Re: html whitelist wish

[Peter Meyns]

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Hi The,

on Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:50:18 -0500GMT, you wrote:

TFC> I hope I'm asking to the right list, but I'd like to know
TFC> if some of you are agree with this wishlist
TFC> https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=1780

PLEASE, not again. We have had this for so many times over and over.

TFC> I really hope this will be implemented in thebat so we can
TFC> see mailing list in html format.

I don't. Use a browser if you need content that wasn't sent along with
the message. The Bat! is an email client, not a browser. And I don't
want her to be.

- - --
Cheers
Peter

The Bat! v3.0.2.10 :beta: on Win2K, SP4, 5, 0, build 2195,
AMD Athlon 2200+ at 1800MHz, 512 MB RAM

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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

Hello Peter Meyns

  On 24 février 2005 at 22:18:20GMT +0100 (which was 16:18 where I live)
Peter Meyns [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

PM> I don't. Use a browser if you need content that wasn't sent along with
PM> the message. The Bat! is an email client, not a browser. And I don't
PM> want her to be.

that's all the reason for the whitelist and having the option to block by 
default
thunderbird isnt a web browser either ;)


-- 
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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

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Hello Cees

  On 24 février 2005 at 22:34:18GMT +0100 (which was 16:34 where I live)
Cees [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

C> AMEN to that!

C>  If you want THAT kinda crap... use that bitch that's called Outlook Express!
C>  Let's  keep  TheBat!  the decent email client it is and NOT change it into a
C>  Microsoft Monster.

wow that's sad to see thebat users to closed mind :(

this an option that would be disabled by default


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Krzysztof Trybowski]

Hello The,
On Thursday, February 24, 2005 you wrote:

> This is a great idea to compete with thunderbird and any email
> clients that actually download images from website
> If I put thunderbird as exemple, you can choose to download
> images from address you have in personnal address book or in
> collected address book.

I  absolutely  agree.  This will perhaps happen one day. The only pain
is,  if  it  will be done in a sensible way. I think this should be an
action  that  would  only be executed when some certain conditions are
met.  For  example when the sender is in addressbook. It could also be
an action in sorting office or an option if a context menu. I doubt if
there should be a system-wide switch for that. And I think there could
be  some sort of filename matching with a black-list, so that external
image  of  suspicious names would be by default treated with even more
caution.

Regards

-- 
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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

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Hello Krzysztof Trybowski

  On 24 février 2005 at 23:29:14GMT +0100 (which was 17:29 where I live)
Krzysztof Trybowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

KT> I  absolutely  agree.  This will perhaps happen one day. The only pain
KT> is,  if  it  will be done in a sensible way. I think this should be an
KT> action  that  would  only be executed when some certain conditions are
KT> met.  For  example when the sender is in
KT> addressbook. It could also be
KT> an action in sorting office or an option if a context menu. I doubt if
KT> there should be a system-wide switch for that. And I think there could
KT> be  some sort of filename matching with a
KT> black-list, so that external
KT> image  of  suspicious names would be by default treated with even more
KT> caution.

KT> Regards


Yup, having thebat to block all images by default and having a whitelist or 
allowing address from a particular folder in your address book would be awsome

downloading images from web is far from being a security issue this way

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello The,

  A reminder of what The Final Cut on TBBETA typed on:
  24 February 2005 at 22:38:25 GMT +0100

TFC> wow that's sad to see thebat users to closed mind

 Nothing to do with closed minds. Most people on here chose TB!
 specifically because of it's inability to handle html. You go changing
 that and everyone will have to find another client.


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

Hello Tony Boom

On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 3:29:32 AM
You wrote:

TB> Nothing to do with closed minds. Most people on here chose TB!
TB>  specifically because of it's inability to handle html. You go changing
TB>  that and everyone will have to find another client.

Well that will make me keep Thunderbird and forget to buy a license of thebat 
for my wife and I

You must be kidding to think ppl would have to switch to another email client 
if thebat download images from web.

As mentionned _many_ times, that would work with a whitelist and the most 
important, the option would be disabled by default.




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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

Hello Paul Van Noord

On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 6:49:57 AM
You wrote:

PVN> Hi The,

PVN> Some day you will experience circumstances that change your mind.
PVN> Until then please continue using Thunderbird and allow TB to be what
PVN> it was designed to be...a very powerful _and_ secure email client.
PVN> Thunderbird has many peers. The Bat! has none! We do not want your
PVN> ideas to destroy that!

1. I will continu to use thunderbird for sure
2. that was not my idea but damn this is a good one
3. peers? show me some and your sources

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Richard Wakeford]

Hello Ethan,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 you wrote in 

EJM> I must confess, however, I'm worried. I am waiting for the latest
EJM> release of the new beta to really understand where the changes in
EJM> development, reduction in bugs and stability of the product are
EJM> going.

EJM> I realize a "deep alpha" was released earlier this week.  However, I
EJM> want to wait until the BETA comes out to better understand the
EJM> changes.

Well, I've been persisiting with the Alpha and there are lots of good
possibilities with it. I say possibilities because I reckon this is so
far off a beta that it'll be a long time before they put one out.
However they could just be playing clever and release an Alpha even
though they already have a good Beta up their sleeve so that every one
will be totally amazed at the speed whith which they have improved the
Alpha! Erm, perhaps not.

Seriously there really are lots of good things coming, I think, but
there seems to be a long way to go.

-- 
Regards,
Richard

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Dave Gorman]

Paul Van Noord wrote:
TFC> 3. peers? show me some and your sources
Eudora, OE, Outlook, etc.
I don't think Thunderbird reaches anywhere near the level of bloat and 
unusability of any of these. Outhouse and Outhouse Express especially 
are in a class of their own when it comes to bloat and security flaws.

I do like TBird's *optional* downloading of HTML images and proper 
display of HTML formatted emails. Some of the newsletters and so forth 
that I receive by email are actually readable without having to open 
them in the browser! And since it is *optional*, I am not by default 
opening myself to the security risks of downloading any and all images.

However, when it comes to TB, usable IMAP is far more important to me 
than anything to do with HTML. If we want to talk about unusable IMAP, 
TB truly is without peers among MUA's that claim to support IMAP!

--
Dave

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mark Partous]

Hello Paul,

Friday, February 25, 2005, 10:41:07 AM, you wrote:

PVN> Amen! Very well put and expresses my opinion exactly! If formatting is
PVN> necessary, create a PDF and send as an attachment.

Even though I have told them manier times, some (of the world's biggest
insurance) companies keep on sending me messages with attached pdf-files.

Let's take a look at one of the latest:

Content : one company logo and a table of values, 2 pages in total.
Size: 912 kb.

After reformating by me : 54 kb. with a minimal loss of quality (if one looks
carefully, it can be seen in the logo).

AFAIC, not such a good idea, after all!

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello The,

  A reminder of what The Final Cut on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 12:37:15 GMT +0100

TFC> You must be kidding to think ppl would have to switch to another
TFC> email client if thebat download images from web

 Must I? Why not ask them!

 Your new to this list so you don't know the past 4 years history of this 
subject.

TFC> Well that will make me keep Thunderbird and forget to buy a license of
TFC> thebat for my wife and I

So your using a non registered version then? Strange as it identifies here
as being registered. By your own admission you must be using an illegal
cracked copy.




-- 
Tony.
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Dave Gorman]

Paul Van Noord wrote:
Also, its editor is primitive compared to MicroEd.
I'll agree wholeheartedly with that. MicroEd is far and away the think I 
miss most about TB! However, simply being able to receive my mail is 
considerably more important than the editor.

DG> I do like TBird's *optional* downloading of HTML images and proper
DG> display of HTML formatted emails. 

I work almost exclusively with neophyte users all over the world.
Having this option is one way for the ignorant to become vulnerable.
I see your point. But on the other hand, these same neophyts could open 
the same email in their browser with the same results. Plus, TBird's 
display of HTML emails *without* remote images is still far superior and 
more readable than TB!'s non-image display.

Most of my subscriptions have a text only option which I use
exclusively. When your internet access is paid for by the minute the
typically 1/5 size of a text message pays dividends.
True :)
DG> However, when it comes to TB, usable IMAP is far more important to me
DG> than anything to do with HTML. If we want to talk about unusable IMAP,
DG> TB truly is without peers among MUA's that claim to support IMAP!
I understand. However, virtually all the people I support do not have
IMAP as an option, nor is it desirable in most instances.
Everyone has different priorities. In spite of all of its shortcomings, 
TBird is a far better fit for my priorities right now than TB!. All of 
us are stating our priorities and wishes in the hopes that they will be 
taken into consideration by RITLabs as they continue to develop TB!.

--
Dave

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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Paul Van Noord wrote:
> On 2/25/2005 The Final Cut wrote:
> TFC> 3. peers? show me some and your sources
> Eudora, OE, Outlook, etc.

Eudora MAYBE. Remotely.  OE and Outlook no way!



-- 
Dave Calvarese
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mark Partous]

Hello Tony,

I could have replied to other messages, so there's no reason to feel singled
out! :-)

Friday, February 25, 2005, 3:10:46 PM, you wrote:

TB>  Your new to this list so you don't know the past 4 years history of this 
subject.

Well, I must admit, I'm only here for some 2 years and 2 months too.

I think these discussions are a bit futile.

Imagine a good reliable car with 4 doors. One day someone who likes the car,
thinks about buying one, says he'd prefer being able to open the windows.

EEK!, a group of users shout. That would mean the smog can get in! We don't
want that! If that happens we sure won't buy the next model!

Ok then, says the customer. I'll stick to my current brand of car. It has
some disadvantages, but I can open the windows whenever I think it's safe to
do so...  I think it's a little bit ridiculous though, he said, since being
able to open the windows doesn't imply that you HAVE TO open them.

You silly boy, the group of long-time users said, you don't know what you
are talking about.

