subject:"Re\: \[SlimDevices\: Audiophiles\] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles..."


paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
 Well, not to belabor the point either, but of course it does. If one
 program is a memory player and one is not, it can make all the
 difference in the world.
 

The programs we are talking about are rippers. If two rippers (of the
standard sort that the TAS people are talking about, that used standard
library functions to write data to disc) write out bit-identical files,
if there are any differences at all due to the location on disc, etc,
etc, then those differences BY DEFINITION have nothing to do with the
behavior of the rippers. The TAS people even admitted that the files
were bit identical. Note that we could change the locations by simply
moving the files: would these differences still exist? Would they then
be due to the move? They clearly wouldn't be because of different
behavior by the rippers.

paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
 
 Not meaning this rudely, but you would probably reject an assertation
 by someone who told you your conclusions about your system were wrong.
 Besides which, Most people are quite capable of a objectively deciding
 what is and is not bull crap. 
 

I might or might not, depends what the conclusions I made were. I've
certainly been wrong about things before, and had people tell me so:
not sure why I would be so quick to reject someone telling me such a
thing if it was about an effect I was already dubious of.

Not sure that either people are capable in general of detecting
bullshit, or that it's strictly relevant here.

paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
 
 You conflate hearing differences in audio equipment with UFOs? Just to
 point out how absurd that sounds to me (ymmv),  note that people do see
 UFOs every day. Just because none of them happen to be extraterrestrial
 spacecraft does not mean they didn't see something, be that a bird, a
 cloud, a jet, or the planet Venus. And thy saw something real.
 

As I said, pick your favorite counterfactual belief. People once
believed the earth revolved around the sun. People somewhat recently
rejected the germ theory of disease causation. Sometimes people are
just wrong. Sometimes they experience something, and make it into
something else in their heads. 

Honestly, I don't even care all that much about this sort of anecdotal
evidence. It just isn't relevant in any engineering related field. If
it's reproducible in a controlled manner, then it can be discussed.
Otherwise, we   may as well be talking about pixie dust.

paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
  
 In the same line of reasoning, people who hear a difference really do
 hear a difference. Whatever the mundane reason for the difference may
 be. Now yes, I believe there will be a mundane reason, I don't think
 cables do a lot of quantum tunneling myself...
 

They THINK they hear a difference. They may or may not actually hear a
difference. There is a literature on this stuff. Confirmation bias is
often the most likely explanation, and unless it's ruled out, there
isn't a lot of point even bothering.

paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
 
 As for a large number of people, well, where there is smoke, you can
 bet some form of combustion is happening. The reasons or explanations
 the give are probably less than accurate, but that something is
 happening is probably pretty likely. Again, YMMV.
 
Not necessarily at all. Confirmation bias needs to be addressed. This
is why blind tests are used in the medical field. I truly do not
understand why anyone thinks audio is so special that there must be no
such thing as confirmation biases.

paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
 
 Why bother? What on earth do you have to prove to anyone other than
 yourself? And you can already hear a difference, so why not just enjoy
 the music? Now, that's within reason. If you are like me, you have a
 dollar limit which means crazy insanely priced anything is off the
 table. But if you hear a difference between say, a $5 USB cable and a
 $50 one, then it is probably not worth the bother to blnid test, and I
 would just buy the $50 one and be happy.
 

Partially I like to argue for the fun of it. Partially because people
like item_audio who spew bullshit really annoy me, and I don't see any
reason why they should be given a free reign. Partially because all my
friends are engineers and scientists, and I'm embarrassed to be called
an audiophile, because the term has been brought into disrepute by this
kind of stuff, and all during my youth I aspired to be one.

paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
  
 To each their own. I personally dislike Internet anonymity -too many
 people will say anything about anybody or anything if they feel safe
 behind an anonymous screen name.  I try hard to not say anything I
 would not say face to face. More, because writing lacks the physical
 clues that tell people what your intention really is.
 

I sort of agree with you. And even though I can be abrasive online, I
can assure you that I am that abrasive in person (although as you say,
it may be mitigated by body

Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread Mnyb


paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote: 
 
 
 snip
 
 As for a large number of people, well, where there is smoke, you can
 bet some form of combustion is happening. The reasons or explanations
 the give are probably less than accurate, but that something is
 happening is probably pretty likely. Again, YMMV.
 
 Paul

We already found the fire several decades ago , it is called placebo
effect expectational bias or confirmation bias or perceptual bias hence
why measurements and -controlled- listening test (ABX or similar ) is
used when developing audio . This may be hard to do at home just keep
in mind that any sighthed testing have these side effect and they are
not optional they are always there there is no golden eared way to
mentally block this.
So skepticism is good here I heard what ?
The perceptual bias effects is in case of subtle differences bigger
than what you try to assess .

Hence why people hear differences between properly designed digital
transports in sigthed tests and report anecdotes about it while in the
real world such differences are extremely unlikely and the bias effect
is extremely likely.

People will always experience differences in sighted test of anything
that is a proven null, it migth be cheese or wine or whatever .

This effect has been used to great effect, there is an classic
experiment where people in a workplace had access to a knob where they
could adjust room temperature in a small interval (so they where told )
and they enjoyed their workplace much more, this sense of control was
very beneficial. Of course the knob did absolutely nothing .

And this one.


you hear a difference between say, a $5 USB cable and a $50 one, then
it is probably not worth the bother to blind test, and I would just buy
the $50 one and be happy.


The snake oil sales guys love customers like you :) when you are
accustomed to pay 50$ you may later on improve this with a say 100$
one


-- 
Mnyb


Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad 64gB wifi +3g with iPengHD  SqueezePad
(in storage SB3, reciever ,controller )

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread chill


totoro;693725 Wrote: 
 People once believed the earth revolved around the sun.

Have we stopped believing this now?  Wow, you stop paying attention for
5 minutes...

(Sorry - I agreed with every other word of your post :))


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


totoro;693725 Wrote: 
 The programs we are talking about are rippers. If two rippers (of the
 standard sort that the TAS people are talking about, that used standard
 library functions to write data to disc) write out bit-identical files,
 if there are any differences at all due to the location on disc, etc,
 etc, then those differences BY DEFINITION have nothing to do with the
 behavior of the rippers. The TAS people even admitted that the files
 were bit identical. Note that we could change the locations by simply
 moving the files: would these differences still exist? Would they then
 be due to the move? They clearly wouldn't be because of different
 behavior by the rippers.

You have to, in this case, play the thing to hear any difference. I
would posit that any possible difference that might be there is due to
the way the player reads and plays the file. I don't buy there is any
hidden information in the file. 

You might note I indicated extreme fragmentation of the file I wrote
and tested against a contiguous file. When I say extreme I mean to a
degree that is utterly unlikely to occur in normal operation. Also, I
sent the file to a locally attached DAC, not over the network, which
would, I suspect, have eliminated any difference. 

