Re: MySQL.org
On Sun, Dec 30, 2001 at 04:38:02PM -, Andy Woolley wrote: Well, it certainly seems to be pointing to MySQL.com alright. Although the domain name registrant is still NuSphere and DNS still appears to be handled by NuSphere's command the IPAddress it resolves to is definitely that of MySQL.com. Hmmm, I certainly hope this is justice and not just carrot dangling. Does anyone have any info from the team yet? I don't think you can get much since they're involved in a lawsuit right now. Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 349-7878 Fax: (408) 349-5454 Cell: (408) 685-5936 MySQL 3.23.41-max: up 6 days, processed 128,352,233 queries (247/sec. avg) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: MySQL.org
Hi, Well, it certainly seems to be pointing to MySQL.com alright. Although the domain name registrant is still NuSphere and DNS still appears to be handled by NuSphere's command the IPAddress it resolves to is definitely that of MySQL.com. Hmmm, I certainly hope this is justice and not just carrot dangling. Does anyone have any info from the team yet? Regards Andy. - Original Message - From: Frederick L. Steinkopf [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 3:09 PM Subject: MySQL.org I see the MySQL.org is now pointing to the MySQL.com site. I have not been able to get an update anywhere on the Nusphere / MySQL lawsuit. The was no recent news on the MySQL site and nusphere seems to be having server problems. Can anyone shed some light on the latest? sql, mysql Fred Steinkopf - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
John Birrell wrote: On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:29:52PM -0400, Britt Johnston wrote: MySQL AB and NuSphere had a meeting over the phone, we exchanged information and opinions and NuSphere will propose times for the next meeting. Since these issues are between two private companies, please take your discussions off this list. It is none of our business. By all means, tell us the result. With all due respect, John, I for one absolutely disagree with you on this. I want to be kept as informed as MySQL AB and NuSphere are willing to keep me. I'd be willing to bet there are a sufficient number of participants here who agree with me. Tom Keller mysql? query? database? huh? - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Since these issues are between two private companies, please take your discussions off this list. It is none of our business. By all means, tell us the result. This discussion most certainly is our business. I would appeal to both MySQL AB and NuShphere to keep discussions as public as is reasonably possible. Open source development in general is in a phase where business interests, legitimate and otherwise, are directly affecting many pieces of software that are critical to the overall health of the Internet. The more we, the users of MySQL and the like, are squeezed out of the debate the less 'open' open-source will become. The less we show an interest in the debate the less will be the perceived need to keep the source truly open. Monty and co obviously felt there was a need for the mysql list to be informed. I strongly applaud this. It's crucial that we encourage folks like Monty to stick to the principle that open source software is for an open community, even if it does occasionally mean you have to wash your laundry in public. Lists like this are trivial to filter at the recipient's end, so for those who really object please do that rather than encourage that the debate be taken offline. Mark Mark Tiramani FREDO Internet Services [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:13:15PM +0100, Mark Tiramani wrote: Since these issues are between two private companies, please take your discussions off this list. It is none of our business. By all means, tell us the result. This discussion most certainly is our business. No it's not. MySQL is owned by MySQL AB. The fact that you get to use their code under GPL has no bearing on their commercial discussions. All these posts to this list only serve to inflame the situation. -- John Birrell - [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
John Birrell wrote: On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:13:15PM +0100, Mark Tiramani wrote: Since these issues are between two private companies, please take your discussions off this list. It is none of our business. By all means, tell us the result. This discussion most certainly is our business. No it's not. MySQL is owned by MySQL AB. The fact that you get to use their code under GPL has no bearing on their commercial discussions. All these posts to this list only serve to inflame the situation. John: I beg to differ. This discussion is very relevant to all of our planning, if we use MySQL as a critical component in our Open Source application(s). Use a filter. Regards, Van -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:29:52PM -0400, Britt Johnston wrote: MySQL AB and NuSphere had a meeting over the phone, we exchanged information and opinions and NuSphere will propose times for the next meeting. Britt... Britt, thanks for the update. The neutral tone and lack of result make it sound like you had a frank exchange of views. Since MySQL AB initiated posting events here as they occur, and few people complained about it, I see no reason why either side shouldn't continue. -- Bob Hall mysql list incantation: sql table database query - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:29:52PM -0400, Britt Johnston wrote: MySQL AB and NuSphere had a meeting over the phone, we exchanged information and opinions and NuSphere will propose times for the next meeting. Britt... Britt, thanks for the update. The neutral tone and lack of substantial result make it sound like you had a frank exchange of views. Since MySQL AB initiated posting events here as they occur, and few people complained about it, I see no reason why either side shouldn't continue, unless we plan to ban all discussion of the matter. -- Bob Hall mysql list incantation: sql table database query - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Too bad it's not your list to make that decision, but Monteys Ruben mysql - the database written and owned by MYSQL AB On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:13:15PM +0100, Mark Tiramani wrote: Since these issues are between two private companies, please take your discussions off this list. It is none of our business. By all means, tell us the result. This discussion most certainly is our business. No it's not. MySQL is owned by MySQL AB. The fact that you get to use their code under GPL has no bearing on their commercial discussions. All these posts to this list only serve to inflame the situation. -- John Birrell - [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Michael Meltzer wrote: thought the list might want to know, this has been picked up by a trade magazine, I got a copy of interactive week in sail mail today. (In my best sarcastic voice)As they say in Hollywood Any Publicity is good as long as your spell the names right. Found a web version if any one wants a look. http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2787146,00.html MJM database to make the filter happy Michael: I'd have never caught that but for the list. Thanks. Wonder what the audience for that site is. Also, was particularly intrigued by the Portal out of the Box note. I thought Progress' only integration with MySQL was Gemini. Clearly MySQL + Gemini != Portal. Hmmm! I'm (probably?) not going anywhere with this, but, perhaps someone should order the mysql.org product and check for PHP integration under interesting licensing (not GPL). Not the same licensing as Apache, which could be integrated in almost anything non-GPL, but makes the ears perk up. My vote's for Monty and MySQL AB. That's the server I use and will continue to do so. Best Regards, Van -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Van wrote: Michael Meltzer wrote: thought the list might want to know, this has been picked up by a trade magazine, I got a copy of interactive week in sail mail today. (In my best I'd have never caught that but for the list. Thanks. Wonder what the audience for that site is. Also, was particularly intrigued by the Portal out of the --- Just a few facts for the list drawn from my dusty memory... 1. Ziff-Davis is the largest technical publishing house 2. I think Iter@ctive Week started around 1994, and was the first rag to really cover the Net explosion 3. In the first days of Unix on a PC, Progress was one of the big four DB's, which were: - Informix - Empress - Unify - Progress 4. These RDB's were all ported from mini's, their bread and butter were DEC/DG/Prime/Harris etc Oracle was just getting started. 5. Informix won that niche quickly, as it had a very good port to Xenix/286. 6. The only good Unix that ran well on the 286 was Xenix. Some of you may be unaware that Microsoft developed that Unix port, and Microsoft's ads at the time read Xenix is Unix, only better. 7. The only other DB's available at the time for PC's were INGRES and Postgres (which was a different animal then, research oriented) and these were bears to get working. The poor man's Unix at the time was from Microport, $99 on about 20 floppies 8. Progress withdrew to selling their engine to third party developers, typically large industrial programs, such as SiteLine, that would control an entire industrial manufacturing process. 9. Progress is a very good database, and I think it is like UniVerse, non-first normal, with multiple entry fields per record (ARRAY things). It is rank speculation upon my part, so do not take as gospel, but it would seem to me that Progress needs to have some kind of lighter-weight product. I have a bit of experience with trying to use some data from Progress across Net for web work along with MySQL, but Progress is not designed for the Web where things like connection build-up and tear-down are critical. It is my belief that the Progress web interface tools have not been too successful. Given the above, I can see the needs and thinking of Progress management wishing to have a relationship with MySQL. Customers need industrial-strength features such as row-locking before it can even be considered for mission critical requirements. I think this is what they wish to ultimately do, bring these extra facilities to MySQL to make a robust product. As much as I love MySQL, I would not step into an X-ray scanner that had MySQL underneath. It just isn't designed for that kind of thing. MySQL's excellence is, for the moment, in other domains. Making dynamic web sites is easy with MySQL, but the nature of the Web itself is forgiving, completely non-critical. I would speculate that 98 percent of the code written with MySQL does not even check error returns and do something sensible with it. It is just not necessary. for the web, and sloppy coding is the norm. I certainly do it... _jef -- Justin Farnsworth Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
[ database table sql ] Van wrote: Michael Meltzer wrote: thought the list might want to know, this has been picked up by a trade magazine, I got a copy of interactive week in sail mail today. (In my best I'd have never caught that but for the list. Thanks. Wonder what the audience for that site is. Also, was particularly intrigued by the Portal out of the --- Just a few facts for the list drawn from my dusty memory... 1. Ziff-Davis is the largest technical publishing house 2. I think Iter@ctive Week started around 1994, and was the first rag to really cover the Net explosion 3. In the first days of Unix on a PC, Progress was one of the big four DB's, which were: - Informix - Empress - Unify - Progress 4. These RDB's were all ported from mini's, their bread and butter were DEC/DG/Prime/Harris etc Oracle was just getting started. 5. Informix won that niche quickly, as it had a very good port to Xenix/286. 6. The only good Unix that ran well on the 286 was Xenix. Some of you may be unaware that Microsoft developed that Unix port, and Microsoft's ads at the time read Xenix is Unix, only better. 7. The only other DB's available at the time for PC's were INGRES and Postgres (which was a different animal then, research oriented) and these were bears to get working. The poor man's Unix at the time was from Microport, $99 on about 20 floppies 8. Progress withdrew to selling their engine to third party developers, typically large industrial programs, such as SiteLine, that would control an entire industrial manufacturing process. 9. Progress is a very good database, and I think it is like UniVerse, non-first normal, with multiple entry fields per record (ARRAY things). It is rank speculation upon my part, so do not take as gospel, but it would seem to me that Progress needs to have some kind of lighter-weight product. I have a bit of experience with trying to use some data from Progress across Net for web work along with MySQL, but Progress is not designed for the Web where things like connection build-up and tear-down are critical. It is my belief that the Progress web interface tools have not been too successful. Given the above, I can see the needs and thinking of Progress management wishing to have a relationship with MySQL. Customers need industrial-strength features such as row-locking before it can even be considered for mission critical requirements. I think this is what they wish to ultimately do, bring these extra facilities to MySQL to make a robust product. As much as I love MySQL, I would not step into an X-ray scanner that had MySQL underneath. It just isn't designed for that kind of thing. MySQL's excellence is, for the moment, in other domains. Making dynamic web sites is easy with MySQL, but the nature of the Web itself is forgiving, completely non-critical. I would speculate that 98 percent of the code written with MySQL does not even check error returns and do something sensible with it. It is just not necessary. for the web, and sloppy coding is the norm. I certainly do it... _jef -- Justin Farnsworth Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 09:17:31AM -0400, Bob Hall wrote: I think I've made it clear that I'm not enamored of NuSphere's recent actions, which I think are remarkably bone-headed. At I'm afraid the emotions aroused by recent events have stripped away my thin veneer of reasonable civility and exposed the harsh, arrogant, stunted human being underneath. :) But seriously, I'm taking advantage of the occasion of a mild rebuke delivered privately to renew my commitment to treating everyone with respect. At least until the next bone-headedd7B Bob Hall How to invoke the MySQL list sendmail daemon: Database, dataspace, Sql query. Destribute my e-mail, Be quick and don't tarry! - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
The web site is a off shot of the magazine, Ziff-Davis publishes most of the tech magazines on the new racks. They Been doing it for a long time. The class that this one is in I will call the Movers and Shakers. Interactive week they claim is a 200$ a year subscription, but I doubt anyone ever paid it. It is sent to you after filling out a questionnaire that you buy/approval/recommend Internet/computer stuff. They want the CTO to the lead programmer(people in the purchase order loop) They are using it so the advertiser reach the group they want. Overall they are not bad and give you something to read in the restroom. MJM - Original Message - From: Van [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 1:32 AM Subject: Re: mysql.org Michael Meltzer wrote: thought the list might want to know, this has been picked up by a trade magazine, I got a copy of interactive week in sail mail today. (In my best sarcastic voice)As they say in Hollywood Any Publicity is good as long as your spell the names right. Found a web version if any one wants a look. http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2787146,00.html MJM database to make the filter happy Michael: I'd have never caught that but for the list. Thanks. Wonder what the audience for that site is. Also, was particularly intrigued by the Portal out of the Box note. I thought Progress' only integration with MySQL was Gemini. Clearly MySQL + Gemini != Portal. Hmmm! I'm (probably?) not going anywhere with this, but, perhaps someone should order the mysql.org product and check for PHP integration under interesting licensing (not GPL). Not the same licensing as Apache, which could be integrated in almost anything non-GPL, but makes the ears perk up. My vote's for Monty and MySQL AB. That's the server I use and will continue to do so. Best Regards, Van -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Absolutely great! You are so keen and brave - I wouldn't dare to and some others obviously neither! We need people who calm things down to make negotiations and an agreement possible, that's absolutely true, but we also need people to emphasize the frontiers to make a correct agreement possible in the first place. If it is not possible to distinguish between right or wrong, how will you hope to reach a basis that will last? It is not a question of politics, but of ethics and morals. I know that these are not counted upon in business, but ultimately this is what drives the world. And nobody will ever change the basic principles. You may have short term success violating those principles, but they will not last. Yesterday, I read an interesting German article about Bill Gates. A nice parallel was drawn to Napoleon and the like. All of these had huge success on the short run, but failed very soon. When I started in my computer business, Nixdorf was overwhelmingly successful. Five years later, they didn't exist anymore. They, like all big players at the time, held their customers hostage. Nobody liked that, so as soon as they had a chance they took their choice. The same will happen with Microsoft and any other endeavor which tries to force people into something which they don't really want. On the other hand, the open source movement is driven by huge energies which cannot be bought by money, no matter how much you want to throw at it. As they are negotiating right now, as far as I remember, this beautiful analysis may come a little late. On the other hand, they plan to take breaks and communicate, so I hope both parties will get to know your arguments. You are, of course, welcome to your opinion, and to the expression of said opinion. You are also liable to be judged on the basis of that expression, and frankly, your expression leaves me wondering about your wisdom and your analytical capabilities, not to mention your social skills. What - you work for NuShpere. My analysis of this affair is correct. It comes down to trust I TRUST MONTY. I do not trust Brit, and man who has abused the GPL, abused the MYSQL trademark, and broke the trust between the two partners. What do I base that trust on 6 years of contant communication and dependency of the MYSQL staff and my PERSONAL relationship with Monty and his Fella's as he called them. Furthmore, the assumption that under any condition NuSphere BROUGHT the right to open up shop directly under the MYSQL name and conduct independent sales, promotion and business, is damn off the wall, far fetched, and ridicules to asume, that you'd have to be a complete utter moron to beleive this report, and in addition, the report should be playing tomorrow afternoon on the Opra show, and be reported right next to the alien abduction story in the National Enquirer. Furthermore, their behavior secondary to this, and the proposition that they opened the mysql.org site as a Community site flies right in the face of the proposition forwarded by NuShpere that they opened the site with full rights to do so under previous agreements because they purchased control over the MYSQL trademark because they did in secret, then protested they had they right ot, after saying it was a communitee site, and then finally, they release they're Gemini code on it, only after 100's of people complained that they were violating the GPL. This is NOT the actions of an honest person...period... No We need NuSphere to admit their wrongs, make a blanket apology, and everyone can call a no harm no foul, and forget it happened. Ruben - End of forwarded message from Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO - - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php -- Herzlich Werner Stuerenburg _ ISIS Verlag, Teut 3, D-32683 Barntrup-Alverdissen Tel 0(049) 5224-997 407 · Fax 0(049) 5224-997 409 http://pferdezeitung.de - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
MySQL AB and NuSphere had a meeting over the phone, we exchanged information and opinions and NuSphere will propose times for the next meeting. Britt... -- D. Britton Johnston 603-578-6707 Nashua Chief Technology Officer 781-280-4954 Bedford NuSphere Corporation 781-280-4600 Main 14 Oak Park 781-280-4646 Fax Bedford, MA 01730 www.nusphere.com - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Fri, Jul 20, 2001 at 12:29:52PM -0400, Britt Johnston wrote: MySQL AB and NuSphere had a meeting over the phone, we exchanged information and opinions and NuSphere will propose times for the next meeting. Since these issues are between two private companies, please take your discussions off this list. It is none of our business. By all means, tell us the result. -- John Birrell - [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
First, I support mySQL and Open Source community. Maybe you can fight them with their own weapon. They have made some extra applications based on mySQL, and they sell it. You can create same applications as Open Source. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Wed, Jul 18, 2001 at 11:10:20AM -0700, Michael Collins wrote: It seems to me that the bottom line is that any outcome that results in there being a fork in the development of MySQL (with the result being two completely different types of MySQL), or in NuSphere retaining control of the mysql.org domain should be vehemently rejected by the MySQL community. No matter what agreement may or may not have been created, since MySQL AB has made it clear that this is not what they want or intended. So to me it is obvious that any agreement that may have been made is either being misinterpreted by NuSphere or was not entered in good faith. NuSphere, if what you want is an improved MySQL and if you have anything to contribute to the betterment of MySQL, hand over the code. If you want a non-profit Web site first turn over MySQL.org to MySQL AB and either register NuSphere.org for your non-profit site or help MySQL AB to get it started. If you want to make money on MySQL, follow the guidelines of GPL to the letter and to the approval of MySQL or pay the per-copy license. I guess the solution seems so simple for an outsider. -- Michael I think I've made it clear that I'm not enamored of NuSphere's recent actions, which I think are remarkably bone-headed. At the same time, a NuSphere-controlled mysql.org doesn't strike me as a disaster, provided they can do it with out shooting themselves in the foot, as they are doing now. I have two concerns about the present conflict. First is the obvious problem that MySQL AB lacks the resources to develop table types with extended functionality, as NuSphere, SleepyCat, and InnoDB are doing. MySQL AB has a comparative advantage in SQL interfaces, core DBMS functionality, and porting MySQL to as many OSs as possible. If they try to do more than that, they'll probably be too overextended to do any single thing well. NuSphere has a comparative advantage in providing extended functionality. Because they don't have to deal with the problems that MySQL AB is solving, and because they have an existing code base that they can modify, they can bring a relatively mature product to market that makes the overall MySQL package more attractive. Even if you discount the marketing hype, the word from the beta testers is good. My second concern is the fact that NuSphere has made a large investment in converting their table to use with MySQL, and that investment was made after undergoing a formal agreement. If the investment fails and the agreement ends in lawsuits, it will discourage further investment and more agreements involving other companies. On the other hand, if the present disagreement can be resolved without recourse to legal remedy and NuSphere makes a nice profit on its investment, it will encourage other companies to make agreements with MySQL AB and make investments that further extend MySQL's capabilities. It's in everone's interests for NuSphere to make a profit, and it's in everone's interests for MySQL AB to have a reputation as a reasonable business partner. The developer community needs both the complementary capabilities of NuSphere and MySQL AB, and useful tools from other companies. The tools won't come unless other companies invest, and they won't invest unless they think they can make a profit. Disagreements between partners raise costs and reduce profit. I don't want to discourage either side from defending their interests or what they see as their rights. An agreement that leaves one side or the other feeling ripped off is not going to encourage more agreements or more investment. On the other hand, failure to come to agreement will poison the communal well. In the end, the details of an agreement will be less important than the fact of an agreement, provided the agreement promotes both parties' interests. NuSphere doesn't need mysql.org in order to make a profit, and MySQL AB can allow some use, perhaps temporarily, of the MySQL trademark without surrendering the crown jewels. MySQL AB's primary assets are its leadership in the MySQL community and the company's comparative advantage in the kinds of development mentioned above. The real issues are: How is NuSphere going to market their product, what is MySLQ AB going to contribute that both helps NuSphere and helps create the perception of an atmosphere that welcomes outsiders, and what is the value of MySQL AB's contribution (i.e. how much is NuSphere going to pay for an agreement, either in cash or otherwise). -- Bob Hall mysql list incantation: sql table databse query - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try:
