subject:"Re\: \[Vo\]\:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog"

You must have made a bet to make some BIG money; possibly  a strategy to
increase your odds? I doubt that you are interested in the poor and dirty
masses.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:16 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 More than 768 million people are currently without access 
 tohttp://www.unicefusa.org/work/water/ safe,
 clean, drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper
 sanitation. This kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to UNICEF.

 Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an
 incredible bonanza for desalination.

 If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they should
 patent their process, and disclose it to the world.

 They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity alone.
   They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where does this thinking come from. Surely it must be your imagination or
 is it a gambit to lay some more disrespect onto John H and Defkalion. You
 know nothing about the issues you misrepresent. So there must be some
 nefarious motive festering behind your words.



 Your words betray your own values and tendencies so keep them close and
 quite to advance your best interests.




 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean
 water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing
 games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent
 the thing and make money from that.

 You call that Noble?


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a time
 not long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite  the
 offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake of his
 honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of conduct,
 his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully
 upon calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has
 stated it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even
 replace facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a
 fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread David Roberson


Blaze,

How many business establishments are you aware of that have given up the 
opportunity to make a fortune in order to possibly save others of an unknown 
nature?  Both of these companies are working hard to be first to the market in 
volume and that is about as good as they can do.

First to volume production might well be the only one of these two that is 
successful in this race.  So much depends upon how rapidly the market takes 
off.  We will be fortunate if the demand starts high and ramps up from there, 
which is what I suspect.  Rossi and DGT might not be so optimistic.

It is my hope that the pricing for these devices will be low enough to make 
their usage a no brainer.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Aug 3, 2013 2:16 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog



More than 768 million people are currently without access to safe, clean, 
drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper sanitation. This 
kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to UNICEF.


Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an 
incredible bonanza for desalination.


If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they should patent 
their process, and disclose it to the world.


They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity alone.   
They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.



On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:


Where does this thinking come from. Surelyit must be your imagination or is it 
a gambit to lay some more disrespect ontoJohn H and Defkalion. You know nothing 
about the issues you misrepresent. So theremust be some nefarious motive 
festering behind your words.
 
Your words betray your own values andtendencies so keep them close and quite to 
advance your best interests.
 





On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean water.  
 Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing games because 
they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent the thing and make 
money from that.


You call that Noble?



On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:


To some men, their word is their bond.Honor is all. There was a time not long 
ago that when a man’s word wasquestioned, he would invite  the offender into 
the street and put a bullet in hisbrain for the sake of his honor. When you 
question a man’s honor, you question hiscode of conduct, his ethics, his 
values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully uponcalling a good and 
noble man a liar.





On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated it in 
public and without reservation.




On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:




There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace facts 
that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.
Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.



Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a fact?


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

You implore a company to give their product away and in the next breath,
you make fun of them. That is not a effective way to advance your request.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:23 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 I will say one thing about John though, he writes Sci Fi.  That's cool and
 I could see the possibility that he's secretly been thinking about all of
 this in his spare time.


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 More than 768 million people are currently without access 
 tohttp://www.unicefusa.org/work/water/ safe,
 clean, drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper
 sanitation. This kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to UNICEF.

 Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an
 incredible bonanza for desalination.

 If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they should
 patent their process, and disclose it to the world.

 They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity alone.
   They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where does this thinking come from. Surely it must be your imagination
 or is it a gambit to lay some more disrespect onto John H and Defkalion.
 You know nothing about the issues you misrepresent. So there must be some
 nefarious motive festering behind your words.



 Your words betray your own values and tendencies so keep them close and
 quite to advance your best interests.




 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean
 water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing
 games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent
 the thing and make money from that.

 You call that Noble?


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a time
 not long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite  the
 offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake of his
 honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of conduct,
 his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully
 upon calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has
 stated it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker 
 eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.comwrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even
 replace facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a
 fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread David Roberson


Axil,

Blaze might just be having fun pulling your chain.

Dave


-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sat, Aug 3, 2013 2:37 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog


You implore a company to give their product away and in the next breath, you 
make fun of them. That is not a effective way to advance your request.



On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:23 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com 
wrote:

I will say one thing about John though, he writes Sci Fi.  That's cool and I 
could see the possibility that he's secretly been thinking about all of this in 
his spare time.



On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com 
wrote:


More than 768 million people are currently without access to safe, clean, 
drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper sanitation. This 
kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to UNICEF.


Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an 
incredible bonanza for desalination.


If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they should patent 
their process, and disclose it to the world.


They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity alone.   
They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.




On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:


Where does this thinking come from. Surelyit must be your imagination or is it 
a gambit to lay some more disrespect ontoJohn H and Defkalion. You know nothing 
about the issues you misrepresent. So theremust be some nefarious motive 
festering behind your words.
 
Your words betray your own values andtendencies so keep them close and quite to 
advance your best interests.
 





On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean water.  
 Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing games because 
they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent the thing and make 
money from that.


You call that Noble?



On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:


To some men, their word is their bond.Honor is all. There was a time not long 
ago that when a man’s word wasquestioned, he would invite  the offender into 
the street and put a bullet in hisbrain for the sake of his honor. When you 
question a man’s honor, you question hiscode of conduct, his ethics, his 
values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully uponcalling a good and 
noble man a liar.





On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated it in 
public and without reservation.




On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:




There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace facts 
that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.
Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.



Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a fact?


Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

You should do more reading and less taking. You do not know let alone
understand Defkelions business plan. They are an RD company who support
the various implementation of their various systems.

But this factoid matters little when your intent is to lay yet another
cheap shot onto Defkalion and John H.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:23 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 I will say one thing about John though, he writes Sci Fi.  That's cool and
 I could see the possibility that he's secretly been thinking about all of
 this in his spare time.


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 More than 768 million people are currently without access 
 tohttp://www.unicefusa.org/work/water/ safe,
 clean, drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper
 sanitation. This kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to UNICEF.

 Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an
 incredible bonanza for desalination.

 If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they should
 patent their process, and disclose it to the world.

 They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity alone.
   They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where does this thinking come from. Surely it must be your imagination
 or is it a gambit to lay some more disrespect onto John H and Defkalion.
 You know nothing about the issues you misrepresent. So there must be some
 nefarious motive festering behind your words.



 Your words betray your own values and tendencies so keep them close and
 quite to advance your best interests.




 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean
 water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing
 games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent
 the thing and make money from that.

 You call that Noble?


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a time
 not long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite  the
 offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake of his
 honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of conduct,
 his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully
 upon calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has
 stated it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker 
 eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.comwrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even
 replace facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a
 fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Well I can tell you he is not making friends and influencing people.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:40 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

 Axil,

 Blaze might just be having fun pulling your chain.

 Dave
  -Original Message-
 From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
 To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
 Sent: Sat, Aug 3, 2013 2:37 am
 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

  You implore a company to give their product away and in the next breath,
 you make fun of them. That is not a effective way to advance your request.


  On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:23 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 I will say one thing about John though, he writes Sci Fi.  That's cool
 and I could see the possibility that he's secretly been thinking about all
 of this in his spare time.


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

  More than 768 million people are currently without access 
 tohttp://www.unicefusa.org/work/water/ safe,
 clean, drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper
 sanitation. This kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to UNICEF.

  Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an
 incredible bonanza for desalination.

  If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they
 should patent their process, and disclose it to the world.

  They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity
 alone.   They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

   On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

  Where does this thinking come from. Surely it must be your
 imagination or is it a gambit to lay some more disrespect onto John H and
 Defkalion. You know nothing about the issues you misrepresent. So there
 must be some nefarious motive festering behind your words.

  Your words betray your own values and tendencies so keep them close
 and quite to advance your best interests.



 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to
 clean water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is
 playing games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to
 patent the thing and make money from that.

  You call that Noble?


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

  To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a
 time not long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite
  the offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake 
 of
 his honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of
 conduct, his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think
 carefully upon calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has
 stated it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker 
 eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

  On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.comwrote:

  There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even
 replace facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.
 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a
 fact?

  Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

All the isotopes that work have 0 spin(high PNC) and the ones that don't
have non zero spin(low PNC).

Look up parody non conservation(PNC) in nuclear theory to understand why
this is important in the LENR reaction.

PS- and important clue that you don't want to believe in.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:36 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

  There must be an underlying psychological reason for thinking this way
 because it is not based on logic or experience; a prejudice in judgment or
 a unfounded distaste may be at play. Both Rossi and Defkalion have released
 this isotopic dependency in their technical papers and patents.



 What basic can support as judgment of red herring. Clearly it is not a
 scientific or logical one.



 Can you explain the reasoning behind this surprising pronouncement?


 I think this is a valid request.  I will try my best.  Hopefully you will
 do the same for my questions.

 The reason I suspect that it is a red herring (which is different than
 pronouncing it a red herring) is that to the best of my knowledge different
 isotopes of nickel have the same charge and electron densities.  I suspect
 that electron screening may be at play in increasing the rate of p+d
 tunneling.  Different numbers of neutrons would have no effect in this
 instance, to my knowledge.

