Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Software patents vs the economy

[Fabrizio Giudici]

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On 9/5/10 20:38 , Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
> Fabrizio, asking for reform might be a good idea, but reform to
> _WHAT_? I haven't seen any proposal that makes a decent case that
> implementing it would lead to a patent law system we can all be
> reasonably happy with (i.e. happier than foregoing software
> patents altogether).

I suppose that's because all people reckoning that the system is
flawed are screaming about quitting patents, rather than reforming
them :-)

My simplest proposal? A very short expiration term. I think that a
reasonable number should come out from a deeper analysis that I'm not
able to do, but for the sake of discussion I'd say two years. A
software patents would be enforced for two years, giving plenty of
chances for the patent holder to have a ROI, but opening to the
competition pretty soon.

- -- 
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
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[The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Casper Bang]

> Dont confuse my argument, i just find Google's stance hypocritical. When
> they said its an attack on open source, they really meant its an attack on
> their ability to get a free ride...

You can not copyright or patent a syntax, and the syntax is ALL Google
is borrowing. Sun had nothing that competed with Android so the whole
attack argument is moot, unless you consider smashing a mosquito for
an attack. Oracle is making a very calculated move which people are
still trying to figure out, but whatever the end game, you can not
claim that it's based on what Google and Android "took from Sun". It
sounds to me as if that's what you are claiming.

> In the end, they decided to get fancy and we have the
> outcome that we are all witnessing today.

Again, Sun had nothing to match the requirements of a modern smart
phone environment so I am not sure what the "fancy" thing is you refer
to. It is a smart thing to use a syntax that everyone is familiar
with, as well as the popular Apache libraries (also not officially
Java). But humor me here, would you think otherwise of Google had they
adopted say the C# syntax and Mono libs? Would that leave Sun or
Oracle in any better shape?

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

Firstly my argument was not about technicalities. Googles statement that it
was an attack on open source was hypocritical because they want to gain from
open source and took advantage of "free" java but when it was their turn to
cough up the cash they did everything but. Im not sure if its business or an
American thing but it seems you forget to about being human which is
sometimes mostly about doing the right thing regardless of what the law
says. Overall most companies forget that simple fact. All im saying is given
all the business benefits and money they made and hope to make from java and
Android, it was their turn to chip and help the community. In this case like
I said before they should have been ebenevolent and bought Sun.

Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and never
even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
disappointing.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

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On 9/7/10 10:10 , Miroslav Pokorny wrote:
>
> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash
> and never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but
> its overall, its disappointing.
>
I don't disagree on the whole, but the problem here is clearly
separating the legal vs moral spheres. When we talk about individuals,
it might make sense of talking of moral. When we talk about
corporates, it doesn't. I find pretty natural for each corporate
(especially the larger ones) to push the limit of what they can do as
far as they get to the legal boundary. It's certainly not only an
"american" thing. I don't argue that, and that's for this reason that
I think that, on the whole, there's no big difference between Oracle
and Google. In other words, it's business. Of course, we're free to
apply moral categories to corporates, but it sounds pretty useless to
me, as everybody has got his own personal perspective (and one might
always recall that corporates have got a _moral_ obligation to
increase the ROI of stock holders as much as they can).

That's why I prefer to think of the ongoing war merely in terms of
what it could bring, of positive or negative, to me and the community.

- -- 
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
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[The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Casper Bang]

On Sep 7, 10:10 am, Miroslav Pokorny 
wrote:
> Firstly my argument was not about technicalities.

We are engineers, technicalities is what we do... otherwise we'd be
priests.

> Googles statement that it
> was an attack on open source was hypocritical because they want to gain from
> open source and took advantage of "free" java but when it was their turn to
> cough up the cash they did everything but.

What cash? You can not expect Google to have bought Sun just because
they happen to use some of their open source technology. I could argue
it would make more sense if SpringSource had bought Sun but that's
still irrelevant. Google is not religious about what they use and many
of us sees that as freedom to innovate and pushing the art forward,
i.e. as they do with many other things such as GWT.

> Im not sure if its business or an
> American thing but it seems you forget to about being human which is
> sometimes mostly about doing the right thing regardless of what the law
> says.

Fabrizio already covered this nicely.

> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and never
> even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
> disappointing.

We all build upon one another. The JDK also ships with it's share of
NIH tech, i.e. zlib powers the stuff within java.util.zip.*
You may be disappointed over Google not having bought Sun, but get
over it - that's business and driven by powers and interests way
beyond whatever moral standards you try to extrapolate.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

@Casper
This will be my last comment on this. You have conveniently ignored the
overall context of my statements.

re/ GWT
GWT is even more interesting given its changes. Its very much an different
take on the java platform, its great and all makes sense but for legal types
they might cry about what its done to the java brand. Packages like
java.iohad to go after all they dont make sense in a browser, but
removing
reflection while perfectly understandable is an alteration to what is
standard java...

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Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[Glenn Bech]

>And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to 
>Scala from Java at this point.
>Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I am a 
>developer and I like it' mentality.

Amen! The best thing for producitivity is to stick in one technology,
get to know it well, and use it project after project.
I often see no, or little cost/benefit analysis when adopting new
frameworks or technology.

I've never seen a team deliver value faster than on a stack of Struts
1, Hibernate 3 and Jetty/Tomcat.

On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Liam Knox  wrote:
> What your are describing is still a mix and match suite of technologies that
> when meshed together you can sort of solve some things in a painful way.
> No attempt has really been made to provide a concise expression of these
> concerns and therefore base a better platform to cover these
> That is my point. No SQL, WebServices, REST, SOAP etc, etc, ok what new
> acronyms shall we have next year?
> Lets have another one for persistence, another one for remoting , blah,
> blah, bloody blah. Its all very disparate and desperate
> This has been going on since the 70's and have we really made a lot of
> progress?  Really are WebServices so fantastic compared to Corba?  A
> technical revolution that makes even Einstein seem kind thick doesn't it ?
>
> As for you contention on concurrency. I would much rather a platform that
> could utilize concurrency intelligently, as with other resource
> I kind of think GC's are good so now why not invest more in proving more
> seemless concurrency utilization
> And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to
> Scala from Java at this point.
> Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I am
> a developer and I like it' mentality.
>
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Kevin Wright 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 29 August 2010 13:19, Liam Knox  wrote:
>>>
>>> I did not define any problem.
>>> Look at the history here. Gosling etc. made it very, very clear,
>>> definitive, decisions in inventing Java. OS neutrality, pointers, memory,
>>> what to leave out.  I maybe wrong also but I remember a key employee
>>> resigning based on supporting C++ on N Unix variants also played a part.
>>> And this basically states why Java was successful.  Java took 2 problems,
>>> OS dependence and Memory(pointer) management.
>>> These were massive.  Java is also more easy/less complex the C++.
>>> So whats next ?
>>> Define the issues we still have.
>>> 1. Persistence has not evolved for the last 30 years. The mentality is
>>> still some loose binding that is not easy to develop to. SQL vs OO mess
>>
>> Although... grid computing and "application fabrics" (e.g. terracotta)
>> have offered ways no neatly sidestep persistence in many cases.  The NoSQL
>> movement also has a great deal to offer.
>> In the sense that systems like MUMPS have exposed similar concepts for
>> years then, yes, it hasn't evolved all that much!
>>
>>>
>>> 2. Remoting. We are in no better shape than with Corba. Look at the
>>> WebServices spec, is that better than Corba?
>>
>> WebServices, as in SOAP?
>> Totally, just as with Corba, the standard has been pushed around and abuse
>> by corporations hoping to turn it into anything but a commodity.  Margins
>> are so much higher if you can arrange for vendor lock-in.
>> REST, on the other hand, I think is really showing some promise as an open
>> standard.
>>
>>>
>>> 3. Concurrency. Actors in Scala? Fantastic. But why cant a VM understand
>>> a loop that can be executed in parallel?
>>
>> In a word: "purity"
>> While it's possible for a function to have side-effects (i.e. it does
>> something other that transform its input to its output), then the compiler
>> can never be certain that one iteration of a loop isn't somehow dependant on
>> the side effects of a previous iteration, and so cannot optimise.
>> Consider one such classic side effect, logging to the console.  Given a
>> list of integers, how could you possibly `println` them all in parallel?
>> This is *the* issue that myself and other Scala/FP advocates have been
>> tearing our hair out to explain, and is the reason why "FP is better for
>> concurrency".  Only if you have pure (without side-effects) first-class
>> functions and work with immutable objects can you be sure that a "loop" is
>> 100% safe to execute in parallel.  Only it's not a loop any more, it's just
>> a mapping from one collection to another collection, and you've shifted from
>> an imperative paradigm to a declarative one.
>>
>>>
>>> I don't think we are talking about noddy improvements in semantics or
>>> conciseness like Scala promotes.
>>> Scala adds nothing to Java in the real world, compared to a better
>>> persistence idiom.
>>
>> Scala adds FP to Java, and does it more completely and more effectively
>> than the JDK7 closures proposal.  Mostly because it doesn't have to drag the
>> cumbersome weight of backwar

[The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Casper Bang]

> This will be my last comment on this. You have conveniently ignored the
> overall context of my statements.