Re: mysql.org
the same time, a NuSphere-controlled mysql.org doesn't strike me as a disaster, provided they can do it with out shooting themselves in the foot, as they are doing now. Nah There using it as a marketing ploy to dup the public. The should have released their GPLed extentions on NuShpere.com rather than maysql.org, but they are unwilling to do this because they feel they have the right to be seen as the originators of MYSQL. Ruben - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Dear folks at NuSphere, Thank you for your response to our open invitation. We disagree with a number of your statements, but we look forward to having a phone contact with you on Friday. Marten Mickos (database,sql,query,table) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
the same time, a NuSphere-controlled mysql.org doesn't strike me as a disaster, provided they can do it with out shooting themselves in the foot, as they are doing now. Nah There using it as a marketing ploy to dup the public. The should have released their GPLed extentions on NuShpere.com rather than maysql.org, but they are unwilling to do this because they feel they have the right to be seen as the originators of MYSQL. I think you see evil people, conspiracies and other unwanted stuff when in fact there are only misunderstandings and opposing viewpoints. I'm with Bob Hall on this one. Excellent statement Bob! -S - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Fact MYSQL owns their trademark Fact, what NuShpere brought form MYSQL is irrelevant as loing as they are infrringing on the MYSQL Trademark...and they were going to do WORSE until the public heat. Until they apologies fo the GPL violation, and then the Trademark infringment, they are pound scum and deserve no support attention, or benifit of any doubt. Ruben I think you see evil people, conspiracies and other unwanted stuff when in fact there are only misunderstandings and opposing viewpoints. I'm with Bob Hall on this one. Excellent statement Bob! -S Their is no conpsirisy, there is only one company trying to steel the good name of another company through immoral (and illegal) activities. Nusphere has no justffication, defense or right to take a product and push it on the public through the use of some elses trusted trademark... It's not. There was an agreement. Nusphere paid money for that agreement. MySQL sold SOMETHING to them, that much is clear. Have you seen the agreement? Do you have 100% proof that MySQL did not sell the right to use their (yet to be approved) trademark!? Temporary or otherwise? What makes you think this is not a case of Swedish and American laws and/or cultures clashing? I do not think you have seen the agreement, and I do not think you have enough information to make a sound and unbiased judgement in this matter. You have a right to your own opinion, ofcourse, as long as you realize that they are just that - opinions. Not facts. Regards, -S - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
At 21:28 01-07-19, you wrote: the same time, a NuSphere-controlled mysql.org doesn't strike me as a disaster, provided they can do it with out shooting themselves in the foot, as they are doing now. Nah There using it as a marketing ploy to dup the public. The should have released their GPLed extentions on NuShpere.com rather than maysql.org, but they are unwilling to do this because they feel they have the right to be seen as the originators of MYSQL. I think you see evil people, conspiracies and other unwanted stuff when in fact there are only misunderstandings and opposing viewpoints. I'm with Bob Hall on this one. Excellent statement Bob! -S Hum... How many did actually *see* the original MySQL.org site? I have a really hard time seeing how there could be any kind of misunderstanding behind the way it was designed. (or not designed, rather.) /Göran Lovén database, table, mysql --- G. Lovén GL Design Information Technologies email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] web:http://www.gldesign.se
Re: mysql.org
Thomas J Keller wrote: The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that someone needs to offer the following observations: It is unfortunate that so many people within this community are so eager to assume the worst about a company, simply because they ARE a company. Not all corporations are Mickey$lu$h (I guess my biases in this regard are obvious), and not all corporate leaders are Bill Gates. Hello here is my observation: We the MySQL community are and have been treated exceptionally well and far beyond any other company I have heard of. What ticks us off is when our community is threatened by an organization posing to be the real thing. It's been a few months since I needed to visit the mysql web site. My heart dropped when I went to mysql.org and their was a new site were I had always gone for mysql. Then they wanted me to register. I figured the good old days of downloading mysql were gone and they sold out. I thought they were just like ORAC$$ and M$SQL. It wasn't until I searched the mailing list that I was able to find they were at mysql.com. Then I got ticked off for being betrayed ---or tricked. I use MySQL for personal use and do not have thousands of dollars to waste on a competitors sql server, nor the super computer needed to run those resource hogs. I think it is safe to say that we all feel like we are part of the MySQL project even though we are just end users. Better yet, MySQL is part of our lives. There is no freeware or shareware or GPL'ed software that even comes close to the PROFESSIONAL programming and support done by the MySQL team. I can do things with my C programming and MySQL that I could only imagine doing if MySQL didn't exsist as it does today. So, it wasn't that we were eager to assume the worst, but we felt our lively hood threatened right along side with MySQL AB. Some of us spend out lives at the keyboard. If they had a big bold statement on the top of their home page saying something like: We are supporting the MySQL community at mysql.com by offering commercial grade software bundles. Then right off the bat everyone would know: 1) they are not the real thing 2) you could go to mysql.com as you always did 3) if your boss or clients refuse to use gpl'd software then you might be able to talk them into getting this package. Then there would not have been the registration problem, nor the fee problem, and the only thing left would have been the domain name copyright and people probably wouldn't have gotten involved with it. John It's like that TV shopping channel that sent serious legal letters to every domain name that had a 3 letter match to their TV name and told them to stop using it. They said each domain name hurt their business and copyrights and bla bla bla. They took down many web sites. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
thought the list might want to know, this has been picked up by a trade magazine, I got a copy of interactive week in sail mail today. (In my best sarcastic voice)As they say in Hollywood Any Publicity is good as long as your spell the names right. Found a web version if any one wants a look. http://www.zdnet.com/intweek/stories/news/0,4164,2787146,00.html MJM database to make the filter happy - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
MYSQL.NET XMYSQL.COM MYSQLPHP.COM PHPMYSQL.COM MYSQL-PHP.COM MYSQLHOST.COM -S Aside from being incorrect about the process of tradmarking in the US and the ability to defend a trademark while awaiting registry, all these above websites are not claiming to be the official place to download and collaberate on MYSQL. Only mmysql.org is promoting itself as THE place to download the database program. Ruben - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
As you are aware, we are forming a not-for-profit corporation to focus on building and supporting a larger MySQL development community and promoting MySQL. The mysql.org domain is expected to be transferred to that organization. NuSphere has taken the lead and is covering the costs of forming this organization and expects it will take some time before it can operate on its own. We firmly believe that establishing a source of information independent of any for-profit corporation is an important step for the long term health of the MySQL community. We encourage you to reconsider your opposition and join us in supporting this effort. If the result of this would be 2 versions MySQL (MySQL AB and NuSphere MySQL) than it's unclear to me how the community can benefit. Although diskspace is not much of an issue but I would like to install both.. Although others might have their own opinion about this.. mysql.org looks A-LOT-LIKE mysql.com and it looks to me (and others I've spooken with) as if the mysql.org site is the official MySQL website.. It's great if NuSphere or any other starts a website with addons, tools, etc to be used with MySQL. But please don't start to confuse people.. I don't think the current mysql.org site is what MYSQL AB had in mind. I really hope the MYSQL AB and NuSphere people can come to a agreement.. Bye, B. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Werner is correct in encouraging all to make up your own mind. And, it is always possible that Orwellian DoubleSpeak is an ingredient of these public statements and posturing. But, a great distinction must be made here, and not tie the idea of DoubleSpeak to a fear of manipulation, unless you, the reader, allow it. DoubleSpeak is only truly dangerous in the Orwellian context, when there is a central authority, and where it can truly cause a veering away from the noble instincts of man. We are free here, the Net cannot be captured by a central authority (I hope), and Mr. Johnston has no power over me by virtue of this situation. My DoubleSpeak is just as weak as Mr. Johnstons DoubleSpeak, is just as weak as Werner's DoubleSpeak, because of the Net, because of things like Open Source and its principles. We are lucky to have this great mesh of communication, this Samizat right under our fingertips... We pay a price in certain ways, like having to eat spam three meals a day. I still consider it well worth it. Helas, I am an optimist. _jef _ Werner Stuerenburg wrote: table This statement/release was very ordinary, very normal, very to-the-point for any situation such as this. Condescending, no. Condescension, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Well, I didn't plan to give my opinion on this subject publicly. But, I was alerted by the last post of Mr. Johnston and am concerned about this interpretation I refer to. I have to admit that English is not my native language and I may miss a lot of meaning. But this is the situation of the MySQL people as well, and I know English good enough (and the art of negotiation and politics) to feel strongly what happens here. Incidentally, this morning I received a long elaboration about spam, written by a long-standing spam fighter. We all know that this subject is equally unpleasant. He closes his remarks with the following, which I think applies to the recent dialogue as well: I remember when I first read Orwell's 1984. The concept that really got my attention was DoubleSpeak. I thought he was really out there. Orwell was an optimist. Paul Myers, talkbiz.com Reread both of the posts of MySQL and nusphere in question and make up your mind. -- Herzlich Werner Stuerenburg _ ISIS Verlag, Teut 3, D-32683 Barntrup-Alverdissen Tel 0(049) 5224-997 407 · Fax 0(049) 5224-997 409 http://pferdezeitung.de -- Justin Farnsworth Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
It seems to me that the bottom line is that any outcome that results in there being a fork in the development of MySQL (with the result being two completely different types of MySQL), or in NuSphere retaining control of the mysql.org domain should be vehemently rejected by the MySQL community. No matter what agreement may or may not have been created, since MySQL AB has made it clear that this is not what they want or intended. So to me it is obvious that any agreement that may have been made is either being misinterpreted by NuSphere or was not entered in good faith. NuSphere, if what you want is an improved MySQL and if you have anything to contribute to the betterment of MySQL, hand over the code. If you want a non-profit Web site first turn over MySQL.org to MySQL AB and either register NuSphere.org for your non-profit site or help MySQL AB to get it started. If you want to make money on MySQL, follow the guidelines of GPL to the letter and to the approval of MySQL or pay the per-copy license. I guess the solution seems so simple for an outsider. -- Michael __ ||| Michael Collins ||| ||| Kuwago Web Services ||| mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ||| Seattle, WA, USA ||| http://www.lassodev.com - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org (comments to old messages)
Monty: You started MySQL as a database server derived from msql several years ago, and, you made it quick. You made it a bunch of other things, but, what's most important is that you made it quick. You made it stable. Quick is good. Stable is better. When both are paired, it's a pure win. This is YOUR contribution. Your development and any assistance you got from the community and crew. Take credit. It's yours. We might have given suggestions, but, you wrote the code. We use it. And, we love how it works. isam, mysam, gemini, bdb, etc., table implementations are meaningless unless we know what is behind it. What's useful to me is that I can start a new application using the same db engine I've used for 5 years and not have to worry that it's going to corrupt my data. I know the interfaces, and, the new features I can use. ISAM is fine, or MySAM. I'll program on the front. I love stability. What is Gemini? And, what will it do for my clients that MySQL hasn't done for the past 5 years using ISAM, or MySAM? Put that on the NuSphere.Org site (whoops; mysql.org site). I don't care. My clients want stability and speed and a development community they can trust and who's track record they can check. They already have it. That's how you, Sinisa, David, and crew (MySQL AB) put this stuff together. That's why we all stuck around. Because it's great stuff and we've built useful, stable, quick applications using it. And, you and Sinisa are always here. I don't know how you do it. Perhaps, because you know it has a credible future. I'd hope Progress could see the light. Best Regards, Van Regards, Monty PS: Thanks for all support. If anyone thinks I am unfair in any of the comments above, feel free to write privately to me about this and I will try to correct myself in future postings. It's quite hard to keep ones temper in check when one is burning with passion to defend oneself and the thing one has been part of creating. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org (comments to old messages)
http://www.nusphere.org Is available to register but I don't now why you would what to ;o).? Simon -Original Message- From: Van [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 17 July 2001 10:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: mysql.org (comments to old messages) Monty: You started MySQL as a database server derived from msql several years ago, and, you made it quick. You made it a bunch of other things, but, what's most important is that you made it quick. You made it stable. Quick is good. Stable is better. When both are paired, it's a pure win. This is YOUR contribution. Your development and any assistance you got from the community and crew. Take credit. It's yours. We might have given suggestions, but, you wrote the code. We use it. And, we love how it works. isam, mysam, gemini, bdb, etc., table implementations are meaningless unless we know what is behind it. What's useful to me is that I can start a new application using the same db engine I've used for 5 years and not have to worry that it's going to corrupt my data. I know the interfaces, and, the new features I can use. ISAM is fine, or MySAM. I'll program on the front. I love stability. What is Gemini? And, what will it do for my clients that MySQL hasn't done for the past 5 years using ISAM, or MySAM? Put that on the NuSphere.Org site (whoops; mysql.org site). I don't care. My clients want stability and speed and a development community they can trust and who's track record they can check. They already have it. That's how you, Sinisa, David, and crew (MySQL AB) put this stuff together. That's why we all stuck around. Because it's great stuff and we've built useful, stable, quick applications using it. And, you and Sinisa are always here. I don't know how you do it. Perhaps, because you know it has a credible future. I'd hope Progress could see the light. Best Regards, Van Regards, Monty PS: Thanks for all support. If anyone thinks I am unfair in any of the comments above, feel free to write privately to me about this and I will try to correct myself in future postings. It's quite hard to keep ones temper in check when one is burning with passion to defend oneself and the thing one has been part of creating. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Re: Open Invitation to NuSphere and Progress NuSphere accepts MySQL AB's invitation to discuss resolution of our business issues. NuSphere and MySQL AB have already spoken via phone and confirmed discussions will commence on Friday, July 20th. NuSphere would welcome a fresh approach by MySQL AB to resolving these issues. The public postings and attempts to incite the community were not in the best interest of MySQL. We would welcome a productive dialog rather than a public campaign. NuSphere requests that MySQL AB continue discussions in the tone and spirit of the invitation. The pattern that has taken place over the past several months of extreme action by MySQL AB, followed by overtures for negotiation, continues to damage the trust needed to establish the further agreements that MySQL AB seeks. We note that public statements have been made after the invitation, statements that are not in the spirit of the invitation. During our discussions commencing Friday, we are willing to address the issue of delaying legal proceedings. MySQL AB must understand that its strong and very public statements denying the validity of the agreement we entered into on June 21, 2000, denying the rights granted to use MySQL related trademarks, and now denying the financial and technical contributions that NuSphere has made to MySQL, all underscore the need to seek legal enforcement of our rights. Any delay that NuSphere could agree to would require that MySQL AB show restraint and a spirit of cooperation in its ongoing public statements. As you are aware, we are forming a not-for-profit corporation to focus on building and supporting a larger MySQL development community and promoting MySQL. The mysql.org domain is expected to be transferred to that organization. NuSphere has taken the lead and is covering the costs of forming this organization and expects it will take some time before it can operate on its own. We firmly believe that establishing a source of information independent of any for-profit corporation is an important step for the long term health of the MySQL community. We encourage you to reconsider your opposition and join us in supporting this effort. The Gemini storage manager is now available under the GPL license via mysql.org. The new Gemini table handler, storage manager, and the existing MyISAM table handler provide the most scalable and reliable version of MySQL ever. This release completes the commitment NuSphere made and we jointly announced in January 2001 when our relationship was strong. Gemini as released under the GPL provides all the support for transactions, row level locking and crash recovery essential for building commercial applications. MySQL AB is encouraged to incorporate this significant contribution to the MySQL server sources to eliminate concerns about a fork. Regrettably MySQL AB cut off NuSphere's prior direct access to make those changes. NuSphere is a major sponsor of the OSCON 2001 conference and intends to heavily promote MySQL at the event. NuSphere has organized a MySQL track to further promote MySQL on both a technical and business level at the conference. NuSphere continues to support the formation of a noncommercial organization. All of these demonstrate the strength and depth of our commitment to the MySQL community. Your willingness to return to resolving our issues in a business-like fashion would be welcome. Sincerely, Britt Johnston CTO, NuSphere Corporation -- D. Britton Johnston 603-578-6707 Nashua Chief Technology Officer 781-280-4954 Bedford NuSphere Corporation 781-280-4600 Main 14 Oak Park 781-280-4646 Fax Bedford, MA 01730 www.nusphere.com - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Again, Mr. Johnston, NuSphere shows very poor public relations abilities. Adopting such a condescending tone toward MySQL AB, to which, Sir, you must understand, you are completely indebted for everything that you have and are, will further alienate you from the supporters of MySQL. NuSphere's encroachment upon MySQL has nothing short parricidal qualities about it. And, I'm sure you'll find, those others of us who are indebted to MySQL AB and their efforts, will come to the defense of their beleaguered parent. MySQL can and eventually WOULD have developed the functionalities NuSphere introduced -- perhaps over a longer course of time -- but inevitably just the same. Don't you realize that the most ardent and loyal adherents of MySQL are so precisely because MySQL is open source and that we have nothing but contempt for any commercial endeavour that would attempt to engulf and overwhelm its open source parent? How dare you make the following disparaging and condescending comments -- with such an air of superiority and haughtiness. You should approach MySQL AB with a sense of humility, and with suppliant tones, as befits and inferior and a child before a superior or a parent. The public postings and attempts to incite the community were not in the best interest of MySQL. We would welcome a productive dialog rather than a public campaign. The pattern that has taken place over the past several months of extreme action by MySQL AB, followed by overtures for negotiation, continues to damage the trust needed to establish the further agreements that MySQL AB seeks. We note that public statements have been made after the invitation, statements that are not in the spirit of the invitation. Your willingness to return to resolving our issues in a business-like fashion would be welcome. - Original Message - From: Britt Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: Re: mysql.org Re: Open Invitation to NuSphere and Progress NuSphere accepts MySQL AB's invitation to discuss resolution of our business issues. NuSphere and MySQL AB have already spoken via phone and confirmed discussions will commence on Friday, July 20th. NuSphere would welcome a fresh approach by MySQL AB to resolving these issues. The public postings and attempts to incite the community were not in the best interest of MySQL. We would welcome a productive dialog rather than a public campaign. NuSphere requests that MySQL AB continue discussions in the tone and spirit of the invitation. The pattern that has taken place over the past several months of extreme action by MySQL AB, followed by overtures for negotiation, continues to damage the trust needed to establish the further agreements that MySQL AB seeks. We note that public statements have been made after the invitation, statements that are not in the spirit of the invitation. During our discussions commencing Friday, we are willing to address the issue of delaying legal proceedings. MySQL AB must understand that its strong and very public statements denying the validity of the agreement we entered into on June 21, 2000, denying the rights granted to use MySQL related trademarks, and now denying the financial and technical contributions that NuSphere has made to MySQL, all underscore the need to seek legal enforcement of our rights. Any delay that NuSphere could agree to would require that MySQL AB show restraint and a spirit of cooperation in its ongoing public statements. As you are aware, we are forming a not-for-profit corporation to focus on building and supporting a larger MySQL development community and promoting MySQL. The mysql.org domain is expected to be transferred to that organization. NuSphere has taken the lead and is covering the costs of forming this organization and expects it will take some time before it can operate on its own. We firmly believe that establishing a source of information independent of any for-profit corporation is an important step for the long term health of the MySQL community. We encourage you to reconsider your opposition and join us in supporting this effort. The Gemini storage manager is now available under the GPL license via mysql.org. The new Gemini table handler, storage manager, and the existing MyISAM table handler provide the most scalable and reliable version of MySQL ever. This release completes the commitment NuSphere made and we jointly announced in January 2001 when our relationship was strong. Gemini as released under the GPL provides all the support for transactions, row level locking and crash recovery essential for building commercial applications. MySQL AB is encouraged to incorporate this significant contribution to the MySQL server sources to eliminate concerns about a fork. Regrettably MySQL AB cut off NuSphere's prior direct access to make those changes. NuSphere
