This is a great post!
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it depends on the layer2 protocol and how the router handles it if it sees
its own packets coming back. I am using loops often to test a line if it
is ok or has any problem. I am not sure how FrameRelay encapsulation
behaves when you loop the line but i think it sounds feasible that it
will not
Thank You Mr.Chris White and others
regards
jagan
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Hi
just a quick question does anyone know who to set the radius attribute 80 in
the ACS server. I can't find it anywhere in the web configuration tool,
Thanks
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FAQ,
Hi to all engineers out there,
Just thought i'd let you know i have complete my Cisco Security
Specialisation. The four subjects overall were ok and gave me some insight
into cisco security policies and configuration of equipment. I will now be
trying for my CCIE security candiate exam.
Cheers
Hello
By using MRTG how can I monitor temperature
or cpu load of my cisco routers, anyone has an idea?
thanks...
Ufuk Arif Sahin
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(REPOST)
I have a question regarding the subnets keyword for redistribution:
I have recently been presented with a scenario by a CCIE - the question
goes: to redistribute the two static routes into a EIGRP router (one is
10.1.1.0 /24 other is 10.2.2.0 /24) - and the router only runs EIGRP
Walker,
How is it implemented? Is there an external hosts that recognizes
virus signatures? Would you please give us some basic example?
Thanks,
-Original Message-
From: Walker, Jim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: quarta-feira, 12 de dezembro de 2001 18:00
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I just want to log the total time of calls(TERMINATION)! Do anyone know any
free Radius just for this log?
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You find out the MIBs for temp and cpu for your model and then edit your
mrtg config file to add these charts...
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Ufuk Arif Sahin wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
Hello
By using MRTG how can I monitor temperature
or cpu
I have configured cisco netflow, linux flow processing software and IIS web
server to collect and show network usage by protocols
http://net.nevcos.com/network
I am very interested in similar projects. If anyone uses some software to
monitor internet traffic, share your expirience with me,
The load balacing of the VLANs is recommended best practice, however the RSM
does not have wire speed access to the backplane, it has two I/O ports
each one 200Mbps FDX(from memory). By default all odd VLANs are assigned to
the first port and all even VLANs to the second. So if you have all even
My understanding is that the router will:
1. Run through POST (Bootstrap loader is in control, code in ROM executes
diagnostics)
2. Attempt to load IOS
a.) Flash
b.) Network
c.) Boot (which is a small piece of IOS located in ROM, just enough to
get the router up)
3. Perform hardware
In addition, in your configuration I don't see any
dlci listed. What are they? You should have a
frame-relay map statement or if using sub-interfaces
you should use the interface-dlci command. To see the
dlci do a show frame-relay pvc or show frame-relay
map. It appears from the output of the
To be perfectly honest, I have been burned so many times by NOT
having the subnets keyword that I always use it when classful
protocols are involved. The only case I can see where it might cause
problems are during especially messy conversions with multiple
classful protocols running, AND
dear friends,
i got a question on multicast address.by having one ethernet address
grouping
to multiple multicast addresses.i would like to know how many layer 3
addresses
can be mapped by one multicast ethernet address ? and how ?.( i seen in
cisco
press book , it says 32 layer 3 addresses can
12/13/2001 8:15am Thursday
Thanks, What your saying is what I believe to be true --- but were is the
documentation ? That is my problem.
Richard
//
Kane, Christopher A. wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
My understanding is that the router will:
1. Run
Is it possible that your telnet application has a timeout feature you need
to changes as well? If you do a show run and see 'exec-timeout 0 0' in the
vty 0 4 section, then it shouldn't be the router thats ending your telnet
session.
My 2 cents
Mike W.
Message Posted at:
12/13/2001 8:15am Thursday
I am really stumped --- Radia Perlman's book seem to say the oposite of what
you are saying --- page 289
HELP !!!