Still, it is a reproducible and easily duplicated test that will show
up differences in the sound of the playback of two bit for bit
identical files.

As I indicated, I am highly skeptical of the TAS article and it's
authors. But, there are people who are reporting similar phenomena, and
some of these folks have a lot more credibility. Not only that, but it
is not just one or two peoe alone in the dark- but a dozen or so. I
am not ready to dismiss the possibility as swamp gas. Yet.


 I might or might not, depends what the conclusions I made were. I've
 certainly been wrong about things before, and had people tell me so:
 not sure why I would be so quick to reject someone telling me such a
 thing if it was about an effect I was already dubious of. 

Perhaps. However, in this thread, just by saying I can hear a
difference in two USB cables between a particular machine and a
particular DAC, I have been told I have been brainwashed by a cult. :)


To but that in perspective, I was irritated when I found I could hear a
difference, and enlisted my wife to help disprove what I thought I
heard. With suitable blind testing, I was able to identify each cable
19 out of 20 times. In the process, my wife decided she could hear a
difference, and when we switched places, she identified the correct
cable 20 out of 20 times, blindly. More, over the next few weeks, I
switched the cables randomly, and almost very time, she noticed the
switch with no prompting or cues from me. Got to the point it pissed
her off each time I switched them around, in fact. :D

Note please, that was enough to convince me to trust my own ears, at
least when judging USB cables in this particular situation!


 Not sure that either people are capable in general of detecting
 bullshit, or that it's strictly relevant here.[/]
 
 I am, but you are welcome to your point of view and own opinion here.
 That is the point of what I am arguing anyway!
 
 
Honestly, I don't even care all that much about this sort of anecdotal
  evidence. It just isn't relevant in any engineering related field. If
  it's reproducible in a controlled manner, then it can be discussed.
  Otherwise, we   may as well be talking about pixie dust.  
 
 That's what I said about learning to weld, but I still had to do that
 to be able to Software Engineer behind my name. Don't know if they
 still make the kids do that, but I hope so.  Anomalous events lead to
 great discoveries, both in theory as well as in practical terms.
 Sometimes.
 
They THINK they hear a difference. They may or may not actually hear a
  difference. There is a literature on this stuff. Confirmation bias is
  often the most likely explanation, and unless it's ruled out, there
  isn't a lot of point even bothering.   
 
 Here we fundamentally differ. If someone thinks they hear a
 difference, then they do hear a difference. It is just asinine to say
 the don't, and serves no purpose. 
 
 Unless that 'someone' is a company or trying to sell you something,
 or trying to come off as an authority, or tell you what to do, or
 something along those lines. Then it is just good sense.
 
 As for USB cables, try some. if you personally do or do not hear a
 difference, I will believe you. :) I do not actually find you
 abrasive. I am a little amused that some would equate me with Xinu or
 whatever, over a USB cable. 
 
 Have you tried listening to different cables to see if you hear a
 difference?
 
 Paul


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread mlsstl


I've mentioned this book in the past, but a very readable tome on the
subject of human perception is Dr. Cordelia Fine's A Mind of Its Own:
How Your Brain Distorts  Deceives. 

Expectation bias is far too limited a term as it implies we can only
be fooled by what we already expect. Things are far more complex, and
much of the activity takes place at a subconscious level. 

A fundamental basic of any scientific research is weeding out as many
variables as possible. And in audio, the human is the biggest wildcard
of all.

One of the common deceptions in audio is for people to take their
personal subjective experience and universalize it. They treat their
own perception as the highest grade, most accurate test instrument in
existence. We've just seen a very good software and systems engineer
demonstrate that. He heard it, it must be true. why would anyone need
to test further? If you can't hear it, you must be a neanderthal or
your system inferior. 

The other problem with audio is that many home listeners appear to have
this strong need to have their personal perceptions accepted as
science-based fact, and will put forth all manner of exotic
explanations to prove it. You've probably gone too far if you start
invoking quantum theory to explain what you're hearing in your den.
;-)

However, if I'm a home listener and fat braided wires, special stones,
magic crystals and whatever else aid my enjoyment when I play back
recorded music, then hallelujah! Enjoy the music but keep in mind that
nothing about that experience is anything more than my personal
perception.


-- 
mlsstl

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread mlsstl


paul.raulerson: Wrote: 
  I have been told I have been brainwashed by a cult. :) 

No, it means you're human. Surprise!

I read your explanation of your home tests and the confidence you
derived from them. That's a great way to make a personal decision
regarding the equipment and accessories you select. That's more than
many do. 

However, a husband and wife working together to confirm what the
husband believes he already hears hardly qualifies as a blind test.
Just another variant of the old even my wife could hear it! proof. 

As noted, Cordelia Fine's book is a great read and very enlightening.
And it doesn't contain a single example based on audio. However, we
don't cease being subject to our human frailties just because the
subject turns to audio.


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


I think we are in danger of losing the plot of this thread here (if it
ever had one?).

Let's seperate 3 things:

1) The TAS article, in particular its claims about wav-flac conversion
being an irreversible, detrimental process. This is what I'm railing
against when I attack them. It is just a plain and simple lie. It is
mathematically provable - as with many other things, but unlike most
audiophile nonsense. I don't care what they convinced themselves they
heard. It was all in their heads. None of it is true. Not in this
universe/reality.

2) Things that can possible impact playback on a PC music system, by
which I mean (and only mean) a PC motherboard connected to a hard disk
and to a PC soundcard (internal or external) or a USB-S/pdif interface
or a USB DAC. These things include the influence of USB cables or the
influence of fragmented disk drives.

3) What happens/might happen in a normal SB system (the thing this
forum is theoretically supposed to be focussed on). By Normal I mean
where the music files live somewhere on some network and there is no
connection from that place to the SB player except via ethernet (wi-fi
or wired).

We seem to be partially conflating these things.

I've tried to be very explicit in my posts about #2. In #2 all manner
of unpredictable cr@p can and probably does happen because computers
are NOT designed to minimise noise that might impact DAC's or (even
more fragile)s/pdif interfaces. They are designed to handle certain
types of noise that might interfere with the computer doing its
essential job of number crunching and interrupt handling. In many DS
devices (Linn, Naim et al) that are basically computers+ disk drives
+DAC's in a fancy audiophile box, they are carefully designed to handle
the motherboard/disk noise issue. This is why they will easily
outperform most if not all traditional PC-based systems. 

In #2 I wouldn't be in the least surprised to hear of differences from
USB cables connecting PC's to USB DAC's. Nor would it totally surprise
me to hear of differences from caching the data into RAM or using SSD's
or even fragmentation of a hard disk.

In fact, there are so many possible variables that the only real way to
fix the problem is to do what Linn, Naim etc have done and design it out
through better hardware.