Re: mysql.org
, as befits and inferior and a child before a superior or a parent. The public postings and attempts to incite the community were not in the best interest of MySQL. We would welcome a productive dialog rather than a public campaign. The pattern that has taken place over the past several months of extreme action by MySQL AB, followed by overtures for negotiation, continues to damage the trust needed to establish the further agreements that MySQL AB seeks. We note that public statements have been made after the invitation, statements that are not in the spirit of the invitation. Your willingness to return to resolving our issues in a business-like fashion would be welcome. - Original Message - From: Britt Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: Re: mysql.org Re: Open Invitation to NuSphere and Progress NuSphere accepts MySQL AB's invitation to discuss resolution of our business issues. NuSphere and MySQL AB have already spoken via phone and confirmed discussions will commence on Friday, July 20th. NuSphere would welcome a fresh approach by MySQL AB to resolving these issues. The public postings and attempts to incite the community were not in the best interest of MySQL. We would welcome a productive dialog rather than a public campaign. NuSphere requests that MySQL AB continue discussions in the tone and spirit of the invitation. The pattern that has taken place over the past several months of extreme action by MySQL AB, followed by overtures for negotiation, continues to damage the trust needed to establish the further agreements that MySQL AB seeks. We note that public statements have been made after the invitation, statements that are not in the spirit of the invitation. During our discussions commencing Friday, we are willing to address the issue of delaying legal proceedings. MySQL AB must understand that its strong and very public statements denying the validity of the agreement we entered into on June 21, 2000, denying the rights granted to use MySQL related trademarks, and now denying the financial and technical contributions that NuSphere has made to MySQL, all underscore the need to seek legal enforcement of our rights. Any delay that NuSphere could agree to would require that MySQL AB show restraint and a spirit of cooperation in its ongoing public statements. As you are aware, we are forming a not-for-profit corporation to focus on building and supporting a larger MySQL development community and promoting MySQL. The mysql.org domain is expected to be transferred to that organization. NuSphere has taken the lead and is covering the costs of forming this organization and expects it will take some time before it can operate on its own. We firmly believe that establishing a source of information independent of any for-profit corporation is an important step for the long term health of the MySQL community. We encourage you to reconsider your opposition and join us in supporting this effort. The Gemini storage manager is now available under the GPL license via mysql.org. The new Gemini table handler, storage manager, and the existing MyISAM table handler provide the most scalable and reliable version of MySQL ever. This release completes the commitment NuSphere made and we jointly announced in January 2001 when our relationship was strong. Gemini as released under the GPL provides all the support for transactions, row level locking and crash recovery essential for building commercial applications. MySQL AB is encouraged to incorporate this significant contribution to the MySQL server sources to eliminate concerns about a fork. Regrettably MySQL AB cut off NuSphere's prior direct access to make those changes. NuSphere is a major sponsor of the OSCON 2001 conference and intends to heavily promote MySQL at the event. NuSphere has organized a MySQL track to further promote MySQL on both a technical and business level at the conference. NuSphere continues to support the formation of a noncommercial organization. All of these demonstrate the strength and depth of our commitment to the MySQL community. Your willingness to return to resolving our issues in a business-like fashion would be welcome. Sincerely, Britt Johnston CTO, NuSphere Corporation -- D. Britton Johnston 603-578-6707 Nashua Chief Technology Officer 781-280-4954 Bedford NuSphere Corporation 781-280-4600 Main 14 Oak Park 781-280-4646 Fax Bedford, MA 01730 www.nusphere.com - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL
Re: mysql.org
Britt: I've read all of the posts regarding the controversy between MySQL AB and NuSphere. Not being a participant, I can't know all the details of your relationship with MySQL AB, so I can only judge this in light of my own dealings with them. Michael Widenius and David Axmark have always conducted business with us (we are an OEM) with the utmost integrity. If you take the long view, the one thing that is clear here is that the parties involved, at the minimum, didn't have a clear understanding of what they apparently thought they understood. I wouldn't be concerned about this being discussed here on the list. After all, we are talking about Open Source. Gerald Jensen - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
[permission to come aboard, sql database query table] Gerald R. Jensen wrote: I wouldn't be concerned about this being discussed here on the list. After all, we are talking about Open Source. Gerald Jensen - Right, Mr. Jensen. My historical bent takes me further. I consider this entire matter socially historical. This is something like Open Source Legal Settlement. For some reason, probably relating to the deep appreciation of the principle of Open Source, both parties are airing their dispute before us, unwittingly a jury of sorts... The only mechanism currently available for remedy in our civilization is the Law, but it is facinating to observe that both parties are striving to their utmost to retain the respect of this entire community. That says something. _jef -- Justin Farnsworth Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: MySQL.org
I hate to differ with you here, John... but please check the following URL and notice the price tag on it -- http://www.redhat.com/products/software/linux/7-1_standard.html RedHat is betting on, correctly so, that users in general will not spend the time and effort to download over 100 meg of data, burn their own CD and then install the OS from it. This particular package also sells for $49.95 at my local Office Depot. It's perfectly legal to make CD collections of GPL'd software, which is why RedHat does it. What I was pointing out is that they are using the income from this to further increase the distribution network. If RedHat was only available from one website, wasn't advertised on major internet sites, wasn't in my local office supply store -- do you really think it would have taken the market share it has? I think it best for both parties involved that agreements get made and made quickly. All of the correspondence I've seen from NuSphere indicates they are more than willing to release the Gemini code GPL. They are simply stating that the mySQL side of the world will have to establish the resources to distribute it. Of course they will continue to sell their commercially supported version of the software, and mySQL AB should be happy for that. Does mySQL AB not do the same? Each installation of their $495 package is one more user not using Oracle or MSSQL. It's time to stop the name-calling and work out a way for both companies to profit from mySQL's success. John Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linux has gotten itself out of the hackers domain into the mainstream due to the commercial investments of companies like RedHat and Caldera, both of which sell the GPL product at a profit, including their own enhancements to it. Sorry, you are wrong again. Their profits come from Training and Certification, Support and Consulting. Even so the source code is available for download which is not the case with Gemini ___/ - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
BAUMEISTER Alexandre writes: Michael, It's years now that I use Mysql, post/read the mailing list, try to help you solving bugs, testing new features (like InnoDB currently). Why ? Because I really like Mysql, GPL licence and the way you work ! What NuLsphere is doing is really disgusting and I really understand how much you are upset, considering the hard work you did, that someone else could try to take advantage of your work that way. I'm sure that we are really numerous to understand what NuLsphere is doing and to be behind you in this 'fight' against vermin. May the force be with you :) Regards, Alex. Alex, As Monty is on two-day flight from Australia to Finland, I would like to thank you very much for your support. By support I do not just mean this mail, but all nice things that you do ... -- Regards, __ ___ ___ __ / |/ /_ __/ __/ __ \/ /Mr. Sinisa Milivojevic [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /|_/ / // /\ \/ /_/ / /__ MySQL AB, FullTime Developer /_/ /_/\_, /___/\___\_\___/ Larnaca, Cyprus ___/ www.mysql.com - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Hi, Sorry.. can't keep my mouth shut.. A few comments on the legal matter: GPL has been spoken about more then enough here.. Trademark: If no license or agreement exists which allows nusphere to use MYSQL AB's trademark it's probably illegal. One could think of situations where it might be perfectly legal.. MYSQL AB must act otherwise MYSQL AB will probably loose the right to use their trademark and the right to defend it againts others. Having a word in a domainname that corresponds with a trademark does not always mean you're in violation of a trademark.. one might have obtained a license to use the trademark.. or one might have a trademark of their own with the word MYSQL and not violate any trademark.. This is in a nutshell how most laws I've seen work. I studied a few laws which have to do with intellectual property.. NOTE: I did use the word probably quite often.. It's not always sure.. If I look at the mysql.org website it looks to me like I found the home of MySQL. This is what most visitors which are unfamiliar with MySQL might or will think. It's a very thin line.. I know.. If nushere want to provide the mysql community with addons or enhancements.. why can't that be done via mysqladdons.com (if that one is still free).. Or even via mysql.org but without attempting to look like the home of MySQL.. I don't think it's generally a good idea to split a community amongst several websites.. having multiple lists and such.. just my 2 cents.. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Justin Farnsworth Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 4:56 AM Hassan: I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that such a site would spread confusion and give discredit to MySQL. I think it is a fine distinction to say the (slight?) difference between mysql.com and mysql.org would lead to confusion. Are you confused by the extant mysql.net? What about xmysql.com? There have been arguments by both parties that these so-called support sites are in everyone's interest. This practice is common, just think of linux-help.com/linux-support.com/linux-this-or-that.com ad infinitum, and all these play in certain niches without necessarily confusing the linux user, or to-be linux user. I see one HUGE difference between these support sites and .net, in regards to .com: Every one but .net clearly state that this is a product of MySQL AB, tell people about and make very explicit links mysql.com. I came across mysql.org through a search engine some days before this discussion exploded. I, too, wondered why there was no mention of the people behind the web page, what the intent of the page was, etc. One thing I did notice, though, was that not mention AT ALL was made of either MySQL AB or mysql.com. This is still the case today. While people may download the software and documentation, they are completely cut off from the existing community @ .com. I am in no position to discuss the technical merits or legal issues concerning the NuSphere debacle in this context; As such, my point of view is limited to the fact that I see .org as an attempt to pull people away from/split up the community surrounding .com. I wonder why anyone would consider this a bright idea. / Carsten -- Carsten H. Pedersen keeper and maintainer of the bitbybit.dk MySQL FAQ http://www.bitbybit.dk/mysqlfaq - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Guus, Thanks for your good suggestions. Some clarifications below. Guus Leeuw jr. wrote: From: Dipl.-Inf. Guus Leeuw jr. Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 03:21:32 +0200 -Original Message- From: Marten Mickos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] cut /cut serious Our interpretation is that even under the interim agreement, the operation by NuSphere of mysql.org would have been a trademark violation. Then, Marten, tell us what the status is of the trademark application? Under way, finished, or in the mail as suggested by the other post from Sander Pilon? The MySQL trademark is registered in Sweden and 13 other countries. In the US, the registration has been filed and we are awaiting registration. When we started to use the MySQL mark in the mid-90's it had not been used earlier as far as we can tell. As a side note, this was before the now so popular MyYahoo and MySAP etc. trademarks were taken into use. Monty has told me that he got a lot of criticism for choosing such a silly name. People said it is only toys that carry such names, referring to My Little Pony. And yes, if Britt would agree, you might post documents like the interim agreement and the termination thereof. Of course, this would involve posting the journal of the faxed termination, and a statement from Britt that NuSphere actually received it. Fax communication sometimes don't work... (An aspect sofar not discussed...) I believe it is Lorne Cooper, President of NuSphere that needs to agree. I do not know where the fax thing came from, because the letter referring to the termination was delivered by our lawyers (iIt was the interim agreement from June 2000 that was faxed by David Axmark to Progress). And I would off the top of my head remember that NuSphere responded to it. Marten Mickos CEO MySQL AB - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
I see one HUGE difference between these support sites and .net, in regards to .com: Every one but .net clearly state that this is a product of MySQL AB, tell people about and make very explicit links mysql.com. The impression I get from the .org site, is that they are promoting a product called MySQL, and that MySQL AB (found at mysql.com) is a different product all together. This, is in my opinion is simply not on. I have been using MySQL for many years and I am now wondering if there actually is a difference between MySQL and MySQL AB simply because mysql.org are implying such a fact. Their web site is also giving me the impression that they are responsible for the development of MySQL.I know Nusphere have given both time and money to the development of MySQL but I really don't think it quite justifies building a web site with the intention of deceiving users that may not know the full history of MySQL. I'm no lawyer but I would say that the content on mysql.org is very misleading and should be changed, pronto. Another thing that concerns me greatly, is that almost every page on mysql.org contains the word free. Too much use of the word free, to me, sends big time warning signals. Kind regards, Andy. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Andy, a clarification below Andy Woolley wrote: I see one HUGE difference between these support sites and .net, in regards to .com: Every one but .net clearly state that this is a product of MySQL AB, tell people about and make very explicit links mysql.com. The impression I get from the .org site, is that they are promoting a product called MySQL, and that MySQL AB (found at mysql.com) is a different product all together. This, is in my opinion is simply not on. I have been using MySQL for many years and I am now wondering if there actually is a difference between MySQL and MySQL AB simply because mysql.org are implying such a fact. Their web site is also giving me the impression that they are responsible for the development of MySQL.I know Nusphere have given both time and money to the development of MySQL but I really don't think it quite justifies building a web site with the intention of deceiving users that may not know the full history of MySQL. NuSphere is not and was not participating in the development of the MySQL server, which always has been in the hands of Monty at MySQL AB. NuSphere's development effort goes into the Gemini component and other software (I hope this is a fair statement, and NuSphere is welcome to comment and elaborate on it). I'm no lawyer but I would say that the content on mysql.org is very misleading and should be changed, pronto. Another thing that concerns me greatly, is that almost every page on mysql.org contains the word free. Too much use of the word free, to me, sends big time warning signals. Kind regards, Andy. Marten Mickos MySQL AB - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Just to clarify the U.S. trademark point raised here ... The fact that it is in the mail, in progress, or whatever is really immaterial. It is not at all unusual for the formal application for trademarks, service marks, patents, copyrights, etc. to come months or even years after the product's introduction. According to my Patent Attorney, you are generally protected so long as you can demonstrate proof of 'first use' in the event of a dispute or contest by another applicant. For example, my company introduced a product in April of 1998 at a trade show, but didn't start the wheels in motion to secure the trademark until a few months ago (lawyers cost $$$!). Among the exhibits our attorney is filing with our application is a trade publication reporting on the show where our product was mentioned and copies of literature and logos we used. Monty, David and their associates can point to mountain of magazine articles, trade publications, websites, etc. to prove their claim of first use. In the same vein ... they must aggressively pursue their disagreement with NuSphere. Failure to take legal action to protect a trademark or service mark would be serious mistake, and could result in them losing any protections they would otherwise have. Gerald Jensen database,sql,query,table - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Monty et al and fellow list people, I've been following this thread with interest for the last couple days, have read all the postings (unfortunate flames included), and my opinion has generally been: well, there's been an unfortunate break down in communication between MySQL and NuSphere, I'm sure it's just a mis-understanding, and it'll get sorted out amicably soon. Then I actually went and looked at the mysql.org site. Now I find I must strongly agree with what Andy Wooley wrote: At 15:05 +0100 2001/07/15, Andy Woolley wrote: The impression I get from the .org site, is that they are promoting a product called MySQL, and that MySQL AB (found at mysql.com) is a different product all together. This, is in my opinion is simply not on. I have been using MySQL for many years and I am now wondering if there actually is a difference between MySQL and MySQL AB simply because mysql.org are implying such a fact. Their web site is also giving me the impression that they are responsible for the development of MySQL.I know Nusphere have given both time and money to the development of MySQL but I really don't think it quite justifies building a web site with the intention of deceiving users that may not know the full history of MySQL. I'm no lawyer but I would say that the content on mysql.org is very misleading and should be changed, pronto. I got very much the same impression. Let me expand a bit... 1. it makes sense for an 'Open Source' project to have a .org TLD, many of them do. 2. on the Home page it says: - its a center for free downloads, information and communication, as well as all the files you need to build applications based on MySQL, the #1 open source database. - mySQL.org offers easy access to the best binaries and source available to database programmers. - For those willing to help maintain the code, documentation, or support resources, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] - For those of you interested in getting other sites or books added to our list of MySQL resources, please send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Then, at the bottom, it says that it's not affiliated with some company called 'MySQL AB.' Nowhere does it say that 'MYSQL AB' *is* MySQL: the company that has created, developed, promoted, and is the *owner* of the MySQL database engine. It looks very much like 'MySQL AB' is some other company that happens to have a similar name, especially considering that most people will know it simply as MySQL, not by the formal 'MySQL AB.' So it would be very easy for a recent arrival to assume that mysql.org is *the* MySQL site -- there's really nothing telling them otherwise. The creators of the mysql.org site did not go to any effort to make the situation clear -- on the contrary, it seems to step very carefully *around* mentioning that MySQL is someone else's property. Something like this doesn't happen by accident and, legal-babble aside, these are, quite simply, not the actions of one who's respectful of other's work and property, and not the actions of one who's dedicated to open communication and a win/win partnership. I find it dishonourable. It leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth. /Robert Alexander Ob. MySQL content: database, sql, query, table ~ Robert Alexander~~ Programmer/Analyst/DBA/Admin WWW Database Applications~~http://www.ra1.net Web Software and Hosting ~~ http://www.workmate.ca The edifice of civil rights has degenerated into a naked spoils system. ... laws have come close to outlawing undesired thought. The iron rule of political correctness has distinct resemblance to Soviet-style social control. Much of this is imposed less by the official government than by the meta- government of academia, media, and Hollywood. Yet it's there. -- Fred Reed - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
re: mysql.org
Well, I have gone and looked more closely at mysql.org. I am forced to confess that I find several disheartening features at this site. I am unwilling at this juncture to typify these issues as deliberate or ill-intentioned, but I will say that NuSphere needs to make a concerted, immediate effort to resolve these points. 1) While they do point out that they are not affliated, and provide a link to MySQL AB, they do not state why this is relevant, or why someone might WANT to go to MySQL AB. 2) They do not explicitly claim to be the developers of MySQL, but they also do not explicitly state that they are not. While experienced MySQL users would recognize this fact, new-comers or persons searching for information in support of a product decision would most likely not recognize that distinction. 3) The tone and content of the requests for participation and assistance in development do suggest that participating in the NuSphere mysql.org development effort is identical to participating in MySQL development, which is clearly not the case. In my opinion, Nusphere needs to take the following actions immediately: 1) Explicitly and prominently identify on their front page, the ownership of the MySQL trademark as belonging to MySQL AB, and point at the mysql.com website. 2) Clearly delineate the difference between NuSphere MySQL and MySQL, on the front page, and prominently. 3) Cause their site not to resemble mysql.com in any way related to design or format. 4) NuSphere needs to clarify the extent and nature of their investments in MySQL. Investment in their inhouse products does not qualify as investment in the MySQL server product. Monies paid to MySQL AB, subject to the details of whatever agreements said monies were paid under, may qualify. None of these are onerous, and doing these things will go a long way to putting NuSphere back into good graces with this community and with the folks at MySQL AB. As a separate issue, I will offer my comments re: the domain name/trademark dispute: It is my opinion that regardless of what rights NuSphere may believe, correctly or otherwise, they have to the use of the MySQL trademark, that the only honorable and acceptable action for them to take is to transfer the domain name to MySQL AB immediately. This is a matter of ethics and courtesy (and good PR), not legality. As for the issue of trademark infringement and protection, it is true that failure to take appropriate legal action to defend a trademark can, and sometimes does, lead to loss of legal protection for that trademark. This being the case, NuSphere and MySQL AB need to work up a written agreement which asserts that the trademark MySQL does explicitly belong to MySQL AB, and that NuSphere formally acknowledges that ownership. Such an agreement gives MySQL AB proof of defense, which is their largest single concern (in my interpretation). The actual use of the trademark by NuSphere is an issue that should be settled betwen NuSphere and MySQL, or in the courts, if that unfortunate necessity arises. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
