gedächtnißfeyer in die Welt setzte. Kolschitzky starb 1694 im Alter von 54 Jahren völlig verarmt in Wien. Das Kolschitzky-Denkmal in der Favoritenstraße wurde am 12. September 1885, dem Jahrestag der Schlacht am Kahlenberg, enthüllt. Nach neuesten Erkenntnissen soll das erste Kaffeehaus in Wien 1685 durch den Armenier Johannes Diodato eröffnet worden sein. - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office In England they drank small beer which I think is less alcoholic. But in general they must have been very de-hydrated. Monica - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Actually there is evidence of the opposite. Before coffee overtook Europe in 1648, people drank little water (as unsafe), but mostly beer (beer soup as standard European breakfast). So all Europeans were slightly inebriated in their waking hours. Caffeine-induced sober stimulatedness was the revolution that begat coffeehouse conversation, which in turm begat Kant and Hamann. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 1:29 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or evidence that anyone performed sober? Perhaps only on special occasions. d How about the proposition that there was no church in Italy in the first half of the17th century in which the singers all performed in the nude? Well.. who knows? But how likely is it? Or evidence that anyone performed sober? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 8:32 PM, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: of baroque guitars in churches; players were usually listed according to their primary instrument regardless of what they actually played. So we wouldn't know if Clyde della tiorba played guitar that Sunday. I'm paid as as a theorbo player for my two days at the office this week. As is my colleague, who was clearly playing an archlute. No b-guitar in the records. Davide della tiorba -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@gmail.com schrieb: In any event: a Ukrainian cossack, resident in Vienna is credited with hte coffee revolution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Franciszek_Kulczycki and a correction: 1683 is the key date. RT Well, the Austrian-German version has it different. Pls ignore my mistakes, resulting from translation in a rush. The wikipedia article Roman refers to seems to have contributions from the usual suspects. Check and collate with other articles that have had questionable, and not so questionable, coverage on this list over the years. Do we take the bait or do we ignore? We usually take the bait. David - knows nothing about how wikipedia works, nor about the introduction of coffee in Europe apart from Bach's cantata, so please ignore my remark completely if you feel you kow better in any way, which I'm sure you do if you have taken the trouble to get this far into my e-mail -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office take two
Sorry, left out a sentence, rendering the message rather obscure. On Dec 20, 2009, at 11:32 AM, howard posner wrote: Christian practice derives in large part from post-Temple Jewish practice, in which, traditionally, instruments are forbidden in services. Alexander points out that there are Biblical references to instruments in the Temple, and indeed, Psalm 150, with its references to instruments (including nevel and kinnor, both of which are sometimes translated as lyre or lute), is a common part of modern Sabbath morning services. Left out: But in traditional congregations, the psalm, like everything else, is sung without instruments. The reasons given for it vary: some say it's because we're still in mourning over the destruction of the Temple, others that playing (or tuning, or carrying) instruments violates the Sabbath. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
It is pretty clear that certain composers did not write for the guitar, and that there was among some church musicians a recognition that the guitar is going to make more bad counterpoint--chords versus line--than most other instruments. We have a large enough statistical base to form some ideas about that, for example, Vivaldi did not as far as I know write anything for guitar, but he scored for everything else including the kitchen sink. That is thousands of pieces. However, this does raise an interesting point, that if counterpoint were the main reason, most modern players do not observe the rules of parallels (some are unavoidable, but most are not). So even if the guitar were not used, if it was this particular issue, it would not have mattered which conitnuo instrument was used if the result was similar. If there was a subtle class distinction, the playing might not have been as important as the image--what a modern concept! Certainly the best guitarists avoided the most obvious parallels. Some composers published works of a popular sort, and these of course were played on guitars and other instruments. I say, wiki wiki! dt At 11:49 PM 12/18/2009, you wrote: Reading all this debate, I better understand why God (any kind of...) is the main reason why people are making wars... Wish you a merry end of the year, whatever religion you beleive or not ;-) V. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I find it easy enough to focus on an old painting or manuscript and slip back in time, but then maybe I'm delusional. The lessons are great, however. dt We can never hear how the original audience heard. Which is not an excuse to do anything you want, of course... Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Monica, We love you! Keep questioning everything! Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
- Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? I made a mistake: there's just a continuo part in bass clef for the chitarra. No letters. The organ part is printed on two pentagrams (lines): the bass part and the highest voice of the vocal ensembe. It's the only exemple I know, at least for sacred music. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4699 (20091218) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Regarding conductor's (as opposed to player's) whims: almost all the conductors/directors (both professional and amateur) I know or know of are generally only too willing to defer to their continuo players on the appropriate style/instrument. Of course, if one waves an exotic instrument (eg 'baroque guitar') for a particular repertoire under their noses they may see a marketing opportunity.. Regarding the point that we can never really know what was actually played; clearly this is so, but we can gain a pretty good idea of what wasn't general practice in a particular setting and this, I think, was the point of the initial comment. This also has some overlap with the recent comments on Lisveland's self-indulgent performances. MH On Fri, 18/12/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 18 December, 2009, 19:46 If it's not your whim and you are under duress from ill informed conductors then I owe you an apology! But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. As far as the Vespers are concerned I wouldn't compare the opening with an overture to an opera. This is an invocation to God to hear our prayers and accept our praises. It is not intended to be a dramatic performance but a spiritually uplifting or inspiring experience. I am not a theorbo player but I can't really see the point in strumming that in the context although it seems very fashionable at the moment. Part of the problem seems to me to be that today the music is just regarding as another form of entertainment without taking into account the purpose for which it was intended. Beyond that there are obviously a whole range of problems about how the Vespers should be performed - starting with the idea that it isn't entirely clear what purpose Monteverdi did actually have in mind when composing it. Anyway at least I have sparked off a lively debate (again). It always surprises me that everyone takes what I say so seriously! God probably isn't worried one way or another. My brother has this nice idea that he just sits on a cloud switching channels until he finds something he wants to listen to. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? O dear, now it's suddenly my whim against the lack of evidence ( ... is no evidence of lack c.). I'll pass your opinion on to the next conductor (tonight and tomorrow, as it happens, and this particular man might be happy, as he thought us pluckers to be _much_ too loud for his choir anyway). Seriously though, within Italian early 17th century repertoire you are saying no baroque guitar in church, not in music intended for a service or just not in Monteverdi's Vespers? I have no axe to grind here, so I am reading your comments with interest. Back to the Vespers. The festive music Monteverdi chose for his opening, worthy of an ouverture to an opera, is to me inviting to festive strumming. If there's just a theorbo, I'd do the strumming on the theorbo (Lex just made a point about that), though I do like the theorbo more for it's real forte: low and full sound. Playing the Nigra Sum on b-guitar would obviously be another matter, but, if there's no big lute, gentle plucking added to an organ would not offend me. A festive production like the Vespers is an opportunity to make the best of the orchestra available. I think it was Howard who made a valid points about the use of recorders. And there are the recurring questions about the number of cornetti needed, and what to do with the middle voices and basses in the orchestra. Yes or no bowed bass in the Nigra Sum c. Just organ or add a cembalo? Make do with the available ensemble is what it's all about. And, yes, there is currently a fashion in early music to have lots of strumming and percussion, and more and more pluckers, and noise, and confusion, and poppy performances, and fun, and showing off, and being frivolous, and all that. It'll pass to be replaced by the next fad. David
