Re: DIS: test message please ignore

[Josh T]

My nickname: dragging Agora to like 1992 in terms of internationalization
of its encoding.

天火狐

On 22 November 2017 at 19:59, ATMunn  wrote:

> Yeah, I've noticed this as well, it happens in my text editor as well. I
> tend to go with the approach of having the | be in the same column.
>
>
> On 11/22/2017 7:56 PM, Alex Smith wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2017-11-23 at 11:45 +1100, Madeline wrote:
>>
>>> Telnaior|
 天火狐 |
 Trigon  |

>>>
>>> Telnaior|
 天火狐   |
 Trigon  |

>>>
>>> Telnaior|
 天火狐  |
 Trigon  |

>>>
>> According to the Unicode standards, the vast majority of Japanese
>> characters (whichever alphabet they come from) are intended to be twice
>> as wide as an English letter would be in a monospace font.
>>
>> However, many email clients suck at enforcing this rule in practice
>> (e.g. mine seems to be displaying the above three-character word as
>> just over five columns wide). In order to avoid making peoples' eyes
>> bleed, I tend to use a footnote whenever I have to write 天火狐's name in
>> tabular data, so that it doesn't need to line up with anything else.
>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: URGENT! SCAM ALERT! ALL HANDS ON DECK! SCAM INCOMING! SCAM WARNING! SCAM WARNING!

[Josh T]

In case if you're curious, if things are set up correctly, in a fixed width
font a CJK character is supposed to have the width of two Latin alphabet
characters.

天火狐

On 22 November 2017 at 19:54, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Isn't it possible that e was trying to test the size of different
> whitespace characters to make a report table line up? That's what it
> looks like to me.
>
> -Aris
>
> On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 4:53 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  wrote:
> > SCAM ALERT! ALL HANDS ON DECK! SCAM INCOMING! SCAM WARNING! SCAM
> WARNING! A test message contains confusing contents was received at 0:45 on
> November 23, 2017. This message took the form of other similar messages
> that led up to timing scams. Please be aware that a scam may be incoming.
> Watch out for suspicious messages from this player or eir associates and
> scrutinize all messages thoroughly. Agora has recently experienced an
> attempted scam and this could be in preparation for a follow-up. Please
> monitor the list carefully. Please forward this as widely as possible for
> maximum awareness.
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Nov 22, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Madeline  wrote:
> >>
> >> | Telnaior|
> >> | 天火狐 |
> >> | Trigon  |
> >>
> >>
> >> | Telnaior|
> >> | 天火狐   |
> >> | Trigon  |
> >>
> >>
> >> | Telnaior|
> >> | 天火狐  |
> >> | Trigon  |
> >>
> >
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Initiating Decisions Correctly

[Josh T]

I guess a vote of PURPLE might not count towards quorum in that case. I
don't remember if giving out humiliating reminders require the ballot cast
to be valid. Either way, my sentiment is met.

天火狐

On 19 November 2017 at 00:05, Ørjan Johansen <oer...@nvg.ntnu.no> wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Nov 2017, Josh T wrote:
>
> Apparently, I just need to cast a vote to avoid being given a humiliating
>> reminder, so for all pending proposals whose valid options include FOR and
>> AGAINST, I vote PURPLE. I understand this is effectively "PRESENT", but
>> that's not what I'm casting it as in case if there is something silly that
>> I missed and there's a distinction therein.
>>
>
> Rule 683 §4 requires that a ballot specifies a valid vote, which PURPLE
> isn't.  So I don't think it counts even as PRESENT.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Contract (Designating reportor)

[Josh T]

I need to keep an eye out for the Occult Hand anyway so I will be checking
my email so this is hopefully functionally equivalent. I did write
everything in half an hour, so...

天火狐

On 12 November 2017 at 22:36, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This text may also be worthy of a CFJ.
>
> I give 48 hours notice to amend the last paragraph of "Reporting Agency"
> to read in its entirety as follows:
> {{{
> The Agent of this contract, while the proprietor is the Reportor, may
> announce that they are "acting as the Agent of the Reportor" and publish a
> document. If they do so, the proprietor SHALL endorse the document in such
> a way that it counts as the official Reportor report (up to and including
> reposting the report) for the time period and collect any currency rewards
> for the report, which they SHALL give the Agent. The proprietor shall
> also treat any direct communication which would, if posted to a public
> forum, amount to the aforementioned action as the action in question. In
> addition, if this contract does not possess a Shiny but the proprietor
> does, and if the Notary has announced intent to destroy this contract due
> to non-payment of its upkeep, the Agent can, by announcement, cause the
> proprietor to transfer one of eir shinies to this contract. If the
> proprietor fails to do so, e is responsible of reimbursing the Agent the
> shiny value of the rewards lost.
> }}}
>
> 天火狐
>
>
>
>
> On 12 November 2017 at 22:24, Aris Merchant <thoughtsoflifeandlight17@
> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Won't work, due to my excessive paranoia. See the list of protected
>> actions, item 6.
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 7:21 PM, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I become a party to the below contract
>> > (I may have a CFJ regarding it at some point, because it's me, of
>> course).
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> Since I'll be busy and apparently was remiss in doing things in the
>> >> upstanding Agoran fashion, on suggestion I am going to make the
>> following
>> >> contract, titled "Reporting Agency", and paying the shiny to do so:
>> >> {{{
>> >> The player 天火狐 is the proprietor of the Reporting Agency. This contract
>> >> recognizes one of it's non-proprietors as its Agent. If no party is
>> >> currently recognized the Agent, this contract immediately selects the
>> first
>> >> party eligible based on the order in which they became a party to this
>> >> contract.
>> >>
>> >> 天火狐 and VJ Rada can become a party to this contract by announcement.
>> Any
>> >> person can become a party to this contract by announcement starting
>> Nov.
>> >> 15, 2017. A party who is not the proprietor may cease to be a party to
>> this
>> >> contract by announcement.
>> >>
>> >> The proprietor can make amendments to this contract by announcement
>> with 48
>> >> hours notice. The proprietor can remove a party from this contract by
>> >> announcement. A party to this contract can make an announcement to to
>> >> attempt to remove the Agent; if two other parties to this contract
>> announce
>> >> support for the attempt, the Agent is removed from the contract.
>> >>
>> >> If the Agent wishes to resign (i.e. no longer wishes to be the Agent),
>> they
>> >> must no longer be a party to this contract. When making the
>> announcement to
>> >> do so, they may optionally select a non-proprietor party. If they
>> choose to
>> >> do so, that party becomes the next Agent instead.
>> >>
>> >> The Agent of this contract, while the proprietor is the Reportor, is
>> >> empowered to publish Reportor reports on eir behalf, The Agent is also
>> >> allowed to collect any and all rewards related to the report that the
>> Agent
>> >> is publishing on behalf of the proprietor, and if necessary, effect the
>> >> transfer of that reward to the Agent (by announcement, using this
>> contract
>> >> as a proxy if necessary). In addition, if this contract does not
>> possess a
>> >> Shiny but the proprietor does, and if the Notary has announced intent
>> to
>> >> destroy this contract due to non-payment of its upkeep, the Agent can,
>> by
>> >> announcement, cause the proprietor to transfer one of eir shinies to
>> this
>> >> contract.
>> >> }}}
>> >>
>> >> I become a party to the contract "Reporting Agency".
>> >>
>> >> I transfer 1 Shiny to the contract "Reporting Agency"
>> >>
>> >> 天火狐
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > From V.J. Rada
>>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Reportor] Agora Sky News vol 7

[Josh T]

Sure, let me write up something quick.

天火狐

On 12 November 2017 at 21:44, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll take the job by designation if you want.
>
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Oh that's a good idea, a contracted replacement. Unfortunately, I don't
> see
> > myself being less busy in the near future so an election is probably in
> > order. Maybe in the new year? That's probably a bit too long given the
> pace
> > the game is running recently.
> >
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 12 November 2017 at 12:27, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> A week or two is fine, for anyone.  But more than that e should step
> down,
> >> work out a contracted replacement, or we should just run an election.
> >>
> >> On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:
> >> > I agree. I think e said e was going to be pretty busy for a month or
> >> two, but
> >> > still. Also, the wrapping is messed up.
> >> >
> >> > On 11/12/2017 12:14 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Really we should put a word minimum on the newspaper; there were
> more
> >> > > activities going on this week and this seems very low-effort to me.
> >> > >
> >> > > I mean, if you can't even report your own Bard award to be
> "significant
> >> > > or interesting", that's just very limited.
> >> > >
> >> > > Do others have feelings on appropriate minimum effort?
> >> > >
> >> > > On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, Josh T wrote:
> >> > > > I claim a reward of 5 shinies for the report.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 天火狐
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On 12 November 2017 at 11:29, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > = Agora Sky News
> >> > > > > ===
> >> > > > > 
> >> ==
> >> > > > > vol.
> >> > > > > 7 ==
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >  Detective Institute Opens Doors
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Aspiring investigators can now help Agoran citizens with solving
> >> > > > > mysteries
> >> > > > > with
> >> > > > > the help of the newly opened Sherlock Holmes Institute. All
> >> mysteries,
> >> > > > > large and
> >> > > > > small, are welcome; if a mystery is brought to the institute and
> >> its
> >> > > > > top-notch
> >> > > > > investigators cannot resolve the case in a reasonable time
> frame,
> >> you
> >> > > > > get
> >> > > > > your
> >> > > > > money back and then some for the inconvenience.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >  天火狐
> >> > > > >
> >> >
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Reportor] Agora Sky News vol 7

[Josh T]

Oh that's a good idea, a contracted replacement. Unfortunately, I don't see
myself being less busy in the near future so an election is probably in
order. Maybe in the new year? That's probably a bit too long given the pace
the game is running recently.

天火狐

On 12 November 2017 at 12:27, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> A week or two is fine, for anyone.  But more than that e should step down,
> work out a contracted replacement, or we should just run an election.
>
> On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, ATMunn wrote:
> > I agree. I think e said e was going to be pretty busy for a month or
> two, but
> > still. Also, the wrapping is messed up.
> >
> > On 11/12/2017 12:14 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Really we should put a word minimum on the newspaper; there were more
> > > activities going on this week and this seems very low-effort to me.
> > >
> > > I mean, if you can't even report your own Bard award to be "significant
> > > or interesting", that's just very limited.
> > >
> > > Do others have feelings on appropriate minimum effort?
> > >
> > > On Sun, 12 Nov 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > > > I claim a reward of 5 shinies for the report.
> > > >
> > > > 天火狐
> > > >
> > > > On 12 November 2017 at 11:29, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > = Agora Sky News
> > > > > ===
> > > > > 
> ==
> > > > > vol.
> > > > > 7 ==
> > > > >
> > > > >  Detective Institute Opens Doors
> > > > >
> > > > > Aspiring investigators can now help Agoran citizens with solving
> > > > > mysteries
> > > > > with
> > > > > the help of the newly opened Sherlock Holmes Institute. All
> mysteries,
> > > > > large and
> > > > > small, are welcome; if a mystery is brought to the institute and
> its
> > > > > top-notch
> > > > > investigators cannot resolve the case in a reasonable time frame,
> you
> > > > > get
> > > > > your
> > > > > money back and then some for the inconvenience.
> > > > >
> > > > >  天火狐
> > > > >
> >
>

Re: DIS: Contract proto

[Josh T]

Seems fun, but I probably won't want to be an Author until December at
least since real life is being busy.

天火狐

On 7 November 2017 at 21:23, ATMunn  wrote:

> I had this idea for a contract while in the shower last night. I decided
> to make a quick prototype. I think everything looks good, but I'll put
> this here just in case.
>
>
>
> Title: "Sherlock Holmes Institute"
>
> 
> Any player CAN become a party to this contract by announcement. ATMunn
> is always a party of this contract, and is known as the Chancellor of
> the Institute (Chancellor for short).
>
> The Chancellor CAN, at any time, amend or destroy this contract with 48
> hours notice.
>
> This contract is willing to accept shinies, and nothing else.
>
> A party to this contract can hold one of two roles: Author or
> Investigator. By default, all parties to this contract are Investigators
> unless specified otherwise. No party can become an Author unless the
> Chancellor appoints em as one.
>
> The Chancellor, by default, is an Author. E CAN, by announcement,
> appoint any Investigator to become an Author. Upon doing so, the
> specified party CAN become an Author by announcement. Any Author CAN
> become an Investigator at any time, by announcement. However, once an
> Author becomes an Investigator again, e CANNOT become an Author again
> unless the Chancellor appoints em as one again.
>
> Once every month, any Author CAN publish a Scene by announcement,
> becoming that Scene's Author. A Scene is a work of fictional literature,
> and MUST contain some sort of mystery, and be at least 200 words in
> order to be valid. Scenes SHOULD be related to Agora in some way. A
> single Scene can only have one Author, and a single Author can have no
> more than one Scene at any time.
>
> In the same message that e published a Scene, the Author of the scene
> CAN and SHALL transfer at least 5 shinies to this contract. These
> shinies are designated as this Scene's Reward. Authors CAN add shinies
> to eir Scene's Reward at any time, by announcement, by transferring
> those shinies to this contract.
>
> Within 30 days from the publishing of a Scene, any party to this
> contract other than the Scene's Author CAN claim to have Deduced the
> Mystery by announcement. Then, in a timely fashion from the announcement
> of the claim, the Scene's Author CAN and SHALL announce whether or not
> the claim was correct. If it was, then the party who Deduced the Mystery
> CAN cause this contract to transfer the Scene's Reward to emself by
> announcement. If the claim was incorrect, nothing happens.
>
> If 30 days pass from the publishing of a Scene and no player has
> correctly Deduced the Mystery, than the Author of that Scene is said to
> have Stumped all of the Investigators, and CAN cause this contract to
> transfer the Scene's Reward to emself by announcement.
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Poetry Duel Challenge Writ

[Josh T]

I'm kind of surprised that it passed at all. I suppose I should go fix it
so that it does things, but given that for about six months I had an
organization that nobody could read, don't hold your breath for
clarifications or a fast resolution.

天火狐

On 5 November 2017 at 22:08, VJ Rada  wrote:

> i think it means you can either duel me or not duel me. if you don't want
> to duel me, you have to submit a nameless writ and remit, paying me (?) 10
> shinies. if you want to duel, we duel, someone initiates an Agoran Decision
> (but hell, damned if it says who) and nothing happens to the loser.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Madeline  wrote:
>
>> I'll respond if you explain what it actually does in plain text, I'm
>> stumped on lines 3-5.
>>
>>
>> On 2017-11-06 13:58, VJ Rada wrote:
>>
>> I can't believe that proposal passed. Read what you're voting for, chaps.
>>
>> I challenge Telnaior to a poetry duel by issuing a Poetry Duel Challenge
>> Writ.
>> --
>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7931-7947

[Josh T]

I just wanted to mention that for my Silly Proposal, I kind of was busy and
I just wrote something which I wouldn't mind getting passed, but I'm not
super attached to. If it passes, I am certainly capable of making it into a
full mechanic, but honestly we've a lot of activity recently and we might
need to cool off on that for a bit.

天火狐

On 30 October 2017 at 22:04, VJ Rada  wrote:

> I actually just replied to the proposal that you did make.
>
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 1:01 PM, ATMunn  wrote:
> > I did make a proposal fixing an issue with Emotions and one with
> Silliness,
> > but not Medals of Honour.
> >
> >
> > On 10/30/2017 9:32 PM, VJ Rada wrote:
> >>
> >> I surely remember you creating a new proposal with that fixed. Maybe
> >> I'm hallucinating.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 31, 2017 at 12:31 PM, ATMunn 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 10/30/2017 8:54 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> 
> 
>  I vote as follows:
> >
> >
> > 7932*  ATMunn, [1]1.0  A Reward for Obedience v5ATMunn  1
> > AP
> 
> 
> 
>  AGAINST. “In the 7 days of an Agoran month” is nonsense. With the
>  obvious
>  fix, I’d likely vote for it: it’s a neat mechanic and ties in nicely
>  with
>  others.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Oh, I didn't realize that. VJ Rada says it was fixed and distributed
> >>> fixed
> >>> in the new distribution, but I don't recall that.
> >>>
> >>> I sumbit the following proposal and pend it with AP:
> >>>
> >>> Title: "Medals of Honour Fix"
> >>> AI: 1
> >>> Author: ATMunn
> >>> Co-author(s):
> >>>
> >>> If there is a rule entitled "Medals of Honour", and it contains the
> >>> phrase
> >>> "In the 7 days of an Agoran month", then amend that rule by replacing
> >>> that
> >>> phrase with "In the first 7 days of an Agoran month"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

Oh huh, I thought I had written "private direct channel of communication"
and on double-checking I appeared to had not done that. Admittedly, that
could still be ambiguous on the second point, so I should go clarify this.
Anything amiss by saying "A private direct channel of communication, for
the purposes of this contract, constitutes either a direct email to a
supplied email address (default: one registered with the Registrar's
office) with no other parties, or some other mutually agreeable medium."?

天火狐

On 30 October 2017 at 15:34, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > Could you explain why you feel it necessary to define "private", is the
> common
> > English definition not sufficient on some regard?
>
> It's a bit ambiguous in the common definition.
>
> - A "private" group could include more than 1 other person by common
>definition.  So if a third party is cc'd it's not clear whether that
>counts as private.
>
> - If "private" is strictly the opposite of "public", the discussion
>forum could qualify as private (less likely interpretation).
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

Could you explain why you feel it necessary to define "private", is the
common English definition not sufficient on some regard?

I believe that it is beyond my ability to draft to adequately restrict such
divulgences to the judicial cases where it is needed, since it might open
up the avenue of people calling CFJs to learn other people's Shibboleths. I
do not intend to reveal peoples' Shibboleths, but concede that it is
possible that there is a possible judicial case where it would be greatly
beneficial for the judge to know what it is. (Specially, if a CFJ can't be
called on the basis using a schema like "Assuming the Shibboleth of X is
'Y', [...]")

There is an amendment which has been enacted that clarifies the substring
clause.

I may when I need to next amend the contract to include a provision against
transferring the last shiny and clarifying text that the Notary takes the
upkeep costs of the contract.

Thank you for taking the time to go over the contract.

天火狐

On 29 October 2017 at 03:27, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I create the following contract, titled "Order of the Occult Hand", by
> > paying Agora 1 Shiny:
> > {{{
> > The player 天火狐 is the proprietor of the Order of the Occult Hand. The
> > proprietor CAN make amendments to this contract by announcing eir intent
> to
> > do so with at least 48 hours notice. All other non-proprietor parties to
> > this contract are referred to as a "participant" of this contract.
> >
> > A player CAN become a party to this contract via announcement. A party to
> > this contract who is not wagering the occult hand CAN cease being a
> party to
> > this contract by announcement.
> >
> > The collective assets which this contract owns is referred to as the
> "Pot".
> > The only party which is allowed to transfer assets from the Pot is the
> > proprietor. The proprietor MAY NOT transfer assets from the Pot except as
> > detailed in this contract. This contract is willing to receive all
> assets.
> >
> > When a participant to this contract announces they wish to "wager the
> occult
> > hand", the following happens:
> > * If the party is already wagering the occult hand, this announcement is
> > INEFFECTIVE. Otherwise, the participant is considered to be wagering the
> > occult hand.
> > * The proprietor, in a private channel of communication, shall message
> the
> > participant in a timely manner a secret word or phrase known as their
> > "Shibboleth". The proprietor SHALL announce that the participant has
> > received eir Shibboleth. If the proprietor fails to do so in a timely
> > manner, then the participant is no longer considered to be wagering the
> > occult hand.
>
> Could you define private as something that clearly means no player
> other than the once in question? It would also be nice if you made it
> so the proprietor SHALL NOT give out Shibboleth except as described in
> the contract. If you do so, you should probably make an exception for
> judicial cases.
>
> > When a proposal authored by a participant contains as a substring, in its
> > text, eir Shibboleth and, at the time of the closure of the voting
> period of
> > the aforementioned proposal, no participant to this contract has found
> the
> > occult hand in the proposal, the following occurs:
>
> This should be changed so that the proposal needs either some number
> of FOR voter or some F/A ratio. Passing may well be to strong a
> restriction, although it would work as well. Right now there are cases
> where it might be cost effective to spam nonsense proposals, which the
> Promotor would have to distribute.
>
> > * The participant who authored the proposal SHOULD, in a timely manner,
> > announce that they have won against the occult hand;
> > * The proprietor SHALL transfer the Pot to said participant in a timely
> > manner.
> > * The participant is no longer considered to be wagering the occult hand.
> >
> > The action to "look for the occult hand" refers to one of three actions,
> > distinguished by the cost paid by the party taking the action. The valid
> > options are:
> > * If the party announces they are looking for the occult hand and pays
> this
> > contract 16 shinies, they may name a pending or distributed proposal
> > authored by a participant who is wagering the occult hand;
> > * If the party announces they are looking for the occult hand and pays
> this
> > contract 3 shinies, they may name a paragraph in a pendin

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

What do people think about giving some of the Pot to the Promotor? If so,
what is a reasonable amount?

