Re: [silk] Need some help
But I blame them for sending all the religious extremists here some several hundreds of years ago. They didn't send them -- the Puritans went of their own free will, having first been unhappy in england and then having been afraid that their children were growing up far too tolerant among the dutch. Next time I hear a US american moaning that middle eastern societies (a) have too much religious influence in politics (b) execute criminals barbarically and (c) have silly hangups about how much skin a woman may modestly show, I will have to laugh*. -Dave * although it would be difficult to top GW "outside countries shouldn't meddle in Iraq's internal affairs" B for sheer lack of reflectivity...
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Sat, 25/4/09, Ravi Bellur wrote: > From: Ravi Bellur > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Saturday, 25 April, 2009, 9:25 PM > Welcome to our western nightmare: men > are the eye candy accessories. > http://omg.yahoo.com/news/melissa-rycroft-and-beau-make-red-carpet-debut-at-us-hot-hollywood-party/21664?nc > > Sad that the wrong side won (instead of liberating women > from superficial > oppression, we just subsumed men to the same thing... that > said, the west is > full of single mom's raising the children of passion and > looking for stable > men to do this. Nothing wrong with that, but from an > evolutionary > perspective, what genes are being progenerated? Maybe > that's why India seems > so nutty about controlling (and out of respect for this > list, I'll walk away > from the obvious, latin based double entrendre) whom women > are with. > > That said, on the discovery channel, I'm watching a naked > sadhu pull a jeep > with his penis. This is one crazy place -- and I mean that > in the best and > worst ways, simultaneously. Oh dear. Have you really, really nothing else to do on a Saturday evening? Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/?fr=om_email_firefox
Re: [silk] Need some help
Welcome to our western nightmare: men are the eye candy accessories. http://omg.yahoo.com/news/melissa-rycroft-and-beau-make-red-carpet-debut-at-us-hot-hollywood-party/21664?nc Sad that the wrong side won (instead of liberating women from superficial oppression, we just subsumed men to the same thing... that said, the west is full of single mom's raising the children of passion and looking for stable men to do this. Nothing wrong with that, but from an evolutionary perspective, what genes are being progenerated? Maybe that's why India seems so nutty about controlling (and out of respect for this list, I'll walk away from the obvious, latin based double entrendre) whom women are with. That said, on the discovery channel, I'm watching a naked sadhu pull a jeep with his penis. This is one crazy place -- and I mean that in the best and worst ways, simultaneously.
Re: [silk] Need some help
Thanks for this reply "." -- this was the kind of elucidation that helped me understand things better. One of the many benefits of Silklist. On the US election stuff, it vetted to the nation a lot of the gender discrimination that still exists. There's plenty of discrimination that persist, though things continue to improve. I look to Western Europe mainly as the vanguard of human society. The US has a way to go before we're there. But I blame them for sending all the religious extremists here some several hundreds of years ago. And I saw Goody Proctor consorting with the Devil!!! :-)
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Ravi Bellur wrote: > I must admit in my time here I am somewhat surprised at the bullshit women > have to put up with here, and that they seem to put up with it. If they want > this to end they need to fight back (metaphorically through many channels: > political, legal, community, self-defense, etc.). It can be done and there > will be conscientious people who may happen to have a Y chromosome who will > help, on principle. Men do support the women in their lives but that support may not extend to "all" women in the public sphere. The support also does not necessarily translate into a "women-friendly" policy/action in a public level. I see a difference, as in, she could be self-sufficient, educated (or less), emancipated (or not), independent, free thinking individual but her immediate family and friends would be her only source of support. While a man who might be protective of women in his family and want them to be free, etc... he would hardly feel guilty while assaulting a female stranger and care less about helping her or extending the similar freedom he takes for granted and enjoys. > I'm still trying to comprehend on what basis single women in an apartment > can be so nefariously dangerous. I don't think I get it (it being the > specious reason that these landlords believe). Here, society (at large) views women differently and as far as public spaces go, the lack of a support system (no 911 , legal and health support systems or anti-abuse laws) is glaring. She does have it tough as change is easier imagined than implemented. Partly because in the last decade some changes have been very rapid and made inroads (even into rural India)... the influx of foreign channels, aspirational changes, growth in economy, some legal changes in inheritance laws (and also those like : not insisting on giving a fathers name to the child in school, women can retain their last name, single (never married) women adoption facilities, ...), etc. The biggest and most visible change was women being allowed to go to school and University (and hence being allowed to travel distance to pursue a career and financial independence), something the earlier generation of women and her grandmother's generation never got. Hence, women are *expected* to be grateful for that freedom and yet *taught* that