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: you are under duress from ill informed conductors That sums up nicely the position of any member of an orchestra-for-hire. then I owe you an apology! No offence given, none taken. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Not necessary, no, nothing is necessary. But Howard made that point already
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Nearly on topic, there is this one book with Alfabeto plus B.C. from begining to end; CANZONETTE, SPIRITUALI E MORALI, Che si cantano nell Oratorio di Chiauena, eretto sotto la Protettione di S. Filippo Neri...con le lettere della Chitarra Sopra Arie communi, e nuoue date in luce per trattenimento Spirituale d'ogni persona. 1658. __ Schneller, einfacher und noch mehr Fun - [1]mit Windows 7 -- References 1. http://redirect.gimas.net/?n=M0912MSWin7 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Sorry, it's called TIORBA FORTE... F I am not a player of either theorbo or Baroque guitar. But I've heard them in performances, and I've wondered how often the player has made the choice for the guitar simply because that way there is a chance it will be heard. Wouldn't a thiorbo forte be an option here? F -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: Sorry, it's called TIORBA FORTE... I think the discussion is lively enough to exclude liuti forti in their various guises. David - wonders why nobody mentioned the toy theorbo (single strung at that), the imperfect 1/4 comma MT frets, the 16-course archlute in all-synthetics (including frets) and metal-wounds, all in the same video as the dreaded b-guitar. ;-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Thanks for the encouragment! Monica - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com To: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Monica, We love you! Keep questioning everything! Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
That is interesting becuase if it just says chitarra it may not refer to the 5-course guitar but rather to the 4-course mandora or possibly even the chitarrone. But that is perhaps another story. Monica - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? I made a mistake: there's just a continuo part in bass clef for the chitarra. No letters. The organ part is printed on two pentagrams (lines): the bass part and the highest voice of the vocal ensembe. It's the only exemple I know, at least for sacred music. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4699 (20091218) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Yes - that is my point. There is no reason why we shouldn't play the music anyway we like but we should be cautiousl about claiming that what we do is historically accurate. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Lutelist Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:22 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Regarding conductor's (as opposed to player's) whims: almost all the conductors/directors (both professional and amateur) I know or know of are generally only too willing to defer to their continuo players on the appropriate style/instrument. Of course, if one waves an exotic instrument (eg 'baroque guitar') for a particular repertoire under their noses they may see a marketing opportunity.. Regarding the point that we can never really know what was actually played; clearly this is so, but we can gain a pretty good idea of what wasn't general practice in a particular setting and this, I think, was the point of the initial comment. This also has some overlap with the recent comments on Lisveland's self-indulgent performances. MH On Fri, 18/12/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 18 December, 2009, 19:46 If it's not your whim and you are under duress from ill informed conductors then I owe you an apology! But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. As far as the Vespers are concerned I wouldn't compare the opening with an overture to an opera. This is an invocation to God to hear our prayers and accept our praises. It is not intended to be a dramatic performance but a spiritually uplifting or inspiring experience. I am not a theorbo player but I can't really see the point in strumming that in the context although it seems very fashionable at the moment. Part of the problem seems to me to be that today the music is just regarding as another form of entertainment without taking into account the purpose for which it was intended. Beyond that there are obviously a whole range of problems about how the Vespers should be performed - starting with the idea that it isn't entirely clear what purpose Monteverdi did actually have in mind when composing it. Anyway at least I have sparked off a lively debate (again). It always surprises me that everyone takes what I say so seriously! God probably isn't worried one way or another. My brother has this nice idea that he just sits on a cloud switching channels until he finds something he wants to listen to. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? O dear, now it's suddenly my whim against the lack of evidence ( ... is no evidence of lack c.). I'll pass your opinion on to the next conductor (tonight and tomorrow, as it happens, and this particular man might be happy, as he thought us pluckers to be _much_ too loud for his choir anyway). Seriously though, within Italian early 17th century repertoire you are saying no baroque guitar in church, not in music intended for a service or just not in Monteverdi's Vespers? I have no axe to grind here, so I am reading your comments with interest. Back to the Vespers. The festive music Monteverdi chose for his opening, worthy of an ouverture to an opera, is to me inviting to festive strumming. If there's just a theorbo, I'd do the strumming on the theorbo (Lex just made a point about that), though I do like the theorbo more for it's real forte: low and full sound. Playing the Nigra Sum on b-guitar would obviously be another matter, but, if there's no big lute, gentle plucking added to an organ would not offend me. A festive production like the Vespers is an opportunity to make the best of the orchestra available. I think it was Howard who made a valid points about the use of recorders. And there are the recurring questions about the number of cornetti needed, and what to do with the middle voices and basses in the orchestra. Yes or no bowed bass in the Nigra Sum c. Just organ or add a cembalo? Make do
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Yes - but these are intended for private devotions - and I assume the words are in Italian rather than Latin? Monica - Original Message - From: Dominic Robillard ubaldrosa...@hotmail.de To: sauvag...@orange.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Nearly on topic, there is this one book with Alfabeto plus B.C. from begining to end; CANZONETTE, SPIRITUALI E MORALI, Che si cantano nell Oratorio di Chiauena, eretto sotto la Protettione di S. Filippo Neri...con le lettere della Chitarra Sopra Arie communi, e nuoue date in luce per trattenimento Spirituale d'ogni persona. 1658. __ Schneller, einfacher und noch mehr Fun - [1]mit Windows 7 -- References 1. http://redirect.gimas.net/?n=M0912MSWin7 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
