Re: [Elecraft] K3- ergonomics
And the TS-990 is huge on the desk and very heavy to move about. Not my cuppa! And, I have always been a Kenwood fan. Bill K-Line __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3- ergonomics
Anyone wanting more knobs and single functions can always buy a TS-990. It's only about $800 more than my loaded K3. Look at all the advantages that you'd have, in addition: -- larger footprint on the desk -- ~ 140 knobs to play with -- all sorts of controls that you may never use -- fantastic after-the-sale support by Kenwood (yeah, right!) Radios are somewhat like a good-quality paddle for CW. You have to buy the one that feels right for you. 73 de Jim - AD6CW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I had to have my orthopedic surgeon repair my hand from the Ergonomics on the K3 Har Bob K3DJC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Probably not, Steve. I use a Pigknob to control my K3 but not for any reasons dealing with K3 "ergonomic deficiencies." I contest with N1MM and do occasionally type a frequency into the CALL field to control the radio, and N1MM sends for me, but beyond that, I use the controls on the radio. I've tried a couple of software packages but gave them up, somehow it just "wasn't radio" for me. YMMV [actually, it sounds like it does :-)] 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org On 4/3/2014 9:34 PM, Stephen Bloom wrote: OK, so I gotta ask ...Am I the only one on this reflector who does the vast majority of his radio adjustments via CAT/software? About the only time I touch the radio is tuning the VFO nobs, Power up and down, and occasionally the AF gain. I like having the options (as opposed to say a FlexRadio) ...but I have too much equipment that plays together to mess around with buttons on a regular basis. 73 Steve KL7SB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Much the same, Ed. My K3 is much newer (#8004), but I've had a K2/100 with which I'm still pleased -- partially because I can repair anything in it and add some subtle improvements (I still have a K2 to-do list). K2 is still a very capable rig, but now in my 61st year as a ham, I decided to treat myself to the best. I also have K1, KX1 and KX3 -- and the FT-817 in a box. Today I'm recabling my shack (RG-8X becomes RG-213 past the lightning arresters) to support the KPA500/KAT500 which arrived on my doorstep yesterday -- and also recabling to let the KAT500 do the antenna switching (mostly, I have 4 antennas, but the 30 m dipole gets least use and I can't use high power there anyway). My interest in the hobby has been high and low over the years, but it is a great hobby. And unlike my other hobby (photography) the manufacturers don't do yearly updates -- fortunately! 73, Phil W7OX On 4/4/14, 10:24 AM, Edward R Cole wrote: Long ago I mentioned using the "last radio I would own" argument with my wife to acquire a K3/10. Well, I lied, and subsequently bought the KX3 (to replace my FT-817). The continuous stream of firmware upgrades does make this "sort-of" true, though. I have sn 4043, and once thought I was the newbie with a K3. Elecraft has sold as many since! To be a true "forever" radio it would have to be totally modular so hardware could be upgraded, as well. But making every stage a "plug-in" would result in a huge reliability issue. So it is inevitable that technology improvements will eventually overcome the present model. Some might say the KX3 is kind of that. Certainly provides the opportunity to explore new hardware design ideas. I am gratified that software updates are free. That really helped me to make the initial purchase. I am very happy with my K3 (which is the first radio that I can really say that about - in 56 years in ham radio). I like the KX3 for what it offers me particularly for portable/mobile use, but it does not replace the K3. I have the best combo: both radios. 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com "Kits made by KL7UW" Dubus Mag business: dubus...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Long ago I mentioned using the "last radio I would own" argument with my wife to acquire a K3/10. Well, I lied, and subsequently bought the KX3 (to replace my FT-817). The continuous stream of firmware upgrades does make this "sort-of" true, though. I have sn 4043, and once thought I was the newbie with a K3. Elecraft has sold as many since! To be a true "forever" radio it would have to be totally modular so hardware could be upgraded, as well. But making every stage a "plug-in" would result in a huge reliability issue. So it is inevitable that technology improvements will eventually overcome the present model. Some might say the KX3 is kind of that. Certainly provides the opportunity to explore new hardware design ideas. I am gratified that software updates are free. That really helped me to make the initial purchase. I am very happy with my K3 (which is the first radio that I can really say that about - in 56 years in ham radio). I like the KX3 for what it offers me particularly for portable/mobile use, but it does not replace the K3. I have the best combo: both radios. 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com "Kits made by KL7UW" Dubus Mag business: dubus...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
No, 60m was an example of the kind of thing that could be added. Of course that already works on the K3 and KX3. --wunder On Apr 4, 2014, at 5:07 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: > wunder, > > Are you saying the K3 (or KX3) band buttons skip 60 meters on yours? > That is not standard operation, but the band buttons can be set to skip any > selected bands the owner selects. Perhaps you have configured 60 meters out > of the band rotation. > > No need to extend the existing band button operation - it has already been > done. > See the menu item CONFIG: BND MAP - (K3 manual page 54) bands can be excluded > from the up and down band button operation. > > The KX3 has the same capability. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > On 4/4/2014 1:56 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: >> You could extend an existing button function. Perhaps add the 60m band to >> the band up/down buttons. > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org -- Walter Underwood wun...@wunderwood.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I have only one small complaint about the ergonomics. I think the POWER button should be on the top left of the panel. My last two radios had it there and I was used to it. I've learned to use it at it's present location so it's a very minor gripe. 73 Roger __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
wunder, Are you saying the K3 (or KX3) band buttons skip 60 meters on yours? That is not standard operation, but the band buttons can be set to skip any selected bands the owner selects. Perhaps you have configured 60 meters out of the band rotation. No need to extend the existing band button operation - it has already been done. See the menu item CONFIG: BND MAP - (K3 manual page 54) bands can be excluded from the up and down band button operation. The KX3 has the same capability. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/4/2014 1:56 AM, Walter Underwood wrote: You could extend an existing button function. Perhaps add the 60m band to the band up/down buttons. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I picture myself walking into a ham radio shop (remember the days when we used to do that weekly?) and I go to the HF transceiver section and I see: On the far left the are the tiny SDR boxes that you can only operate via a computer and the front panel choices are all software and essentially everyone can have their own front panel. On the far left are the enormous TS-990 type transceivers where the front panel includes every function you might ever need and several graphic displays to show anything you might ever want to look at. In between is a wide range of transceiver choices across the spectrum, from tiny QRP radios with limited front panel functionality to medium sized desktop transceivers with lots of (but not all) buttons on the front panel and some menu functionality, etc. As someone who likes to do Field Day and the occasional state QSO party from a mobile environment, and does lots of DXing and contesting from the home shack, and almost invariably uses computer logging as part of every operation, I walked to the center left of that "store" and first checked out the receivers and *then* played with the front panels - and the K3 won the bakeoff. I think that is what the Elecraft brand means - top notch receivers with clean transmitters in small packages that are designed to be used with computers an occasionally (or frequently) outside of the shack. That's where I'd like to see the Elecraft resources stay focused. There really is no shortage of good choices on the left and right of that HF section, but only a few quality choices in that "center left"... 73 John K3TN -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Ergonomics-tp7586478p7586527.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I used FT-2000, FT-897 previously and the K3 requires, which some people do not do, reading a manual. Once you have set it up to your need it works fine..during a contest all I need is there where it should be. I sold all the Japanese radios now and working mainly with the K3...not to forget the restaurated Drake 7-line which is next to it. (it also has different ergonomics) And as Monty stated you have to learn the functions. Like the comparison with cars...one day a convertible is cool, the other day a roadster or a hatch. Each handles differently and has different controls...depends on what you want. For the "Knob lovers" the Y,K and I of this world offer their, what I call, "Shack Altars" for a 5 digit amount of bucks..you pay for knobs you turn maybe once a year! Easy spottable by the dust accumulation over a month. :-) I like the K3 as it is! It´s like a roadster .. small, lightweight, pure, handles easily and gives direct feedback! AND if you do not know to drive it, it will not excuse mistakes. If you do not know what you do, you can completely misconfigure your K3! My 2 cent on this topic... 