John Neiberger wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
No. Once SVCs are setup between the LECs, traffic flows
directly
An IP m'cast address is 32 bits long (as with any IP address), the first for
bits are 0x1110 leaving 28 bits. (Still with me :))
Any m'cast ethernet borne frame has a 48 bit MAC (as do all ethernet
frames). A 25 bit prefix is assigned leaving 23 bits.
As 28 won't go into 23 there must be some
Richard,
Good information. Here is part of the output of this command when I give
this command on one of our 5500 RSMs. FYI: We have 2 5500s with RSMs,
however, with the exception of one VLAN, RSM#1 is the HSRP primary for all
other VLANs. Heres the output:
VlanTypeDMA Channel
Hello all been slowing learning my security prodedures and such and ran into
something at work.
ciscoTelnetTrap [1] tslineSesType.0.1 (Integer): telnet[2] tcpConnState:
port port 23 (Integer): finwait2
I've so far translated it as IP address1 is setting up a telnet session to
IP address 2.
Thats not what I'm saying at all. I believe if you look at my original post
I said...
And how many times were you ripped off?
I will make your mistake and make an assumption from your answer since you
didn't specify (which I don't know why you made any assumptions about my
question, it was
Mike,
DMA channels are indeed the I/O's ports I refered to, but I couldn't
remember what they were called (each time I learn something new , something
old falls out the other end).
I came across this about three years ago while setting up a multicast
network and experiencing throughput
That's incorrect. Here is important tax-related information surrounding
this situation:
1) As long as anyone gives Paul a gift of less than $10,000, then they (the
giver) does not have to file a gift return.
2) Anyone that gives Paul a gift cannot take a tax deduction for the
contribution
Hello,
Thanks for answering me.
I am using BGP because we have 2 Internet access and my customer
has 2 providers too. Then, we have to use BGP
This is the BGP configuration
neighbor xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx description eBGP with Mycustomer
neighbor xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx ebgp-multihop 2
neighbor
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
I think you may have misunderstood my statement and I probably
wasn't exactly clear
but when I said multi routing protocol routers I meant multi IP
routing protocols:)
Still confused...are you saying a single IP router can run different
routing protocols?
FWIW I have never used the subnets keyword when redistributing
static, now OSPF, for sure!!
Dave
Lee wrote:
(REPOST)
I have a question regarding the subnets keyword for redistribution:
I have recently been presented with a scenario by a CCIE - the question
goes: to redistribute the
Yes
dave
Ben Liang Tan wrote:
Dave,
when you said multi IP routing protocols does it mean a router runs RIP,
EIGRP, OSPF/BGP within 1 or more interfaces?
TIA.
BL Tan
From: MADMAN
Reply-To: MADMAN
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OSPF or EIGRP [7:28966]
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001
Use it all the time when troubleshooting problems and don't wnat my
connection to timeout while monitoring and it works.
Dave
Jim Bond wrote:
Hello,
I added exec-timeout 0 0 under line vty 0 4, hoping
that I won't get timeout when telnetting to a router.
Is this the right command? It
Again I only see a single neighbor, not dual homed, therefore two
default routes would suffice. Your customer may have two providers but
that has no bearing on you a far as needing BGP though it seems to me
you would be the customer as the dual connected seems more likely to be
upstream but I
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
I think you may have misunderstood my statement and I probably
wasn't exactly clear
but when I said multi routing protocol routers I meant multi IP
routing protocols:)
Still confused...are you saying a single IP router can run different
routing
If I were Paul, I would go the contribution route. Membership fees will
surely prompt users into expecting more responsibilities out of him than he
currently has. Just a thought
Larry Puckette
Network Analyst CCNA,MCP,LANCP
Temple Inland
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
512/434-1838
-Original
Are you telneting to the vty ports or are you reverse telneting from a
terminal server to the console port. If so you need exec-timeout 0 0 on
con 0.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Jim Bond
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:33 PM
To follow up that last though with a little character though, Paul please
add me to the list of contributors.
Larry Puckette
Network Analyst CCNA,MCP,LANCP
Temple Inland
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
512/434-1838
-Original Message-
From: Arthur Simplina [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:
12/13/2001 9:10am Thursday
One more question, I promise not to bother you all day !
