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Tom I'm at the office right now, without access to the album, but will get back to you. It's mainly English folkies, though, and includes Richard Linda doing the previously unreleased title track (circa "Bright Lights" if memory serves). And, on the subject of Thompson tributes, there's also an album called His Master's Choice, or something like that, by English folksinger Dave Burland. Nice, but unessential, and along the lines of the Richard Dobson Townes tribute, which I much prefer. Richard np - Bunny Wailer - DUBD'SCO Vols 12 -Original Message- From: Tom Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, April 24, 1999 5:31 PM To: passenger side Subject: Re: Updates Richard Haslop wrote: The World Is A Wonderful Place (is that what the English Richard Thompson tribute was called? I haven't heard of this. Who's on it? Tom Smith
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-Original Message- From: Jamie Swedberg [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Damn, you find the Blacks more painful than a faux-gospel group? Those must not be the Blacks I saw twice at SxSW. The ones I saw totally fascinated me--they really knew how to work a crowd, and made quite interesting music that has held up to many listens to their CD. And that Gina is some kinda talent, and I don't just mean at wearing diaphanous shirts. Just my $.02. I'm as baffled by Matt's opinion as he will surely be by mine. [Matt Benz] Meant to say "as painful." No, the faux gospel was worse. They pissed me off, and I couldn't even talk to em, and at least one of the people I kinda respect and like. So they sucked the most in all the worst ways we've discussed on here so much. I was seething while they played, waiting for them to get off the stage so we could play for a wednesday nite crowd in a stinky campus punk bar with backed up toiletserm, wrong rant...man, do I have issues... The Blacks were boring, showed none of the "crowd working" you mention, staring pretty vacant at nothing, or some spot above the crowd,the singer barely bothering to project, earning the name "mushmouth" from me, and the songs just lay there and died. My pal Ed loved em, bought the cd (which I've yet to hear: all this is snotty opinion is based on this show), so I must be missing something. Now, I have work to do...
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Anyways, I'm off to see the local excuse for a Western Swing band, and actually they don't suck too bad at all. See you all later. Tom Ekeberg Oslo, Norway I have to inform you that the "excuse" Tom is talking about is named 5:56 and just recently recorded an album of (non alternative) western swing at Athletic Sound in Halden (my hometown) and are more than capable. Actually they are great! They really CAN play and just last Saturday made a surprise show in my father´s 75th years birthday party, right in his living room. They won over the average 75-80 year old crowd with their obvious musicianship and undisputable charm! One track off their album will be featured on an upcoming collection I am putting together, *Frozen - A Selection of Polarized Country* (24:00/ S2 Records). The doubble disc will feature 26 Scandinavian acts that all have some element of country in their sound, some more, some less. One of the featured bands is Bönkers, who started work on their debutalbum in Athletic yesterday with Bob Egan (Wilco, Freakwater, great solodisc) producing, for release in the autumn on Metropol/ Sony Records. Bob also sat in with Jason The Scorchers on Friday at the Studenthall adding lap steel to a great version of "Truck Driving Man". Tom Skjeklesæther Who went to SXSW and saw both great and not that great music. As usual. And therefor is not worried about the state of alt. country or country country.
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Todd Larson wrote: I'll keep that in mind, Bill, and stick with pizza. Have a great weekend everybody...and Jon, make sure to crack the whip tonight on that slacker Purcell. If you don't keep an eye on him he'll be pulling a Warner Hodges and playing the guitar behind his back or with his teeth... I've already ordered a codpiece for my next Prospect Hill show. I'm going to give new meaning to "G-run." Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Greater Cinti Roots Music Page: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest Central: http://www.twangfest.com
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Dave Purcell wrote: Mark Rubin spit: These "alt-country" showcases were packed with scenesters dressed up like they were going to a Hee-Haw theme party. Women in pig-tails and guys in spray painted straw hats that would surely get their asses kicked in an actual honky-tonk. Funny...I was at a real country bar out in the county on Saturday, and remarked to a bandmate that someone like Moonshine Willy or SCOTS would get their asses stomped if they got on stage. But would Buck Owens and the Hee Haw cast doing their thing have gotten stomped too?
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In a message dated 99-04-23 17:38:03 EDT, bob writes: Ummm, who are these bands that are getting on the radio and turning newbies off of "altcountry"? I could name some pretty rotten Southern Ohio bluegrass bands That doesn't answer the question, which was about alt country... g Actually, I consider bluegrass alt-country. Still haven't found any satifactory definition to alt country (does the world really need one, I guess), Mark Rubin eludes to one by saying that Don Walsner and I think it was Dale Watson AREN'T altcountry, just pure country western, but to me, I'll say again, it's any "country" that's rejected by the Hot New Country stations, where all the big bucks are, that embraces country sounds like fiddles and pedal steel and banjo's and doesn't sound like 80's lite FM rock. Elena
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Which pretty much echoes something that Bill Emerson, banjoist extraordinaire, told Bluegrass Unlimited a few years ago (I'm hunting for that Crowe rant): "The problem with bluegrass is that there's too much unprofessional bluegrass. It's a type of music that anybody can play anywhere. You don't have to have an amplifier or an AC power outletThat's not to say that anyone who's doing it is ready to make records and compete for the jobs at the bluegrass festivals. Anyone with a few thousand dollars can produce a recording and send it to radio stations. Program directors, recording executives and promoters should be careful about who they're putting out there to represent the bluegrass idiom. To help it grow we have to concentrate on the *best* music we have." Yeah, damn shame how advances in recording technology have made it possible for people to make records without the financing -- or blessing -- of some media conglomerate more concerned with cash than quality or a group of gatekeepers who get to decide what's "professional" or not. This quote is so ludicrous it would be laughable, if it weren't for the fact that the opinions expressed are apparently shared by others. I guess I should just delete this crap before I let it get to me...
