I have noticed that one is crankier than the other, now that you mention
it, Steve.
On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:45 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Coming back to Santa Fe in a couple of weeks. Aren’t you guys GLAD?! I
> am excited.
>
> Me too.. (glad and excited about your return)... I think you h
Coming back to Santa Fe in a couple of weeks. Aren't you guys GLAD?!
I am excited.
Me too.. (glad and excited about your return)... I think you have a
different curmudgeon in you whilst int he high dry air than in the low
wet kind... both welcome, but markedly different?
==
Dear Doug
You're quite right, and there is a huge disconnect.
Nobody on this thread / list is examining the Great Satan who provoked
all of this.
"One nation under GOD" ?
"In God we trust" ??
"God bless America" ???
Whats going on in the Middle East now is just another episode of the
long runni
Nicholas Thompson wrote at 09/14/2012 05:57 PM:
> I thought I believed that we we are ALL zombies.
Maybe you do. I don't know. But I infer from your words in these
e-mails that you believe beliefs are real things, are constituted by
real things, result from and result in real things.
> Maybe I
exity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
Nicholas Thompson wrote at 09/14/2012 12:18 PM:
> gepr wrote:
>> It always surprises me the extent to which people (yes! people in
>> general) over-simplify complex things. One
edfish.com] On Behalf
Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good&qu
Joshua, You are spot on.
I am not sure what we are comparing here. Are we equating bad actions to good
actions? Of course this is misleading, because this discussion can only
demonstrate our ignorance of all the good actions, Moslims, Christians and all
those use Religion to drive them to do
Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good"
Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups
in that religion.
--Doug
On Sep 14, 2012 4:30 PM, "Owen Densmore" wrote:
> My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and
> majorit
Yes, that goes on the list.
On Sep 14, 2012 4:52 PM, "glen e. p. ropella" wrote:
>
> Or they believe that "speaking out against" it is useless.
>
>
> Douglas Roberts wrote at 09/14/2012 03:45 PM:
> > Well, I'd like to suggest that if in fact they really do deplore the
> > fundamentalist Islamic v
But how do we know this? How would you expect a non-extemist to be heard? Its
not like a non-extremist is going to blow up an extremist group… Sort of by
definition.
Plenty of people have spoken out against the events this week. But what more
can they do? The bombs are news worthy. The pe
Or they believe that "speaking out against" it is useless.
Douglas Roberts wrote at 09/14/2012 03:45 PM:
> Well, I'd like to suggest that if in fact they really do deplore the
> fundamentalist Islamic violence that has been raging around the globe since
> 9/11 and before, and yet they are not sp
Well, I'd like to suggest that if in fact they really do deplore the
fundamentalist Islamic violence that has been raging around the globe since
9/11 and before, and yet they are not speaking out against it, there are
several possible explanations:
- They're cowards
- They're terrified of retribut
My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and
majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard.
So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or
human rights or whatever. Where the majority is silent. And the leaders
do not lead
** **
>
> Nick
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 3:06 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Ame
Nicholas Thompson wrote at 09/14/2012 12:18 PM:
> gepr wrote:
>> It always surprises me the extent to which people (yes! people in
>> general) over-simplify complex things. One of my pet peeves is the
>> conviction that religion is identical with belief or doctrine.
>>
> [NST ==>] one'mans oversi
dfish.com] On Behalf
Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
Well see, here we go again.
To which I come back again with t
: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
It always surprises me the extent to which people (yes! people in
general) over-simplify complex things. One of my pet peeves is the
conviction that religion is identical with belief or doctrine.
[NST ==>] one'mans oversimplific
Qué viva el simposio!
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Victoria Hughes
wrote:
> Absolutely to Steve, and whiskey and a talk about all this. I would LOVE
> to.
> Just tell me the time and place.
>
> Tory
>
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2012, at 12:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
>
> Victoria,
>
> I was speaking
apidity to which a
> shallow thinker appeals to it.
>
> ** **
>
> Coming back to Santa Fe in a couple of weeks. Aren’t you guys GLAD?! I
> am excited.