I have been looking all over for this but cannot find it:
What SSRP component MUST be Cisco ?
SSRP is a proprietary protocol BUT I think the LES, LECS, BUS can be any
vendor. If I am correct, what is left
Hi everyone,
Does anybody know where and how to get Cisco equipment cheap? I would
like to invest in a Cisco lab to prepare for the CCIE lab but I don't have
too much money.
Stephane Wantou
Message Posted at:
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Try the router bgp command maximum-paths 2
CM
- Original Message -
From: Alejandro Acosta
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: BGP and ip load-sharing [7:28960]
Hello,
Thanks for answering me.
I am using BGP because we have 2 Internet access and my
I don't have her book available so I can't comment directly on the
content. However, read through the following document:
http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/software/ios120/12cgcr/switch_c/xcprt7/xcovlane.htm
What out for line wrap on that one.
You can see that once the LEC has
I have used:
A) 'All-in-One' first edition and a look at the 2nd edition of it.
B) 'CCIE Lab Practice kit' ISBN 0-07-212766-X also by Hutnik
C) 'IPeXpert Lab workbook'
A) All-in-one seems to be the standard starting book and covers the
technologies. The labs are trivial and illustrate
I had a question in a practice lab that asks after bgp is stable ensure
that BGP traffic is only seen every 10 minutes.
I think that [ timers 600 1800 ] should accomplish this.
Any input from anyone else out there would be greatly appreciated.
Dan
This question has come up before, and really
Re-Post
-Original Message-
From: Kaminski, Shawn G
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:17 AM
To: 'Sergio'
Cc: 'Groupstudy'
Subject: RE: CCNP Switching - Mapping MAC address to IP Multicast [7:10]
Don't worry about MAC-to-IP Multicast Address conversion, only IP Multicast
Feargal
Be careful about dispensing legal advice -- unless of course, you are a
member of the Bar, or a CPA or even an HR Block Graduate . Whether
there is any tax due depends on a number of factors -- and quite frankly
we don't have enough information to make any determination about this -- at
/
I totally agree with you Howard.
I just thought you were bragging about dating young girls,
oops sorry Priscilla, I mean young woman.
/
Now... Howard you're just bragging.
Seriously making the point that maturity is mental, not just
physical.
Original message
Date: Wed, 12
[If the subject line is ambiguous, please consult your Monty Python.]
DISCLAIMER: I am involved in several commercial efforts for paper
scenarios and virtual racks. I think the issues raised here, however,
are of value to the community.
---
Certification (and network learning that is
Concerning the novell case, it's a non-trivial task to migrate to a native
ip environment, enough so that it discourages even the people who ignore
the overwhelming power of corporate inertia and attempt to ditch ipx.
Howard C. Berkowitz @groupstudy.com on 12/12/2001 08:13:44
PM
Please
Do both RSMs need to be on the same subnet?
Thanks
richard beddow wrote:
Mike,
DMA channels are indeed the I/O's ports I refered to, but I couldn't
remember what they were called (each time I learn something new , something
old falls out the other end).
I came across this about three
This is wisdom...
I can only add that the whole EIGRP v OSPF debate, and EIGRP's
alleged scaling problems are mostly related to the lack of clueful
design from the onset.
The things you have to do to get good scaling from EIGRP are the very
same things you do by default when designing for OSPF
I just bought a good deal of equipment for my new home lab. They have the
best prices I was able to find, and Kelly is a really nice person. You may
want to give her a call and see what she can do. Here's the info:
Kelly Andersen
Optimum Data, Inc.
5018 Leavenworth St.
Omaha, NE 68106
phone:
HI.
Can a 2610 with 32mb memory support serial tunneling...
Thanks
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Ebay is your best bet. I have found bargains in the more obscure
countries, if you work out the shipping you will save a reasonable
amount.
