Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[David W. Fenton]

On 1 Nov 2007 at 14:11, John Howell wrote:

> >David W. Fenton wrote:
> >>
> >>Quote:
> >>
> >>  Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There
> >>  never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, was
> >>  released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long
> >>  time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by,
> >>  helplessly, as their market share plummeted.
> 
> One assumes that this refers exclusively to Windows versions. 

Why would one assume that? There was no NS5, and NS6 came out around 
the time that article was written. NS7 came out after Mozilla 1.0 was 
released (because it was built on Mozilla 1.0). I don't recall 
precisely when 8 came out and didn't know there was a 9, but so far 
as I know there's been no difference between the numbering and 
releases of the Mac and Windows versions of Netscape. 

Perhaps you're referring to market share?

> The 
> Navigator on my present computer is v. 9.0.0.1.  And yes, I see that 
> the article is dated 7 1/2 years ago.  And that it's an opinion 
> piece, by someone with very strong opinions!

Someone whose opinions make a great deal of sense, it seems to me.

> Mark of the Unicorn did a complete new program--Composer's Mosaic--in 
> the early '90s, as a replacement for Professional Composer, which was 
> a real dog of a program hardly better than Music Construction Set. 
> And made it possible, no, EASY, to convert Composer files to Mosaic 
> files.  Unfortunately they later gave up on supporting their notation 
> program and veered off in other directions.  I guess the question 
> everyone seems to have is whether MM is going to do the same with 
> Finale.

Writing a completely new program is not the same thing as re-writing 
an existing program.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[John Howell]

David W. Fenton wrote:


Quote:

 Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There
 never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, was
 released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long
 time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by,
 helplessly, as their market share plummeted.


One assumes that this refers exclusively to Windows versions.  The 
Navigator on my present computer is v. 9.0.0.1.  And yes, I see that 
the article is dated 7 1/2 years ago.  And that it's an opinion 
piece, by someone with very strong opinions!


Mark of the Unicorn did a complete new program--Composer's Mosaic--in 
the early '90s, as a replacement for Professional Composer, which was 
a real dog of a program hardly better than Music Construction Set. 
And made it possible, no, EASY, to convert Composer files to Mosaic 
files.  Unfortunately they later gave up on supporting their notation 
program and veered off in other directions.  I guess the question 
everyone seems to have is whether MM is going to do the same with 
Finale.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[David W. Fenton]

On 1 Nov 2007 at 13:47, John Howell wrote:

> At 7:59 AM +0100 11/1/07, Jari Williamsson wrote:
> >David W. Fenton wrote:
> >>Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire codebase 
> >>and started from scratch.
> >
> >Which is kind of my point. A rewrite, using mainly the same kind of 
> >thinking, using mainly the same kind of tools, will not solve 
> >anything.
> 
> I think I understand both sides here, but they leave me confused. 
> Partly because I've used Netscape exclusively since I first gained 
> access to the internet, back in the early '90s, and have never wanted 
> or needed anything else.

If you designed web pages you'd know how defective NS4.x was (the 
last version created before Netscape chucked the code). In turn, 
Microsoft stopped developing their browser for a long time, and right 
now, web developers have to deal with the fact that Internet Explorer 
has a substandard implementation of the standards of HTML and CSS. 
This means that it's harder to produce interesting websites that work 
on all browsers.

>  Yes, it's now called Navigator,

It was always "Netscape Navigator."

> and it's 
> based (apparently) on Mozilla or Firefox or whatever, which is 
> supposed to be a big improvement, and yes, I'm learning to use Tabs, 
> but it still gives me the functionality I need.

The Netscape browser you're using today is built from the new 
codebase, but it really only became usable in 2001 or so (which is 
when I switched to Mozilla as my default browser, around version 
0.9.x, which was more than a year before the release of Mozilla 1.0, 
and more than 3 years before the release of FireFox 1.0, which is 
when the Mozilla project returned to viability as a mainstream web 
browser). It has been built on the new codebase since version 6, but 
it was a very buggy and slow browser in comparison to Internet 
Explorer from the same time period. It was, in fact, completely 
unusable back then.

> David's reasoning seems to be that Netscape lost money during a 
> fallow period, but that didn't affect me and it apparently didn't 
> cause the company to fail.

Eh? What are you talking about? In the mid to late 90s, Netscape was 
an independent company with a huge market capitalization (they were 
like Google is today -- everyone thought they were going to be the 
big winner in the Internet bonanza) because they offered two crucial 
Internet technologies, the best browser in existence and (at that 
time) the best web server (which was not free, as the browser was -- 
in order to the get people to use the Internet on the theory that 
people would then want to buy Netscape's web server software). The 
decision at the end of the 90s to chuck the browser codebase and 
start over led to the company's demise as an independent entity. It 
was purchased by AOL, and at this point does not really exist as an 
AOL division, though AOL has continued to keep a few programmers 
around to take the Mozilla codebase (which is no longer controlled by 
and "Netscape") and package it into a browser that is branded as 
being "Netscape Navigator." But it's really just a "skin" running on 
the Mozilla web browsers (just as Firefox is, though to a lesser 
extent than Netscape is).

>  Wouldn't it be a good business plan to 
> continue supporting a program based on ancient code while at the same 
> time developing a new program with new code and none of the old 
> problems, designed to replace the older program, and able to open ALL 
> files from the old program, regardless of version?

Did you read Joel's article? He gave the answer: if you've got 
crufty, ugly code that's preventing you from adding new features, you 
do what's called "refactoring." What that means is that you take the 
original code and don't change any functionality or behavior, but 
what you do is rewrite it to get rid of all the ugliness. That means 
revising the way it's organized and how it performs certain 
operations, but since you're always doing it tiny bit by tiny bit, 
and not changing any functionality, you always have a codebase that 
can be used to produce a shipping product.

Joel said there's nothing wrong with the refactoring approach. The 
result of a complete refactoring is that you end up with a codebase 
that includes all the legacy bits but that is easier to manage. This 
is what I suggested MakeMusic might very well be doing with Finale in 
the background.

But what Netscape did was start from a clean slate and re-architect 
the software from the ground up.

Consider an analogy:

You live in a house that has a stairway that is too narrow, and leans 
at an angle, but if you're careful, you can climb it easily. The 
floors in half the rooms lean at an angle, but you've built your 
furniture so that it sits properly on top of the tilting floors. The 
problem is that you can't rearrange the furniture the way you'd like 
because the furniture legs are cut to sit properly only in one 
orientation to the tilt of the floor.

Now, y

Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[David W. Fenton]

On 1 Nov 2007 at 4:44, dhbailey wrote:

> It's quite possible to be successful at it -- it costs money, certainly, 
> but it's something auto makers do all the time.  They keep on bringing 
> out annual "upgrades" to existing models until a whole new model is 
> finally ready to present to the public, then they present the new model 
> and decide either to make it an addition to their offerings or to remove 
> an existing model which isn't doing very well and put this new model 
> line in its place.

Well, as a software developer, I have to say that it just doesn't 
work the same way.

And, I think you are overrating the degree to which any new 
automobile model is completely new -- it's not. The changes are 
usually incremental, based on engineering practices that have been in 
place for a very long time. Eventually, after 10 years of incremental 
changes, you might have an automobile that no longer retains any 
design characteristics that were present 10 years before, but it 
never happens the way you describe it.

And there are good reasons for that and those reasons are not so very 
different from software.

When automakers *really* want to launch completely new models, they 
create a completely new brand, such as GM did with Saturn.

All that said, I really do understand Jari's point. I've said for 
years that the data storage format is the single largest factor 
holding back the evolution of Finale. It was the same way with 
WordPerfect (whose data format was sequential instead of pointer-
based) -- the data format can greatly limit the capabilities of the 
program running on top of it. What Jari is calling for (as I 
understand it) is a completely different approach to the storage of 
the music data such that the inputting of the notation is free of the 
limitations that come from that data model. I don't see it happening 
any time soon, certainly not by MakeMusic or Sibelius, and I don't 
know who would do it otherwise.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Steve Currington]

Ref below for inserted comments

-Original Message-
From: Eric Dannewitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:30 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions



>>John Howell wrote:
>> Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score.
>>
>> I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, 
>> perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David 
>> explained.  I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had 
>> to learn it yet.
> Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to
create a new staff and then 
> copy all the stuff over? You can't just click the ?
> staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me.

Actually it is quite simple.  And no you don't have to go through any
Gymnastics etc.

Ref the below entry from the Sib v5.x help file.

Instrument changes
Sibelius makes it easy to change instruments at any point along a staff
using Create > Other >
Instrument Change. First consider whether you want the instrument change
to take effect up
until the end of the score (or up to an existing instrument change later
in the score), or only temporarily
for a specific passage.

* To change instrument temporarily, first select the passage for which
you want the instrument
change to take effect; Sibelius will automatically revert to the
original instrument at the end of
the selection.

* To change instrument permanently, select a single note after which you
want the instrument
change to take effect, or make no selection (in which case you can click
to place the instrument
change in a moment).

* Once you have selected where you want the instrument change to begin,
and optionally where
you want it to end, choose Create > Other > Instrument Change. The
dialog shown below
appears.

 

* Choose the instrument you want to change to from the list. The two
extra options you can set
are as follows:

* If Add clef (if necessary) is switched on, Sibelius will create a clef
change at the point where
the instrument change occurs, if the clef of the new instrument is
different to that of the original
instrument

* If Announce at last note of previous instrument is switched on,
Sibelius will create a
warning, "To [instrument]", at the start of the rests preceding the
change.

 Now click OK. If you didn't have a selection before you opened the
dialog, your mouse pointer
will now be blue, and you can click in the score to place your
instrument change; otherwise,
Sibelius automatically creates the instrument change (or changes) at the
selection.

Sibelius always does the following for you when you create an instrument
change:
* Changes the playback sound of the staff as appropriate
* Changes the instrument name on subsequent systems (which you can edit
if you wish). If you
don't want the instrument name to change, choose House Style > Engraving
Rules (shortcut
Ctrl+Shift+E or xXE), go to the Instruments page, and switch on Don't
change instrument
names at start of system after instrument changes.
* Writes the name of the new instrument above the top of the staff where
it starts playing (you
can edit this if you wish)
* Changes the transposition of the staff, if appropriate (e.g. if
switching from a Bb to A clarinet),
showing an appropriate change of key signature if Notes > Transposing
Score is switched on
* Changes the staff type, if appropriate (e.g. number of staff lines,
tab or normal notation, etc.).

So with just a few mouse clicks or shortcuts it has happened..
What is difficult about that?

I have done it and it is a breeze  What's more.. it works  


 
 
Steve Currington


Composition/Musicology Student
New Zealand School of Music
Wellington, New Zealand
 
email: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  

 


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[John Howell]

At 7:59 AM +0100 11/1/07, Jari Williamsson wrote:

David W. Fenton wrote:
Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire codebase 
and started from scratch.


Which is kind of my point. A rewrite, using mainly the same kind of 
thinking, using mainly the same kind of tools, will not solve 
anything.


I think I understand both sides here, but they leave me confused. 
Partly because I've used Netscape exclusively since I first gained 
access to the internet, back in the early '90s, and have never wanted 
or needed anything else.  Yes, it's now called Navigator, and it's 
based (apparently) on Mozilla or Firefox or whatever, which is 
supposed to be a big improvement, and yes, I'm learning to use Tabs, 
but it still gives me the functionality I need.


David's reasoning seems to be that Netscape lost money during a 
fallow period, but that didn't affect me and it apparently didn't 
cause the company to fail.  Wouldn't it be a good business plan to 
continue supporting a program based on ancient code while at the same 
time developing a new program with new code and none of the old 
problems, designed to replace the older program, and able to open ALL 
files from the old program, regardless of version?


But hey, man, I'm just in the band!

John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Jari Williamsson]

David W. Fenton wrote:
Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire 
codebase and started from scratch. 


Which is kind of my point. A rewrite, using mainly the same kind of 
thinking, using mainly the same kind of tools, will not solve anything.



Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[dhbailey]

John's right -- there are lots of shortcuts.

The best thing I can suggest to new Sibelius users is to learn to use 
the escape key -- hit it whenever you're in doubt (yes, you can still 
have things selected that you're not viewing onscreen at the moment), 
and sometimes hitting it twice for insurance is wise.  Not difficult, 
just not something that Finale users have had to think about.


One big paradigm shift when moving from Finale to Sibelius is that 
everything is selectable, there being no "tools" the way that Finale has 
them, which you have to choose before being able to select specific 
things.  Yes, I know that Fin2k8 has the new selection tool but even 
that's a tool and if you're in one of the other tools, you have to exit 
it by selecting the Selection Tool.  And then once you select something 
with the Selection Tool you are placed into the appropriate tool for 
that item, and have to consciously exit that tool to work on something 
else, so you're constantly having to think in terms of "tools" while 
using Finale.


With Sibelius, you only need to think of what you want to do next. 
Instead of tools there are shortcuts or menu selections to remember or 
navigate but once you place something, you can point at anything else 
and work with it without having to change to a selection tool.


So anything which is selected will be affected by what you do, and if 
anything is selected, the right-click menu will only show what is 
applicable for that item (or those items -- Sibelius allows ctrl-click 
so that you can select non-contiguous items to work on.)


David H. Bailey



John Howell wrote:

At 4:11 PM -0700 10/31/07, Eric Dannewitz wrote:
Right clicking does not bring up any context menu that has OTHER in 
it. I get Cut, Copy, Paste, Delete, Capture Idea, Voice, Hide/Show, 
Color and Apply Color...