 This huch may well be incorrect.  But it is logical, in the sense that it
 uses logical reasoning to connect the topic of isotopes of nickel back to
 other things that have been discussed, by saying that the the topic may be
 irrelevant to what we're looking at here for reasons A an B.  That there
 were details about isotopes mentioned in patents doesn't mean much to me,
 because I've seen some weird patents, and people seem to be willing to drop
 all kinds of details into them.

 On the other hand, the question of nickel isotopes may be relevant.  The
 reason I say I doubt there is an isotope effect is because I don't know for
 sure and don't have a strong opinion.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread blaze spinnaker

Hey, I like Sci Fi.   Why do you think that's making fun of them?

My point is, if they're real and 'Noble', they'd patent their work and
disclose it.   They'd still be very right.

The fact is, they didn't invest zillions of dollars here doing RD.  Nor
was it exactly John Hadjichristo's life's work.They could go to market
with what they have (if they have anything) and still get rich.

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:37 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 You implore a company to give their product away and in the next breath,
 you make fun of them. That is not a effective way to advance your request.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:23 AM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 I will say one thing about John though, he writes Sci Fi.  That's cool
 and I could see the possibility that he's secretly been thinking about all
 of this in his spare time.


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

 More than 768 million people are currently without access 
 tohttp://www.unicefusa.org/work/water/ safe,
 clean, drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper
 sanitation. This kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to UNICEF.

 Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an
 incredible bonanza for desalination.

 If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they should
 patent their process, and disclose it to the world.

 They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity
 alone.   They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where does this thinking come from. Surely it must be your imagination
 or is it a gambit to lay some more disrespect onto John H and Defkalion.
 You know nothing about the issues you misrepresent. So there must be some
 nefarious motive festering behind your words.



 Your words betray your own values and tendencies so keep them close and
 quite to advance your best interests.




 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to
 clean water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is
 playing games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to
 patent the thing and make money from that.

 You call that Noble?


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a time
 not long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite  the
 offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake of 
 his
 honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of conduct,
 his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully
 upon calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has
 stated it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker 
 eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.comwrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even
 replace facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a
 fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I am sure that if your advice is the best policy for them, they will take
your advice.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 3:09 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hey, I like Sci Fi.   Why do you think that's making fun of them?

 My point is, if they're real and 'Noble', they'd patent their work and
 disclose it.   They'd still be very right.

 The fact is, they didn't invest zillions of dollars here doing RD.  Nor
 was it exactly John Hadjichristo's life's work.They could go to market
 with what they have (if they have anything) and still get rich.


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:37 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 You implore a company to give their product away and in the next breath,
 you make fun of them. That is not a effective way to advance your request.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:23 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 I will say one thing about John though, he writes Sci Fi.  That's cool
 and I could see the possibility that he's secretly been thinking about all
 of this in his spare time.


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:16 PM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

 More than 768 million people are currently without access 
 tohttp://www.unicefusa.org/work/water/ safe,
 clean, drinking water, and 2.5 billion people live without proper
 sanitation. This kills nearly 4,000 children each day, according to 
 UNICEF.

 Something which can generate cheap, excess thermal energy could be an
 incredible bonanza for desalination.

 If Rossi or Defkalion have any sort of knowledge about this, they
 should patent their process, and disclose it to the world.

 They should then go public, they'd make millions from their equity
 alone.   They'd all be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Where does this thinking come from. Surely it must be your imagination
 or is it a gambit to lay some more disrespect onto John H and Defkalion.
 You know nothing about the issues you misrepresent. So there must be some
 nefarious motive festering behind your words.



 Your words betray your own values and tendencies so keep them close
 and quite to advance your best interests.




 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to
 clean water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is
 playing games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try 
 to
 patent the thing and make money from that.

 You call that Noble?


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.comwrote:

 To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a
 time not long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite
  the offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the 
 sake of
 his honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of
 conduct, his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think
 carefully upon calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.comwrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has
 stated it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.comwrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even
 replace facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a
 fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread Alain Sepeda

All that thread seems based on misconception, misunderstanding, as it is
often when reasonable people argue for long and cannot reconcile their
position...

First of all I disagree with you position of belief, I'm french, not
american, so it is a bit cultural... I suspect that you trust , like I'm
convinced, based on rational intuition .
My experience in corporate life and science controversies, is that
intuition is often better than rationalization when the problem is complex.

rationalization often is the best way to forget half of the equation,
especially the humans/social/political factors. That is also how
nay-believers works to build their delusion... left-brain anosognosia and
unilateral negligence.

First from my research about that tragedy, it became clear that the
scientific method is a myth,
If you follow the ideas of Nassim Nicholas Taleb, of Thomas Kuhn, of
Norbert Alter, and that thesis
http://fr.slideshare.net/hervelegenvre/thesis-history-of-inventors?from_search=4
(french
english)

you see that innovation does not work a rational way, and not according to
the official way. Human factor is dominant, and theory have to be ignored.

I agree with Jed that DGT bring no scientific evidence against fraud.
anyway when you see how science treated the strong scientific evidence
before you can dump that concept in the toilet of history. no less, and
without any pity, like a broken appliance that cannot be repaired. there is
no hope, no excuse.We have given too many chance to that myth.

The way Defkalion behave annoyed me, but unless Jed i'm not surprised.
DGT was under siege by skeptics, probably by authorities, by partners, by
big organizations doing test. When corp panic, they get silent.

DGT anyway was surprisingly transparent, compared to what my corp
experience see usually, but with a delay... they admitted endurance
problems, told their version of stremmenos/rossi story, described their
technology.


When I say I'm confident about Defkalion, it is not that I'm sure of all
they say.
First reason is that they can make mistake, but I expect that they have
checked many time before talking... so if they made errors, it is a
persistent artifact, not an online-science artifact (no critic, rules are
different with online-science, 1=0 as says peter)...

Among their extraordinary claims, like Ni isotopes, and magnetic fields, I
don't see the rationality in throwing red-herring... this is hugely
dangerous, and bring no advantage compared to classic red-herring (we have
small result, we have huge result...)...
Error are improbable since it can be easily tested (you can buy Ni
isotopes, and magnetic probes are common).

I suspect rather that like Rossi, they understate they performance, and/or
their problems...
Hyperion seems to have a potential of COP100, and the modest COP of US
test seemed designed to show less that the maximum.
They have admitted some endurance problems, claimed  it is solved, but
since their test are short I cannot rule out there are still
endurance/leaking problems, for sparc plug, for the fuel, the bottle, the
reactor...



Jed is right isn saying that they might have an impolite strategy of
communication... sending hope, getting silent, avoiding definitive
evidences...
All seems incoherent and it is probably so.
This is typical of a, executive board which is under influence of power
battle and environment constraints (partners, clients, authorities, who
impose their will)...

About some claims that concern external parties (greek government,
companies, testers), you can suspect that NDA agreements (where Defkalion
is the victim, because smaller), and assymetry of power (without NDA, a big
corp can menace a company to death uless it's will is repected)...
Another problem is that some claims are chatting claims, and more the
symptom of enthusisat and uncontrolled communicatioon... in in that cas
when the executive board moan agains such leaks, they simply asl for
silence.

The only coherent hypothesis I've heard here is that they are preparing a
complex D-Day debarkation plan, to avoid a big communication mistake like
FP tragedy, leasding to a fast closing of the story with decades to escape
from the public ban.
Not sure it is so rational, but i would advice to Defkalion to consider
that scenario, and prepare a serious debarkation plan, not an incoherent
serie of action consequence of external influence, and internal battles...


finally, as you can read, unlike many people, unlike the scientific method
rules, I don't talk of scientific evidences... Best way to be fooled as
experience shows.

The rule of the game is corporate rule, it is psychiatry, it is market, it
is politics, it is business...

so to summarize my position...
I rule-out fraud.
I suspect some undersetimation of performance, and to a lesser way
underestimation of industrialization problems.
Scientific errors are still possible, but improbable.
Red-herring are hard to believes...
Their messy communication is probably

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread Daniel Rocha

Peter,

While I agree that this is not a finished product, there are dangerous
obstacles that are of political nature, even putting aside all monetary
issues related to Defkalion. This is a product that will mess up with many
powerful entities and an unfinished product will not help anyone.

And, please, be sure to notice there are many strategic, non trivial,
reasons behind the companies decisions and, concerning Defkalion's
personnel,  it doesn't specially reflect anyone's specific political view
on society.


2013/8/3 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com

 This is not the Salk vaccine it is not a finished product, R  D needs
 great money. Welfare does not work, socialism does not work, this is the
 standard capitalism method, the unique effective and efficient one.
 What do you think about Google, Apple, or any other successful company?
 We live in a moneytheistic society.
 Peter


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread Daniel Rocha

You cannot say what they have and neither that they are not concerned with
peoples lives. You cannot even say that Defkalions product would soon save
peoples lives with desalination methods, since their lack of potable water
are also related to completely different political reasons.


2013/8/3 blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com

 The fact is, they didn't invest zillions of dollars here doing RD.  Nor
 was it exactly John Hadjichristo's life's work.They could go to market
 with what they have (if they have anything) and still get rich.


 --
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread Terry Blanton

On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 2:27 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:



Any bolts, or other steel pieces nearby would be drawn to the box and I
 find it difficult to believe that this would not be detected.