And at the end of another day of nice driving in their beloved old car, all
went to sleep in their bed.

Not without opening the doors of their car of course!  :-)



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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mary Bull]

Hello Mark!

On Friday, February 25, 2005, 9:30 AM, you wrote:

Mark> And at the end of another day of nice driving in their beloved
Mark> old car, all went to sleep in their bed.
Mark> Not without opening the doors of their car of course!  :-)

LOL But! As was pointed out in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
if the capability is there, someone outside can "force" you to roll
down the window. All the same, an apt analogy, Mark.

Paul>> At least with a large attachment I can choose to download it.
Paul>> With HTML messages I have no choice if I need to know the
Paul>> content and I make myself vulnerable in the process.

Well said, Paul. I'm with you and Tony on this issue.

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Richard Wakeford]

Hello Paul,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 you wrote in 

PVN> As long as software developers and camera makers insist on
PVN> defaulting to total bloat this problem will exist.

Software yes but camera makers? I don't think so. When I take a picture
I waht the highest qualitiy possible and then I resize as well as
reducing the quality a little if putting it on the web or mailing it to
someone. Alright, there are many people out there who don't know how to
do that but I want my pictures in my camera to be of the highest quality
possible thank you :-)

-- 
Regards,
Richard

| The Bat! 3.0.9.1 Deep Alpha & SpamPal
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mark Partous]

Hello Paul,

Friday, February 25, 2005, 4:48:41 PM, you wrote:

PVN> I'm curious.

You'll have to stay in that state until after the WE.

I (probably) won't be able to reply to you and/or others for the next three
days.

I'm off to play a pig!  The one that plays it safe and builds his house
with bricks... That's a coïncidence. :-)


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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Paul Van Noord wrote:
> On 2/25/2005 Richard Wakeford wrote:
 > A 1600x1200 picture reduced to 320x240 for viewing in a newsletter
> will look worse than the same picture taken at 640x480. Why waste the
> resources for an inferior product?

Then go buy a sub 1 MP camera.  I prefer to take better quality
pictures, so I have them to print out.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Richard Wakeford]

Hello Paul,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 you wrote in 

PVN> A 1600x1200 picture reduced to 320x240 for viewing in a newsletter
PVN> will look worse than the same picture taken at 640x480. Why waste the
PVN> resources for an inferior product?

Because I keep the pictures (in this case aircraft or flying related)
for myself and often don't know one of the results will end up in a
flying Newsletter that I also write. I wouldn't buy a camera that only
took pictures 640X480. All my pictures are left full size because I have
a screen that can take them as that.

It boils down to having the choice if you want it doesn't it, a bit like
this HTML business that everyone will talk about until the cows come
home. Me? I think if there's an option then fine, everyone is catered
for. Personally I never use it.


--

Regards, Richard

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Tony,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:29:32 + GMT (25/02/2005, 15:29 +0700 GMT),
Tony Boom wrote:

TB>  Nothing to do with closed minds. Most people on here chose TB!
TB>  specifically because of it's inability to handle html. You go changing
TB>  that and everyone will have to find another client.

All has been said. I wouldn't change clients if TB offered the option
of a whitelist, I'm a member of the "pro" movement.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Klaus Toppmoeller: Ich musste meine Jungs ins kalte Feuer werfen.

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Dave Gorman]

Paul Van Noord wrote:
I'm curious. What do you say to the people who have a dead 2 year-old
who strangled himself by pressing the up button on the window with his
knee because his dad forgot to set the window lock?
First I'd ask why the 2 year old wasn't secured in a child seat while 
the car was powered on. And then I'd say the analogy is being carried to 
ridiculous lengths. Remote images in HTML emails don't quite have the 
capacity to kill young children. They might let a spammer know your 
email address is valid, but that's quite a different matter.

We're simply talking about building software that will allow the end 
user options as to how best the software can suit his/her needs. We're 
talking about letting the end user have the control, instead of the 
software manufacturer taking on a Microsoft-like "We know what is best 
for you" attitude.

Granted, there are many end users who will not know the ramifications of 
their choices. Buy why should my computing experience be diminished or 
made more inconvenient for no reason other than to prevent the stupid 
users from screwing things up?

--
Dave

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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Dave Gorman wrote:
> Paul Van Noord wrote:
> We're simply talking about building software that will allow the end 
> user options as to how best the software can suit his/her needs. We're 
> talking about letting the end user have the control, instead of the 
> software manufacturer taking on a Microsoft-like "We know what is best 
> for you" attitude.

Perhaps a warning when when you click on it about the dangers...  Even
TBird is capable of sanatizing HTML before displaying it.  Other email
clients display proper HTML and Images if you ask them too, yet they
still manage to keep you safe as well.  I don't see why TB! can't do it too.

Someone on this list called Pocomail a 'child's toy', but it's a child's
toy that has basic functionality that TB! is currently lacking.  Both
the HTML/Image issue as well as (IIRC) proper IMAP support.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Dennis Hays]

Quoting Dave Gorman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

---snipped--
> Granted, there are many end users who will not know the
> ramifications of
> their choices. Buy why should my computing experience be
> diminished or
> made more inconvenient for no reason other than to prevent the
> stupid
> users from screwing things up?
>

What we all have in common, on this list, are the reasons we
originally came to TB! And, from a marketing point of view,
these have to be respected. I don't think most of us looked at
this product because of its fine HTML viewer.

Dennis

--
Dennis Hays
http://www.HaysDesign.com
+1 518.331.3232



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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Paul Van Noord wrote:
> 2/25/2005  2:25 PM
> 
> Hi David,
> 
> Conversely, POCO is missing much of TB's functionality and has had
> perpetual stability issues.

I can't recall ever having a stability problem with Poco.  Yes, Poco
might be missing a lot of the advanced features... But it at least has
all the basics.  I won't get into Pocoscript. :)

-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello David,

  A reminder of what David Calvarese on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 19:39:29 GMT +0100

DC> Someone on this list called Pocomail a 'child's toy', but it's a child's
DC> toy that has basic functionality that TB! is currently lacking

 And the reason TB is lacking it is because it's taken us years of
 campaigning to keep it that way.

 I don't see why your so adamant to get full html support. You keep
 comparing TB to all these other email clients, if they're that good and do
 what you want then use one of them.

 Incredimail does html pretty well, it's crap at everything else but it'll
 do what your asking.


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Dennis,

  A reminder of what Dennis Hays on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 19:44:31 GMT +0100

DH> I don't think most of us looked at
DH> this product because of its fine HTML viewer.

 When I first started using The Bat it didn't even have a html viewer at
 all. Plain text was all it had.


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello David,

  A reminder of what David Calvarese on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 20:39:45 GMT +0100

DC> Poco might be missing a lot of the advanced features... But it at least
DC> has all the basics

So has a pencil and paper.

What fascinates me is all these newcomers come on here singing the praises
of all these other crap email clients but they still want to use The Bat,
why?

If TB! doesn't do what they want it to do and Poco or Thunderbird does then
use that and join the relevant list and you can send html all day long
without anyone moaning!



-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Tony Boom wrote:
>  And the reason TB is lacking it is because it's taken us years of
>  campaigning to keep it that way.
> 
>  I don't see why your so adamant to get full html support. You keep
>  comparing TB to all these other email clients, if they're that good and do
>  what you want then use one of them.
> 
>  Incredimail does html pretty well, it's crap at everything else but it'll
>  do what your asking.

Because most of the other clients are crappy otherwise. :)  And at the
moment, I AM using Thunderbird and not TB!. Because TB! has at least 1
problem with GnuPG that I can't get around.


-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Tony Boom wrote:
> If TB! doesn't do what they want it to do and Poco or Thunderbird does then
> use that and join the relevant list and you can send html all day long
> without anyone moaning!

Never said I wanted to send HTML email, I'm quite happy with text.  I
just want to be able to read it right when I choose to.  I get a few
newsletters that are not available as text only and that TB! just
horribly mangled.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Dave Gorman]

Tony Boom wrote:
What fascinates me is all these newcomers come on here singing the praises
of all these other crap email clients but they still want to use The Bat,
why?
If TB! doesn't do what they want it to do and Poco or Thunderbird does then
use that and join the relevant list and you can send html all day long
without anyone moaning!
In some areas, TB! is as good as it gets. In other areas it is lacking. 
I would love to use TB for the things it is good at, but the areas where 
it sucks (particulary IMAP) prevent me from using it at all. Is there 
something wrong with wanting a good email client to be better?

As for adding features that you and some others may not want, do you 
presently use every single feature TB has to offer? If not, why aren't 
you screaming for removal of what you consider unnecessary features?

--
Dave

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Dwight A Corrin]

On Friday, February 25, 2005, 2:06:18 PM, David Calvarese wrote:

>  I just want to be able to read it right when I choose to.  I get a
> few newsletters that are not available as text only and that TB!
> just horribly mangled.

I also get lots of HTML newsletters, but never seen one mangled, let
along horribly mangled. If I want to look at any of the stuff behind
any of the little red 'x's it's very simple to merely double-click the
message.html icon, and I can always follow one of the links. It works
great. We, unfortunately, use Outlook 2003 here at the office, and
have it restricted so that it doesn't download all the crap in all the
spam which shows up, as a security move. So the only safe way to use
software which does the unnecessary is to disable that function.

-- 
Dwight A. Corrin
928 S Broadway
Wichita KS 67211
316.303.1411  fax 316.265.7568
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Using The Bat! 3.0.1.33 on Windows XP version 5,1



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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello David,

  A reminder of what David Calvarese on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 21:00:28 GMT +0100

DC> Because most of the other clients are crappy otherwise.

Then stop trying to turn The Bat into an otherwise crappy client.

DC> :) And at the moment, I AM using Thunderbird and not TB!.

In that case join a thunderbird list and don't come on here saying
Thunderbird can do this and Thunderbird can do that. If html is THE ONLY
thing The Bat can't do compared to all the others then bugger off and tell
the Thunderbird list that.