This is also one of the reasons why I jumped on the SB bandwagon 7
years ago. Many of the problems of the #2 variant simply do not
(cannot) apply... and the Linn/Naim route has proved extremely and
unnecessarily expensive. 

Now of course the Touch IS a computer and if you attach a hard disk to
its USB i/f... you are back at #2 again (at least in theory). Whilst a
Touch gets its music data from ethernet, it is immune (in audio
quality terms) from anything that happens on the music data host... or
is it?

There is a possibility of noise entering via a wired ethernet
connection... or via the powser supply or even via (back from) the
external DAC if one is connected...

So: power supplies can be improved, ethernet can be galvanically
isolated (it is supposed to be anyway), we can use the correct (not
solid silver!) ethernet cables (or wi-fi... oh no, I forgot that's a
no-no right?)

Other than that, we really don't need to even think about what is
happening outside of the SB player. We certainly don't need to worry
about any of the things raised in the TAS articles.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread DaveWr


Agree Phil, except the Linn comment is wrong their DS products are
structurally identical to Squeezethings, all are networked players,
indeed ethernet only!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


DaveWr;693772 Wrote: 
 Agree Phil, except the Linn comment is wrong their DS products are
 structurally identical to Squeezethings, all are networked players,
 indeed ethernet only!

Yes - I was thinking about the earlier machines (like the Kivor -
remember those?) - not the modern (DS) ones which I agree are
essentially a Touch on steroids! :-)


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread DaveWr


Sorry, forgot about the Kivor, similarly the Cyrus systems.  Never saw
the point of the all-in-one.  As you described difficulties of computer
systems affecting audio, and why put quickly obsolete storage stuff in
with relatively stable network and audio technology.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


DaveWr;693780 Wrote: 
 Sorry, forgot about the Kivor, similarly the Cyrus systems.  Never saw
 the point of the all-in-one.  As you described difficulties of computer
 systems affecting audio, and why put quickly obsolete storage stuff in
 with relatively stable network and audio technology.

Clearly Linn et al cames to their senses too... :-)

£5k was a lot of money for a PC in 2001 - still is...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


chill;693738 Wrote: 
 Have we stopped believing this now?  Wow, you stop paying attention for
 5 minutes...
 
 (Sorry - I agreed with every other word of your post :))

Got me. :) It was late, I somehow switched earth and sun. Sorry about
that, I do this kind of switcheroo in code occasionally as well, which
is one of the reasons I like strongly typed programming languages.


-- 
totoro

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rythmik f12se

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


paul.raulerson;693754 Wrote: 
 
 Perhaps. However, in this thread, just by saying I can hear a
 difference in two USB cables between a particular machine and a
 particular DAC, I have been told I have been brainwashed by a cult. :)
 
 

Not by me, as I hope you noticed :).


-- 
totoro

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rythmik f12se

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


paul.raulerson;693754 Wrote: 
 
 Here we fundamentally differ. If someone thinks they hear a difference,
 then they do hear a difference. It is just asinine to say the don't, and
 serves no purpose. 
 
 Unless that 'someone' is a company or trying to sell you something, or
 trying to come off as an authority, or tell you what to do, or
 something along those lines. Then it is just good sense
 

I'm sorry, but at this point in the argument (ok, discussion :) ) you
seem to be pretty much ignoring the fact that there is a well
established literature on the way we humans trick ourselves. There are
some videos on youtube by Ethan Winer and Poppy Crum illustrating how
this works for audio at least to some degree. The fact that we do this
has resulted in the pharma industry having to adopt fairly rigorous
blinding for their studies. 

I mentioned before that I find it mysterious that people think that
audio is so radically different than medicine in this regard.

paul.raulerson;693754 Wrote: 
 
 As for USB cables, try some. if you personally do or do not hear a
 difference, I will believe you. :) I do not actually find you abrasive.
 I am a little amused that some would equate me with Xinu or whatever,
 over a USB cable. 
 
 Have you tried listening to different cables to see if you hear a
 difference?
 
 Paul

Isn't Xenu a great galactic emperor who committed a huge genocide (by
putting people in volcanoes and setting them of with hydrogen bombs if
I remember)? I'm pretty sure if _he_ found a difference he wasn't
expecting, he would kill everyone involved in the making of all of them
:).

The only place I ever use a usb cable for anything audio related is at
work, and I have randomly chosen usb cables out of a box a couple times
there: never noticed a difference. But I wouldn't take that as evidence
either way, given the environment there (kind of noisy, not
particularly good spund card) and the fact that I wasn't trying to
discern a difference.


-- 
totoro

sb touch - classdaudio sds-450 - audio physic tempo 4 + rel storm 3 
rythmik f12se

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


mlsstl;693759 Wrote: 
 No, it means you're human. Surprise!
 
 However, a husband and wife working together to confirm what the
 husband believes he already hears hardly qualifies as a blind test.
 Just another variant of the old even my wife could hear it! proof. 

You sir, do not know my wife. (grin) She could quite easily make the
buffalo on a nickel squeal for mercy...

Actually, we set up the tests so that they were blind, in fact as well
as in principal, and I have high confidence in them. 

Moreover, this is the crux of the matter - it honestly doesn't matter
what I think about your system or beliefs, or what you think about
mine. I am -not- out to convince you of anything at all.

I am quite happy to spend $50 on a USB cable I believe to the best of
my admittedly small ability, makes my system sound better and increases
my enjoyment. 


 As noted, Cordelia Fine's book is a great read and very enlightening.
 And it doesn't contain a single example based on audio. However, we
 don't cease being subject to our human frailties just because the
 subject turns to audio.

It isn't bad. On the other hand, it is a bit sensationalized I think. 
Just my opinion though, YMMV.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


Pretty much 100% agree Phil. Except of course, a Squeezebox sounds
better if the LMS is running on Linux or MacOS instead of Windows.   

-Paul



(grin - you realize I am pulling your chain right? :)  )


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


totoro;693793 Wrote: 
 I'm sorry, but at this point in the argument (ok, discussion :) ) you
 seem to be pretty much ignoring the fact that there is a well
 established literature on the way we humans trick ourselves. There are
 some videos on youtube by Ethan Winer and Poppy Crum illustrating how
 this works for audio at least to some degree. The fact that we do this
 has resulted in the pharma industry having to adopt fairly rigorous
 blinding for their studies. 
 
 I mentioned before that I find it mysterious that people think that
 audio is so radically different than medicine in this regard.

I am not ignoring it, but honestly, I don't think it matters all that
much here. The human ear is a wonderfully sensitive instrument. And in
home audio, we are using it to judge how much we enjoy something, not
trying to do scientific proof of one thing or another. Quite literally,
it doesn't matter why you hear an improvement, as long as you do so
consistently. 

It could be a real difference caused by power or noise or something, it
could be something to do with environmental cues, it could be the color
of the jacket on the cable. 