Nearby has to be very nearby.  I have worked with many N45 NeFeB magnets
(1.25 T), some of significant size, and we rarely saw things jump off the
table.  You have to be pretty close to attract even another magnet.  The
force falls off rapidly.  Here's a calculator:

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/calculator.asp?calcType=block

Convince yourself.

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-03 Thread Eric Walker

On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:04 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

All the isotopes that work have 0 spin(high PNC) and the ones that don't
 have non zero spin(low PNC).

 Look up parody non conservation(PNC) in nuclear theory to understand why
 this is important in the LENR reaction.

 PS- and important clue that you don't want to believe in.


I am open to entertaining the thought that this is an important clue.  I
only ask you to justify this assertion with reasoned argument.  A suitable
justification would refer to premises that we can all agree on.  Walk me
through your reasoning to help me to agree with you on the premises.  I am
willing to learn as I go.

A start might be for you to explain how parity conservation relates to
Defkalion's device.  You would give an answer, and I would query the
details.  It would be a little boring, and you would have to spell things
out in great detail, because I am a beginner and have little knowledge of
these things.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:03 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

  The harm is not they don't meet expectations. The harm is that they
 provide no explanation whenever they fail to meet expectations.
 Playing with people's emotions is not harmless game.


 Personally, I do not mind unguarded statements about what a company is
 going to deliver. If it turns out not to happen, I chalk that up to
 flamboyance, wishful thinking and trying to bring something about, almost
 as if by conjuring it up by saying it.



I don't care  about commericial claims either, however on two occasions
they have created expectations that independent assessments of their
technology were forthcoming by a certain date. The date passed and no
reports emerged and no explanation was given. Just silence.

harry



 My main objection is to anything that is relevant here is to the
 possibility of misdirection.  I kind of want to say that misdirection is a
 different beast than fraud.  Misdirection has overtones of manipulation,
 and fraud has clear legal and ethical implications.  And I don't say that
 Defkalion are guilty of misdirection.  I only say the possibility has
 occurred to me on more than one occasion for one reason or another.  The
 thought has occurred to me in connection with Rossi as well.  I'm reminded
 of the Wild West in the U.S., when people did all kinds of funny things, or
 of the wheelers and dealers in turn of the century New York City.  It's
 just a feeling that you have to keep your eyes open and not let yourself be
 hoodwinked.

 Commercial entities in the LENR space have control over how much they
 provoke this reaction in people.  In me, it has not yet caused me to wonder
 whether they have a process that is basically working, only whether a
 straight account of what they've learned has been given.  But for some
 other people that we know, it can turn a person into a full-on critic or an
 opponent.  This is the kind of thing that Feynman was probably reacting to
 with Papp, who we all know was a colorful character.  It is a reaction that
 is largely avoidable, and companies should consider taking steps to
 mitigate it by assuming observers are intelligent and will identify any
 gimmicks or shortcuts or weird details.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 5:28 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:


 Creating expectations which you fail to meet to _without explanation_ is
 also bad public relations.

 It is bad because they have insulted the public.


 Yes, and yes. But Defkalion has only amateur status when it comes
 insulting the public and infuriating investors. Read a biography of Edison,
 Steve Jobs, Leland Stanford, or a 19th century Robber Baron and you will
 see how it is REALLY done, by a world-class maestro. Actually, I have to
 say, Rossi fits the classic mold better than the people at Defkalion.

 The thing is, if you want to do something that is close to impossible, and
 that will change the world and infuriate many powerful people, you have be
 ruthless and focused on yourself and your goals. You have to be a
 monomaniac with psychopathic tendencies. You have to put your mission ahead
 of all else in life. As Steve Jobs said shortly before he died, I have not
 been easy to live with. No indeed; his type never is.

 - Jed


Rest in turmoil Steve Jobs.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:25 PM, DJ Cravens djcrav...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I doubt that isotopically enriched material (other than perhaps H 2) is
 needed.
 In the real world, you just make your sample larger.


I doubt there is much if any of an isotope effect.  This one says to me,
red herring.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 2:39 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:03 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

  The harm is not they don't meet expectations. The harm is that they
 provide no explanation whenever they fail to meet expectations.
 Playing with people's emotions is not harmless game.


 Personally, I do not mind unguarded statements about what a company is
 going to deliver. If it turns out not to happen, I chalk that up to
 flamboyance, wishful thinking and trying to bring something about, almost
 as if by conjuring it up by saying it.



 I don't care  about commericial claims either, however on two occasions
 they have created expectations that independent assessments of their
 technology were forthcoming by a certain date. The date passed and no
 reports emerged and no explanation was given. Just silence.

 harry



That is not clear. I mean separates dates for each occasion.

In June 2011 we were told that the Greek Government would certify their
device by august 2011.  August 2011 came and went and they said nothing.

At the beginning of 2012 they let it be known that their device was being
independently assessed by several teams and the results of those tests
would be released by may 2012. May 2012 came and went and they said nothing.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Saying nothing is not the same as saying it did not happen or it happened
in other ways you cannot imagine.

2013/8/2 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com


 That is not clear. I mean separates dates for each occasion.

 In June 2011 we were told that the Greek Government would certify their
 device by august 2011.  August 2011 came and went and they said nothing.

 At the beginning of 2012 they let it be known that their device was being
 independently assessed by several teams and the results of those tests
 would be released by may 2012. May 2012 came and went and they said nothing.

 Harry




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread Alain Sepeda

by the way, Defkalion clearly stated, with visible acrimony, that the Greek
government put them administrative obstacles instead of helping them...

maybe is it part of the story...




2013/8/2 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com


 Saying nothing is not the same as saying it did not happen or it happened
 in other ways you cannot imagine.


 2013/8/2 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com


 That is not clear. I mean separates dates for each occasion.

 In June 2011 we were told that the Greek Government would certify their
 device by august 2011.  August 2011 came and went and they said nothing.

 At the beginning of 2012 they let it be known that their device was being
 independently assessed by several teams and the results of those tests
 would be released by may 2012. May 2012 came and went and they said nothing.

 Harry




 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

It would be ironically tragic if the guy who has spent the best part of his
life supporting cold fusion and then LENR, did not recognize the
personification of his goal when it was placed in front of him. It would be
an even bigger tragedy if he fought against his goal’s realization. I
cannot imagine how bad he would feel when the error of his ways became
apparent to him, when it was too late and all he fought for during those
lonely cold years was lost because of his own actions. Oh well… such is
life.

Anybody that agrees with Mary Y in any way needs to reevaluate his thinking
processes.

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

I responded to some of the comments at Mats Lewan's blog:

https://matslew.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/comments-on-defkalion-reactor-demo-in-milan/#comment-1097

I have to walk a fine line. I do not want to get dragged into a fight
between Defkalion and Mary Yugo. I also do not want anyone to think I
endorse Defkalion's claims. They have to publish an independent replication
to establish credibility. I cannot judge whether their claims are true,
false, or mistaken. It is even remotely possible they are fraudulent,
although I doubt that.

The video was a helpful guide to their claims. It puts us in a better
position to judge an independent evaluation. But until we see that
evaluation we must reserve judgement. No one gets a free pass. Nullius in
verba. If Defkalion wants people to believe them, they will publish one of
their reports now held under NDA.

I think it is irresponsible to accuse them of fraud, but it would also be
irresponsible to endorse their claims. I wrote in the blog: In view of the
recent tests by Levi et al., and some unpublished previous tests, I think
it is extremely unlikely that Rossi is engaged in fraud. I regard the Levi
report as independent verification. I have not seen a similar independent
verification of Defkalion’s claims so I cannot judge their credibility.
Obviously I cannot endorse their claims either.

On the other hand, there is no harm in speculating about the theoretical
or engineering aspects of Defkalion's claims, on the assumption that the
claims are true. When an interesting new experiment is published we glom
onto it. We try to figure out how it fits into the big picture of cold
fusion. We do this even though we know that many results turn out to be
mistaken. I am still not sure about Celani's wire claims, especially after
the MFMP and others made heroic attempts to replicate with no clear
results. If that turns out to be a mistake, oy veh! Too bad! That will mean
we have wasted our time speculating about the theoretical or practical uses
of wire, and the MFMP has wasted months of effort and a ton of money.
Them's the breaks. If you don't like that, do not get involved in
cutting-edge scientific research.

We would have to forgive Celani if it turns out to be a mistake. Fraud
would infuriating and unforgivable. But they are functionally similar in
many ways. I do not think many people outside of Defkalion have invested
much effort or time evaluating their results, or speculating about the
theoretical implications. Until the demo we have not had much to speculate
about. People have spent a lot of effort looking at Rossi's results. This
has been fruitful.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

when and where did they clearly state this?

Harry


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote:

 by the way, Defkalion clearly stated, with visible acrimony, that the
 Greek government put them administrative obstacles instead of helping
 them...

 maybe is it part of the story...




 2013/8/2 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com


 Saying nothing is not the same as saying it did not happen or it happened
 in other ways you cannot imagine.


 2013/8/2 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com


 That is not clear. I mean separates dates for each occasion.

 In June 2011 we were told that the Greek Government would certify their
 device by august 2011.  August 2011 came and went and they said nothing.

 At the beginning of 2012 they let it be known that their device was
 being independently assessed by several teams and the results of those
 tests would be released by may 2012. May 2012 came and went and they said
 nothing.

