[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New 11c - Pics

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	It might be my fault. I did not notice which address the message  
came through, as I receive both. I just clicked on lute. There is no  
automatic formatting to send the message back, other than to the  
individual who sent it.
Therefore, at each occasion you have to notice where the message was  
addressed. Unfortunately, to type in lute, I only need to click on  
"l", to type in [BAROQUE-LUTE] , I need to type three quarters of it.  
The first, sort of comes naturally, the second takes concentration.


However, in the back of my mind, I suppose I was also thinking that  
the question about Maler  "ateliers" could be of icommon nterest.
When talking with Martin, for example he always seems to be looking  
at both aspects of a lute's history, its original 6c (or whatever)  
form and its various stages of "Baroquing ". He never really talks  
about the one without the other. I realize that the point of view of  
a lute maker, and of a player in this respect, will be different.
I will, therefore, try be more careful next time. Appologies for any  
inconvenience that this might have caused you. Fortunately, I notice  
that the Skype question did not appear in that message.

Regards
Anthony


Le 22 nov. 07 à 13:55, Rob a écrit :

I tried to send the following message, but it contains a word which  
Wayne's
server doesn't like (it begins with su). I got an email asking me  
to not use
that word for the first five lines of text, so here I am talking  
nonsense
and wasting your precious time. Please jump ahead to the paragraph  
below. I
tried to send the following message, but it contains a word which  
Wayne's
server doesn't like (it begins with su). I got an email asking me  
to not use
that word for the first five lines of text, so here I am talking  
nonsense
and wasting your precious time. Please jump ahead to the paragraph  
below.


I tried to send the following message, but it contains a word which  
Wayne's
server doesn't like (it begins with su). I got an email asking me  
to not use
that word for the first five lines of text, so here I am talking  
nonsense
and wasting your precious time. Please jump ahead to the paragraph  
below.




Someone has emailed me to say that this discussion thread (my new  
11c) has
migrated to the Lute list, of which I am not a subscriber. Could we  
please
keep it here on the baroque lute list? It is about baroque lutes,  
after all,

and I did start the thread..



Sorry about the bit at the start of this post.



Rob





www.rmguitar.info








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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c lute - pics

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
I better send this again to the correct list. Actually, after  
writing it, I saw you had already said most of it in a more compact  
form.

Ed and all
I am also sure that Rob's lute will be excellent, and as everyone  
keeps telling me, the player makes 70% of the sound, I would be very  
happy to borrow some of Rob's and Ed's playing skills to make my  
future lute really sing. I am looking forward to the forthcoming on  
line, lute concert from Rob, with this new lute, but I promise not to  
reciprocate.

I am sure you all have the follwoing information, which is freely  
accessible on the Web, but some of it was new to me, while I was  
"studying up" the question, on 9 ribbed, versus 11 ribbed lutes. I  
will just probably repeat what you all know, sorry about that, if it  
is the case.

It seems, the production from the Maler "factory" was huge, making  
our lute maker's productions minute. I believe an inventory of the  
Laux Maler atellier in 1552 included 1100 finished lutes, and 1300  
soundboards ready for use. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/history2.htm

I understand Maler surounded himself with other  lute makers, of  
similar German origin, to produce such a quantity, and that a certain  
standardisation must have been necessary for such an output. The  
simplicity of construction, their combined skills as a team, and  
their knowledge of woods could partly explain the high esteem they  
acheived. (The choice of 9 or 11 ribs may have originally been to  
speed up the process, even if possibly the sound is freer than with a  
multi ribbed lute, due to the use of less glue and paper, leading to  
less "impedance").

You can contrast that with the inventory of Jean Desmoulin in Paris  
in 1648 which included 249 lutes in various stages of construction. I  
think only the one Desmoulin lute survived, rather more Malers, five  
I believe, so it seem that the ratio of surviving lutes to the number  
left in the inventory of the two atelliers is about in proportion,  
unless I got  the calculation wrong (my math(s) is/are poor).
Paris Maler  http://tinyurl.com/2duo22
Paris Desmoulin Desmoulins http://tinyurl.com/29ma6o.

There is one Maler here in Paris, the two Czech republic ones 654,  
and 655, (one of which Rob's lute is a copy), one in the GNM M154,  
and one in the Victoria and Albert.

The two largest ones, the 655 and the V & A have 11 ribs, while all  
the others have 9 ribs. I wondered whether the 11 ribbed ones would  
have similar geometry to the Warwick, but both Malcolm Prior and  
Martin Shepherd tell me that is not the case. It is the Warwick that  
has rather exceptional geometry (well it may not be correct to say  
that it is exceptional, when so few lute have survived. This would  
imply that the surviving lutes are statistically significant, which  
is clearly not the case).

However, Martin Prior tells me that both the Frei and Maler workshops  
continued to well into the 17th century under their heirs. So that  
although the surviving lutes are often supposed to date from  
1530-1550, there is no direct evidence to prove it.

It is strange that less Maler models are now made than Freis,  
considering that more Malers have survived, and the fame they once  
had; however, perhaps the Warwick was strategically well placed  and  
this made the Freis easier to study. The proportion of Frei copies at  
present must far outweigh the number of Malers.
There might be an aesthetic question, perhaps the shape of the  
Warwick, or its related sound quality, for some reason  has been more  
pleasing to recent "modern" taste.
However, if we judge from the Mouton painting, the French Baroque  
soloists may have preferred smaller instruments with a sweet free mid  
tone. Exactly the sound that Rob is looking for.

Nevertheless, it does seem that a number of lute makers are trying to  
give the Maler models the boost they deserve.

Soon to follow there could be a Marx Unverdoben lutes revival? These  
were mentionned in the same breath as Maler and Frei, of which only  
three (possibly 4) I think survive. These do seem to be less  
standardized as I think one from the Van Raalte collection had 9  
ribs, the one in the Harvard museum has 13 ribs with the classic  
almond shape, of which Michael Schreiner seems to be the only  
lutemaker I can find who makes makes an 11c copy,
http://tinyurl.com/2sbdfx

and of course the great Fenton House model that has 31 ribs, and  
seems only suitable as a marvellous 13c swan necked lute of which  
Stephen Gottlieb made a superb copy that I briefly plucked.

Even rarer, perhaps, is the Laux Bosch of Schongau, of which one  
exists in Paris, and which Martin Shepherd tells me is closely  
related to the Malers.
http://tinyurl.com/yw7zhq

Sorry, I better stop before you all fall asleep.
Regards
Anthony

Le 22 nov. 07 =E0 04:00, Edward Martin a ecrit :

> I'll bet you are eager to get this instrument, Rob!
>
> I had a Mahler years ago, a 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	You have given us no news of the latest arrival. perhaps you have  
not had enough time, but we are all (well at least, one of us)  
waiting impatiently to hear about it.

Regards
Anthony
PS I remembered the Baroque list too, this time.

I am trying to make a question about what the "ideal" French Baroque  
lute might be. Let's not call it standard (as in the 8c debate. but I  
suppose there is a tendency to standardize, thus the tendency to Frei/ 
Frey). I wish it was possible to settle on one lute (close enough to  
this ideal) for all the repertoire, but I doubt this is possible.  
There may be more than one "ideal" according to the phase within this  
period (French Baroque) or even according to composer/performer.


We also probably give too much importance to the very few texts that  
talk about this from the period. I am wondering whether taking  
Burwell too literally would not be like taking one of my students  
notes, or even my notes for my students, too seriously.

AH


Le 12 déc. 07 à 16:17, Rob a écrit :

Very clever, Joseph, but I never once said that 'Weiss hints that  
he used

nails'. I see no evidence for that in Weiss' or my own comments.

This one could run and run...I'm off to practice my new 11c...

Rob


=
I think this might be a case of "front-end loading." That is:  
looking at

data from an established point of view - to whit:

Weiss hints that he used nails - that's inconclusive. If Weiss  
hinted that

he didn't use nails - that would be evidence.

Joseph Mayes







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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Rob,
	i see my reply to you, never arrived, perhaps you read it, and you  
will understand that the question of choosing to which list you send  
a message is not so evident. My message was automatically destroyed,  
not I hasten to say because of any questionable content, but because  
I put a few photos of messages to show that many messages about  
Baroque questions, including the recent one about "nails and Weiss"  
do get sent to LUTE.

LUTE is the neutral choice, while BAROQUE takes  a decision.

	My question below, was rhetorical, of course, I know, as you do,  
that there is no such thing, as an "ideal" lute (notice the  
"guillemets", in my original message). However, I have been trying to  
find out, not THE answer, but answers to that question, for some  
years, as Martin could tell you, when I helped him send a message  
about this to the French list . It is true, I am in the process of  
ordering a lute, but that does not alter my questioning. It is a  
chance to look at it in more acuity.


I happen to be a phonetician, and acoustics, and resonators, are our  
stock in trade. This inclines me to ask such questions. I am rather  
surprised, in fact, that few lutists seem to do so.
Indeed, I was quite positively surprised to see you mentioning  
specifically, this question of resonance, open strings and the type  
of tuning, in favour of Bologna lutes (a little in the same direction  
as Burwell, although, she doesn't actually make the relation with the  
music). Indeed, I quoted you on that point to Stephen who seemed  
basically to be in agreement with you.


I do not want to begin discussing the question right now, but, I do  
notice that when Hoppy made recordings on LP, his reasons supported  
by Musicologists for choosing a particular lute-type for specific  
composers of French Baroque music, were purely iconographic, with no  
reference what so ever to the type of music. I regret, that at  
present, not only do lutists not explain why they choose a particular  
lute for a type, of music; you are lucky if they mention the maker of  
the lute, and certainly it is rare to see any discussion of string type.


Actually, my decision was already made, a few days ago; but that will  
not stop me continuing asking such a question. I have found strings  
that work well on my Renaissance lute (though constant questioning  
and researching, mainly on the web, but also by mail), this does not  
prevent me from continuing to be interested in the question of string  
choice. I hope it does not mean I am not relaxed, although an  
attitude of research rarely goes together with complete relaxation.


I am not of course criticizing the qualities of Burwell, when data is  
rare, how can we. However, what is said is quite sketchy, two pages  
on the topic, and yet it is massively quoted. How can it be  
otherwise, but I can't help feeling this is very similar to the  
question raised by the Cahiers 7 and Joel Dugot, on the conclusions  
we can draw about lutes of earlier periods, from those few that  
happen to exist in museums at present.


We do have to rely on them, in fact, what else can we do (that and  
iconography), but there is often a tendency to use this small  
quantity of data to support our need for standardization (see the 8c  
lute question for this tendence).


As you say, we can learn from our students, but only I think, if we  
remain permanent students ourselves (I stopped carrying a student  
card at the age of 46), but I am still on a permanent quest for  
understanding.
You can't switch off your research attitude, just because you have  
retired (as I have done, I mean retire). I hope that raising  
questions will never be confused with putting in question and lack of  
trust.


I have often been told by lutists that certain subjects should be  
left to lutemakers (I don't want to know what is inside, told me one  
fellow).  Personally, I am really intrigued, by seeing the inside of  
a lute, and I find those photos on of the J-barring on your site  
extremely interesting. Even for string choice, I have been told, why  
don't you just trust your lute maker. I am ready to trust, but like  
the young child, I will continue to ask questions. I am really  
interested.
I know how little I know in this area, and because of this, I rarely  
make statements, unless I feel sure I can back them up; but I have  
learnt that it is not finding the answers that makes a good student,  
it is asking the questions,
preferably the right questions, but failing that just questions,  
something may come out of it.

Enjoy your lute

regards
Anthony
















Le 12 déc. 07 à 21:48, Rob a écrit :


Anthony Hind said:

I am trying to make a question about what the "ideal" French  
Baroque

lute might be. <<<

Well, there probably never was or will be such a thing. I imagine most
players had a few instruments by different make

[BAROQUE-LUTE] biting my nails

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	My reply to you did not get through (because of photos screen shots  
I added). I was just saying that messags on Baroque questions are  
contantly sent to the lute list: swan neck, Weiss and nails,
and you yourself reply on that list with no problem. I admit I am  
becoming confused. When is a message appropriate only for one list,  
certainly not string types, even if my message was related to Swan  
necks.


The problem then will constantly be to make the right choice, not  
only of to what list, but to which persons. I have no list of  
members, so I don't know who belongs where.


People shift messages and leave the same title, it will be a problem  
for people searching for the topic later. I happen to do that quite  
often., so I know that is so.


I know I should say nothing about that if I confuse addresses, I  
don't think it is quite the same problem however.


It is always possible to indicate a topic has been shifted by adding  
a word, such as "nails" or whatever.


I am beginning to bite mine this evening, as I think how I am going  
to work out, where and to which persons, I will send my next mail.


I hope you did get my feliciations, that were sent on the very first  
day you mentionned the arrival. Indeed, I may have sent the message  
before you sent yours, as I don't know whether I am coming or going.

Well, actially going, as it really is late.
Anthony





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Le 13 déc. 07 à 00:06, Rob a écrit :

Sorry if I made you feel I was criticizing you for asking questions  
- far

from it! I have too many of them myself.



Eventually I just give up, and then
the answers often come to me. But by then I've forgotten the  
question! I

feel like the Winnie the Pooh of the lute...most players are more like
Eeyore, especially Dowland in his gloomy place!

Keep questioning. There are a few Owls you should watch out for,  
though.


Rob

www.rmguitar.info






Rob
	I now understand, I missed out on one essential piece of English  
culture.
I have never read Winnie the Pooh, or had it read to me, as far as I  
remember.


My father, on the other hand, was a permanent poser of riddles for  
which there
was never any logical solution. I am by inclination, and by  
profession, being
an experimental phonetician, drawn myself now to raising riddles, and  
on very rare occasions
actually solving them. I expect that makes me an Owl, rather than a  
Winnie, or an Eeyore, but I am wildly guessing.
Your piece of prose above, rings to me just like one of my father's  
unsolvable [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Indeed your words about the Bologna lutes, the 9 ribs, the free sound  
and the resonance of the open strings
in the D minor tuning, also rings like a riddle to me. Call it an  
interesting hypothesis, but that might be too fancy (probably an  
Owlish word?).


Did the fashion for the Bologna lutes correspond almost exactly with  
the discovery of this tuning?
If it did (and that is not certain), was it indeed chosen for the  
freedom of sound going so well with this tuning,
(does the age of the wood that sweetens the tone also lower the  
impedance, I suspect it might)?


Many lutists just seem to consider the elegant Bologna shape both  
from appearance and for posture, that determines their choice for  
this music, quoting the Charles Mouton portrait,
but Burwell, explicitly says these lutes were not chosen for their  
"figure".


Was the later partial return to larger more rounded multi ribbed  
lutes, in the later German Baroque era, simply because Malers had run- 
out, and German made 9 ribbed lutes a failure, so even
these multi ribbed "monsters" became acceptable, or was it again  
because the music had changed. French music was more Mid orientated.  
German Baroque seems to have more of a bass ground.


So perhaps, again it is the music which may have dictated the change.

Your "riddle" seemed one interesting way of looking at this issue,  
and as usual it gives birth to more riddles (no rhyming slang intended).


I will admit that some will not care why they have chosen, and just  
get on and play. Then you get strange remarks thrown at you, like,  
thereare the thinkers and the doers.

I see no problem with both.

Regards
Anthony

PS My computer seems to have learnt from my mistakes. Before when I  
wanted to type in Baroque, I had to type in the whole word, now the  
initial letter

seems to trigger the address.





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c!

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	I have just been speaking to Stephen, and he is willing to take  
photos of my lute in construction
just as for yours. I will find some way of showing them to the list.  
He very much likes the idea, in fact.

Best regards
Anthony


Le 13 déc. 07 à 10:36, Rob a écrit :

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Talk about riddles, where did that "feuille de voyage SNCF come from"  
I haven't taken a train since last year

Anthony


Le 13 déc. 07 à 14:57, Anthony Hind a écrit :



Le 13 déc. 07 à 00:06, Rob a écrit :

Sorry if I made you feel I was criticizing you for asking  
questions - far

from it! I have too many of them myself.



Eventually I just give up, and then
the answers often come to me. But by then I've forgotten the  
question! I
feel like the Winnie the Pooh of the lute...most players are more  
like

Eeyore, especially Dowland in his gloomy place!

Keep questioning. There are a few Owls you should watch out for,  
though.


Rob

www.rmguitar.info






Rob
	I now understand, I missed out on one essential piece of English  
culture.
I have never read Winnie the Pooh, or had it read to me, as far as  
I remember.


My father, on the other hand, was a permanent poser of riddles for  
which there
was never any logical solution. I am by inclination, and by  
profession, being
an experimental phonetician, drawn myself now to raising riddles,  
and on very rare occasions
actually solving them. I expect that makes me an Owl, rather than a  
Winnie, or an Eeyore, but I am wildly guessing.
Your piece of prose above, rings to me just like one of my father's  
unsolvable [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Indeed your words about the Bologna lutes, the 9 ribs, the free  
sound and the resonance of the open strings
in the D minor tuning, also rings like a riddle to me. Call it an  
interesting hypothesis, but that might be too fancy (probably an  
Owlish word?).


Did the fashion for the Bologna lutes correspond almost exactly  
with the discovery of this tuning?
If it did (and that is not certain), was it indeed chosen for the  
freedom of sound going so well with this tuning,
(does the age of the wood that sweetens the tone also lower the  
impedance, I suspect it might)?


Many lutists just seem to consider the elegant Bologna shape both  
from appearance and for posture, that determines their choice for  
this music, quoting the Charles Mouton portrait,
but Burwell, explicitly says these lutes were not chosen for their  
"figure".


Was the later partial return to larger more rounded multi ribbed  
lutes, in the later German Baroque era, simply because Malers had  
run-out, and German made 9 ribbed lutes a failure, so even
these multi ribbed "monsters" became acceptable, or was it again  
because the music had changed. French music was more Mid  
orientated. German Baroque seems to have more of a bass ground.


So perhaps, again it is the music which may have dictated the change.

Your "riddle" seemed one interesting way of looking at this issue,  
and as usual it gives birth to more riddles (no rhyming slang  
intended).


I will admit that some will not care why they have chosen, and just  
get on and play. Then you get strange remarks thrown at you, like,  
thereare the thinkers and the doers.

I see no problem with both.

Regards
Anthony

PS My computer seems to have learnt from my mistakes. Before when I  
wanted to type in Baroque, I had to type in the whole word, now the  
initial letter

seems to trigger the address.





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c!

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	Yes, indeed, I doubt whether there is a great deal of difference  
between 9 ribs and 11 ribs. Burwell, mentioned that 7 ribs, 9 ribs,  
or 11 ribs were best, I suppose, writing about D minor tuning.
I wonder whether 7 ribs did ever exist? Has any one tried to make  
one?  Stephen did say he could make me a 9 ribbed Warwick, but as I  
wanted an 11/10c, I wondered whether the 11 ribs
would not be a fair balance between the multi-ribbed lutes, often  
used as 10c lutes in "Vieil ton " and the Bologna lutes used for  
"Nouveau ton". You see, I have taken on board your "hypothesis".


As I think i told you, I bought Liz Kenny's Lawes songs, in which I  
believe she plays on a large multi-ribbed lute with a dark sound
http://tinyurl.com/ypnlbk, and it is superb for the sombre music of  
Cuthbert Hely, in the Vieil Ton. Miguel Serdoura, one of my  
neighbours here, tells me he heard her concert at Bâle,
  "THE JACOBEAN LUTE - personalities from the mysterious Cuthbert  
Hely to the murderous Jacques Gaultier and Shakespeare’s in-house  
composer, Robert Johnson. Devised for the
Basel Lute series, February 2007." He tells me it was superb, and I  
believe she used this multi-ribbed lute for that? Somebody told me I  
was mistaken, and in fact she was playing a Warwick.
I honestly doubt it, because of the dark sound (on the CD), but  
sometimes, it can be the acoustics. Does anyone know?


Perhaps later I will therefore consider a 10c Rauwolf (I can't think  
that I will swap very frequently between 10/11c), so I am keeping the  
10c Rauwolf as a future option. I think it would be excellent for late

Renaissance, early Transitional Baroque.

However, for now I am going to concentrate on the 11c qualities of  
the Warwick. Well, I should say in the near future, as Stephen will  
begin at the end of January.


	I am pleased to read that your 69 cm Maler is strung entirely in  
gut. that is certainly audible in the recording, and what a clear but  
warm sound with exceptional depth to it.
Even on my computer with special outboard speaker this is audible.  
The new photos and sound have now materialized (Lewis Carrol-like). I  
imagine this was well worth the wait for you.


Incidentally, Plum necks are superbly organic. I would have liked  
one,  having tried a Frei with such a neck by Stephen, but I had a  
few doubts about my ability to change frets without marking it.
For all other considerations, Plum is definitely superior, as Burwell  
rightly says.


Best regards
Anthony






Le 13 déc. 07 à 18:30, Rob a écrit :

Great. Did you settle for the Warwick Frei? That's a great lute to  
copy for

a ten or eleven course.

Rob

www.rmguitar.info



-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 13 December 2007 14:56
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new 11c!

Rob
I have just been speaking to Stephen, and he is willing to take
photos of my lute in construction
just as for yours. I will find some way of showing them to the list.
He very much likes the idea, in fact.
Best regards
Anthony


Le 13 déc. 07 à 10:36, Rob a écrit :

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Rob, and any one on the Baroque list,
All gut basses take a very log time to settle-in completely, and go  
on improving for a surprisingly long time.
However, when I said that to David v. O., he told me it could be my  
playing adapting to the strings, rather than the string developping.

I am sure that is partly so, and Ed described the change of technique  
needed for gut basses rather well, in a recent message, see here at
http://tinyurl.com/2dft7b

However, I haven't had metal wounds for over 30 years; although,  
admittedly, I did have a 20 years or so break in my playing (so I am  
"new-old stock", as they describe some vintage valves that have  
hardly been played in).

Again, when I changed recently from Pistoy to Venice on the 5th course,
the Venice took about 6 months to develop. I can't believe that my  
technique has had to adapt that much when going from a gut-tress to a  
gut-twine. I think it really IS the string settling in.

Having said that it does take a long time for someone used to  
wirewounds, simply to get use to the different sound and feel of gut  
basses, that you have to make sing rather than damp.

When you have played for a long time with a particular string type,  
the "tea or coffee syndrome" inevtiably develops. By that I mean,  
people do become used to one type of tea or coffee, and everything  
else tastes wrong to them, even when the tea or coffee, in question  
might be tea-bags and robusta.
Regards
Anthony


Le 14 dec. 07 =E0 11:49, Rob a ecrit :

> Thanks Theo and Anthony,
>
> Yes, these gimped strings are new to me, the Pistoys too. So it's  
> not just a
> case of getting used to 11 courses and new repertoire, but new  
> strings also.
> I will doubtless experiment a bit over time, but gut basses are  
> expensive!
> I'd love to hear your Andy Rutherford 11c, Theo, and Anthony's  
> Gottlieb when
> it arrives. Mary Burwell said the French fashion was for a single 11th
> course - I might try that with a thicker fundamental.
>
> I'm probably finished recording for the moment, but might take you  
> up on the
> idea of recording the same piece in a couple of months, just to see  
> what
> differences there are.
>
> Rob
>
> www.rmguitar.info
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 14 December 2007 10:41
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c
>
> Hi Rob,
> Thanks for the link, very nice!
> From my own experience, I picked up my Andy Rutherford 11 course  
> about a 2
> months ago, all gut, with gimped basses
> from Larson.
> The basses developed quite dramatically in the first few month-  
> especially
> after working on them vigorously for some time.
> I think it is a combination of the string developing as well as the
> soundboard.
> My suspicion is that in about a month or two, those basses of yours  
> are
> going to be quite different.
> It would be fun to record the same piece again at that time to see  
> what
> happens!
> Cheers,
> Theo
>
>
> From: Rob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:19:14 -
> To: 
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] new sound file for 11c
>
> I've made an mp3 of the Chaconne in Am by de Visee with my right  
> hand little
> finger resting on the bridge. This technique is depicted in a  
> number of
> paintings and seems to work well with all-gut strings. I once tried  
> it on a
> lute strung in nylon and it sounded quite poor. I think it works  
> well with
> gut, so might try to adopt it as my 11c technique. On the other  
> hand (not
> literally) the famous painting/engraving of Mouton has his hand a  
> little
> further from the bridge with little finger on the sound board, but  
> still
> nowhere near the rose.
>
>
>
> The gimped strings seem to have settled.
>
>
>
> Here it is: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm - scroll to the  
> bottom of the
> page.
>
>
>
> Man, I love this lute! Please excuse all this sudden enthusiasm!
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> www.rmguitar.info
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it.
Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit :




it is very good to see that you are

finally making your  11c Malers...also that they are plastic free. <<<

Plastic?!

Rob






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
  Yes, I was being a little facetious about synthetics, but I do  
think there can be a plasticky sound to some strings. As i said once  
before, the effect is accumulative both for gut and for synthetics,  
because of sympathetic resonances.


Here in France, I can assure you that lutes strung in gut by the lute  
maker are a rarity, in England it is clearly quite different.


As I remarked in a previous messaeg, the material used as insulation  
in capacitors, it is also claimed, can be heard in play back systems:  
different sorts of plastics, or paper. The more of the same, the more  
the particular characteristic is audible.


The figured ash back to your lute is particularly beautiful, as I  
said previously We all congratulated, you,  the happy owner, but we  
should also have congratulated Martin. That was what I was trying to  
do, as I happen to know this is part of a long project

Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 16:46, Rob a écrit :


By plastic you meant nylon strings, I suppose. I thought for a  
moment you

were referring to the body!

Rob

www.rmguitar.info


-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 14 December 2007 15:18
To: Baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: new sound file for 11c

Rob
How could it have meant anything else?

Small point of "grammar"? I suppose I should have said "plastics" as
opposed to "plastic".

A friend who has recently begun to move from synthetics to gut, told
me he realized that the presence of even a small ammount of gut frees
up the sound.  Just as you suggested for  the small number of ribs .

This gives me an idea that lute makers will probably not like. How
about making a lute in an acoustically predictable material (ie not
wood), and then experimenting with different numbers of ribs to see
what the effect really is?
The problem, is that when you compare, even two almost  identical
lutes, the wood, the glue, the varnish are all variables that confuse
the results.

I think I remember a lute maker on the list, once said he had
experimented with papier maché and got quite good results, but there
again, papier maché is not quite predictable enough.
  Oups, am I being Owlish, again …
Best Regards
Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:58, Anthony Hind a écrit :



Plastic Ukele string free, oups sorry, no really, I don't mean it.
Anthony

Le 14 déc. 07 à 15:53, Rob a écrit :






it is very good to see that you are


finally making your  11c Malers...also that they are plastic free.
<<<

Plastic?!

Rob







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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bailes

[Anthony Hind]

Nigel
	I was told yesterday that it is not available in France, so it can't  
be.
Unfortunately, it was in the middle of a concert and I couldn't get  
the person to write down any details.
He did tell me there was another fairly recent recording that was  
available, but that was very poorly recorded
by a more well known company. He said this at present was only  
available in Germany.

Unless of course one of those two records are very recent imports.
Is anyone on the list based in Germany?
Anthony

Le 15 déc. 07 à 14:52, Nigel Solomon a écrit :


Dear Anthony,

there are 2 Bailes cds on amazon.fr: "old Gaultier Nightingall" and  
"le Resveur". Could it be either of those?


Nigel





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Bailes 2 headed

[Anthony Hind]

Thanks Nigel
	I think you are right. I have never heard of Ramée organization  
(which doesn't mean much, I mean my not knowing about it), but the  
person did say it was a little known company.

I will order it right away.
Did you give the details to the list?
Thanks again, happy end to your year, and beginning to the next
Anthony


Le 15 déc. 07 à 15:18, Nigel Solomon a écrit :


I'm pretty sure it's the Old gaultier CD. Have a look on the  
website: http://www.ramee.org/
You'll see a photo of Bailes with a double-headed lute. The CD was  
released earlier this month.


Nigel






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Rob+Charles=Maler(NewO ldFrei)

[Anthony Hind]

Dear All
Mimmo Peruffo has just sent me these superb photos of a completely  
unrestored 11c  'Hans Frei  Bologna; Baroqued Matthias Fur/Rom 1683,  
71.20 cms vibrating length photographed in January 2005, at the  
Kremsmunster: Instrumentenmuseum. Mimmo says, "It is clear that this  
was an original Hans Frei of the renaissance age made d minor in the  
1683 year. It is so fantastic to have another confirmation of what  
Burwell others say about the use of the old Bolognese lutes to  
rebuilt as 11c lutes", MP.

http://tinyurl.com/2gutgg
http://tinyurl.com/2cdbof

MP says the Bridge holes are  1.80 mm for the 11th hole, 1.55 mm only  
for the 10th. He says it sounded fantastic to him.

He sends it because of my reference to the Mouton lute with the lace  
around the sound board (this process can clearly be seen on the  
Kremsmunster Frei lute too); but also because the question has been  
raised about the rh. little finger position. The marks are very clear  
to see, near and even perhaps on the bridge. Mimmo also  thinks this  
has to prove the thumb was surely quite out for the player of this  
instrument.

These are his personal photos, but he authorizes me to show them to  
you, but of course any reference to them, implies quoting him.

Personally, I feel privileged to see such photos, and I heartily  
thank Mimmo for allowing us  to view them, and have a little more  
insight into his research procedures.
As I am ordering an 11c Frei lute, and the string length is a little  
less, but nevertheless quite long, I am relieved to see such string  
lengths were entirely authentic.