1) While they do point out that they are not affliated, and provide a link to MySQL AB, they do not state why this is relevant, or why someone might WANT to go to MySQL AB. Hmmm.. The NuSphere people may not be saying very much on this list, but they're certainly listening in on what's being said! The reference to MySQL AB was not there when I started this discussion of missing links to the .com site 6 hours ago, and judging from the HTTP header and the timestamp of your mail, you hit their site just 10-15 minutes after their last update of the front page. I, for one, am happy to see that this sort of discussion *does* lead to changes being made. I must say that I am very impressed with the level of the discussion in this thread. Though many feel an emotional attachment to the One and only MySQL, people such as Justin and Jeremy have helped keeping everybodys heads up above the murky waters of flames and sticking very close to the facts, trying to unravel what's going on - very unlike e.g. the discussions taking place on /. Kudos also to the MySQL team for following up very fast on questions regarding what has been communicated between them and the NuSphere people, leaving no-one to try and guess the facts. / Carsten -- Carsten H. Pedersen keeper and maintainer of the bitbybit.dk MySQL FAQ http://www.bitbybit.dk/mysqlfaq - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 07:59:14AM -0700, Michael Collins wrote: Thank you, Michael, for accidentally posting this. :) At 3:10 AM -0400 7/14/01, Britt Johnston wrote: Well, what a mess. It is regretable that this legal issue needs to be aired so publically that was certainly not my preference. I also will not get into a flame war, it is not in the best interest of mysql. I appreciate all the email I've received with advice and/or support - thanks. It is important that everyone realize that there is a legal agreement that both Monty and David personally signed that provides NuSphere broad rights around the use of the MySQL name. That agreement also allows NuSphere to release MySQL under the GPL license forever and print and distribute the manual. We paid significant money to Monty and David in exchange for that agreement which was central to forming NuSphere. This is public record. NuSphere has created a public image problem for itself, and seems to be oblivious to it. I haven't seen the agreement between NuSphere and MySQL AB. I assume that it was signed by both parties in good faith. I assume that each party is astonished at the other party's interpretation of their agreement. The contract was signed, if I recall correctly, in Bedford MA, so the laws of the state of MA will apply. I don't know anything about business law in MA, but I know that American common law uses the principle that a contract is not binding unless both parties provide something of value. I know what NuSphere was supposed to privide under the contract: $2.5 million. What MySQL AB was supposed to privide in return has never been explained. I know that in reality NuSphere paid ~$350,000. I have no idea what it received in return, if anything. However, MySQL AB has made the following claims about the agreement, and NuSphere hasn't denied the claims: 1) It was an interim agreement. An interim agreement that gave one party rights to another party's trademark even after the two parties failed to negotiate a permanent agreement would be somewhat unusual. 2) The agreement called for NuSphere to pay MySQL AB $2.5 million. Only slightly over 10% of the money was paid. Normally, one party cannot enforce the terms of a contract if they themselves have failed to fulfill its terms. 3) MySQL AB has informed NuSphere that the agreement is terminated. NuSphere has not explained why it believes the contract is still in force. Please consider these facts when you try to understand NuSphere's rights and motivations - we actually worked hard to get the details in writing before we even started the company and we paid real money. It is under this agreement that we believe we have a clear right to use mysql.org. See above. This right isn't clear to anyone except NuSphere. MySQL AB's right to the trademark is clear to everyone. Now it appears there is a need by MySQL AB to characterize that agreement as no longer in effect - I hope you can respect the fact that NuSphere believes it is fully in effect and we wish to continue to abide by it. This is the central issue and public debate will not resolve it. No, but NuSphere's public statements influence our perception of the matter. NuSphere has not explained why an interim contract whose terms NuSphere didn't fulfill is still in force. (The last sentence describes the perception NuSphere has created. I have no idea if it describes the reality.) As far as mysql.org goes, what NuSphere would like to see is a non-profit organization running that site - we have been consistent in this desire for over a year, but it has been opposed by Monty and David. I discussed this with Monty as recently as a few weeks ago in June and July and as always he was not interested - I appreciate he is entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to believe that it is time to take this step in the MySQL community. I invite all those who are skeptical to join mysql.org and be part of its formation. I think mysql.org is dead in the water unless you can persuade developers that you have a right to the name and the site serves some useful purpose. Under present circumstances, mysql.org is doing NuSphere more harm than good. [BTW, the first community action was to get rid of the registration requirement at the site - it is no longer required for downloading files rather it is a membership registration only now.] As far as NuSphere's contribution to MySQL, it is disappointing to see our efforts discounted so quickly. At a minimum there are specific bug fixes, features, and language statements focused around transaction support in the server that are in MySQL due to NuSphere's efforts in cooperation with Monty. The Gemini table handler itself is already part of MySQL and is licensed under the GPL - go find ha_gemini.cc and you will see it we checked it in long ago in V4 and again in 3.23 when V4 was late. The Gemini component itself will
RE: mysql.org
Well, what a mess. It is regretable that this legal issue needs to be aired so publically that was certainly not my preference. I also will not get into a flame war, it is not in the best interest of mysql. I appreciate all the email I've received with advice and/or support - thanks. It is important that everyone realize that there is a legal agreement that both Monty and David personally signed that provides NuSphere broad rights around the use of the MySQL name. That agreement also allows NuSphere to release MySQL under the GPL license forever and print and distribute the manual. We paid significant money to Monty and David in exchange for that agreement which was central to forming NuSphere. This is public record. Please consider these facts when you try to understand NuSphere's rights and motivations - we actually worked hard to get the details in writing before we even started the company and we paid real money. It is under this agreement that we believe we have a clear right to use mysql.org. Now it appears there is a need by MySQL AB to characterize that agreement as no longer in effect - I hope you can respect the fact that NuSphere believes it is fully in effect and we wish to continue to abide by it. This is the central issue and public debate will not resolve it. As far as mysql.org goes, what NuSphere would like to see is a non-profit organization running that site - we have been consistent in this desire for over a year, but it has been opposed by Monty and David. I discussed this with Monty as recently as a few weeks ago in June and July and as always he was not interested - I appreciate he is entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to believe that it is time to take this step in the MySQL community. I invite all those who are skeptical to join mysql.org and be part of its formation. [BTW, the first community action was to get rid of the registration requirement at the site - it is no longer required for downloading files rather it is a membership registration only now.] As far as NuSphere's contribution to MySQL, it is disappointing to see our efforts discounted so quickly. At a minimum there are specific bug fixes, features, and language statements focused around transaction support in the server that are in MySQL due to NuSphere's efforts in cooperation with Monty. The Gemini table handler itself is already part of MySQL and is licensed under the GPL - go find ha_gemini.cc and you will see it we checked it in long ago in V4 and again in 3.23 when V4 was late. The Gemini component itself will be released via mysql.org as GPL as previously announced - note that Gemini itself is not a derivative of MySQL in any way - it's roots date back to long before MySQL existed. Finally independent of the rest of this. I have the highest respect for Monty and what he has done creating MySQL. I'm certain we can move beyond this and make MySQL an even stronger open source project and I encourage everyone move to a constructive dialog. Britt -- D. Britton Johnston 603-578-6707 Nashua Chief Technology Officer 781-280-4954 Bedford NuSphere Corporation 781-280-4600 Main 14 Oak Park 781-280-4646 Fax Bedford, MA 01730 www.nusphere.com - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 03:10:34AM -0400, Britt Johnston wrote: Well, what a mess. It is regretable that this legal issue needs to be aired so publically that was certainly not my preference. I also will not get into a flame war, it is not in the best interest of mysql. I appreciate all the email I've received with advice and/or support - thanks. It is good to see some discussion taking place here. Perhaps it will help make the issues a bit clearer to the folks who have been wondering what they heck is going on (that's the majority of the community). As far as NuSphere's contribution to MySQL, it is disappointing to see our efforts discounted so quickly. I don't think that folks are discounting your efforts. In many cases, folks knew little of what NuSphere had really done to date. The Gemini table handler itself is already part of MySQL and is licensed under the GPL - go find ha_gemini.cc and you will see it we checked it in long ago in V4 and again in 3.23 when V4 was late. The Gemini component itself will be released via mysql.org as GPL as previously announced - note that Gemini itself is not a derivative of MySQL in any way - it's roots date back to long before MySQL existed. There's another source of confusion for people. The difference between the Gemini table handler and the Gemini component itself. What is the difference? (I think I might know, but I suspect that it's not clear to folks who haven't heard you talk about Gemini in person.) Finally independent of the rest of this. I have the highest respect for Monty and what he has done creating MySQL. A sentiment we all share. And some (many?) of us realize that NuSphere has a done some incredible work in an effort to take MySQL up a notch. NuSphere's talent and responsiveness was clear to me during the Gemini beta program. I'm certain we can move beyond this and make MySQL an even stronger open source project and I encourage everyone move to a constructive dialog. I suspect that in the short term, the legal battles are likely to become less interesting to this community than: * Being presented with the mysql.org site and not understanding where it came from, who runs it, and why they should go there. * The affects that this will have on the community. Are there going to be separate mysql.org hosted mailing lists which overlap in funtionality and audience with those hosted here? * Will it become less clear where users should go for information, documentation, downloads, and so on? * Understanding the differences between NuSphere's MySQL and MySQL AB's MySQL distributions. I know that they are relatively few now, but will that continute to be the case? Who knows. Those are the sort of concerns which motivated my statements in the MySQL press release a few days ago. I think that the MySQL community today is excellent--one of the best surrounding any piece of Open Source software today: Linux, FreeBSD, Perl, Apache, PHP, Python, MySQL, etc. They all have great communities. None of us want to see the community sidetracked, fragmented, or otherwise damaged as a result of this. Having read about the old XEmacs fork from GNU Emacs, that sort of stuff doesn't sound pleasant. We have a great forum for discussion right here. I'd suggest that when feasible, folks should talk to the community. Find out what folks here think about having a new/different web site, forked code, or whatever may be brewing. Unlike slashdot, folks here are apt to think before writing the first thing that pops into their heads. Given that this mailing list has been a large part of the MySQL community, it'd be great to see folks from NuSphere on it in a while. Jeremy (trying not to fuel any fires) -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 349-7878 Fax: (408) 349-5454 Cell: (408) 685-5936 -- NEW MySQL 3.23.29: up 28 days, processed 213,565,627 queries (88/sec. avg) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Jeremy Zawodny wrote: [== snip, snip ==] Jeremy: You should be complimented for giving us a measured and rational posting on this potentially emotional issue. And also, it is good that Britt has clearly stated his understanding, though perhaps a bit too late to have prevented one of those common socialogical phenomena, the perception that sombody or a Company is somehow exploiting Open Source with its train of reactions: - NuSphere is a dirty bunch of guys - Monty is being screwed - et cetera ad infinitum Personally, I could care less about the mysql.org domain issue. I, more or less, see it just as another kind of ex-officio site supporting some Open Source effort. I cannot see why it would lead to confusion as to who is leading the MySQL development, as the information presented on the site makes everything very clear. But, somehow, possession of this domain is important to both of the disputing parties for reasons only known best to them. I think in the long run, to the community, the more sites/domains dedicated to the promotion of MySQL, the better. As for NuSphere being perceived as violating the GPL, it appears that they have just not handled it very well in their, er, PR, as, if the NuSphere exposed position is taken on face value, namely they have submitted their changes, but the community has not been really made aware of this because of the complex relationship between NuSphere/MySQL which, also, was not made clear by either party until recently. For me, this is a tempest in a teapot, mostly due to the silence of NuSphere on the mechanism of complying with the GPL and the details of NuSphere's position on the domain issue. In summary, with 20-20 hindsight, NuSphere has probably handled its PR badly, and now they are suffering for it. _jef -- Justin Farnsworth Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Justin, I very much agree with your compliment to Jeremy for his posting. Some notes on your posting follow. At 14/07/01 14:03 +0200, Justin wrote: Personally, I could care less about the mysql.org domain issue. I, more or less, see it just as another kind of ex-officio site supporting some Open Source effort. I cannot see why it would lead to confusion as to who is leading the MySQL development, as the information presented on the site makes everything very clear. Yes, now the mysql.org site is much clearer. At the time of our press announcement, the site looked different. The infringement of our trademark in the name of the site has not been cured, however. But, somehow, possession of this domain is important to both of the disputing parties for reasons only known best to them. I think in the long run, to the community, the more sites/domains dedicated to the promotion of MySQL, the better. To be specific: MySQL AB does not oppose the existence of community websites. On the contrary, we encourage them. But we are opposed to violations of our trademark and other rights, to the lack of identification of the people/organisations behind it or affiliated with it , and to anybody requiring registration before allowing downloading of our GPL software. The identification issue has now been fixed on mysql.org, and we are happy about that move, and Britt said in his recent posting that the registration issue has been fixed. We now look forward to seeing the intellectual property issues cured as well. As for NuSphere being perceived as violating the GPL, it appears that they have just not handled it very well in their, er, PR, as, if the NuSphere exposed position is taken on face value, namely they have submitted their changes, but the community has not been really made aware of this because of the complex relationship between NuSphere/MySQL which, also, was not made clear by either party until recently. I would say violating the GPL and submitting their changes are two different things (and maybe you would, too). Regarding the GPL violation we state the following: NuSphere is and has been shipping a product that includes the MySQL server under GPL and the Gemini component, with the Gemini component statically linked to the MySQL server. The source code of Gemini or a written offer to provide it is not included in the package, wherefore this constitutes a violation of GPL. When it comes to submitting changes there might be more than one discussion threads, and I might not personally be aware of all of them. I'll try to cover those that I believe are relevant and hope I cover what you intended. First thread: In case somebody thinks so, it is NOT possible to cure a GPL violation by submitting source code to MySQL AB. The source code or the written offer has to be in the product that is delivered to customers. Second thread: We at MySQL AB have not refused to accept Gemini source code into the tree, nor have we required transfer of copyright of it to us, or shared copyright (if anybody thought so). Third thread: There was a situation where NuSphere asked us to include in the MySQL server a crypting function that had been developed by a third party (not NuSphere, not MySQL AB). In the absence of shared copyright for us to the piece of code in question, we refused to take it in. This is a principle we have been following always, and it is followed by other open source companies as well, and by the Free Software Foundation (FSF). I hope the above adds clarity. Marten Mickos CEO MySQL AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
Britt == Britt Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since Monty is travelling for 30 hours or so (from Australia) I will answer this. Britt Well, what a mess. It is regretable that this legal issue Britt needs to be aired so publically that was certainly not my Britt preference. I also will not get into a flame war, it is not in Britt the best interest of mysql. I appreciate all the email I've Britt received with advice and/or support - thanks. It was not our will to make the legal issue into a Public debate either. But you chose to mention the legal stuff to a journalist. I wont comment on everything in this email to avoid extra escalation. Britt It is important that everyone realize that there is a legal Britt agreement that both Monty and David personally signed that Britt provides NuSphere broad rights around the use of the MySQL Britt name. That agreement also allows NuSphere to release MySQL Britt under the GPL license forever and print and distribute the Britt manual. We paid significant money to Monty and David in Britt exchange for that agreement which was central to forming Britt NuSphere. This is public record. There WAS an interim agreement from June 2000 to be replaced within 3 months by a final agreement. We have confirmed to NuSphere in writing the termination of the interim agreement. It has not been in force for some time. Also I was the only one who signed (not Monty) it and sent it by fax (we where in a hurry). When it was in force, the interim agreement did NOT provide NuSphere broad rights to use the MySQL name and it did not grant any licenses forever. Under the agreement, Progress paid a total of USD 312,501 with the last check being cut in September 2000. See http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html for more information on this. And about the right to distribute under the GPL. I remember very well asking you why this paragraph was in the agreement. I thought it was stupid to add a right to distribute the GPL version of MySQL under the GPL. You said is was just something your lawyers wanted even if it was just stating a right everyone had. Of course any GPL software can be distributed by anyone as long as the GPL terms are followed. But we might choose to put a future version under a different license (free-software/open source compatible of course!) and we never granted you the right to distribute NEW versions of MySQL under the GPL ver 2 forever. And just like anybody in the whole world you can distribute any new version that we license under the GPL if you follow the requirements of the GPL. Britt Please consider these facts when you try to understand Britt NuSphere's rights and motivations - we actually worked hard to Britt get the details in writing before we even started the company Britt and we paid real money. It is under this agreement that we Britt believe we have a clear right to use mysql.org. You never ever had right to operate MySQL.org Britt Now it appears there is a need by MySQL AB to characterize that Britt agreement as no longer in effect - I hope you can respect the Britt fact that NuSphere believes it is fully in effect and we wish Britt to continue to abide by it. This is the central issue and Britt public debate will not resolve it. It was a interim agreement and has also been officially terminated. Britt As far as mysql.org goes, what NuSphere would like to see is a Britt non-profit organization running that site - we have been Britt consistent in this desire for over a year, but it has been Britt opposed by Monty and David. I discussed this with Monty as Britt recently as a few weeks ago in June and July and as always he Britt was not interested - I appreciate he is entitled to that Britt opinion as I am entitled to believe that it is time to take Britt this step in the MySQL community. I invite all those who are Britt skeptical to join mysql.org and be part of its formation. Why do you want us to be non-profit and you to be for profit? Can't you operate it as NuSphere.org? What you have wanted in the past is that MySQL AB should give up its copyright to MySQL and turn it over to a foundation more like Apache that has small commercial interests. Since I and Monty had a commercial business idea when we started MySQL in 94-95 that was not what we wanted. Since MySQL AB distributes EVERYTHING it develops under GPL/LPGL or Public domain licensing we already have a community site. If you want to set up another one, you are free to do so, but you must not use our name for it. We know that MySQL.com is not yet all what it could be. But we have worked on fixing this and we very recently showed our portals that will be the basis of much more easily navigable information on MySQL. Check them out (http://www.mysql.com/portal). If you want to help please help us include everything MySQL related here with comments and ratings! If you wan to help you can send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Britt [BTW, the first community action was to get rid
Re: mysql.org