It's just something you have to learn.  What happened is that you had 
something selected, so you got that short menu of things you might want 
to do to the thing you had selected.  Click on a blank space on the page 
(or hit escape a few times) to deselect anything that's selected, then 
right click on a blank part of the page.  What you then get IS the 
Create menu.  It's a shortcut; there are LOTS of shortcuts, and I've 
only learned a few at this point, but I remember the ones I use.


Just part of the learning curve.

John



However, in the menu, there is Other buried under Create..

Sibelius 5.1...frustrating..

Richard Smith wrote:

Eric this may be what you want.

  1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At
 the bottom of the menu is "other". Open that up.
  2. Select "change instrument"
  3. Pick an instrument from the list.
  4. Click the now blue (="loaded") arrow where you want to change the
 instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef
 change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to
 change to the instrument.
  5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the
 left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the
 staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt
 he beginning.

I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do 
with familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are 
so many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach 
to fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's 
Speedy Entry restrictive but many of  the workers on this list would 
certainly disagree. These two are just "differently abled" and the 
versatility is good for us all.


Richard Smith
http://www.rgsmithmusic.com


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale






--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 1 Nov 2007 at 2:22, Kurt Gnos wrote:


Fix its old bugs, but better reprogram it from scratch, using new
technologies


This is a really terrible suggestion. If you think the bugs in Finale 
are bad now, wait 'til you see the new programmed-from-scratch 
Finale. Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire 
codebase and started from scratch. The result was that for 5 years, 
there was no new Netscape browser, and the world moved on and 
Netscape lost its market share. Joel Spolsky explains why it's bad to 
chuck an existing codebase and start from scratch:


  http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html

Quote:

 Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There
 never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, 
was

 released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long
 time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by,
 helplessly, as their market share plummeted. 


 It's a bit smarmy of me to criticize them for waiting so long
 between releases. They didn't do it on purpose, now, did they? 


 Well, yes. They did. They did it by making the single worst
 strategic mistake that any software company can make: 

 They decided to rewrite the code from scratch. 


I didn't read the article but I'm sure the part you quoted makes the 
salient point, but it seems to miss one variation to that scenario.  One 
need not abandon continued support and incremental progress on the 
existing codebase while doing a total rewrite in the background.  It is 
possible to hire extra developers to work on the new codebase while 
leaving some of the existing developers to issue interim patches to the 
existing product so that the public doesn't need to know that a total 
rewrite is going on behind the scenes.  Then when the newly rewritten 
code is ready for prime time, they just have to announce a new version, 
no delay, no absence from the public's mind.


It's quite possible to be successful at it -- it costs money, certainly, 
but it's something auto makers do all the time.  They keep on bringing 
out annual "upgrades" to existing models until a whole new model is 
finally ready to present to the public, then they present the new model 
and decide either to make it an addition to their offerings or to remove 
an existing model which isn't doing very well and put this new model 
line in its place.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Richard Smith]

It sounds like your cursor was resting on some musical element when you 
right clicked. You got the menu that opens when you are pointing to a 
specific element. It's much shorter.


To get the longer list of options, you have to point to a blank space on 
the page. Then there is a context menu with "other" at the bottom of the 
list. When you open the other item you will find "Instrument change".


The same menu is also in the "create" drop down menu on the menu bar at 
the top of the page. I just right click because it's more convenient. 
This menu, either as a context or a drop down from the menu bar, has 
most of the controls you normally need. You just learn to look there first.


Hope that helps.

Richard Smith
http://www.rgsmithmusic.com



Eric Dannewitz wrote:
Right clicking does not bring up any context menu that has OTHER in 
it. I get Cut, Copy, Paste, Delete, Capture Idea, Voice, Hide/Show, 
Color and Apply Color...


However, in the menu, there is Other buried under Create..

Sibelius 5.1...frustrating..

Richard Smith wrote:

Eric this may be what you want.

  1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At
 the bottom of the menu is "other". Open that up.
  2. Select "change instrument"
  3. Pick an instrument from the list.
  4. Click the now blue (="loaded") arrow where you want to change the
 instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef
 change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to
 change to the instrument.
  5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the
 left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the
 staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt
 he beginning.

I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do 
with familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are 
so many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach 
to fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's 
Speedy Entry restrictive but many of  the workers on this list would 
certainly disagree. These two are just "differently abled" and the 
versatility is good for us all.


Richard Smith
http://www.rgsmithmusic.com


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[David W. Fenton]

On 1 Nov 2007 at 2:22, Kurt Gnos wrote:

> Fix its old bugs, but better reprogram it from scratch, using new
> technologies

This is a really terrible suggestion. If you think the bugs in Finale 
are bad now, wait 'til you see the new programmed-from-scratch 
Finale. Consider the case of Netscape, which chucked its entire 
codebase and started from scratch. The result was that for 5 years, 
there was no new Netscape browser, and the world moved on and 
Netscape lost its market share. Joel Spolsky explains why it's bad to 
chuck an existing codebase and start from scratch:

  http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html

Quote:

 Netscape 6.0 is finally going into its first public beta. There
 never was a version 5.0. The last major release, version 4.0, 
was
 released almost three years ago. Three years is an awfully long
 time in the Internet world. During this time, Netscape sat by,
 helplessly, as their market share plummeted. 

 It's a bit smarmy of me to criticize them for waiting so long
 between releases. They didn't do it on purpose, now, did they? 

 Well, yes. They did. They did it by making the single worst
 strategic mistake that any software company can make: 

 They decided to rewrite the code from scratch. 

It was originally posted April 6, 2000. And y'all know how many more 
years it took after that before the Mozilla foundation produced a 
decent browser.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[John Howell]

At 4:11 PM -0700 10/31/07, Eric Dannewitz wrote:
Right clicking does not bring up any context menu that has OTHER in 
it. I get Cut, Copy, Paste, Delete, Capture Idea, Voice, Hide/Show, 
Color and Apply Color...


It's just something you have to learn.  What happened is that you had 
something selected, so you got that short menu of things you might 
want to do to the thing you had selected.  Click on a blank space on 
the page (or hit escape a few times) to deselect anything that's 
selected, then right click on a blank part of the page.  What you 
then get IS the Create menu.  It's a shortcut; there are LOTS of 
shortcuts, and I've only learned a few at this point, but I remember 
the ones I use.


Just part of the learning curve.

John



However, in the menu, there is Other buried under Create..

Sibelius 5.1...frustrating..

Richard Smith wrote:

Eric this may be what you want.

  1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At
 the bottom of the menu is "other". Open that up.
  2. Select "change instrument"
  3. Pick an instrument from the list.
  4. Click the now blue (="loaded") arrow where you want to change the
 instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef
 change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to
 change to the instrument.
  5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the
 left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the
 staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt
 he beginning.

I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do 
with familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There 
are so many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my 
approach to fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find 
Finale's Speedy Entry restrictive but many of  the workers on this 
list would certainly disagree. These two are just "differently 
abled" and the versatility is good for us all.


Richard Smith
http://www.rgsmithmusic.com


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale



--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Eric Dannewitz]

Right clicking does not bring up any context menu that has OTHER in it. 
I get Cut, Copy, Paste, Delete, Capture Idea, Voice, Hide/Show, Color 
and Apply Color...


However, in the menu, there is Other buried under Create..

Sibelius 5.1...frustrating..

Richard Smith wrote:

Eric this may be what you want.

  1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At
 the bottom of the menu is "other". Open that up.
  2. Select "change instrument"
  3. Pick an instrument from the list.
  4. Click the now blue (="loaded") arrow where you want to change the
 instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef
 change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to
 change to the instrument.
  5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the
 left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the
 staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt
 he beginning.

I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do with 
familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are so 
many ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach to 
fit the particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's Speedy 
Entry restrictive but many of  the workers on this list would 
certainly disagree. These two are just "differently abled" and the 
versatility is good for us all.


Richard Smith
http://www.rgsmithmusic.com


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

AW: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Kurt Gnos]

Jari,

when I read your message, I didn't agree. I doubt whether music notation, a
rather complex and not always logical process, can be handled in a simple
way.

But then I think I have been using Finale for almost 20 years. Even if they
were progresses, and big ones, you are right - the "core" of the program is
20 years old. I remember I did a song book for the church I was working for.
Finale 3 had no easy way to do slurs, you had to fine-tune everyone. 3.5
came out and hat "automatic" slurs - they were much better. So I deleted
every slur in about 300 pages and used the new ones...

And so on. I have used Finale so long I can do everything I want, but as in,
e. g. quark xpress, I do it the hard way. I have learned to use quite exotic
work-arounds to get to the goal. And I am tired of it. 

Postscript (I have bought postscript printers for 20 years because of
Finale) worked on and off. After working fine for some years, it has not
been working fine for 10 years or so, Coda blaming Windows, but hell, why do
other programs like Sibelius work fine?

Sibelius is certainly newer, fresher, but it has the same problem as Finale.
It has grown over the years, adding features, adding features we need, and
certainly adding featers I don't need, but the interface - is not
up-to-date.

So the best thing is if one of the big music-notation-firms that hopefully
have learned of their draw-backs would create a new, easy-to-use notation
software that does everything the way we want and also offers the freedom to
do everything.

What I like more in Sibelius (compared to Finale) after just a few hours is
- in Finale, I enter music, and then spend most of my time doing layout
things - in Siblius, I don't have to spend so much time doing layout work,
because it's looking fine, by default.

So if Finale doesn't want to lose more clients, this should be its first
priority - we enter the notes and stuff, and Finale does the layout in a
satisfying way... We should not need to do both...

Fix its old bugs, but better reprogram it from scratch, using new
technologies, so finally (!) I agree with you, Jari, we need a new
program...


Kurt

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
> Auftrag von Jari Williamsson
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2007 19:45
> An: finale@shsu.edu
> Betreff: Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
> 
> John Howell wrote:
> 
> > All notation is complex.
> 
> In this case, I think the complete opposite way. The problem as I see
> it
> is that all music software of today are using technology from 30-40
> years ago. If a music program was developed today, using the technology
> invented during the last 5-10 years, a music notation program could
> handle notation in an extremely simple way.
> 
> And it could also be a creative environment, which can't be said of any
> music notation product found today... ;-)
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Jari Williamsson
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Richard Smith]

Eric this may be what you want.

  1. Right click on a blank part of the page for the context menu. At
 the bottom of the menu is "other". Open that up.
  2. Select "change instrument"
  3. Pick an instrument from the list.
  4. Click the now blue (="loaded") arrow where you want to change the
 instrument. You will get a transposition and key and/or clef
 change as needed as well as a text instruction to the performer to
 change to the instrument.
  5. If you want to change the stave for the entire score, click in the
 left margin just to the left of the staff. It will change the
 staff and look as if the new instrument had been the choice fromt
 he beginning.

I think that having multiple ways of doing things has a lot to do with 
familiarity. I really like Sibelius' step time entry. There are so many 
ways to enter music that I am constantly changing my approach to fit the 
particular circumstance. Conversely, I find Finale's Speedy Entry 
restrictive but many of  the workers on this list would certainly 
disagree. These two are just "differently abled" and the versatility is 
good for us all.


Richard Smith
http://www.rgsmithmusic.com


Eric Dannewitz wrote:



John Howell wrote:

Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score.

I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, 
perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David 
explained.  I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had 
to learn it yet.
Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to 
create a new staff and then copy all the stuff over? You can't just 
click the staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me.


All notation is complex.  (Don't forget that it was originally 
developed by monks using feathers!!!)  But any program has to deal 
with those complexities.  Some do it better than others, but I don't 
EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with 
exactly the same way of approaching things.
Well, ideally, they should have multiple ways of doing it. One path is 
not always the best path. That is one thing that is great about Finale 
is that it generally has a number of ways to do what you want it to do.

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[dhbailey]

Eric Dannewitz wrote:



John Howell wrote:

Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score.

I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, 
perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David 
explained.  I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had 
to learn it yet.
Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to 
create a new staff and then copy all the stuff over? You can't just 
click the staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me.




You don't have to do it that way -- that's just one way you can do it.

You can edit the attributes for the existing staff.

All notation is complex.  (Don't forget that it was originally 
developed by monks using feathers!!!)  But any program has to deal 
with those complexities.  Some do it better than others, but I don't 
EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with 
exactly the same way of approaching things.
Well, ideally, they should have multiple ways of doing it. One path is 
not always the best path. That is one thing that is great about Finale 
is that it generally has a number of ways to do what you want it to do.


The same is true for Sibelius.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Eric Dannewitz]

John Howell wrote:

Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score.

I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, 
perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David 
explained.  I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had 
to learn it yet.
Either way. Seems like you can't do it easily in Sibelius. You have to 
create a new staff and then copy all the stuff over? You can't just 
click the staff and change it? Seems non-intuitive to me.


All notation is complex.  (Don't forget that it was originally 
developed by monks using feathers!!!)  But any program has to deal 
with those complexities.  Some do it better than others, but I don't 
EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with 
exactly the same way of approaching things.
Well, ideally, they should have multiple ways of doing it. One path is 
not always the best path. That is one thing that is great about Finale 
is that it generally has a number of ways to do what you want it to do.

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Jari Williamsson]

John Howell wrote:


All notation is complex.


In this case, I think the complete opposite way. The problem as I see it 
is that all music software of today are using technology from 30-40 
years ago. If a music program was developed today, using the technology 
invented during the last 5-10 years, a music notation program could 
handle notation in an extremely simple way.