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Yeah, damn shame how advances in recording technology have made it possible for people to make records without the financing -- or blessing -- of some media conglomerate more concerned with cash than quality or a group of gatekeepers who get to decide what's "professional" or not. This quote is so ludicrous it would be laughable, if it weren't for the fact that the opinions expressed are apparently shared by others. Well, considering that Emerson's talking about bluegrass, I've got to take that "media conglomerate" thing with a grain of salt. There are a lot of gatekeepers in the music bidness, and not all - not even most - of them are Big Bad Guys. Do you know any DJs who air all the cuts on everything they get in the mail? The ones who don't - which is all of them, I do believe - are gatekeepers. Clubs who book everyone who wants to play for as long as they want to? The ones who don't are gatekeepers. Record labels that put out everything sent in to them? The ones who don't are...you guessed it. The list of gatekeepers is a pretty long one, and while some of them do a bad job, and some use what I think are pretty bad criteria, I don't see anything wrong with the idea per se. I've heard enough crappy stuff to last a lifetime already. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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"The problem with bluegrass is that there's too much unprofessional bluegrass. No, no. That would be old-time music. snort Erin
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Richard Haslop wrote: The World Is A Wonderful Place (is that what the English Richard Thompson tribute was called? I haven't heard of this. Who's on it? Tom Smith
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At 11:19 AM -0400 on 4/24/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, I consider bluegrass alt-country. This isn't my objection to calling bluegrass alt-country, but I dunno how a staid, conservative genre like bluegrass becomes an alternative to a staid, conservative genre like country. It's just the easiest point to make. Bob
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At 6:33 PM +0200 on 4/23/99, Marie wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the world does not need anymore tribute albums. g It's one of those ideas that are better in theory. The only really good one is *Tulare Dust*, imo. And the Tom T. Hall tribute is pretty good. The Jo Carol Pierce tribute is also very good. Though it sure doesn't replace her own release. And Merle's LPs honoring Jimmie Rodgers and Bob Wills aren't gonna be tossed away so easily either. Bob
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Well, I'll stand in front of Rob Miller's fantastic jukebox there in his living room, in my best pair of overalls, with a haybale, and a feather boa drinking RC Cola, munching on a moon pie, and tell him Jr's right, and what the hell are you doing a "Knitter's" tribute album for anyway? What's next, a Golden Smog tribute album? How's about a tribute album to one of them Merle Haggard tribute albums? And hey, there's this really embarrassing Columbus band: a faux-gospel quartet, complete with fake witnessing and preaching done in a really bad hillbilly accent, atonal harmonies, etc...it's reaally funny, they and thier friends had some good chuckles. They should be signed! C'mon! I'm goin out on a ledge here, but they are truly alt country. The only more painful show I've sat thru in recent memory was the Blacks, who couldn't mumble their way out of the cloud of inarticulate hipsterism (and no, I don't know what that means, but it sounds good!). What people see or hear in this act, I don't get. Oh, wait, they have women who bare parts of thier bodies. That must be it. Matt "New wave dance craze it's still rock and roll to me" Benz -Original Message- From: Don Yates [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, April 22, 1999 8:14 PM To: passenger side Subject: Re: Updates I think we know who gets this year's Fowler Award at Twangfest for Most Embarrassing Private Post Sent To The List this year. Good one, Junior!g--don
Re: Updates and SXSW Stuff
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:00:01 -0500 Christopher M Knaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's on the list of "Cities with good alt.country music scene's that get a large amount of press." Um, Austin, erm, Chicago, maybe Nashville, maybe St. Louis - that's about it isnt it? Chapel Hill usedta be mentioned in the same breath as the above. I reckon it still should be, right? They've got pretty good basketball there too, he said begrudgingly. No quarter must ever be given to that team from Durham, tho. William Cocke Senior Writer HSC Development University of Virginia (804) 924-8432
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MATT!:Well, I'll stand in front of Rob Miller's fantastic jukebox there in his living room, in my best pair of overalls, with a haybale, and a featherboa drinking RC Cola, munching on a moon pie, and tell him Jr's right, Matt wins Friday's The Dave Purcell Rant of the Day Award. and what the hell are you doing a Knitter's tribute album for anyway? Yeah, what the hell? This bothers me. Poor Little Critter on the Road was a tribute album of sorts. It's redundant. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the world does not need anymore tribute albums. g It's one of those ideas that are better in theory. The only really good one is *Tulare Dust*, imo. And the Tom T. Hall tribute is pretty good. marie
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-Original Message- From: Marie Arsenault [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 9:42 AM To: passenger side Subject: RE: Updates Matt wins Friday's "The Dave Purcell Rant of the Day" Award. [Matt Benz] Well, it's early, I'm tired, cranky, bitter and itchy, the coffee ain't workin, and neither is the "everything" bagel. I believe I match the criterea for a Purcellian attitude
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In a message dated 99-04-22 17:35:44 EDT, you write: Yates opines: Anyway, it's too bad the person who wrote that essay spent so much time with the cartoon crowd down there -- he/she must've missed James Hand, Justin Trevino, Don Walser, Paul Burch, Dale Watson and all the other hardcore traditionalists types that played this year.--don Mark Rubin writes: Ah, but that's the point. Those artists aren't "alt." anything. They are country and western artists, period. Let's get that established once and for all. well, what the hell is alt country then? The most reasonable definition I've been able to come up with is anything with country roots that Hot New Country stations won't get near, touch, play, mention, support, blah, blah, blah, which would include Walsner, Paul Burch, Dale Wartson, etc. Elena Skye
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In a message dated 99-04-22 17:47:51 EDT, Jon writes: Well, it was part of the premise - that lousy performances/performers are especially destructive to the "roots music movement." Lousy music is a drag, but since when has sucky music stopped talented musicians from making great music? Elena Skye
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well, what the hell is alt country then? The most reasonable definition I've been able to come up with is anything with country roots that Hot New Country stations won't get near, touch, play, mention, support, blah, blah, blah, which would include Walsner, Paul Burch, Dale Wartson, etc. Yeah, but that doesn't include a lot of stuff that gets put in that bag, unless you use a microscope to search out those roots (and that's giving it the benefit of the doubt). Wait a minute, isn't this where I came in? Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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M Rubin wrote: Yates opines: Anyway, it's too bad the person who wrote that essay spent so much time with the cartoon crowd down there -- he/she must've missed James Hand, Justin Trevino, Don Walser, Paul Burch, Dale Watson and all the other hardcore traditionalists types that played this year.--don Ah, but that's the point. Those artists aren't "alt." anything. They are country and western artists, period. Let's get that established once and for all. Yeah, see, as far as I concerned, what we do and what I like to produce is not alt anything, it is in fact where country music would have gone if it had been allowed to progress naturally. Lots of us have taken our art to the powers that be and been rebuffed in favor of kids in hats and little girls straight off the cover of Cosmo. Also, we ain't traditionalists, either, we are doing something new but with an understanding of where we come from. -- Joe Gracey President-For-Life, Jackalope Records http://www.kimmierhodes.com
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Elena (?) wrote: Lousy music is a drag, but since when has sucky music stopped talented musicians from making great music? And Jon W replied: It hasn't, but it can make it harder for them to get heard, both because of the turn-off factor already mentioned - "Yeesh, those guys couldn't carry a tune in a paper bag. If that's what bluegrass/alt.country/blues is, I don't like it." Jon, isn't your turn-off factor above applicable to any genre? Seems to me that there are a lot more 'musicians who suck' than 'musicians who rule' in every realm, including rock, country, blues, oldtime, jazz, cajun, new age, native american drumming, and Tuvan throat singing. Or are you making a different kind of claim? Just searching for some clarification here. ~Greg, definitely in the musicians who suck category ___ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
Re: Updates and SXSW Stuff