God has very catholic tastes. Monica - Original Message - From: Tom Draughon t...@heartistrymusic.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 11:54 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office My brother has this nice idea that he just sits on a cloud switching channels until he finds something he wants to listen to. He's actually watching Britney Spears and Funniest Cat videos on youtube right now... Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Aha, Thanks David. I really admire your work and have actually bookmarked your website, thus your answer hurts. But anyway, I am a humble beginner... Interestingly, Liuto Forte seems to be THE bad and heretic word here, and to even utter it seems to disguise one as an ignorant to be excluded from every respectful discussion... To my experience, in my field of expertise (which is not the lute :-), if people are getting dogmatic there is usually something VERY worth considering which people do not DARE to think... Franz Dr. Franz Mechsner Hanse Institute for Advanced Study Lehmkuhlenbusch 4 D-27753 Delmenhorst/Bremen GERMANY E-mail: [1]franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk Phone: +49 (0)4221 9160-215 Fax: +49 (0)4221 9160-179 __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von David van Ooijen Gesendet: Sa 19.12.2009 12:18 An: Lute list Betreff: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: Sorry, it's called TIORBA FORTE... I think the discussion is lively enough to exclude liuti forti in their various guises. David - wonders why nobody mentioned the toy theorbo (single strung at that), the imperfect 1/4 comma MT frets, the 16-course archlute in all-synthetics (including frets) and metal-wounds, all in the same video as the dreaded b-guitar. ;-) -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:franz.mechs...@unn.ac.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: your answer hurts. I am sorry it did. It was not intended, I can assure you. I think a 'normal' theorbo is loud enough in any orchestra, just plucking basses, so for me the liuto (or theorbo) forte is not necessary. But if it is to someone else, let him/her be happy with it. Liuto Forte seems to be THE bad and heretic word here Indeed. ;-) But obviously there's nothing wrong with playing nice music on any instrument, even on the unmentionable ones. ;-) and to even utter it seems to disguise one as an ignorant to be excluded from every respectful discussion Not at all, just from the one dealing with whether a b-guitar is appropriate in Monteverdi's Vespers. But I'm sure there are some listers eager to start a discussion on the liuto forte (again). if people are getting dogmatic I hope nobody is dogmatic here, although some stances in this discussion, as in many others, seem to be taken rather strongly. Consider it part of the rhetorics. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk That is interesting becuase if it just says chitarra it may not refer to the 5-course guitar but rather to the 4-course mandora or possibly even the chitarrone. Never find any reference about the use of the 4 course mandora in Roma. Also I think it's unusfull for a continuo realization. The know very well what was chitarrone and what was chitarra. I'm sure it means just 'chitarra'. Nearly on topic, there is this one book with Alfabeto plus B.C. from begining to end; CANZONETTE, SPIRITUALI E MORALI, Che si cantano nell' Oratorio di Chiauena, eretto sotto la Protettione di S. Filippo Neri...con le lettere della Chitarra Sopra Arie communi, e nuoue date in luce per trattenimento Spirituale d'ogni persona. 1658. These are secular ariaa based on ostinato basses, with sacred text. Nothing to do with liturgy. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4701 (20091219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Well - that was a red herring really and never leave any stone unturned to coin a few phrases. It surely is referring to the 5-course guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk That is interesting becuase if it just says chitarra it may not refer to the 5-course guitar but rather to the 4-course mandora or possibly even the chitarrone. Never find any reference about the use of the 4 course mandora in Roma. Also I think it's unusfull for a continuo realization. The know very well what was chitarrone and what was chitarra. I'm sure it means just 'chitarra'. Nearly on topic, there is this one book with Alfabeto plus B.C. from begining to end; CANZONETTE, SPIRITUALI E MORALI, Che si cantano nell' Oratorio di Chiauena, eretto sotto la Protettione di S. Filippo Neri...con le lettere della Chitarra Sopra Arie communi, e nuoue date in luce per trattenimento Spirituale d'ogni persona. 1658. These are secular ariaa based on ostinato basses, with sacred text. Nothing to do with liturgy. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4701 (20091219) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Or maybe a cittern? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Monica Hall Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 12:43 An: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office That is interesting becuase if it just says chitarra it may not refer to the 5-course guitar but rather to the 4-course mandora or possibly even the chitarrone. But that is perhaps another story. Monica - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? I made a mistake: there's just a continuo part in bass clef for the chitarra. No letters. The organ part is printed on two pentagrams (lines): the bass part and the highest voice of the vocal ensembe. It's the only exemple I know, at least for sacred music. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4699 (20091218) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Why not? We tend to overlook this lovely instrument - but surely there were a lot of them around - and with more than 4 courses if I remember aright. Monica - Original Message - From: lute l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; tio...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:51 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or maybe a cittern? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Monica Hall Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 12:43 An: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office That is interesting becuase if it just says chitarra it may not refer to the 5-course guitar but rather to the 4-course mandora or possibly even the chitarrone. But that is perhaps another story. Monica - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? I made a mistake: there's just a continuo part in bass clef for the chitarra. No letters. The organ part is printed on two pentagrams (lines): the bass part and the highest voice of the vocal ensembe. It's the only exemple I know, at least for sacred music. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4699 (20091218) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
The cittern is certainly one of the most overlooked instrument in the early music world today. Italian citterns seemed to nearly always have more than 4 courses. And Monteverdi did mention it (in its theorboed form) in the scoring for Orfeo, so it has more of a Monteverdi link than Baroque guitar. Also its social position had not lowered at this point, it was only later in the 17th century that this happened. So there would have been no problem in using it in a church. All the best Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Monica Hall Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 17:55 An: lute Cc: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Why not? We tend to overlook this lovely instrument - but surely there were a lot of them around - and with more than 4 courses if I remember aright. Monica - Original Message - From: lute l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; tio...@gmail.com Cc: 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 4:51 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Or maybe a cittern? Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Monica Hall Gesendet: Samstag, 19. Dezember 2009 12:43 An: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist Betreff: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office That is interesting becuase if it just says chitarra it may not refer to the 5-course guitar but rather to the 4-course mandora or possibly even the chitarrone. But that is perhaps another story. Monica - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? I made a mistake: there's just a continuo part in bass clef for the chitarra. No letters. The organ part is printed on two pentagrams (lines): the bass part and the highest voice of the vocal ensembe. It's the only exemple I know, at least for sacred music. Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4699 (20091218) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I have never actually played in a baroque orchestra, even though I make my living exclusively by doing so. There is so much work I can only take half of what is offered. But from the lute point of view we are the most sensitive instrument to historical stringing. If the violins, cellos and double basses all used historical bridges, which act like mutes, historical bass bars, all unvarnished gut strings, and so on, there would be two big changes in the sound: 1. The volume would be less than half. 2. The bass register would get SOFTER instead of louder the lower you go. The is the exact opposite of the current sound. We are listening to the opposite of baroque bass. The result? The lute would be between two to three times as loud, and the orchestra would have an extraordinary transparency as well as a silvery, warm tone. Also, you would hear the tone of the lute as opposed to just the pluck. There are orchestras just now experimenting with historical stringing and winds, I'm sure it will take some time to get it to work, but I have no doubt that is what I would like to do on some level. In our ensemble we are converting one string at a time. Unfortunately, professionals can't change their strings and bridges and bass bars, so realistically one is looking at bankrolling the hardware, which is where we were in the 70s. dt At 05:01 AM 12/19/2009, you wrote: On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk wrote: your answer hurts. I am sorry it did. It was not intended, I can assure you. I think a 'normal' theorbo is loud enough in any orchestra, just plucking basses, so for me the liuto (or theorbo) forte is not necessary. But if it is to someone else, let him/her be happy with it. Liuto Forte seems to be THE bad and heretic word here Indeed. ;-) But obviously there's nothing wrong with playing nice music on any instrument, even on the unmentionable ones. ;-) and to even utter it seems to disguise=A0one as an ignorant to be excluded from every respectf= ul discussion Not at all, just from the one dealing with whether a b-guitar is appropriate in Monteverdi's Vespers. But I'm sure there are some listers eager to start a discussion on the liuto forte (again). if people are getting dogmatic I hope nobody is dogmatic here, although some stances in this discussion, as in many others, seem to be taken rather strongly. Consider it part of the rhetorics. David --=20 *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 9:03 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: If the violins, cellos and double basses all used historical bridges, which act like mutes, historical bass bars, all unvarnished gut strings, and so on, There's a group I play in (www.barokensembledeswaen.nl) where we try to do all these things. As much as possible, as much as we think we understand, even experimenting with utterly wild ideas about HIP and with utter disregard to our audience who nevertheless keep coming twice a month. It's an interesting path to follow, with varying results, but taken a step back and looking at all the ups and occasionally spectacular downs over the years we are growing in a sound that is, for the lute anyway, much more comfortable than the average modern baroque orchestra. No need for the liuto forte here. ;-) David - yes, home from yet another Maria Vespers, but preparing to play Christmas songs with a vocal quartet tomorrow: Praetorius to Jingle Bells, I believe ... -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:44 AM, Monica Hall wrote: we should be cautiousl about claiming that what we do is historically accurate. And equally cautious about calling it historically inaccurate, or wholly inappropriate, nonsense or corny. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
So our day job is playing in a baroque orchestra to support our hobby of playing in a baroque orchestra on original instruments. dt At 03:31 PM 12/19/2009, you wrote: On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 9:03 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: If the violins, cellos and double basses all used historical bridges, which act like mutes, historical bass bars, all unvarnished gut strings, and so on, There's a group I play in (www.barokensembledeswaen.nl) where we try to do all these things. As much as possible, as much as we think we understand, even experimenting with utterly wild ideas about HIP and with utter disregard to our audience who nevertheless keep coming twice a month. It's an interesting path to follow, with varying results, but taken a step back and looking at all the ups and occasionally spectacular downs over the years we are growing in a sound that is, for the lute anyway, much more comfortable than the average modern baroque orchestra. No need for the liuto forte here. ;-) David - yes, home from yet another Maria Vespers, but preparing to play Christmas songs with a vocal quartet tomorrow: Praetorius to Jingle Bells, I believe ... -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
- Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk I can't believe this - it is all nonsense. There is a difference between sacred songs which may be dance like and intended to be performed in a domestic setting and music to be performed in a liturgical context. The problem with so many performers today is that they know little about religion and care even less about it.This is the paradox with the Early Music Movement .I guess that very few of you actually believe what you are singing about or know anything about the context in which the music was intended to be performed - or what it stands for. I totally agree with you, Monica. but... What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4697 (20091217) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
That sums it up very nicely. I would add that Monteverdi probably didn't add the alfabeto to the songs in Milanuzzi or intend them to be played in that way. One of my whinges is that there is a large repertoire of attractive solo music for guitar and all these songs - which nobody ever performs. We don't need the guitar in things like the Vespers. We have a huge lot of stuff all our own. Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Evidence of guitar in the 1610 Vespers: no. Evidence of guitar with voice in Italy at this time: certainly. James Tyler in his book The Early Guitar gives a four-page listing (pp 96-99) of Italian printed songbooks with alfabeto, starting with Kapsperger in 1610 and with many others crowding in shortly afterwards. On page 80 he cites Milanuzzi 1624 as including five Monteverdi arias. On the face of it, then, absolutely fine to use the guitar. But - as implied in Monica's latest - *all* those books are of secular music. Not sacred music. From which it would seem that the guitar was kept firmly outside the church. Inappropriate, then. (Although yes, it is fun...) P 2009/12/17 Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Not just at the moment. It would take too long and I fear my comments would fall on stony ground. I first heard the Vespers performed fifty years ago so I think I have heard every possible permutation of it. I can't say that adding the baroque guitar this piece did anything for me ...but at least I listened to it. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: [use of b-guitar in Monteverdi's Maria Vespers] inappropriate Can you tell us why you think so? David -- -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Yes - certain songs even in the secular repertoire were considered more appropriate for the guitar than others. Monica - Original Message - From: dc den...@free.fr To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:40 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Peter Martin écrit: Evidence of guitar in the 1610 Vespers: no. Evidence of guitar with voice in Italy at this time: certainly. James Tyler in his book The Early Guitar gives a four-page listing (pp 96-99) of Italian printed songbooks with alfabeto, starting with Kapsperger in 1610 and with many others crowding in shortly afterwards. On page 80 he cites Milanuzzi 1624 as including five Monteverdi arias. On the face of it, then, absolutely fine to use the guitar. But - as implied in Monica's latest - *all* those books are of secular music. Not sacred music. From which it would seem that the guitar was kept firmly outside the church. And, on the other hand, there are numerous sacred publications of the time that specify the continuo instruments, and the guitar is NEVER mentioned. A. Grandi's first book of motets (1610), for instance: Accommodati per cantarsi nell'Organo, Clauicembalo, / Chitarrone, ò altro simile Stromento. Of course, the guitar could be considered among the latter. But the fact remains that none of these sacred publications mention it. Whereas it is specifically mentioned in some of Grandi's secular pieces. Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
That's very interesting - thanks for the information. I don't have a copy of this and I am not quite sure what you mean by pentagrams. Do you mean tables of alfabeto chords at the beginning of the book? MOnica - Original Message - From: tio...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk I can't believe this - it is all nonsense. There is a difference between sacred songs which may be dance like and intended to be performed in a domestic setting and music to be performed in a liturgical context. The problem with so many performers today is that they know little about religion and care even less about it.This is the paradox with the Early Music Movement .I guess that very few of you actually believe what you are singing about or know anything about the context in which the music was intended to be performed - or what it stands for. I totally agree with you, Monica. but... What you think about the Cantabo Domino by Paolo Quagliati, (printed in Fabio Costantini, Scelta di mottetti [...] libro secondo, Roma, Robletti 1618) where we have 2 pentagrams for the chitarra? Diego __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4697 (20091217) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