And it could also be a creative environment, which can't be said of any 
music notation product found today... ;-)



Best regards,

Jari Williamsson
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[John Howell]

At 10:30 PM -0800 10/30/07, Eric Dannewitz wrote:
I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting 
articulations on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that 
out.


I'll second everything David Bailey said, but add this.  Sibelius 
gives you choices, and one of those choices is to add articulations 
as you enter notes.  It's done with the keypad, and of course depends 
on how facile you are using the keypad, but I'm gradually training 
myself to do it that way so I won't have to go back to add them, and 
my speed is gradually increasing.  You can also reprogram the keypad, 
according to some users, but that's something I probably won't 
investigate until I'm comfortable with the default arrangement.



Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score.


I assume that you mean same staff, change to a different instrument, 
perhaps change clef or transposition, rather than the scenario David 
explained.  I know it can be done, but not how because I haven't had 
to learn it yet.


All notation is complex.  (Don't forget that it was originally 
developed by monks using feathers!!!)  But any program has to deal 
with those complexities.  Some do it better than others, but I don't 
EVER expect any programmer or team of programmers to come up with 
exactly the same way of approaching things.




So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going 
back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me


Cool.  No problem.  I used Mosaic long after it stopped being 
supported because I was comfortable with it.  Now it no longer runs 
on OS X.  I'd probably still be using it if I could, but then I'm Mr. 
Conservative when it comes to jumping into new programs when I have 
an older one that does what I need it to do.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Richard Smith]

You can select the articulation from the keypad at the same time as the 
rhythm. But I find that awkward unless you just need a few isolated 
articulations. For me, articulation is most seamlessly applied to entire 
regions (select any number of measures) rather than note by note. I also 
stop entering notes from scratch and begin a copy, paste, and edit 
routine as soon as possible. If you copy a passage that's already 
articulated, attaching articulations becomes moot.


This is another case of Sib and Finale being "differently abled". You 
can get to the same result but the path may be much different and some 
may prefer Finale's while others prefer Sibelius'.


Richard Smith
http://rgsmithmusic.com


Eric Dannewitz wrote:
I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting 
articulations on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that 
out. Nor if you decide you want to change an instrument on a score.


So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going 
back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me


John Howell wrote:

At 10:25 PM +0100 10/30/07, Kurt Gnos wrote:

David, John,

thanks for the quick and competent answers.

Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I 
am glad
you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must 
say,
generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than 
Finale,
and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. 
So I

guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later...


Kurt:  David is competent, I'm still very much learning.  But you 
might want to subscribe to the SibList at 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  It's much like this list, not an 
"official" Sibelius list, with the crucial difference that a Senior 
Product Manager for Sibelius, Daniel Spreadbury, monitors the list 
and answers questions quickly and honestly.


John




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale






___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[dhbailey]

Eric Dannewitz wrote:
I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting articulations 
on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that out. Nor if you 
decide you want to change an instrument on a score.


So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going 
back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me




That's fine -- in Finale, using Speedy Entry, I've always entered the 
notes first and then the articulations, so that wasn't a stopper for me.


Changing an instrument in the score, while keeping all the music can be 
done several ways -- from the Mixer window or from the Create - 
Instrument dialog where you add a new staff, then select all the music 
in the old instrument staff and then paste it into the new staff then 
delete the old staff.


But it took me three versions of Sibelius before I finally felt 
comfortable working in it.  I wouldn't expect others to keep at it if 
they don't wish to.


If Finale works fine for you and you don't run into the bugs that have 
amassed in recent versions, then you should keep on working in Finale.


I find that when I start Finale2k8 it doesn't feel the same and I don't 
like the new feel, but when I fire up Fin2k7 or earlier (I've got them 
all going back to 2004 on my computer still) I feel right at home.


And when I start Sib5 (now 5.1) I feel right at home, too.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Eric Dannewitz]

I, so far, find Sibelius extremely backwards. Like putting articulations 
on notes after I enter them. Still can't figure that out. Nor if you 
decide you want to change an instrument on a score.


So far, I've tried to do two trios with Sibelius, but ended up going 
back to Finale cause it was just not working very well for me


John Howell wrote:

At 10:25 PM +0100 10/30/07, Kurt Gnos wrote:

David, John,

thanks for the quick and competent answers.

Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I am 
glad

you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must say,
generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than 
Finale,
and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. 
So I

guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later...


Kurt:  David is competent, I'm still very much learning.  But you 
might want to subscribe to the SibList at 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  It's much like this list, not an 
"official" Sibelius list, with the crucial difference that a Senior 
Product Manager for Sibelius, Daniel Spreadbury, monitors the list and 
answers questions quickly and honestly.


John




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[John Howell]

At 10:25 PM +0100 10/30/07, Kurt Gnos wrote:

David, John,

thanks for the quick and competent answers.

Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I am glad
you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must say,
generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than Finale,
and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. So I
guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later...


Kurt:  David is competent, I'm still very much learning.  But you 
might want to subscribe to the SibList at 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  It's much like this list, not an 
"official" Sibelius list, with the crucial difference that a Senior 
Product Manager for Sibelius, Daniel Spreadbury, monitors the list 
and answers questions quickly and honestly.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Kurt Gnos]

David, John,

thanks for the quick and competent answers.

Well, apart from the crashes, I get a quite good impression. And I am glad
you two are here to answer all my future Sibelius questions. I must say,
generally the user interface it quite nice and much more modern than Finale,
and the output is flawless, which much less fiddling than in Finale. So I
guess I am a candidate to switch, sooner or later...

Kurt

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[John Howell]

At 5:27 PM -0400 10/29/07, dhbailey wrote:

Kurt Gnos wrote:


I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics a
little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've checked
all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not find a way
to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a way to do
it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole lyrics
line?


highlight the entire staff, then under Edit menu select FILTER and 
then select Lyrics.  Then only the lyrics are selected and using up 
or down arrow (or clicking and dragging) will move all the lyrics.


I must admit that I need a "Filters for Dummies," since I haven't 
really figured them out yet.  But yes, there is an easier way.  (If 
you are on Sib 5, and I guess you are, this may be different.  I'm 
still on Sib 4, and everything goes by system and page and there's no 
Galley View.)


Select the first syllable in a line of lyrics.  Then type Apple-Shift 
+ A and it selects all the lyrics on that system.  Then just use the 
up and down arrows to move them.  Different from both Finale and 
Mosaic, but easy once you get the hang of it.  You can use the same 
approach to copy that line of lyrics to another voice part:  select 
the line of lyrics, Copy, select the first note of the next voice 
part, Paste.


This is on Mac, of course, but usually the Windows commands are 
virtually the same.


What's really nice (compared with Mosaic) is that when you hit the 
space bar it moves to the next actual note, and you don't have to 
space through all the rests.  I find the lyrics implementation as 
close to intuitive as anything in the program.


John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[John Howell]

At 11:44 PM +0100 10/29/07, Kurt Gnos wrote:


Is there a way to select an entire staff except highlighting the first
measure, go to the last page and shift-clicking the last measure? I guess
there is... But there is no clicking to the left of the staff as in Finale,
so I didn't find out...;-)


Yes.  Click on a measure and it selects that measure.  Double click 
and it selects that staff on that whole system.  Triple click and it 
selects that staff from beginning to end.


This is Sib 4 on Mac.

John


--
John R. Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[dhbailey]

Kurt Gnos wrote:

I tried that and it didn't work. I guess this is only for future entries - I
also did not find any "apply" button or something like this...



Just make sure you exit that dialog properly after editing any of the 
text styles -- be sure to click any/all OK buttons and don't get out of 
the Edit Lyrics dialog and then click the X to close the Edit Text 
Styles dialog, be sure to click OK to get out of that dialog.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[dhbailey]

Kurt Gnos wrote:

David,

thanks, that did it.

Is there a way to select an entire staff except highlighting the first
measure, go to the last page and shift-clicking the last measure? I guess
there is... But there is no clicking to the left of the staff as in Finale,
so I didn't find out...;-)



Click selects one measure, double-click selects that staff for that 
system, triple-click selects that staff for the entire score.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Kurt Gnos]

I tried that and it didn't work. I guess this is only for future entries - I
also did not find any "apply" button or something like this...

Kurt

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
> Auftrag von Jeff Tanner
> Gesendet: Montag, 29. Oktober 2007 23:09
> An: finale@shsu.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
> 
> You can also just edit the Lyrics Text Style and it will change them
> all and make it that position as the default.
> 
> 
> On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:27 PM, dhbailey wrote:
> 
> > Kurt Gnos wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >> today I gave Sibelius my second try.
> >> I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B
> >> accompaniment,
> >> to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on.
> >> Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most
> >> things
> >> working.
> >> I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius
> >> crashed
> >> once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time
> >> worked
> >> quite fine. Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my
> >> SATB voices would not
> >> play back. Restarting fixed it.
> >> I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the
> >> lyrics a
> >> little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've
> >> checked
> >> all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not
> >> find a way
> >> to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a
> >> way to do
> >> it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole
> >> lyrics
> >> line?
> >
> > highlight the entire staff, then under Edit menu select FILTER and
> > then select Lyrics.  Then only the lyrics are selected and using up
> > or down arrow (or clicking and dragging) will move all the lyrics.
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> > --
> > David H. Bailey
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Kurt Gnos]

David,

thanks, that did it.

Is there a way to select an entire staff except highlighting the first
measure, go to the last page and shift-clicking the last measure? I guess
there is... But there is no clicking to the left of the staff as in Finale,
so I didn't find out...;-)

Kurt

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
> Auftrag von dhbailey
> Gesendet: Montag, 29. Oktober 2007 22:27
> An: finale@shsu.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
> 
> Kurt Gnos wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > today I gave Sibelius my second try.
> >
> > I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B
> accompaniment,
> > to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on.
> >
> > Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most
> things
> > working.
> >
> > I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius
> crashed
> > once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time
> worked
> > quite fine.
> >
> > Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my SATB voices
> would not
> > play back. Restarting fixed it.
> >
> > I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics
> a
> > little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've
> checked
> > all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not
> find a way
> > to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a
> way to do
> > it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole
> lyrics
> > line?
> 
> highlight the entire staff, then under Edit menu select FILTER and then
> select Lyrics.  Then only the lyrics are selected and using up or down
> arrow (or clicking and dragging) will move all the lyrics.
> 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> --
> David H. Bailey
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Jeff Tanner]

You can also just edit the Lyrics Text Style and it will change them  
all and make it that position as the default.



On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:27 PM, dhbailey wrote:


Kurt Gnos wrote:

Hi,
today I gave Sibelius my second try.
I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B  
accompaniment,

to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on.
Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most  
things

working.
I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius  
crashed
once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time  
worked
quite fine. Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my  
SATB voices would not

play back. Restarting fixed it.
I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the  
lyrics a
little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've  
checked
all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not  
find a way
to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a  
way to do
it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole  
lyrics

line?


highlight the entire staff, then under Edit menu select FILTER and  
then select Lyrics.  Then only the lyrics are selected and using up  
or down arrow (or clicking and dragging) will move all the lyrics.



[snip]


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[music]

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[dhbailey]

Kurt Gnos wrote:

Hi,

today I gave Sibelius my second try.

I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B accompaniment,
to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on.

Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most things
working.

I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius crashed
once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time worked
quite fine. 


Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my SATB voices would not
play back. Restarting fixed it.

I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics a
little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've checked
all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not find a way
to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a way to do
it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole lyrics
line?


highlight the entire staff, then under Edit menu select FILTER and then 
select Lyrics.  Then only the lyrics are selected and using up or down 
arrow (or clicking and dragging) will move all the lyrics.



[snip]


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Third impressions

[Kurt Gnos]

Hi,

another one for the Sibelius users...

I added a text block on the second page containing additional verses.

I wrote 1. - TAB - first verse
And aligned everything.

Up to the 5th verse.

But the text printed as

1. bla bla bla
bla bla bla.

What I wanted is:

1.  bla bla bla
Bla bla bla
Bla bla bla...

I couldn't get this working.

Kurt

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
> Auftrag von Kurt Gnos
> Gesendet: Montag, 29. Oktober 2007 21:07
> An: finale@shsu.edu
> Betreff: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions
> 
> Hi,
> 
> today I gave Sibelius my second try.
> 
> I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B
> accompaniment,
> to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on.
> 
> Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most
> things
> working.
> 
> I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius
> crashed
> once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time worked
> quite fine.
> 
> Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my SATB voices
> would not
> play back. Restarting fixed it.
> 
> I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics a
> little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've
> checked
> all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not find
> a way
> to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a way
> to do
> it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole
> lyrics
> line?
> 
> I also found out Sibelius dreadfully misses Finale's arrow tool. It's a
> pain
> to select notes or measures when drop down menus "hide" it. I found no
> simple way to enter rests other than break bars into rests and go right
> with
> the arrow keys.
> 
> I might be doing many things wrong, but I wanted to find things out the
> intuitive way. Some things worked out fine, some things did not.
> 
> I miss Finale's options to change everything, but hey, I know where to
> look,
> after almost twenty years.
> 
> Wondering if some Sibelius user can solve my lyrics problem. And how
> can I
> "select" one voice other than right-clicking the first bar and than the
> last
> bar. It's so easy in Finale...
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Kurt
> 
> > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
> > Auftrag von Kurt Gnos
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 22:37
> > An: finale@shsu.edu
> > Betreff: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - First experiences
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > after all these discussions and Finale seeming to coming to an end, I
> > gave
> > Sibelius 5 a try, at a friend's computer.
> >
> > First impression - nice interface, more modern than finale.
> >
> > Second impression - less control - for example, when I play back, I
> > cannot
> > easily control what Sibelius will show me - it tries to show me what
> > happens
> > - but - I can change the resolution, e. g. 75%, during playback,
> which
> > is
> > great.
> >
> > What would I do first - I listened to some demo songs - The sound
> great
> > with
> > the new samples Siblius comes with, and Sibelius certainly does a
> nice
> > playback.
> > BUT, and this is a big but (no pun intended) - during the first hour
> > Sibelius crashed three times just playing demo songs and videos.
> Finale
> > hasn't crashed on me for years.
> >
> > I started entering a new piece of music, but I will keep you informed
> > when
> > I've tried a bit more. So there are ups and downs, but if the
> crashing
> > goes
> > on I'm sure to stay with Finale, even if it seems a bit out-of-
> > fashion...
> >
> > Kurt
> >
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Sibelius 5 - Second impressions

[Kurt Gnos]

Hi,

today I gave Sibelius my second try.