天火狐

On 28 October 2017 at 19:02, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Sat, 2017-10-28 at 15:44 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > I didn't consider that. They do have to bury it so people don't know
> > which proposal it is, don't they. Sigh.
>
> I'd argue that the best fix here is simply to increase the pend fee.
> Doubling it (to 2 AP or twice the current number of shinies) would seem
> reasonable – spamming proposals is what people tend to do when costs go
> cheap, and it seems reasonable to be able to AP-pend only once a week –
> and would mean that the flood of proposals at least would help Agora's
> liquidity problem.
>
> We also need to move to a varying payscale for offices, rather than the
> standard one-payment-fits-all method. Otherwise, there's too much
> competition for the easy offices and not enough for the hard ones.
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

Sorry Aris! It's also worth considering that people don't have to do it in
one week, so that might be a silver lining.

天火狐

On 28 October 2017 at 18:44, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I didn't consider that. They do have to bury it so people don't know
> which proposal it is, don't they. Sigh.
>
> -Aris
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 3:42 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> > Yeah, I'm predicting several proposals from every party, absolutely. So
> > it'll be a tough week for Aris in that capacity.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:40 AM, Alex Smith 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sat, 2017-10-28 at 15:37 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> > I'm not Notary, just Promotor and Regkeepor. I think you mean o. I
> >> > pay o 5 shinies to thank em for taking the job.
> >>
> >> The contract in question is hardly changing, but it strongly encourages
> >> players to write proposals. So the prediction is that it'll create a
> >> lot of extra work for the Promotor.
> >>
> >> --
> >> ais523
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

For keeping track of contracts? Surely a little bit of bookkeeping is worth
interesting gameplay. As far as I understand it, the Notary only has to
keep track of who is party to the Occult Hand, the Treasurer needs to keep
track of the Pot, and I have to do everything else.

天火狐

On 28 October 2017 at 18:24, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This might be another tough week for Aris :(
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:23 AM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I join the occult hand contract and wish to wager.
>>
>> On Sat, 28 Oct 2017, Josh T wrote:
>> > I am pleased to announce that V.J. Rada has received eir Shibboleth.
>> > 天火狐
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

To put it in other words, "If you were assigning words/phrases that other
people have to sneak into proposals without arousing other people's
suspicion, what do you think are reasonable choices?"

The idea is that *I* have an idea of what I intend to assign as
words/phrases, but this might not be what people expect, and I'm doing a
reality check. (Hint: There is a reason why the contract is called what it
is)

天火狐

On 26 October 2017 at 21:46, ATMunn <iamingodsa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not really sure what is meant by the first question.
>
> On 10/26/2017 9:34 PM, Josh T wrote:
>
>> For the purposes to provide everyone involved with a fun game, I would
>> like to ask those interested to partake in a voluntary anonymous survey so
>> I have an idea of what people are expecting. I will probably be making
>> word/phrase lists on Saturday after I resolve my intent to amend the
>> contract so that it is usable and pull / update that list as people make or
>> concede the wager. The survey can be found here:
>> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf1aKvKLkD-kzBPrgBJ
>> aRyl32nA028tjNlZXNCKvu35Vw5E8Q/viewform
>>
>> 天火狐
>>
>> On 26 October 2017 at 00:25, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com > vijar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I become a party to the Order
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>  > NttPF.
>>  >
>>  > I posted the intent to amend. I'm heading to bed though, so if I
>> missed
>>  > things let me know and I'll amend to fix it ASAP.
>>  >
>>  > 天火狐
>>  >
>>  > On 26 October 2017 at 00:19, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com > vijar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> I become a party to the Order.
>>  >>
>>  >> I will wager if you change the party/participant thing.
>>  >>
>>  >> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Nic Evans <nich...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:nich...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>  >> > I become a party of Order of the Occult Hand. I like the idea
>>  >> > tremendously but there's two qualms:
>>  >> >
>>  >> > * Party and participant are used interchangeably when they are
>> in fact
>>  >> > not. Party includes the proprietor, participant does not. This
>> leads,
>>  >> > either intentionally or accidentally, to the bigger issue:
>>  >> >
>>  >> > * The proprietor appears to be able to look for the occult hand,
>>  >> > potentially making this a giant scam.
>>  >> >
>>  >> >
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> --
>>  >> From V.J. Rada
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>  From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

For the purposes to provide everyone involved with a fun game, I would like
to ask those interested to partake in a voluntary anonymous survey so I
have an idea of what people are expecting. I will probably be making
word/phrase lists on Saturday after I resolve my intent to amend the
contract so that it is usable and pull / update that list as people make or
concede the wager. The survey can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSf1aKvKLkD-kzBPrgBJaRyl32nA028tjNlZXNCKvu35Vw5E8Q/viewform

天火狐

On 26 October 2017 at 00:25, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I become a party to the Order
>
> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > NttPF.
> >
> > I posted the intent to amend. I'm heading to bed though, so if I missed
> > things let me know and I'll amend to fix it ASAP.
> >
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 26 October 2017 at 00:19, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I become a party to the Order.
> >>
> >> I will wager if you change the party/participant thing.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Nic Evans <nich...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I become a party of Order of the Occult Hand. I like the idea
> >> > tremendously but there's two qualms:
> >> >
> >> > * Party and participant are used interchangeably when they are in fact
> >> > not. Party includes the proprietor, participant does not. This leads,
> >> > either intentionally or accidentally, to the bigger issue:
> >> >
> >> > * The proprietor appears to be able to look for the occult hand,
> >> > potentially making this a giant scam.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> From V.J. Rada
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

NttPF.

I posted the intent to amend. I'm heading to bed though, so if I missed
things let me know and I'll amend to fix it ASAP.

天火狐

On 26 October 2017 at 00:19, VJ Rada  wrote:

> I become a party to the Order.
>
> I will wager if you change the party/participant thing.
>
> On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> > I become a party of Order of the Occult Hand. I like the idea
> > tremendously but there's two qualms:
> >
> > * Party and participant are used interchangeably when they are in fact
> > not. Party includes the proprietor, participant does not. This leads,
> > either intentionally or accidentally, to the bigger issue:
> >
> > * The proprietor appears to be able to look for the occult hand,
> > potentially making this a giant scam.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: New Contract

[Josh T]

@ais: While in principle I don't disagree, I would like to see an
implementation that addresses your concerns. Think of this implementation
as a prototype for now.

@Alexis: That would be a good idea, yes. If there are any other holes that
would benefit from being patched up I would appreciate it if you could also
point them out. (I literally wrote the whole thing while I am
procrastinating reviewing)

天火狐

On 25 October 2017 at 23:56, Alexis Hunt <aler...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Oct 2017 at 23:46 Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I create the following contract, titled "Order of the Occult Hand", by
>> paying Agora 1 Shiny:
>>
>
> Provided you adjust "any part" to require something more along the lines
> of a word or such, rather than a letter, I would like to play.
>
> -Alexis
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Secretary] Basic income distribution

[Josh T]

I mean, if someone thinks it is better for it to fail and it is in danger
of passing, they can buy my vote to make it more likely to fail.

We could start giving incentives for people to have the minority opinion
when the vote is counted, but I can see how that could be objectionable.

It's also a fact that I am fine with maintaining systems which work in
theory, but not in practice, or serve a (not always obvious) purpose by
merely existing. I feel that even if I effectively don't earn anything from
the shop, it does serve a purpose which I find valuable.

天火狐

On 25 October 2017 at 14:25, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > Given that I think VJ Rada is the only person who has purchased a vote in
> > the whole existence of me selling votes, I am inclined to agree.
>
> The issue is that - if the proposal is an actual idea (not a scam or win
> attempt), people (a) want it to win on its own merit and (b) track the
> public voting and can see if it's going up and down, and it's rare that
> one or two bought votes make a difference.  Especially because, if the
> voting's close it's likely a "good idea but with something broken", for
> which letting it fail and proposing a better proposal is preferred.
>
> If several people packaged a bloc big enough to make a difference, it
> would probably instantly be used as a scam and the bloc would fall apart.
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Secretary] Basic income distribution

[Josh T]

Given that I think VJ Rada is the only person who has purchased a vote in
the whole existence of me selling votes, I am inclined to agree. Real life
tends to get in the way of me carefully considering proposals (that is, I
fail to allocate time to the task due to the lack of free time) and I might
as well try and profit from my inaction in case if someone actually cares
on a decision. I mean, it's also free Trust Tokens and can be used on
elections, so if someone wants to start a bidding war, they certainly
could. (I had actually considered making it a Vickrey auction, but there
hasn't been enough interest to buy my votes for it to be worth the effort
to write the legislation to implement one)

天火狐

On 25 October 2017 at 12:52, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> > > That's fair enough, I was mainly thinking of ways like utilising
> > > contracts and offering wincon progress or selling your vote, and in
> > > general I feel like people don't really use what's there as much as
> > > we possibly could?
> >
> > I completely concur with this. We've had/do have so many systems that
> > would work if people (myself absolutely included) were more interested
> > in them. I mean, there's currently a vote-buying pledge and a vote-
> > buying contract but nobody's using either. I plan to create a couple
> > of contracts over the coming days but yeah guys...I feel like maybe we
> > (me included) should sit back for a bit and try & utilize the current
> > systems to their full potential.
>
> People don't spend to buy others' votes.  They just don't.  I have
> theories as to why, but while I've seen many many people set up contracts,
> etc. to sell votes, over years of observed play they rarely make more
> than a few shinies here and there.  A bought vote might help one little
> scam/victory proposal here and there, but it's not a basis for gameplay.
>
> And yeah, Contracts for contracts sake (without something basic
> and stable underlying the purpose of contracts) is just pointless.
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Let's talk Economic Realities

[Josh T]

I am working on a proposal and is expecting to proto it probably this
weekend. It technically doesn't do any of those things, but I think it is a
better starting point for interacting with the economy.

天火狐

On 25 October 2017 at 12:47, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
>
> Hi all,  I wanted to share some observations on what makes Agoran
> economies function, and where we're not quite there yet.  These are just
> observations from watching systems go by.
>
> - To get trading, you need SPECIALIZATION and DIVERSE GOODS.  For
>   trading to work, you need the Cost of Specialization (in time or funds)
>   to be much greater than the cost of a specialist producing those codes.
>   Otherwise people just rotate through specialties to get the goods they
>   need.  (This is Econ 101 for Free Trade between nations).
>
> - Our current system has none of this.  What the current system is is
>   an abstracted and volatile stock market.  We can invest stamps or
>   proposals when price is low to sell high.  It's basically each player
>   against "the system" (where the "system" is our collective behavior)
>   and it's kind of interesting.  But it doesn't, at all, promote cross-
>   person economic activity.
>
> There's nothing wrong with an "abstract stock market" game.  But we
> shouldn't
> mistake it for a trading system.
>
> So the way I see it, we should do one of two things:
>
> 1.  Embrace the current system as a stock market/gambling system, and
> increase the Stamps and aspects of gambling, and make more ways that
> speculation can happen.  But not try too hard to make this a "trading
> economy".
>
> 2.  Scrap the volatile aspects entirely (fix FV, mint more shinies than
> we'll ever need).  Instead, create a system of Specialization.  We can
> use things like Land as a vehicle - either by making Land *one* limited
> specialty (limited supply) but creating other specialty directions...
> OR by making Land a basic low-level commodity (lots of supply) but with
> customization (Farms and so forth).
>
> I think *either* system could be fun.  I do enjoy the "buy low/sell high"
> simple gaming we've got now, and (in past history) we've done (2) much
> more often than (1).
>
> But we should really not try to go in both directions, because this hybrid
> is just a *bit* of a mess.  [Once we've answered this basic question -
> what are we trying to do - then we can talk about details like incomes,
> supply level, etc. etc.]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Secretary] Basic income distribution

[Josh T]

> I mean, there's currently a vote-buying pledge and a vote-buying contract but
nobody's using either.

I would like to mention that my vote-buying contract got destroyed when
Contracts came into effect, and ATMunn's vote-buying pledge only applies to
elections which have already been resolved. Thus, I believe that there
isn't actually an active "vote-buying pledge".

天火狐

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal Clearing out our win-cons

[Josh T]

I think I have one trust token that nobody else has, and doesn't think it
make sense to track mine because of how few I have. I like the idea of
having a long goal in mind, although I really don't have any beef with
having underused mechanics.

It may be worth pointing out that I have ideas for more gameplay, but real
life is keeping me busy. Maybe I'll actually submit a serious proposal for
my 1 year anniversary on Agora in a fortnight.

天火狐

On 23 October 2017 at 20:59, ATMunn  wrote:

> On 10/23/2017 8:29 PM, VJ Rada wrote:
>
> Does anyone want to come forward as actually significantly tracking
>> their trust tokens? Because then I will admit that they have worth as
>> a wincon. But it seems to me they're just even less achievable Stamps
>> that nobody tracks.
>>
>> I track my trust tokens. I wouldn't be opposed to them being repealed
> though, as I will probably never win via them.
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Reinstating 狐票店

[Josh T]

Re: Cards:

The point isn't to specify cards for infractions, the point is to provide a
suggestion as to which cards are appropriate, with the understanding that
they will be assigned on a case-to-case basis depending on the specifics of
the situation.

Re: Announcement:

As written, do I just acknowledge that 48 hours have elapsed? I suppose I
could change it to intent, but given that I can be busy it's not the most
reliable.

天火狐

On 23 October 2017 at 02:20, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Assuming that Contracts are now a thing, I am going to reinstate the
> fox's
> > vote shoppe.
> >
> > If Contracts exist, I create the following contract, titled "狐票店", by
> paying
> > Agora 1 Shiny:
> > {{{
> > The player 天火狐 is the proprietor of 狐票店 (intended pronunciation
> > /kit͡sɯneçjoːteɴ/). E has the exclusive ability to amend this contract,
> and
> > CAN bar or unbar an entity from becoming a party to this contract by
> > announcement.
> >
> > The proprietor CAN make amendments to this contract by announcement,
> > automatically taking effect after 48 hours from the time of the
> > announcement.
> >
> > An unbarred entity CAN become a party to this contract via announcement.
> A
> > party to this contract CAN cease being a party to this contract by
> > announcement. All entities are considered unbarred unless they have been
> > barred.
> >
> > An unbarred party to this contract CAN invoke this contract by doing all
> of
> > the following, in the order they appear:
> > * The party selects a proposal or Agoran decision (henceforth the
> "target")
> > which (a) has been open for voting for at least 48 hours and (b) the
> > proprietor has yet to make a vote on it;
> > * The party announces they are invoking this contract, clearly specifying
> > the target e wishes to invoke this contract upon; failure to do so is
> > INEFFECTIVE. If the target's voting window becomes or is already closed,
> the
> > target is invalid, otherwise it is valid.
> >
> > When the aforementioned invocation has been made, an unbarred party to
> this
> > contract CAN:
> > * Make a bid on the invoked valid target by announcement and transferring
> > the bid, which consists of any combination of assets, to this contract.
> > * Retract a bid on a valid target they have made in whole from this
> contract
> > by announcement, whereby the contract will transfer the bid back to the
> > party who made the bid.
> > * If the party has made the most valuable bid on a valid target,
> (defined as
> > the party who has made the strictly greatest non-zero value bid,
> assessed at
> > the most recent market valuation of the Assets in Shinies available) they
> > CAN, on behalf of the proprietor, change the vote of the proprietor on
> the
> > target by announcing they are taking this action and paying the
> proprietor
> > one Shiny. Taking this action may be referred to as "making the fox
> vote".
> >
> > When the target is invalid, all of its non-(most valuable) bids are
> returned
> > to the party who made them, while the target's most valuable bid is
> > transferred to the proprietor.
>
> Sorry for not putting it with my other comments, but again, this needs
> a specific announcement to make it happen.
>
> -Aris
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Agoran Newspaper Repeal

[Josh T]

At least let me do the things I want to do with the office that I've held
off doing since I wanted to wait until Contracts was out.

天火狐

On 22 October 2017 at 17:55, VJ Rada  wrote:

> I _spend_ a shiny to _pend_ "Repeal the Reportor"
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 8:53 AM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
> > I think you mean pend, not spend.
> >
> > -Aris
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 2:52 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >> I create and spend a shiny to spend the following
> >> Name: Repeal the Reportor
> >> AI: 1
> >> Author: me
> >> Text: Repeal rule 2446 "The Agoran Newspaper"
> >>
> >> --
> >> From V.J. Rada
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Notice of Honour

[Josh T]

You can do as you intended, making the "if it is still possible" clause in
PSS' pledge false, thus alleviating eir duty to become Rulekeepor. Think of
it as "if you don't do it, they will".

天火狐

On 22 October 2017 at 10:44, Reuben Staley  wrote:

> Oh. Then it's PSS' responsibility now and not mine?
>
> --
> Trigon
>
> On Oct 22, 2017 8:40 AM, "Alexis Hunt"  wrote:
>
> That was only an intent; you haven't actually done it yet.
>
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 at 10:34 Reuben Staley 
> wrote:
>
>> Are people still not getting my messages? It's in a thread with the title
>> "Deputising for the rulekeepor".
>>
>> --
>> Trigon
>>
>> On Oct 22, 2017 8:31 AM, "Alexis Hunt"  wrote:
>>
>>> Huh? When?
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 22, 2017, 10:26 Reuben Staley, 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I don't think it's possible, as I have already deputized for rulekeepor.

 --
 Trigon

 On Oct 22, 2017 5:42 AM, "Publius Scribonius Scholasticus" <
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I pledge to deputize for the rulekeepor on October 19, 2017, if it is
 still possible.