DC> Because TB! has at least 1 problem with GnuPG that I can't get around.

No, it doesn't, you may have a problem but you can get around it.


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

> DC> Because TB! has at least 1 problem with GnuPG that I can't get around.
> 
> No, it doesn't, you may have a problem but you can get around it.

It won't let you select multiple keys to encrypt to with GnuPG.  There
are ways around it, setting up groups in the gpg.conf file, or using a
3rd party utility like GPGShell to do it, but I shouldn't have to.


-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello David,

  A reminder of what David Calvarese on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 21:07:09 GMT +0100

DC> Never said I wanted to send HTML email, I'm quite happy with text.

 OK, my apologies.

DC> I just want to be able to read it right when I choose to. I get a few
DC> newsletters that are not available as text only and that TB! just
DC> horribly mangled.

Have you ever thought to double click the html attachment to see what
happens? Oh look, the browser opens and there's your html newsletter
complete with all those pretty pictures... Don't tell me your too lazy to
double click a mouse button?

Sorry David and that other chap with the illegal copy of TB! but for the
sake of a few mouse clicks to get exactly what you want I don't see the
point in ruining a perfectly good email program.

-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello David,

  A reminder of what David Calvarese on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 21:30:23 GMT +0100

DC> but I shouldn't have to.

 Why? If you need a tool to do a job then why shouldn't you use it if it
 does what you want it to do?

 I have a vacuum cleaner that cleans the carpet but I still have to push it
 up and down... But I shouldn't have to should I?


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Tony Boom wrote:
 > Sorry David and that other chap with the illegal copy of TB! but for the
> sake of a few mouse clicks to get exactly what you want I don't see the
> point in ruining a perfectly good email program.

Oh, I don't mind the double click all that much, it'd be annoying if I
had a lot of them though.  Though having to open them in a browser might
  make things interesting if I had to reply to an HTML that I had to
read that way.

How will adding features to it ruin TB!? I'm not saying to have it on by
default or anything, but a simple button that says 'Display Remote
images' wouldn't hurt.  None of us are saying that TB! should do it OE's
way and just display them.  We just want the option to be able to click
a button and have it display them if we want it too.  And possibly being
able to tag an address in the address book to 'Display Remote Images' or
even 'Trust HTML email from people in your address book', though both of
those have dangers to them.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Tony Boom wrote:
> DC> but I shouldn't have to.
> 
>  Why? If you need a tool to do a job then why shouldn't you use it if it
>  does what you want it to do?
> 
>  I have a vacuum cleaner that cleans the carpet but I still have to push it
>  up and down... But I shouldn't have to should I?

They make Vacum cleaners that are self-propelled that you don't have to
push.  They also advertise themselves as 'Self Propelled'.  Same with
lawn mowers.

TB! advertises that it has GnuPG support so it should support it.  At
least as good as it does PGP I think.  Unlike the HTML/Image debate,
this is just wanting functionality that is already advertised as
supported.  Same thing with the faulty IMAP support.

If TB! would get it's act together with those two things, I'd gladly
switch back from Thunderbird.


-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello David,

  A reminder of what David Calvarese on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 21:54:55 GMT +0100

DC> They make Vacum cleaners that are self-propelled that you don't have to
DC> push.  They also advertise themselves as 'Self Propelled'.  Same with
DC> lawn mowers.

Plug their self in, recharge themselves, cut the grass, hoover the carpet
and then empty their selves as well do they? Wow! need to get me one of
those :)

DC> If TB! would get it's act together with those two things, I'd gladly
DC> switch back from Thunderbird

So for the sake of those two very minor details your forsaking all the rest
of TB's undisputed power and functionality? That's like winning a brand new
car and then going everywhere by bus because you don't like the colour.

Each to his own I suppose... Must go now, I've been asked to move out the
way for a minute by the vacuum cleaner :)


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Tony Boom wrote:
> Hello David,
> Plug their self in, recharge themselves, cut the grass, hoover the carpet
> and then empty their selves as well do they? Wow! need to get me one of
> those :)

Funny you should mention that, there are both Vacums and lawn mowers
that do that...

> DC> If TB! would get it's act together with those two things, I'd gladly
> DC> switch back from Thunderbird
> So for the sake of those two very minor details your forsaking all the rest
> of TB's undisputed power and functionality? That's like winning a brand new
> car and then going everywhere by bus because you don't like the colour.

When IMAP is something you need, you have no choice.  Or to use your
analogy, perhaps the roads where you need to go are restricted to Bus
travel.

> Each to his own I suppose... Must go now, I've been asked to move out the
> way for a minute by the vacuum cleaner :)

Be sure to change it's filter for it. :)


-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Marcus Ohlström]

On Friday, February 25, 2005, 19:42, Dennis Hays wrote:

> What we all have in common, on this list, are the reasons we
> originally came to TB! And, from a marketing point of view, these have
> to be respected. I don't think most of us looked at this product
> because of its fine HTML viewer.

When I first started using TB!, HTML was merely not a question. Now it
is.

The wish originally linked to in this thread was filed by me, mainly
because I then used TB! at work and had to deal with newsletter sent to
me in HTML, newsletter I could not read without downloading the inline
images.

I had two choices, manually opening every newsletter in a separate
browser window or switching email client. I choose the former, but must
admit I at several time was close to switching email client instead.

I could not affect the ones sending those letters and I had to read them
to be able to carry out my daily work. As long as emails in the
corporate world are sent with inline images, a MUA targeted at the
corporate world must be able to handle inline images. The money is with
the corporate world and Ritlabs need the money, hence my request to
adjust TB! to fit the needs of corporate users.

I do however appreciate the focus on security and privacy and thus
suggested an *optional* *whitelist*, not a general downloading of all
images. But that has been covered in this thread several times already.

-- 
Regards,
Marcus Ohlström

Using The Bat! v3.0.1.33 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4
PGP Public Key at http://www.canit.se/~marcus/pgp.asc






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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello David,

  A reminder of what David Calvarese on TBBETA typed on:
  25 February 2005 at 22:16:21 GMT +0100

DC> Funny you should mention that, there are both Vacums and lawn mowers
DC> that do that...

 They can reach that high can they, have you seen the size of my wheelie
 bin?

 What about hedge trimmers? And what about fish, I hate fish :)
 
-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[AC Martin]

Hi Dave Gorman,
 On 25/2/2005 9:14 AM, you wrote:

> I see your point. But on the other hand, these same neophyts could open
> the same email in their browser with the same results. Plus, TBird's
> display of HTML emails *without* remote images is still far superior and
> more readable than TB!'s non-image display.

It's the overlooking of this very basic workaround that perplexes me.
The other thing is that the neophyte is unlikely to be using one of
the browsers that is able to not load images. Furthermore, who browses
with the image loading option disabled by default? Certainly not the
neophyte. :)


--
_ _   _   _
   /_\   | | | | (_)  ___| IMAP Clients: The Bat! v3.0.2.8
  / _ \  | | | | | | / -_)   |   ThunderBird v1.0
 /_/ \_\ |_| |_| |_| \___|   | OS: WinXP Pro (Service Pack 2)
-=-=-
System halted. There is NOTHING you can do.


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Re: html whitelist wish

[AC Martin]

Hi Mary Bull,
 On 25/2/2005 10:44 AM, you wrote:

> LOL But! As was pointed out in
> mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] if the capability is
> there, someone outside can "force" you to roll down the window. All
> the same, an apt analogy, Mark.

I wonder who that would be. Mary, I'm happily using Thunderbird here
which has the ability to retrieve images. I haven't had to resist any
force urging me to use the option when I don't wish to. I haven't
resisted any urge that a neophyte would be overcome by.

BTW, if the neophyte is curious about TB! not loading images, they'll
ask us and we'd be the first to tell them to *simply* open the message
in their browser, leaving them at risk, even if we warn them. :)

ThunderBird has this feature since it's a Mozilla component so there's
really no new code to write. TB! would need new functionality
implemented. I'm indifferent either way about it.

To me, this is really no different from the fear of elevators by
staircase users who say that elevators are for those too lazy and that
they can get trapped or hurt in them. True, but is it really a valid
argument for not using elevators?

--
_ _   _   _
   /_\   | | | | (_)  ___| IMAP Clients: The Bat! v3.0.2.8
  / _ \  | | | | | | / -_)   |   ThunderBird v1.0
 /_/ \_\ |_| |_| |_| \___|   | OS: WinXP Pro (Service Pack 2)
-=-=-
Don't thank me for insulting you. It was my pleasure...


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Allie]

Hi Tony Boom,
 On 25/2/2005 3:37 PM, you wrote:

> Have you ever thought to double click the html attachment to see what
> happens? Oh look, the browser opens and there's your html newsletter
> complete with all those pretty pictures... Don't tell me your too lazy to
> double click a mouse button?

Oh come on now Tony. Doesn't your attraction to TB! stem a lot from
the fact that it prevents you from having to do a lot of repetitive
stuff? Does that make you a lazy person???

Are those who use templates lazy???

Are those who use address auto-completion lazy?? Surely they can type
the rest of the characters?

Are those who wish for auto-checking of PGP sigs lazy? Surely it's
easy to just take the mouse and click on the little icon in the header
bar? After using ThunderBird, this one annoys the hell out of me and
I'd sure love TB! to do it. Now don't tell me to go use ThunderBird,
just because I wish for TB! to implement a nice feature I encountered
elsewhere.

Of course, if someone were to tell you that templates are for the
lazy, you'd say they didn't know what they were talking about,
wouldn't you?

-- 
  _ _ _   __  __
 __ _| | (_)___  |  \/  |
/ _` | | | / -_) | |\/| |
\__,_|_|_|_\___|_|_|  |_|
  |___|
-=-=-
Moderators are not God. God has mercy.