I entered and arranged a simple melody (S/A in canon) and T/B accompaniment,
to check out copying, pasting, lyrics and so on.

Many things work quite differently than in Finale, but I got most things
working.

I could enter notes, copy and paste things, add lyrics. Sibelius crashed
once (something about a C-Library), but for the rest of the time worked
quite fine. 

Playback: I had to restart two times because one of my SATB voices would not
play back. Restarting fixed it.

I now have entered the music and lyrics. I wanted to shift the lyrics a
little lower because they are too near to the staff symstem. I've checked
all the menus and fiddled around for half an hour but I could not find a way
to adjust the verse 1 baseline. I am quite certain there must be a way to do
it, but where? I can adjust one syllable no problem, but the whole lyrics
line?

I also found out Sibelius dreadfully misses Finale's arrow tool. It's a pain
to select notes or measures when drop down menus "hide" it. I found no
simple way to enter rests other than break bars into rests and go right with
the arrow keys. 

I might be doing many things wrong, but I wanted to find things out the
intuitive way. Some things worked out fine, some things did not.

I miss Finale's options to change everything, but hey, I know where to look,
after almost twenty years.

Wondering if some Sibelius user can solve my lyrics problem. And how can I
"select" one voice other than right-clicking the first bar and than the last
bar. It's so easy in Finale...

Cheers

Kurt

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
> Auftrag von Kurt Gnos
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Oktober 2007 22:37
> An: finale@shsu.edu
> Betreff: [Finale] Sibelius 5 - First experiences
> 
> Hi,
> 
> after all these discussions and Finale seeming to coming to an end, I
> gave
> Sibelius 5 a try, at a friend's computer.
> 
> First impression - nice interface, more modern than finale.
> 
> Second impression - less control - for example, when I play back, I
> cannot
> easily control what Sibelius will show me - it tries to show me what
> happens
> - but - I can change the resolution, e. g. 75%, during playback, which
> is
> great.
> 
> What would I do first - I listened to some demo songs - The sound great
> with
> the new samples Siblius comes with, and Sibelius certainly does a nice
> playback.
> BUT, and this is a big but (no pun intended) - during the first hour
> Sibelius crashed three times just playing demo songs and videos. Finale
> hasn't crashed on me for years.
> 
> I started entering a new piece of music, but I will keep you informed
> when
> I've tried a bit more. So there are ups and downs, but if the crashing
> goes
> on I'm sure to stay with Finale, even if it seems a bit out-of-
> fashion...
> 
> Kurt
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Sibelius 5 - First experiences

[Kurt Gnos]

Hi,

after all these discussions and Finale seeming to coming to an end, I gave
Sibelius 5 a try, at a friend's computer.

First impression - nice interface, more modern than finale.

Second impression - less control - for example, when I play back, I cannot
easily control what Sibelius will show me - it tries to show me what happens
- but - I can change the resolution, e. g. 75%, during playback, which is
great.

What would I do first - I listened to some demo songs - The sound great with
the new samples Siblius comes with, and Sibelius certainly does a nice
playback. 
BUT, and this is a big but (no pun intended) - during the first hour
Sibelius crashed three times just playing demo songs and videos. Finale
hasn't crashed on me for years.

I started entering a new piece of music, but I will keep you informed when
I've tried a bit more. So there are ups and downs, but if the crashing goes
on I'm sure to stay with Finale, even if it seems a bit out-of-fashion...

Kurt

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Bruce K H Kau]

I have been using FinWin2k8 for a month or so, mostly entering church 
music and doing free work for friends. I would by no means consider 
myself a heavy user, since this is my "night job" (at very low pay, 
i.e., zero). I also do my composition in Finale.


I have to admit the discussion of switching to Sibelius very tempting, 
given that, I still find much of using Finale pretty klunky. The lyric 
tools where I spend much of my time have not been updated in just about 
forever, and have actually gotten worse (the hyphen bug, while not a 
show-stopper, creates a lot of work-arounds; the music spacing 
algorithms badly need fixing; the interface in general needs to be 
re-done). I also really wish they would support Unicode text.


I was apprehensive at first about the change in the mass mover tool, but 
after having used it for a while, I find that it does indeed save me a 
lot of time.


I have, however, been very lucky in that I haven't had as many problems 
as others who are on this list. I would have to agree that 2k9 really 
needs to have all these bugs obliterated. Since I deal in software 
support in my day job, there is nothing as difficult for me as 
supporting buggy software. And, as an end user, I find few things as 
frustrating as meeting a deadline (I have one every Saturday) when much 
of your time is spent tweaking your way around hyphens, music spacing 
errors, and other bits of Finale Naughtiness.


I'm not ready to jump ship, but this does get frustrating. Maybe Finale 
should "sell no wine before its time."


On Oct 5, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Kurt Gnos wrote:


It seems people who write these kinds of topics don't read the rest of the
Finale maillist.

While I sympathize with switching to Sibelius, I've been doing that for
years, I must admit that I find Finale's new features, even if keeping the
bugs, worth the upgrade. The new "combined" "arrow/mass mover" tool and the
more "logical" menus have already saved me a lot of hours work.
The "less new" linked parts are worth weeks or months.



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Ray Horton]

Thanks for that news about the Sibelius special, Bruce.  I feel exactly 
as you do.



After a recurring blue screen at every boot-up (unrelated to Finale) 
earlier in the week, I had Vista wiped off of my PC and am starting over 
with XP - haven't even reinstalled Finale yet. 



I'm going to start with Fin2006 and all my Garritan stuff (including 
Garritan Studio like I used to run it), get that going, and then MAYBE 
see about trying '08 and NI2, if I get brave. 



Ray Horton


Bruce E. Clausen wrote:

I finally decided to take the plunge and invest in Sibelius 5.  I may later 
decide that Finale is the better program, but for now I want to compare.  As 
you may know, Sib5 is available to Finale users in a $199 Competitive Upgrade.  
The good news for me was that this month, October, Sib is offering the upgrade 
for half price, $99.  So instead of buying the Fin08 upgrade I have invested in 
Sib.  I don't think the terms will get any better.  I'm still a little worried 
that this is a case of the grass being greener, but at this price I don't think 
I'll get clipped.

Bruce E. Clausen
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


  

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[dhbailey]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 10/5/2007 9:02:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



The fine print on the October half-off offer is:...


and, as a heads-up, if you read "terms and conditions," you must send Sib the 
first two pages of the table of contents from your Finale manual. Photocopies 
not accepted. 


I don't suppose PDFs of the OLD count either, do they :)

--David Lawrence



I would suggest calling Sibelius and asking what sort of proof is needed 
if your only versions of Finale are those which didn't come with a 
printed manual.



--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Bunnydowns]

In a message dated 10/5/2007 9:02:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> The fine print on the October half-off offer is:...

and, as a heads-up, if you read "terms and conditions," you must send Sib the 
first two pages of the table of contents from your Finale manual. Photocopies 
not accepted. 

I don't suppose PDFs of the OLD count either, do they :)

--David Lawrence







**
 See what's new at http://www.aol.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Randolph Peters]

Randolph Peters wrote:

 > Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the overwhelming consensus
 > is that Finale 2008 has all the problems of 2007 and then some,

 without any new features that would make the pain more tolerable. (I
 know there are new features, but do they improve the day to day
 experience of Finale?)


 > I'll wait until the first bug-fix to reevaluate buying Finale 2008.


Kurt Gnos wrote:

It seems people who write these kinds of topics don't read the rest of the
Finale maillist.

While I sympathize with switching to Sibelius, I've been doing that for
years, I must admit that I find Finale's new features, even if keeping the
bugs, worth the upgrade. The new "combined" "arrow/mass mover" tool and the
more "logical" menus have already saved me a lot of hours work.
The "less new" linked parts are worth weeks or months.


I've tried the Finale 2008 demo and have monitored both Finale 
discussion lists carefully. Those who write favorably about Fin 2008 
have not convinced me that it is worth it and I was hoping someone 
might have an argument or point to make that I hadn't considered.


Having more logical menus is always a good idea, especially for new 
users, but experienced users tend to use macros for those things 
anyway. Rearranged menus just means having to spend more time 
changing the macros. No new functionality is added.


I can see that the new arrow/mass mover tool could be handier than 
the old way of selecting things, but again, with macros, changing 
from choosing partial measures or whole measures for the mass mover 
is an easy keystroke.


I hope that the linked parts will one day become a mature, flexible 
feature, but it is my understanding that nothing new was added to it 
since Fin 2007. Linked parts needed another level of development. 
Finale 2008 doesn't meet that need.


I'm not for or against switching to Sibelius, but the stalled 
development of Finale does make me look at it with more interest.


-Randolph Peters

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Christopher Smith]

On Oct 5, 2007, at 8:04 PM, Kurt Gnos wrote:

It seems people who write these kinds of topics don't read the rest  
of the

Finale maillist.

While I sympathize with switching to Sibelius, I've been doing that  
for
years, I must admit that I find Finale's new features, even if  
keeping the
bugs, worth the upgrade. The new "combined" "arrow/mass mover" tool  
and the

more "logical" menus have already saved me a lot of hours work.
The "less new" linked parts are worth weeks or months.


Hmm, they never saved me HOURS of work, since I spent more time  
looking for stuff than using it...


And I miss the old functionality of the Clear button (on Mac) that  
got rid only of measure entries. Now it clears EVERYTHING, so I have  
to go to the menu and go through the Clear Selected Items menu  
manually, which I only had to do in past if I wanted to get rid of a  
certain class of item.


But I am off 2008 now. And I won't be upgrading to 2009 unless some  
BIG bug fixes are made, including the almost ubiquitous file  
corruption problem.


Christopher


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Eric Dannewitz]

Yeah, this is true.

Wish they had SOME sort of interaction with their user base.

Until they get some buggies squashed, I'm sticking with 2007

dhbailey wrote:
Which in previous releases would have already been out by now.  
Another caution concerning MakeMusic -- either they can't fix those 
things they have already hinted they would fix in Fin2008 or the 
development team hasn't been allowed to spend enough time on the 
interim release to make it workable yet.


In the past we've usually had Fin2kxA by now.



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[dhbailey]

Randolph Peters wrote:

ThomaStudios wrote:
Well, this was the shove I needed.  50% off and you put it perfectly 
Bruce:  same cost as upgrading to Finale 2008, which I steadfastly 
refuse to do.  So I took the plunge and ordered the competitive upgrade.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the overwhelming consensus is 
that Finale 2008 has all the problems of 2007 and then some, without any 
new features that would make the pain more tolerable. (I know there are 
new features, but do they improve the day to day experience of Finale?)


I'll wait until the first bug-fix to reevaluate buying Finale 2008.



Which in previous releases would have already been out by now.  Another 
caution concerning MakeMusic -- either they can't fix those things they 
have already hinted they would fix in Fin2008 or the development team 
hasn't been allowed to spend enough time on the interim release to make 
it workable yet.


In the past we've usually had Fin2kxA by now.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

AW: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Kurt Gnos]

It seems people who write these kinds of topics don't read the rest of the
Finale maillist.

While I sympathize with switching to Sibelius, I've been doing that for
years, I must admit that I find Finale's new features, even if keeping the
bugs, worth the upgrade. The new "combined" "arrow/mass mover" tool and the
more "logical" menus have already saved me a lot of hours work.
The "less new" linked parts are worth weeks or months.

If Finale could make such progresses AND get rid of old bugs, I would stay
with it. But new features without bugfixes is not enough to hold me there.
And since most of our Finale problems are just not there in Sibelius...
(EPS, PDF)

I'm a loyal Finale user since 1.8 or so, and I know its ups and downs, and
still, enough is enough

Kurt

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Im
> Auftrag von Randolph Peters
> Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Oktober 2007 18:35
> An: finale@shsu.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5
> 
> ThomaStudios wrote:
> >Well, this was the shove I needed.  50% off and you put it perfectly
> >Bruce:  same cost as upgrading to Finale 2008, which I steadfastly
> >refuse to do.  So I took the plunge and ordered the competitive
> >upgrade.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the overwhelming consensus
> is that Finale 2008 has all the problems of 2007 and then some,
> without any new features that would make the pain more tolerable. (I
> know there are new features, but do they improve the day to day
> experience of Finale?)
> 
> I'll wait until the first bug-fix to reevaluate buying Finale 2008.
> 
> -Randolph Peters
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[ThomaStudios]

That's been my take on it.  I've been using 2007 since last year's  
upgrade, and have done several projects in it.  My last one was very  
complicated, modern notation with a 1/4 tone key signature setup.   
First big problem I ran into was file corruption.  And as is their  
usual sentiment, MM cannot replicate.  BS.