Symon
---
Hi everyone,
Does anybody know where and how to get Cisco equipment cheap? I
would
like to invest in a Cisco lab to prepare
Check out www.ccxxproductions.com and click on their Build a Home Lab
link. This may help you out.
Shawn
-Original Message-
From: Stephane Wantou Siantou [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:21 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Cisco lab equipment [7:29079]
If you want to load share the VLANs and provide resilience using HSRP both
RSMs need to have an interface configured in every VLAN.
Also I would not use VLAN 1 for data as this VLAN cannot be removed from a
trunk and so propergates everywhere.
RB.
Message Posted at:
Richard,
This is an excellent post, but i need a little bit of clarification on...
1. I've understood multicast as at Layer 3, so I'm confused when you say
that a 25-bit prefix is assigned for the Layer 2 frame. I can't seem to
follow what is happening in multicast addressing between the
Howard,
I'm sure that most, if not all, of the participants on this list
will be very interested in this Quest Project, and I for one
would definitely invest in each layer package that will be
offered. Like the saying goes, you get what you pay for. I doubt
if anyone will question the worth of
Hi Naafi,
Do you mean STUN or async tunneling?
I think that as long as you have enough flash memory and DRAM (you should be
fine) to run IP PLUS, you can do STUN and BSTUN.
Async tunneling doesn't require anything more than the base IP set, so yes,
you should be fine.
Paul
Naafi Matovu
I second that. We have been on a 2 year 3 boss mission to ditch IPX for 300
servers!!!
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:04 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OSPF or EIGRP
Hi,
I've recently installed an RSP7000 upgrade kit into an older 7000-series
router (with an RP1 and SP processor).
Everything worked fine with the original processors, but after I installed
the RSP7000 kit, I get the following message:
RSP-4-Cookie: Corrupt or missing Mac address cookie using
You might want to consider setting the exec-timeout to a really high timeout
interval
rather than setting it to never. If you're not careful to end your
session normally,
it's possible to fill up all your vty slots with idle sessions and prevent
yourself
from telnetting to the box.
Not that
Only if you want redundancy
Dave
khramov wrote:
Do both RSMs need to be on the same subnet?
Thanks
richard beddow wrote:
Mike,
DMA channels are indeed the I/O's ports I refered to, but I couldn't
remember what they were called (each time I learn something new ,
something
Apologies. The last couple of paragraphs were accidentally included
from an internal document I was editing. This is not an attempt to
advertise. Anyway, they probably don't make any sense in this
context.
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You guys peering with each others loopbacks with 2 equal cost routes to get
there??
Bri
- Original Message -
From: MADMAN
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: BGP and ip load-sharing [7:28960]
Again I only see a single neighbor, not dual homed,
It looks like IOS has randomly generated a MAC of .5e03.6100 which
suggests to me it has found a work around itself. This should be fine for a
home lab.
RB.
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--
FAQ,
I've re-read the original message and I am now not sure what you have done.
Just to clarify, this command should be executed on the router you are
telneted too, not the one you've telneted from. Sorry of this is obvious but
I am not sure by the question.
RB.
Message Posted at:
Hi All,
To your question; we are, as all should be, a pure IP and Cisco shop (:.
As to why we originally went Eigrp, who knows it was before my time but I
would guess Cisco had some influence on it, but now we are growing and plan,
no not plan but have bought the routers\switches for 400
Not a bad lookin gig except for the documentation part. It would be
really sweet if they were also looking for a technical writer ;-)
Buri, Heather L. wrote:
Hmmm.
Wish I lived in Springfield.
Heather
-Original Message-
From: Jeff Rollins [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent:
If I remember correctly the 7000's maintained the MAC addresses for
any potential interface cards on the Dallas chip that is part of the
backplane. This way when you replace a line card the MAC address stayed
the same.