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Krzysztof Trybowski]

Hello Tony,
On Friday, February 25, 2005 you wrote:

>  Nothing to do with closed minds. Most people on here chose TB!
>  specifically because of it's inability to handle html.

Having  read  this  sentence, I don't know: should I laugh or should I
cry?  Believe  me, I, and many others, didn't choose TB because of its
inability  to  display  HTML  (which  was,  BTW, on a TO-DO list since
versions below 1.0)! We had some other and more important reasons. For
example,  possibility  to use more than one account, templates, quotes
coloring.

Adding decent remote image support, will certainty not break anything.
TB!  will not be less secure. TB! will not be less stable. And it will
not  be  slower  (unless,  you  decide to download some remote images,
which  must  take  some  time, but it's irrelevant in your case, since
you'll just never use this option).

And  one  more thing. Please save me your "newcomers" speech (which I,
BTW,  consider  relatively  rude). With quite high chances I'm on this
list  longer  than  you  are (or at least long enough to not be called
that  way).  And  even  if I were, it wouldn't change much. I'd rather
judge  people  on  what  they say and how they manage to justify their
claims  and not on their seniority on this or that list. And I require
others to do the same.

> You go changing that and everyone will have to find another client.

I  tend  to disagree. I'd even take a risk to say that the people that
would change their email client could have been counted on the fingers
of just one hand.

Regards,

-- 
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/ www.trybik.jest.okey.pl   GG 1458144 /--/  "send_key" in subject.  /_
:Krzysztof_Trybowski:
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Re: html whitelist wish

[AC Martin]

Hi Tony,
 On 25/2/2005 3:25 PM, you wrote:

> In that case join a thunderbird list and don't come on here saying
>  Thunderbird can do this and Thunderbird can do that. If html is
> THE ONLY thing The Bat can't do compared to all the others then
> bugger off and tell the Thunderbird list that.

I'm using ThunderBird primarily. However, I'd much *prefer* using TB!
for a lot of reasons. While using ThunderBird, I've encountered
interesting features and approaches. Why not suggest them, especially
if I'm actually not happy with ThunderBird either and am far more
interested in TB! eventually really working for me, rather than
ThunderBird. I've chosen the lesser of two currently bad situations.
This is sad, considering that for years, I couldn't have cared less
about, and didn't really consider other clients.

--
_ _   _   _
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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

Hello Krzysztof Trybowski

On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 7:53:27 PM
You wrote:

KT> Having  read  this  sentence, I don't know: should I laugh or should I
KT> cry?  Believe  me, I, and many others, didn't choose TB because of its
KT> inability  to  display  HTML  (which  was,  BTW, on a TO-DO list since
KT> versions below 1.0)! We had some other and more important reasons. For
KT> example,  possibility  to use more than one
KT> account, templates, quotes
KT> coloring.

KT> Adding decent remote image support, will certainty not break anything.
KT> TB!  will not be less secure. TB! will not be less stable. And it will
KT> not  be  slower  (unless,  you  decide to download some remote images,
KT> which  must  take  some  time, but it's irrelevant in your case, since
KT> you'll just never use this option).

KT> And  one  more thing. Please save me your
KT> "newcomers" speech (which I,
KT> BTW,  consider  relatively  rude). With quite high chances I'm on this
KT> list  longer  than  you  are (or at least long enough to not be called
KT> that  way).  And  even  if I were, it wouldn't change much. I'd rather
KT> judge  people  on  what  they say and how they manage to justify their
KT> claims  and not on their seniority on this or that list. And I require
KT> others to do the same.



Couldn't be said in a better way!

The way the buglist wish is being asked, it's far away from being dangerous! 


-- 
The Final Cut
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

Hello AC Martin

On Friday, February 25, 2005, at 7:58:29 PM
You wrote:

AM> I'm using ThunderBird primarily. However, I'd much *prefer* using TB!
AM> for a lot of reasons. While using ThunderBird, I've encountered
AM> interesting features and approaches. Why not suggest them, especially
AM> if I'm actually not happy with ThunderBird either and am far more
AM> interested in TB! eventually really working for me, rather than
AM> ThunderBird. I've chosen the lesser of two currently bad situations.
AM> This is sad, considering that for years, I couldn't have cared less
AM> about, and didn't really consider other clients.


That is exactly why I'm pushing for this wonderful feature that ThunderBird 
has, and has the right way to protect users.  Whitelist or having the email 
addy in your collected address book

-- 
The Final Cut
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mary Bull]

Hello Allie!

On Friday, February 25, 2005, 6:42 PM, you wrote:

>> LOL But! As was pointed out in
>> mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] if the capability is
>> there, someone outside can "force" you to roll down the window. All
>> the same, an apt analogy, Mark.

> I wonder who that would be. Mary, ...

Well, I was thinking specifically of the anecdote that Paul Van Noord
gave us in the mid that I cited:

Paul Van Noord>> Just this week I received a one page letter with a small
Paul Van Noord>> picture created in M$ word that was 2.29 mb! I reformatted
Paul Van Noord>> it in OpenOfficeand it was only 66k.

Paul said, further, in the same message:

Paul Van Noord>>> At least with a large attachment I can choose to download
Paul Van Noord>>> it. [or not]

Paul  Van  Noord>>>  With  HTML messages I have no choice if I need to
know the content ...

Here is where the "forcing" comes in. Paul needs to know the content.
With "in-line" display of HTML images, he is "forced" to download into
The Bat! whatever is sent in the HTML formatted message and display it
in the View Folder Message Window.

Paul Van Noord>>> ... and I make myself vulnerable in the process.

> ... I'm happily using Thunderbird here
> which has the ability to retrieve images. I haven't had to resist any
> force urging me to use the option when I don't wish to. I haven't
> resisted any urge that a neophyte would be overcome by.

I didn't say that you were, or had. I simply agreed with Paul that the
possibility was there.

> BTW, if the neophyte is curious about TB! not loading images, they'll
> ask us and we'd be the first to tell them to *simply* open the message
> in their browser, leaving them at risk, even if we warn them. :)

> ThunderBird has this feature since it's a Mozilla component so there's
> really no new code to write. TB! would need new functionality
> implemented. I'm indifferent either way about it.

> To me, this is really no different from the fear of elevators by
> staircase users who say that elevators are for those too lazy and that
> they can get trapped or hurt in them. True, but is it really a valid
> argument for not using elevators?

I am tired of analogies and of all this reasoning by analogy.

This is not my fight. I don't receive or send messages in HTML.

It will probably be a long, long time before I need or use IMAP.

I like the version of TB! that I'm now running, and I have the option
to continue to use it for as long as it suits me.

So whatever RitLabs does with The Bat! in the future is fine with me.

But I still agree with the arguments of Tony and Paul. YMMV. ;)

Allie, is your sig delimiter broken? :gdr:

> --
> _ _   _   _
>/_\   | | | | (_)  ___| IMAP Clients: The Bat! v3.0.2.8
>   / _ \  | | | | | | / -_)   |   ThunderBird v1.0
>  /_/ \_\ |_| |_| |_| \___|   | OS: WinXP Pro (Service Pack 2)
> -=-=-
> Don't thank me for insulting you. It was my pleasure...

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Allie]

Hi Paul Van Noord,
 On 25/2/2005 8:18 PM, you wrote:

> Speak for yourself. Those I work with are using Opera and have some
> instruction in responsible internet usage. It in their ignorance that
> most problems occur. In a majority of cases the images in the HTML
> messages I receive are superfluous eye candy.

Couldn't they be instructed in responsible e-mail usage? :) It's in
their ignorance that most problems occur, isn't it? Furthermore, if
TB! loaded the images, what would make it compromise the machine more
than if Opera were to load those same images?

Are you referring to image loading without an option to disable, or
fixed non-optional implementation. Most are referring to the former
and not the latter.

-- 
  _ _ _   __  __
 __ _| | (_)___  |  \/  |
/ _` | | | / -_) | |\/| |
\__,_|_|_|_\___|_|_|  |_|
  |___|
-=-=-
There is no vaccine against stupidity.


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Allie,

  A reminder of what Allie on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 01:49:59 GMT +0100

A> Of course, if someone were to tell you that templates are for the
A> lazy, you'd say they didn't know what they were talking about,
A> wouldn't you?

 OK, I concede defeat, go ahead, Incredibat here we come :)


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Tony.
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Tim,

  A reminder of what Tim Casten on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 12:16:42 GMT +0100

TC> Don't give rit any ideas..Please!

 Why not, pretty pictures one minute, realistic mooing, meowing and
 cock-a-doodle-do sounds the next, what more could one want? :)


-- 
Tony.
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 :gentoo:
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Goncalo,

  A reminder of what Goncalo Farias on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 12:27:19 GMT +0100

GF> For his wife...

   Read it again...

 TFC> for my wife and I

 


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mic Cullen]

At 14:10 [GMT+] on Friday February 25 (actual time - 10:10pm on Friday in
Perth, Western Australia), you wrote:

TFC>> You must be kidding to think ppl would have to switch to another
TFC>> email client if thebat download images from web

>  Must I? Why not ask them!

>  Your new to this list so you don't know the past 4 years history of this 
> subject.

Ah, the "I've been here longer, I know better" argument. Doesn't cut much ice
with people who've been here a fair while, even if it isn't the magic four
years. (BTW, email has changed a whole lot in that four years, and we now have
to deal with a whole new email paradigm, like it or not.)

TFC>> Well that will make me keep Thunderbird and forget to buy a license of
TFC>> thebat for my wife and I

> So your using a non registered version then? Strange as it identifies here
> as being registered. By your own admission you must be using an illegal
> cracked copy.

If you can't play the ball, play the man. Much easier.

I'm all for the feature requested - the "protecting people from themselves"
argument wears a bit thin when it's used to keep legitimate features away from
users who are smart enough to use them wisely.

-- 

cheers, mic

A bore is someone who deprives you of solitude without providing you with 
company.



