RE: Future of Naiad

[Graham Bell]

I'm not at Siggraph and so didn't attend the meeting, though I think I have an 
idea of what was probably shown.

The Max guys on the forum link are venting alot, but there's alot of adding two 
and two together and making five.

I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel free.



Graham


-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Stefan Kubicek
Sent: 25 July 2013 00:31
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Future of Naiad

According to a post on Max Underground, Naiad will be completely integrated 
into Maya:

http://www.maxunderground.com/archives/19385_autodesk_siggraph_event_news___including_future_of_naiad.html
No Max port planned, making it even more unlikely it will ever be integrated 
into ICE either :-(



--
---
Stefan Kubicek
---
keyvis digital imagery
   Alfred Feierfeilstraße 3
A-2380 Perchtoldsdorf bei Wien
  Phone:+43/699/12614231
   www.keyvis.at  ste...@keyvis.at
--  This email and its attachments are   --
--confidential and for the recipient only--

<>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Steven Caron]

they, you, need a better PR department.

it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.

*written with my thumbs

On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell   
wrote:


I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel  
free.

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If one
was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both.

Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual
"within the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all agree on,
but no matter the amount of information that gets rolled out, "people" will
always speculate and work things into re-inforcing whatever scenario they
want to believe.


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron  wrote:

> they, you, need a better PR department.
>
> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
>
> *written with my thumbs
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>
>
> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel free.
>
>
>


-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: Future of Naiad

[Steven Caron]

agreed, the masses speculate. but what i was trying to say was stop with
the 'cryptic and confused' communication... don't show up at an 'autodesk'
usergroup meeting and only show one of your five softwares. if you are
going to kill the others and put all the money into maya, just effing say
so... that's right, corporate rules don't allow, rather you love our money
and would hate to see us stop paying you subscription.

s

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 5:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual
> "within the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all agree on,
> but no matter the amount of information that gets rolled out, "people" will
> always speculate and work things into re-inforcing whatever scenario they
> want to believe.
>
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Greg Punchatz]

Frankly M&E AD needs new TOP down leadership

It's so beyond broken that no matter how hard the people below them try to show 
them the light they refuse to look.

 They still think Flame is still a valid product.. Single threaded piece of poo 
IMO.  I am so surprised they can still sell the product at all, especially for 
the outrageous prices. There are just a lot of people who have not realized yet 
that the emperor has no clothes.

And Maya is the future of 3d ... A code base nearing or past its 15 year 
mark... Really? 

Sorry but I am just not a happy AD customer. 


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 24, 2013, at 7:19 PM, Steven Caron  wrote:

> they, you, need a better PR department.
> 
> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
> 
> *written with my thumbs
> 
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>> 
>> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel free.
> 

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

So they have a scarcely maintained aging PoS they are still managing to
sell for gazillions as a high prestige product, and have insofar managed to
distract the audience from the fact the emperor is freeballing it, and
you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat
trick off to be replaced? :)

They do feel increasingly dysfunctional in their communication and user
base management, but so does nearly any large enough media oriented large
house these days. Only the Foundry seems to be closer in touch with the top
tiers of the VFX industry.
It's very possible AD is simply more Adobe than Alias/Soft, and we just
can't (nor should we be supposed to) be served by a company with that kind
of mentality.

All that said, Foundry is doing better than ok and they seem to care a lot
for the VFX business at many levels, unlike AD as a larger entity (which
you have to remember is NOT Soft or Alias), and pipelines are going atomic
with OSS glue, so the days of Maya/Soft/MAX not being required across the
whole pipe are upon us already.

When you think about it already entire chunks of the pipe in the top end
reflect that, and a lot of that is trickling down to the middle, and will
soon enough trickle further down again.
With Katana + PRMan + Alembic Surfacing and lighting is likely the next bit
breaking off the AD continent, much like modelling did already with ZB +
Topogun.
If Fabric manages to wedge in with splice and slowly abstract things away
from Maya and convert it from host to client of platform, that's another
big chunk going.
There is less every day in an A to B scenario I open Soft or Maya for
really.

Whether that'll be viable for the small user, given the small user needs
the whole stretch of software for himself and doesn't get to divide the
expense across departments only needing parts of it like the bigger pipes
do, well, that remains to be seen. The monopoly feels less and less like
it's going to stay every day though.

If you're a small unit or work in a small shop, maybe it's time to stop
thinking like they want you to, that you NEED the all in one, and start
figuring out how you can re-engineer a staged process into your needs and
workflow.
I'm succeeding pretty well at home these days, better than I ever expected
to. Even as an individual I'm finding the big-arse DCC apps are more and
more expensive OGL and graph eval hosts than anything else.
This was simply impossible five years ago, We could barely do it at the
300+ staff project scale, now... not so much.


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:

> Frankly M&E AD needs new TOP down leadership
>
> It's so beyond broken that no matter how hard the people below them try to
> show them the light they refuse to look.
>
>  They still think Flame is still a valid product.. Single threaded piece
> of poo IMO.  I am so surprised they can still sell the product at all,
> especially for the outrageous prices. There are just a lot of people who
> have not realized yet that the emperor has no clothes.
>
> And Maya is the future of 3d ... A code base nearing or past its 15 year
> mark... Really?
>
> Sorry but I am just not a happy AD customer.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 7:19 PM, Steven Caron  wrote:
>
> they, you, need a better PR department.
>
> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
>
> *written with my thumbs
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>
>
> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel free.
>
>
>


-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: Future of Naiad

[Greg Punchatz]

Ha! Good point on the flame .. I still maintain the emperor has no clothes;) 

I am a complete believer in atomic software. I think it would allow for greater 
innovation in each key area. Zbrush proved that to me.

I am looking for someone to step up to the plate In the areas of rigging and 
animation. I'm hoping the guys over at fabric engine might do something for us 
in that regard. I know much higher frame rates are possible at this point if 
all a program had to do was to spend it cycles on those two areas, it is 
absolutely ridiculous that people have to play blast there animations to view 
to see it at full frame rate IMO. There is no app that focuses squarely on that 
subject right now. There are countless modeling, painting programs.

For myself and and Janimation I want us to move away from the single beast 
program mentality. I plan to keep soft the glue that keeps it all together for 
now and the foreseeable near future.. 

Right now I'm really enjoying learning Mari, I bought that for home because I 
really don't see any other competition in that area. Because it squarely 
focused on 3-D paint, it got so many things right.  Granted it took till 2.0 
before I thought it was good enough to jump on board. Now that I'm there I 
could not be happier.

Clairese looks very interesting to me, it almost seems too good to be true.

Arnold keeps me happy when I can use it, as we have a limited license pool for 
the time being.

I love Nuke as well, but I don't know it well enough for my taste yet.

Modo has me interested as well, curious how the foundry leverages its render 
engine. I tried it once and found clunky, but did not give it enough of a 
chance.

I also want us to move to an Alembic pipeline ASAP ... That's the next big 
thing that I need to get pushed thru at the office.

I'm just a bit grumpy on where we sit, I just wish things would've turned out 
differently. C'est la vie.

Sent from someone using his thumbs , Siri, and a healthy dose of dyslexia ... 

On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, Raffaele Fragapane  
wrote:

> So they have a scarcely maintained aging PoS they are still managing to sell 
> for gazillions as a high prestige product, and have insofar managed to 
> distract the audience from the fact the emperor is freeballing it, and you'd 
> go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat trick off to 
> be replaced? :)
> 
> They do feel increasingly dysfunctional in their communication and user base 
> management, but so does nearly any large enough media oriented large house 
> these days. Only the Foundry seems to be closer in touch with the top tiers 
> of the VFX industry.
> It's very possible AD is simply more Adobe than Alias/Soft, and we just can't 
> (nor should we be supposed to) be served by a company with that kind of 
> mentality.
> 
> All that said, Foundry is doing better than ok and they seem to care a lot 
> for the VFX business at many levels, unlike AD as a larger entity (which you 
> have to remember is NOT Soft or Alias), and pipelines are going atomic with 
> OSS glue, so the days of Maya/Soft/MAX not being required across the whole 
> pipe are upon us already.
> 
> When you think about it already entire chunks of the pipe in the top end 
> reflect that, and a lot of that is trickling down to the middle, and will 
> soon enough trickle further down again.
> With Katana + PRMan + Alembic Surfacing and lighting is likely the next bit 
> breaking off the AD continent, much like modelling did already with ZB + 
> Topogun.
> If Fabric manages to wedge in with splice and slowly abstract things away 
> from Maya and convert it from host to client of platform, that's another big 
> chunk going.
> There is less every day in an A to B scenario I open Soft or Maya for really.
> 
> Whether that'll be viable for the small user, given the small user needs the 
> whole stretch of software for himself and doesn't get to divide the expense 
> across departments only needing parts of it like the bigger pipes do, well, 
> that remains to be seen. The monopoly feels less and less like it's going to 
> stay every day though.
> 
> If you're a small unit or work in a small shop, maybe it's time to stop 
> thinking like they want you to, that you NEED the all in one, and start 
> figuring out how you can re-engineer a staged process into your needs and 
> workflow.
> I'm succeeding pretty well at home these days, better than I ever expected 
> to. Even as an individual I'm finding the big-arse DCC apps are more and more 
> expensive OGL and graph eval hosts than anything else.
> This was simply impossible five years ago, We could barely do it at the 300+ 
> staff project scale, now... not so much.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:
>> Frankly M&E AD needs new TOP down leadership
>> 
>> It's so beyond broken that no matter how hard the people below them try to 
>> show them the light they refuse to look.
>> 
>>  They still think Flame is still

Re: Future of Naiad

[Eric Thivierge]

Speculating from Siggraph not having attended the Autodesk user event
knowing they would have nothing of interest to show me, it's apparent they
will be discontinuing all DCCs and focusing their efforts selling their new
product Autodesk Blender.

Frankly i find the absence of Autodesk at the Siggraph floor either
arrogant or just plain stupid.

Very apparent from all the talks this year that no one is really taking
Maya seriously for effects work aside from some bits of naiad. SideFx is
taking charge in a big way and have some big stuff coming not including
Houdini Engine.

Sincerely,
Your embedded Siggraph journalist
On Jul 24, 2013 8:03 PM, "Greg Punchatz"  wrote:

> Ha! Good point on the flame .. I still maintain the emperor has no
> clothes;)
>
> I am a complete believer in atomic software. I think it would allow for
> greater innovation in each key area. Zbrush proved that to me.
>
> I am looking for someone to step up to the plate In the areas of rigging
> and animation. I'm hoping the guys over at fabric engine might do something
> for us in that regard. I know much higher frame rates are possible at this
> point if all a program had to do was to spend it cycles on those two areas,
> it is absolutely ridiculous that people have to play blast there animations
> to view to see it at full frame rate IMO. There is no app that focuses
> squarely on that subject right now. There are countless modeling, painting
> programs.
>
> For myself and and Janimation I want us to move away from the single beast
> program mentality. I plan to keep soft the glue that keeps it all together
> for now and the foreseeable near future..
>
> Right now I'm really enjoying learning Mari, I bought that for home
> because I really don't see any other competition in that area. Because it
> squarely focused on 3-D paint, it got so many things right.  Granted it
> took till 2.0 before I thought it was good enough to jump on board. Now
> that I'm there I could not be happier.
>
> Clairese looks very interesting to me, it almost seems too good to be true.
>
> Arnold keeps me happy when I can use it, as we have a limited license pool
> for the time being.
>
> I love Nuke as well, but I don't know it well enough for my taste yet.
>
> Modo has me interested as well, curious how the foundry leverages its
> render engine. I tried it once and found clunky, but did not give it enough
> of a chance.
>
> I also want us to move to an Alembic pipeline ASAP ... That's the next big
> thing that I need to get pushed thru at the office.
>
> I'm just a bit grumpy on where we sit, I just wish things would've turned
> out differently. C'est la vie.
>
> Sent from someone using his thumbs , Siri, and a healthy dose of dyslexia
> ...
>
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> So they have a scarcely maintained aging PoS they are still managing to
> sell for gazillions as a high prestige product, and have insofar managed to
> distract the audience from the fact the emperor is freeballing it, and
> you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat
> trick off to be replaced? :)
>
> They do feel increasingly dysfunctional in their communication and user
> base management, but so does nearly any large enough media oriented large
> house these days. Only the Foundry seems to be closer in touch with the top
> tiers of the VFX industry.
> It's very possible AD is simply more Adobe than Alias/Soft, and we just
> can't (nor should we be supposed to) be served by a company with that kind
> of mentality.
>
> All that said, Foundry is doing better than ok and they seem to care a lot
> for the VFX business at many levels, unlike AD as a larger entity (which
> you have to remember is NOT Soft or Alias), and pipelines are going atomic
> with OSS glue, so the days of Maya/Soft/MAX not being required across the
> whole pipe are upon us already.
>
> When you think about it already entire chunks of the pipe in the top end
> reflect that, and a lot of that is trickling down to the middle, and will
> soon enough trickle further down again.
> With Katana + PRMan + Alembic Surfacing and lighting is likely the next
> bit breaking off the AD continent, much like modelling did already with ZB
> + Topogun.
> If Fabric manages to wedge in with splice and slowly abstract things away
> from Maya and convert it from host to client of platform, that's another
> big chunk going.
> There is less every day in an A to B scenario I open Soft or Maya for
> really.
>
> Whether that'll be viable for the small user, given the small user needs
> the whole stretch of software for himself and doesn't get to divide the
> expense across departments only needing parts of it like the bigger pipes
> do, well, that remains to be seen. The monopoly feels less and less like
> it's going to stay every day though.
>
> If you're a small unit or work in a small shop, maybe it's time to stop
> thinking like they want you to, that you N

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

I'm not quite sure I can fault them for not having their own floor space.
They were present at some partners', but Siggraph having shifted crowd and
attitude a fair bit I'm not sure they would have got a ton of mileage out
of their own, not to mention their big news came out months ago with the
2014 releases, and if they have nothing for this quarter they can't
basically show anything else.

I can see why a big user event and floor presence scattered at other stands
would have been a better use of money for them.