Fair enough, I fail to see what I ignored but we can end it here. GWT
is not a different take on a Java platform, it's an emulation layer
which, once again, allows people familiar with the Java syntax of
building RIA's. If you approach the technology as being a JSE-in-a-
browser you will get disappointed. However if you see it as a pendent
to similar approaches i.e. Python's Pyjamas [http://pyjs.org/] you'll
get pleasantly surprised that you can draw on your existing knowledge
in spite of targeting a scriptable browser.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[twitter.com/nfma]

can you beat this with your stack? ;-)

http://www.rubyinside.com/obie-fernandezs-hashrocket-builds-your-web-app-in-3-days-698.html

On 7 September 2010 13:12, Glenn Bech  wrote:

> >And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to
> Scala from Java at this point.
> >Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I
> am a developer and I like it' mentality.
>
> Amen! The best thing for producitivity is to stick in one technology,
> get to know it well, and use it project after project.
> I often see no, or little cost/benefit analysis when adopting new
> frameworks or technology.
>
> I've never seen a team deliver value faster than on a stack of Struts
> 1, Hibernate 3 and Jetty/Tomcat.
>
> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Liam Knox  wrote:
> > What your are describing is still a mix and match suite of technologies
> that
> > when meshed together you can sort of solve some things in a painful way.
> > No attempt has really been made to provide a concise expression of these
> > concerns and therefore base a better platform to cover these
> > That is my point. No SQL, WebServices, REST, SOAP etc, etc, ok what new
> > acronyms shall we have next year?
> > Lets have another one for persistence, another one for remoting , blah,
> > blah, bloody blah. Its all very disparate and desperate
> > This has been going on since the 70's and have we really made a lot of
> > progress?  Really are WebServices so fantastic compared to Corba?  A
> > technical revolution that makes even Einstein seem kind thick doesn't it
> ?
> >
> > As for you contention on concurrency. I would much rather a platform that
> > could utilize concurrency intelligently, as with other resource
> > I kind of think GC's are good so now why not invest more in proving more
> > seemless concurrency utilization
> > And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to
> > Scala from Java at this point.
> > Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I
> am
> > a developer and I like it' mentality.
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Kevin Wright  >
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 29 August 2010 13:19, Liam Knox  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I did not define any problem.
> >>> Look at the history here. Gosling etc. made it very, very clear,
> >>> definitive, decisions in inventing Java. OS neutrality, pointers,
> memory,
> >>> what to leave out.  I maybe wrong also but I remember a key employee
> >>> resigning based on supporting C++ on N Unix variants also played a
> part.
> >>> And this basically states why Java was successful.  Java took 2
> problems,
> >>> OS dependence and Memory(pointer) management.
> >>> These were massive.  Java is also more easy/less complex the C++.
> >>> So whats next ?
> >>> Define the issues we still have.
> >>> 1. Persistence has not evolved for the last 30 years. The mentality is
> >>> still some loose binding that is not easy to develop to. SQL vs OO mess
> >>
> >> Although... grid computing and "application fabrics" (e.g. terracotta)
> >> have offered ways no neatly sidestep persistence in many cases.  The
> NoSQL
> >> movement also has a great deal to offer.
> >> In the sense that systems like MUMPS have exposed similar concepts for
> >> years then, yes, it hasn't evolved all that much!
> >>
> >>>
> >>> 2. Remoting. We are in no better shape than with Corba. Look at the
> >>> WebServices spec, is that better than Corba?
> >>
> >> WebServices, as in SOAP?
> >> Totally, just as with Corba, the standard has been pushed around and
> abuse
> >> by corporations hoping to turn it into anything but a commodity.
>  Margins
> >> are so much higher if you can arrange for vendor lock-in.
> >> REST, on the other hand, I think is really showing some promise as an
> open
> >> standard.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> 3. Concurrency. Actors in Scala? Fantastic. But why cant a VM
> understand
> >>> a loop that can be executed in parallel?
> >>
> >> In a word: "purity"
> >> While it's possible for a function to have side-effects (i.e. it does
> >> something other that transform its input to its output), then the
> compiler
> >> can never be certain that one iteration of a loop isn't somehow
> dependant on
> >> the side effects of a previous iteration, and so cannot optimise.
> >> Consider one such classic side effect, logging to the console.  Given a
> >> list of integers, how could you possibly `println` them all in parallel?
> >> This is *the* issue that myself and other Scala/FP advocates have been
> >> tearing our hair out to explain, and is the reason why "FP is better for
> >> concurrency".  Only if you have pure (without side-effects) first-class
> >> functions and work with immutable objects can you be sure that a "loop"
> is
> >> 100% safe to execute in parallel.  Only it's not a loop any more, it's
> just
> >> a mapping from one collection to another collection, and you've shifted
> from
> >> an imperative paradigm to a declarative one.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>

[The Java Posse] Re: Software patents vs the economy

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

Lots of people who are complaining about software patent law are not
screaming for their total abolishments. I might, but only because I've
long held the opinion that reform was in order, but every idea I've
read or come up with myself has been shot full of holes in short
order. I've concluded that there's no way to get it right, so
abolishment is simpler all around, and a much clearer goal than
nebulous, ill defined, "reform".

For example, a 2 year expiration term doesn't really help all that
much. The  few patents that most would agree are novel and thus, if
anything is, worthy of legal protection, do not generally become
market feasible for a year or two. So... by the time the product has
passed the "early adopter" phase and is starting to hit the
mainstream, which, by the way, is when you can _start_ earning money
in earnest, the patent law protection runs out. Note also that by
squeezing the patent term, that $60,000 cost associated with getting
one the right way is starting to be an awfully large number, if you've
got only 2 years to turn it around.

Meanwhile, the patents we all love to bash, such as amazon one-click,
would be filed and become annoying right away. In many ways, the mere
fact that a patent causes significant economic effect within 2 years
is almost 100% equal to a patent NOT being particularly novel. In
fact, it is trivial to demonstrate that a patent on something that's
already existed is likely to pay off within those 2 years, because a
smaller company does not want to gamble on going to court to get the
patent revoked.


If you had to give me a choice: Current law, or, reduce term to two
years, I'd definitely go for the two years. But only because it gets
us closer to total abolishment. Note that the above analysis, if you
agree with it, suggests that there exists no magic "patents last THIS
long" number that works. At best there's a local maximum (which I'm
fairly sure would still mean the law does more harm than good), but,
because the technology world moves very quickly, this would definitely
be a moving target. Even we hypothesize that this local maximum does
more good than harm, how would you propose the law is set up so that
it tracks this local maximum appropriately? Having to do a million man
march in washington every 15 years to fix the law because it is
incapable of adjusting itself does not sound like a solid plan.

On Sep 7, 9:04 am, Fabrizio Giudici 
wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 9/5/10 20:38 , Reinier Zwitserloot wrote:
>
> > Fabrizio, asking for reform might be a good idea, but reform to
> > _WHAT_? I haven't seen any proposal that makes a decent case that
> > implementing it would lead to a patent law system we can all be
> > reasonably happy with (i.e. happier than foregoing software
> > patents altogether).
>
> I suppose that's because all people reckoning that the system is
> flawed are screaming about quitting patents, rather than reforming
> them :-)
>
> My simplest proposal? A very short expiration term. I think that a
> reasonable number should come out from a deeper analysis that I'm not
> able to do, but for the sake of discussion I'd say two years. A
> software patents would be enforced for two years, giving plenty of
> chances for the patent holder to have a ROI, but opening to the
> competition pretty soon.
>
> - --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici -www.tidalwave.it/people
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
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> =i/Ka
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[The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

Oh, no question. Google is milking the "Whoa, what the heck is oracle
doing here" angle as much as they can, and they are definitely
grandstanding to do it. But why shouldn't they? If ever the argument
"corporations do whatever they need to do to earn money" holds, it
holds here. Google understands the vagaries of the wider internet tech
community exactly in the way Oracle does not.