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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mic Cullen]

At 10:48 [GMT-0500] on Friday February 25 (actual time - 11:48pm on Friday in
Perth, Western Australia), you wrote:

> I'm curious. What do you say to the people who have a dead 2 year-old
> who strangled himself by pressing the up button on the window with his
> knee because his dad forgot to set the window lock?

Truly bizarre. You cannot protect people from themselves all the time, no matter
how much you deprive normal society of supposedly dangerous items. (Like power
windows. Far out. I think cars themselves might kill a few more people than the
power windows in them, and I'm not sure that The Bat has a history of causing
too many fatalities. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

But as an analogy, that's one of the most ridiculous I've seen. Ever.

-- 

cheers, mic

"It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations."
Sir Winston Churchill, My Early Life, 1930



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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Tony Boom wrote:
> Hello Allie,
> A> Of course, if someone were to tell you that templates are for the
> A> lazy, you'd say they didn't know what they were talking about,
> A> wouldn't you?
> 
>  OK, I concede defeat, go ahead, Incredibat here we come :)

None of us want anything like that Tony.  Really.  Incredimail is really
2 lies in one. It's neither Inredible or Email (at least not as Email
should be). All we want is the option to be able to view it correctly
withough having to use a web browser, thus letting us reply to it if we
need/want to.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Paul,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:21:34 -0500 GMT (26/02/2005, 09:21 +0700 GMT),
Paul Van Noord wrote:

PVN> Also, some of those I work with have a 300 baud shortwave radio
PVN> connection for email or a 7500 cell phone connection costing 4.5
PVN> cents/min. They surely do not want HTML nor do they need it.

Nobody ever forces them to. The default would be to not download the
images. I do not understand all these objections to a whitelist, which
nobody needs to use if they don't want to.

PVN> They can selectively download attachments when circumstances
PVN> warrant it on a case by case basis. If the configuration files
PVN> are made inaccessible to the user so they are protected from
PVN> themselves,

Please do not protect *me* from myself. I do not take well to
nannying. If I cause a problem to my system by downloading images, it
will be my own fault and I will have to deal with it. TB is an email
client for grown-ups.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Marcus,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:33:46 +0100 GMT (26/02/2005, 04:33 +0700 GMT),
Marcus Ohlström wrote:

MO> When I first started using TB!, HTML was merely not a question. Now it
MO> is.

Same here. I joined this list in 1999, and I couldn't care less about
HTML at the time. Times have changed.

[snip]
MO> I do however appreciate the focus on security and privacy and thus
MO> suggested an *optional* *whitelist*, not a general downloading of all
MO> images. But that has been covered in this thread several times already.

I agree with all you say.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

I wonder how much deeper would the ocean be without sponges.

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Tony,

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:47:44 + GMT (26/02/2005, 02:47 +0700 GMT),
Tony Boom wrote:

TB>  And the reason TB is lacking it is because it's taken us years of
TB>  campaigning to keep it that way.

I don't want TB to be known as "the email client of the nineties". I
was against downloading images at the time, but times and needs have
changed.

TB> Incredimail does html pretty well, it's crap at everything else
TB> but it'll do what your asking.

We are not talking about this. We are talking about the *option* of
whitelisting newsletters individually for download of images. The
option will be turned off by default, and who wants to whitelist any
address does it on his own risk. I sincerely do not understand your
objections.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Die Sztahlfabriken von Birmingham verbrauchen so viel Stahl, das aller
Stahl, welcher fabricirt wird, dazu nicht ausreichen wuerde.

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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Paul Van Noord wrote:
> I have never been challenged to reply to an HTML message. What is the
> problem?

Unfortunately, I have at work.  We have one vender that forces us to use
HTML Email forms.  Pain in the ass in my opinion, and it means we have
to use a client that's capable of handling them without launching a web
browser.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
Member of E-mailaholics International
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

NetVicious wrote:
> The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
> the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.

That's what I suggested originally... And that works fine for me. (It's
also the default way of operating in Thunderbird).


-- 
Dave Calvarese
Member of E-mailaholics International
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Paul,

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:08:01 -0500 GMT (26/02/2005, 23:08 +0700 GMT),
Paul Van Noord wrote:

TF>> Please do not protect *me* from myself. I do not take well to
TF>> nannying. If I cause a problem to my system by downloading images, it
TF>> will be my own fault and I will have to deal with it. TB is an email
TF>> client for grown-ups.

PVN> Sorry that you saw the need to remove this from your reply;

PVN>>> ...themselves, and, none of this stuff is turned on by
PVN>>> default, I might be able to accept the built-in ability as long as
PVN>>> usability and performance are not affected.

Usability and performance are not effected (to my knowledge), that's
why I left it out.

PVN> This invalidates the legitimacy of your response.

I don't really see that.

PVN> TB is a client for all people, even those who choose to modify
PVN> the facts. I hope this is not representative of all the
PVN> "grown-ups."

I don't know. I just don't like to be told that a non-default option
may cause problems, that's why *I* am not allowed to have it. Reason
being that I need to be protected from myself. Come on.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

Do not be redundant; do not use more words than necessary; it's highly
superfluous.

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RE: html whitelist wish

[Jurgen Haug]

Hello NetVicious,

Saturday, February 26, 2005, 5:07:09 PM, you wrote:

>> We are not talking about this. We are talking about the *option* of
>> whitelisting newsletters individually for download of images. The
>> option will be turned off by default, and who wants to whitelist any
>> address does it on his own risk. I sincerely do not understand your
>> objections.

> The problem here it's this:

> Spammer   A   sends  a  spam-mail  to  you  with  the  from  email  as
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  In  your  TB! you have this address in the
> whitelist of downloading images.

> The  mail has a transparent image from a php file with a serial number
> linked in a database with your mail.

> Now  the  spammer  knows  you  email account it's readed, and you hace
> read the spam mail.

> The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
> the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.

and THIS should be up to the USER. Just as Thomas says (and I agree 
wholeheartedly with him on the whole HTML subject) I hate it when the program 
nannies me.



-- 
regards,
:eu-flag3: :de-bw: :safaribears:

"Ich kann nicht tanzen, ich bin Deutscher""

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mary Bull]

Hello David!

On Saturday, February 26, 2005, 10:33 AM, you wrote:

>> The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
>> the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.

> That's what I suggested originally... And that works fine for me. (It's
> also the default way of operating in Thunderbird).

I would have no problem with that, provided it was not the default in
TB! That way I could ignore the option, since I don't need it.

And those who do need it could configure the "button" to be active.

Are we getting close to consensus here? If so, please meet me on TBOT
for some more savory pecan recipes. :)

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat 3.0.2.10 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2







 Current beta is 3.0.9.1 Deep Alpha | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Mary Bull wrote:
>>> The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
>>> the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.
>> That's what I suggested originally... And that works fine for me. (It's
>> also the default way of operating in Thunderbird).
> I would have no problem with that, provided it was not the default in
> TB! That way I could ignore the option, since I don't need it.

Exactly!  If you don't need the button, don't use it. :)

> And those who do need it could configure the "button" to be active.

Umm, no.  I'd prefer if the button stay off with no option to force it
on.  That way, if you want to view the HTML/remote Images you have to
click the button for each and every message.  Especially since each
message is different and you probably don't want it set to ON. :)

> Are we getting close to consensus here? If so, please meet me on TBOT
> for some more savory pecan recipes. :)

I really need to get some pecans and try that. :)


-- 
Dave Calvarese
Member of E-mailaholics International
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello NetVicious,

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:07:09 +0100 GMT (26/02/2005, 23:07 +0700 GMT),
NetVicious wrote:

N> The problem here it's this:

Yes, I see that. It's a risk I want to be able to take.

N> Now  the  spammer  knows  you  email account it's readed, and you hace
N> read the spam mail.

I'll be doomed. Except that I already receive a lot of spam mails on
this email address and the spam filter works well.

Please do not protect me. I'll do it myself, if the need arises. I'm
no child, I'm in no need of a nanny. Unless I choose the nanny
(anti-spam software) myself.

N> The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
N> the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.

That's a suggestion. But no better than double-clicking on the
attachment icon. I want to actually *whitelist* certain email
addresses, so no manual action is needed when the newsletter arrives.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

- ILLITERATE? WRITE TODAY FOR FREE HELP.

Message reply created with The Bat! 3.0.2.10
under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600Service Pack 2




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Re: html whitelist wish

[The Final Cut]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello tbbeta@thebat.dutaint.com

On Saturday, February 26, 2005, at 11:33:51 AM
You wrote:

DC> NetVicious wrote:
>> The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
>> the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.

DC> That's what I suggested originally... And that works fine for me. (It's
DC> also the default way of operating in Thunderbird).

indeed, check the original post
the threat is gone so far away eh

- --
The Final Cut
Thebat: 3.0.2.10
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1rc2 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFCIK5VmZdOAsVmU04RAoTwAKChR89gSZMjdLpGb4VqbmVyzuf4xQCbBvDD
3yzbXYRP//jYJ4UkZ09RLYM=
=pqp4
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



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Re: html whitelist wish

[Allie Martin]

NetVicious wrote:

> The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
> the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.

... and this is ThunderBird's current offering and one that I agree
with. Of course, if one feels that a particular address is unlikely to
be spoofed and wishes to whitelist it at their own risk, they have that
option as well.

-- 
   .__  .__  .__   _
_  |  | |  | |__| / \
\__  \ |  | |  | |  |/ __ \  /  \ /  \
 / __ \|  |_|  |_|  \  ___/ /Y\
(  ///__|\___  >\|__  /
 \/  \/_/   \/
-=-=-
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mary Bull]

Hello David!

On Saturday, February 26, 2005, 10:57 AM, you wrote:

 The perfect option will be a button or something to load the images of
 the current mail. And this should be made manually every time.
>>> That's what I suggested originally... And that works fine for me. (It's
>>> also the default way of operating in Thunderbird).
>> I would have no problem with that, provided it was not the default in
>> TB! That way I could ignore the option, since I don't need it.