 On 10/22/2017 12:14 AM, Alexis Hunt wrote:
 > Huh, you're right, I could have sworn I saw them there...
 >
 > Rulekeepor is definitely out of date on SLRs; anyone could deputise
 > for it with appropriate notice. They could also start an election,
 > perhaps with a campaign pledge to reinstate CFJ annotations?
 >
 > On Sun, 22 Oct 2017 at 00:13 Madeline  > wrote:
 >
 > I mean... I had noticed :P and the ADoP office itself being in
 > confusion
 > is really troubling...
 >
 >
 > On 2017-10-22 15:10, VJ Rada wrote:
 > > The FLR hasn't had them in a long time: certainly not since I've
 > been
 > > a player. I think Gaelan took them out.
 > >
 > > JDGA: I'm ironically not sure what you can deputize for because
 I'm
 > > late on my ADoP report (and am no longer ADoP) but I think it
 > might be
 > > just rulekeepor? o hasn't posted in about a week (I've kind of
 > missed
 > > him already haha) so it seems likely that he might miss this
 week's
 > > report but it would take another week for you to deputize.
 > Rulekeepor
 > > I think you can next week but not this week (or next month
 because
 > > Gaelan updated the FLR last month but forgot to file it as a
 > report).
 > > I think every other office is OK?
 > >
 > > And regarding the uploading: I certainly haven't uploaded my
 > weeklies
 > > to the website and nobody's really noticed. I think none of
 them are
 > > really in date rip. Except, obviously, uploading the ruleset is
 > > important.
 > >
 > > On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Alexis Hunt  > wrote:
 > >> On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 at 23:54 VJ Rada  > wrote:
 > >>> We really need to bring back rule annotations for important
 CFJs.
 > >>
 > >> The FLR has them, although I do not know if Gaelan has been
 > keeping them up
 > >> to date.
 > >>
 > >> https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/?2909 is the
 > original
 > >> precedent that I'm aware of (fun fact: "Wooble is a player" may
 > be the
 > >> single most common CFJ text of all time).
 > >
 > >
 >




>

Re: DIS: Silly Proposal Query

[Josh T]

Alas, wordplay in Japanese does not
invoke quite the same type of afterthought.

天火狐

On 16 October 2017 at 12:30, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, 16 Oct 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > About Silly proposals I am vexed:Of the rule's intention I am perplexed;
> > Ought the proposal's mood be most merry,
> > Or it's meaning and tone be contrary?
>
> The Rule's a blank slate
> With no preconceived notions
> Whatever you like
>
>
>
>

DIS: Silly Proposal Query

[Josh T]

About Silly proposals I am vexed:
Of the rule's intention I am perplexed;
Ought the proposal's mood be most merry,
Or it's meaning and tone be contrary?

天火狐

DIS: Re: BUS: 愚かな人

[Josh T]

Oh dear, I guess I should prepare for this.

天火狐

On 15 October 2017 at 16:22, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> I designate 天火狐 to be next week's Silly Person.
>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: [Surveyor] October Estate Auction

[Josh T]

Good job on noticing the extra comma there.

天火狐

On 12 October 2017 at 17:57, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> [Since we're on the subject of bad grammar, I might as well take care of
> this -
>  ain't getting any fresher.]
>
>
> On Tue, 10 Oct 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > This auction ended at Tue, 10 Oct 2017 19:30:33 -0400, with the
> following bids:
> >
> > * o, 1 sh., for emself.
> > * o, 80 sh., for emself. (Incuded a blurb.)
> > * G., 1,010 sh. for emself.
>
>
> I transfer the Estate of Dawsbergen to myself.
>
>
> I pledge that, if the below CFJ is found TRUE and survives the
> Reconsideration/Moot
> time frame, I will transfer 41 Shinies to Agora as unofficial payment for
> this (and
> no other purpose).  [41 shinies was the max bid I'd decided on last week,
> before I
> went and re-read the auction rule].
>
>
> I shiny-CFJ on the following statement, barring o:
>
>   G. owns the Estate of Dawsbergen.
>
>
> ARGUMENTS
>
> Regard the following hypothetical Rules clause:
>
> A player CAN do X by A, by B, or by C.
>
> I think there's only one reasonably clear interpretation of this clause,
> that the player has three independent methods for doing X, either by A,
> by B or by C.  The grammatical clues for this construct are the
> repetition of the term "by", and the "or" which (by clear grammatical
> rules) distributes over the list to "A or B or C."  It's pretty darn
> clear, and really the only sensible reading.
>
> Compare this directly with the language of R2491, with line breaks
> inserted for emphasis:
>
> The player who placed the winning bid CAN, and SHALL in a timely
> fashion, cause Agora to transfer the auctioned Estate to the winner
> by announcement,
> by paying Agora the amount of the bid, or
> by causing the winning Organization to pay Agora the amount of the
> bid.
>
> Exactly the same as the hypothetical example.  So I have simply opted
> for the first method (by announcement) for making the transfer, instead
> of the other methods ("by paying").
>
> That's my whole argument.  It's an argument, and it's mine.  But I've
> anticipated some counterarguments for your convenience:
>
> Q:  But don't you have to pay by announcement?  I thought that was the
> point of recent rules changes!  So the 'by announcement' shouldn't be
> separated from 'by paying Agora' because otherwise 'paying Agora'
> doesn't work?
>
> A:  "paying" is already a by-announcement action by R2166 (Assets).
> Moreover, CFJ 3557 recently found that the CAN and SHALL imply 'by
> announcement', so that implication should map onto all three methods in
> terms of announcing the reason for the payment.
>
> Q:  But other rules have this compound!  What about this:
>   Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending"
>   by announcement by: b) spending the current Pend Cost in shinies
> and this:
>   b) by announcement, and spending the current CFJ Cost in shinies,
>
> A:  None of those examples have an "or", real or implied.  And
> "spending" *isn't* a 'by announcement' action on its own, so it needs
> the support and the strongly-implied 'and'.
>
> Q:  But can't we read '...by A, by B, or by C' as 'by A and either
> (by B or by C)'?
>
> A:  That's a really poor inference from the grammar, and substituting
> a weakly-implied "and" for a strongly-implied 'or' is a complete
> reversal of meaning, not a minor grammatical quirk.
>
> Q:  But the *intent* of the rule is clearly...
>
> A:  This is Agora - text of the rules, dude.
>
>
> EVIDENCE
>
> Rule 2491 ("Estate Auctions")
> [Note:  the most recent SLR/FLR has this rule incorrectly-written due to
> a copy/past error.  I've taken this text from Proposal 7888.]
>
>
>  At the start of each month, if Agora owns at least one Estate,
>  the Surveyor CAN, by announcement, and SHALL in a timely
>  fashion, put one Estate which is owned by Agora up for auction.
>  Each auction ends seven days after it begins.
>
>  During an auction, any player CAN bid a number of Shinies on
>  eir own behalf, by announcement, or on behalf of any
>  Organization for which such a bid is Appropriate, by
>  announcement, provided the bid is higher than any
>  previously-placed bid in the same auction.
>
>  If, at the end of the auction, there is a single highest bid,
>  then that player or Organization wins the auction. The player
>  who placed the winning bid CAN, and SHALL in a timely fashion,
>  cause Agora to transfer the auctioned Estate to the winner by
>  announcement, by paying Agora the amount of the bid, or by
>  causing the winning Organization to pay Agora the amount of the
>  bid.
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: PROTO: [Proposal] Clearing up language confusion for new players

[Josh T]

I object to this for hopefully obvious reasons, given my history with
playing with language.

天火狐

On 12 October 2017 at 09:34, ATMunn .  wrote:

> Title: "Clearing up Language Confusion" [CuLC in short]
> Author: ATMunn
> AI: 1
>
> Create a power-1 rule titled "The Language of Agora"
> {
> A language is a set of symbols, sounds and rules used to communicate
> information.
> The official language that should be used in all Agoran fora is Spivak.
>
> The Spivak language is defined as being nearly identical to English except
> for the following:
> * The pronouns "he," "she," and "they" have been replaced with "e"
> * The pronouns "him," "her," and "them" have been replaced with "em"
> * The adjectives "his," "her," and "their" have been replaced with "eir"
> * The pronouns "his," "hers," and "theirs" have been replaced with "eirs"
> * The pronouns "himself," "herself," and "themself" have been replaced
> with "emself"
> }
>
> Let me know what you think. I've had this idea for a little while now, as
> a way to make it clear for new players why we use these abnormal pronouns;
> and now seems like a great time as the pend cost is only 1 shiny, so I
> might as well take advantage of that while I can.
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Actions

[Josh T]

After checking I think you're right. Oh well, I guess people can just live
with not referring to my agencies with sensible names.

天火狐

On 6 October 2017 at 21:31, Ørjan Johansen <oer...@nvg.ntnu.no> wrote:

> On Thu, 5 Oct 2017, Josh T wrote:
>
> Seeing the recent report reminds me that I never resolved the quoted
>> intention, and I do so now.
>>
>
> I think you're too late - there's a general 14 day limit on dependent
> actions.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: 🎵Spooky Scary Skeletonsð沁ｵ

[Josh T]

I just wanted to mention how amused I am at the emoji getting mangled in
new and exciting ways in the title.

天火狐

On 28 September 2017 at 23:02, Gaelan Steele  wrote:

> Were Silly Proposals a game concept at that point?
>
> Gaelan
>
> > On Sep 28, 2017, at 7:33 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 28 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >
> >>> From the archives (by memory):
> >>
> >> AN INSANE PROPOSAL IS A PROPOSAL IN ALL CAPS.
> >>
> >> VOTES FOR AN INSANE PROPOSAL ARE SECRET AND CANNOT BE DISCUSSED,
> >> EVEN IN PRIVATE.
> >>
> >> IF NOT A SINGLE FOR VOTE IS CAST FOR AN INSANE PROPOSAL, THE
> >> PROPOSERS WIN THE GAME.
> >
> > Good times. I created the first version of that, although I understand
> people later rewrote it because they found it too unclear, not the least of
> which because it was a Silly Proposal and so had to be in verse:
> >
> > ()()()()
> > There exists an imbalance. To correct this inanity,
> > This Rule is created, enTitled "Insanity":
> >
> >  An Interested Proposal is Insane, if it contains no minuscule
> letter.
> >  (That is the opposite of CAPITAL, for those who know not better.)
> >
> >  For such a Proposal, until the Voting Period has ended:
> >  there shall be no discussing Votes, or this Rule has been bended.
> >  Nor shall a Player Vote in public, only to Assessor.
> >  The Votes shall be unknown to others, even employer and professor.
> >
> >  And should it occur (due to greed or sin)
> >  that no one Votes FOR it, the Proposer shall Win.
> > ()()()()
> >
> > (The "imbalance" refers to Sane Proposals, which iirc used
> one-Player-one-vote at a time when it was otherwise easy to manipulate
> voting strength.)
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Ørjan.
>
>

DIS: Re: OFF: [Assessor] Resolution of Proposal(s) 7876-7898

[Josh T]

I'm not going to officially CoE on this, but I am listed not by 天火狐

天火狐

On 26 September 2017 at 15:49, nichdel <nich...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Good luck Gaelan.
>
> I resolve the decision(s) to adopt proposal(s) 7876-7898as below.
>
> 
>
> [This notice resolves the Agoran decisions of whether to adopt the
>  following proposals.  For each decision, the options available to
>  Agora are ADOPTED (*), REJECTED (x), and FAILED QUORUM (!). If a
>  decision's voting period is still ongoing, I end it immediately
>  before resolving it and after resolving the previous decision.]
>
> ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend fee
> 
> ---
> 7876*  o 2.0  Float On o   1 AP
> 7877x  CB [1]1.0  Monsters CB [1]  1 AP
> 7878x  Gaelan1.0  Not So Cuddly NowAris1 sh.
> 7879*  o, Aris   1.0  You can take it with you o   1 sh.
> 7880*  o 1.0  Agency Typo Fix  o   1 sh.
> 7881*  o, [2]1.0  Stamp CAN Patch  o   1 sh.
> 7882*  o, K, ais523  1.0  Welcome Package CAN Patcho   1 sh.
> 7883*  G.1.0  Fear v2.1G.  1 sh.
> 7884x  V.J Rada  3.0  Mother, May I?   V.J Rada1 sh.
> 7885*  o, [3]3.0  Restraining Bolt o   1 sh.
> 7886*  Aris, [4] 2.0  Card Reform and Expansion v4 Aris1 sh.
> 7887*  Aris  3.0  SLR Ratification Aris1 sh.
> 7888*  o, V.J Rada   3.1  BILLY MAYS HERE  o   1 sh.
> 7889*  Aris  3.0  Agora Protection Act Aris1 sh.
> 7890*  Aris, G.  2.0  Improved Buoyancy v2 Aris1 sh.
> 7891x  Gaelan1.0  Proletarian Revolution   Gaelan  1 sh.
> 7892*  Aris  1.0  Truthfulness v2  Aris1 sh.
> 7893x  V.J Rada, [1] 2.0  Zimbabwe-style economics V.J Rada1 sh.
> 7894x  G.2.0  Shiny WeatherG.  1 AP
> 7895x  Gaelan3.0  No Telepathy Gaelan  1 sh.
> 7896x  P.S.S. [5]3.0  Registration Delay Fix   P.S.S.  1 AP
> 7897*  CB [1]1.0  University Funding   Aris1 sh.
> 7898*  G.2.0  Community Chest  G.  1 AP
>
> || 7876 | 7877 | 7878 | 7879 | 7880 | 7881 | 7882 | 7883 | 7884 |
> |+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
> |Aris| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| A|
> |Bayushi | F| A| A| F| F| F| F| P| P|
> |CB  | F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F|
> |G.  | F| F| A| F| F| F| F| F| A|
> |grok| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A|
> |Josh T. | N| F| N| N| N| F| F| A| N|
> |K   | F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| A|
> |Nichdel | F| A| P| F| F| F| F| P| P|
> |o   | F| A| P| F| F| F| F| P| A|
> |PSS | F| A| F| F| F| F| F| F| A|
> |VJ Rada | F| A| A| F| F| F| F| F| P|
> |+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
> |F/A | 9/1  | 5/6  | 4/4  | 9/1  | 9/1  | 10/1 | 10/1 | 6/2  | 1/6  |
> |AI  | 2.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 1.0  | 3.0  |
> |V   | 10   | 11   | 10   | 10   | 10   | 11   | 11   | 11   | 10   |
> |Q   | 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3| 3|
> |P   | T| F| F| T| T| T| T| T| F|
>
> || 7885 | 7886 | 7887 | 7888 | 7889 | 7890 | 7891 | 7892 | 7893 |
> |+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
> |Aris| F| F| F| F| F| F| A| F| F|
> |Bayushi | F| F| P| F| F| F| P| P| P|
> |CB  | F| F| F| F    | F| F| F| F| F|
> |G.  | A| F| F| F| A| F| F| A| A|
> |grok| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A| A|
> |Josh T. | F| F| F| F| F| N| N| N| N|
> |K   | F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F| F|
> |Nichdel | P| P| F| F| F| F| A| F| A|
> |o  

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Vital History Gone Missing!

[Josh T]

Google does kind of fall flat on its face when it comes to tricky honorific
expressions, especially since the register of addressing royalty is
regulated to historical fiction authors who decide to be sticklers on the
subject.

天火狐

On 27 September 2017 at 10:38, VJ Rada  wrote:

> "I am fortunate that the princess will be made available to Agora."
>
> Google did that pretty well, actually. Although I doubt you meant
> "made available".
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Vital History Gone Missing!

[Josh T]

姫様がアゴラに有らせられるのは幸いになります。

天火狐

On 26 September 2017 at 22:17, Alexis Hunt  wrote:

> I register.
>
> I Point a Finger at Publius Scribonius Scholasticus alleging that, as
> Registrar, e has committed the Class-2 Crime of Tardiness by not reporting
> last week on the players deregistered by Writ of Fage, as required by Rule
> 1789.
>
> -Alexis
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

I see. I forgot about that actually. Carry on.

天火狐

On Sep 26, 2017 21:15, "Owen Jacobson" <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:

>
> > On Sep 26, 2017, at 11:25 AM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I haven't been credited with it, so I assumed it has failed, since my 1
> stamp is from August.
> >
> > 天火狐
>
> I have two records for this:
>
> 2017-08-23 ! 天火狐 created a stamp
> 2017-09-08 ! 天火狐 created a stamp
>
> However, you lost one to Gaelan’s stamp-destruction scam:
>
> 2017-09-07 ! Gaelan destroyed all Stamps
>
> (Note that this is after the first, but before the second).
>
> I can dig up the specific messages to verify this, if you’d like, but
> that’s what I’m basing my assertion on.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

I haven't been credited with it, so I assumed it has failed, since my 1
stamp is from August.

天火狐

On 26 September 2017 at 10:14, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 26, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I purchase a stamp for 1 shiny.
>
> You last created a Stamp on Sept. 4th, which is within the same Agoran
> Month as this attempt. I _think_ this was ineffective:
>
> > Once per month, a player MAY [sic], by announcement, transfer to Agora
> the Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Such is karma

[Josh T]

@o: Where were you when G. asked about terminology?

天火狐

On 25 September 2017 at 22:18, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Sep 24, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>- Any player with a karma of 7 or greater is a Samurai.
>- Any player with a karma of -7 or less is an Eta.
>
>
> I am _deeply_ uncomfortable with this terminology. As recently as the
> mid-19th century, Japanese magistrates considered eta to be worth “one
> seventh of a person,” and - going back further - the common perception is
> that a samurai would experience no consequences for killing an eta, as they
> are unpersons.
>
> I’ll likely still vote for the proposal, because I appreciate the system
> as a whole, but I’d also vote for a follow-on that modifies the labels..
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[Josh T]

I can hear you fine.

天火狐

On Sep 25, 2017 08:40, "Nicholas Evans"  wrote:

> Somewhere on the wiki is instructions for a gmail filter that should save
> any agora emails that might go to spam. It works for me (i receive all of
> trigon's emails with a 'saved from spam by filter' notice attached).
> Someone should dig it up as I'm in transit for the rest of the day.
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 1:52 AM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>
>> Oh I got two of yours as spam and two of PSS's also as spam! Don't
>> know why. I think that made one of my old ADoP reports inaccurate,
>> because one of the registrar reports was listed as spam.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:51 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>> > Got that one, I think you're now good. Yeah, I'm on gmail too lmao.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Rubin Stacy 
>> wrote:
>> >> Literally how? Most of this list uses Gmail. Maybe it just ended up in
>> your
>> >> Spam folder? You probably already checked, but I'm just trying to come
>> up
>> >> with any reason this would have failed because I'm tired of this mess.
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 24, 2017 11:57 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith > >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > On Sun, 2017-09-24 at 22:50 -0600, Rubin Stacy wrote:
>> >>> >> I made a new gmail so that I can play the game. Please respond so I
>> >>> >> know that it's working now.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I received this, at least.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > ais523
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> From V.J. Rada
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>

Re: DIS: Economy and Games

[Josh T]

I have an idea for making goods which is bouncing around in my mind, but I
haven't the time to sit down and write it out. It'd also be my first
proposal, so I'm a bit apprehensive at throwing it out into the wild
without double-checking some basic things first.