Regards
Anthony

PS This now means that the proportion of extant Freis to Maler  
Bologna lutes that I know about has slightly changed  (3 Freis to 5  
Malers), but there are now more 11 ribbed models than 9 ribbed among  
these (three Frei plus two Maler with 11 ribs, and three Malers with  
9 ribs, but to these last you can add the related  9 ribbed Laux  
Bosh, so it is about equal; but I know of no 7 ribbed  Burwell lute,  
we may still be surprised.)

PPS, I feel a little mean not showing these photos to the whole list  
(Lute), but they are Baroque.




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Dear all,

There are new photos of unrestored lutes on Mimmo Peruffo's site at

http://www.aquilacorde.com/lutes.htm

MP says "On a  modern lute completely strung with  gut at 3.0 Kg  
tension per string (1-3 courses + octaves plain gut; 4-5 courses  
Venices; 6-11 basses loaded  gut strings)  the best performance was  
achivied when playing closer to the bridge and with the thumb out; as  
suggested by old  lute treatises, and some paintings "
The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the  
rh position that Rob has also adopted;
Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3

Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq

Detail of Charles on MP's site:

http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg

But more conclusive are actual finger marks on the lute's belly in  
these unrestored lutes.

"the finger- marks that are on some original  d- minor 11 course  
lutes (that had never been restored) of the Kremsm=C31/4nster (Austria):"

There are now four photos of unrestored lutes on Mimmo Peruffo's  
site. They all show the little finger of the rh, near the bridge,  
which implies thumb out.

The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG

The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/ 
R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG

The third has no label
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG

The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in  
Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG

I have to say that I have been concentrating on Renaissance technique  
these last few years, so I rather wish this thumb out technique was  
not so clearly necessary for 11c  Baroque.
I always beieved there were only two extant Frei lutes, so this comes  
as a surprise. We can note the lace surrounding the soundboard, as on  
Mouton's lute.

Regards
Anthony
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit :
Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot  
does not
show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less,  
Mouton's
technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that  
photo. I say
more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is  
quite fluid
and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music.  
When that
photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and  
hadn't really
played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a  
dud

cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow!


	Rob, we can all see that (well not the dud cheque), We are aware  
that you are posing for the camera, holding the new arrival, vaguely  
in a somewhat more relaxed Mouton posture; but I suppose that Charles  
was also posing for the painter.
Although, you might have played with your lute for 40 mins and  
Charles played his for 40 years, that was not really the point; both  
paintings and photos of posing musicians would not be the ideal proof  
of a playing position, unless they were actually playing, which is  
not the case for either of you.


Your finger is a little forward, in relation to Charles', but I only  
really added your photo, because I am hoping every one will agree  
with me that Mouton's lute is indeed a Maler, or even a Desmoulins  
baroqued Maler. No I know that can't be proved either way. I am not  
really taking all that much more seriously than we can see you are.


However, the finger marks on the unrestored lutes are highly  
significant evidence, showing that if you do indeed want to play with  
the little finger nearer the bridge, then you are following the  
pattern of at least four other "historic" lute players, particularly,  
as you are using gut strings, as obviouly they had no choice but to  
do (although theirs might have been loaded). Marks on the lute belly,  
are much more significant than paintings, or indeed photos, unless  
the player is performing during the photo.


I would make some duff pun about Tcheque (as they call it in France)  
Malers and dudd cheques, but fortunately for all, none come to mind,  
at this time in the evening.


We will all here,be looking forward to hearing you play de Visee in  
Paris, perhaps on this lute, and possibly with an even better little  
finger position (I will be the bearded one in the front row, with a  
big grin, perhaps invisble under my beard).
Although, I would be quite happy if I could play my lute as you do  
after holding it for only few minutes.


Regards
Anthony

PS Just the knowledge that yet another Frei exists (perhaps all of  
you already knew that, but I didn't), pleases me; and the French  
Maler was only disovered very recently too. Wolfgang Emmerich  
analysed a fairly recently discovered Railich in Prague, I think, and  
S. Lippi also discovered an analysed a Railich in Italy. Perhaps,  
more remain to be discovered.
However, for me personally, the idea that one can still make  
discoveries about finger marks on lute bellies, which haven't been  
studied before, as MP  has done, is, if anything, even more  
interesting, pushing at the barriers of our  knowledge of historic  
techniques.


I haven't yet obtained the new lute record by Anthony Bailes on two- 
headed lute, but i understand that is also the result of pioneering  
musical analysis, that has allowed him to open up a new-old musical  
repertoire. I have to admit in taking some joy at the idea of all  
that. As I think of this a gleeful smile appears on my face, too.



Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:24, Rob a écrit :

Please be careful, Anthony. The photo of me grinning like an idiot  
does not
show me playing a la Mouton. I have now adopted, more or less,  
Mouton's
technique which is closer to the bridge than I am using in that  
photo. I say
more or less, because, of course, the position is not fixed, is  
quite fluid
and allied to the subtle dynamic and tonal nuances of the music.  
When that
photo was taken I had only seen the lute for a few minutes and  
hadn't really

played anything. I was grinning because Martin had just accepted a dud
cheque, the value of which he will discover tomorrow!

Rob

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The example he chooses is Charles Mouton, so we can compare with the
rh position that Rob has also adopted;
Rob: http://tinyurl.com/2dlsa3

Charles: http://tinyurl.com/yvlvvq





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Le 16 déc. 07 à 21:55, Robert Barto a écrit :


Anthony,

Thank you very much for these pictures.

What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the  
bridge
and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1  
and 3 are

relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the bridge or
behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments.

So what does this tell us?

Robert



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Robert
	You must really thank Mimmo Peruffo, for taking the photos. He  
fortunately sent me the one of the Frei with the lace around it  
because I had mentioned the lace around the Charles Mouton lute, in  
another thread. As I found this extremely interesting, both for the  
hand position, but also because I didn't know of that Frei lute, of  
course I communicated with him about it, and he told me that he was  
going to place three more of these photos on his site.
As the questioned raised here was rh position, and I wasn't sure  
everyone would see Mimmo's page (he is constantly updating it with  
new research), I thought I should send them to the list, as they  
clearly are highly significant.


	I would not consider myself expert enough to answer your questions,  
which I realize you are no doubt asking to yourself, rather than  
expecting an immediate reply.


However, these marks would seem to imply, as you are suggesting, some  
variation in playing position (although nevertheless towards the  
bridge area, if not on it).
Now, if we were looking at marks made by modern players, we could  
suppose that this might be due to variation in string types, or  
tensions. However, was there sufficient variation in string type (or  
string tension or tuning) at the time to account for such a variation?
Did all players use loaded bass strings, or perhaps some use ropes,  
of some type?
I have heard players who use relatively low tension stringing say  
that they play much closer to the bridge.


Study of the bridge holes, as no doubt MP is doing (or has done),  
might possibly answer  that sort of question.


Perhaps, if these lutes were always played by the same person (can we  
be sure of that?), we could suppose that individual hand size or  
stretch might explain this. Does such variation occur for modern  
players who adopt the near the bridge position?


One might also suppose that players of the period were searching for  
the best position for their touch, strings, and lute. They would not  
be just trying to adopt an "ideal" authentic or historically correct  
earlier position, which possibly can lead to more standardization  
than ever existed previously.


 Presumably, unless there was a strict universal position imposed by  
a method (such as perhaps, at one time a "Segovia rh finger position"  
on the guitar) some variation, both regional, and individual could  
develop.


Do you think the "on the bridge position" could be another variation  
that just does not happen to occur in these four lutes, or could it  
be that the lutist posing found it instinctively more comfortable to  
put his finger on the bridge (perhaps to avoid marking the  
soundboard, if the pose was very long)?
These are just a few thoughts that spring to mind, but perhaps MP has  
read your message, if so he can certainly put forward more informed  
explanations than I can.

Anthony

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Robert
I looked at the photos  again, and noticed another variation apart  
from the one you mentionned which was as follows:

> "Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are  
> relatively close):
> 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG
> 3) The third has no label
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG
>
> 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge :
>
> 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/
> R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/  
> zuegericht'
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG
>
> 4) The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in
> Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG
>
>  But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many  
> portraits and instruments." RB


First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to  
consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely  
out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other  
explanations seem possible.

  However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 & 4) seem to  
have a very precise fixed finger position:

3) The third has no label
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG

4) The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in
Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG

This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained  
by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed;
while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable  
little finger position:

1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG

2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/
R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/ zuegericht'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG

This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on  
the soundboard, the finger not fixed.

However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only  
one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1 & 2 have  
been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only one?
The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could  
indicate that it WAS the same player.

If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close  
to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player  
adapting to string type or tension or because of hand size, or  
perhaps thumb out (1 & 3), not so far out (2 & 4); however, the fixed  
finger (3 & 4), moveable finger (1&2) difference, can't be given such  
an explanation, and must surely imply two different playing techniques.

The problem is that the little finger swivel, or glide techniques do  
not correspond to the "close to the bridge less close to the bridge  
position".
It would have been easier to fathom had there been a coincidence  
between the two. Then we would clearly have two globally different  
techniques.
Anthony


Le 16 dec. 07 =E0 21:55, Robert Barto a ecrit :

> Anthony,
>
> Thank you very much for these pictures.
>
> What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the  
> bridge
> and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1  
> and 3 are
> relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the bridge or
> behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments.
>
> So what does this tell us?
>
> Robert
>


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

nt is useful or  
> beautiful or
> informative just because it is old.
> I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top  
> players
> disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime
> of performances and travel across Europe.
>
> I think going further than these =8Ctypes' of general statements,  
> based solely
> on pics (and not the actual thicknesses of the worn out areas
> on the soundboard) is just too conjectural.
> Just my 2 cents of course, and positively meant!
> Cheers,
> Theo
>
>
>
> From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:08:34 +0100
> To: Robert Barto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?
>
> Robert
>  I looked at the photos  again, and noticed another variation apart
> from the one you mentionned which was as follows:
>
>> "Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are
>> relatively close):
>> 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
>> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG
>> 3) The third has no label
>> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG
>>
>> 2 and 4 really not close to the bridge :
>>
>> 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/
>> R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/
>> zuegericht'
>> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG
>>
>> 4) The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in
>> Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
>> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG
>>
>>  But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many
>> portraits and instruments." RB
>
>
> First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to
> consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely
> out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other
> explanations seem possible.
>
>   However, what surprises me, is that the last two (3 & 4) seem to
> have a very precise fixed finger position:
>
> 3) The third has no label
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG
>
> 4) The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in
> Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG
>
> This would seem to imply that any sound variation would be obtained
> by swivelling the hand, but keeping the little finger firmly placed;
> while the first two show a longish patch showing a more variable
> little finger position:
>
> 1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG
>
> 2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/
> R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/  
> zuegericht'
> http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG
>
> This could show that sound variation was obtained by a movement on
> the soundboard, the finger not fixed.
>
> However, this interpretation implies that the lute was played by only
> one person. Can we be sure about that? Might the lutes 1 & 2 have
> been played by more than one person, but the lutes 3 and 4 by only  
> one?
> The fact that there is no break in the moveable position could
> indicate that it WAS the same player.
>
> If the two positions: close to the bridge (1 and 3), but not so close
> to the bridge (2 and 4), could perhaps be explained by a player
> adapting to string type or tension or because of hand size, or
> perhaps thumb out (1 & 3), not so far out (2 & 4); however, the fixed
> finger (3 & 4), moveable finger (1&2) difference, can't be given such
> an explanation, and must surely imply two different playing  
> techniques.
>
> The problem is that the little finger swivel, or glide techniques do
> not correspond to the "close to the bridge less close to the bridge
> position".
> It would have been easier to fathom had there been a coincidence
> between the two. Then we would clearly have two globally different
> techniques.
> Anthony
>
>
> Le 16 dec. 07 =E0 21:55, Robert Barto a ecrit :
>
>> Anthony,
>>
>> Thank you very much for these pictures.
>>
>> What's actually interesting about them is how two are close to the
>> bridge
>> and two are not. Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1
>> and 3 are
>> relatively close, 2 and 4 really not.) But no sign of on the  
>> bridge or
>> behind as one sees on many portraits and instruments.
>>
>> So what does this tell us?
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> --


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Theo and Rob
	A thought came to me, that a playable lute, even in a museum does  
get played by modern lutists, who might leave their traces on the  
lute. I noticed that Rob played a number of instruments at the  
EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY COLLECTION OF HISTORIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.  
Although, did you play them long enough to leave such a trace, Rob?
There is a CD of Rob's recordings, mainly on guitare, but also  
Dowland on the Buchenberg.


Here Rob is playing on the Matheus Buchenberg/ Rome/early 17th century

Rob McKillop playing
* Shoes Rare and Good in All - Lilt Ladie An Gordoun (from the  
Straloch MS, NLS Adv.MS.5.2.18 c 1627-29) [ Real video ]

Click on http://tinyurl.com/yunqyg
Web page details at
http://tinyurl.com/2yw6tr
The indications are that "The sound-board is stained with finger  
grease along the lower side of the rose and at the upper end of the  
upper side of the rose, indicating the right hand playing position  
most often used."
Rob obviously had a close look at this, so would you say this was  
reasonably clear, Rob? I imagine you would have tried to put your  
hand, as close as possible to that original position?
Those old lutes have quite a different tone from modern instruments,  
the age of the wood no doubt.

Regards
Anthony

Le 17 déc. 07 à 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit :


Hello Anthony et al,
I am very interested in this topic that is presently being  
discussed, but it

reminds me a lot
of the so-called =8Ccanals' on  Mars that everyone insisted they  
saw, even

though there was nothing there.
Looking at the pictures here coldly and without any prejudice one   
way or

another, I see nothing of the
clarity in the points you mention.

In fact all have vast areas of wear for various distances from the  
bridge,

not particularized to just one small area.
The newly discovered lute you show has so many scrapings along the
soundboard from repairs and bridge
adjustments that I could never say from the pictures anything about  
what is

going on there.

It is highly laudable to discuss these issues, please don't get me  
wrong.

But I think we are going too far in
assumptions.

For me anyway, much more evidence comes from a more general  
standpoint:
Playing nearer the bridge with the 11 course instruments: yes-  
that's clear

in a general way by the pictorial evidence,
and I think all using gut will agree to that unequivocally in terms  
of the

kind of sound one can produce.
However it only works when you don't need/require the ring finger.
Once the ring finger is needed for arpeggios or special situations,  
the

pinky near the bridge placement
simply doesn't work. Even then, however, just moving a little bit  
away from
the bridge is enough for a useful sound from the ring finger (for  
me: 1-2

cm).
And in later music there are enough examples where you have to- or  
otherwise

stated, where the top players probably just did it anyway.
As devil's advocate: We also have no idea if these lutes could have  
been
owned by rank amateurs, who played three or four ditties on them  
constantly,
or had poor techniques. Not every old instrument is useful or  
beautiful or

informative just because it is old.
I often suspect that the very best instruments, played by the top  
players

disappeared first- played to shreds during their lifetime
of performances and travel across Europe.

I think going further than these =8Ctypes' of general statements,  
based solely

on pics (and not the actual thicknesses of the worn out areas
on the soundboard) is just too conjectural.
Just my 2 cents of course, and positively meant!
Cheers,
Theo



From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:08:34 +0100
To: Robert Barto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

Robert
 I looked at the photos  again, and noticed another variation apart
from the one you mentionned which was as follows:


"Only the first is really close to the bridge. (1 and 3 are
relatively close):
1) The first is the Hans Frei in Bologna; Matthias Fux/R=C3=B6m 1683'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster1.JPG
3) The third has no label
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster3.JPG

2 and 4 really not close to the bridge :

2) The second is a 'Magno dieffopruchar a venetia/1604 Matthias Fux/
R=C3=B6m.  Kays. May- /  Hoff-Lautenmacher in Wien 1685/
zuegericht'
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster2.JPG

4) The fourth is  'Jakob Wei=CE'/Lauthen-und Gei-/17 genmacher in
Saltzburg'. 13 course lute with broken bass rider
http://www.aquilacorde.com/kremsmuenster4.JPG

 But no sign of on the bridge or behind as one sees on many
portraits and instruments." RB



First, I wonder whether this variation above is sufficient to
consider it as relating to two different techniques: thumb completely
out, thumb not completely out (but perhaps not in). other
explanations seem possible

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

[Anthony Hind]

Oups, sorry Rob,

	it just came back to my mind, when Theo, said you couldn't trust the  
marks on a lute in a museum. I have sort of been trained to store  
apparently completely unrelated data in my mind for future  
association, at a later date. Theo's message just suddenly triggered  
this memory.


I spotted yourself with the Buchenberg when I was searching for the  
Van Raalte Brownsea Island lutes. I saw that some of them had ended  
up in Edinburgh.
Initially, I thought the Buchenberg was one of them and wrote to  
Professor Arnold Myers, Director of the museum, who told me this  
wasn't in fact the case.


However, I don't think anyone expects you to get a good sound out of  
such a lute, unless you can control the stringing, etc. We listen  
just to have an idea of how they sound, not how you play.
I would say that most of the recordings done on lutes in museums are  
interesting, but not ideal. I am thinking of the Hoppy recordings on  
the 1644 Railich (Denis Gaultier), and his recording for Reflexe of  
Weiss on the Widhalm.
Also one of Anthony Bailes' recordings of late German Baroque on  
reflexe. I imagine they could control the stringing, and yet the  
sound is still problematic in the mid.
However, Mimmo Peruffo told me the Frei pictured on the recent  
message was wonderful, but perhaps he completely restrung it.


There are a few music museums where the instruments are kept in good  
playing condition such as Finchcocks (harpsichords and forte pianos)


I know that there are also demonstrations, or rather were  
demonstrations at the Musée de la musique of some of the lutes. I  
attended a concert of gambists, there (Christophe Coin), where they  
played on original instruments, and when at the end they picked up  
their own gambas, it was a relief. Yet hearing the original  
instruments was still interesting.


The Rauwolf, obviously does not have quite the same heavyish sound as  
the Buchenberg, having been completely restored, but there is some  
element in common, which must be the age of the wood, I imagine.
On the English lute society pages,they mention a sound approaching  
that of the oboe.


Sorry you don't remember anything about the finger marks, and in fact  
that you would rather forget, as I imagined it would be a great  
moment to get your hands on an such old lute, and guitars.
I am obviously too romantic. i didn't think of the cold and perhaps  
the dust.

Regards
Anthony



Le 17 déc. 07 à 13:59, Rob a écrit :


Oh dear, I hoped no-one would spot that on the net! Thanks Anthony! Oh
well... The piece is the most boring ever - I've no idea why I  
thought it
suitable! The university asked me to record a CD of a small  
selection of
their instruments. No repairs were made to the instruments, they  
were just
strung up, and I only got a couple of hours to get used to the  
instruments.
The sound recording was also very poor. The string spacing on the  
Buchenberg
was very comfortable, but the strings were more or less just lying  
on the
frets. I couldn't play the first course without getting that zing.  
Horrible.


Don't buy the CD!

It was about ten years ago, when I had hair! I've no idea about
little-finger marks on the soundboard. I just remember being cold and
getting a horrible sound. Never thought I'd see that again!

Rob

www.rmguitar.info


-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 17 December 2007 12:40
To: T. Diehl-Peshkur; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: RH on the bridge?

Theo and Rob
A thought came to me, that a playable lute, even in a museum does
get played by modern lutists, who might leave their traces on the
lute. I noticed that Rob played a number of instruments at the
EDINBURGH UNIVERSITY COLLECTION OF HISTORIC MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.
Although, did you play them long enough to leave such a trace, Rob?
There is a CD of Rob's recordings, mainly on guitare, but also
Dowland on the Buchenberg.

Here Rob is playing on the Matheus Buchenberg/ Rome/early 17th century

Rob McKillop playing
 * Shoes Rare and Good in All - Lilt Ladie An Gordoun (from the
Straloch MS, NLS Adv.MS.5.2.18 c 1627-29) [ Real video ]
Click on http://tinyurl.com/yunqyg
Web page details at
http://tinyurl.com/2yw6tr
The indications are that "The sound-board is stained with finger
grease along the lower side of the rose and at the upper end of the
upper side of the rose, indicating the right hand playing position
most often used."
Rob obviously had a close look at this, so would you say this was
reasonably clear, Rob? I imagine you would have tried to put your
hand, as close as possible to that original position?
Those old lutes have quite a different tone from modern instruments,
the age of the wood no doubt.
Regards
Anthony

Le 17 déc. 07 à 12:35, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit :


Hello Anthony et al,
I am very interested 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: List confusion

[Anthony Hind]

Dear all
	Recently, I  sent a message including photos of three baroqued  
Renaissance lutes, photographed by Mimmo Peruffo. I considered that  
the main interest was for the Baroque list, as the photos show the  
finger marks of Baroque players.
However, these are renaissance lutes, so surely of interest to the  
Renaissance list. There are very few Renaissance tenor and bass lutes  
that have not been Baroqued. I therefore had to decide to send the  
message to both.
Many renaissance lutists would also be in the audience of a good  
Baroque lute concert, and therefore most questions that relate to  
performance of the Baroque lute should interest them. The person who  
gets the most out of such concerts will surely be the person who  
understands most about performing such music.
I have constantly found it difficult to decide who I should exclude  
from such a message.

Anthony


Le 17 déc. 07 à 13:56, Martin Eastwell a écrit :


Dear All

At the moment, the discussion "Re: RH on the bridge" is split  
across the
main lute list and the baroque lute list. This happens all the  
time, and is
very confusing for most of us! Would we not be better off with a  
single

list?


As so often happens, the topic we are discussing strays from pre  
Dowland to
the 18th Century. When does Baroque begin anyway?! Medieval is  
easier-we all

know that the Middle Ages stopped when lutenists gave up the plectrum!


An alternative would be for the little bit of information on  
subscribing
added to the end of each message, to also contain guidelines on  
posting to

the correct list.


Best wishes

Martin




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] tuner

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Baroque persons
	George Bryan, just mentionned the existance of a true strobe tuner  
at a very reasonable price that can be seen here:

"Turbo Tuner" ST-122 by Sonic Research, Inc,
(www.sonic-research.com). It is a "strobe-type) with a ring of LED's
that simulate the rotation of a true strobe, cost $130



I think that it could also interest people on this list. I am  
assuming some are not inscribed on the other list, so I am list  
crossing, and hope no one minds.


This tuner does sound interesting. It appears to be completely  
prorammable, up to 14 presets? I had a look at the site Gearge  
mentions, and it also looks much smaller than the Petersen, which  
would be a great advantage.
I presume there is a mic in? When you say it will probably go lower  
than a=415, I see on the web page "The A4 reference pitch may be set  
to any frequency between 220.0 Hz and 880.0 Hz in .1 Hz increments.  
(Default is 440.0 Hz)." It also says ; " Tune In Any Temperament,  
The ST-122 uses the equal temperament by default, and the user may  
define up to 14 different 12 note temperaments. The Just and  
Pythagorean temperaments are already programmed into the unit at the  
factory.
It certainly sounds very reasonably priced. Does anyone else know  
this tuner?


Anthony



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Gallot

[Anthony Hind]

Theo
According to Joel Dugot, Musique Fran=C3=A7aise pour luth au XVII 
si=C3=A8cle  
SFL, 1987) there seem to be two Gallots who published tablatures, Le  
Vieux Gallot, whose tablatures seem to be in the Leipzig museum, the  
only ones signed -<> (but that is not always a proof, see  
the problem with associating tablatures to the various Gaultiers,  
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/indices/Gautier.html by John H  
Robinson);
and Jacques Gallot (possibly his nephew, also called "le jeune"), who  
was the author of "Pi=C3=A8ces de luth" published after 1684 (see  
introduction to this, facsimile, published by Minkoff, Geneva, 1978).

However, here at http://www.musicologie.org/Biographies/g/ 
gallot_jacques.html, there is no such distinction made, but you can  
see that the Leipzig texts are the only ones signed -<>.

  Gallot Jacques
a Euro ! vers 1690

a Euro ! Paris, vers 1690. Luthiste et compositeur, fr=C3=A8re d'Alexandre  
Gallot =C3=A9galement musicien. On le conna=C3=AEt sous le noms de -<>. Il est un =C3=A9l=C3=A8ve d'Ennemond Gaultier. Il a  
publi=C3=A9 =C3! Paris des Pi=C3=A8ces de luth compos=C3=A9es sur differens 
modes*
introduites par un bref trait=C3=A9 sur l'instrument. Les pi=C3=A8ces sont  
organis=C3=A9es par tonalit=C3=A9 et des menuets sont interpol=C3=A9s. Ses  
compositions comprennent des portraits musicaux : La Fontange, La  
Montespan etc. et des tombeaux (Turenne, Cond=C3=A9, Madame).
Le manuscrit II 614, Musikbibliothek Leipzig, contient des pi=C3=A8ces  
sign=C3=A9es -<>. On trouve quelques pi=C3=A8ces sign=C3=A9es  
-<> dans une s=C3=A9rie d'autres manuscrits : Biblioth=C3=A8que  
nationale de France ; Biblioth=C3=A8que municipale de Besan=C3=A7on ; Bodleian  
Library Oxford ; Carl Dolmetsch Library, Haslemere ;  
Benediktinerstift, G=C3=B6ttweig (Autriche) ; Benediktinerstift  
Kremsm=C31/4nster (Autriche) ; Nationalbibliothek, Wien (Autriche) ;  
Hudebn=C3=AD odd=C4=9Bnlun=C3=AD Universitn=C3=AD knihovny, Praha 
(Biblioth=C3=A8que de  
l'Universit=C3=A9, d=C3=A9partement de la musique) ; L=C3=A4roverksbiblioteket, 
 
Kalmar (Su=C3=A8de).

*  Pieces de Luth Composees sur differens Modes par J. G. Auec les  
folies d'Espagnes Enrichies de plusieurs beaux couplets dediees a  
Mgn. le Comte Destree Viceadmiral de France (Paris sans date)
Regards
Anthony

Le 27 d=C3=A9c. 07 =C3! 10:54, T. Diehl-Peshkur a =C3=A9crit :

> For the experts amongst us:
> Does anyone know if the music of Jacques de Gallot is completely  
> contained
> by the Leipzig MS, together with the Milleran and Barbe MSS?
> As far as I can see these sources should cover all or almost all of  
> his
> works, but I am not sure if that is really the case...
> Thanks in advance,
> Theo
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore!

[Anthony Hind]

Le 14 janv. 08 à 18:12, Rob a écrit :



Dear Anthony,

I think you'll find the bass register below the 7th course more
problematical than the treble. Not only the sound quality of the  
thick-gut
fundamentals, gimped or otherwise, but also the intonation compared  
to the

octave neighbours.




Dear Rob and all
	I would first like to thank those who sent me messages of support,  
encouraging  me to use gut on my new 11c lute. There is definitely a  
sort of friendly "brotherhood" of gut users, and I  think that is  
valuable.


However, I would also like to thank Rob for honestly keeping us  
informed on his progress and difficulties with gut. I think there can  
be difficulties, and if we don't recognize what they are, we are not  
likely to find satisfactory compromises.
Obviously, an amateur may not have exactly the same problems as a  
professional; a professional may keep in tune better, but an amateur  
can retune whenever he feels like it. Yet, I don't think keeping in  
tune is the real problem that Rob is pointing out. "The sound quality  
of the thick-gut fundamentals, gimped or otherwise", that you are not  
happy with, could, also, I think be controlled with perseverance, as  
suggested by Ed on another posting; and I have to say that gut basses  
often take as much as 6 months to thin-out slightly and really  
stabilize, gaining a little in high frequency presence. I would not  
want to judge them within a couple of months.


The really serious problem that Rob is pointing to, seems to me, to  
be the question of the "intonation" of the basses compared to the  
octave neighbours, and this is simply, I believe, a question of the  
difference in string diameter.


The only way round this "intonation" problem, with pure gut, would be  
to have very long strings (presumably longer than 69, as much as 74)  
or very low tension strings, but with a very full lute bowl to  
reinforce the bass (a Burkholtzer, for example, as used by Satoh, and  
proned by Ed.). Although, a lute with shortish string lengths (65-67)  
would be much easier to play.


Satoh appears to have found quite a good compromise. Unless I am  
mistaken, he appears to have adopted the Dutch/English/French? 12c  
Lute, to partly get round this problem. On this, the 12c and 11c, on  
the second neck, are quite long, while the other strings are somewhat  
shorter, thus allowing the player more agility; and at the same time,  
the bass is reinforced by the large bowl size of the Burkholtzer lute.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert/ 
PlayingRT.jpg


Although, the Burkholtzer, recorded on the Larson site is a 13 c  
lute, strung in Gamut gut perhaps with gimped, we can hear that it  
has a rounder more bass orientated sound the 11c Hans Frei, now in  
the Wein Kunsthistorisches Museum, no. C34 :

  Listen first the 13 c Burkholtzer:
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/berkholtzer/ 
berkholtzer_baroque_lute_sarabande.wma

Second the on the Frei C34 :
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/frei/frei%20baroque%20lute.wma

If I am right about Satoh's choice, it is quite clever, as the  
Burkholtzer, in its two-headed form, is recognized (thanks, possibly,  
to Jacques Gaultier) as a lute for the early new tunings in France  
and then in England and Holland and  some (possibly, most) two headed  
lutes were indeed multi-ribbed*, as shown by the Mest lute.

http://lib-art.com/art.php?id=1140
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/pictures.htm/mestb.jpg
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/nov99/month.htm

In its 13c or 11 c form, on the other hand, it would probably be seen  
as rather too late for French Baroque music. In its two headed form,  
it seems an acceptable musical compromise for "Style Brisé" (but  
perhaps I am wrong and Satoh only uses it for specific 2 headed lute  
music). On his recording "Style brisé", he seems to be using an  
original lute, the Laurentius Greiff lute (1613) Fussen, so it is  
probably also a multi ribbed lute (no data on that at LSA,
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? 
PID=762)


The two headed lute used by Anthony Bailes, on the other hand, is a  
Warwick Frei model, and he clearly associates it with the French  
fashion for Bologna lutes. There could therefore be two ideas about  
the history of the two-headed lute. The first, stated clearly by  
Bailes, in his latest recording, is that the two headed lute is part  
of the taste for Bologna lutes that began with the search for new  
tunings, and before the success of the Dm tuning (before 1638, then).  
There do not seem to be any surviving Bologna 12c lutes, however. The  
Wolff looks more like a Warwick (from the front), twelve-course lute  
by Wolfgang Wolff, Füssen 16th century; although it is made in Fussen  
and has  15 ribs, so not a typical Bologna lute.

http://www.tabulatura.com/wolff.JPG
However, Van Edwards also makes a 12c based on the 9 ribbed 654  
Maler, the model-type owned by Rob, and

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore! (loaded)

[Anthony Hind]

Theo and Rob
Thanks Theo for the information.
Le 15 janv. 08 =E0 20:36, Rob a ecrit :

> Theo,
>
> Not sure what you mean by transparent kitchen wrap...?
Cling film, I think. It seems a good idea!
>
> Never heard of Damian Strings. I'll look them up.
http://www.damianstrings.com/
Notice that Damiani Dlugolecki  makes demi-file, but they are closer  
to gimped than true Mest type Demi-file as metal is wound in with the  
rope.
I hope Theo will tell us whether these strings are better than Gamut,  
at least to his ears.