> Exactly!  If you don't need the button, don't use it. :)

David, I want (just for my own sake, no one else's) the option to make
the button "Inactive."

Here's why:

I can't count the times that I inadvertently closed TB! while
intending only to minimize it. I have a left-right orientation
disability.

So now, I use the right-click (context) mouse button to get a menu
from the status bar and close it from there. For awhile I was exiting
from the File menu, but that wasn't as handy as closing from the task
bar.

I am afraid if that HTML "button" is active, I will inadvertently
click on it, and there will be something harmful in a message from my
OE/HTML sister, who is forever letting worms etc. onto her machine.

So I want the button to be unuseable, by default, unless the User
configures it to be useable.

>> And those who do need it could configure the "button" to be active.

> Umm, no.  I'd prefer if the button stay off with no option to force it
> on.  That way, if you want to view the HTML/remote Images you have to
> click the button for each and every message.  Especially since each
> message is different and you probably don't want it set to ON. :)

Yes. This is what I want, also.

Except, on the first download of a TB! version, I want the button to
be in an Inactive mode, responding neither to OFF nor to ON.

I would like, at the time of Install, to be asked whether I want that
button to work or not.

Would you have an objection to that?

>> Are we getting close to consensus here? If so, please meet me on TBOT
>> for some more savory pecan recipes. :)

> I really need to get some pecans and try that. :)

Bless you! Have you had time to do the sweet ones yet?

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat 3.0.2.10 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2







 Current beta is 3.0.9.1 Deep Alpha | 'Using TBBETA' information:
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mary Bull]

Hello Dennis!

On Saturday, February 26, 2005, 11:01 AM, you wrote:

>> Are we getting close to consensus here? ...

> TB!'s history has been one of penultimate user configuration. As long
> as the default is as Nancy Reagan waould say, "Just say No", then I
> wouldn't see why anyone would object. In this instance, the user puts
> himself/herself at risk, if wanted. I have no objection.

I am with you on this--provided that, in the context of my message to
David, just sent, at the time of Installation of a TB! version, I
would have the capability to make the button be completely disabled.

I would like to be able to protect myself from inadvertently pushing
it. :)

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat 3.0.2.10 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2







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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Mary Bull wrote:
>> Umm, no.  I'd prefer if the button stay off with no option to force it
>> on.  That way, if you want to view the HTML/remote Images you have to
>> click the button for each and every message.  Especially since each
>> message is different and you probably don't want it set to ON. :)
> Yes. This is what I want, also.
> Except, on the first download of a TB! version, I want the button to
> be in an Inactive mode, responding neither to OFF nor to ON.
> I would like, at the time of Install, to be asked whether I want that
> button to work or not.
> Would you have an objection to that?

That would be fine with me.  Even just a checkbox in the prefs to
enable/disable the button's fuctionality and include/remove it from the
toolbar would be fine with me.  In fact, it's a very good idea to make
it inactive completely unless someone wants to make it active.

The same goes for the whitelisting that was talked about.  Even TBird
includes an option to disable the ability to whitelist people in the
address book.   So no, I would have no objections to being able to turn
the fuction completely off.  It's a very good idea in fact.  I wouldn't
have expected them to include the ability without a way to disable it too.

>>> Are we getting close to consensus here? If so, please meet me on TBOT
>>> for some more savory pecan recipes. :)
>> I really need to get some pecans and try that. :)
> Bless you! Have you had time to do the sweet ones yet?

Not yet, haven't gotten my hands on any pecans to try any of the recipes
yet.  I'm trying to wait till I can get a big bag in bulk someplace as
most of what's readily available is the Planters kind.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
Member of E-mailaholics International
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Mary,

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:46:42 -0600 GMT (27/02/2005, 00:46 +0700 GMT),
Mary Bull wrote:

MB> I would like to be able to protect myself from inadvertently pushing
MB> it. :)

Just don't activate the option, and everything will be as it used to
be.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

"I have an excellent track record, although I am not a horse,"

Message reply created with The Bat! 3.0.2.10
under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600Service Pack 2




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Goncalo,

  A reminder of what Goncalo Farias on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 15:11:53 GMT +0100

GF> Is  it too much to have an option to enable full HTML support?

 I'm going to make one last comment on this subject. For years most people
 on this list have in the past voiced *very* strong opinions about keeping
 The Bat html free... Where are they all now? They've all jumped ship and
 are now sitting firmly on the fence and it appears, I am the only one who
 is keeping true to my original convictions.



-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Goncalo,

  A reminder of what Goncalo Farias on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 15:17:47 GMT +0100

GF> They  want  an enhanced version with what other clients have best, you
GF> seem to want a client tailored to your personal needs and tastes!

 Er no, I want The Bat as it is with all the bugs ironed out before any
 completely new untested extras are added.

 We've had this discussion in the past a dozen times, why add new things
 that will introduce a plethora of new bugs before the old ones are sorted?

 Let me just pitch one question and then I'll shut up.

 3 months time, The Bat has the best html engine of any email client
 available... Still no working flawless IMAP ability but great comic book
 features. Hands up all those who are going to be jumping for joy and hands
 up all those are *still* going to be using Thunderbird?


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Goncalo,

  A reminder of what Goncalo Farias on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 15:20:50 GMT +0100

GF> Users  like  you  are of big prejudice for business, scaring customers
GF> away!

 Boo!


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Goncalo,

  A reminder of what Goncalo Farias on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 15:26:05 GMT +0100

GF> Where is the moderator now?

 I was going to ask that quite a few messages ago but so far I've managed
 to keep my tongue very firmly bit.


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Thomas,

  A reminder of what Thomas Fernandez on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 16:36:49 GMT +0100

TF> I do not take well to nannying.

Mothering yes but Nannying no :)

On an off topic note, I watched a program about your neck of the woods
Thomas, not sure how close to it you are but there is an absolutely
fantastic nudist beach over there somewhere. Can't remember what it was
called now but it was on a proper travel program, not one of them sleazy
ones?


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Thomas,

  A reminder of what Thomas Fernandez on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 16:36:43 GMT +0100

TF> Same here. I joined this list in 1999, and I couldn't care less about
TF> HTML at the time. Times have changed.

 Turncoat :)


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Cees,

  A reminder of what Cees on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 21:10:10 GMT +0100

C> I'm on YOUR side.

 I know, and I thank you. Seems everyone else who used to share my opinion
 has abandoned a sinking ship.

 The irony of it is, in a few months time we'll all have great html
 support, IMAP still wont work but at least we'll be able to read comics.

 My Domain host now supports IMAP and I'd love to try it but I can't, not
 after all the nightmares Allie has had with The Bat and IMAP.

 And before anyone suggests I try Thunderbird, then, no thanks I'll stick
 with pop.


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Goncalo,

  A reminder of what Goncalo Farias on TBBETA typed on:
  26 February 2005 at 21:25:38 GMT +0100

GF> er.. ah, EVOLUTION!

 I think you'll find it's "oo ah Cantona" (:

 Seriously though, I don't care either way as long as this list don't get
 bombarded with floods of html. I know html isn't allowed on here but
 that's not going to stop people is it.


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org





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Re: html whitelist wish

[David Calvarese]

Tony Boom wrote:
> GF> They  want  an enhanced version with what other clients have best, you
> GF> seem to want a client tailored to your personal needs and tastes!
>  Er no, I want The Bat as it is with all the bugs ironed out before any
>  completely new untested extras are added.

I won't disagree with you there, the existing bugs and problems should
be fixed before they add remote image support.  I'd certainly want to
see flawless IMAP support and better support for GnuPG (Along the lines
of what Enigmail has) before messing with HTML.  But I DO think we
should get the HTML support after the bugs are fixed.

Even without full HTML support, when the GnuPG and IMAP problems get
fixed I'll be switching back to TB! from TBird.  Those are my two main
problems.  HTML, in my personal email, would be a plus but I can get
around it.  Since I use an IMAP email service, I can just load that
message up in the web interface (Yay Fastmail!) if I need to reply in
HTML for the moment.

-- 
Dave Calvarese
Member of E-mailaholics International
PGP Key Available at http://home.comcast.net/~dhcalva/DavidCalvarese-DH.asc


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Allie]

Hi Tony Boom,
 On 26/2/2005 3:12 PM, you wrote:

> 3 months time, The Bat has the best html engine of any email client
>  available... 

It will likely not have that. Not for a long time .. even if it is
planned.

> Still no working flawless IMAP ability but great
> comic book features. Hands up all those who are going to be jumping
> for joy and hands up all those are *still* going to be using
> Thunderbird?

I'll still be using ThunderBird if IMAP hasn't progressed. That's by
far, my main concern. I'm indifferent with HTML and have only
interjected since I see a weak argument speaking against it from a
security standpoint, and I can certainly sympathize with those who
want it, just as I want IMAP to work.

-- 
  _ _ _   __  __
 __ _| | (_)___  |  \/  |
/ _` | | | / -_) | |\/| |
\__,_|_|_|_\___|_|_|  |_|
  |___|
-=-=-
The wise open their minds, but a fool opens his mouth.


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Allie]

Hi Tony Boom,
 On 26/2/2005 3:03 PM, you wrote:

> I'm going to make one last comment on this subject. For years most
> people on this list have in the past voiced *very* strong opinions
> about keeping The Bat html free... Where are they all now? They've
> all jumped ship and are now sitting firmly on the fence and it
> appears, I am the only one who is keeping true to my original
> convictions.

I used to be one of them, but then I realize that it's pointless, that
times have changed, and it's IMO, more constructive to encourage good
 and secure implementation, rather than no implementation.

-- 
  _ _ _   __  __
 __ _| | (_)___  |  \/  |
/ _` | | | / -_) | |\/| |
\__,_|_|_|_\___|_|_|  |_|
  |___|
-=-=-
A cynic smells flowers and looks for the casket.