天火狐

On 23 September 2017 at 19:01, VJ Rada  wrote:

> I think we need to encourage spending. People ignore the current
> agoran economy too much. People don't ignore the real economy because
> they need to eat. My vision is to have it be completely impossible to
> meaningfully participate without paying for it, thus forcing economic
> participation.
>
> I also think we need inflation to match new players coming in. And we
> need more incentivisation of inter-player spending, rather than just
> player-agora spending. The few businesses people have set up right now
> (Celestial Fire-Fox's vote-buying thing for example) just aren't being
> used.
>
> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 8:14 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > There's two separate issues:
> >
> > 1.  How fast should a brand new player be able to catch up with an old
> player;
> >
> > 2.  How much consistent advantage should an officer have over a
> non-officer.
> >
> > It's confounded because most old players are officers, but given the
> welcome
> > package I think it's mostly a problem of (2) not (1).
> >
> > On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Nic Evans wrote:
> >> On 09/23/2017 04:47 PM, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> >>   I think a good way to analyze the game design is to guess in how
> much time the average player (eith average activeness and skill) will
> achieve a win (or dictatorship) given their join date.
> >>
> >> If its not the same (or very similar) for someone who was around at the
> start than someone who joins later, then its Gerontocratic imo (on that
> front). For example, the case where the total capital
> >> of all active players, in comparison to what a newcomer has (Welcome
> Pack), grows over time.
> >>
> >>
> >> New players shouldn't have such a handicap that they overcome
> consistently good play from existing players. And the stamp win isn't
> restricted to one-time. New players can still win with as much work as
> >> old players, but the old players have a lead by virtue of starting
> sooner.
> >>
> >>   On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 at 22:26, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>   On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> >>   > As for the gerontocracy argument: Money is an inherently
> gerontocratic system.
> >>   > It abstracts value from labor in a way that allows arbitrary
> allocation.
> >>
> >>   Ok, I've been mulling this over for the past week or so, and some
> broad thoughts.
> >>
> >>   I think we should step away from thinking of this in terms of
> Economies and
> >>   think of it in terms of Game Design.
> >>
> >>   On the supply side, what we have is classic exponential asset
> growth.  Base
> >>   assets let you get things which then let your assets grow faster
> (I'm
> >>   particularly thinking of the recent Agoraculture here).  This can
> be very
> >>   fun - the fun part of the grind games is when your properties
> start *really*
> >>   producing.  But the problem is that it leads to early
> determination of
> >>   winners versus losers, and if the game lasts too long, it's a
> frustrating
> >>   slog for the losers.  In a game with no fixed end (e.g. real
> life), this is
> >>   the gerontocracy.
> >>
> >>   It's greatly exacerbated by the fact that distribution of
> valuable assets
> >>   is via Auction.  Auctions are inherently exponential (a slight
> lead in
> >>   your base asset leads to you winning a big valuable asset).
> Moreover,
> >>   right now, the auction properties are far too rare, so you have
> to compete
> >>   directly with the gerontocracy to buy in.  My main reason to
> hoard right now
> >>   is to have any chance in an auction.
> >>
> >>   I think the solution is some minimum income, and drastically
> reducing the
> >>   buy-in difficulties for auctions (I'd do that through increased
> land).
> >>
> >>   On the spending side:  quite frankly, we don't have enough
> diversity of
> >>   things that actually buy game advantage to be worth spending on.
> We need
> >>   to add different pathways to accumulation and specialization.
> >>
> >>   There's a few ways to organize adding things to buy.  I
> personally would
> >>   add permanent political buy-in based on our old Oligarchic
> system, and
> >>   simultaneously re-form the Speaker position as we talked about
> last week.
> >>   This would be entirely separate from land.  (there are other
> things we could
> >>   invent to buy, this is one obvious addition).  I'd also think
> about specialized
> >>   roles (e.g. only allowing Farmers to own land, and you can't
> easily change
> >>   whether you're a farmer or 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Frivolous but harmless scam attempt of the week

[Josh T]

I mean, I guess that's helpful, but I was mostly humoring Gaelan on em
questioning my remark about how I don't think VJ Rada's sentence is a
deceleration or successful action because "it doesn't jive with my
understanding of language which Agora recognizes" (especially since Agora
*doesn't* recognize an official language).

To be a little bit more specific, since this is a nomic, and we've had
minutiae determine the outcome or interpretation of actions / documents, I
think the lack of proper formatting nullifies any effect VJ Rada may have
intended with eir post. That being said, we should talk about this because
they (or someone else) can just try this again after proofreading.

天火狐

On 23 September 2017 at 17:06, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> If you paste the basic 我反对。 string into Google translate, it auto-detects
> Chinese
> and spits out "I Object."  It's pretty much as clear a translation as you
> can get
> if you're going to allow that sort of thing at all.
>
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > I can't quite explain it. Could you be so kind as to enlighten me as to
> the meaning of those words,
> > as how it pertains to VJ Rada's sentence?
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 23 September 2017 at 15:43, Gaelan Steele <g...@canishe.com> wrote:
> >   Why not?
> >
> >   Gaelan
> >   > On Sep 23, 2017, at 8:44 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >   >
> >   > I do not believe that this was effective.
> >   > 
> >   > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >   > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >> On Sep 23, 2017, at 11:42 AM, Gaelan Steele <gael...@icloud.com>
> wrote:
> >   >>
> >   >> I have aimed to make this response as concise as possible.
> >   >>
> >   >> 我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。
> >   >> 我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反对。我反å
> > [...]
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registering

[Josh T]

That sounds like fairly reasonable statistics. If someone writes out some
specific scenarios I suppose I'll take a look and do some number-crunching
when I am slightly less busy.

天火狐

On 23 September 2017 at 16:36, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> It sounds like the kind of thing that could work.  Right now, what I'm
> really
> dying for is for someone to do a very simple simulation.  E.g. assume N
> players,
> M officers, each player pends a random# of proposals a week - how do things
> fluctuate and do holdings diverge between have and have-nots?  Then we
> could
> try various scenarios such as taxes.  (coding this was on my todo list but
> not
> likely soon...)
>
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 2017, at 3:46 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > > On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > >> On Sep 22, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I suspect that welcome packages are considerably too large, but I
> don’t think that
> > >> that was at all obvious at the time. Consider: in the last month or
> so, the pending
> > >> price has fluctuated between 1 and, approximately, 6 sh. repeatedly.
> We’ve actually
> > >> managed to keep most shinies in the hands of player. 50 sh. is enough
> to author
> > >> and pend more proposals than I have written since I started playing,
> more than a
> > >> year ago - and each Welcome Package causes the pend price to drop at
> least one full
> > >> shiny in the following week.
> > >>
> > >> I strongly suspect that that’s more economic impact than intended or
> wanted. I
> > >> know you’re planning to vote against any economy proposals that
> doesn’t enact a
> > >> reliable source of shinies in one form or another, but would you
> consider
> > >> supporting one that shrinks welcome packages?
> > >
> > > You mean instead of fixing basic income, do something that makes the
> problem worse?
> > > No, I don't think I'd support that, and in general I disagree that
> this is the
> > > issue to fix.
> >
> > Fair enough, it never hurts to ask.
> >
> > What about something like:
> >
> > * To “distribute” an amount fungible asset to a set of recipients is to
> transfer one instance of that asset at a time to the recipient with the
> fewest of that asset, until either no more instances of the asset are
> eligible to be distributed or the number of instances so transferred equals
> the amount to be distributed. If two or more recipients are tied for the
> fewest of an asset, then the recipient that most recently became eligible
> to own the asset shall be selected.
> >
> > * The Tax Rate is a singleton natural switch which can take values
> between 0 and 100, inclusive, tracked by the Secretary. The Tax Rate has a
> default value of 50.
> >
> > [It’s a switch for consistency and ease of tracking, but it can only be
> flipped by proposal.]
> >
> > * When a player pays Agora, the Secretary CAN cause Agora to distribute
> a percentage of that payment equal to the Tax Rate to all players, and
> SHALL do so in a timely fashion. As part of eir weekly duties, the
> Secretary SHALL do so for all payments to Agora that have not yet been
> scattered.
> >
> > [This gets rounded up, the Assets rule takes care of that, so the net
> result is that when the Pend Value is 1 sh., every shiny spent pending
> proposals goes to a player. It’s a trickle, but it’s a trickle proportional
> to the amount of activity going on.]
> >
> > -o
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: New player, just registered

[Josh T]

I think that is a wise plan. I feel like I didn't do very much aside from
watch for the first six months I was playing (my organization
notwithstanding).

天火狐

On 22 September 2017 at 13:25, ATMunn .  wrote:

> Thanks for the welcome package, whether it actually worked or not.
>
> I still have no real idea what I'm going to do; so for now I'll just watch
> and see what comes up. I'm sure I'll find something to do sooner or later.
>
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 11:35 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 21, 2017, at 9:35 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:
>>
>> > Hey! I'm ATMunn.
>> > I discovered Agora a little while back, and just decided it sounded
>> interesting, so I joined.
>> >
>> > I've seen some of the messages that have been so far, and honestly I
>> have no idea what's going on, or what to do. :P
>> > But it seems like there's a really friendly community here, so I'm sure
>> you all can help me learn the ropes.
>> >
>> > I've also joined the IRC channel. I'm usually quite active on IRC, so
>> you can pretty much always contact me there (I may not respond right away
>> though if I'm busy).
>>
>> Welcome!
>>
>> 10 Fun Things To Do In Agora When You’re Dead:
>>
>> * Scam a dictatorship and single-handedly cause a month-long lull in the
>> game.
>>
>> * Sit on an eighth of the economic resources and do nothing obvious with
>> them. (Cough.)
>>
>> * Write a proposal that is impossible to vote against.
>>
>> * Vote against it anyways.
>>
>> * Demonstrate that an innocent-looking mechanic is far more powerful and
>> useful than anyone intended.
>>
>> * Design a subgame. Try to get it enacted into the rules.
>>
>> * Run for an office.
>>
>> * Run from an office.
>>
>> * Find the most unlikely interpretations of the rules and call endless
>> CFJs to support those interpretations.
>>
>> * Win.
>>
>> I’ve kicked over a welcome package (Rule 2499) for you. This should give
>> you enough shinies to put forward several proposals and calls for
>> judgement, if it catches your fancy to do so.
>>
>> Note that by a strict reading of the rules, that action did not work -
>> this is a known issue and proposals are in flight to fix that problem. We
>> have an established agreement to keep records as if that the actions work
>> anyways, and I plan to ratify the results retroactively once the rules are
>> fixed. Reading up on the history of this problem might be interesting if
>> you have interest in how the rules function.
>>
>> -o
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] You thought there was a lot of elections last time. Initiating 8 (!) elections.

[Josh T]

I typed up a long response and then realized that I think we might have
differing ideas of what it means to talk about "whole votes", thus I am
going to ask; what did you mean by "count PRESENT as a whole vote"?

天火狐

On 14 September 2017 at 23:48, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's a conditional, which is totally different. G's here talking
> about an instant runoff ballot of
> 1. Jeff
> 2. PRESENT
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 1:38 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > It sounds like having endorse or PRESENT as the tail of a list of votes
> is
> > acceptable. This allows things like "I endorse A, unless eir vote
> indicates
> > preference for B, in which case my vote is PRESENT."
> >
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 14 September 2017 at 19:09, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> My current policy is to count PRESENT as a whole vote. Endorse can't
> >> be a whole vote bc people keep saying things like "vote CB, else
> >> endorse G". My current policy is to count that vote as a list of {CB,
> >> all of G's votes in order except for the vote for CB, which is first}
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >> >> I have no idea how to handle PRESENT in runoff voting.  Is it a
> >> >> replacement
> >> >> for the whole list, or is it an option on the list?  If it's the
> first
> >> >> option
> >> >> on a ranked voting, is PRESENT "eliminated" if it doesn't win, so my
> >> >> vote doesn't
> >> >> end up counting towards quorum?  And what happens if PRESENT is the
> >> >> majority?
> >> >> is everyone else eliminated?  I'm not sure if the "standard
> definition
> >> >> of instant
> >> >> runoff" covers this.   So let's test that in some slightly-less
> >> >> essential offices.
> >> >> Fun!!
> >> >
> >> > This question is also a concern for endorsements.
> >> >
> >> > Take the following results votes for voters P...Z for candidates A..G,
> >> > then my
> >> > vote:
> >> >
> >> > P:  {A, B, C}
> >> > Q:  {A, B, C}
> >> > R:  {A, B, C}
> >> >
> >> > S:  {D, E, F}
> >> > T:  {D, E, F}
> >> > U:  {D, E, F}
> >> >
> >> > Z:  {G, A}
> >> >
> >> > Me:  {endorse Z, D}
> >> >
> >> > From first-choices, we have A=3, D=3, G=2 (1 certain G, 1
> endorsement).
> >> >
> >> > G is eliminated.
> >> >
> >> > So if we eliminate my first conditional choice, "endorse Z", then the
> >> > second
> >> > vote on my list is for D, D wins.
> >> >
> >> > But if we keep my "endorse Z" vote, and G is eliminated, then I'm
> >> > endorsing Z's
> >> > second choice, and A wins.
> >> >
> >> > Which is right, if either?
> >> >
> >> > The only way I can really make sense of this is if PRESENT and Endorse
> >> > are
> >> > whole votes (i.e. substitute for the whole list, not part of a list).
> >> > But
> >> > I'm not sure if the rules say that, or are broken?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> From V.J. Rada
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Make Your Home Shine

[Josh T]

Here's two more:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-May/034600.html
(the one quoted directly in the link, and the one quoted by that message)

天火狐

On 14 September 2017 at 22:14, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 14, 2017, at 9:55 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Read line 1 of the pledge.  If part of the pledge is saying I CAN revoke
> it (including a method),
> > I can do so as part of keeping the pledge, I assume.
>
> It’s not at all clear how that works, or even if it works, but the intent
> is clear and I think it would be unfair not to allow you to stop upholding
> a promise in _precisely the way you initially promised to do so_. I’m
> content to leave this pledge out of the next version of the proposal, and
> to wait until you resolve this notice before revising the proposal.
>
> V.J Rada, thanks for catching two pledges I missed!
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] You thought there was a lot of elections last time. Initiating 8 (!) elections.

[Josh T]

We could use the Unicode collation algorithm, I guess. Your point is noted
however.

天火狐

On 14 September 2017 at 23:46, Owen Jacobson <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:

>
> > On Sep 14, 2017, at 11:43 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I believe that the term "alphabetical order" can be used to mean
> "lexicographical order", of which increasing unicode codepoint values is a
> naturalistic choice.
>
> Objection: ‘alphonse’ generally comes before ‘Bob’ in an alphabetical
> list. Hence my question about your name: I suspected someone would apply
> “lexical order” but my name comes significantly after VJ Rada’s name by
> that standard, and I’m not convinced it should.
>
> Generally, If we mean lexical order, we should say so. Collation is a hard
> problem and using terms fuzzily only makes it harder.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] You thought there was a lot of elections last time. Initiating 8 (!) elections.

[Josh T]

I believe that the term "alphabetical order" can be used to mean
"lexicographical order", of which increasing unicode codepoint values is a
naturalistic choice.

天火狐

On 14 September 2017 at 20:19, grok (caleb vines) 
wrote:

> For reference: if you resolve that vote as present and that vote causes
> PSS to be elected, I will probably CFJ the assessment.
>
>
> -grok
>
>
> On Sep 14, 2017 7:15 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>
> I would say use eir preferred English character titles but there are
> two different ones which start with different letters. I guess if
> there is a tie here, I would resolve as PRESENT due to ambiguity.
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 10:04 AM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
> > There isn't one. For anyone who wants to try this, I'd suggest
> > ascending order of unicode code points. In fact, I may propose making
> > a rule that defines alphabetical order that way.
> >
> > -Aris
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:01 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sep 14, 2017, at 4:11 PM, grok (caleb vines) 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sep 13, 2017 6:22 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
> >>
> >> Please note the already ongoing election for agronomist.
> >>
> >> I initiate the elections for and the agoran decisions for the
> >> determination of the Arbitor, the Superintendent, the Tailor, the
> >> Promotor, the Referee, the Registrar, the Surveyor, and the
> >> Rulekeepor. These elections are either legal under the 90 day rule or
> >> are vacant offices. The vote collector is the ADoP and the quorum is
> >> 2.0.
> >>
> >> --
> >> >From V.J Rada
> >>
> >>
> >> In the election for registrar , I vote for the player with the most
> votes
> >> that is not the incumbent, using alphabetical order as a tiebreaker.
> >>
> >>
> >> What is the alphabetical ordering of 天火狐 with respect to myself, and
> why?
> >>
> >> -o
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] You thought there was a lot of elections last time. Initiating 8 (!) elections.

[Josh T]

It sounds like having endorse or PRESENT as the tail of a list of votes is
acceptable. This allows things like "I endorse A, unless eir vote indicates
preference for B, in which case my vote is PRESENT."

天火狐

On 14 September 2017 at 19:09, VJ Rada  wrote:

> My current policy is to count PRESENT as a whole vote. Endorse can't
> be a whole vote bc people keep saying things like "vote CB, else
> endorse G". My current policy is to count that vote as a list of {CB,
> all of G's votes in order except for the vote for CB, which is first}
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 5:00 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 14 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >> I have no idea how to handle PRESENT in runoff voting.  Is it a
> replacement
> >> for the whole list, or is it an option on the list?  If it's the first
> option
> >> on a ranked voting, is PRESENT "eliminated" if it doesn't win, so my
> vote doesn't
> >> end up counting towards quorum?  And what happens if PRESENT is the
> majority?
> >> is everyone else eliminated?  I'm not sure if the "standard definition
> of instant
> >> runoff" covers this.   So let's test that in some slightly-less
> essential offices.
> >> Fun!!
> >
> > This question is also a concern for endorsements.
> >
> > Take the following results votes for voters P...Z for candidates A..G,
> then my
> > vote:
> >
> > P:  {A, B, C}
> > Q:  {A, B, C}
> > R:  {A, B, C}
> >
> > S:  {D, E, F}
> > T:  {D, E, F}
> > U:  {D, E, F}
> >
> > Z:  {G, A}
> >
> > Me:  {endorse Z, D}
> >
> > From first-choices, we have A=3, D=3, G=2 (1 certain G, 1 endorsement).
> >
> > G is eliminated.
> >
> > So if we eliminate my first conditional choice, "endorse Z", then the
> second
> > vote on my list is for D, D wins.
> >
> > But if we keep my "endorse Z" vote, and G is eliminated, then I'm
> endorsing Z's
> > second choice, and A wins.
> >
> > Which is right, if either?
> >
> > The only way I can really make sense of this is if PRESENT and Endorse
> are
> > whole votes (i.e. substitute for the whole list, not part of a list).
> But
> > I'm not sure if the rules say that, or are broken?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Josh T]

Japanese as a general rule doesn't distinguish between singular and plural,
and English tends to keep the original language's plurals. It's one piece
of sushi, two pieces of sushi etc.; one samurai, two samurai, etc.

I'd probably pick eta because it's historical and short. We can pretend
people are Greek letters if some future person gets offended.

I do agree there should be some way to "recenter" the karma spread. I don't
have a good suggestion at the moment as to how to accomplish this.

天火狐

On 13 September 2017 at 15:58, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> Thanks!  If you were picking one, which would you pick?  (And what's the
> singular
> version of that, does it match "is a Samurai" as both singular and plural)
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning
> farm servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste
> system, since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was was actually
> > the highest commoner class (above craftsmen and merchants); the outcasts
> of the Japanese feudal system were the *eta* (historical name, somewhat
> derogatory today, means "full of defilement"), *hinin*
> > ("non-humans"), or the modern politically correct term in English,
> *burakumin* ("hamlet people", referring to how they were exiled from towns
> and cities to have their own hamlets). Hopefully that helped.
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >   On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >   >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese
> term for serf?).
> >
> >   Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of
> Japanese
> >   feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements
> (in English
> >   alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call
> the whole
> >   thing a tea ceremony...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: DIS: a relief valve

[Josh T]

The Japanese term for a (western) serf is *noudo*, literally meaning farm
servant. If you want something from the historical Japanese caste system,
since they took after Confucian ideas, peasant was was actually the highest
commoner class (above craftsmen and merchants); the outcasts of the
Japanese feudal system were the *eta* (historical name, somewhat derogatory
today, means "full of defilement"), *hinin* ("non-humans"), or the modern
politically correct term in English, *burakumin* ("hamlet people",
referring to how they were exiled from towns and cities to have their own
hamlets). Hopefully that helped.

天火狐

On 13 September 2017 at 15:38, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >   - Any player with a karma of -5 or less is a (Japanese term for
> serf?).
>
> Just as an addendum, if 天火狐 or anyone with better knowledge of Japanese
> feudal/cultural terms than me wants to suggest flavor improvements (in
> English
> alphabet please), I'd gratefully add them.  Maybe we should call the whole
> thing a tea ceremony...
>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: Agora Sky News, vol. ½

[Josh T]

I mostly didn't expect that my editor uses different sized tabs compared to
my client after it gets sent. I'll need to change to space-tabulated manual
spacing for next issue.

@Aris Thank you.

天火狐

On 13 September 2017 at 15:03, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > I do apologize if the formatting is wonky, there are some teething
> issues at present
> > and I hope to get it resolved by next week.
>
> Format looked perfect to me!  (or if not "perfect", very readable).  +1
> like overall.
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Yellow Card to Superintendent

[Josh T]

I do suppose that makes my attempt to issue the Superintendent a card is
quite moot. Carry on.