 Harry




 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I can imagine lots of things.
Are they afraid to explain because they fear people won't believe and/or
accept their explanation?
Harry


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:


 Saying nothing is not the same as saying it did not happen or it happened
 in other ways you cannot imagine.

 2013/8/2 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com


 That is not clear. I mean separates dates for each occasion.

 In June 2011 we were told that the Greek Government would certify their
 device by august 2011.  August 2011 came and went and they said nothing.

 At the beginning of 2012 they let it be known that their device was being
 independently assessed by several teams and the results of those tests
 would be released by may 2012. May 2012 came and went and they said nothing.

 Harry




 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:


 Saying nothing is not the same as saying it did not happen or it happened
 in other ways you cannot imagine.


Stop making excuses for Defkalion. What they did was rude. It was an inept
public relations fiasco. Okay, it is not very important. The technology is
what matters. But what the did was unprofessional and it made them look bad.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Seriously, what's your problem? Defkalion was always open and clear to me.
I have no clue what you are talking about.


2013/8/2 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

 But what the did was unprofessional and it made them look bad.

 - Jed




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

It would be ironically tragic if the guy who has spent the best part of his
 life supporting cold fusion and then LENR, did not recognize the
 personification of his goal when it was placed in front of him.


I never recognize any claim until it has been replicated. That is the
rule.


It would be an even bigger tragedy if he fought against his goal’s
 realization.


Who is fighting?!? That is ridiculous. I am saying they should release a
third-party evaluation if they want credibility. Anyone would say that.
Okay, maybe they do not want credibility, or they do not need it. But if
they do want it, they should publish a paper. A demonstration is a good
first step but it must be followed by a rigorous, third-party written
evaluation. They know that! Everyone knows the rules. I am not attacking
anyone when I point this out.



 Anybody that agrees with Mary Y in any way needs to reevaluate his
 thinking processes.


Even a stopped (analog) clock is right twice a day. It is not logical to
claim that every valid assertion must be opposite of whatever Mary Yugo
says. She does not get to set the agenda or decide what is logical. If I
reach a conclusion independently of her that happens to agree with her,
that means she is right. It does not mean I am wrong.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Everyone knows the rules

Jed, do you have a copy of the rule book I could borrow, or at least let me
know what page to look on?...


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

  It would be ironically tragic if the guy who has spent the best part of
 his life supporting cold fusion and then LENR, did not recognize the
 personification of his goal when it was placed in front of him.


 I never recognize any claim until it has been replicated. That is the
 rule.


  It would be an even bigger tragedy if he fought against his goal’s
 realization.


 Who is fighting?!? That is ridiculous. I am saying they should release a
 third-party evaluation if they want credibility. Anyone would say that.
 Okay, maybe they do not want credibility, or they do not need it. But if
 they do want it, they should publish a paper. A demonstration is a good
 first step but it must be followed by a rigorous, third-party written
 evaluation. They know that! Everyone knows the rules. I am not attacking
 anyone when I point this out.



 Anybody that agrees with Mary Y in any way needs to reevaluate his
 thinking processes.


 Even a stopped (analog) clock is right twice a day. It is not logical to
 claim that every valid assertion must be opposite of whatever Mary Yugo
 says. She does not get to set the agenda or decide what is logical. If I
 reach a conclusion independently of her that happens to agree with her,
 that means she is right. It does not mean I am wrong.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

Seriously, what's your problem? Defkalion was always open and clear to me.
 I have no clue what you are talking about.


I am talking about what what it says right here:

In June 2011 we were told that the Greek Government would certify their
device by august 2011. August 2011 came and went and they said nothing.

Plus in the Spring of 2012 (I think it was) they said they would publish
independent evaluations. The deadline came and went. They published nothing
and said nothing. That is rude! They should have explained and apologized.
That is not open or clear.

Okay, this is not a big deal. Start-up companies often miss deadlines and
fail to produce what they hoped they would. They get ahead of themselves.
That is understandable but a company that cares about public relations and
the goodwill of the public will try not to be rude. When you miss a
deadline, or you screw up some other way, it never hurts to explain and
apologize. People forgive mistakes sooner than they forgive rudeness.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I see no reason to apologize anyone, these are tiny details that are in no
way rude to anyone. They are vastly more clear than Rossi and have revealed
way too much about their processes. If you don't pay attention, it's not
anyone else's fault.

-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

Everyone knows the rules

 Jed, do you have a copy of the rule book I could borrow, or at least let
 me know what page to look on?...


The rule is right here, plain as day:

Nullius in verba

http://royalsociety.org/about-us/history/

Chapter 1, paragraph 1, first sentence: Take nobody's word for it.

As Francis Bacon put it in 1620:

For we admit nothing but as an eyewitness, or at least upon approved and
rigorously examined testimony; so that nothing is magnified into the
miraculous, but our reports are pure and unadulterated by fables and
absurdity. . . .  In every new and rather delicate experiment, although to
us it may appear sure and satisfactory, we yet publish the method we
employed, that, by the discovery of every attendant circumstance, men may
perceive the possibly latent and inherent errors, and be roused to proofs
of a more certain and exact nature, if such there be. Lastly, we
intersperse the whole with advice, doubts, and cautions, casting out and
restraining, as it were, all phantoms by a sacred ceremony and exorcism. .
. .

That is the experimental method. There are no substitutes and no shortcuts.
A demonstration -- worthy as it may be -- is not a test, not an experiment,
and not a scientific paper.

That has been the rule since the 17th century. It is the basis of the
scientific revolution. It is also the motto of the state of Missouri and
source of the Jeffersonian spirit at the University of Missouri. It's on
the license plates: show me.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Ok,  it was Francis Bacon that wrote the rules, that clears that up, thanks.

I thought they already put on a show for the show me state I watched
the show on the web with no commercials

On Friday, August 2, 2013, Jed Rothwell wrote:

 ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
 'cheme...@gmail.com'); wrote:

 Everyone knows the rules

 Jed, do you have a copy of the rule book I could borrow, or at least let
 me know what page to look on?...


 The rule is right here, plain as day:

 Nullius in verba

 http://royalsociety.org/about-us/history/

 Chapter 1, paragraph 1, first sentence: Take nobody's word for it.

 As Francis Bacon put it in 1620:

 For we admit nothing but as an eyewitness, or at least upon approved and
 rigorously examined testimony; so that nothing is magnified into the
 miraculous, but our reports are pure and unadulterated by fables and
 absurdity. . . .  In every new and rather delicate experiment, although to
 us it may appear sure and satisfactory, we yet publish the method we
 employed, that, by the discovery of every attendant circumstance, men may
 perceive the possibly latent and inherent errors, and be roused to proofs
 of a more certain and exact nature, if such there be. Lastly, we
 intersperse the whole with advice, doubts, and cautions, casting out and
 restraining, as it were, all phantoms by a sacred ceremony and exorcism. .
 . .

 That is the experimental method. There are no substitutes and no
 shortcuts. A demonstration -- worthy as it may be -- is not a test, not an
 experiment, and not a scientific paper.

 That has been the rule since the 17th century. It is the basis of the
 scientific revolution. It is also the motto of the state of Missouri and
 source of the Jeffersonian spirit at the University of Missouri. It's on
 the license plates: show me.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

I see no reason to apologize anyone, these are tiny details that are in no
 way rude to anyone.


They are unimportant details. However, if you run a business in the U.S.,
and you do this sort of thing, people will soon doubt what you say. People
will say you cried wolf too often and they will dismiss your claims.

Maybe that is not the case in Greece. Maybe their behavior would not be
considered rude there. But here in the U.S. you explain and you apologize,
or you will have difficulty attracting investors and customers. Your
reputation matters.


They are vastly more clear than Rossi and have revealed way too much about
 their processes.


If they have not filed for patents they have revealed too much. Also, if
they have not filed for patents they are crazy, and they have thrown away a
fortune.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

They don't run a business in US. And you are jumping into conclusions that
3rd parties did not extensively tested their reactors.


2013/8/2 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com


 They are unimportant details. However, if you run a business in the U.S.,
 and you do this sort of thing, people will soon doubt what you say. People
 will say you cried wolf too often and they will dismiss your claims.


 - Jed




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

Ok,  it was Francis Bacon that wrote the rules, that clears that up, thanks.


Yes, he is the one. That is why Jefferson kept a bust of Bacon in his
house, and why some people consider him the founder of modern science as
much as Newton was.

When you see people making mistakes in science, going off the track,
wasting money, causing fiascoes, you can usually find a good description of
what they did wrong in Bacon's writings. He gave us a road map to success.
He laid out what should be done, and what should not be avoided. In
particular, he described the mental errors that people make. The methods
have been refined in the last 400 years but the fundamentals are the same.
When people screw up it is usually because they ignore these fundamentals.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I now he was smart and all but,

He famously died by contracting
pneumoniahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia while
studying the effects of freezing on the preservation of meat.

But just how smart?


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ok,  it was Francis Bacon that wrote the rules, that clears that up,
 thanks.


 Yes, he is the one. That is why Jefferson kept a bust of Bacon in his
 house, and why some people consider him the founder of modern science as
 much as Newton was.