>
> ** **
>
> Nick
>
> ** **
>
>
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun
: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
Absolutely to Steve, and whiskey and a talk about all this. I would LOVE to.
Just tell me the time and place.
Tory
On Sep 14, 2012, at 12:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
Victoria,
I was speaking from the
It always surprises me the extent to which people (yes! people in
general) over-simplify complex things. One of my pet peeves is the
conviction that religion is identical with belief or doctrine.
Most religion is an individualized convolution of belief and practice.
It's not merely belief and i
Absolutely to Steve, and whiskey and a talk about all this. I would
LOVE to.
Just tell me the time and place.
Tory
On Sep 14, 2012, at 12:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
Victoria,
I was speaking from the perspective of two religions with which I
have first-hand familiarity: Christianity a
s. Aren't you guys GLAD?! I am
excited.
Nick
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 1:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East
on one of the
other, less enduring, ways.
Nick
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-b oun...@redfish.com] On
Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 12:47 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the M
Well see, here we go again.
To which I come back again with the point of view that any philosophy, or
religion that is human-centric in nature as both Christianity or Islam are,
is inherently bad. A narrow world view, enabled, promoted, and enforced
with even narrower strict fundamentalist practi
Exactly.
Thanks, Roger.
On Sep 14, 2012, at 10:47 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
The Fixation of Belief, Charles S. Peirce, Popular Science Monthly,
November 1877.
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html
I was going to paraphrase another part of this, but looking at it
again I realize my fe
Religion is not inherently bad. It is the use of it for mundane power
that is the problem.
All religious traditions began with a prophet / visionary / mystic who
urged tolerance, peace and self-awareness. Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha...
In most cases, that person's initial followers began to lev
Great discussion, everyone.
To Owen's point about speaking out against injustice, perhaps we should start a
world-wide organization of the "6-Sigma Peaceful Majority", speaking out
against violence and hatred for any reason. May be it's time for the grass-root
majority to be the leaders of peac
The Fixation of Belief, Charles S. Peirce, Popular Science Monthly,
November 1877.
http://www.peirce.org/writings/p107.html
I was going to paraphrase another part of this, but looking at it again I
realize my feeble bowdlerization wouldn't do it justice. [Emphasis added]
Let the will of the sta
Or there's a bunch of irate terrorists/loonies/freedom fighters that
hijack the Islamic cause because they can't stand America(ns) and want
to hurt us as much as possible - pursuing 'death by a thousand cuts' and
know they can rile up the locals to act/riot/revolt.
Or has this theory been disc
One semi-final note from me about culture and religion: I lived in Libya
for a year in 1976 when I was a consultant to Occidental Petroleum.
I traveled extensively between Tripoli, Benghazi, and several points about
900 miles southeast of Tripoli in the northern tip of the Sahara during
that year
Re Doug's last comment:
It's about power and control. A justification for them. They are
using 'religion' as a potent, unquestionable label to justify their
behaviour. Much like fundamentalists from all 'religious traditions'
Technically, the word 'religion' derives from 're-linking', as in
Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen.
There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting
"Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats
because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion.
And this is not about religion?
I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all. The question is of
groups and institutions.
When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the
entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend?
When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I
religion.
>
[...]
Nick
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts
>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 10:37 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:*
Doug -
I cannot resist: a very accurate description of the impact of
religion, via a single word substitution.
As long as we are being pointed, my last response to Roger's comment and
my ongoing response to yours follows this point:
When does the "Religion of Cynicism" become indistinguishabl
nd regards
Hussein
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012 3:01 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
The Economist sent out their w
Roger -
I grant Doug that the bumpersticker apparently wasn't photoshopped, but
I wouldn't put it past the anti-whatevers to jump the whatevers for
whatever by contriving a "I know this is what they are thinking" device
such as this bumper sticker in question...
I have to ask (just because I
I cannot resist: a very accurate description of the impact of religion,
via a single word substitution.
In my opinion.
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> [...]
>
> *Incredible but true, some people start ignorant and become more so.*
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2
in
From:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>
[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012 3:01 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: Ame
And she removed the bumper-sticker from her web-site after the interview
with the journalist from Forbes.