天火狐

On 11 September 2017 at 08:02, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> The office of Superintendent is empty.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 2017, at 12:32 AM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I issue a Yellow Card to the Superintendent due to eir tardiness in
> publishing the September Monthly Agency report. Eir apology must contain
> the following words:
> >
> > * Shadow
> > * Shahadah
> > * Shakespeare
> > * Shaman
> > * Shameless
> > * Shanghaied
> > * Shark
> > * Shiitake
> > * Shmaltz
> > * Shrubbery
> >
> > 天火狐
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

I suppose it's better than "Josh". Don't overdo it, I guess, but it's not
like I can stop you.

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 20:58, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll do "Fox" then (much how I say PSS and not the full name every lol)
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:56 AM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> (also, for what it's worth, I also go hunting for PSS's full name and
>> copy/
>> paste whenever I need it :P )
>>
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> > Thanks!  I was remembering that you'd given a favored transliteration
>> back
>> > then, but couldn't find it.
>> >
>> > I think I'll add this as gratuitous arguments to that case log, so I'll
>> > know where to find it :).
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Josh T wrote:
>> > > I thought I posted it somewhere, but evidently I didn't. I wrote it
>> when the
>> > > CFJ said that I should change it to a transliteration thereof, and
>> provide
>> > > a preferred reading. The preferred reading/transliteration is
>> "amatsukagitsune"
>> > > and translates to "celestial fire-fox" (with that reading---there are
>> other
>> > > meanings possible depending on the reading since Japanese is fun that
>> way).
>> > > I suppose "the celestial fox" is acceptable if it makes the sentence
>> flow
>> > > better, but I would prefer to have the characters used as it appears
>> as I
>> > > sign it; using Josh is anathema. Now that everyone knows, I expect no
>> more
>> > > mess-ups from everyone currently subscribed, yes?
>> > > 天火狐
>>
>>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Votes & Stuff

[Josh T]

Yeah, that's the one. CB: you get yourself a freebie since someone else dug
it up for you.

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 20:12, VJ Rada  wrote:

> I cause 天火狐 using eir latest agency which I believe is 狐票店 but I make
> no promises, to vote in the ADoP and PM elections in this way ""I
> endorse the entity who has, between the period of the posting of this
> message and the tallying of the vote, transferred strictly the most
> value in Assets (assessed at the most recent market valuation of the
> Asset in Shinies available during vote tallying) to 天火狐; in the event
> of a tie or otherwise an inability to clearly determine such an
> entity, my vote is PRESENT.
>
> I transfer 天火狐; 1 shiny (going to 7?)
>
> --
> From V.J Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

I thought I posted it somewhere, but evidently I didn't. I wrote it when
the CFJ said that I should change it to a transliteration thereof, and
provide a preferred reading.

The preferred reading/transliteration is "amatsukagitsune" and translates
to "celestial fire-fox" (with that reading---there are other meanings
possible depending on the reading since Japanese is fun that way). I
suppose "the celestial fox" is acceptable if it makes the sentence flow
better, but I would prefer to have the characters used as it appears as I
sign it; using Josh is anathema. Now that everyone knows, I expect no more
mess-ups from everyone currently subscribed, yes?

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 20:26, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> 天火狐, would you be willing to supply either a transliteration of
> the Japanese sounds to your desired spelling, or go by "The sky fox"?
> (I think that latter choice is slightly off your desired translation
> IIRC).  I'll respect it if you don't, but I'm always pausing to go
> copy and paste when referring to you.
>
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> > yeah e should be referred to as 天火狐 but it's not a memorable word.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > <p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Nicknames are common law issues. But ratified Registrar’s reports
> contradict that and if they don’t they will in the future.
> > > 
> > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:13 PM, VJ Rada <vijar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Eir agoran nickname is Josh T, as judged in a CFJ I believe.
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 10:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >> <p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >>> Then, you aren’t respecting him or his wishes.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Dude I'm not writing that japanese lol
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>> I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what
> the header says.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 天火狐
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your
> Agency and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>>> Vote purchases/sells when
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 天火狐
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with
> though, to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a
> lot, I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Loan Bank when
> > >>>>> AP brokers when
> > >>>>> Vote purchase/sells when
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

I would prefer to be addressed by what I sign my emails, not what the
header says.

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 19:54, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> @Josh we really need that corkboard.
>
> I really should get to making that. Please link me/pasta me your Agency
> and I'll add it as another business opportunity for you to it.
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:50 AM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > Vote purchases/sells when
>>
>> Have you not seen my latest Agency?
>>
>> 天火狐
>>
>> On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with
>>> though, to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>>>
>>> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot,
>>> I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>>>
>>> >Loan Bank when
>>> >AP brokers when
>>> >Vote purchase/sells when
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>>>> 
>>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and
>>>> privately
>>>> > finance eir debt.
>>>> >
>>>> > Other ideas:
>>>> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good
>>>> one,
>>>> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
>>>> >
>>>> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>>>> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>>>> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>>>> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much
>>>> more
>>>> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -Aris
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam <cuddleb...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
>>>> economy will
>>>> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
>>>> available, for
>>>> >>> example.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>> >>> <p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous
>>>> ideas. You
>>>> >>>> can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my
>>>> fork of the
>>>> >>>> ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a
>>>> photo for
>>>> >>>> comment.
>>>> >>>> 
>>>> >>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>> >>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
>>>> salary
>>>> >>>>> or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>>>> >>>>>> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>>>> >>>>>> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to
>>>> Join and
>>>> >>>>>> Leave Agora
>>>> >>>>>> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>>>> >>>>>> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>>> >>>>>> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>>>> >>>>>> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>>>> >>>>>>  consent.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>>>> >>>>>> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>>>> >>>>>> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a
>>>> player
>>>> >>>>>> +  for 30 days.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>>>> >>>>>>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>>>> >>>>>> }
>>>> >>>>>> 
>>>> >>>>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>>> >>>>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Registration Delay Fix

[Josh T]

> Vote purchases/sells when

Have you not seen my latest Agency?

天火狐

On 10 September 2017 at 19:45, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> I'd make it so that each new player has something to bargain with though,
> to start. Maybe encourage them to sell APs or Trust Tokens.
>
> Feels a bit like Mad Max and I love it. I enjoy entrepreneurship a lot,
> I'd love to see people open businesses and make business myself.
>
> >Loan Bank when
> >AP brokers when
> >Vote purchase/sells when
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is the direction that I am going with my ideas.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:12 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Time to get serious and allow Agora to float a bond issue and privately
>> > finance eir debt.
>> >
>> > Other ideas:
>> >  - V.J. Rada's idea of right-sizing to number of players is a good one,
>> >as part of the float calculations possibly.
>> >
>> >  - How about *deflation*.  Allow fractional values, I'm curious if the
>> >downward pressure on floating value will stabilize at some fraction
>> >of a shiny or exponentially decay to 0...
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> >> Woah. I was thinking maybe 25% quarterly inflation. Anything much more
>> >> than that is a tad extreme, no?
>> >>
>> >> -Aris
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Cuddle Beam 
>> wrote:
>> >>> I think we just need to print more banknotes. I don't think the
>> economy will
>> >>> destabilize much if we double or triple the amount of shinies
>> available, for
>> >>> example.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 12:23 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  I am working on an economic redesign in line with my previous ideas.
>> You
>>  can view and comment on it in the working-copy-002 branch of my fork
>> of the
>>  ruleset. Once it approaches further completion, I will post a photo
>> for
>>  comment.
>>  
>>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > On Sep 10, 2017, at 5:45 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A friendly reminder that I am voting Against this until minimum
>> salary
>> > or other basic shiny supply is passed.
>> >
>> > On Sun, 10 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> >> I submit the below proposal, “Registration Delay Fix”, AI 3: {
>> >> diff --git a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora b/rules/How to Join
>> and
>> >> Leave Agora
>> >> index 4683d3d..91e2b6c 100644
>> >> --- a/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> +++ b/rules/How to Join and Leave Agora
>> >> @@ -63,7 +63,8 @@ text: |
>> >>  consent.
>> >>
>> >>  A player CAN deregister (cease being a player) by announcement.
>> >> -  If e does so, e CANNOT register by announcement for 30 days.
>> >> +  If e does so, e CANNOT cause register emself to become a player
>> >> +  for 30 days.
>> >>
>> >>  If a player has not sent a message to a public forum in the last
>> >>  month, then any player CAN deregister em without objection.
>> >> }
>> >> 
>> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Surveyor] September Estate Auction

[Josh T]

I actually messed up in one place: "certain" begins with an s sound so
shouldn't have been included. I'm glad you enjoyed it regardless though.

天火狐

On 9 September 2017 at 11:48, Owen Jacobson <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:

>
> > On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:42 AM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Oh well, I had fun writing my blurb. It was kind of hard to not use
> common words like "the" or "of".
> >
> > 天火狐
>
> I rather liked your blurb. You picked an interesting writing challenge to
> riff on.
>
> Thank you for writing it.
>
> -o
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: [Surveyor] September Estate Auction

[Josh T]

Oh well, I had fun writing my blurb. It was kind of hard to not use common
words like "the" or "of".

天火狐

On 9 September 2017 at 03:20, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> > On Sep 2, 2017, at 12:02 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> > As Surveyor, it is my pleasure to annouce that the September estate
> auction, for the estate of Cagliostro, has begun.
>
> This auction ended at 12:02 AM, Eastern Daylight Time, on September 9th
> 2017. The following bids were placed:
>
> DatePlaced by   sh.
> ---
> 2 Sep   o 1
> 2 Sep   nichdel  11
> 2 Sep   Quazie   12
> 2 Sep   P.S.S.   13
> 2 Sep   G.   15
> 2 Sep   天火狐-2
> 2 Sep   nichdel  15
> 2 Sep   Quazie   16
> 2 Sep   CuddleBeam   50
> 7 Sep   o61
> 7 Sep   CuddleBeam   62
> 9 Sep   o67
> 9 Sep   CuddleBeam   68
>
> All bids were placed on the issuing player’s own behalf; no Organization
> bids were placed.
>
> As there is exactly one highest bid, CuddleBeam wins this auction. At any
> time until 12:02 AM, EDT, on September 16th, 2017, while Agora owns the
> estate of Cagliostro, e may pay Agora 68 Shinies to transfer that estate to
> emself, by announcement.
>
> In satisfaction of my pledge, I pay CuddleBeam 7 sh.. Eir blurb will
> appear in a future Surveyors’ report.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Josh T]

I support this movement.

天火狐

On 7 September 2017 at 11:05, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
> [...]
> > I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
> > player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
> > conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
> > great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
>
> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
> all!)
>
> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
>
> -G.
>
>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: Initiating elections.

[Josh T]

I intend to also make news sections freelance-able, to be included if
deemed worthy and author paid if used. Should I win and contracts pass, I
intend to make a contract which allows me to pay people for articles if
they wish to submit them and I choose to include them.

Please find a proto-newspaper below:

{{{

===
 News of Agora

==vol.
0===

   Elections Sweep Agora, Citizens Turn to Polls

In a recent flurry of activity where different offices are vacated and
claimed
by upstanding Agorans, elections for Prime Minister, Herald, ADoP, and
Reportor
have been initiated. Citizens head towards the polls as they cast their
ballots
and await the results with bated breath. In addition, the Agoran Decision
for
Silver Quill 2016 is also underway, taking advantage of the activity to try
and
be done. As of publication, the polls have yet to close, so one may still
cast
their votes if they wish to be heard.
 —天火狐

An Editorial Piece


Wherein the author of the piece pontificates about recent happenings in
Agora.

  —Hypothetical Author

News about Estates

Wherein I exercise my writing writing fiction about our Estates which has no
intended bearing on the game state whatsoever and is provided for
entertainment
purposes only
 —天火狐

}}}

天火狐




On 6 September 2017 at 17:38, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > For Reportor, I vote [PSS], followed by the list of people provided by
> the incumbent.
>
> I retract my recent vote for myself for Reportor, and cast a
> conditional vote:
>
> If PSS publishes a proto newspaper during the voting period, [PSS];
>
> otherwise, I vote for the list of players who publish a proto-newspaper
> during the voting period, in the order of publication [ie. earliest
> publisher first on list].
>
>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Monsters

[Josh T]

I kind of like this idea, and goodness knows that I am perfectly willing to
deal with long-term mechanics and planning. *looks at 蘭亭社*

天火狐

On 5 September 2017 at 10:11, Nic Evans  wrote:

> Right now, under my reading, Monsters don't do anything when created? In
> my experience stub mechanics wither before being expanded upon. I'd
> suggest making a more clear usage of Monsters. Additionally your
> proposal should specify AI and Power for the enacted rule.
>
>
> On 09/04/17 23:16, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > I create the following proposal and pend it with 1 Action Point:
> >
> > - Title: Monsters
> >
> > - Content: Create a rule that titled "Monsters" and with the following
> > content:
> >
> > "Monsters are entities that exist within Estates and are tracked by
> > the Surveyor. Monsters have a name which is a string of text and an
> > amount of Power, which is equal to the amount of characters their name
> > string has. (eg, an "Imp" has a Power of 3, and a "Pit Demon" has a
> > power of 9).
> >
> > Players CAN, by announcement, cause themselves to lose a positive
> > integer amount of Stamps and create a Monster at an Estate of their
> > choice with Power equal to, at most, the square of the Stamps they
> > chose to lose."
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Draft: Contracts

[Josh T]

Aw, I won't be able to keep / recreate 蘭亭社 under the new proposal. I'll
have to rethink how to test the things that should go with it should this
pass.

I would like to propose adding making CFJs as protected. I think the reason
thereof should be evident if one were party to a theoretical contract which
forbade making CFJs.

Otherwise, I think what needs to be said has been done. Well done.

天火狐

On 5 September 2017 at 11:22, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> I read this last night, slept on it, skimmed it again, and read the
> replies. Here’s my initial thoughts, thin as they are - I had more, but
> Gaelan and ais523 have already covered most of my inquiries.
>
> On Sep 4, 2017, at 11:10 PM, Aris Merchant  gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My proposal has three parts. Part 1 cleans up (tweaks and repeals)
> > existing rules. A lot of it is drawn from o's organization repeal
> > proposal, which I borrowed and then edited. Thank you, o.
>
> No problem! I’m glad you found it useful.
>
> > # 1.2.2 Change Secretary to Treasuror
>
> One thing I missed in my original Organization Repeal proposal was
> something you (Aris) did in the Assets proposal. Quoting that proposal:
>
> On Jun 9, 2017, at 3:35 PM, Aris Merchant  gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For the avoidance of doubt, all shinies existing under the old system
> continue
> > to so under the new system, and if they would not otherwise do so, new
> shinies
> > are created to replace them.
>
> Some similar mechanism to make it clear that the Secretary becomes the
> Treasuror, rather than that the Secretary’s office ceases to be defined by
> the rules and a new office comes to be defined, would be nice. It’s not
> strictly necessary but it might influence when elections for the office can
> be called.
>
> Carrying on…
>
> On Sep 4, 2017, at 11:10 PM, Aris Merchant  gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Amend rule 2489 ("Estates") by replacing the first sentence with:
> >
> >  {{{
> >  An Estate is a type of indestructible liquid asset.
> >  }}}
>
> Did you intend to allow persons who are not players to own Estates?
>
> > Amend rule 2483 ("Economics") by replacing its text, entirely, with:
> >
> >  {{{
> >  Shinies (singular "shiny", abbreviated "sh.") are an
> >  indestructible liquid currency, and the official currency
> >  of Agora. The Treasuror is the recordkeepor for shinies.
> >
> >  The Treasuror CAN cause Agora to pay any player or
> >  contract by announcement if doing so is specified by a
> >  rule.
> >  }}}
>
> Did you intend to allow persons who are not players to own Shinies?
>
> > Repeal Rule 2485 ("You can't take it with you”).
>
> Given that this rule is completely broken - its text never applies to any
> situation which can be reached by gameplay - I’m tempted to repeal it in a
> freestanding proposal just to get it gone. Objections?
>
> > Make  Notary. [Any volunteers? Maybe our current Secretary or
> > Superintendent?]
>
> I’m happy to take the office. This is an interesting-enough idea that I’d
> hate to see it wither for lack of recordkeeping.
>
> > # 3.0 Asset Changes
> >
> > Amend Rule 2166, "Assets", by changing it to read in full:
> >
> >  An asset is an entity defined as such by a rule, authorized regulation,
> >  group of rules/regulations, or contract (hereafter its backing
> >  document), and existing solely because its backing document defines its
> >  existence.
> >
> >  Each asset has exactly one owner.  If an asset would otherwise
> >  lack an owner, it is owned by Agora.  If an asset's backing document
> restricts
> >  its ownership to a class of entities, then that asset CANNOT be gained
> by or
> >  transferred to an entity outside that class, and is destroyed if it is
> owned
> >  by an entity outside that class (except if it is owned by Agora, in
> which case
> >  any player CAN transfer or destroy it without objection). The
> restrictions in
> >  the previous sentence are subject to modification by its backing
> document.
> >
> >  Unless modified by an asset's backing document, ownership of an asset is
> >  restricted to Agora, players, and contracts.
>
> Flipping my previous two questions about ownership around, did you intend
> to forbid non-player persons from ever owning assets?
>
> -o
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Deregister

[Josh T]

I feel that I would rather get a Yellow Card than get Shiny fines since I
currently lack a consistent way to earn Shiny. But I support the idea to
get something going well, and sideline everything else until it needs to
get addressed. I have a few ideas bouncing around, and maybe I should get
around to writing my first proposal.

天火狐

On 24 August 2017 at 21:20, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> > Likewise, the fix for SHALLs is probably to make them only apply to
> > officers, and have a neat list of all the relevant SHALLs in the rule
> > defining the office. They serve an important role in preventing the
> > game breaking, but they're the kind of thing that can easily trip up a
> > new player if they apply to everyone.
>
> And also, the only really effective use of Cards currently IMO is if
> someone needs to be removed from office.
>
> I think Card punishments short of this extreme should be turned into
> Shiny fines.
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Remarks and a few actions

[Josh T]

At the moment I am planning to give my organization the ability to hold
stamps, then give it to them because reasons.

As for the other non-stamp related things, I agree that those are things I
could do, but since since joining the game I have done none of them, I
don't plan on changing that when I can't devote a reasonable amount of time
to things.

天火狐

On 23 August 2017 at 19:50, Owen Jacobson <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:

>
> > On Aug 23, 2017, at 3:42 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm kind of reluctant to spend my Shinies since I don't actually do the
> things which award Shinies. Maybe when I'm not super busy with moving and
> such I should deputize for Reporter and publish newspapers, but that
> doesn't solve the problem that I don't earn Shinies, so I can't replace
> them if I spend them.
>
> You _can_, but it’s certainly not easy. I’m hoping babelian’s Agoraculture
> proposal passes and adds another way to turn a profit, even if that
> mechanism is zero-sum as well.
>
> Right now, you can turn a profit by
>
> * Having someone pay you for a thing. I’m tempted to buy your stamp off of
> you, if you care to name a price, just as an example.
> * Relatedly, creating stamps at low cost and destroying them at high cost.
> * Authoring _and_ pending proposals with shinies, which then pass. The
> profit margin on this is fixed by rule, and is currently an underwhelming 1
> sh. per proposal, but it’s still profitable.
> * Judging CFJs called with shinies.
> * Scams, probably
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Election Initiation for the Office of Prime Minister

[Josh T]

@K You may want to "TTttPF" (This Time to the Proper Forum) your post as is
usual when making such an error.