Mimmo Peruffo claims that he has tested both sheep and beef gut, and  
no one was able to tell the difference in blind tests.
Regards
Anthony

>
> Cheers,
>
> Rob
>
> www.rmguitar.info
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: T. Diehl-Peshkur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 15 January 2008 19:27
> To: baroque Lutelist
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore! (loaded)
>
> Hello all,
> Indeed, even regarding gut strings, it all seems so complicated.
> I am in principle really happy with the Larson strings on my 11  
> course, but
> at 392 the basses of course work less well than at 415,
> although everything really stays in tune quite well (in my home)  
> actually
> even better than the modern strings did.
> But I couldn't resist, and am now waiting for =8Clambs gut' strings  
> from
> Damian Strings, all courses in full gut,
> without loading or even open winding on the lower courses..They cost a
> fortune, and I pray they will be as nice as I hear my lute in my
> imagination.
> In any case I will post any details after I get them on and settled  
> in.
>
> By the way: if you are traveling with a lute strung in gut on an  
> airplane or
> a cold car for several hours, I found that wrapping the lute in  
> transparent
> kitchen wrap before putting it in the case really helps a lot in  
> avoiding
> hours of tuning upon arrival. It seems to protect not just the  
> strings, but
> also the
> lute from long exposure to heating and humidity changes.
> Theo
>
>
>
> From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:37:14 +0100
> To: 
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore! (loaded)
>
>
> Le 14 janv. 08 =E0 18:12, Rob a ecrit :
>
>> Dear Anthony,
>>
>> I think you'll find the bass register below the 7th course more
>> problematical than the treble. Not only the sound quality of the
>> thick-gut
>> fundamentals, gimped or otherwise, but also the intonation compared
>> to the
>> octave neighbours.
> Yes this is why I hope that the loaded strings will become available.
> They don't have that problem.
> Anthony
>
>>
>> I might well return to gut in time. This is still very much an
>> experimental
>> phase.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore!

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
	I thought I read that these Larosn lutes were both strung in gut (I  
see in fact nothing is said to that effect). In Mp3 to be truthfull  
it is difficult to tell much, except that the Burholtzer has more  
bass presence and is rounder than the Frei, which was the main point  
to my message.
I am glad to hear that the lute played by Satoh, in the photo is  
actually a copy of the Greiff, not a Burkholtzer. I was afraid the  
Greiff, might be very different from the Burkholtzer, but I see it  
has the same mulitribbed form. Indeed, I imagined that Satoh chooses  
a large bodied multi-ribbed lute with his low tension strings, to  
compensate for the lack of bass this brings. Had the Greiff been  
different, I would have been proved wrong (I still might be, off  
course, as it might not be for that reason).
I am also imagining that he chose the Dutch lute form, both to evoke  
the "Style Brisé" repertoire with a multi-ribbed lute, and also to  
have a longer bass course on 12c and 11c, again to compensate for  
weak bass due to low tension, but without having over long strings  
elsewhere. If that is indeed, what he is doing, it is rather clever  
(and he kill three birds with one stone), but at the same time, this  
can't be considered a general solution, just his own very good  
compromise. All French Baroque lute players did not play such lutes,  
and you yourself need gimped strings with your 11c Frei. I don't  
think you could get away with pure low tension gut with this model  
and such a short string length.
However, this is also, clearly, a very satisfactory solution which  
works well for you, giving something nearer "equal to touch tension",  
I would suppose.
Thanks for all your help and advice. I have received so much  
information from lutists, lute makers, and string makers through this  
list and the French list that I am just beginning to get to grips  
with this very interesting question.

Best regards
Anthony


Le 16 janv. 08 à 13:50, Edward Martin a écrit :






Satoh appears to have found quite a good compromise. Unless I am
mistaken, he appears to have adopted the Dutch/English/French? 12c
Lute, to partly get round this problem. On this, the 12c and 11c, on
the second neck, are quite long, while the other strings are somewhat
shorter, thus allowing the player more agility; and at the same time,
the bass is reinforced by the large bowl size of the Burkholtzer  
lute.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TSatohConcert/  
PlayingRT.jpg


Anthony,

That lute is actually a copy of the Greiff, not a Burkholtzer.



Although, the Burkholtzer, recorded on the Larson site is a 13 c
lute, strung in Gamut gut perhaps with gimped, we can hear that it
has a rounder more bass orientated sound the 11c Hans Frei, now in
the Wein Kunsthistorisches Museum, no. C34 :
  Listen first the 13 c Burkholtzer:
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/berkholtzer/  
berkholtzer_baroque_lute_sarabande.wma

Second the on the Frei C34 :
http://www.daniellarson.com/lutes/frei/frei%20baroque%20lute.wma

Yes,


That is Paul Berget on the Burkholtzer 13 course lute, and me on  
the 11 course lute.  Paul is strung entirely in nylon. It is his  
choice.  I used all gut.




Ed Martin owns an 11c Frei C34 with a similar string length to that
of the Mouton lute, and he uses a form of loaded string, since
gimping does load the gut. This might not be historically "correct",
but it is a compromise with which Ed is clearly happy (perhaps, it is
Ed on the C34 recording above, certainly it is very probably the type
of stringing he is using).


Correct.



ed




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202






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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore!

[Anthony Hind]

Theo
	You are quite right to raise these issues. They hasn't been raised,  
so far.

Le 16 janv. 08 à 15:28, T. Diehl-Peshkur a écrit :



Hello Anthony, Martin and all,

Not wanting to add any more info to the full discussion that has  
been going

on here, I would like to ask a
general question on the string issue: How often does one come  
across frets

being stopped on courses 11, 10, 9, 8 or 7 ?
Sure there will be examples, but what I mean is, how common was it  
really in

the mass of 17th centiury French lute literature ?



As I understand it, 5 and 6 are common, 7 and 8 rarer and usually  
only on frets 1 & 3, 9c very rare, 10 extremely rare, and 11 (not  
stoppable on many lutes).




In the end, many gut strings offered will sound quite lovely an  
convincing

as open diapasons.
I hear many lutes that have full and warm basses whilst strung in gut,
historical compromises aside.

The problems come when you have to stop the large diapason with the  
octave

string. This often requires
turning the finger a little towards the fret to equalize the  
pressure on

both strings for intonation purposes.
And certain notes can sound quite weak with the big differences  
between both

strings.

I think that is very interesting. Thanks for the idea. I am sure  
there are ways of adapting to this problem, just as you are  
suggesting, and perhaps Rob, did not give that a long enough try.
It takes quite a long to get used to gut, and to develop an adequate  
technique, but perhaps Rob already had a long experience previously  
to his attempt with the Maler,
or he just didn't have the time to wait. That is up to Rob to discuss  
if he wants to.





I guess what I mean is that the real issue (aside from stability,  
etc.) of

gut is the playability factor.
I have just heard too many gut strung lutes with 10th/11th course  
basses of

1.7 or 2.00mm that sound really great to think that
the entire issue resides solely in the recreation of historical  
strings...




I certainly would have tried to use pure gut, even if the loaded  
strings did not become available; however, if the loaded strings are  
commercialized, and solve problems, particularly for those using  
small bodied lutes with short string lengths, then that is surely an  
excellent thing. I agree that the historical way is not the only way  
out of the problem. Satoh seems to have found an interesting way  
round and it may, or may not be historical. Others will also find  
other ways. All this leads to very interesting variation between  
players. I happen to be interested in the theoretical question of  
reconstruction, and take much pleasure in these issues, for their own  
right; but many lutists just want to get on with playing their lutes,  
and that is a fair comment.






The lute construction itself is also a big factor. And quite frankly
speaking, there are some builders who build instruments
that sound fab in gut, whilst the same model by another can be dull  
and

clunky with the same strings.
It is more than just the number of ribs, in my view. The  
differences in

sound of modern strung lutes vary widely enough
to make us examine that issue too!



I quite agree with you, some lutes, such as those by Maurice Ottiger,  
just wouldn't work in gut, even though they are well built lutes; but  
Martin Shepherd who made Rob's lute, himself uses and loves gut, so I  
doubt if that would be the problem with Rob's Maler.  Stephen  
Gottlieb will not sell a lute without it being strung in gut, and as  
he is the maker of my future 11c lute, I would very much doubt that  
that would be an issue.
However, within lute makers, who believe in gut and make their lutes  
with gut in mind, they are not all in agreement about how their lutes  
should be gut-strung. Some believe in low tension others in equal  
tension, perhaps a few believe in equal tension to touch. I think  
this will probably effect the way they build their lutes, but I am  
not sure about that. Perhaps, a lute maker will answer you



Sorry for the rambling!!
Theo


I ramble far more, no need to appologize
Regards
Anthony





From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:40:00 +0100
To: Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: I haven't got the guts anymore!

Ed
 I thought I read that these Larosn lutes were both strung in gut (I
see in fact nothing is said to that effect). In Mp3 to be truthfull
it is difficult to tell much, except that the Burholtzer has more
bass presence and is rounder than the Frei, which was the main point
to my message.
I am glad to hear that the lute played by Satoh, in the photo is
actually a copy of the Greiff, not a Burkholtzer. I was afraid the
Greiff, might be very different from the Burkholtzer, but I see it
has the same mulitribbed form. Indeed, I imagined that Satoh chooses
a large bodied multi-ribbed lute with his low tension string

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Rép : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 12c + I haven't got the guts anymore!

[Anthony Hind]

Rob, please do not think I am criticising yourself or your lute, or  
Martin's work. I am definitley not, and I hope any full reading of my  
message will show that.
I am very much interested in the issue you raised, for two separate  
reasons : (1) I like gut and I hope to be able to use it, and (2) I  
am very much interested in the historic research aspect. I really  
enjoy that.

Your criticism of thick gut, happens to be one of the arguments in  
favour of loaded strings (and also probably low tension stringing). I  
am intrigued by this issue, and the research articles by Mimmo  
Peruffo, and his whole approach to that question really  impresses  
me, as it does some others, (see David van Edwards
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/mar01/month.htm)

You have every right to chose the soultion which works best for you,  
and you are right to point out the problems that you have come accross.
If we want to use gut, we have to find solutions to those problems.  
Theo thinks he can play round them, perhaps he can, Satoh goes the  
two headed low tesnion way, Ed uses Gimped, but each gut user needs  
to think about that.

Le 16 janv. 08 =E0 18:01, Rob a ecrit :

 I doubt if that would be the problem with Rob's Maler.<<<
>
> Erm...who said there was anything wrong with my lute? I can't fault  
> it -
> warm (no matter what strings are on it), well set up, easy to play,
> beautifully balanced. One of the best lutes I've ever played. The  
> 'problem'
> is not really a problem either: the thing I liked least about the  
> particular
> gut I used was intonation all over the lute, not just the bass  
> courses. To
> me, that chaconne recording I did is out of tune. It might not  
> bother anyone
> else much, but it drives me to distraction. Ultimately, I guess, I  
> prefer
> the intonation of the nylgut over any 'authenticity' question  
> regarding
> string material. I have no problems playing this lute. If I could  
> afford to
> spend a few hundred pounds experimenting with different makers' gut  
> and
> styles of diapasons, I would happily do so. I do, after all, love  
> the sound
> of gut, but I obviously have other priorities.

Rob, I certainly did not say there was a problem with your Maler. Cut  
from context, it might look like that.
I was replying to Theo, who said that some lutes don't work with gut.
I answered that considering Martin Shepherd is a gut lover, and wants  
gut on his lutes, that would harly be the case with this lute (that  
was my meaning, and no other).

I know Martin has spent much time thinking about these issues, and  
has often written on these pages, and on the French list about this  
sort of issue.
I could say that Martin was the first person I encountered ready to  
discuss gut, and the difference between gut-types from various makers.
I also know how long he has had this project for creating an 11c  
Maler. It is not just a sudden impulse, but a long term project that  
Martin has been mulling over for at least the last five years.

>
> Setting that aside, I wonder, Anthony, why you don't ask Stephen to  
> make you
> a 12c? He has just made one for Paul Beier. I'm sure he'd love to make
> another.
While I was writing this morning, it suddenly came to me why Satoh  
was probably using the 12c. I had written a message about low tension  
stringing (that I have not sent), and I was looking for a photo of  
Satoh playing to show his RH posiiton, and suddenly, I realized why  
he had chosen such a lute. It means longer bass strings, while  
shorter medium and treble, but also, if most 12c lutes were multi- 
ribbed, a larger bowl. He gets double compensation for the weak bass.  
He also gets a lute that looks as though it could play French baroque.

I hadn't read Kenneth Sparr's pages in detail, but I have just seen  
that he says almost the same thing, about the invention of this lute  
type:
http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm
"Using the same (short) string length for all courses of the lute  
caused problems: a short string length required very thick bass  
strings which resulted in an inferior sound. On the other hand with a  
much longer string length it was not possible to tune the highest  
courses to the desired pitch. One solution was to keep a short string  
length for the upper register and gradually increase the string  
length for the bass strings"

As I was writing about Satoh's choice, I myself, began to think a  
little as you have. I was actually wondering about talking to Stephen  
about it. I knew he had made a 12c lute, but I didn't know who for,  
or what sort of 12c lute (do you know the sort?). I also rather like  
Anthony Baile's new 12c recording.

However, I am not so keen on the multi-ribbed bowl lutes. As you say  
yourself, the 9 or 11 ribbed lute has a freer sound. Do we know that  
Bologna lutes were ever made double-headed, as Anthony Baile's  
obviously thinks.
I rather doubt it. Burwell, and the etching of Jacques Gaultier,  
places this 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Amateur Recording

[Anthony Hind]

Amadeus for MAC, a very superior audio tool. The pro model allows you  
to record almost directly to CD.

Anthony



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Ed
Thank you so much for this account, you have almost made us feel as  
though we were there with you, and the information is so interesting.

The marks you noticed  towards the bridge seem to confirm the images  
on the Aquila page; and Mimmo Peruffo also told me something similar  
to what you say here,
" The marks I mentioned on
>
> the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are  
> very
> open & obvious to the naked eye."
Mimmo told me that some of the marks were quite deep and yet they are  
not at all obvious on the photos.
I will try to write a message soon, about the difficulty of  
interpreting these marks.

It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger  
lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then  
baroqued bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html

However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in  
returning to the previous interpretation: the double traces, you  
mention, could well indicate that this
was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were left  
when it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the  
Baroque technique traces might have been left.
  " One player played
> near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as  
> well as
> the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger  
> marks.  One
> player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
> multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from  
> a long
> right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,  
> towards the
> neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular
> instrument, there were more than one player using very different
> techniques.  " Ed

This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique.
In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance  
traces might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its  
Renaissance sound board.
I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how old  
the soundboards are.

At the time, I mentioned this possibility, I was thinking of the  
Warwick Frei, as I understand Ray Nurse claims that the soundboard  
(thick at the edges to almost 3mm) is origninal on this instrument,  
while it would not be on the C34 Frei (thin near the edge). However,  
the Warwick was restored by Michael Lowe, and I don't know whether he  
found any such marks, before restoring it; and if so, whether he  
might have left them, or cleaned them off. Has anyone seen the  
Warwick recently, can any one report on that?

I take it that the marks near the rose, were quite different from  
these on the nine course (c1620) Matheus Buchenberg
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ucj/ucjh3249qflu_s.jpg
It would seem that these could be something to do with repairs made  
to the rose. Unfortunately, Rob could find no other traces on this lute.

Thank you again, Ed, for sharing this marvellous experience with us.
Best regards
Anthony





Le 6 fevr. 08 =E0 04:09, Edward Martin a ecrit :

> Dear ones,
>
> I have an interesting story.
>
> Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music,  
> in South
> Dakota.  It was an absolutely fantastic experience.  They have  
> many, many
> lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger.  They also have  
> guitars
> by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam.  Many violins by Stradivarius,  
> Ganeri,
> Amati, etc.  It was unbelievable.
>
> The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers!  We examined  
> them for
> about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,  
> etc.  They
> have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others.  One is 76 cm
> mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by
> Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker.  Later, they were  
> converted
> to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger;  the longer  
> instrument in
> 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of  
> bird's
> eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.
>
> What really startled me was the 76 cm lute.  It is documented that  
> these
> lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years.  It  
> appeared to me
> that 2, or 3 different players used this lute.  It showed heavy  
> usage, so
> it was more than likely played at a professional level.  One player  
> played
> near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as  
> well as
> the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger  
> marks.  One
> player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
> multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from  
> a long
> right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,  
> towards the
> neck, on all the diapason courses!

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
What sort of treble string could support 81cm?
I am amazed.
Anthony


Le 6 févr. 08 à 14:08, Edward Martin a écrit :


At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches,
they could have been erased.
As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep.

However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the
strings right up to the diapasons.

 "One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as  
there are

multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses!"


Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a
thumb nail?


Yes.


In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and
thumb?



Yes, definitely, for the thumb.


It almost sounds as though the player might have had something
attached to his fingers
(like some blues players do).


I doubt that but who knows?



You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking
of the total length.
Do you have any idea of the actual string length?


Those ARE the string lengths.  76 and 81 or 82 cm.  HUGE baroque  
lutes!  They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch  
than f at 415.




Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not
so easy to come by.
Regards
Anthony

Le 6 févr. 08 à 12:57, Edward Martin a écrit :


Anthony, and all,

I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations.
There are
many, many possibilities.  We do not know if the original lutes
were bass
lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if
they were
actually new lutes by Edlinger.  The evidence seems to point to
them being
old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger.  It is
undetermined,
but it appears  that if they are from the renaissance, that they are
probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin.

Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem.  When he did the 13
course
conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as
he had
great skills.  All he would have to do is simply sand the top a
little to
make all those ugly scratches go away.  It makes no sense to go  
to the

trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will
multiple
scratch marks.. that would be silly.  The scratches are from
after the
conversion.

No, all the sets of  marks are both make by 13 course players, and
they
were made after the conversion.  The nail like scratches were made
using an
interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose,
where the
finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which
matches a
technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out
quite
sharply towards the neck.  No, this was not in any way renaissance
technique;  as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses
that are
on the lute now.  The evidence of the  "other" technique on that
lute also
suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck.

Thanks!

ed



At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the  
Edlinger

lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then
baroqued
bt Edlinger,
but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger.
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10213ItalianLute.html
http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/10214ItalianLute.html

However, I can't help wondering whether you are not right in
returning to
the previous interpretation: the double traces, you mention, could
well
indicate that this
was indeed a Renaissance lute, on which Renaissance traces were
left when
it was later baroqued by Edlinger, and then after that the Baroque
technique traces might have been left.
 " One player played

near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as
well as
the thumb.  These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger
marks.  One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as  
there are

multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks),
from a long
right hand nail.  That player even played in front of the rose,
towards the
neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this
particular
instrument, there were more than one player using very different
techniques.  " Ed


This sounds very much like a Renaissance technique.
In a previous message, I had wondered whether any such Renaissance
traces
might not exist on a Baroque lute that might have kept its
Renaissance
sound board.
I imagine it would be difficult to analyse these lutes to see how
old the
soundboards are.




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota

[Anthony Hind]

Ed and Martyn
	A similar idea came to me when I mentioned those devices that can be  
added to the fingers, in blues playing (although I thought some such  
contraptions might have existed at the time).
When an instrument is not kept in museum conditions, we can never be  
sure that it has not been mishandled and that some traces have taken  
place after

the instrument has ceased to be used as a lute.
However, all individual traces must be considered as insufficient  
proof of a playing style. Only when we have a number of such traces,  
or a text referring to the practice, or iconography that could be  
interpreted in the same direction, can we be fairly sure this was a  
more general practice.
Nevertheless, this takes nothing away from the interesting facts that  
Ed and Dan's visit to this museum are bringing to light.


I notice that the LSA lute database, while being a very useful tool,  
lacks so much basic information.

I see that the Greiff which Satoh used on his "style brisé" recording
http://www.channelclassics.com/pictures/208795.jpg
has practically no details, not even the number of ribs; and yet this  
was completely restored by van de Waals.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? 
PID=762


It would be a good thing if there was a method of forwarding  
information to Klaus Martius, as exists on this tonearm Cartridge  
database.

http://www.cartridgedb.com/
http://www.cartridgedb.com/addnewcd.asp
This could be restricted to serious research people (I mean the  
forwarding of information). I would not pretend to be one of them,  
but Dan Larson and Ed Martin should qualify, for example.
It would also be excellent if at some time, the database could give  
links to any existing photos and serious plans and measurements.


I am also struck by the small number of lutes that actually are  
copied now; and when we think that extant lutes are such a small  
number of the great variety that once existed, I can't help thinking  
that this is further restricting the wide tonal variety that once  
must have existed.


Anthony


Le 6 févr. 08 à 14:57, Martyn Hodgson a écrit :


 Thank you for this.

  Just a thought,  but the marks on the belly over and above the  
rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming  
guitarist.  Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar  
in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6  
courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string  
them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on  
the old lute he found in the attic..


  MH


Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music,  
in South
Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many,  
many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have  
guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius,  
Ganeri,

Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined  
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,  
etc. They

have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were  
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer  
instrument in
1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of  
bird's

eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew.

What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that  
these
lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared  
to me
that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy  
usage, so
it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player  
played
near the bridge, due to smudge & dirt marks from the fingers, as  
well as

the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One
player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are
multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from  
a long
right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose,  
towards the

neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular
instrument, there were more than one player using very different
techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed
towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge.

The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being  
played very
close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the  
bridge was

worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there.

It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same  
family in the
same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions  
to 13

course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking  
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving  
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of  
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.

Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to  
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.

Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course  
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near  
the

rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks  
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th  
course, down

to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the  
rose, but

marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and  
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have  
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque  
lutenist

would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is  
amazing.


The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very  
long
time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different  
baroque

lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was  
played in

its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might  
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.  
You'll

know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,  
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more  
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums  
playing

a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from  
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were  
in the

castle attic for "a very long time".

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before  
1907),

perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?

MH

Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to  
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a  
"Heckel" looked

at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you for this.

Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the  
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.  
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th  
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they  
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son  
of the

house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic..

MH


Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of  
Music, in

South
Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have  
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also  
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by  
Stradivarius, Ganeri,

Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined  
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,  
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is  
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps  
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were  
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer  
instrument in

1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of

bird's

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau de du But

[Anthony Hind]

I hope the original went to Rob with photo
Le 12 fevr. 08 =E0 17:00, Anthony Hind a ecrit :

Rob
> Oh dear, that is exactly what I did. It happened for your very  
> first recording, I seem to remember. I wonder what migh be causing  
> this. Probably a Mac issue
>
> However clicking on the link works just fine, and it is beautiful,  
> and sound good for such an ordinary mic. Glad to hear your arm is  
> better, as I permanently struggle with some similar problem.
> It doesn't matter at my age, and poor skill in lute playing, but  
> your not being able to play would be a real loss.
> Anthony


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau de du But

[Anthony Hind]

0

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau de du But

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
I seem to be the only one who can't see it. I am on Mac and Firefox
Isi it on the page with De Visée etc?
Regards
Anthony
Le 12 févr. 08 à 12:16, Mathias Rösel a écrit :


"Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
It seemed to bring out the best in them. This one is very moving,  
and I hope
you enjoy listening to it. I consider it a 'work in progress'  
recording. You
can find it just above the photo of me holding the lute near the  
bottom of

this page: http://www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm


Beautiful. - What made you choose the ornaments the way you did? I  
seem

to notice kind of a preponderance for rather short trills instead of
long appogiature.
--
Mathias



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pitch for French music

[Anthony Hind]

Perhaps when you say, "Again, there's no proof, but


increasing the life of a treble string would
undoubtedly have been one of the areas of prime
concern.  (Indeed, Mace in 1676 implies that trebles
were stronger than the basses!)"


it depends what that means. As I understand it, under equel tension,  
a treble ist still stronger than

a Pistoy or a Venice."

I may be wrong, I often am, but that is what I understood.

I am of course not saying that we could not make stronger trebles.
I am sure we could, and that they indeed existed.
I hope we will see them again.
Anthony


Le 14 févr. 08 à 18:01, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit :


Hi Ed,

--- Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I am uncertain if the strings back in the period
were better than ours
today.  That is unproven, and as we have no strings
of which to compare, we
really cannot assume they were better than what is
available today.



But I think we can assume...

At the risk of disagreeing with you and sounding a bit
like Donald Rumsfeld, we KNOW that there is a lot we
do NOT KNOW when it comes to the ancient strings and
how exactly they were made.  Back in the day, so much
of the process of making a type of string was specific
to a region and held as a closely kept secret by the
guilds.  That's why there are Minikins, ("Munich's"?)
Romans, Lyons, Venice-catlins, etc. - each highly
regarded as centers specializing in a single type of
string, i.e. trebles, meanes, basses, etc.

I can provide no hard evidence, but it's probably a
safe bet that the cities with a reputation for making
the best trebles knew more about the qualities of this
type of string; more than we do now.  Does this mean
that they were able to make more robust, longer
lasting strings?  Again, there's no proof, but
increasing the life of a treble string would
undoubtedly have been one of the areas of prime
concern.  (Indeed, Mace in 1676 implies that trebles
were stronger than the basses!)

Think about it: If all you ever did as an ancient
string maker was concentrate on treble strings, this
would give you plenty of time to try many solutions.
And since the master/apprentice system was in use,
this would provide the chance to implement
improvements over _generations_ within an entire
workshop of subordinates, each with his own expertise
and knowledge.  And, if your reputation relied on
making the best possible treble strings, naturally you
wouldn't want anyone else knowing your secret formula.
 If this applies to your contemporaries it will apply
even more to folks hundreds of years in the future
(i.e. us).

Today, we put an awful lot of (often misplaced) faith
in our abilities to research and use the scientific
method to solve problems from the past.  There's the
unspoken conviction that, with our superior technology
and cognative skills, we will naturally uncover all of
the secrets of the "primitives."  (If WE can't make
gut trebles better right now, there's _no_way_ the
ancients could outdo us!)  And, being modern
consumers, we expect to be provided a "one stop"
string maker who's trebles, meanes, and basses are all
equally good.

Is it really realistic for us to expect a modern gut
string maker to be able to discover and master all of
the intricasies of making each type of string that all
of the combined workshops of Europe, working with
generations of accumulated technical knowledge
specific to a type of string, each operating in
multiple locales did?  Considering the comparitively
short time that serious research has been ongoing into
ancient string-making, the answer is obvious.

My heart is with today's string makers.  Keep working
on it; progress is being made.  I include modern gut
in my plethora of stringings.  And Ed, I applaud your
and others' efforts with using gut strings.  You've
gotten some very beautiful results with it.

However, it is a dangerous game for us as players to
be basing important musical considerations solely
around our very limited assumptions of those strings
today.


I was recently in South Dakota, examining 2
Edlingers.  One has a string
length of 76 cm, the other one 81 or 82 cm.  These
are 13 course baroque
lutes, not theorbos.  They certainly could not be
string with a gut treble
up to "f" at 415.



No, what you meant to say is that we can not string it
up to "f" at 415 (or 423 or 445) with one of our guts
today. ;-)

Chris





ed

At 11:43 AM 2/14/2008 +0100, T. Diehl-Peshkur wrote:

Thanks everyone for the responses so far!
The info on wind instruments and the prevalence of

+/- 392Hz etc. is

clearbut I am just not convinced yet...
For most string instruments, the usual method was

to tune the highest note

as high as comfortable, and go from there.
Especially when used for solo work of course.
We hear many stories about how wonderful the old

strings must have been,

etc. so I can only suppose that their gut trebles
didn't break as easily (perhaps) as ours do. I can

now use gut f' at 415Hz

and 68cm for about 2 weeks before it 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Anthony, I usually have to do quite a few takes before I can get  
one that doesn't have any gross mistakes in it. One thing that  
helps me is to think that if I make a mistake on this take, I can  
just erase it and do another. That seems to take some of the  
pressure off. I have only played in public a few times--a  
meditation piece after communion in church, for example, and I  
found it an absolutely nerve-wracking experience. I'm not cut out  
for public performance.