MM has their head so far up their corporate anal tract that sadly, I  
don't ever see them viewing the light of day again.  I'll hang around  
to see, due to the fact that I have an inordinately large body of  
work for clients in Finale.  So I basically have to.  But I'm not  
optimistic.


OTOH, I am starting to gear up some interest now that I've ordered  
the Sib5 upgrade.


J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios

On Oct 5, 2007, at 9:35 AM, Randolph Peters wrote:


ThomaStudios wrote:
Well, this was the shove I needed.  50% off and you put it  
perfectly Bruce:  same cost as upgrading to Finale 2008, which I  
steadfastly refuse to do.  So I took the plunge and ordered the  
competitive upgrade.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the overwhelming  
consensus is that Finale 2008 has all the problems of 2007 and then  
some, without any new features that would make the pain more  
tolerable. (I know there are new features, but do they improve the  
day to day experience of Finale?)


I'll wait until the first bug-fix to reevaluate buying Finale 2008.

-Randolph Peters
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Randolph Peters]

ThomaStudios wrote:
Well, this was the shove I needed.  50% off and you put it perfectly 
Bruce:  same cost as upgrading to Finale 2008, which I steadfastly 
refuse to do.  So I took the plunge and ordered the competitive 
upgrade.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the overwhelming consensus 
is that Finale 2008 has all the problems of 2007 and then some, 
without any new features that would make the pain more tolerable. (I 
know there are new features, but do they improve the day to day 
experience of Finale?)


I'll wait until the first bug-fix to reevaluate buying Finale 2008.

-Randolph Peters
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[dennis]

Darcy:
> Thanks for bringing that to our attention. That's a great offer. I'm
> not about to jump ship or anything, but for $100, it's definitely
> worth it to have a copy of Sibelius to play around with.

Yup. I've officially fallen for the temptation. MakeMusic made me do it. :)

Dennis



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Bruce E. Clausen]

Robert - I will definitely keep the list up to date on my experience with 
Sib.  I notice from your website that you are a horn player, too.  All of my 
playing was in California before I retired the horn.  Do you know Cal Smith?

BC


- Original Message - 
From: "Robert Patterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5



Bruce E. Clausen wrote:


I finally decided to take the plunge and invest in Sibelius 5.


I hope you will keep us informed on your progress. Especially what you 
like and dislike as compared with Finale.


--
Robert Patterson

http://RobertGPatterson.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Darcy James Argue]

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for bringing that to our attention. That's a great offer. I'm  
not about to jump ship or anything, but for $100, it's definitely  
worth it to have a copy of Sibelius to play around with.


Cheers,

- Darcy
-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Brooklyn, NY



On 05 Oct 2007, at 12:01 PM, Bruce E. Clausen wrote:


Dennis - The fine print on the October half-off offer is:
North/Central/South America: Offer only available to Finale,  
Encore, Mosaic and Sibelius Student Edition users residing within  
North, Central and South America (Allegro, PrintMusic, Finale  
Guitar, etc. are not eligible).


I should have mentioned this in my first post.  Apologies.  The  
notice for the offer is on the home page of Sib. http:// 
www.sibelius.com/home/index_flash.html


BC

From: "dc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ; "Finale" 
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5



Bruce E. Clausen écrit:
I finally decided to take the plunge and invest in Sibelius 5.  I  
may later decide that Finale is the better program, but for now I  
want to compare.  As you may know, Sib5 is available to Finale  
users in a $199 Competitive Upgrade.  The good news for me was  
that this month, October, Sib is offering the upgrade for half  
price, $99.  So instead of buying the Fin08 upgrade I have  
invested in Sib.  I don't think the terms will get any better.   
I'm still a little worried that this is a case of the grass being  
greener, but at this price I don't think I'll get clipped.


Hi Bruce,

Where did you find this offer? I just wrote to Sibelius to ask why  
the prices were so much higher in Europe, and got the following  
reply. Which means that anyone could ship to Europe if they want  
to, since Sibelius admits that they can't "enforce" this dubious  
policy.


In answer to your question regarding price difference between the  
USA and Europe, we have to price our products taking into  
consideration the price of our competitors over which we have no  
control. As software along with nearly everything else is  
significantly cheaper in the US we have to adjust our price  
accordingly, this is simply economic fact. In addition higher  
local prices in the UK (from everything from rent to salaries)  
mean that it costs businesses more to operate here than in the  
USA. Sibelius USA only ships to addresses in the US but we cannot  
enforce such regulations on our various US dealers who are free  
to ship overseas if they wish.


Dennis



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[ThomaStudios]

Well, this was the shove I needed.  50% off and you put it perfectly  
Bruce:  same cost as upgrading to Finale 2008, which I steadfastly  
refuse to do.  So I took the plunge and ordered the competitive upgrade.


I'll report in once I've worked it into a project.

J D  Thomas
ThomaStudios
Bruce E. Clausen:
I finally decided to take the plunge and invest in Sibelius 5.  I  
may later decide that Finale is the better program, but for now I  
want to compare.  As you may know, Sib5 is available to Finale  
users in a $199 Competitive Upgrade.  The good news for me was that  
this month, October, Sib is offering the upgrade for half price,  
$99.  So instead of buying the Fin08 upgrade I have invested in  
Sib.  I don't think the terms will get any better.  I'm still a  
little worried that this is a case of the grass being greener, but  
at this price I don't think I'll get clipped.



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Bruce E. Clausen]

Dennis - The fine print on the October half-off offer is:
North/Central/South America: Offer only available to Finale, Encore, Mosaic 
and Sibelius Student Edition users residing within North, Central and South 
America (Allegro, PrintMusic, Finale Guitar, etc. are not eligible).


I should have mentioned this in my first post.  Apologies.  The notice for 
the offer is on the home page of Sib. 
http://www.sibelius.com/home/index_flash.html


BC

From: "dc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ; "Finale" 
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5



Bruce E. Clausen écrit:
I finally decided to take the plunge and invest in Sibelius 5.  I may 
later decide that Finale is the better program, but for now I want to 
compare.  As you may know, Sib5 is available to Finale users in a $199 
Competitive Upgrade.  The good news for me was that this month, October, 
Sib is offering the upgrade for half price, $99.  So instead of buying the 
Fin08 upgrade I have invested in Sib.  I don't think the terms will get 
any better.  I'm still a little worried that this is a case of the grass 
being greener, but at this price I don't think I'll get clipped.


Hi Bruce,

Where did you find this offer? I just wrote to Sibelius to ask why the 
prices were so much higher in Europe, and got the following reply. Which 
means that anyone could ship to Europe if they want to, since Sibelius 
admits that they can't "enforce" this dubious policy.


In answer to your question regarding price difference between the USA and 
Europe, we have to price our products taking into consideration the price 
of our competitors over which we have no control. As software along with 
nearly everything else is significantly cheaper in the US we have to 
adjust our price accordingly, this is simply economic fact. In addition 
higher local prices in the UK (from everything from rent to salaries) mean 
that it costs businesses more to operate here than in the USA. Sibelius 
USA only ships to addresses in the US but we cannot enforce such 
regulations on our various US dealers who are free to ship overseas if 
they wish.


Dennis



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5

[Robert Patterson]

Bruce E. Clausen wrote:


I finally decided to take the plunge and invest in Sibelius 5.


I hope you will keep us informed on your progress. Especially what you 
like and dislike as compared with Finale.


--
Robert Patterson

http://RobertGPatterson.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Sibelius 5

[Bruce E. Clausen]

I finally decided to take the plunge and invest in Sibelius 5.  I may later 
decide that Finale is the better program, but for now I want to compare.  As 
you may know, Sib5 is available to Finale users in a $199 Competitive Upgrade.  
The good news for me was that this month, October, Sib is offering the upgrade 
for half price, $99.  So instead of buying the Fin08 upgrade I have invested in 
Sib.  I don't think the terms will get any better.  I'm still a little worried 
that this is a case of the grass being greener, but at this price I don't think 
I'll get clipped.

Bruce E. Clausen
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Bunnydowns]

In a message dated 6/11/2007 3:49:44 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> The first thing Tech Support says to do if you report any of the  
> above bugs, is "re-install Finale" which NEVER does anything except  
> make you lose all your preferences and edited component files.

Correct, but hardly a problem specific to Finale. It's a sentence that 
someone who is in no way qualified to do tech support can read off a sheet of 
paper. 
It also represents penny-pinching on the part of management, which doesn't 
want to spend the money to train most of their support people in anything more 
than a minimal way.

In software terms generally, there *are* users who need to uninstall and 
reinstall: they're probably the bottom 5% of the customer base, who have 
carelessly allowed their installations to become so corrupted that they 
actually are 
better off starting over.

Given that aspect of it, it adds insult to injury when I hear it. For the 
rest of us, there normally is a fix well short of a reinstall--it's just a 
question of finding a person who knows what it is. Of the hundreds of times 
I've 
been given the instruction to reinstall software, I've done it exactly twice, 
and 
regretted it both times.

David Lawrence ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


**
 See 
what's free at http://www.aol.com.
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 11, 2007, at 9:27 AM, dc wrote:
 Why don't we start a list of 2007's worst bugs? If we are numerous  
to agree on these, perhaps we could convince MM to act?


For me,

#1 is the hyphen bug, or rather bugs, because there are several  
hyphen bugs (disappearing hyphens and misplaced hyphens, non  
wysywigness of the hyphens, etc.), to which I'd add, although MM  
probably considers this as a feature, the wrong, or at least  
unadjustable placement of the first hyphen after a system break.


I made a quick list in a previous email, but here they are in an  
order of how much they bug me and completely explained. There may be  
others, but they don't occur to me right now.



Enharmonic "fllip" using the 9 key in Speedy Entry does not stick,  
nor does it work consistently. It also messes up several other  
operations once you have pressed it more than once, including copying  
music, transposing music, and explode music (it causes the top line  
to take the LOWEST note of the chord instead of the highest, and  
drops the top note completely, as well as spelling that note  
differently.)


Chord symbols do not transpose when they are assigned to a staff that  
uses Chromatic Transposition. This dates back many versions now.


Shape expressions with imported graphics have handles that are far  
offset from where they are supposed to be (down and to the left) and  
this amount changes between score and parts, apparently related to  
staff height, though not exactly, so you never know where your  
expression is going to be placed or if it will stay there.


Any note expression entered with the expression tool will be  
displaced if the staff has been reduced with the zoom tool.


Hyphens. Urrgh, I don't want to get into it. Others have explained it  
better in any case.


Repeat tool - repeat expressions like DS and Coda will not stay where  
you place them, if you put them right of the right barline or left of  
the left barline. The amount they move also changes between score and  
parts, and may be related to staff height (I didn't bother chasing it  
down, because these expressions have been buggy for many versions now  
and I long ago switched to staff expressions for these items.)


2-up printing seems to be broken. At least, I can't get it to work  
with my HP 5100.


There seem to be problems with the installer on Mac. I can't pin  
things down exactly, but some things don't go in the folders they are  
supposed to go in (like plugins), and factory libraries won't load  
(you get an error message.) Libraries that you save yourself are fine.


Repeat brackets - when they are placed over a first ending that ends  
up containing a multimeasure rest in a part, then the horizontal bars  
are too long and they are not selectable in Page View.


Staff Styles, when copied in the score, do not appear properly to  
linked parts. You have to select Relink Staff Styles to Score while  
in the part to fix it.


Un-selecting "Include in measure numbering" causes strange problems  
to crop up, like applying Barline styles to two adjacent measures at  
once, among others. Once again, I didn't bother tracking it down  
exactly, because I just stopped using the feature as hopelessly buggy.


When you select Barline Styles as something to copy, ONLY the barline  
style itself is copied. As far as I can tell, none of the options  
(like break multimeasure rest) are copied, meaning that you THINK you  
have copied a double barline that breaks a rest, but you haven't.


Many plugins don't work on linked parts.

When stems get shortened (in passages with more than one layer in the  
same measure) only beamed stems and quarter and half note stems get  
shortened. Flagged stems do not.


Adding a new staff with Setup Wizard doesn't give you the same  
options as if you created a score from scratch with the Setup Wizard,  
for instance it doesn't create a new instrument for playback, it  
doesn't add a third and fourth trumpet to the existing group of  
trumpets (it creates a new group of trumpets numbering from 1 again)  
and other minor annoyances.


When new systems get created (say, you add measures to a piece), they  
don't have the same staff height as the previous systems. On linked  
parts, there is only one way to alter this, which is Page  
Layout>Resize Staff System... (the zoom tool doesn't work.)


Check Document Fonts Against System Fonts hasn't worked on my Mac for  
several versions now. This is just one of several annoyances with  
fonts that I think is Mac-specific.


Extraneous beat charts seem to get created for no reason, with no  
apparent cause. This causes spacing problems, most noticeable in  
measures with Slash Notation staff style applied.


The first thing Tech Support says to do if you report any of the  
above bugs, is "re-install Finale" which NEVER does anything except  
make you lose all your preferences and edited component files. (Ok,  
that one isn't a BUG, but it IS annoying!)


Chri

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[dhbailey]

Richard Huggins wrote:
Excellent idea. An update with NO "new features" would demonstrate MM';s 
commitment to maintain leadership status and its responsiveness to its 
user base. Part of me wonders if the programmers wouldn't cheer an 
announcement in staff meeting to the effect, "Folks, we're goin' bug 
squashing!"




I definitely think there would be a thunderous cheer should such a thing 
be announced.


But marketing has to get their little say (actually it has become the 
tail that wags the dog) so perhaps some little new, easy to program 
feature or appearance issue (remember textured paper?) so that they have 
some new features to brag about, but the majority of the upgrade being 
committed to squashing long-standing bugs and putting more meat into 
features which have been there for a long time.