天火狐

On 23 August 2017 at 16:14, Quazie  wrote:

> No you don't - This is a message to the discussion forum, and thus is just
> a statement, not an action.
>
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 7:29 AM Kyle Anderson 
> wrote:
>
>> I vote for myself.
>>
>>
>>
>> -K
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Aris Merchant 
>> *Sent: *Tuesday, August 22, 2017 11:55 PM
>> *To: *agora-busin...@agoranomic.org
>> *Subject: *Re: BUS: Election Initiation for the Office of Prime Minister
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 10:45 PM, Kyle Anderson 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I initiate an election for the office of Prime Minister, as no election
>> for
>>
>> > this office has occurred within the last 90 days. I initiate an Agoran
>>
>> > decision to determine the new Prime Minister. For this decision, the
>> vote
>>
>> > collector is the ADoP, the quorum is 2.0, and the valid options are the
>>
>> > players (PRESENT is also a valid vote).
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> I vote for K, followed by every other player who publicly announces
>>
>> their candidacy, in the order they do so, followed by the incumbent.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Not dead

[Josh T]

Here is a proposed word list:

* Antegrian
* Borduria
* Catharsis
* Deteriorate
* Exemplify
* Fastidious
* Garner
* Heron
* Incorrigible
* Jambalaya

天火狐

On 16 August 2017 at 20:00, Owen Jacobson <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:

>
> > On Aug 16, 2017, at 7:55 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Can I come up with a wordlist to card you for tardiness?
>
> I pledge that, if I give myself a Yellow Card within the next 72 hours,
> and if Josh T publishes a proposed word list before I do so, I will use
> Josh T’s word list as the required word list for the apology condition on
> the Yellow Card, exactly once.
>
> -o
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Not dead

[Josh T]

Can I come up with a wordlist to card you for tardiness?

天火狐

On 16 August 2017 at 19:48, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> For each of the following, I point the finger at myself:
>
> * Failing to publish the Secretary’s monthly report for August 2017 in a
> timely fashion.
> * Failing to publish the Secretary’s weekly report in a timely fashion.
> * Failing to publish the Surveyor's weekly report in a timely fashion.
> * Failing to publish the Referee's weekly report in a timely fashion.
> * Failing to resolve the August estate auction in a timely fashion.
>
> I further waggle my finger reprimandingly at myself for:
>
> * Not vacating offices or arranging cover before disappearing for an
> extended period.
>
> I’m back. I’m catching up. Thanks for your patience - I’m mildly surprised
> nobody deputised for me to handle my offices, but I’m grateful for that, as
> well, as I do enjoy those responsibilities.
>
> -o
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: [Registrar] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

CoE: Bayushi is a player (e owns Shinies)

天火狐

On 23 July 2017 at 16:10, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Accepted.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Jul 23, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> >
> > CoE: I, nichdel, am a player.
> >
> > On 07/23/2017 01:31 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >> 
> 
> >>Registrar's Weekly Report
> >> 
> 
> >>
> >> (all times UTC)
> >>
> >> Date of last report: 02 Jul 2017
> >> Date of this report:
> >>
> >> Recent events:
> >>
> >>
> >> Players (16) (Rule 869, self-ratifying)
> >>
> >> Player   Contact
>  Registered
> >> --   ---
>  --
> >> ais523   callforjudgement at yahoo.co.uk [1] 20
> Mar 11
> >> Aris thoughtsoflifeandlight17 at gmail.com   13
> Sep 16
> >> Murphy   emurphy42 at zoho.com   27
> Oct 07
> >> oowen at grimoire.ca 12
> Jul 16
> >> Sprocklemsprocklem at gmail.com  19
> Oct 13
> >> 天火狐draconicdarkness at gmail.com   06 Nov
> 16
> >> Zachary Watterson [2]tannerswett at gmail.com26
> Mar 17
> >> Quazie   quazienomic at gmail.com15
> Apr 17
> >> P. Scholasticus [3]  pscriboniusscholasticus at gmail.com[4] 16
> Apr 17
> >> tmanthe2nd   trstnbrdwg0 at gmail.com13
> May 17
> >> Gaelan   gbs at canishe.com  15
> May 17
> >> Ienpw IIIjames.m.beirne at gmail.com 21
> May 17
> >> Veggiekeks   martinjroensch at gmail.com 25
> May 17
> >> omd  comexk at gmail.com [5] 03
> Feb 11
> >> V.J. Radavijar...@gmail.com  07
> Jun 17
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] also ais523 at alumni.bham.ac.uk
> >> [2] also known as Gumball
> >> [3] In full, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> [4] officially, but technically equivalent p.scribonius.scholasticus at
> googlemail.com
> >> [5] officially, but technically equivalent c.ome.xk at gmail.com
> >>
> >> Fora (Rule 478, self-ratifying)
> >>
> >> Type Location  Typical use
> >>   ---
> >> Public   agora-official at agoranomic.org  official reports
> >> Public   agora-business at agoranomic.org  other business
> >> Discussion   agora-discussion at agoranomic.orgdiscussion
> >> Discussion   irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/##nomic   discussion
> >> Public   agora at listserver.tue.nlbackup
> >>
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe from main lists:
> >> http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo
> >>
> >> Subscribe or unsubscribe from tue.nl backup list:
> >> http://listserver.tue.nl/mailman/listinfo/agora
> >>
> >> The IRC channel does not require subscription; set your IRC client
> to
> >> server irc.freenode.net, port 6667, channel ##nomic, and whatever
> >> nickname you like.
> >>
> >> Other rules pertaining to this office
> >> -
> >> Rule 2139 (The Registrar)
> >> Rule 1789 (Cantus Cygneus)
> >>
> >> Watchers (4)
> >>
> >> The list of Watchers is not governed by the rules, but is
> >> traditionally maintained in the Registrar's Report.  If you'd like
> to
> >> be listed as a Watcher or removed from the list, feel free to email
> >> the fora or the Registrar directly.
> >>
> >> Watchers confirmed as of May 2017:
> >>
> >> Nickname  Contact
> >>   ---
> >> Ørjan oerjan at nvg.ntnu.no
> >>
> >> Watchers confirmed as of May 2013:
> >>
> >> Nickname  Contact
> >>   ---
> >> Dave  davidnicol at gmail.com
> >> Phlogistique  noe.rubinstein at gmail.com
> >> Steve zardoz37 at gmail.com
> >>
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: public private contracts

[Josh T]

Re: Japanese pledge: Given that I don't recall having made a pledge in
Japanese, I haven't the foggiest what it might refer to.

Re: Japanese Organization: Yeah, no, that's what I expected of it. I have a
long philosophical experiment, I swear.

天火狐

On 20 July 2017 at 23:58, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> On Jul 20, 2017, at 2:25 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
> > o, you seem to have accepted that a pledge in Japanese, of very limited
> > comprehension to me, and with limited enforceability due to translation
> issues
> > (even with the translator) is still some kind of publicly-made pledge.
> Why does
> > this case differ to you?
>
> Can you point out where I did so? I’m having difficulty finding it. It
> does sound like a thing I’d do, but I had not fully understood the
> implications of CFJ 1460 until after your Cygneus Cantus, so if it was
> prior to that, I plead ignorance by default.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer gives a win to everyone and then hopes to be given one too.

[Josh T]

That seems pretty open and shut then. Appending an adjective is a mention
of that property which is no substitute of actually having that property.
(i.e. calling a car which isn't red a "red car" doesn't magically change
its colour) [consider this a gratuitous argument if it does go to a CFJ]

天火狐

On Jul 20, 2017 16:43, "grok (caleb vines)" <grokag...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 3:41 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I'm on vacation and only have mobile internet at the moment so I can't
> > check, but does the rule specify that the trust tokens needed to win are
> to
> > be issued by other players explicitly or that players can issue trust
> tokens
> > and one needs such tokens from multiple players? In the event of the
> latter
> > case it might be worth looking into because I think there is real
> ambiguity
> > with how it interacts with Agencies and this is a good excuse to look
> into
> > it.
> >
> > 天火狐
>
>
> The last paragraph of the rule, for your reading pleasure:
>
> "A person can win the game by announcement if e has been issued a
> Trust Token by each player except emself; if no person has won via
> this mechanism in the past; and if in the same message, e quotes, for
> each of those players, a public message in which that player issued em
> a Trust Token."
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: public private contracts

[Josh T]

I'd just like to mention I haven't actually succeeded in making a
non-registration action in Japanese, and I think all my attempts at voting
in such were thrown out, which I believe is the correct way to interpret
the rules. (While there are technical and cryptographic differences, using
another language is basically a form of encryption if not everyone can read
it IMO.)

天火狐

On Jul 20, 2017 15:40, "Cuddle Beam"  wrote:

> >First, you've *nearly* found ONE INTERNAL SCAM
>
> humble agoran bloodhoun...-puppy at your service.
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
>> > I disagree with that Public is explicitly defined. "Public message",
>> yes. "Public X" in general?
>> > I don't believe so. "Public challenge" isn't explicitly defined to need
>> to be a public message,
>> > just a challenge which is "Public" (which, via your trick, if it works,
>> could be encrypted).
>> > So "Public" itself isn't defined in general.
>>
>> First, you've *nearly* found ONE INTERNAL SCAM I was hoping to try, but
>> didn't get around to.
>> So I'll give it to you.  If you look at the possible *responses* to a
>> Claim of Error, "publish
>> a revision" and "Initiating an inquiry case"[*] are explicitly public,
>> but DENY a CLAIM is
>> *not* explicitly  public.  (and since the other elements on the list are
>> *explicitly* public,
>> the implication is that Denial doesn't need to be public).
>>
>> When I published the fake Report the other week, I'd intended to
>> privately Deny the claim,
>> putting it secretly back on the self-ratification clock.
>>
>>
>> Anyway,on the "public challenge" side:
>>
>> The full phrase is "public challenge via one of the following methods".
>> So the methods define
>> what the challenge is.  So a public challenge is something that is
>> "identifying a document"
>> (likely needs to identify the document publicly) and uses (1) an inquiry
>> case (CFJ) which has
>> it's own defined process that starts "by announcement" in R991[*], or (2)
>> a CoE.  BUT... I
>> notice you're right, there's nothing that explicitly says a CoE must be
>> public.
>>
>> Though if you CFJd on CoEs, my guess is the Judge would say something
>> like "a challenge is one
>> of the following two things, so a public challenge is one of those
>> things, done publicly."
>> But sure, try saying:  "I CoE on on the error specified in this hash..."
>> Or maybe wait for
>> some discussion on this point first, in case I missed something.
>>
>> Of course, it's a trivial result, as the document-keeper could just say
>> "nope, I don't find
>> that hash-hidden error, because I don't know what it is, so I'm going to
>> deny it".
>>
>>
>> [*] "Inquiry Case" used to be the term for a CFJ.  This is archaic
>> language.  R991 talks
>> about a "Case... specifying a matter to be inquired into" as the
>> definition of a CFJ, which
>> is close enough.  Whether by precedent or merely custom, I don't remember.
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer gives a win to everyone and then hopes to be given one too.

[Josh T]

I'm on vacation and only have mobile internet at the moment so I can't
check, but does the rule specify that the trust tokens needed to win are to
be issued by other players explicitly or that players can issue trust
tokens and one needs such tokens from multiple players? In the event of the
latter case it might be worth looking into because I think there is real
ambiguity with how it interacts with Agencies and this is a good excuse to
look into it.

天火狐

On Jul 20, 2017 13:38, "Cuddle Beam"  wrote:

> Sure, all yours.
>
> And Ais523: We have serious CFJs about... a joke. Sending a nickle. I
> don't know what's the standard for CFJs right now, but people seem to be
> grasping at straws at what could be turned to become interesting. I'm
> alright with sending my CFJ at a period of relative lull like this (which I
> believe will be solved soon once the economy proposal gets settled).
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 3:36 PM, grok (caleb vines) 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 8:33 AM, Alex Smith 
>> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 2017-07-20 at 15:24 +0200, Cuddle Beam wrote:
>> >> I'd prefer to spend a CFJ slot be spent but it's not an urgent CFJ at
>> all.
>> >> I'm be up for retracting it if you pledge that you'll resubmit it when
>> the
>> >> CFJ queue is empty enough (and if the economy eventually makes CFJs
>> have a
>> >> price, I'll refund you).
>> >
>> > Why would I do something like that? I was hoping to avoid a CFJ
>> > altogether in order to avoid a judge having to waste eir time on
>> > explaining yet a gain why such a ridiculously implausible scam doesn't
>> > work. Delaying it wouldn't really help at all; there isn't a judge
>> > shortage, just a shortage of tolerance for that sort of nonsense.
>> >
>> > However, if you won't take it from me, I can find an uninvolved judge
>> > who will, I'm pretty sure, just reiterate the point that everyone else
>> > has been making. I was just hoping to avoid the effort for everyone
>> > (and the permanent embarrassment it'll create in the CFJ records).
>> >
>> > --
>> > ais523
>>
>> I'd be happy to knock it out today, assuming Cuddlebeam doesn't bar me
>> as soon as e sees this message.
>>
>>
>> -grok
>>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Josh T]

Well. I suppose a nickel's worth of Shiny rounds to zero at that exchange
rate.

天火狐

On 18 July 2017 at 06:15, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> Bam. Paid.
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> (I don't think I should reveal any more, given that there's quite a bit of
> private data here, but this should do. 20 bucks sent.)
>
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> I pay Cuddlebeam 1 Shiny. (Cuddlebeam: contact me off-list if your pledge
>> follows the most obvious interpretation. This isn’t the email associated
>> with my Paypal account.)
>>
>> -o
>>
>> On Jul 18, 2017, at 2:15 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>
>> I present the following as gratuitous argument to that CFJ (which is also
>> a pledge):
>>
>> - I pledge to pay 20 USD (to be transferred by Paypal) for a shiny.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:03 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>>>
>>> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>>>
>>> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5
>>> shinies.”
>>>
>>> -o
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Josh T]

I'm pretty sure the "without warning" part can be easily fixed.

天火狐

On 17 July 2017 at 23:12, Owen Jacobson <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:

> I am extremely tempted to offer you a shiny for it, but I think my partner
> might be a bit miffed if bread showed up in the post without warning.
>
> -o
>
> On Jul 17, 2017, at 11:10 PM, grok (caleb vines) <grokag...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The theoretical answer is probably a function of known values, like the
> price of an estate.
>
> For a practical answer, I have an extra loaf in my pantry I'd be willing
> to mail out...
>
>
> -grok
>
> On Jul 17, 2017 9:55 PM, "Owen Jacobson" <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:
>
> Indeed. What’s the price of bread?
>
> -o
>
> On Jul 17, 2017, at 10:54 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think 10
> cents a month is a lot.
>
> 天火狐
>
> On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie <quazieno...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10
>> cents a month - which to me is bonkers.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson <o...@grimoire.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie <quazieno...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>>>
>>> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5
>>> shinies.”
>>>
>>> -o
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Payment

[Josh T]

I mean if I can buy the entire estate of Antegria for 50 cents, I think 10
cents a month is a lot.

天火狐

On 17 July 2017 at 22:50, Quazie  wrote:

> If this CFJ is true then all officers work for a very low rate of ~10
> cents a month - which to me is bonkers.
>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 19:03 Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Jul 16, 2017, at 6:58 PM, Quazie  wrote:
>>
>> > I pay nichdel a nickel's worth of shinies for taking over as Assessor.
>>
>> I CFJ on the statement “A nickle’s worth of shinies is exactly 5 shinies.”
>>
>> -o
>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: CFJ judgement

[Josh T]

I kind of prefer
fact x = foldl (*) 1 [1..x]
myself.

天火狐

On 16 July 2017 at 11:16, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Jul 2017, V.J Rada wrote:
>
> fun fact: i'm dumb
>>
>
> fun fact 0 = 1 | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer attempts a stick-up.

[Josh T]

I like coming up with interesting wordlists. They're fun to compile and
evidently the result is reasonably well-received, although I think o is the
only person whose been on the receiving end of my lists.

天火狐

On 14 July 2017 at 00:58, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Jul 9, 2017, at 9:53 PM, Aris Merchant  gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I point my finger at CuddleBeam for violation of Rule 2471. I argue
> > that air actions were so implausible that e could not reasonably have
> > believed them, and that at the very least e is absurdly negligent.
> > Given that this is having a huge impact on the players and the game
> > (look at the deregistrations), I recommend a sentence of a Red Card.
>
>
> I find this finger-pointing to be Shenanigans, based on the testimony of
> the accused:
>
> > I wouldn't have written that wall of text if I didn't believe it had at
> least a slither of chance of working.
>
>
> Quite a number of scams in Agora’s past have relied on creative
> interpretations of the rules, and while I personally believe there’s no way
> this scam could work, I believe carding Cuddlebeam would unjustifiably
> punish em for a bona fide attempt.
>
> Had I found otherwise, I would have issued a Yellow Card, not a Red Card.
> In spite of the colour theme of the Cards, I find that a Yellow Card is
> considerably more severe than a Red Card, especially if paired with a
> challenging word list. It’s also easier to justify a Yellow Card in the
> face of the accusations against Cuddlebeam in this finger-pointing. (This
> is, perhaps, not working as intended.)
>
> Instead, I’ll reinforce ais523’s advice to find a co-conspirator for
> future scams, and 天火狐’s observation that such tactics have very much worn
> out their welcome.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer attempts a stick-up.

[Josh T]

While I haven't been paying attention to your scams of late due to real
life drama and bad timing (family issues; I'm flying to go be with them for
a month starting Thursday), I feel that your welcome with such tactics has
worn thin.

天火狐

On 10 July 2017 at 12:17, Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> Yes, they are definitely contradictory at times. I've mentioned before
> that I don't have any objective measure to decide what interpretation is
> best, so I just use one which does the most interesting thing for me in
> hopes that a enough audience agrees with it or a CFJ about it is judged in
> my favor, because I don't know which among the myriad of perfectly
> reasonable interpretations I will be judged by.
>
> If you, nichdel and PSS, had opposite (and contradictory) interpretations
> on something, I would believe that both are equally valid. Now, I have many
> interpretations just like those in mind at any given time (and many
> contradictory), and I have no tiebreaker. And even then, my own opinion
> about what interpretation is best matters very little when it comes to
> resolving my own actions, because in the end, its the audience who is my
> judge - it's all of you who have the final word.
>
> And you all don't unanimously agree with each other. So of course that the
> interpretations I use won't agree with each other either.
>
> So I just shrug and use the ones that are more convenient for me in hopes
> that the audience would agree to it (whether I personally agree to it or
> not matters little, just my judgement of whether others might be convinced
> of it or not. Which in this case was woefully inaccurate, most likely due
> to that I just winged it).
>
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> They also seem to contradict each other at times.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 09:55 Nicholas Evans  wrote:
>>
>>> The argument 'I wouldn't do all that work in order to fake' is
>>> fallacious. Of course you would if you thought you could get away with it.
>>>
>>> I think you constantly violate no faking by purposely misconstruing the
>>> rules to have meanings favorable to you, even when those meanings are
>>> nonesense. Then you plead ignorance when someone calls it out, or you stop
>>> responding and move onto the next bad faith attempt.
>>>
>>> I'd accept one or two peculiar interpretations from a single player as
>>> good faith, but you've purported many unlikely beliefs, and somehow they
>>> all favor your goals.
>>>
>>> Cut the bullshit out.
>>>
>>> On Jul 10, 2017 03:43, "Cuddle Beam"  wrote:
>>>
 ...I totally understand why it could be be appropriate to card me for
 trying the stick-up, but @grok, I don't understand the card part of if I
 *fail* to deputize for Surveyor just yet. If the argument is that using a
 loophole to try to get the office is "bad", shouldn't I be carded
 *regardless* of if I fail or succeed? How does succeeding to get the office
 somehow spare me of getting a card? (Either way, I'll accept the carding,
 but I just want to understand that part better)

 All that aside, well, yeah. I accept all charges (except for the no
 faking part, I wouldn't have written that wall of text if I didn't believe
 it had at least a slither of chance of working. Or, on the flip side, I
 wouldn't have written a huge wall of text with the aim to get a card when
 just writing something way shorter is way easier. I totally get that it
 feels heinous to try to pull off a stick-up like this though, but then
 again, if it worked, it could all just pass quickly if people simply vote
 FOR lol. But yeah, pretty evil.)