 When you see people making mistakes in science, going off the track,
 wasting money, causing fiascoes, you can usually find a good description of
 what they did wrong in Bacon's writings. He gave us a road map to success.
 He laid out what should be done, and what should not be avoided. In
 particular, he described the mental errors that people make. The methods
 have been refined in the last 400 years but the fundamentals are the same.
 When people screw up it is usually because they ignore these fundamentals.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

They don't run a business in US.


Canada as well. Their business culture is similar to ours.

They run a business in Canada. They will make trouble for themselves with
these shenanigans.

If you do not think so, I doubt you have run a business in Canada or the
U.S. I have, so maybe you should stop contradicting me with supercilious
know-it-all comments.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:


 I now he was smart and all but,

 He famously died by contracting 
 pneumoniahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia while
 studying the effects of freezing on the preservation of meat.


An experimentalist to the end.



 But just how smart?


Read his books and find out for yourself.

Here is one on line, although I prefer another translation of it:

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Bacon/novorg.html

(It is a translation because he wrote in Latin.)

For a general introduction, see Loren Eiseley, The Man Who Saw Through
Time. I am huge fan of Eiseley.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

But I contradict you because I do know more than you do and I don't need to
run a business to be sure of what I am talking about.


2013/8/2 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

 I have, so maybe you should stop contradicting me with supercilious
 know-it-all comments.

 - Jed




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Daniel are you a robot?


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

 I see no reason to apologize anyone, these are tiny details that are in no
 way rude to anyone. They are vastly more clear than Rossi and have revealed
 way too much about their processes. If you don't pay attention, it's not
 anyone else's fault.

 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

what do you know that allows you to dismiss their rude behaviour as tiny
details?

harry



On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:40 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

 But I contradict you because I do know more than you do and I don't need
 to run a business to be sure of what I am talking about.


 2013/8/2 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com

 I have, so maybe you should stop contradicting me with supercilious
 know-it-all comments.

 - Jed




 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

An experimentalist to the end

You can say that again.  DGT put on a dog and pony show and for that I
give them credit.  I don't think they are vying for a Nobel Prize.  Like
Daniel said there may be 3rd party testing locked up in NDAs.  It will all
flush out in due time.

Regarding Eiseley, I am not yet convinced time exists so it might be hard
to see through it


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:


 I now he was smart and all but,

 He famously died by contracting 
 pneumoniahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia while
 studying the effects of freezing on the preservation of meat.


 An experimentalist to the end.



  But just how smart?


 Read his books and find out for yourself.

 Here is one on line, although I prefer another translation of it:

 http://history.hanover.edu/texts/Bacon/novorg.html

 (It is a translation because he wrote in Latin.)

 For a general introduction, see Loren Eiseley, The Man Who Saw Through
 Time. I am huge fan of Eiseley.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:


 And you are jumping into conclusions that 3rd parties did not extensively
 tested their reactors.


I did not say that. You are not reading what I said.

On the contrary, I have said repeatedly that third parties have tested the
reactors. I know that for a fact. As I said, I have spoken with several
people who did tests. They are under NDA. They told me only that the
results were inconclusive. Perhaps other people have seen conclusive
positive results. I suppose it would be a good idea for Defkalion to
publish these conclusive reports. They disagree with me. Perhaps they have
good reasons for keeping a low profile. I do not second-guess a business
decision when I know nothing about the circumstances.

I have not seen any reports, inconclusive or positive, so I cannot judge
whether these reports are valid or mistaken. You never can tell until you
read the report. I have often read reports by experts that I considered
mistaken.

Defkalion cannot expect anyone to believe their claims with this policy.
People who stick closely to the scientific method will suspend judgement
and wait for proof.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Because of this, I can say that people are not really paying attention.
It's like wearing a blindfold.

2013/8/2 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com


 Perhaps other people have seen conclusive positive results.

 - Jed




-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

Because of this, I can say that people are not really paying attention.
 It's like wearing a blindfold.

 2013/8/2 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com


 Perhaps other people have seen conclusive positive results.


Because of what? Have you seen reports of conclusive positive results by
third parties? Did Defkalion send you copies of these reports?

If you have not seen any third party reports, you cannot judge whether they
are right or wrong. I have seen papers written by experts from first class
institutions that were full of nonsense. You never can tell.

The statements made by Defkalion are interesting and worth reading. The
demo is worth watching. This appears to be impressive work. Yes, it
appears to be but you can't be sure it really *is* until someone else
replicates, or at least until someone evaluates it carefully with extensive
testing. A one-day video demonstration is not a careful evaluation. I have
seen many impressive claims backed by impressive experiments that turned
out to be garbage. People often make mistakes.

Having said all that, I suppose the claims are true. If I had to hazard a
guess, I would say they are. I reserve judgement because that is how you do
science. There is no harm in holding a preliminary opinion based on what
you have seen so far. As long as you keep in mind that you are guessing and
you may be wrong, go ahead and guess. It is fun!

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

What Defkalion attempted to do was to instill faith in the LENR community.

It is the same principle where the body of the Church recognizes actions
that cannot be explained by natural laws, to inspire faith in the
membership. When the blind see again, when the cripple walk, when the dead
rise and walk again among us, the faithful believe no matter what is said
against the faith. If there is no faith in your heart, there can be no
belief. If there is no belief, there can be no Church.
Our Church is weak and beset from all quarters. We do not need dissention
in the membership.

You are acting like a loathsome heretic in the face of a divine miracle,
like a non-believer, like a devil worshiper, like Mary Yugo who wants to
destroy the faith at every turn.

Faith is beyond logic and reason, beyond proof and testing. It is the
greatest achievement of the human heart; it is what makes the assent of man
march inexorably forward..

Do you require more evidence to bolster your faith like doubting Thomas, a
skeptic in the faith who refused to believe without direct personal
experience, to plunge his suspicious fingers deep into the gaping
wounds piercing  the lifeless hands still flowing forth in the sacred blood
as proof of the miracle that you so long hoped was possible?


You are demonstrating a total lack of faith, a faith in a process that will
not be understood until you have long passed from this veil of tears. Faith
has its rules too. there is no middle ground,  in this matter. either you
have the faith or you don’t; and you don’t and you probably never will.


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

 Everyone knows the rules

 Jed, do you have a copy of the rule book I could borrow, or at least let
 me know what page to look on?...


 The rule is right here, plain as day:

 Nullius in verba

 http://royalsociety.org/about-us/history/

 Chapter 1, paragraph 1, first sentence: Take nobody's word for it.

 As Francis Bacon put it in 1620:

 For we admit nothing but as an eyewitness, or at least upon approved and
 rigorously examined testimony; so that nothing is magnified into the
 miraculous, but our reports are pure and unadulterated by fables and
 absurdity. . . .  In every new and rather delicate experiment, although to
 us it may appear sure and satisfactory, we yet publish the method we
 employed, that, by the discovery of every attendant circumstance, men may
 perceive the possibly latent and inherent errors, and be roused to proofs
 of a more certain and exact nature, if such there be. Lastly, we
 intersperse the whole with advice, doubts, and cautions, casting out and
 restraining, as it were, all phantoms by a sacred ceremony and exorcism. .
 . .

 That is the experimental method. There are no substitutes and no
 shortcuts. A demonstration -- worthy as it may be -- is not a test, not an
 experiment, and not a scientific paper.

 That has been the rule since the 17th century. It is the basis of the
 scientific revolution. It is also the motto of the state of Missouri and
 source of the Jeffersonian spirit at the University of Missouri. It's on
 the license plates: show me.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:
When you miss a deadline, or you screw up some other way, it never hurts
to explain and apologize. People forgive mistakes sooner than they forgive
rudeness.



I agree, except sometimes people have hard time acknowledging their own
transgressions because they fear the wrath of God or some social equivalent
of that wrath.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread James Bowery

When the primary FUD about a situation is fraud, incompetence or delusion,
the last thing you want to do is feed the FUD by hiding honest mistakes.


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:45 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:
 When you miss a deadline, or you screw up some other way, it never hurts
 to explain and apologize. People forgive mistakes sooner than they forgive
 rudeness.



 I agree, except sometimes people have hard time acknowledging their own
 transgressions because they fear the wrath of God or some social equivalent
 of that wrath.

 Harry

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Do you require more evidence to bolster your faith like doubting Thomas, a
 skeptic in the faith who refused to believe without direct personal
 experience, to plunge his suspicious fingers deep into the gaping
 wounds piercing  the lifeless hands still flowing forth in the sacred blood
 as proof of the miracle that you so long hoped was possible?

Exactly! That's what Bacon meant when he said: Lastly, we intersperse the
whole with advice, doubts, and cautions, casting out and restraining, as it
were, all phantoms by a sacred ceremony and exorcism. . . .

You forgot to mention peer-review, and the Authorities on High who are Not
To Be Questioned. At ICCF18 I overheard a researcher describing this. He
said:

I was talking to a high official at the DOE. I asked why they do not fund
these experiments. He said, 'until it is published in *Nature* it has no
credibility and we will not fund it.' I asked him: 'Why does the DOE put *
Nature* magazine in charge of US energy policy?' He did not respond. He was
pretty mad.

I would add that the editor at *Nature* who opposes cold fusion most is a
certified nitwit. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJhownaturer.pdf

If the facts are ever revealed, historians will wonder how on earth this
particular nitwit ended up in charge of US energy policy for 25 years. It
reminds me of the the way World War I was triggered by German military
train schedules. Fiasco leading to disaster triggered by happenstance.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Any group which demands faith as a condition of participation is a cult.