I played Renaissance lute for about four years before taking up the  
Baroque lute. I have to say that though there are virtuosic  
Renaissance pieces that I shall never be able to play, there are  
thousands that are well within my reach. I haven't found that to be  
the case with Baroque music. There doesn't seem to be a lot of easy  
music for it. Most of it seems pretty advanced to me. For the drums  
there are scores of books containing technical, rudimental  
exercises aimed at building skill. Playing through them really  
works. I don't know of any books like that for the lute, but I  
certainly think it would help if I had a series of technical  
exercise to play through for an hour a day.


Lutists keep telling me the contrary. They say that the left hand is  
so much easier on Baroque lute. I suppose it does depend on what  
Renaissance music you want to play. Some of those easier pieces can  
be very entertaining when someone else plays them, but can quickly  
become quite tiresome when repeated (I am amazed at the courage of  
teachers who have to constantly listen to such pieces poorly played);  
but if you are drawn to the more "devious" and interweaving melodic  
patterns, it soon becomes less simple. That is truly the reason I am  
more drawn to French Baroque than to say Weiss (i am not saying that  
Weiss is easy to play, of course).


Nevertheless, your experience with French Baroque, along with the  
fact that you seem to be using gut strings " I think a new instrument  
and gut strings have helped a lot, and I am more satisfied with the  
sound I am getting now"

gives me hope.

Of course for the Renaissance lute Andrea Damiani gives some  
exercises; and the new Baroque Method by Miguel Serdoura to be   
published by the same editor (http://www.utorpheus.com/utorpheus/)  
does the same. I have the previous version in French, but I haven't  
tried the exercises not having my lute as yet; but I have just seen  
that Rob says, it is just what you are looking for.


Translation into English is under progress, and I sometimes receive a  
question from the translator. It is not so easy to translate a method  
which makes an explicit reference to parts of the fingers to which  
the other language never seems to refer. It is strange how we can get  
by with all these gaps in our lexical system. Nevertheless, it should  
be out fairly soon. You can send an email to Miguel, and he will let  
you know when it is ready. I will also send a message to the list as  
soon as I hear that it is available.


http://www.miguelserdoura.com/fr/?Publications
http://www.miguelserdoura.com/?&mailform
Regards
Anthony

Le 22 févr. 08 à 06:36, Stephen Arndt a écrit :

To those who kindly took the time to listen to and comment on my  
recording:


Rob, thank you for your continuous encouragement. It really means a  
lot coming from someone with your level of expertise.


Stuart, to be honest I don't believe I'm at the point yet where I  
can worry too much about getting phrases to stand out without  
losing the pulse. I'm pretty happy if I can just get my fingers to  
the right place at the right time. I guess I would have to say that  
I can't really play the lute musically yet, only mechanically. Not  
that I'm doing particularly well on that front either. I agree with  
your point about razor-sharpness. It is usually notated as a  
trilled note followed by two sixteenth notes, though I have heard  
it on recordings as two thirty-second notes. I don't  have the  
rhythmic values very precise yet.


I am looking forward to hearing one of your pieces. When can we  
look forward to one?


Martin, I have a facsimile on CD, and the piece is on the Adobe  
Acrobat page 66. According to the table of contents at the end,  
however, it is on the Barbe Manuscript page 74. I tried playing  
through Weiss originally but found a lot of it too difficult. I  
especially had trouble making much musical sense of some of the  
preludes. (I don't know how Daniel Shoskes does it. He seems to  
play it so precisely.) So, I decided to see whether the French  
repertoire was any easier, and I picked the Barbe Manuscript  
because of the fingering indications.


I got a very metallic sound on my 10-course Renaissance lute and  
haven't played it anymore since getting my Baroque lute (I am  
waiting for the builder of the latter to make me another 10-course  
with the same string spacing to facilitate the transition between  
the two instruments). For the longest

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Stephen
	I have sent you a more detailed message on this topic with  
photographs of lutes that I can't include in my messages to all, as  
they would just be filtered out.
Nevertheless, as I have just checked and seen that you are using a  
13c lute (if it is is not a swanneck), perhaps you could just remove  
the two lowest bass courses, when playing 11c music
(I think that should be easier, from what I have been told); and then  
eventually you could put them back for 13c music, when you really  
need it.

Regards
Anthony


Le 24 févr. 08 à 11:09, Anthony Hind a écrit :




Le 23 fevr. 08 =E0 22:17, Stephen Arndt a ecrit :


Anthony wrote:


"Lutists keep telling me the contrary. They say that the left hand
is so much easier on Baroque lute. "



I know. That seems to be the majority opinion. They also cite the
reason that Baroque music uses more open strings. I still have
trouble finding the right bass string, not of course when the bass
line moves chromatically but, for example, when I have to jump
from, say, the fourth course to the eighth or the fifth to the
tenth. I suppose that, all in all, the left hand is easier, but for
me the right hand is more difficult, and somehow Baroque lute seems
much more difficult on the whole than Renaissance.



Sorry Stephen, you have probably already answered this, but are you
playing a 13c lute, or an 11c lute. A number of people who have moved
from Renaissance lute into the Baroque repertoire, and who have both
lute types, have told me that moving to a 13c lute, is far more
difficult than going the 11c way.


Ed wrote:

"Is this available on the web? I have two sets from the Barbe set
by Kemer Thomson: E.Gaultier and Gallot le Vieux, but what you have
sounds much bigger."

Yes, it is much larger--the complete manuscript. As far as I know,
it is not available on the web. Please contact me off-list.


I suppose this does not interest you, or is not complete, and you
will know it, but some one else may be interested, so I will mention
it anyway:

MANUSCRIT BARBE. -- Pi=E8ces de luth de differents auteurs en  
tablature

fran=E7aise. ca. 1690. Fac-simile (en 2 couleurs) du ms. de la
Biblioth=E8que nationale, Paris, Res. Vmb. ms 7. Introduction de  
Claude

Chauvel. Gen=E8ve, 1985. 1 volume in-4 oblong de 220 pages, broche.
(Manuscrits, Tome 8)
ISBN 2-8266-0725-1 FS 180.- /  Euro  129.-
Pi=E8ces groupees par tonalites et ecrites avec de precieux details
d'interpretations. Parmi les auteurs: Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, les
Gallot, les Gautier, Mezangeau, Mouton, Pinel, Vincent. Le premier
possesseur du manuscrit fut J.-B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour des
Aides =E0 Paris sous Louis XIV; le dernier: le musicologue Henri
Pruni=E8res.

The pieces are arranged by key and written with precious details on
performance. The composers include Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, the
Gallots, the Gautiers, Mezangeau, P. Mouton, Pinel and Vincent. The
first owner of the manuscript was J. -B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour
des Aides at Paris under Louis XIV; the last owner was the
musicologist Henri Pruni=E8res.
http://www.minkoff-editions.com/musique_musicologie/pages/m.htm


Rob wrote:

"You mentioned books - do you have the baroque lute tutor by Satoh
and the one by Miguel Serdoura, 'Collection Le Secret Des Muses'?
The latter has lots of exercises and easy pieces. I have the French
version which was published by the French Lute Society, but I
believe it has been withdrawn and will be published by another
publisher both in French and a seperate English language volume.
Anthony should be able to update us on that. It is 346 pages long
and includes good biographies of the main and lesser-known  
composers."


There are also two other booklets for sale at the French SFL site
which Timo Peedu thought were very useful, at
(http://www.sf-luth.org/index.php?Partitions/Le_Secret_des_Muses),
http://tinyurl.com/yqa7p2

Volume 34 : 80 Pi=E8ces faciles pour luth baroque by Jean-Luc Bresson,
Oeuvres de Dufaut, Dubut, Gautier, Logy, Pinel, Mouton, Reusner,
Anonymes.
Paris 2007. 50 p. Prix : 15  Euro  / 20  Euro  + (FR / 2,5  Euro )  
(EU / 3  Euro )


Volume 4 : Musique fran=E7aise pour luth au 17e si=E8cle, choix de 20
pi=E8ces pour luth baroque =E0 11 ch=9Curs par Jo=EBl Dugot :  
Gallot, Dufaut,
Mouton. Paris 1987. 48 p. Prix : 11  Euro  / 15  Euro  + (FR / 2,5   
Euro ) (EU / 3  Euro )




I have used the one by Satoh but have not seen the one by Serdoura.
It sounds really good. Do you know whether the same text is just
being reissued or whether it has been revised? If the former, I
shall try to locate a used copy. I speak fluent French, so the
language is not a problem.


It only came out for a few months before all the copies were sold.
Then Miguel decided to change editors. I know that some parts are
being slightly altered, but not, I think, substantially; and probably
not the music choices.
The main difference would be the presentatio

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Oups, I made a slip again, sorry Baroque people.
AH

Debut du message reexpedie :

> De : Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date : 24 fevrier 2008 11:09:01 HNEC
> =C0 : Stephen Arndt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,  
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED] Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3
>
>>
> Le 23 fevr. 08 =E0 22:17, Stephen Arndt a ecrit :
>
>> Anthony wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Lutists keep telling me the contrary. They say that the left hand
>> is so much easier on Baroque lute. "
>>
>>
>>
>> I know. That seems to be the majority opinion. They also cite the
>> reason that Baroque music uses more open strings. I still have
>> trouble finding the right bass string, not of course when the bass
>> line moves chromatically but, for example, when I have to jump
>> from, say, the fourth course to the eighth or the fifth to the
>> tenth. I suppose that, all in all, the left hand is easier, but for
>> me the right hand is more difficult, and somehow Baroque lute seems
>> much more difficult on the whole than Renaissance.
>>

Sorry Stephen, you have probably already answered this, but are you
playing a 13c lute, or an 11c lute. A number of people who have moved
from Renaissance lute into the Baroque repertoire, and who have both
lute types, have told me that moving to a 13c lute, is far more
difficult than going the 11c way.
>
>> Ed wrote:
>>
>> "Is this available on the web? I have two sets from the Barbe set
>> by Kemer Thomson: E.Gaultier and Gallot le Vieux, but what you have
>> sounds much bigger."
>>
>> Yes, it is much larger--the complete manuscript. As far as I know,
>> it is not available on the web. Please contact me off-list.
>
I suppose this does not interest you, or is not complete, and you
will know it, but some one else may be interested, so I will mention
it anyway:

MANUSCRIT BARBE. -- Pi=E8ces de luth de differents auteurs en tablature
fran=E7aise. ca. 1690. Fac-simile (en 2 couleurs) du ms. de la
Biblioth=E8que nationale, Paris, Res. Vmb. ms 7. Introduction de Claude
Chauvel. Gen=E8ve, 1985. 1 volume in-4 oblong de 220 pages, broche.
(Manuscrits, Tome 8)
ISBN 2-8266-0725-1 FS 180.- /  Euro  129.-
Pi=E8ces groupees par tonalites et ecrites avec de precieux details
d'interpretations. Parmi les auteurs: Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, les
Gallot, les Gautier, Mezangeau, Mouton, Pinel, Vincent. Le premier
possesseur du manuscrit fut J.-B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour des
Aides =E0 Paris sous Louis XIV; le dernier: le musicologue Henri
Pruni=E8res.

The pieces are arranged by key and written with precious details on
performance. The composers include Boquet, Dubut, Dufaut, the
Gallots, the Gautiers, Mezangeau, P. Mouton, Pinel and Vincent. The
first owner of the manuscript was J. -B. Barbe, conseiller =E0 la cour
des Aides at Paris under Louis XIV; the last owner was the
musicologist Henri Pruni=E8res.
http://www.minkoff-editions.com/musique_musicologie/pages/m.htm
>>
>> Rob wrote:
>>
>> "You mentioned books - do you have the baroque lute tutor by Satoh
>> and the one by Miguel Serdoura, 'Collection Le Secret Des Muses'?
>> The latter has lots of exercises and easy pieces. I have the French
>> version which was published by the French Lute Society, but I
>> believe it has been withdrawn and will be published by another
>> publisher both in French and a seperate English language volume.
>> Anthony should be able to update us on that. It is 346 pages long
>> and includes good biographies of the main and lesser-known  
>> composers."
>
There are also two other booklets for sale at the French SFL site
which Timo Peedu thought were very useful, at
(http://www.sf-luth.org/index.php?Partitions/Le_Secret_des_Muses),
http://tinyurl.com/yqa7p2

Volume 34 : 80 Pi=E8ces faciles pour luth baroque by Jean-Luc Bresson,
Oeuvres de Dufaut, Dubut, Gautier, Logy, Pinel, Mouton, Reusner,
Anonymes.
Paris 2007. 50 p. Prix : 15  Euro  / 20  Euro  + (FR / 2,5  Euro )  
(EU / 3  Euro )

Volume 4 : Musique fran=E7aise pour luth au 17e si=E8cle, choix de 20
pi=E8ces pour luth baroque =E0 11 ch=9Curs par Jo=EBl Dugot : Gallot,  
Dufaut,
Mouton. Paris 1987. 48 p. Prix : 11  Euro  / 15  Euro  + (FR / 2,5   
Euro ) (EU / 3  Euro )

>>
>> I have used the one by Satoh but have not seen the one by Serdoura.
>> It sounds really good. Do you know whether the same text is just
>> being reissued or whether it has been revised? If the former, I
>> shall try to locate a used copy. I speak fluent French, so the
>> language is not a problem.
>
It only came out for a few months before all the copies were sold.
Then Miguel decided to change editors. I know that 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Rob and Stephen
	About Miguel Serdoura's lute method, Miguel doe  not seem to know  
what the price will be, but he says it will be printed by Ut Orpheus,  
and will come out between September and October 2008, both in French  
and in English.
The Damiani is at 39€ http://tinyurl.com/38uyuv, but it is only 200  
pages as opposed to about 345 pages (unless the music examples are  
reduced in size).

Regards
Anthony


Le 24 févr. 08 à 11:39, Rob MacKillop a écrit :


On 24/02/2008, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



You could try sending a message to the French list, but I doubt if
anyone will want to part with this rather strange first edition.
Anthony



I would swap my original French edition for a new English edition...

Rob

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3

[Anthony Hind]

Miguel estimates his method should cost  somewhere around 40 € to 50 
€. I think that sounds about right, if you look at the Damiani edition.

No guarantee of course.
Anthony


Le 24 févr. 08 à 22:43, Anthony Hind a écrit :


Rob and Stephen
	About Miguel Serdoura's lute method, Miguel doe  not seem to know  
what the price will be, but he says it will be printed by Ut  
Orpheus, and will come out between September and October 2008, both  
in French and in English.
The Damiani is at 39€ http://tinyurl.com/38uyuv, but it is only 200  
pages as opposed to about 345 pages (unless the music examples are  
reduced in size).

Regards
Anthony


Le 24 févr. 08 à 11:39, Rob MacKillop a écrit :


On 24/02/2008, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



You could try sending a message to the French list, but I doubt if
anyone will want to part with this rather strange first edition.
Anthony



I would swap my original French edition for a new English edition...

Rob

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

ut might actually see some progress.
I should confess, I do not have a lute of above 7 courses, so  
perhaps should
not be troubling this list - my apologies if this is a breech of  
etiquette


Alan


- Original Message -
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Stuart Walsh"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Stephen Arndt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:55 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3


Dear Stephen and Martin
Thank you Stephen for sharing this with us. As I am about to begin
attempting to approach this music myself (I have always loved this
repertoire since I heard the Anthony Bailes LP, in the 70s). I can
assure you I would be so pleased to reach this level of musicality in
just one year; and also to be able to master stress in front of the
microphone, as well as you have done, here.

Since semi retirement, I have been up-hill struggling to master the
Renaissance lute. Progress seemed fairly quick at first when I took
up the lute again, but I swiftly hit a plateau, and not at a high
enough level, I feel.
I regularly, go to listen to other amateurs and professionals, once a
month; and I have rarely heard a player succeed in playing a complete
piece without fluffing a note. Most tell us that they were playing
far better a few hours before, at home in their kitchen, or whatever.
Stress in public (even in front of a teacher) and before the
microphone is clearly deadly, and very hard to overcome. Furthermore,
I notice that I have to play around an hour and a half, before I
reach the level I seemed to be at the day before.  Even most advanced
players tell me that this warm-up period is crucial with the lute. It
does not just effect the ability to play the notes, but also the
actual sound quality. You can have played a piece acceptably one day,
and pick up your lute later in front of someone, and be almost
incapable of playing it.

Martin, could the HD2 have some inner programme that raises
sensitivity or narrows the focus of the microphone (from more or less
omni to unidirectional) in relation to "its perception" of the source
(independently from your control), in order to somehow equalize the
sound level of the recording? Such a programme could explain this
effect ("I seemed to get more finger (thumb) noise at larger
distances").
Best wishes
Anthony






Le 21 févr. 08 à 10:18, Martin Shepherd a écrit :


Dear Stephen,

Thanks for sharing this with us - lovely music, a nice-sounding   
lute and
played with great feeling, what more could we want?   Except more  
of the

same...

I share your (and Stuart's) frustrations with this music - it is  
so  full

of detail, and I find the Allemandes the most difficult of  all.  I'm
amazed you've only been playing this lute a year: I know  from my own
experience that just because it's a lute and the music  is in nice
friendly French tab you think it's going to be easy, but  it takes  
a long
time to become really familiar with the tuning and  its associated  
chord
shapes, quite apart from all the other details  you have to  
contend with.
Though the nice thing about the Barbe MS  is the thoroughness with  
which
everything is indicated: RH and LH  fingering, ornaments,  
arpeggiation,
it's all there.  By the way, I  couldn't find this particular  
piece - I

have the facsimile which  only has (modern) page numbers, and page 66
clearly isn't the right  page.

On the recording side, it sounds good but I think with the   
equipment you
have it might be possible to improve it.  I did some  experiments  
with the

Zoom (I'm just using the built-in mics, which  seem to be very good):

I was recording very close (about .5m) and getting a slightly  
boomy  bass.
I also liked the idea of getting more room sound as I was  playing  
in a
room with quite a nice lively acoustic and people  don't normally  
listen

with their head less than two feet from the  lute!  So I did some
systematic experiments comparing distances of . 3, .6, 1.0 and 1.8m,
thinking that the 1.8m distance would give me  a better sound,  
albeit more
background hiss.  I did the same  experiment in two rooms, the  
summer room
(a lively acoustic with  lots of hard surfaces) and the music room  
(much
more sound- absorbing junk and a much drier acoustic).  I was  
surprised to
discover that the bass sound hardly changed at all with distance   
(except

that curiously I seemed to get more finger (thumb) noise at  larger
distances) whereas the treble sound was clearly better at  the short
distances, becoming more metallic as I got further away.   This  
was not at
all what I expected, but I labelled everything  carefully and  
normalized
the results so that overall volume didn't  feature in the  
comparison, so
I'm sure it was a fair test.  The  other thing was that the drier  
acou

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur Recording # 3 Newish direction

[Anthony Hind]

Alan
	If you are in the situation I was when beginning to play again, it  
is more a question of getting your hands back into a supple enough  
state to be able to do lute exercises.
The index of my left finger after one or two exercises would click,  
and then a sort of burning sensation would appear.


I did all sorts of finger exercises without lute: just finger  
exercises or movement with those Chinese balls that are supposed to  
cure rheumatism. It helped slightly, but then I found an exerciser  
called the Gripmaster.
It was created by a trumpeter, and looks like it; you can work each  
finger separately. Don't even bother working them all together. This  
appears to have "cured" the problem with my index finger.
Of course it is no replacement for finger exercises on the lute,  
which both strengthen and teach you the special coordination needed.  
It may be of no use whatsoever to a younger person who has always  
played and kept in trim.


It is not just a question of strengthening the fingers, however; it  
does seem to give more control. The fingers become more supple and  
progressively springy (shock absorbers?), and something happens to  
the pads of the finger tips, which seem to become more "squidgy". The  
tops of each "piston" is a slightly patterned plastic. This seems to  
alter the texture of the skin slightly, giving a smoother surface.  
After using it for a minute or so, the sound from the lute seems to  
become less scratchy.
The only thing is not to overuse it, like any exercise, as then it  
hinders play. Just moderate use, helps you to warm up the muscles,  
and gets me playing more quickly.


I have given it up, several times, thinking I no longer had use for  
it, but I think I have always slipped back slightly. It exists in  
various strengths, and is used by shooters, climbers, trumpeters, and  
some guitarists.
At first sight, it would be more useful for guitarists who need to  
hold down more tension, some like it some don't.


I lost mine on a trip out somewhere. I immediately bought another  
one. I have the red (medium high)and blue one (medium low) good for  
the little finger, but mainly use the red one.
Sometimes I use the blue one before the red, and then after the red,  
when I think about being very cautious, warming up, and warming down,  
as it were.


Be careful, the black one is also red, but with more black on it, and  
that might be too powerful for strengthening little fingers, etc.


Actually, I just looked at the reviews on Musiciansfriend.com and I  
couldn't find any negative remarks, but I do remember reading some  
previously.


Here is a positive one from an older guitarist : "My speed and  
accuracy increased and, also being an older musician I had no fatigue  
or cramping in my fingers as I usually have. "


I must insist that this is just my personal experience, and the same  
exerciser might be a disaster for someone else, perhaps even doing  
damage, or just no additional help if you are already in good form.


There are also books on general exercises specifically aimed at  
musicians. I bought one in French, "Education physique preventive  
pour les musiciens"

from http://www.arts-medicine.com/eng/indexeng.php?rub=3;
but there must be ones in English.
Anthony

Le 26 févr. 08 à 05:47, Ed Durbrow a écrit :



On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:46 PM, Alan Hoyle wrote:
So... might I ask if anyone out there can suggest good ways of  
spending the
first half hour or so of practice time so that, like Anthony, I  
don't have

to spend all my precious playing time trying prevent my playing
deteriorating once again, but might actually see some progress.


First of all, I'd say be your own teacher. Nobody knows better than  
your self what your hands need. It is a matter of tuning in to your  
body, knowing your weak points and finding ways to exercise them.


There have been some hand outs at LSA seminars of exercises by Paul  
Odette and Robert Barto. There are probably many finger exercises  
available on the web for guitarists that could be adapted for lute.


You can take almost anything from any piece and make an exercise  
out of it. One thing I  would recommend is to play just the right  
hand alone and work on a passage, paying attention to what the  
fingers are doing, tone, attack, relaxation, speed etc. You can  
make a pattern of it and do it on different strings. Then do that  
with the left hand. Circle the problem spots in a piece, extract  
them and make exercises out of them. Do NOT look at the music! Look  
at your hand (one at a time), then don't look at your hand and do  
it with your eyes closed, maintaining a relaxed and upright posture.


I'm starting to go on a bit. I'll shut up. I'm sure others will  
have lots of suggestions.


Oh, one other thing. The mother of all teachers is a recording device.

Ed Durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/luteinfo.html
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/




To get on o

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
	Yes I knew I would receive this message. That is why I have never  
mentioned it before; but I was careful to say it has nothing to do  
with strength, but everything to do with suppleness, and control. It  
seems to make the joints more flexible. I have naturally very  
unsupple fingers, which I find hard to bend back. Again it may depend  
on each person's hand structure.
I notice that it is used by marksmen to control their trigger finger,  
surely not for additional strength but for control (slow controlled  
movement).there is also this curious change to the end of the fingers  
after using it.


I have hesitated between using it and not using it, but finally  
always seem to find an improvement after using it for a short time.
Apart from anything else, it certainly seemed to have cured the  
inflamed index finger.


I also said that it does not replace any of the lute exercises,  
scales or whatever, and most younger players, probably do not need it.


Le 26 févr. 08 à 13:21, Rob MacKillop a écrit :

In my experience, students tend to use ten times the amount of  
pressure and

energy than required, so when I see talk of finger strengtheners I get
worried. The great classical guitarist, David Russell, taught me an
invaluable lesson in this regard. Put your left hand index finger  
on any
note, say for example the fifth fret of the first string. Don't  
press it
down yet, just touch it with the fingertip. Start continuously  
plucking the
string. Obviously you get a muted note. Now slowly start adding  
pressure as
you move the string towards the fingerboard. Soon the note will  
sound well.
At that point, start decreasing the pressure back to where you  
started. You
are teaching your muscles to apply the minimum pressure needed to  
fret a

note. My bet it is that it is a LOT less pressure than you are used to
applying. Now try it with other fingers. Then try playing a scale  
without
open strings with this same technique. Go up and down the scale a  
few times
from zero pressure to just enough and back again. Do this at the  
start of

every practice session. Worked for me.

Your fingers are more than strong enough.

Rob

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

David
	As I said to Rob, it has nothing to do with strength or pressure,  
but all to do with suppleness and flexibility.
You will probably have that naturally, having continued to play. I  
had to get back into basic form, while fighting against the continued  
effects of age.
Also of course it warms the muscles up faster. I think everybody has  
a warm-up time, but as you get older, and if you have given up for a  
time, as I had, the warm up time seems to become much longer.
Strangely, it has given me much better control in raising the ring  
finger, when lying all the fingers cupped on a table. This is the  
opposite movement that you seem to make with

the gripmaster, but somehow it has had this effect.

I am quite aware that any physical activity, golf, tennis, piano  
playing, or even weight-lifting calls for the practitioner to learn  
how to use the minimum of effort for the maximum of result.
I well remember that the best javelin throws I ever made, were the  
ones in which I was the most relaxed and felt as though I was using  
the least effort.
Nevertheless if your joints are seized up, there is no way you can  
acquire the degree of relaxation that is required while you are  
contending with inflammation, as Rob will have found out recently.


In fact, I try to begin the day with a whole series of shoulder  
exercises, to try to counteract the traces of three serious bouts of  
"frozen shoulder".
Only then do I use the Gripmaster, and actually not every day.  
Interestingly, it has made a slight difference to the shape of my  
hands and fingers, which look and feel more lean and supple.


Makes me sound a complete wreck (when I reread what I have just  
said). You might wonder why I even bothered to take up the lute again.
Well, one of my sisters on retirement has taken up cliff climbing.  
She had never ever done this in it her life before, and actually it  
was through her, I heard of the Gripmaster.

Now, I am not sure who was the more foolhardy of the two of us!

Anthony






Le 26 févr. 08 à 13:36, LGS-Europe a écrit :


Your fingers are more than strong enough.


With pressure, less is more. It is easy to flex a muscle fast. Put  
your hand
in a flame, get stung by a bee or catch a falling lute to try. But  
it takes
time to relax a muscle, we all know that. So to develop speed on a  
lute, we
have to minimize our pressure. I can put down a finger fast enough,  
but I
cannot lift it fast enough. With less pressure, I can lift faster  
and my

speed will improve.
Another reason why less pressure is better: with more pressure we  
feel less.
Left and right hand shape the tone together, the only feedback we  
get before
we actually pluck the string is through the contact of our  
fingertips. If we
use more muscle, we feel less. Keep your sense of touch alive by  
using less
pressure, and your tone will improve if you 'listen' to the  
feedback your

fingertips give you.

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
Had I wanted to do a Schuman on you, I would have suggested this  
contraption,
http://tinyurl.com/2uv88o

However, I was addressing Alan Hoyle, who is no beginner in a hurry  
to make progress, but apparently in a similar state to how I was,  
struggling not to go backwards.
" In some cases,
it's simply a matter of stiffer joints lacking the necessary  
nimbleness; but
I think that there is something else: perhaps the muscle-memory is less
efficient in a 60 year-old than one half his age."

The Gripmaster could only help with the first half of this sentence.  
I agree with the second part and can see no cure for that except more  
exercises on the lute.

Nevertheless, to be positive, I regularly see a man of seventy, who  
as a Doctor had little time to play while he had his practise, but  
since retirement he now puts in five hours a day.
I have definitely seen him improve in the last two years. Yet, he  
tells me he has never done a lute exercise in his life.
Regards
Anthony





Le 26 fevr. 08 =E0 14:18, Rob MacKillop a ecrit :

> OK, Anthony. I'm sure you are sensitive to what is required, and I  
> am pleased that you are finding progress and improvement. Others  
> might not be so - dare I say - intelligent in their use of it,  
> especially younger students hoping to play fast.
>
> The ghost of Schumann enters Stage Left...
>
> Rob


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Rank Amateur [ finger tip feed back]

[Anthony Hind]

	Interesting your "finger tips feed-back" idea. It is often said that  
blind people make sensitive musicians because of their increased  
sense of hearing, but perhaps it is just as much to do with their  
increased sense of touch.
After reading Matthew Wadsworths article on learning music by heart.  
I tried closing my eyes after reading a tablature passage, and then  
trying to play it from memory (of which I have little); and I was  
very surprised to find that my fingers seemed to know better where to  
go than I did. Perhaps we should play more often with our eyes shut  
to develop this sense


I suppose this might explain the skills of a deaf musician such as  
Evelyn Glenny, who apparently plays barefooted so she can feel the  
vibrations for her cues on stage and no doubt the feedback from her  
percussion instruments; apparently there are also a number of  deaf  
pianist who must use this sensitivity to the feel of sound wave  
pressure to monitor their playing.


	As you well know, one of the pleasures from playing with gut, is the  
feel of the texture, and that trigger-like springiness, that gives  
you the impression that you have just that little more control and  
even time before you (well, in my case, if not in yours, that is a  
very nice sensation, "time before you"). That was also what a tennis  
player told me, as I mentioned here, once before. That little delay,  
as the ball struck the gut, gave him the impression he had time to  
direct the ball, and the resonant sound allowed him to monitor  
whether he had struck it correctly.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I feel any increased suppleness in the finger  
joints, goes in that same direction, shock absorbers; but that could  
lead us back to Schumacher...

Anthony

Le 26 févr. 08 à 13:36, LGS-Europe a écrit :


Your fingers are more than strong enough.