On Sep 7, 2:14 am, Michael Neale  wrote:
> Not disputing the "attack" on open source angle - but Oracle are
> "filing a lawsuit" against open source, as said by Josh 
> Bloch:http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-javaone.html
>
> Google are adding to the fud by talking like this, and a lot of this
> is grandstanding to get the development community (more) onside with
> google. I think there are no good guys in this sorry tale.
>
> On Sep 7, 8:33 am, Reinier Zwitserloot  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Might just be two euro-cents, but, spot on.
>
> > I believe the Apache Harmony TCK thing is in regards to the technical
> > side of it: Apache Harmony does pass the actual TCK, at least it is
> > rumoured to do so, as in all the test cases pass. It is not, however,
> > officially a recipient of the official TCK seal of approval and it has
> > gained no legal rights or responsibilities for passing it.
>
> > The (ridiculous) broadness of these patents, along with the complete
> > silence in regards to Oracle's intentions here, means it IS an attack
> > on open source, and on developers around the world in general (because
> > it opens the door to just about any language being sued by oracle). I
> > understand that this feels rather broad, and that silence is the
> > prudent legal course, but none of that changes the fact that the FOSS
> > community, and really developers in general, cannot take this as
> > anything but a direct attack on their future. To do otherwise is to
> > presume Oracle is merely using this as a convenient stick to beat
> > google with, and would never use them anywhere else. Why would anyone
> > make that assumption?
>
> > Oracle should have thought the backlash through a lot more than they
> > have. It is also entirely unclear what oracle's agenda is here; if it
> > is merely a bunch of licensing dosh, they would have filed in East
> > Texas. They haven't. Lack of information is understandably making
> > everyone rather upset and on edge. Oracle can't very well claim they
> > didn't see that coming. Or, well, they can, but if so, their PR /
> > legal team should get a stern talking to for dropping the ball like
> > this. How could they not have seen this fallout coming?
>
> > On Sep 6, 7:19 pm, BoD  wrote:
>
> > > Excellent episode as always :)
>
> > > 1/ At some point Joe and also Dick if I'm not mistaken say that Google
> > > shouldn't say that the law suit is against Open Source and that saying
> > > so is purely a PR move.
> > > But since Android is based on the Apache Harmony Project, don't you
> > > think it *is* fair to say that therefore, attacking Android is also
> > > attacking Apache Harmony? (And thus, "the Open Source community"?)
> > > IANAL but it seems that at least some of the patents they claim
> > > concern the 'Harmony' part of Android - and so, if they win the law
> > > suit, what does it mean for Harmony?
>
> > > 2/ At some point it was said that the Apache Harmony Project passed
> > > the SE TCK (that it is certified Java SE), but not the ME TCK because
> > > of the Field of Use restriction.
> > > But if I understand correctly (feel free to correct me) Harmony didn't
> > > pass the Java SE 5 TCK 
> > > (cf:http://www.apache.org/jcp/sunopenletterfaq.html)
>
> > > 3/ At some point it was said that what Google did was no different
> > > from what Microsoft did (re. the 1997 Sun vs Microsoft case).
> > > But this *was* different, the 1997 lawsuit was about "trademark
> > > infringement, false advertising, breach of contract, unfair
> > > competition, interference with prospective economic advantage, and
> > > inducing breach of contract".
> > > Basically Microsoft called their version of Java "Java" and they
> > > didn't have the right to do so (by contract).
> > > But - and I think Dick knows this all too well ;) - Google made sure
> > > to be very careful to not call their version "Java". And so all they
> > > could find was silly (imho) patents claims (actually this case is also
> > > a Copyright one but it seems we don't know much details about this
> > > part...)
>
> > > Just my two euro-cents ;)
>
> > > BoD

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[The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Reinier Zwitserloot]

How is increasing the general argument for any would-be programmer to
learn java in any way or form "a free ride"?

If you follow lambda-dev and friends it becomes rather obvious that
the amount of resources oracle pours into freely available java stuff
is quite modest.

What, exactly, is google "stealing" from oracle here? Java-the-
language? That was some random silly syntax slapped together by
Gosling and friends back in the day as an afterthought. It's not
novel, genius, or a big deal. Java as a platform has been successful
because of everything but the language, but those are exactly the
things google has NOT taken: They have NOT taken the standard library
(they took harmony). They've NOT taken the novel, genius, serious
investment JVM which its amazing ability to run code quickly. They
developed all that themselves.

Sure, google is grandstanding. But at the end of the day, they owe Sun
or Oracle bupkis.

On Sep 7, 7:01 am, Miroslav Pokorny 
wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Casper Bang  wrote:
> > On Sep 7, 2:31 am, Miroslav Pokorny 
> > wrote:
> > > In the end i am more disappointed in Google than Oracle. I know I got a
> > good
> > > deal and lot of gifts from Sun and I did not help contribute my bit to
> > keep
> > > their guardianship of Java going by sponsoring or contributing back to
> > their
> > > business. I suppose I am one of the many millions of "parasites" who is
> > now
> > > complaining because some worry the "free" ride may be over.
>
> > Ah but then you can be happy that now you can contribute back by
> > buying very expensive Oracle database licences. Sun's failure to
> > capitalize is not necessarily tied to Java being open source. Are
> > there really any software shops who would not be willing to pay for
> > state-of-the-art tools, good documentation etc., I doubt it. In any
> > even, Sun maintained that the Java side was profitable.
>
> Dont confuse my argument, i just find Google's stance hypocritical. When
> they said its an attack on open source, they really meant its an attack on
> their ability to get a free ride...
>
> > >If Google really
> > > loved Open Source why didnt they do the benevolent thing and just buy and
> > > sponsor Java development into the future, when they had the opportunity.
>
> > That's what many of us hoped, primarily because Google seems to have
> > the drive and the money to move the art forward.
>
> > > Truth be told they tried to be smart playing legal with lots of laywers
> > and
> > > know its come back to bite them.
>
> > Lots of lawyers? Could you explain?
>
> Google have always been careful with their labelling and marketting of
> Android. It is quite obvious that this approach had a lot of legal
> consultation and advice from business types who wished to follow this path
> rather than just buying Sun. As mentioned in the podcast, they knew that a
> questioning of this would occur sometime in the future, it was just a
> question of when. In the end, they decided to get fancy and we have the
> outcome that we are all witnessing today.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > They tried to be cheap and avoid
> > > contributing back to the community by coughing up the one thing the
> > > community or Sun really needed - the cash. Its not as if Google dont have
> > > the money, they always seem to have money and millions of it to buy some
> > > advertising related company, aka Double click.
>
> > I don't think Google owes Sun, they may piggyback of the language
> > syntax but 1) Oracle has nothing in their portfolio that rivals
> > Android and 2) for many years Google have indeed contributed back by
> > means of JSR's and experts like Bloch, Gafter etc. You insinuate they
> > tried to be cheap, albeit by all accounts the design behind Android
> > was primarily driven by technical and economical considerations. It's
> > possible we don't know the full story, Fabrizio Giudici among others
> > have hinted at that. Hopefully we will know soon.
>
> Josh, Neal etc are all brilliant, but one cannot compare $7B to whatever
> contributions and efforts they extend.
>
> > If Java was truly open,
> > we would not even be talking about this parenting thing, we would be
> > talking about our brothers and sisters in the community.
>
> Maybe so, thats another argument for another day, but my original reply was
> to the label "this is an attach on open source".
>
> It Oracle did not buy Sun, and nobody bought it in the end, what else could
> be said of those who made billions using Java, its community and yet in its
> time of need did not want to be benevolent ? Open Source is about people,
> companies giving and taking, sometimes we give a library, or patch here and
> there. Bigger entities gain considerably more from open source by
> definition, because they benefit from libraries and make more incoming. The
> same argument can be said of taxation responsibilities, we all share the
> benefits of government and services, we might not like it but dodgying tax
> does not help the 

Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[Kevin Wright]

This is hardly a new argument!

Thankfully, there a people around who *are* willing to take risks and
believe in the potential  for improvement.

The world is littered with stories of technologies that were ahead of
their time.  Just look at the history of aviation, and how Frank
Whittle had to develop the jet engine despite a lack of military
funding.  The people who could have helped found it impossible to
imagine that you could improve on something like the Spitfire.

Thankfully for us, they were wrong.


On Tuesday, September 7, 2010, Glenn Bech  wrote:
>>And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to 
>>Scala from Java at this point.
>>Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I am 
>>a developer and I like it' mentality.
>
> Amen! The best thing for producitivity is to stick in one technology,
> get to know it well, and use it project after project.
> I often see no, or little cost/benefit analysis when adopting new
> frameworks or technology.
>
> I've never seen a team deliver value faster than on a stack of Struts
> 1, Hibernate 3 and Jetty/Tomcat.
>
> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Liam Knox  wrote:
>> What your are describing is still a mix and match suite of technologies that
>> when meshed together you can sort of solve some things in a painful way.
>> No attempt has really been made to provide a concise expression of these
>> concerns and therefore base a better platform to cover these
>> That is my point. No SQL, WebServices, REST, SOAP etc, etc, ok what new
>> acronyms shall we have next year?
>> Lets have another one for persistence, another one for remoting , blah,
>> blah, bloody blah. Its all very disparate and desperate
>> This has been going on since the 70's and have we really made a lot of
>> progress?  Really are WebServices so fantastic compared to Corba?  A
>> technical revolution that makes even Einstein seem kind thick doesn't it ?
>>
>> As for you contention on concurrency. I would much rather a platform that
>> could utilize concurrency intelligently, as with other resource
>> I kind of think GC's are good so now why not invest more in proving more
>> seemless concurrency utilization
>> And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to
>> Scala from Java at this point.
>> Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I am
>> a developer and I like it' mentality.
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Kevin Wright 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 29 August 2010 13:19, Liam Knox  wrote:

 I did not define any problem.
 Look at the history here. Gosling etc. made it very, very clear,
 definitive, decisions in inventing Java. OS neutrality, pointers, memory,
 what to leave out.  I maybe wrong also but I remember a key employee
 resigning based on supporting C++ on N Unix variants also played a part.
 And this basically states why Java was successful.  Java took 2 problems,
 OS dependence and Memory(pointer) management.
 These were massive.  Java is also more easy/less complex the C++.
 So whats next ?
 Define the issues we still have.
 1. Persistence has not evolved for the last 30 years. The mentality is
 still some loose binding that is not easy to develop to. SQL vs OO mess
>>>
>>> Although... grid computing and "application fabrics" (e.g. terracotta)
>>> have offered ways no neatly sidestep persistence in many cases.  The NoSQL
>>> movement also has a great deal to offer.
>>> In the sense that systems like MUMPS have exposed similar concepts for
>>> years then, yes, it hasn't evolved all that much!
>>>

 2. Remoting. We are in no better shape than with Corba. Look at the
 WebServices spec, is that better than Corba?
>>>
>>> WebServices, as in SOAP?
>>> Totally, just as with Corba, the standard has been pushed around and abuse
>>> by corporations hoping to turn it into anything but a commodity.  Margins
>>> are so much higher if you can arrange for vendor lock-in.
>>> REST, on the other hand, I think is really showing some promise as an open
>>> standard.
>>>

 3. Concurrency. Actors in Scala? Fantastic. But why cant a VM understand
 a loop that can be executed in parallel?
>>>
>>> In a word: "purity"
>>> While it's possible for a function to have side-effects (i.e. it does
>>> something other that transform its input to its output), then the compiler
>>> can never be certain that one iteration of a loop isn't somehow dependant on
>>> the side effects of a previous iteration, and so cannot optimise.
>>> Consider one such classic side effect, logging to the console.  Given a
>>> list of integers, how could you possibly `println` them all in parallel?
>>> This is *the* issue that myself and other Scala/FP advocates have been
>>> tearing our hair out to explain, and is the reason why "FP is better for
>>> concurrency".  Only if you have pure (without side-effects) first-class
>>> functions and work with im

Re: [The Java Posse] A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Kevin Wright]

I thought the whole basis of the lawsuit was JIT compilation, mixing
and matching native code with an interpreter...