Dave
Paul Lalonde wrote:
Hi,
I've recently installed an RSP7000
First...I am assuming that you have 'ip cef' on globally.
next...Look at the configs... you have different queueing strategies on
each. I have run into a problem like this, where will one using fifo and
one using fair-queue you will see issues with the load-sharing. Try to
either make them both
[snip]
In Pythonesque terms, Type 3 scenarios teach you
to deal with the troll, but with the issue being the
clock rather than the velocity of the sparrow.
[snip]
Wait for it...
African or European?
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12/13/2001 12:34pm Thursday
Howard C. Berkowitz wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
[If the subject line is ambiguous, please consult your Monty Python.]
DISCLAIMER: I am involved in several commercial efforts for paper
scenarios and virtual racks. I think
FIN-WAIT-2 is one of the TCP states in the TCP state machine. See the TCP
RFC for more info (RFC 793).
The RFC says, FIN-WAIT-2 represents waiting for a connection termination
request from the remote TCP.
So probably your side sent a FIN but never received a FIN back.
Session close is
I have her book (second edition) and I think she agrees with John. She says
this about the LES:
LES: The node that keeps the mapping from MAC address to ATM address. A LEC
registers its own (MAC, ATM) address with the LES and finds out the ATM
address of other LECs by asking the LES. A LES
12/13/2001 12:50pm Thursday
Thanks --- I do appreciate it.
Richard
//
Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
I have her book (second edition) and I think she agrees with John. She
says
this about the LES:
LES: The node that keeps the
Mentor did something very similar with their vLab offerings. This sounds
like a recreation/alternative to those labs, which in my humble opinion were
very good from
1) an accessability perspective (globally available and accessible)
2) a learning perspective (taught the basic principle through
Yes, both links are connected via MW
myrouter -- mw -- customerrouter
There are 2 serial links of 2 Mbps
Thks
Alejandro,-
Brian wrote:
You guys peering with each others loopbacks with 2 equal cost routes to get
there??
Bri
- Original Message -
From: MADMAN
To:
They don't mean technical writing, which most engineers are incapable of
doing. ;-)
They mean documenting the network configuration, design, etc. A lot of
engineers are bad at that too, but most of them know that they should do
it. It's an important skill and makes sense in the context of
12/13/2001 1:01pm Thursday
one token ring to rule them all
one fddi ring to find them
one virtual ring to bring them all in the broadcast storm bind them
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--
FAQ,
Elmer,
Since an IP address needs to be mapped to a MAC address for delivery, a
multicast frame needs a destination MAC address in the header. As a
multicast frame is going to multiple destinations that are probably not
known to the sender, a special MAC address needs to be used. After all, you
Is it stopping the router from booting or is this just a warning message? I
know that I would prefer to bake Christmas cookies rather than a new
EEPROM! ;-)
Priscilla
Paul Lalonde wrote:
Hi,
I've recently installed an RSP7000 upgrade kit into an older 7000-series
router (with an
Are you talking about how long your telnet session will take before it
timesout from no activity or if you fat finger an address and you have to
wait for it to keep trying an invalid address.
If the latter, try 'ip tcp syn-wait 5'
Should work. btw: add that to your ccie lab default config.
Don't forget about Michael Flatley, Lord of the Dance
nettable_walker wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
12/13/2001 1:01pm Thursday
one token ring to rule them all
one fddi ring to find them
one virtual ring to bring them all in the broadcast storm bind
khramov wrote:
Do both RSMs need to be on the same subnet?
Yes. For instance, let's say VLAN 1 was the 10.1.1.0/24 subnet.
You could configure RSM#1 to have an address in VLAN1 of 10.1.1.2/24.
Then configure RSM#2 to have an address in VLAN1 of 10.1.1.3/24.
Then configure HSRP on both RSMs
I came across this about three years ago while setting up a
multicast network and experiencing throughput problems, IOS was
112-13_P(1). It looks like Cisco have changed the allocation
method, what IOS are you running?
IOS (tm) C5RSM Software (C5RSM-DS-M), Version 11.3(3a)WA4(5)
Perhaps
One reason that you may prefer EIGRP over OSPF would be in a
particluarly meshy environment.