CK sez: Dave, who hates all things Chicago... Not true. Just very glad to be back home, that's all. And as far as your specific examples go, you eliminated one from the genre - even tho they are the 'corner stone band' on an insurgent country label, and you dismiss another band (who loads of people like) because they're not your 'bag of chips.' Kinda reduces the number of data points, eh? Read Linda's concert list tomorrow - there's ALOT of stuff going on. Well, in throwing out the Wacos, it's not a matter of reducing the number of data points, it's pointing out the relative weakness of a supposedly great scene when one of the "cornerstones" of the alt.country lot is, in fact, a rock band (and a good one -- I like the Wacos a lot) and three others -- Moonshine Willy, the Blacks, and Handsome Family -- suck. Most others are mediocre at best. And are we separating press coverage from the acts themselves? Is there a fantastic Sioux City music scene with all great original alt.country bands and no sucky ones and there just arent enough music journalists to cover it? Doubt it. Do folks pay attention to what it going on in Chicago just because its a big city? Yup. Erm...how exactly could a scene be overrated w/o some sort of attention being paid to it? I'm not saying there aren't any good alt.country bands in Chicago -- there are a handful, and I listed the ones I like. My point is that the scene isn't deserving of all the accolades and attention throw its way. The majority of the alt.country in Chicago is the kind that deserves the scorn Mark's Deep Throat pal was railing on: bands full of poorly written songs, scenesters climbing on the bandwagon, and loads of bad Yee Haw! hillbilly schtick. I'll wouldn't get so rankled about it if so much attention weren't paid to bad bands. I'm hardly a roots music purist, but watching indie rock hipsters don overalls and write bad songs about moonshine and fucking their cousins and crap like that pisses me off, when there are so many good and deserving bands who don't get the attention. Just speaking of local bands: Big In Iowa are doing just fine here, but if they were based in Chicago, they'd be huge; Prospect Hill has more chops and great original songs than most bands anywhere; and Dallas Moore does the outlaw country thing as well as anyone. Any number of the good bands on P2 are deserving of more attention than shit like Moonshine Willy. CK going to see the over rated chicagoan Sally Timms opening for the over rated Alejandro Escovedo Orchestra Dave, who thinks Sally Timms has a gorgeous voice but sings country music with all the soul of a wet dishrag, and who would never call Alejandro overrated in a million years...I'm seeing him four blocks from my house on Tuesday, in fact... *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
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Lousy music is a drag, but since when has sucky music stopped talented musicians from making great music? It hasn't, but it can make it harder for them to get heard, both because of the turn-off factor already mentioned - "Yeesh, those guys couldn't carry a tune in a paper bag. If that's what bluegrass/alt.country/blues is, I don't like it." - and because it's often the case, at least in my experience, that lousy bands will play for next to nothing. Or nothing. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger You know, this sort of musical Gresham's Law -- that bad music represents a threat to the good -- has been discussed here before (we talked about it in relationship to Split Lip Rayfield, if I recall), and I still just don't buy it. "Boy if weren't for those damn Moonshine Cousinfuckers (insert "sucky" alt.country act of your choice here) misleading everyone about alt.country, they'd all be listening to Dale Watson and Hayseed." This kind of thinking smacks of an elitism that I can't tolerate -- as if the "sucky" bands are doing something they shouldn't be allowed to do, or are actually harming the bands a certain cogniscenti deem to be "real" (read, band with chops, bands that are sincere, bands that write "good" songs, etc. ) If you think a band sucks, fine, but don't blame them for turning off audiences from stuff you happen to like better. Now as for the major-label marketing machine, which tends to push the bland crap least offensive to the broadest swath of the mass audience at the expense of edgier acts, that's another story(and not, I think, what was being talked about at SXSW). Todd
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#1 Allen Iverson fan Todd Larson wrote: You know, this sort of musical Gresham's Law -- that bad music represents a threat to the good -- has been discussed here before...snipThis kind of thinking smacks of an elitism that I can't tolerate -- as if the "sucky" bands are doing something they shouldn't be allowed to do, or are actually harming the bands a certain cogniscenti deem to be "real" (read, band with chops, bands that are sincere, bands that write "good" songs, etc. ) If you think a band sucks, fine, but don't blame them for turning off audiences from stuff you happen to like better. In the case of introducing outsiders/newcomers to the alt.country/bluegrass/whatever, I think it's a matter of pragmatism rather than elitism. A good example is a good friend and his wife visiting me in Chicago. Neither of them have ever listened to anything rootsy and the only alt.country they owned was on tapes I made them for Xmas every year. I took them to see Blue Mountain open for Robbie Fulks and they were converted. They've since gone on to see the Wacos, BR5-49, V-Roys and many others. Now it's not to say that they'd never again check out roots music if I took them to see Moonshine Willy and they hated them. But given most people's busy schedules and abundant entertainment choices, there's a good chance a lousy band (and it's not solely a matter of chops or a lack thereof) *would* turn them off to roots music for good. How many of us have gone back to a restaurant we hated the first time around? Bummed that there was no good place to insert the phrase "shit sick," Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
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Greg says: Elena (?) wrote: Lousy music is a drag, but since when has sucky music stopped talented musicians from making great music? And Jon W replied: It hasn't, but it can make it harder for them to get heard, both because of the turn-off factor already mentioned - "Yeesh, those guys couldn't carry a tune in a paper bag. If that's what bluegrass/alt.country/blues is, I don't like it." Jon, isn't your turn-off factor above applicable to any genre? Seems to me that there are a lot more 'musicians who suck' than 'musicians who rule' in every realm, including rock, country, blues, oldtime, jazz, cajun, new age, native american drumming, and Tuvan throat singing. Or are you making a different kind of claim? Just searching for some clarification here. The thread started out from Mr. Anonymous's point that sucky music is hurting "the roots music movement," which would probably g include some of the stuff Greg's listed. Think for a minute about how different kinds of music get exposure. Rock, pop, country - these are mass genres, and anyone with even a mild interest (or even no interest at all) gets exposed to a fair amount of their stuff willy-nilly or with the most minimal kinds of effort, like turning on the radio and dialing around for about 30 seconds; fringier stuff gets corresponding less exposure, meaning that a sucky performance almost certainly forms a higher percentage of a newbie's total exposure to the style. Leaving aside for the moment the important question of what constitutes quality in a given style, even if the percentage of sucksters is the same across the board, the likelihood is that it will form a higher percentage of the total exposure someone new gets to a style in the crucial first contact stages, when s/he's least able to evaluate its place in that style. Plus which, all of the mechanisms that function, in part, to screen out incompetent (an important subset of sucky) stuff, don't operate nearly as well in the fringier worlds; some of that might be by design, but some of it's just a function of fringiness per se. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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Um...no it wouldn't. It would turn them off to that band, and possibly hanging out with you. Its a matter of "My Mix Tape/Top-Ten-List/Music Recomendations Define Me". They're your friends, and chances are you're not gonna drag them out to see Moonshine Willy so the question is moot. -- From: "Dave Purcell" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "passenger side" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Updates Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999, 1:14 PM But given most people's busy schedules and abundant entertainment choices, there's a good chance a lousy band (and it's not solely a matter of chops or a lack thereof) *would* turn them off to roots music for good.
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You know, this sort of musical Gresham's Law -- that bad music represents a threat to the good -- has been discussed here before (we talked about it in relationship to Split Lip Rayfield, if I recall), and I still just don't buy it. "Boy if weren't for those damn Moonshine Cousinfuckers (insert ... This kind of thinking smacks of an elitism that I can't tolerate -- as if the "sucky" bands are doing something they shouldn't be allowed to do, or are actually harming the bands a certain cogniscenti deem to be "real" (read, band with chops, bands that are sincere, bands that write "good" songs, etc. ) If you think a band sucks, fine, but don't blame them for turning off audiences from stuff you happen to like better. Todd Why not blame them, if that's what they're doing? And there's a big difference between criticizing someone for art that's been thrust into the public right-of-way, and saying they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I don't even know whom we're talking about. -- Terry Smith
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Wildcat apologist Dave wrote: But given most people's busy schedules and abundant entertainment choices, there's a good chance a lousy band (and it's not solely a matter of chops or a lack thereof) *would* turn them off to roots music for good. How many of us have gone back to a restaurant we hated the first time around? But did that stop you from going to restaurants altogether? I really doubt that people go to see bands as representatives of a genre, as if the gig is a trial for a style of music, especially one as loosely defined as al.country. Seems more likely that they'd just write off the particular band -- it might not win them over, or get them to delve further into the genre, but I doubt that they'd carry a bias against the genre based on one of its practicioners...and if that's the only chance you get to introduce them to the music, then shame on you for taking them to something that sucks..g Anyway, as I said, the real problem I have w/ your scenario above is when some kind of *blame* is placed on the sucky band, like they're failing to withhold the standards of the club and thus ruining it for the rest of the members. That's the subtext of these discussions, I think.