Incredible but true, some people start ignorant and become less so.
-- rec --
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> First things first: the bumper sticker. It is, sadly
First things first: the bumper sticker. It is, sadly, real, and not just a
photoshopped artifact:
It came out of Georgia, and the woman who created it was shocked, just
shocked, that people would think it racist.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/don-t-nig-purveyor-paula-smith-says-bumper-185
-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 10:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
Well, as much as I respect your op
Doug -
You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or distancing
through abstraction... and yes it may be a side show. But as you point
out, a side show that has not even been mounted.
/Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful
effects of mass adherence
itically
> correct reply that some people expect.****
>
> ** **
>
> If the above is a starting point for a discussion, next
> time you visit Australia, drop by and we can attempt to resolve it all on a
> nice cup of coffee with nice dark chocolates J
>
of coffee with nice dark chocolates J
Kind regards
Hussein
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On
Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, 14 September 2012 3:01 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya |
Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my opinion is the
primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity" group. That weakness
being, again solely in my opinion, an inability or perhaps an unwillingness
to face the real substantive, important complexity issues that surround us.
Instead
Hussein -
I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend the name of our God
or our Faith or our gender or our cultural or genetic heritage or sexual
orientation or hair color or set of our jaw. Even when obviously (but
superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges and to accept
riday, September 14, 2012 12:14 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya
> | The Economist
>
> ** **
>
> So, wine is the root cause of all our problems? I think not. I can
3, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).
--Doug
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
Th
gt; ** **
>
> *From:* friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Douglas Roberts
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 13, 2012 11:32 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle Ea
2012 1:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
A Facebook-style visual data-byte response, Owen (attached).
--Doug
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
The Econ
f Of *Douglas Roberts
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya
> | The Economist
>
> ** **
>
> A Facebook-style visual data-byte respon
Doesn't the same apply to the drinking of wine?
From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf
Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the M
Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya
fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW
This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't
the civi
And to punctuate this particular point of view, please see the attached
Republican bumper sticker that is all the rage these days in the good ol'
USA.
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 6:03 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> That is, of course one (somewhat escapist) view on the recent events.
>
> Here's another
That is, of course one (somewhat escapist) view on the recent events.
Here's another: the majority *has* spoken up. Welcome to the wonderful
world of Islamic Fundamentalism.
But don't worry, there's plenty of Fundamentalism -- Christian-flavored --
to go around for the United States as well. J
Kofi Annan, in a 2.5 minute discussion w/ Charlie Rose, said it well:
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12548
"Where are the leaders? Where is the Majority? Nobody speaks up."
-- Owen
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group lists
erber
From: Owen Densmore
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
Thanks .. I had heard similar ideas. Do you have a pointer .. say to an
article or
Sorry, I don't have a reference. Just general reading.
Bruce
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:29 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> Thanks .. I had heard similar ideas. Do you have a pointer .. say to an
> article or site?
>
>-- Owen
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Bruce Sherwood
> wrote:
>>
>> Also
Thanks .. I had heard similar ideas. Do you have a pointer .. say to an
article or site?
-- Owen
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> Also, as I understand it, one of the hopeful developments in recent
> years is that there HAS emerged significant push-back in the Muslim
Also, as I understand it, one of the hopeful developments in recent
years is that there HAS emerged significant push-back in the Muslim
world to the fundamentalist extremists. A related development is that
there has been growing Muslim hostility to Al Queda, because they
really don't like Al Queda
rsion of colonized peoples and the rise of Hitler
> and its consequences.
>
> Ah humanity
>
> cheers, Paul
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Owen Densmore
> To: Complexity Coffee Group
> Sent: Thu, Sep 13, 2012 11:01 am
> Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and th
bject: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The
Economist
The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the Libya
fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW
This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why don't
the civilized mu
The Economist sent out their weekly email, which included a story on the
Libya fiasco: http://goo.gl/0mfCW
This reminded me of one of my possibly Politically Incorrect notions: Why
don't the civilized muslim world attempt to counter this insanity on the
part of their fundamentalists? At least som
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