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Allie]

Hi Tony Boom,
 On 26/2/2005 3:50 PM, you wrote:

> Seriously though, I don't care either way as long as this list
> don't get bombarded with floods of html. I know html isn't allowed
> on here but that's not going to stop people is it.

TB! has been capable of constructing and sending HTML mail since many
versions ago. There are no such messages being sent here. Increasing
*readability* of HTML mail will not change this.

-- 
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mic Cullen]

At 20:12 [GMT+] on Saturday February 26 (actual time - 4:12am on Sunday in
Perth, Western Australia), you wrote:

>  3 months time, The Bat has the best html engine of any email client
>  available... Still no working flawless IMAP ability but great comic book
>  features.

As soon as you say really stupid things like "great comic book features", you
are simply demonstrating that you have no idea what people other than yourself
have to deal with on a daily basis. Just because it's an issue that you don't
run up against doesn't mean it's not something that actually happens, and to a
lot of users.

I'm all in favour of having Ritlabs finally fix some of the long-term bugs, but
that doesn't mean that the future can't be planned for or worked towards.

-- 

cheers, mic

"I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican 
friends...that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop 
telling the truth about them."
Adlai E. Stevenson Jr.



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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mic Cullen]

At 20:03 [GMT+] on Saturday February 26 (actual time - 4:03am on Sunday in
Perth, Western Australia), you wrote:

>  I'm going to make one last comment on this subject. For years most people
>  on this list have in the past voiced *very* strong opinions about keeping
>  The Bat html free... Where are they all now? They've all jumped ship and
>  are now sitting firmly on the fence and it appears, I am the only one who
>  is keeping true to my original convictions.

The world has changed, and "that's the way I like doing it because that's how
I've always done it" is utterly pointless when dealing with people who WON'T do
it that way and over whom you have no control, but are forced to deal with.

The world doesn't always work exactly how we want it to but that doesn't mean we
have the option of not dealing with it.

-- 

cheers, mic

"I'm a fuzzy-headed, warm-hearted liberal and I think fuzzy-headed, 
warm-hearted liberalism is an ideological stance that needs defending - if 
necessary, with a hob-nailed boot-kick to the bollocks of budding 
totalitarianism."
Charles Stross



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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mic Cullen]

At 19:44 [GMT-0500] on Saturday February 26 (actual time - 8:44am on Sunday in
Perth, Western Australia), you wrote:

GF>> And,  I  know  this is a pain in the arse, your signature delimiter is
GF>> non conformant with the list rules. They want it like '-- ' instead of
GF>> '--'.
> Strange that none of the moderators have indicated this..

That's irrelevant, it's in the list rules. And surely they can take SOME time
off, given how over-worked they are :-)

All you need to do is add a space after the two dashes and it'll work as it
should. "-- " rather than just "--".

-- 

cheers, mic

"Get a good idea and stay with it, and work it until it's done and done right."
Walt Disney (1901-1966) Film and theme park entrepreneur



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Re: html whitelist wish

[Leif Gregory]

Hi Tony,

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005, at 20:03:11 [GMT +] (which was 1:03 PM where
I live) you wrote:
TB> I'm going to make one last comment on this subject. For years most
TB> people on this list have in the past voiced *very* strong opinions
TB> about keeping The Bat html free... Where are they all now? They've
TB> all jumped ship and are now sitting firmly on the fence and it
TB> appears, I am the only one who is keeping true to my original
TB> convictions.

Nope. I still don't want HTML support either, I'm just tired of always
arguing about it.

It's just so unbelievably simple to double-click the HTML attachment
and bring it up in a browser that it's so completely beyond my
understanding why people are apparently to lazy to do it. That's what
browsers are designed to do.

Now, TB is a for profit application. That means their time is money
(whose isn't). We've had TB users in the past who were visually
disabled. If RITLabs is going to do HTML, then they gotta do it right
(to support them as well), that means TB *must* markup with at least
current WCAG 1.0 and Section 508 standards. That means it has to be
fully XHTML 1.0 compliant. That means RITLabs is going to be busy for
a very long time supporting all those standards (hey, I already know
how hard it is. One page took me a week to build). The only other
option is to put the onus on the user to write their own markup. That
way the user gets blamed for non-compliance rather than RITLabs. But,
then the whining starts about why they have to hand code their HTML.

XHTML, WCAG, CSS, Section 508 are moving targets. RITLabs is going to
be so busy trying to keep TB current to those standards, they might as
well write a dang browser instead of an e-mail client. TB is an
e-mail client. Let all the browsers worry about keeping current with
wildly out of control standards for XHTML, CSS, WCAG and Section 508.

I want e-mail not a webpage. And before anyone says I must not have to
deal with HTML e-mail, I do. I get catalog pages from ecost,
Sportsmans Guide, Codeproject, Orbitz, Wells Fargo Banking, and that's
just at home. I get tons of HTML e-mail from people I deal with at
work too. But I'm not too lazy to double-click an HTML attachment to
see the e-mail when I need to in an application designed to view HTML
markup, and can handle the current moving target standards.

Happy Tony? Now you drug me into this! :-)

-- 
Leif  -:-  TB Lists Moderator  -:-  PGP Key ID 0x7CD4926F

Tagline of the day:
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Tony,

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 20:22:58 + GMT (27/02/2005, 03:22 +0700 GMT),
Tony Boom wrote:

TF>> Same here. I joined this list in 1999, and I couldn't care less about
TF>> HTML at the time. Times have changed.

TB>  Turncoat :)

Call me that if you want.

Email was invented to be plain-text only. Do you remember the heaty
discussions when MIME-attachments were introduced? Now we all use
them, you sign your messages with PGP/MIME, screenshots arrive on
TBOT, and documents as attachments to email have become a necessity in
the office.

It is called progress.

HTML newsletters are the norm, this has nothing to do with comic
books. I gave the example of the Lufthansa newsletter for mileage card
members earlier. They are well designed and hey, they are a marketing
tool so it is not the plain information but also the presentation that
counts. If you yourself prefer double-clicking on the attachment icon
(don't see how that improves security, though), you won't need to
whitelist that newsletter. I have wants and needs different from
yours, and someone mentioned that in his work, reading the HTML mail
as intended is a need and not merely a want for him.

And no, nobody wants to assign a higher priority to this than to
bug-fixing, especially IMAP support. We are only trying to get to a
consensus for the future, as you were so proud that TB does not
support downloading the images and many people here see that as a
disadvantage rather than the reason to buy TB in the first place. ;-)


-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

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Re: html whitelist wish

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hello Leif,

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:05:26 -0700 GMT (27/02/2005, 08:05 +0700 GMT),
Leif Gregory wrote:

LG> Now, TB is a for profit application. That means their time is money
LG> (whose isn't). We've had TB users in the past who were visually
LG> disabled.

I thinnk most have left, because we don't even get replies to
http://www.ritlabs.com/bt/bug_view_advanced_page.php?bug_id=0001762

LG> If RITLabs is going to do HTML, then they gotta do it right
LG> (to support them as well), that means TB *must* markup with at least
LG> current WCAG 1.0 and Section 508 standards.

You are saying that it will be technically difficult to implement
correct HTML rendering, and I don't doubt it. However, Tony says it;'s
wrong from a philosophical / political POV to introduce correct
renedering to TB. I see a difference here.

LG> I want e-mail not a webpage. And before anyone says I must not have to
LG> deal with HTML e-mail, I do. I get catalog pages from ecost,
LG> Sportsmans Guide, Codeproject, Orbitz, Wells Fargo Banking, and that's
LG> just at home. I get tons of HTML e-mail from people I deal with at
LG> work too. But I'm not too lazy to double-click an HTML attachment to
LG> see the e-mail when I need to in an application designed to view HTML
LG> markup, and can handle the current moving target standards.

That's OK, it's your choice. TB lacking this and having to open the
browser is certainly bad for marketing, though. You mentioned above
that Ritlabs is a for-profit organisation.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas.

It's paradoxical that the idea of living a long life appeals to
everyone, but the idea of getting old doesn't appeal to anyone.  --
Andy Rooney

Message reply created with The Bat! 3.0.2.10
under Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600Service Pack 2




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Greg Strong]

Hello Leif,

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 18:05:26 -0700 GMT(2/26/2005, 7:05 PM -0600 GMT), 
per mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Leif Gregory wrote:

> Nope. I still don't want HTML support either, I'm just tired of always
> arguing about it.

This thread is really about opinions. Everyone has one. :-)

...


> Now, TB is a for profit application.

This is a very important point which should not be lost in the debate
about opinions.


> XHTML, WCAG, CSS, Section 508 are moving targets.

Isn't most of the software / IT market a moving target?  :-)


> I want e-mail not a webpage.

Don't you really want your email client to be just text based? What
about the users who want HTML in their email?

Why do I ask these questions? Well to be honest I am trying to make
people think, and it really comes down to my opinion. I want TB to
implement HTML email provided it is an option with the default off. I
don't want to get into the various ways of implementing the option.
Just so people have a choice which continues to support the security
characteristic of TB. So people can jump all over me, and I could care
less.

Personally I read only text based email at home for 2 reasons. First,
I would rather read text email, and second for security reasons. I
understand your position to use a browser for HTML email when using
TB. It is a good position. :-)

I use TB for my personal email client. I don't plan on changing unless
I have a pressing need to use IMAP, and TB has NOT cleaned up the
significant issues. So why am I for increased HTML capabilities in TB?
Without knowing the market statistics / trends on email clients AND
the current profitability of RIT, I am on record of my opinion for
selfish reasons. I want TB to continue to be a viable product.

My thinking is that by incorporating better HTML capabilities that RIT
would be able to expand their market share. The relevant question here
is what would RIT's margins be? IOW would RIT's increased revenue pay
back the investment into the increased HTML capabilities. Don't read
more into my words than what is in text. Business starts with revenue.
If you don't have revenue, the expenses are academic and soon
non-existent. For all I know Stefan and Max have I nice nest egg
stashed away for all of the work.