Heck, even being able to announce Linked Score/Parts v2.0, where the 
developers have been allowed finally to do what should have been done 
for version 1, would be a great thing.


And the ability to re-squash bugs which had been long dormant but 
somehow got resurrected for Fin2007 would be very welcome by the 
developers.  They don't want to issue buggy software, not by a 
long-shot, but when the marketing department has more clout as to what 
gets included (remember MicNotator?) and the developers simply have to 
say "yes, sir," there's nothing they can do about it.


I would prefer Sibelius' every-two-years-approximately upgrades with 
major fixes and improvements where the development team has been allowed 
to do its job properly and not be rushed, with the higher price ($169), 
rather than Finale's once-a-year, get-it-out-the-door-no-matter-what 
schedule at $90.


And the $30 that Sibelius charges for it's printed version of the 
on-line-documentation gets you a real book, not just an inhouse printing 
of a 2-up copy.


At first I was hesitant about Sibelius' future when it was bought out by 
the same company which owns M-Audio, but it seems as if that company has 
a better handle on how to let software companies operate than MakeMusic has.


Oh well, time will tell.  Once the Sib5 program is actually in people's 
hands and we have a chance to see if it lives up to its promise (the 
Kontakt2 player that will ship with it allows 16 channels per instance 
rather than the 8 channels per instance that Finale has) or if it falls 
short.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Richard Huggins]

Excellent idea. An update with NO "new features" would demonstrate  
MM';s commitment to maintain leadership status and its responsiveness  
to its user base. Part of me wonders if the programmers wouldn't  
cheer an announcement in staff meeting to the effect, "Folks, we're  
goin' bug squashing!"


--Richard


On Jun 11, 2007, at 6:11 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

It seems that Sibelius has done what we asked Make Music to do: An  
update which repairs bugs and fixes all the little things which are  
problematic. I really, really wished MakeMusic would do exactly  
that, too.

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced, now top 2007 bugs

[Dennis Bathory-Kitsz]

At 03:05 PM 6/11/2007 -0400, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:
>Finale's PDFs onscreen have always looked bloody awful (this is for PC
>users, I'm sure on the MAC it's a different story). I've never
>understood what could be so difficult about fixing something so simple
>as this.

It works fine (small and clean) if you use the "Compile Postscript Listing"
selection. These even supports custom page sizes in Finale 2007.

Check out some of the scores at http://maltedmedia.com/waam/

The only thing "Compile Postscript Listing" doesn't support is embedding
graphics. :(

Dennis




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced, now top 2007 bugs

[Kim Patrick Clow]

On 6/11/07, Raymond Horton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

#1 for me is the one I've posted here to no solution, and the reason I
can't use 2007 at all.  At any given time, at printing time, my full
pages print as only a postage stamp size.  Only solution at that point
was to print as PDFs.  It happened too often, with no warning.
Once the stamps showed up, they printed on different printers.


Finale's PDFs onscreen have always looked bloody awful (this is for PC
users, I'm sure on the MAC it's a different story). I've never
understood what could be so difficult about fixing something so simple
as this.

Good luck!

Kim Patrick Clow
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced, now top 2007 bugs

[Raymond Horton]

dc wrote:

Johannes Gebauer écrit:
I really, really wished MakeMusic would do exactly that, too. I'd 
happily pay for such an update. Fin2k7 is a nightmare to work with, 
it has reached a critical mass of bugs and problems which is 
unacceptable, and almost impossible to work with.


I'd also pay for that, though less happily. Why don't we start a list 
of 2007's worst bugs? If we are numerous to agree on these, perhaps we 
could convince MM to act?


For me,

#1 is the hyphen bug, or rather bugs, because there are several hyphen 
bugs (disappearing hyphens and misplaced hyphens, non wysywigness of 
the hyphens, etc.), to which I'd add, although MM probably considers 
this as a feature, the wrong, or at least unadjustable placement of 
the first hyphen after a system break.


Dennis


#1 for me is the one I've posted here to no solution, and the reason I 
can't use 2007 at all.  At any given time, at printing time, my full 
pages print as only a postage stamp size.  Only solution at that point 
was to print as PDFs.  It happened too often, with no warning. 
Once the stamps showed up, they printed on different printers.



Raymond Horton 
___

Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 11.06.2007 dc wrote:

For me,

#1 is the hyphen bug, or rather bugs, because there are several hyphen bugs 
(disappearing hyphens and misplaced hyphens, non wysywigness of the hyphens, 
etc.), to which I'd add, although MM probably considers this as a feature, the 
wrong, or at least unadjustable placement of the first hyphen after a system 
break.


My #1 is Engraver Slurs, actually it is probably #1-#10 because there 
are so many bugs about them, which make it almost impossible to use them 
in real publications, since they are definitely not WYSIWYG, and every 
single one needs to be checked and many of them corrected. They are a 
real nightmare for me.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 08.06.2007 Christopher Smith wrote:

On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:47 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:


Sibelius 5 has been announced. Looking at the new features briefly, I see they 
have added easy cue notes. Perhaps finally Finale will include such, too? I 
have been asking for it for years.


Huh? In the Plugins menu under Scoring and Arranging you have Add Cue Notes, which 
is just a fewer-featured example of TG Tools Parts>Add Cue Notes. What's the 
difference?


You know, I think there is an enormous difference, at least if the new 
Easy Cue Notes in Sibelius work the way they seem to work.


The Finale implementations work by actually working around the 
limitations of layers, which are very inadequate to be used for Cue 
notes in the first place. The mentioned plugins do make some of these 
work arounds a little easier to handle, but they are still very clumsy 
to work. I have asked for better cue notes integration for years. I am 
not again going to elaborate how I think this should be done, but part 
of it would be to have a new, independent, cue note layer, which can 
hold mirrors of real parts as well as independent notes.
I have completely given up from using the smart cue notes plugin, it 
seems to cause me more problems than it is worth. The simpler version 
sort of works, but so much extra work is required afterwards that I 
sometimes wonder why we have a computer for this at all, I would be 
quicker writing the cues in by hand.


BTW, as far as I am concerned, Cues simply aren't functional for linked 
parts. Everytime I tried this I ended up saving a separate parts score, 
as anything else just cost me time but eventually showed unsolvable 
problems.


It seems that the Sibelius approach is different and more adequate. If 
it is, I am sure we will see something like this no later than Fin2k9.


As far as the other changes in Sibelius 5 go: It seems that Sibelius has 
done what we asked Make Music to do: An update which repairs bugs and 
fixes all the little things which are problematic. I really, really 
wished MakeMusic would do exactly that, too. I'd happily pay for such an 
update. Fin2k7 is a nightmare to work with, it has reached a critical 
mass of bugs and problems which is unacceptable, and almost impossible 
to work with.


Johannes


And Sibelius has finally added Scroll View (called Panorama), the equivalent of 
Staff Styles (for instrument changes), made the code Universal Binary, allowed 
advanced page layout, allowed Plugins to be undoable in short, it seems for 
once to be playing catchup with Finale, rather than vice-versa!




--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Aaron Sherber]

At 07:15 AM 6/8/2007, dhbailey wrote:
>Sibelius 5 has been announced, and final barrier to many Finale users
>has fallen.  They now have their version of  scroll-view, called Panorama.

Yes, that was my first thought as well.

Aaron.

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Richard Huggins]

I root for Sibelius even though I've never used it and can't imagine  
using it unless a project client demands it and the project is worth  
learning it. Keep the heat on! Breathe down MM's neck! Get better and  
better.


In the jungle, strong animals get old or sick. You know what happens  
to them. I presume that MM want to make money the old-fashioned way  
(compete for it with a better product) and that it knows you can't  
fool savvy users. But, mismanagement is nothing new to American  
business, and if MM has by some means morphed into mismanagement,  
what a pity indeed. The management team would deserve every single  
penalty its performance brings. Sadly, we and innocent employees of  
MM would pay the price as well.


But I don't know enough to know that this has happened to MM or is in  
progress. I just hope they admit that they are as vulnerable as the  
next company absent any meaningful strategy to stay in the leader's  
position.


I still enjoy using Finale and especially that it is so vast that  
there's almost always a way to do something that must be done.


--Richard


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[John Howell]

At 4:06 PM -0400 6/8/07, dhbailey wrote:

Eric Dannewitz wrote:

Oh wow, they have a SCROLL VIEW now. Wow. Amazing. Those guys are great.



Well it may be a yawn to you, but it is certainly attracting this 
finale-user's interest!  And other folks' as well.


Especially in view of how many of the recent Finale upgrades have 
been mirrors of the previous Sibelius release (incorporating Kontakt 
player was Sibelius first, linked score/parts was Sibelius first).


Actually Mosaic had linked score/parts from the very beginning, c. 
1992.  Only took 12 or 14 years for BOTH Finale and Sibelius to catch 
up!!  Not that there weren't a ton of things Mosaic could NOT do, but 
one thing it COULD do was to give professional results with the 
defaults right out of the box.


John


--
John & Susie Howell
Virginia Tech Department of Music
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced ...

[keith helgesen]

Humour?

K in OZ

Keith Helgesen.
Ph: (02) 62910787. 
Mob 0417-042171

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
shirling & neueweise
Sent: Saturday, 9 June 2007 12:08 AM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: RE: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced ...


if you only like humour that is good and clean, don't bother clicking here:
<http://www.netdisaster.com/go.php?mode=vomit&url=http://www.sibelius.com/pr
oducts/sibelius/5/index.html>

-- 

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Eric Dannewitz]

Um, no. If I cannot easily import all my exisiting stuff into Sibelius, 
that is a deal breaker. MusicXML doesn't cut it. I would want/need 
something that opens it and I don't have to futz with it.


Yeah, scroll view is a great feature which I need and use all the time. 
It's great Sibelius finally decided to put it in. And its great that 
they, after about a year after Finale did it, make an application that 
is Universal Binary on Mac. All great selling points no doubt.


Johannes Gebauer wrote:

On 08.06.2007 dhbailey wrote:

Eric Dannewitz wrote:
Oh wow, they have a SCROLL VIEW now. Wow. Amazing. Those guys are 
great.




Well it may be a yawn to you, but it is certainly attracting this 
finale-user's interest!  And other folks' as well.


[snip]

Thanks David, for spelling out what I was thinking, too.

Johannes


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finalehad better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Owain Sutton]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David W. Fenton
> Sent: 08 June 2007 22:19
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and 
> Finalehad better start coming up with significant improvements!
> 
> 
> On 8 Jun 2007 at 14:08, Eric Dannewitz wrote:
> 
> > David W. Fenton wrote:
> > > On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:13, Christopher Smith wrote:
> > >   
> > >> the clipboard for music seems
> > >> moderately interesting, 
> > >
> > > Seems pretty easy to implement, though I'm not sure why. 
> I usually 
> > > just use scratch staves within the same file.
> >
> > Yeah, but this looks like a repository available to all 
> scores you are 
> > working on. Kind of like a Garageband for musical scores (like, you 
> > can pick a lick and put it in)
> 
> Well, it's easy enough to keep a file as a scratch pad, so I just 
> don't see this as too big of a deal. You could store the data in a 
> Finale file and build an interface that presents it just like the 
> Sibelius implementation. In other words, It doesn't look like that 
> big of a deal to me -- it's a fit-and-finish feature, not a real 
> productivity-enhancer.
> 
> -- 
> David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
> David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/
> 



It's another move with a big focus on the education market, as far as I
can see.  I immediately saw its potential to draw pupils away from the
page in front of them, and to focus on half-a-dozen ideas which they're
supposedly using.  Or in more competent cases, simply keeping half of a
conversation accessible when the bell rings, or another pupil
interrupts, or whatever.   Setting up a separate file for this kind of
thing just isn't an option.


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 08.06.2007 Aaron Sherber wrote:

It does look like it's the eqiuivalent of Fin2007's Add Cue Notes and then 
apply the Blank Notation with Rests staff style, all in one pass.

(Though frankly, the limitations of this staff style in Finale are one of the 
reasons I still do a separate parts score in Fin2007.)


Well, the way they advertise, not only will it work in linked parts 
(which, frankly, isn't the case in Finale, I have lost a lot of hair on 
this, and as soon as things get more complex there is simply no other 
option than to do a separate parts score), it also seems a lot easier 
than any of the plugin attempts in Finale, which I hate. Cue notes is 
what takes me most time in Finale.


Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Johannes Gebauer]

On 08.06.2007 dhbailey wrote:

Eric Dannewitz wrote:

Oh wow, they have a SCROLL VIEW now. Wow. Amazing. Those guys are great.



Well it may be a yawn to you, but it is certainly attracting this finale-user's 
interest!  And other folks' as well.


[snip]

Thanks David, for spelling out what I was thinking, too.

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 8, 2007, at 4:50 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote:



But, I have never had any issues with bugs in Finale 2007. Probably  
a lot of people haven't.


Holy moley! Are you kidding?

I haven't had so many problems with bugs EVER in Finale as I do in  
2007, and this is going back to 3.2!


Maybe it's just the kind of things I do with the program that are  
different than what you do, but I am constantly having to work around  
things that just don't do what they are supposed to. And new things  
keep cropping up every day (like this stupid BIAB autoharmoniser,  
that I haven't even looked at since I first checked it out how many  
versions ago, and now I could use it and it didn't work. Apparently I  
have to do a reinstall of Finale, which didn't go well the first  
time, and I don't expect it to go well this time either.)