her final destiny is still marriage (and kids) and creating a good home. I doubt if culture or tradition has anything to do with it as different people interpret the word "family" differently. My unscientific analysis is, the pressure just upped for women with each generation wherein, while there is newer changes, there is no reduction in the expectations or responsibilities (or housework) she does. These have increased and the demand for a "super woman" is even more. The corresponding change of men handling house work or looking after babies has not gone up. While the social stigma for a divorcee or a widow is less, her responsibilities towards family have not reduced. Here, Sita is oft cited as the epitome of a dutiful wife and yet certain aspects of her life (refusal to prove her virtue (agnipariksha) and choice of leaving her sons and her husband instead of walking on fire) are rarely highlighted as virtuous and worthy of following. The blinded one-track views and "lets-discard-the-unpalatable-bits" of the cultural/traditional brigade that uses mythology/religion to subjugate women is the scary part. > I come from a country where > almost everyone has premarital sex (men AND women), and with mutiple > partners in serial (sometimes in parallel for the kinky types) over time, > before they get married. Plenty of dating. And we're prudes compared to the > Europeans or Aussies. People make their choices of their free will with Allow me to cite some differences. It may not be directly related and yet "gender" is relevant in the sphere of things. While women (in the US) have individual (sexual) freedom and are taught the same in school and get a lot of help from a legal perspective in case of abuse, I still wonder if she has it all !! Purely from a gender perspective (sans political agendas), it was strange to see the sexist (my fathers words) attitude towards Hillary Clinton (would a coloured woman's laughter have been called a cackle?) or the insistence of portraying the perfect family (Sarah Palin?) at the helm. It was strange to see the higher standards a female leader was held to whilst a common woman has complete personal freedom. The reverse is true in India where we have men idolising and (literally) falling at the feet of women leaders whose personal lives are anything but culturally traditional as far as the usual definitions go. This difference is inscrutable. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Wednesday 22 Apr 2009 6:56:39 am Bonobashi wrote: > You can't do anything with it, except kill babies and women. I put it to you that this is the wrong thing to do. One must always kill adolescent and adult men, and keep the women and children That is a time tested way of making radical changes in mindset. shiv
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Wed, 22/4/09, ss wrote: > From: ss > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 6:48 AM > On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 10:11:30 pm > Zainab Bawa wrote: > > Some pretty radical dislocations are required > i.e. traditions > > and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of > religion, identity > > and property. > > An understatement. > > I am in the middle of a radical exercise to assess the > psyche and measure > levels of bigotry in an admittedly small sample of a > predominantly educated, > non resident Indian Hindu crowd. > > This group accuse all Muslims of living in a blinkered > world out of which it > is difficult or impossible to dislocate them. However - > sufficient prodding > shows that the exact mirror image of those attitudes exist > among these people > too with no insight and therefore a complete inability to > change their > viewpoint or see things in a different light. that's called 'faith', Shiv. You can't do anything with it, except kill babies and women. Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Wed, 22/4/09, ss wrote: > From: ss > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Wednesday, 22 April, 2009, 6:19 AM > On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 9:41:22 pm > Bonobashi wrote: > > > > > Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture! > > In other words there are only two types of human you can > phind in this world > > A bangali and a-bangali > > shiv At last, Sheeb Thakoor in his wijdom. Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 10:11:30 pm Zainab Bawa wrote: > Some pretty radical dislocations are required i.e. traditions > and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of religion, identity > and property. An understatement. I am in the middle of a radical exercise to assess the psyche and measure levels of bigotry in an admittedly small sample of a predominantly educated, non resident Indian Hindu crowd. This group accuse all Muslims of living in a blinkered world out of which it is difficult or impossible to dislocate them. However - sufficient prodding shows that the exact mirror image of those attitudes exist among these people too with no insight and therefore a complete inability to change their viewpoint or see things in a different light. To me the most interesting thing is the presence of these attitudes among people who otherwise imagine that they are liberalism's gift to humankind. In the last two or three days (perhaps yesterday) I was reading a newspaper article (Times of India or Deccan Herald) about how "us and them" atitudes are introduced very early in pre-school life and that teachers in schools need to be taught how to handle with care. I tried to locate that article - but I haven't found it yet. Even Google uncle has been unable to help. shiv
Re: [silk] Need some help