A friend of mine has a saying he is fond of, and that is that none of
this is a life or death type of issue - we are not killing babies here.
He's right. 

And in some sense, home audio should be treated like art. Two people
can look at a painting and see totally different things. They honestly
do see different things, even though the pigment has not changed
color. 

Music is in the same kind of thing I think. It is not sensible to me to
fume and fuss over it and insist that one cable is better than the
other. Or insist that all cables sound alike.  Or indeed, insist that
measurements re everything. 

The SBT is a great example of that - hooked to a good DAC is flat
competitive with CD transports and Digital Players that cost many
multiples of the combined price of the player and the DAC.  It really
is *that* good. 

When we get reliable and pop/click free USB running from it, I expect
it will sound even better. (At least, with the right USB cable! )

That isn't to say that testing and results are not important, because
they certainly are. But you have to draw a line somewhere. I draw that
line with my ears, moderate testing if I am unsure of my ears, and with
my checkbook. The more you want from my checkbook, the more of that
testing and proof I want. Everyone will be a little different here. 

 Isn't Xenu a great galactic emperor who committed a huge genocide (by
 putting people in volcanoes and setting them of with hydrogen bombs if
 I remember)? I'm pretty sure if _he_ found a difference he wasn't
 expecting, he would kill everyone involved in the making of all of them
 :).
 

Yep, I can see we really agree 100% on that subject. He would have been
pissed that SBTs are so inexpensive. (grin)

 In my normal audio use outside of work, I use an sb touch connected to a
 wireless network. I could try using a usb cable between an external hard
 drive and my server box, but I have a really hard time imagining how
 this would affect anything.

Well we utterly agree here. I meant between a computer and a DAC, or
between a SBT and a DAC.  You would not believe what a SBT sounds like
through a really good USB DAC. Well, if you ignore the pops and clicks.


 As far as the claims by the TAS guys about rippers go: the differences
 between the sound of the files HAVE to be different as a result of the
 ripper being used for their findings to be of any value at all. If
 the differences are due to accidents about the state of the hd and
 could be changed by moving the files, then the whole thing goes
 straight down the toilet.

Going out on a limb here, but some folks I know claim that emailing a
file can change it and make it sound different. I would normally
discount that out of hand, but this came from a very noted record
producer and engineer with her own studio. That gives me serious pause.


I also have a friend who is convinced that the power supply makes a
difference when ripping. I have listened to a bit of his stuff, and
darned if I didn't think I heard a difference. Note - think  - I am
NOT convinced I actually did hear a difference. Unlike with the USB
cables. :D

-Paul


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


paul.raulerson;693812 Wrote: 
 Pretty much 100% agree Phil. Except of course, a Squeezebox sounds
 better if the LMS is running on Linux or MacOS instead of Windows.   
 
 -Paul
 
 
 
 (grin - you realize I am pulling your chain right? :)  )

:-) oh yeah... nearly got me!


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ain't what you'd call minimal...
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread Wombat


paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 
 Going out on a limb here, but some folks I know claim that emailing a
 file can change it and make it sound different. I would normally
 discount that out of hand, but this came from a very noted record
 producer and engineer with her own studio. That gives me serious pause.
 
 
 I also have a friend who is convinced that the power supply makes a
 difference when ripping. I have listened to a bit of his stuff, and
 darned if I didn't think I heard a difference. Note - think  - I am
 NOT convinced I actually did hear a difference. Unlike with the USB
 cables. :D
 
 -Paul
At least we now can imagine were your gullibility comes from if you
correspond with such people. 
20 years back these people were some fellows in circles and for sure
they had some fun underneath.
Unfortunately these days such people can pestilate the internet and
there is not much we can do.
Even here in the Slimdevices forum where many rational thinking people
all the time do nice argueing the sheer mass of people with assertions
without substance becomes tiring.
Even the term ABX test gets used inflationary without any evidense by
the ones that claim they have done it.
Reading that bullshit became a waste of time.
I think i am done with this section of the forum. Several other members
that had to say really interesting stuff don´t post since long already
:(


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


Wombat;693829 Wrote: 
 At least we now can imagine were your gullibility comes from if you
 correspond with such people. 
 :(

Ah, and you make my point about the ugly trolls prowling around the
Internet. I said that the people I was talking with are respectable
enough to make me at least think about it, and you chime in with your
comment.

Brilliant example!

Do you think me gullible enough to fall for your kind of thinking? 

Paul


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread ralphpnj


paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 A friend of mine has a saying he is fond of, and that is that none of
 this is a life or death type of issue - we are not killing babies here.
 He's right. 

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

I agree that the grand scheme of things home audio isn't all that
important but that doesn't mean that basic rules of behavior should not
be applied to home audio. Snake oil salesmen, whether they are quacks
trying to sell worthless cancer cures to people suffering for this
horrible illness or people selling magic stones to audiophiles, are
willfully dishonest individuals whose behavior is reprehensible and
they should be drummed with as much vigor as one can muster.

paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 And in some sense, home audio should be treated like art. Two people can
 look at a painting and see totally different things. They honestly do
 see different things, even though the pigment has not changed color. 

As for home audio being like art this partially true but there are some
very important differences. The main difference is that home audio
involves electronic equipment and designing and building that equipment
requires knowledge and understanding of basic electrical engineer
principles. So while audiophiles may treat their systems as works of
art the equipment designers most likely do not treat these things as
art.

paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 Music is in the same kind of thing I think. It is not sensible to me to
 fume and fuss over it and insist that one cable is better than the
 other. Or insist that all cables sound alike.  Or indeed, insist that
 measurements re everything.

Again you are confusing music with the playback of recorded music
through an audio system. I'm not sure that I can explain this as well
as I'd like to but I'll give it a shot:

Louis Armstrong - The Complete Hot Fives and Hot Seven Recordings is
music.

Jazz at the Pawn Shop is recorded music through an audio system.

Dave Holland Quartet - Conference of the Birds is both music and
recorded music through an audio system.

paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 The SBT is a great example of that - hooked to a good DAC is flat
 competitive with CD transports and Digital Players that cost many
 multiples of the combined price of the player and the DAC.  It really
 is *that* good
 -Paul

While all of us here on this forum may know this to be true and this
has also been pointed out it several reviews of various Squeezebox
players in different audio magazines these magazines NEVER use any
Squeezebox players has the basis for comparisons when reviewing CD
transports and Digital Players. NEVER! And if a Squeezebox is ever
mentioned in these rags it is only along the lines of I love my SB
Touch, it's great of listening to Internet radio in the background.

All of which leads me to believe that these audio magazines are there
to serve the interests of the advertisers and not the interests of the
readers.


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread darrell


paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 
 Going out on a limb here, but some folks I know claim that emailing a
 file can change it and make it sound different. I would normally
 discount that out of hand, but this came from a very noted record
 producer and engineer with her own studio. That gives me serious pause.
 