And libraries don't load (I get error messages), and I keep getting  
files corrupted so that I can't insert measures, and articulations  
still seem to bounce around, and expressions don't place themselves  
correctly on reduced staves, and lyric hyphens, and the enharmonic  
flip, and explode music, and chord symbols STILL don't transpose with  
chromatic staff transposition, and shape expressions with imported  
graphics have handles that jump around even greater distances and  
more unpredictably than the previous buggy version, and repeat tool  
signs for coda and DS still jump around randomly whenever they are  
horizontally placed outside the barline after I don't how many  
versions, and repeat brackets are way too long and not selectable in  
parts when they are over a multimeasure rest, and "do not include in  
measure numbering" screws up all kinds of things and so is useless,  
and staff styles don't copy properly, and they don't transfer to the  
parts properly without a workaround, and copying barline styles does  
not copy the state of the checked box "break multimeasure rest" so  
you could have a double bar that you THINK breaks a rest, but doesn't  
really, and systems added to an old file don't necessarily have the  
same staff height as the other systems and don't respond to the zoom  
tool (took me a while to find the way around THAT one!), and my old  
fonts don't work the same way, and I keep getting empty measures of  
slashes not spacing correctly because of extraneous beat charts  
(thanks TG Tools for helping me sort that one out) and so many  
plugins don't work on linked parts...


Ah, I'm getting tired again...

Christopher


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[David W. Fenton]

On 8 Jun 2007 at 14:08, Eric Dannewitz wrote:

> David W. Fenton wrote:
> > On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:13, Christopher Smith wrote:
> >   
> >> the clipboard for music seems  
> >> moderately interesting, 
> >
> > Seems pretty easy to implement, though I'm not sure why. I usually
> > just use scratch staves within the same file.
>
> Yeah, but this looks like a repository available to all scores you are
> working on. Kind of like a Garageband for musical scores (like, you
> can pick a lick and put it in)

Well, it's easy enough to keep a file as a scratch pad, so I just 
don't see this as too big of a deal. You could store the data in a 
Finale file and build an interface that presents it just like the 
Sibelius implementation. In other words, It doesn't look like that 
big of a deal to me -- it's a fit-and-finish feature, not a real 
productivity-enhancer.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[shirling & neueweise]

While I would like to have a bugless program, I don't think that is 
really likely from any software company.


my point was simply that sib5 might not have a "major" new feature 
but it seems to be a version with many very important improvements; 
i.e. they actually **did** resolve a lot of outstanding issues and 
**have** in fact fixed many bugs.


in other words, this is an upgrade that seems well worth the $ for 
any sib user, if everything works as it shoud and no new bugs are 
introduced.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Eric Dannewitz]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:13, Christopher Smith wrote:

  
the clipboard for music seems  
moderately interesting, 



Seems pretty easy to implement, though I'm not sure why. I usually 
just use scratch staves within the same file.


  
Yeah, but this looks like a repository available to all scores you are 
working on. Kind of like a Garageband for musical scores (like, you can 
pick a lick and put it in)


and the possibilities for 
different sound libraries for playback seems easier than Finale, 



It doesn't say, though, if you can mix GPO with other synthesizers.

  
Yeah. Great point. Unless I were to go purchase a real high end machine, 
I couldn't do a mockup of my scores using just GPO..sadly..


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Eric Dannewitz]

While I would like to have a bugless program, I don't think that is 
really likely from any software company. Ideally, yeah, it would be 
great if they could just go through and fix a lot of outstanding issues. 
But, they also need to keep adding features.so there is a balance.


But, I have never had any issues with bugs in Finale 2007. Probably a 
lot of people haven't. In the next release, if they can hone in the 
linked parts and maybe squash a couple of bugs, andwho 
knows.I'll be happy.


But, for how many years did Sibelius NOT do a scroll view? That was my 
major decision never to go to Sibelius full time. I can't stand the page 
thing it has.


shirling & neueweise wrote:



Oh wow, they have a SCROLL VIEW now. Wow. Amazing. Those guys are great.


from what i have seen (and following discussions with a sib power-user 
colleague) i think the value of this release is that they have 
actually -- seemingly -- addressed a number of long-standing issues 
with sibelius.   it seems to be a fairly major "improvement version".


i find this quite valuable actually, and can only dream of the year 
when finale does something similar, stopping the whole "bulldoze 
forward and hope we don't fuck anything up and if we do, well maybe 
we'll deal with it sometime, maybe we won't" approach to concentrate 
on fixing the many loong-standing and newly introduced bugs, 
finishing the half-ass jobs they started, and making those things that 
have the potential to be incredibly powerful tools into in fact very 
powerful tools.




___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[dhbailey]

Christopher Smith wrote:


On Jun 8, 2007, at 4:06 PM, dhbailey wrote:



Such as making tech-support easier and friendlier for starters.


I don't know when you emailed tech support last, but they changed things 
a few months ago. It's through email now, and you don't have to give 
your mother's maiden name every time you want to ask a question. Quite a 
bit better than the labyrinth net interface they had before.


Sorry the guys they have working it don't seem to be quite 100 watts, 
though. And they will NEVER admit anything is wrong with the program! 
Just say, "Sorry, that's a bug. We know about it and will try to fix it 
in the next update." and we will calm down a lot.




Well, I'm glad they've changed that - I haven't needed finale tech 
support in recent months.


Too bad they can't get the human response any better.

Sibelius says that all the time, when it's true, and nobody on the 
Sibelius list ever gets angry over the tech support issues.


Wish I could say the same for the Finale list here.


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 8 Jun 2007 at 15:57, dhbailey wrote:


Using the Mixer window you can assign any of the installed devices to
any staff, so the answer is Yes you can use the Kontakt player for
some staves and any other midi device for other staves.  Sib4 doesn't
come with a soundfont engine the way that Finale does, but you can
certainly install softsynths of your own and use a virtual midi device
such as Midi-yoke to run the midi output for whichever staves through
midiyoke into any softsynth you want.


What about hardware MIDI devices?



Yes, any midi device which shows up can be assigned to any staff.

So you could have an external module attached via Audigy Midi Out 1, you 
could have another attached via Audigy Midi Out 2, as well as using the 
Kontakt player and also using virtual midi connections such as midi-yoke.


Any devices which are enabled (have the Use column entry in Playback and 
Input Devices dialog set to "yes" are possible to be used for Sibelius 
playback.


Now getting all those different devices to balance properly or to record 
from them is a different problem, but the playback sounds can be 
directed to any midi device, hardware or software, which shows up in the 
Playback and Input Devices dialog and is set to "yes."


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[shirling & neueweise]

Oh wow, they have a SCROLL VIEW now. Wow. Amazing. Those guys are great.


from what i have seen (and following discussions with a sib 
power-user colleague) i think the value of this release is that they 
have actually -- seemingly -- addressed a number of long-standing 
issues with sibelius.   it seems to be a fairly major "improvement 
version".


i find this quite valuable actually, and can only dream of the year 
when finale does something similar, stopping the whole "bulldoze 
forward and hope we don't fuck anything up and if we do, well maybe 
we'll deal with it sometime, maybe we won't" approach to concentrate 
on fixing the many loong-standing and newly introduced bugs, 
finishing the half-ass jobs they started, and making those things 
that have the potential to be incredibly powerful tools into in fact 
very powerful tools.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 8, 2007, at 4:06 PM, dhbailey wrote:



Such as making tech-support easier and friendlier for starters.


I don't know when you emailed tech support last, but they changed  
things a few months ago. It's through email now, and you don't have  
to give your mother's maiden name every time you want to ask a  
question. Quite a bit better than the labyrinth net interface they  
had before.


Sorry the guys they have working it don't seem to be quite 100 watts,  
though. And they will NEVER admit anything is wrong with the program!  
Just say, "Sorry, that's a bug. We know about it and will try to fix  
it in the next update." and we will calm down a lot.


Christopher


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[David W. Fenton]

On 8 Jun 2007 at 15:57, dhbailey wrote:

> Using the Mixer window you can assign any of the installed devices to
> any staff, so the answer is Yes you can use the Kontakt player for
> some staves and any other midi device for other staves.  Sib4 doesn't
> come with a soundfont engine the way that Finale does, but you can
> certainly install softsynths of your own and use a virtual midi device
> such as Midi-yoke to run the midi output for whichever staves through
> midiyoke into any softsynth you want.

What about hardware MIDI devices?

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[dhbailey]

Eric Dannewitz wrote:

Oh wow, they have a SCROLL VIEW now. Wow. Amazing. Those guys are great.



Well it may be a yawn to you, but it is certainly attracting this 
finale-user's interest!  And other folks' as well.


Especially in view of how many of the recent Finale upgrades have been 
mirrors of the previous Sibelius release (incorporating Kontakt player 
was Sibelius first, linked score/parts was Sibelius first).


And that scroll-view, as David Fenton says, is addressing a major issue 
which holds may Finale users back from trying Sibelius.


Finale had better sit up and take notice and not just think they can do 
whatever they feel like.


Oh yes, Sibelius had textured paper LONG before Finale did.  :-)

So with Finale having played catch-up to this young whippersnapper of a 
program for the past few years, if Sibelius can resolve some Finale 
users' final objections (I wonder if the page-layout enhancements in 
Sib5 will address some of the supposed "for that final 5% you need 
Finale" issues), MakeMusic will need to do a lot to attract and keep new 
users and long-time users.


Such as making tech-support easier and friendlier for starters.

Failure to address long-standing bugs is another symbol of a "we don't 
have to care, we're the leaders" mentality which will have the Sibelius 
tortoise crossing the finish line way ahead of the Finale hare.


And while Finale may have jumped on the file-overwrite issue quickly, it 
has certainly dropped the ball on the hyphens issue and I have yet to 
see any fix coming for the speedy-entry re-spell notes bug.


Oh, yeah, I forgot, we have to pay for any major fixes over the freebie 
limit of 1, so we'll see those issues addressed in the next upgrade 
which we'll be expected to pay for, even though they were nonexistent in 
the previous upgrade which we paid for.


Funny how business works -- I coulda sworn that such things used to 
fixed for free and with an apology!


--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Aaron Sherber]

At 12:20 PM 6/8/2007, David W. Fenton wrote:
>On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:13, Christopher Smith wrote:
>
>> On
>> the plus side for Sib, "Paste as cue" seems to save a mouse click or
>> two over running a plugin in Finale
>
>Reading between the lines of other features that impinge on cues
>notes, it seems like it's implemented in a way that works with linked
>parts. That's much bigger than just saving a mouse click.

It does look like it's the eqiuivalent of Fin2007's Add Cue Notes and 
then apply the Blank Notation with Rests staff style, all in one pass.


(Though frankly, the limitations of this staff style in Finale are 
one of the reasons I still do a separate parts score in Fin2007.)


Aaron.

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[dhbailey]

David W. Fenton wrote:

On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:13, Christopher Smith wrote:

the clipboard for music seems  
moderately interesting, 


Seems pretty easy to implement, though I'm not sure why. I usually 
just use scratch staves within the same file.


cut-and-paste to Word for musical examples 
certainly saves some fudging around, 


If the graphic export in Finale supported something other than TIFF 
for bitmapped export, it would be a lot easier. Sibelius added PNG 
export, and if Finale added that, it would then be *very* easy to 
implement cut and paste of graphics into other apps. 

and the possibilities for 
different sound libraries for playback seems easier than Finale, 


It doesn't say, though, if you can mix GPO with other synthesizers.





Using the Mixer window you can assign any of the installed devices to 
any staff, so the answer is Yes you can use the Kontakt player for some 
staves and any other midi device for other staves.  Sib4 doesn't come 
with a soundfont engine the way that Finale does, but you can certainly 
install softsynths of your own and use a virtual midi device such as 
Midi-yoke to run the midi output for whichever staves through midiyoke 
into any softsynth you want.


It's a much more robust midi implementation than Finale's in that regard.

--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Eric Dannewitz]

Oh wow, they have a SCROLL VIEW now. Wow. Amazing. Those guys are great.

*Yawn*

The ideas hub is an interesting idea though..

Johannes Gebauer wrote:
Sibelius 5 has been announced. Looking at the new features briefly, I 
see they have added easy cue notes. Perhaps finally Finale will 
include such, too? I have been asking for it for years.


Johannes


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Eric Dannewitz]

Eh, the only thing that looks "NEW" is the Idea thing. The other 
stuff...who cares? They have a Scroll View. Wow. Cool. Finally. And 
a new hand font. Wooo. And GPO sounds. Oooo.


Look, if you want to go, go. Until Sibelius can open my Finale files 
without MusicXML, I'm staying with Finale. I don't feel like changing 
thousands of files into it. Plus, Finale does everything I want it to do 
and I am awaiting some excellent improvements.


AND, I do use the SmartMusic program, and Sibelius cannot create files 
for that. That is a big minus in my book. I kind of have a love/hate 
relationship with SmartMusic, but generally, it is a great program with 
some annoying bugs.


dhbailey wrote:
Sibelius 5 has been announced, and final barrier to many Finale users 
has fallen.  They now have their version of  scroll-view, called 
Panorama.


For many of us, that has been a major sticking point in converting our 
workflow to Sibelius, and with this new release, scheduled to ship at 
the end of this month, there may be a new mass-exodus from Finale to 
Sibelius.


There are other enhancements, including Kontakt2 with a whole new bank 
of sounds which has been built from several soundbanks including GPO, 
so that there will apparently be a more complete instrument list than 
GPO-Finale has, included in the program.  For the past year, 
GPO-Sibelius was an extra-cost add-on.  There are advanced page layout 
capabilities, and a lot more, including a sort of sketchpad capability 
where you can sketch out a motif or a harmony or something and call it 
up for copy/paste.  No need to resort to additional files for the 
ideas while working on a score.  The list of new features is at the 
sibelius web-site, and I hope that the MakeMusic management is 
visiting there right now and seeing how a notation company ought to 
take its users more seriously.