The language, I suspect could be protected as free speech.  After all,
GWT isn't being attacked here!

On Tuesday, September 7, 2010, Reinier Zwitserloot  wrote:
> How is increasing the general argument for any would-be programmer to
> learn java in any way or form "a free ride"?
>
> If you follow lambda-dev and friends it becomes rather obvious that
> the amount of resources oracle pours into freely available java stuff
> is quite modest.
>
> What, exactly, is google "stealing" from oracle here? Java-the-
> language? That was some random silly syntax slapped together by
> Gosling and friends back in the day as an afterthought. It's not
> novel, genius, or a big deal. Java as a platform has been successful
> because of everything but the language, but those are exactly the
> things google has NOT taken: They have NOT taken the standard library
> (they took harmony). They've NOT taken the novel, genius, serious
> investment JVM which its amazing ability to run code quickly. They
> developed all that themselves.
>
> Sure, google is grandstanding. But at the end of the day, they owe Sun
> or Oracle bupkis.
>
> On Sep 7, 7:01 am, Miroslav Pokorny 
> wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Casper Bang  wrote:
>> > On Sep 7, 2:31 am, Miroslav Pokorny 
>> > wrote:
>> > > In the end i am more disappointed in Google than Oracle. I know I got a
>> > good
>> > > deal and lot of gifts from Sun and I did not help contribute my bit to
>> > keep
>> > > their guardianship of Java going by sponsoring or contributing back to
>> > their
>> > > business. I suppose I am one of the many millions of "parasites" who is
>> > now
>> > > complaining because some worry the "free" ride may be over.
>>
>> > Ah but then you can be happy that now you can contribute back by
>> > buying very expensive Oracle database licences. Sun's failure to
>> > capitalize is not necessarily tied to Java being open source. Are
>> > there really any software shops who would not be willing to pay for
>> > state-of-the-art tools, good documentation etc., I doubt it. In any
>> > even, Sun maintained that the Java side was profitable.
>>
>> Dont confuse my argument, i just find Google's stance hypocritical. When
>> they said its an attack on open source, they really meant its an attack on
>> their ability to get a free ride...
>>
>> > >If Google really
>> > > loved Open Source why didnt they do the benevolent thing and just buy and
>> > > sponsor Java development into the future, when they had the opportunity.
>>
>> > That's what many of us hoped, primarily because Google seems to have
>> > the drive and the money to move the art forward.
>>
>> > > Truth be told they tried to be smart playing legal with lots of laywers
>> > and
>> > > know its come back to bite them.
>>
>> > Lots of lawyers? Could you explain?
>>
>> Google have always been careful with their labelling and marketting of
>> Android. It is quite obvious that this approach had a lot of legal
>> consultation and advice from business types who wished to follow this path
>> rather than just buying Sun. As mentioned in the podcast, they knew that a
>> questioning of this would occur sometime in the future, it was just a
>> question of when. In the end, they decided to get fancy and we have the
>> outcome that we are all witnessing today.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > > They tried to be cheap and avoid
>> > > contributing back to the community by coughing up the one thing the
>> > > community or Sun really needed - the cash. Its not as if Google dont have
>> > > the money, they always seem to have money and millions of it to buy some
>> > > advertising related company, aka Double click.
>>
>> > I don't think Google owes Sun, they may piggyback of the language
>> > syntax but 1) Oracle has nothing in their portfolio that rivals
>> > Android and 2) for many years Google have indeed contributed back by
>> > means of JSR's and experts like Bloch, Gafter etc. You insinuate they
>> > tried to be cheap, albeit by all accounts the design behind Android
>> > was primarily driven by technical and economical considerations. It's
>> > possible we don't know the full story, Fabrizio Giudici among others
>> > have hinted at that. Hopefully we will know soon.
>>
>> Josh, Neal etc are all brilliant, but one cannot compare $7B to whatever
>> contributions and efforts they extend.
>>
>> > If Java was truly open,
>> > we would not even be talking about this parenting thing, we would be
>> > talking about our brothers and sisters in the community.
>>
>> Maybe so, thats another argument for another day, but my original reply was
>> to the label "this is an attach on open source".
>>
>> It Oracle did not buy Sun, and nobody bought it in the end, what else could
>> be said of those who made billions using Java, its community and yet in its
>> time of need did not want to be benevolent ? Open Source is about people

[The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[BoD]

> Well, do you think that if you do something against me, you're all the
> whole Italy? :-)

No but my logic is if Oracle says something very broad like
(voluntarily exaggerating for the sake of the argument) "only Oracle
has the right to make a VM because we have the patent".
Then Android has a VM.
And the VM comes from the Apache Harmony open source project (I know
this is not the case, just making a point!).
The logical conclusion is that the code implemented by Apache is
"illegal".

And I'm not denying Google may also be exploiting this idea for their
own agenda. But in my opinion this law suit *does* have risks and at
least a negative impact on Open Source projects like Apache Harmony.


> I agree that the technicalities are so different that the comparison
> is difficult to do. Genericaly speaking, I think it's fair to think
> that Google is trying to create its own Java-like ecosystem such as
> Microsoft did.

To be honest, it's hard for me to see what Google did that was "wrong"
here, whereas in the Microsoft case it was more obvious. And I'm not a
Microsoft hater nor a Google lover :) At least I'm hoping so...

BoD

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Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[Glenn Bech]

> This is hardly a new argument!
>Thankfully, there a people around who *are* willing to take risks and
>believe in the potential  for improvement.

I assume you were refering to my argument :-) I believe in adopting
something new when it fixes a problem, or add value. Not because
it's new. to get the benefits you have to try out new things, but not
swap the entire stack, or huge portions of it, each time you start a
new
project. But, Everything in moderation I guess.

Software projects should be about creating software, not fiddling
around with frameworks. At least that's my opinion.

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Kevin Wright  wrote:
> This is hardly a new argument!
>
> Thankfully, there a people around who *are* willing to take risks and
> believe in the potential  for improvement.
>
> The world is littered with stories of technologies that were ahead of
> their time.  Just look at the history of aviation, and how Frank
> Whittle had to develop the jet engine despite a lack of military
> funding.  The people who could have helped found it impossible to
> imagine that you could improve on something like the Spitfire.
>
> Thankfully for us, they were wrong.
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 7, 2010, Glenn Bech  wrote:
>>>And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to 
>>>Scala from Java at this point.
>>>Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I am 
>>>a developer and I like it' mentality.
>>
>> Amen! The best thing for producitivity is to stick in one technology,
>> get to know it well, and use it project after project.
>> I often see no, or little cost/benefit analysis when adopting new
>> frameworks or technology.
>>
>> I've never seen a team deliver value faster than on a stack of Struts
>> 1, Hibernate 3 and Jetty/Tomcat.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Liam Knox  wrote:
>>> What your are describing is still a mix and match suite of technologies that
>>> when meshed together you can sort of solve some things in a painful way.
>>> No attempt has really been made to provide a concise expression of these
>>> concerns and therefore base a better platform to cover these
>>> That is my point. No SQL, WebServices, REST, SOAP etc, etc, ok what new
>>> acronyms shall we have next year?
>>> Lets have another one for persistence, another one for remoting , blah,
>>> blah, bloody blah. Its all very disparate and desperate
>>> This has been going on since the 70's and have we really made a lot of
>>> progress?  Really are WebServices so fantastic compared to Corba?  A
>>> technical revolution that makes even Einstein seem kind thick doesn't it ?
>>>
>>> As for you contention on concurrency. I would much rather a platform that
>>> could utilize concurrency intelligently, as with other resource
>>> I kind of think GC's are good so now why not invest more in proving more
>>> seemless concurrency utilization
>>> And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving to
>>> Scala from Java at this point.
>>> Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not 'I am
>>> a developer and I like it' mentality.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Kevin Wright 
>>> wrote:


 On 29 August 2010 13:19, Liam Knox  wrote:
>
> I did not define any problem.
> Look at the history here. Gosling etc. made it very, very clear,
> definitive, decisions in inventing Java. OS neutrality, pointers, memory,
> what to leave out.  I maybe wrong also but I remember a key employee
> resigning based on supporting C++ on N Unix variants also played a part.
> And this basically states why Java was successful.  Java took 2 problems,
> OS dependence and Memory(pointer) management.
> These were massive.  Java is also more easy/less complex the C++.
> So whats next ?
> Define the issues we still have.
> 1. Persistence has not evolved for the last 30 years. The mentality is
> still some loose binding that is not easy to develop to. SQL vs OO mess

 Although... grid computing and "application fabrics" (e.g. terracotta)
 have offered ways no neatly sidestep persistence in many cases.  The NoSQL
 movement also has a great deal to offer.
 In the sense that systems like MUMPS have exposed similar concepts for
 years then, yes, it hasn't evolved all that much!