 
This is easy to clear up. compare the emailed file (bit for bit) with
the original. If it is the same, it is the same, and will sound the
same, regardless of the credentials of those who say otherwise. If it
is not the same, all bets are off.

The argument from authority is a very poor one.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread garym


darrell;693838 Wrote: 
 This is easy to clear up. compare the emailed file (bit for bit) with
 the original. If it is the same, it is the same, and will sound the
 same, regardless of the credentials of those who say otherwise. If it
 is not the same, all bets are off.
 
 The argument from authority is a very poor one.

I have very few acquaintances in the recording studio sort of
occupation, but strangely enough, those I do know (and these are
veterans of, say, 1970s analog recording) seem to be MUCH LESS
knowledgeable of how digital music (and computers) actually works than
the average poster at this forum. 

Based on my limited sample of these folks and a few high end audio shop
owners I know (who were also trained in the analog days), I often have
to really shake my head in conversations with them about digital audio.
The misunderstandings are simply unbelievable.  Again, this is
anecdotal, but based on more than just 2 or 3 people


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


Sounds like Cookie Marenco. Google her for all kinds of audiophile
hilarity.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread ralphpnj


paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 Going out on a limb here, but some folks I know claim that emailing a
 file can change it and make it sound different. I would normally
 discount that out of hand, but this came from a very noted record
 producer and engineer with her own studio. That gives me serious
 pause.
 
 -Paul

This kind of nonsense, and make no mistake this is pure 100% nonsense,
is truly amazing. I once ran a test which goes a long way towards
showing why this is all nonsense. Here's what I did.

1) I ripped a track from a CD into a wav file.

2) I converted that wav file to a flac file.

3) I uploaded this flac file to a newsgroup which means that the flac
file was converted into a yEnc file (a yEnc encoder converts binary
data, like the data (not music!!!) in a digital audio file, into text)
and that yEnc file was then split into several smaller message files
for posting.

4) I downloaded this yEnc file from the newsgroup which means that all
the posts which contain the text only representation of the binary data
were downloaded and then assembled into one big encoded text file which
was converted back into a flac file.

5) I converted this uploaded/download flac file back into a wav file.

6) Finally I compared the two wav files and guess what - they were
identical!!

This clearly outlines the fundamental difference between digital data
and analog data and this is quite clearly something that the authors of
the TAS series in question either don't understand or, more likely,
understand all too well and willfully ignore since getting the
readership of TAS confused about these very clear differences between
digital and analog data serves the purposes of the TAS advertisers to a
tee!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread chill


paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote: 
 I also have a friend who is convinced that the power supply makes a
 difference when ripping. I have listened to a bit of his stuff, and
 darned if I didn't think I heard a difference. Note - think  - I am
 NOT convinced I actually did hear a difference. Unlike with the USB
 cables. :D

Paul - the problem with this is PRECISELY the same as the problem with
those daft TAS claims.  If a file ripped on a PC with a lousy power
supply is bit-for-bit identical with one ripped from a PC with a better
power supply, then the power supply made no difference.  Just as the
ripper makes no difference.  It's as simple as that - there really is
nothing but the bits in a rip.

Do you not see that?  How can you give this a moment's credence?  I'm
afraid this doesn't help your case regarding your claims about USB
cables.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


ralphpnj;693842 Wrote: 
 
 3) I uploaded this flac file to a newsgroup which means that the flac
 file was converted into a yEnc file (a yEnc encoder converts binary
 data, like the data (not music!!!) in a digital audio file, into text)
 and that yEnc file was then split into several smaller message files
 for posting.

uuencode and base64 sound waaay better than yEnc. :D


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread Mnyb


andy_c;693862 Wrote: 
 uuencode and base64 sound waaay better than yEnc. :D

Which font was used on the newsgroup any serifs would add a peculiar
edge on stuff :D


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


Mnyb;693864 Wrote: 
 Which font was used on the newsgroup any serifs would add a peculiar
 edge on stuff :D

I use only monospaced fonts when reading newsgroups, as the uniform
spacing between bytes reduces jitter considerably! :D


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread Wombat


I stated to read around here is not worth but on the other hand you guys
are really a funny crowd sometimes :)
Excuse me if i came across arrogant. You deserve a gold medal for
consistency and nerves of steel!!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


Stick around man! Sanity is not so easy to find in audiophile forums.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread Wombat


andy_c;693877 Wrote: 
 Stick around man! Sanity is not so easy to find in audiophile forums.
Of coarse i will :)

But always when i read such luch statements like this:
paul.raulerson;693808 Wrote: 
 Actually, we set up the tests so that they were blind, in fact as well
 as in principal, and I have high confidence in them.
Closing one eye for a moment on a sighted test is the max i anticipate
of such a claim.
Me did some serious ABX tests for more than 10 years now and was asked
for such results by the Lame mp3 developers for example till the end of
version 3.98 for samples i found myself, samples that were hard to
identify but verified by some people i respect to have really above
average hearing.
So when some self-proclaimed golden ear throws out such bullshit in
forums without any serious backup i feel a bit *@!X#+, sorry.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


What I've noticed is that people who value blind tests know that they
are difficult to perform correctly, and are therefore unlikely to
perform such tests on a hypothesis having little merit. And yet one
reads claims of blind testing of pretty questionable hypotheses, with
alleged positive results! Where does this come from?

What I see a lot is vague descriptions of the test methodology, making
the results unrepeatable. Or in rare cases of clear description of the
methodology, one often finds that the probability of the outcome by
guessing is 0.5, rather than the negligibly small value it should be.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


chill;693843 Wrote: 
 Paul - the problem with this is PRECISELY the same as the problem with
 those daft TAS claims.  If a file ripped on a PC with a lousy power
 supply is bit-for-bit identical with one ripped from a PC with a better
 power supply, then the power supply made no difference.  Just as the
 ripper makes no difference.  It's as simple as that - there really is
 nothing but the bits in a rip.
 
 Do you not see that?  How can you give this a moment's credence?  I'm
 afraid this doesn't help your case regarding your claims about USB
 cables.

Whoa - who said I was making a case? I said quite simply that I wasn't
ready to dismiss it as swamp gas, because there is a possibility that
something is going on I don't understand. I did not make a conclusion
as to what that might be. 

Take two jumps back and enjoy some nice music. :) 

-Paul


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


Wombat;693879 Wrote: 
 Of coarse i will :)
 
 But always when i read such luch statements like this:
 
 Closing one eye for a moment on a sighted test is the max i anticipate
 of such a claim.

Then you are being nothing more than an arse. For one thing, I didn't
test to convince you, just myself.  

Have you tested a few USB cables out to see if you can hear any
difference? Any proof that as few as three different USB cables sound
the same in your system? Or are you sprouting untested theory? 