Zainab Bawa wrote, [on 4/21/2009 10:17 PM]: > Udhay, can I send an attachment to people on this list? There is a brilliant > article on the historical basis of terrorism and responses to terrorism. It > is very insightful and written beautifully. The list is set to strip out attachments. I suggest just sending a URL to the list. Kiran (er, the one you're married to) can help with uploading it to a server somewhere. I can help too, let me know. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 9:55:42 pm . wrote: > that Bengali women are more beautiful when they are angry, true. Here's a bong woman you would not want to see angry.. http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repository/getimage.dll?path=CAP/2009/04/18/12/Img/Pc0121600.jpg shiv
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tuesday 21 Apr 2009 9:41:22 pm Bonobashi wrote: > > Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture! In other words there are only two types of human you can phind in this world A bangali and a-bangali shiv
Re: [silk] Need some help
. wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi Bellur [1] wrote: veg or non-veg fish bait? :-) ...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong friends who still Reminds me of this restaurant in Teaneck, NJ called Veggie Heaven. None of my friends believed that the Generals Tso's chicken they were having was not really chicken. References 1. mailto:rav...@gmail.com
Re: [silk] Need some help
Ravi Bellur wrote: That was supposed to go to the thread that's numbering about 190+ entries. dunno why it ended up here. Same thread according to my Thunderbird, just a different branch. :-)
Re: [silk] Need some help
Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote: LTTE is a very different form of struggle and organization and it cannot be I realize it is different. And I wanted to understand further and so we talked. At the end, it turned out his reasons (if you can call it that) was something similar to "identifying with the struggle". Doesn't every radical organization and terrorist outfit have a cause? They always justify their actions. Doing that (justifying) does not vindicate them or absolve them of the crimes they commit. Heck, Indian freedom fighters were called terrorists by the Brits. In the end, it's all a matter of perspective. Just like who the landlord wants to rent his property out to. But then, I digress.
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:03 AM, . wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Zainab Bawa > wrote: > >> > >> > > Dear . > > Discrimination in the rental housing market is not limited to religion. > It > > extends to caste, sex, nationality (and is there anything else under the > > sun?). > > Yes, Gender. Would it be wrong to say its the largest group being > discriminated against in many different situations? To (re)cite an > earlier experience, the landlord never asked me the woman's religion > or age (both of which I didnt know) but her singular status and living > alone upset him enough to claim that "single women are a big problem > that no landlord wants". Now that does get my goat (pun (un)intended) > as I never understood what its supposed to imply or mean or was I > reading too much into it. But he was not the first to say that so when > 2 brokers echoed his s(ub)lim(e)y thoughts I realized how dangerous > single women are, never mind that men speaking thus have daughters. > The irony is befuddling!! > I must admit in my time here I am somewhat surprised at the bullshit women have to put up with here, and that they seem to put up with it. If they want this to end they need to fight back (metaphorically through many channels: political, legal, community, self-defense, etc.). It can be done and there will be conscientious people who may happen to have a Y chromosome who will help, on principle. I'm still trying to comprehend on what basis single women in an apartment can be so nefariously dangerous. I don't think I get it (it being the specious reason that these landlords believe). I come from a country where almost everyone has premarital sex (men AND women), and with mutiple partners in serial (sometimes in parallel for the kinky types) over time, before they get married. Plenty of dating. And we're prudes compared to the Europeans or Aussies. People make their choices of their free will with their bodies and lives. If someone doesn't like it, they're welcome to remain celebate. While I'm no lothario, I can't take my situation and make it into some moral bullshit crusade and shove it down everyone's throat. The respectable way is to mask my bitter jealousy over my salacious ineptitude with alcohol and humor. :-) Mating issues and such are big deals to most creatures, and the tactics used are clever and brutal. Sorry, but usually the Animal Channel is the most interesting thing on TV that I can understand during those times when I feel chilling out in front of the tube. All this male obcession about who can access which vagina when makes more sense when you see how our fellow mammals behave. (but it doesn't make it right in a society that values freedom) Vervet monkeys in different troops, for example, alternate between trying to get with the females from a different troop (smart -- don't interbreed) but trying to stop males from other troops (violently) from getting with their females. Both positive and negative competition exist. But in Meerkats, the dominant female tries to stop other females in their group from having kids -- she insists on being the only one. Our ancestry is sad and brutal -- unbecoming of an enlightened, sentient species. Men can't blame women for the male sex drive and our need for self-control -- which is what I think is some part of this repression -- as if they women did something wrong to us because we feel a way that makes us uncomfortable or competitive or bellicose. We need to take responsibility for how we are and manage it. It can be done. There are entire parts of the world