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Geez, why is this so difficult to get across? As Dave wrote: But given most people's busy schedules and abundant entertainment choices, there's a good chance a lousy band (and it's not solely a matter of chops or a lack thereof) *would* turn them off to roots music for good. How many of us have gone back to a restaurant we hated the first time around? To which Todd replied: But did that stop you from going to restaurants altogether? Of course not. Nobody's saying a lousy band will make people abandon *music*. But if someone goes to, say, their first Malaysian restaurant (to choose something fringey), and the food is overcooked and greasy and makes them practically retch, the next time someone suggests a Malaysian restaurant, they may well say, "No, I tried Malaysian food and I don't like it." This is, of course, ridiculous - they just don't like *bad* Malaysian food. But not having inside knowledge of the kitchen or any exposure to *good* Malaysian food, they may well steer clear of anyplace serving Nasi Goreng thence forwards. Carl W. PS. Translation guide: Food = music Malaysian = bluegrass or insurgent country or what-have-you for overcooked = clumsily played greasy = clubfootedly parodic Nasi Goreng = banjo, perhaps
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In a message dated 99-04-23 14:16:15 EDT, you write: The thread started out from Mr. Anonymous's point that sucky music is hurting "the roots music movement," which would probably g include some of the stuff Greg's listed. Think for a minute about how different kinds of music get exposure. Rock, pop, country - these are mass genres, and anyone with even a mild interest (or even no interest at all) gets exposed to a fair amount of their stuff willy-nilly or with the most minimal kinds of effort, like turning on the radio and dialing around for about 30 seconds; fringier stuff gets corresponding less exposure, meaning that a sucky performance almost certainly forms a higher percentage of a newbie's total exposure to the style. Ummm, who are these bands that are getting on the radio and turning newbies off of "altcountry"? And I'm curious who, besides Hayseed, passes the Mark Rubin authentic-altcountry-with-sincerity test. Elena Skye
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The thread started out from Mr. Anonymous's point that sucky music is hurting "the roots music movement," which would probably g include some of the stuff Greg's listed. Think for a minute about how different kinds of music get exposure. Rock, pop, country - these are mass genres, and anyone with even a mild interest (or even no interest at all) gets exposed to a fair amount of their stuff willy-nilly or with the most minimal kinds of effort, like turning on the radio and dialing around for about 30 seconds; fringier stuff gets corresponding less exposure, meaning that a sucky performance almost certainly forms a higher percentage of a newbie's total exposure to the style. Leaving aside for the moment the important question of what constitutes quality in a given style, even if the percentage of sucksters is the same across the board, the likelihood is that it will form a higher percentage of the total exposure someone new gets to a style in the crucial first contact stages, when s/he's least able to evaluate its place in that style. But Jon, isn't your example here different than the original comments, which were directed at alt.country bands playing at SXSW? Seems that there's a big difference between the bland, middle-of-the-road stuff marketed by major labels and played on the radio (in which case I think the villians are the marketers/consultants/et. al perpetrating the mass audience, least-common-denominator suckage), versus the smaller-label "insurgents" (the "fringier stuff") that a person would likely hear only if they're already in-the-know to some degree. If you're talking about these smaller bands, I don't think their suckage really hurts anyone or constitutes any threat to the so-called "roots music movement." There are always going to be lots of bands that suck, in any genre, but the fault lies not with those bands, but with the labels and marketers who elevate them over more worthy acts in an effort chase $$... Of course, as Terry suggests, this discussion would be easier if we knew what acts are being singled out.
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Todd says: But given most people's busy schedules and abundant entertainment choices, there's a good chance a lousy band (and it's not solely a matter of chops or a lack thereof) *would* turn them off to roots music for good. How many of us have gone back to a restaurant we hated the first time around? But did that stop you from going to restaurants altogether? I really doubt that people go to see bands as representatives of a genre, as if the gig is a trial for a style of music, especially one as loosely defined as alt.country. Seems more likely that they'd just write off the particular band -- it might not win them over, or get them to delve further into the genre, but I doubt that they'd carry a bias against the genre based on one of its practicioners... If it discourages them from delving further into the genre, then as a practical matter how's that different than a bias against the genre? I think Dave's restaurant analogy is actually a pretty decent one. If there's only one Chinese restaurant in town and it makes bad food, how many people whose first taste of Chinese food is there are going to go further afield in search of better? Some will, but a fair number won't. Whereas whether someone's first taste of pizza is good or bad, chances are they're going to get to taste it again, and from somewhere else (and maybe better), because it's omnipresent. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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Of course not. Nobody's saying a lousy band will make people abandon *music*. But if someone goes to, say, their first Malaysian restaurant (to choose something fringey), and the food is overcooked and greasy and makes them practically retch, the next time someone suggests a Malaysian restaurant, they may well say, "No, I tried Malaysian food and I don't like it." This is, of course, ridiculous - they just don't like *bad* Malaysian food. But not having inside knowledge of the kitchen or any exposure to *good* Malaysian food, they may well steer clear of anyplace serving Nasi Goreng thence forwards. Carl W. Well, this restaurant metaphor's a little silly to start with, but I would say that your explanation points out why, Carl. People going to a "Malaysian restaurant" for the first time are likely going there to try out Malaysian cooking -- I mean, the particular restaurant is subsumed by its category. If the restaurant sucks, they'll probably shy away from that style afterward. No big surprise here. But I don't think neophytes go to see, say, Moonshine Willy, to "try out" alt.country in the same way as a style of food. When their pals at some later date ask them to go see Robbie Fulks, I seriously doubt people are gonna say -- "Oh, no, I tried that alt.country stuff once, and it sucked, and I'm not gonna do it again." I guess what it comes down to is the degree to which a given band is known and marketed as representative of a certain genre, and the degree to which people associate their particular experience of the band with the entire genre. But the larger point for me, to say it one more time, is the notion of blame. The conversations here (and Mr. Anonymous' assertion that sucky bands are a threat to the roots music movement) is like a bunch of restaurant critics suggesting that the sucky Malaysian restaurant should shut down before they ruin everyone's taste for the good stuff... BTW -- have any of you popsters out there seen Jason Faulkner? Thinking about checking it out tonight, and hoping it won't turn me off from pop altogether
Re: Updates Beaver
Jenni wrote: Um...no it wouldn't. It would turn them off to that band, and possibly hanging out with you. Its a matter of "My Mix Tape/Top-Ten-List/Music Recomendations Define Me". They're your friends, and chances are you're not gonna drag them out to see Moonshine Willy so the question is moot. Well true, I wouldn't drag them out to see a bad band. But I have had friends see the local rag describe a band as "No Depression," go see said band because they've heard me talk about said music, and hate them. On a few occasions, anyway. On another note -- who is in Beaver's road band? My pal is the soundman for Tuesday's show, and he's a pal o' Troy, Jud and that gang...was curious who he's going to see on Tuesday. Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