It is not about adding just another colour. By the percussive rhythm of a guitar (with an effect almost like a snare drum, caused by excessive forceful strumming) the whole character of the music can change. Therefore it would be good to be well informed about the existence of such a practice. The whole discussion is pervaded by ideas about how the guitar was used in the alfabeto era. Today it is often (implicitly) compared to flamenco. Yet, the character of the repertoire of flamenco cantes (to which the percussive style of rasgueado really belongs) is very different from the pastoral villanelle from Italy. These are much more related to the romances from 16c Spain, a repertoire with a gentle touch of melancholy. The guitar has the prime task to provide good harmony, to support the voice in the expression of the poetry. Perhaps it could even be better compared to how Jazz guitarists strum an accompaniment to a ballad. It could well be that the use of the guitar was confined to certain genres of song and dance. Even if there are included ostinato themes like the ciaccona in certain stage works of Monteverdi, this does not say that, within the frame of thought of the rappresentativo style, such references should lead to a literal reproduction of the situation it refers to (of which guitar strumming in a pastoral environment forms part). Imitation with other means sometimes works even stronger. As Montesardo remarked in 1606: To have an elegant hand on the guitar, it is needed to hold it relaxed and strike the strings gently with three or four fingers in the manner of an arpeggio, not all at once, which would create a great noise and sound crude, which is very annoying to the ear. In the battuto-pizzicato solo repertoire strumming is applied over any number of strings, and sometimes it is used for two- or three part textures or even single notes. Meanwhile, it seems that the modern idea of rhythm guitar has affected the performance on the theorbo as well, since more and more that instrument is used for strumming. It would be interesting to find out on what historic information (apart from comparing it to the guitar...) that is based. Today there is a fashion for making an orchestral instrumentation with many different instruments that were there. Maybe the question should rather be if there is any evidence in descriptions, scores or iconography of the guitar participating in the continuo body, as it exists in abundance for the theorbo and the lute. It is true that in many song collections there is alfabeto included, next to a bass line, which could be understood as an indication that the guitar strummed along with the theorbo or harpsichord. Having looked in a number of these books it turns out that there are very often conflicts between the guitar part and the bass (and even sometimes with the melody). It seems as if the harmonic language of alfabeto (the choice of harmonies) was essentially different from (not necessarily always inferior to) the official versions as represented in the bass. It is not self-evident that guitarists were able to read their chords from the bass (which they actually did not play). It is telling that there seem to exist no (or very few) examples of basso continuo with alfabeto written in. Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? O dear, now it's suddenly my whim against the lack of evidence ( ... is no evidence of lack c.). I'll pass your opinion on to the next conductor (tonight and tomorrow, as it happens, and this particular man might be happy, as he thought us pluckers to be _much_ too loud for his choir anyway). Seriously though, within Italian early 17th century repertoire you are saying no baroque guitar in church, not in music intended for a service or just not in Monteverdi's Vespers? I have no axe to grind here, so I am reading your comments with interest. Back to the Vespers. The festive music Monteverdi chose for his opening, worthy of an ouverture to an opera, is to me inviting to festive strumming. If there's just a theorbo, I'd do the strumming on the theorbo (Lex just made a point about that), though I do like the theorbo more for it's real forte: low and full sound. Playing the Nigra Sum on b-guitar would obviously be another matter, but, if there's no big lute, gentle plucking added to an organ would not offend me. A festive production like the Vespers is an opportunity to make the best of the orchestra available. I think it was Howard who made a valid points about the use of recorders. And there are the recurring questions about the number of cornetti needed, and what to do with the middle voices and basses in the orchestra. Yes or no bowed bass in the Nigra Sum c. Just organ or add a cembalo? Make do with the available ensemble is what it's all about. And, yes, there is currently a fashion in early music to have lots of strumming and percussion, and more and more pluckers, and noise, and confusion, and poppy performances, and fun, and showing off, and being frivolous, and all that. It'll pass to be replaced by the next fad. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I think it is important to realize that the use of a baroque guitar here is the _conductor's_ whim, not David's. As a professional basso continuo player you have to be quite a diplomant to navigate between conductors' ideas and your own knowledge of historically informed performance practice. Jelma van Amersfoort (who's had to deal with this thing both as a coductor and as a continuo player) On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? Monica - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:22 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office I think David's question was whether there was some authority for this proposition other than yourself. On Dec 17, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote: I can't believe this - it is all nonsense. There is a difference between sacred songs which may be dance like and intended to be performed in a domestic setting and music to be performed in a liturgical context. The problem with so many performers today is that they know little about religion and care even less about it.This is the paradox with the Early Music Movement .I guess that very few of you actually believe what you are singing about or know anything about the context in which the music was intended to be performed - or what it stands for. Even in Spain and the New World where the guitar certainly was used to accompany villancicos etc at Christmas and Corpus Christi it had its own separate role. It is just so corny to add the baroque guitar to everything in this way. You are like a lot of kids with a new toy - look at me doing fancy strumming on my guitar. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
With respect, Monica, it is clear that you are not a performer. It's fairly easy to sit back and say 'you shouldn't do that because it wasn't done' and quite another to be a professional musician earning your crust, supporting a family, etc, and being booked to play a date. Considering David's work as a whole, he has given an enormous amount to his studies and to our appreciation of the music of different periods. If he finds himself stretching the historical facts a little here and there, tis a small sin... David is right about fashions, though...the CD recordings of each decade of the Early Music movement tell us more about that decade than they do about the music they purport (I think that's the word - I may have made it up!) to be expressing. Period performance is ultimately doomed, of course - our ears have heard Schoenberg, Hendrix, Madonna. We can never hear how the original audience heard. Which is not an excuse to do anything you want, of course... Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