Oh, and what they heck makes you think you have to close your eyes for
a test to be blind?  SImply making it impossible to know what cable is
in circuit is quite satisfactory.  (sarcasm intended)

-Paul


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


andy_c;693883 Wrote: 
 What I've noticed is that people who value blind tests know that they
 are difficult to perform correctly, and are therefore unlikely to
 perform such tests on a hypothesis having little merit. And yet one
 reads claims of blind testing of pretty questionable hypotheses, with
 alleged positive results! Where does this come from?
 
 What I see a lot is vague descriptions of the test methodology, making
 the results unrepeatable. Or in rare cases of clear description of the
 methodology, one often finds that the probability of the outcome by
 guessing is 0.5, rather than the negligibly small value it should be.

Whooo boy. Are you guys really going around the world to get next door.


It's really pretty simple - there is no club initiation to enjoy home
audio as a hobby. No certification exams, nor any oversight agency
checking credentials. 

I'm not sure how you find standards for evaluating home audio on a
personal basis. 

Anyone is welcome to design, conduct, and publish any tests they like.
Some of them are going to be pure crap - as witness the TAS articles in
question. 

Why don't more people do so, and to rigorous standards you accept? Why
haven't you done so? 

That's a trick question, you already answered it. Because it is a lot
of work, right?  

This is a hobby - who has time to conduct rigorous lab experiments?
Besides, what's the fun in that? How many people would spend $300 on a
Squeezebox Touch if they had to spend two weeks of their time testing
the thing before they could enjoy it? 

Don't you think it is reasonable to suppose that people can and should
trust their ears to some degree or another? Just assign a dollar limit
to what makes sense and go have fun with the stuff. 

Great heavens. If you are not having fun with, go play with something
else. Reefkeeping is fun/ Dosing tanks with Vodka is the current fad
running around in that world. 

Imagine that - wasting good vodka on coral - yikes! That's worse
perhaps than wasting two weeks testing equipment to meet some
non-existent global standards. 

-Paul


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


paul.raulerson;693887 Wrote: 
 Whooo boy. Are you guys really going around the world to get next door.
 
 
 It's really pretty simple - there is no club initiation to enjoy home
 audio as a hobby. No certification exams, nor any oversight agency
 checking credentials.

That's fine. In that case, there should be no reason whatsoever for
someone to post the results of his own allegedly blind tests, claiming
to have discovered some audible property of, say, USB cables. It's all
about just enjoying audio, right?

On the one hand, you are here with something to prove regarding the
alleged audibility of USB cables, but on the other, you claim that
there is nothing to prove. Either way is fine with me, but you can't
have it both ways.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-03 Thread Mnyb


totoro;693725 Wrote: 
 
 Not sure that either people are capable in general of detecting
 bullshit, or that it's strictly relevant here
 
 Partially I like to argue for the fun of it. Partially because people
 like item_audio who spew bullshit really annoy me, and I don't see any
 reason why they should be given a free reign. Partially because all my
 friends are engineers and scientists, and I'm embarrassed to be called
 an audiophile, because the term has been brought into disrepute by this
 kind of stuff, and all during my youth I aspired to be one.
 
 But the increasing lack of privacy online makes any possible real
 harassment by nutters (and I must hasten to say that I'm not including
 you in that class) potentially damaging.

People are in general not so good at  detecting bullshit , the whole
alternative medicine circus is prime example society is rife with this
. There is simply to much to learn in modern life there will exist some
situation in life where all of us are gullible idiots and consequently
people who prey on this and want to separate us from our money.

I also think that audio once was an respectable hobby has turned in to
a parody and is closer to new age crystal therapy than engineering
these days and it makes me genuinely embarrassed .
I want to reboot the audio hobby to what it once was.

Speaking of brainwashed by the cult , been there done that got the
T-shirt, I have a closet full of bizarre cables .

TAS and the other cultists are propagating this kind of uncritical
magical thinking, pseudoscience is not isolated to hifi ( just as audio
is not a special case of engineering with other laws of physics ) and is
a real problem any movement that is a part of this larger problems
deserves to put down sometimes.

And it is not harmless even for audio due to this cargo cult
engineering :

In the best case scenario the product is just over engineered and
overly fancy parts of the products have been designed not for sq but to
cater for audio fool believes for example bewaring terminals special
boutique components, but the design is working it may be 5-10 times
more expensive than it should be but at least it is a decent design.

Then there is completely crackpot designs that are extremely expensive
and useless as audio products like audionote they are actually worse
than any cheap brand-name reciever you can find .
There is no special magic with high thd low power high output impedance
inability to drive speakers.
This is cargo cult you attribute emotional states to the machines used
to reproduce the music the amps don not sing for you it is the
musicians that makes the music not the hifi system, the thinking error
here is that it is the hifi that needs to be musical .

But the Sfx stops at the studio to actually hear what's on the discs
you should strive to the usual boring stuff like flat frequency
response low thd low noise .
And to drive speakers, power this is greatly overlooked just have the
power reserve to never drive 
anything to clipping and the sound is very relaxed and grain free.

And then we stuff somewhat in-between decent DAC  improved  by tube
outputs .

And all the over design that is done to speak to audiophiles emotions,
with gold handles and glowing tubes chromed covers audio bling bling ,
when are people going to realise that box cost more than it's content.
Futuristic looking speakers any one ? my own main speakers is at some
fault here they would be better in a more PMC like box a cube on a
stand deep with small surface area as it is now the midrange is to
close to the floor , but such boring designs are unmarketable .
This is not functional at all more like expensive interior design
sculptures people buy 2$ stand mounts 2 way speakers may be good
speakers but not by far the optimal method of transforming the signal
from the amp to sound waves, for the money .

And the conservatism active speakers are hardly known by audiophiles as
an example.
So time stand stills in audiophile country it is basically the same
stuff over and over again and of course mkIII is of the same old design
is more expensive ;) it always is .

So the  harmless  audiophile cult has catered us with garish
expensive junk called high end and and a time machine worthy of doctor
who where we can enjoy bygone engineering standards abandoned by any
sane designer at ridiculous prices .

They are of course products that brims over with solid engineering but
you have to look for them and even then it can be slightly backwards
due to market demands for example the silliness of not having tone
controls anymore in very expensive preamps.


-- 
Mnyb


Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
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(in

Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread darrenyeats

Phil Leigh;693553 Wrote:
It is theoretically possible (but highly unlikely) for two identical
copies of a file to play back differently if AND ONLY IF:

1) the hard disk is INSIDE the computer, attached to the motherboard.
2) the soundcard with DAC is part of the PC.

and the electrical noise pattern generated by the hard drive (which
might be different when it reads the two files) messes with the DAC
differently.