David Axmark wrote: Britt == Britt Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since Monty is travelling for 30 hours or so (from Australia) I will answer this. [== snip, snip ==] WOW! Does everyone realize what is going on here? I don't know, I consider this stuff historic. Perhaps, at least to this quasi-agnostic observer, Open Source Legal Resolution has been invented by accident. I find it interesting that facts are coming out, two parties are at least tending to converge on a legal remedy in a gentlemanly manner in the forum of great pressure as exerted by the highly-interested MySQL community. One has seen already the removal of the download registration requirement on the NuSphere site, something that was technically meaningless in a strict legal sense, but perceived as onerous by the Community as representing some kind of insult to Open Source or designed for imagined sinister motives. One has seen the modification of the NuSphere site to gain clarity as to the identity of the MySQL developer(s), heretofor apparantly obscure. One has seen already the clarification by MySQL AB that the existence of ex-officio support sites for MySQL are encouraged, not confusing, and good for all, but that the mysql.org site is, technically, only a trademark issue, in their eyes. One has seen a convergence to the real nub, visible to all of us interested observers, that the remedy for GPL violations is not satisfied by late compliance or other possibly-obscure methods of compliance. One has seen a revelation of a lot of things behind the scenes that are perceived as a violation of the GPL and, usually, to the general member of the Open Source Community, may be complex, such as static linking, the idea of shared copyright, the mutual interpretation of the agreement process between the two parties, et cetera. Both parties are now letting everything hang out... One has seen a complete stake-out of all necessary legal positions of both parties out-in-the-open that would be necessary in any discovery process, and, as a humorous aside comment, almost pre-empts the necessity of having legal councel prior to going before the judge. By some quirk, we have become the court and jury of judgement that both parties feel the need to convince, and cannot ignore. This is very interesting, this Open Source Legal Resolution ;-) _jef -- Justin Farnsworth Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Britt Johnston wrote: As far as mysql.org goes, what NuSphere would like to see is a non-profit organization running that site - we have been consistent in this desire for over a year, but it has been opposed by Monty and David. I discussed this with Monty as recently as a few weeks ago in June and July and as always he was not interested - I appreciate he is entitled to that opinion as I am entitled to believe that it is time to take this step in the MySQL community. I invite all those who are skeptical to join mysql.org and be part of its formation. Britt -- D. Britton Johnston Britt: Why is it necessary to create such a site? What is Progress' goal in doing so? MySQL.com, despite David's disclaimer that it isn't perfect is enormously useful. This list's value is immeasurable. I might see value in a gemini.lists.mysql.com entity, or gemini.mysql.com, if your db is compelling. I've heard gemini adds value, but, don't know what that added value might be. I programmed in Progress 6 years ago and found it ... interesting. Not bad; but, certainly interesting. I don't know if Progress looks more like SQL since my use of it, but, I doubt we're talking about Progress in those terms any more. I wouldn't know. I've been working with MySQL for the past 4 years and plan to continue doing so. FWIW, I always thought Progress was a competent product, and, in my past used it with huge success. So, I've always felt good about it. I was very excited last year when Progress announced MySQL support. This message from you is very encouraging. I'm impressed with it's candor and even tone. It's been a rough week for you and the people you work with, I'm sure. I doubt anyone here wants to see a dissolution of Nusphere and MySQL's relationship. Speaking for myself only, I'd like to see MySQL content/discussions stay where they are, and, development efforts continue to be maintained/announced for the core MySQL application at mysql.com, and, if there's any value in a mysql.org portal for issues extraneous to the core of mysql, fine, but, with a name that doesn't dilute the MySQL trademark. Hope you and the principles at MySQL can find common ground and move in a constructive direction. Monty and crew deserve a positive outcome to this issue. Best Regards, Van -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
re: mysql.org
Alright. I have received Mr. Johnson's permission to share the email response he made to me. it is included herewith for informational purposes without comment or prejudice: cut here NOTE: personal opening comments removed for brevity mysql.org has not been publically announced and it will take some time for it to become the thriving community it is destined to be. My hope is that rather than fighting it, you can join it and be part of an even more vibrant mysql community. It is disappointing that our friends from MySQL AB seem threatened by the creation of noncommercial site to promote mysql that they jump in and announce it themselves to the world and claim they were not informed. The facts are they were informed and invited to participate, their response is what you have read. You mention specifically that you believe we have no right to the domain name. The facts are that we believe we have a right under an agreement that was signed by both Monty and David that provided us with broad rights to mysql related names. In fact we paid a significant sum of money for the ability to use those names and other items and that same agreement in fact required MySQL to be released under the GPL. Now that MySQL AB has taken on venture capital funding and hired new management, they want to ignore those agreements. Your comments about us not participating in any meaninful fashion in the open source community are disappointing because it means NuSphere has not done a good job communicating its work, I believe we provide a significant service and have allowed many people who otherwise could not use open source software to use it because of our work on improving windows ports, integration of components, and major features. We contribute back fixes and improvements to many open source communities including apache, perl, php and mysql. Much of that work is available at no cost through downloads at our website. I'd invite you to download and try NuSphere MySQL and see an example of what we have done. The importance of our investment is reflected in Monty's own words: NuSphere has identified a very important technical enhancement needed to transform MySQL into an enterprise-enabled database capable of competing with commercial heavyweights, said Michael Monty Widenius, chief technology officer of MySQL AB. In MySQL's five-year history, this is the most significant contribution from a source outside MySQL AB that has ever occurred. We also support the community by sponsoring and helping organize events such as the OSCON 2001 with O'Reilly, Open Source Database Summit with OSDN, and the Linux Legacy through Geek Cruises to name a few. We are proud of the significant investment we make in these areas so that the open source community can meet and learn from each other face to face. As we said last January, we planned on Gemini being released under an open source license as part of the launch of MySQL 4.0, but that release has not shipped so we have decided to release the source through mysql.org instead soon after its launch (the community needs to setup CVS to support that effort). Note that Gemini has both commercial and open source licenses just like MySQL itself and the products we are currently shipping are provided with a commercial license of Gemini. We absolutely believe we have the right to do this. In closing, I hope you will take a moment to see things from our perspective and understand that we want a strong mysql community as strong as apache or php and one that is not controlled by a single commercial company. Thanks for your time, Britt... -- D. Britton Johnston 603-578-6707 Nashua Chief Technology Officer 781-280-4954 Bedford NuSphere Corporation 781-280-4600 Main 14 Oak Park 781-280-4646 Fax Bedford, MA 01730 www.nusphere.com cut here - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
In response to the posting by Thomas J Keller of Britt Johnston's text, I feel I have to come with the following comments. (The quoted text marked with is by Britt Johnston) mysql.org has not been publically announced and it will take some time for it to become the thriving community it is destined to be. My hope is that rather than fighting it, you can join it and be part of an even more vibrant mysql community. We do not oppose communities that form around a common interest in our product. But we do mind if our trademark is used without authorisation. So we are not fighting the community, we are fighting the violations of our rights. Is there any reason for not operating the site under the nusphere.org name or some other name? It is disappointing that our friends from MySQL AB seem threatened by the creation of noncommercial site to promote mysql that they jump in and announce it themselves to the world and claim they were not informed. The facts are they were informed and invited to participate, their response is what you have read. The last sentence is untrue. MySQL AB was not invited, nor informed of this. The last record we have that relates to mysql.org is from early June when we asked NuSphere to transfer the domain to us, and Lorne Cooper replied that NuSphere refuses to do so. He also noted that NuSphere had not populated the site. We do not oppose any creation of a concommercial site to promote the MySQL server. But we do mind ... (see my comment above). You mention specifically that you believe we have no right to the domain name. The facts are that we believe we have a right under an agreement that was signed by both Monty and David that provided us with broad rights to mysql related names. In fact we paid a significant sum of money for the ability to use those names and other items and that same agreement in fact required MySQL to be released under the GPL. Now that MySQL AB has taken on venture capital funding and hired new management, they want to ignore those agreements. There WAS an interim agreement from June 2000 to be replaced within 3 months by a final agreement. We have confirmed to NuSphere in writing the termination of the interim agreement. It has not been in force for some time. For the records, it was only David Axmark who signed it and faxed it to Progress. Progress or NuSphere have never sent us a version with their signatures. When it was in force, the interim agreement did NOT provide NuSphere with broad rights to use the MySQL name. Under the agreement, Progress paid a total of USD 312,501 with the last check being cut in September 2000. See http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html for more information on this. The comment by Britt on vc funding and new management is under the belt in my opinion. Your comments about us not participating in any meaninful fashion in the open source community are disappointing because it means NuSphere has not done a good job communicating its work, I believe we provide a significant service and have allowed many people who otherwise could not use open source software to use it because of our work on improving windows ports, integration of components, and major features. We contribute back fixes and improvements to many open source communities including apache, perl, php and mysql. Much of that work is available at no cost through downloads at our website. I'd invite you to download and try NuSphere MySQL and see an example of what we have done. I would hope the discussion could stay away from topics of this sort. We appreciate and respect many things NuSphere, and Britt personally, have done. The importance of our investment is reflected in Monty's own words: NuSphere has identified a very important technical enhancement needed to transform MySQL into an enterprise-enabled database capable of competing with commercial heavyweights, said Michael Monty Widenius, chief technology officer of MySQL AB. In MySQL's five-year history, this is the most significant contribution from a source outside MySQL AB that has ever occurred. MySQL AB is not trying to devalue the investment in Gemini. But there are people who believe that NuSphere or Progress paid MySQL AB $2.5 million and that NuSphere is somehow part of the MySQL server development team, none of which is true. Therefore we have communicated that the development of the MySQL server is done by and funded by MySQL AB alone. We also support the community by sponsoring and helping organize events such as the OSCON 2001 with O'Reilly, Open Source Database Summit with OSDN, and the Linux Legacy through Geek Cruises to name a few. We are proud of the significant investment we make in these areas so that the open source community can meet and learn from each other face to face. This is fine, and nobody wants to take that pride away from NuSphere. However, from our perspective this is not related to the
Re: mysql.org
Marten Mickos wrote: In response to the posting by Thomas J Keller of Britt Johnston's text, I feel I have to come with the following comments. (The quoted text marked with is by Britt Johnston) mysql.org has not been publically announced and it will take some time for it to become the thriving community it is destined to be. My hope is that rather than fighting it, you can join it and be part of an even more vibrant mysql community. We do not oppose communities that form around a common interest in our product. But we do mind if our trademark is used without authorisation. So we are not fighting the community, we are fighting the violations of our rights. Is there any reason for not operating the site under the nusphere.org name or some other name? Now on this point, in consideration of the assertions of a temporary agreement which MySQL AB asserts to have formally terminated, NuSphere would appear to be violating MySQL AB's trademark. Marten's question regarding another name is quite proper. Unless NuSphere can provide solid evidence that there is a current formal agreement in force at this time, my opinion (humble, not huble, or otherwise *grin*) is that NuSphere should post-haste transfer mysql.org to MySQL AB. This is a sticky legal point, since both parties would appear to have differing interpretations of the nature, term and status of any agreement between them. It is disappointing that our friends from MySQL AB seem threatened by the creation of noncommercial site to promote mysql that they jump in and announce it themselves to the world and claim they were not informed. The facts are they were informed and invited to participate, their response is what you have read. The last sentence is untrue. MySQL AB was not invited, nor informed of this. The last record we have that relates to mysql.org is from early June when we asked NuSphere to transfer the domain to us, and Lorne Cooper replied that NuSphere refuses to do so. He also noted that NuSphere had not populated the site. We do not oppose any creation of a concommercial site to promote the MySQL server. But we do mind ... (see my comment above). Another point where the two parties would appear to have differing interpretations of events. You mention specifically that you believe we have no right to the domain name. The facts are that we believe we have a right under an agreement that was signed by both Monty and David that provided us with broad rights to mysql related names. In fact we paid a significant sum of money for the ability to use those names and other items and that same agreement in fact required MySQL to be released under the GPL. Now that MySQL AB has taken on venture capital funding and hired new management, they want to ignore those agreements. There WAS an interim agreement from June 2000 to be replaced within 3 months by a final agreement. We have confirmed to NuSphere in writing the termination of the interim agreement. It has not been in force for some time. For the records, it was only David Axmark who signed it and faxed it to Progress. Progress or NuSphere have never sent us a version with their signatures. This is in essence the same differing interpretation problem as noted above. When it was in force, the interim agreement did NOT provide NuSphere with broad rights to use the MySQL name. Under the agreement, Progress paid a total of USD 312,501 with the last check being cut in September 2000. See http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html for more information on this. Well, in the face of radically different interpretations, I see a few possible ways to resolve this: First: take it to court. Potentially expensive, and probably not good for public relations for either party. Second: (and I fully note that there could be any number of valid and compelling reasons for either or both parties to find this suggestion untenable) post the text of the agreement here, for the community to peruse. This suggestion carries with it an implicit expectation that the parties would be expected to abide by the opinion of the community (assuming an overwhelming majority interpret the agreement one way over another). Third: NuSphere could, in the interests of peace within the community, transfer the domain name to MySQL AB, and MySQL AB could back off the GPL violation issue (this presumes that NuSphere brings themselves into compliance with GPL immediately). Intent is an important issue here. It is entirely possible that NuSphere understood their procedures to be in compliance with GPL, and that MySQL believes them not to be, with both parties acting in good faith. NuSphere can confirm their good faith by accepting that their release is problematic and rectifying the situation immediately. MySQL AB can confirm their good faith by accepting this gesture and relenting on the GPL licensing issue. The comment by Britt on vc funding
RE: mysql.org
This is very interesting, this Open Source Legal Resolution ;-) Indeed it is. The thing I find most interesting, and a bit scary, is the way people seem to pick sides. For example - vermin, scum, obscure, are just a few of the words recently used to describe the likes of NuSphere. (And to the surprise of many, including myself, that includes our beloved Mr. DuBois.) And people base their opinions on what!? The statements of the opposing party. Did people verify the claims of MySQL and NuSphere? Was there an agreement? Was it, indeed, interim? Is a termination sent by fax even legal? Does MySQL even hold the US trademarks? (Answer: No, not yet as far as the online trademark searchengine is concerned - their application is in the mail.) An open conflict like this is indeed interesting, but people have based and will be basing their opinions on a distorted or incomplete picture of the whole conflict, because by nature, statements by two fighting parties are biased and should not be trusted until verfied true. This is a dangerous game to play, and the side with the best PR team / largest fanbase will always win the favor of the public. (See: Microsoft product sales figures.) Accepting that NuSphere employees are the spawn of the devil just because MySQL (or anyone else) says they are is not something I'm prepared to do. Where I live people are innocent until *proven* guilty, and so far there has been little real proof. Just both sides of a story, but little proof that can be easily verified by 3rd parties. Don't get me wrong here. The fact that there is a conflict at all means that someone, somewhere did something wrong. But it is most likely not a simple case of a good guy / bad guy. I just hope that people can post their comments in a rational way, without jumping to conclusions too fast. (Just what Mr. DuBois said a few posts back.) And about the domain - I think that MySQLs claim on the .ORG domain is a lot weaker then they want us to believe. (no US trademark YET, no attempt to gain control of the .NET and .ORG for the past years with the excuse 'friendly' people controlled them, etc) BUT, I still think that NuSphere should give it up. For the following reasons: 1) It was just launched, it does most likely not have a real large userbase yet, so changing it now would be relatively simple and cheap. 2) It is confusing. (The .COM/.ORG stuff) 3) Someday soon, MySQL will probably be granted their US trademarks, and when that happens it will be pried out of their hands. Since we're talking about a non-profit site, the fees that NuSphere is going to have to pay to lawyers to defend themselves would basically a waste of money. Is the .ORG domain worth that much to NuSphere? 4) It pisses off MySQL AB. Clearly it's in their best interest to be friends with MySQL AB. 5) Although MySQLs pressrelease (on MySQL.COM, Slashdot, etc) telling people NOT to visit MySQL.ORG probably had the effect that the site had more visitors then ever before (*1), it still was in a somewhat negative way they came to that site. Getting rid of the domain might get rid of some nasty memories of some potential clients. (*1 - who wouldn't want to see a real obscure website?! I only went to see MySQL.ORG after I saw MySQL AB's pressrelease. And with that thing posted on slashdot, my bet is that MySQL.ORG had a truckload of traffic most starting websites would be jealous of.) And last - 6) IMHO, two MySQL community sites is one too many. Why don't you guys play together? NuSphere stated they wanted to create a non-profit site, maybe ran by a 3rd party. MySQL AB said they wanted to expand their MySQL site. If you take a few steps back from this conflict then I'd see no reason not to cooperate. But then again, that's just me and my ?0.02 -S - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
re: mysql.org
The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that someone needs to offer the following observations: It is unfortunate that so many people within this community are so eager to assume the worst about a company, simply because they ARE a company. Not all corporations are Mickey$lu$h (I guess my biases in this regard are obvious), and not all corporate leaders are Bill Gates. Bring in business to make a profit is not a bad thing. One might note that David and Monty are in business to make a profit, and by their own statements, this was always their intent. Good on them! As has been pointed out by several people, including myself, some of the issues involved in this dispute are very tricky and difficult to understand, even if one had ALL the relevant information to hand. The fact is that very few (perhaps 3?) of the participants in this brouhaha have more than a modicum of real information available to them. There have been comments made by both parties which are arguably less than totally correct. There have also been many comments made that perhaps should not have been. Big surprise, with both money and pride involved, people get hot under the collar when others don't see things THEIR way! The people who tend to become involved heavily in the Open Source community are often highly opinionated (who, ME?!) and quick to form judgements. This can work against us as a community when it leads to the kinds of recrminations and attacks we have seen here. The unfortunate truth is that when millions or billions of dollars are on the line, and when highly sophisticated legal concepts such as intellectual property and licensing are involved, it often requires people with special training (OK, I'll say it: lawyers) to sort things out. It is important to realize also that all any lawyer can do is offer their opinion and interpretation of the law. Only the Courts can offer a final statement as to the actual meanings of laws, and even then, things are seldom clear cut. Remember that laws have no inherent validity or meaning. They are abstract intellectual creations dreamed up by human beings, and are subject to the inherent inefficiencies of language. I seriously doubt that anyone from either of these companies has any nefarious intentions. Although some things have been said on both sides which may turn out not to be true, I rather suspect that this is due to differences of opinion, coupled with a little anger, rather than intentional mendacity. So...the upshot of all this, I suppose is: cool off, everyone. Let's see if the folks at MySQL AB and NuSphere can resolve this to their mutual satisfaction. Above all, PLEASE, let's stop calling each other names. None of us are little children here. tom - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Thomas, thanks for your suggestions. A few clarifications below. Thomas J Keller wrote: Marten Mickos wrote: In response to the posting by Thomas J Keller of Britt Johnston's text, I feel I have to come with the following comments. (The quoted text marked with is by Britt Johnston) mysql.org has not been publically announced and it will take some time for it to become the thriving community it is destined to be. My hope is that rather than fighting it, you can join it and be part of an even more vibrant mysql community. We do not oppose communities that form around a common interest in our product. But we do mind if our trademark is used without authorisation. So we are not fighting the community, we are fighting the violations of our rights. Is there any reason for not operating the site under the nusphere.org name or some other name? Now on this point, in consideration of the assertions of a temporary agreement which MySQL AB asserts to have formally terminated, NuSphere would appear to be violating MySQL AB's trademark. Marten's question regarding another name is quite proper. Unless NuSphere can provide solid evidence that there is a current formal agreement in force at this time, my opinion (humble, not huble, or otherwise *grin*) is that NuSphere should post-haste transfer mysql.org to MySQL AB. This is a sticky legal point, since both parties would appear to have differing interpretations of the nature, term and status of any agreement between them. Our interpretation is that even under the interim agreement, the operation by NuSphere of mysql.org would have been a trademark violation. It is disappointing that our friends from MySQL AB seem threatened by the creation of noncommercial site to promote mysql that they jump in and announce it themselves to the world and claim they were not informed. The facts are they were informed and invited to participate, their response is what you have read. The last sentence is untrue. MySQL AB was not invited, nor informed of this. The last record we have that relates to mysql.org is from early June when we asked NuSphere to transfer the domain to us, and Lorne Cooper replied that NuSphere refuses to do so. He also noted that NuSphere had not populated the site. We do not oppose any creation of a concommercial site to promote the MySQL server. But we do mind ... (see my comment above). Another point where the two parties would appear to have differing interpretations of events. When we learned in June that NuSphere had registered the mysql.org domain and refused to sign it over to us, we started to routinely attempt to visit the site. It happened to be me personally who found the populated site on Monday 9 July. That is the first moment we were aware of the site having been populated and at no point have we been aware of any -plans- to populate it. I would very much want to learn how NuSphere claims we were informed and invited and when that would have happened. We have presented all evidence we have on this issue, and it would be time for NuSphere to do the reciprocal. If Britt can fill in on this, please do so. You mention specifically that you believe we have no right to the domain name. The facts are that we believe we have a right under an agreement that was signed by both Monty and David that provided us with broad rights to mysql related names. In fact we paid a significant sum of money for the ability to use those names and other items and that same agreement in fact required MySQL to be released under the GPL. Now that MySQL AB has taken on venture capital funding and hired new management, they want to ignore those agreements. There WAS an interim agreement from June 2000 to be replaced within 3 months by a final agreement. We have confirmed to NuSphere in writing the termination of the interim agreement. It has not been in force for some time. For the records, it was only David Axmark who signed it and faxed it to Progress. Progress or NuSphere have never sent us a version with their signatures. This is in essence the same differing interpretation problem as noted above. When it was in force, the interim agreement did NOT provide NuSphere with broad rights to use the MySQL name. Under the agreement, Progress paid a total of USD 312,501 with the last check being cut in September 2000. See http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html for more information on this. Well, in the face of radically different interpretations, I see a few possible ways to resolve this: First: take it to court. Potentially expensive, and probably not good for public relations for either party. Second: (and I fully note that there could be any number of valid and compelling reasons for either or both parties to find this suggestion