where that's the norm (and those who violate it can get in some serious trouble where they end up having many sexual partners of the same gender, against their will, in a maximum security prison... ironic indeed). If there's a way to do this other than the threat of law, I'd love to hear it. Because for most cases of sufferage and equal rights, it's a nasty battle that requires courage, legislation, and enforcement... at least until the old people with unenlightened views shed their moral coil and become some embarassing footnote in the history of humanity that kids years from now look back and giggle at, like I do when I read about European doctors in the middle ages bleeding people to treat them, or people not eating tomatoes becuase they thought the red color meant they were poisonous... http://homecooking.about.com/od/foodhistory/a/tomatohistory.htm If anyone wants to merge this womans rights things with pedestrian rights, you've got my support on that, too... :-)
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > And also, I am not an advocate of regulations to curb discrimination. As > has been pointed out in some of the postings, biases and prejudices are > very > deep seated. Applying regulations can be counter-productive in the sense of > increasing the antagonism. Neither do I believe that the market will solve > the problem. Some pretty radical dislocations are required i.e. traditions > and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of religion, identity > and > property. > Zainab, I'd be interested to know what you think the source of these dislocations is going to be. I can think of religious reform movements like Arya Samaj or Brahmo Samaj (both of which have lost their iconoclasm by now), and new public institutions. Are you thinking of the same things or something completely different? -- Aadisht Khanna Address for mailing lists: aadisht.gro...@gmail.com Personal address: aadi...@aadisht.net
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: >> >> > Dear . > Discrimination in the rental housing market is not limited to religion. It > extends to caste, sex, nationality (and is there anything else under the > sun?). Yes, Gender. Would it be wrong to say its the largest group being discriminated against in many different situations? To (re)cite an earlier experience, the landlord never asked me the woman's religion or age (both of which I didnt know) but her singular status and living alone upset him enough to claim that "single women are a big problem that no landlord wants". Now that does get my goat (pun (un)intended) as I never understood what its supposed to imply or mean or was I reading too much into it. But he was not the first to say that so when 2 brokers echoed his s(ub)lim(e)y thoughts I realized how dangerous single women are, never mind that men speaking thus have daughters. The irony is befuddling!! In retrospect, I'd have been more worried knowing that a woman I referred had to interact with such creepiness. That said, people still have the right to being bigots and narrow-minded when it comes to personal spaces or personal life choices. I too have a choice to ignore and avoid them or reduce my interactions to the minimum if necessary. Yeah, discrimination against women is not limited to Bangalore or India and probably exists everywhere in different forms. Heck, which woman is yet to feel safe while living (or traveling) alone in India after dark? Or escape spousal physical abuse in middle-class homes? or escape from incest, rape or sexual harassment? Or the fact that our courts still tolerate and allow an accused to use sexist language and red herrings in anticipatory bail applications[0]. [0] http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1249292 I could go on but this discussion on discrimination and incidents like the Rama Sene made me realize that gender (as a kid/teen, i'd never have believed it and i may be completely wrong here) is still the largest demographic group being discriminated against, not changed much over the centuries (in form perhaps). I dont see the media-hype around gender-related crimes (except the sensational ones) nor any proper studies undertaken across all demographics of Indian society. Did you really think an educated middle-class engineer/doctor/businessman cannot indulge in spousal abuse? Does class, caste or education have a role to play in gender abuse. I dont know. But our general populace does not care enough to bring about a change or a proper support system for the largest demographic you can find, except perhaps in sensational cases which get media attention and gather public support. Sadly most crimes and the female victims slip between the cracks, go un-noticed, or become mere statistics. >> And also, I am not an advocate of regulations to curb discrimination. As > has been pointed out in some of the postings, biases and prejudices are very > deep seated. Applying regulations can be counter-productive in the sense of > increasing the antagonism. Neither do I believe that the market will solve > the problem. Some pretty radical dislocations are required i.e. traditions > and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of religion, identity and > property. I dont know how the radical change will come about but harking back into time reminds me that discrimination is certainly not a new phenomenon when it comes to property. Erstwhile Mughal rulers used to collect the jazia tax from non-muslims while Hindu kings have fought violent battles over kingdoms and women. What is it about property/kingdoms are fiercely personal (unlike maybe a job?) and does evoke the beast (arent they territorial too) within humans?? -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
That was supposed to go to the thread that's numbering about 190+ entries. dunno why it ended up here.