As Professor Goldthwait Higginson Dorr, Ph.D. said: 'Madam, we are not musicians of the late Renaissance.' Andrew On 18 Dec 2009, at 12:41, Rob MacKillop wrote: Period performance is ultimately doomed, of course - our ears have heard Schoenberg, Hendrix, Madonna. We can never hear how the original audience heard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I sympathise with you! Monica - Original Message - From: jelmaa jel...@gmail.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office I think it is important to realize that the use of a baroque guitar here is the _conductor's_ whim, not David's. As a professional basso continuo player you have to be quite a diplomant to navigate between conductors' ideas and your own knowledge of historically informed performance practice. Jelma van Amersfoort (who's had to deal with this thing both as a coductor and as a continuo player) On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:43 PM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? Monica - Original Message - From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:22 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office I think David's question was whether there was some authority for this proposition other than yourself. On Dec 17, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote: I can't believe this - it is all nonsense. There is a difference between sacred songs which may be dance like and intended to be performed in a domestic setting and music to be performed in a liturgical context. The problem with so many performers today is that they know little about religion and care even less about it.This is the paradox with the Early Music Movement .I guess that very few of you actually believe what you are singing about or know anything about the context in which the music was intended to be performed - or what it stands for. Even in Spain and the New World where the guitar certainly was used to accompany villancicos etc at Christmas and Corpus Christi it had its own separate role. It is just so corny to add the baroque guitar to everything in this way. You are like a lot of kids with a new toy - look at me doing fancy strumming on my guitar. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I appreciate that but still believe we have an obbligaton to educate conductors if it is indeed their whim rather than the players. And if people post things and draw attention to them we are surely entitled to express an honest opinion about them. We don't get anywhere by just saying that everything is perfect, lovely when really it deeply offends our sensibilities etc. Monica - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop luteplay...@googlemail.com To: jelmaa jel...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office With respect, Monica, it is clear that you are not a performer. It's fairly easy to sit back and say 'you shouldn't do that because it wasn't done' and quite another to be a professional musician earning your crust, supporting a family, etc, and being booked to play a date. Considering David's work as a whole, he has given an enormous amount to his studies and to our appreciation of the music of different periods. If he finds himself stretching the historical facts a little here and there, tis a small sin... David is right about fashions, though...the CD recordings of each decade of the Early Music movement tell us more about that decade than they do about the music they purport (I think that's the word - I may have made it up!) to be expressing. Period performance is ultimately doomed, of course - our ears have heard Schoenberg, Hendrix, Madonna. We can never hear how the original audience heard. Which is not an excuse to do anything you want, of course... Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
If it's not your whim and you are under duress from ill informed conductors then I owe you an apology! But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. As far as the Vespers are concerned I wouldn't compare the opening with an overture to an opera. This is an invocation to God to hear our prayers and accept our praises. It is not intended to be a dramatic performance but a spiritually uplifting or inspiring experience. I am not a theorbo player but I can't really see the point in strumming that in the context although it seems very fashionable at the moment. Part of the problem seems to me to be that today the music is just regarding as another form of entertainment without taking into account the purpose for which it was intended. Beyond that there are obviously a whole range of problems about how the Vespers should be performed - starting with the idea that it isn't entirely clear what purpose Monteverdi did actually have in mind when composing it. Anyway at least I have sparked off a lively debate (again). It always surprises me that everyone takes what I say so seriously! God probably isn't worried one way or another. My brother has this nice idea that he just sits on a cloud switching channels until he finds something he wants to listen to. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, December 18, 2009 12:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? O dear, now it's suddenly my whim against the lack of evidence ( ... is no evidence of lack c.). I'll pass your opinion on to the next conductor (tonight and tomorrow, as it happens, and this particular man might be happy, as he thought us pluckers to be _much_ too loud for his choir anyway). Seriously though, within Italian early 17th century repertoire you are saying no baroque guitar in church, not in music intended for a service or just not in Monteverdi's Vespers? I have no axe to grind here, so I am reading your comments with interest. Back to the Vespers. The festive music Monteverdi chose for his opening, worthy of an ouverture to an opera, is to me inviting to festive strumming. If there's just a theorbo, I'd do the strumming on the theorbo (Lex just made a point about that), though I do like the theorbo more for it's real forte: low and full sound. Playing the Nigra Sum on b-guitar would obviously be another matter, but, if there's no big lute, gentle plucking added to an organ would not offend me. A festive production like the Vespers is an opportunity to make the best of the orchestra available. I think it was Howard who made a valid points about the use of recorders. And there are the recurring questions about the number of cornetti needed, and what to do with the middle voices and basses in the orchestra. Yes or no bowed bass in the Nigra Sum c. Just organ or add a cembalo? Make do with the available ensemble is what it's all about. And, yes, there is currently a fashion in early music to have lots of strumming and percussion, and more and more pluckers, and noise, and confusion, and poppy performances, and fun, and showing off, and being frivolous, and all that. It'll pass to be replaced by the next fad. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
My brother has this nice idea that he just sits on a cloud switching channels until he finds something he wants to listen to. He's actually watching Britney Spears and Funniest Cat videos on youtube right now... Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Dec 18, 2009, at 3:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: to which I would respond - is there any authority for David's proposition other than his own whim? I'm not sure what David's proposition is, but yours seems to be something like, there was no church in Italy in the first half of the 17th century in which a guitar was ever used for continuo. This seems extreme enough to ask for some support. That the guitar was considered (by absolutely everyone?) a secular, even vulgar, instrument doesn't really get us anywhere. The same was true of the violin for a generation or two, but then became perfectly normal in church. It is not dispositive that the guitar is not mentioned in the published books of liturgical music that represent a small part of the music that was heard in churches. Absent some guitarra taceat in ecclesia pronouncement from the Pope, we should keep an open mind about church practice. And of course, you've chosen a particularly bad example in any case, since the title page of Monteverdi's publication says suitable for the chapels or chambers of princes, which would make church practice, even if we knew it exactly, not controlling of the question. But briefly I don't think that the guitar would have been used in 17th century Italian (or other) religious music intended to be performed in a liturgical context. I can't see why it should be necessary. Necessary? Necessary??? NECESSARY?? O, reason not the need! Our basest beggars Are in the poorest thing superfluous. Allow not nature more than nature needs, Man's life is cheap as beast's. It's not NECESSARY to perform the 1610 Vespers at all, particularly if you're not Catholic. It's not necessary (shudder) to use theorbos, or any member of the lute family, if you do perform them. It's not necessary for singers or instrumentalists to sing any particular ornament, or a continuo player to voice a chord any particular way, but what they do sing or play isn't wrong for being unnecessary. Necessary is not relevant. As far as the Vespers are concerned I wouldn't compare the opening with an overture to an opera. This is an invocation to God to hear our prayers and accept our praises. It is not intended to be a dramatic performance but a spiritually uplifting or inspiring experience. I am not a theorbo player but I can't really see the point in strumming If you'd ever played a theorbo in the midst of trombones and cornetti, you'd see the point. In Monteverdi's Domine ad adjuvandumum me festina, the point is that it's forceful, loud enough not to be completely pointless, and rhythmically strong, in keeping with the very forceful and rhythmically driving music that's going on around it, including the very secular fanfare in canon over the voices, which was likely a symbol of the Gonzaga family, and of course is familiar to us from Orfeo. If you're going to argue that secular sounds are inappropriate in religious music, you might want to pick an example that doesn't actually refute your position. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Thanks David, nice strumming! -Mensaje original- De: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] En nombre de David van Ooijen Enviado el: jueves, 17 de diciembre de 2009 08:39 Para: lutelist Net Asunto: [LUTE] another day at the office http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