With pressure, less is more. It is easy to flex a muscle fast. Put  
your hand
in a flame, get stung by a bee or catch a falling lute to try. But  
it takes
time to relax a muscle, we all know that. So to develop speed on a  
lute, we
have to minimize our pressure. I can put down a finger fast enough,  
but I
cannot lift it fast enough. With less pressure, I can lift faster  
and my

speed will improve.
Another reason why less pressure is better: with more pressure we  
feel less.
Left and right hand shape the tone together, the only feedback we  
get before
we actually pluck the string is through the contact of our  
fingertips. If we
use more muscle, we feel less. Keep your sense of touch alive by  
using less
pressure, and your tone will improve if you 'listen' to the  
feedback your

fingertips give you.

David



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [Exerciser for aging fingers]

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
	I am pleased to have triggered so much agreement, although, in none  
of my messages did I mention strength, just "keeping ones limbs very  
supple", which I (like Father William) believe is essential for  
relaxation and lack of tension.
Although I must note, that in the exercises, I was given for "frozen  
shoulder" syndrome, there are two parts: Initially raise the  
shoulders as high as possible in a typical French shoulder shrugging  
gesture (Marabou stork fashion), and secondly lower them as far as  
they will go, while pulling them down as though out of their sockets.  
Following this, of course, when the joint is freer, it becomes  
possible to relax.


What one does before playing to loosen, warm up and prepare oneself  
to play,  might have little to do with what one actually does while  
playing.


in all physical (and even intellectual) activities, economy of  
gesture and elegance is what one should strive not too hard for. I am  
sure we all agree about that.

Anthony



Le 26 févr. 08 à 15:07, Edward Martin a écrit :

I agree.  I also teach the same exercise.  One should play with as  
little

tension as possible, as opposed to use of strength.

ed



At 12:21 PM 2/26/2008 +, Rob MacKillop wrote:

In my experience, students tend to use ten times the amount of  
pressure and
energy than required, so when I see talk of finger strengtheners I  
get

worried. The great classical guitarist, David Russell, taught me an
invaluable lesson in this regard. Put your left hand index finger  
on any
note, say for example the fifth fret of the first string. Don't  
press it
down yet, just touch it with the fingertip. Start continuously  
plucking the
string. Obviously you get a muted note. Now slowly start adding  
pressure as
you move the string towards the fingerboard. Soon the note will  
sound well.
At that point, start decreasing the pressure back to where you  
started. You
are teaching your muscles to apply the minimum pressure needed to  
fret a
note. My bet it is that it is a LOT less pressure than you are  
used to
applying. Now try it with other fingers. Then try playing a scale  
without
open strings with this same technique. Go up and down the scale a  
few times
from zero pressure to just enough and back again. Do this at the  
start of

every practice session. Worked for me.

Your fingers are more than strong enough.




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: [BAROQU E-LUTE] de Visée

[Anthony Hind]

Rob
As far as I know, so unhappy with his playing was Pascal Monteilhet  
(or at least, not progressing enough ... I know the feeling), that he  
sold all his lutes and set off for a Pacific island (or similar).
I understand that this was the second time he did something of the  
sort. An intellectual television magazine (oxymoron?) which is often  
associated with French Baroque music and evenents, likened his  
departure to that of Rimbaud or of Gaugin:

  fff Telerama - Robert de Visee - Monteilhet

. Le francais Pascal Monteilhet a beaucoup oeuvre pour la  
renaissance du theorbe. Aujourd'hui comme Rimbaud ou Gauguin, cet  
explorateur-ne s'embarque loin de l'Europe, pour d'autres aventures,  
maritimes et exotiques. Mais il nous laisse un formidable temoignage  
de la noblesse de son instrument et de son repertoire. .. Les suites  
pour theorbe de Robert de Visee se situent dans le sillage hauturier  
de d'Anglebert et de Couperin... Le theorbe  Un animal de haute cour.  
Et cet (ultime) recital? Une balise d'allegresse, un fanal d'espoir.  
Gilles Macassar - Telerama 15 mars 2006 (I removed the accents, I  
think).

But perhaps he has come back. Does anyone know?

Anthony


Le 28 fevr. 08 =E0 17:46, Rob MacKillop a ecrit :

> Strange booklet notes:
>
> ''...like everyone else, I use strings which do not sound as they  
> should.
> They produce a sound that is admittedly compelling and powerful,  
> but to my
> ears too flashy, indeed vulgar, and which hinders the transmission  
> of the
> discourse.''
>
> So why do it? - might seem like the obvious question. I guess, like  
> me,
> Pascal prefers gut, but is not satisfied with the current state of gut
> strings. I think string makers have cracked the manufacture of  
> trebles and
> mid-range. Still not convinced about those basses. I hope Mimmo's new
> strings will change our minds. I look forward to trying them  
> someday. Keep
> up the good work, Mimmo and Dan and whoever else is experimenting.
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to say Pascal's strings sound vulgar, and I  
> wouldn't
> record if that were the case. And I certainly wouldn't rubbish my  
> own sound
> in my own booklet notes. Ah, the French are different...eh, Anthony?
>
> I saw Pascal in Glasgow once, and he was brilliant. No vulgarity  
> anywhere.
>
> Rob
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] lute classes Hopkinson Smith

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Lutists,
I would like to send you a message from Miguel Serdoura, announcing  
a lute class and concert with Hopkinson Smith in Aixe en Provence:

"Concert and Training course for lute with Hopkinson Smith, from the  
22nd to the 25th of May 2008 in Aix-en-Provence"

Thursday May 22, 2008, concert at 8h30 p.m, at the Musee des Tapisseries
Friday 23, Saturday 24, Sunday May 25 2008, training course
Prices of the training course with the concert : players: 230 Euro  , down  
payment : 110 Euro  ; listeners: 60 Euro , down payment: 30 Euro  ; Obligatory  
adhesion AMAP: 15 Euro 
Free lodging and meals. We will communicat you a list of the hotels  
at the time of your inscription. Information and inscription:  
Ateliers de Musiques Aix-Provence (AMAP) 6 rue Matheron-13100- Aix-en- 
Provence . Tel. : 04 42 63 01 05 /  04 42 38 91 78  ou  06 76 39 79  
55  /  06 21 71 40 80. E-Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Anthony
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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Silvius Leopold Weiss: The Silesian Master of Lute

[Anthony Hind]

No, it seems to be a new one, as there is a new critical review of  
it, in the French lute society magazine.

The review is very positive.
Anthony


Le 9 mai 08 à 15:06, Edward Martin a écrit :


I noticed on Amazon what appears to be a new lute recording by Jakob
Lindberg, Silvius Leopold Weiss: The Silesian Master of Lute.  I am
wondering if it is a reprint of his other Weiss record recorded on his
original lute, or if it is new.

Amazon does not say what is on the record.  Does anyone know?

ed



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: MANUSCRIT VAUDRY DE SAIZENAY

[Anthony Hind]

I sent a message to Minkoff, some months ago asking about the Vaudry  
de Sazenay reprint, that they announce. I hve just received the  
following reply. Perhaps, if all those hoping for a copy of the  
manuscript write to Minkoff, it might come sooner.
Anthony

Debut du message reexpedie :

> De : "minkoff-editions" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date : 14 mai 2008 15:42:29 HAEC
> =C0 : "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Objet : Rep : MANUSCRIT VAUDRY DE SAIZENAY
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> We have not yet a date for the reprint of Vaudry de Saizenay. We  
> keep your demande on files and shall not miss to write to you when  
> available.
>
> Thannk you for your interest.
>
> =C9ditions Minkoff
> 8, rue Eynard, 1205 Gen=E8ve
> tel. +41 22 310 46 60 - fax + 41 22 310 28 57
> e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.minkoff-editions.com
> FRANCE: Minkoff France Editeur
> A la R=E8gle d'Or, librairie musicale  specialisee
> 23, rue de Fleurus. F - 75006 Paris
> tel. +33 1 45 44 94 33 - fax +33 1 45 44 94 30
> e-mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.minkoff-editions.com
>

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] record/method

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Baroque lutists
  Miguel Serdoura has given me the follwing message to transmit to you:
_

Barricades Mystérieuses - The first solo recording of Miguel Serdoura  
will be available in November 2008 on the Deutch Label Brilliant  
Classics (www.brilliantclassics.com) The repertoire of this recording  
will be dedicated to the Chaconnes, Passacailles and Rondos of the  
French lute composers Ennemond Gautier, Jacques Gallot, François  
Couperin, the Belgian Jacques de Saint-Luc, and the German lute  
composers Silvius Léopold Weiss and David Kellner. You can order it  
by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

_

Baroque Lute Method - by Miguel Serdoura. - A practical guide for  
beginning and advanced lutenists - Paris, 2007. 356 pages.
A new edition will be available by the Italian Editor UT ORPHEUS  
(www.utorpheus.com) in October / November 2008, in English and in  
French ! You can order it by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Anthony
--

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: record/method

[Anthony Hind]

Jim
I think there may be a few changes to the written text, even in  
French, but I don't think the music examples have been altered,  
unless there are a few minor corrections, as often is the case in a  
new edition.

I have asked Miguel about that.
Anthony

Le 24 août 08 à 03:25, Jim Abraham a écrit :

   I was lucky enough to have ordered the first edition from the  
French

   Lute Society almost immediately after release, before its untimely
   demise in anticipation of the new, bilingual, edition. Will the  
second

   edition be identical to the first (aside from the language)?

   Regards,

   Jim
   On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Anthony Hind <[1] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   wrote:

 Dear Baroque lutists
  Miguel Serdoura has given me the follwing message to
 transmit to you:
 _
 Barricades Mysterieuses - The first solo recording of Miguel
 Serdoura
 will be available in November 2008 on the Deutch Label Brilliant
 Classics ([2]www.brilliantclassics.com) The repertoire of this
 recording
 will be dedicated to the Chaconnes, Passacailles and Rondos of  
the

 French lute composers Ennemond Gautier, Jacques Gallot, Franc,ois
 Couperin, the Belgian Jacques de Saint-Luc, and the German lute
 composers Silvius Leopold Weiss and David Kellner. You can  
order it

 by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 _
 Baroque Lute Method - by Miguel Serdoura. - A practical guide for
 beginning and advanced lutenists - Paris, 2007. 356 pages.
 A new edition will be available by the Italian Editor UT ORPHEUS
 ([4]www.utorpheus.com) in October / November 2008, in English  
and in

 French ! You can order it by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 Anthony
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   2. http://www.brilliantclassics.com/
   3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   4. http://www.utorpheus.com/
   5. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: record/method

[Anthony Hind]

Jim
Miguel replies that there are a lot of small but important  
corrections !
Also, the quality of the printing is "incomparablyt" better !

Anthony

Le 24 août 08 à 03:25, Jim Abraham a écrit :

>I was lucky enough to have ordered the first edition from the  
> French
>Lute Society almost immediately after release, before its untimely
>demise in anticipation of the new, bilingual, edition. Will the  
> second
>edition be identical to the first (aside from the language)?
>
>Regards,
>
>Jim
>    On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Anthony Hind <[1] 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>
>  Dear Baroque lutists
>   Miguel Serdoura has given me the follwing message to
>  transmit to you:
>  _
>  Barricades Mysterieuses - The first solo recording of Miguel
>  Serdoura
>  will be available in November 2008 on the Deutch Label Brilliant
>  Classics ([2]www.brilliantclassics.com) The repertoire of this
>  recording
>  will be dedicated to the Chaconnes, Passacailles and Rondos of  
> the
>  French lute composers Ennemond Gautier, Jacques Gallot, Franc,ois
>  Couperin, the Belgian Jacques de Saint-Luc, and the German lute
>  composers Silvius Leopold Weiss and David Kellner. You can  
> order it
>  by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>  _
>  Baroque Lute Method - by Miguel Serdoura. - A practical guide for
>  beginning and advanced lutenists - Paris, 2007. 356 pages.
>  A new edition will be available by the Italian Editor UT ORPHEUS
>  ([4]www.utorpheus.com) in October / November 2008, in English  
> and in
>  French ! You can order it by e-mail ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>  Anthony
>  --
>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>  [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>--
>
> References
>
>1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>2. http://www.brilliantclassics.com/
>3. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>4. http://www.utorpheus.com/
>5. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Baroque lute method

[Anthony Hind]

Dear lutenists
 Miguel Serdoura's Baroque lute method will be out again in  
November, at Ut Orpheus


Baroque Lute Method - 356 pages. Paris, 2008, Ut Orpheus.
Available in November 2008, in English and in French.
Price : 70€
Order : www.utorpheus.com

Anthony


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque lute method

[Anthony Hind]

I forgot to give you the mailing address through which the method can  
be bought.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AH

Le 17 oct. 08 à 21:16, Anthony Hind a écrit :

> Dear lutenists
>  Miguel Serdoura's Baroque lute method will be out again in  
> November, at Ut Orpheus
>
> Baroque Lute Method - 356 pages. Paris, 2008, Ut Orpheus.
> Available in November 2008, in English and in French.
> Price : 70€
> Order : www.utorpheus.com
>
> Anthony
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Serdoura lute Method and new CD

[Anthony Hind]

Dear lutenists
Miguel Serdoura's new lute method is now available;
http://tinyurl.com/6j9vpy

and his new recording can be ordered from

http://tinyurl.com/55mnv5
Anthony



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Miguel Serdoura's Lute Method

[Anthony Hind]

Jim
According to Miguel the new edition contains corrections and other 
improvements. I have the old version, and I will probably buy the new 
one, and use the old one as my working copy, on which I will allow 
myself to pencil in LH indications.

Anthony

Le mardi, 2 déc 2008, à 21:12 Europe/Paris, Jim Abraham a écrit :


I have the first version, from the French lute society, which I think
is almost identical to the new, English, version, and I think it is
excellent.

Jim

On 12/2/08, Ken Brodkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi All,

I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to go through Miguel 
Serdoura's
Baroque lute method and can make some comments about it. I'm 
considering

purchasing it. I do have Satoh's method and Giesbert as well.

Thanks!

Ken



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Re Baroque lute method

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Baroque lutenists
   Miguel Serdoura has just told me that both his Baroque lute
method and his Baroque lute recording can be ordered from
Los Angeles Classical Guitars
1341 E. Colorado Blvd.
Pasadena CA 91106
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.lacg.net

Anthony
--

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] 2 Baroque Lute recordings

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Lutenists
 In the last month I have received two excellent Baroque lute
CDs, that very nicely complement each other. Both contain music by
Kellner, but the pieces do not overlap, and while Ed Martin's CD also
contains music by Conradi, in Miguel Serdoura's CD there is music by
well known French lutenists, E. Gautier and J. Gallot, but also "Les
Baricades Mysterieueses" by Francois Couperin. This can be played on
13c lute with little or no alteration. There are also two interesting
pieces by the Saint-Luc, along side two better known pieces by Weiss.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GugCgg1pL._SS400_.jpg
Extracts can be heard at
http://tinyurl.com/8zlqup

I do not want to compare these records, except to say that Ed Martin
is playing on a gut strung Frei style lute, which Dan Larson baroqued
from 7c to 11c, just as happened in the Baroque period. The recording
has been made by sound engineer, Jakob Larson (a member of the Larson
family?); and it succeeds in bringing out the subtle warm clarity of
Ed's gut-string playing. I rather suppose J L has a close knowledge
of lutes which has enabled him to make such an excellent recording:
at last a lute recording that sounds like a lute, not like an
amplified mandolin.

Miguel Serdoura is playing with nylgut and Aquila nylgut wirewounds;
however, his technique of damping the basses described on p.122 to
123 of his method, are such that I find no problem at all with basses
drowning the other voices (as so often seems to happen with
wirewounds). The sound engineer, Jiri Heger, works frequently with
small Baroque ensembles, such as those of William Christie,
http://www.musica-numeris.com/LEquipe/Lesing%C3%A9nieursduson/
Collaborateursr%C3%A9guliers/JiriHeger/tabid/175/language/en-US/
Default.aspx
and again, he seems to have had the necessary understanding of lute
sound, not to blur, in anyway, the pearl-like flowing clarity of
Miguel's playing.
I understand that little or no reverb was added, and only a slight
frequency tweaking was necessary to bring out the speed of the
initial attack, which was present on earphones, but slightly less so
on lofi speaker based systems.

I highly recommend both CDs, but do not want to try to compare the
style of these two lutenists. I would prefer to add some anecdotes to
show how both records pleasantly surprised the ears of some non-
specialists.

Ed Martin's CD:
Just as I received Ed Martin's CD, I had to leave Paris for a small
village 70 miles from Paris. While I was playing Ed's record to my
daughter, three of her local friends happened to drop in. All three
became very intent, wanting to know exactly what this beautiful music
could be: the composer, the instrument, etc. I found out later that
the young lady was an advanced viola student, while another was a
self taught rock and folk guitarist, but they did not have any deep
knowledge of lute music.
When it was mentioned that I had an 11c lute, similar to the one they
were hearing, they immediately wanted to see it, expressing amazement
at its lightness and beauty, but also admiration that this was the
type of instrument that could play such beautiful music.
I think the fact that Ed's playing "moved" this small group of non
specialists, tells us more about his record than would any words from
a lute amateur, such as myself.

Miguel's CD:
Just before I left Paris, I received the following message from a
great friend and colleague in linguistics, who is also a "melomane"
and audiophile, very partial to his Couperin, and to French Baroque
lute music.
  I have asked his permission to convey his message to you.


Paris, 22 decembre 2008

Dear Anthony,

Many thanks for the lovely record by Miguel Serdoura. As I told
you, I knew all the pieces,  included here, fairly well -with the
exception of the two lovely pieces by Jacques de Saint-Luc- but of
course Couperin's 'les baricades mysterieueses', the sixth piece of
his sixieme ordre, is probably one of the best known harpsichord
works of 18th century French music; however, I had never actually
heard it played on the lute and I was particularly impressed by
Serdoura's interpretation. As with all the other pieces in the
record, he plays it rather more slowly than all previous
interpretations known to me, and maybe because of that, with extreme
'retenue' and elegance. The same is true of his rendering of Ennemond
Gaultier's very well-known 'la cascade', which I also very much like.
This is much in the spirit of Hopkinson Smith's interpretation, I
find; although again Serdoura plays more slowly (by almost three
minutes actually, I just checked) and if possible, with even more
subtle 'retenue' than 'the baricades mysterieueses'. The dominant
impression of the record as a whole is for me one of nostalgic
elegance, well suited to my present mood and so pleasantly at odds
with the present scene, musical or otherwise!

Very best,

Jean-Yves"

Jean-Yves personally told me how much he had enjoyed this rec

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 2 Baroque Lute recordings

[Anthony Hind]

>> I've always wondered, to what does the title "Les Baricades
>> Mysterieueses" refer?
>> --ajn
>>

Apparently, it could be a "précieux" reference to a lady's eye- 
lashes. Miguel Serdourq's text, says the following: ", Miguel  
Serdoura has adopted a fairly slow tempo, in order to bring out the  
“mystery” of this piece, whose title may well evoke, in the “langage  
précieux”, “the fluttering eye-lashes of a lady ” — the eye-lashes,  
those “baricades“ which protect the mysteries of the soul, while  
hiding the “treacherous mirrors” that are the eyes.
Perhaps, the eye-lashes of "la belle homicide" , who strikes with a  
flutter of her eyes, at least it could be in this area of indirect  
precieux reference to  la femme fatale.

Best wishes

Anthony

> Le 28 déc. 08 à 16:19, Arthur Ness a écrit :
>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Anthony Hind" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 4:59 AM
>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] 2 Baroque Lute recordings
>>
>>
>> | Dear Lutenists
>> | In the last month I have received two excellent Baroque  
>> lute
>> | CDs, that very nicely complement each other. Both contain music by
>> | Kellner, but the pieces do not overlap, and while Ed Martin's CD
>> also
>> | contains music by Conradi, in Miguel Serdoura's CD there is  
>> music by
>> | well known French lutenists, E. Gautier and J. Gallot, but also  
>> "Les
>> | Baricades Mysterieueses" by Francois Couperin. This can be  
>> played on
>> | 13c lute with little or no alteration. There are also two
>> interesting
>> | pieces by the Saint-Luc, along side two better known pieces by
>> Weiss.
>> | http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GugCgg1pL._SS400_.jpg
>> | Extracts can be heard at
>> | http://tinyurl.com/8zlqup
>> |
>> <>
>>
>> I've always wondered, to what does the title "Les Baricades
>> Mysterieueses" refer?
>>
>> --ajn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


--

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: le Tocsein de Gautier

[Anthony Hind]

	Having just discussed the tempo of "La Cascade", with a friend who  
argued that it should not be too slow or you could lose the 'mimetic'  
cascading effect, I rather supposed "le tocsein", as a "gigue", might  
contain a mimetic rhythmic element.


However, I just had a message from Jean-Daniel Forget on this subject:
First he tells me, le tocsein, is the sound of a single bell struck  
rapidly: about two forced beats per second (according to the length  
and size of the clapper), giving a monochord sound that immediately  
draws attention. This was exactly my impression, and it reminds me  
that I have heard it in several French films.


Then J-D, suggests that the evocative element, if there is one, would  
not be a direct reference to the rhythm of the tocsein, but should  
rather  be looked for in terms of the tocsein as a (metaphoric)  
reference to  "sentiments amoureux", possibly the palpitating  heart- 
beat ("batant la chamade") of the lover thinking of his "belle", or  
of the alert of the cuckolded lover.


(J-D goes on to give an example of an expression "prescieux" using  
the term 'tocsein', but saying (in an appropriately "prescieux"  
manner) he would prefer not refer to the quotation that Pierre  
Desproges attributed to Cardinal de Richelieu, when complimenting the  
beauty of a  "dame de la cour" : "Madame, si ma robe était de plomb,  
vous entendriez sonner le tocsin !").
Madame, if my robe was made of lead, you would still hear "sonner le  
tocsin".


"J'ai toujours pense, en jouant ces pieces, que la reference va  
plutot vers un sentiment amoureux et doit être cherchee dans la Carte  
du Tendre
(comme dans presque toutes les pieces de cette epoque, d'ailleurs) ;  
par exemple, ce pourrait etre le cœur battant la
chamade de l'amoureux pensant a sa belle ou l'alerte de l'amant  
trompe! (Je me garderai bien de faire reference a la
citation que Pierre Desproges attribuait au Cardinal de Richelieu  
faisant compliment a la beaute d'une dame de la cour :
"Madame, si ma robe etait de plomb, vous entendriez sonner le  
tocsin !")."   J-D


J-D, however, then goes on to say that without the presence of a  
text, all speculation is possible.

Anthony



Le 30 déc. 08 à 11:16, Anthony Hind a écrit :

I agree that the gigue form, in French lute music could have  
determined the degree of imitation possible when evoking the  
tocsein. It might nevertheless be interesting to discover exactly  
what the rhythm of the bell-toll might have been that could have  
been imitated. I found this definition: "Tintement d’une cloche à  
coups pressés et redoublés pour donner l’alarme, pour avertir du  
feu, etc."  (so fast and double); however, I also found that the  
tocsein could have been originally given on a drum, and perhaps  
later was used for other warning notes
"probably originally meant a signal given by tap of drum, but  
subsequently always applied to a flourish or fanfare on a trumpet. "

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/270732
Anthony


Le 30 déc. 08 à 06:02, damian dlugolecki a écrit :



I quite agree with Jorge Torres.  After playing these pieces for a  
while it really seems to me the accents are duple; accent on the  
1st note of each semi-breve.


DD

Dear list:

A few thoughts concerning the French duple-meter gigue.

1) The two examples of Toxin are not in 4/4 there is no time  
signature
given.  They are probably both in Binarie mineur or "cut time" or  
2/2,

again, see Perrine's distinction between an allemande and a gigue in
his "pieces", p. 16-19.  This makes a huge difference in the way we
would play them.

2) In this repertoire, Allemandes and Gigues are, at times, almost
indistinguishable, as evidenced by Perrine's distinction between an
allemande and a gigue in his "pieces", p. 16-19

3)  There is no evidence to assume that these gigues should be played
very fast.

4) I would not force a a ternary subdivision as a uniform rhythm (6/8
or 12/8).  The French had a ternary, gigue-like genre: the canarie

5) It is very likely that notes inegales were used in these pieces,
but to insist on them throughout the piece in order to change the
rhythm to something that sounds more like 6/8 or 12/8 seems pedantic
to me.

All the best,
Jorge Torres

On Dec 28, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Mathias Rösel wrote:


I would imagine it could be binary.


Both Tocxin by Denis Gaultier and Toxin by Charles Mouton are  
gigues  in

4/4 metre. I'd go so far as to say that there's a relationship
discernible between the pieces of master and student in that  
both  gigues

have a very similar opening motif and both share the same rhythmic
pattern in each measure of their respective second halves, i. e.  
with
the bass note off-beat on 2nd half of 1st beat

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses

[Anthony Hind]

Sorry like David, replied to the wrong list

Dear Chris and All,
According to Miguel Serdoura (p111-123) in his Baroque lute  
method, there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He  
indicates the damping of a note with two small dots before it., and  
calls this effect "Tut".
"The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your  
Letter, (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your  
Fingers, and immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing  
you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter ..." Mace
Miguel goes on to say "In the works of Adam Falckenhagen and Johann- 
Georg Weichenberger, we find the sign (//) which, in our opinion,  
indicates the same effect."
Miguel considers that French musicians also used this technique, but  
preferred not to give indications, keeping as much as possible to  
themselves.


Miguel can't believe that harpsichordists used damping and sustain,  
but that lutists completely ignored this practice.


As to whether the use of wirewound and pure gut makes a difference,  
MS cites tests showing that where wirewounds have a sustain of about  
6 to 8 seconds, pure gut has about 2 to 3 seconds (loaded somewhere  
between, about  4 to 6, I would guess). Even so, Miguel argues "that  
this is still too long in passages in which the harmony may change in  
a fraction of a second".


I have heard pieces damped that seem to become too stacatto (loss of  
liason), and damping should not necessarilly be used just to avoid a  
clash (the clash might be desirable). However, a judicious use of  
damping could be part of the lute players panoply. Those who want to  
verify Miguel's theory could listen to his latest recording, and see  
whether he has used damping to good effect.

Bets wishes to all
Anthony

Le 1 janv. 09 à 16:54,  a écrit :


I don't know whether its a modern practice.  Absence
of written evidence may mean that it was done so often
that it didn't need mentioning.

Even with modern strings, I'm becoming convinced that
we fixate on it a little too much.  It is much more
obvious for the player than for the listener.  Since
the lute has such a quick attack and rapid sustain,
what a player imagines sounding like an out of control
pedaled grand piano often sounds pleasantly resonant
to someone in front of the lute, even up close.  This
is particularly true for fairly slow moving lines or
bass parts that move in thirds, fourths or fifths.

I'm speaking of maybe 60-75% of general bass parts.
One still has to put in the effort to articulate a
line for musical reasons, however.  If its appropriate
to the character of a bass line we often have to go to
considerable lengths to keep it from sounding like a
nondescript legato mush.  In sections in which the
Affekt calls for a staccato character and there are a
lot of leaps, its a real workout for the thumb!

Chris


--- Edward Martin  wrote:


I believe it is a modern practice, to utilize the
damping effect.  I though
here actually is a mention in the Gallot
instructions about damping basses,
but (I believe we discussed this on this list 10
years ago) I had read this
in a modern translation, and others pointed out that
the translation into
English was faulty, so my previous argument in favor
of finding a reference
to damping was wrong.

So, to answer your question, the old treatises do
not mention damping
basses, anywhere.  Yes, I think it is a modern
practice, to help deal with
wound metal bass course, which have too much
brightness and sustain,
requiring we must do something to tame them down.

Since about 1995, I have played only gut on baroque
lute, and I have
forgotten how to dampen basses, because it is
absolutely unnecessary.

Happy NY to you, too!

ed



At 02:36 PM 1/1/2009 +0100, David van Ooijen wrote:


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Could it be that the damping of bass strings for

baroque lute, to

which much attention is given in many if not all

modern methods for

the baroque lute, is a 20th century phenomenon that

has to do with

modern bass strings? Or are there historical

sources mentioning this

practice?

David - happy 2009 to all. Here's my card:


http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/homepage_p.html


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses

[Anthony Hind]

Sorry same problem wrong list

David, Miguel Serdoura's pages are 122-124, and not the ones I just  
gave.

I am only forwarding the point of view expressed there. It would be  
interesting to record a passage on a gut strung lute, following the  
Miguel's dampling indications, testing how this sounds when the  
basses are stopped as he indicates, and when they aren't. Benjamin  
Narvey did play a piece in that way, but I think he was playing his  
own lute with wirewounds, not mine.

Of course only certain basses notes are indicated as damped,  
otherwise the result would be excessively sacatto.

Le 1 janv. 09 à 18:49, David van Ooijen a écrit :

> Thanks to all for their quotes from historical sources. My immediate
> question is answered, but I welcome an ongoing discussion, of course.
>
>> there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He  
>> indicates the
>> damping of a note with two small dots before it., and calls this  
>> effect
>> "Tut".
>> "The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your  
>> Letter,
>> (which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your Fingers, and
>> immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing you  
>> suddenly take
>> away the sound of the Letter ..." Mace
>
>
> Sounds to me like an indication for staccato.

Perhaps, looking at how Mace used this sign, if there are extant  
examples, would answer your question (perhaps the // of Falckenhagen  
and Weicheberg also?).
I don't have access at present to any tablature of Mace in which this  
appears.

There are at least two possible explanations, if this is indeed  
damping, and if it also applies to basses:
1) that this was only necessary with double-headed lutes that had  
bass extensions of the type played by Mace.
Indeed, there are indications that the long basses could be quite  
loud (Burwell), and Stephen Gottlieb confirmed this from
the double-headed lute that he recently made.
If we accept that Falckenhagen and Weichenberger also gave damping  
indications, we could argue perhaps that by then they were already  
using demi-filé (so neither case would be valid for the 11c lute).