RE: mysql.org
-Original Message- From: Marten Mickos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] cut /cut serious Our interpretation is that even under the interim agreement, the operation by NuSphere of mysql.org would have been a trademark violation. Then, Marten, tell us what the status is of the trademark application? Under way, finished, or in the mail as suggested by the other post from Sander Pilon? (I don't know about US legal aspects here, but I'ld assume in the mail is rather different from finished...) morecuts /morecuts /serious halfwayserious And yes, if Britt would agree, you might post documents like the interim agreement and the termination thereof. Of course, this would involve posting the journal of the faxed termination, and a statement from Britt that NuSphere actually received it. Fax communication sometimes don't work... (An aspect sofar not discussed...) The track of needed documents will grow quite rapidly here. You might want a 3rd party, not-for-profit web site to publish it all. (Something like www.mysql-open-source-legal-resolution.org hosted by NuSphere *evilgrin*. This would be an application of broad name related usage rights...) /halfwayserious serious In any case, 1) Money always is the reason why a company is in business to do business. 2) As Tom DeMarco writes in one of his latest books, lawyers don't add much, since they cost money, take you out of your business, which is making money, and tend to destroy all good faith one would have for another. ... Not to disrespect either party, but I'm not to take a stand as I don't know any of the NuSphere products around MySQL. Take care of yourself, and eachother, Guus Short-time Mysql user. /serious PS: table, query, sql, database - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org - an extra 2 cents
Regarding the recent thread on NuSphere. ( Jeapardy style so you don't have to read it again) GPL violation or not, part of my decisions are always based on morals (hard to find these days). Anyone trying to capture an audience using anothers name is un-ethical and un-moral. My business decision will be made with this in mind. Sometimes it is not the best business decision but I can always live with it. Joel Nelson Gerald R. Jensen wrote: Monty: I was on the verge of authorizing the purchase of 3 copies of NuSphere's PHPEd package (US$300 each) for our developers when I became aware of the controversy surrounding 'Enhanced MySQL' and mysql.org. The purchase order went into the round file, and Hell will freeze over before I buy anything from NuSphere. A small gesture, perhaps, but an appropriate one. At least our company won't be contributing to their largess. Even people with such deplorable business ethics understand a loss of income from sales. [ snip, snip ===] Do not jump to the conclusion that I am starting out to be an apologist for NuSphere/Progress. It is wise to honor the old dictum Never ascribe malice to that which can be attributed to ignorance. I am not sure if this type of emotional leap is proper until a bit more information comes out and some of the heat dies down. There are always two sides to every situation. There are two issues, the domain mysql.org, and the other, more difficult to understand, the aspect of GPL violation. The domain/trademark issue will get settled by legal means and there is enough of a corpus of law precedent that a settlement and/or judgement will occur. I personally do not see such a great importance of mysql.org in this matter. Obviously, many of you on this list do not share this opinion. Now most of us in/using Open Source probably do not _really_ understand the meaning and ramifications of the GPL. We _think_ we know, and we certainly have a feeling about what the GPL means. Ironically, Richard Stallman's take is, in a legal sense, crystal clear compared with the GPL. NuSphere indicated that is was going to put their products under the GPL. They have indicated that Gemini will be GPL's. Are they to be punished for being late in doing so? NuSphere supports Open Source and is public on this position. The irony of this situation is that it _may_ be to the advantage of the Open Source community if NuSphere is not knee-jerked pilloried, and tarred and feathered out of the minds of the Open Source community. It is complete speculation upon my part that ultimately, MySQL will be replaced in all those embedded applications where Progress now sits. Though it may change in the near future, commercial developers needing an embedded database usually prefer a solution like Progress because of the Company-behind-it, rather than have MySQL. MySQL may/would gain credibility if Progress is replaced. Now, I hope this is all settled to everybody's benefit. It may not be possible because of emotion. But I know that I would personally like to see MySQL start to creep into large manufacturing management systems and other systems where Progress now has a significant hold. Then, and only then, will the community be able to easily tap into MySQL and offer better intranets, tools, and other solutions. So, I am suggesting to everyone to just wait and see. It might not be as bad as it seems... -- Justin Farnsworth - Technical Director Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Please check http://www.mysql.com/Manual_chapter/manual_toc.html; before posting. To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a message to the address shown in the List-Unsubscribe header of this message. If you cannot see it, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
community, open source, gpl, tld's.. these are long, long discussions, some pertinent, though not to this valuable list. i've read many opinions, respect some, but these are for lawyers, not hackers (in linus' sense of the word). nevertheless, there is a message for us nerds: let's keep it open!!! our greatest allies will be our peers, not some guys from legal. so, write decent code, open it wide, and rejoice. when this all started, i waited anxiously for monty's post. took me a while to digest it (may i suggest all of the involved in the whole discussion do so as well). my humble conclusion is: i'm really glad mysql ab is focused on development and training, and not on courts and deals. i believe many in our programming community feel the same. monty, keep it up!!! as north americans would say: mysql kicks some serious a**. btw: thank you so very much. warm regards to all mauricio portasio [EMAIL PROTECTED] sao paulo - brazil On Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 03:10:34AM -0400, Britt Johnston wrote: Well, what a mess. It is regretable that this legal issue needs to be aired so publically that was certainly not my preference. I also will not get into a flame war, it is not in the best interest of mysql. I appreciate all the email I've received with advice and/or support - thanks. It is good to see some discussion taking place here. Perhaps it will help make the issues a bit clearer to the folks who have been wondering what they heck is going on (that's the majority of the community). As far as NuSphere's contribution to MySQL, it is disappointing to see our efforts discounted so quickly. I don't think that folks are discounting your efforts. In many cases, folks knew little of what NuSphere had really done to date. The Gemini table handler itself is already part of MySQL and is licensed under the GPL - go find ha_gemini.cc and you will see it we checked it in long ago in V4 and again in 3.23 when V4 was late. The Gemini component itself will be released via mysql.org as GPL as previously announced - note that Gemini itself is not a derivative of MySQL in any way - it's roots date back to long before MySQL existed. There's another source of confusion for people. The difference between the Gemini table handler and the Gemini component itself. What is the difference? (I think I might know, but I suspect that it's not clear to folks who haven't heard you talk about Gemini in person.) Finally independent of the rest of this. I have the highest respect for Monty and what he has done creating MySQL. A sentiment we all share. And some (many?) of us realize that NuSphere has a done some incredible work in an effort to take MySQL up a notch. NuSphere's talent and responsiveness was clear to me during the Gemini beta program. I'm certain we can move beyond this and make MySQL an even stronger open source project and I encourage everyone move to a constructive dialog. I suspect that in the short term, the legal battles are likely to become less interesting to this community than: * Being presented with the mysql.org site and not understanding where it came from, who runs it, and why they should go there. * The affects that this will have on the community. Are there going to be separate mysql.org hosted mailing lists which overlap in funtionality and audience with those hosted here? * Will it become less clear where users should go for information, documentation, downloads, and so on? * Understanding the differences between NuSphere's MySQL and MySQL AB's MySQL distributions. I know that they are relatively few now, but will that continute to be the case? Who knows. Those are the sort of concerns which motivated my statements in the MySQL press release a few days ago. I think that the MySQL community today is excellent--one of the best surrounding any piece of Open Source software today: Linux, FreeBSD, Perl, Apache, PHP, Python, MySQL, etc. They all have great communities. None of us want to see the community sidetracked, fragmented, or otherwise damaged as a result of this. Having read about the old XEmacs fork from GNU Emacs, that sort of stuff doesn't sound pleasant. We have a great forum for discussion right here. I'd suggest that when feasible, folks should talk to the community. Find out what folks here think about having a new/different web site, forked code, or whatever may be brewing. Unlike slashdot, folks here are apt to think before writing the first thing that pops into their heads. Given that this mailing list has been a large part of the MySQL community, it'd be great to see folks from NuSphere on it in a while. Jeremy (trying not to fuel any fires) -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 349-7878 Fax: (408) 349-5454 Cell: (408) 685-5936 -- NEW MySQL 3.23.29: up 28 days, processed 213,565,627
RE: mysql.org
-Original Message- From: Marten Mickos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] cut /cut serious Our interpretation is that even under the interim agreement, the operation by NuSphere of mysql.org would have been a trademark violation. Then, Marten, tell us what the status is of the trademark application? Under way, finished, or in the mail as suggested by the other post from Sander Pilon? (I don't know about US legal aspects here, but I'ld assume in the mail is rather different from finished...) These are the two primary applications: http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serialentry=76253509 (MYSQL) New application assigned to an examining attorney for examination http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serialentry=78002299 (MYSQL) no final determination as to the registrability of the mark has been made. Other trademarks that are related: ENHANCED MYSQL(TM) OFFICIAL MYSQL(TM) (Tried looking for MAXSQL, but didn't find anything.) Real trademarks seem to have a status of Registered. But contact your local trademark attorney for the fineprint and other legal babble about what it all means. IANAL, So for all I know in the mail is good enough to claim it. Other sites that violate the trademark (not including obscure country-tlds): MYSQL.NET XMYSQL.COM MYSQLPHP.COM PHPMYSQL.COM MYSQL-PHP.COM MYSQLHOST.COM -S - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
First: take it to court. Potentially expensive, and probably not good for public relations for either party probably the only sentence that makes sense in this affaire from a mysql user point of view, nusphere's move is completely amateur i can't see any intelligent motivation for it, the existence of such a site will only spread confusion, bad press and discredit Mysql as well as open source in general , and oh, isn't nusphere's main stream business Open Source??? can someone from Nusphere explain it here the people from microsoft must be really pleased with this stuff At 01:25 15/07/01, Thomas J Keller wrote: Marten Mickos wrote: In response to the posting by Thomas J Keller of Britt Johnston's text, I feel I have to come with the following comments. (The quoted text marked with is by Britt Johnston) mysql.org has not been publically announced and it will take some time for it to become the thriving community it is destined to be. My hope is that rather than fighting it, you can join it and be part of an even more vibrant mysql community. We do not oppose communities that form around a common interest in our product. But we do mind if our trademark is used without authorisation. So we are not fighting the community, we are fighting the violations of our rights. Is there any reason for not operating the site under the nusphere.org name or some other name? Now on this point, in consideration of the assertions of a temporary agreement which MySQL AB asserts to have formally terminated, NuSphere would appear to be violating MySQL AB's trademark. Marten's question regarding another name is quite proper. Unless NuSphere can provide solid evidence that there is a current formal agreement in force at this time, my opinion (humble, not huble, or otherwise *grin*) is that NuSphere should post-haste transfer mysql.org to MySQL AB. This is a sticky legal point, since both parties would appear to have differing interpretations of the nature, term and status of any agreement between them. It is disappointing that our friends from MySQL AB seem threatened by the creation of noncommercial site to promote mysql that they jump in and announce it themselves to the world and claim they were not informed. The facts are they were informed and invited to participate, their response is what you have read. The last sentence is untrue. MySQL AB was not invited, nor informed of this. The last record we have that relates to mysql.org is from early June when we asked NuSphere to transfer the domain to us, and Lorne Cooper replied that NuSphere refuses to do so. He also noted that NuSphere had not populated the site. We do not oppose any creation of a concommercial site to promote the MySQL server. But we do mind ... (see my comment above). Another point where the two parties would appear to have differing interpretations of events. You mention specifically that you believe we have no right to the domain name. The facts are that we believe we have a right under an agreement that was signed by both Monty and David that provided us with broad rights to mysql related names. In fact we paid a significant sum of money for the ability to use those names and other items and that same agreement in fact required MySQL to be released under the GPL. Now that MySQL AB has taken on venture capital funding and hired new management, they want to ignore those agreements. There WAS an interim agreement from June 2000 to be replaced within 3 months by a final agreement. We have confirmed to NuSphere in writing the termination of the interim agreement. It has not been in force for some time. For the records, it was only David Axmark who signed it and faxed it to Progress. Progress or NuSphere have never sent us a version with their signatures. This is in essence the same differing interpretation problem as noted above. When it was in force, the interim agreement did NOT provide NuSphere with broad rights to use the MySQL name. Under the agreement, Progress paid a total of USD 312,501 with the last check being cut in September 2000. See http://www.mysql.com/news/article-75.html for more information on this. Well, in the face of radically different interpretations, I see a few possible ways to resolve this: First: take it to court. Potentially expensive, and probably not good for public relations for either party. Second: (and I fully note that there could be any number of valid and compelling reasons for either or both parties to find this suggestion untenable) post the text of the agreement here, for the community to peruse. This suggestion carries with it an implicit expectation that the parties would be expected to abide by the opinion of the community (assuming an overwhelming majority interpret the agreement one way over another). Third: NuSphere could, in the interests of
Re: mysql.org
hassan el forkani wrote: First: take it to court. Potentially expensive, and probably not good for public relations for either party probably the only sentence that makes sense in this affaire from a mysql user point of view, nusphere's move is completely amateur i can't see any intelligent motivation for it, the existence of such a site will only spread confusion, bad press and discredit Mysql as well as open source in general , and oh, isn't nusphere's main stream business Open Source??? can someone from Nusphere explain it here [== snip, snip ==] Hassan: I respectfully disagree with your suggestion that such a site would spread confusion and give discredit to MySQL. I think it is a fine distinction to say the (slight?) difference between mysql.com and mysql.org would lead to confusion. Are you confused by the extant mysql.net? What about xmysql.com? There have been arguments by both parties that these so-called support sites are in everyone's interest. This practice is common, just think of linux-help.com/linux-support.com/linux-this-or-that.com ad infinitum, and all these play in certain niches without necessarily confusing the linux user, or to-be linux user. Anyway, I cannot see this but a pure-and-simple trademark issue, as far as the mysql.org site name is concerned. _jef -- Justin Farnsworth Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: Re: mysql.org
Reposting because of annoying filter. On 15 Jul 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your message cannot be posted because it appears to be either spam or simply off topic to our filter. To bypass the filter you must include one of the following words in your message: database,sql,query,table If you just reply to this message, and include the entire text of it in the reply, your reply will go through. However, you should first review the text of the message to make sure it has something to do with MySQL. You have written the following: Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: They are releasing the produce for sale and it MUST be imediately released under the GPL. FTR, that obligation is to customers (or others) getting their binary packages. Something being GPLed doesn't force you to distribute it, it only gives you certain obligations if you do. -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Dear MySQL team, My University was considering to buy a number of licences of the enhanced MySQL(tm) from Nusphere. However, now, we all the University IT staff (managers, developers, designers, etc.) have decided to strongly go up against any commercial contact with such a robber company called Nusphere or mysql.org. We will make sure that our organisation will not have anything to do with mysql.org. We are happy with MySQL. We are using MySQL for development in many of our projects since 2 years ago and we have only good things to say about MySQL. Best regards, Santi Chumbe IT Services Heriot Watt University - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