May I ask what evidence there is that Monteverdi intended a baroque guitar to be included in the continuo group in the Vespers?!! I know you can take a white horse anywhere, perhaps even a white elephant.but the baroque guitar? What ever next? the ukelele? Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] another day at the office http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I suspect the same evidence that tells us of the general use of the theorbo by JS Bach at St Thomas's Leipzig MH --- On Thu, 17/12/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 17 December, 2009, 14:32 May I ask what evidence there is that Monteverdi intended a baroque guitar to be included in the continuo group in the Vespers?!! I know you can take a white horse anywhere, perhaps even a white elephant.but the baroque guitar? What ever next? the ukelele? Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] another day at the office [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David -- *** David van Ooijen [6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Remind me of a old joke about an Armenian who was selling a green horse at the marketplace. When asked why the horse was colored so unusually, he replied: It is mine, and I paint is any color I see fit. RT - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:32 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office May I ask what evidence there is that Monteverdi intended a baroque guitar to be included in the continuo group in the Vespers?!! I know you can take a white horse anywhere, perhaps even a white elephant.but the baroque guitar? What ever next? the ukelele? Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] another day at the office http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Ton Koopman uses b-guitar in JSB cantatas. Go figure. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office I suspect the same evidence that tells us of the general use of the theorbo by JS Bach at St Thomas's Leipzig MH --- On Thu, 17/12/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 17 December, 2009, 14:32 May I ask what evidence there is that Monteverdi intended a baroque guitar to be included in the continuo group in the Vespers?!! I know you can take a white horse anywhere, perhaps even a white elephant.but the baroque guitar? What ever next? the ukelele? Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:39 PM Subject: [LUTE] another day at the office [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: [4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I [5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David -- *** David van Ooijen [6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo 4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:32 AM, Monica Hall wrote: May I ask what evidence there is that Monteverdi intended a baroque guitar to be included in the continuo group in the Vespers?!! That would be the least interesting of the performance practice questions you could ask. You might also ask about those recorders that are so close to the microphone (I think they are actually mentioned only in the Magnificat), the use of of multiple voices on a part (including eight women singing the Sancta Maria in unison), the use of women singers, the doubling of the voices with instruments in the Dixit Dominus and Lauda Jerusalem, and doing Lauda Jerusalem at written pitch instead of transposed down a fourth, all of which are decisions by the editor or director. The continuo question has an easy answer: Monteverdi did not specify continuo, and would have expected that someone using his published music would perform it with a variety of continuo instruments. Would he have been shocked if the theorbo player picked up a guitar in places? He might not have given it a thought. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: May I ask what evidence there is that Monteverdi intended a baroque guitar to be included in the continuo group in the Vespers?!! I have no idea, but your abundant use of exclamations marks after the question mark tells me you have a strong opinion about this matter and are about to tell us. David - gets paid to do these things - yes, including occasionally b-guitar in Bach's Matthew Passion - and in these matters tends to refer to the last line in Gone with the Wind and get on with the job -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Well- if you have to be stuck in an office job, you've got one of the better ones. Not as funny as The Office but much easier on the eyes and especially the ears. Jeez, what a dress code! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
No - they are meant to express surprise that anyone should think it was necessary. Getting on with the job doesn't wholly justify something which is wholly inappropriate - which is why I asked the question. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 3:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: May I ask what evidence there is that Monteverdi intended a baroque guitar to be included in the continuo group in the Vespers?!! I have no idea, but your abundant use of exclamations marks after the question mark tells me you have a strong opinion about this matter and are about to tell us. David - gets paid to do these things - yes, including occasionally b-guitar in Bach's Matthew Passion - and in these matters tends to refer to the last line in Gone with the Wind and get on with the job -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: [use of b-guitar in Monteverdi's Maria Vespers] inappropriate Can you tell us why you think so? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office / job ethics
On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: Getting on with the job doesn't wholly justify something which is wholly inappropriate Wholeheartedly agreed. My job for these 20-odd years includes playing Monteverdi's Maria Vespers a number of times every year; it's safe to say I've played it something like 100 to 150 times by now. Do I want everything, or just my contribution, to be to up to date with my current knowledge of HIP every time, or do I want to give the conductor a chance and give his ideas a try? In practical reality I usually end up doing a bit of both. Over the years I learn, both in what is the latest fashion in HIP, and what works in various churches, with various ensembles, fellow lute players, choirs, soloist, conductors' ideas and whatnot. B-guitar works for me in a number of movements, and I see no reason why not to use it, but I am open to your arguments. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Not just at the moment. It would take too long and I fear my comments would fall on stony ground. I first heard the Vespers performed fifty years ago so I think I have heard every possible permutation of it. I can't say that adding the baroque guitar this piece did anything for me ...but at least I listened to it. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: [use of b-guitar in Monteverdi's Maria Vespers] inappropriate Can you tell us why you think so? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Very, very nice David! And nice kind of an office you have... ;) And the baroque guitar really suits and adds up to certain parts of the Maria vespers by Monteverdi. No question of that instrument being inappropriate to the sacred music of M's time and place! There are lots and lots of sacred songs of those days that really are swinging dances! We northern protestants just spoiled the joy of the music of the counter reformation... Just some severe hymns sung badly in unison... And then later the overly serious and un-joyful passions by a certain German late baroque master, who since then have been raised as kind of semi-god of music... ;-) All best, Arto On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:39:18 +0100, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I can't believe this - it is all nonsense. There is a difference between sacred songs which may be dance like and intended to be performed in a domestic setting and music to be performed in a liturgical context. The problem with so many performers today is that they know little about religion and care even less about it.This is the paradox with the Early Music Movement .I guess that very few of you actually believe what you are singing about or know anything about the context in which the music was intended to be performed - or what it stands for. Even in Spain and the New World where the guitar certainly was used to accompany villancicos etc at Christmas and Corpus Christi it had its own separate role. It is just so corny to add the baroque guitar to everything in this way. You are like a lot of kids with a new toy - look at me doing fancy strumming on my guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Very, very nice David! And