>
> 2. Remoting. We are in no better shape than with Corba. Look at the
> WebServices spec, is that better than Corba?

 WebServices, as in SOAP?
 Totally, just as with Corba, the standard has been pushed around and abuse
 by corporations hoping to turn it into anything but a commodity.  Margins
 are so much higher if you can arrange for vendor lock-in.
 REST, on the other hand, I think is really showing some promise as an open
 standard.

>
> 3. Concurrency. Actors in Scala? Fantastic. But why cant a VM understand
> a loop that can be executed in parallel

[The Java Posse] Full Time Telecommuting

[John Urberg]

Hi all,

I am a Java Architect and live in an area where there are few
opportunities for my skills.  The only option I can think of besides
moving back to the Twin Cities is telecommuting.  I am interesting in
finding out how many of you on the list are working a full time
telecommute job.  For those of you that are, how did you find a
telecommuting job and how has it been working out?

Thanks,
John

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Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[Kevin Wright]

And therein lies the crux of the debate. :)

The problem is that Java is too verbose, laden with boilerplate, and poorly
suited to a natural expression of several concepts that we find incredibly
easy to think about.

One of these two examples is easier to comprehend:

  //Java
  List newList = new ArrayList
  for(Integer item : oldList) {
newList.add(item * 2)
  }

  //Scala
  val newList = oldList map {_ * 2}

The concept is "double every item in a list", and I believe the Scala
example comes far closer to expressing the underlying idea.
Java can do some of this, through google collections or lambdaJ, but neither
solution is as elegant as Scala's, or as easy to combine with other language
features.

I want to create software that more closely matches how I'm thinking about
that software. That's a benefit, it makes it easier to write and, crucially,
much easier to read.
Developers who come after me will be able to read what I *meant*, not what I
was forced to write so that I might satisfy the compiler.

I'll happily go to the extra effort of writing rich Scala APIs/DSLs, with
operator overloading, type classes, implicits, etc.  If that means that code
using such a library them becomes easier to read/write/maintain.

To me "just creating software" is about using tools that are as
natural-feeling as possible, not about struggling with
complicated/nonintuitive frameworks, regardless of how well I may have
memorised them.


On 7 September 2010 14:18, Glenn Bech  wrote:

> > This is hardly a new argument!
> >Thankfully, there a people around who *are* willing to take risks and
> >believe in the potential  for improvement.
>
> I assume you were refering to my argument :-) I believe in adopting
> something new when it fixes a problem, or add value. Not because
> it's new. to get the benefits you have to try out new things, but not
> swap the entire stack, or huge portions of it, each time you start a
> new
> project. But, Everything in moderation I guess.
>
> Software projects should be about creating software, not fiddling
> around with frameworks. At least that's my opinion.
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Kevin Wright 
> wrote:
> > This is hardly a new argument!
> >
> > Thankfully, there a people around who *are* willing to take risks and
> > believe in the potential  for improvement.
> >
> > The world is littered with stories of technologies that were ahead of
> > their time.  Just look at the history of aviation, and how Frank
> > Whittle had to develop the jet engine despite a lack of military
> > funding.  The people who could have helped found it impossible to
> > imagine that you could improve on something like the Spitfire.
> >
> > Thankfully for us, they were wrong.
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, September 7, 2010, Glenn Bech  wrote:
> >>>And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving
> to Scala from Java at this point.
> >>>Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not
> 'I am a developer and I like it' mentality.
> >>
> >> Amen! The best thing for producitivity is to stick in one technology,
> >> get to know it well, and use it project after project.
> >> I often see no, or little cost/benefit analysis when adopting new
> >> frameworks or technology.
> >>
> >> I've never seen a team deliver value faster than on a stack of Struts
> >> 1, Hibernate 3 and Jetty/Tomcat.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Liam Knox  wrote:
> >>> What your are describing is still a mix and match suite of technologies
> that
> >>> when meshed together you can sort of solve some things in a painful
> way.
> >>> No attempt has really been made to provide a concise expression of
> these
> >>> concerns and therefore base a better platform to cover these
> >>> That is my point. No SQL, WebServices, REST, SOAP etc, etc, ok what new
> >>> acronyms shall we have next year?
> >>> Lets have another one for persistence, another one for remoting , blah,
> >>> blah, bloody blah. Its all very disparate and desperate
> >>> This has been going on since the 70's and have we really made a lot of
> >>> progress?  Really are WebServices so fantastic compared to Corba?  A
> >>> technical revolution that makes even Einstein seem kind thick doesn't
> it ?
> >>>
> >>> As for you contention on concurrency. I would much rather a platform
> that
> >>> could utilize concurrency intelligently, as with other resource
> >>> I kind of think GC's are good so now why not invest more in proving
> more
> >>> seemless concurrency utilization
> >>> And no I don't see an overall business benefit for a large team moving
> to
> >>> Scala from Java at this point.
> >>> Given reasons previously stated you need to look at macro benefits not
> 'I am
> >>> a developer and I like it' mentality.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Kevin Wright <
> kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> 
> 
>  On 29 August 2010 13:19, Liam Knox  wrote:
> >
> > I did not define any problem.
> > Lo

Re: [The Java Posse] Full Time Telecommuting

[Jan Goyvaerts]

*Very* interesting question ! I would actually like very much to do this in
Belgium.

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 23:32, John Urberg  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am a Java Architect and live in an area where there are few
> opportunities for my skills.  The only option I can think of besides
> moving back to the Twin Cities is telecommuting.  I am interesting in
> finding out how many of you on the list are working a full time
> telecommute job.  For those of you that are, how did you find a
> telecommuting job and how has it been working out?
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Full Time Telecommuting

[Robert Casto]

My current job has turned out to be more telecommuting than I expected, but
it was not setup as that. The first couple months were all in the office. It
evolved over time as the team got used to each other.

I don't know of many companies willing to outright hire telecommuters. Sun
did that a lot, but they were an exception, not the rule. Many companies
such as Amazon.com where I spent 2 years just don't work that way. There is
so much going on that you really need to be there in the office and/or close
by. There is a lot of benefit from having developers close together.

I live in Cincinnati which has the same problem you have. Not a lot of
demand for my skills and the high end jobs are filled or would require many
years of working at the company to get into.

Looking forward to seeing what other answers pop out of this discussion.

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Jan Goyvaerts wrote:

> *Very* interesting question ! I would actually like very much to do this
> in Belgium.
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 23:32, John Urberg  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I am a Java Architect and live in an area where there are few
>> opportunities for my skills.  The only option I can think of besides
>> moving back to the Twin Cities is telecommuting.  I am interesting in
>> finding out how many of you on the list are working a full time
>> telecommute job.  For those of you that are, how did you find a
>> telecommuting job and how has it been working out?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John
>>
>> --
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[The Java Posse] Re: Full Time Telecommuting

[DaveE]

I've been trying to get into it as well. Beware some online
telecommuting agency sites. Why is it when most agencies fall over
themselves to get their normal job ads out there these telecommute
sites demand that you pay a subscription fee to join before seeing
full job descriptions and/or application details? Not all seem to be
this way but alot are.

There also seems to be alot of 'skills for hire' sites where you post
your CV/resume and bid for work that you subsequently do from home -
the average hourly rate is often well under $10 per hour.

Robert's experience is by far the most common - that you gradually get
into a work from home scenario when trust has been gained.

I hope it's a world that expands but don't see it as a growing trend,
rather a set of isolated cases.

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[The Java Posse] Re: Full Time Telecommuting

[Casper Bang]

> Robert's experience is by far the most common - that you gradually get
> into a work from home scenario when trust has been gained.

Yup, that has been the case for me as well. I don't really see any
alternative, there are only so many libraries that can to be written
in isolation. Sun and Microsoft seems to be ok with telecommuting,
Google not at all (though they just tend to open an office in the
vicinity if the team is interesting enough i.e. the Chrome gang in
Denmark and the Maps/Wave gang in Australia.

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Full Time Telecommuting

[Paul Gearon]

I've been telecommuting for the past few years, but I have to say that
I don't know how you'd get a telecommuting job!

Luckily for me, I have a specialized skillset that has had employers
ask me to work for them. In that case, you have the option of saying
that you don't want to (or, in my case, can't afford to) move. A few
months ago the organization I was working for had to let me go, so I
was out looking for work again. I found several offers, most of which
included relocation expenses, but it was only the organizations who
work in my specialty that gave me the offer to telecommute.

So, the only advice I can give is to specialize in something that
people want, that most developers don't know.