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Eric Thivierge wrote:

> Speculating from Siggraph not having attended the Autodesk user event
> knowing they would have nothing of interest to show me, it's apparent they
> will be discontinuing all DCCs and focusing their efforts selling their new
> product Autodesk Blender.
>
> Frankly i find the absence of Autodesk at the Siggraph floor either
> arrogant or just plain stupid.
>
> Very apparent from all the talks this year that no one is really taking
> Maya seriously for effects work aside from some bits of naiad. SideFx is
> taking charge in a big way and have some big stuff coming not including
> Houdini Engine.
>
> Sincerely,
> Your embedded Siggraph journalist
> On Jul 24, 2013 8:03 PM, "Greg Punchatz"  wrote:
>
>> Ha! Good point on the flame .. I still maintain the emperor has no
>> clothes;)
>>
>> I am a complete believer in atomic software. I think it would allow for
>> greater innovation in each key area. Zbrush proved that to me.
>>
>> I am looking for someone to step up to the plate In the areas of rigging
>> and animation. I'm hoping the guys over at fabric engine might do something
>> for us in that regard. I know much higher frame rates are possible at this
>> point if all a program had to do was to spend it cycles on those two areas,
>> it is absolutely ridiculous that people have to play blast there animations
>> to view to see it at full frame rate IMO. There is no app that focuses
>> squarely on that subject right now. There are countless modeling, painting
>> programs.
>>
>> For myself and and Janimation I want us to move away from the single
>> beast program mentality. I plan to keep soft the glue that keeps it all
>> together for now and the foreseeable near future..
>>
>> Right now I'm really enjoying learning Mari, I bought that for home
>> because I really don't see any other competition in that area. Because it
>> squarely focused on 3-D paint, it got so many things right.  Granted it
>> took till 2.0 before I thought it was good enough to jump on board. Now
>> that I'm there I could not be happier.
>>
>> Clairese looks very interesting to me, it almost seems too good to be
>> true.
>>
>> Arnold keeps me happy when I can use it, as we have a limited license
>> pool for the time being.
>>
>> I love Nuke as well, but I don't know it well enough for my taste yet.
>>
>> Modo has me interested as well, curious how the foundry leverages its
>> render engine. I tried it once and found clunky, but did not give it enough
>> of a chance.
>>
>> I also want us to move to an Alembic pipeline ASAP ... That's the next
>> big thing that I need to get pushed thru at the office.
>>
>> I'm just a bit grumpy on where we sit, I just wish things would've turned
>> out differently. C'est la vie.
>>
>> Sent from someone using his thumbs , Siri, and a healthy dose of dyslexia
>> ...
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So they have a scarcely maintained aging PoS they are still managing to
>> sell for gazillions as a high prestige product, and have insofar managed to
>> distract the audience from the fact the emperor is freeballing it, and
>> you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat
>> trick off to be replaced? :)
>>
>> They do feel increasingly dysfunctional in their communication and user
>> base management, but so does nearly any large enough media oriented large
>> house these days. Only the Foundry seems to be closer in touch with the top
>> tiers of the VFX industry.
>> It's very possible AD is simply more Adobe than Alias/Soft, and we just
>> can't (nor should we be supposed to) be served by a company with that kind
>> of mentality.
>>
>> All that said, Foundry is doing better than ok and they seem to care a
>> lot for the VFX business at many levels, unlike AD as a larger entity
>> (which you have to remember is NOT Soft or Alias), and pipelines are going
>> atomic with OSS glue, so the days of Maya/Soft/MAX not being required
>> across the whole pipe are upon us already.
>>
>> When you think about it already entire chunks of the pipe in the top end
>> reflect that, and a lot of that is trickling down to the middle, and will
>> soon enough trickle further down again.
>> With Katana + PRMan + Alembic Surfacing and lighting is likely the next
>> bit breaking off the AD continent, much like modelling did already with ZB
>> + Topogun.
>> If Fabric manages to wedge

Re: Future of Naiad

[Eric Thivierge]

Hah, if you can call it a presence at all...
On Jul 24, 2013 9:20 PM, "Raffaele Fragapane" 
wrote:

> I'm not quite sure I can fault them for not having their own floor space.
> They were present at some partners', but Siggraph having shifted crowd and
> attitude a fair bit I'm not sure they would have got a ton of mileage out
> of their own, not to mention their big news came out months ago with the
> 2014 releases, and if they have nothing for this quarter they can't
> basically show anything else.
>
> I can see why a big user event and floor presence scattered at other
> stands would have been a better use of money for them.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Eric Thivierge wrote:
>
>> Speculating from Siggraph not having attended the Autodesk user event
>> knowing they would have nothing of interest to show me, it's apparent they
>> will be discontinuing all DCCs and focusing their efforts selling their new
>> product Autodesk Blender.
>>
>> Frankly i find the absence of Autodesk at the Siggraph floor either
>> arrogant or just plain stupid.
>>
>> Very apparent from all the talks this year that no one is really taking
>> Maya seriously for effects work aside from some bits of naiad. SideFx is
>> taking charge in a big way and have some big stuff coming not including
>> Houdini Engine.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Your embedded Siggraph journalist
>> On Jul 24, 2013 8:03 PM, "Greg Punchatz"  wrote:
>>
>>> Ha! Good point on the flame .. I still maintain the emperor has no
>>> clothes;)
>>>
>>> I am a complete believer in atomic software. I think it would allow for
>>> greater innovation in each key area. Zbrush proved that to me.
>>>
>>> I am looking for someone to step up to the plate In the areas of rigging
>>> and animation. I'm hoping the guys over at fabric engine might do something
>>> for us in that regard. I know much higher frame rates are possible at this
>>> point if all a program had to do was to spend it cycles on those two areas,
>>> it is absolutely ridiculous that people have to play blast there animations
>>> to view to see it at full frame rate IMO. There is no app that focuses
>>> squarely on that subject right now. There are countless modeling, painting
>>> programs.
>>>
>>> For myself and and Janimation I want us to move away from the single
>>> beast program mentality. I plan to keep soft the glue that keeps it all
>>> together for now and the foreseeable near future..
>>>
>>> Right now I'm really enjoying learning Mari, I bought that for home
>>> because I really don't see any other competition in that area. Because it
>>> squarely focused on 3-D paint, it got so many things right.  Granted it
>>> took till 2.0 before I thought it was good enough to jump on board. Now
>>> that I'm there I could not be happier.
>>>
>>> Clairese looks very interesting to me, it almost seems too good to be
>>> true.
>>>
>>> Arnold keeps me happy when I can use it, as we have a limited license
>>> pool for the time being.
>>>
>>> I love Nuke as well, but I don't know it well enough for my taste yet.
>>>
>>> Modo has me interested as well, curious how the foundry leverages its
>>> render engine. I tried it once and found clunky, but did not give it enough
>>> of a chance.
>>>
>>> I also want us to move to an Alembic pipeline ASAP ... That's the next
>>> big thing that I need to get pushed thru at the office.
>>>
>>> I'm just a bit grumpy on where we sit, I just wish things would've
>>> turned out differently. C'est la vie.
>>>
>>> Sent from someone using his thumbs , Siri, and a healthy dose
>>> of dyslexia ...
>>>
>>> On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> So they have a scarcely maintained aging PoS they are still managing to
>>> sell for gazillions as a high prestige product, and have insofar managed to
>>> distract the audience from the fact the emperor is freeballing it, and
>>> you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat
>>> trick off to be replaced? :)
>>>
>>> They do feel increasingly dysfunctional in their communication and user
>>> base management, but so does nearly any large enough media oriented large
>>> house these days. Only the Foundry seems to be closer in touch with the top
>>> tiers of the VFX industry.
>>> It's very possible AD is simply more Adobe than Alias/Soft, and we just
>>> can't (nor should we be supposed to) be served by a company with that kind
>>> of mentality.
>>>
>>> All that said, Foundry is doing better than ok and they seem to care a
>>> lot for the VFX business at many levels, unlike AD as a larger entity
>>> (which you have to remember is NOT Soft or Alias), and pipelines are going
>>> atomic with OSS glue, so the days of Maya/Soft/MAX not being required
>>> across the whole pipe are upon us already.
>>>
>>> When you think about it already entire chunks of the pipe in the top end
>>> reflect that, and a lot of that is trickling down to the middle, and will
>>> soon enough trickle furth

Re: Future of Naiad

[Jordi Bares]

Given we are in an Autodesk forum and given the basic etiquette I will only say 
we are in a major tectonic shift and imho Autodesk need to show some goods 
yesterday.

Jordi Bares
jordiba...@gmail.com

On 25 Jul 2013, at 08:48, Eric Thivierge  wrote:

> Hah, if you can call it a presence at all...
> 
> On Jul 24, 2013 9:20 PM, "Raffaele Fragapane"  
> wrote:
> I'm not quite sure I can fault them for not having their own floor space.
> They were present at some partners', but Siggraph having shifted crowd and 
> attitude a fair bit I'm not sure they would have got a ton of mileage out of 
> their own, not to mention their big news came out months ago with the 2014 
> releases, and if they have nothing for this quarter they can't basically show 
> anything else.
> 
> I can see why a big user event and floor presence scattered at other stands 
> would have been a better use of money for them.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Eric Thivierge  wrote:
> Speculating from Siggraph not having attended the Autodesk user event knowing 
> they would have nothing of interest to show me, it's apparent they will be 
> discontinuing all DCCs and focusing their efforts selling their new product 
> Autodesk Blender.
> 
> Frankly i find the absence of Autodesk at the Siggraph floor either arrogant 
> or just plain stupid.
> 
> Very apparent from all the talks this year that no one is really taking Maya 
> seriously for effects work aside from some bits of naiad. SideFx is taking 
> charge in a big way and have some big stuff coming not including Houdini 
> Engine.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Your embedded Siggraph journalist
> 
> On Jul 24, 2013 8:03 PM, "Greg Punchatz"  wrote:
> Ha! Good point on the flame .. I still maintain the emperor has no clothes;) 
> 
> I am a complete believer in atomic software. I think it would allow for 
> greater innovation in each key area. Zbrush proved that to me.
> 
> I am looking for someone to step up to the plate In the areas of rigging and 
> animation. I'm hoping the guys over at fabric engine might do something for 
> us in that regard. I know much higher frame rates are possible at this point 
> if all a program had to do was to spend it cycles on those two areas, it is 
> absolutely ridiculous that people have to play blast there animations to view 
> to see it at full frame rate IMO. There is no app that focuses squarely on 
> that subject right now. There are countless modeling, painting programs.
> 
> For myself and and Janimation I want us to move away from the single beast 
> program mentality. I plan to keep soft the glue that keeps it all together 
> for now and the foreseeable near future.. 
> 
> Right now I'm really enjoying learning Mari, I bought that for home because I 
> really don't see any other competition in that area. Because it squarely 
> focused on 3-D paint, it got so many things right.  Granted it took till 2.0 
> before I thought it was good enough to jump on board. Now that I'm there I 
> could not be happier.
> 
> Clairese looks very interesting to me, it almost seems too good to be true.
> 
> Arnold keeps me happy when I can use it, as we have a limited license pool 
> for the time being.
> 
> I love Nuke as well, but I don't know it well enough for my taste yet.
> 
> Modo has me interested as well, curious how the foundry leverages its render 
> engine. I tried it once and found clunky, but did not give it enough of a 
> chance.
> 
> I also want us to move to an Alembic pipeline ASAP ... That's the next big 
> thing that I need to get pushed thru at the office.
> 
> I'm just a bit grumpy on where we sit, I just wish things would've turned out 
> differently. C'est la vie.
> 
> Sent from someone using his thumbs , Siri, and a healthy dose of dyslexia ... 
> 
> On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, Raffaele Fragapane  
> wrote:
> 
>> So they have a scarcely maintained aging PoS they are still managing to sell 
>> for gazillions as a high prestige product, and have insofar managed to 
>> distract the audience from the fact the emperor is freeballing it, and you'd 
>> go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat trick off 
>> to be replaced? :)
>> 
>> They do feel increasingly dysfunctional in their communication and user base 
>> management, but so does nearly any large enough media oriented large house 
>> these days. Only the Foundry seems to be closer in touch with the top tiers 
>> of the VFX industry.
>> It's very possible AD is simply more Adobe than Alias/Soft, and we just 
>> can't (nor should we be supposed to) be served by a company with that kind 
>> of mentality.
>> 
>> All that said, Foundry is doing better than ok and they seem to care a lot 
>> for the VFX business at many levels, unlike AD as a larger entity (which you 
>> have to remember is NOT Soft or Alias), and pipelines are going atomic with 
>> OSS glue, so the days of Maya/Soft/MAX not being required across the whole 
>> pipe are upon us already.
>> 
>> When you think about it

Re: Future of Naiad

[Rob Chapman]

this is a forum with Autodesk etiquette..? very broadly speaking..  :)  you
and me as well as countless others were on here long before it was AD who
owned the server where this mailing list lived, and hopefully many will
still be on here when it changes hands yet again. its been utter lackluster
so far from its current owners including the potential Naiad / bifrost
debacle therefore fingers crossed from me this earthquake happens sooner
rather than later!


On 25 July 2013 10:35, Jordi Bares  wrote:

> Given we are in an Autodesk forum and given the basic etiquette I will
> only say we are in a major tectonic shift and imho Autodesk need to show
> some goods yesterday.
>
>  Jordi Bares
> jordiba...@gmail.com
>
> On 25 Jul 2013, at 08:48, Eric Thivierge  wrote:
>
> Hah, if you can call it a presence at all...
> On Jul 24, 2013 9:20 PM, "Raffaele Fragapane" 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not quite sure I can fault them for not having their own floor space.
>> They were present at some partners', but Siggraph having shifted crowd
>> and attitude a fair bit I'm not sure they would have got a ton of mileage
>> out of their own, not to mention their big news came out months ago with
>> the 2014 releases, and if they have nothing for this quarter they can't
>> basically show anything else.
>>
>> I can see why a big user event and floor presence scattered at other
>> stands would have been a better use of money for them.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Eric Thivierge wrote:
>>
>>> Speculating from Siggraph not having attended the Autodesk user event
>>> knowing they would have nothing of interest to show me, it's apparent they
>>> will be discontinuing all DCCs and focusing their efforts selling their new
>>> product Autodesk Blender.
>>>
>>> Frankly i find the absence of Autodesk at the Siggraph floor either
>>> arrogant or just plain stupid.
>>>
>>> Very apparent from all the talks this year that no one is really taking
>>> Maya seriously for effects work aside from some bits of naiad. SideFx is
>>> taking charge in a big way and have some big stuff coming not including
>>> Houdini Engine.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Your embedded Siggraph journalist
>>> On Jul 24, 2013 8:03 PM, "Greg Punchatz"  wrote:
>>>
 Ha! Good point on the flame .. I still maintain the emperor has no
 clothes;)

 I am a complete believer in atomic software. I think it would allow for
 greater innovation in each key area. Zbrush proved that to me.

 I am looking for someone to step up to the plate In the areas of
 rigging and animation. I'm hoping the guys over at fabric engine might do
 something for us in that regard. I know much higher frame rates are
 possible at this point if all a program had to do was to spend it cycles on
 those two areas, it is absolutely ridiculous that people have to play blast
 there animations to view to see it at full frame rate IMO. There is no app
 that focuses squarely on that subject right now. There are countless
 modeling, painting programs.

 For myself and and Janimation I want us to move away from the single
 beast program mentality. I plan to keep soft the glue that keeps it all
 together for now and the foreseeable near future..

 Right now I'm really enjoying learning Mari, I bought that for home
 because I really don't see any other competition in that area. Because it
 squarely focused on 3-D paint, it got so many things right.  Granted it
 took till 2.0 before I thought it was good enough to jump on board. Now
 that I'm there I could not be happier.

 Clairese looks very interesting to me, it almost seems too good to be
 true.

 Arnold keeps me happy when I can use it, as we have a limited license
 pool for the time being.

 I love Nuke as well, but I don't know it well enough for my taste yet.

 Modo has me interested as well, curious how the foundry leverages its
 render engine. I tried it once and found clunky, but did not give it enough
 of a chance.

 I also want us to move to an Alembic pipeline ASAP ... That's the next
 big thing that I need to get pushed thru at the office.

 I'm just a bit grumpy on where we sit, I just wish things would've
 turned out differently. C'est la vie.

 Sent from someone using his thumbs , Siri, and a healthy dose
 of dyslexia ...

 On Jul 24, 2013, at 8:50 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
 raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:

 So they have a scarcely maintained aging PoS they are still managing to
 sell for gazillions as a high prestige product, and have insofar managed to
 distract the audience from the fact the emperor is freeballing it, and
 you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat
 trick off to be replaced? :)

 They do feel increasingly dysfunctional in their communication and user
 base management, but so does ne

RE: Future of Naiad

[Graham Bell]

Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games Solutions 
group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the Max underground 
site


Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.

Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled last 
minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous years. As a 
corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the roadmap of our products 
anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by revenue 
accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with Siggraph, 
this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.

This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to share 
the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.

Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user event 
and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya was ready 
for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is gearing up for a 
update soon and we will be discussing the details of that in the near 
future.The timing wasn’t right for Siggraph. Again not always in our control on 
what trade show they line up to.

On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was designed 
for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max was designed 
for the democratization of content creation for all markets. So Maya may be 
better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for out of the box 
artist toolset for a broader markets.

It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment 
features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets, from 
design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist only, you 
may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max depending on the 
releases.

When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant 
changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also put 
a significant focus on “small annoying things”. This resulted in some 
significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some 
workflows.

Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for Max’s 
continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some impressive 
features.

As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple of 
years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had 
significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire teams to 
make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun features :).

As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from our 
customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for design 
viz.

For the Niad\Bifrost concern, Bifrost is being developed as an engine with Maya 
as the first customer. We aren’t disclosing many details at the moment, but 
it’s being designed to be agnostic to any one specific tool.

I hope that clarifies a few things for everyone.
Frank DeLise -


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman
Sent: 25 July 2013 10:01
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

this is a forum with Autodesk etiquette..? very broadly speaking..  :)  you and 
me as well as countless others were on here long before it was AD who owned the 
server where this mailing list lived, and hopefully many will still be on here 
when it changes hands yet again. its been utter lackluster so far from its 
current owners including the potential Naiad / bifrost debacle therefore 
fingers crossed from me this earthquake happens sooner rather than later!