Harry


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 What Defkalion attempted to do was to instill faith in the LENR community.

 It is the same principle where the body of the Church recognizes actions
 that cannot be explained by natural laws, to inspire faith in the
 membership. When the blind see again, when the cripple walk, when the dead
 rise and walk again among us, the faithful believe no matter what is said
 against the faith. If there is no faith in your heart, there can be no
 belief. If there is no belief, there can be no Church.
 Our Church is weak and beset from all quarters. We do not need dissention
 in the membership.

 You are acting like a loathsome heretic in the face of a divine miracle,
 like a non-believer, like a devil worshiper, like Mary Yugo who wants to
 destroy the faith at every turn.

 Faith is beyond logic and reason, beyond proof and testing. It is the
 greatest achievement of the human heart; it is what makes the assent of man
 march inexorably forward..

 Do you require more evidence to bolster your faith like doubting Thomas, a
 skeptic in the faith who refused to believe without direct personal
 experience, to plunge his suspicious fingers deep into the gaping
 wounds piercing  the lifeless hands still flowing forth in the sacred blood
 as proof of the miracle that you so long hoped was possible?


 You are demonstrating a total lack of faith, a faith in a process that
 will not be understood until you have long passed from this veil of tears.
 Faith has its rules too. there is no middle ground,  in this matter. either
 you have the faith or you don’t; and you don’t and you probably never will.

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

yes that too.

harry


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 5:51 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 When the primary FUD about a situation is fraud, incompetence or delusion,
 the last thing you want to do is feed the FUD by hiding honest mistakes.


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:45 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:
 When you miss a deadline, or you screw up some other way, it never hurts
 to explain and apologize. People forgive mistakes sooner than they forgive
 rudeness.



 I agree, except sometimes people have hard time acknowledging their own
 transgressions because they fear the wrath of God or some social equivalent
 of that wrath.

 Harry

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

When the primary FUD about a situation is fraud, incompetence or delusion,
 the last thing you want to do is feed the FUD by hiding honest mistakes.


Yes! A businessman should know that. If IBM forgets to apologize people are
not going doubt their credibility. Defkalion starts out with negative
credibility because of the nature of their claims and the opposition to
cold fusion. They need to do everything they can to shore up their
reputation.

I suppose they do. Maybe their strategy is like Patterson's? He
deliberately made himself look bad. He told me that was his strategy.

People think that is Rossi's strategy. I sometimes think so. Then again,
who knows? He does such odd things, and says such mind boggling things, I
wonder if that is just his personality. Not a strategy. He is a nice guy
and a genius but sometimes *odd*.

I know several cold fusion researchers who have gone off on a tangent and
done things that destroyed their chances of getting funding. They alienated
investors. They acted that way because they are Ivory Tower academics who
have never worked in a corporation or in government. They have no clue how
to act in the real world.

Defkalion is run by a wealthy Greek businessman. I do not know what to make
of it. Maybe the rules  customs of business are different in Greece? I
have no idea. Business customs in Japan are different from the U.S., so
these things vary from one country to another.

If American business people or investors came to the conclusion that Rossi
or Defkalion are engaged in fraud, I would understand why they feel that
way.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

Any group which demands faith as a condition of participation is a cult.


Yes. You do realize, that was a joke? See Poe's law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

. . . An Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear
indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell
the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of
extremism.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Faith in LENR is a recognition that there are things in this time and place
that are not yet knowable. Such Faith is not a mark of a cult; It is simply
the recognition of human limitations. No matter what a LENR developer shows
to an erstwhile evaluator, it will not be enough to prove or disprove the
LENR principle of operation.





Even if the whole enchilada is laid out to the smallest detail, the concept
could never be appreciated or even understood at this early stage.




On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 6:29 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Any group which demands faith as a condition of participation is a cult.


 Yes. You do realize, that was a joke? See Poe's law:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

 . . . An Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear
 indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell
 the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of
 extremism.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

We are in a quantum conundrum :)


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Faith in LENR is a recognition that there are things in this time and
 place that are not yet knowable. Such Faith is not a mark of a cult; It is
 simply the recognition of human limitations. No matter what a LENR
 developer shows to an erstwhile evaluator, it will not be enough to prove
 or disprove the LENR principle of operation.





 Even if the whole enchilada is laid out to the smallest detail, the
 concept could never be appreciated or even understood at this early stage.




 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 6:29 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Any group which demands faith as a condition of participation is a cult.


 Yes. You do realize, that was a joke? See Poe's law:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

 . . . An Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear
 indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell
 the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of
 extremism.

 - Jed

RE: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread Jones Beene


From: Jed Rothwell 

Yes. You do realize, that was a joke? See Poe's law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

. . . An Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a
clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to
tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody
of extremism.

This law is so spot on, but I never realized that it had an actual name,
and an ominous one at that. Combine it with Murphy's Law and you will get
the warning message that it is seldom possible to be understood in a Vortex
posting.

What is often thrown-out to gain a smile can have the opposite effect
without a smiley ... but I was hoping that the insight referred to the ghost
of Edgar Allan Poe, given that even without the Internet, or rants about
Creationism, Poe's intent was often deliberately hard to distill from the
words.

I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it... :-)


attachment: winmail.dat

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Anybody that agrees with Mary Y in any way needs to reevaluate his
 thinking processes.


Do you think Mary's question about the claim of a strong magnetic was
mistaken?  If not, on what basis do you believe there was a strong magnetic
field surrounding the device?  Why were Mats Lewans keys not drawn to the
device?  Mary was observant and asked about the magnetic field.  Her
question seem reasonable to me.

Eric

[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread hohlr...@gmail.com

Keys are brass or aluminum?

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone

- Reply message -
From: Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog
Date: Fri, Aug 2, 2013 9:58 PM
On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

Anybody that agrees with Mary Y in any
way needs to reevaluate his thinking processes. Do you think Mary's question 
about the claim of a strong magnetic was mistaken?  If not, on what basis do 
you believe there was a strong magnetic field surrounding the device?  Why were 
Mats Lewans keys not drawn to the device?  Mary was observant and asked about 
the magnetic field.  Her question seem reasonable to me.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote:

What is often thrown-out to gain a smile can have the opposite effect
 without a smiley ... but I was hoping that the insight referred to the
 ghost
 of Edgar Allan Poe, given that even without the Internet, or rants about
 Creationism, Poe's intent was often deliberately hard to distill from the
 words.


I don't know if I agree.  Often, for example, you write in a slightly
facetious manner (in the humorous sense, not the bad sense).  It is clear
as day when you are doing this.  It is clear what most people's intentions
are when they write in a humorous register.  Smilies are not needed 98
percent of the time, because it is clear what a person's intentions are.

I agree that humor over a written medium can be difficult to pick up on,
but I think that is mainly at first.  The more one becomes familiar with
someone (most people, anyway), the more it is easy to pick up on the
difference between dry humor, on one hand, and other intentions, on the
other.  It is the same when interacting with people face to face, actually.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, hohlr...@gmail.com hohlr...@gmail.comwrote:

Keys are brass or aluminum?


Sure.  But there's perhaps a watch, a steel keyring, a belt buckle, metal
components in electronics that are being carried, an iPhone.  Perhaps he
was wearing only brass and aluminium items and using a brass or aluminum
smartphone.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread blaze spinnaker

Well, we don't know how long it was actually at 1.6T

Maybe that was a spike

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, hohlr...@gmail.com hohlr...@gmail.comwrote:

 Keys are brass or aluminum?


 Sure.  But there's perhaps a watch, a steel keyring, a belt buckle, metal
 components in electronics that are being carried, an iPhone.  Perhaps he
 was wearing only brass and aluminium items and using a brass or aluminum
 smartphone.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I just tried an experiment -- it seems my iPhone is not very magnetic. ;)

Eric


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, hohlr...@gmail.com hohlr...@gmail.comwrote:

 Keys are brass or aluminum?


 Sure.  But there's perhaps a watch, a steel keyring, a belt buckle, metal
 components in electronics that are being carried, an iPhone.  Perhaps he
 was wearing only brass and aluminium items and using a brass or aluminum
 smartphone.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

The question boils down to who do you really believe. DO you believe what
Mary Yugo tells you, or do you believe what J.Hadjichristos is saying.



I have, do, and will trust J.Hadjichristos unconditionally in every case.
If you trust Mary Yugo, more fool you. I’m just saying.








On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:58 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

  Anybody that agrees with Mary Y in any way needs to reevaluate his
 thinking processes.


 Do you think Mary's question about the claim of a strong magnetic was
 mistaken?  If not, on what basis do you believe there was a strong magnetic
 field surrounding the device?  Why were Mats Lewans keys not drawn to the
 device?  Mary was observant and asked about the magnetic field.  Her
 question seem reasonable to me.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

The question boils down to who do you really believe. DO you believe what
 Mary Yugo tells you, or do you believe what J.Hadjichristos is saying.



 I have, do, and will trust J.Hadjichristos unconditionally in every case.
 If you trust Mary Yugo, more fool you. I’m just saying.