Now, I'm sure you can see how hard I'm stretching here to even invent a
scenario by which this might be possible, so let me try to answer it
another way:

THERE IS NO FRICKIN WAY.

... ask ANYONE who works in recording studios if they think it is
possible (remember these people have done more copying of music files
and listening than anyone else).

They will simply laugh.
ProTools anyone?

Computers work through layered, dynamic processes which mean ANY
playback will be electrically different. In fact, replaying the same
file a second time is more likely to yield a difference because the
file is likely to be cached entirely in memory the second time. I say
likely because dynamic management means the cache is reclaimed
piecemeal by other processes as time goes on...

None of this is useful from an audio point of view in terms of
understanding what is better or worse noise! The audio designer
should concentrate on rejecting EMI and RFI noise from wherever it
comes - whether computer circuits or a fridge. (Which gives me an idea:
the audiophile fridge!)
Darren

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


darrenyeats;693557 Wrote: 
 Computers work through layered, dynamic processes which mean ANY
 playback will be electrically different. In fact, replaying the same
 file a second time is more likely to yield a difference because the
 file is likely to be cached entirely in memory the second time. I say
 likely because dynamic management means the cache is reclaimed
 piecemeal by other processes as time goes on...
 
 None of this is useful from an audio point of view in terms of
 understanding what is better or worse noise, if predictions can be
 made at all! The audio designer should concentrate on rejecting EMI and
 RFI noise from wherever it comes - whether computer circuits or a
 fridge. (Which gives me an idea: the audiophile fridge!)
 Darren
 
 Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

Which is why some of these Audio PC solutions cache the entire track
in RAM first before playback commences...

But I agree that EVERY event is electrically different froma noise
perspective.

Which as you imply makes a complete mockerey of the whole thing.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread darrenyeats


Phil Leigh;693560 Wrote: 
 Which is why some of these Audio PC solutions cache the entire track
 in RAM first before playback commences...
 
 But I agree that EVERY event is electrically different froma noise
 perspective.
 
 Which as you imply makes a complete mockerey of the whole thing.

Agreed Phil.

I see this as an audio engineering problem with audio engineering
solutions. Loads of computers and other equipment add up to effectively
random grunge on the power supply, equipment needs to deal with it. I
use a Touch with optical connection to outboard DAC, power supply
grunge and RFI are the only things to contend with. 

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread Soulkeeper


ncarver;693545 Wrote: 
 Just to clarify, are you saying that it is so clearly impossible for two
 bit-identical copies of an audio/video file stored on a computer to play
 differently on that computer, that absolutely no effort needs to be
 wasted to refute such a claim, and those making the claim are fools?

No. But I am saying that if you have two bit-identical files, it is
impossible for the history of the content of these files to cause them
to be play differently on any computer. And therefore absolutely no
effort needs to be wasted to refute such a claim, and those making the
claim are fools.

Note that I said -the history of the content-. 

If one file is stored on an SSD disk and the other on a 5,25 floppy,
that may affect the performance of the computer at playback, and thus
affect the sound. But that wasn't at all what I said.


-- 
Soulkeeper

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


Soulkeeper;693578 Wrote: 
 No. But I am saying that if you have two bit-identical files, it is
 impossible for the history of the content of these files to cause them
 to be play differently on any computer. And therefore absolutely no
 effort needs to be wasted to refute such a claim, and those making the
 claim are fools.
 
 Note that I said -the history of the content-. 
 
 If one file is stored on an SSD disk and the other on a 5,25 floppy,
 that may affect the performance of the computer at playback, and thus
 affect the sound. But that wasn't at all what I said.

Indeed - because if that were true, computers simply WOULD NOT WORK AT
ALL.

What the TAS idiots seem to be unable to grasp (unlike any 6 year old)
is that raw data is... JUST RAW DATA! It doesn't have a history or
heritage embedded within it, or a soul or any form of high conscience.
It's just NUMBERS!.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread bluegaspode


Phil Leigh;693553 Wrote: 
 They will simply laugh.
 ProTools anyone?

But ProTools is so expensive that they definitely have cared for the
problem that the files they record might sound differently based on the
position of the harddrive where the file is saved.

I think for the same reason ProTools only records in WAV and not FLAC.
I mean everyone knows that multiple conversions would corrupt the files
otherwise.


*cough*


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...


bluegaspode;693594 Wrote: 
 But ProTools is so expensive that they definitely have cared for the
 problem that the files they record might sound differently based on the
 position of the harddrive where the file is saved.
 
 I think for the same reason ProTools only records in WAV and not FLAC.
 I mean everyone knows that multiple conversions would corrupt the files
 otherwise.
 
 
 *cough*

That's a nasty cough, Bluegaspode. I think you need some medicine...


+---+
|Filename: images.jpg   |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13134|
+---+

-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's,
ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters,VdH Toslink,Kimber 8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus
Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread ncarver


Soulkeeper;693578 Wrote: 
 No. But I am saying that if you have two bit-identical files, it is
 impossible for the history of the content of these files to cause them
 to be play differently on any computer. And therefore absolutely no
 effort needs to be wasted to refute such a claim, and those making the
 claim are fools.
 
 Note that I said -the history of the content-. 
 
 If one file is stored on an SSD disk and the other on a 5,25 floppy,
 that may affect the performance of the computer at playback, and thus
 affect the sound. But that wasn't at all what I said.

Phil Leigh;693583 Wrote: 
 Indeed - because if that were true, computers simply WOULD NOT WORK AT
 ALL.
 
 What the TAS idiots seem to be unable to grasp (unlike any 6 year old)
 is that raw data is... JUST RAW DATA! It doesn't have a history or
 heritage embedded within it, or a soul or any form of high conscience.
 It's just NUMBERS!.

I don't understand history of the content.  By that you mean which
one came first, etc.?

So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
on some type of storage device on a computer.  You really want to claim
that it is absolutely impossible for there to be any differences
between the two files that could lead to playback differences on that
computer?

Really??

I would suggest that you might want to think a bit harder, or perhaps
study how large files actually get stored in filesystems.  Hint:  ever
had to defragment a filesystem?  Even if two files are bit-identical,
they may not be stored in exactly the same way in the filesystem.  One
may be nearly contiguous, while the other may be scattered among a set
of relatively small blocks.

Certainly it would be possible to store a sequence of copies of a file
in a filesystem so that the successive copies are increasingly
fragmented, and this fragmentation could potentially cause increasing
playback problems in the copies based on their generation.  I myself
have absolutely encountered situations where some multimedia files
played fine while others--created later--did not, precisely because the
filesystem (NTFS) was becoming increasingly fragmented.  Defragmenting
the filesystem fixed the problems (though the machine was unusable for
a couple of hours!).

While I too doubt TAS' claims--and the mere fact of some files being
copies of others is irrelevant--it is definitely NOT IMPOSSIBLE that
one might experience increasing playback issues with successive copies
made on a fragmented filesystem.  While I think it UNLIKELY that the
scenario I laid out is what happened to TAS, rebutting their claims was
worthy of a bit more than simply sniggering at their stupidity and
calling them names.


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread Wombat


With HD playback is is not as you move bits from HD to the player like
S/PDIF during the whole song in a stream. 
An average song with 50MB needs 2 seconds of HD access somewhere during
its lets say 4 minutes. Depending on the player this access happens in
the beginning to the buffer or otherwise. In these 2 seconds there may
these differences occure, and even then it is very unlikely. If so it
should be questioned if direct PC playback should be used at all.


-- 
Wombat

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monoblocks - Sommer SPK240 - self-made speakers

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread EricBergan


ncarver;693616 Wrote: 
 
 So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
 files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
 on some type of storage device on a computer.  You really want to claim
 that it is absolutely impossible for there to be any differences
 between the two files that could lead to playback differences on that
 computer?
 
 Really??
 
 

Yes. It's called buffering (and caching on the disk controller). You
don't stream bytes from the disk to the DAC. You read sectors (or more
likely blocks) into memory. If there was a severe problem (disk is
failing, for instance) you would get silent gaps between blocks, but
not a degradation of the sound that does play.

eric


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread totoro


ncarver;693616 Wrote: 
 I don't understand history of the content.  By that you mean which one
 came first, etc.?
 
 So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
 files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
 on some type of storage device on a computer.  You really want to claim
 that it is absolutely impossible for there to be any differences
 between the two files that could lead to playback differences on that
 computer?
 
 Really??
 
 I would suggest that you might want to think a bit harder, or perhaps
 study how large files actually get stored in filesystems.  Hint:  ever
 had to defragment a filesystem?  Even if two files are bit-identical,
 they may not be stored in exactly the same way in the filesystem.  One
 may be nearly contiguous, while the other may be scattered among a set
 of relatively small blocks.
 
 Certainly it would be possible to store a sequence of copies of a file
 in a filesystem so that the successive copies are increasingly
 fragmented, and this fragmentation could potentially cause increasing
 playback problems in the copies based on their generation.  I myself
 have absolutely encountered situations where some multimedia files
 played fine while others--created later--did not, precisely because the
 filesystem (NTFS) was becoming increasingly fragmented.  Defragmenting
 the filesystem fixed the problems (though the machine was unusable for
 a couple of hours!).
 
 While I too doubt TAS' claims--and the mere fact of some files being
 copies of others is irrelevant--it is definitely NOT IMPOSSIBLE that
 one might experience increasing playback issues with successive copies
 made on a fragmented filesystem.  While I think it UNLIKELY that the
 scenario I laid out is what happened to TAS, rebutting their claims was
 worthy of a bit more than simply sniggering at their stupidity and
 calling them names.

Have you actually read this thread? Please do so before making any more
comments of this ilk, because this ground has already been covered.

I will cover at least part of it again briefly. The positions of the
file on disc are entirely independent of which program was used to rip
them. The state of the filesystem, which filesystem is in use, the
fullness of the hard drive, the fragmentation of the hard drive, and
which rip occurred first will all have more influence on all of these
things than which program is used to rip the files. On top of that,
simply doing a mv file newlocation will completely change all of
this. 

What is at issue is whether two identical rips ripped by different
programs will sound different _based on the program that was used to
rip them_. This claim is, in fact, utterly foolish, has already been
hashed out a fair amount in this thread, and really should be put to
bed.

Please read the rest of this thread before continuing down this path.


-- 
totoro

sb touch - classdaudio sds-450 - audio physic tempo 4 + rel storm 3 
rythmik f12se

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread Mnyb


TAS copying argument is actually even more silly, they basically imply
that you have to rerip a new WAV file after it has been transcoded to
FLAC and back to WAV and implies that this is an irrecoverable
generational loss which is completely impossible . That no moving
around or defrag or reformatting would ever fix this ?

If it where down to some noise induced by reading different sectors on
a HD , then other things like moving the same file to another folder or
altering a tag or maybe loading other files to the same drive or the OS
migth have... Etc in absurdum.
If this is a mechanism that could make the playback sound different it
is random and not predictable.

And actually the copy could very likely sound better !  ;)

Name calling ? I like Dillbert here, let's call these people 
induhviduals  so they don't get offended .

The TAS writer is a very prominent induhvidual


-- 
Mnyb


Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread cliveb


ncarver;693616 Wrote: 
 So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
 files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
 on some type of storage device on a computer.  You really want to claim
 that it is absolutely impossible for there to be any differences
 between the two files that could lead to playback differences on that
 computer?
OK, it is *vaguely conceivable* that these two files might sound
different.

BUT... based on present knowledge, it seems *overwhelmingly unlikely*.
And investigation of overwhelmingly unlikely phenomena must go right to
the back of the queue of interesting things to do with one's time.

The ball is therefore firmly in the court of those people who would
have us believe that there can be a difference. It is up to them to
present properly conducted ABX tests which demonstrate that they do
indeed hear a difference. Only then would it be worth our time looking
into it. And of course, no such ABX results have ever been presented -
only anecdotal sighted comparisons, which as we all know count for
diddly squat.


-- 
cliveb

Transporter - ATC SCM100A

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...

2012-03-02 Thread Soulkeeper


ncarver;693616 Wrote: 
 I don't understand history of the content.  By that you mean which one
 came first, etc.?
No. Not the history of the files. The history of the content of the
files. Let me illustrate with two hypothetical scenarios. I'll call
them A and B.

Scenario A: 
1) You have an uncompressed file in RAM. Let's say you copied it from
an external disk. 
2) You compress it to FLAC in RAM and uncompress it again, all in RAM.
You repeat this lossless compressing/uncompressing a million times. All
in RAM. 
3) You compare the resulting file with the original, to confirm that no
errors have occured; that the file is stil bit identical to the
original. (If they're not identical, you get a computer that works
properly, and start the experiment from scratch). 
4) You write the resulting file to the computer's internal hard drive,
and reboot the computer.

Scenario B: 
1) You have an uncompressed file in RAM. Let's say you copied it from
an external disk. 
2) You stare blankly at the screen.
3) You compare the resulting file with the original, to confirm that no
errors have occured; that the file is stil bit identical to the
original. (If they're not identical, you get a computer that works
properly, and start the experiment from scratch). 
4) You write the resulting file to the computer's internal hard drive,
and reboot the computer.

Points 1, 3 and 4 are identical in both scenarios. Only point 2
differs.

The question: 
When you subsequently play this file from the harddrive, can the
difference to what you did to the bits in the file while it was sitting
in RAM (step 2 in both scenarios), ultimately make the playback of the
file sound different in scenario A  than in scenario B?


-- 
Soulkeeper

'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com'
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] FUD, intellectual honesty, digital facts, and the TAS articles...