On 25 July 2013 10:35, Jordi Bares 
mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Given we are in an Autodesk forum and given the basic etiquette I will only say 
we are in a major tectonic shift and imho Autodesk need to show some goods 
yesterday.

Jordi Bares
jordiba...@gmail.com<mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>

On 25 Jul 2013, at 08:48, Eric Thivierge 
mailto:ethivie...@gmail.com>> wrote:



Hah, if you can call it a presence at all...
On Jul 24, 2013 9:20 PM, "Raffaele Fragapane" 
mailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
I'm not quite sure I can fault them for not having their own floor space.
They were present at some partners', but Siggraph having shifted crowd and 
attitude a fair bit I'm not sure they would have got a ton of mileage out of 
their own, not to mention their big news came out months ago with the 2014 
releases, and if they have nothing for this quarter they can't basically show 
anything else.
I can see why a big user event and floor presence scattered at other stands 
would have been a better use of money for them.

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:09 PM, Eric Thivierge 
mailto:ethivie...@gmail.com&g

Re: Future of Naiad

[Massimo Galluzzo]

Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.

Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a bugfix 
phase untill it dies so we know already.

This is pathetic.



-Messaggio originale- 
From: Graham Bell

Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Future of Naiad

Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games 
Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the Max 
underground site



Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.

Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled 
last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous 
years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the roadmap of our 
products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by 
revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with 
Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.


This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to share 
the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.


Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user 
event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya 
was ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is 
gearing up for a update soon and we will be discussing the details of that 
in the near future.The timing wasn’t right for Siggraph. Again not always in 
our control on what trade show they line up to.


On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was 
designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max was 
designed for the democratization of content creation for all markets. So 
Maya may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for out 
of the box artist toolset for a broader markets.


It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment 
features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets, from 
design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist only, 
you may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max depending on 
the releases.


When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant 
changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also 
put a significant focus on “small annoying things”. This resulted in some 
significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some 
workflows.


Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for 
Max’s continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some 
impressive features.


As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple of 
years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had 
significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire teams 
to make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun 
features :).


As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from 
our customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for 
design viz.


For the Niad\Bifrost concern, Bifrost is being developed as an engine with 
Maya as the first customer. We aren’t disclosing many details at the moment, 
but it’s being designed to be agnostic to any one specific tool.


I hope that clarifies a few things for everyone.
Frank DeLise -


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman

Sent: 25 July 2013 10:01
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

this is a forum with Autodesk etiquette..? very broadly speaking..  :)  you 
and me as well as countless others were on here long before it was AD who 
owned the server where this mailing list lived, and hopefully many will 
still be on here when it changes hands yet again. its been utter lackluster 
so far from its current owners including the potential Naiad / bifrost 
debacle therefore fingers crossed from me this earthquake happens sooner 
rather than later!


On 25 July 2013 10:35, Jordi Bares 
mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Given we are in an Autodesk forum and given the basic etiquette I will only 
say we are in a major tectonic shift and imho Autodesk need to show some 
goods yesterday.


Jordi Bares
jordiba...@gmail.com<mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>

On 25 Jul 2013, at 08:48, Eric Thivierge 
mailto:ethivie...@gmail.com>> wrote:




Hah, if you can call it a presence at all...
On Jul 24, 2013 9:20 PM, "Raffaele Fragapane" 
mailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com>> wrote:

I'm not quite sure I can fault them for not having their own floor space.
They were present at some partners', but Siggraph having shifted crowd and 
attitude a fair bit I'm not sure they would have got a ton o

RE: Future of Naiad

[Graham Bell]

Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on a Max 
site. 

I posted this just to add some additional info.

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Massimo Galluzzo
Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.

Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a bugfix 
phase untill it dies so we know already.
This is pathetic.



-Messaggio originale- 
From: Graham Bell
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Future of Naiad

Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games 
Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the Max 
underground site


Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.

Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled 
last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous 
years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the roadmap of our 
products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by 
revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with 
Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.

This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to share 
the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.

Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user 
event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya 
was ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is 
gearing up for a update soon and we will be discussing the details of that 
in the near future.The timing wasn’t right for Siggraph. Again not always in 
our control on what trade show they line up to.

On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was 
designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max was 
designed for the democratization of content creation for all markets. So 
Maya may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for out 
of the box artist toolset for a broader markets.

It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment 
features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets, from 
design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist only, 
you may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max depending on 
the releases.

When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant 
changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also 
put a significant focus on “small annoying things”. This resulted in some 
significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some 
workflows.

Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for 
Max’s continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some 
impressive features.

As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple of 
years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had 
significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire teams 
to make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun 
features :).

As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from 
our customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for 
design viz.

For the Niad\Bifrost concern, Bifrost is being developed as an engine with 
Maya as the first customer. We aren’t disclosing many details at the moment, 
but it’s being designed to be agnostic to any one specific tool.

I hope that clarifies a few things for everyone.
Frank DeLise -


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman
Sent: 25 July 2013 10:01
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

this is a forum with Autodesk etiquette..? very broadly speaking..  :)  you 
and me as well as countless others were on here long before it was AD who 
owned the server where this mailing list lived, and hopefully many will 
still be on here when it changes hands yet again. its been utter lackluster 
so far from its current owners including the potential Naiad / bifrost 
debacle therefore fingers crossed from me this earthquake happens sooner 
rather than later!

On 25 July 2013 10:35, Jordi Bares 
mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Given we are in an Autodesk forum and given the basic etiquette I will only 
say we are in a major tectonic shift and imho Autodesk need to show some 
goods yesterday.

Jordi Bares
jordiba...@gmail.com<mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>

On 25 Jul 2013, at 08:48, Eric Thivierge 
mailto:ethivie...@gmail.com>> wrote:



Hah, if you can 

Re: Future of Naiad

[Ahmidou Lyazidi]

That's because no one at AD, but the peoples that are working on it, have
heard of Softimage :)

---
Ahmidou Lyazidi
Director | TD | CG artist
http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos
http://www.cappuccino-films.com


2013/7/25 Massimo Galluzzo 

> Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
>
> Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a bugfix
> phase untill it dies so we know already.
> This is pathetic.
>
>
>
> -Messaggio originale- From: Graham Bell
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com 
> Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
>
>
> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the
> Max underground site
>
>
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled
> last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous
> years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the roadmap of
> our products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by
> revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with
> Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.
>
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to
> share the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
>
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user
> event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya
> was ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is
> gearing up for a update soon and we will be discussing the details of that
> in the near future.The timing wasn’t right for Siggraph. Again not always
> in our control on what trade show they line up to.
>
> On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was
> designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max
> was designed for the democratization of content creation for all markets.
> So Maya may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for
> out of the box artist toolset for a broader markets.
>
> It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment
> features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets,
> from design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist
> only, you may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max
> depending on the releases.
>
> When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant
> changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also
> put a significant focus on “small annoying things”. This resulted in some
> significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some
> workflows.
>
> Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for
> Max’s continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some
> impressive features.
>
> As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple
> of years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had
> significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire
> teams to make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun
> features :).
>
> As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from
> our customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for
> design viz.
>
> For the Niad\Bifrost concern, Bifrost is being developed as an engine with
> Maya as the first customer. We aren’t disclosing many details at the
> moment, but it’s being designed to be agnostic to any one specific tool.
>
> I hope that clarifies a few things for everyone.
> Frank DeLise -
>
>
> From: 
> softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com[mailto:
> softimage-bounces@**listproc.autodesk.com]
> On Behalf Of Rob Chapman
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:01
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com 
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> this is a forum with Autodesk etiquette..? very broadly speaking..  :)
>  you and me as well as countless others were on here long before it was AD
> who owned the server where this mailing list lived, and hopefully many will
> still be on here when it changes hands yet again. its been utter lackluster
> so far from its current owners including the potential Naiad / bifrost
> debacle therefore fingers crossed from me this earthquake happens sooner
> rather than later!
>
> On 25 July 2013 10:35, Jordi Bares mailto:j**
> ordiba...@gmail.com >> w

RE: Future of Naiad

[Andy Nicholas]

 > and you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that hat
 > trick off to be replaced? :)


Haha! Brilliant :)




Reading Marc Stevens' response, I think there's an issue that Autodesk are
sticking their heads in the sand about. Software like Softimage, Maya, and Max,
can't be casually assigned to cater to specific industries. It's like putting a
square peg in a round hole. The software was never designed like that. Artists
use tools based on personal preference and what they need at the time. It's got
nothing to do with what industry AD marketing decide to assign it to.


IMHO that's why there's such a huge amount of confusion in the user base as to
what's going on. That's why when Maya gets an awesome new tool for VFX work, all
the Max and Soft users get pissed off. The reasons a company or individual uses
a particular piece of software are endlessly complex but Autodesk are trying to
force it.



Instead of dealing with the complex reality, it would seem they think they can
just use a reductionist approach. I can think of lots of reasons why they're
doing this, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do. For them or us.







On 25 July 2013 at 10:29 Graham Bell  wrote:

> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the Max
> underground site
>
>
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled last
> minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous years. As a
> corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the roadmap of our products
> anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by revenue
> accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with Siggraph,
> this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.
>
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to share
> the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
>
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user
> event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya was
> ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is gearing up
> for a update soon and we will be discussing the details of that in the near
> future.The timing wasn’t right for Siggraph. Again not always in our control
> on what trade show they line up to.
>
> On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was
> designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max was
> designed for the democratization of content creation for all markets. So Maya
> may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for out of the
> box artist toolset for a broader markets.
>
> It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment
> features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets, from
> design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist only, you
> may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max depending on the
> releases.
>
> When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant
> changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also put
> a significant focus on “small annoying things”. This resulted in some
> significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some
> workflows.
>
> Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for
> Max’s continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some impressive
> features.
>
> As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple of
> years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had
> significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire teams
> to make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun features
> :).
>
> As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from our
> customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for design
> viz.
>
> For the Niad\Bifrost concern, Bifrost is being developed as an engine with
> Maya as the first customer. We aren’t disclosing many details at the moment,
> but it’s being designed to be agnostic to any one specific tool.
>
> I hope that clarifies a few things for everyone.
> Frank DeLise -
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rob Chapman
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:01
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> this is a forum with Autodesk etiquette..? very broa

RE: Future of Naiad

[adrian wyer]

you'll take my Softimage from me when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers!

lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is trousering them
in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a procedural approach to vfx,
is to hit the ground running with ICE, then they deserve to be buried by the
competition


bring it on!

a

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Andy Nicholas
Sent: 25 July 2013 11:24
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Future of Naiad

 > and you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that
hat
 > trick off to be replaced? :)


Haha! Brilliant :)




Reading Marc Stevens' response, I think there's an issue that Autodesk are
sticking their heads in the sand about. Software like Softimage, Maya, and
Max,
can't be casually assigned to cater to specific industries. It's like
putting a
square peg in a round hole. The software was never designed like that.
Artists
use tools based on personal preference and what they need at the time. It's
got
nothing to do with what industry AD marketing decide to assign it to.


IMHO that's why there's such a huge amount of confusion in the user base as
to
what's going on. That's why when Maya gets an awesome new tool for VFX work,
all
the Max and Soft users get pissed off. The reasons a company or individual
uses
a particular piece of software are endlessly complex but Autodesk are trying
to
force it.



Instead of dealing with the complex reality, it would seem they think they
can
just use a reductionist approach. I can think of lots of reasons why they're
doing this, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do. For them or us.







On 25 July 2013 at 10:29 Graham Bell  wrote:

> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the
Max
> underground site
>
>
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled
last
> minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous years.
As a
> corp company, unfortunately we can't disclose the roadmap of our products
> anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by revenue
> accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with
Siggraph,
> this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.
>
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to
share
> the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
>
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user
> event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya
was
> ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is gearing
up
> for a update soon and we will be discussing the details of that in the
near
> future.The timing wasn't right for Siggraph. Again not always in our
control
> on what trade show they line up to.
>
> On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was
> designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max
was
> designed for the democratization of content creation for all markets. So
Maya
> may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for out of
the
> box artist toolset for a broader markets.
>
> It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment
> features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets,
from
> design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist only,
you
> may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max depending on
the
> releases.
>
> When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant
> changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also
put
> a significant focus on "small annoying things". This resulted in some
> significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some
> workflows.
>
> Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for
> Max's continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some
impressive
> features.
>
> As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple
of
> years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had
> significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire
teams
> to make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun
features
> :).
>
> As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from
our
> customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for
design
> viz.
>
> For 

Re: Future of Naiad

[Stefan Kubicek]

Sad, but exactly my view of things too.


you'll take my Softimage from me when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers!

lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is trousering them
in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a procedural approach to vfx,
is to hit the ground running with ICE, then they deserve to be buried by the
competition


bring it on!

a

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Andy Nicholas
Sent: 25 July 2013 11:24
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Future of Naiad

 > and you'd go to the board asking for the management who's pulling that
hat
 > trick off to be replaced? :)


Haha! Brilliant :)




Reading Marc Stevens' response, I think there's an issue that Autodesk are
sticking their heads in the sand about. Software like Softimage, Maya, and
Max,
can't be casually assigned to cater to specific industries. It's like
putting a
square peg in a round hole. The software was never designed like that.
Artists
use tools based on personal preference and what they need at the time. It's
got
nothing to do with what industry AD marketing decide to assign it to.


IMHO that's why there's such a huge amount of confusion in the user base as
to
what's going on. That's why when Maya gets an awesome new tool for VFX work,
all
the Max and Soft users get pissed off. The reasons a company or individual
uses
a particular piece of software are endlessly complex but Autodesk are trying
to
force it.



Instead of dealing with the complex reality, it would seem they think they
can
just use a reductionist approach. I can think of lots of reasons why they're
doing this, but it doesn't make it the right thing to do. For them or us.







On 25 July 2013 at 10:29 Graham Bell  wrote:


Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the

Max

underground site


Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.

Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled

last

minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous years.

As a

corp company, unfortunately we can't disclose the roadmap of our products
anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by revenue
accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with

Siggraph,

this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.

This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to

share

the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.

Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user
event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya

was

ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is gearing

up

for a update soon and we will be discussing the details of that in the

near

future.The timing wasn't right for Siggraph. Again not always in our

control

on what trade show they line up to.

On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was
designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max

was

designed for the democratization of content creation for all markets. So

Maya

may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for out of

the

box artist toolset for a broader markets.

It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment
features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets,

from

design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist only,

you

may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max depending on

the

releases.

When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant
changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also

put

a significant focus on "small annoying things". This resulted in some
significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some
workflows.

Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for
Max's continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some

impressive

features.

As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple

of

years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had
significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire

teams

to make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun

features

:).

As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from

our

customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for

design

viz.

For the Niad\Bifrost concern, Bifrost is being developed as an engine with
Maya as the first customer. We aren't disclosing many details at the

moment,

but it's being desig

Re: Future of Naiad

[Greg Punchatz]

:( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel better.?

It almost felt like salt in a wound...

I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really don't 
have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to let it rest 
at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there are certain people 
with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the bad news...

Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man behind 
killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's position that's 
exactly what seems to be happening.

Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
I think I might have a few things to say to him.

I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my fears 
have come true..












Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell  wrote:

> Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on a Max 
> site. 
> 
> I posted this just to add some additional info.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Massimo Galluzzo
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> 
> Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
> 
> Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a bugfix 
> phase untill it dies so we know already.
> This is pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> -Messaggio originale- 
> From: Graham Bell
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
> 
> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games 
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to the Max 
> underground site
> 
> 
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
> 
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got canceled 
> last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs previous 
> years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the roadmap of our 
> products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by choice, but by 
> revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates are not aligned with 
> Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to share about our products.
> 
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to share 
> the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
> 
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph user 
> event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview for Maya 
> was ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are doing is 
> gearing up for a update soon and we will be discussing the details of that 
> in the near future.The timing wasn’t right for Siggraph. Again not always in 
> our control on what trade show they line up to.
> 
> On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was 
> designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. Max was 
> designed for the democratization of content creation for all markets. So 
> Maya may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where Max is good for out 
> of the box artist toolset for a broader markets.
> 
> It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on entertainment 
> features and the Max team divides its energy on a variation of markets, from 
> design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, if you are a VFX artist only, 
> you may see more progress on the Maya front than you do on Max depending on 
> the releases.
> 
> When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some significant 
> changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and performance. I also 
> put a significant focus on “small annoying things”. This resulted in some 
> significant performance and stability improvements and cleaned up some 
> workflows.
> 
> Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do for 
> Max’s continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some 
> impressive features.
> 
> As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past couple of 
> years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature department but had 
> significant scalability and API enhancements. Sometime it takes entire teams 
> to make big shifts like that. So let the Maya team enjoy some new fun 
> features :).
> 
> As for Max, we are hard at work on features that have been raised up from 
> our customers. Some will be for entertainment, games and some will be for 
> design viz.
> 
> For the Niad\Bifrost concern, Bifrost is bein

RE: Future of Naiad

[Graham Bell]

Fair dues Greg...

Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc and 
Frank report into him.

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

:( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel better.?

It almost felt like salt in a wound...

I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really don't 
have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to let it rest 
at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there are certain people 
with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the bad news...

Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man behind 
killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's position that's 
exactly what seems to be happening.

Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
I think I might have a few things to say to him.

I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my fears 
have come true..












Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell  wrote:

> Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on a Max 
> site. 
> 
> I posted this just to add some additional info.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Massimo 
> Galluzzo
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> 
> Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
> 
> Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a bugfix 
> phase untill it dies so we know already.
> This is pathetic.
> 
> 
> 
> -Messaggio originale-
> From: Graham Bell
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
> 
> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games 
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to 
> the Max underground site
> 
> 
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
> 
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got 
> canceled last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs 
> previous years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the 
> roadmap of our products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by 
> choice, but by revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates 
> are not aligned with Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to share 
> about our products.
> 
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to 
> share the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
> 
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph 
> user event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview 
> for Maya was ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are 
> doing is gearing up for a update soon and we will be discussing the 
> details of that in the near future.The timing wasn’t right for 
> Siggraph. Again not always in our control on what trade show they line up to.
> 
> On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed. Maya was 
> designed for entertainment customers whom need a platform to extend. 
> Max was designed for the democratization of content creation for all 
> markets. So Maya may be better for deep pipeline integration, Where 
> Max is good for out of the box artist toolset for a broader markets.
> 
> It also means that the Maya team focuses all its energy on 
> entertainment features and the Max team divides its energy on a 
> variation of markets, from design viz, VFX, Games, etc.. So naturally, 
> if you are a VFX artist only, you may see more progress on the Maya 
> front than you do on Max depending on the releases.
> 
> When I took over the product for the 2014 release, I made some 
> significant changes. I refocused a lot the energy on stability and 
> performance. I also put a significant focus on “small annoying 
> things”. This resulted in some significant performance and stability 
> improvements and cleaned up some workflows.
> 
> Did you get fluids :), No, not yet.. But it was the right thing to do 
> for Max’s continued growth. Meanwhile, we still managed to get in some 
> impressive features.
> 
> As a Maya user, you would have noticed the same thing for the past 
> couple of years where Maya was pretty dry in the new feature 
> department but had significant scalability and API enh

Re: Future of Naiad

[Paul Griswold]

Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look at what
Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?

For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent defense is
what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  It's an
extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.

A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - you
don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and then
punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the opposition
to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull out all
the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score as many
points as possible as quickly as possible.

I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
defense.

Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
etc., realize the game isn't over.

-Paul





On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell wrote:

> Fair dues Greg...
>
> Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc
> and Frank report into him.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
> Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> :( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
> better.?
>
> It almost felt like salt in a wound...
>
> I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
> don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to
> let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there
> are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the bad
> news...
>
> Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man
> behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's
> position that's exactly what seems to be happening.
>
> Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
> I think I might have a few things to say to him.
>
> I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my
> fears have come true..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>
> > Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on
> a Max site.
> >
> > I posted this just to add some additional info.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> > [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Massimo
> > Galluzzo
> > Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> > Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> >
> > Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> > Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
> >
> > Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a
> bugfix phase untill it dies so we know already.
> > This is pathetic.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Messaggio originale-
> > From: Graham Bell
> > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> > Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
> >
> > Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> > Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to
> > the Max underground site
> >
> >
> > Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
> >
> > Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got
> > canceled last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs
> > previous years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the
> > roadmap of our products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by
> > choice, but by revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates
> > are not aligned with Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to
> share about our products.
> >
> > This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to
> > share the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
> >
> > Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph
> > user event and not max? It just so happens that the technology p

Re: Future of Naiad

[Stefan Kubicek]

Doesn't prevent defense only make sense in games that have a defined end?


Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look at what
Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?

For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent defense is
what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  It's an
extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.

A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - you
don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and then
punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the opposition
to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull out all
the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score as many
points as possible as quickly as possible.

I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
defense.

Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
etc., realize the game isn't over.

-Paul





On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell wrote:


Fair dues Greg...

Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc
and Frank report into him.

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

:( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
better.?

It almost felt like salt in a wound...

I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to
let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there
are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the bad
news...

Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man
behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's
position that's exactly what seems to be happening.

Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
I think I might have a few things to say to him.

I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my
fears have come true..












Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell  wrote:

> Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on
a Max site.
>
> I posted this just to add some additional info.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Massimo
> Galluzzo
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
>
> Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a
bugfix phase untill it dies so we know already.
> This is pathetic.
>
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-
> From: Graham Bell
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
>
> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to
> the Max underground site
>
>
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got
> canceled last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs
> previous years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the
> roadmap of our products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by
> choice, but by revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates
> are not aligned with Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to
share about our products.
>
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to
> share the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
>
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph
> user event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview
> for Maya was ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we are
> doing is gearing up for a update soon and we will be discussing the
> details of that in the near future.The timing wasn’t right for
> Siggraph. Again not always in our control on what trade show they line
up to.
>
> On the general direction of Maya vs Max, nothing has changed.

Re: Future of Naiad

[Paul Griswold]

Since when did corporate thinking ever make sense?

Most are just looking at quarters & annual reports to the shareholders.
 Next year is a new game.

-Paul



On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:

> Doesn't prevent defense only make sense in games that have a defined end?
>
>  Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look at
>> what
>> Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?
>>
>> For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent defense
>> is
>> what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
>> end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  It's an
>> extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.
>>
>> A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
>> because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - you
>> don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and then
>> punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the
>> opposition
>> to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
>> points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull out all
>> the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score as
>> many
>> points as possible as quickly as possible.
>>
>> I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
>> defense.
>>
>> Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
>> defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
>> etc., realize the game isn't over.
>>
>> -Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell **
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Fair dues Greg...
>>>
>>> Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc
>>> and Frank report into him.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: 
>>> softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com[mailto:
>>> softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
>>> Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com 
>>> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>>>
>>> :( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
>>> better.?
>>>
>>> It almost felt like salt in a wound...
>>>
>>> I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
>>> don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to
>>> let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there
>>> are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the
>>> bad
>>> news...
>>>
>>> Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man
>>> behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's
>>> position that's exactly what seems to be happening.
>>>
>>> Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
>>> I think I might have a few things to say to him.
>>>
>>> I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my
>>> fears have come true..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on
>>> a Max site.
>>> >
>>> > I posted this just to add some additional info.
>>> >
>>> > -Original Message-
>>> > From: 
>>> > softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com
>>> > [mailto:softimage-bounces@**listproc.autodesk.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Massimo
>>> > Galluzzo
>>> > Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
>>> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com
>>> > Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>>> >
>>> > Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
>>> > Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
>>> >
>>> > Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a
>>> bugfix phase untill it dies so we know already.
>>> > This is pathetic.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -Messaggio originale-
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Stefan Kubicek]

I'm pretty sure they know they can't sit out something that never ends.



Since when did corporate thinking ever make sense?

Most are just looking at quarters & annual reports to the shareholders.
 Next year is a new game.

-Paul



On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:


Doesn't prevent defense only make sense in games that have a defined end?

 Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look at

what
Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?

For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent defense
is
what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  It's an
extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.

A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - you
don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and then
punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the
opposition
to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull out all
the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score as
many
points as possible as quickly as possible.

I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
defense.

Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
etc., realize the game isn't over.

-Paul





On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell **
wrote:

 Fair dues Greg...


Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc
and Frank report into him.

-Original Message-
From: 
softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com[mailto:
softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com 
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

:( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
better.?

It almost felt like salt in a wound...

I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to
let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there
are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the
bad
news...

Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man
behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's
position that's exactly what seems to be happening.

Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
I think I might have a few things to say to him.

I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my
fears have come true..












Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell 
wrote:

> Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on
a Max site.
>
> I posted this just to add some additional info.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 
softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com
> 
[mailto:softimage-bounces@**listproc.autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Massimo
> Galluzzo
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
>
> Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a
bugfix phase untill it dies so we know already.
> This is pathetic.
>
>
>
> -Messaggio originale-
> From: Graham Bell
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com
> Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
>
> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to
> the Max underground site
>
>
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got
> canceled last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs
> previous years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the
> roadmap of our products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by
> choice, but by revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates
> are not aligned with Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to
share about our products.
>
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to
> share the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
>
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph
> user event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview
> for Maya was ready for Siggraph, where

Re: Future of Naiad

[Stefan Kubicek]

..a bit like trying to get out of life...alive.



Since when did corporate thinking ever make sense?

Most are just looking at quarters & annual reports to the shareholders.
 Next year is a new game.

-Paul



On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:50 AM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:


Doesn't prevent defense only make sense in games that have a defined end?

 Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look at

what
Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?

For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent defense
is
what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  It's an
extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.

A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - you
don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and then
punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the
opposition
to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull out all
the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score as
many
points as possible as quickly as possible.

I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
defense.

Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
etc., realize the game isn't over.

-Paul





On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell **
wrote:

 Fair dues Greg...


Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc
and Frank report into him.

-Original Message-
From: 
softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com[mailto:
softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com 
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

:( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
better.?

It almost felt like salt in a wound...

I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to
let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there
are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the
bad
news...

Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man
behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's
position that's exactly what seems to be happening.

Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
I think I might have a few things to say to him.

I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my
fears have come true..












Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell 
wrote:

> Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on
a Max site.
>
> I posted this just to add some additional info.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 
softimage-bounces@listproc.**autodesk.com
> 
[mailto:softimage-bounces@**listproc.autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Massimo
> Galluzzo
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
>
> Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a
bugfix phase untill it dies so we know already.
> This is pathetic.
>
>
>
> -Messaggio originale-
> From: Graham Bell
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.**com
> Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
>
> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to
> the Max underground site
>
>
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got
> canceled last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs
> previous years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose the
> roadmap of our products anytime we want like the good old days. Not by
> choice, but by revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates
> are not aligned with Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to
share about our products.
>
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows us to
> share the roadmap that is aligned with ship dates.
>
> Then why did Maya show up with some cool stuff this year at Siggraph
> user event and not max? It just so happens that the technology preview
> for Maya was ready for Siggraph, whereas the 3ds max work that we ar

Re: Future of Naiad

[Greg Punchatz]

Amen

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Paul Griswold 
 wrote:

> 
> Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look at what 
> Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?
> 
> For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent defense is 
> what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the end. 
>  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  It's an 
> extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.
> 
> A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning 
> because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - you 
> don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and then 
> punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the opposition 
> to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more points. 
>  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull out all the stops 
> and try every innovative thing they can think of to score as many points as 
> possible as quickly as possible.
> 
> I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent 
> defense.
> 
> Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent defense. 
>  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc., etc., realize 
> the game isn't over.
> 
> -Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>> Fair dues Greg...
>> 
>> Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc and 
>> Frank report into him.
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
>> Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>> 
>> :( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel 
>> better.?
>> 
>> It almost felt like salt in a wound...
>> 
>> I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really 
>> don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to let 
>> it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger,  but there are 
>> certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the bad 
>> news...
>> 
>> Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man 
>> behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's 
>> position that's exactly what seems to be happening.
>> 
>> Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
>> I think I might have a few things to say to him.
>> 
>> I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my 
>> fears have come true..
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>> 
>> > Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on a 
>> > Max site.
>> >
>> > I posted this just to add some additional info.
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> > [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Massimo
>> > Galluzzo
>> > Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
>> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> > Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>> >
>> > Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
>> > Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
>> >
>> > Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a bugfix 
>> > phase untill it dies so we know already.
>> > This is pathetic.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -Messaggio originale-
>> > From: Graham Bell
>> > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
>> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> > Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
>> >
>> > Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
>> > Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to
>> > the Max underground site
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>> >
>> > Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got
>> > canceled last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this year vs
>> > previous years. A

Re: Future of Naiad

[David Gallagher]

Isn't it obvious Autodesk is spending their resources working on a next 
generation product, post Maya/Softimage/Max?


Didn't the Softimage people get shifted onto some faux project within 
Autodesk?


Of course they can't announce anything about that because it would be 
strategically stupid, and would undercut sales of existing products.



(Also agree with Adrian that you'll have to pry Softimage from my cold, 
dead fingers.)


Dave G

On 7/25/2013 9:50 AM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:

Doesn't prevent defense only make sense in games that have a defined end?

Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look 
at what

Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?

For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent 
defense is

what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  
It's an

extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.

A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - 
you
don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and 
then
punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the 
opposition

to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull 
out all
the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score 
as many

points as possible as quickly as possible.

I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
defense.

Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
etc., realize the game isn't over.

-Paul





On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell 
wrote:



Fair dues Greg...

Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and 
Marc

and Frank report into him.

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

:( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
better.?

It almost felt like salt in a wound...

I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be 
better to

let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger, but there
are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us 
the bad

news...

Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the 
man

behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's
position that's exactly what seems to be happening.

Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
I think I might have a few things to say to him.

I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all 
of my

fears have come true..












Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell  
wrote:


> Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post 
made on

a Max site.
>
> I posted this just to add some additional info.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Massimo
> Galluzzo
> Sent: 25 July 2013 10:56
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> Ok, so why no one speaks about Softimage?
> Maya, Max, Maya Max, Maya, Max, Maya Max.
>
> Just tell us the product will end the development cycle and enter a
bugfix phase untill it dies so we know already.
> This is pathetic.
>
>
>
> -Messaggio originale-
> From: Graham Bell
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 11:29 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: RE: Future of Naiad
>
> Overnight, Frank Delise (used to head up Max, but now heads our Games
> Solutions group, fyi, Marc Stevens heads up Film/TV), posted this to
> the Max underground site
>
>
> Hi all, I wanted to add some color to some of the concerns here.
>
> Yes, it was unfortunate that some of our max customer demos got
> canceled last minute. Siggraph was a bit different for us this 
year vs
> previous years. As a corp company, unfortunately we can’t disclose 
the
> roadmap of our products anytime we want like the good old days. 
Not by

> choice, but by revenue accounting laws. Since our product ship dates
> are not aligned with Siggraph, this causes us to have limited news to
share about our products.
>
> This is why we have our own event, the Unfold event. This allows 
us to

> share the roadmap that is align

RE: Future of Naiad

[Andi Farhall]

+1

...
http://www.hackneyeffects.com/https://vimeo.com/user4174293http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andi-farhall/b/496/b21

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lord_hackney/
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> Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 10:23:32 -0400
> From: davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> 
> 
> Isn't it obvious Autodesk is spending their resources working on a next 
> generation product, post Maya/Softimage/Max?
> 
> Didn't the Softimage people get shifted onto some faux project within 
> Autodesk?
> 
> Of course they can't announce anything about that because it would be 
> strategically stupid, and would undercut sales of existing products.
> 
> 
> (Also agree with Adrian that you'll have to pry Softimage from my cold, 
> dead fingers.)
> 
> Dave G
> 
> On 7/25/2013 9:50 AM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:
> > Doesn't prevent defense only make sense in games that have a defined end?
> >
> >> Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look 
> >> at what
> >> Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?
> >>
> >> For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent 
> >> defense is
> >> what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
> >> end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  
> >> It's an
> >> extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.
> >>
> >> A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
> >> because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - 
> >> you
> >> don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and 
> >> then
> >> punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the 
> >> opposition
> >> to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
> >> points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull 
> >> out all
> >> the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score 
> >> as many
> >> points as possible as quickly as possible.
> >>
> >> I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
> >> defense.
> >>
> >> Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
> >> defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
> >> etc., realize the game isn't over.
> >>
> >> -Paul
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Fair dues Greg...
> >>>
> >>> Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and 
> >>> Marc
> >>> and Frank report into him.
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> >>> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
> >>> Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
> >>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> >>> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> >>>
> >>> :( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
> >>> better.?
> >>>
> >>> It almost felt like salt in a wound...
> >>>
> >>> I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
> >>> don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be 
> >>> better to
> >>> let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger, but there
> >>> are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us 
> >>> the bad
> >>> news...
> >>>
> >>> Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the 
> >>> man
> >>> behind k

Re: Future of Naiad

[Greg Punchatz]

I am not sure how many softies are still there...other than Luc Eric

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 9:23 AM, David Gallagher  
wrote:

> 
> Isn't it obvious Autodesk is spending their resources working on a next 
> generation product, post Maya/Softimage/Max?
> 
> Didn't the Softimage people get shifted onto some faux project within 
> Autodesk?
> 
> Of course they can't announce anything about that because it would be 
> strategically stupid, and would undercut sales of existing products.
> 
> 
> (Also agree with Adrian that you'll have to pry Softimage from my cold, dead 
> fingers.)
> 
> Dave G
> 
> On 7/25/2013 9:50 AM, Stefan Kubicek wrote:
>> Doesn't prevent defense only make sense in games that have a defined end?
>> 
>>> Am I the only one who thinks of the "prevent defense" when you look at what
>>> Autodesk is doing with the entire Media & Entertainment line?
>>> 
>>> For you non-Americans / non-American football fans.  The prevent defense is
>>> what some coaches use when they are in the lead and the game is near the
>>> end.  The idea is, maintain the lead and don't make any mistakes.  It's an
>>> extremely conservative, boring way to try to win a game.
>>> 
>>> A lot of people would say the prevent defense prevents you from winning
>>> because you don't try to do anything on offense except not screw up - you
>>> don't try to score any more points, you just hold on to the ball and then
>>> punt it back to the opposing team - and on defense you allow the opposition
>>> to gain ground, hoping that if you give ground, they won't score more
>>> points.  Meanwhile the other team still wants to win, so they pull out all
>>> the stops and try every innovative thing they can think of to score as many
>>> points as possible as quickly as possible.
>>> 
>>> I've seen a lot of games that ended badly for the team using the prevent
>>> defense.
>>> 
>>> Autodesk has the lead in the market & they just want to play prevent
>>> defense.  Meanwhile Fabric/Creation, Houdini, The Foundry, NewTek, etc.,
>>> etc., realize the game isn't over.
>>> 
>>> -Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Graham Bell 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Fair dues Greg...
>>>> 
>>>> Fyi, the 'boss' is Chris Bradshaw. He took over from Marc Petit and Marc
>>>> and Frank report into him.
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
>>>> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Greg Punchatz
>>>> Sent: 25 July 2013 14:07
>>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>>>> 
>>>> :( bad choice ... Graham how was that supposed to make any of us feel
>>>> better.?
>>>> 
>>>> It almost felt like salt in a wound...
>>>> 
>>>> I really appreciate that you try to keep us informed, but if you really
>>>> don't have anything concrete or encouraging to say it might be better to
>>>> let it rest at this point.. I know you're only the messenger, but there
>>>> are certain people with a higher pay grade that should be giving us the bad
>>>> news...
>>>> 
>>>> Marc Stevens got his job because of us and softimage.  Now he is the man
>>>> behind killing soft and he has left us for dead... From an outsider's
>>>> position that's exactly what seems to be happening.
>>>> 
>>>> Who is Marc and the Max guy's boss?
>>>> I think I might have a few things to say to him.
>>>> 
>>>> I gave Autodesk more than a fair shake after the purchase. But all of my
>>>> fears have come true..
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Jul 25, 2013, at 5:17 AM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> > Yes I know, but the original context was around Max, and a post made on
>>>> a Max site.
>>>> >
>>>> > I posted this just to add some additional info.
>>>> >
>>>> > -Original Messag

Re: Future of Naiad

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 AM, adrian wyer
 wrote:
> lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is trousering them
> in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a procedural approach to vfx,
> is to hit the ground running with ICE, then they deserve to be buried by the
> competition

Autodesk is doing the right thing in that context. What they have done
with Naiad is add expertise about scalable, distributed, out-of-core
simulation that's also platform agnostic, which ICE is not. ICE is a
module built deep into XSI that does threaded operations on block of
data that reside in XSI's RAM and that's it.  At the user group, they
did a tech preview of something called Bifrost with its GUI running in
Maya, which is the standard linux studio platform, and that's a
totally a reasonable thing to do given also its extensive SDK.

Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just
a fluid solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework,
like Houdini.  It's not something you plug into ICE, it's an
alternative to it.

Re: Future of Naiad

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:
> I am not sure how many softies are still there...other than Luc Eric

there are dozens of Autodesk employees who used to be Softimage
employees.  You can't swing a dead cat here without hitting one.  Not
that we swing cats in this manner frequently.

Re: Future of Naiad

[Greg Punchatz]

Ice is more than a simulation environment ... It's deep ties to the program 
make it useful for so many more things... Biofrost sounds like its a stand 
alone app for simulation vs something that could be used for character 
animation or anything else you can imagine. 

Can biofrost work in a character set up?

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau  wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 AM, adrian wyer
>  wrote:
>> lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is trousering them
>> in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a procedural approach to vfx,
>> is to hit the ground running with ICE, then they deserve to be buried by the
>> competition
> 
> Autodesk is doing the right thing in that context. What they have done
> with Naiad is add expertise about scalable, distributed, out-of-core
> simulation that's also platform agnostic, which ICE is not. ICE is a
> module built deep into XSI that does threaded operations on block of
> data that reside in XSI's RAM and that's it.  At the user group, they
> did a tech preview of something called Bifrost with its GUI running in
> Maya, which is the standard linux studio platform, and that's a
> totally a reasonable thing to do given also its extensive SDK.
> 
> Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just
> a fluid solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework,
> like Houdini.  It's not something you plug into ICE, it's an
> alternative to it.
> 

Re: Future of Naiad

[David Barosin]

Just to add..  ICE is pretty amazing with non simulated trees too ;)


On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:

> Ice is more than a simulation environment ... It's deep ties to the
> program make it useful for so many more things... Biofrost sounds like its
> a stand alone app for simulation vs something that could be used for
> character animation or anything else you can imagine.
>
> Can biofrost work in a character set up?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 25, 2013, at 9:45 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 AM, adrian wyer
> >  wrote:
> >> lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is trousering
> them
> >> in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a procedural approach to
> vfx,
> >> is to hit the ground running with ICE, then they deserve to be buried
> by the
> >> competition
> >
> > Autodesk is doing the right thing in that context. What they have done
> > with Naiad is add expertise about scalable, distributed, out-of-core
> > simulation that's also platform agnostic, which ICE is not. ICE is a
> > module built deep into XSI that does threaded operations on block of
> > data that reside in XSI's RAM and that's it.  At the user group, they
> > did a tech preview of something called Bifrost with its GUI running in
> > Maya, which is the standard linux studio platform, and that's a
> > totally a reasonable thing to do given also its extensive SDK.
> >
> > Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just
> > a fluid solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework,
> > like Houdini.  It's not something you plug into ICE, it's an
> > alternative to it.
> >
>
>

RE: Future of Naiad

[Angus Davidson]

Thought Monday might have come around again, but I am going to have to agree 
with Luceric even if its from a slightly different angle.

a) Autodesk is in a position where it is being out maneuvered on pretty much 
every front. Thats pretty much obvious to everyone.

b) They cant release any long term plans because they will Osborne effect 
themselves out of the industry.

So what can they do ?  they can  start releasing functionality  that is to 
quote from below,

scalable, distributed, out-of-core
simulation that's also platform agnostic

Ie Code that they can do two things with.

1) Keep the legacy apps limping along while occasionally showing cool stuff to 
keep people excited. Lets be honest of all 3 of their apps Maya does make the 
most sense to be the first in line. Both Max and Soft image are far too 
specific in the way they are put together to make changes like this easy to 
bolt on. Maya is pretty much platform agnostic as it stands.

2) And this is what they need to be doing. They need to be redoing either all 3 
apps from the ground up to enable plug and play equally into all. Or they will 
be combining all 3 into one app which as much as I love Softimage makes better 
business and technical sense. This having to spread your resources over 3 apps 
that overlap to large extents is just not sustainable long term. particularly 
when products like blender are catching them up very quickly. Its only going to 
take a few people to realize that  for a fraction of their ADSK license cost 
they can pay (donation) the  blender devs to implement the exact functionality 
that they need.

So yes they are playing defense to try and hit the end whistle. They have just 
defined the end whistle as when they are ready to announce they next gen.

To me thats the only thing that makes sense with the current actions of their 
upper management.  Admittedly that is working on the basis that they are not 
being deliberately Stupid. which wouldn't be the first time for Corporate USA ;)

Kind regards

Angus








From: Luc-Eric Rousseau [luceri...@gmail.com]
Sent: 25 July 2013 04:45 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 AM, adrian wyer
 wrote:
> lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is trousering them
> in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a procedural approach to vfx,
> is to hit the ground running with ICE, then they deserve to be buried by the
> competition

Autodesk is doing the right thing in that context. What they have done
with Naiad is add expertise about scalable, distributed, out-of-core
simulation that's also platform agnostic, which ICE is not. ICE is a
module built deep into XSI that does threaded operations on block of
data that reside in XSI's RAM and that's it.  At the user group, they
did a tech preview of something called Bifrost with its GUI running in
Maya, which is the standard linux studio platform, and that's a
totally a reasonable thing to do given also its extensive SDK.

Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just
a fluid solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework,
like Houdini.  It's not something you plug into ICE, it's an
alternative to it.
=
 

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writing to the contrary. 

RE: Future of Naiad

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES]]

How does any plugin, module, etc, plugged into a host app, do what ICE can do, 
and not be platform agnostic? 

Seems everyone is wanting to create the next "ICE", but they are only getting 
halfway there, because they are trying to be platform agnostic. In the past 
several weeks I've been using ICE a lot! And very little of it is in the 
simulated tree. When you realize its power, in its simple ability to do away 
with a lot of mundane keyframing for overly repetitive tasks or event based 
conditions, ICE is so much bigger than just a particle simulator.

In the past two weeks I find myself frequently hitting limits with what ICE can 
do, but only because I'm wanting more and more of the SI core and/or other real 
time parameters and channels exposed, which sadly currently aren't. Can that 
that level of exposure realistically be done, in any software, while still 
being platform agnostic?


--
Joey Ponthieux
LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES)
Mymic Technical Services
NASA Langley Research Center
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not 
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:45 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 AM, adrian wyer  
wrote:
> lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is 
> trousering them in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a 
> procedural approach to vfx, is to hit the ground running with ICE, 
> then they deserve to be buried by the competition

Autodesk is doing the right thing in that context. What they have done with 
Naiad is add expertise about scalable, distributed, out-of-core simulation 
that's also platform agnostic, which ICE is not. ICE is a module built deep 
into XSI that does threaded operations on block of data that reside in XSI's 
RAM and that's it.  At the user group, they did a tech preview of something 
called Bifrost with its GUI running in Maya, which is the standard linux studio 
platform, and that's a totally a reasonable thing to do given also its 
extensive SDK.

Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just a fluid 
solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework, like Houdini.  It's 
not something you plug into ICE, it's an alternative to it.

Re: Future of Naiad

[olivier jeannel]

men !

Le 25/07/2013 17:35, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES] a écrit :

How does any plugin, module, etc, plugged into a host app, do what ICE can do, 
and not be platform agnostic?

Seems everyone is wanting to create the next "ICE", but they are only getting 
halfway there, because they are trying to be platform agnostic. In the past several weeks 
I've been using ICE a lot! And very little of it is in the simulated tree. When you 
realize its power, in its simple ability to do away with a lot of mundane keyframing for 
overly repetitive tasks or event based conditions, ICE is so much bigger than just a 
particle simulator.

In the past two weeks I find myself frequently hitting limits with what ICE can 
do, but only because I'm wanting more and more of the SI core and/or other real 
time parameters and channels exposed, which sadly currently aren't. Can that 
that level of exposure realistically be done, in any software, while still 
being platform agnostic?


--
Joey Ponthieux
LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES)
Mymic Technical Services
NASA Langley Research Center
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:45 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 6:33 AM, adrian wyer  
wrote:

lets face it, if the AD higher ups can't see that houdini is
trousering them in the vfx dept, and that their best hope for a
procedural approach to vfx, is to hit the ground running with ICE,
then they deserve to be buried by the competition

Autodesk is doing the right thing in that context. What they have done with 
Naiad is add expertise about scalable, distributed, out-of-core simulation 
that's also platform agnostic, which ICE is not. ICE is a module built deep 
into XSI that does threaded operations on block of data that reside in XSI's 
RAM and that's it.  At the user group, they did a tech preview of something 
called Bifrost with its GUI running in Maya, which is the standard linux studio 
platform, and that's a totally a reasonable thing to do given also its 
extensive SDK.

Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just a fluid 
solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework, like Houdini.  It's 
not something you plug into ICE, it's an alternative to it.

Re: Future of Naiad

[Chris Gardner]

would it be reasonable to say bifrost is the maya fx initiative that
we've heard about - aka "ICE-like environment inside maya"?


On 26 July 2013 00:45, Luc-Eric Rousseau  wrote:
> Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just
> a fluid solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework,
> like Houdini.  It's not something you plug into ICE, it's an
> alternative to it.

Re: Future of Naiad

[Ahmidou Lyazidi]

Or maybe they bought it for integration after the Maya FX faillure?

---
Ahmidou Lyazidi
Director | TD | CG artist
http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos
http://www.cappuccino-films.com


2013/7/26 Chris Gardner 

> would it be reasonable to say bifrost is the maya fx initiative that
> we've heard about - aka "ICE-like environment inside maya"?
>
>
> On 26 July 2013 00:45, Luc-Eric Rousseau  wrote:
> > Things might make more sense if you understand that Naiad was not just
> > a fluid solver, it was meant to be a complete simulation framework,
> > like Houdini.  It's not something you plug into ICE, it's an
> > alternative to it.
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

This thread is going places...

Re: Future of Naiad

[Eric Thivierge]

Well bifrost is a burning rainbow bridge used to open a passage between the
world and the realm of the gods. I'm betting that Autodesk is trying to end
the world and let the gods roam free smiting all those who dare question
Maya. Though this will also reduce their potential user base.
On Jul 25, 2013 4:51 PM, "Raffaele Fragapane" 
wrote:

> This thread is going places...
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Dark places


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Eric Thivierge wrote:

> Well bifrost is a burning rainbow bridge used to open a passage between
> the world and the realm of the gods. I'm betting that Autodesk is trying to
> end the world and let the gods roam free smiting all those who dare
> question Maya. Though this will also reduce their potential user base.
> On Jul 25, 2013 4:51 PM, "Raffaele Fragapane" 
> wrote:
>
>> This thread is going places...
>>
>


-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: Future of Naiad

[Eric Lampi]

"No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster
of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an
armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an
act of God, or possibly both."

This belongs on a plaque somewhere.

Eric

Freelance 3D and VFX animator

http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
 wrote:
> No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
> twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If one
> was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
> extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both.
>
> Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual "within
> the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all agree on, but no
> matter the amount of information that gets rolled out, "people" will always
> speculate and work things into re-inforcing whatever scenario they want to
> believe.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron  wrote:
>>
>> they, you, need a better PR department.
>>
>> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
>>
>> *written with my thumbs
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell  wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel free.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and
> let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: Future of Naiad

[Sebastien Sterling]

Bitfrost kinda sounds like a torrent client :P


On 26 July 2013 04:56, Eric Lampi  wrote:

> "No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster
> of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
> nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an
> armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an
> act of God, or possibly both."
>
> This belongs on a plaque somewhere.
>
> Eric
>
> Freelance 3D and VFX animator
>
> http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>  wrote:
> > No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
> > twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If
> one
> > was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
> > extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both.
> >
> > Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual
> "within
> > the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all agree on, but
> no
> > matter the amount of information that gets rolled out, "people" will
> always
> > speculate and work things into re-inforcing whatever scenario they want
> to
> > believe.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron  wrote:
> >>
> >> they, you, need a better PR department.
> >>
> >> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
> >>
> >> *written with my thumbs
> >>
> >> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel
> free.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
> and
> > let them flee like the dogs they are!
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Watch it, the Swedes are reading, and playing games with their rainbows
sends them into a berserk viking rage.


On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bitfrost kinda sounds like a torrent client :P
>
>
> On 26 July 2013 04:56, Eric Lampi  wrote:
>
>> "No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster
>> of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
>> nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an
>> armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an
>> act of God, or possibly both."
>>
>> This belongs on a plaque somewhere.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> Freelance 3D and VFX animator
>>
>> http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>>  wrote:
>> > No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
>> > twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If
>> one
>> > was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right
>> to
>> > extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both.
>> >
>> > Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual
>> "within
>> > the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all agree on, but
>> no
>> > matter the amount of information that gets rolled out, "people" will
>> always
>> > speculate and work things into re-inforcing whatever scenario they want
>> to
>> > believe.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> they, you, need a better PR department.
>> >>
>> >> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
>> >>
>> >> *written with my thumbs
>> >>
>> >> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel
>> free.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship
>> it and
>> > let them flee like the dogs they are!
>>
>
>


-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: Future of Naiad

[Thomas Volkmann]

Sitting in the middle of Sweden, I can confirm that...


> Raffaele Fragapane  hat am 26. Juli 2013 um 09:13
> geschrieben:
> 
>  Watch it, the Swedes are reading, and playing games with their rainbows sends
> them into a berserk viking rage.
> 
> 
>  On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Sebastien Sterling
> mailto:sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>> >Bitfrost kinda sounds like a torrent client :P
> > 
> > 
> >On 26 July 2013 04:56, Eric Lampi  >  > wrote:
> >  > > >  "No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent
> >  > > > a cluster
> > >  of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
> > >  nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an
> > >  armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an
> > >  act of God, or possibly both."
> > >  This belongs on a plaque somewhere.
> > > 
> > >  Eric
> > > 
> > >  Freelance 3D and VFX animator
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
> > >  < raffsxsil...@googlemail.com  >
> > > wrote:
> > >  > No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a
> > >  > cluster of
> > >  > twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
> > >  > nerd-rage. If one
> > >  > was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with
> > >  > right to
> > >  > extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly
> > >  > both.
> > >  >
> > >  > Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the
> > >  > usual "within
> > >  > the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all agree on,
> > >  > but no
> > >  > matter the amount of information that gets rolled out, "people"
> > >  > will always
> > >  > speculate and work things into re-inforcing whatever scenario they
> > >  > want to
> > >  > believe.
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron < car...@gmail.com
> > >  >  > wrote:
> > >  >>
> > >  >> they, you, need a better PR department.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
> > >  >>
> > >  >> *written with my thumbs
> > >  >>
> > >  >> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell <
> > >  >> graham.b...@autodesk.com  >
> > >  >> wrote:
> > >  >>
> > >  >>
> > >  >> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then
> > >  >> feel free.
> > >  >>
> > >  >>
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  > --
> > >  > Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it!
> > >  > Ship it and
> > >  > let them flee like the dogs they are!
> > >> >  > 
> 
> 
>  --
>  Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and
> let them flee like the dogs they are!
> 

Re: Future of Naiad

[peter_b]

Bring on them Vikings, beat them in the past* – will beat them again.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuven_(891) – This battle pretty much 
ended Viking invasions in the low lands – Leuven is my hometown – the town flag 
still refers to this battle, when the borders of the river were painted red 
with the blood of slain Vikings – which brings us vaguely back to the topic – 
fluid sims... )

Also – the Vikings as we know them were from Norway and Denmark – the Swedish 
went East to Russia and were more of the trading type.  

* disclaimer: I wasn’t born at the time.


From: Thomas Volkmann 
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 9:19 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com 
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

Sitting in the middle of Sweden, I can confirm that... 
  Raffaele Fragapane  hat am 26. Juli 2013 um 
09:13 geschrieben: 


  Watch it, the Swedes are reading, and playing games with their rainbows sends 
them into a berserk viking rage. 



  On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 5:08 PM, Sebastien Sterling 
 wrote: 

Bitfrost kinda sounds like a torrent client :P 



On 26 July 2013 04:56, Eric Lampi  wrote: 

  "No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster 
  of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into 
  nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an 
  armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an 
  act of God, or possibly both." 

  This belongs on a plaque somewhere. 

  Eric 

  Freelance 3D and VFX animator 

  http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work 



  On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane 
  < raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: 
  > No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster 
of 
  > twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If 
one 
  > was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right 
to 
  > extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly 
both. 
  > 
  > Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual 
"within 
  > the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all agree on, but 
no 
  > matter the amount of information that gets rolled out, "people" will 
always 
  > speculate and work things into re-inforcing whatever scenario they want 
to 
  > believe. 
  > 
  > 
  > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron < car...@gmail.com> 
wrote: 
  >> 
  >> they, you, need a better PR department. 
  >> 
  >> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly. 
  >> 
  >> *written with my thumbs 
  >> 
  >> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell < graham.b...@autodesk.com> 
wrote: 
  >> 
  >> 
  >> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel 
free. 
  >> 
  >> 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > -- 
  > Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship 
it and 
  > let them flee like the dogs they are! 



  -- 
  Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and 
let them flee like the dogs they are! 

  

RE: Future of Naiad

[Scott Lange]

LOL

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

"No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If one
was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both."

This belongs on a plaque somewhere.

Eric

Freelance 3D and VFX animator

http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
 wrote:
> No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster 
> of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into 
> nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an 
> armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act
of God, or possibly both.
>
> Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual 
> "within the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all 
> agree on, but no matter the amount of information that gets rolled 
> out, "people" will always speculate and work things into re-inforcing 
> whatever scenario they want to believe.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron  wrote:
>>
>> they, you, need a better PR department.
>>
>> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
>>
>> *written with my thumbs
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell 
wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel
free.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship 
> it and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: Future of Naiad

[Kris Rivel]

This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping
to see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty
bummed out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of
industry vs. the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they
know, or have available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.
 All three products have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies
and commercials.  Its funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken to so
many "converted" or multi-app artists that use maya, max, c4d or some combo
because they can't get enough Soft work.  BUT...the funny thing is that
each and everyone complains how frustrating it is when they know they could
do it in Soft so much easier.  Its hystericaland sad at the same time.
 Its the little engine that could and "did" but ultimately was pushed aside
because of bad marketing, buy-outs and corporate BS.

Expecting them to keep all three alive, well and generally the same though
is probably not reality and if they are planning on that...well...they're
going to lose the entire M&E industry because others are creeping up with
some very cool stuff.  I personally am leaning towards Houdini and other
niche apps.  The only thing keeping everyone paying that damn maintenance
fee to get upgraded is because its still the industry default and like
photoshop...unavoidable...but only for now.

If I was Autodesk, I would focus on something truly next gen.  Something
cloud and subscription based that combines the best of all 3 in a whole new
way..."one application to rule them all".

Kris


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Lange wrote:

> LOL
>
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> "No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
> twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If one
> was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
> extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both."
>
> This belongs on a plaque somewhere.
>
> Eric
>
> Freelance 3D and VFX animator
>
> http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>  wrote:
> > No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster
> > of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
> > nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an
> > armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act
> of God, or possibly both.
> >
> > Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual
> > "within the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all
> > agree on, but no matter the amount of information that gets rolled
> > out, "people" will always speculate and work things into re-inforcing
> > whatever scenario they want to believe.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron  wrote:
> >>
> >> they, you, need a better PR department.
> >>
> >> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
> >>
> >> *written with my thumbs
> >>
> >> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel
> free.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship
> > it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>
>
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Andy Moorer]

I would be totally open to a new application from AD if it takes some of
the best ideas of the 3 apps. Heck call it Maya thats fine. My problem is
however that AD does not seem to have a pattern of making choices based on
ensuring the best results for their customers. If their next-gen app suits
their needs and tosses what makes a tool like softimage brilliant they're
wasting their time developing.

Does AD actually have the culture and good sense to allow their no doubt
good and highly skilled  devs to really conceptualize and create a "best of
all three" next generation DCC? Without a bunch of suits getting involved
and trying to shape it towards their idea of what will make the most money?

I suspect AD is suffering from terminal "droids in suits" syndrome.



On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Kris Rivel  wrote:

> This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping
> to see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty
> bummed out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of
> industry vs. the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they
> know, or have available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.
>  All three products have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies
> and commercials.  Its funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken to so
> many "converted" or multi-app artists that use maya, max, c4d or some combo
> because they can't get enough Soft work.  BUT...the funny thing is that
> each and everyone complains how frustrating it is when they know they could
> do it in Soft so much easier.  Its hystericaland sad at the same time.
>  Its the little engine that could and "did" but ultimately was pushed aside
> because of bad marketing, buy-outs and corporate BS.
>
> Expecting them to keep all three alive, well and generally the same though
> is probably not reality and if they are planning on that...well...they're
> going to lose the entire M&E industry because others are creeping up with
> some very cool stuff.  I personally am leaning towards Houdini and other
> niche apps.  The only thing keeping everyone paying that damn maintenance
> fee to get upgraded is because its still the industry default and like
> photoshop...unavoidable...but only for now.
>
> If I was Autodesk, I would focus on something truly next gen.  Something
> cloud and subscription based that combines the best of all 3 in a whole new
> way..."one application to rule them all".
>
> Kris
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Lange 
> wrote:
>
>> LOL
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
>> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>>
>> "No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
>> twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If
>> one
>> was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
>> extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both."
>>
>> This belongs on a plaque somewhere.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> Freelance 3D and VFX animator
>>
>> http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>>  wrote:
>> > No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster
>> > of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
>> > nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an
>> > armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act
>> of God, or possibly both.
>> >
>> > Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual
>> > "within the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all
>> > agree on, but no matter the amount of information that gets rolled
>> > out, "people" will always speculate and work things into re-inforcing
>> > whatever scenario they want to believe.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> they, you, need a better PR department.
>> >>
>> >> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
>> >>
>> >> *written with my thumbs
>> >>
>> >> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel
>> free.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship
>> > it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>>
>>
>>
>

RE: Future of Naiad

[Matt Lind]

The interesting part was the "small annoying things" comment made by the 3DSMax 
product manager.  Isn't that what we heard out of the Softimage camp about this 
time last year?  Basically the decisions were made long ago, we're just now 
seeing it front and center instead of having to use the crystal ball.

The choice to go with Maya over Softimage is probably related to the use of 
COM/OLE, ImageWare, and Mainsoftand perhaps a few other things which aren't 
as well known.  It's not always about feature 'x' or plugin 'y' as you cite 
with user comments, but rather about which platform has the more solid 
foundation despite any number of holes in the walls or ceiling.  Softimage is 
very functional out of the box for end users, but there are some isolated choke 
points for developers to do serious work with it.  Some of which are related to 
the aforementioned.

As for what lies ahead, I think former Softimage|3D users have an idea what to 
expect.


Matt




From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Kris Rivel
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:45 PM
To: Softimage List
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping to 
see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty bummed 
out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of industry vs. 
the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they know, or have 
available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.  All three products 
have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies and commercials.  Its 
funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken to so many "converted" or 
multi-app artists that use maya, max, c4d or some combo because they can't get 
enough Soft work.  BUT...the funny thing is that each and everyone complains 
how frustrating it is when they know they could do it in Soft so much easier.  
Its hystericaland sad at the same time.  Its the little engine that could 
and "did" but ultimately was pushed aside because of bad marketing, buy-outs 
and corporate BS.

Expecting them to keep all three alive, well and generally the same though is 
probably not reality and if they are planning on that...well...they're going to 
lose the entire M&E industry because others are creeping up with some very cool 
stuff.  I personally am leaning towards Houdini and other niche apps.  The only 
thing keeping everyone paying that damn maintenance fee to get upgraded is 
because its still the industry default and like photoshop...unavoidable...but 
only for now.

If I was Autodesk, I would focus on something truly next gen.  Something cloud 
and subscription based that combines the best of all 3 in a whole new 
way..."one application to rule them all".

Kris

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Lange 
mailto:sc...@turbulenceffects.com>> wrote:
LOL

-Original Message-
From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
 On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
"No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If one
was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both."

This belongs on a plaque somewhere.

Eric

Freelance 3D and VFX animator

http://vimeopro.com/user7979713/3d-work


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
mailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
> No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster
> of twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into
> nerd-rage. If one was ever invented it would have to be either an
> armed force with right to extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act
of God, or possibly both.
>
> Mind, AD is often cryptic and confused in comm beyond what the usual
> "within the quarter" corporate rule would excuse, that we can all
> agree on, but no matter the amount of information that gets rolled
> out, "people" will always speculate and work things into re-inforcing
> whatever scenario they want to believe.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Steven Caron 
> mailto:car...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> they, you, need a better PR department.
>>
>> it is simple, don't give us reason to speculate so wildly.
>>
>> *written with my thumbs
>>
>> On Jul 24, 2013, at 5:00 PM, Graham Bell 
>> mailto:graham.b...@autodesk.com>>
wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm saying nothing more, though if anyone wants to pvt me, then feel
free.
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship
> it and let them flee like the dogs they are!

RE: Future of Naiad

[Matt Lind]

I would question whether a one-size fits all application is relevant anymore.

The current 3 applications were designed and developed in the 1990s, but the 
industry has evolved quite a bit since then.  Even Softimage's 'Sumatra' 
propaganda advertised it as a product for 'the next ten years'.  We're well 
beyond that now.  Mobile, 3d printing, interactive spaces, etc.. have all 
emerged and need 3d content.  While Autodesk's big 3 can be used, they aren't 
necessarily tailored for those markets.  The big 3 are strongly rooted in 
film/video and some games.  What's needed to today is a collective rethink.

I think what's needed today is a host application to act as a point of assembly 
and layout.  It performs the basic tasks of scene construction and metadata 
packaging, but from that point on acts as a hub for other applications whether 
they be commercial or privately developed.  While smaller studios and one-man 
efforts would probably prefer an integrated solution like they are available 
today, as data scales up it will be difficult to continue that paradigm and 
still be competitive over the long term.

Is Autodesk up to the task?  It'll probably be years before we know the answer.


Matt





From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Andy Moorer
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:42 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

I would be totally open to a new application from AD if it takes some of the 
best ideas of the 3 apps. Heck call it Maya thats fine. My problem is however 
that AD does not seem to have a pattern of making choices based on ensuring the 
best results for their customers. If their next-gen app suits their needs and 
tosses what makes a tool like softimage brilliant they're wasting their time 
developing.

Does AD actually have the culture and good sense to allow their no doubt good 
and highly skilled  devs to really conceptualize and create a "best of all 
three" next generation DCC? Without a bunch of suits getting involved and 
trying to shape it towards their idea of what will make the most money?

I suspect AD is suffering from terminal "droids in suits" syndrome.


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Kris Rivel 
mailto:krisri...@gmail.com>> wrote:
This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping to 
see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty bummed 
out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of industry vs. 
the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they know, or have 
available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.  All three products 
have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies and commercials.  Its 
funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken to so many "converted" or 
multi-app artists that use maya, max, c4d or some combo because they can't get 
enough Soft work.  BUT...the funny thing is that each and everyone complains 
how frustrating it is when they know they could do it in Soft so much easier.  
Its hystericaland sad at the same time.  Its the little engine that could 
and "did" but ultimately was pushed aside because of bad marketing, buy-outs 
and corporate BS.

Expecting them to keep all three alive, well and generally the same though is 
probably not reality and if they are planning on that...well...they're going to 
lose the entire M&E industry because others are creeping up with some very cool 
stuff.  I personally am leaning towards Houdini and other niche apps.  The only 
thing keeping everyone paying that damn maintenance fee to get upgraded is 
because its still the industry default and like photoshop...unavoidable...but 
only for now.

If I was Autodesk, I would focus on something truly next gen.  Something cloud 
and subscription based that combines the best of all 3 in a whole new 
way..."one application to rule them all".

Kris

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Lange 
mailto:sc...@turbulenceffects.com>> wrote:
LOL

-Original Message-
From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
 On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
"No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
twats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If one
was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right to
extreme prejudice in applying force, or an act of God, or possibly both."