 On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 4:09 AM, grok (caleb vines) <
 grokag...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 8:53 PM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
> > I point my finger at CuddleBeam for violation of Rule 2471. I argue
> > that air actions were so implausible that e could not reasonably have
> > believed them, and that at the very least e is absurdly negligent.
> > Given that this is having a huge impact on the players and the game
> > (look at the deregistrations), I recommend a sentence of a Red Card.
> >
> > -Aris
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> >> I would support, with a fair implementation.
> >>
> >> I point my finger at CB for failure to treat Agora Right Good
> Forever.
> >>
> >> I previously deregistered because I thought my explosive response
> to CB
> >> was my own issue, that e needed time to adjust, and I needed time to
> >> cool off. But I'm now convinced that's not the case. Everything CB
> does
> >> disrespects the time, effort, and feelings of every other player.
> >>
> >> I challenge people who 

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Arbitor] Appeal of CFJ 3534; go vote!

[Josh T]

>  And finally, I learned about the difference between traditional
(tategaki)
and modern (yokogaki) ordering in Japanese today!  I'd always wondered
why
I was confused about that (looking at Japanese text from different
sources)
but never got around to looking it up.  So thanks for that :).

Your Arabic thing also solves my problem of trying to write a piece of text
in Japanese that makes sense when read in both directions the language can
be read.

天火狐

On 2 July 2017 at 15:12, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 2 Jul 2017, omd wrote:
> > First of all, I'd like to note that Gmail displays the message
> > differently from ais523's images.  I see
> > {
> > [arabic text] : I call for judgement on the following statement
> > }
>
> Some evidence, and some commentary:
>
> First the gratuitous evidence for the record:
>
> I composed the message in a fixed-width font.  It appears for me, both in
> composition and in the message as received from the lists, the way it
> appears
> in the archives (using a reasonably-wide window), a single line with
>   [Latin] : [Arabic]
>
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/
> agora-business/2017-June/035191.html
>
> As "evidence", a note on my intent:  I had intended it to be
> center-justified,
> with the center as close to the colon as possible.  I thought about
> indenting it slightly on the left side to show that the intent to center
> it,
> but since the line was already beyond 80 characters, I wanted to minimize
> the
> chance across others' displays that it would wrap, so I didn't add the
> extra
> space. My editor and reader don't wrap until >120.
>
>
> Now some commentary (not official gratuitous arguments):
>
>   - We have a tradition of fixed-width displays, to the extent that we make
> our reports and other legal documents (tables) that way.  If tables
> don't
> display correctly, we tend to say "switch to a fixed width browser"
> not "we
> have to go by the quirks of individuals' mail clients".
>
>   - Not sure we've had a set standard on line length (differs by report),
> out
> of politeness definitely under 80.  That's the acknowledged weakness
> of my
> single line.
>
>   - Still, within the Rules we respect the authors' intent with ASCII art
> (and
> would frown at a rulekeepor who squeezed out the linespace in the Town
> Fountain as "inconsequential").  Of course, we've never used such
> positioning to make a legal distinction.
>
>   - In questions where it matters, it might be great to use this case to
> set
> a precedent.  The one I would suggest is "the way it displays in the
> archives is the canonical form" (without getting into whether the
> Distributor could mess with that one day :) ).
>
>   - And yes, I also acknowledge that narrowing the window when looking at
> the
> archives causes a line wrap - but the same is true for report tables.
> It's not an unreasonable hardship (IMO) to say "in doubt, view it in
> the
> archives with a window width sufficient to respect the author's fairly
> clear intent."
>
> That's all commentary on display, bytes, etc.  Now, assuming others are
> willing to judge it linguistically, as displayed on the archives with a
> sufficient window width (~90 characters are more):
>
>   - A main point for me is interpretation of the word "following".  I
> believe
> that a native Arabic-speaker would read "following" in the Arabic
> sentence as the thing past the colon (the Latin text), but I don't have
> a native-speaker on hand to ask.
>
>   - I think that CFJ 1267 and its two(!) appeals are the best discussion of
> using fixed-width "ASCII" art uncertainty to look at timing of actions.
> Definitely worth a look, including the controversy caused shown in the
> appeals:  https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/?1267
>
>   - Finally, since I kind of amped-up the emotion on this one, let me say I
> wouldn't be insulted if the whole thing was thrown out as ambiguous, or
> any particular interpretation (even favoring the Latin over the
> Arabic),
> as long as it's done on linguistic grounds and hopefully in a way that
> can apply to other/all languages similarly, or cover the mixing of
> multiple languages.
>
>   - And finally, I learned about the difference between traditional
> (tategaki)
> and modern (yokogaki) ordering in Japanese today!  I'd always wondered
> why
> I was confused about that (looking at Japanese text from different
> sources)
> but never got around to looking it up.  So thanks for that :).
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Complete Shiny Economy Overhaul

[Josh T]

I just wanted to mention that I have an alternate stamp proposal which I
haven't quite had the time to flesh out, but it should be reasonably easy
to change to if I write things carefully.

天火狐

On 30 June 2017 at 09:45, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> If you increase AP to 5 per week, I will pend it.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 2017, at 6:46 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> >
> > Oops, I forgot to change everyone's balance.
> >
> > Also if there's no substantial problems noticed, I'd really appreciate
> > having this pended before the next proposal pool (I don't have any
> > shinies).
> >
> > I withdraw Economics Overhaul.
> >
> > I submit the following proposal:
> >
> > -
> >
> > Title: Economics Overhaul v2
> > AI: 2.0
> > Author: nichdel
> > Co-authors: o, grok, Aris
> >
> > Repeal R2484 "Payday".
> >
> > Amend the rule titled "Assets" by, after the paragraph that starts with
> > "An asset generally CAN be transferred", adding:
> >
> >   When a rule indicates transfering an amount that is not a natural
> >   number, the specified amount is rounded up to the nearest natural
> >   number.
> >
> > And by, after the paragraph that starts "The "x balance of an entity"",
> > adding:
> >
> >   When a player causes one or more balances to change, e is ENCOURAGED
> >   to specify the resulting balance(s). Players SHOULD NOT specify
> >   inaccurate balances.
> >
> > {Just intended to make balance tracking easier inbetween Secretary
> > reports}
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Rewards" with the following text:
> >
> >   A Reward is a specified amount of shinies associated with a Reward
> >   Condition. For each time a player meets a Reward Condition, e MAY
> >   claim the specified award exactly once within 24 hours of meeting the
> >   Reward Condition.
> >
> >   When a player 'claims' a Reward, Agora transfers the specified number
> >   of shinies to the player.
> >
> >   Below is an exhaustive list of Reward Conditions and eir rewards:
> >
> >  * The following two only apply to proposals that were pended via
> >  spending shinies:
> >
> > - Being the author of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> > Floating Value.
> >
> > - Being the pender of an adopted proposal: 1/40th the current
> > Floating Value.
> >
> >  * Judging a CFJ, that was created via spending shinies, that e was
> >  assigned to: 1/20th the current Floating Value.
> >
> >  * Publishing a duty-fulfilling report: 5 shinies.
> >
> >  * Resolving an Agoran Decision for the first time this week: 5
> >  shinies.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Floating Value" with the following text:
> >
> >   Floating Value is a natural switch. When e publishes eir Weekly
> >   Report, the Secretary SHALL flip the Floating Value to Agora's shiny
> >   balance.
> >
> > Set every players's shiny balance to 0.
> >
> > Set Agora's shiny balance to 1000.
> >
> > Set the Floating Value to 200.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Economic Wins" with the following text:
> >
> >   Stamps are an asset, identified by eir creator and tracked by the
> >   Secretary.
> >
> >   The Stamp Value is always 1/5th the current Floating Value.
> >
> >   Once per month, a player MAY, by announcement, transfer to Agora the
> >   Stamp Value, in shinies, to create a Stamp.
> >
> >   Players MAY, by announcement, destroy a Stamp and cause Agora to
> >   transfer the Stamp Value, in shinies, to em.
> >
> >   While a player has Stamps made by at least 10 different players e MAY
> >   destroy 10 stamps made by 10 different players by announcement to win
> >   the game.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Welcome Packages" with the following text:
> >
> >   If a player has not received a Welcome Package since e most recently
> >   registered, any player MAY cause em to receive one by announcement.
> >
> >   When a player receives a Welcome Package, Agora transfers 50 shinies
> >   to em.
> >
> > Enact a Power 1 rule titled "Action Points" with the following text:
> >
> >   At the beginning of every Agoran Week, every player has 2 Action
> >   Points. When a player 'spends' an Action Point, e has one less
> >   Action Point. If a player has 0 Action Points, e may not spend any
> >   more Action Points, rules to the contrary notwithstanding.
> >
> > Amend R2445 "How to Pend a Proposal" to read, in full:
> >
> >   Imminence is a switch, tracked by the Promotor, possessed by
> >   proposals in the Proposal Pool, whose value is either "pending" or
> >   "not pending" (default).
> >
> >   Any player CAN flip a specified proposal's imminence to "pending" by
> >   announcement by:
> >
> >  a) spending 1 Action Point, OR
> >
> >  b) spending 1/20th the Floating Value in shinies.
> >
> > Amend R991 "Calls for Judgment" by replacing the first paragaraph 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it... [also contains a CFJ ID number assignment]

[Josh T]

I'm going to be honest, I am pretty surprised that you all let me get away
with most of what I've done in Japanese.

天火狐

On 29 June 2017 at 12:07, omd  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> > I register.
> >
> > H. Registrar, the following is a Cantus Cygneus:
>
> Oof :/
>
> > Fine, it's just a nickname.  Then, I argued against interpretation of
> > contracts in other languages.  Ignored.  I gave in a bit, thinking
> > "hey, maybe changing technology means this should be re-evaluated",
> > and delivered judgements allowing some minimal use of characters for
> > obvious simple actions.  This though went further for the rest of you,
> > not only do you bend over backwards to interpret long and nonsensical
> > Japanese posts, but now you try to interpret goddamn Neo Akkadian with
> > seriousness.
>
> For the record, I 'bent over backwards' to interpret the long Japanese
> post because I'm learning Japanese, therefore it was a fun exercise.
> Not because I thought any announcements in it would be legally
> effective; I don't think there's any reason to overturn CFJ 1460 (btw,
> it's unfortunate that your CFJ database is now down :/).
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it... [also contains a CFJ ID number assignment]

[Josh T]

While I am not a programmer that has needed to deal with
internationalization, it is to my understanding from friends in the field
that most implementations get it wrong, and thus how any one program
renders it should not be taken as evidence one way or another. For example,
I don't know for certain if the text viewers of each right honourable
Agoran supports the correct CJK flags that forces the font to render the
correct Unihan variant. While I am not familiar with Arabic encoding (I
don't speak Arabic, although if I tried really hard maybe I can use my
knowledge of Akkadian to decipher text?), it is my understanding that
Unicode encodes text by order of input and not "logically" as a concession
for backwards compatibility, and thus feel that stating that the text
should be interpreted as English because it is left-aligned is like having
a chef that doesn't know how to prepare lobster but tries his best anyway,
but eir customers conclude that lobster isn't good because of
unintentionally ill-suited decisions the chef made.

天火狐

On 29 June 2017 at 10:55, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Thu, 2017-06-29 at 07:09 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > But hey - this Arabic stuff??  Well, it's not some important language,
> > like say Japanese.  Let's just translate it to bytes and ignore the
> > meaning, eh?  Completely re-arrange the word order like no native
> > speaker, and not even a translation machine, would do, eh?  I guess
> > that's fine.  Basic principles of reading with good faith don't apply
> > to a language like *that*.  Let's talk about byte order, instead.
>
> Sorry for harping on about this, I'm just really annoyed myself at what
> you've written.
>
> It feels like all the effort I've gone to to do things like understand
> and work with languages like Arabic have been wasted. A lot of people
> have put in a lot of effort in order to create communication standards
> that allow text in all languages, not just English, to be understood
> unambiguously when communicated from one person to another. And now I'm
> finding out that that all that work is irrelevant, because when people
> actually write in Arabic, I'm expected to ignore what what they say
> actually means, and assume that I should take the primitive
> understanding that it's all just left-to-right, left-margin-justified
> text?
>
> Arabic has its own rules for writing it, whether on paper or on
> computer. (The very simplest is that, whether on paper or computer, you
> start at the right hand side of the page.) If you don't follow those
> rules, it shouldn't be surprising that the meaning that people ascribe
> to the message you send isn't the same as the one you intended. In
> particular, following the same rules as for English is going to produce
> a result that's meaningless in Arabic; text's going to wrap in the
> wrong places, embedded quotations in left-to-right languages will be in
> the wrong places, and so on. It can, however, sometimes produce a
> result that's meaningful in English, especially when there's English
> text in the same sentence.
>
> (To be honest, I was expecting that you'd follow up your CFJ by
> submitting the same thing as an image, which can't be reflowed or
> parsed and which is therefore missing the context you'd need to be able
> to unambiguously determine the direction it was written in. I was
> surprised by the apparent lack of understanding of encoding standards
> for writing various different languages. Perhaps this is the fault of
> computer software generally still being rather English-centric, and
> making entering text in other languages more error-prone than it should
> be; I know I've seen my email client produce incorrect or suboptimal
> results both with your Arabic, and with 天火狐's Japanese. This is
> something I'm working on at the moment – I'm trying to write a
> rendering library which handles all these languages correctly.)
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: Decoding attempt

[Josh T]

The set of languages which I speak fluently is smaller than what people
might expect, but I am willing to curl up with a grammar book of many
languages to dabble, of which I have done so with many.

天火狐

On 29 June 2017 at 10:31, V.J Rada  wrote:

> I am purely English speaking rip.
>
>
> On Friday, June 30, 2017, CuddleBeam  wrote:
>
>> >More generally for everyone, what languages do you speak?
>>
>> In order of fluidity:
>>
>> Spanish (native), English (native), Swedish (native but I haven't
>> practiced in forever so jag minnas inte mycket av det), Japanese (unhealthy
>> amounts of anime lol), German (very basic), French (very basic), Lojban (if
>> I have a dictionary with me).
>>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: 蘭亭社簿記

[Josh T]

This is outside the scope of the pledge since I only said I would answer
questions to a-b, but since you can just TTttPF it, I'll answer them
anyway.

> Are you able to provide a complete translation of this to English?

Yes, I am able to.

> Is this a deputisation? If so, for what office? If this is for the office
of Reportor, what is the newspaper relating to?

I have reason to believe that even if the message was written
conventionally this would not be a deputisation.

天火狐

On 29 June 2017 at 09:50, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Are you able to provide a complete translation of this to English?
>
> Is this a deputisation? If so, for what office?
>
> If this is for the office of Reportor, what is the newspaper relating to?
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Jun 28, 2017, at 11:39 PM, Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > In the interest of watching everyone figure out what is going on, I
> acknowledge all of those concerns, and pledge to answer questions published
> in a-b before July 5th, 2017 about my message to a-b originally published
> June 27, 2017 truthfully and to the best of my ability.
> >
> > 天火狐
> >
> > On 27 June 2017 at 15:08, Quazie <quazieno...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I object to anything in the below message I can.
> >
> > As this might be a report I issue a COE on it, specially that the report
> isn't clear.
> >
> > I also vote for myself in any agoran decision initiated by the below
> message.
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:50 Josh T <draconicdarkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There is like no good quiet time where I am free to do this, so here it
> is.
> >
> > 在職の福德公が怠慢なので、私は以下の記事を公表して、福德公の紳士を獲得されます。
> >
> > 公報時間：水無月朔日子の四つ
> > 蘭亭社のア宝や地所：なし
> > 以上
> >
> > 天火狐
> >
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it... [also contains a CFJ ID number assignment]

[Josh T]

I do apologize that it has come to this. For what it's worth, I sympathize
with your point of view and I do think that your CFJ was brilliant, even if
I didn't exactly have time to submit a gratuitous argument to support you.

天火狐
(Apparently, that Japanese character guy)

On 29 June 2017 at 10:09, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> > The word in question is a real Arabic word, translating to "I invite" /
> > "I call" / "I appeal". If we reverse the order of the letters, to get
> > «دعوأ», this is no longer a real Arabic word, strongly implying that
> > the message was meant to be in logical order; if the message were meant
> > to be in visual order, the Arabic text would therefore have been
> > written backwards (i.e. left to right, when right to left is the
> > language's normal writing order).
>
> I register.
>
> H. Registrar, the following is a Cantus Cygneus:
>
> For years, Agora has been governed by principles of interpretation,
> including a strong judgment on non-English languages.  That judgement
> was the result of me, years ago, attempting to take a simple and clear
> action in Turkish.  It was rejected wholly.  It was sensible, though
> hard line, and at times others have attempted other languages, I've
> happily referred others to that judgement, and people have accepted it
> and moved on.
>
> Recently, another player registered and began to use Japanese in the
> forum.  I was against it from the beginning, not due to dislike of a
> particular language, but due to those past Agoran customs and the fact
> that we have enough problems with ambiguities in English.  I delivered
> a judgement stating eir nickname wasn't the Japanese characters e was
> using, intending it again to reinforce that old precedent.
>
> It was completely ignored.
>
> Fine, it's just a nickname.  Then, I argued against interpretation of
> contracts in other languages.  Ignored.  I gave in a bit, thinking
> "hey, maybe changing technology means this should be re-evaluated",
> and delivered judgements allowing some minimal use of characters for
> obvious simple actions.  This though went further for the rest of you,
> not only do you bend over backwards to interpret long and nonsensical
> Japanese posts, but now you try to interpret goddamn Neo Akkadian with
> seriousness.
>
> Now, this presents many interpretation problems (of mixing languages),
> so I try to demonstrate some of the issues by mixing two languages in
> an odd way. Ambiguous as per P.S.S.'s arguments?  Maybe, and fine.
> But: ambiguous using language and the written word, say imagining it
> written on paper.  The SAME RESPECT we've given to other languages in
> the last few months.
>
> But I guess we don't extend that respect to Arabic (or in the past,
> Turkish). This result?  It decides to completely ignore the clear and
> simple known precepts of the Arabic language, and decide on some kind
> of byte order.  Why stop there??  Why not say "hey, all this English
> stuff?  It's just ASCII and we can't read numbers!"  No? I guess not.
>
> But hey - this Arabic stuff??  Well, it's not some important language,
> like say Japanese.  Let's just translate it to bytes and ignore the
> meaning, eh?  Completely re-arrange the word order like no native
> speaker, and not even a translation machine, would do, eh?  I guess
> that's fine.  Basic principles of reading with good faith don't apply
> to a language like *that*.  Let's talk about byte order, instead.
>
> Well, 46 75 63 6b 2c 20 66 75 63 6b 20 74 68 69 73 2e.
>
> I consider you folks my friends, and, intended or not, I want you to
> know how this is coming across. I know this is mainly an intellectual
> exercise for us - we like the puzzles of wrestling with translations in
> ancient languages, and figuring out odd logic (like byte stuff) to get
> out of ambiguous or paradoxical situations.  That's all fun, well, and
> good.
>
> So I've really tried to understand the Japanese, but even the signature
> characters just come across to me gibberish - due to the low resolution
> of the characters on the display, I just can't learn it from reading it
> here.  I transliterate that nickname in my head as "Japanese Character
> Guy" every time I see the characters.  It feels exclusionary to me
> (especially as there's others who understand better), and I feel left
> out.
>
> Though I've generally ignored that feeling - not a big deal.  I've even
> spent more time trying to program the CFJ database to accept those
> characters than I have on any other aspect of programming and updating.
>
> And now, here - double exclusion.  There's no similar respect for a
> language I can (to a very slight measure) cope with.
>
> Now, I'm pretty sure you didn't intend to come across this way, and
> thought of this as just another clever logic solution.  And I'm VERY
> sure my sensitivity is in a large part due to current World events. I
> come here to escape, I've never brought 

Re: DIS: Decoding attempt

[Josh T]

That's pretty good, actually. It's transliterated Neo-Akkadian for "If I
were to send meaningless messages, would it do anything?"