In an OSPF network, inter-area traffic must pass through area zero
(commonly called the core). Traffic between Areas 1 and 2 must be
sent through Area 0, even if Areas 1 and 2 have a direct connection.
Dear All,
Here is the scenario. You have one router with an interface that has
access to the internet. The interface that faces the internet obtains its IP
address from the Web via DHCP. You enable PAT on the outside interface using
the dynamic outside IP address as the PAT address. You
I don't know why that message appeared to come from both Howard and
Me... Mail client snafu... I doubt I could duplicate it.
- Original Message -
From: W. Alan Robertson ;
To:
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: What is our Quest? [7:29085]
[snip]
In
We will be taking the site down for maintainence this evening (EST).
Take care,
Paul Borghese
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--
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FYI
- Original Message -
From: Cisco Systems Inc
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 11:11 AM
Subject: Cisco Certifications Online Support
Dear Eric Louie,
Get Online Support for Cisco Career Certifications and Training
The Training and Certifications Customer Service team has
In an environment that large with no clearly defined area 0, would not
IS-IS also be a viable choice from a technological standpoint? I
understand that not as many people are familiar with it but it seems
like it might be a good fit there.
It seems like the argument is always EIGRP vs OSPF, but
I want to thank everyone for offering to contribute. For now, we are ok
after selling banner ads. The real hero is Lon Cameron and the guys at
InFlow for hosting our humble little site for free. If we had to pay for
bandwidth, there would be a major donation drive required.
We should be
12/13/2001 2:11pm Thursday
Actually, I could have gone a lot further:
Which Hobbit traveled to Mordor, only to find out the module had been EOL'ed
?
Which elf fought the TAC about the bug in the I.O.S. code ?
Which troll from Nortel sold out his customers and employee's and [most of
all]
Is it stopping the router from booting or is this just a warning message? I
know that I would prefer to bake Christmas cookies rather than a new
EEPROM! ;-)
Priscilla
But does your browser accept cookies?
Paul Lalonde wrote:
Hi,
I've recently installed an RSP7000 upgrade kit
The RSP7000 contains the following components:
A bank of hardware (Media Access Control [MAC]-layer) addresses for the
interface ports
sniped from:
http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/product/core/cis7000/7000_him/7000po
vr.htm#xtocid1950512
I can't find proof - but suspect that Dave is
Karen,
I have a feeling that you've been in some kind of teaching role
before based on how you explain concepts. This makes the picture
complete especially when revisiting the previous post by Richard
Beddow. However, when you say you can't fit multiple destination
MAC addresses into an IP
Just an open question ?
We read, learn and teach Routing protocols are at the
NETWORK layer of the famous OSI model...
But they have PROTOCOLS NUMBERS - TRANSPORT LAYER(such
as IGRP protocol 9, EIGRP protocol 88 and OSPF
protocol 89)and APPLICATION PORTS values - APPLICATION
LAYER (RIP uses
Elmer Deloso would like to recall the message, about multicast address!
[7:29057].
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John,
Technologically speaking, IS-IS would probably be very well suited to
such an environment, but more often than not, IS-IS only hits on two
of the three criteria I most base a selection on:
1.Topology - Good Fit. Unlike OSPF, IS-IS isn't limited to a
two-tier hierarchy, nor is there a
(Corrected message for an earlier posting.)
Karen,
I have a feeling that you've been in some kind of teaching role
before based on how you explain concepts. This makes the picture
complete especially when revisiting the previous post by Shawn Kaminski.
However, when you say you can't fit
Just an open question ?
We read, learn and teach Routing protocols are at the
NETWORK layer of the famous OSI model...
Protocol numbers are not an OSI concept, but a concept of IP.
In any case, it is the function of a protocol that determines its
layer, not necessarily what it runs over.
Elmer,
In fact I have done soem teaching, however, it was the months spent doing
phone-tech-support for an ISP that honed the explanation skills. Most of our
customers didn't know much about computers and felt alot more confident
doing what you tell then to do if you explain WHY in a manner that
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