I'm not advocating anybody jump ship from Finale to Sibelius, but I 
wanted people on this list to know about the new features, which make 
Sibelius an even stronger competitor against Finale.


My son has used Finale at home and Sibelius at school (admittedly only 
version 3) and he vastly prefers Sibelius.  He's heading off to 
college in the fall as a music-ed major, so he'll be buying Sibelius 
to use there, and you can bet that he will be touting it to fellow 
music majors who might not be as computer literate as he is and also 
to the students he will eventually teach when he graduates.  (where 
did I go wrong? -- actually I didn't, Finale did.)


Sibelius has had linked score/parts since version 4, and they have 
some of the same problems that Finale's version has, but there has 
been a lot less complaining  on the Sibelius list than on the Finale 
list here.


AND, one of the biggest points in Sibelius' favor that MakeMusic must 
finally address -- version 4 introduced the capability to save current 
version files in earlier formats, and that is continuing with version 
5.  So there is no need for people to be forced to upgrade, and they 
can still share files and edit things and send them back.  Admittedly 
a Sib4 file, with linked score/parts, if saved as version3 will lose 
the linked score/parts capability, but at least it can be shared 
without the need for add-on utilities or forced upgrades.


If MakeMusic doesn't do something fast (such as addressing 
long-standing bugs, taking users' requests for "save as earlier 
version" capabilities, and actually appearing to care about us) it 
will lose an even larger share of the notation software market.







___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[David W. Fenton]

On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:38, Kim Patrick Clow wrote:

> Three months ago, I found a bug that Sibelius has with Music XML (yah,
> I'm of the camp that got feed up with Finale and am migrating to
> Sibelius).  Daniel Spreadbury, who works for Sibelius saw my message
> on the list about my troubles, asked me for the sample files, and
> wrote back within a day that I had indeed found a major bug. After a
> lengthy apology and suggested work arounds, he promised me the bug
> would be addressed immediately in the newer version of Sibelius.

In my opinion, Daniel Spreadbury is Sibelius's greatest asset. When 
Sibelius 4 came out, he and I had a long correspondence about a 
number of issues. He takes Finale quite seriously (and knows Finale 
*very* well), and was completely open and honest in acknowledging 
where Finale was superior to Sibelius.

It seems to me like this release of Sibelius is designed as a Finale-
killer, i.e., that its feature set is mostly designed to rectify a 
large number of areas where Sibelius was a hostile environment for 
Finale users.

Now, the only principle of successful market share enhancement that 
they need to incorporate is ease of saving Sibelius files back to 
Finale. That's the secret -- if you can switch without feeling locked 
in, then there is no downside to trying it out. With Dolet, that's 
getting closer and closer to reality, it seems to me.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[David W. Fenton]

On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:13, Christopher Smith wrote:

> the clipboard for music seems  
> moderately interesting, 

Seems pretty easy to implement, though I'm not sure why. I usually 
just use scratch staves within the same file.

> cut-and-paste to Word for musical examples 
> certainly saves some fudging around, 

If the graphic export in Finale supported something other than TIFF 
for bitmapped export, it would be a lot easier. Sibelius added PNG 
export, and if Finale added that, it would then be *very* easy to 
implement cut and paste of graphics into other apps. 

> and the possibilities for 
> different sound libraries for playback seems easier than Finale, 

It doesn't say, though, if you can mix GPO with other synthesizers.



-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[David W. Fenton]

On 8 Jun 2007 at 8:13, Christopher Smith wrote:

> On  
> the plus side for Sib, "Paste as cue" seems to save a mouse click or 
> two over running a plugin in Finale

Reading between the lines of other features that impinge on cues 
notes, it seems like it's implemented in a way that works with linked 
parts. That's much bigger than just saving a mouse click.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced ...

[shirling & neueweise]

if you only like humour that is good and clean, don't bother clicking here:


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

RE: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had betterstartcoming up with significant improvements!

[Owain Sutton]

> 
> > well, just because they have new features doesn't mean they 
> are taking 
> > its
> > users more seriously.  there have are also been responses from the 
> > brothers which amount to, "well, we think that not many 
> people would 
> > really use that, and you can do it with a workaround anyways, so..."
> 
> When I made a concerted attempt to assess Sibelius last year 
> I found the 
> biggest difference is that Finale almost always does have a 
> workaround (or 
> three) while Sibelius just cannot do things that I need in any way.
> 
> Richard 
> 


This is similar to the experience of a number of people I know (or know
of) who have fairly complex requirements.  When I'm asked advice about
choosing software, I sum up the differences as 'Sibelius does 95% of
things better or more easily, but to do the other 5% at all you need
Finale'.  Trivial, I know (and maybe it's 99%, or 80%, I don't know),
but for most people, the best option is Sibelius.

Owain


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[shirling & neueweise]

Well, isn't it obvious?


what, that the marketing for sib5 is modelled after that of fin04/06? 
yeah.  check out the list of  features on the sib site.  more 
than half are upgrades to anadequacies in the programme or bug fixes, 
and then for good measure, the final "feature" is "Various bugs 
fixed".


but they don't offer a water bottle, so i'm not jumping ship for sib5.

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[shirling & neueweise]

well, just because they have new features doesn't mean they are
taking its users more seriously.


You know, this is just so off the mark on this point I had to reply.


it's not off the mark at all.  i didn't say sibelius wasn't taking 
some users in the case of major bugs seriously; i said that using new 
features so simply as proof of sibelius taking its users seriously 
was not a sound argument.


I don't ever recall anyone posting similiar interactions with 
MakeMusic about any of their buggy software, much less correcting it.


you might want to look through the archives; numerous people have 
posted interactions with MM, and MM has in some cases made a serious 
attempt to resolve the issues.  file overwriting is the one that 
springs immediately to mind as a major bug MM was actively attempting 
to deal with.


Meanwhile, what older version do you have to use with Finale to get 
hyphenation to work properly??


i think you are reading my post as pro-finale, which it wasn't at all.

--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Kim Patrick Clow]

shirling & neueweise <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


well, just because they have new features doesn't mean they are
taking its users more seriously.



You know, this is just so off the mark on this point I had to reply.


Three months ago, I found a bug that Sibelius has with Music XML (yah,
I'm of the camp that got feed up with Finale and am migrating to
Sibelius).  Daniel Spreadbury, who works for Sibelius saw my message
on the list about my troubles, asked me for the sample files, and
wrote back within a day that I had indeed found a major bug. After a
lengthy apology and suggested work arounds, he promised me the bug
would be addressed immediately in the newer version of Sibelius.

I don't ever recall anyone posting similiar interactions with
MakeMusic about any of their buggy software, much less correcting it.
Meanwhile, what older version do you have to use with Finale to get
hyphenation to work properly??

Have a great day
Kim Patrick Clow
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had betterstart coming up with significant improvements!

[Richard Yates]

well, just because they have new features doesn't mean they are taking its 
users more seriously.  there have are also been responses from the 
brothers which amount to, "well, we think that not many people would 
really use that, and you can do it with a workaround anyways, so..."


When I made a concerted attempt to assess Sibelius last year I found the 
biggest difference is that Finale almost always does have a workaround (or 
three) while Sibelius just cannot do things that I need in any way.


Richard 


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 8, 2007, at 7:36 AM, shirling & neueweise wrote:



Sibelius has had linked score/parts since version 4, and they have  
some of the same problems that Finale's version has, but there has  
been a lot less complaining  on the Sibelius list than on the  
Finale list here.


you know i am very critical of all the anadequacies in many  
features implemented in finale, but as far as i have seen, finale's  
implementation of linked parts is more complete and closer to a  
proper feature than sibelius.  i also get the impression that the  
sibelius list isn't quite as vocal about "issues" as here.


Well, isn't it obvious? We have MUCH higher expectations and  
requirements from our software than Sibelius users generally do.  
Would any of us have put up with (reading from Sibelius' site about  
features just now implemented):


Not being able to create cues easily.

Not being able to change instruments in the same staff.

Not being able to insert blank pages.

Not being able to change page margins inside the same document.

not being able to edit bar numbers, page numbers, or rehearsal marks.

Not having the instrument change clef to the correct one when viewing  
in transposed mode (this one has caught many of my students!)


Not having the music transpose when you change key (and we even have  
the option of NOT changing the music)


Okay I'm getting tired, and I don't see the end to this list yet. On  
the plus side for Sib, "Paste as cue" seems to save a mouse click or  
two over running a plugin in Finale, the clipboard for music seems  
moderately interesting, cut-and-paste to Word for musical examples  
certainly saves some fudging around, and the possibilities for  
different sound libraries for playback seems easier than Finale, but  
otherwise I'd rather have the Finale features.


Christopher



___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[shirling & neueweise]

Sibelius 5 has been announced


goood!

sibelius web-site, and I hope that the MakeMusic management is 
visiting there right now and seeing how a notation company ought to 
take its users more seriously.


well, just because they have new features doesn't mean they are 
taking its users more seriously.  there have are also been responses 
from the brothers which amount to, "well, we think that not many 
people would really use that, and you can do it with a workaround 
anyways, so..."


Sibelius has had linked score/parts since version 4, and they have 
some of the same problems that Finale's version has, but there has 
been a lot less complaining  on the Sibelius list than on the Finale 
list here.


you know i am very critical of all the anadequacies in many features 
implemented in finale, but as far as i have seen, finale's 
implementation of linked parts is more complete and closer to a 
proper feature than sibelius.  i also get the impression that the 
sibelius list isn't quite as vocal about "issues" as here.


If MakeMusic doesn't do something fast (such as addressing 
long-standing bugs, taking users' requests for "save as earlier 
version" capabilities, and actually appearing to care about us) it 
will lose an even larger share of the notation software market.


i thought they had already learned their lesson with the 2006 
round... that a water bottle cannot by itself quench the thirst of 
its users.


--

shirling & neueweise ... new music publishers
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Re: [Finale] Sibelius 5 announced

[Christopher Smith]

On Jun 8, 2007, at 3:47 AM, Johannes Gebauer wrote:

Sibelius 5 has been announced. Looking at the new features briefly,  
I see they have added easy cue notes. Perhaps finally Finale will  
include such, too? I have been asking for it for years.


Huh? In the Plugins menu under Scoring and Arranging you have Add Cue  
Notes, which is just a fewer-featured example of TG Tools Parts>Add  
Cue Notes. What's the difference?


And Sibelius has finally added Scroll View (called Panorama), the  
equivalent of Staff Styles (for instrument changes), made the code  
Universal Binary, allowed advanced page layout, allowed Plugins to be  
undoable in short, it seems for once to be playing catchup with  
Finale, rather than vice-versa!


Christopher

(now, if only Finale had fewer bugs...)


___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Sibelius 5 has been announced and Finale had better start coming up with significant improvements!

[dhbailey]

Sibelius 5 has been announced, and final barrier to many Finale users 
has fallen.  They now have their version of  scroll-view, called Panorama.


For many of us, that has been a major sticking point in converting our 
workflow to Sibelius, and with this new release, scheduled to ship at 
the end of this month, there may be a new mass-exodus from Finale to 
Sibelius.


There are other enhancements, including Kontakt2 with a whole new bank 
of sounds which has been built from several soundbanks including GPO, so 
that there will apparently be a more complete instrument list than 
GPO-Finale has, included in the program.  For the past year, 
GPO-Sibelius was an extra-cost add-on.  There are advanced page layout 
capabilities, and a lot more, including a sort of sketchpad capability 
where you can sketch out a motif or a harmony or something and call it 
up for copy/paste.  No need to resort to additional files for the ideas 
while working on a score.  The list of new features is at the sibelius 
web-site, and I hope that the MakeMusic management is visiting there 
right now and seeing how a notation company ought to take its users more 
seriously.


I'm not advocating anybody jump ship from Finale to Sibelius, but I 
wanted people on this list to know about the new features, which make 
Sibelius an even stronger competitor against Finale.


My son has used Finale at home and Sibelius at school (admittedly only 
version 3) and he vastly prefers Sibelius.  He's heading off to college 
in the fall as a music-ed major, so he'll be buying Sibelius to use 
there, and you can bet that he will be touting it to fellow music majors 
who might not be as computer literate as he is and also to the students 
he will eventually teach when he graduates.  (where did I go wrong? -- 
actually I didn't, Finale did.)


Sibelius has had linked score/parts since version 4, and they have some 
of the same problems that Finale's version has, but there has been a lot 
less complaining  on the Sibelius list than on the Finale list here.


AND, one of the biggest points in Sibelius' favor that MakeMusic must 
finally address -- version 4 introduced the capability to save current 
version files in earlier formats, and that is continuing with version 5. 
 So there is no need for people to be forced to upgrade, and they can 
still share files and edit things and send them back.  Admittedly a Sib4 
file, with linked score/parts, if saved as version3 will lose the linked 
score/parts capability, but at least it can be shared without the need 
for add-on utilities or forced upgrades.


If MakeMusic doesn't do something fast (such as addressing long-standing 
bugs, taking users' requests for "save as earlier version" capabilities, 
and actually appearing to care about us) it will lose an even larger 
share of the notation software market.





--
David H. Bailey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

[Finale] Sibelius 5 - the link

[Johannes Gebauer]

http://www.sibelius.com/products/sibelius/5/index.html

Johannes
--
http://www.musikmanufaktur.com
http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale