Re: [newbie] curious
In reply to Don's mail, d.d. Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:58:41 -0800: Why would a list member request a reply from my computer that I have received his message. Will they then get myraid's of emails with our addy's...already available on our posts. Perhaps this should be turned off. Just a thought It is a setting in most mail programs. This is not something from the list, but something from the poster of the mail. Paul -- Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do. http://nlpagan.net - OS:Linux Mandrake 8.2 - E-mail:Sylpheed 0.8.6 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] curious
Probably because they are using Outlook and have the Request delivery receipt or read receipt box checked. I don't think that it is anything sinister. Just don't send the receipt notification. If you can identify the user, you could send them an email about it, because they probably aren't even aware it's on. Joeb ---Original Message--- From: Don and Alexa Pongracz Sent: 12/11/02 10:58 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [newbie] curious Why would a list member request a reply from my computer that I have received his message. Will they then get myraid's of emails with our addy's...already available on our posts. Perhaps this should be turned off. Just a thought Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] curious
Its a good way to get confirmed address's if you are a spammer... rgds Frank -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Don and Alexa PongraczSent: Thursday, 12 December 2002 12:59 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [newbie] curious Why would a list member request a reply from my computer that I have received his message. Will they then get myraid's of emails with our addy's...already available on our posts. Perhaps this should be turned off. Just a thought
Re: [newbie] curious
that's a thought - Original Message - From: Franki To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:46 AM Subject: RE: [newbie] curious Its a good way to get confirmed address's if you are a spammer... rgds Frank -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Don and Alexa PongraczSent: Thursday, 12 December 2002 12:59 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [newbie] curious Why would a list member request a reply from my computer that I have received his message. Will they then get myraid's of emails with our addy's...already available on our posts. Perhaps this should be turned off. Just a thought
Re: [newbie] curious X information
Here's the link: lrwxrwxrwx1 root root 29 Jun 23 00:19 X - ../../usr/X11R6/bin/XF86_SVGA* --- civileme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 04 July 2001 17:06, Terry C wrote: I am getting conflicting information concerning the version of X I'm running, and the color depth. When I bring up X-Server - KDE Control Module it tells me that I am running XFree86 3.3.6 and a 24 bit color depth. If I run XFree86 -version in a terminal it tells me that I am running XFree86 4.0.1. I tend to believe the info from running XFree86 -version, but why the discrepancy? I need to make sure that I have 4.0.1 running before I install the nVidia drivers, so how can I verify which is correct? Thanks. TC __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Where does /etc/X11/X point? Civileme __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [newbie] curious ....
On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 12:10, Judith Miner wrote: Sridhar wrote: I noticed that you said in an earlier post that you had trouble importing your fonts. Have you tried using DrakFont (part of the Mandrake Control Centre)? Of course. It's a very limited tool, but it did make some TrueType fonts available to the system and some of the programs are using them for display. They do look better than the dreadful defaults used otherwise. But it's not enough for printing or serious work. You don't get an acceptable character set, only ISO 8859 that does not include true typographic apostrophes, quotation marks, and other important typographic characters. KFontInst should do what I need to do with both Type 1 and TrueType fonts and I'll be able to select a proper character set, but I'm still puzzling out how to do the preliminaries as described in the KFontInst manual. Do you know how to get rid of all those ugly fonts that are listed in DrakFont? I tried highlighting them and telling DrakFont to remove them, but it wouldn't. Didn't tell me why, either. I would keep a Helvetica, a Times, and a Courier from the screen fonts listed and would like to dump the rest. I have added several TrueTypes for screen display. --Judy Miner I'm not sure if this will do the job (I haven't tried it yet), but have a look at pfaedit, now available in Cooker. A quick and dirty way to disable font directories (not individual fonts) can be done in the file /etc/X11/fs/config. Place a hash (#) in front of any line (except the first) in the catalogue section to disable that directory. For more details, take a look at the Fonts HOWTO at http://www.linuxdoc.org. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Sridhar wrote: I noticed that you said in an earlier post that you had trouble importing your fonts. Have you tried using DrakFont (part of the Mandrake Control Centre)? Of course. It's a very limited tool, but it did make some TrueType fonts available to the system and some of the programs are using them for display. They do look better than the dreadful defaults used otherwise. But it's not enough for printing or serious work. You don't get an acceptable character set, only ISO 8859 that does not include true typographic apostrophes, quotation marks, and other important typographic characters. KFontInst should do what I need to do with both Type 1 and TrueType fonts and I'll be able to select a proper character set, but I'm still puzzling out how to do the preliminaries as described in the KFontInst manual. Do you know how to get rid of all those ugly fonts that are listed in DrakFont? I tried highlighting them and telling DrakFont to remove them, but it wouldn't. Didn't tell me why, either. I would keep a Helvetica, a Times, and a Courier from the screen fonts listed and would like to dump the rest. I have added several TrueTypes for screen display. --Judy Miner
Re: [newbie] curious ....
I fix other people's PC problems for a living, specifically Windows problems... no shortage of work there might I add ;-) . After seeing Linux pop up more and more on the net I thought it was time for me to learn something about this 'cool OS'. I can see more New Zealanders getting into Linux very soon, especially since M$ are using NZ as the guinea pig for their rip-off licensing scheme. Once I get the hang of Mandrake, I'll try a few other flavours and then hopefully I might be able to get other people interested enough to try Linux as well. Although, I must say, that most of the people I help can barely manage with Winblows so I figure the majority will shy away from Linux. Only time will tell. Will keep the list posted in due course as to the general user's opinion in this country anyway. Cheers Skinky
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Skinky wrote: I fix other people's PC problems for a living, specifically Windows problems... no shortage of work there might I add ;-) . After seeing Linux pop up more and more on the net I thought it was time for me to learn something about this 'cool OS'. I can see more New Zealanders getting into Linux very soon, especially since M$ are using NZ as the guinea pig for their rip-off licensing scheme. Once I get the hang of Mandrake, I'll try a few other flavours and then hopefully I might be able to get other people interested enough to try Linux as well. Although, I must say, that most of the people I help can barely manage with Winblows so I figure the majority will shy away from Linux. Only time will tell. Will keep the list posted in due course as to the general user's opinion in this country anyway. Cheers Skinky If you need to save on space with the different flavors for Linux, try using Partition Magic 6 for partitioning and System Commander 2000 to control which OS need to start up. As far as people shying away from Linux, they need to be informed. Once they have been informed, they will get a better grip on something new. And, you can mention that they wont be forced into buying upgrades or paying for maintenance fees. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility
Re: [newbie] curious ....
At 08.34 01/07/01, you wrote: I do a lot of home video editing the total cost of my own built machine is still 1/3 of what a high end Mac costs. Exclude the iMac which at their cheapest, or affordable if you like, is still a $1000 without a rebate. I don't use anything smaller than a 17 monitor since my eyes are going ka ka. The iMacs is not an appealing or an option for me personally. You could plug any monitor you want to the iMac. I like the PowerMacs but all of the ones I have seen even with rebates are still out of my range and many many people. I guess like any luxury if you willing to eat spam and bologne use the toothpaste until the tub is rolled flatter than paper than great. Just curios does anyone run Linux, without third party software, on a Mac? I saw a package claiming to run Red Hat Linux on any Mac. Just curios to see how that is done with or without a third party software. Linux on a Mac? stupid. Buy a PC it's cheaper!!!
Re: [newbie] curious ....
On Sunday 01 July 2001 03:30, Olaf Marzocchi wrote: At 08.34 01/07/01, you wrote: I do a lot of home video editing the total cost of my own built machine is still 1/3 of what a high end Mac costs. Exclude the iMac which at their cheapest, or affordable if you like, is still a $1000 without a rebate. I don't use anything smaller than a 17 monitor since my eyes are going ka ka. The iMacs is not an appealing or an option for me personally. You could plug any monitor you want to the iMac. I like the PowerMacs but all of the ones I have seen even with rebates are still out of my range and many many people. I guess like any luxury if you willing to eat spam and bologne use the toothpaste until the tub is rolled flatter than paper than great. Just curios does anyone run Linux, without third party software, on a Mac? I saw a package claiming to run Red Hat Linux on any Mac. Just curios to see how that is done with or without a third party software. Linux on a Mac? stupid. Buy a PC it's cheaper!!! not stupid. Mandrake for Power PC, and use broadcast 2000 for video editting smooth in my humble opinion. But truly expensive for the Power PC MAC. of course you can build a P4 PC with 512 megs ram and a uwscsi 2 hard drive that will do the editting even better (also in my opinion) for a few bucks less than buying the Power MAC
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
$.02: David E. Fox wrote: So far so good...some servers should be included, postfix / apache probably for starters. No need for innd,postgresd, etc. Again, the current installation profiles need to be tweaked - one shouldn't have to go for a server install to get a few necessary (plus some that aren't - depending on what you want to do) plus 'workstation' plus 'development' to get a basic workstation with some development and server capability -- which I think is what many want. Include Samba server and client, pre-setup to easily allow enabling of file and printer sharing, in both directions. Also, make sure standard installation: - Makes printing Just work (including to a shared remote printer on a Windows box) - Makes sound Just work - Makes CD burner Just work (including easy selection of DAO option -- maybe the default for audio CDs) - Provides good looking fonts (for any hardware) by default, allows easy selection of good looking alternates - Prominently displays list of hardware that works / does not work on the box (or booklet attached to box but readable before buying) (tough to do). - Starts (Free)Civ for a local single player game with one command (which starts client and server, starts game, and has a more about FreeCiv button that briefly explains that Civ on Linux includes a client and a server to make it easy to play multiplayer games over a network (or locally), but can make it a little confusing for someone who just want to play a local single player game. Someday you'll want to learn the commands to start the server and client separately, when you do press help_for_multiplayer. (Or have multiplayer be an option on a startup menu after you start Civ with the single command. Or, default to multiplayer, and ask How many players on this computer?, How many players on other computers?, and How many computer players?) (I guess I should send this to the FreeCiv list.) Randy Kramer
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
On Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:59, Michel Clasquin wrote: On Saturday 30 June 2001 10:35, Franki wrote: non-KDE/non-GNOMEapps: xmms - it looks like Winamp, sounds like winamp, it even uses winamp skins. A newie essential. XMMS is actually part of the GNOME project. It works equally well in KDE, however. Netscape/mozilla: for compatibility reasons xgalaga - just because Hehehe... Add xbill and freeciv to that! GIMP - Yes I know it is a Gnome app, but you could hardly not mention it separately, right? 4. No servers included in this distro. 5. market it as linux for windoze users... the power of linux with the ease of windows. (that may not appeal to us, ,but it will appeal to windoze users..) 6. possibly even a file manager that calls / (c drive) /home (my docs) and /usr (prog files) and /proc (linux) and /mnt/floppy (a drive) /mnt/cdrom (d drive) to help them feel at home, although thats proably overkill... NO g Additionally 7. Hide the root account even more than is being done already. Extensive use of kdesu is the key here. Package the root password as knowing a special secret code that lets you install new things rather than as just the password of some weird user called root. (Honey, do we know anyone called Root?) because it cuts down on alot of the reasons that linux is great, but it should still be done because its the best way to lure disgruntled windoze users over to the greener pastures.. Some good ideas here. Hope the mandrakeans are reading this forum. Hey, what was the name of Mandrake the Magician's sidekick again? Lothar, I think. How's that for a name: LotharLinux. Lothar was actually the old name of HardDrake, back in the Mandrake 7.0/7.1 days. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] curious ....
On Sat, 30 Jun 2001 19:55, steve campbell wrote: On Friday 29 June 2001 20:58, PENA FAMILY wrote: I agree comletely, Linux is still very young and developing. My twist on the car analogy is like this Windows is the average car which the vast majority drives and get from point A to point B. There are lemons depending on everything from quality and price but they get the larger slice of the consumer pie. Macintosh is the BMW and Mercedes...etc. You pay for the high quality and since everything is included your less likely to have problems again barring any X factors like quality control and bad management. Linux and other althernative OS, whichever term you want to use, is the kit car. The old Chevy or Ford you want to tweak to run and look like you want it to. You can remove the air conditioner to boost engine performance. Get rid of manufacturer settings again to get that boost you want. Doing whatever you want to make it run, look, and feel just the way you want and to reflect your individual personality. The only problem this is a small market there are problems with making those tweaks. You can problems but the point is to make the changes you want. LOLlinux is a formula-1 car, a right bloody nightmare to get used to but totally flexible and manouverable, not to mention fast as hell:) steve ( Obi-Juan Montoya)Campbell Please don't say the driver is Mikka Hakkinen (he's Finnish) -- I'm a Ferrari fan! P.S. As I write this Michael Schumacher is leading the French Grand Prix!!! -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Again, well said! Like any community, there are a variety of members with a variety of goals. Some of us would like to see Linux on the desktop be the OS of choice for normal people. I'd like to see that, and will be trying to help. From what I've heard, Mandrake is one of the distributions that has a similar goal (as does KDE, AFAIK (As Far As I Know).) Thanks for your letter! Randy Kramer (not a representative of Mandrake, just a user on the list) Judith Miner wrote: --other good stuff snipped Most people would have given up by now and just wiped Linux off the drive. I'll be posting my questions on this list and hope I'll find solutions for the problems that pop up every time I try to do something. I see wonderful potential in KDE, Gnome, and other desktops, but this thing is not ready for prime time. I hope things will get a bit more polished and complete by the time Windows XP is released because I think this may be THE moment of opportunity for Linux on the desktop.
RE: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
I think you guys are missing the point.. This is an install to woo windoze users, mandrake makes the mini router/firewall distro... why not a version that matches windows functionality without all the rest.. clients of everything, not servers they require configuration and in the end will make the distro pointless...you might as well get the full version... match the functionality of windows, and let them understand that before you give them the option of more... They can always buy a added functionality cd or download the rpms from a mandrake site dedicated to it... keep it simple, and they will come... (good marketing slogan actually :-) There is a HUGE need for a distro that doesn't offer so many options that it drives would be users away regards Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Randy Kramer Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2001 8:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake. $.02: David E. Fox wrote: So far so good...some servers should be included, postfix / apache probably for starters. No need for innd,postgresd, etc. Again, the current installation profiles need to be tweaked - one shouldn't have to go for a server install to get a few necessary (plus some that aren't - depending on what you want to do) plus 'workstation' plus 'development' to get a basic workstation with some development and server capability -- which I think is what many want. Include Samba server and client, pre-setup to easily allow enabling of file and printer sharing, in both directions. Also, make sure standard installation: - Makes printing Just work (including to a shared remote printer on a Windows box) - Makes sound Just work - Makes CD burner Just work (including easy selection of DAO option -- maybe the default for audio CDs) - Provides good looking fonts (for any hardware) by default, allows easy selection of good looking alternates - Prominently displays list of hardware that works / does not work on the box (or booklet attached to box but readable before buying) (tough to do). - Starts (Free)Civ for a local single player game with one command (which starts client and server, starts game, and has a more about FreeCiv button that briefly explains that Civ on Linux includes a client and a server to make it easy to play multiplayer games over a network (or locally), but can make it a little confusing for someone who just want to play a local single player game. Someday you'll want to learn the commands to start the server and client separately, when you do press help_for_multiplayer. (Or have multiplayer be an option on a startup menu after you start Civ with the single command. Or, default to multiplayer, and ask How many players on this computer?, How many players on other computers?, and How many computer players?) (I guess I should send this to the FreeCiv list.) Randy Kramer
RE: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
Maybe a tiny floppy app, that can probe a windows system and give a report of what is likely to work with linux and what isn't ... then give heaps of the disks to mandrake resellers, so people can try one in thier computers before buying the winlinux distro just a thought, or you could make the same file downloadable on lotsa we sites.. would be handy to have a windows app that queries windows system/device-manager to look for compliant/non compliant devices and print a little report to screen... thats something that even more experianced linux users would find handy sometimes.. just more of my inane thoughts.. my apologies.. :-) regards Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of David E. Fox Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 2:54 AM To: Randy Kramer Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake. Include Samba server and client, pre-setup to easily allow enabling of file and printer sharing, in both directions. Oh yes. Many will want that. - Makes printing Just work (including to a shared remote printer on a Windows box) - Makes sound Just work - Makes CD burner Just work (including easy selection of DAO option -- maybe the default for audio CDs) OK for printing and sound - go for CUPS. Personally sond printing have worked out of the box for me, others' mileages may vary, of course. I don't have a CD burner, but I do know there are a few different programs that do this task differently, perhaps equally well, I don't know. But pick one, and roll its code into Konqueror, and let people burn CD's from inside the file manager. After all, you work with disks / floppies the same way, why should CD's be different? - Provides good looking fonts (for any hardware) by default, allows easy selection of good looking alternates I agree in principle, but many good fonts are copyrighted, and the free ones don't always look too good. I've been to a few free sites and they have some interesting fonts there, but not ones you would want to use in business correspondence. (Personally, 99% of my 'formal' correspondence is done in either Palatino or New Century Schoolbook, and the major WPs that I use provide those fonts.) I figure most people on Windows just use Arial because it's the default, but it doesn't look too good either :). And why provide so many conflicting fonts - I mean, there's 100dpi, 75dpi, unscaled fonts, scaleable fonts, Cyrillic fonts, etc. I know they have their uses, but they probably don't all need to be included in a scaled-down 'newbie' distribution. And while we're on the subject of fonts, how about documentation? The current thing seems to be to provide it in a slew of differing formats - I mean there's DVI howtos, PS howtos, html howtos, info-based documentation (that requires 'info', natch), man pages, DocBook stuff, etc., etc. It would be nice if all this stuff could all be in the same format, and generated on the fly when needed (I've always thought the idea of separating man and cat pages, and deleting unused cat pages since they could always be reconstructed was a good way of doing things). - Prominently displays list of hardware that works / does not work on the box (or booklet attached to box but readable before buying) (tough to do). You might need a rather large booklet actually. :) But if you look at the lists, there are a lot of questions about such and such a thing, like Winmodems, wondering if or whether these will be supported. Having a bright red sticker on the box warning: doesn't work with Winmodems may be helpful, and it may not be. It might be better to have a few known working configurations, and steer the person in the direction of those configurations. (Scenario: user goes into computer store, gets a copy of this distribution. On the back cover is a suggested list of components - user goes around the store with a shopping cart, picks up the components, and takes it over to the service counter to be assembled.) The way to beat MS at their own game is to just not buy branded 'assembled' computer systems. After all, people have for a long time bought stereo components. - Starts (Free)Civ for a local single player game with one command (which starts client and server, starts game, and has a more about FreeCiv button that briefly explains that Civ on Linux includes a the hell with that -- I want Monopoly! :) Actually I was at my mom's house playing Parker Brothers' monopoly on a windows box yesterday -- it can be played either single player (with computerized opponents) or it can be quickly configured (separate menu option) to play multiplayer over the internet. And it's done as a single component, not (perhaps) haphazardly with different binaries with different options, depending on how you want to play. Randy Kramer David E. Fox
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
Frank wrote: There is a HUGE need for a distro that doesn't offer so many options that it drives would be users away I think you have many good ideas, but speaking as a Windows user who has recently installed Mandrake 8, it wasn't the large number of options that is the problem, but the unfinished business of the GUI after you get the thing installed. The first time I installed, I chose the default options for my own purposes and did not pick and choose individual programs. I reinstalled Linux in a couple of days because I felt I didn't know what was on the system. I've always done Custom Installs of all my Windows programs (including Windows itself!) and I don't like to depend on what other people think I should have. So I reinstalled Linux with a custom installation and went through the entire programs list in the Mandrake graphical installer. I was, frankly, much happier with that because I had a better idea of what was available and what I did and did not want. I think it would be fine for something like the Mandrake installer to offer an additional option called Basic that would include a pre-selected, limited number of programs. A user can always install others after using the system for a bit. The real problems come after you start using Linux--or trying to. I still haven't gotten my system set up to the stage where I can try some productivity apps for real. My current problem is getting my Type 1 and TrueType fonts installed and available to the programs I want to use. This is one of the roughest edges of Linux on the desktop. Its font handling is abstruse, unfriendly, poor, and just plain weird. It's totally different from Windows or the Mac. Where is something like Adobe Type Manager when we need it? Even in my Windows 3.0 days, my PostScript fonts were rasterized correctly for the screen and printer (PostScript or not) and they were available seamlessly to all my applications that were font-capable. I find it astonishing that fonts seem to be an afterthought on the Linux desktop. Gajillions of often-ugly screen fonts get installed. How can I dump them? All they do is make for a long font list of useless junk. It's hard to find the necessary information because context-sensitive help isn't here yet. Another example of something that is unacceptable as it stands now: the first time I tried to eject a Zip disk, it wouldn't go. First I got scared that it was stuck in the drive (an ATAPI internal). Then I thought I'd try doing an eject command in a console. Somehow that worked--I don't know how I figured out how to include the /mnt/zip qualifier. Eventually I kinda sorta figured out how to deal with Zip disks, which get mounted through the supermount feature in Mandrake 8, but still have to be unmounted by root in order to eject them. Doubtless, I could fix that up so user could do it--but I don't know how. I also don't know where to look and the directions would have to be in something other than geekspeak, which is probably an unrealistic expectation.g I could give you a list of other things that would quickly drive would-be users away, as you put it. I think they could all be solved, probably in short order if some distro truly wanted to appeal to Windows users who want to become Linux users but not techies. I don't think it's too many choices that drive people away, but an interface that is too thin and quickly leaves the unprepared user in the clutches of long, obscure command lines. This won't fly, folks. No matter how wonderful the underlying architecture is, it has to be easy to use to have a chance of succeeding as a desktop OS. --Judy Miner
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Michael, Thanks for recounting how Linux has become more user friendly since your Slackware 2.x days. Though I have just started using Linux, I've followed it over a few years and installed it now because I thought it was finally reaching the point where a normal person could use it. I've found it easy to install and I had no trouble configuring the dialer and connecting with my ISP. The browsers are working fine, I downloaded and installed Opera in addition to the ones that came on the CDs. I looked at but did not set up a couple of e-mail clients, and could kiss Windows good-bye if browsing were the only thing I did. I just need to get my security firmed up and will try the suggestion posted on this list, for which I thank you and others. linux still has some problems for the average user, but at the same time it has been rapidly progressing since the command-line based Slackware 2/3 days. I agree and look forward to the progress of the next few months. Let's all hope that by the time Windows XP comes out, Linux will make more strides toward user friendliness because I do think more Windows users will be looking for a way out of Microsoft's clutches. --Judy Miner
Re: [newbie] curious ....
I don't think it is a matter of perference as much as it is a matter of what Linux really is. Linux is a networking os just like any UNIX or UNIX clone. Whwn dealing with networking OSes, you need user groups, root access, etc. We can write to each other all we want about changing how Linux works, but folks, Windows 2000 has its users, user group, administrator (root), etc. Anytime you deal with an networking OS you will have all of that. COuld they make a single user version of Linux? No. Linux is POSIX compliant and it will lose that in the change. Even though we are all newto Linux, don't you think we owe it to the Linux community in general to read up on it and see what it is all about, instead of just jumping in and then thrashing it because it isn't Windows? On Sunday 01 July 2001 14:10, tazmun wrote: I echo Judith's concerns 100 %. I think there are many here who desperately want to keep Linux as sort of an elite OS(and free) status that eliminates many users simply because of it's complexity. To keep Linux where it is right now...maybe that works and maybe it doesn'tbut to companies that are trying to promote Linux like Mandrake who eventually hope to make a buck somewhere along the line, I think they will fold their tent and go elsewhere if progress is not being made, and by progress I mean becoming a serious competitor for windoze. Not only for the OS but also the desktop. To do this we have to go with mainstream user concepts I think which I feel the other writer, Judith, is a fairly good representative of. But it goes beyond my preferences to just plain common business sense in my opinion. Unfortunately the part we all hate is hiding around this corner too, just like windoze it will be all about dollars. But with real competition at least it hopefully won't get out of control like Microsoft did. Tazmun - Original Message - From: Judith Miner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] curious I'm wondering about FreeBSD or MAC OS X any potential competition there? ... any way to combat the OS monopolistic intent of M$? I installed my first Linux OS about 10 days ago on a spare computer (headed for my grandchildren soon) so I could try it out before I put in a dual boot with Win 98SE on my real computer in my home office. I liked it enough that I did install Mandrake 8 on my home office computer a week ago. The spare computer will have its hard drive wiped and I'll put back 98SE before the computer goes to the grandchildren (ages 5, 3, and 7 months). I am a very experienced and proficient Windows user but have no interest in doing my own programming. I dislike command lines and want a well-designed, stable, flexible GUI that leaves me in charge of my own computer. I am fed up with Microsoft, which becomes more and more oppressive and aggressive, and I fervently hope never to buy another Microsoft OS. However, I have work to do and any alternative OS has to let me do what I need to and want to without a lot of hassles. I run a small nonprofit organization, so I have to do general office things like maintain a small database, design new, small databases as needed, manage finances through Quicken, use a small spreadsheet once a year, do business correspondence, maintain Web pages, design posters for publicity, and write and produce lots of publications, such as newsletters, brochures, pamphlets, and booklets. For personal use, I need an up-to-date e-mail client and a few up-to-date Web browsers, I use Mastercook for my recipe collection, I do a lot of graphics work with CorelDraw, Photoshop LE, Photoshop Elements, PhotoPaint, other graphics programs, I have a serious greeting card hobby and have 11 greeting card programs for ideas and a source of graphics and verses (I make the actual cards in CorelDraw). I have numerous other consumer-type programs, several dictionaries and encyclopedias and other reference works, over 2000 Type 1 and TrueType fonts, and a large collection of photos and clip art. Unless I can run these things or their equivalents under Linux, I'll always need a Windows partition. I really want Linux to work out as a desktop system for me. I think it has the potential, but so far my experience is that Linux-on-the-desktop is incomplete, has rough edges all over the place, and is desperately unfriendly once you have to get beneath the surface. Its geeky origins are obvious and frankly, Linux will never make it to the mainstream unless it is shepherded by developers who comprehend and enthusiastically embrace what normal people want in the interface to their OS. From my almost-two-weeks of membership on this list, I am seeing confirmed what I've noticed time after time on anything related to Linux: its biggest boosters live in a world of their own
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
Two good ideas! Randy Kramer Franki wrote: Maybe a tiny floppy app, that can probe a windows system and give a report of what is likely to work with linux and what isn't ... then give heaps of the disks to mandrake resellers, so people can try one in thier computers before buying the winlinux distro just a thought, or you could make the same file downloadable on lotsa we sites.. would be handy to have a windows app that queries windows system/device-manager to look for compliant/non compliant devices and print a little report to screen...
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Microsoft is considered a great company by many; it can be argued that they are great because of innovative ideas ... Will .NET be considered amazing by many? Will Windows XP succeed? Can one honestly say that Micro$soft has such a huge presence mostly because of unfair business practices? Their goal is to have as much power in as many areas of computer technology as possible. While some of their tactics have been illegal, the same amount of time has elapsed for *every company to have innovative ideas. Along with power, the Company has amassed a great deal of money ... research and development over the years has produced innovative ideas, and * some cut-throat business practices (not ALL) which have been difficult to stop...but what keeps them legit, I guess, (I'm only trying to be objective here ... I'm just an inexperienced person curious about computers who is jumping on the linux bandwagon with not a lot of ease, having a real problem with the M$ monopoly) is their innovation. It seems a bit unfair to say that M$ has not been innovative, both from a marketing and technological standpoint. BUT ... I hope that in the future, kids, adults, businesses, *everyone will experience a world where Micro$oft NO LONGER has an enormous share in *everything related to computers, and where there are many more companies that can call themselves no less dominant than Micro$oft. Rita linux still has some problems for the average user, but at the same time it has been rapidly progressing since the command-line based Slackware 2/3 days. I agree and look forward to the progress of the next few months. Let's all hope that by the time Windows XP comes out, Linux will make more strides toward user friendliness because I do think more Windows users will be looking for a way out of Microsoft's clutches. --Judy Miner __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Well the breakup was supposed to be a remedy for M$ business cut throat business practices and antitrust violations. Looks like it is not going to happen now. Jeanette - Original Message - From: Rita F. Koenigs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] curious At this time I see no objective reason for splitting up Microsoft ... what purpose will it serve? And why is Bill Gates so dead-set against it? What's the threat? Is it just a comfort-level thing? A nuisance change that he's concerned about? Or is it a huge threat to their monopoly? In fact, the remedy is seen as tepid by some people who are not M$ fans. Perhaps the latest suit is not a strong one are there ones that are? But litigation is such a slow and contentious process, I just think M$ is able to play that game better than anyone else (sounds painfully familiar). Has anyone really figured out a market that hasn't been tapped yet, within the industry, that Microsoft hasn't and will not be able to steal? Maybe better innovation is the answer, not litigation. Just wondering. The only real desktop option out there is the Mac thinking of kids, adults, etc and it seems that there needs to be more of an effort by others to become more user-friendly. There just doesn't seem to be a huge market out there for power users or even curious users who are willing to struggle through what seems like techie, hard-to-understand-on-a-higher-level-than it says so in the manual attempts to solve *many wierd techie problems. It's a shame about the IMAC not cutting it for people beyond the fanatical ... what are you basing that opinion on, besides what you see personally? I would *love to see a product that will give a lot of people a highly usable alternative to M$, because I dislike their tactics. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
RE: [newbie] curious ....
The reason they don't want to be split, is because then their application branch would be forced to compete with their competitors on an even footing, and no more bundling Microsoft versions of competitors apps in the windows OS, since their current app people would no longer be working for the same company that writes the windows OS that was the idea behind spliting up Ms.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeanette Russo Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 7:19 AM To: Rita F. Koenigs; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious Well the breakup was supposed to be a remedy for M$ business cut throat business practices and antitrust violations. Looks like it is not going to happen now. Jeanette - Original Message - From: Rita F. Koenigs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] curious At this time I see no objective reason for splitting up Microsoft ... what purpose will it serve? And why is Bill Gates so dead-set against it? What's the threat? Is it just a comfort-level thing? A nuisance change that he's concerned about? Or is it a huge threat to their monopoly? In fact, the remedy is seen as tepid by some people who are not M$ fans. Perhaps the latest suit is not a strong one are there ones that are? But litigation is such a slow and contentious process, I just think M$ is able to play that game better than anyone else (sounds painfully familiar). Has anyone really figured out a market that hasn't been tapped yet, within the industry, that Microsoft hasn't and will not be able to steal? Maybe better innovation is the answer, not litigation. Just wondering. The only real desktop option out there is the Mac thinking of kids, adults, etc and it seems that there needs to be more of an effort by others to become more user-friendly. There just doesn't seem to be a huge market out there for power users or even curious users who are willing to struggle through what seems like techie, hard-to-understand-on-a-higher-level-than it says so in the manual attempts to solve *many wierd techie problems. It's a shame about the IMAC not cutting it for people beyond the fanatical ... what are you basing that opinion on, besides what you see personally? I would *love to see a product that will give a lot of people a highly usable alternative to M$, because I dislike their tactics. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
On Sunday 01 July 2001 05:06 pm, Judith Miner wrote: Frank wrote: There is a HUGE need for a distro that doesn't offer so many options that it drives would be users away I think you have many good ideas, but speaking as a Windows user who has recently installed Mandrake 8, it wasn't the large number of options that is the problem, but the unfinished business of the GUI after you get the thing installed. The first time I installed, I chose the default options for my own purposes and did not pick and choose individual programs. I reinstalled Linux in a couple of days because I felt I didn't know what was on the system. I've always done Custom Installs of all my Windows programs (including Windows itself!) and I don't like to depend on what other people think I should have. So I reinstalled Linux with a custom installation and went through the entire programs list in the Mandrake graphical installer. I was, frankly, much happier with that because I had a better idea of what was available and what I did and did not want. I think it would be fine for something like the Mandrake installer to offer an additional option called Basic that would include a pre-selected, limited number of programs. A user can always install others after using the system for a bit. The real problems come after you start using Linux--or trying to. I still haven't gotten my system set up to the stage where I can try some productivity apps for real. My current problem is getting my Type 1 and TrueType fonts installed and available to the programs I want to use. This is one of the roughest edges of Linux on the desktop. Its font handling is abstruse, unfriendly, poor, and just plain weird. It's totally different from Windows or the Mac. Where is something like Adobe Type Manager when we need it? Even in my Windows 3.0 days, my PostScript fonts were rasterized correctly for the screen and printer (PostScript or not) and they were available seamlessly to all my applications that were font-capable. I find it astonishing that fonts seem to be an afterthought on the Linux desktop. Gajillions of often-ugly screen fonts get installed. How can I dump them? All they do is make for a long font list of useless junk. It's hard to find the necessary information because context-sensitive help isn't here yet. Another example of something that is unacceptable as it stands now: the first time I tried to eject a Zip disk, it wouldn't go. First I got scared that it was stuck in the drive (an ATAPI internal). Then I thought I'd try doing an eject command in a console. Somehow that worked--I don't know how I figured out how to include the /mnt/zip qualifier. Eventually I kinda sorta figured out how to deal with Zip disks, which get mounted through the supermount feature in Mandrake 8, but still have to be unmounted by root in order to eject them. Doubtless, I could fix that up so user could do it--but I don't know how. I also don't know where to look and the directions would have to be in something other than geekspeak, which is probably an unrealistic expectation.g I could give you a list of other things that would quickly drive would-be users away, as you put it. I think they could all be solved, probably in short order if some distro truly wanted to appeal to Windows users who want to become Linux users but not techies. I don't think it's too many choices that drive people away, but an interface that is too thin and quickly leaves the unprepared user in the clutches of long, obscure command lines. This won't fly, folks. No matter how wonderful the underlying architecture is, it has to be easy to use to have a chance of succeeding as a desktop OS. --Judy Miner Judy, A good portion of what you have mentioned has been covered in the Mandrake archives. People are working on these features and more than can mentioned in a few brief emails. Rather than stepping on the gas and trying to drive 100 miles an hour, I think it would be a good idea to get a good book on Linux, sit back and do some reading. Then, if you have additional questions, people would be more than happy to help you out. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Kmailer by Tux
Re: [newbie] curious ....
The experts agree that splitting would be bad. You would wid up with two gaint powerhouses rather than one. I think that fining them ten billion dollars would do the trick, Then double it everytime they are violate any agreements. They may be the richest company out there, but they have shareholders to answer too. On Sunday 01 July 2001 20:23, Franki wrote: The reason they don't want to be split, is because then their application branch would be forced to compete with their competitors on an even footing, and no more bundling Microsoft versions of competitors apps in the windows OS, since their current app people would no longer be working for the same company that writes the windows OS that was the idea behind spliting up Ms.. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jeanette Russo Sent: Monday, 2 July 2001 7:19 AM To: Rita F. Koenigs; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious Well the breakup was supposed to be a remedy for M$ business cut throat business practices and antitrust violations. Looks like it is not going to happen now. Jeanette - Original Message - From: Rita F. Koenigs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] curious At this time I see no objective reason for splitting up Microsoft ... what purpose will it serve? And why is Bill Gates so dead-set against it? What's the threat? Is it just a comfort-level thing? A nuisance change that he's concerned about? Or is it a huge threat to their monopoly? In fact, the remedy is seen as tepid by some people who are not M$ fans. Perhaps the latest suit is not a strong one are there ones that are? But litigation is such a slow and contentious process, I just think M$ is able to play that game better than anyone else (sounds painfully familiar). Has anyone really figured out a market that hasn't been tapped yet, within the industry, that Microsoft hasn't and will not be able to steal? Maybe better innovation is the answer, not litigation. Just wondering. The only real desktop option out there is the Mac thinking of kids, adults, etc and it seems that there needs to be more of an effort by others to become more user-friendly. There just doesn't seem to be a huge market out there for power users or even curious users who are willing to struggle through what seems like techie, hard-to-understand-on-a-higher-level-than it says so in the manual attempts to solve *many wierd techie problems. It's a shame about the IMAC not cutting it for people beyond the fanatical ... what are you basing that opinion on, besides what you see personally? I would *love to see a product that will give a lot of people a highly usable alternative to M$, because I dislike their tactics. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
Excellent answer! On Sunday 01 July 2001 20:29, Romanator wrote: Judy, A good portion of what you have mentioned has been covered in the Mandrake archives. People are working on these features and more than can mentioned in a few brief emails. Rather than stepping on the gas and trying to drive 100 miles an hour, I think it would be a good idea to get a good book on Linux, sit back and do some reading. Then, if you have additional questions, people would be more than happy to help you out. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Kmailer by Tux
Re: [newbie] curious ....
On Sunday 01 July 2001 12:55 pm, Randy Kramer wrote: Again, well said! Like any community, there are a variety of members with a variety of goals. Some of us would like to see Linux on the desktop be the OS of choice for normal people. I'd like to see that, and will be trying to help. From what I've heard, Mandrake is one of the distributions that has a similar goal (as does KDE, AFAIK (As Far As I Know).) Thanks for your letter! Randy Kramer (not a representative of Mandrake, just a user on the list) Judith Miner wrote: --other good stuff snipped Most people would have given up by now and just wiped Linux off the drive. I'll be posting my questions on this list and hope I'll find solutions for the problems that pop up every time I try to do something. I see wonderful potential in KDE, Gnome, and other desktops, but this thing is not ready for prime time. I hope things will get a bit more polished and complete by the time Windows XP is released because I think this may be THE moment of opportunity for Linux on the desktop. I'm sure you will find over the next several versions that Linux Mandrake will provide an option for all users. Just keep the constructive cristicism coming folks. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Kmailer by Tux
Re: [newbie] curious ....
On Sunday 01 July 2001 02:02 pm, you wrote: On Sunday 01 July 2001 12:55 pm, Randy Kramer wrote: Again, well said! Like any community, there are a variety of members with a variety of goals. Some of us would like to see Linux on the desktop be the OS of choice for normal people. I'd like to see that, and will be trying to help. From what I've heard, Mandrake is one of the distributions that has a similar goal (as does KDE, AFAIK (As Far As I Know).) Thanks for your letter! Randy Kramer (not a representative of Mandrake, just a user on the list) Judith Miner wrote: --other good stuff snipped Most people would have given up by now and just wiped Linux off the drive. I'll be posting my questions on this list and hope I'll find solutions for the problems that pop up every time I try to do something. I see wonderful potential in KDE, Gnome, and other desktops, but this thing is not ready for prime time. I hope things will get a bit more polished and complete by the time Windows XP is released because I think this may be THE moment of opportunity for Linux on the desktop. I'm sure you will find over the next several versions of Linux OS, Linux Mandrake will provide an option for all users. Just keep the constructive criticism coming folks. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Kmailer by Tux
Re: [newbie] curious ....
With all due respect I keep hearing that remark about Apple. That initially it is expensive but in the long run you save money. Frankly, a BMW and Volvo are expensive at first but in the long with the quality and safety you save money. Of course you have to be able to afford it. You either have the large down payment and make those large monthly payment or you have the credit line. I do a lot of home video editing the total cost of my own built machine is still 1/3 of what a high end Mac costs. Exclude the iMac which at their cheapest, or affordable if you like, is still a $1000 without a rebate. I don't use anything smaller than a 17 monitor since my eyes are going ka ka. The iMacs is not an appealing or an option for me personally. I like the PowerMacs but all of the ones I have seen even with rebates are still out of my range and many many people. I guess like any luxury if you willing to eat spam and bologne use the toothpaste until the tub is rolled flatter than paper than great. Just curios does anyone run Linux, without third party software, on a Mac? I saw a package claiming to run Red Hat Linux on any Mac. Just curios to see how that is done with or without a third party software.
Re: [newbie] curious ....
LOL...on the bicycle as your alternative mode of transportation. I see nothing wrong with command line but most are daunted by it and could careless if they ever learn it. I don't see the futue dealing much with command line and GUIs. As long as Linux offers what it has now without going completely GUI like Mac and Windows then its future is secured. Realistically, though if you think about it Mandrake and others won't just deliver to the this crowd indefintely. They want to tap into the larger pie of PC consumers. I keep thinking that eventually Linux will be as plain as any Window flavor. Just a an opinion please no hate mail. I have already been banned by Window and Mac newsgroups I might end up creating my own little OS just to have someone to talk to.lol By the way here is an irony. Just as I was typing the above Linux I had a bug with my wireless keyboard, literally a bug. Well, struck me as funny as heck personally.
Re: [newbie] curious ....
This is a good post. People constructively discussing an issue with out a lot of the mess that has gone in the past when Micro$HAFT has been mentioned. But I will agree with some of the things said, understand some others, and just simply comment on others. Linux is sort of a Hippie sort of get up. I never thought of it like that, but in a way you can see the comparison. Which personally I don't think much is wrong with that. Some people do take things to an extreme, but so do other Mac users, so do other Windows users. The truth is, there's an OS for everything. Mac has always been about graphics. I don't care how good you are with GIMP, even my sister the GIMP master who can do some crazy things with an image, Mac still rules the graphical world. I mean from the start of it all! Windows as been the corporate OS for some time. Damn near every company in the world is a Microsoft Partner! They get free software from them, but they shell out tons of money paying for new licenses and database tools. How many of you haven't been to a job that wasn't dominated by NT servers? Linux is for the techie hippies! lol The people that love to dive in and tear things apart because they can, then see if they can't put it back together. Hell I remember being 10 taking apart an alarm clock my Father gave me. Saying Fix it if you can. I didn't unplug the damn thing so when I grabbed the wrong wire and my hair stood straight up, I learned! But magically the thing worked after I put it back together! The car comparison I can't agree with though. I mean every body's experience is different. As is the case with cars themselves. In my experience I'd call Windows a Ford. It can look good sometimes, but the thing's just going to break down on you very shortly, and often for no reason. I don't know that I could really compare a Mac to a car at all. But I've always felt it was a woman, or a child's machine. Now I know that may sound bad at first, but I'll explain. They are now built to be attractive. Eye catching. Most people I know with PCs have the box itself in a corner or under a desk where nobody can see it. Meanwhile the Mac just screams Look at me! The mouse and keyboard are much smaller. And seem as if they were more suited for a smaller hand, of a woman or a child. Having worked with Macs around the time the G3 was being released, working with that small mouse hurt my hands. The keyboard was about the size of a laptop keyboard, and that doesn't work for somebody that has big hands. The machine itself never crashed on me, but it was just uncomfortable to use. I understand that now you can order better mice and better keyboards, but I see an iMac with the tie-dyed colors and I just picture it in a dorm room of two college girls saying it's cute. Linux I'm not sure what to call other then we're comparable to a bunch of hippies! :0) But I still believe Linux was built for everybody. It's built for power users that love the use of the console. Being very sound for script writing, web servers, FTP servers, and the like. I like being able to ssh to another machine, then open a GUI such as NEdit to edit a file on that machine. It then opens the GUI on my local desktop to edit it. Windows can't do that. There's the GUI for those that are more point and click oriented. And that doesn't mean they're not as accomplished users as the console experts. I have however noticed that sort of attitude being directed to those people. I've caught myself doing that myself, and that's not fair. But as somebody said, some GUIs are just not friendly. They're awkward and just simply suck. Whether they're just ugly, or just not functional. Meanwhile some of them are quite nice, and I use them. But I'll still most likely type the command in a console. :0) But everybody has their own way of using a machine. Just as they did in Windows or Mac previously. All bashing aside, when I compare the OS' that I've used, Linux is the one for me. I can do more, longer, with out worrying about saving my work because the system crashes. Or it not allowing me to do 20 different things at a time. I mean checking email once every 4 minutes, 2 telnet/ssh sessions open, and research in a Internet Explorer on a Windows machine will crash! On my Linux box, I can do that times 3 or more, and the only problem I run into is that Netscape just really sucks since AOL took over! Over the past 3 months, the only reason I had to reboot my workstation was for new hardware, or testing the new kernel I compiled. Today alone, only having worked on my lone Windows machine for 4 hours, I was forced to reboot the machine 3 times. Uncle Bill just can't build an OS that can keep up with me. But there's my $2. (Not saying it's worth more then others posts, just mine was much longer then $0.02! :0) tdh -- T. Holmes - UNIXTECHS.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Real Men Us Vi! Uptime:
Re: [newbie] curious
It was Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:15:17 -0400 when Bryan Tyson wrote: On Friday 29 June 2001 17:32, Mandrake wrote: But winblows crashes And don't forget this ridiculous plan they have for Windows XP to lock it to one particular computer. This one should have people switching to Linux in droves. Ah, yes! The ultimate in customer relations!! hehehe -- I prefer rogues to imbeciles, because they sometimes take a rest. -Alexandre Dumas (fils) http://nlpagan.net - Registered Linux User 174403 Linux Mandrake 8.0 - Sylpheed 0.4.99 ** http://www.care2.com - when you care **
RE: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
the consequences of dabbling with stuff they are not ready to understand... they just screwed it up by makin alot of bad choices and software of dubious stability we are offering the linux equiv of winblows 2000 advanced server to the average newbie, who can blame them if they think its way too complicated.??? anyway, thats my opinion, if I am ever in a position to do something like this, I would at the drop of a hat.. it would be a labour of love for me to create something that could intice thousands upon thousands of newbies to the joy of linux.. And if someone does do this, MS would really be in trouble... (I personally think Mandrake are the best people to do it because they have demonstraited time and again that they have a talent for making hard things easier and easy things dead easy...) regards Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of John Sent: Saturday, 30 June 2001 11:50 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 29 June 2001 06:50 pm, you wrote: snip Many of you have provided so much help to us newbies but your past experience and with some of you with a formal UNIX education go through command lines as if they were just plain englsih(or perspective native language). Personally, I don't get excited and find command lines boring and unnecessary. With a GUI it is point and click and so on. It is not lazy or an aide to the stupid. Frankly, not everyone who has a car wants a manual transmission or work on it to make the adjustment so that car runs the way the owner wants it to. I've no formal computer training. I got a computer 6 years ago, and just started playing with it. Seeing's how I live way out in the woods, there was nobody around to 'teach' me right from wrong...so you can imagine the tough times I had of it. It was Winblows 95, then 98SE snip I love Linux but I can honestly say as unbias observer Linux is not for the common person. So far all the usrs I have encountered are techies, wanna be techies, hackers(as in enjoyers of software and not a cracker) and those with a formal UNIX education. As Linux moves to become easier I think it is losing that thing that has given the rise and recognition. Still though evolution has a funny way of throwing a monkey wrench into the mix now and then. I am curious to see what the future holds for all OS. I consider myself a 'common person'. I'm a construction carpenter. I love to cuss and cut-up with my buddies, get lit dern near every night, and get into fights almost every weekend. I might be considered somewhat geeky...by someone in a big city I suppose, because I also repair computers in my spare time, yet no one around here even uses the term 'geek'...it's damn near a foreign word. So...I used Winblows, and got used to it, but ever since about 3 months ago, I've been playing with Linux (LM 8.0) and rarely boot into Win anymore, other than to play a game or two, but even that is becoming boring and costly. Anyway, as just one of the 'little people', I can say 'screw winblows' and their monopolistic, greedy, snobbish ways (I actually wanted to put it a good bit harsher than that...mutter), if they can't take good, decent competition without using poor taste and even poorer sportsmanship and honesty, then they've lost another person who's 'smartened' up...Me. Sorry for carrying this thread along, but this dumb 'desktop' and 'common, everyday computer user' thing not being right with Linux is just pure BS. Plain and simple. John Berger -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7PUxkwYUef9J3TjQRAg3xAJ9/nwB95xMa1g/Zh0EkwT9jm5qZuwCeORlG Fydth8vz/bWe7vQMrVoXPMY= =ROms -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [newbie] curious ....
I think it is great and I haven't been black listed so farlol I am just expressing a thought but I am certainly not bashing Linux anymore or less than Mac and Windows. I have gotten alot out of this mailing. Even though there is the occassional upset Linux user who might interpet it otherwise.
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
Whoa, just to clarify my comment I meant nothing about Linux being suitable for the desktop or for the average user, whatever that might be. Just for the record I think of Linux as a much more sophisticated and complex OS than Windows and Mac. By no means do I think otherwise. It is not an easy click and go as can claim Mac. It isn't what most PC users use and care to know. I am glad it is exists as an option. But a standard would simplify Linux and create a large community among different distros as it started out to be. Now though it seems that they are all drifting apart. I have heard about this kind of suggestion and the vast majority of response are very angry in tone. I guess some don't like Linux being changed from what it is now. There are of course exceptions to every rule. Things are a little disorderly but I hope things will work themselves out.
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Greatsuggestion for Mandrake.
On Saturday 30 June 2001 10:35, Franki wrote: Hi all, think about it.. take one mdk install, remove all servers and the multiple apps of the same apps, settle on one for each,, one word processor, one spreadsheet, one text editor,, one of everthing... except games, of course settle on just Gnome or KDE, nothing else.. (probably KDE as its just that bit more like win blows to look at) but with the loser's essential libraries all loaded and ready to go. no choice of console or X at boot, make it always boot to GUI... check they could call it Mandrake Linux for Windows users. Youi like getting sued by Microsoft, then? Bad idea. - winblows asks you if you want to install a notepad.. - Linux asks you how many different text editors you want to install, or I know, I know. I installed mdk 7.2, and mdk 8 came out before I had even gotten around to trying out all the ftp clients! It has so many extra featurs over windoze,, consider the following.. Here is what is needed.. 1. A current 2.4 kernel... 2. a poll to ask everyones opinion on what is the easiest most useful of each app type that should be included in this distro. 3. One of each app type only... use the above poll to determine what app should be chosen for each app type. OK, I'll bite. Here are my suggestions: Since we are basing this discussion on a KDE setup, it seems logical to use KDE apps unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. So, we are talking Kwrite, kppp, Konqueror etc etc The reverse of this would apply if we were to go for a GNOME desktop, of course. The only real problem is that KOffice is IMHO not quite ready yet (though there are some interesting rumours about the next version going around). So if we are going to bundle an office suite, it will most likely have to be star office - but i have just downloaded some alpha code for Ability Office for Linux to look at, so that range is expanding a bit. That one will probably not be free though. Which raises another question: is this new distro to be like Debian - puritstically free in all respects, or can it contain non-GPL free-beer and even commercial software? non-KDE/non-GNOMEapps: xmms - it looks like Winamp, sounds like winamp, it even uses winamp skins. A newie essential. Netscape/mozilla: for compatibility reasons xgalaga - just because GIMP - Yes I know it is a Gnome app, but you could hardly not mention it separately, right? 4. No servers included in this distro. 5. market it as linux for windoze users... the power of linux with the ease of windows. (that may not appeal to us, ,but it will appeal to windoze users..) 6. possibly even a file manager that calls / (c drive) /home (my docs) and /usr (prog files) and /proc (linux) and /mnt/floppy (a drive) /mnt/cdrom (d drive) to help them feel at home, although thats proably overkill... NO g Additionally 7. Hide the root account even more than is being done already. Extensive use of kdesu is the key here. Package the root password as knowing a special secret code that lets you install new things rather than as just the password of some weird user called root. (Honey, do we know anyone called Root?) because it cuts down on alot of the reasons that linux is great, but it should still be done because its the best way to lure disgruntled windoze users over to the greener pastures.. Some good ideas here. Hope the mandrakeans are reading this forum. Hey, what was the name of Mandrake the Magician's sidekick again? Lothar, I think. How's that for a name: LotharLinux. -- Michel Clasquin, D Litt et Phil (Unisa) [EMAIL PROTECTED]/unisa.ac.za http://www.geocities.com/clasqm This message was posted from a Microsoft-free PC Hi, is that the U S Patent Office? I'd like to patent the FOR-NEXT loop, please ...
Re: [newbie] curious ....
It was Sat, 30 Jun 2001 09:46:21 -0700 (PDT) when Rita F. Koenigs wrote: I mispoke ... I was in BarnesNoble, and it was in some book I was skimming that it mentioned OS X as a unix-based OS (but I'm a little confused on the details, because I wrote notes about FreeBSD) so IMAC was just the general term I used for an Apple machine, since I have no knowledge of the various levels of Apple machines I've just stayed away from them, because it's out of my price range. It is true. OS X is based on the FreeBSD kernel. Paul -- I prefer rogues to imbeciles, because they sometimes take a rest. -Alexandre Dumas (fils) http://nlpagan.net - Registered Linux User 174403 Linux Mandrake 8.0 - Sylpheed 0.4.99 ** http://www.care2.com - when you care **
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
http://www.linuxbase.org/ enjoy -- +-- + Jeff Reed + Linux System Administrator + Metro West Boston Linux User Group + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + (508) 792-6070 +-- Check out Linux! It's good for you. http://www.linuxbusca.com http://www.linuxdoc.org http://www.linuxnewbie.org
Fwd: Re: [newbie] curious ....
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 21:54:34 +0200 To: PENA FAMILY [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Olaf Marzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious At 21.58 29/06/01, you wrote: I agree comletely, Linux is still very young and developing. My twist on the car analogy is like this Windows is the average car which the vast majority drives and get from point A to point B. There are lemons depending on everything from quality and price but they get the larger slice of the consumer pie. Macintosh is the BMW and Mercedes...etc. You pay for the high quality and since everything is included your less likely to have problems again barring any X factors like quality control and bad management. Ok. Linux and other althernative OS, whichever term you want to use, is the kit car. The old Chevy or Ford you want to tweak to run and look like you want it to. You can remove the air conditioner to boost engine performance. Get rid of manufacturer settings again to get that boost you want. Doing whatever you want to make it run, look, and feel just the way you want and to reflect your individual personality. The only problem this is a small market there are problems with making those tweaks. You can problems but the point is to make the changes you want. Ok Macintosh and Windows don't and may never do that, personally they won't since their user base is so much different than Linux. NO! Mac OS X, for example, is Unix-based. You won't ever have the source code, but you will always be able to customize it much more than any Win. And about win... they will change something after the process. I do a lot of home video editing. Windows sucks for this even with Windows2000. Apple is excellent for this but has a history and the experience that has given it this result, but the price is ridiculous and just out of my means. Personally, most of the Apple designed machines I find ugly especially the Flower Power iMac which I would find humilating to be seen using.lol A Mac ocsts INITIALLY more, but a normal user will save much money with the assistance: 90% of the world have to pay for repairing problems. Mac is, in this case, the cheapest platform. Linux has stability and is pretty much a clean slate for developing. In fact, Monday I will install MDK 8 in my PC!. I do not hold any OS as my religion. I just can't see it as such but I like the open source and I like Linux. Heck, I crash Linux 3 times more than I do with Windows since I am constantly looking through and fiddling with. I don't trust Linux, Windows, or Mac but I do have hope for Linux compared to the other two. I wonder do those who prefer command line will ever move to a GUI or do they just stay in a command line enviroment within a UNIX platform since thats all they want? I don't know. Olaf
Re: Fwd: Re: [newbie] curious ....
Olaf Marzocchi wrote: Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 21:54:34 +0200 To: PENA FAMILY [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Olaf Marzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious At 21.58 29/06/01, you wrote: I agree comletely, Linux is still very young and developing. My twist on the car analogy is like this Windows is the average car which the vast majority drives and get from point A to point B. There are lemons depending on everything from quality and price but they get the larger slice of the consumer pie. Macintosh is the BMW and Mercedes...etc. You pay for the high quality and since everything is included your less likely to have problems again barring any X factors like quality control and bad management. Ok. Linux and other althernative OS, whichever term you want to use, is the kit car. The old Chevy or Ford you want to tweak to run and look like you want it to. You can remove the air conditioner to boost engine performance. Get rid of manufacturer settings again to get that boost you want. Doing whatever you want to make it run, look, and feel just the way you want and to reflect your individual personality. The only problem this is a small market there are problems with making those tweaks. You can problems but the point is to make the changes you want. Ok Macintosh and Windows don't and may never do that, personally they won't since their user base is so much different than Linux. NO! Mac OS X, for example, is Unix-based. You won't ever have the source code, but you will always be able to customize it much more than any Win. And about win... they will change something after the process. I do a lot of home video editing. Windows sucks for this even with Windows2000. Apple is excellent for this but has a history and the experience that has given it this result, but the price is ridiculous and just out of my means. Personally, most of the Apple designed machines I find ugly especially the Flower Power iMac which I would find humilating to be seen using.lol A Mac ocsts INITIALLY more, but a normal user will save much money with the assistance: 90% of the world have to pay for repairing problems. Mac is, in this case, the cheapest platform. Linux has stability and is pretty much a clean slate for developing. In fact, Monday I will install MDK 8 in my PC!. I do not hold any OS as my religion. I just can't see it as such but I like the open source and I like Linux. Heck, I crash Linux 3 times more than I do with Windows since I am constantly looking through and fiddling with. I don't trust Linux, Windows, or Mac but I do have hope for Linux compared to the other two. I wonder do those who prefer command line will ever move to a GUI or do they just stay in a command line enviroment within a UNIX platform since thats all they want? I don't know. Olaf Command lines will get you out of a lot of trouble when the GUI stops working. Roman Registered Linux User #179293 Email Powered By Tux Email Utility
Re: [newbie] curious .... My last comment on the subject.. Great suggestion for Mandrake.
remove all servers and the multiple apps of the same apps, settle on one for
each,, one word processor, one spreadsheet, one text editor,, one of
everthing...
I kind of like that idea. Peanut linux or other small distributions probably
already do something along that line -- if they can shoehorn linux+kde and
whatever else in 85 megs, that is. Everyone can tell there is just a lot of
duplication in any decent-sized distribution -- you've got kapps that
duplicate much of the xapps functionality -- just look at all the different
clock applets, editors, etc. It's easy to counter a question like How do
I edit a file in Linux with a dozen or more conflicting responses, all
custom-tailored to one of the different editors that is included.
no choice of console or X at boot, make it always boot to GUI...
Well, that in itself doesn't take up much extra disk space, but Mandrake
already boots to GUI. That's all right but to take it to another extreme
(login wizards that distort the idea of passwords and so forth, for instance)
is unwise. You can eliminate the extra window managers (or at least not
install them).
then once they have the hang of it,, introduce them to the pleasures of a
full distro...
Or just point out they can get their favorite extra stuff by installing
from the CD or what have you. I think you can do this without necessarily
going to a different distro -- just tailor the individual installation
functions to include one that basically says install basic working system;
however, that install must provide enough stuff as to make the system usable
without having to add a bunch of extra packages. For instance, Mandrake now
has workstation and development and some other install profiles (such as
server) but if one does a basic install of workstation he still needs to
bring in development stuff if he wants to (say) recompile a kernel -- but
it's possible to have the 'basic install' install components like the C
compiler development stuff, but not install other components like python,
perl, tcl, etc.
I had the idea to do that about 2 years ago... I wanted to make a linux
intall based on redhat and make it as close in spec and appearance to
You almost could have done that with fvwm95 :).
worse, it asks you if you want to install a package by name, and that name
is nothing a newbie would know or recognice or know.
I think you've made a very good point. Windows at least calls its notepad
'notepad.exe' so someone new can come to the system and say - aha - notepad
- that's what I want. emacs What does that do? In fact, Laura Conrad and I
were just diecussing this point recently. To the uninitiated, many of the
Linux names for programs are just something that somebody made up[1], sounds
cute (maybe in a language other than English) :) or what have you. Partly,
of course, this is because there are so many choices available. If you have
twelve editors, you can't just call one of them EDITOR and be done with
it :). I'm not suggesting renaming the linux utilities, of course, as that
would just be confusing as well. But a distribution aimed at novices could
just opt to install one of a set of editors and tell the user 'to edit files,
type edit' and edit could be a symlink to {vi,emacs,pico,...} if need be.
1. A current 2.4 kernel...
2. a poll to ask everyones opinion on what is the easiest most useful of
each app type that should be included in this distro.
3. One of each app type only... use the above poll to determine what app
should be chosen for each app type.
So far so good...some servers should be included, postfix / apache
probably for starters. No need for innd,postgresd, etc. Again, the
current installation profiles need to be tweaked - one shouldn't have
to go for a server install to get a few necessary (plus some that
aren't - depending on what you want to do) plus 'workstation' plus
'development' to get a basic workstation with some development and
server capability -- which I think is what many want.
5. market it as linux for windoze users... the power of linux with the ease
of windows. (that may not appeal to us, ,but it will appeal to windoze
users..)
As others have mentioned, that might not fly, but it certainly could be
marketed as an easier, gentler Linux while still maintaining the power
that's under the hood. It would still be Mandrake, or whatever distribution
one decides to use as a base. It just wouldn't present the new user with a
cornucopia of differing and (sometimes) conflicting packages.
6. possibly even a file manager that calls / (c drive) /home (my docs) and
/usr (prog files) and /proc (linux) and /mnt/floppy (a drive) /mnt/cdrom (d
I'd be against that because it unnecessary clouds that it's Unix under
the hood. If you want, you can already do that with symlinks, and MS likely
got the idea of my documents from /home anyway, since previous MS products
lacked completely the concept of a separate storage area for data.
[1] Disallowing
Re: [newbie] curious ....
I mispoke ... I was in BarnesNoble, and it was in some book I was skimming that it mentioned OS X as a unix-based OS (but I'm a little confused on the details, because I wrote notes about FreeBSD) so IMAC was just the general term I used for an Apple machine, since I have no knowledge of the various levels of Apple machines I've just stayed away from them, because it's out of my price range. You speak without knowledge of the real world (without offense): EVERY person I saw with an iMac was a newbie, power users buy a PowerMac or a TiBook. In addition, the Mac OS is far simpler than Windblows and now with OS X is almost as powerful as Linux (that I am going to install next week). Olaf __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Well, I meant that my bug with my keyboard was litterally a bug, as in a spider crawled out from between the keys and nearly freaked me out. I did't relay that apparently since I was typing about 3:00am and half asleep. Just ot elaborate.
Re: [newbie] curious ....
As far as market share goes, I think you'd have to take FreeBSD out of that list. FreeBSD is the ISP UNIX. It's a downsized UNIX, but still a step above Linux. I don't know of anybody personally that's using FreeBSD as a desktop/workstation (Meanwhile I do have a FreeBSD server at home.) and I've heard of only a few that really do. I've never seen a boxed set of FreeBSD in any store, and I don't spend much time at the webpage to see if they even sell the CDs for the OS. But as a server it's amazing. Daily security reports, I love it's use of the /usr/ports making new software installs very nice and very simple. As it's starting to look more and more, Macs are for the fanatical. For those that have always been HUGE Mac fans. I don't see people who are about to purchase their first machine looking at Macs. It's the people who have always had them, and insist on them. Even with the introduction of the pretty iMac, I still didn't know of people that were saying, I'll switch to a Mac, or I don't have a computer so I'll buy a Mac. But there are those hordes of Mac uses out there that give Apple a chunk of the market share. There's BeOS, but it gets no publicity, it's pretty, but most people argue over it's functionality and/or where to get software for it. I don't know of any games that can be installed on it, but the same thing was true before I dove into Linux. They may have something like our www.freshmeat.com/ or they may not. I've really only seen it installed once, and that was 2 years ago. Currently Linux appears to be the only other fighter in the OS battle. And even more so as of late since Micro$HAFT has been giving it all this free publicity for Linux with it's press conferences about Linux and OpenSource. But people don't know enough about Linux so they are then curious and check it out. Thus far I've known/heard of 3 people who through all the bad media attention M$ is giving Linux, have switched over to Linux. Two of which have already gotten rid of Windows all together, the 3rd still has a dual boot machine. But I honestly think Microsoft will still be split up, or some drastic things will be done to it once the next trial come to pass. tdh -- T. Holmes - UNIXTECHS.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Real Men Us Vi! Uptime: 8:06AM up 8 days, 21:59, 11 users, load averages: 0.03, 0.02, 0.00 | There seems to be a lot of talk about Windows (even before the | Appeals Court decision) being a competitor of / annoyance to | the Linux OS | | I'm wondering about FreeBSD or MAC OS X any | potential competition there? ... any way to combat the OS | monopolistic intent of M$? | | | __ | Do You Yahoo!? | Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail | http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ | --
Re: [newbie] curious ....
At this time I see no objective reason for splitting up Microsoft ... what purpose will it serve? And why is Bill Gates so dead-set against it? What's the threat? Is it just a comfort-level thing? A nuisance change that he's concerned about? Or is it a huge threat to their monopoly? In fact, the remedy is seen as tepid by some people who are not M$ fans. Perhaps the latest suit is not a strong one are there ones that are? But litigation is such a slow and contentious process, I just think M$ is able to play that game better than anyone else (sounds painfully familiar). Has anyone really figured out a market that hasn't been tapped yet, within the industry, that Microsoft hasn't and will not be able to steal? Maybe better innovation is the answer, not litigation. Just wondering. The only real desktop option out there is the Mac thinking of kids, adults, etc and it seems that there needs to be more of an effort by others to become more user-friendly. There just doesn't seem to be a huge market out there for power users or even curious users who are willing to struggle through what seems like techie, hard-to-understand-on-a-higher-level-than it says so in the manual attempts to solve *many wierd techie problems. It's a shame about the IMAC not cutting it for people beyond the fanatical ... what are you basing that opinion on, besides what you see personally? I would *love to see a product that will give a lot of people a highly usable alternative to M$, because I dislike their tactics. __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [newbie] curious ....
I found your post very interesting. Here is my 2 cents if you don't mind an outside opinion. First, I never gave a second look at a Mac. First off at that time APPLE was on the bottom and looking like it wanted a bullet to put it out of its misery. My first PC was a HP7170 Pavilion. I was amazed on its features, of course it had only a 133Mhz Intel, 2GB harddrive but for a first timer I was impressed. It had Windows95 which I had heard about but never really gave a look since at that time the PCs were still too expensive. That Pavilion also ran HP's own interface or Operating System. Needless, to say it was a joke and I uninstalled it since I didn't see any point in keeping something I didn't want. Then came Windows98, 98SE, and currently Millenium Edition. I am not imressed but I hae enjoyed software so much that I could care less of the comments MS haters have to say about Windows, and every variation of the name. Two years ago I heard about Linux for a consumer easy to use version. I went and bought the Corel Linux as at that time I heard it was the easiest to use. I have since then learn that every loyalist of a Linux flavor believes their favorite is the easiest and best. Needless to say it wasn't easy and I never could get past the splash window. Then came Linux Mandrake's Linux for Windows. I have heard the remarks from many of you about how inferior or a bad choice. Frankly, it is not and gives a raw newbie and idea of what Linux Mandrake can offer and is all about. I agree it is not for replacing or migrating away from Windows but it is an easy taste by comparison of all Linux distros. I went the way of Linux 7.2 full distribution and partition my drive to house both Millenium Edition and Mandrake. I am happy with both and really wish there was a way to have all three OS on one machine(Windows, Linux, Macintosh) and switch through with ease. There are software but far too much complication at this time. I enjoy Linux and I have spent hours learning and playing with it, but frankly and with all due respect to others in this forum and lovers of Linux, you just can't really get any work done with it. I am either having to install patches or make adjustments every time I need to do something or want to do something. Thats the real flaw with Linux not support or application choice but you just don't boot up click click and get something to work tha easily and quickly. Many of you have provided so much help to us newbies but your past experience and with some of you with a formal UNIX education go through command lines as if they were just plain englsih(or perspective native language). Personally, I don't get excited and find command lines boring and unnecessary. With a GUI it is point and click and so on. It is not lazy or an aide to the stupid. Frankly, not everyone who has a car wants a manual transmission or work on it to make the adjustment so that car runs the way the owner wants it to. The future for Linux is in Limbo, personal opinion, and it has nothing to do with Microsoft or the ignorant comments on Linux and the Open Source. There is no standard and most hardcore users like that but there is such chaos over such a system. Sometimes hearing hardcore Linux users is like listening to the hippies of the Hasbury, if I spelled that correctly, days talk about the movement of love and peace and taking down the system and powers that be. Most are probably drivng BMW's and hold stock options with a large corporation about now. I know for the most part Linux for the the average consumer is still so so very young. The Open Source community has done wonders and have worked to bring Linux to the common user who is not interested in getting under the hood of their OS. I guess that is the point. Why does Microsoft have the largest share of the market, aside from the monopoly? The vast majority don't care. They just want point, click and go. I have read Linux newbies who have given Linux Mandrake a shot and have decided to go back to Windows and maybe Mac if I recall correctly. The first comment I hear is let the Windoze baby go back to their mindless. Its a choice and at least there is a choice now. I love Linux but I can honestly say as unbias observer Linux is not for the common person. So far all the usrs I have encountered are techies, wanna be techies, hackers(as in enjoyers of software and not a cracker) and those with a formal UNIX education. As Linux moves to become easier I think it is losing that thing that has given the rise and recognition. Still though evolution has a funny way of throwing a monkey wrench into the mix now and then. I am curious to see what the future holds for all OS. Again just my two cents I invite others opinion but not insults. Thank you
RE: [newbie] curious ....
In short, I agreee. -Original Message- From: PENA FAMILY [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 1:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] curious I enjoy Linux and I have spent hours learning and playing with it, but frankly and with all due respect to others in this forum and lovers of Linux, you just can't really get any work done with it. I am either having to install patches or make adjustments every time I need to do something or want to do something. Thats the real flaw with Linux not support or application choice but you just don't boot up click click and get something to work tha easily and quickly. Many of you have provided so much help to us newbies but your past experience and with some of you with a formal UNIX education go through command lines as if they were just plain englsih(or perspective native language). Personally, I don't get excited and find command lines boring and unnecessary. With a GUI it is point and click and so on. It is not lazy or an aide to the stupid. Frankly, not everyone who has a car wants a manual transmission or work on it to make the adjustment so that car runs the way the owner wants it to. Yup, this same car argument has been made again and again, and I agree with you. As a developer that writes both unix backend systems and window front-ends, it's far easier to build the command line tool than the GUI. I do not believe GUIs are for the lazy or the idiot user. There is a certain art in designing a usable GUI and it's quite a challenge. A bad GUI can make the command line tool a godsend but that is a problem with the specifc GUI not GUIs in general. I will always prefer using a good GUI to a command tool if it's available. Linux has quite a share of bad GUIs (pet peeve, pop up windows that place themselves arbitrary around your desktop instead of being front and center). But it takes a lot of effort to front end an application. Most developers are more interested in writing code than writing human-computer interfaces. I love Linux but I can honestly say as unbias observer Linux is not for the common person. So far all the usrs I have encountered are techies, wanna be techies, hackers(as in enjoyers of software and not a cracker) and those with a formal UNIX education. As Linux moves to become easier I think it is losing that thing that has given the rise and recognition. Still though evolution has a funny way of throwing a monkey wrench into the mix now and then. I am curious to see what the future holds for all OS. Again just my two cents I invite others opinion but not insults. The hard part about critizing linux and linux software is that it's all done by volunteers. So how do you critize something that no one is forcing you to use or pay for to use. It's a place to be in. There is a delicate line that one must tread so that an issue doesn't sound like a complaint but instead a suggestion. There are lot's of people working really really hard to make the linux experience a nice one. And there a lot's of other people who don't really care about this aspect of the linux culture. Try not to get caught up in those arguments. cheers!
Re: [newbie] curious ....
I agree comletely, Linux is still very young and developing. My twist on the car analogy is like this Windows is the average car which the vast majority drives and get from point A to point B. There are lemons depending on everything from quality and price but they get the larger slice of the consumer pie. Macintosh is the BMW and Mercedes...etc. You pay for the high quality and since everything is included your less likely to have problems again barring any X factors like quality control and bad management. Linux and other althernative OS, whichever term you want to use, is the kit car. The old Chevy or Ford you want to tweak to run and look like you want it to. You can remove the air conditioner to boost engine performance. Get rid of manufacturer settings again to get that boost you want. Doing whatever you want to make it run, look, and feel just the way you want and to reflect your individual personality. The only problem this is a small market there are problems with making those tweaks. You can problems but the point is to make the changes you want. Macintosh and Windows don't and may never do that, personally they won't since their user base is so much different than Linux. I do a lot of home video editing. Windows sucks for this even with Windows2000. Apple is excellent for this but has a history and the experience that has given it this result, but the price is ridiculous and just out of my means. Personally, most of the Apple designed machines I find ugly especially the Flower Power iMac which I would find humilating to be seen using.lol Linux has stability and is pretty much a clean slate for developing. I do not hold any OS as my religion. I just can't see it as such but I like the open source and I like Linux. Heck, I crash Linux 3 times more than I do with Windows since I am constantly looking through and fiddling with. I don't trust Linux, Windows, or Mac but I do have hope for Linux compared to the other two. I wonder do those who prefer command line will ever move to a GUI or do they just stay in a command line enviroment within a UNIX platform since thats all they want?
Re: [newbie] curious ....
It was Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:58:00 -0700 when PENA FAMILY wrote: I wonder do those who prefer command line will ever move to a GUI or do they just stay in a command line enviroment within a UNIX platform since thats all they want? Oh, I run a GUI. It's called XFCE. But when you're used to, for example, moving files around from a prompt (mv -f a b) then it is usually much faster than going through the motions with a mouse, dragging, dropping, confirming that you want this'n'that indeed to happen etc. Or in editting a file, having to rely on mouse movements each time you want something done, instead of the fast things you can do in vi. I often operate unix machines in a production environment. And for me, the prompt is the fastest tool. Why? Because I learnt to use computers when they were still dinosaurs, with punched tape, 11 pinfeed paper and keyboards, without display screens. Before the existance of IBM compatible PC's. Once I helped someone get his winders up again, and I had to edit an INI file (yes, Winders 3.11). So I opened a command.com. This guy got a shock: WHAT'S THAT??? The command line got me out of trouble just as often as the GUI got me into them. That's why the command line is important to me. Paul -- It's in process: So wrapped up in red tape that the situation is almost hopeless. http://nlpagan.net - Registered Linux User 174403 Linux Mandrake 8.0 - Sylpheed 0.4.99 ** http://www.care2.com - when you care **
Re: [newbie] curious ....
X-RebelTech Is Here: www.rebeltech.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit i _am_ jealous of your new machine 1.4gig. i can hear more than one Tim Taylor grunt right now! sounds sweet! moose. On Saturday 30 June 2001 03:48, you wrote: Rita: I would *love to see a product that will give a lot of people a highly usable alternative to M$, because I dislike their tactics. I rebuilt my system this morning. It was a Pentium III-450 oc'd to 600. Now with a different motherboard, cpu and sound chip, it's an AMD Athlon 1.4gig. I booted it for the first time into Mandrake 8.0 (+cooker), overclocked to 1470, on the drive that was runnin Mandrake in the old system. Not even a burp. Only thing I had to do was run harddrake to config the new integrated sound chip. Found that I could reliably run 'mprime's torture test at 1.55 gig without raisin the default voltages and stay below 50C under heavy load with the cpu. WinSUX, OTOH, wouldn't boot into anything but failsafe (even at the default 1.4g). It kept search'n for new hardware, install it, ask to be rebooted, over an over well this went on for more than a dozen times till it finally got it halfway right enough to boot to a normal desktop. I was on the fence of even putting winBLOWS on this new system, now I'm sorry I did. I'm gonna miss Flight Sim 2000, but I'm fixin to just delete Windoze off that drive altogether and make some more room for the Penguin. BTW, still no sound in WinSUX, and there's still much to reconfigure If I bother. Who cares if Billy gets split? People who're savvy enough to realize Windoze SUX? or the vast masses that'll support Winblows jus 'cause they don't know any thing better? Whether Billy had won or lost yesterday wouldn'a made any diference with his flock. I believe they get what they deserve. Everyday, many people get the kind'a winblows experience I gave above. Most don't know or care that Winblows is the culprit, they'll use it anyhow.
Re: [newbie] curious
On Friday 29 June 2001 17:32, Mandrake wrote: But winblows crashes And don't forget this ridiculous plan they have for Windows XP to lock it to one particular computer. This one should have people switching to Linux in droves. *** Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 Bryan S. Tyson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [newbie] curious ....
First, I never gave a second look at a Mac. First off at that time APPLE was Neither did I. My sum total experience using Macs is about 2 hours, back in the 1980's on a microscopic Mac with a black white screen the size of a postcard. That was enough for me. Plus the proprietary, overpriced hardware and single-button mouse, and lack of decent CAD software, and the general dumbing-down effect of the whole Mac experience. Many of you have provided so much help to us newbies but your past experience and with some of you with a formal UNIX education go through command lines as if they were just plain englsih(or perspective native language). Personally, I don't get excited and find command lines boring and unnecessary. With a GUI it is point and click and so on. It is not lazy or an aide to the stupid. Frankly, not everyone who has a car wants a manual transmission or work on it to make the adjustment so that car runs the way the owner wants it to. My formal computer training consists of one semester of punch-card computer math back in the 1970's. I didn't use a computer again, except for data entry, until 1989, when I started using DOS (command line) and a little bit of Windows 2.0 (utterly useless). From that point I used every version of DOS and Windows up to 98SE. I had never used Unix until about a year ago, but I started programming in every computer language I was able to find time to teach myself starting in 1990. I love the command line, but I also love the windowing environment. That is one problem I have with Windows - sure, you can open a DOS window, but it's clunky. In Linux the terminal windows feel more integrated; I always have at least one open. Often it is just more efficient to work from the command line than to mouse all over the place - click, hold, drag, drop, oops, dropped it in the wrong place, undo, try again ... damn, it copied instead of moving (or vice versa) ... but the windowing environment does have great advantages as well. It's a matter of finding a balance that works for you., and Linux gives me that freedom. I still use Windows, just not very often. I love Linux but I can honestly say as unbias observer Linux is not for the common person. So far all the usrs I have encountered are techies, wanna be techies, hackers(as in enjoyers of software and not a cracker) and those with a formal UNIX education. As Linux moves to become easier I think it is losing that thing that has given the rise and recognition. Still though evolution has a funny way of throwing a monkey wrench into the mix now and then. I am curious to see what the future holds for all OS. I have to agree there, as a self-described techie and geek. For many years I tried to hide my geekiness; grew my hair, was a stoner, and did the blue-collar thing, but I couldn't hide forever. I cut my hair, sobered up, and went techie (not in that order) and am now a happy geeky tech-dude. I even own golf shirts and khakis now, though a lot of the golf shirts have penguins on them rather than alligators ;) Oh, by the way, I prefer manual shift cars ... but I haven't driven in years. I ride a bicycle. It adds to the eccentric aura I like to project. And it's more respectable than the bloodshot eyes and ponytail down to my a** that I used to wear. Jay aka The Insane Multitasker
Re: [newbie] curious ....
On Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:48, Tom Brinkman wrote: Rita: I would *love to see a product that will give a lot of people a highly usable alternative to M$, because I dislike their tactics. I rebuilt my system this morning. It was a Pentium III-450 oc'd to 600. Now with a different motherboard, cpu and sound chip, it's an AMD Athlon 1.4gig. I booted it for the first time into Mandrake 8.0 (+cooker), overclocked to 1470, on the drive that was runnin Mandrake in the old system. Not even a burp. Only thing I had to do was run harddrake to config the new integrated sound chip. Found that I could reliably run 'mprime's torture test at 1.55 gig without raisin the default voltages and stay below 50C under heavy load with the cpu. WinSUX, OTOH, wouldn't boot into anything but failsafe (even at the default 1.4g). It kept search'n for new hardware, install it, ask to be rebooted, over an over well this went on for more than a dozen times till it finally got it halfway right enough to boot to a normal desktop. I was on the fence of even putting winBLOWS on this new system, now I'm sorry I did. I'm gonna miss Flight Sim 2000, but I'm fixin to just delete Windoze off that drive altogether and make some more room for the Penguin. BTW, still no sound in WinSUX, and there's still much to reconfigure If I bother. Who cares if Billy gets split? People who're savvy enough to realize Windoze SUX? or the vast masses that'll support Winblows jus 'cause they don't know any thing better? Whether Billy had won or lost yesterday wouldn'a made any diference with his flock. I believe they get what they deserve. Everyday, many people get the kind'a winblows experience I gave above. Most don't know or care that Winblows is the culprit, they'll use it anyhow. Unlike other WinDOS competitors, GNU/Linux will never die. This is thanks to its GPL underpinnings. M$ can't use its code (legally), and they sure as hell can't buy it out. -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. I didn't get rich by writing lots of cheques. -- Bill Gates, in 'The Simpsons'
Re: [newbie] curious ....
Unlike other WinDOS competitors, GNU/Linux will never die... M$ can't use its code (legally), and they sure as hell can't buy it out. The richest man in the world, representing the most powerful software force in the history of the planet can't touch Linux. sigh Brings a tear of joy to these ol' eyes :-) -- Sridhar Dhanapalan. I didn't get rich by writing lots of cheques. -- Bill Gates, in 'The Simpsons' Of course, the real Billy Gates would spell it, checks. Miark
Re: [newbie] curious ....
It was Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:25:59 -0700 (PDT) when Rita F. Koenigs wrote: There seems to be a lot of talk about Windows (even before the Appeals Court decision) being a competitor of / annoyance to the Linux OS I'm wondering about FreeBSD or MAC OS X any potential competition there? ... any way to combat the OS monopolistic intent of M$? FreeBSD is also a Unix clone, so to speak. Mac runs on completely different hardware, that is a choice someone makes. Make that choice and you have no dealings with Windoze. Paul -- It's in process: So wrapped up in red tape that the situation is almost hopeless. http://nlpagan.net - Registered Linux User 174403 Linux Mandrake 8.0 - Sylpheed 0.4.99 ** http://www.care2.com - when you care **
Re: [newbie] curious .... ADD 'WHAT I LEARNED AT USENIX!'
On Thursday 28 June 2001 23:25, Rita F. Koenigs wrote: There seems to be a lot of talk about Windows (even before the Appeals Court decision) being a competitor of / annoyance to the Linux OS I'm wondering about FreeBSD or MAC OS X any potential competition there? ... any way to combat the OS monopolistic intent of M$? __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ there is no threat. really. i can say that with all honesty. i've just been to the USENIX conference in Boston MA and let me tell you firsthand that there IS NO PLACE for Windows or ANY OTHER PROPRIETARY OS at these shows!, in your workplace, even in your home! WINDOWS IS OLD NEWS! OK? what i saw today was indeed LIVING PROOF that the Linux community at large is very much alive and kicking! there is no competitionthere is harmony...between thousands of programmers and their kindred...even good old end users. no one is left out...everyone who was there today. programmer or not - no one seemed to care about the court decision and no one cares what kind of move M$ makes next! it won't matter. there will still be GNU/Linux being installed on EVERYTHING as i saw today! one of the COOLEST things being a COMPAQ handheld PC with a full blown version of GNU/Linux running on it quite nicely! that's a handheld PCNOT a PDA!!! it had a fully working camera mounted, 64 MB of RAM, and it was THE COOLEST THING!!! gee, funny, i only saw one M$ vendor there. everyone was poking fun at the poor guy because the RAT BASTARD had a STUPID and USELESS shell interface that let's you command a Linux/UNIX box from a Windows GUI. AND, to add to it's uselessness, it only runs for 120 days before you have to purchase it! WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT? there's a free shell program called ttssh for windows and it's FREE and it DOES THE SAME GODAMNED THING! http://www.tucows.com and search for TTSSH! anyway, back to the point. there IS NO THREAT. the beauty of this OS is that it gives you a CHOICE. isn't that nice? do you think the internet runs 100% on M$? BULL. what i saw today has CHANGED MY MIND FOREVER. PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE AND COMPUTER SYSTEMS ARE FOR PEOPLE WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT MONEY!!! everyone understand that? and i'm not saying that there's anything wrong with making money. but THESE GUYS AREN''T JUST MAKING MONEY, they're taking the general population and making us (for those of you who care) STUPID. does it work? yes. is it affordable? sure. but there's MUCH MORE than meets the eye. and, if you like computers even just a LITTLE BIT, you will take heed to what i've said here and REALLY take a good long look at how M$ is MONOPOLIZING THE WAY YOU COMMUNICATE ONLINE. YES, IT IS TRUE. start taking a good long look at how things are...if you don't care? that's fine. but, once in a while i actually enjoy excersising my constitutional rights...i don't need to buy ANYTHING from ANYONE if i don't want to! it's the LAW. and that's all i'm going to say. p.s. USENIX! Boston MA! very very very cool! p.p.s. it was nice to rub elbows with REAL people in a REAL evironment where we didn't have to sit and talk MARKETING BULLSHIT ALL DAY. these were guys who want to discover SOLUTIONS and come up with new and unique ideas in COMPUTING. then, they get paid when the job is done. wow...honest people. scary. -- +-- + Jeff Reed + Linux System Administrator + Metro West Boston Linux User Group + [EMAIL PROTECTED] + (508) 792-6070 +-- Check out Linux! It's good for you. http://www.linuxbusca.com http://www.linuxdoc.org http://www.linuxnewbie.org
Re: [newbie] curious
iIf you check out the webmin, there's something in there for MajorDomo. So yes, you will be able to manage and config THE MAJOR from webmin. You just have to install it first. The RPM may be on the downloaded disks. Just make sure you have all the requirements when installing to avoid errors. tdh T. Holmes Unixtechs.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Real Men use Vi. * Kit [EMAIL PROTECTED] [010512 17:44]: | Can I install this...on LM-8.0 ? | and have webmin 0.84 configure it.. | | |http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/openlinux/edesktop/col/install/RPMS/majordomo-1.94.5-1.i386.html | -- | Registered Linux User: 167369 | = http://www.kompukit.com = | [EMAIL PROTECTED]ICQ# 7110071 | Personal WebServer: http://kompukit.dyndns.org | WebDesigner: http://www.kompukit.com/kitdesigns | (Personal Server runs: M-F= 7pm-12am S+S=12pm-12am) | (US EST)
Re: [[newbie] curious]
Integrated chipsets (sound/vid/LAN/etc...) are not worth the hassle trying to configure in Linux HTH Jaguar KompuKit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering...if this motherboard...and its features/hardware will work under linux...anyone know for sure...let me know? just click oh the link to see it...on ebay Original Message Subject: eBay Daily Status as of Apr-11-00 07:39:11 PDT Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:25:20 PDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear kitdesigns All information is current as of Apr-11-00 07:39:11 PDT Please visit eBay for the latest information. You are a high bidder on the following auctions: 301325676: 550Mhz MB w/modem,AGP,3D sound,100Net+ 1 year Current bid: $77.25 Auction ends on:Apr-12-00 01:41:15 PDT http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=301325676 -- End Status -- Thank you for using eBay! If you have not already done so today, it wouldn't hurt to mention eBay to a few of your friends! Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.
Re: [newbie]Curious
can anyone tell me how many bit operating system is the mandrake? 64? or 32. thanks
Re: [newbie] curious...
Kit, try /usr/sbin/apachectl This will show you the available options. Bryan KompuKit [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 03/16/2000 09:03:46 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mandrake Linux [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:(bcc: Bryan Moorehead/Link/Allied Holdings) Subject: [newbie] curious... Hey, what is the apache execution file...name, and where is it located. anyone know...? I thought it was etc/sbin/httpd -- KompuKit= [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ# 7110071 HomePage: http://kwg.virtualave.net/kwg Personal WebServer: http://kompukit.penguinpowered.com (Server Runs between 6pm-12am EST) KompuKit=
RE: [newbie] curious...
just "httpd" if you are root -Original Message- From: KompuKit [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 10:34 PM To: Mandrake Linux Subject: [newbie] curious... Hey, what is the apache execution file...name, and where is it located. anyone know...? I thought it was etc/sbin/httpd -- KompuKit= [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ# 7110071 HomePage: http://kwg.virtualave.net/kwg Personal WebServer: http://kompukit.penguinpowered.com (Server Runs between 6pm-12am EST) KompuKit=
Re: [newbie] Curious fsck and changing login screens
- Original Message - From: Aaron deRozario [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 11:59 PM Subject: [newbie] Curious fsck and changing login screens I have used Linux for about 8 months (RedHat 5.2) and have recently started using Mandrake 6.0. I have been generally extremely impressed with Mandrake, however I have noticed a few strange occurences. 1) I have always operated in runlevel 5 and used the Mandrake logon screen to shutdown or reboot my machine. Now I have rarely rebooted, however on the two occasions I have used the Mandrake Shutdown button to reboot, the startup process informs me that hda1(hda6) was not cleanly unmounted and proceeds to run fsck. Not a problem in itself, but I hate it when something doesn't work as it is supposed to and I don't know why. This same problem also occurred the single time I tries shutdown -r now. 2) On some occassions this same problem has occurred when merely booting up the machine. I know fsck is supposed to run after a certain number of mounts, however this problem has been occurring at irregular intervals sometimes as close as three boots apart. I stress that I always shut down properly, using either the Mandrake Shutdown button, or occasionally shutdown -h now. 3) This fsck has never caused me much trouble until last night when the fsck indicated a large number of errors including a reference to /usr/share/config/kdmrc (I may have this path and file name slightly incorrect. I apologise I am writing from work 12 hours later). It also made reference to a saved Civilisation - Call to Power game. When the fsck was complete the boot up process, which always indicates everything OK, came up with a FAILED message. I believe it said (again it was a while ago) that it was unable to read /usr/share/config/kdmrc. The next indication of something amiss was when X flashed up with the standard KDE login screen instead of the Mandrake screen. Using the Kpackage program I found the package that is responsible for the /usr/share/config/kdmrc file. It came up with a cross instead of a tick. Thinking I was clever I reinstalled the package and rebooted. Alas no change, the boot up process still indicated a failed read of /usr/share/config/kdmrc and I still received the KDE login screen. Further investigation revealed that /usr/../kdmrc was a file of size 0. Also, I think the saved Civ CTP game has disappeared. My question then is - how do I get my beloved Mandrake login screen back? Win9x friends laughed when I had to su root etc to shutdown and now I have got my own back I don't want that Shutdown button disappearing. Also what is causing these random fsck's? I have heard that there are some file system problems with 2.2.9. Is this the cause? Will the Mandrake kernel update solve the problem? The file names I have stated MAY BE INCORRECT. I aplogise for this, however I am hoping that the description of my problem will be enough to give you an idea of its likely cause. Thankyou PS As a quick query - why, whenever I add any new users to my system does KDE give me double icons for everything, one in upper case, one in lower (CDROM cdrom, PRINTER printer) ? It never happened for root, nor the non-privilleged user created during install. The problem is in the 2.2.9-19 kernel. You need to get the kernel and initscripts updates to correct this (I suggest getting all of the other updates as well). As for the dual icons, you must not have formatted your /home partition, which is fine. Just delete one of each of the icons, the other will still work. Manny Styles [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Re: [newbie] Curious fsck and changing login screens
There is a bug that has been found regarding bad unmounting. Go to the Mandrake Updates page and find the update. I believe it was initscripts or something like that. -Original Message- From: Aaron deRozario [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 12:23 AM Subject: [newbie] Curious fsck and changing login screens I have used Linux for about 8 months (RedHat 5.2) and have recently started using Mandrake 6.0. I have been generally extremely impressed with Mandrake, however I have noticed a few strange occurences. 1) I have always operated in runlevel 5 and used the Mandrake logon screen to shutdown or reboot my machine. Now I have rarely rebooted, however on the two occasions I have used the Mandrake Shutdown button to reboot, the startup process informs me that hda1(hda6) was not cleanly unmounted and proceeds to run fsck. Not a problem in itself, but I hate it when something doesn't work as it is supposed to and I don't know why. This same problem also occurred the single time I tries shutdown -r now. 2) On some occassions this same problem has occurred when merely booting up the machine. I know fsck is supposed to run after a certain number of mounts, however this problem has been occurring at irregular intervals sometimes as close as three boots apart. I stress that I always shut down properly, using either the Mandrake Shutdown button, or occasionally shutdown -h now. 3) This fsck has never caused me much trouble until last night when the fsck indicated a large number of errors including a reference to /usr/share/config/kdmrc (I may have this path and file name slightly incorrect. I apologise I am writing from work 12 hours later). It also made reference to a saved Civilisation - Call to Power game. When the fsck was complete the boot up process, which always indicates everything OK, came up with a FAILED message. I believe it said (again it was a while ago) that it was unable to read /usr/share/config/kdmrc. The next indication of something amiss was when X flashed up with the standard KDE login screen instead of the Mandrake screen. Using the Kpackage program I found the package that is responsible for the /usr/share/config/kdmrc file. It came up with a cross instead of a tick. Thinking I was clever I reinstalled the package and rebooted. Alas no change, the boot up process still indicated a failed read of /usr/share/config/kdmrc and I still received the KDE login screen. Further investigation revealed that /usr/../kdmrc was a file of size 0. Also, I think the saved Civ CTP game has disappeared. My question then is - how do I get my beloved Mandrake login screen back? Win9x friends laughed when I had to su root etc to shutdown and now I have got my own back I don't want that Shutdown button disappearing. Also what is causing these random fsck's? I have heard that there are some file system problems with 2.2.9. Is this the cause? Will the Mandrake kernel update solve the problem? The file names I have stated MAY BE INCORRECT. I aplogise for this, however I am hoping that the description of my problem will be enough to give you an idea of its likely cause. Thankyou PS As a quick query - why, whenever I add any new users to my system does KDE give me double icons for everything, one in upper case, one in lower (CDROM cdrom, PRINTER printer) ? It never happened for root, nor the non-privilleged user created during install.