73s Bernie DL5RDP -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: MontyS [mailto:mon...@mindspring.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 4. April 2014 00:14 An: David and Dianne on Comcast; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I Own". I had a K3, and loved it, for over 5 years. I will probably get another one in the future. I've owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 - the first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro with a color screen, a Kenwood TS 840 that was solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios. The K3's ergonomics are different, but pretty easy to learn unless one needs hundreds of buttons and knobs. Monty K2DLJ Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with me and very insightful. I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me. When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude towards it has changed in the past two years or so. It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and rarer occurrences if at all. I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3 for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing). Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise. But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-) 73 de N1LQ-Dave __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to mon...@mindspring.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
You could extend an existing button function. Perhaps add the 60m band to the band up/down buttons. Or add a mode to the mode buttons. That would be one way to include ESSB or Synchronous AM detection. The mode rotation on my Lowe HF-150 includes several flavors of AM. I doubt it will happen, but I'd sure like a GEN (general coverage) band on the rotation. It is weird for frequencies outside the ham bands to end up glommed onto the nearest band. Yes, I know this gets into which bands are available in which country, but it is a common feature in other radios. wunder K6WRU On Apr 3, 2014, at 10:37 PM, "Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT" wrote: > I do have one rhetorical question for the group on this topic, and it applies > to my KX3 as well. > > Unlike brand Y, or brand K, or brand I, these radios are largely software > defined, and features can be added that weren't part of the original design. > > While I don't have a list handy, I'm sure that's happened to the K3. > > How do you put buttons on the front panel of a radio for features that aren't > even part of the original design? > > I'm sure that's one of the reasons for the macro buttons, but the ultimate > answer is probably 100% touch screen. > > 73 -- Lynn > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org -- Walter Underwood wun...@wunderwood.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I do have one rhetorical question for the group on this topic, and it applies to my KX3 as well. Unlike brand Y, or brand K, or brand I, these radios are largely software defined, and features can be added that weren't part of the original design. While I don't have a list handy, I'm sure that's happened to the K3. How do you put buttons on the front panel of a radio for features that aren't even part of the original design? I'm sure that's one of the reasons for the macro buttons, but the ultimate answer is probably 100% touch screen. 73 -- Lynn __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
OK, so I gotta ask ...Am I the only one on this reflector who does the vast majority of his radio adjustments via CAT/software? About the only time I touch the radio is tuning the VFO nobs, Power up and down, and occasionally the AF gain. I like having the options (as opposed to say a FlexRadio) ...but I have too much equipment that plays together to mess around with buttons on a regular basis. 73 Steve KL7SB -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Vic Rosenthal K2VCO Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:39 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics I too am an 'old' K3 owner (in more than one sense). I have K3 #0007. Yes, /seven/. I was one of the incredibly lucky members of a focus group when the K3 was still in prototype form. I love my K3 as much as anyone can 'love' a radio. But I agree with Dave, Joe and Ian that the K3 still has some rough edges. My analysis is that this is an economic problem. Elecraft has to pay the bills, which they can't do unless they sell stuff. I once suggested to Wayne that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, possibly with specialized features that not everyone would want. That would give them some revenue to finance continued development for existing products. He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever charge anything for firmware updates. In any transaction you get what you pay for, and we have no way to pay for continued K3 development. On 4/3/2014 2:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote: > Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on > with me and very insightful. > > I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further > development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features > as mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for > SIX years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me. > > When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the > development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude > towards it has changed in the past two years or so. > > It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined > into an even better rig rather than into an apparent development > stepping stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, > one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support > and upgrades is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad > business and technology related reasons. I view promises from any > manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, > long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It never > continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner > than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to > be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out > hope for any further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has > been far better with it than most but it appears that the K3 with > 8000+ units sold is now a mature product which will see refinements > and enhancements as rarer and rarer occurrences if at all. > > I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and > Elecraft of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni > V.9 more and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably > with the K3 for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a > very strange business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing). > > Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 > seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean > you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise. > > But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with > stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of > flavor. ;-) > > 73 de N1LQ-Dave -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to sbl...@acsalaska.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
OK Wayne and all the rest: I don't hang on the list eagerly waiting for the latest firmware update. After I got my K3 kit [#642], I was inundated with firmware updates. Most were important and meant something to me, I knew I'd bought in early and expected this. As time passed, the update frequency declined [Yea!] and many were for accessories or features I don't use and never will, and I for one am very glad the update frequency is decreasing. My radio works, I have learned how to use nearly all the knobs and switches, and I'm really happy with it as it is. I did the big K3/KPA500/KAT500 update reluctantly, and only because I know one of the KPA500 engineers and he demanded that I do it. I won't update my K2 firmware, even if you pay me to do it, my K2 does exactly what I want it to do and I'm not messing with that. Other than the 30/80 module, I don't think there has been a firmware update to the KX1 and that's just fine with me too. I'm an engineer, I don't know much about ergonomics, and I wondered about the date on the post, but every radio I've ever had, including the RME45 and SX28 receivers and the ARC-5 transmitters has had a learning curve. My FT-847 is way harder to understand than my K3. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org On 4/3/2014 6:28 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote: And don't worry, there will be firmware updates for all K-line gear in the future. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