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Todd says: I guess what it comes down to is the degree to which a given band is known and marketed as representative of a certain genre, and the degree to which people associate their particular experience of the band with the entire genre. Well, I'd say that a show billed as an alt.country showcase is one that's at least to some degree marketing the acts who appear on it as representative of the genre, and I'd say it's reasonable for people, especially those unfamiliar to the genre, to think that a show billed as a bluegrass festival is going to feature acts representative of bluegrass. But the larger point for me, to say it one more time, is the notion of blame. The conversations here (and Mr. Anonymous' assertion that sucky bands are a threat to the roots music movement) is like a bunch of restaurant critics suggesting that the sucky Malaysian restaurant should shut down before they ruin everyone's taste for the good stuff... This is where you lose me, Todd, because I haven't suggested, nor do I think Mr. Anonymous suggested, that some external authority ought to shut anyone down. I do think - and I'm speaking for myself, obviously, and not Mr. Anonymous, who may be making a different argument - that this is a fairly specific issue related to how these styles are perceived on first encounter. It's worth noting that the International Bluegrass Music Association's mission statement speaks explicitly about promoting higher standards of professionalism, and the phenomenon that we've been talking about is a big part of the reason why - not just with regard to the music itself, but with all aspects of the field, like sound reinforcement, recording quality, art work, venues, etc. - but the organization doesn't suggest kicking anybody out of the business g. I'll leave open the question of the extent to which those are issues relevant to alt.country. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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Todd Larson wrote: But the larger point for me, to say it one more time, is the notion of blame. The conversations here (and Mr. Anonymous' assertion that sucky bands are a threat to the roots music movement) is like a bunch of restaurant critics suggesting that the sucky Malaysian restaurant should shut down before they ruin everyone's taste for the good stuff... I'm getting sort of lost in these restaurant analogies. g I'm not convinced that Anonymous' opinion on this, as relayed by Mark Rubin, is valid. IMO, if a sucky band prevents another more worthwhile band from getting signed/played, I think the music public is going to figure that out in time. Hopefully those more worthwhile guys kept their day jobs and kept practicing. And as Todd said: This kind of thinking smacks of an elitism that I can't tolerate -- as if the "sucky" bands are doing something they shouldn't be allowed to do, or are actually harming the bands a certain cogniscenti deem to be "real" (read, band with chops, bands that are sincere, bands that write "good" songs, etc. ) If you think a band sucks, fine, but don't blame them for turning off audiences from stuff you happen to like better. While I can't argue that those unfamiliar with a genre will perhaps be repelled by a bad band, I expect that folks who are interested and curious about music are gonna be able to sort the wheat from the chaff, and not quit eating bread if they get a bad loaf. (Uh oh, that food analogy again) Those that aren't aren't likely to be doing very much more than buying some of the music they hear on the radio anyway. As far as "the roots music movement" is concerned, there's just too many styles of music under the alt-country big tent to make the argument fly for me, which is why I don't think comparing it to bluegrass is particularly apt. Haven't many of the "best" alt-country acts taken pains to distance themselves from the label anyway? TW -- have any of you popsters out there seen Jason Faulkner? Thinking about checking it out tonight, and hoping it won't turn me off from pop altogether Well, I've read very good things about his new record, but I didn't care all that much for the first one, but I've never seen him, so my advice to you is to avoid eating Malaysian food at that terrible place I've heard about, though I wouldn't counsel you to avoid that kind of food altogether. g b.s. n.p. Hillman And Pederson BAKERSFIELD BOUND
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But the larger point for me, to say it one more time, is the notion of blame. The conversations here (and Mr. Anonymous' assertion that sucky bands are a threat to the roots music movement) is like a bunch of restaurant critics suggesting that the sucky Malaysian restaurant should shut down before they ruin everyone's taste for the good stuff... This is where you lose me, Todd, because I haven't suggested, nor do I think Mr. Anonymous suggested, that some external authority ought to shut anyone down. I do think - and I'm speaking for myself, obviously, and not Mr. Anonymous, who may be making a different argument - that this is a fairly specific issue related to how these styles are perceived on first encounter. I'm not getting into this really, but from a rockabilly (and 50's rock'n'roll in general) point of view it has always been a problem that sucky bands create or confirm prejudice against the music among the general public (and No Dep. writers (oops)). And I think this is a point everyone who has the faintest interest, save maybe the worst Grease/nostalgia/swing dance/classic FM enthusiast, will agree with. The problem is, of course, that at least during some periods of time the alternative has been no bands at all. Anyways, I'm off to see the local excuse for a Western Swing band, and actually they don't suck too bad at all. See you all later. Tom Ekeberg Oslo, Norway http://home.sol.no/~tekeberg/
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Ummm, who are these bands that are getting on the radio and turning newbies off of "altcountry"? I could name some pretty rotten Southern Ohio bluegrass bands who get airplay on Southern Ohio bluegrass radio and get festival bookings, but I doubt the names would mean much to anyone not from around here (does Larry Efaw ring a bell? Burning Bluegrass? See what I mean?). Crowe has had a couple of good rants on this subject; I'm going to see if I can dig one of them up. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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Well, I have to come out of the woodwork to side firmly with Todd on this one. While I don't want to beat this food analogy to death, I think it's a good 'un, I just disagree with most of the predictions. I really think that most people are smart enough to recognize poor quality without assuming it's a characteristic of the genre (punk notwithstanding -heh). The diner with the rubbery overcooked chicken is not going to assume that all Malyasians like their chicken overcooked. They're going to assume that particular restaurant blows. Most people who stumble upon a bad band will not think "Hmmm...out of tune vocals, unsteady rhythms, poor playing skillls ... these must be the hallmarks of "alt.country." If that were the case, rock n' roll would've died out long ago. I hate people as much as the next guy, but c'mon, give 'em a *little* credit. And how about the dunderheads that like the crappy stuff, investigate more and realize that they like what we deem "the good stuff" even better? I don't think music of any genre has to be a zero sum game. Just the opposite. The more bands there are out playing in more clubs and getting more people out to see them and are garnering more attention for a genre and perpetuating the blah blah blah...well, from a working musician's standpoint, that can only be a good thing. Right? Uh...right? Hope this doesn't get me kicked out of the He-Man Hipster-Haters Club. Erin
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Jon Weisberger wrote: Well, I'd say that a show billed as an alt.country showcase is one that's at least to some degree marketing the acts who appear on it as representative of the genre, and I'd say it's reasonable for people, especially those unfamiliar to the genre, to think that a show billed as a bluegrass festival is going to feature acts representative of bluegrass. Jon, would you say then that if a 'bad' bluegrass band gets booked at a festival, the potential bad impression that could be loosed upon an unexpecting audience is the fault of the promoter? Or does the onus fall upon the band itself? Seems to me this is where Anon's arguments fail. I think Anon's beef is much more with the organizers, promoters, and marketers of SXSW, but all the ire falls on the bands. I believe that ire is misplaced. ~Greg, happy to have used the word onus, however inappropriately, in a post ___ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
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On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, William F. Silvers wrote: Todd Larson wrote: TW -- have any of you popsters out there seen Jason Faulkner? Thinking about checking it out tonight, and hoping it won't turn me off from pop altogether Well, I've read very good things about his new record, but I didn't care all that much for the first one, but I've never seen him, so my advice to you is to avoid eating Malaysian food at that terrible place I've heard about, though I wouldn't counsel you to avoid that kind of food altogether. g PSST Todd..that Bill Silvers doesn't know anything anbout pop music. You'll love Faulkner and his first record _Author Unknown_ is terrific. Damn grunge popsterg NP: The Schramms - Dizzy Spell JC
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Erin Snyder wrote: I really think that most people are smart enough to recognize poor quality without assuming it's a characteristic of the genre (punk notwithstanding -heh). Well, I hope you're right. With true music fans, maybe, but I don't think the general populace is so forgiving (or curious). I hate people as much as the next guy, but c'mon, give 'em a *little* credit. That's the funniest thing I've read out here in a long while (Jerry's rip on me notwithstanding)! Dave, who, as guest rhythm guitarist, is hoping to not drag down Prospect Hill so badly tonight that folks never come see alt.country in Cincinnati again g *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
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And while I'm at it, I hate that hippie psuedo-bluegrass pap that Jerry
Garcia inadvertently spawned. However, when my staight-up bluegrass band
opened for the god-awful Gordon Stone ("banjo" player famed for
collaborating with Ph*sh), I felt no moral qualms whatsoever about taking
hundreds of misguided hippie dollars and lining my purist pockets with 'em.
So bring on the crap, I say! It has it's hidden benefits.
Erin
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Another angle on this deal -- and I'll be short because all this talk about Malaysian food is making me hungry -- is the boy who cried wolf phenomenon. With a lot of these crappy alt.country bands -- fill in the blanks -- there's an inverse proportion between all the self-generated hype and the actual talent and inspiration therein. So if you go see a band, or pick up their record, based on, for instance, overheated praise that appears in their press material, or their ad in ND, and the band's not very good, you're likely to react even more negatively than if there'd been no hype to start with. I can't count the times that I've gotten excited about hearing a record, based on overblown bullshit spewed forth by the label or the band, and then listen, and think, Jesus, they play OK for having just stumbled upon their instruments four or five days ago. -- Terry Smith
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Hopefully my last post on this one This is where you lose me, Todd, because I haven't suggested, nor do I think Mr. Anonymous suggested, that some external authority ought to shut anyone down. Yes, perhaps "shut down" is too strongly worded, and I certainly don't think anyone is suggesting an "external authority" should put bands out of business (although it's an intriguing idea -- suckage police...) What I'm reacting to, pretty simply, is the tone of some of these conversations -- the ire that is aimed at certain bands who are getting attention (supposedly) at the expense of others. Direct it at the labels that sign them, the programmers that play them, the consultants that push them, the promoters that lump them together for alt.country showcases, etc. I do think - and I'm speaking for myself, obviously, and not Mr. Anonymous, who may be making a different argument - that this is a fairly specific issue related to how these styles are perceived on first encounter. It's worth noting that the International Bluegrass Music Association's mission statement speaks explicitly about promoting higher standards of professionalism, and the phenomenon that we've been talking about is a big part of the reason why - not just with regard to the music itself, but with all aspects of the field, like sound reinforcement, recording quality, art work, venues, etc. - but the organization doesn't suggest kicking anybody out of the business g. I'll leave open the question of the extent to which those are issues relevant to alt.country. True -- I suppose it's a bit different with bluegrass, where bands are so clearly identified as being a part of a genre which has, as you point out, an actual association involved with setting "standards" for the style and festivals arranged around that style, etc.
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On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:18:52 PDT Greg Harness said: Jon Weisberger wrote: Well, I'd say that a show billed as an alt.country showcase is one that's at least to some degree marketing the acts who appear on it as representative of the genre, and I'd say it's reasonable for people, especially those unfamiliar to the genre, to think that a show billed as a bluegrass festival is going to feature acts representative of bluegrass. Jon, would you say then that if a 'bad' bluegrass band gets booked at a festival, the potential bad impression that could be loosed upon an unexpecting audience is the fault of the promoter? Or does the onus fall upon the band itself? Seems to me this is where Anon's arguments fail. I think Anon's beef is much more with the organizers, promoters, and marketers of SXSW, but all the ire falls on the bands. I believe that ire is misplaced. And the ire especially seems directed at scenesters who dig the crappy stuff and don't dig/ignore/schooze during the "authentic" stuff like Hayseed.. Which is often the lament of a lot of people who can't understand why the American public continues to buy millions of albums from whatever million-selling performer they think sucks (i.e. Garth, Mariah, Celine). The main question I have is where are all these scenesters with straw hats and pigtail hairdos. Maybe I went to the wrong shows at SXSW 1998, but I don't think I saw a single person who fit that definition. I mostly saw the Slacker nation wardrobe of t-shirts and jeans, and maybe a couple of slightly better dressed industry sharpies. Nor have I seen it when I go to a NYC alt-country show. Is this aspiring sociologist blind to his social surroundings - or just too drunk to notice/care (g). Evan (still a little sleepy) btw, Kelly Willis was fantastic last night at the Iron Horse in Nhampton, Mass last night, as per usual. P2 Brothers Jeff and Kevin can testify further if need be. ~Greg, happy to have used the word onus, however inappropriately, in a post ___ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
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so my advice to you is to avoid eating Malaysian food at that terrible place I've heard about, though I wouldn't counsel you to avoid that kind of food altogether. g I'll keep that in mind, Bill, and stick with pizza. Have a great weekend everybody...and Jon, make sure to crack the whip tonight on that slacker Purcell. If you don't keep an eye on him he'll be pulling a Warner Hodges and playing the guitar behind his back or with his teeth... Todd
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Greg, a/k/a "Mr. Onus," says: Jon, would you say then that if a 'bad' bluegrass band gets booked at a festival, the potential bad impression that could be loosed upon an unexpecting audience is the fault of the promoter? Or does the onus fall upon the band itself? Mostly the promoter, no doubt. Seems to me this is where Anon's arguments fail. I think Anon's beef is much more with the organizers, promoters, and marketers of SXSW, but all the ire falls on the bands. I don't think so; after all, Anon says: The MOST disturbing part of the whole SXSW experience was seeing music critics, label folks and radio programmers also eating these bands up like they were the new Merle Haggard [emphasis added]. Which pretty much echoes something that Bill Emerson, banjoist extraordinaire, told Bluegrass Unlimited a few years ago (I'm hunting for that Crowe rant): "The problem with bluegrass is that there's too much unprofessional bluegrass. It's a type of music that anybody can play anywhere. You don't have to have an amplifier or an AC power outletThat's not to say that anyone who's doing it is ready to make records and compete for the jobs at the bluegrass festivals. Anyone with a few thousand dollars can produce a recording and send it to radio stations. Program directors, recording executives and promoters should be careful about who they're putting out there to represent the bluegrass idiom. To help it grow we have to concentrate on the *best* music we have." BTW, Erin, that "compete for the jobs" clause is the fly in the ointment of your more-is-better argument. Half-assed musicians who figure that they can overcome the deficiency of being half as good by charging a quarter as much (an approach that promoters are all too often willing to sign on to) aren't any help to working musicians. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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At 4:11 PM -0400 on 4/23/99, Jon Weisberger wrote: Ummm, who are these bands that are getting on the radio and turning newbies off of "altcountry"? I could name some pretty rotten Southern Ohio bluegrass bands That doesn't answer the question, which was about alt country... g Bob
Re: Updates/What's alt?
well, what the hell is alt country then? I'd say it depends on where you are coming from personally. I get many albums I feel are pure AAA but are promoted as Americana/alt.country. When I point out the lack of any resemblance to country music as I know it I get various responses. After hearing the raves on P2 for Beaver Nelson I eagerly anticipated the arrival yet after 2 listens couldn't find the twang at all. So is that alt. country? as opposed to The Trailerpark troubadours who are so obviously country it pains me to say alt. (and they have talent too! Mike Hays http://www.TwangCast.com TM RealCountry 24 X 7 Please Visit Then let us know what you think! Mike Hays www.MikeHays.RealCountry.net For the best country artist web hosting, www.RealCountry.net
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Matt B writes: The only more painful show I've sat thru in recent memory was the Blacks, who couldn't mumble their way out of the cloud of inarticulate hipsterism (and no, I don't know what that means, but it sounds good!). What people see or hear in this act, I don't get. Oh, wait, they have women who bare parts of thier bodies. That must be it. Damn, you find the Blacks more painful than a faux-gospel group? Those must not be the Blacks I saw twice at SxSW. The ones I saw totally fascinated me--they really knew how to work a crowd, and made quite interesting music that has held up to many listens to their CD. And that Gina is some kinda talent, and I don't just mean at wearing diaphanous shirts. Just my $.02. I'm as baffled by Matt's opinion as he will surely be by mine. --Jamie S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wavetech.net/~swedberg http://www.usinternet.com/users/ndteegarden/bheaters
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Also Where The Pyramid Meets The Eye (Rokey Erickson tribute), The World Is A Wonderful Place (is that what the English Richard Thompson tribute was called? Much better than the major label Beat The Retreat), and do the Ralph Stanley things count as tributes? There was also a pretty good Leonard Cohen one called I'm Your Fan (and a fairly lousy one called Tower Of Song). I was going to mention Fast 'n' Bulbous (the Beefheart tribute), but I saw what happened the last time I dropped his name in this company. Mostly I agree with Marie, but generally dull tribute albums sometimes do contain the odd where-the-hell-did-THAT-come-from cover version which almost justifies their existence. Richard -Original Message- From: Marie Arsenault [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, April 23, 1999 3:42 PM To: passenger side Subject: RE: Updates I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the world does not need anymore tribute albums. g It's one of those ideas that are better in theory. The only really good one is *Tulare Dust*, imo. And the Tom T. Hall tribute is pretty good. marie
Tributes (was: RE: Updates)
...do the Ralph Stanley things count as tributes? I'd say not, but there are two excellent tributes to the Stanley Brothers/Ralph Stanley: The Stanley Tradition and Songs About Our Savior (a/k/a The Stanley Gospel Tradition), both on the Doobie Shea label. Actually, there are a number of tribute albums that I like; even restricting the list to various artists ones (as opposed to single artist tributes like the Louvins' Delmore Brothers and Roy Acuff albums, or Jim Jesse's Louvin Brothers album), I'd heartily recommend A Picture Of Hank: The New Bluegrass Way, which has some great cuts by folks like Claire Lynch and Harley Allen, and Sony's Tribute To Tradition, which has quite a few more winners than losers - heck, even that Tammy Wynette...Remembered has some outstanding cuts. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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here's the piece Don's talking about: Ruminations on SXSW '99 and the "Alt.Country" phenomenon from an insiders perspective (and no, it's not me) : Well another SXSW has come and gone. And sure I saw a few good bands and hung out with old friends, but overall I am left with a really bad taste in my mouth about the state of roots music. I spent several afternoons and evenings watching some of the worst "music" I have seen in a long time. And most of these shitty bands were playing in the country, roots, americana style. One of the biggest problems with these bands is their obvious lack of musicianship. I'm no musical snob and every player doesn't have to be a virtuoso, but c'mon some of these folks can't play at all. They sound like 7th graders who just picked up their instruments. I'm open minded, in my book you can still be a worthwhile band and not have a solid grasp on your instruments if you do one thing - write great songs. After all the spirit of the music can overcome missed chords and out of tune harmonies. Unfortunately this pack of lame bands failed miserably in the song writing category as well. Suburban hipsters singing about "wacky" white trash topics like trucker's speed and trailer parks just rings hollow with this music fan. These bands don't seem to know the difference between playing a musical style and parodying it. I'm not a country purist or some kind of traditional music elitist. I don't mind a little rock in my country or vice versa, the meshing of musical styles has resulted in some of the greatest music ever. But to me the bastardization of the country form as done by so many of these "alt-country" bands is as offensive as Pat Boone singing Chuck Berry songs. These "alt-country" showcases were packed with scenesters dressed up like they were going to a Hee-Haw theme party. Women in pig-tails and guys in spray painted straw hats that would surely get their asses kicked in an actual honky-tonk. This crowd adores these bands and doesn't seem to care what is being played as long as the band looks right and has a kitchy name. The most disturbing part of the whole SXSW experience was seeing music critics, label folks and radio programmers also eating these bands up like they were the new Merle Haggard. The fact that these industry folks can't seem to differentiate between heart felt, honest country music and dumb, patronizing, nonsense blows my mind. If you were to ask any hard working country musician the difference they would tell you its all about the sincerity of the performer. Any 99% percent of these bands got no heart. The saddest part is the proliferation of these dime a dozen Americana bands is what killing the whole roots music movement. The pie is only so big for musicians, clubs, labels, and the more slices there are the less there is for the folks who really love this music and deserve an opportunity to make a living playing it.
Crappy alt-country at SXSW (was Re: Updates
If you were to ask any hard working country musician the difference they would tell you its all about the sincerity of the performer. Any 99% percent of these bands got no heart. And this is the only part of the anonymous diatribe that I might disagree with, or at least amend. It's not *all* about the sincerity. There are also some awfully sincere alt-country bands that are just, well, awful. No doubt that white-trash minstrel show shit rubs me the wrong way, but I'm also not a fan of the painfully earnest ones who have nothin' else goin' for 'em except their sincerity. Dull as dirt is not much better than a superficial schtick. Anyway, it's too bad the person who wrote that essay spent so much time with the cartoon crowd down there -- he/she must've missed James Hand, Justin Trevino, Don Walser, Paul Burch, Dale Watson and all the other hardcore traditionalists types that played this year.--don
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Mark Rubin spit: These "alt-country" showcases were packed with scenesters dressed up like they were going to a Hee-Haw theme party. Women in pig-tails and guys in spray painted straw hats that would surely get their asses kicked in an actual honky-tonk. Funny...I was at a real country bar out in the county on Saturday, and remarked to a bandmate that someone like Moonshine Willy or SCOTS would get their asses stomped if they got on stage. Nice rant, Mark. Dave *** Dave Purcell, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Northern Ky Roots Music: http://w3.one.net/~newport Twangfest: http://www.twangfest.com
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On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Dave Purcell wrote: Nice rant, Mark. Just to clarify, it wasn't written by Mr. Rubin (or so he sez, and I don't see any reason to doubt him). He attributed it to an anonymous "insider."--don
Re: Crappy alt-country at SXSW (was Re: Updates
Yeah, Don I can agree with most of this critique in general terms, until we get to the sincerity bit. As I've said so many times, the "sincerity" argument never gets it for me. But I'm certainly all for more musicianship and less scenester 'tude --junior
Re: Updates
Don Yates wrote: On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, M Rubin wrote: Just added an essay on the "Alt.Country" showings at the recent SXSW conference on my homepages, in case anyone was interested. http://markrubin.com Y'all might do well to check out that provocative li'l essay. It brings up the same kind of troublesome issues surrounding alt-country that we've dealt with here from time to time. Too bad the writer (and no, it's not meg) didn't name names.--don Well, yeah, it is too bad that the writer didn't name names, and while it might not have seen print otherwise, it's too bad we don't know who wrote it. There's some stuff there that I'd like to hear specifics on. I saw a couple of showcases with some stuff I didn't care for, but by and large I enjoyed myself. Where was this guy? And y'know, he might not have seen fit to name names, but we could... Like I said about pop music last week, there's always a lot more mediocre or worse bands than good or great ones. Do those bands, in whatever genre, drag that style of music down for the other people playing it? What makes "the roots music movement" different? Anonymous asserts: The saddest part is the proliferation of these dime a dozen Americana bands is what killing the whole roots music movement. The pie is only so big for musicians, clubs, labels, and the more slices there are the less there is for the folks who really love this music and deserve an opportunity to make a living playing it. So is this really true? And if so, why more so for this music than any other, where nobody mentions how the lesser-quality bands are spoiling it for everybody else? b.s.
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Bill Silvers says: Like I said about pop music last week, there's always a lot more mediocre or worse bands than good or great ones. Do those bands, in whatever genre, drag that style of music down for the other people playing it? What makes "the roots music movement" different? Anonymous asserts: The saddest part is the proliferation of these dime a dozen Americana bands is what killing the whole roots music movement. The pie is only so big for musicians, clubs, labels, and the more slices there are the less there is for the folks who really love this music and deserve an opportunity to make a living playing it. So is this really true? And if so, why more so for this music than any other, where nobody mentions how the lesser-quality bands are spoiling it for everybody else? I think it's true, and it can be heard, though usually not in public and usually not for attribution, from a lot of pro-level bluegrassers as well (synchronistically, someone on folkdj-l recently posted in passing a short comment from another unidentified musician saying exactly the same thing with regard to bluegrass; as it happens, I know the guy who made it, and he's definitely a higher-quality type). As for why the "roots music movement" is different in this regard, the short answer, IMO, is unfamiliarity. People's exposure to bluegrass, or alt.country, for instance, is a lot smaller and a lot chancier, hence the greater likelihood that hearing someone who, pardon my French, sucks will turn the first-time observer off; s/he's more likely to take the lousy performance as typical of the genre. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Jon Weisberger wrote: As for why the "roots music movement" is different in this regard, the short answer, IMO, is unfamiliarity. People's exposure to bluegrass, or alt.country, for instance, is a lot smaller and a lot chancier, hence the greater likelihood that hearing someone who, pardon my French, sucks will turn the first-time observer off; s/he's more likely to take the lousy performance as typical of the genre. That's assuming that the performance is in fact lousy. What about bands that put on a show which may be entertaining even though their music bears no resemblance to the genre they're billed under? Heard a Freakwater song one time and thought it was "interesting," Geff King * email [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www2.ari.net/gking/ "It is a tool of ignorance." -- Joe Gracey, re: bass guitar
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Yates opines: Anyway, it's too bad the person who wrote that essay spent so much time with the cartoon crowd down there -- he/she must've missed James Hand, Justin Trevino, Don Walser, Paul Burch, Dale Watson and all the other hardcore traditionalists types that played this year.--don Ah, but that's the point. Those artists aren't "alt." anything. They are country and western artists, period. Let's get that established once and for all. Dave chimes: Nice rant, Mark. Sorry kids, I can't take credit for it. I only agree wholeheartedly. It came from a conversation with said "insider" at the back of the dance floor at the Broken Spoke. It all started when we noticed how nobody was paying attention to "Hayseed," who we both agree is the real deal. Sorry about the "deep throat" nature of the author. If I revealed the source, he'd be out of a job quicker than you can say "first amendment protection." I was just tickled pink to know I am not alone in my assessments. As for Jerald's note about the Statesman rating Chi-town as an "overrated music scene," be aware that they practice what I like to call "opposition journalism" so take that into account. ___ Mark Rubin POB 49227, Austin TX 78765 http://markrubin.com
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As for why the "roots music movement" is different in this regard, the short answer, IMO, is unfamiliarity. People's exposure to bluegrass, or alt.country, for instance, is a lot smaller and a lot chancier, hence the greater likelihood that hearing someone who, pardon my French, sucks will turn the first-time observer off; s/he's more likely to take the lousy performance as typical of the genre. That's assuming that the performance is in fact lousy. Well, it was part of the premise - that lousy performances/performers are especially destructive to the "roots music movement." Bill asked why they'd be more harmful in that area as opposed to others, given that there are so many crappy performances/performers in all genres. What about bands that put on a show which may be entertaining even though their music bears no resemblance to the genre they're billed under? More complicated problem, I guess, but certainly not as harmful as unentertaining ones g. Heard a Freakwater song one time and thought it was "interesting," One of the online CD stores has a RealAudio clip of their, ahem, rendition of "Put My Little Shoes Away." As someone who's doubtless familiar with Monroe's, Wiseman's and other bluegrass versions, you oughta check it out, Geff. "Interesting" doesn't begin to describe it. Jon Weisberger, Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger
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On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, M Rubin wrote: Ah, but that's the point. Those artists aren't "alt." anything. They are country and western artists, period. Let's get that established once and for all. Oh, I'm well aware of that -- I was just pointing out that it seemed silly for our anonymous essayist to waste a lotta time seeing bands he/she couldn't stand when there were plenty of folks playing down there that they probably would've enjoyed a helluva lot more. Many of 'em weren't playin' the official showcases, but they were still pretty easy to find. Sorry kids, I can't take credit for it. I only agree wholeheartedly. It came from a conversation with said "insider" at the back of the dance floor at the Broken Spoke. It all started when we noticed how nobody was paying attention to "Hayseed," who we both agree is the real deal. "Nobody" paying attention? Maybe from your vantage point shmoozing in the back of the Spoke.g Where I was sitting (literally at Hayseed's feet), the crowd was in rapt attention. Sorry about the "deep throat" nature of the author. If I revealed the source, he'd be out of a job quicker than you can say "first amendment protection." I was just tickled pink to know I am not alone in my assessments. I think you've been away from P2 for too long -- there wasn't anything in the rant that hasn't been said here many times. And even from folks with their real names attached!g Not that it wasn't fun to toss that rant into the mix. Still, as a critique of a musical style it was kinda wishy-washy. It would've been more useful if specific bands were cited.--don
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Heh, apologies for the messge meant for Mark Rubin g.
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I think we know who gets this year's Fowler Award at Twangfest for Most Embarrassing Private Post Sent To The List this year. Good one, Junior!g--don
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Always ready to please, Don g. Laura will get to laugh at me, this time... --jr.
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Yeah, I'm laughing alright! I'm also wondering which bands you're talking about. HOpefully, not my boyfriend's band, buster! Ha! LF At 07:21 PM 4/22/99 -0500, you wrote: Always ready to please, Don g. Laura will get to laugh at me, this time... --jr.
Re: Updates and SXSW Stuff
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 22-Apr-99 Updates and SXSW Stuff by Christopher M Knaus@juno What's on the list of "Cities with good alt.country music scene's that get a large amount of press." Um, Austin, erm, Chicago, maybe Nashville, maybe St. Louis - that's about it isnt it? The San Francisco Bay area doesn't do too badly, though Chicago's given me as much new music to like (Gastr Del Sol, Pinetop Seven, Freakwater, Robbie Fulks, Green, Flying Luttenbachers, Kahil El'Zabar, Handsome Family, Wacos/Mekons/Sally Timms, 8 Bold Souls, Oliver Lake, Dianogah, etc.) as any town has this decade. Carl Z.