Incidentally, telecommuting has some definite upsides, but the lack of
contact with coworkers is a problem. After a while, you miss the
social interaction with other professionals. More importantly for our
industry, you miss the opportunity to learn from your peers. After my
experiences I'd say that my dream job would let me telecommute, but
also have me come into the office for one or two days a week.

Paul

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:16 AM, DaveE  wrote:
> I've been trying to get into it as well. Beware some online
> telecommuting agency sites. Why is it when most agencies fall over
> themselves to get their normal job ads out there these telecommute
> sites demand that you pay a subscription fee to join before seeing
> full job descriptions and/or application details? Not all seem to be
> this way but alot are.
>
> There also seems to be alot of 'skills for hire' sites where you post
> your CV/resume and bid for work that you subsequently do from home -
> the average hourly rate is often well under $10 per hour.
>
> Robert's experience is by far the most common - that you gradually get
> into a work from home scenario when trust has been gained.
>
> I hope it's a world that expands but don't see it as a growing trend,
> rather a set of isolated cases.
>
> --
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>

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Full Time Telecommuting

[Paul Gearon]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Casper Bang  wrote:
>> Robert's experience is by far the most common - that you gradually get
>> into a work from home scenario when trust has been gained.
>
> Yup, that has been the case for me as well. I don't really see any
> alternative, there are only so many libraries that can to be written
> in isolation. Sun and Microsoft seems to be ok with telecommuting,
> Google not at all (though they just tend to open an office in the
> vicinity if the team is interesting enough i.e. the Chrome gang in
> Denmark and the Maps/Wave gang in Australia.

They also started an engineering team in Chicago so that they could
get one of the SVN developers to come work for them. They may have had
other interests in Chicago, but he was certainly a big reason for them
to create that team.

Paul

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny  wrote:

>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
> fact.


Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
look then?


> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and
> never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
> disappointing.


Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.

How many other companies do that?

-- 
Cédric

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Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 6:34 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:

> The problem is that Java is too verbose, laden with boilerplate, and poorly
> suited to a natural expression of several concepts that we find incredibly
> easy to think about.


The problem is that you keep missing the big picture. You focus so much on
code brevity and readability (a very subjective notion) and you are not
hearing what everyone running project in the real world is telling you.

There is a lot more at stake to deliver successful products than the
implementation language.

As a matter of fact, you try to ram the code brevity argument *again* just
below.

I love discussing languages and digressing occasionally about topics I feel
passionate about, but honestly Kevin, you keep repeating yourself over and
over again and that's not exactly doing the Scala community much good.

-- 
Cédric

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Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[Jan Goyvaerts]

Without thinking about somebody in particular - but I think it's sad so many
threads turn to waste these days... :-(

2010/9/7 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 6:34 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:
>
>> The problem is that Java is too verbose, laden with boilerplate, and
>> poorly suited to a natural expression of several concepts that we find
>> incredibly easy to think about.
>
>
> The problem is that you keep missing the big picture. You focus so much on
> code brevity and readability (a very subjective notion) and you are not
> hearing what everyone running project in the real world is telling you.
>
> There is a lot more at stake to deliver successful products than the
> implementation language.
>
> As a matter of fact, you try to ram the code brevity argument *again* just
> below.
>
> I love discussing languages and digressing occasionally about topics I feel
> passionate about, but honestly Kevin, you keep repeating yourself over and
> over again and that's not exactly doing the Scala community much good.
>
> --
> Cédric
>
>
>  --
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Re: [The Java Posse] Mushroom season - New language each year

[Kevin Wright]

Did I miss something?  Did the discussion suddenly turn to project
management while I blinked, or to the issues of delivery and operations?

My understanding is that we were talking of the specific agile practice of
regularly learning a new programming language, the reasons to do so, the
problems with various programming languages, the benefits of specific
choices, and the solutions that they're able to offer.

By all means, I'd be happy to discuss the wider picture of why I think a
highly maintainable language is relevant, the importance of refactoring and
composability, the benefits of a REPL for exploratory coding, how it all
fits into a continuous deployment setup, the time-to-market advantages in
doing this and how it all boosts shareholder value.

There's another big picture that you're missing here.  Namely that brevity
is not a goal, time spent typing is such a small portion of programming that
there's really no benefit in just reducing keystrokes.  On the other hand,
comprehensibility and flexibility are very important - for all the reasons
stated above.  If brevity goes hand in hand with these goals (and it does
seem to), then so be it!


Of course, we're no longer within the "New Language Each Year" topic by this
stage, but I can't be held responsible for the original choice of topic.
 Nor can I be held responsible for anyone else's opinion of what is or is
not "real world", it's a very subjective idea.



2010/9/7 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 6:34 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:
>
>> The problem is that Java is too verbose, laden with boilerplate, and
>> poorly suited to a natural expression of several concepts that we find
>> incredibly easy to think about.
>
>
> The problem is that you keep missing the big picture. You focus so much on
> code brevity and readability (a very subjective notion) and you are not
> hearing what everyone running project in the real world is telling you.
>
> There is a lot more at stake to deliver successful products than the
> implementation language.
>
> As a matter of fact, you try to ram the code brevity argument *again* just
> below.
>
> I love discussing languages and digressing occasionally about topics I feel
> passionate about, but honestly Kevin, you keep repeating yourself over and
> over again and that's not exactly doing the Scala community much good.
>
> --
> Cédric
>
>
>  --
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[The Java Posse] Re: Full Time Telecommuting

[Chris Adamson]

Independent consulting/contracting can be a sort of full-time
telecommuting, provided you turn down the 95% of positions that are on-
site.  This is a different scenario from what some of the other folks
are talking about, in which you have a single full-time employer and
work from home.

I've been doing this for a year and a half after leaving the full-time
editor gig at java.net, and it's only just been viable in the last few
months (I lost a *ton* of money developing an indie iPhone app last
year).  It really helps to know a lot of people through professional
connections, conferences, developer user groups, etc.

If you think you ever might want to go indie, it helps to set up your
LLC or S-corp years before you think you'll need it, and take on small
jobs where you find them. These can go on the resume and get you
LinkedIn recommendations for the next contract.

Those bid sites that DaveE mentions are a disaster.  Rates are lower
than what you'd make in the kitchen at Taco Bell, and a group of
bottom feeders has proven willing to post ignorant low-ball bids on
*anything*.  Check out the bids on this RentACoder posting looking for
a proof of P != NP, with a $500-$1000 budget:
http://www.getacoder.com/projects/solve%20p%20vs%20np_132036.html

--Chris

On Sep 5, 5:32 pm, John Urberg  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am a Java Architect and live in an area where there are few
> opportunities for my skills.  The only option I can think of besides
> moving back to the Twin Cities is telecommuting.  I am interesting in
> finding out how many of you on the list are working a full time
> telecommute job.  For those of you that are, how did you find a
> telecommuting job and how has it been working out?
>
> Thanks,
> John

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[The Java Posse] a totally new language

[Ruben Reusser]

hi there,

now I know you guys like languages a lot and are constantly debating if
there is a replacement language for java. The whole discussion has been
bugging me for a while and I always thought it would be necessary for a new
language to bring something to the table that java does offer but that could
be done better for the sake of getting stuff done faster (I always felt the
network libraries in java (easier socket programming) was a good reason to
switch from c/c++ to java).

In order to provide a business advantage to a new language that could drive
adoption, I have been thinking about a restfull language - if a language
incorporates rest into it's architecture and makes it easier to develop
restfull applications we might have a winner in my opinion. Say for example
if the language helps you to write restfull services that can easily be
integrated with each other and where the UI can be easily merged for
multiple applications we could potentially start building larger
applications where we have the ability to reuse application blocks and
create bigger applications faster.

Would love to get some comments on it - pros or cons of course :-)

Ruben

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Re: [The Java Posse] a totally new language

[Kevin Wright]

pros: It sounds like a 4GL
cons: It sounds like a 4GL with no 3rd party recognition that could better
be handled as a simple library/DSL in any language that supports such
things.


On 7 September 2010 18:16, Ruben Reusser  wrote:

> hi there,
>
> now I know you guys like languages a lot and are constantly debating if
> there is a replacement language for java. The whole discussion has been
> bugging me for a while and I always thought it would be necessary for a new
> language to bring something to the table that java does offer but that could
> be done better for the sake of getting stuff done faster (I always felt the
> network libraries in java (easier socket programming) was a good reason to
> switch from c/c++ to java).
>
> In order to provide a business advantage to a new language that could drive
> adoption, I have been thinking about a restfull language - if a language
> incorporates rest into it's architecture and makes it easier to develop
> restfull applications we might have a winner in my opinion. Say for example
> if the language helps you to write restfull services that can easily be
> integrated with each other and where the UI can be easily merged for
> multiple applications we could potentially start building larger
> applications where we have the ability to reuse application blocks and
> create bigger applications faster.
>
> Would love to get some comments on it - pros or cons of course :-)
>
> Ruben
>
> --
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Re: [The Java Posse] a totally new language

[Ruben Reusser]

what makes it sound like a 4gl language? how about if for example method
calls can be restfull or directly linked with the language being able to
expose the call to the outside world and the concept of security built in to
the language to begin with (say these requests are only allowed from within
the app, these are tied to a security level, etc)?