> I once suggested to Wayne that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, > possibly with specialized features that not everyone would want. That would > give them some revenue to finance continued development for existing products. > > He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever charge > anything for firmware updates. I can imagine the nasty world of managing a whole slew of different versions of the K3 (firmware) if Elecraft started releasing options for a fee. That means that if they did this enough times, no two K3s would be the same (well, yes that is a little extreme) -- But, the problem is not receiving money for the firmware updates but the added expense of managing versions of your software. The way things are now, each release includes all fixes, patches, and updates of earlier releases -- the smart way to maintain software in the field. I have been in the software business for 45 years and 35 of that was delivering custom systems from a common base where managing updates and bug fixes was a nightmare. It is still a nightmare since the nature of the software virtually ruled out the idea of deploying the same system over and over. Our software maintenance staff was larger then the development staff. Elecraft should work to avoid problems like that whenever they can. I applaud Wayne's decision because it is the right thing to do business-wise. 73, phil, K7PEH On Apr 3, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Vic Rosenthal K2VCO wrote: > I too am an 'old' K3 owner (in more than one sense). I have K3 #0007. Yes, > /seven/. I was one of the incredibly lucky members of a focus group when the > K3 was still in prototype form. > > I love my K3 as much as anyone can 'love' a radio. But I agree with Dave, Joe > and Ian that the K3 still has some rough edges. > > My analysis is that this is an economic problem. Elecraft has to pay the > bills, which they can't do unless they sell stuff. I once suggested to Wayne > that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, possibly with specialized > features that not everyone would want. That would give them some revenue to > finance continued development for existing products. > > He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever charge > anything for firmware updates. > > In any transaction you get what you pay for, and we have no way to pay for > continued K3 development. > > On 4/3/2014 2:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote: >> Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with >> me and very insightful. >> >> I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further >> development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as >> mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX >> years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me. >> >> When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the >> development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude >> towards it has changed in the past two years or so. >> >> It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into >> an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping >> stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the >> shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades >> is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and >> technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT, >> ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware >> development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain >> time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially >> expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope >> ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further >> meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it >> than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a >> mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and >> rarer occurrences if at all. >> >> I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft >> of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more >> and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3 >> for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange >> business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing). >> >> Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 >> seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean >> you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise. >> >> But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with >> stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of >> flavor. ;-) >> >> 73 de N1LQ-Dave > > > -- > 73, > Vic, K2VCO > Fresno CA > http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ > > ___
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I too am an 'old' K3 owner (in more than one sense). I have K3 #0007. Yes, /seven/. I was one of the incredibly lucky members of a focus group when the K3 was still in prototype form. I love my K3 as much as anyone can 'love' a radio. But I agree with Dave, Joe and Ian that the K3 still has some rough edges. My analysis is that this is an economic problem. Elecraft has to pay the bills, which they can't do unless they sell stuff. I once suggested to Wayne that he charge something for 'premium' firmware, possibly with specialized features that not everyone would want. That would give them some revenue to finance continued development for existing products. He told me -- in no uncertain terms -- that Elecraft would never, ever charge anything for firmware updates. In any transaction you get what you pay for, and we have no way to pay for continued K3 development. On 4/3/2014 2:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote: Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with me and very insightful. I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me. When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude towards it has changed in the past two years or so. It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and rarer occurrences if at all. I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3 for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing). Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise. But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-) 73 de N1LQ-Dave -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Sometimes a useful way to put it, like when discussing buying the K3/P3, KX3, KPA500 and KAT500 with my wife. And who knows, at my age Elecraft may not come up with one better soon enough (Murphy's Law may attack me now, with some imminent Elecraft announcement unrelated to the KX3) :-) My last (excuse me -- most recent!) main rig -- until the K-line this year -- was the K2/100, and I'm still improving that one, here and there. 73, Phil W7OX On 4/3/14, 6:48 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: Since "last rig" implies something far more final, I'd agree with the original poster. I don't want a "last rig" either. 73 -- Lynn On 4/3/2014 5:55 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote: Sounds like you're going for "last rigS" __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@socal.rr.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Since "last rig" implies something far more final, I'd agree with the original poster. I don't want a "last rig" either. 73 -- Lynn On 4/3/2014 5:55 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote: Sounds like you're going for "last rigS" __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
> Guess I stirred up a hornet's nest on the ergonomics subject. I spent the day alternately documenting the color and size of the hornets, for future reference, and hiding from them. > However, that said, after the last round of firmware updates my K-Line has > become the best station I have ever owned. Simply put: It does what it is > advertised to do - pretty much as easy or complicated as you choose. Glad to hear that, Bill. And don't worry, there will be firmware updates for all K-line gear in the future. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Sounds like you're going for "last rigS", Marty :-) Phil W7OX On 4/3/14, 3:13 PM, MontyS wrote: I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I Own". I had a K3, and loved it, for over 5 years. I will probably get another one in the future. I've owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 - the first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro with a color screen, a Kenwood TS 840 that was solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I have to compare the K2 firmware development and its time span with the firmware development of the K3. The K2 was introduced in 1999 and its firmware was improved to add new functions up until about 2006 (about the time the K3 was being developed). Yes, the update rate slowed considerably over time, and besides the K2 firmware cost the builder extra dollars. Since 2006, there were only 2 additional firmware updates - MCU 2.04P/IOC 1.09 to support the addition of the K2 Keying waveshape mod and the K60XV and then later MCU 2.04r was released with the only change being the selection of a sidetone source between U6 pin 25 and U8 pin 4 was restricted to U8 pin 4 because of numerous support calls and emails because "My K2 has lost its sidetone". There will likely be no more K2 firmware updates unless it is required to support a change required by an obsolete component that is no longer available - the K2 is a mature product. The most active firmware development was in the first 4 years. As for the K3, yes firmware updates slowed as development work on the KX3 was coming on line at Elecraft which kept the K3 MCU and DSP firmware (and hardware) developers busy with KX3 tasks, but there *have* been K3 firmware updates during that timeframe too, they were just slower coming. The K3 was first available in 2008 which makes it now almost 6 years old - like the K2, firmware upgrades were most active in the first 4 years - plus, the firmware upgrades for the K3 are at no cost to the owner. Development cost for firmware upgrades do exist, and there is no cost recovery for Elecraft except that produced by new K3 sales and the introduction on new products to amortize that cost. Keep in mind that there are two primary firmware developers who share their efforts between the K3 and KX3 (one for the K2). Other firmware developers were brought on line for the P3, the KPA500, the KAT500, and the KXPA100/KXAT100, but those developers are multitasking too, and they have to focus their efforts on the higher priority items - one of which *may* be the new product that is to be revealed this weekend. That is not to say that things still "on the K3 list" will not get attention, I am only saying that the rate will slow down given development time taken from the necessary attention to the 'new goodies' from Elecraft. Elecraft is not large enough to allow one employee to dedicate all his time to a single development task, so all are multitasking at all times. When I was with IBM, such dedication to a single task was possible, but Elecraft is nowhere the size of IBM and does not have those huge resources available. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2014 8:01 PM, Ian White wrote: I have to admit, I find most of this discussion a bit odd. Why, is the K3 less "fun" today than it was two years ago? Why do you expect Elecraft to deliver more radio than you purchased? Because that is precisely what Elecraft did deliver in the early days of the K3 - both the "fun" part and the "more radio". The early adopters purchased the K3 with a lot of rough edges, on the explicit understanding that there would be ongoing firmware upgrades; and for a while, Elecraft delivered on that promise. We did get more radio than we had originally purchased because that was part of the bargain. While major features were still being worked on, K3 owners were happy to cut Elecraft some slack about numerous issues of lower priority. We were content with Elecraft's acknowledgement that "It's on the list". The cause for disquiet now is that the K3 upgrade process has tapered off prematurely. As Elecraft's attention has turned to other products, many of those "on the list" issues remain unaddressed. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Guess I stirred up a hornet's nest on the ergonomics subject. However, that said, after the last round of firmware updates my K-Line has become the best station I have ever owned. Simply put: It does what it is advertised to do - pretty much as easy or complicated as you choose. So, I guess Grape flavor would be OK for me - pass the Kool-Aid. Bill K-Line __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
>I have to admit, I find most of this discussion a bit odd. > >Why, is the K3 less "fun" today than it was two years ago? Why do you >expect Elecraft to deliver more radio than you purchased? Because that is precisely what Elecraft did deliver in the early days of the K3 - both the "fun" part and the "more radio". The early adopters purchased the K3 with a lot of rough edges, on the explicit understanding that there would be ongoing firmware upgrades; and for a while, Elecraft delivered on that promise. We did get more radio than we had originally purchased because that was part of the bargain. While major features were still being worked on, K3 owners were happy to cut Elecraft some slack about numerous issues of lower priority. We were content with Elecraft's acknowledgement that "It's on the list". The cause for disquiet now is that the K3 upgrade process has tapered off prematurely. As Elecraft's attention has turned to other products, many of those "on the list" issues remain unaddressed. So the answer to your question, "Is the K3 less 'fun' today than it was two years ago?" is: "Yes". I still wouldn't trade my K3 for anything else, but the fun of ownership is being replaced by disappointment that the K3 still has not reached its full potential. 73 from Ian GM3SEK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I don’t get the whole ergonomics thing as I find the radio easy to use. Its way easier than my IC-7000 which is a small radio but has way more layers of menus. ~73 Don KD8NNU -.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..- -Original Message- From: MontyS Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2014 6:13 PM To: David and Dianne on Comcast ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I Own". I had a K3, and loved it, for over 5 years. I will probably get another one in the future. I've owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 - the first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro with a color screen, a Kenwood TS 840 that was solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios. The K3's ergonomics are different, but pretty easy to learn unless one needs hundreds of buttons and knobs. Monty K2DLJ Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with me and very insightful. I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me. When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude towards it has changed in the past two years or so. It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and rarer occurrences if at all. I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3 for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing). Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise. But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-) 73 de N1LQ-Dave __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to mon...@mindspring.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to gold...@charter.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I have to admit, I find most of this discussion a bit odd. Why, is the K3 less “fun” today than it was two years ago? Why do you expect Elecraft to deliver more radio than you purchased? If I buy an SL245 (that’s a car, not a radio!), I don’t then 3 years later grouse about the fact that it won’t seat 5 comfortably, that it hasn’t met met my personal benchmark of 0-60 in under 2 seconds, and whine that Mercedes hasn’t “finished” the car (which it seems really means they haven’t delivered some feature we’ve dreamed up that it doesn’t have). Sure, there are some things I’d like to see in the radio that aren’t there. But I don’t have any expectations that Elecraft is going to continue to rock my socks off with fabulous new features or deliver a new 50 lb cabinet with every possible function available on a dedicated rotary control suitable for operation with big cartoon hands. Ok, I do wish that it had a belt clip and 7 days of battery life with Windows 8.1 on the screen and a version of Siri to control it, but that said …. What “further” development have the guys that bought the $12,000.00 radios a few years ago seen? If we get something, that’s good. And I think we’ve done pretty well. If we don’t, it’s still a freaking K3 for goodness sake, regardless of what you now find lacking. If you’re really having buyer’s remorse, there are other options … Grant NQ5T On Apr 3, 2014, at 4:12 PM, David and Dianne on Comcast wrote: > Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with me > and very insightful. > > I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further > development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as > mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX years > to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me. > > When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the > development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude towards it > has changed in the past two years or so. > > It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into an > even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping stone for > the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the shortcomings > of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades is usually not > fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and technology related > reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) > concerning future, long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It > never continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner > than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be > forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any > further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with > it than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature > product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and rarer > occurrences if at all. > > I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft of > late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and more. > Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3 for my op > style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange business direction > of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing). > > Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 seems to > still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no bad will > nor is my intention to convince you otherwise. > > But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with stacking > registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-) > > 73 de N1LQ-Dave __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I don't want any rig to be the "last rig I Own". I had a K3, and loved it, for over 5 years. I will probably get another one in the future. I've owned a HW-100, a Swan - the first with a digital readout, a Kachina 505 - the first computer-controlled radio, an IC-756 Pro with a color screen, a Kenwood TS 840 that was solid as a rock, and the Elecraft K3 as main radios. The K3's ergonomics are different, but pretty easy to learn unless one needs hundreds of buttons and knobs. Monty K2DLJ Joe, W4TV and Ian, GM3SEK; I found both of your posts to be spot on with me and very insightful. I own K3 #371 and have been disappointed with the lack of its further development in the past 18 months or the "finishing" of some features as mentioned by Ian.. And as much as I have tried, really tried, for SIX years to adapt to the "tap and hold" button feature...it's not for me. When new, the K3 was a blast to own, to use and to participate in the development of it for about the first four years. But my attitude towards it has changed in the past two years or so. It's not the the K3 is "bad", far from it, but it could be refined into an even better rig rather than into an apparent development stepping stone for the KX3 which holds no interest here for me. To me, one of the shortcomings of SDR is that the promise of on-going support and upgrades is usually not fulfilled in the long run, for myriad business and technology related reasons. I view promises from any manufacturer (TT, ICOM, Kenwood, Flex etc.) concerning future, long-term firmware development with great skepticism. It never continues past a certain time-frame which is usually ends much sooner than one initially expects. As for updated/redeveloped K3 boards to be forthcoming, I hope ... but expect not. So I am not holding out hope for any further meaningful development for the K3. Elecraft has been far better with it than most but it appears that the K3 with 8000+ units sold is now a mature product which will see refinements and enhancements as rarer and rarer occurrences if at all. I have found myself contemplating parting ways with the K3 and Elecraft of late being drawn back to using my TT Corsair II and Omni V.9 more and more. Highly modified by me, they compete very favorably with the K3 for my op style and expectations. (IMO TT has gone in a very strange business direction of late which causes me to wonder what they are doing). Everyone is entitled to their personal opinions and for most the K3 seems to still be the epitome of HF rig evolution. That's fine. I mean you no bad will nor is my intention to convince you otherwise. But after six years I still miss my dedicated band switching (with stacking registers) and I still don't like Kool-Aid regardless of flavor. ;-) 73 de N1LQ-Dave __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to mon...@mindspring.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3- ergonomics
Howdy Gang: I'm holding out for the K4 (grin). 73, Joe W2KJ I QRP, therefore I am __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Odd I am 6'2 with big hands and I thought I would dislike the small size. I don't. I am thrilled with it especially for travel! I would not mind a K3 front panel on steroids for the home shack with more buttons. Sometimes the dual mode buttons can be confusing. The K3 could be more new operator friendly. Once you know the rig, making changes makes sense. Guest ops have some issues initially with the vast amount of customization that can go on. I am surprised that the screws issue is still being mentioned. I was sent new SS screws for my rigs and amp after getting back from J6 and noticing the rust issue. If you don't bring these issues up to Elecraft there is no way they are going to be able to help you. We sell on eBay with 100 percent 14 day money back guarantee and people will give bad feedback and never ever talk to us about the issue or give us a chance to fix the problem. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Remember in "Oh God" when George Burns as God admitted to Denver that he made a mistake and made the Avocado seed too large? I never forgot that part of the movie. When it comes to the K3, my only real ergonomics complaint the opposite of that seed problem, its that the VFO B knob is just too small. It makes it more difficult to fine tune a QRX transmit point and a larger knob would be more functional to me. Otherwise I have no issues with the ergonomics of the K3. 73, Gary Ka1j > In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many > people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard > things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of > the list)." > > What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not > the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly > challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's > just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go > for functionality of design - not eye candy. > > The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a > TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly > and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic. > > Bill K-Line --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I guess I am some sort of an oddball. I find no fault with my K3 at all. I had an FT-1000MP and to tell you the truth I found no fault with it either. The human interface is completely different, but you just learn to work it and then you know it and you never think about it again. Here is an example of what some might consider poor ergonomics: $ find . -maxdepth 1 -type f -name '\.*' | sed -e 's,^\./\.,,' | sort | xargs -iname mv .name name This unhides hidden files in the current GNU unix directory. This sort of command is known as an "incantation" and is hotly defended by those who love the unix human interface. The moral of the story (if there is one) is that the beauty of the ergonomics of some device is in the eye of the beholder. 73, Tony KT0NY __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
On Apr 3, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > > But, assume SAME K3 functionality. > > I'm not so sure *SAME* functionality is a fair question for the next > generation top of the line transceiver. > No, it isn't a fair question but why be fair when you can ask anything. But, I am now done with this topic as my interest in the new KX3 external accessory has grabbed all of my Elecraft attention bandwidth. 73, phil, K7PEH > Among other things, the headphone amplifier really needs to be a bit > more stout than 100 mW - 500 mW if not 1 watt is more appropriate even > if the design includes some build out resistors to limit SPL. The > speaker amplifier could certainly be more robust as well - 1.5 W per > channel doe not cut it in all cases - 5 or 10 W per channel is more > appropriate so the amplifier is not being run to it ragged edge and > possibly distortion under normal operation. > > I've already listed several of the dual function controls that get > a lot of workout. One can also add APF which is the *second* function > on a little used XFIL button and a bank of five to eight PF buttons to > those things that would be highly desirable. > > On the inside - consider a better second mixer than the 612 to improve > window IMD. Others have already mentioned putting the notch filters > *inside* the AGC loop. 24 or 48 volt finals would move transmit IMD > from the barely adequate low -30 dB range to around -40 dB as well as > offer 200 W capability for those who don't use an external amplifier. > Perhaps the synthesizer handling could be improved to allow transmit on > either VFO with the main and subreceiver on different bands. Finally, > consider a controller with more capability and DSP predistortion to > really make the transmit IMD shine. > > None of this is difficult - nor even ground breaking technology - but > it would significantly improve a transceiver designed for home station > use rather than cripple an otherwise fine design by limiting size and > current consumptions. I would guess the differential cost would be > less than $800 - and would be well worth it, IMO. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 4/3/2014 1:42 PM, Phil Hystad wrote: >> My 2-bits: |u> and |d> >> >> OK, what if Elecraft took the K3 and did a major ergonomic redesign of the >> radio and called it the K3-Ergo. It could be twice as large, many single >> function buttons and dials and maybe even a more expanded multicolor LCD >> screen. But, assume SAME K3 functionality. >> >> How much more would this cost, maybe $300, $500, or maybe $750 more? >> >> As for me and my ham shack -- leave the ergonomics alone, they are fine by >> me. I like the K3 for what it is, not what people think it should be. When >> the Elecraft bunch come out with a new radio, I will consider its benefits >> and features but look-and-feel will not be on top of the list. But, then, I >> like the approach that Wayne and Eric and other other designers take on the >> radios and other equipment. >> >> 73, phil, K7PEH >> >> On Apr 3, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote: >> >>> Amen >>> >>> On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is > not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it > particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - > but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or > plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ... I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly packed, dual function controls and looking the same. While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: > In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many > people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment a
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
> But, assume SAME K3 functionality. I'm not so sure *SAME* functionality is a fair question for the next generation top of the line transceiver. Among other things, the headphone amplifier really needs to be a bit more stout than 100 mW - 500 mW if not 1 watt is more appropriate even if the design includes some build out resistors to limit SPL. The speaker amplifier could certainly be more robust as well - 1.5 W per channel doe not cut it in all cases - 5 or 10 W per channel is more appropriate so the amplifier is not being run to it ragged edge and possibly distortion under normal operation. I've already listed several of the dual function controls that get a lot of workout. One can also add APF which is the *second* function on a little used XFIL button and a bank of five to eight PF buttons to those things that would be highly desirable. On the inside - consider a better second mixer than the 612 to improve window IMD. Others have already mentioned putting the notch filters *inside* the AGC loop. 24 or 48 volt finals would move transmit IMD from the barely adequate low -30 dB range to around -40 dB as well as offer 200 W capability for those who don't use an external amplifier. Perhaps the synthesizer handling could be improved to allow transmit on either VFO with the main and subreceiver on different bands. Finally, consider a controller with more capability and DSP predistortion to really make the transmit IMD shine. None of this is difficult - nor even ground breaking technology - but it would significantly improve a transceiver designed for home station use rather than cripple an otherwise fine design by limiting size and current consumptions. I would guess the differential cost would be less than $800 - and would be well worth it, IMO. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/3/2014 1:42 PM, Phil Hystad wrote: My 2-bits: |u> and |d> OK, what if Elecraft took the K3 and did a major ergonomic redesign of the radio and called it the K3-Ergo. It could be twice as large, many single function buttons and dials and maybe even a more expanded multicolor LCD screen. But, assume SAME K3 functionality. How much more would this cost, maybe $300, $500, or maybe $750 more? As for me and my ham shack -- leave the ergonomics alone, they are fine by me. I like the K3 for what it is, not what people think it should be. When the Elecraft bunch come out with a new radio, I will consider its benefits and features but look-and-feel will not be on top of the list. But, then, I like the approach that Wayne and Eric and other other designers take on the radios and other equipment. 73, phil, K7PEH On Apr 3, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote: Amen On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ... I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly packed, dual function controls and looking the same. While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)." What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly and has a nicer feel to it than hard plasti
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Nothing that follows has anything to do with ergonomics, which is the topic of this thread, but at my advanced age I no longer suffer fools gladly. I will answer other comments in another post but yours deserve special attention. My K3 is S/N 2059, what's yours? Mine would be even older but I wasn't about to order something that would be delivered a year later, so I waited until delivery time was a week or so. If _your_ radio has the microphonic killing VCO stiffener, it's because _my_ radio spent two months back at Elecraft as a guinea pig for the development of the stiffener. This was after I demonstrated the modulation of the VCO by the internal speaker, in my radio and his, to an Elecraft engineer in my shack. I also showed him the differences between my radio and his when the rf-gain was adjusted. Every radio is different in this regard until the "RF Gain Calibration" is performed. I spent hours beta testing this software so your radio will perform better. A question for you: Do you prefer "grape" Kool-Aid? Wes N7WS On 4/3/2014 6:05 AM, Kevin Stover wrote: Sour grapes from guys who can't believe the K3 is the equal of or better than their rig which they spent too much on (5 digits, anybody still have their FTDX-9000's) to get the 100+ pretty lights and useless, mostly unused buttons. They can't knock the rig on it's performance, 7 years later, so they bring up "ergonomics". One word describes that...Weak. On 4/3/2014 5:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)." __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
My 2-bits: |u> and |d> OK, what if Elecraft took the K3 and did a major ergonomic redesign of the radio and called it the K3-Ergo. It could be twice as large, many single function buttons and dials and maybe even a more expanded multicolor LCD screen. But, assume SAME K3 functionality. How much more would this cost, maybe $300, $500, or maybe $750 more? As for me and my ham shack -- leave the ergonomics alone, they are fine by me. I like the K3 for what it is, not what people think it should be. When the Elecraft bunch come out with a new radio, I will consider its benefits and features but look-and-feel will not be on top of the list. But, then, I like the approach that Wayne and Eric and other other designers take on the radios and other equipment. 73, phil, K7PEH On Apr 3, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote: > Amen > > On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: >> >>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is >>> not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it >>> particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - >>> but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or >>> plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. >> >> The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ... >> I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed >> bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of >> times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the >> number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or >> the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the >> KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly >> packed, dual function controls and looking the same. >> >> While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on >> my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the >> closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls >> that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a >> major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would >> be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio >> must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery >> and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals >> and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons. >> >> 73, >> >> ... Joe, W4TV >> >> >> On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: >>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many >>> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard >>> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of >>> the list)." >>> >>> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not >>> the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly >>> challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's >>> just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go >>> for functionality of design - not eye candy. >>> >>> The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a >>> TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly >>> and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic. >>> >>> Bill K-Line > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to phys...@mac.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Amen On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ... I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly packed, dual function controls and looking the same. While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)." What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic. Bill K-Line __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
On 4/3/2014 6:49 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly packed, dual function controls and looking the same. Gee, I've blamed an occasional wrong button push on my advancing years. I put my K3s to a rather wide range of uses (contesting, DX chasing, various digital modes) and with the sole exception of controls for the 2nd RX, I consider K3 ergonomics quite good. I appreciate that the settings of most controls are memorized on a per band and per mode basis, which means that I don't need to readjust things as often. Indeed, I view the more compact size as a huge plus, because it takes up less horizontal space on the operating desk. For the same reason, the design of the P3 as a separate box allows me to put it on top of the K3 rather than consuming additional desk space. I also appreciate size and weight when I want to carry it on an airplane! One of my neighbors, W0YK, regularly takes two K3s to Aruba in his carry-on (in custom cases by Rose)! I appreciate the reduced power consumption in my partially solar powered ham shack. One of the secrets of a successful small business is building enough volume for a product to write off development costs, with something left over to pay salaries, take an occasional vacation, and fund development of new products. That requires identifying the market for their products, understanding the needs of those users, and differentiating their products from the competition. From where I sit, Eric and Wayne have been very good at figuring out what products satisfy this condition, and which are unlikely to do so. It also helps if you can build one thing and sell it to everyone (like iPhone, iPad, etc.), so the more things it does well help build volume. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
On 4/3/14 12:11 PM, Ian White wrote: The *real* problem is that Elecraft has shown no interest in doing so. The stream of improvements that once made the K3 so exciting has slowed to a disappointing trickle, with too much still left undone. Like ergonomics, this feeling isn't universal. I'd much rather have a few significant improvements, rather than a steady stream of upgrades. Apparently some people substitute "excitement" for "frustration," which was my response to the constant tweaks. In fact, I held off on buying a K3 for years because the steady stream made the radio feel unfinished. However, I will say that I do appreciate it when Elecraft fixes something. That is what separates them from many of the other manufacturers. Yes to that! The K3 is my favorite radio ever... which is why I so hate to see it being left with so many rough edges. - but that isn't the point. The point is the 8000 K3s that are still "unfinished business". 73 from Ian GM3SEK You could always buy an Icom or a Yaesu. :-) Even their defective radios, like the 756Pro series or the FT2000, are finished business. Their tweaks upgrades come with a new tag and more $$. (I know I'm preaching to the choir here...) I suspect that because Elecraft actually makes real improvements to the K Line, these will always be "unfinished" to some degree, because someone, somewhere is always going to want a change they don't get. 73, Scott, N9AA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
"But I guess I'm in the minority...": Definitely not here :-) Phil W7OX On 4/3/14, 9:34 AM, Alan Bloom wrote: On 04/03/2014 05:44 AM, Mike Harris wrote: This must be a fairly recent thing, wanting all front panels to be the same except for the name. I actually prefer a metal chassis to a plastic one. The K3 looks like it was constructed rather than popped out of a mold. But I guess I'm in the minority... Alan N1AL __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
On 04/03/2014 05:44 AM, Mike Harris wrote: This must be a fairly recent thing, wanting all front panels to be the same except for the name. I actually prefer a metal chassis to a plastic one. The K3 looks like it was constructed rather than popped out of a mold. But I guess I'm in the minority... Alan N1AL __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
>> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many >> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally >>disregard things like ergonomics >> (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of >> the list)." >> W4TV replied: > >The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ... Correct. "Ergonomics" is not about good looks. Ergonomics is about the way that equipment interacts with human operator. And in ergonomics, the K3 does fall short of the competition. Outside of this [Elecraft] list, the K3 does have a reputation for being cranky to operate, requiring far too many button-pushes to do simple routine operations, and for being unforgiving of mistakes. Joe again: >I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed >bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of >times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the >number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or >the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the >KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly >packed, dual function controls and looking the same. > I agree with most of that, but not all of those operational problems are due to the hardware. Many can be fixed - or at the very least, considerably reduced - by firmware upgrades. The *real* problem is that Elecraft has shown no interest in doing so. The stream of improvements that once made the K3 so exciting has slowed to a disappointing trickle, with too much still left undone. >While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on >my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the >closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls >that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a >major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would >be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio >must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery Yes to that! The K3 is my favorite radio ever... which is why I so hate to see it being left with so many rough edges. Elecraft have already said no to the next part: >and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals >and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons. - but that isn't the point. The point is the 8000 K3s that are still "unfinished business". 73 from Ian GM3SEK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
My first Elecraft was a used K2 (that had serious problems). When I open the box, I was seriously disappointed with the looks of it. Hooking it up and listening along side my original 746, I heard a lot more stations on the K2 on my attic dipole than on my "real" outside antenna. I thought there was something wrong with my outside antenna. Long story short, I switched coax, meters, everything inline, and then antennas, everything and the K2 was SO much better. It was the radio, not the antenna. I was hooked. I did return the K2 because it had problems, wouldn't transmit on most bands more than a few tenths of a watt, and no more than 4 watts on any band, and that was a 100w radio. Now, I am going to order a new K2. Well..., I discovered the K3 and ordered it. Back then it took 5? Months. That was the longest 5 months in my life. And I loved doing the build when it finally got here. Performance is everything and I like the looks of my K3 now, not changing anything. Learning curve? Not necessarily, it works just fine as it comes. If you want to "tweak" (in your own mind) some settings later, go ahead, but it is not really necessary. Yes I do make my own changes but it does work just like it comes. 73, Jim KG0KP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Tuning in in the middle, but for my part, I’d much rather have multifunction knobs and buttons than menus buried in menus which are, in turn, buried in menus. I like that most of the menus on the Elecraft rigs are set once and forget. This makes me happy. And, unlike some manufacturers, Elecraft actually gives two craps about accessibility for blind operators. As someone or another has said, everything is a compromise some way, and I think the choices Elecraft has made in UI have been good ones, given other design criteria. I can’t speak about the K3 at all, sorry. I have a K2 though, and also a KX3, and think both are excellent. Both in performance and ergonomics. -- Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA Phone: (814) 860-3194 or (814) 431-0962 On Apr 3, 2014, at 11:05 AM, Phil Wheeler wrote: > I've been using Elecraft transceivers exclusively for 15 years (K2, now K3 as > primary base station), so my recent personal experience is limited. I have > heard it said that Elecraft approach of fewer buttons and knobs, with short > presses and long presses on the buttons, is less user-friendly than having > more buttons and knobs (the 50 lb FTdx-5000 appears to be festooned with > knobs and buttons). But beyond that I can't really comment: I'm happy with > the K3 ergonomics. I do get a bit confused by my KX3 at times, though -- more > by the differences between it and my K3 than anything else :-) > > 73, Phil W7OX > > On 4/3/14, 3:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: >> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many >> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard >> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the >> list)." >> >> What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to bu...@brannan.name __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I've been using Elecraft transceivers exclusively for 15 years (K2, now K3 as primary base station), so my recent personal experience is limited. I have heard it said that Elecraft approach of fewer buttons and knobs, with short presses and long presses on the buttons, is less user-friendly than having more buttons and knobs (the 50 lb FTdx-5000 appears to be festooned with knobs and buttons). But beyond that I can't really comment: I'm happy with the K3 ergonomics. I do get a bit confused by my KX3 at times, though -- more by the differences between it and my K3 than anything else :-) 73, Phil W7OX On 4/3/14, 3:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)." What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. The issue is not "lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding" ... I've given up counting the number of times the radio has changed bands when I meant to change modes or vice versa or the number of times I've engaged RIT when I wanted to turn off the speaker, the number of times I've reset VFO B when I wanted to engage split, or the number of times I've linked VFOs when I wanted to turn on the KRX-3. These are the problems with the limited number of tightly packed, dual function controls and looking the same. While I certainly appreciate the performance of the K3 - it is on my operating bench whilst the MK V and FT-2000 gather dust in the closet - having fewer dual function controls and band/mode controls that are physically separated and very different in design *IS* a major improvement in ergonomics. If I had but one wish it would be that Elecraft would give up on the thought that every radio must be capable of operating from a backpack on a small 12V battery and would produce a real home station radio with 24 or 48 V finals and a large front panel supporting separate band and mode buttons. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 4/3/2014 6:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)." What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go for functionality of design - not eye candy. The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic. Bill K-Line __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Good day, This must be a fairly recent thing, wanting all front panels to be the same except for the name. Over the years I've gone down the route of: Heathkit RA1 RX + HB TX, National NCX5 tcvr, FT101, Racal kit whilst in Antarctica, TS120V, Marconi and Eddystone equipment at the salt mine, nothing common between the lot of them except that the knobs turn and the switches switch. QRT 10 years. Returned in 2000 and built a K2 and eventually progressed to a K3 so quite used to the Elecraft format. However, I must say that I don't like the K3 soggy rubber buttons compared to the nice tactile click of the K2's. I thought that as big brained mammals we had the ability to learn and adapt or have the past couple of million years been waisted. We certainly seem to have evolved and discarded the "read the manual" gene, or is that just a man thing. Regards, Mike VP8NO On 03/04/2014 10:13, Gary Gregory wrote: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder somebody once told me! Performance to me IS everythingeye candy has never helped in a pileup. Just my nickels worth Gary Vk1ZZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder somebody once told me! Performance to me IS everythingeye candy has never helped in a pileup. Just my nickels worth Gary Vk1ZZ K3, KX3, KPA500-FT, KAT500-FT,P3. On 03/04/2014 11:05 PM, "Kevin Stover" wrote: > Sour grapes from guys who can't believe the K3 is the equal of or better > than their rig which they spent too much on (5 digits, anybody still have > their FTDX-9000's) to get the 100+ pretty lights and useless, mostly unused > buttons. > > They can't knock the rig on it's performance, 7 years later, so they bring > up "ergonomics". > > One word describes that...Weak. > > On 4/3/2014 5:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: > >> In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many >> people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard >> things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the >> list)." >> > > > -- > R. Kevin Stover > AC0H > ARRL > FISTS #11993 > SKCC #215 > NAQCC #3441 > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to vk1zzg...@gmail.com > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
Sour grapes from guys who can't believe the K3 is the equal of or better than their rig which they spent too much on (5 digits, anybody still have their FTDX-9000's) to get the 100+ pretty lights and useless, mostly unused buttons. They can't knock the rig on it's performance, 7 years later, so they bring up "ergonomics". One word describes that...Weak. On 4/3/2014 5:19 AM, Bill W2BLC wrote: In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of the list)." -- R. Kevin Stover AC0H ARRL FISTS #11993 SKCC #215 NAQCC #3441 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics
I'm a new ham and an even newer K3 owner. For anyone who is function over form any day, like me - Elecraft's "learning curve" is the whole point! If i had a radio for which i didn't even need to open the manual - i'd be bored with it in two days and probably wouldn't use it or care for it as much. I did get the SS Hardware upgrade by the way (just in case, just because it was merely $20 after spending over $4K). My .02c Slava (Sal) W2RMS On Apr 3, 2014, at 7:50 AM, Johnny Siu wrote: > Hello Bill, > > As I mentioned in this forum in the past, Elecraft is excellent in production > engineering. They use real good components for the critical parts but also > use the real cheapest components for the rest. It is nothing wrong with > Elecraft in terms of cost engineering and it is indeed a challenge to the > design engineer as well. > > As a result, you are now getting a tin box (yes, the advantage is light > weight) but with excellent specifications in numbers. I never gave a high > score for the ergonomic of elecraft radios. The screws in my K3 rust as well > and this never happens in any of my other radios. > > From time to time, I have been asked by local hams about my comments about > elecraft radios. I always say that elecraft radios are excellent but users > have to face a deep learning curve. I need to read the manuals from cover to > cover as well as KE7X's books. > > To conclude, I would consider Elecraft radios are really good but I have to > accept less favourable ergonomics and relatively primitive enclosure and > screws (yes, I know I can pay merely USD20 for stainless steel screws for an > over $2.5k radio). > > 73 > > Johnny VR2XMC > K2, K3, KX3, KAT500, KPA500, P3 > > > > 寄件人︰ Bill W2BLC > 收件人︰ elecraft@mailman.qth.net > 傳送日期︰ 2014年04月3日 (週四) 6:19 PM > 主題︰ [Elecraft] K3 - Ergonomics > > > In a post speaking to the Sherwood chart, it was said, "too many > people jump on one number to rate (rank) equipment and totally disregard > things like ergonomics (If they didn't the K3 would be at the bottom of > the list)." > > What is so bad about how the K3 is designed (ergonomics)? This is not > the first time I have seen this said. I do not find it particularly > challenging to use the panel controls or the menus - but, maybe that's > just me. Is it the lack of curves and swirls or plastic molding? I go > for functionality of design - not eye candy. > > The only thing I did to improve the controls on my K3 was to add a > TenTec tire to the main VFO knob - it increases the diameter slightly > and has a nicer feel to it than hard plastic. > > Bill K-Line > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to sla...@nullserv.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ergonomics & band switching
I have to agree that band switching on the K3 is not the most "user friendly" and having to "step though" all the bands is a pain in the butt. That said, you can only do so much within a givin size; many features that can be eaisly encorperated into/onto a large front panel have to be presented in a different way. I recently switched from a Orion 2 to the K3, and it has taken some "getting use to" the much smaller panel; though I don't really believe that the K3 has a "leg up" on the O2, it has some features that were not available on the O2 that I dearly wanted. As far as band changing; you can set up the first 10 memories, but you have to push two buttons (M>V amd then button 1 thur 0) and have to remember what number is what band is what number. Another option is to use PowerSDF/IF and not only is band/mode change easy, but you also have a great panadaptor (I think Elecrafts upcoming one will do the same, but it is not available and I bet will cost better than double what PowerSDF runs (about $375 plus a few bucks for a couple of interconnect cables). An unrelated feature of the Panadaptor is you can quickly QSY via point and click with your mouse. In any case, there is an option that will work right now and another one will be available in the near future. Dick K8ZTT - Original Message - From: "boyscout" To: Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 ergonomics > > > Val-12 wrote: >> >> We already have heard the same words 6-7 years ago. However the >> discussed rig was K2 and the dreamed one - K3. Now we have K3 >> bigger than K2. I'm sure that there will be voices for K5 bigger than K4 >> too. >> > > Yeah maybe, but compromises made to keep the K3 small are still very real > to > folks who don't have the Royal Jelly from 6-7 years of using Elecrafts. > > For the record, I have a 4-year-old K2 as well as a K3, but I also have a > Yaesu 1000D and there's a lot to be said for the ergonomics of the larger > radio. I've become accustomed to most of the K3's compromises for a small > front panel, but the one that still drives me CRAZY is band-switching by > stepping through the bands one at a time. If the K4 changes nothing else, > I > hope it changes that by providing a one-touch method for selecting a band. > -- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ergonomics
IMHO, the TS-2000 is a REALLY UGLY radio Doug, W6JD - Original Message - From: "r miles" To: "elecraft" Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 10:09:32 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [Elecraft] K3 ergonomics I went thru the same question. Being over 6' tall & I could 'palm' a basketball in my youth I wasn't sure. I used a friends K2 & K3 on FD the last 3 yr.s. I realized it was no more difficult or easier to operate than a big rig. Another friend has a TS 2000 which is 'prettier' maybe..but I wouldn't trade my K3 for three of them. It's also 'prettier' to move the K3 on the operating desk or take to FD than one of the 50-60 lb giants. I couldn't care less what it looks like on the outside anyway. I care what the insides DO. I'm not a full contester but a DXer. Just my opinion. k9il k3 # 2626 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 ergonomics
> Another fact is that many people like small radios and many people prefer > or even need a larger radio. My personal preference would be to have > the option of the incredible small and lightweight K-3 for > mobile/portable > use and then a larger K-4? for base operation... similiar electronics > and > performance of the K-3 but in a larger package with more front panel > controls, more spacing between controls, large and bright front panel >labeling of controls, individual band switch buttons, weighted smooth >wheeling main tuning knob, larger s-meter/power meter, and built-in >power supply. > Dick- K9OM > We already have heard the same words 6-7 years ago. However the discussed rig was K2 and the dreamed one - K3. Now we have K3 bigger than K2. I'm sure that there will be voices for K5 bigger than K4 too. 73, Val LZ1VB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