...

I use to use Virtual Access (OLR) which was a very good text based
email client. I could use it to do email, newsgroups, and CIS.
Everything all in one without having to add additional software /
plugins. If development would not have ceased I would still be using
VA today. Because of the VA situation I moved on to TB for email, and
use Agent for newsgroups. I am no longer a member of CIS, and believe
the older technology is no longer provided. Funny thing is Agent is
still trying to implement features in version 2 promised years ago. I
have yet to upgrade.

IMHO VA died because the owners did not MARKET their product
appropriately. IIRC they provided it free with bannerware. The user
could purchase the license and remove the advertising for a relatively
small price. In my opinion this approach to the market created an
image of lesser quality. Now without having access to the books my
guess is VA had revenue problems which could not sustain the
development costs.

Being a user of technology both professionally and personally for
many years the ONLY one sure guarantee in the technology market is
CHANGE. Businesses in this market need to CHANGE with the market.

-- 
Best Regards,
Greg Strong 

Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Tony Boom]

Hello Leif,

  A reminder of what Leif Gregory on TBBETA typed on:
  27 February 2005 at 02:10:08 GMT +0100

LG> Happy Tony? Now you drug me into this!

 I've bowed out of it as gracefully as I could now. No one came up with any
 new convincing reasons for html so it got boring.

 Anyway, I didn't have to drug you to get you to make a comment, your own
 conscience done that for me :)


-- 
Tony.
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10
  
 :gentoo:
   www.gentoo.org




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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mic Cullen]

At 11:03 [GMT-0500] on Friday February 25 (actual time - 12:03am on Saturday in
Perth, Western Australia), you wrote:

> A 1600x1200 picture reduced to 320x240 for viewing in a newsletter
> will look worse than the same picture taken at 640x480. Why waste the
> resources for an inferior product?

If you have even a vague clue as to what you are doing, that statement is
utterly false.

-- 

cheers, mic

"There are painters who transform the sun to a yellow spot, but there are 
others who with the help of their art and their intelligence, transform a 
yellow spot into the sun."
Pablo Picasso



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Re: html whitelist wish

[MAU]

Hello Greg,

> If development would not have ceased I would still be using VA today.

:-)

> Because of the VA situation I moved on to TB for email, and use Agent
> for newsgroups.

Why don't you use TB for newsgroups also? Works beautifully with MyGate.

-- 
Best regards,

Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain)
Using The Bat! v3.0.2.10 on Windows 2000 5.0 Service Pack 4






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Re: html whitelist wish

[Allie]

Hi Paul,
 On 27/2/2005 6:21 AM, you wrote:

> Very well said!

Yeah. A good technical argument rather than all the other
philosophical and hyped ones that I had seen until then.

OTOH, one wonders, why implement anything at all then if we look at it
in that depressingly unsurmountable all-or-none fashion. The original
request was about retrieving images on a per message basis with the
ability to configure such behaviour. Now it has gone into TB! being
able to render and display everything a browser can, now, and for the
future.

I certainly consider both different.

I don't care much for image retrieval personally. I'd sure wish IMAP
to work first before such things are implemented. If it is, and is
configurable, I'd be indifferent. I doubt it will be though. At least
not for the foreseeable future. Most clients with very good HTML mail
displaying capabilities either use the IE rendering engine or are part
of an established browser, i.e., Operamail or Mozilla/ThunderBird.

-- 
  _ _ _   __  __
 __ _| | (_)___  |  \/  |
/ _` | | | / -_) | |\/| |
\__,_|_|_|_\___|_|_|  |_|
  |___|
-=-=-
Some nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men


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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mary Bull]

Hello NetVicious!

On Sunday, February 27, 2005, 2:55 AM, you wrote:

>> That would be fine with me.  Even just a checkbox in the prefs to
>> enable/disable the button's fuctionality and include/remove it from the
>> toolbar would be fine with me.  In fact, it's a very good idea to make
>> it inactive completely unless someone wants to make it active.

> What about a messagebox with a confirmation as TB does now when trying
> to open an attachment?

The quoted text to which you are replying was in reply to my comment
that I wished (felt I needed) to be able to have the functionality
completely disabled. If a warning box is all that I get, the situation
would be an unwieldy one for me.

And for those who have been most clear (at least two or three people
posting to this thread) that the current work-around to graphic image
display is too slow for them, the warning box would function as an
extra slow-down.

If, and when, this capability is implemented by the developers, I hope
it will be disabled by Default and the User will first have to enable
it before the capability (button or menu or shortcut or whatever)
becomes active.

This is so that I can protect myself from inadvertently putting a
graphics image into a message-text bodyin the View Folder window.

I am just one old-lady user. But I think perhaps there are others with
my needs using TB!, or out there as potential users, and it would be
so simple to respect this need of mine by having the capability OFF by
Default.

I have, in the past, actually been distracted and clicked Send, on the
warning box that comes before a message is Sent, without intending to.
At a computer screen, even the best of us make mistakes, I think. I'd
like for the individual user to be able to choose, in regard to this
particular functionality, the amount of risk for mistakes that the
user is comfortable with.

Note, however, that I do not object to others accepting more risk than
I do. :)

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat 3.0.2.10 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2







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Re: html whitelist wish

[Mary Bull]

Hello Paul!

On Sunday, February 27, 2005, 7:26 AM, you wrote:

MB>> Note, however, that I do not object to others accepting more risk than
MB>> I do. :)

> Agreed. Gee-whiz functionality at the expense of privacy and security
> is too high of a price for me to pay. I do object to others taking
> risks if doing so has an impact on others. Irresponsibility begins as
> soon we allow our actions to negatively affect someone else.

Thank you for expanding my thought. I agree completely with your last
sentence. This all comes down to looking out for our neighbors as well
as ourselves. Here, as in so many parts of our lives, it's a judgment
call on the priorities. Sometimes compromises are necessary, when not
negatively affecting one neighbor will result in negatively affecting
another.

I like the words of the old Hypocratic oath: First, do no harm.

One can at least strive for that.

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat 3.0.2.10 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2







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Re: html whitelist wish

[Leif Gregory]

Hi Allie,

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005, at 07:07:44 [GMT -0500] (which was 5:07 AM where
I live) you wrote:
A> Yeah. A good technical argument rather than all the other
A> philosophical and hyped ones that I had seen until then.

Well, philosophically, I don't want it either! 

A> OTOH, one wonders, why implement anything at all then if we look at
A> it in that depressingly unsurmountable all-or-none fashion.

If it's an e-mail function, then go for it. I'd just much rather have
RITLabs sink 200 hours into IMAP rather than HTML functionality. IMAP
belongs to e-mail, HTML doesn't.

A> The original request was about retrieving images on a per message
A> basis with the ability to configure such behaviour. Now it has gone
A> into TB! being able to render and display everything a browser can,
A> now, and for the future.

It would have gone there anyway. First getting images displayed, and
then getting HTML e-mail to display the way the author intended it
(we've already seen those requests), and then we can't just have half
the equation, people will want the ability to generate HTML e-mail
(they already can to a certain degree), and if we do that, not only
does TB have to be able to display HTML according to standards, but
it's got to be able to write it too. Look at all the WYSIWYG editors
that already exist that are solely for the purpose of HTML editing. If
they can't get it right, how is RITLabs going to get it right without
dedicating ungodly hours to it. Hours which could be spent on IMAP,
plugin API etc. I remember saying ages ago, that I would like to see
the plugin API really fleshed out, and then people could write an HTML
plugin if they wanted.

A> Most clients with very good HTML mail displaying capabilities
A> either use the IE rendering engine or are part of an established
A> browser, i.e., Operamail or Mozilla/ThunderBird.

Exactly Tie in to the crippled and immensely vulnerable IE which
to RITLabs everlasting credit, did *not* do. Or write their own. They
wrote their own, and that means if they are going to do it right in
TB, then there will be a BatWeb browser product on the market soon
enough. I don't need another browser. There's a whole boatload of them
to choose from. What I want is a really good e-mail program that
isn't interested in trying to be the alpha and the omega!



-- 
Leif  -:-  TB Lists Moderator  -:-  PGP Key ID 0x7CD4926F

Tagline of the day:
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Re: html whitelist wish

[Krzysztof Trybowski]

Hello Tony,
On Saturday, February 26, 2005 you wrote:

>  3 months time, The Bat has the best html engine of any email client
>  available... Still no working flawless IMAP ability but great comic book
>  features. Hands up all those who are going to be jumping for joy and hands
>  up all those are *still* going to be using Thunderbird?

You  know  this is not gonna happen. Why don't you just try to look at
the  case  in  a  sensible  way, and not exaggerate it in all possible
directions?

Nobody  wrote they wanted RIT to drop everything (especially IMAP, but
you could place anything instead) and focus on a browser engine better
than Gecko (would take more than 3 months anyway).

This  topic  is  not  about  HTML  support,  but about external images
downloading.  Except it is linked with HTML it has nothing to it. It's
more about http.

External  images  downloading  is  NOT  about comic book. With as much
right  I  could  say,  that  your IMAP support is just for you to play
after  work,  and as such doesn't require much attention nor priority.
Technical  tools are just that -- tools. You can use them in different
ways.  The  same  applies  to external images downloading -- it can be
useful in everyday _*WORK*_.

And  Ritlabs  said many times, that different people work on different
areas.  I wouldn't be afraid that everything else would get dumped. Of
course  *some*  resources  would  have  to  be  spent  on  the feature
discussed,  but I believe that only to a sensible extent, and it would
benefit  many users. After all there *is* a reason why this discussion
comes back again and again.

Regards,

-- 
 / Krzysztof Trybowski  pgp 0xE0F7733B  /--/  To get my pgp key, put  /
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