I hesitate to even mention that I don't believe what Mary tells me.  She
raised a question, and it was one that is worth thinking about.  Obviously
you don't believe what Hadjichristos says unconditionally.  I don't know
why you'd say that.  It's a silly thing to say.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:38 PM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

Well, we don't know how long it was actually at 1.6T

 Maybe that was a spike


This is a good point.  It might have been a sharp transient that is seen
intermittently.  I personally don't know much about the claim.  I see it is
mentioned in Kim's and Hadjichristos's slides.  I'm inclined to think it
might not be the reason for the thick shielding around the device, which is
something that was mentioned a few days ago, if my memory serves me, as a
protection for electronics.  Far more likely, it seems to me, the shielding
is to protect humans from radiation.  If this is true, there are clear
reasons to keep this piece of information on the down-low.

That is not to say there is no magnetic field.  Perhaps there is, and
perhaps there is a strong one.  All of this just underscores how little we
actually know apart from what has been provided to us by parties with a
horse in the game.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

J. Hadjichristos is among the few great men who will live in this century.
He has made decisions and technical breakthroughs and expanded the scope of
science that will have produced a paradigm shift in the lives of all
humankind into the far distant future.

Few of us will be privileged to know him and those of us that do will be
likened to the people who knew Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Charles
Darwin, Nicolaus Copernicus, and  Marie Curie.

Don’t let petty jealousy distort your view of history, for we are living
during a turning point in civilization unlike any that have gone before;
primarily brought about by efforts and genius of John Hadjichristos.


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:56 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:53 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 The question boils down to who do you really believe. DO you believe what
 Mary Yugo tells you, or do you believe what J.Hadjichristos is saying.



 I have, do, and will trust J.Hadjichristos unconditionally in every case.
 If you trust Mary Yugo, more fool you. I’m just saying.


 I hesitate to even mention that I don't believe what Mary tells me.  She
 raised a question, and it was one that is worth thinking about.  Obviously
 you don't believe what Hadjichristos says unconditionally.  I don't know
 why you'd say that.  It's a silly thing to say.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

If some inconvenient fact does not fit into one's train of ideas and
theories, just ignore it or even discredit it regardless if that fact may
well be the turnkey to unlocking the ultimate truth.


On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:38 PM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 Well, we don't know how long it was actually at 1.6T

 Maybe that was a spike


 This is a good point.  It might have been a sharp transient that is seen
 intermittently.  I personally don't know much about the claim.  I see it is
 mentioned in Kim's and Hadjichristos's slides.  I'm inclined to think it
 might not be the reason for the thick shielding around the device, which is
 something that was mentioned a few days ago, if my memory serves me, as a
 protection for electronics.  Far more likely, it seems to me, the shielding
 is to protect humans from radiation.  If this is true, there are clear
 reasons to keep this piece of information on the down-low.

 That is not to say there is no magnetic field.  Perhaps there is, and
 perhaps there is a strong one.  All of this just underscores how little we
 actually know apart from what has been provided to us by parties with a
 horse in the game.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:17 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Don’t let petty jealousy distort your view of history, for we are living
 during a turning point in civilization unlike any that have gone before;
 primarily brought about by efforts and genius of John Hadjichristos.

I can't tell whether you're speaking in a humorous voice here, a
melodramatic one, or something else.  You are obviously not speaking in a
sober voice, in which two people try to reach common understanding on a
point; or, if you are, I don't know what to say.  We're having a genuine
dialog, trying to come to a common understanding on a point (one of us,
anyway), and you say this.

I've said my peace.  Enough said.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I am trying to reverse the tendency inherent in human nature to belittle
men of great achievement and stature much in the way children berate a
child that has just received a shiny new toy. It starts young and
oftentimes reappears to sour the relations between men of good faith and
heart.

I fear a growing tendency among the various forums to first berate Rossi in
a most brutal manor and now to turn on John H. It is unfortunate that we
cannot swell the noble chorus of our common cause, when again touched, as
surely as it should be and must be, by the better angels of our nature.





On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:17 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Don’t let petty jealousy distort your view of history, for we are living
 during a turning point in civilization unlike any that have gone before;
 primarily brought about by efforts and genius of John Hadjichristos.

 I can't tell whether you're speaking in a humorous voice here, a
 melodramatic one, or something else.  You are obviously not speaking in a
 sober voice, in which two people try to reach common understanding on a
 point; or, if you are, I don't know what to say.  We're having a genuine
 dialog, trying to come to a common understanding on a point (one of us,
 anyway), and you say this.

 I've said my peace.  Enough said.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Well, he is a great guy and a good friend of mine. He surely taught me the
value of taking into consideration a wide spectrum of theories, that they
are complementary to a great extant and that the answer to most
explanations for cold fusion is already in the literature. Also, he always
pointed me that their information is very clear about the phenomena
although you can easily miss the most important details.


2013/8/3 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com

 J. Hadjichristos is among the few great men who will live in this century.
 He has made decisions and technical breakthroughs and expanded the scope of
 science that will have produced a paradigm shift in the lives of all
 humankind into the far distant future.



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

If some inconvenient fact does not fit into one's train of ideas and
 theories, just ignore it or even discredit it regardless if that fact may
 well be the turnkey to unlocking the ultimate truth.


I will ignore the weird tone of this reply and just address the points of
detail.  What fact are you referring to?  The magnetic field?  How do you
know this is a fact at this point?  And how does it unlock ultimate truth?
 How is it being discredited?  A reply that involves magnetic anapoles is a
non sequitur as far as I am concerned.  This is a question about
experimental empirical details, not theory.

With regard to the magnetic field, at this point we don't have enough
information to base our usual speculations off of.  There are a number of
possibilities and too little data to narrow things down.  One possibility
is that every word of hearsay that has been spoken on behalf of Defkalion
on this list so far is right on the mark.  Another is that there is a lot
of radiation coming off of that device, which would be an inconvenient
thing, but unsurprising to me.  A third possibility is that there is
something else entirely going on.

I see how almost two years were spent pondering the question of nickel
isotopes.  That, from a suggestion of Rossi sometime back in a forum, if I
recall.  As far as I can tell, that conversation was largely a wash.  It
was instructive, to be sure, but perhaps irrelevant (we still don't know
for sure).  We still wonder about it from time to time.  It is all too easy
for a person to drop in new tidbits of hearsay -- for example, I
understand that Defkalion are using a square wave signal for the Joule
heating.  Hopefully we won't ponder on that possibility for two years now,
because I made it up completely.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

There must be an underlying psychological reason for thinking this way
because it is not based on logic or experience; a prejudice in judgment or
a unfounded distaste may be at play. Both Rossi and Defkalion have released
this isotopic dependency in their technical papers and patents.



What basic can support as judgment of red herring. Clearly it is not a
scientific or logical one.



Can you explain the reasoning behind this surprising pronouncement?






On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 2:25 PM, DJ Cravens djcrav...@hotmail.com wrote:

  I doubt that isotopically enriched material (other than perhaps H 2) is
 needed.
 In the real world, you just make your sample larger.


 I doubt there is much if any of an isotope effect.  This one says to me,
 red herring.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There must be an underlying psychological reason for thinking this way
 because it is not based on logic or experience; a prejudice in judgment or
 a unfounded distaste may be at play. Both Rossi and Defkalion have released
 this isotopic dependency in their technical papers and patents.



 What basic can support as judgment of red herring. Clearly it is not a
 scientific or logical one.



 Can you explain the reasoning behind this surprising pronouncement?


I think this is a valid request.  I will try my best.  Hopefully you will
do the same for my questions.

The reason I suspect that it is a red herring (which is different than
pronouncing it a red herring) is that to the best of my knowledge different
isotopes of nickel have the same charge and electron densities.  I suspect
that electron screening may be at play in increasing the rate of p+d
tunneling.  Different numbers of neutrons would have no effect in this
instance, to my knowledge.

This huch may well be incorrect.  But it is logical, in the sense that it
uses logical reasoning to connect the topic of isotopes of nickel back to
other things that have been discussed, by saying that the the topic may be
irrelevant to what we're looking at here for reasons A an B.  That there
were details about isotopes mentioned in patents doesn't mean much to me,
because I've seen some weird patents, and people seem to be willing to drop
all kinds of details into them.

On the other hand, the question of nickel isotopes may be relevant.  The
reason I say I doubt there is an isotope effect is because I don't know for
sure and don't have a strong opinion.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:38 PM, blaze spinnaker 
 blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 Well, we don't know how long it was actually at 1.6T

 Maybe that was a spike


 This is a good point.  It might have been a sharp transient that is seen
 intermittently.  I personally don't know much about the claim.  I see it is
 mentioned in Kim's and Hadjichristos's slides.  I'm inclined to think it
 might not be the reason for the thick shielding around the device, which is
 something that was mentioned a few days ago, if my memory serves me, as a
 protection for electronics.  Far more likely, it seems to me, the shielding
 is to protect humans from radiation.  If this is true, there are clear
 reasons to keep this piece of information on the down-low.

 That is not to say there is no magnetic field.  Perhaps there is, and
 perhaps there is a strong one.  All of this just underscores how little we
 actually know apart from what has been provided to us by parties with a
 horse in the game.

 Eric


You have to divide everything he says by 10. ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGEeLtqtNvU


Harry

Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 6:29 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Any group which demands faith as a condition of participation is a cult.