nice kind of an office you have... ;) And the baroque guitar really suits and adds up to certain parts of the Maria vespers by Monteverdi. No question of that instrument being inappropriate to the sacred music of M's time and place! There are lots and lots of sacred songs of those days that really are swinging dances! We northern protestants just spoiled the joy of the music of the counter reformation... Just some severe hymns sung badly in unison... And then later the overly serious and un-joyful passions by a certain German late baroque master, who since then have been raised as kind of semi-god of music... ;-) All best, Arto On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:39:18 +0100, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Evidence of guitar in the 1610 Vespers: no. Evidence of guitar with voice in Italy at this time: certainly. James Tyler in his book The Early Guitar gives a four-page listing (pp 96-99) of Italian printed songbooks with alfabeto, starting with Kapsperger in 1610 and with many others crowding in shortly afterwards. On page 80 he cites Milanuzzi 1624 as including five Monteverdi arias. On the face of it, then, absolutely fine to use the guitar. But - as implied in Monica's latest - *all* those books are of secular music. Not sacred music. From which it would seem that the guitar was kept firmly outside the church. Inappropriate, then. (Although yes, it is fun...) P 2009/12/17 Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Not just at the moment. It would take too long and I fear my comments would fall on stony ground. I first heard the Vespers performed fifty years ago so I think I have heard every possible permutation of it. I can't say that adding the baroque guitar this piece did anything for me ...but at least I listened to it. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Lutelist [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: [use of b-guitar in Monteverdi's Maria Vespers] inappropriate Can you tell us why you think so? David -- -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Peter Martin écrit: Evidence of guitar in the 1610 Vespers: no. Evidence of guitar with voice in Italy at this time: certainly. James Tyler in his book The Early Guitar gives a four-page listing (pp 96-99) of Italian printed songbooks with alfabeto, starting with Kapsperger in 1610 and with many others crowding in shortly afterwards. On page 80 he cites Milanuzzi 1624 as including five Monteverdi arias. On the face of it, then, absolutely fine to use the guitar. But - as implied in Monica's latest - *all* those books are of secular music. Not sacred music. From which it would seem that the guitar was kept firmly outside the church. And, on the other hand, there are numerous sacred publications of the time that specify the continuo instruments, and the guitar is NEVER mentioned. A. Grandi's first book of motets (1610), for instance: Accommodati per cantarsi nellOrgano, Clauicembalo, / Chitarrone, ò altro simile Stromento. Of course, the guitar could be considered among the latter. But the fact remains that none of these sacred publications mention it. Whereas it is specifically mentioned in some of Grandi's secular pieces. Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Here is Gerard Rebours, writing about the guitar in France, admittedly not Italy, but early in the 17th century, in alfebeto-only times (as far as publications are concerned): ...the guitar appeared in 'charivaris', in comical and grotesque situations, associated with Spaniards or Italian characters like Harlequin, Brighella, Pantalone, the Zialartini and Salt'in Bianco. And that was not all: the guitar players sometimes came down amongst the public, moved, sang and danced.I imagine it was fun and exciting, for both players and public, to play guitar in hand, and walk, dance the sarabande, sing and dress with extravagant costumes...and - to crown it all - striking a tambourine while strumming the guitar, or make it jingle by jumping or shaking one's body, maybe tapping one's foot as well. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
Well, in my ultra-catholic town's church, seminarists play guitar during the mass imitating pop songs, which is really awful (I'd rather prefer David's b-guitar). -Mensaje original- De: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] En nombre de Monica Hall Enviado el: jueves, 17 de diciembre de 2009 16:06 Para: wikla CC: Lutelist Asunto: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office I can't believe this - it is all nonsense. There is a difference between sacred songs which may be dance like and intended to be performed in a domestic setting and music to be performed in a liturgical context. The problem with so many performers today is that they know little about religion and care even less about it.This is the paradox with the Early Music Movement .I guess that very few of you actually believe what you are singing about or know anything about the context in which the music was intended to be performed - or what it stands for. Even in Spain and the New World where the guitar certainly was used to accompany villancicos etc at Christmas and Corpus Christi it had its own separate role. It is just so corny to add the baroque guitar to everything in this way. You are like a lot of kids with a new toy - look at me doing fancy strumming on my guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:13 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: another day at the office Very, very nice David! And nice kind of an office you have... ;) And the baroque guitar really suits and adds up to certain parts of the Maria vespers by Monteverdi. No question of that instrument being inappropriate to the sacred music of M's time and place! There are lots and lots of sacred songs of those days that really are swinging dances! We northern protestants just spoiled the joy of the music of the counter reformation... Just some severe hymns sung badly in unison... And then later the overly serious and un-joyful passions by a certain German late baroque master, who since then have been raised as kind of semi-god of music... ;-) All best, Arto On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 14:39:18 +0100, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbihntVfdKo and two others: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITNFt5Si48I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DoioUweBLs David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I am not a player of either theorbo or Baroque guitar. But I've heard them in performances, and I've wondered how often the player has made the choice for the guitar simply because that way there is a chance it will be heard. Sometimes the number of string players is too large, or they play on later style (and louder) instruments, or whatever. But a theorbo among a string orchestra of even 3/3/2/1 on a part will simply not be heard in my listening experience. But in the same context a guitar strummed hard and loudly, will at least contribute some rhythmic, percussive sound that will be heard. This seemed to be the reasoning in a performance of Monteverdi I heard awhile ago. The solo arias had theorbo while the louder ensemble pieces with obbligato strings were played with guitar. So perhaps if practically speaking this is how the choice gets made, we should look at some of the other performance practices that might not be quite what they should be. Just a thought from an audience member. Suzanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
On Dec 17, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Suzanne and Wayne wrote: But a theorbo among a string orchestra of even 3/3/2/1 on a part will simply not be heard in my listening experience. You mean you don't hear much of it as a discrete, identifiable sound. What you don't know is how different the ensemble would sound if the theorbo weren't there, which is what counts. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
I think David's question was whether there was some authority for this proposition other than yourself. On Dec 17, 2009, at 1:05 PM, Monica Hall wrote: I can't believe this - it is all nonsense. There is a difference between sacred songs which may be dance like and intended to be performed in a domestic setting and music to be performed in a liturgical context. The problem with so many performers today is that they know little about religion and care even less about it.This is the paradox with the Early Music Movement .I guess that very few of you actually believe what you are singing about or know anything about the context in which the music was intended to be performed - or what it stands for. Even in Spain and the New World where the guitar certainly was used to accompany villancicos etc at Christmas and Corpus Christi it had its own separate role. It is just so corny to add the baroque guitar to everything in this way. You are like a lot of kids with a new toy - look at me doing fancy strumming on my guitar. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