Ruben

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:

> pros: It sounds like a 4GL
> cons: It sounds like a 4GL with no 3rd party recognition that could better
> be handled as a simple library/DSL in any language that supports such
> things.
>
>
> On 7 September 2010 18:16, Ruben Reusser  wrote:
>
>> hi there,
>>
>> now I know you guys like languages a lot and are constantly debating if
>> there is a replacement language for java. The whole discussion has been
>> bugging me for a while and I always thought it would be necessary for a new
>> language to bring something to the table that java does offer but that could
>> be done better for the sake of getting stuff done faster (I always felt the
>> network libraries in java (easier socket programming) was a good reason to
>> switch from c/c++ to java).
>>
>> In order to provide a business advantage to a new language that could
>> drive adoption, I have been thinking about a restfull language - if a
>> language incorporates rest into it's architecture and makes it easier to
>> develop restfull applications we might have a winner in my opinion. Say for
>> example if the language helps you to write restfull services that can easily
>> be integrated with each other and where the UI can be easily merged for
>> multiple applications we could potentially start building larger
>> applications where we have the ability to reuse application blocks and
>> create bigger applications faster.
>>
>> Would love to get some comments on it - pros or cons of course :-)
>>
>> Ruben
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kevin Wright
>
>

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Marcelo Fukushima]

2010/9/7 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny <
> miroslav.poko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
>> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
>> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
>> fact.
>
>
> Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
> humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
> more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
> expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
> other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
> look then?
>
>
>> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and
>> never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
>> disappointing.
>
>
> Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
> source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.
>
> How many other companies do that?
>

i can only remember Sun doing something of the like, but that was back in
the good old days


>
> --
> Cédric
>
>
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] a totally new language

[Kevin Wright]

A 4GL is any language that's specialised for a particular function, and
abstracts around tasks necessary to perform that function.

By focussing on REST, you're specialising for web services.  This isn't a
language that would be used for a washing machine controller, or for
managing a nuclear power plant, or writing an MP3 player application, it's
designed with one specific goal in mind...

and that's the definition of a 4GL, it simplifies and abstracts to a higher
level, but in a specialised domain.



On 7 September 2010 18:51, Ruben Reusser  wrote:

> what makes it sound like a 4gl language? how about if for example method
> calls can be restfull or directly linked with the language being able to
> expose the call to the outside world and the concept of security built in to
> the language to begin with (say these requests are only allowed from within
> the app, these are tied to a security level, etc)?
>
> Ruben
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:
>
>> pros: It sounds like a 4GL
>> cons: It sounds like a 4GL with no 3rd party recognition that could better
>> be handled as a simple library/DSL in any language that supports such
>> things.
>>
>>
>>  On 7 September 2010 18:16, Ruben Reusser  wrote:
>>
>>>  hi there,
>>>
>>> now I know you guys like languages a lot and are constantly debating if
>>> there is a replacement language for java. The whole discussion has been
>>> bugging me for a while and I always thought it would be necessary for a new
>>> language to bring something to the table that java does offer but that could
>>> be done better for the sake of getting stuff done faster (I always felt the
>>> network libraries in java (easier socket programming) was a good reason to
>>> switch from c/c++ to java).
>>>
>>> In order to provide a business advantage to a new language that could
>>> drive adoption, I have been thinking about a restfull language - if a
>>> language incorporates rest into it's architecture and makes it easier to
>>> develop restfull applications we might have a winner in my opinion. Say for
>>> example if the language helps you to write restfull services that can easily
>>> be integrated with each other and where the UI can be easily merged for
>>> multiple applications we could potentially start building larger
>>> applications where we have the ability to reuse application blocks and
>>> create bigger applications faster.
>>>
>>> Would love to get some comments on it - pros or cons of course :-)
>>>
>>> Ruben
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Kevin Wright]

Ahh, the joys of due diligence!

IANAL, but...

Company executives are legally compelled to maximise shareholder income,
just so long as they don't break any criminal laws in doing so.
Fail to outsource your clothing factory to China?  Yes, you can get sued for
that...

Nowadays, the only real option for a CxO of a public company with any morals
is to defend "doing the right thing" as public relations.
And as good PR attracts customers, then it's just another case of acting in
the interests of shareholders, right?
Pretty hard to sue someone for good marketing.

Sad that it has to be that way...




On 7 September 2010 18:51, Marcelo Fukushima  wrote:

>
>
> 2010/9/7 Cédric Beust ♔ 
>
>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny <
>> miroslav.poko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
>>> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
>>> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
>>> fact.
>>
>>
>> Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
>> humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
>> more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
>> expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
>> other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
>> look then?
>>
>>
>>> Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and
>>> never even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
>>> disappointing.
>>
>>
>> Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
>> source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.
>>
>> How many other companies do that?
>>
>
> i can only remember Sun doing something of the like, but that was back in
> the good old days
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Cédric
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [The Java Posse] a totally new language

[Ruben Reusser]

looks like I was not clear enough in that case - the language should be
broad, not focusing just on rest. The goal would really be to build a
language that promotes writing application building blocks and tying them
together - weather it's a desktop application or a web application. The idea
is also to promote decoupling of the View in the application to help putting
application building blocks together and keep a uniform, consistent view so
the final app looks like as one application and not multiple applications
put together.

Rest is only supposed to be the approach to meet that goal. And the goal
should definitely not be to limit the language to a specialized domain.

Ruben


On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:

> A 4GL is any language that's specialised for a particular function, and
> abstracts around tasks necessary to perform that function.
>
> By focussing on REST, you're specialising for web services.  This isn't a
> language that would be used for a washing machine controller, or for
> managing a nuclear power plant, or writing an MP3 player application, it's
> designed with one specific goal in mind...
>
> and that's the definition of a 4GL, it simplifies and abstracts to a higher
> level, but in a specialised domain.
>
>
>

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 9/7/10 11:22 , Casper Bang wrote:
>
> What cash? You can not expect Google to have bought Sun just because
> they happen to use some of their open source technology.
Honestly, for the few (basically zero) things that I can understand of
business, Google might have done a big mistake, really. Sun was bought
for $6/7M, right? If Oracle wins, that is they force a settle down, I
could expect that Google will pay something in the magnitude of the
$M, and they will have to share their future revenues on Android,
which will be further $M in a few years, I suppose. In addition, they
would have bought all the other assets, some of which could have been
profitable for them, others could have been sold to recover some $M.
Not to count all the stress that they could have avoided (to
themselves and everybody else). And they could have consolidated their
position in the FLOSS community by becoming the Java steward.

- -- 
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Serge Boulay]

What happens if Oracle doesn't win the lawsuit? Maybe Google wins and sues
Oracle for irreparable damages (lost time, market share, client confidence
etc).

Nobody really knows what will happen - it's all speculation



On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Fabrizio Giudici <
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it> wrote:

>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 9/7/10 11:22 , Casper Bang wrote:
> >
> > What cash? You can not expect Google to have bought Sun just because
> > they happen to use some of their open source technology.
> Honestly, for the few (basically zero) things that I can understand of
> business, Google might have done a big mistake, really. Sun was bought
> for $6/7M, right? If Oracle wins, that is they force a settle down, I
> could expect that Google will pay something in the magnitude of the
> $M, and they will have to share their future revenues on Android,
> which will be further $M in a few years, I suppose. In addition, they
> would have bought all the other assets, some of which could have been
> profitable for them, others could have been sold to recover some $M.
> Not to count all the stress that they could have avoided (to
> themselves and everybody else). And they could have consolidated their
> position in the FLOSS community by becoming the Java steward.
>
> - --
> Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
> Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
> java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
> fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkyGhzEACgkQeDweFqgUGxdV7gCgo4mkjLm59ccMCr8sd23l0hF5
> 55UAoIBP7v2fIY+Qt03axp2nK3Mx2lFu
> =8hJz
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Cédric Beust ♔]

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Fabrizio Giudici <
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it> wrote:

> Sun was bought for $6/7M, right?
>

Billions, not millions,

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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Fabrizio Giudici]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 9/7/10 21:16 , Cédric Beust ♔ wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 11:40 AM, Fabrizio Giudici
>  > wrote:
>
> Sun was bought for $6/7M, right?
>
>
> Billions, not millions,
Of course, everything in my message should be rewritten as $xG in
place of $xM.

Of course, this is speculation and Oracle might lose. But I think that
most chances are for a settlement, not for a win / lose (eventually,
the settlement might be what Oracle expects or not, and I'd interpret
"win / lose" in this way).

- -- 
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Full Time Telecommuting

[Josh McDonald]

Who'd telecommute to Google? Have you seen their office? ;-)

On 8 September 2010 01:51, Casper Bang  wrote:

> > Robert's experience is by far the most common - that you gradually get
> > into a work from home scenario when trust has been gained.
>
> Yup, that has been the case for me as well. I don't really see any
> alternative, there are only so many libraries that can to be written
> in isolation. Sun and Microsoft seems to be ok with telecommuting,
> Google not at all (though they just tend to open an office in the
> vicinity if the team is interesting enough i.e. the Chrome gang in
> Denmark and the Maps/Wave gang in Australia.
>
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Miroslav Pokorny]

I seem to be repeating myself, which is probably boring, so sorry to those i
have bored. You might want to skip what ive written below...