2) That damping preexisted Mace and was also used on the 11c lute  
(but that no clear evidence now exists of this practice), and this  
was either necessary, a) because gut basses were more powerful than  
today (loaded?),
or b) simply because basses were always sacrificed when clarity of  
the mid was likely to be lost, whatever the quality of the basses.
The remarks in Burwell about only keeping the small eleventh, to  
avoid drowning the other voices seems to show that basses were quite  
powerful, but also readilly sacrificed, when ever the mid was in  
danger of being muddied.

I do agree that the technique is absoluely essential for wirewounds  
that have too much sustain, but has to be proved for gut loaded  
lutes. It could perhaps be argued by some that with gut strung lutes  
it is usually the lack of sustain that might be the challenge.

Of course it would be much easier if we can avoid damping, but  
perhaps we might be losing a small means of expression, however tiny  
that might seem.
Anthony







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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses

[Anthony Hind]

esonance of mid  
and treble strings.


No doubt, even in the French repertoire, loss of a bass-line through  
inadequate sustain, is more of a problem than confusion resulting  
from bass line overshoot, and inadequate damping. However, neither  
may have been desirable to the lutenist of the time.


however, looking swiftly over the manuscrit Barbe, I see that the  
sustain of stopped notes still seems to be noted (as in Welde), but I  
see very few that could be understood as including open string sustain.
This does seem a weakness in Miguel's analysis, but perhaps holding  
stopped courses and stopping open ones may have been considered as a  
different process. The first should be indicated whatever the lute  
and its strings, the second could have  been judged lute and string  
dependent, and therefore rarely, if ever marked.


In conclusion, we should perhaps not argue against historic damping  
of basses from the lack of sustain on some modern gut-strung lutes?  
While, the damping technique described by Miguel (even if non  
historic), is certainly a help for modern lutes strung with  
wirewounds; while historic lutes may have had sufficient sustain to  
also benefit from this technique. Of course, it is not because we  
judge damping, as in some way beneficial, that Baroque lutenists  
actually did use the technique.


In respect to all this, I am fortunate in having a lute with good  
homogenous sustain (as Bailes seems to think was the French ideal).  
The sound board, according to Stephen, being made of an old dry piece  
of material (which generally gives good sustain and clarity), and the  
lute being strung with loaded basses. As I have said before, these  
show good sustain themselves, and allow improved sympathetic  
resonance to the mid and treble, than either modern gut basses or  
wirewounds seem to do.
Thus, whether you consider loaded basses as historic or not, they do  
seem to achieve one of the goals that French lutenists were searching  
for: good open string resonance, and increased but homogenous  
sustain, for all voices.


Finalement, je vous invite a ecouter le CD de Miguel, up to you to  
judge what this technique achieves on a lute strung with wirewounds.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GugCgg1pL._SS400_.jpg
Extracts can be heard at
http://tinyurl.com/8zlqup

Bonne annee à tous

Anthony

















Le 1 janv. 09 à 23:34, Anthony Hind a écrit :


Sorry same problem wrong list

David, Miguel Serdoura's pages are 122-124, and not the ones I just
gave.

I am only forwarding the point of view expressed there. It would be
interesting to record a passage on a gut strung lute, following the
Miguel's dampling indications, testing how this sounds when the
basses are stopped as he indicates, and when they aren't. Benjamin
Narvey did play a piece in that way, but I think he was playing his
own lute with wirewounds, not mine.

Of course only certain basses notes are indicated as damped,
otherwise the result would be excessively sacatto.

Le 1 janv. 09 à 18:49, David van Ooijen a écrit :


Thanks to all for their quotes from historical sources. My immediate
question is answered, but I welcome an ongoing discussion, of course.


there is one explicit mention of damping in Mace (1676). He
indicates the
damping of a note with two small dots before it., and calls this
effect
"Tut".
"The tut is a Grace always with the Right hand ... strike your
Letter,
(which you intend shall be so Grac'd) with one of your Fingers, and
immediately clap on your next striking Finger, in doing you
suddenly take
away the sound of the Letter ..." Mace



Sounds to me like an indication for staccato.


Perhaps, looking at how Mace used this sign, if there are extant
examples, would answer your question (perhaps the // of Falckenhagen
and Weicheberg also?).
I don't have access at present to any tablature of Mace in which this
appears.

There are at least two possible explanations, if this is indeed
damping, and if it also applies to basses:
1) that this was only necessary with double-headed lutes that had
bass extensions of the type played by Mace.
Indeed, there are indications that the long basses could be quite
loud (Burwell), and Stephen Gottlieb confirmed this from
the double-headed lute that he recently made.
If we accept that Falckenhagen and Weichenberger also gave damping
indications, we could argue perhaps that by then they were already
using demi-filé (so neither case would be valid for the 11c lute).

2) That damping preexisted Mace and was also used on the 11c lute
(but that no clear evidence now exists of this practice), and this
was either necessary, a) because gut basses were more powerful than
today (loaded?),
or b) simply because basses were always sacrificed when clarity of
the mid was likely to be lost, whatever the quality of the basses.
The remarks in Burwell about only keeping the small eleventh, to
avoid drowning the other voic

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: damping of basses

[Anthony Hind]

Dear David and All

Miguel Serdoura has permitted me to send you his pages from his  
Baroque lute method on Damping the basses.

Best wishes
Anthony


Damping the basses

This subject, while somewhat conterversial, is of great importance to  
baroque lute technique. To the best of our knowledge, there is only  
one explicit reference, in prefaces and methods of the baroque era,  
to damping a note (though not a bass note) after playing it: Thomas  
Mace, in his Musick’s Monument  published in London in 1676,  
indicates the damping of a note by placing two small dots before it,  
and calls this effect “Tut”. “The Tut is a Grace, always with the  
Right Hand … strike your Letter, (which you intend shall be so  
Grac’d) with one of your Fingers, and immediately clap on your next  
striking Finger, upon the String which you struck; in which doing,  
you suddenly take away the sound of the Letter …”1 In the works of  
Adam Falckenhagen and Johann Georg Weichenberger, we find the sign  
( // ) which, in our opinion, indicates the same effect.



Rest stroke for the right-hand thumb

However, the only clear reference to the bass courses in this regard  
is the advice to always play the  basses with the right-hand thumb,  
and a rest stroke. Jacques Gallot, a 17th-century French lutenist and  
composer, gave the following advice in his Pièces de luth, composées  
sur différens modes, prefaced by a Méthode qu’il faut observer pour  
jouer proprement du luth, specifies, “Stop the thumb on all the  
strings below [the string which is immediately adjacent to and below  
the string just played] in order to avoid unwelcome sounds.  
Alessandro Piccinini, a 17th-century Italian lutenist and composer,  
wrote in the Avertimenti of his Libro primo d’intavolatura di liuto  
et di chitarrone, published in Bologna in 1623: “Each time a string  
is played, [the thumb] should be directed toward the soundboard in  
such a way that it always falls on the neighboring string”.2   
Finally, the 17th-century French lutenist and composer Denis Gautier  
wrote, in his Livre de Tablature des Pièces de Luth (ca. 1680), “One  
must also remember to stop the thumb on the letters where there are  
intervals with respect to the other letters that follow”.  Here, the  
word “interval”  does not mean a musical interval (third, fifth,  
etc.) but rather a lapse of time between a sound and the following  
sound played by the thumb.



Musical phrasing

Let us not, however, forget that it was common practice amongst the  
great lute masters to hide their most precious secrets. Thomas Mace  
proves this in the second chapter of Musick’s Monument: “The French  
(who were generally accounted Great Masters) seldom or never would  
prick their Lessons as They Play’d them, much less Reveal any thing  
(further than of necessity they must) to the thorough understanding  
of the Art …”3 We can therefore conclude that damping the basses was  
a widespread practice; your main guide, however, should be your own  
ear. You must above all learn to listen attentively to the harmonies  
and resonance of the instrument itself.

When performing a fugue on the organ or harpsichord, one can make its  
polyphonic voices perfectly clear by holding down or releasing the  
keys (or pedals) as required. Is it right, then, that one should  
sustain all the bass notes on the lute, with no regard to modulation  
or voice-leading? More to the point, is it conceivable that lutenists  
of the baroque era only thought of phrasing the melody line, leaving  
the bass line, a

parameter which is so important in the interpration of any  
composition, dependant on the thumb’s weight alone? The speed and  
timing with which a bass is damped can change the entire phrasing of  
the bass line (just as the bass flute in a consort will not play  
equal quarter notes, nor articulate all its notes the same way).

Keep in mind that tablature does not indicate the duration of the  
bass line or intermediate voices! By the same token, when we play a  
bass line that descends from the sixth to the thirteenth course,  
while following the advice of the baroque composers, that is, to use  
the rest stroke, each bass note is automatically damped. Therefore,  
why should that not be the case when the bass line moves in the  
opposite direction? That would be like asking a harpsichordist to  
play all his ascending scales legato, and all his descending scales  
staccato! Even worse, imagine the clarity of an organist’s phrasing  
if he left each key and pedal down every time he played an ascending  
scale!



Gut strings

In the 17th and 18th centuries, lutes were strung with gut strings.  
There are those who claim that lutenists of the baroque period did  
not damp their basses, since gut strings do not resonate long enough  
for sounds to become confused and for musical language to thus become  
incomprehensible. In 1983, Michèle Castellengo, a researcher for the  
Centre National de Recherche

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Le Fameux Corsair

[Anthony Hind]

Oups the dates don't work. I should have checked. I did not think a  
corsair could have been post Weiss.

In that case, it must be the following:

René Duguay-Trouin

René Duguay-Trouin was born in Saint-Malo in 1673, and the son of a  
rich ship owner took a fleet of 64 ships and was honoured in 1709 for  
capturing more than 300 merchant ships and 20 warships. He had a  
brilliant privateering and naval career and eventually became  
"Lieutenant-General of the Naval Armies of the King", i.e., admiral,  
(French:Lieutenant-Général des armées navales du roi), and a  
Commander in the Order of Saint-Louis. He died peacefully in 1736.

Anthony



Le 12 janv. 09 à 15:34, Anthony Hind a écrit :

I would think the most famous, and also the last French Corsair  
would have been Surcouf:$


I found this about him in wikipedia (although I always treat this  
source with caution, and I have not counterchecked it)

Anthony


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsair

"Robert Surcouf

Robert Surcouf was the last and best known corsair of Saint-Malo.  
Born in Saint-Malo in 1773, his father was a ship owner and his  
mother the daughter of a Captain. Ship's boy at 13 and corsair  
captain at 22 years old, and then — very much against his licence —  
for several years attacked ships including those of the French East  
India Company, or Compagnie Française des Indes. During the French  
revolution, the convention government disapproved of lettres de  
course, so Surcouf operated at great personal risk as a pirate  
against British shipping to India. Surcouf was so successful that  
he became a popular celebrity in France. After a brief early  
retirement Surcouf again operated against shipping to the Indes.  
Surcouf became a ship owner himself and died in Saint-Malo in 1827.  
There is a statue of him on public display."



Le 10 janv. 09 à 05:35, Edward Martin a écrit :


The sonata in F major by SL Weiss in the London MS has a strange
title.  The work is also included in the Dresden MS, but is not  
entitled Le

Fameux Corsair.

Does anyone have information as to the identity of the "famous  
pirate" ?


ed




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Le Fameux Corsair

[Anthony Hind]

I forgot to say surely it must be  Duguay-Trouin.
Anthony

Le 12 janv. 09 à 17:26, Anthony Hind a écrit :

Michel Cardin being both a French speaker and a specialist on  
Weiss, of course I bow to his greater knowledge, but wasn't  
Blackbeard a pirate, in modern French, Corsair is very much  
Privateer, not pirate.

And why would Weiss use the French tittle for Blackbeard?
As I said in my other message, Surcouf is of course too late, which  
quite surprised me. I copied the Wikipedia without looking at the  
dates. I hadn't realized that France used Corsairs so late.

Anthony

Le 12 janv. 09 à 16:00, Markus Lutz a écrit :


Dear Edward,
Michel Cardin gives two names in his description:
http://www.slweiss.de/London_unv/ge_3Description.pdf

"Of the more than ninety sonatas known to have been composed by  
Weiss, only The Infidel and no 22 were given poetic titles. As  
suggested by Douglas Alton Smith, the pirate in question was, in  
all probability, Blackbeard (Edward Teach), whose life and  
spectacular
death in 1718 were subject to intense journalistic coverage during  
the lifetime of Weiss. Another candidate would have been René  
Duguay-Trouin, a privateer of the same period who

excelled in swashbuckling bravado of the same sort."

Also in the end of the 17th century the first books on pirates  
appeared:

Alexandre Olivier Exquemelin, Histoire des Frères de la Côte (1699)
Daniel Defoe, Life, Adventures and Piracies of Captain Singleton  
(1720)


The first one were translated to German and English very soon.  
Probably Defoe would be too late, as "Fameaux Corsaire" probably  
was written 1720   or in the beginning of 1721.


Best regards
Markus


Anthony Hind schrieb:
I would think the most famous, and also the last French Corsair  
would have been Surcouf:$
I found this about him in wikipedia (although I always treat this  
source with caution, and I have not counterchecked it)

Anthony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsair
"Robert Surcouf
Robert Surcouf was the last and best known corsair of Saint-Malo.  
Born in Saint-Malo in 1773, his father was a ship owner and his  
mother the daughter of a Captain. Ship's boy at 13 and corsair  
captain at 22 years old, and then — very much against his licence  
— for several years attacked ships including those of the French  
East India Company, or Compagnie Française des Indes. During the  
French revolution, the convention government disapproved of  
lettres de course, so Surcouf operated at great personal risk as  
a pirate against British shipping to India. Surcouf was so  
successful that he became a popular celebrity in France. After a  
brief early retirement Surcouf again operated against shipping to  
the Indes. Surcouf became a ship owner himself and died in Saint- 
Malo in 1827. There is a statue of him on public display."

Le 10 janv. 09 à 05:35, Edward Martin a écrit :

The sonata in F major by SL Weiss in the London MS has a strange
title.  The work is also included in the Dresden MS, but is not  
entitled Le

Fameux Corsair.

Does anyone have information as to the identity of the "famous  
pirate" ?


ed




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202




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Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
Mail mar...@gmlutz.de

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Le Fameux Corsair

[Anthony Hind]

Oh well, I just thought of searching specifically for "Fameux  
corsaire barbe Barbe Noire", and I found that things are less clear  
than I fist thought.


In a text from figaro international, Barbe Noire is constantly called  
pirate, " le plus redoutable pirate", but it seems that he started  
out as a "corsaire" (privateer):
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/ 
2009/01/31/01003-20090131ARTFIG00097-barbe-noire-le-diable-fumant-.php
"il s'engage de 1702 à 1713, durant la guerre de succession  
d'Espagne, sur un bâtiment corsaire anglais au service de la reine  
Anne."


So he was first a privateer and then a pirate. So it could be either  
man as Michel Cardin is right to say.
Indeed, both  (Black beard/Duguay-Trouin) seem to have been engaged  
as Corsaires (privateers) in the War of Succession, on opposing sides


Where would Weiss' sympathy lie, perhaps there might be a clue there?  
(probably with the alliance against France?)
On the other hand, there is that best selling account of Duguay- 
Trouin's exploits, so without more evidence...


In more popular texts, I found that corsaire and pirate are indeed  
confused, but would Weiss not have used the more "savante" expression  
(court French)?
If it was Barbe Noire, Weiss would surely be referring to his first  
career as privateer?


Best wishes
Anthony


Le 12 janv. 09 à 22:01, Bernd Haegemann a écrit :





Quite so, but he is not a corsair,


Corsaire. s. m. Pirate, escumeur de mer

from
Dictionnaire de L'Académie française, 1st Edition (1694)

best wishes
Bernd


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Benjamin and Markus

Le 14 janv. 09 à 10:49, Markus Lutz a écrit :

> Miguel has told me something about different barring of French  
> eleven course lutes and later baroque lutes. So that might also be  
> a difference of sound. Maybe others can say something on that.
> Unfortunately I also haven't been able to test that ...
>
> Best regards,
> Markus

There have been discussions on the issue of barring (fan versus J- 
barring) on this list, but I don't think there is any automatic  
relation between swan-necks and fan-barring, and rider lutes with J- 
barring.
It might be difficult to be sure, as many such lutes may have been  
retabled and rebarred at some time.

I think there may be several theories about the reasons fro the  
development of fan-barring.

Hypothesis 1, mechanic: Stephen Gottlieb told me that fan-barring  
developed simply to counteract the pulling force that additional  
number of strings apply to the sound-board through the bridge.

Hypothesis 2, musical, increased bass: both increasing the bass  
courses and adopting fan barring were part of the same research into  
the bass register (plumbing the depths) in late German Baroque music.  
Removing the J-bar releases more bass resonance, possibly at the  
expense of some clarity. The fan barring allows the table to move  
almost as a piston, which could reinforce the fundamental, while the  
J-bar would tend to break-up the fundamental into its components  
waves giving richer harmonics.

Wolfgang Emmerich said the following : "Generally the j-bars on  
Renaissance lutes were used to break the bass into its treble-parts  
to keep the leading role especially of the chantarelle  - to have an  
optimal balance between treble and bass. With fan-barring the bass  
gets stronger and accordingly treble loses  in relation towards a  
stronger bass. But in baroque music it must have been more important  
to" revel " in chords."

van Edwards : "Internally, the barring structure behind the bridge  
was altered by these makers. Starting with an increase in the number  
of little treble-side fan bars, finally the characteristic J bar on  
the bass side of the renaissance lutes was removed and various kinds  
of fan-barring were introduced right across this area of the  
soundboard. These seem to have the effect of increasing the bass  
response. The main transverse bars were also made slightly smaller  
and more even in height, maybe with the same intention."

Don't lest us forget that the thickness of the soundboard is  
distributed differently with both barring types: generally, I  
believe,  with fan-barring, the soundboard is thicker towards the  
bridge and to the middle; while with J-
barring, the soundboard is thicker on the edges and thinner to the  
middle. I imagine, if this is so, it could also play a role in  
determining the way the resonances are amplified by the movement of   
the soundboard.
It is possible that if it is thicker to the middle, some of the more  
complex wave patterns might be damped, while if it is thinner in the  
middle, perhaps a more complex pattern can develop.

Hypothesis 2 would suggest that it would be likely to find swan- 
necked lutes with fan barring, as both tend to reinforce the bass  
register.
Hypothesis 1 might suggest that fan-barring would be likely on any  
lute with a large number of courses, be they swannecked or rider,  
depending on the tension at which the strings were kept.

Hypothesis 3 musical, increased sustain : Bailes tells us in lute  
news No 81 that old lutes with mature wood (so beloved by French  
Baroque and even later German Baroque lutenists) give much more  
sustain than new lutes can hope to do (unless possibly they have  
their tables loaded with salts, Mimmo Peruffo). Around 1730, there  
could have been a penury of such lutes, if so, perhaps lute-makers  
attempted to discover a new way of obtaining this sustain by altering  
the barring. It seems that fan-barring does give greater sustain, but  
in some cases at the expense of clarity.

Michael Bocchicchio said in relation to the question concerning the  
Rauwolf fan-barring

" Thinning the edges of a sound board and leaving the center thicker  
( approx. 1.8 mm at center tapering to 1.3 at edges) does cause the  
sound board to act as or similar to a
speaker cone.  It stands to reason that fan bracing would lend itself  
to this type of thicknessing. With this type of thicknessing and fan  
bracing, the sound board resonates more like a singe plate causing a  
more homogeneous sustained sound with fewer partials. ---Very  
pleasing to the modern ear."

(Mimmo Peruffo told me that he had made two 13c Baroque lutes that  
were identical except that one had fan barring, and the other J- 
barring. In the case of the fan-barring he found the basses were too  
free and unbalanced and out of control.)

However, this does not always the case, Jakob Lindberg says that his  
Rauwolf has excellent sustain and clarity (but it is 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13 (barring)

[Anthony Hind]

Matthias, thanks for your comments.
Le 14 janv. 09 à 18:56, Mathias Rösel a écrit :

>> There have been discussions on the issue of barring (fan versus J-
>> barring) on this list, but I don't think there is any automatic
>> relation between swan-necks and fan-barring,
>
> Well, there is. Provided that original swan-necked lutes are late, you
> may well expect fan-barring. Rebuilt instruments like e. g. Martin
> Hoffmann are exceptions to the rule.

Yes, but the question is whether there is a necessary relation  
between the two (swan necked structure and fan-barring), or whether  
the two new tendancies just partly overlap.
When you say,  "you may well expect fan-barring." this is not a  
necessary motivated relation.
>
>> and rider lutes with J- barring.
>
> No, rider lutes with fan-barring! As for reasoning, see above.

That most rider lutes are j-barred (if they are earlier than  
swannecked lutes) would not come as a surprise, but is this as  
systematic as you suggest?
> It seems some Railich lutes were built with fan-barring, in a  
> period, before 13c rider lutes were created (if Wolfgang Emmerich  
> is to be believed).
Furthermore, we have the Rauwolf that would be an early case of fan  
barring on a Renaissance lute according to Michael Lowe.
This may be questioned, but then perhaps the fan barring dates from  
the period of the Rauwolf as a baroqued 11c lute, which is still a  
problem for a systematic relation beween fan-barring and swannecking  
(if I dare call it that).

Now, it may well be that modern swanneck lutes are almost always  
built with fan-barring (although that was not the case with  
Benjamin's Widham). and that modern bass rider lutes tend to be built  
with J-barring, but this does not prove the historic correspondence.

For example, some old Maler lutes were given swanneck extentions, I  
believe, while others were given bass riders (I am talking about  
after 1700). Would it be true that all those with swannecks were  
automaitically altered to fan-barring?
> .
>> Hypothesis 1, mechanic: Stephen Gottlieb told me that fan-barring
>> developed simply to counteract the pulling force that additional
>> number of strings apply to the sound-board through the bridge.
>
> Stabilisation of the soundboard may be a side-effect but was by no  
> means
> the purpose. J-bars and fan bars are intended to have an impact on the
> sound of the bass courses.

Very good, I am just reporting one hypothesis, and it may be only  
partly correct, or quite wrong.
>
>> Hypothesis 2, musical, increased bass: both increasing the bass
>> courses and adopting fan barring were part of the same research into
>> the bass register (plumbing the depths) in late German Baroque music.
>
> What qualifies as late? Fan-barring shows up as early as around 1700.
Possibly earlier, see Rauwolf. This is just another hypothesis, and  
not my point of view. However, I should have added, finally coming  
together in late German Baroque music, etc...
>
>> Hypothesis 2 would suggest that it would be likely to find swan-
>> necked lutes with fan barring, as both tend to reinforce the bass
>> register.
>
> So why did you state the opposite above?
This is not a statement of fact, but a hypothesis (not my own) with  
the logical outcome that I describe immediately above : fan-barring  
and swan-necked lutes should be the exactly same set (if the  
hypothesis is not to be partly disproved).
I did not say the oppositie above, I said there was probably no  
automatic, i.e. necessary relation between the two. That does not  
preclude a combining tendancy leading to two overlapping sets.
>
>> Hypothesis 1 might suggest that fan-barring would be likely on any
>> lute with a large number of courses, be they swannecked or rider,
>> depending on the tension at which the strings were kept.
>
> So why did you state the opposite above?
Again, this is the logical outcome of a hypothesis. You have  
suggested that it does not hold (you say bass rider lutes do not have  
fan-barring). I am not sure things are so clear-cut, but I may be wrong.
If you are right, and 13 course bass rider lutes and swan necked  
lutes tend to have the same tension, then hypothesis 1, in its  
strongest form is disproved.

All I am doing here is to try to state hypotheses clearly to see what  
evidence might disprove them. Unfortunately the evidence is probably  
not as clear as one would like (barring is not always easy to date),  
or this would be quite easy to do.
Also it is far from certain that we should take the strongest forms  
of these hypotheses. We are probably dealing with tendancies that  
give overlapping sets, but not the same sets: ie there is probably  
not a one to one relation between fan barring and swannecked lutes.

Had this been the case, I presume that Grant Tomlinson would have  
built Benjamin's Widham fan-barred from the outset.
Also we have examples of Railich and Rauwolf lutes today, that are  
not swannecked yet apparently work bett

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 11 or 13 (barring)

[Anthony Hind]

	I suppose to the three hypotheses, mentioned in my previous message,  
I should add something about the apparent success of demi-filé,  
probably around the same time that swannecks became "popular".
There are arguments about whether the extension on swan-necked lutes  
had pure gut or demifilé, or wehether these lutes might have been  
partially strung in demi-filé (see Mimmo Peruffo), but presumably the  
reason that demi-filé finally caught on, around that time, while it  
seems to have been around for at least fifty years, might also be  
related to an enthusiasm for increased treble bass polarity  
(hypothses 2); unless the technique for loading strings had been  
lost, and demifilé finally won by default.


Relating to a strong interpretation of hypothesis 1, (that there  
could be a necessary relation between a large number of courses and  
fan-barring), we can easilly find evidence of lutes having had a  
large number of courses and yet having survived with J-barring. See  
the amazing archiluth Archiluth / E.544 / Anonyme / VENISE / ITALIE /  
EUROPE / début 17e
http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/ 
NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0255171&EIDSIM=CMIM15072
There is an X-ray of the J-barring at P.66 Cahiers 7. This lute has  
survived apparently in almost original form in spite of having many  
courses and being j-barred.
However, it might well be the case that the body of this lute would  
have undergone less distorsion had it had fan-barring and the forces  
were more equally distributed on the table (weak interpretation of  
hypothesis 1?).
Notice that the three hypotheses can coexist; it is possible that  
several causes contributed to this new fashion.


David van Edwards suggests that J-barring was progressivley replaced  
by fan barring. P.59. The only lute that I have seen which has a  
mixed structure, is
Luth / E.980.2.321 / Tieffenbrucker, Magno II / Tieffenbrucker, Magno  
III / VENISE / ITALIE / EUROPE / 1580-1589
http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/ClientBookLineCIMU/recherche/ 
NoticeDetailleByID.asp?ID=0244085&EIDSIM=CMIM16581
The barring, however could be much later. You can see from the X-ray  
page 59 Cahiers 7, that the fan barring is here both on the treble  
and the bass side of a now straight J-bar, which has lost its curved  
end, which has been replaced by fanning.
Are there many such examples showing a progressive change. If the  
Rauwolf is historically fan-barred, then the theory of a gradual  
change seems challenged.


  It is unfortunate that the LSA database does not seem to give  
indications about barring, and I suppose that might be because it is  
very difficult to be sure whether the barring is original or not. The  
same is true of the catalogue of the Musée de la Musique here in  
Paris, although the X-ray photos and some photos of the inside of  
tables, do allow you to see the present state of the barring.


Sterling
  I understand that the fan barring on the 1755 Widhalm in  
Nuremberg (with the triple-extension after Jauck) WAS historic- 
original, and that is why Grant Tomlinson altered Benjamin's Widhalm  
from J-barring to fan-barring. It was to correct it from a historic  
point of view. If your 1764 Martin Brunner which is very similar to  
the Jauch extension, also has fan-barring, then one would suppose  
Widhalm might always have used such barring on his own lutes (at  
least with such extensions). I wonder whether his two Maler  
transformations (which look to be swan necked, but I might be wrong  
there) also have fan-barring or whether he kept the original barring,  
or something similar:

after 1615 [?]
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? 
PID=143

before 1550 [1740?]
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? 
PID=144


	Now, considering that barring goes together with a specific  
thickness distribution (j-barring thick at the edge, fan-barring  
thick towards the bridge) how do you go about changing one to the  
other without changing the table? I don't know whether GT changed  
both the barring and the table, or just the barring.
Well this is a question for any lute-maker I suppose, rather than any  
lute player.

Anthony

Le 15 janv. 09 à 02:25, sterling price a écrit :

I have a Widhalm that does have fan-barring and a soundboard  
carefully thicknessed as the original (assuming that the original  
has not been altered over the years). It also has a bass extension  
based on the 1764 Martin Brunner which is very similar to the Jauch  
extension. This pegbox, as you all know, helps with the transition  
of sound for the basses. This lute is much louder than my  
Burkholzer, but its also a bit bigger.  I am still experimenting  
with strings, and was thinking of trying gut soon.


--Sterling






-- 
---


Had this been the case, I presume that Grant Tomlinso

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 2 Baroque Lute recordings

[Anthony Hind]

Dear All
   I see that Ed's Conradi + Kellner CD can now be heard and  
purchased from Magnatune.

http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/martin-allemande/

Miguel's Baricades CD seems now to be widely available, see following:

US
www.amazon.com
www.arkivmusic.com
www.kochdistribution.com

UK
www.amazon.uk
www.europadisc.co.uk
www.play.com
www.crotchet.co.uk

France
www.fnac.com
www.abeillemusique.fr
www.amazon.fr
www.alapage.com

Italy
www.ibs.it

Spain
www.elcorteingles.es
www.elkar.com
www.todoclasico.cl

Germany
www.amazon.de
www.jpc.de

Switzerland
www.exlibris.ch
www.1advd.ch

Belgium/Holland

www.kruidvatentertainmentshop.nl

Poland
www.merlin.pl

Portugal
www.jmp.pt

Japan
www.towerrecords.co.jp


Anthony




Le 28 déc. 08 à 10:59, Anthony Hind a écrit :


Dear Lutenists
 In the last month I have received two excellent Baroque lute
CDs, that very nicely complement each other. Both contain music by
Kellner, but the pieces do not overlap, and while Ed Martin's CD also
contains music by Conradi, in Miguel Serdoura's CD there is music by
well known French lutenists, E. Gautier and J. Gallot, but also "Les
Baricades Mysterieueses" by Francois Couperin. This can be played on
13c lute with little or no alteration. There are also two interesting
pieces by the Saint-Luc, along side two better known pieces by Weiss.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41GugCgg1pL._SS400_.jpg
Extracts can be heard at
http://tinyurl.com/8zlqup

I do not want to compare these records, except to say that Ed Martin
is playing on a gut strung Frei style lute, which Dan Larson baroqued
from 7c to 11c, just as happened in the Baroque period. The recording
has been made by sound engineer, Jakob Larson (a member of the Larson
family?); and it succeeds in bringing out the subtle warm clarity of
Ed's gut-string playing. I rather suppose J L has a close knowledge
of lutes which has enabled him to make such an excellent recording:
at last a lute recording that sounds like a lute, not like an
amplified mandolin.