Can't we pull the mysql.org domain from under them? Surely this breaches domain name usage? joel -Original Message- From: Michael Widenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 13 July 2001 06:39 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mysql.org Hi! Enhanced MySQL(tm) is as the words say a value-added version of MySQL available from NuSphere and is available as part of two products that contain NuSphere MySQL: NuSphere MySQL Advantage and NuSphere Pro Advantage (which also includes a really nice PHP IDE if you haven't seen it). Take a look at http://nusphere.com for more. As we have publically stated, we expect to release the source code for Gemini as part of MySQL V4, given the delay in releasing V4 we have decided to release gemini source via mysql.org as a way to kick off this new non-commercial community site formed for support of mysql. Take a look at http://mysql.org for more. Britt... -- D. Britton Johnston 603-578-6707 Nashua Chief Technology Officer 781-280-4954 Bedford NuSphere Corporation 781-280-4600 Main 14 Oak Park 781-280-4646 Fax Bedford, MA 01730 www.nusphere.com Those that have been on this email list a long time should know that I seldom lose my temper. The above email however went far beyond the limit I can stand. By acquiring, without our knowledge or approval, mysql.org and putting what they call a 'community' website on it, NuSphere has violated both the MySQL(tm) trademark and the copyright of MySQL AB. If we aren't hard on them, MySQL AB could lose a major part of our income, which we put into developing the MySQL(tm) server. I want to stress that to date, NuSphere has contributed nothing, no money or source, to the development of the MySQL(tm) server. What they have done instead is doing a fork of the MySQL distribution and making a non-open source distribution that clearly violates the GPL license. What NuSphere seems to be trying to do is to get people to approve of their fork, get more people to work on it, and cause confusion among MySQL users as to where the origin of the MySQL(tm) source and documentation is. What NuSphere has done indicates that they want to be regarded as being in the center of MySQL(tm) server development and use this as a leverage to push their commercial products that are not open source. The truth is that NuSphere has nothing to do with the development of the MySQL(tm) server. mysql.org doesn't provide anything significant that http://www.mysql.com wouldn't provide. Instead they are forcing people to register to be able to download anything. They are gathering names for reasons we can only guess. I have spent the last 6 years working on the MySQL(tm) server on average 10 hours per day, seven days a week. The other MySQL developers and I have personally helped tens of thousands of MySQL users with their problems and now NuSphere is trying to take that away from us. All the code in the MySQL(tm) server is either written by developers employed by MySQL AB (that's including me) or has been signed over to us by MySQL users as a thanks for what we have provided to them. If anyone has any comments about how we at MySQL AB work as an open source company, please write to our CEO Marten Mickos via [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we will welcome your suggestions. We are totally dependent on the trust of our users, as everything we do are open source, and we are trying hard to do everything in our power to make life easier for our users. We at MySQL AB have already taken the necessary legal steps to defend our rights. We would however need help from all MySQL users to properly defend ourselves. If you want to help us, please help us with the following: - If you now have a link in your website or browser to mysql.org because you think it is the authorized MySQL AB site, please consider pointing that link to www.mysql.com - Inform everyone you know about the true nature of mysql.org, - Send your honest comments about this unfortunate situation, and report all instances of confusion concerning mysql.org to us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you don't have time to fight for us, you can support us in this fight by purchasing a MySQL(tm) server license at https://order.mysql.com/ Please spread the word and thanks for the support! Monty CTO of MySQL AB Creator and Design Architect of the MySQL(tm) server code David Axmark MySQL AB, Co Founder and community building Mårten Mickos CEO of MySQL AB Mr. Matt Wagner MySQL AB, Herr Direktor Sasha Pachev MySQL AB, Full time developer Tim Smith MySQL AB, Full time developer Sergei Golubchik MySQL AB, Full time developer Anna Everlid MySQL AB, Full time Developer Ms. Ekaterina Shevchenko MySQL AB, Designer Miguel Angel Solórzano MySQL AB, Full time developer Tom Basil MySQL AB, Director Development Support Jeremy Cole MySQL AB, Full time developer Mr. Sinisa Milivojevic MySQL AB, FullTime Developer Jani Tolonen MySQL AB, Full time
Re: mysql.org
Hi Van, I have no experience with Progress software. Once, Progress must have seen their approach as the right way. That they sonner or later see a need to change, does not approved the way it is done. In short term, the clients for the NuSphere are already familiar with MySQL and subscribers to the mysql-email-listings - we have all access to Montys email from yesterday - and hopeful understand the issues and remain loyal. Actually it is the same channels NuSphere have used for spreading their message (and right now they are reading what we are writing). This is the best (only) current channel to the MySQL community. I will call on anybody having web-sites, where they provide software to MySQL, providing support or information, selling books or what so ever - to add an easy readable message to their website ... We support / contribute to the original MySQL initiative at www.mysql.com (or something like that) ... and by that make it clear to newcomers, that there are something to be aware of. Best regards Peter - Original Message - From: Van [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: PeterWR [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 7:06 AM Subject: Re: mysql.org PeterWR wrote: Then you can start wondering why one software company wants to promote open source by using another companys software - why is the Progress database not good enough for NuSphere ??? Best regards Peter Copnehagen Denmark Peter: Have your ever worked with Progress? It's ... interesting. It's like no other database system I've ever seen, and, it's hardly SQL-compliant. At least when I worked on Progress 6.0 in '98. Progress had much to gain by incorporating MySQL features and more-or-less SQL-compliant features/syntax. That's why the Progress database was possibly not good enough for NuSphere. Best Regards, Van -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
What really pisses me off about companies is when they steal ideas and blantly try and sell those ideas and don't think about what impact they will have on the Open Source community and the persons involved who dedicate their lives to developing fantastic software for people to use. I'm 101% behind MySQL.com, unfortunately with these scenerios if you don't go through the correct legal action channels, you'll end up making the situation worse. Perhaps a few DoS attacks? Just kidding.. ;) If only I knew how. :( Kevin - Original Message - From: Joel Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 9:50 AM Subject: RE: mysql.org Can't we pull the mysql.org domain from under them? Surely this breaches domain name usage? joel -Original Message- From: Michael Widenius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 13 July 2001 06:39 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mysql.org Hi! Enhanced MySQL(tm) is as the words say a value-added version of MySQL available from NuSphere and is available as part of two products that contain NuSphere MySQL: NuSphere MySQL Advantage and NuSphere Pro Advantage (which also includes a really nice PHP IDE if you haven't seen it). Take a look at http://nusphere.com for more. As we have publically stated, we expect to release the source code for Gemini as part of MySQL V4, given the delay in releasing V4 we have decided to release gemini source via mysql.org as a way to kick off this new non-commercial community site formed for support of mysql. Take a look at http://mysql.org for more. Britt... -- D. Britton Johnston 603-578-6707 Nashua Chief Technology Officer 781-280-4954 Bedford NuSphere Corporation 781-280-4600 Main 14 Oak Park 781-280-4646 Fax Bedford, MA 01730 www.nusphere.com Those that have been on this email list a long time should know that I seldom lose my temper. The above email however went far beyond the limit I can stand. By acquiring, without our knowledge or approval, mysql.org and putting what they call a 'community' website on it, NuSphere has violated both the MySQL(tm) trademark and the copyright of MySQL AB. If we aren't hard on them, MySQL AB could lose a major part of our income, which we put into developing the MySQL(tm) server. I want to stress that to date, NuSphere has contributed nothing, no money or source, to the development of the MySQL(tm) server. What they have done instead is doing a fork of the MySQL distribution and making a non-open source distribution that clearly violates the GPL license. What NuSphere seems to be trying to do is to get people to approve of their fork, get more people to work on it, and cause confusion among MySQL users as to where the origin of the MySQL(tm) source and documentation is. What NuSphere has done indicates that they want to be regarded as being in the center of MySQL(tm) server development and use this as a leverage to push their commercial products that are not open source. The truth is that NuSphere has nothing to do with the development of the MySQL(tm) server. mysql.org doesn't provide anything significant that http://www.mysql.com wouldn't provide. Instead they are forcing people to register to be able to download anything. They are gathering names for reasons we can only guess. I have spent the last 6 years working on the MySQL(tm) server on average 10 hours per day, seven days a week. The other MySQL developers and I have personally helped tens of thousands of MySQL users with their problems and now NuSphere is trying to take that away from us. All the code in the MySQL(tm) server is either written by developers employed by MySQL AB (that's including me) or has been signed over to us by MySQL users as a thanks for what we have provided to them. If anyone has any comments about how we at MySQL AB work as an open source company, please write to our CEO Marten Mickos via [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we will welcome your suggestions. We are totally dependent on the trust of our users, as everything we do are open source, and we are trying hard to do everything in our power to make life easier for our users. We at MySQL AB have already taken the necessary legal steps to defend our rights. We would however need help from all MySQL users to properly defend ourselves. If you want to help us, please help us with the following: - If you now have a link in your website or browser to mysql.org because you think it is the authorized MySQL AB site, please consider pointing that link to www.mysql.com - Inform everyone you know about the true nature of mysql.org, - Send your honest comments about this unfortunate situation, and report all instances of confusion concerning mysql.org to us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you don't have time to fight for us, you can support us in this fight by purchasing a MySQL(tm) server license at https://order.mysql.com/ Please spread the word
RE: mysql.org
I would like to whole heartedly add my support to this statement, I feel that Gerry has summed up perfectly everything I would like to say. We have been using MySQL for well over a year now and have found it to be a fast, reliable, efficient and scalable product. I happily recommend the use of it to colleagues and use it in my corporate work and when advising charities. The efforts of the developers shine through in the excellent performance of this product. It is sad to see people taking advantage of their efforts and I feel that MySQL AB has not in any way besmirched the principles of open source by taking the actions they have taken. best wishes and keep up the wonderful work, you are much appreciated Chris Dr Christopher Thorpe Information Architect GenomeBiology.com Middlesex House 34-42, Cleveland Street London W1P 6LB T 0207 631 9184 Whttp://genomebiology.com/ -Original Message- From: Gerry Sweeney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 7:15 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: mysql.org Monty and all at MySQL, I am sorry to hear about this most unfortunate situation. It is sad to see that NuSphere have taken it upon themselves to attempt to steal your intellectual property and try to benefit from all of the MySQL team's hard work. My company has been licensing using MySQL for development of our products for the past 18 months or so and I have had nothing but good things to say about MySQL. You are a credit to the open source community and I believe you have found the perfect balance with MySQL for both open source and commercial users. Your comments that you totally rely on the trust of your users is admirable and very much appreciated by many people I am sure. However, being the human race, there are always people that are going to take liberties and abuse such trust. I hope that your legal defence is swift and successful and does not cause too much disruption to your day to day business. As far as I am concerned, if NuSphere are selling a product derived from MySQL, then they should be paying MySQL.com a license fee to ensure that the professionals that are responsible for the creation of MySQL can continue to develop MySQL. We *embed* MySQL into our products and pay commercial license fees for the use of MySQL. Having dealt with MySQL at a commercial level, I can honestly say that, there is absolutely no excuse for what NuSphere have done. Your licensing policies have been totally fair, non-restrictive and realistic. Needless to say, You have our full support and rest assured I, or anyone who works at my company will not have anything to do with either mysql.org or NuSphere now or in the future. Kind Regards Gerry Sweeney Hornbill Systems Limited - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
PeterWR wrote: Hi Van, I have no experience with Progress software. Once, Progress must have seen their approach as the right way. That they sonner or later see a need to change, does not approved the way it is done. In short term, the clients for the NuSphere are already familiar with MySQL and subscribers to the mysql-email-listings - we have all access to Montys email from yesterday - and hopeful understand the issues and remain loyal. Actually it is the same channels NuSphere have used for spreading their message (and right now they are reading what we are writing). This is the best (only) current channel to the MySQL community. I will call on anybody having web-sites, where they provide software to MySQL, providing support or information, selling books or what so ever - to add an easy readable message to their website ... We support / contribute to the original MySQL initiative at www.mysql.com (or something like that) ... and by that make it clear to newcomers, that there are something to be aware of. Best regards Peter Peter: All valid insights. And, it's either fortunate, or unfortunate that the MySQL presence is so higly watched. All our comments are siphoned into google, yahoo, and altavista as a matter of course. The legacy of postings on this list has created that process. We should feel somewhat validated by that process. Useful things will be mirrored. A good thing, I'd think; including/especially discussion groups. The trademark issue is alarming. It will cause some problems, but, suggestions such as yours will alleviate the problem over time, and, this will pass. I was extremely encouraged by Monty's response to this whole thing. He's such a humble and reserved individual, and to his credit. We need to remember that Monty built this monster (or, more accurately, intelligently built something good that turned into this monster), and, ensure he gets due credit. When he spoke up on this, it was undoubtedly with thoughtful effort he composed that response. Not your typical 15-second Monty reply. So, we'll work it out here on our own fronts and ensure MySQL.com is referred to on our sites. Simple task. Always has been on mine. The legal beagles at MySQL AB will have to invoice a little more, which sucks, but, these are interesting times. Our lot is to promote an awesome db that and has been awesome for longer than Internet memory allows for (trust me; sadly, Internet memory doesn't find the MySQL beginnings except in a few places although my 2 GBytes nsmail folders do). Let the lawyers do their thing, and, I think what we need to be doing out here (especially on the list) is simply promote it to our clients, and, anyone who'll consider it's viability for their needs. MySQL will definitely meet and beat anything out there in short-time if my 4+ years experience watching Monty and crew work here are any indication. I touch MSSQL, Oracle, and in the past have touched Progress on projects that have been important to my clients. Nothing (in the technical world) excites me like the prospect of implementing MySQL for those projects. What we need to do is develop applications that need speed. That will create the demand for the MySQL server, and, from there, it will propagate. Monty and crew need to be isolated from these types of issues, so they can continue to develop in the style they've proven to us works very well. Progress needs to read what we're saying and look closely at their motivation for establishing their presence with the launch of mysql.org. They might come around and realize they've attempted to capitalize on Monty's hard-won efforts; which is really what this whole thing is about, anyway. I truly hope they do and reconcile this situation so the talented parties can focus on their work: Monty, and crew; and, there're probably a few pretty talented people at Progress. I've used it in the past, and, can't say it sucked. Just that it was an interesting db. Just think they need to think through this a bit more and give due credit where due. And, it is much due. Great Points. Hope we're all looking at the future. MySQL and our applications are a big part of that. Best Regards, Van -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Monty: I was on the verge of authorizing the purchase of 3 copies of NuSphere's PHPEd package (US$300 each) for our developers when I became aware of the controversy surrounding 'Enhanced MySQL' and mysql.org. The purchase order went into the round file, and Hell will freeze over before I buy anything from NuSphere. A small gesture, perhaps, but an appropriate one. At least our company won't be contributing to their largess. Even people with such deplorable business ethics understand a loss of income from sales. Keep up the good work ... we are proud of our relationship with MySQL AB, and the fine software you and your associates have made possible. Gerald Jensen - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
The greatest asset to using the MYSQL product over the years has been this mailing list and Monty's personal efforts to answer almost every question, no matter how stupid or repetitive, patiently and accurately. It's blown my mind to see him working so hard on handling the enormous communications on this list. He alone has given more technical support, provided more training, and is responsible for more enlightenment than the entire Tech Support hotline of MicroSoft. All that work is essentially values in the good name MYSQL provides for the code base. Nusphere, IMO, in this matter, is a theif, in addition to clearly violating the GPL under a ridicules pretense. Monty Widus, even GPL Czar... are you out of your mind Give me a break. When NuShpere was in NYC for the last Linux expo, they gave a presentation on Gemini. They clearly indicated that they are hacking at the MYSQL code base. They said NOTHING about making these estenssions propiatory only, and insisted that they planned on a server oriented business model through support. This action by them is a 100% turn around. SHAME SHAME SHAME on youi, NuSphere, for burning up valuable and scarce economic resources on legal mumbo jumbo NuSphere has ZERO chance on winning. And if they did win, the entire Free Software movemnt would undermined. Ruben I would like to whole heartedly add my support to this statement, I feel that Gerry has summed up perfectly everything I would like to say. We have been using MySQL for well over a year now and have found it to be a fast, reliable, efficient and scalable product. I happily recommend the use of it to colleagues and use it in my corporate work and when advising charities. The efforts of the developers shine through in the excellent performance of this product. It is sad to see people taking advantage of their efforts and I feel that MySQL AB has not in any way besmirched the principles of open source by taking the actions they have taken. best wishes and keep up the wonderful work, you are much appreciated Chris Dr Christopher Thorpe Information Architect GenomeBiology.com Middlesex House 34-42, Cleveland Street London W1P 6LB T 0207 631 9184 Whttp://genomebiology.com/ -Original Message- From: Gerry Sweeney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 7:15 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: mysql.org Monty and all at MySQL, I am sorry to hear about this most unfortunate situation. It is sad to see that NuSphere have taken it upon themselves to attempt to steal your intellectual property and try to benefit from all of the MySQL team's hard work. My company has been licensing using MySQL for development of our products for the past 18 months or so and I have had nothing but good things to say about MySQL. You are a credit to the open source community and I believe you have found the perfect balance with MySQL for both open source and commercial users. Your comments that you totally rely on the trust of your users is admirable and very much appreciated by many people I am sure. However, being the human race, there are always people that are going to take liberties and abuse such trust. I hope that your legal defence is swift and successful and does not cause too much disruption to your day to day business. As far as I am concerned, if NuSphere are selling a product derived from MySQL, then they should be paying MySQL.com a license fee to ensure that the professionals that are responsible for the creation of MySQL can continue to develop MySQL. We *embed* MySQL into our products and pay commercial license fees for the use of MySQL. Having dealt with MySQL at a commercial level, I can honestly say that, there is absolutely no excuse for what NuSphere have done. Your licensing policies have been totally fair, non-restrictive and realistic. Needless to say, You have our full support and rest assured I, or anyone who works at my company will not have anything to do with either mysql.org or NuSphere now or in the future. Kind Regards Gerry Sweeney Hornbill Systems Limited - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble
Re: mysql.org
Gerald R. Jensen wrote: Monty: I was on the verge of authorizing the purchase of 3 copies of NuSphere's PHPEd package (US$300 each) for our developers when I became aware of the controversy surrounding 'Enhanced MySQL' and mysql.org. The purchase order went into the round file, and Hell will freeze over before I buy anything from NuSphere. A small gesture, perhaps, but an appropriate one. At least our company won't be contributing to their largess. Even people with such deplorable business ethics understand a loss of income from sales. [ snip, snip ===] Do not jump to the conclusion that I am starting out to be an apologist for NuSphere/Progress. It is wise to honor the old dictum Never ascribe malice to that which can be attributed to ignorance. I am not sure if this type of emotional leap is proper until a bit more information comes out and some of the heat dies down. There are always two sides to every situation. There are two issues, the domain mysql.org, and the other, more difficult to understand, the aspect of GPL violation. The domain/trademark issue will get settled by legal means and there is enough of a corpus of law precedent that a settlement and/or judgement will occur. I personally do not see such a great importance of mysql.org in this matter. Obviously, many of you on this list do not share this opinion. Now most of us in/using Open Source probably do not _really_ understand the meaning and ramifications of the GPL. We _think_ we know, and we certainly have a feeling about what the GPL means. Ironically, Richard Stallman's take is, in a legal sense, crystal clear compared with the GPL. NuSphere indicated that is was going to put their products under the GPL. They have indicated that Gemini will be GPL's. Are they to be punished for being late in doing so? NuSphere supports Open Source and is public on this position. The irony of this situation is that it _may_ be to the advantage of the Open Source community if NuSphere is not knee-jerked pilloried, and tarred and feathered out of the minds of the Open Source community. It is complete speculation upon my part that ultimately, MySQL will be replaced in all those embedded applications where Progress now sits. Though it may change in the near future, commercial developers needing an embedded database usually prefer a solution like Progress because of the Company-behind-it, rather than have MySQL. MySQL may/would gain credibility if Progress is replaced. Now, I hope this is all settled to everybody's benefit. It may not be possible because of emotion. But I know that I would personally like to see MySQL start to creep into large manufacturing management systems and other systems where Progress now has a significant hold. Then, and only then, will the community be able to easily tap into MySQL and offer better intranets, tools, and other solutions. So, I am suggesting to everyone to just wait and see. It might not be as bad as it seems... -- Justin Farnsworth - Technical Director Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