This belongs on a plaque somewhere.

Eric

Freelance 3D and VFX animator

Re: Future of Naiad

[Sebastian Kowalski]

do I hear fabric engine?



Am 31.07.2013 um 00:36 schrieb Matt Lind :

> I would question whether a one-size fits all application is relevant anymore. 
>  
> The current 3 applications were designed and developed in the 1990s, but the 
> industry has evolved quite a bit since then.  Even Softimage’s ‘Sumatra’ 
> propaganda advertised it as a product for ‘the next ten years’.  We’re well 
> beyond that now.  Mobile, 3d printing, interactive spaces, etc.. have all 
> emerged and need 3d content.  While Autodesk’s big 3 can be used, they aren’t 
> necessarily tailored for those markets.  The big 3 are strongly rooted in 
> film/video and some games.  What’s needed to today is a collective rethink.
>  
> I think what’s needed today is a host application to act as a point of 
> assembly and layout.  It performs the basic tasks of scene construction and 
> metadata packaging, but from that point on acts as a hub for other 
> applications whether they be commercial or privately developed.  While 
> smaller studios and one-man efforts would probably prefer an integrated 
> solution like they are available today, as data scales up it will be 
> difficult to continue that paradigm and still be competitive over the long 
> term.
>  
> Is Autodesk up to the task?  It’ll probably be years before we know the 
> answer.
>  
>  
> Matt
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Andy Moorer
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:42 PM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>  
> I would be totally open to a new application from AD if it takes some of the 
> best ideas of the 3 apps. Heck call it Maya thats fine. My problem is however 
> that AD does not seem to have a pattern of making choices based on ensuring 
> the best results for their customers. If their next-gen app suits their needs 
> and tosses what makes a tool like softimage brilliant they're wasting their 
> time developing. 
>  
> Does AD actually have the culture and good sense to allow their no doubt good 
> and highly skilled  devs to really conceptualize and create a "best of all 
> three" next generation DCC? Without a bunch of suits getting involved and 
> trying to shape it towards their idea of what will make the most money?
>  
> I suspect AD is suffering from terminal "droids in suits" syndrome.
>  
>  
> 
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Kris Rivel  wrote:
> This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping to 
> see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty 
> bummed out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of 
> industry vs. the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they 
> know, or have available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.  All 
> three products have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies and 
> commercials.  Its funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken to so many 
> "converted" or multi-app artists that use maya, max, c4d or some combo 
> because they can't get enough Soft work.  BUT...the funny thing is that each 
> and everyone complains how frustrating it is when they know they could do it 
> in Soft so much easier.  Its hystericaland sad at the same time.  Its the 
> little engine that could and "did" but ultimately was pushed aside because of 
> bad marketing, buy-outs and corporate BS.  
>  
> Expecting them to keep all three alive, well and generally the same though is 
> probably not reality and if they are planning on that...well...they're going 
> to lose the entire M&E industry because others are creeping up with some very 
> cool stuff.  I personally am leaning towards Houdini and other niche apps.  
> The only thing keeping everyone paying that damn maintenance fee to get 
> upgraded is because its still the industry default and like 
> photoshop...unavoidable...but only for now.
>  
> If I was Autodesk, I would focus on something truly next gen.  Something 
> cloud and subscription based that combines the best of all 3 in a whole new 
> way..."one application to rule them all".  
>  
> Kris
>  
> 
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Lange  
> wrote:
> LOL
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> 
> "No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster of
> twats from specul

Re: Future of Naiad

[Ciaran Moloney]

Likewise, anybody used Katana?


On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Sebastian Kowalski  wrote:

> do I hear fabric engine?
>
>
>
> Am 31.07.2013 um 00:36 schrieb Matt Lind :
>
> I would question whether a one-size fits all application is relevant
> anymore. 
>
> The current 3 applications were designed and developed in the 1990s, but
> the industry has evolved quite a bit since then.  Even Softimage’s
> ‘Sumatra’ propaganda advertised it as a product for ‘the next ten years’.
> We’re well beyond that now.  Mobile, 3d printing, interactive spaces, etc..
> have all emerged and need 3d content.  While Autodesk’s big 3 can be used,
> they aren’t necessarily tailored for those markets.  The big 3 are strongly
> rooted in film/video and some games.  What’s needed to today is a
> collective rethink.
>
> I think what’s needed today is a host application to act as a point of
> assembly and layout.  It performs the basic tasks of scene construction and
> metadata packaging, but from that point on acts as a hub for other
> applications whether they be commercial or privately developed.  While
> smaller studios and one-man efforts would probably prefer an integrated
> solution like they are available today, as data scales up it will be
> difficult to continue that paradigm and still be competitive over the long
> term.
>
> Is Autodesk up to the task?  It’ll probably be years before we know the
> answer.
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-
> boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Andy Moorer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:42 PM
> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> *Subject:* Re: Future of Naiad
> ** **
> I would be totally open to a new application from AD if it takes some of
> the best ideas of the 3 apps. Heck call it Maya thats fine. My problem is
> however that AD does not seem to have a pattern of making choices based on
> ensuring the best results for their customers. If their next-gen app suits
> their needs and tosses what makes a tool like softimage brilliant they're
> wasting their time developing. 
> ** **
> Does AD actually have the culture and good sense to allow their no doubt
> good and highly skilled  devs to really conceptualize and create a "best of
> all three" next generation DCC? Without a bunch of suits getting involved
> and trying to shape it towards their idea of what will make the most money?
> 
> ** **
> I suspect AD is suffering from terminal "droids in suits" syndrome.
> ** **
>
> ** **
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Kris Rivel  wrote:*
> ***
> This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping
> to see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty
> bummed out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of
> industry vs. the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they
> know, or have available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.
>  All three products have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies
> and commercials.  Its funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken to so
> many "converted" or multi-app artists that use maya, max, c4d or some combo
> because they can't get enough Soft work.  BUT...the funny thing is that
> each and everyone complains how frustrating it is when they know they could
> do it in Soft so much easier.  Its hystericaland sad at the same time.
>  Its the little engine that could and "did" but ultimately was pushed aside
> because of bad marketing, buy-outs and corporate BS.  
> ** **
> Expecting them to keep all three alive, well and generally the same though
> is probably not reality and if they are planning on that...well...they're
> going to lose the entire M&E industry because others are creeping up with
> some very cool stuff.  I personally am leaning towards Houdini and other
> niche apps.  The only thing keeping everyone paying that damn maintenance
> fee to get upgraded is because its still the industry default and like
> photoshop...unavoidable...but only for now.
> ** **
> If I was Autodesk, I would focus on something truly next gen.  Something
> cloud and subscription based that combines the best of all 3 in a whole new
> way..."one application to rule them all".  ****
>
> Kris
>
> ** **
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Lange 
> wrote:
> LOL
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric Lampi
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Plenty people couldn't live without it these days, and it's just about to
see an even bigger shift.

What Matt outlines is foresightful enough, and already happening in some
tiers. It sure is going that way in the high end of film VFX and feature
animation.

You might be surpised by how much like this a pipe looks, or is about to:
ZBrush -> Topogun/3DC -> Mari/Mudbox -> Maya/Soft (for rigs/anim) -> point
caches -> entirely custom built or 3rd party provided surfacing (Maya
barely plays as a node editor and OGL viewer) -> Houdini -> Katana -> Nuke

Layout/camera work, because of their scene centric nature, and
rigging/animation, for too many reasons to list, are the hardest to take
out of Maya/Soft, but instead of a long, undisturbed streak of operations
like they used to be, they are more and more frequently peppered by custom
bits that do more and more stretches of work every production, and Fabric
and some other options look to erode more of it that in the high end is
often done by propietary equivalents or near equivalents.

Some of that, what is easily understandable, somewhat standardized, and
easily applicable has already trickled down to those with less staff, time
and money. More will.



On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Ciaran Moloney wrote:

> Likewise, anybody used Katana?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Sebastian Kowalski wrote:
>
>> do I hear fabric engine?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 31.07.2013 um 00:36 schrieb Matt Lind :
>>
>> I would question whether a one-size fits all application is relevant
>> anymore. 
>>
>> The current 3 applications were designed and developed in the 1990s, but
>> the industry has evolved quite a bit since then.  Even Softimage’s
>> ‘Sumatra’ propaganda advertised it as a product for ‘the next ten years’.
>> We’re well beyond that now.  Mobile, 3d printing, interactive spaces, etc..
>> have all emerged and need 3d content.  While Autodesk’s big 3 can be used,
>> they aren’t necessarily tailored for those markets.  The big 3 are strongly
>> rooted in film/video and some games.  What’s needed to today is a
>> collective rethink.
>>
>> I think what’s needed today is a host application to act as a point of
>> assembly and layout.  It performs the basic tasks of scene construction and
>> metadata packaging, but from that point on acts as a hub for other
>> applications whether they be commercial or privately developed.  While
>> smaller studios and one-man efforts would probably prefer an integrated
>> solution like they are available today, as data scales up it will be
>> difficult to continue that paradigm and still be competitive over the long
>> term.
>>
>> Is Autodesk up to the task?  It’ll probably be years before we know the
>> answer.
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-
>> boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Andy Moorer
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:42 PM
>> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> *Subject:* Re: Future of Naiad
>> ** **
>> I would be totally open to a new application from AD if it takes some of
>> the best ideas of the 3 apps. Heck call it Maya thats fine. My problem is
>> however that AD does not seem to have a pattern of making choices based on
>> ensuring the best results for their customers. If their next-gen app suits
>> their needs and tosses what makes a tool like softimage brilliant they're
>> wasting their time developing. 
>> ** **
>> Does AD actually have the culture and good sense to allow their no doubt
>> good and highly skilled  devs to really conceptualize and create a "best of
>> all three" next generation DCC? Without a bunch of suits getting involved
>> and trying to shape it towards their idea of what will make the most money?
>> 
>> ** **
>> I suspect AD is suffering from terminal "droids in suits" syndrome.
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Kris Rivel  wrote:
>> 
>> This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping
>> to see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty
>> bummed out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of
>> industry vs. the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they
>> know, or have available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.
>>  All three products have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies
>> and commercials.  Its funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken t

Re: Future of Naiad

[Stefan Kubicek]

Or Clarisse?They currently have a special summer sale atm ($1500.- instead of $7400.- for 1 license and 5 render nodes, incl. support).Likewise, anybody used Katana?On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Sebastian Kowalski <l...@sekow.com> wrote:

do I hear fabric engine?
Am 31.07.2013 um 00:36 schrieb Matt Lind <ml...@carbinestudios.com>:

I would question whether a one-size fits all application is relevant anymore. 

 

The current 3 applications were designed and developed in the 1990s, but the industry has evolved quite a bit since then.  Even Softimage’s ‘Sumatra’ propaganda advertised it as a product for ‘the next ten years’.  We’re well beyond that now.  Mobile, 3d printing, interactive spaces, etc.. have all emerged and need 3d content.  While Autodesk’s big 3 can be used, they aren’t necessarily tailored for those markets.  The big 3 are strongly rooted in film/video and some games.  What’s needed to today is a collective rethink.

 

I think what’s needed today is a host application to act as a point of assembly and layout.  It performs the basic tasks of scene construction and metadata packaging, but from that point on acts as a hub for other applications whether they be commercial or privately developed.  While smaller studios and one-man efforts would probably prefer an integrated solution like they are available today, as data scales up it will be difficult to continue that paradigm and still be competitive over the long term.

 

Is Autodesk up to the task?  It’ll probably be years before we know the answer.

  

Matt

  

 

  

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Andy Moorer

Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:42 PMTo: softimage@listproc.autodesk.comSubject: Re: Future of Naiad

 I would be totally open to a new application from AD if it takes some of the best ideas of the 3 apps. Heck call it Maya thats fine. My problem is however that AD does not seem to have a pattern of making choices based on ensuring the best results for their customers. If their next-gen app suits their needs and tosses what makes a tool like softimage brilliant they're wasting their time developing. 

 

Does AD actually have the culture and good sense to allow their no doubt good and highly skilled  devs to really conceptualize and create a "best of all three" next generation DCC? Without a bunch of suits getting involved and trying to shape it towards their idea of what will make the most money?

 

I suspect AD is suffering from terminal "droids in suits" syndrome. 

 

On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Kris Rivel <krisri...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is a depressing thread!  After going through Graham's email...hoping to see one mention of Soft...and finding nothing...I'm left feeling pretty bummed out.  This idea that Autodesk can market one app to one type of industry vs. the other is ridiculous.  Studios and artists pick what they know, or have available, not what some corporation "says" fits the bill.  All three products have proven themselves just fine doing games, movies and commercials.  Its funny though.  The past few weeks I've spoken to so many "converted" or multi-app artists that use maya, max, c4d or some combo because they can't get enough Soft work.  BUT...the funny thing is that each and everyone complains how frustrating it is when they know they could do it in Soft so much easier.  Its hystericaland sad at the same time.  Its the little engine that could and "did" but ultimately was pushed aside because of bad marketing, buy-outs and corporate BS.  

 

Expecting them to keep all three alive, well and generally the same though is probably not reality and if they are planning on that...well...they're going to lose the entire M&E industry because others are creeping up with some very cool stuff.  I personally am leaning towards Houdini and other niche apps.  The only thing keeping everyone paying that damn maintenance fee to get upgraded is because its still the industry default and like photoshop...unavoidable...but only for now.

 

If I was Autodesk, I would focus on something truly next gen.  Something cloud and subscription based that combines the best of all 3 in a whole new way..."one application to rule them all".  

 

Kris 

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Scott Lange <sc...@turbulenceffects.com> wrote:

LOL-Original Message-From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com

[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Eric LampiSent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:56 PM

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.comSubject: Re: Future of Naiad

"No PR department has, in history, ever been able to prevent a cluster oftwats from speculating wildly and working themselves into nerd-rage. If one

was ever invented it would have to be either an armed force with right toextreme prejudice in app

Re: Future of Naiad

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost
is called " Behind the curtain of RD"
http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013

RE: Future of Naiad

[Nick Angus]

Interesting, thanks Luc-Eric,  it certainly looks very tied in to Maya at this 
stage, although I am sure it is mostly a front end.  Much in the way Pixomondo 
integrated Naiad into Max, although deeper by the looks of all the adaptive 
stuff.  I imagine this level of integration would be a bit trickier in Soft due 
to the older school nature of the IO.

I must admit at this point I am pretty tempted to start looking into Houdini, 
even just for fluids it could be good value, particularly with Arnold 
integration.  I don't want to bash on Maya any more than necessary, but if I am 
going to pick a partner for Soft to extend it into areas of simulation that it 
struggles in I don't think I will we going down the Maya path...

N

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau
Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013 5:34 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost is 
called " Behind the curtain of RD"
http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013<https://connect.autodesk.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=bK-GRTdfLUiXi2n0RgTMcYqHgi28bNAIpkHDsL63ZwuMDdYAFdDXoVTVWcZLNdA1fgkawqvC1gw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2farea.autodesk.com%2fAnaheim2013>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Raffaele Fragapane]

It might be worth figuring out what you want out of your choices.

If you want a mature solution with well integrated production tested
solvers, a rendering engine with inifnite licenses that is very highly
tailored to scale massively with those simulations, you won't beat Houdini,
no matter what rendering engine you tack on in another package.

Bifrost is an interesting departure from shoving things into the host and
obscuring them for Autodesk, and it relies on relatively fresh or refreshed
(but not untested or immature) libraries/frameworks, and it seems to be
wanting to attempt a certain degree of generically approaching some
problems, plus it's likely, when it will be out, to have some very good
solvers.

You are betting on months to a year or more away though (assuming it will
even be available and viable in 2015 and patched in an eventual 2015.5). If
you can wait for that long, wait, but if you want things sooner than that
Houdini already has some great solvers, now has solid OpenVDB integration,
and it's impossible to beat Mantra's scaling economically, and hard to beat
it in other regards too.

You only need one license of Houdini to begin with, and whether Naiad will
blow it out of the water or not, it's unlikely to be a waste of money.