I have an interpretation of the rules. Instead of debating about it, I
think it is much more interesting to do things that test it and see what
Agora decides. I feel my stance on the issue as worded is quite clear given
the translation of the moon language, although I would like to see what o
comes up with.

天火狐

On 29 June 2017 at 02:47, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

> After googling a bit, here's my attempt using
> http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/search.php and
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian:
>
> Orig. transcription
> Dictionary lookup
> Suggested translation
>
> šumma  našpartamrāqtam
> szumma naszparturaqu
> If message-acc  void,meaningless-fem-acc
>
> ašpur, mimma epēšū?
> szaparumimma epeszu
> i sent/wrote,  anything  do/act?
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJ 3530 assigned to o

[Josh T]

The only thing I have to remark about this is the self-demonstrating
statement: "šumma našpartam rāqtam ašpur, mimma epēšū?"

天火狐

On 28 June 2017 at 02:54, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Tue, 2017-06-27 at 22:05 +0100, V.J Rada wrote:
> > I CFJ on the statement
> > "The Japanese message filed by 天火狐 on 27 June deputized him as the
> > Reportor"
>
> Should be "em" not "him", surely?
>
> Anyway, this is CFJ 3530. I assign it to o.
>
> The CFJ statement is probably intended to refer to this message:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg28694.html
>
> --
> ais523
> Arbitor
>

DIS: Re: BUS: 蘭亭社簿記

[Josh T]

I'd like to point out that the charter of 蘭亭社 was updated last month, which
includes additional definitions.

天火狐

On 27 June 2017 at 17:48, omd  wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 8:53 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I knew CFJ 3492 was a slippery slope.  Silly judge.
> >
> > This, though, pretty clearly fails the "sufficiently clear" test of
> > CFJs 3471-3472 (and ultimately 1460).
>
> For reference: https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/?1460
>
> FWIW, as a Japanese learner, I'm pretty sure the message is mostly
> gibberish.
>
> First line: The Google translation seems reasonable, but Japanese
> doesn't distinguish present and future so it was probably intended in
> the present.  'Fukudokko' is Google's translation of '福德公', which is
> not in the dictionary as either a word or a name (the three kanji mean
> 'luck', 'virtue', and 'public', but you can't combine arbitrary kanji
> to make a word).  Note that unlike Chinese, Japanese doesn't generally
> represent foreign words with kanji picked phonetically - it uses
> katakana for foreign words instead - so it couldn't really be that.
> The last bit combines an object marker with a passive verb (to be
> acquired/won), so it would have to be the so-called 'suffering
> passive', where the object (gentleman of 福德公) is the one hurt by the
> action being done, not necessarily its direct subject or object.  But
> then, *what* is being acquired?  Are you acquiring the gentleman who
> is also suffering from it?
>
> Second line: "Official bulletin time: " … I think the rest is an
> attempt to specify a date and maybe time, but it's way off.
> ('Mizukazuki' is really 'minazuki' and it's an archaic name for June,
> but it doesn't seem to be an archaic date either).
>
> Third line: "'A' treasure of 蘭亭社 [another non-word] and estate: none".
> 'A' is actually the katakana for the vowel sound 'a', which is not
> generally found by itself; theoretically it could be okurigana, meant
> to spell a word together with 宝 (treasure), but that would be a weird
> combination and definitely isn't in the dictionary.
>
> Fourth line: "The above"
>
> Fifth line: [his signature]
>

Re: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: pointless (has this been tried before?)

[Josh T]

I think I'm OK with supporting that interpretation.

天火狐

On 20 June 2017 at 16:09, Kerim Aydin <ke...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017, Josh T wrote:
> > I'm not convinced that saying "the unit of Balance
> > values is shiny" is sufficient to restrict them to integers: I imagine
> > few people would dispute "the meter is a unit of length" as incorrect,
> > and it makes sense to talk about fractions of a meter.
>
> On the other hand, all those previous definitions were assuming
> currencies were modeled on physical money or assets (minimum unit
> quantities representing smallest coin sizes).
>
> This time it's a completely different metaphor, and maybe - as suggested
> elsewhere - we should go to the common usage of "switch".  If you have a
> TV remote switch, it's pretty clear that the "units" of channel and
> volume are fixed on some kind of integer/discrete scale even if the
> underlying measurement units (MHz or dB) are continuous.
>
>
>
>

Re: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: pointless (has this been tried before?)

[Josh T]

On one hand, I'm kind of glad I don't have to try and explain what an
"algebraic integer" is to everyone since we can use the common-sense
ordinary-language definition of "integer" to mean "rational integer"; on
the other hand, I'm not convinced that saying "the unit of Balance values
is shiny" is sufficient to restrict them to integers: I imagine few people
would dispute "the meter is a unit of length" as incorrect, and it makes
sense to talk about fractions of a meter.

Tangent: The word "unit" in the realm of mathematics has the meaning of
"identity element", which would cause problems in the other direction
anyway.

天火狐

On 20 June 2017 at 15:20, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 20 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
> > > read: prevents us humanities majors from having to know what
> > > octonian space and lattice points are
> >
> > I agree. While for deviant cases I believe that now and then more
> > offshoot things can definitely arise, the rules themselves should
> > be as layman as possible imo (yet unambiguous and sufficiently
> > "complete" to cover gameplay).
>
> In the "old days" we actually explicitly favored mathematical and legal
> word usage over "ordinary" uses.  From Rule 754/7, circa 2007:
>(3) Any term primarily used in mathematical or legal contexts,
>and not addressed by previous provisions of this Rule, by
>default has the meaning it has in those contexts.
>
>(4) Any term not addressed by previous provisions of this Rule
>by default has its ordinary-language meaning.
>
> As a result, when my previously-mentioned judgement on CFJ 1813 was
> overturned by CFJ 1826, it relied on arcane aspects of set theory to
> find that "decreasing negatives" was nonsense rather than a net
> positive.  We later (in 2013) purposefully reversed/removed that
> mathematical and legal dominance, in favor of common language.
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: pointless (has this been tried before?)

[Josh T]

You know what, I can kind of see the argument for imaginary numbers being
reasonable. Quazie's remarks about personal balances being broken is still
a concern, and if it does actually go through it could be a little
inconvenient.

天火狐

On 19 June 2017 at 21:25, V.J Rada  wrote:

> No you don't. Imaginary numbers aren't included in any ordinary definition
> of amount.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:48 AM, CuddleBeam 
> wrote:
>
>> Hr
>>
>> I pay Agora i (imaginary unit) shinies.
>>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: pointless (has this been tried before?)

[Josh T]

Are we opening the mathematical can of worms here on Agora? Oh dear.

天火狐

On 19 June 2017 at 20:48, CuddleBeam  wrote:

> Hr
>
> I pay Agora i (imaginary unit) shinies.
>

DIS: Re: BUS: An apology

[Josh T]

I just wanted to mention that I approve of what you did with the apology
words. I hope you enjoyed writing them as much as I enjoyed coming up with
the word list.

天火狐

On 16 June 2017 at 02:37, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> SCENE: Outside a pagoda. An old man, shaken with palsy and spotted with
> age, sits on the steps feeding the pigeons. A stall is set up next to the
> steps, selling petunias.
>
> MAN: How come you here?
>
> MERCHANT, sullen: I fled.
>
> MAN: You fled? Fled from what?
>
> MERCHANT: Ask me not.
>
> MAN: Oh, come now, don't be so piquant.
>
> MERCHANT: ...I suppose. I've nothing better to do, anyways. I fled
> from a land where all the money came to a stop. How's a flowerseller
> supposed to sell flowers if nobody can pay? How's a flowerseller supposed
> to buy stock if he can't pay either?
>
> MAN: Seems fairly fundamental to the praxsis of commerce. How did such
> parsimony come to pass? How does money ... come to a stop?
>
> MERCHANT: Simple. Where I came from, all money is kept in a single
> giant ledger. A scribe is charged with keeping this ledger correct,
> recording each exchange of good for value and value for good. That scribe,
> however, fell ill - some primeval affliction of the spirit, as I heard it.
> With nobody to keep the ledger, no money could change hands. All trade
> stopped. Oh, it was awful.
>
> MAN: Seems quite the picaresque tale.
>
> MERCHANT: No need to be rude. As I said, I fled. It's behind me and
> I'd prefer not to think of it any longer. Are you going to buy anything, or
> are you content to throw perfectly good bread to the birds?
>
> MAN: I paid good coin for this bread and I'll do with it as I like.
> These birds, too, must be fed. But enough - do you smell that petrichor?
> Best to get your flowers inside before it rains. Good day.
>
> EXEUNT OMNES.
>
> This is, of course, something of an exaggeration. Not all trade stopped in
> my absence. However, the Shiny economy needs vigilant recordkeeping to
> remain functional for any length of time, and I have been derelict.
> Thankfully, we have no exiled merchants wandering in strange lands, but we
> very well could have. I apologize for my laxity.
>
> -o
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

> Which rule is authorizing the issuance of a card?

Rule 2450, where it says that breaking a pledge is a cardable offense.

I suppose "publicly-made" might be construed to mean "in a public forum",
which would prevent Donald Trump from getting a card. I can see the
argument as for why G. can't be carded as of this message, but I think G.
can be carded for breaking a pledge e made, provided that it was in a
public forum.

天火狐

On 16 June 2017 at 02:39, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 02:34 -0400, 天火狐 wrote:
> > I don't see how something like the following in the appropriate forum
> > wouldn't successfully give a card, assuming that it was issued in the
> right
> > time frame: "I issue Donald Trump a Green Card for breaking his pledge to
> > direct his secretary of the treasury to label China a currency
> manipulator."
>
> Which rule is authorizing the issuance of a card? Doing so is secured
> at power 1.7 (rule 2426), thus can't be done without a power 1.7+ rule
> authorizing it. (Additionally, doing so is regulated (rule 2125) due to
> there being specific mechanisms for it, and thus can't be done without
> a rule authorizing it; the security in rule 2426 thus serves to limit
> which rules could potentially make it possible, but it wouldn't be
> possible even without the security restriction.)
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

I don't see how something like the following in the appropriate forum
wouldn't successfully give a card, assuming that it was issued in the right
time frame: "I issue Donald Trump a Green Card for breaking his pledge to
direct his secretary of the treasury to label China a currency manipulator."

My reasoning for the above is as follows:
* It includes all the things that an announcement issuing a card must have
lest it be ineffective as per rule 2426;
* It is issued by a player;
* It clearly says in Rule 2450 that "breaking a publicly-made pledge is a
cardable offence";
* The infraction is inconsequential to Agora gameplay, and thus fits into
the category of a Green Card;
* It does not violate the other SHALL NOTs in rule 2426 (although mostly by
assumption)；
* Thus, the action would result in a card being issued.

If I am mistaken, I would like to be corrected on the issue.

天火狐

On 16 June 2017 at 02:12, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-06-16 at 02:08 -0400, 天火狐 wrote:
> > > I don’t think I can do anything about this, formally, since you’re
> still
> >
> > not a player, but if you insist I can put together a theory under which
> > this should be carded.
> >
> > CFJ 1709 states that non-players are still bound to contracts if they are
> > party to it, with the implication that non-players must still follow the
> > rules if they choose to interact with them. I'm sure you can, with that
> in
> > hand, contrive a reason to card G., especially since carding doesn't seem
> > to be restricted to players.
> >
> > 天火狐
>
> As far as I can tell, the rules allow cards to be given to nonplayers
> in a general sense, but don't provide any mechanism for doing so (other
> than by proposal); all the mechanisms intended to be used for handing
> out cards only work with players.
>
> --
> ais523
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

> I don’t think I can do anything about this, formally, since you’re still
not a player, but if you insist I can put together a theory under which
this should be carded.

CFJ 1709 states that non-players are still bound to contracts if they are
party to it, with the implication that non-players must still follow the
rules if they choose to interact with them. I'm sure you can, with that in
hand, contrive a reason to card G., especially since carding doesn't seem
to be restricted to players.

天火狐

On 15 June 2017 at 16:13, Quazie  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 10:53 AM Alex Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2017-06-15 at 16:00 +, Quazie wrote:
>> > Wow, that's broken - any public document proporting to be a report
>> > self-ratifies?
>>
>> It's not broken, it's intentional:
>>
>> a) Public documents puporting to be reports are fairly obvious, so if
>> someone makes one incorrectly or maliciously, we can just CoE it;
>> b) It means that reports continue to self-ratify even if, for some
>> reason, Agora as a whole is mistaken as to who holds the office. This
>> means that uncertainty about the identity of officers doesn't have any
>> serious long-term effects. (Without this, if we got confused as to who
>> held an office, it might mean that nothing self-ratified from that
>> point onwards due to a snowball effect of mistakes about the gamestate,
>> which could be very hard to recover from.)
>>
>> --
>> ais523
>>
>
>
> So, G. just published something that will self-ratify if we don't CoE it?
>
> It seems like I could embed public documents purporting to be a report in
> any long message in hopes of scamming to success.
>

DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Josh T]

I understand that this isn't an actual report, but in the event are going
to think it is, my balance should be 15 Shinies after updating the values
with respect to my CoE in the prior report.

天火狐

On 15 June 2017 at 10:49, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

> Secretary's Weekly Report
>
> Date of this report: Thu, 15 Jun 2017
> Date of last report: Sun, 11 Jun 2017
>
>
> Recent events (all times UTC):
>
> - previous report -
> Mon, 15 May 2017 09:27:29  Gaelan paid 1 Shinies (Quazie)
> Mon, 15 May 2017 16:28:54  Agora paid 10 Shinies (ais523)
> Thu, 18 May 2017 21:27:54  grok paid 1 Shinies (Aris)
> Sat, 20 May 2017 19:59:03  Agora paid 4 Shinies (Quazie)
> Sun, 21 May 2017 02:03:05  Agora paid 3 Shinies (ais523)
> Sun, 21 May 2017 02:05:52  Agora paid 1 Shinies (grok)
> Sun, 21 May 2017 23:11:33  Agora paid 4 Shinies (Aris)
> Mon, 22 May 2017 06:01:33  o paid 6 Shinies (Organization "AVM")
> Mon, 22 May 2017 06:01:33  Organization "AVM" paid 5 Shinies (o)
> Mon, 22 May 2017 06:20:40  o's budget switch with Organization "ACU"
>  flipped to 0
> Mon, 22 May 2017 19:10:48  天火狐 paid 0 Shinies (grok)
> Wed, 24 May 2017 00:46:28  CuddleBeam paid 5 Shinies (nichdel)
> Wed, 24 May 2017 03:23:54  Quazie paid 1 Shinies (Gaelan)
> Wed, 24 May 2017 16:47:00  Gaelan paid 0 Shinies (grok)
> Thu, 25 May 2017 00:06:37 !Gaelan paid 1 Shinies (Quazie)
> Thu, 25 May 2017 17:04:03  Organization 蘭亭社 charter amended (天火狐)
> Thu, 25 May 2017 22:21:46  Quazie paid 1 Shinies (CuddleBeam)
> - time of last report -
> Mon, 29 May 2017 16:58:50  grok deregistered
> Mon, 29 May 2017 17:00:14  nichdel deregistered
> Wed, 31 May 2017 13:41:35  aranea, Charles, Henri, Sci_Guy12, Tekneek,
>  The Warrigal, Yally deregistered
> Thu,  1 Jun 2017 00:00:00  Payday
> Fri,  2 Jun 2017 05:36:42  Agora paid 5 Shinies (Gaelan)
> Fri,  2 Jun 2017 05:38:18  Organization "AAaAA" destroyed (o)
> Mon,  5 Jun 2017 17:29:03  301 Shinies created in Agora's balance by
>  Proposal 7856
> Tue, 06 Jun 2017 20:27:07  Agora paid 30 Shinies (Quazie)
> Sat, 10 Jun 2017 08:27:45  天火狐 paid 5 Shinies (o)
> Sat, 10 Jun 2017 22:40:37  Agora paid 50 Shinies (天火狐)
> Sun, 11 Jun 2017 03:23:37  Agora paid 6 Shinies (Aris)
>
>
> Events marked with a ! are provisional pending the outcome of one or
> more CFJs.
>
>
> Personal Lockouts:
>
> Player Until
> 
> Quazie July 18, 2017
>
> Global Lockout: No
>
>
> Balances:
>
> The following information is provisional, pending one or more CFJs.
>
>   477 Shinies  Agora
>66 Shinies  Organization
> 5 ShiniesAVM
>   518 Shinies  Player
>14 ShiniesAris
>61 ShiniesCuddleBeam
>16 ShiniesGaelan
>10 ShiniesIenpw III
>60 ShiniesMurphy
>53 ShiniesPublius Scribonius Scholasticus
>19 ShiniesQuazie
>40 ShiniesSprocklem
>10 ShiniesVeggiekeks
>74 ShiniesZachary Watterson
> 5 Shiniesais523
>10 Shinieso
>60 Shiniesomd
>15 Shiniestmanthe2nd
>10 Shinies天火狐
>
>
> Budgets:
>
> Player ABM  ACU  AVM  蘭亭社 Expenditure
> ---
> ais523  25   30   55
> Murphy   50   50
> o 50  50
> omd  20   20
> Sprocklem   25   20   45
> 天火狐   5050
>
> Income  50  120   5050   270
>
> ABM = The Agoran Betting Market
> ACU = The Agoran Credit Union
> AVM = The Agoran Voting Market
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: Distribution of Proposals 7858-7863

[Josh T]

I vote as follows:
> 7958*  Aris, [1] 3.0  Assets v7  Aris   6

AGAINST. I have expressed several concerns about this and Organizations
which have not been addressed to my satisfaction.

> 7859*  Quazie, grok  1.7  Gentle Judicial UpdatesQuazie 6

I endorse ais529 for resons similar to Aris.

> 7860*  Quazie1.7  Cards are power 1.7Quazie 6

PRESENT.

> 7861*  Quazie, [2]   3.0  Trivia(l)  Quazie 6

PRESENT.

> 7862*  Quazie, [3]   1.7  Betterer Pledges   Quazie 6

FOR.

> 7863*  Quazie1.2  Why should outsiders...[4] Quazie 6

PRESENT.


天火狐



On 11 June 2017 at 23:40, Aris Merchant 
wrote:

> > On Sun, 2017-06-11 at 18:32 -0700, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> ID Author(s) AI   Title  Pender Fee
> >> 
> > I vote as follows:
> >> 7958*  Aris, [1] 3.0  Assets v7  Aris   6
> FOR. It's about time.
> >> 7859*  Quazie, grok  1.7  Gentle Judicial UpdatesQuazie 6
> Endorse ais523, as it's in eir area of control.
> >> 7860*  Quazie1.7  Cards are power 1.7Quazie 6
> FOR
> >> 7861*  Quazie, [2]   3.0  Trivia(l)  Quazie 6
> AGAINST. I just noticed that this is ambiguous, as it appears to say
> that only trivial proposals can be pended by the new mechanism, while
> defining trivial proposals in a rather subjective way.
> >> 7862*  Quazie, [3]   1.7  Betterer Pledges   Quazie 6
> FOR, despite reservations about the contract-like provisions.
> >> 7863*  Quazie1.2  Why should outsiders...[4] Quazie 6
> PRESENT. I'm going to stay out of this.
>
> -Aris
>