Justin: Thanks ... but I couldn't care less. I have neither the time nor inclination to examine NuSphere's motives. I am a business man, and I made a business decision. Gerald Jensen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Justin Farnsworth Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 7:49 AM To: Gerald R. Jensen Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: mysql.org Gerald R. Jensen wrote: Monty: I was on the verge of authorizing the purchase of 3 copies of NuSphere's PHPEd package (US$300 each) for our developers when I became aware of the controversy surrounding 'Enhanced MySQL' and mysql.org. The purchase order went into the round file, and Hell will freeze over before I buy anything from NuSphere. A small gesture, perhaps, but an appropriate one. At least our company won't be contributing to their largess. Even people with such deplorable business ethics understand a loss of income from sales. [ snip, snip ===] Do not jump to the conclusion that I am starting out to be an apologist for NuSphere/Progress. It is wise to honor the old dictum Never ascribe malice to that which can be attributed to ignorance. I am not sure if this type of emotional leap is proper until a bit more information comes out and some of the heat dies down. There are always two sides to every situation. There are two issues, the domain mysql.org, and the other, more difficult to understand, the aspect of GPL violation. The domain/trademark issue will get settled by legal means and there is enough of a corpus of law precedent that a settlement and/or judgement will occur. I personally do not see such a great importance of mysql.org in this matter. Obviously, many of you on this list do not share this opinion. Now most of us in/using Open Source probably do not _really_ understand the meaning and ramifications of the GPL. We _think_ we know, and we certainly have a feeling about what the GPL means. Ironically, Richard Stallman's take is, in a legal sense, crystal clear compared with the GPL. NuSphere indicated that is was going to put their products under the GPL. They have indicated that Gemini will be GPL's. Are they to be punished for being late in doing so? NuSphere supports Open Source and is public on this position. The irony of this situation is that it _may_ be to the advantage of the Open Source community if NuSphere is not knee-jerked pilloried, and tarred and feathered out of the minds of the Open Source community. It is complete speculation upon my part that ultimately, MySQL will be replaced in all those embedded applications where Progress now sits. Though it may change in the near future, commercial developers needing an embedded database usually prefer a solution like Progress because of the Company-behind-it, rather than have MySQL. MySQL may/would gain credibility if Progress is replaced. Now, I hope this is all settled to everybody's benefit. It may not be possible because of emotion. But I know that I would personally like to see MySQL start to creep into large manufacturing management systems and other systems where Progress now has a significant hold. Then, and only then, will the community be able to easily tap into MySQL and offer better intranets, tools, and other solutions. So, I am suggesting to everyone to just wait and see. It might not be as bad as it seems... -- Justin Farnsworth - Technical Director Eye Integrated Communications 321 South Evans - Suite 203 Greenville, NC 27858 | Tel: (252) 353-0722 - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: MySQL.org
Hi, The article mentions that the Web site will confuse new users, but I think this one will confuse them even more: http://mysql.net/ (for non-Japanese users that is). Korean, actually. -- Matthias Urlichs (being exceedingly helpful today) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Hi! Tim == Tim Endres [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If anyone has any comments about how we at MySQL AB work as an open source company, please write to our CEO Marten Mickos via [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we will welcome your suggestions. We are totally dependent on the trust of our users, as everything we do are open source, and we are trying hard to do everything in our power to make life easier for our users. Tim I have one comment. You have an excellent database that has served myself Tim and *many* others very well! Nothing will ever change that, Monty. cut Tim, thanks for the kind words and giving us your support! Regards, Monty - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
Well. It should be an interesting Open Source convention in San Diego later this month... database,sql,query,table -- Paul DuBois, [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: MySQL.org
Hi! cut Sander I do not deny their claim on the trademark OR domain, but I am Sander somewhat unpleasantly surprised by the means they try to resolve Sander this matter, and the fact that nobody in a what I assume is an Sander internet-aware company like MySQL even considered getting the Sander .org and .net before others did. See my previous letter; We did everything in our power to resolve this in a friendly manner but didn't succeed in this. My sincere apologies then. The PR release seemed to indicate that there had been no previous contact, which lead to my assumptions. -S - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
I am far from a legal expert on this... but is it all that bad that NuSphere wishes to sell a derivative work of MySQL? Other than it competes with MySQL AB's business of selling their own commercial deployments of the package? And by that I can somewhat see why NuSphere is using the phrase unfair business practice. I'm fairly certain that MySQL is primarily developed on RedHat Linux servers, is it not? Linux has gotten itself out of the hackers domain into the mainstream due to the commercial investments of companies like RedHat and Caldera, both of which sell the GPL product at a profit, including their own enhancements to it. I can walk into Office Depot this afternoon and purchase RedHat 7.x right off the shelf. It's sitting right there beside Windows2000. Obviously, agreements are in place to allow this. Linux has also suffered its pitfalls from being distributed in this manner. Caldera, Slackware, RedHat and a number of other Linux derivatives are not fully inter-operable. On the other hand, Linus and his friends certainly have not suffered from the popularity of his operating system. MySQL can and will survive as an open-source project. But to compete truly on the commercial level with companies that have PR teams and sales reps and advertising budgets (ala Oracle or MicroSoft), commercial investment is needed... and that's where companies like NuSphere come into play. Or will MySQL AB be incorporating in the U.S. and offering an IPO? Of course, the final decision is left to those at MySQL AB. And whatever that decision, rest assured that I am behind it 100%. I am an avid supporter and I continually pitch the worth of all your work to colleges all the time. I simply wish to present the possible positive side of this situation for consideration. Michael Widenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to stress that to date, NuSphere has contributed nothing, no money or source, to the development of the MySQL(tm) server. What they have done instead is doing a fork of the MySQL distribution and making a non-open source distribution that clearly violates the GPL license. What NuSphere seems to be trying to do is to get people to approve of their fork, get more people to work on it, and cause confusion among MySQL users as to where the origin of the MySQL(tm) source and documentation is. What NuSphere has done indicates that they want to be regarded as being in the center of MySQL(tm) server development and use this as a leverage to push their commercial products that are not open source. The truth is that NuSphere has nothing to do with the development of the MySQL(tm) server. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Hi! btjones == btjones [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: btjones I am far from a legal expert on this... but is it all that bad that btjones NuSphere wishes to sell a derivative work of MySQL? Other than it competes btjones with MySQL AB's business of selling their own commercial deployments of the btjones package? And by that I can somewhat see why NuSphere is using the phrase btjones unfair business practice. MySQL is GPL, so it's ok to sell derivate works. The problem is however that NuSphere has been selling derivate work but not complied to the GPL license, which is NOT ok. By using mysql.org they are also violating our trademark; If we are not defending our trademark we may loose it. If they would have released the server and all source code as NuSphere SQL on 'www.nusphere.com', we at MySQL AB wouldn't had any reason to complain. (Of course, a fork is never a good thing, but at least in the above case it would have been legal) cut btjones MySQL can and will survive as an open-source project. But to compete truly btjones on the commercial level with companies that have PR teams and sales reps btjones and advertising budgets (ala Oracle or MicroSoft), commercial investment is btjones needed... and that's where companies like NuSphere come into play. Or will btjones MySQL AB be incorporating in the U.S. and offering an IPO? We may do an IPO in the future, but we haven't yet decided on an time table. btjones Of course, the final decision is left to those at MySQL AB. And whatever btjones that decision, rest assured that I am behind it 100%. I am an avid btjones supporter and I continually pitch the worth of all your work to colleges btjones all the time. I simply wish to present the possible positive side of btjones this situation for consideration. Thanks! Regards, Monty - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am far from a legal expert on this... but is it all that bad that NuSphere wishes to sell a derivative work of MySQL? Other than it competes with MySQL AB's business of selling their own commercial deployments of the package? And by that I can somewhat see why NuSphere is using the phrase unfair business practice. I'm fairly certain that MySQL is primarily developed on RedHat Linux servers, is it not? Linux has gotten itself out of the hackers domain into the mainstream due to the commercial investments of companies like RedHat and Caldera, both of which sell the GPL product at a profit, including their own enhancements to it. I can walk into Office Depot this afternoon and purchase RedHat 7.x right off the shelf. It's sitting right there beside Windows2000. Obviously, agreements are in place to allow this. There's nothing wrong in selling, fixing, extending etc. GPLed software. However, doing so means that to comply with the license you have to do so yourself - you have to release your improvements with the same copyright (GPL) as the rest of the code. -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
-- Original Message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 12:36:08 -0700 I am far from a legal expert on this... but is it all that bad that NuSphere wishes to sell a derivative work of MySQL? Other than it competes with MySQL AB's business of selling their own commercial deployments of the package? And by that I can somewhat see why NuSphere is using the phrase unfair business practice. I'm fairly certain that MySQL is primarily developed on RedHat Linux servers, is it not? Linux has gotten itself out of the hackers domain into the mainstream due to the commercial investments of companies like RedHat and Caldera, both of which sell the GPL product at a profit, including their own enhancements to it. I can walk into Office Depot this afternoon and purchase RedHat 7.x right off the shelf. It's sitting right there beside Windows2000. Obviously, agreements are in place to allow this. Linux has also suffered its pitfalls from being distributed in this manner. Caldera, Slackware, RedHat and a number of other Linux derivatives are not fully inter-operable. On the other hand, Linus and his friends certainly have not suffered from the popularity of his operating system. MySQL can and will survive as an open-source project. But to compete truly on the commercial level with companies that have PR teams and sales reps and advertising budgets (ala Oracle or MicroSoft), commercial investment is needed... and that's where companies like NuSphere come into play. Or will MySQL AB be incorporating in the U.S. and offering an IPO? Of course, the final decision is left to those at MySQL AB. And whatever that decision, rest assured that I am behind it 100%. I am an avid supporter and I continually pitch the worth of all your work to colleges all the time. I simply wish to present the possible positive side of this situation for consideration. HOw is being legal holder of the copyright, and enforcing that copyright, be considered unfair business practice? Open source is NOT public domain, and those that use MySQL are bound by the GPL. If NuSphere does not like that agreement, it, like anybody else, does not have to use, support, or even mention it. This is nothing more than an attempt to wrestle control of a product protected by international convention. If NuSphere were permitted to get away with this, it would cast a pall over all open source activities. Many open source developers don't mind giving away the product, even permitting derivative works, as long as they are protected from the likes of NuSphere. Theft is theft, no matter how you try to rationalize it. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: Re: mysql.org
database,sql,query,table Now most of us in/using Open Source probably do not _really_ understand the meaning and ramifications of the GPL. We _think_ we know, and we certainly have a feeling about what the GPL means. Oh Bull Making a derived work from a GPL product and not releasing it under the GPL is the very definition of a GPL violation, Ironically, Richard Stallman's take is, in a legal sense, crystal clear compared with the GPL. NuSphere indicated that is was going to put their products under the GPL. They have indicated that Gemini will be GPL's. Are they to be punished for being late in doing so? Yes They are releasing the produce for sale and it MUST be imediately released under the GPL. Read the licence. NuSphere supports Open Source and is public on this position. Not that I see so far. The irony of this situation is that it _may_ be to the advantage of the Open Source community if NuSphere is not knee-jerked pilloried, and tarred and feathered out of the minds of the Open Source community. Their in violation and sued out of existence. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: MySQL.org
On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 12:44:43PM -0700, Michael Collins wrote: The article mentions that the Web site will confuse new users, but I think this one will confuse them even more: http://mysql.net/ So maybe mislead would have been a more precise word? -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 349-7878Fax: (408) 349-5454Cell: (408) 439-9951 MySQL 3.23.29: up 26 days, processed 197,376,881 queries (86/sec. avg) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: MySQL.org
Sander Pilon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think all of us should send a letter to the people who appropriated the MySQL.org name. In my opinion, if MySQL AB wants this domain they should have the right to it. To me, it is a show of disrespect to the fine folks at MySQL AB and I am disgusted that mysql.org has chosen to so blatantly violate trademark rights. I hope at least that you do not visit or contribute to the mysql.org Web site. Rule number one on the internet: If you have a trademark, GET THE .COM, .NET, .ORG, .CC and .CX ASAP!!! That shouldn't be necesarry - if you have a trademark, you have it[1]. Getting domains you don't need shouldn't be necesarry - even if Coca-Cola hadn't owned cocacola.org, no others would have the right to do so. The fine folks at MySQL ignored that rule, and are now left with a rotten situation. IMHO, their own fault - and the way they try to resolve it is, IMHO, not the right way and somewhat typical for large american corporations like MS. It's eventually the right way - they shouldn't have to own it if they don't need it. Having a trademark means that only you can use it, not that you have to use it for everything or everywhere. Of course, nice mails and so on should be attempted first, but after that they have right to use whatever means necesarry to make infringers stop using it. [1] Unless your claim is utterly bogus, like the person trademarking Linux. He was eventually forced to give it to Linus. -- Trond Eivind Glomsrød Red Hat, Inc. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: MySQL.org
Sander Pilon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think all of us should send a letter to the people who appropriated the MySQL.org name. In my opinion, if MySQL AB wants this domain they should have the right to it. To me, it is a show of disrespect to the fine folks at MySQL AB and I am disgusted that mysql.org has chosen to so blatantly violate trademark rights. I hope at least that you do not visit or contribute to the mysql.org Web site. Rule number one on the internet: If you have a trademark, GET THE .COM, .NET, .ORG, .CC and .CX ASAP!!! That shouldn't be necesarry - if you have a trademark, you have it[1]. Getting domains you don't need shouldn't be necesarry - even if Coca-Cola hadn't owned cocacola.org, no others would have the right to do so. The fine folks at MySQL ignored that rule, and are now left with a rotten situation. IMHO, their own fault - and the way they try to resolve it is, IMHO, not the right way and somewhat typical for large american corporations like MS. It's eventually the right way - they shouldn't have to own it if they don't need it. Having a trademark means that only you can use it, not that you have to use it for everything or everywhere. Of course, nice mails and so on should be attempted first, but after that they have right to use whatever means necesarry to make infringers stop using it. [1] Unless your claim is utterly bogus, like the person trademarking Linux. He was eventually forced to give it to Linus. I do not deny their claim on the trademark OR domain, but I am somewhat unpleasantly surprised by the means they try to resolve this matter, and the fact that nobody in a what I assume is an internet-aware company like MySQL even considered getting the .org and .net before others did. The fees for whoever wrote that PR statement are worth at least 3 years of MySQL.org/net/com registration fees, if not way more. If a company likes to spend its precious time in court, argueing over domains, then by all means - don't register any .net/.org domains. But at less than $17 a year/domain, getting them is certainly the wise thing to do. -Sander - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: MySQL.org
On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 01:03:19AM +0200, Sander Pilon wrote: Rule number one on the internet: If you have a trademark, GET THE .COM, .NET, .ORG, .CC and .CX ASAP!!! The fine folks at MySQL ignored that rule, and are now left with a rotten situation. IMHO, their own fault - and the way they try to resolve it is, IMHO, not the right way and somewhat typical for large american corporations like MS. I never expected MySQL AB to come out so hostile and brutal as they did. Who told you that they ignored that rule? Have you checked the ownership history of mysql.org? Please don't assume that them not owning all those domains is the result of someone's stupidity. Please don't assume that this was their first strike in an attempt to get the domain that they feel they deserve. Jeremy -- Jeremy D. Zawodny, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Technical Yahoo - Yahoo Finance Desk: (408) 349-7878Fax: (408) 349-5454Cell: (408) 685-5936 -- NEW MySQL 3.23.29: up 26 days, processed 197,572,169 queries (85/sec. avg) - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
If anyone has any comments about how we at MySQL AB work as an open source company, please write to our CEO Marten Mickos via [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we will welcome your suggestions. We are totally dependent on the trust of our users, as everything we do are open source, and we are trying hard to do everything in our power to make life easier for our users. I have one comment. You have an excellent database that has served myself and *many* others very well! Nothing will ever change that, Monty. We at MySQL AB have already taken the necessary legal steps to defend our rights. We would however need help from all MySQL users to properly defend ourselves. I wish you success. It is difficult, but sometimes necessary. If you want to help us, please help us with the following: - If you now have a link in your website or browser to mysql.org because you think it is the authorized MySQL AB site, please consider pointing that link to www.mysql.com Done. - Inform everyone you know about the true nature of mysql.org, I have updated the home page of the Giant Java Tree (www.gjt.org) to include a pointer to your posting, Monty. Java developers all over the world hit that web page 5,000 times every day! - Send your honest comments about this unfortunate situation, and report all instances of confusion concerning mysql.org to us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you don't have time to fight for us, you can support us in this fight by purchasing a MySQL(tm) server license at https://order.mysql.com/ I purchased my license, and I have never regretted it!! Regards, and good luck, tim. - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
Hi Monty, When reading Your comments, I became very sorry for You and MySQL. With almost four years experience on MySQL on Windows, I have had no problems of any kind. You and Your people are doing a great job both on the software and on the support - other major players could learn from MySQL way of doing this. MySQL is probably the most (the only) successfull open source software today, worldwide. I also became upset. The Internet is surposed to be a free and open world. Just because You / MySQL have worked hard on the software and technical, and perhaps less considering the marketing - some other company finds a free domain-name and starts making benefits / violations on Your efforts - and all other peoples free efforts and contributions to MySQL. This handling of NuSphere also violates the whole idea about open source, because anybody contributing free stuff now have to consider their copyrights - and copyrights can only be protected by making none open protections - and the open source idea is dead. I propose we all support MySQL in their efforts on this issue, ex. by sending our comments to NuSphere on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, it does not says mail: nusphere. Going to http://www.nusphere.com/about/index.htm mention the email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and also mentioning NuSphere Corporation is a Progress Software Company formed to provide open source products and services - and You can link to the www.progress.com Then you can start wondering why one software company wants to promote open source by using another companys software - why is the Progress database not good enough for NuSphere ??? Best regards Peter Copnehagen Denmark - Original Message - From: Michael Widenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: mysql.org snip - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
Re: mysql.org
PeterWR wrote: Then you can start wondering why one software company wants to promote open source by using another companys software - why is the Progress database not good enough for NuSphere ??? Best regards Peter Copnehagen Denmark Peter: Have your ever worked with Progress? It's ... interesting. It's like no other database system I've ever seen, and, it's hardly SQL-compliant. At least when I worked on Progress 6.0 in '98. Progress had much to gain by incorporating MySQL features and more-or-less SQL-compliant features/syntax. That's why the Progress database was possibly not good enough for NuSphere. Best Regards, Van -- = Linux rocks!!! http://www.dedserius.com/ = - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
RE: mysql.org
Monty and all at MySQL, I am sorry to hear about this most unfortunate situation. It is sad to see that NuSphere have taken it upon themselves to attempt to steal your intellectual property and try to benefit from all of the MySQL team's hard work. My company has been licensing using MySQL for development of our products for the past 18 months or so and I have had nothing but good things to say about MySQL. You are a credit to the open source community and I believe you have found the perfect balance with MySQL for both open source and commercial users. Your comments that you totally rely on the trust of your users is admirable and very much appreciated by many people I am sure. However, being the human race, there are always people that are going to take liberties and abuse such trust. I hope that your legal defence is swift and successful and does not cause too much disruption to your day to day business. As far as I am concerned, if NuSphere are selling a product derived from MySQL, then they should be paying MySQL.com a license fee to ensure that the professionals that are responsible for the creation of MySQL can continue to develop MySQL. We *embed* MySQL into our products and pay commercial license fees for the use of MySQL. Having dealt with MySQL at a commercial level, I can honestly say that, there is absolutely no excuse for what NuSphere have done. Your licensing policies have been totally fair, non-restrictive and realistic. Needless to say, You have our full support and rest assured I, or anyone who works at my company will not have anything to do with either mysql.org or NuSphere now or in the future. Kind Regards Gerry Sweeney Hornbill Systems Limited - Before posting, please check: http://www.mysql.com/manual.php (the manual) http://lists.mysql.com/ (the list archive) To request this thread, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trouble unsubscribing? Try: http://lists.mysql.com/php/unsubscribe.php