Miguel Serdoura is playing with nylgut and Aquila nylgut wirewounds;
however, his technique of damping the basses described on p.122 to
123 of his method, are such that I find no problem at all with basses
drowning the other voices (as so often seems to happen with
wirewounds). The sound engineer, Jiri Heger, works frequently with
small Baroque ensembles, such as those of William Christie,
http://www.musica-numeris.com/LEquipe/Lesing%C3%A9nieursduson/
Collaborateursr%C3%A9guliers/JiriHeger/tabid/175/language/en-US/
Default.aspx
and again, he seems to have had the necessary understanding of lute
sound, not to blur, in anyway, the pearl-like flowing clarity of
Miguel's playing.
I understand that little or no reverb was added, and only a slight
frequency tweaking was necessary to bring out the speed of the
initial attack, which was present on earphones, but slightly less so
on lofi speaker based systems.

I highly recommend both CDs, but do not want to try to compare the
style of these two lutenists. I would prefer to add some anecdotes to
show how both records pleasantly surprised the ears of some non-
specialists.

Ed Martin's CD:
Just as I received Ed Martin's CD, I had to leave Paris for a small
village 70 miles from Paris. While I was playing Ed's record to my
daughter, three of her local friends happened to drop in. All three
became very intent, wanting to know exactly what this beautiful music
could be: the composer, the instrument, etc. I found out later that
the young lady was an advanced viola student, while another was a
self taught rock and folk guitarist, but they did not have any deep
knowledge of lute music.
When it was mentioned that I had an 11c lute, similar to the one they
were hearing, they immediately wanted to see it, expressing amazement
at its lightness and beauty, but also admiration that this was the
type of instrument that could play such beautiful music.
I think the fact that Ed's playing "moved" this small group of non
specialists, tells us more about his record than would any words from
a lute amateur, such as myself.

Miguel's CD:
Just before I left Paris, I received the following message from a
great friend and colleague in linguistics, who is also a "melomane"
and audiophile, very partial to his Couperin, and to French Baroque
lute music.
  I have asked his permission to convey his message to you.


Paris, 22 decembre 2008

Dear Anthony,

Many thanks for the lovely record by Miguel Serdoura. As I told
you, I knew all the pieces,  included here, fairly well -with the
exception of the two lovely pieces by Jacques de Saint-Luc- but of
course Couperin's 'les baricades mysterieueses', the sixth piece of
his sixieme ordre, is probably one of the best known harpsichord
works of 18th century French music; however, I had never actually
heard it played on the lute and I was parti

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Ed
   I had a look at what guitar sites said about Adirondack, and  
it seems "that the chief benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top  
is its stiffness to weight ratio."

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-51636.html

Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, and so  
its reactions should become faster (similar to what happens with  
carbon).
This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with salts. The  
wood becomes much harder, and can be cut thinner.


That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use Bird's eye  
maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, he can cut it thinner  
than Sycamore.


Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to associate  
Bearclaw  Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same reason.


"the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to achieve  
better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top can be  
dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done by the  
"factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into a faster attack  
transient (an essential characteristic for clean, fast flat picking).  
If that is what you are looking for, then that would be better."


(However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw' figure  
seems to be an irregularity of
the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for yourself, can  
be very

variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be stiff and
acoustically good, although I do not think especially better than normal
wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative qualities, and not  
assume

it wil be superior acoustically."

Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used as though  
it were regular European Spruce, it would need far longer running-in.

It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration.

On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that you do need  
to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it is quite easy to  
make a top that can be run-in quickly, by making it too thin, but  
then it tends to die early too.


	However I am sure Daniel will make you a superb Adirondak top,  
although I rather agree with David, that this does not mean that many  
lutemakers will swap over to it. I don't think that the very  
successful experiments with salts loaded spruce tops has lead many  
lutemakers to try it.


The main thing is that you will soon be back playing 11c music, and  
perhaps we will have another excellent recording like your recent  
Conradi - Kelner record.


Best wishes
Anthony


Le 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a écrit :


Thanks, David.

I fully understand that a new lute (i.e. top, in my case) will not
sound as seasoned as an older one, but in this case, I had no option,
due to the damage.

I have heard that "right out of the box" that Adirondack sounds  
superb.


Are there any on this net who know of an Adirondack spruce top on a  
lute?


ed

At 05:49 PM 9/14/2009, David Rastall wrote:

Hi Ed,

Sorry to hear about your lute.  Ouch!!

From what I've heard, Adirondack is a good choice for a lute.
Apparently it compares favorably with European spruce at its best.
Most of the Adirondack spruce was used up during WW 2 in the making
of airplanes.  But today, the trees that were too young to be used
back then are big enough now to be cut down for commercial use.

My only reservation is that it might take longer to break in than the
other spruces.  That's what I've heard from various guitar mavens.
Apparently, the pre-war guitars made with Adirondack are just now
becoming fully broken in.

Because of its quality, availability and price, Adirondack is
considered the Holy Grail of guitar tops.  I think it would work well
on any lute that put it under enough tension.  It might not work so
well on a 6 or 8-course ren. lute.  It would probably work well as a
top for a theorbo.

I think you will most likely be the only lutenist ever to play on an
Adirondack top!

Best,

DavidR


On Sep 14, 2009, at 1:54 PM, Edward Martin wrote:


Dear ones,

I had an accident with my 11-course lute 2 months ago;  the top was
shattered.  My instrument is one made by Daniel Larson, and it is 67
cm, the Frei C34 design.  The lute was firstly made in 1995 as a
7-course Frei, and it was in 1997 converted into an 11-course
Frei.  This lute had a most beautiful sound, and I am very fortunate
to have recorded my CD "Allemande" on it, as a testament to its
gorgeous sound, so I can have this sound to make reference.

The instrument is not a total loss, and it is the soundboard where
the damage occurred.  As it was not repairable, Dan has  
constructed a
new top for it.  The original top was made of Italian spruce, but  
for

the replacement, it is made of Adirondack spruce.  It is very near
completion, and the finish merely needs to be polished (French
polish).

Sitka, Engelmann, and European spruce varieties are the most  
commonly

used for today's instruments, but I have never heard of 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce

[Anthony Hind]

Ed
I didn't know anything either, but thought I should try to find  
some basic knowledge to be able to discuss with lutemakers.
I feel sure that lute players of the past had far more knowledge than  
we have today about woods and lute structure and how these
affect the sound that they were wanting to achieve. Indeed, some  
luteplayers, such as Jacques Gautier appear to have been lutemakers,
or at least lute designers themselves (he is described as maker of  
lutes for masques in the "programme" for one masque of the time).


As I understand it Sitka spruce is not equivalent to Bear Claw, but  
Bear Claw is quite prevalent in that particular species. It seems  
rather that Bear claw Sika is close in hardness to Adirondak. I have  
no idea if Adirondak can also have Bear claw, but from what others  
say, it seems most of it is quite young, in which case this is rather  
unlikely.


Here is an example of Bear Claw, for those who have probably seen it,  
but know it by another name:

Horizontal Bear claw
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ 
soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw1.jpg

Vertical Bear Claw
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ 
soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw2.jpg

Bear Claw on guitar table
http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m215/ag-no3phile/lute%20playing/ 
soundboard/?action=view¤t=BearClaw6.png


I know a Baroque Gamba that was made out of the wood of an ancient  
destroyed Chinese building (while making new roads).
The table shows superb Bear claw marks, and one would presume that  
this would have been from a far eastern variety, so probably not Sitka.


I am looking forward to hearing about how it sounds, and actually  
just hearing it, on your next CD!


Anthony


Le 15 sept. 09 à 15:19, Edward Martin a écrit :


Anthony,

Thank you for your reply.  The subject of top woods is very  
interesting, and it is something of which I have little knowledge.I  
have also read the forums on this subject.  I had not known that  
Sitka spruce is also known as bear claw.


Whether the lute will sound rich immediately is not known, but I  
ought to discover it soon!


ed



At 04:44 AM 9/15/2009, Anthony Hind wrote:

Dear Ed
   I had a look at what guitar sites said about Adirondack, and
it seems "that the chief benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top
is its stiffness to weight ratio."
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ 
t-51636.html


Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner, and so
its reactions should become faster (similar to what happens with
carbon).
This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with salts. The
wood becomes much harder, and can be cut thinner.

That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use Bird's eye
maple for backs; because it is relatively hard, he can cut it thinner
than Sycamore.

Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to associate
Bearclaw  Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same reason.

"the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to achieve
better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top can be
dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done by the
"factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into a faster attack
transient (an essential characteristic for clean, fast flat picking).
If that is what you are looking for, then that would be better."

(However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw' figure
seems to be an irregularity of
the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for yourself, can
be very
variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be stiff and
acoustically good, although I do not think especially better than  
normal

wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative qualities, and not
assume
it wil be superior acoustically."

Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used as though
it were regular European Spruce, it would need far longer running-in.
It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration.

On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that you do need
to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it is quite easy to
make a top that can be run-in quickly, by making it too thin, but
then it tends to die early too.

However I am sure Daniel will make you a superb Adirondak  
top,

although I rather agree with David, that this does not mean that many
lutemakers will swap over to it. I don't think that the very
successful experiments with salts loaded spruce tops has lead many
lutemakers to try it.

The main thing is that you will soon be back playing 11c music, and
perhaps we will have another excellent recording like your recent
Conradi - Kelner record.

Best wishes
Anthony


Le 15 sept. 09 à 05:45, Edward Martin a écrit :


Thanks, David.

I fully understand that a new lute (i.e. top, in my case) will not
sound as seasoned as an o

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Martyn
Le 15 sept. 09 à 16:51, Martyn Hodgson a écrit :


Dear Anthony,

I don't know if you are aware of the pioneering work on treatment  
of violin wood which Joseph Michelman undertook in the US during  
the 1940s: his work was published (VIOLIN VARNISH) in 1946.


No, I heard of the more recent work relating to salt loading of  
Strads by the Hungarian, Nagyvary

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686
http://tinyurl.com/62juy9
Presumably, he was basing his research on the ideas of Michelman.

Mimmo also carried out similar research, noting that metallic salts  
replace the sap compounds in the wood and make it as hard as stone.
The earliest reference, I believe to treating instruments with salts,  
is in a work by Bernard Palissy.


Thank you for telling me about this work by Michelman, I would indeed  
be interested in reading it.
I seem to remember when I was a child that cricket bats were soaked  
in linseed oil, and that if this was not done
they would crack almost immediately. I just assumed that the oils  
somehow made the wood more supple (less brittle), but I didn't think  
harder,
but presumably, if the process is similar to that discussed by  
Michelman, it should result both in a more flexibilty and a harder wood.


Could this process be attempted on a completed lute (similarly to the  
cricket bat)? I am not suggesting one should try, just wondering.


In the case of the salts, I think the wood becomes more dense, and so  
this allows it to be cut thinner, while it sounds as though linseed
might simply make the wood lighter (whatever its thickness), but  
perhaps I have not completely grasped the concept.


I will certainly have to read Michelman before liberally applying the  
linseed!

Anthony







I believe Michelman was a chemist and certainly his book  
demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin varnish and belly  
treatments than many earlier works. What may be on interest in the  
context of salt loading of sounboards
is that he reported on what he believed the early makers used to  
permanently reduce the unecessary weight of the sounboard and  
improve stifness. In his case he conducted trials and concluded  
that linseed oil  was used which replaced the heavier water content  
much, perhaps, in the same way as salt loading may do. Michelman  
also described work with 'metal soaps' which are produced when  
water soluble salts react with fatty acids in the wood - I presume  
this is also linked to salt loading outcomes.

In short, well worth a read if you're interested in the subject

Martyn


--- On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind  wrote:


From: Anthony Hind 
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 AM
Dear Ed
   I had a look at what guitar
sites said about Adirondack, and it seems "that the chief
benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its stiffness
to weight ratio."
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/ 
t-51636.html


Presumably this makes it possible to cut the table thinner,
and so its reactions should become faster (similar to what
happens with carbon).
This is also what Mimmo tells me about spruce treated with
salts. The wood becomes much harder, and can be cut
thinner.

That is also why, Martin Haycock told me he liked to use
Bird's eye maple for backs; because it is relatively hard,
he can cut it thinner than Sycamore.

Incidentally, on the guitar page, there is a tendancy to
associate Bearclaw  Sitka, with Adirondak, for the same
reason.

"the qualities of Bearclaw Sitka allow it to be worked to
achieve better tone. Due to it's superior stiffness the top
can be dimensioned a little thinner (perhaps this isn't done
by the "factory" guitar makers?). This should translate into
a faster attack transient (an essential characteristic for
clean, fast flat picking). If that is what you are looking
for, then that would be better."

(However, I was also told, "The rather unusual 'bear claw'
figure seems to be an irregularity of
the annual rings themselves, and as you have seen for
yourself, can be very
variable. Wood showing this figure seems generally to be
stiff and
acoustically good, although I do not think especially
better than normal
wood, and I would rather use it for its decorative
qualities, and not assume
it wil be superior acoustically."

Now, presumably, if Adirondak (or Bear claw Sika) were used
as though it were regular European Spruce, it would need far
longer running-in.
It would presumably show higher resistance to vibration.

On the other hand, I read somewhere on a violin page that
you do need to accept a fairly long playing-in time; that it
is quite easy to make a top that can be run-in quickly, by
making it too thin, but then it tends to die early too.

However I am sure Daniel will make you a
superb Adirondak top, although I rather ag

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce

[Anthony Hind]

 reason he thought the tone  
> improved by linseed oil - not just, or mainly, the loss in weight  
> but more the amalgamation of the wood (again tho' I think rather  
> like the salt 'hardening' of the wood). Linseed oil dries of course  
> into a hard film not at all like machinery grease etc. Indeed Stand  
> Oil (ie partly oxidised Linseed oil) will dry to a hard film which  
> can be buffed in a matter of days: it's been suggested that this  
> was used on the bellies of lutes and would also act as a sealer and  
> I recall this was discussed some time ago and presumably can be  
> found in the archives.
>
> Martyn
>
>
> PS I've just googled the book and amazingly see that the work has  
> been scanned by Google books so you can read it online..
>
> --- On Wed, 16/9/09, Anthony Hind  wrote:
>
>> From: Anthony Hind 
>> Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
>> To: "Martyn Hodgson" , baroque- 
>> l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 8:54 AM
>> Dear Martyn
>> Le 15 sept. 09 à 16:51, Martyn Hodgson a écrit :
>>
>>> Dear Anthony,
>>>
>>> I don't know if you are aware of the pioneering work
>> on treatment of violin wood which Joseph Michelman undertook
>> in the US during the 1940s: his work was published (VIOLIN
>> VARNISH) in 1946.
>>
>> No, I heard of the more recent work relating to salt
>> loading of Strads by the Hungarian, Nagyvary
>> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686
>> http://tinyurl.com/62juy9
>> Presumably, he was basing his research on the ideas of
>> Michelman.
>>
>> Mimmo also carried out similar research, noting that
>> metallic salts replace the sap compounds in the wood and
>> make it as hard as stone.
>> The earliest reference, I believe to treating instruments
>> with salts, is in a work by Bernard Palissy.
>>
>> Thank you for telling me about this work by Michelman, I
>> would indeed be interested in reading it.
>> I seem to remember when I was a child that cricket bats
>> were soaked in linseed oil, and that if this was not done
>> they would crack almost immediately. I just assumed that
>> the oils somehow made the wood more supple (less brittle),
>> but I didn't think harder,
>> but presumably, if the process is similar to that discussed
>> by Michelman, it should result both in a more flexibilty and
>> a harder wood.
>>
>> Could this process be attempted on a completed lute
>> (similarly to the cricket bat)? I am not suggesting one
>> should try, just wondering.
>>
>> In the case of the salts, I think the wood becomes more
>> dense, and so this allows it to be cut thinner, while it
>> sounds as though linseed
>> might simply make the wood lighter (whatever its
>> thickness), but perhaps I have not completely grasped the
>> concept.
>>
>> I will certainly have to read Michelman before liberally
>> applying the linseed!
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I believe Michelman was a chemist and certainly his
>> book demonstrates a rigourous appoach to violin varnish and
>> belly treatments than many earlier works. What may be on
>> interest in the context of salt loading of sounboards
>>> is that he reported on what he believed the early
>> makers used to permanently reduce the unecessary weight of
>> the sounboard and improve stifness. In his case he conducted
>> trials and concluded that linseed oil  was used which
>> replaced the heavier water content much, perhaps, in the
>> same way as salt loading may do. Michelman also described
>> work with 'metal soaps' which are produced when water
>> soluble salts react with fatty acids in the wood - I presume
>> this is also linked to salt loading outcomes.
>>> In short, well worth a read if you're interested in
>> the subject
>>>
>>> Martyn
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 15/9/09, Anthony Hind 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Anthony Hind 
>>>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack spruce
>>>> To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>>> Date: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009, 10:45 AM
>>>> Dear Ed
>>>> I had a look at what
>> guitar
>>>> sites said about Adirondack, and it seems "that
>> the chief
>>>> benefit of using Adirondak Spruce as a top is its
>> stiffness
>>>> to weight ratio."
>>>> http://www.acousticguitarforum.c

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Adirondack Spruce

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Ed
I am so pleased to hear your lute is back, and so we will  
soon be hearing more music, but even sweeter than on your excellent  
Conradi CD, if that is possible.


	I am interested to hear you mention the singing quality of your  
lute. This is also what struck me about my 11c lute. I had heard a  
number of very good 11c lutes but none quite so singing. I suppose  
this comes from the contradictory qualities of clarity and sustain,  
which few lutes seem to possess.


Perhaps the hardness of the top could be the quality that our lutes  
might have in common. Stephen Gottlieb told me he had used a piece of  
perticularly old and hard timber, which happened to have a mild Bear  
claw pattern.
Well you can certainly put it down to the new top, as that is all Dan  
Larson changed. I can only guess that it might be the top on my lute.


Was this wood, also from a stock of old floating logs, as I  
mentionned to you, in a previous message. If so, it could be both the  
age, and the fact that it is Adirondack?


Congratulations on the rebirth of your 11c lute. If I understand  
correctly, this is its second rebirth, as I believe previously it was  
a 7c lute.

A lute with nine lives?
Best wishes
Anthony



Le 22 sept. 09 à 00:14, Edward Martin a écrit :


Dear ones,

I wrote a week or so ago, about my mishap with my 11-course
lute.  Needing a top replacement, the work is finally complete, and I
have it back.

The results are absolutely beautiful!  The top wood is gorgeous, and
the sound is very complex.  As many have described Adirondack for
tops, the treble is very clear, and very strong.  I have never heard
a new lute with such a singing treble, which makes for a very
wonderful sound.

Of course, this old lute is now in effect a new 11-course lute, after
the previous 14 year old top.  It does sound new, and it will take
time to season the sound;  in addition to guitars, Adirondack spruce
also works very well for lutes.  I highly recommend it, if one can
ever get access to this difficult-to-obtain wood.

ed





Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  e...@gamutstrings.com
voice:  (218) 728-1202
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
http://www.myspace.com/edslute




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[BAROQUE-LUTE] String tensions etc. in d-m-lutes, esp. 11c.?

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Arto
  Congratulations on your new 11-course.
   I am also new to the Baroque lute, but have had my 11c 70 cm Warwick
   for just over a year, and have had time to gradually change some of my
   stringing.
   Unfortunately I just had a double computer failure, and I had lost much
   of my stored data, but your message has given me a chance to do a
   little detective work (old bills, etc), and I think I am now sure of
   the original values, and the changes I have made.
   In brief : On my 11c Warwick, I now use all gut by Aquila, with Meanes
   in Aquila Venices, and Basses in Aquila loaded Venices, but the Octaves
   down from g-7 are also in Aquila Venices.
   The Octaves are now slightly higher in tension (3.1Kg) than the Basses
   themselves (2.9Kg).
   I don't think this is particularly low tension, but nor is it
   particularly high.
   However, Venice string types are probably the most flexible, other than
   Charles Besnainou's "spring" strings, and in this respect behave
   similarly to low tension strings.
   I have not yet reached a stable RH position. It seems to depend on the
   angle of my fingers to the strings. The flatter they are on to the
   strings, the further back towards the bridge I seem to go.
   11c lutes do seem to have wider spacing than 13c lutes, both between
   courses and within the course, I might now have chosen a slightly
   closer spacing between courses as this does add to the stretch of a
   longish 70cm lute.
   Now, In more detail :
   Basses:
   From the beginning, I used the gut strings Stephen Gottlieb put on
   my lute, including the loaded Venice Basses for which I had
   specifically asked him. St G had put them on C-11 up to F-8, but then a
   Gimped Bass on G-7, and a Venice Bass on A-6. This was because he
   feared that loaded basses would stop down false; but the result was not
   as homogenous as I would have liked; so I changed these last also for
   loaded strings with no serious falseness problem and much improved
   homogeneity (not because Gimped or Venice strings are bad per se).
   Meanes:
   St G had put HT Trebles for  Meane 4 and 5, but I changed these to
   Venice Meanes, again to improve the homogeneity with the Venice loaded
   Basses, and I predicted (I think correctly) that similar string types
   would work better together ("sympathy").
   Octaves & Diapason tension switch:
St G had chosen 2.8Kg HT octaves with 3kg Venice loaded Basses and had
   strung my lute at 415Hz.
   I really wanted a diapason nearer 392Hz, so as to have thicker treble
   strings  (at least 0,44, rather than 0.42); but not wanting to throw
   away the loaded strings, I lowered the diapason to 407Hz (the lowest I
   could acheive with the rather slack loaded strings)
   My loaded strings then became a rather low 2.9Kg, or 2.85Kg (at 407Hz).
   But to copensate for this drop in tension at the level of the course, I
   then replaced all the octaves with values worth about 3Kg to 3.1Kg (at
   407Hz). So that from Bass at 3Kg and Octave at 2.8Kg, I now had Bass at
   2.9Kg and Octave at 3.1Kg.
   This works really well. The octaves then became the "leading" string of
   the course; but as at the same time I swapped all the Octave HTs (from
   g-7 to c-11) for Venice Meane strings (see Mace), the leading tone
   became that of the Meanes creating a beautiful homogeneity from the
   Basses through to the Meanes.
   Also, all tendency for the Octaves to buzz with the loaded basses
   disappeared.
   I Approximate values and strings chosen by my Lute Maker:
   70 cm a'=414 Hz,
   f1)  0.42 treble gut 4Kg
   d-2 0.50 treble gut4Kg
   a-30.58 treble gut 2.9Kg
   F-40.72 HT gut  2.9Kg
   D-5   0.86V HT gut2.9kg
   a-60.56 HT treble gut   2.8Kg
   A-61.2 Venice Aquila  3Kg
   g-7  0.64 HT treble gut 2.8Kg  Octave
   G-71.32  Gimped  gut 3Kg  Gamut
   f-8  0.64 HT treble gut 2.8Kg
   F-8 1.46 Venice Aquila  3Kg
   e-90.76 HT treble gut 2.8Kg
   E-91.6C loaded Aquila  3Kg
   d-10   0.86 HT treble gut   2.8Kg
   D-10  1.8C loaded gut 3Kg
   c-11 0,96 HT treble gut   2.8Kg
   C-11  1.96C loaded gut   3Kg
   II The final values and string types adopted:
   70 cm a'=407 Hz, all Aquilla
   f1 0.44 treble gut (4.2Kg)
   d-2  0.52 treble gut (4Kg)
   A-3 0.60 treble gut x2   3Kg
   F-4  0.76V gut (twice)3Kg
   D-5 0.91V gut (twice)3kg
   a-6  0.58 treble gut3 Kg
   A-6  1.24C  Venice  loaded  2.9Kg
   g-7  73V Venice  Meane gut 3kg
   G-7  140c Venice  loaded 2.9Kg
   f-80,82 Venice  Meane gut3kg
   F-8   1.46C Venice  loaded2.9Kg
   e-90.88 Venice  Meane

[no subject]

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Arto
   I found that varnished treble gut (which I think Sofracob may
   be) was more scratchy than plain or oiled gut; but also some makes are
   slightly rounder sounding (Baldock Cathedral, in particular) or
   brighter than others. The bright ones tend to emphasize scratchiness.
   However, the thickness of the treble strings also seems to play a role:
   the thinner they are the more scratchy they are (you can't "dig into"
   them so well). This is why I lowered the diapason from 415 to 407, so
   that I could use a 0,44 top string on my 70 cm Baroque lute. I would
   have preferred to go even lower, but I would have had to change all my
   strings.
   The fact of having two single courses on 1 and 2, must play a role,
   here (compared say to a 10c lute),  although I am not sure what the
   effect might be.
   I did also notice that my change of technique for Baroque lute playing
   (thumb-in to thumb-out), initially, seemed to make my top strings sound
   more scratchy, until I realized I was not "digging-in" to the trebles
   strings sufficiently. The sound improved, as soon as I realized that.
   I think I now play flatter on the treble strings (see Mouton)  and less
   sidewards on than I played Renaissance lute. I don't know whether that
   makes sense to you.
   Since then, over the months the sound has become less scratchy by
   degrees, with no particular conscious effort on my part.
   Having said that, have you recorded your renaissance lute with the Zoom
   recorder?
   It could be that it would be just as scratchy.
   Not because you play in a scratchy way, but the problem with the Zoom
   is that you need to record very close, if you don't want preamp noise;
   but then you will amplify all finger noises. I think Rob and Martin
   mentioned this when they began to use their Zoom recorders.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
   Dear baroque lutenists,
   I made a triple test (and perhaps unluckily also published it?): I
   played
   an instrument very new to me, an 11 courser by Lars Joenssson 1993. The
   lute is strung by gut. And I used a new Zoom Q3 to record my test. So
   there
   were three to me new and quite vague parameters: the instrument, the
   strings, the recorder equipment... :-/
   A couple of questions:
   1) The gut strings seem to be ("hear to be") quite noisy. The piece I
   play
   doesn't use the 1st string at all, but that is even more noisy... Is
   that
   the nature of gut strings? The strings of the lute are probably
   "Sobrakof".
   The seller could not tell me the string properties, diameter or
   tension.
   They feel quite light. Much lighter than the synthetics I am used to.
   And I
   am used - as a continuo player - to play by quite "heavy a hand"...
   2) I recorded the test in the "PCM 44.1kHz 16bit" of the Q3, then
   edited
   the beginning and the end off by Quicktime, and finally "exported" the
   piece from Quicktime by the same 44.1kHz 16bit. The sound is really
   quite
   rough. Perhaps it really is so also in real life? I really don't
   know...
   The test is in
[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k6DJ3HL1Cc
   and also in Vimeo
[2]http://www.vimeo.com/8221336
   I do not know what their systems are to publish the files I sent.
   All the best,
   Arto
   PS 1:  It really is dark in wintertime here in Finland, and the lights
   in
   my work room are not too bright either ;-)
   PS 2: I just wait, how "62Konrad" will comment... ;-)
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k6DJ3HL1Cc
   2. http://www.vimeo.com/8221336
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A triple test? [scratchy gut trebles?]