2010/9/8 Cédric Beust ♔ 

>
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Miroslav Pokorny <
> miroslav.poko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Im not sure if its business or an American thing but it seems you forget
>> to about being human which is sometimes mostly about doing the right thing
>> regardless of what the law says. Overall most companies forget that simple
>> fact.
>
>
> Expecting companies (public ones at that) to follow the same moral laws as
> humans is quite naïve. Besides, Google has contributed to open source in
> more ways than I can even remember. You are upset that they don't match your
> expectations in that area, but try to step back and apply your reasoning to
> other major software companies like Oracle, Apple or HP. How does Google
> look then?
>
>
Too me its like taking an open source library, making lots of cash and never
>> even giving the authors a donation. Yes its legal but its overall, its
>> disappointing.
>
>
> Google has hired *a lot* of open source developers to work on their open
> source project. That sounds even more generous than a donation to me.
>
>
Compared to all the OSS that Sun gave away its still a small fraction. Sun
sponsored things that were never going to make them money in any form
(simple example Netbeans) while Google only gives away stuff that almost
always helps their goals of pushing people onto the internet assets. My
comment was only made because if you really believe in OSS , as per their
statement, sometimes you need to get the money out. You cant always make
money from every deal, sometimes its about the community, eg Netbeans, or
perhaps in this case, buying Sun. So please dont shout how you love the
community and open source next time, when it was obvious you were being
cheap.


> How many other companies do that?
>

Naive yes - of course i know happens very rarely. My original comment was a
response to people sort of defending the Google stance particularly
regarding the comment "its an attack on Open Source" (paraphrased). All i
was trying to say is if they really love the community and open source, they
should put their money where their mouth is, and contribute some money back
into the ecosystem. Given the value of Sun, Java particularly regarding the
Android platform it seemed "cheap" to not just buy them. Given the costs of
this trial, continued potential uncertainty etc its seems money is being
wasted on lawyers instead of something more worthwhile like buying Sun. In a
few years time what will the cost of this alternative path compared to the
simpler option ?

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Re: [The Java Posse] a totally new language

[Vineet Sinha]

Not that what you suggest does not make sense, but JAX-RS does provide
amazing Rest support. I can imagine a custom made language being a little
easier to use than Java + JAX-RS but not that much better.

Perhaps the question really is: what should be the most important trait to
add to a new language that will help developers? I personally believe that
design patterns would make the difference to switching to the next language.
Scala has taken a great attempt at it, but a good question is - is a better
language possible?

Regards,
Vineet
-- 
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vin...@architexa.com :: 617.818.0548
www.architexa.com - Know Your Code


On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Ruben Reusser  wrote:

> ...
> Say for example if the language helps you to write restfull services that
> can easily be integrated with each other and where the UI can be easily
> merged for multiple applications we could potentially start building larger
> applications where we have the ability to reuse application blocks and
> create bigger applications faster.
>

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[The Java Posse] Re: A few reactions to the latest episode (Oracle vs Google)

[Michael Neale]

They shouldn't claim that Oracle are suing open source - for one. It
isn't helpful to the wider community to add FUD to the FUD (but it
might be helpful to google to be dishonest like this).


On Sep 7, 9:46 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot  wrote:
> Oh, no question. Google is milking the "Whoa, what the heck is oracle
> doing here" angle as much as they can, and they are definitely
> grandstanding to do it. But why shouldn't they? If ever the argument
> "corporations do whatever they need to do to earn money" holds, it
> holds here. Google understands the vagaries of the wider internet tech
> community exactly in the way Oracle does not.
>
> On Sep 7, 2:14 am, Michael Neale  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Not disputing the "attack" on open source angle - but Oracle are
> > "filing a lawsuit" against open source, as said by Josh 
> > Bloch:http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2010/08/update-on-javaone.html
>
> > Google are adding to the fud by talking like this, and a lot of this
> > is grandstanding to get the development community (more) onside with
> > google. I think there are no good guys in this sorry tale.
>
> > On Sep 7, 8:33 am, Reinier Zwitserloot  wrote:
>
> > > Might just be two euro-cents, but, spot on.
>
> > > I believe the Apache Harmony TCK thing is in regards to the technical
> > > side of it: Apache Harmony does pass the actual TCK, at least it is
> > > rumoured to do so, as in all the test cases pass. It is not, however,
> > > officially a recipient of the official TCK seal of approval and it has
> > > gained no legal rights or responsibilities for passing it.
>
> > > The (ridiculous) broadness of these patents, along with the complete
> > > silence in regards to Oracle's intentions here, means it IS an attack
> > > on open source, and on developers around the world in general (because
> > > it opens the door to just about any language being sued by oracle). I
> > > understand that this feels rather broad, and that silence is the
> > > prudent legal course, but none of that changes the fact that the FOSS
> > > community, and really developers in general, cannot take this as
> > > anything but a direct attack on their future. To do otherwise is to
> > > presume Oracle is merely using this as a convenient stick to beat
> > > google with, and would never use them anywhere else. Why would anyone
> > > make that assumption?
>
> > > Oracle should have thought the backlash through a lot more than they
> > > have. It is also entirely unclear what oracle's agenda is here; if it
> > > is merely a bunch of licensing dosh, they would have filed in East
> > > Texas. They haven't. Lack of information is understandably making
> > > everyone rather upset and on edge. Oracle can't very well claim they
> > > didn't see that coming. Or, well, they can, but if so, their PR /
> > > legal team should get a stern talking to for dropping the ball like
> > > this. How could they not have seen this fallout coming?
>
> > > On Sep 6, 7:19 pm, BoD  wrote:
>
> > > > Excellent episode as always :)
>
> > > > 1/ At some point Joe and also Dick if I'm not mistaken say that Google
> > > > shouldn't say that the law suit is against Open Source and that saying
> > > > so is purely a PR move.
> > > > But since Android is based on the Apache Harmony Project, don't you
> > > > think it *is* fair to say that therefore, attacking Android is also
> > > > attacking Apache Harmony? (And thus, "the Open Source community"?)
> > > > IANAL but it seems that at least some of the patents they claim
> > > > concern the 'Harmony' part of Android - and so, if they win the law
> > > > suit, what does it mean for Harmony?
>
> > > > 2/ At some point it was said that the Apache Harmony Project passed
> > > > the SE TCK (that it is certified Java SE), but not the ME TCK because
> > > > of the Field of Use restriction.
> > > > But if I understand correctly (feel free to correct me) Harmony didn't
> > > > pass the Java SE 5 TCK 
> > > > (cf:http://www.apache.org/jcp/sunopenletterfaq.html)
>
> > > > 3/ At some point it was said that what Google did was no different
> > > > from what Microsoft did (re. the 1997 Sun vs Microsoft case).
> > > > But this *was* different, the 1997 lawsuit was about "trademark
> > > > infringement, false advertising, breach of contract, unfair
> > > > competition, interference with prospective economic advantage, and
> > > > inducing breach of contract".
> > > > Basically Microsoft called their version of Java "Java" and they
> > > > didn't have the right to do so (by contract).
> > > > But - and I think Dick knows this all too well ;) - Google made sure
> > > > to be very careful to not call their version "Java". And so all they
> > > > could find was silly (imho) patents claims (actually this case is also
> > > > a Copyright one but it seems we don't know much details about this
> > > > part...)
>
> > > > Just my two euro-cents ;)
>
> > > > BoD

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[The Java Posse] Re: Post your strangest loop and win (up to) 4 free passes to Strange Loop!

[Bill Robertson]

I'd like to thank the Alex for the ticket, the Posse for judging and
all of the hard work they do (seriously, thanks guys), Kevin, and last
but not least Nicholas Forth, inventor of the for loop.



On Sep 5, 6:32 pm, Kevin Wright  wrote:
> Just listened to the results in podcast #322 (hereafter to be known as "the
> epic")
> And the winners were:
>
> #1 Joseph Darcy
> #2 Curt Cox
> #3 Me!
> #4 Bill Robertson
>
> I'd love to go, but find myself to be living on the wrong continent...
>
> Enjoy your ticket Bill!
>
> --
> Kevin Wright
>
> mail / gtalk / msn : kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com
> pulse / skype: kev.lee.wright
> twitter: @thecoda

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Re: [The Java Posse] a totally new language

[Ruben Reusser]

I'm aware that there is great frameworks around in java to help you do good
rest application. Back in the C/C++ time we also had good frameworks to deal
with sockets, etc. Still, when thinking back for me at least java was a
welcome relieve that such a fundamental function in the new world was built
in and could be built on top of.

Thanks for your suggestion on supporting patterns better in a language. That
could certainly help a lot too.

On your remark about weather a better language is possible or not I'd say
yes, but it has to solve a totally fundamental other problem. My take on it
is I guess that today we're sharing libraries to make development easier. If
we could possibly share whole application building blocks in the future (say
an online store and a cms and a crm) and make it look like one application
we could possibly have a better language.

We can do this in java but we would have to agree on what stack to use, etc.
hence the thought of a language to set all that up.

Ruben

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Vineet Sinha  wrote:

> Not that what you suggest does not make sense, but JAX-RS does provide
> amazing Rest support. I can imagine a custom made language being a little
> easier to use than Java + JAX-RS but not that much better.
>
> Perhaps the question really is: what should be the most important trait to
> add to a new language that will help developers? I personally believe that
> design patterns would make the difference to switching to the next language.
> Scala has taken a great attempt at it, but a good question is - is a better
> language possible?
>
> Regards,
> Vineet
> --
>

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