 Yes. You do realize, that was a joke? See Poe's law:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

 . . . An Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear
 indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell
 the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of
 extremism.

 - Jed


Really?
That one went right past me.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I am depressed and saddened by the lack of trust shown here; trust in one
of the most emanate field marshals on the battlefield in the struggle to
advance the interests of LENR. Doesn’t Defkalion have enough enemies from
vested interests? Do they deserve abuse from supposed friends of the LENR
cause? This field strength is true because John H has stated it in public.



There have been many derogatory words spoken here to undercut Defkalion
coming from this list for no good reason that I can tell.



There has been detailed data presented by Dr, Kim on radiation in the ICCF
paper and you chose to disbelieve it. What right do you have to expect more
data for another ill-informed prejudiced evaluation of what Defkalion
truthfully and publically states in the future,


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 8:22 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 If some inconvenient fact does not fit into one's train of ideas and
 theories, just ignore it or even discredit it regardless if that fact may
 well be the turnkey to unlocking the ultimate truth.


 I will ignore the weird tone of this reply and just address the points of
 detail.  What fact are you referring to?  The magnetic field?  How do you
 know this is a fact at this point?  And how does it unlock ultimate truth?
  How is it being discredited?  A reply that involves magnetic anapoles is a
 non sequitur as far as I am concerned.  This is a question about
 experimental empirical details, not theory.

 With regard to the magnetic field, at this point we don't have enough
 information to base our usual speculations off of.  There are a number of
 possibilities and too little data to narrow things down.  One possibility
 is that every word of hearsay that has been spoken on behalf of Defkalion
 on this list so far is right on the mark.  Another is that there is a lot
 of radiation coming off of that device, which would be an inconvenient
 thing, but unsurprising to me.  A third possibility is that there is
 something else entirely going on.

 I see how almost two years were spent pondering the question of nickel
 isotopes.  That, from a suggestion of Rossi sometime back in a forum, if I
 recall.  As far as I can tell, that conversation was largely a wash.  It
 was instructive, to be sure, but perhaps irrelevant (we still don't know
 for sure).  We still wonder about it from time to time.  It is all too easy
 for a person to drop in new tidbits of hearsay -- for example, I
 understand that Defkalion are using a square wave signal for the Joule
 heating.  Hopefully we won't ponder on that possibility for two years now,
 because I made it up completely.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There has been detailed data presented by Dr, Kim on radiation in the ICCF
 paper and you chose to disbelieve it. What right do you have to expect more
 data for another ill-informed prejudiced evaluation of what Defkalion
 truthfully and publically states in the future,


So you're not going to answer my question.  That's fine.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread blaze spinnaker

John Hadjichristos?  An emanate field marshal?  Oh come on...

The guy was a freelance 'business process redesigner' before joining
defkalion.   Before that, I think he managed some medical clinics.

Please.  Your track record must count for something.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace
facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

  There has been detailed data presented by Dr, Kim on radiation in the
 ICCF paper and you chose to disbelieve it. What right do you have to expect
 more data for another ill-informed prejudiced evaluation of what Defkalion
 truthfully and publically states in the future,


 So you're not going to answer my question.  That's fine.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace
 facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a fact?

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

His track record includes the independent development of a technology that
is 100 years ahead of its time.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:53 AM, blaze spinnaker
blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 John Hadjichristos?  An emanate field marshal?  Oh come on...

 The guy was a freelance 'business process redesigner' before joining
 defkalion.   Before that, I think he managed some medical clinics.

 Please.  Your track record must count for something.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated it
in public and without reservation.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace
 facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated it
 in public and without reservation.


So you're going off of John Hadjichristos's word.  That's fine, and it
makes sense on a certain level.  I suppose I would do the same for McKubre,
for instance.  To make any use of it as a fact, we must assume that we
understand the context in which it was observed.

So how does this fact unlock ultimate truth?

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

I am not going to enter into the gristmill of your recriminations. You
strip is clearly showing.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated it
 in public and without reservation.


 So you're going off of John Hadjichristos's word.  That's fine, and it
 makes sense on a certain level.  I suppose I would do the same for McKubre,
 for instance.  To make any use of it as a fact, we must assume that we
 understand the context in which it was observed.

 So how does this fact unlock ultimate truth?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a time not
long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite  the
offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake of his
honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of conduct,
his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully upon
calling a good and noble man a liar.


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated it
 in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace
 facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread Peter Gluck

One of the secrets of Hadjichristos's success is that he is able to
understand complexity and is apt in systems thinking.

Both he and Mike McKubre are great scientists and good friends of mine.
McKubre had the unluck to remain in the classic LENR system where
the problem of reproducibility is inherently insoluble.
Hadjichristos a newcomer (he heard abot CF/LENR) in 2010 was
able to learn from the LENR experience - mainly about what does NOT go.

Things would be so much easier if:
- we accept that LENR and LENR+ are very different;
- we do not try to extract definitive conclusions from data in evolution
- abstain from claiming we are omniscient- for example re business.
- seee the very limits of thinking by analogies and learn what we cannot
learn from history. LENR+ story has new features never met before

Peter



On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 8:05 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated it
 in public and without reservation.


 So you're going off of John Hadjichristos's word.  That's fine, and it
 makes sense on a certain level.  I suppose I would do the same for McKubre,
 for instance.  To make any use of it as a fact, we must assume that we
 understand the context in which it was observed.

 So how does this fact unlock ultimate truth?

 Eric




-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:

Things would be so much easier if:
 - we accept that LENR and LENR+ are very different;
 - we do not try to extract definitive conclusions from data in evolution
 - abstain from claiming we are omniscient- for example re business.
 - seee the very limits of thinking by analogies and learn what we cannot
 learn from history. LENR+ story has new features never met before


Thank you, Peter.

It is true that I have had my doubts about specific details that have been
mentioned (and still do), but to be honest I don't know the origin or the
accuracy or the context of the details.  For all I know they could be
inaccurately conveyed, or they could be accurately conveyed and 100 percent
true.  I should also add that I'm not trying to discredit Hadjichristos or
Defkalion.  You know them much better than we do.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread Peter Gluck

Eric,
all you need is a bit of patience and you will get the specific
data and info you want/need. What exactly has high priority for
you? Can I help you?
Peter


On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 8:32 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:27 PM, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.comwrote:

 Things would be so much easier if:
 - we accept that LENR and LENR+ are very different;
 - we do not try to extract definitive conclusions from data in evolution
 - abstain from claiming we are omniscient- for example re business.
 - seee the very limits of thinking by analogies and learn what we cannot
 learn from history. LENR+ story has new features never met before


 Thank you, Peter.

 It is true that I have had my doubts about specific details that have been
 mentioned (and still do), but to be honest I don't know the origin or the
 accuracy or the context of the details.  For all I know they could be
 inaccurately conveyed, or they could be accurately conveyed and 100 percent
 true.  I should also add that I'm not trying to discredit Hadjichristos or
 Defkalion.  You know them much better than we do.

 Eric




-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread blaze spinnaker

Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean
water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing
games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent
the thing and make money from that.

You call that Noble?

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a time not
 long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite  the
 offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake of his
 honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of conduct,
 his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully upon
 calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated
 it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace
 facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

They cannot just release a product. This involves geopolitical
calculations. If these are not done properly, no one will get anything.


2013/8/3 blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean
 water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing
 games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent
 the thing and make money from that.

 You call that Noble?


 --
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

2013-08-02 Thread David Roberson

I suspect that it would be easy to determine the presence of a field of that 
magnitude.  Time changing fields tend to make themselves seen.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 2, 2013 10:38 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Well, we don't know how long it was actually at 1.6T

Maybe that was a spike

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 7:18 PM, hohlr...@gmail.com hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:

Keys are brass or aluminum?

Sure.  But there's perhaps a watch, a steel keyring, a belt buckle, metal 
components in electronics that are being carried, an iPhone.  Perhaps he was 
wearing only brass and aluminium items and using a brass or aluminum smartphone.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog

Where does this thinking come from. Surely it must be your imagination or
is it a gambit to lay some more disrespect onto John H and Defkalion. You
know nothing about the issues you misrepresent. So there must be some
nefarious motive festering behind your words.



Your words betray your own values and tendencies so keep them close and
quite to advance your best interests.




On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:43 AM, blaze spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.comwrote:

 Millions of people are dying every year because of poor access to clean
 water.   Tech like this could change everything, but Defkalion is playing
 games because they want to make a few more $$$ and not just try to patent
 the thing and make money from that.

 You call that Noble?


 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 To some men, their word is their bond. Honor is all. There was a time not
 long ago that when a man’s word was questioned, he would invite  the
 offender into the street and put a bullet in his brain for the sake of his
 honor. When you question a man’s honor, you question his code of conduct,
 his ethics, his values,  and his worth as a person. Think carefully upon
 calling a good and noble man a liar.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 I know that it is absolutely true because John Hadjichristos has stated
 it in public and without reservation.


 On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 12:59 AM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 There is a pernicious tendency on the forums to ignore or even replace
 facts that are inconvenient to the interests of the poster.

 Specifically and unfortunately here, the 1.6 T magnetic field.

 Thank you.  Now to the next question -- how do you know this is a fact?

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Some comments by me at Mats Lewan blog