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Arto
   I found that varnished treble gut (which I think Sofracob may
   be) was more scratchy than plain or oiled gut; but also some makes are
   slightly rounder sounding (Baldock Cathedral, in particular) or
   brighter than others. The bright ones tend to emphasize scratchiness.
   However, the thickness of the treble strings also seems to play a role:
   the thinner they are the more scratchy they are (you can't "dig into"
   them so well). This is why I lowered the diapason from 415 to 407, so
   that I could use a 0,44 top string on my 70 cm Baroque lute. I would
   have preferred to go even lower, but I would have had to change all my
   strings.
   The fact of having two single courses on 1 and 2, must play a role,
   here (compared say to a 10c lute),  although I am not sure what the
   effect might be.
   I did also notice that my change of technique for Baroque lute playing
   (thumb-in to thumb-out), initially, seemed to make my top strings sound
   more scratchy, until I realized I was not "digging-in" to the trebles
   strings sufficiently. The sound improved, as soon as I realized that.
   I think I now play flatter on the treble strings (see Mouton)  and less
   sidewards on than I played Renaissance lute. I don't know whether that
   makes sense to you.
   Since then, over the months the sound has become less scratchy by
   degrees, with no particular conscious effort on my part.
   Having said that, have you recorded your renaissance lute with the Zoom
   recorder?
   It could be that it would be just as scratchy.
   Not because you play in a scratchy way, but the problem with the Zoom
   is that you need to record very close, if you don't want preamp noise;
   but then you will amplify all finger noises. I think Rob and Martin
   mentioned this when they began to use their Zoom recorders.
   Best wishes
   Anthony
   Dear baroque lutenists,
   I made a triple test (and perhaps unluckily also published it?): I
   played
   an instrument very new to me, an 11 courser by Lars Joenssson 1993. The
   lute is strung by gut. And I used a new Zoom Q3 to record my test. So
   there
   were three to me new and quite vague parameters: the instrument, the
   strings, the recorder equipment... :-/
   A couple of questions:
   1) The gut strings seem to be ("hear to be") quite noisy. The piece I
   play
   doesn't use the 1st string at all, but that is even more noisy... Is
   that
   the nature of gut strings? The strings of the lute are probably
   "Sobrakof".
   The seller could not tell me the string properties, diameter or
   tension.
   They feel quite light. Much lighter than the synthetics I am used to.
   And I
   am used - as a continuo player - to play by quite "heavy a hand"...
   2) I recorded the test in the "PCM 44.1kHz 16bit" of the Q3, then
   edited
   the beginning and the end off by Quicktime, and finally "exported" the
   piece from Quicktime by the same 44.1kHz 16bit. The sound is really
   quite
   rough. Perhaps it really is so also in real life? I really don't
   know...
   The test is in
[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k6DJ3HL1Cc
   and also in Vimeo
[2]http://www.vimeo.com/8221336
   I do not know what their systems are to publish the files I sent.
   All the best,
   Arto
   PS 1:  It really is dark in wintertime here in Finland, and the lights
   in
   my work room are not too bright either ;-)
   PS 2: I just wait, how "62Konrad" will comment... ;-)
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k6DJ3HL1Cc
   2. http://www.vimeo.com/8221336
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re :b-lute debut

[anthony . hind]

   Very nice David! Two of the pieces, the Allemande in d-moll, and the=
   Courante in d-moll
   are pieces I am actually working on at the moment; so I am very happy
   to h= ave your interpretation.
   Of course I do have the recording by Satoh, whi= ch I have listened to
   at various speeds to try to analyse his phrasing and = ornamentation;
   but the problem I have been finding most difficult is fittin= g the
   ornamentation in with the basic rhythmic structure.
   Jacqueline hea= ring the Allemande coming from my office, thought I was
   playing in there. S= he actually recognized the piece, so there is hope
   for me yet.
   Best wish= es
   Anthony

    Message d'origine 
   >De : "David van Ooijen" 
   >=C3=80 : "lutelist Net" ;
   > "Baroque Lute List (E-mail)" Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] b-lute debut
   >Date : 10/01/2010 11:35:06 CET
   >
   >Like Arto, I have fallen for an 11-course.
   > Mine is made by Richard Berg, after Burckholtzer/Edlinger.
   > It's 68cm and strung, naturally, all-gut with Gamut Pistoys on the
   ba= sses.
   > Last Wednesday I had my first concert, all music by Weichenberger,
   an= d
   > here are the clips I made yesterday:
   >
   > Chaconne in a-moll
   > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DAiQSWBxUSAg
   >
   > Allemande in d-moll
   > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DOsGDtKGXHsg
   >
   > Courante in d-moll
   > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_oaC8Rc6Rm4
   >
   > Sarabande in d-moll
   > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D2XQfBIt-AkI
   >
   > David - still a lot to learn, but not bad for a beginner. ;-)
   >
   > --
   > ***
   > David van Ooijen
   > davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   > www.davidvanooijen.nl
   > ***
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re :Re: Re :b-lute debut

[anthony . hind]

   Yes, I have been using a metronome, and intuitively thinking of the
   ornaments as divisions, but I did not think of playing the ornaments by
   themselves. I will definitely give that a go.
   Yes, it is often quite difficult to play at half measure, a little like
   slow motion walking, but it does facilitate more detailed analysis.
   Listening to Satoh's playing at about half speed also allowed me to tr=
   y to capture the idea of "in=C3=A9gal" rhtyhm with a sort of "scat"
   singing= syllable system. I found that incredibly helpful, but of
   course it is not = a universal-type system, probably only works for me,
   and may be different o= n every piece.
   Thanks for the advice
   Anthony


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re :Re: Re :b-lute debut

[Anthony Hind]

   I will send that again, via my Yahoo mail. I don't understand why the
   messages from one of my mail addresses gets garbled  on the LSA list
   with added signs, corresponding to the line spaces (and also has a sort
   of ginger-bread man emblem appears); while the other has all its
   paragragh spaces removed. I wonder what setting one should use to avoid
   this happening?
   Dear David
   Yes, I have been using a metronome, and intuitively thinking of
   the
 ornaments as divisions, but I did not think of playing the ornaments
   by
 themselves. I will definitely give that a go.
 Yes, it is often quite difficult to play at half measure, a little
   like
 slow motion walking, but it does facilitate more detailed analysis.
 Listening to Satoh's playing at about half speed also allowed me to
   tr=
 y to capture the idea of "inegal" rhtyhm with a sort of "scat"
 singing= syllable system. I found that incredibly helpful, but of
 course it is not a universal-type system, probably only works for me,
 and may be different on every piece.
 Thanks for the advice
 Anthony
   On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 11:54 AM,   wrote:
   problem I have been finding most difficult is fitting the ornamentation
   in
   with the basic rhythmic structure.
   Write the ornaments out in rhythm. Start simple: two eight notes to
   divide one quarter. Or a quarter and and eight note to dive a dotted
   quarter. Then four sixteenth for one quarter. Play in time. Then try
   six 'sixtuplets' in one quarter. Play in time. Make that your starting
   point for a more free interpretation in which you can speed up or slow
   down the ornament. A metronome is a useful tool: set it on quarter or
   even eight notes to practice the ornament in strict rhythm. Take your
   time, practice slowly, speed will come later. Set the metronome at
   half measure (or whatever is appropriate in the piece) to practice the
   freedom in the ornament after which you should land on the beat again.
   Practice slowly and precisely, play fast and freely.
   David

   --


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: b-lute debut

[Anthony Hind]

Benjamin Narvey tells me that the Conradi pieces have a maximum
   effect for a minimum of effort (quite a French notion of elegant
   economy really). They are indeed beautiful. Yet, my preferred French
   pieces remain the earlier Gallot (etc) which tend to shun the top
   register and play about with the Meanes; they actually do sound superb
   on my lute, but I don't feel ready for them yet.
   Weichenberger is perhaps rhythmically more intricate, but melodically
   slightly easier to approach, and seems almost to caricature some French
   "gestures"; as such, I feel (perhaps wrongly), Conradi and
   Weichenberger could be an excellent introduction both to earlier French
   music and to Weiss.
   Anthony

    Message d'origine 
   >De : "Daniel Shoskes" 
   >A : "BAROQUE-LUTE" 
   >Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: b-lute debut
   >Date : 10/01/2010 14:26:06 CET
   >
   > Ichi Ban! Apart from the chaconne, I've been intimidated by the
   > interpretive challenges of Weichenberger, especially as Anthony
   > suggested, with holding the structure together rhythmically on the
   > repeats. There really is a fascinating and under recorded literature
   > that sits between the early French composers and Weiss/Bach 13 course
   > music. I mentioned St. Luc previously and now I'm trying my hand at
   > Conradi. Without recordings by Ed Martin and Barto's CBC radio
   bootleg
   > I don't think I would have been able to make sense of the Prelude or
   > Allemande!
   >
   > Danny
   >
   > Prelude:
   > [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-cWBbgZQ2w
   > Allemande:
   > [2][2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOHFWPyZf_8
   > Menuet:
   > [3][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPkDIxuM_bk
   >
   > On Jan 10, 2010, at 5:35 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:
   >
   > Like Arto, I have fallen for an 11-course.
   > Mine is made by Richard Berg, after Burckholtzer/Edlinger.
   > It's 68cm and strung, naturally, all-gut with Gamut Pistoys on the
   > basses.
   > Last Wednesday I had my first concert, all music by Weichenberger,
   and
   > here are the clips I made yesterday:
   > Chaconne in a-moll
   > [4][4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiQSWBxUSAg
   > Allemande in d-moll
   > [5][5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGDtKGXHsg
   > Courante in d-moll
   > [6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oaC8Rc6Rm4
   > Sarabande in d-moll
   > [7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQfBIt-AkI
   > David - still a lot to learn, but not bad for a beginner. ;-)
   > --
   > ***
   > David van Ooijen
   > davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   > [8]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   > ***
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   > --
   >
   > References
   >
   > Visible links
   > 1. [10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-cWBbgZQ2w
   > 2. [11]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOHFWPyZf_8
   > 3. [12]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPkDIxuM_bk
   > 4. [13]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiQSWBxUSAg
   > 5. [14]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGDtKGXHsg
   >
   > Hidden links:
   > 6. [15]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPkDIxuM_bk
   >
   >

   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-cWBbgZQ2w
   2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOHFWPyZf_8
   3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPkDIxuM_bk
   4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiQSWBxUSAg
   5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGDtKGXHsg
   6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oaC8Rc6Rm4
   7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQfBIt-AkI
   8. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
  10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-cWBbgZQ2w
  11. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOHFWPyZf_8
  12. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPkDIxuM_bk
  13. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiQSWBxUSAg
  14. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsGDtKGXHsg
  15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPkDIxuM_bk

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Richness of our repertoire!

[anthony . hind]

   Dear Arto
The recent France musique prog= ramme by Miguel Yisrael,
   introduced me to the works of the Austrian Lauffen= steiner (same
   period as Weiss). I don't believe I had heard any of his piec= es
   before. Miguel's performance of one of his sonatas, is at the end of
   thi= s programme:
   http://media.radiofrance-podcast.net/podcast09/11521-11.10.=
   2010-ITEMA_20246847-0.mp3
   Personally, I am more sensitive to the earlier= French Baroque, and
   this is almost Mozartian, but it shows how wide the Ba= roque lute
   programme is, as you are saying.
   regards
   Anthony


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Richness of our repertoire!

[Anthony Hind]

   Oups, sorry, I have to send this from my other mail, or it becomes
   garbled, not sure why.
   Dear Arto
The recent France musique programme by Miguel Yisrael, introduced
   me to the works of the Austrian Lauffensteiner (same period as Weiss).
   I don't believe I had heard any of his pieces before. Miguel's
   performance of one of his sonatas, is at the end of this programme:
   [1]http://tinyurl.com/2u7feqb
   Personally, I am more sensitive to the earlier French Baroque, and this
   is almost Mozartian, but it shows how wide the Baroque lute programme
   is, as you are saying.
   regards
   Anthony

   --

References

   1. http://tinyurl.com/2u7feqb


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: New Weiss recording

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Ed
Thank you for this information. I feel there is a greater clarity
   and can I say somehow less "indulgence", in the Weiss I have heard
   played on 11c lutes (I am thinking of the Lindberg and the Beier CDs,
   but of course their lutes were also gut strung).
   Perhaps I am an 11c person: when hearing an 11c and a 13c lute in the
   same model by the same maker, I tend to prefer the balance elegance and
   clarity of the 11c (perhaps, as some prefer the 6c to the 7c, and
   others the 7c to the 8c).
   That is not of course to say that there are not superb 13c lutes and
   performances of Weiss on these, including, of course, those of your
   excellent Baroque lute Duets.
   My best wishes
   Anthony
    Message d'origine 
   >De : "Edward Martin" 
   >A : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] New Weiss recording
   >Date : 19/11/2010 05:36:04 CET
   >
   >Dear ones,
   >
   > There is a new recording released of a program of Weiss, and this is
   > recorded by Nigel North. Please see:
   >
   [1]http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/reviews/al
   bum-weiss
   > -the-heart-trembles-with-pleasure-bgs-2127755.html?ref=nf
   >
   > The program is early works of Weiss, performed on an 11-course
   > lute. He performed this program in Cleveland this summer, and it was
   > gorgeous.
   >
   > ed
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > Edward Martin
   > 2817 East 2nd Street
   > Duluth, Minnesota 55812
   > e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com
   > voice: (218) 728-1202
   > [2]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
   > [3]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
   >
   >
   >
   >
   > To get on or off this list see list information at
   > [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >

   --

References

   1. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/reviews/album-weiss
   2. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
   3. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Arto
 The question might be what the characteristics are that you are 
looking 

for 

in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire, and what 
type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses), low 
tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All this might 
determine the best makers for you to consider. 


Model and bass string type:
The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly by the 
type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is sometimes 
felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice (Vienna 
Frei)
if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped basses 
(at around 415) to avoid over thick basses. 

If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer string 
length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed Tieffenbrucher, 
Burkholzer  etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this mainly 
on 

Burwell,
possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhétorique de Dieux 
manuscript.

Sustain and clarity:
Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the ideal 
lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having the two 
almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: <> Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8.

Anthony Bailes suggests that "sustain" was so essential to the French musicians 
that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna lutes.
"The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments have more 
sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is 
particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on 
longer than it actually does." (Lute News 85, Avril 2008)

In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his 
interpretation 


of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length, adopting a 
76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute 
affords.

However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we approach 
that 


French ideal of sustain and clarity?

I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei  (69 to 71), such 
as 


that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the use of 
loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and sustain, 
while maintaining a good balance between registers. 

A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much bass for 
the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically accurate) for 
later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh, etc) giving 
good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain.

I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb with 
loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if it might 
not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin 
Haycock's 


for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be determined by the 
qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute. 

It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but presumably a 
lute by Paul Thomson might near this.

The best maker for your chosen model:
 You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string length and 
string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly renowned for 
certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although they may 
be quite open to making other lute models.
Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen by those 
proning low tension pure gut basses and who prefer the multi-ribbed Burkholzer 
or Greiss lutes (Satoh etc).

String tweaking:
Indeed, as  I am sure you are aware, choice of stringing is almost as important 
as choice of lute, and I have spent the last two years trying to maximise my 
lute's singing quality by small shifts in the stringing.

Please do not consider that there is only one way to go, it is more a question 
of finding the right pitch, string type, and tension at which a particular lute 
really begins to sing.

My 69.5cm lute seems to work better at 392 than previously used 415 or 407; and 
 


Aquila low impedance Venice strings on basses (loaded), most octaves, and 
Meanes 


does maximise sustain (through sympathetic resonances and low impedance to the 
soundboard) but while maintaining good clarity. 


Nevertheless, I recently raised the tension on bass courses (while keeping a 
higher relative tension on the octaves) which further increased sustain, thus 
further improving this singing quality.

I would not claim this is the only way to string a lute, just that a good lute 
can become an excellent one with the choice of the right stringing, both for 
the 


lute and for the player.

This Sunday, I attended Benjamin Narvey's Baroque lute concert here in 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Anthony Hind]

urements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments)
   indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these
   particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger
   instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which
   Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a
   string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around
   1670,  he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in
   his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of
   the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
   performance of 17th century French lute music'.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04

   Dear Arto
The question might be what the characteristics are that you
   are looking
   for
   in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire,
   and what
   type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses),
   low
   tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All
   this might
   determine the best makers for you to consider.
   Model and bass string type:
   The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly
   by the
   type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is
   sometimes
   felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice
   (Vienna
   Frei)
   if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped
   basses
   (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses.
   If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer
   string
   length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed
   Tieffenbrucher,
   Burkholzer  etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this
   mainly on
   Burwell,
   possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de
   Dieux
   manuscript.
   Sustain and clarity:
   Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the
   ideal
   lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having
   the two
   almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: <> Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8.
   Anthony Bailes suggests that "sustain" was so essential to the French
   musicians
   that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna
   lutes.
   "The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments
   have more
   sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This
   is
   particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds
   on
   longer than it actually does." (Lute News 85, Avril 2008)
   In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his
   interpretation
   of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length,
   adopting a
   76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage
   lute
   affords.
   However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we
   approach that
   French ideal of sustain and clarity?
   I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei  (69 to
   71), such as
   that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the
   use of
   loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and
   sustain,
   while maintaining a good balance between registers.
   A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much
   bass for
   the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically
   accurate) for
   later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh,
   etc) giving
   good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain.
   I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb
   with
   loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if
   it might
   not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin
   Haycock's
   for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be
   determined by the
   qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute.
   It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but
   presumably a
   lute by Paul Thomson might near this.
   The best maker for your chosen model:
You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string
   length and
   string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly
   renowned for
   certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although
   they may
   be quite open to making other lute models.
   Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen
   by those
   proning low tension pure gut basses and who prefer the multi-ribbed
   Burkholzer
   or Greiss lutes (Satoh etc).
   Stri

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?

[Anthony Hind]

nch lutes c.1670: the evidence (iconography, early
   measurements - especially the Talbot MS, extant instruments)
   indicates that a string length around 68cm (say +/- 2cm) was what these
   particular Old Ones expected. Although Bailes used a 1722 Wenger
   instrument (possibly originally a gallichon - the instruments for which
   Wenger was best known) recently converted to an 11 course lute with a
   string length around 76cm on a CD of French lute music from around
   1670,  he conceded that 'As Martyn Hodgson quite rightly points out in
   his letter in the last issue of Lute News (No 94), a lute the size of
   the Wenger should not find acceptance as being ideal for the
   performance of 17th century French lute music'.

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 31/5/11, Anthony Hind  wrote:

 From: Anthony Hind 
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Top luthiers of 11-courser?
 To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Tuesday, 31 May, 2011, 14:04

   Dear Arto
The question might be what the characteristics are that you
   are looking
   for
   in an 11-course baroque lute, and for what part of the 11c repertoire,
   and what
   type of stringing you are hoping to use (particularly for the basses),
   low
   tension:high tension, pure gut or loaded basses, or synthetics? All
   this might
   determine the best makers for you to consider.
   Model and bass string type:
   The model (and maker) you may want to choose could be determined partly
   by the
   type of stringing you use. Although, for the French repertory it is
   sometimes
   felt that a 67cm Bologna style lute (or less) might be a typical choice
   (Vienna
   Frei)
   if you wish to use gut, this may mean you need to use loaded or gimped
   basses
   (at around 415) to avoid over thick basses.
   If you want to use pure gut, you may prefer to adopt a slightly longer
   string
   length, and possibly a larger bowl (Rauwolf, multi-ribbed
   Tieffenbrucher,
   Burkholzer  etc); these may be felt less French by some, who base this
   mainly on
   Burwell,
   possibly, ignoring evidence of models represented on the Rhetorique de
   Dieux
   manuscript.
   Sustain and clarity:
   Personally, I feel that Jakob Lindberg is right in considering that the
   ideal
   lute (for this and possibly other repertories) would be those having
   the two
   almost contradictory characteristics he claims for his Rauwolf: <> Lute Quaterly Mai 2007 P.8.
   Anthony Bailes suggests that "sustain" was so essential to the French
   musicians
   that this was what brought them to search out old Italian Bologna
   lutes.
   "The last, and most important point is that notes on such instruments
   have more
   sustain coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This
   is
   particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds
   on
   longer than it actually does." (Lute News 85, Avril 2008)
   In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his
   interpretation
   of this music that he is willing to sacrifice ideal string length,
   adopting a
   76cm historic Wenger lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage
   lute
   affords.
   However, vintage lutes not being readilly available ... how can we
   approach that
   French ideal of sustain and clarity?
   I feel a slightly longer string length than the Vienna Frei  (69 to
   71), such as
   that of the Warwick, or perhaps certain Mahler models, along with the
   use of
   loaded bass strings might give us a little more depth of sound and
   sustain,
   while maintaining a good balance between registers.
   A larger bodied lute with loaded basses might have a little too much
   bass for
   the French repertory, but be excellent (if not quite historically
   accurate) for
   later styles. they may work quite well with pure gut basses (Satoh,
   etc) giving
   good depth, but perhaps be somewhat lacking in sustain.
   I am very happy with my 69.5 cm 11c Warwick lute from Stephen Gottlieb
   with
   loaded basses; it does have good sustain and singing quality, even if
   it might
   not be quite so transparent in the top register, as some lutes (Martin
   Haycock's
   for example). Thus again your preference of lute maker may be
   determined by the
   qualities you find essential in a Baroque lute.
   It is difficult to unite all these qualities in the same lute, but
   presumably a
   lute by Paul Thomson might near this.
   The best maker for your chosen model:
You may perhaps look for a maker according to the model, string
   length and
   string type, you want to adopt. Certain makers may be particularly
   renowned for
   certain models (and associated with certain playing styles), although
   they may
   be quite open to making other lute models.
   Just to quote one, Richard Berg seems to be a maker frequently chosen
   by those
   proning low tension pure gut basses and who prefer the multi-ribbed
  

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Paul Beier Reusner 12c

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Lutenists
   I have just seen that the recording by Paul Beier  "Esaias 
ReusnerDelitiae Testudinis Volume 1 (Stradivarius STR 33867) sur luth 12c de 
Stephen Gottlieb (no doubt all gut strung) came out this May.
http://www.musico.it/lute/cd/beiercd_stradsolo_reusner1.html

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, if so I missed the message.
I have not yet been able to acquire the CD. Has anyone heard it yet?

Well, here is an MP3 extract:
http://www.musico.it/lute/media/reusner1.mp3
Best wishes
Anthony Hind




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Anthony Hind]

   My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to 392Hz,
   I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just shifted
   them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most of the
   mid and top strings.
   The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
   A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
   Anthony
   PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at 392,
   but perhaps not all.
 __

   De : sterling price 
   A : howard posner ; baroque lute list
   
   Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and
 2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will go
   that
 way.
 Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at A=392? I
 think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not convinced it
 should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm Burkholzer
 will stay at 415.
 -Sterling
 From: howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
 To: baroque lute list <[2]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM
 Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
 On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:
 > My question is: should I
 >  just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of strings
   for
 >  392?
 Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.
 > Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound better
 >  with new strings. Any thoughts?
 Do you like it at 392 now?
 --
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --

   --

References

   1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   2. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Anthony Hind]

For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is to have a number 
of different sized lutes.
Anthony



- Mail original -
De : William Samson 
À : Anthony Hind ; sterling price 
Cc : "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Envoyé le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

   As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned to 392Hz is
   ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a higher pitch
   standard - usually 415Hz.  That's where a 66cm baroque lute would be
   useful.  Having said that, not many lutes that small have survived.  Of
   course, the old guys (unlike me) might have been able to transpose a
   semitone up without any trouble.

   Bill
   From: Anthony Hind 
   To: sterling price 
   Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 9:06
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
     My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to
   392Hz,
     I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just
   shifted
     them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most of
   the
     mid and top strings.
     The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
     A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
     Anthony
     PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at
   392,
     but perhaps not all.
       __
     De : sterling price <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
     A : howard posner <[2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; baroque lute list
     <[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
     Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
     Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
       Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and
       2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will go
     that
       way.
       Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at A=392? I
       think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not convinced
   it
       should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm
   Burkholzer
       will stay at 415.
       -Sterling
       From: howard posner <[1][4]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
       To: baroque lute list <[2][5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
       Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM
       Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
       On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:
       > My question is: should I
       >  just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of strings
     for
       >  392?
       Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.
       > Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound better
       >  with new strings. Any thoughts?
       Do you like it at 392 now?
       --
       To get on or off this list see list information at
       [3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
       --
     --
   References
     1. mailto:[7]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
     2. mailto:[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
     3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com
   2. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   5. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   8. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392

[Anthony Hind]

I was rather thinking of a singer being accompanied by a single lute, in which 
perhaps the choice of lute might be secondary and determined by the best range, 
and tonal agreement with the singer. In the case of a singer adapting to an 
orchestra, I imagine you would be right.

Anthony



- Mail original -
De : Martyn Hodgson 
À : William Samson ; "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
; Anthony Hind 
Cc : 
Envoyé le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 12h58
Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392


   Dear Anthony,

   Unless outside their range, won't singers simply transpose to fit with
   the key/pitch of the accompaniment rather than the band having to
   change instruments?

   regards

   Martyn
   --- On Tue, 29/11/11, Anthony Hind  wrote:

     From: Anthony Hind 
     Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
     To: "William Samson" ,
     "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
     Date: Tuesday, 29 November, 2011, 11:41

   For accompanying singers, also, the answer, unfortunately, is to have a
   number of different sized lutes.
   Anthony
   - Mail original -
   De : William Samson <[1]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>
   A : Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; sterling price
   <[3]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
   Cc : "[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[5]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 10h27
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
      As far as I can see the only show-stopper for a lute tuned to 392Hz
   is
      ensemble work, when the other musicians are tuned to a higher pitch
      standard - usually 415Hz.  That's where a 66cm baroque lute would be
      useful.  Having said that, not many lutes that small have survived.
   Of
      course, the old guys (unlike me) might have been able to transpose a
      semitone up without any trouble.
      Bill
      From: Anthony Hind <[6]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
      To: sterling price <[7]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
      Cc: "[8]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[9]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
      Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2011, 9:06
      Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
        My 70 cm Warwick works well at 392Hz. While going from 407Hz to
      392Hz,
        I wanted to raise the tension of the basses slightly, so I just
      shifted
        them along one increment (C1 to D2 etc). However, I changed most
   of
      the
        mid and top strings.
        The basses were two years old, but still seem good.
        A smaller lute, as Ed suggests, might be better at 415.
        Anthony
        PS My intuition might be that certain pieces are better played at
      392,
        but perhaps not all.

   __
        De : sterling price <[1][10]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
        A : howard posner <[2][11]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; baroque lute
   list
        <[3][12]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
        Envoye le : Mardi 29 Novembre 2011 5h18
        Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
          Hi-After just playing it now, I like the basses but the 1st and
          2nd courses could be higher tension of course so I think I will
   go
        that
          way.
          Just curious--how many of you are playing baroque lutes at
   A=392? I
          think it works quite well on a larger lute, but I'm not
   convinced
      it
          should be done on a smaller lute(ie below 69cm). My 70.5cm
      Burkholzer
          will stay at 415.
          -Sterling
          From: howard posner <[1][4][13]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
          To: baroque lute list <[2][5][14]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
          Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:15 PM
          Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: A=392
          On Nov 28, 2011, at 5:15 PM, sterling price wrote:
          > My question is: should I
          >  just tune the same 415 strings down or get a new set of
   strings
        for
          >  392?
          Yes.  Those are pretty much the only two options.
          > Right now it is at 392 but I'm wondering if it might sound
   better
          >  with new strings. Any thoughts?
          Do you like it at 392 now?
          --
          To get on or off this list see list information at
          [3][6][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
          --
        --
      References
        1. mailto:[7][16]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
        2. mailto:[8][17]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
        3. [9][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
      --
   References
      1. mailto:[19]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
      2. mailto:[20]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
      3. mailto:[21]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
      4. mailto:[22]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
      5. mailto:[23]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
      6. [24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
      7. mailto:[25]howardpo

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD

[Anthony Hind]

   Dear Mathias
You seem to regret having been hooked by Anthony Bailes' LP
   recording of  'Pieces de luth (and almost to to "blame me" for
   reminding you of it). I am sorry if that was a painful experience for
   you:
   %
   "All my prejudices were set, and I was sent for a long way." Mathias
   %
   Personally, it did not determine my whole approach to French Baroque
   music, but opened up a new area of interest, nothing closed, or set.
   I hope I remain constantly in an open attitude (certainly I am too full
   of doubts to be set in anything).
   %
 You are correct, the article in Lute News 85, April 2008, was
   Chris Goodwin's written version of AB's talk, which unfortunately I did
   not hear, but I presume that AB read it prior to printing. I think I
   can safely quote it (particularly as the points I make are also made in
   the notes of his CDs) I am sorry if you were not able to read the liner
   notes or the article.
   %
   He does mention his stringing in all the booklets relating to the
   Wengerer lute (his last two CDs), but as I made clear, he says nothing
   about th stringing of the 12c lute (a pity). I am sorry that you didn't
   remember it.
   Yes I read all the interesting discussion between AB and Martyn, and
   that is implied in my message (but I couldn't quote everything).
   %
   I did not say the "article" was experimental, as you can tell if you
   read your own quote (there is a full stop here not a semi-colon):
   >Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to
   historic
   >research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008,
   he
   %
   In the "article" he puts forward an interesting hypothesis for hand
   position near the bridge.
   I won't quote, but it is more or less that the slightly veiled quality
   of the old lutes calls for extra clarity (position near bridge) He also
   goes on to talk about the importance of sustain for this music, which
   can be achieved using old lutes (as explained in the talk and in his
   notes).
   The experimental approach came before and after the article : his
   experimenting these hypotheses directly with old lutes culminated in
   these recordings.
   %
   ">Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming  two
   almost
   >contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: "this has exactly
   what I
   >want. It has that clarity  but also sustain, which is amazing".
   %
   "Not sure what Mr Bailes experience really was or is. I'd be curious
   what his answer to your statement would be. " Mathias
   %
   It is clear in Chris Goodwin's resume: "The last, and most important
   point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain coupled with
   a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is particularly
   important as it can give the impression that a note sounds on longer
   than it actually does." (Lute News 85, Avril 2008).
   %
   However, if you read his liner notes to the records you will find he
   makes exactly the same points:
   I don't have the English quote to hand, but this is what he says in
   French:
   "de plus un instrument ancien a plus de soutien, particulierement dans
   l'aigu". et il affirme, " Toutes ces qualites sont benefiques (certains
   diraient cruciales) `a la performance du repertoire presente ici
   (Rhetorique des Dieux), particulierement quand le luth est accorde de
   la meme fac,on qu'il l'aurait ete au XVIIe siecle".
   %
   Let us say that this is almost exactly the same point made in his talk
   above.
   %
   I have invented nothing, just based my thoughts on his remarks in the
   talk and his notes to the records (I am sorry you were unable to read
   them).
   Anthony
 __________

   De : Mathias Roesel 
   A : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Vendredi 16 mars 2012 17h57
   Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
   Dear Anthony Hind!
   >Anthony Bailes LP recording of  'Pieces de luth'; EMI
   REFLEXE;
   >IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music.
   >After that I was hooked.
   So was I at the time. All my prejudices were set, and I was sent for a
   long
   way.
   >I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard this,
   his
   >most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular
   "Old
   >Gautiers Nightinghall") do seem to have become a little more
   >reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent
   excellent
   >string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan Larson,
   Lyons
   >Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (although, I imagine that
   with
   I don't