On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Nick Angus  wrote:

>  Interesting, thanks Luc-Eric,  it certainly looks very tied in to Maya
> at this stage, although I am sure it is mostly a front end.  Much in the
> way Pixomondo integrated Naiad into Max, although deeper by the looks of
> all the adaptive stuff.  I imagine this level of integration would be a bit
> trickier in Soft due to the older school nature of the IO.
>
> ** **
>
> I must admit at this point I am pretty tempted to start looking into
> Houdini, even just for fluids it could be good value, particularly with
> Arnold integration.  I don’t want to bash on Maya any more than necessary,
> but if I am going to pick a partner for Soft to extend it into areas of
> simulation that it struggles in I don’t think I will we going down the Maya
> path…
>
> ** **
>
> N
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Luc-Eric Rousseau
> *Sent:* Thursday, 15 August 2013 5:34 AM
>
> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> *Subject:* Re: Future of Naiad
>
> ** **
>
> The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost
> is called " Behind the curtain of RD"
>
> http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013<https://connect.autodesk.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=bK-GRTdfLUiXi2n0RgTMcYqHgi28bNAIpkHDsL63ZwuMDdYAFdDXoVTVWcZLNdA1fgkawqvC1gw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2farea.autodesk.com%2fAnaheim2013>
> 
>



-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

RE: Future of Naiad

[Nick Angus]

Very well put as always Raf!

I just get the feeling for the simulation/assembly/final integration scenario I 
am sitting around waiting for things while many people have simply moved on...

A good example is probably found in some of the top Naiad users, who simply 
walked away and within weeks were posting test videos of equal quality from 
Houdini.  They are maybe not the best example of the broader population as they 
are already very technical minded individuals who are used to working in the 
'undocumented zone'.

I don't harbour any particular resentment to Autodesk over this matter, as 
Naiad was not a very well supported product and I think Marcus found himself 
swamped with admin and other tasks which probably kept him away from his core 
strengths.

I guess I do fear somewhat for Softs future as more of this tech gets pushed 
toward Maya, and even with Fabric Engine making the whole thing portable to my 
mind starts to pull the rug from under Soft.  Combine that with ageing IO and 
it really is not a pretty picture past the next year or so.

The fact that Soft makes no appearance in any of the R&D videos probably 
shouldn't be read into to much, but you would have to have your head buried 
pretty deeply to not let your mind wander onto the subject a little...
I don't intend to push this thread into another Autodesk bashing exercise so 
please anyone refrain from going down that well trodden path.

I guess I am trying to get my own roadmap sorted for the future as many of us 
do from time to time, it seems it is an amazing time for a divergence and 
abundance of technology but also somewhat confusing as to where some older 
technology fits (or more precisely will fit) into the grander scheme.

Sorry for the long winded post, very much thinking out loud at this point  ; )

N

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Raffaele Fragapane 
[raffsxsil...@googlemail.com]
Sent: 15 August 2013 10:40
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

It might be worth figuring out what you want out of your choices.

If you want a mature solution with well integrated production tested solvers, a 
rendering engine with inifnite licenses that is very highly tailored to scale 
massively with those simulations, you won't beat Houdini, no matter what 
rendering engine you tack on in another package.

Bifrost is an interesting departure from shoving things into the host and 
obscuring them for Autodesk, and it relies on relatively fresh or refreshed 
(but not untested or immature) libraries/frameworks, and it seems to be wanting 
to attempt a certain degree of generically approaching some problems, plus it's 
likely, when it will be out, to have some very good solvers.

You are betting on months to a year or more away though (assuming it will even 
be available and viable in 2015 and patched in an eventual 2015.5). If you can 
wait for that long, wait, but if you want things sooner than that Houdini 
already has some great solvers, now has solid OpenVDB integration, and it's 
impossible to beat Mantra's scaling economically, and hard to beat it in other 
regards too.

You only need one license of Houdini to begin with, and whether Naiad will blow 
it out of the water or not, it's unlikely to be a waste of money.


On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Nick Angus 
mailto:n...@altvfx.com>> wrote:
Interesting, thanks Luc-Eric,  it certainly looks very tied in to Maya at this 
stage, although I am sure it is mostly a front end.  Much in the way Pixomondo 
integrated Naiad into Max, although deeper by the looks of all the adaptive 
stuff.  I imagine this level of integration would be a bit trickier in Soft due 
to the older school nature of the IO.

I must admit at this point I am pretty tempted to start looking into Houdini, 
even just for fluids it could be good value, particularly with Arnold 
integration.  I don’t want to bash on Maya any more than necessary, but if I am 
going to pick a partner for Soft to extend it into areas of simulation that it 
struggles in I don’t think I will we going down the Maya path…

N

From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
 On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau
Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013 5:34 AM

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad

The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost is 
called " Behind the curtain of RD"
http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013<https://connect.autodesk.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=bK-GRTdfLUiXi2n0RgTMcYqHgi28bNAIpkHDsL63ZwuMDdYAFdDXoVTVWcZLNdA1fgkawqvC1gw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2farea.autodesk.com%2fAnaheim2013>



--
Our users wi

Re: Future of Naiad

[Jordi Bares]

It's an strategic moment right now and I can only speculate but one thing is 
clear, the companies that own their own destiny and the product is their core 
business are safe bet. The rest... Lets see in 2 years.

Jb

> I guess I am trying to get my own roadmap sorted for the future as many of us 
> do from time to time, it seems it is an amazing time for a divergence and 
> abundance of technology but also somewhat confusing as to where some older 
> technology fits (or more precisely will fit) into the grander scheme.
> 
> Sorry for the long winded post, very much thinking out loud at this point  ; )
> 
> N
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] on behalf of Raffaele Fragapane 
> [raffsxsil...@googlemail.com]
> Sent: 15 August 2013 10:40
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> 
> It might be worth figuring out what you want out of your choices.
> 
> If you want a mature solution with well integrated production tested solvers, 
> a rendering engine with inifnite licenses that is very highly tailored to 
> scale massively with those simulations, you won't beat Houdini, no matter 
> what rendering engine you tack on in another package.
> 
> Bifrost is an interesting departure from shoving things into the host and 
> obscuring them for Autodesk, and it relies on relatively fresh or refreshed 
> (but not untested or immature) libraries/frameworks, and it seems to be 
> wanting to attempt a certain degree of generically approaching some problems, 
> plus it's likely, when it will be out, to have some very good solvers.
> 
> You are betting on months to a year or more away though (assuming it will 
> even be available and viable in 2015 and patched in an eventual 2015.5). If 
> you can wait for that long, wait, but if you want things sooner than that 
> Houdini already has some great solvers, now has solid OpenVDB integration, 
> and it's impossible to beat Mantra's scaling economically, and hard to beat 
> it in other regards too.
> 
> You only need one license of Houdini to begin with, and whether Naiad will 
> blow it out of the water or not, it's unlikely to be a waste of money.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Nick Angus  wrote:
>> Interesting, thanks Luc-Eric,  it certainly looks very tied in to Maya at 
>> this stage, although I am sure it is mostly a front end.  Much in the way 
>> Pixomondo integrated Naiad into Max, although deeper by the looks of all the 
>> adaptive stuff.  I imagine this level of integration would be a bit trickier 
>> in Soft due to the older school nature of the IO.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I must admit at this point I am pretty tempted to start looking into 
>> Houdini, even just for fluids it could be good value, particularly with 
>> Arnold integration.  I don’t want to bash on Maya any more than necessary, 
>> but if I am going to pick a partner for Soft to extend it into areas of 
>> simulation that it struggles in I don’t think I will we going down the Maya 
>> path…
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> N
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric 
>> Rousseau
>> Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013 5:34 AM
>> 
>> 
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>>  
>> 
>> The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost is 
>> called " Behind the curtain of RD"
>> 
>> http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and 
> let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: Future of Naiad

[Morten Bartholdy]

Thanks for posting Luc!

Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging in
to The Area..??


Morten





Den 14. august 2013 kl. 21:33 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau
:

> The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost
> is called "  Behind the curtain of RD "
> http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
> 

Re: Future of Naiad

[Thomas Volkmann]

> 
>  Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging in
> to The Area..??
> 
> 
> 

Haha, that is exactly what kept me away from watching the video. Too lazy to
even try to remember my login, and I figured reading the comments in this thread
would be enough :)

RE: Future of Naiad

[Graham Bell]

You don’t have to login to watch these videos. Most (if not all) of the movies 
from events can be viewed without logging in.
Getting to stuff, like tutorials and downloads, then logging in is required.

G

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Volkmann
Sent: 15 August 2013 08:43
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad




Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging in to 
The Area..??





Haha, that is exactly what kept me away from watching the video. Too lazy to 
even try to remember my login, and I figured reading the comments in this 
thread would be enough :)







<>

RE: Future of Naiad

[Thomas Volkmann]

Oh, you are right. But the link that was provided required a login for whatever
reason


> Graham Bell  hat am 15. August 2013 um 11:01
> geschrieben:
> 
> 
>  You don’t have to login to watch these videos. Most (if not all) of the
> movies from events can be viewed without logging in.
> 
>  Getting to stuff, like tutorials and downloads, then logging in is required.
> 
> 
> 
>  G
> 
> 
> 
>  From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Volkmann
>  Sent: 15 August 2013 08:43
>  To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>  Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   > > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging
> > in to The Area..??
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  > 
>  Haha, that is exactly what kept me away from watching the video. Too lazy to
> even try to remember my login, and I figured reading the comments in this
> thread would be enough :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  -
> 
>  Autodesk Limited
>  Registered Office: One Discovery Place, Columbus Drive, Farnborough,
> Hampshire GU14 0NZ
>  Registered in England and Wales, No. 1839239
> 

Re: Future of Naiad

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

i can watch those video even on my ipad without logging in?

On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Morten Bartholdy wrote:

> **
>
> Thanks for posting Luc!
>
>
>
>  Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging
> in to The Area..??
>
>
>
>   Morten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Den 14. august 2013 kl. 21:33 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> >:
>
>
>   The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with
> bifrost is called "  Behind the curtain of RD "
> http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
>
>
>
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Adam Seeley]

Try to Copy & paste the link instead of clicking on it...

A.


 
-
Yoyo Digital Ltd.
07956 976 245
http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk

https://vimeo.com/adamseeley







 From: Luc-Eric Rousseau 
To: Morten Bartholdy ; "softimage@listproc.autodesk.com" 
 
Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 14:38
Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
 


i can watch those video even on my ipad without logging in?

On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Morten Bartholdy  wrote:

 
>Thanks for posting Luc! 
>  
>Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging in to 
>The Area..??  
>
>  
>
>  
>Morten
> 
> 
> 
>
>Den 14. august 2013 kl. 21:33 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau : 
>
>
>The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost is 
>called "  Behind the curtain of RD " http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013 
>  

Re: Future of Naiad

[Morten Bartholdy]

copy/paste does the trick - thanks :)

MB


Den 15. august 2013 kl. 15:44 skrev Adam Seeley :

> Try to Copy & paste the link instead of clicking on it...
> 
> A.
> 
> 
> -
> Yoyo Digital Ltd.
> 07956 976 245
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk
> <http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=21162305>
> https://vimeo.com/adamseeley <https://vimeo.com/album/2280465>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> To: Morten Bartholdy ;
> "softimage@listproc.autodesk.com" 
> Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 14:38
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> 
> i can watch those video even on my ipad without logging in?
> 
> On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
> > Thanks for posting Luc!
> > 
> > Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging in
> > to The Area..??
> > 
> > 
> > Morten
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Den 14. august 2013 kl. 21:33 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau <
> > luceri...@gmail.com >:
> > 
> > > The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost
> > > is called "  Behind the curtain of RD "
> > > http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
> > > <https://connect.autodesk.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=bK-GRTdfLUiXi2n0RgTMcYqHgi28bNAIpkHDsL63ZwuMDdYAFdDXoVTVWcZLNdA1fgkawqvC1gw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2farea.autodesk.com%2fAnaheim2013>
> > 
> > 
> 

Re: Future of Naiad

[Rob Chapman]

here is the text link Luc Eric posted (which works without a login)
http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013

here is where it was actually linked to in html - and *does* require a login
https://connect.autodesk.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=bK-GRTdfLUiXi2n0RgTMcYqHgi28bNAIpkHDsL63ZwuMDdYAFdDXoVTVWcZLNdA1fgkawqvC1gw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2farea.autodesk.com%2fAnaheim2013

which looks like someones computer at autodesk... do you have the
password for this Luc?  ;)


On 15 August 2013 15:44, Adam Seeley  wrote:
> Try to Copy & paste the link instead of clicking on it...
>
> A.
>
> -
> Yoyo Digital Ltd.
> 07956 976 245
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk
> https://vimeo.com/adamseeley
>
>
>
>
> 
> From: Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> To: Morten Bartholdy ;
> "softimage@listproc.autodesk.com" 
> Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 14:38
>
> Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>
> i can watch those video even on my ipad without logging in?
>
> On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
>
> Thanks for posting Luc!
>
> Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging in
> to The Area..??
>
>
> Morten
>
>
>
>
> Den 14. august 2013 kl. 21:33 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau :
>
> The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with bifrost is
> called "  Behind the curtain of RD "
> http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

ho right, thanks Outlook ; )
Le 2013-08-15 10:21, "Rob Chapman"  a écrit :

> here is the text link Luc Eric posted (which works without a login)
> http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
>
> here is where it was actually linked to in html - and *does* require a
> login
>
> https://connect.autodesk.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=bK-GRTdfLUiXi2n0RgTMcYqHgi28bNAIpkHDsL63ZwuMDdYAFdDXoVTVWcZLNdA1fgkawqvC1gw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2farea.autodesk.com%2fAnaheim2013
>
> which looks like someones computer at autodesk... do you have the
> password for this Luc?  ;)
>
>
> On 15 August 2013 15:44, Adam Seeley  wrote:
> > Try to Copy & paste the link instead of clicking on it...
> >
> > A.
> >
> > -
> > Yoyo Digital Ltd.
> > 07956 976 245
> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk
> > https://vimeo.com/adamseeley
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> > To: Morten Bartholdy ;
> > "softimage@listproc.autodesk.com" 
> > Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 14:38
> >
> > Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
> >
> > i can watch those video even on my ipad without logging in?
> >
> > On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for posting Luc!
> >
> > Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for logging
> in
> > to The Area..??
> >
> >
> > Morten
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Den 14. august 2013 kl. 21:33 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau <
> luceri...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with
> bifrost is
> > called "  Behind the curtain of RD "
> > http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: Future of Naiad

[Vincent Fortin]

Looks like Duncan's corner has made a come back! I love his work, he's got
to be one of the most hands-on developer in the industry.


On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote:

> ho right, thanks Outlook ; )
> Le 2013-08-15 10:21, "Rob Chapman"  a écrit :
>
> here is the text link Luc Eric posted (which works without a login)
>> http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
>>
>> here is where it was actually linked to in html - and *does* require a
>> login
>>
>> https://connect.autodesk.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=bK-GRTdfLUiXi2n0RgTMcYqHgi28bNAIpkHDsL63ZwuMDdYAFdDXoVTVWcZLNdA1fgkawqvC1gw.&URL=http%3a%2f%2farea.autodesk.com%2fAnaheim2013
>>
>> which looks like someones computer at autodesk... do you have the
>> password for this Luc?  ;)
>>
>>
>> On 15 August 2013 15:44, Adam Seeley  wrote:
>> > Try to Copy & paste the link instead of clicking on it...
>> >
>> > A.
>> >
>> > -
>> > Yoyo Digital Ltd.
>> > 07956 976 245
>> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/adamseeleyuk
>> > https://vimeo.com/adamseeley
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 
>> > From: Luc-Eric Rousseau 
>> > To: Morten Bartholdy ;
>> > "softimage@listproc.autodesk.com" 
>> > Sent: Thursday, 15 August 2013, 14:38
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: Future of Naiad
>> >
>> > i can watch those video even on my ipad without logging in?
>> >
>> > On Thursday, August 15, 2013, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
>> >
>> > Thanks for posting Luc!
>> >
>> > Is AD ever going to get rid of the mega annoying requirement for
>> logging in
>> > to The Area..??
>> >
>> >
>> > Morten
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Den 14. august 2013 kl. 21:33 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau <
>> luceri...@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> > The siggraph user group meeting videos were posted.  The one with
>> bifrost is
>> > called "  Behind the curtain of RD "
>> > http://area.autodesk.com/Anaheim2013
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>