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Tue, 21/4/09, Ravi Bellur wrote: > From: Ravi Bellur > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 10:43 PM > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM, > Zainab Bawa wrote: > > > What makes you believe that Muslims > > shy away from capitalism? > > > True, and there's also that matter of the bazzillions we > pay to Muslim > businessmen for oil (granted not in India, but remember > that 17 of the 19 > terrorists to whom 9/11 is attributed were Saudi Arabian). > The west in > particular has made them some of the richest people in the > world. > > And to be honest, the west (and the US) has meddled > extensively in that > region, mostly to dire results (not to mention counter to > the values of > democracy and freedom that we ought to be prosetylizing in > the world). > > But that's just because they had the gall to be sitting on > top of OUR oil! > (to be said in a Texan accent to best suitably mock those > in American > businessmen who thought that way... who probably also ate a > lot of steak, > but I doubt that was the root cause of their "moral > flexibility"). > > Ask Salvador Allende what happens when you try to get in > the way of our > bauxite! I don't know if George Washinton, Thomas > Jefferson, or Ben Franklin > would have approved. Exactly what is this crap supposed to mean? Where are we going with this one? Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > What makes you believe that Muslims > shy away from capitalism? True, and there's also that matter of the bazzillions we pay to Muslim businessmen for oil (granted not in India, but remember that 17 of the 19 terrorists to whom 9/11 is attributed were Saudi Arabian). The west in particular has made them some of the richest people in the world. And to be honest, the west (and the US) has meddled extensively in that region, mostly to dire results (not to mention counter to the values of democracy and freedom that we ought to be prosetylizing in the world). But that's just because they had the gall to be sitting on top of OUR oil! (to be said in a Texan accent to best suitably mock those in American businessmen who thought that way... who probably also ate a lot of steak, but I doubt that was the root cause of their "moral flexibility"). Ask Salvador Allende what happens when you try to get in the way of our bauxite! I don't know if George Washinton, Thomas Jefferson, or Ben Franklin would have approved.
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > I realize these are isolated incidents, and exceptions aren't the rule, but > then exceptions are a clue. The alternative to some of the more progressive > Muslims leading the change is that we wait till the free market economy and > capitalism hits them hard enough that they are more concerned with making > money and living the good life that religion takes a back seat in their > overall psyche (simplistic, but there has to be some motivators?). > > I am responding only to a particular comment in your entire post. The rest of your post is for all to see on the list. I am amazed at your level of interaction with the rest of the world. What makes you believe that Muslims shy away from capitalism? The Bohras and the Khojas are hard core business people and entrepreneurs. The Bohras are even referred to as the Jews among the Muslims. Historically, the Hadrami Muslims who were travelling across the Indian Ocean region (spanning from the Middle East to South Africa to part of Ceylon) were traders to the hilt; their responses to imperialism was on the grounds that the Portuguese were blocking trade routes and were trying to build their empire through monopolistic means. Udhay, can I send an attachment to people on this list? There is a brilliant article on the historical basis of terrorism and responses to terrorism. It is very insightful and written beautifully. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
And how else do you propose I avoid being harassed by the police when it turns out that the person I rented out the flat to is a suspected terrorist. It looks like there are some 140 million muslims in india (of which a fair number in AP?). Unless there are also close to a million suspected terrorists who are considered landlord-harassment-worthy by the police, I'd say there are far more pressing worries to consider, such as how to avoid the hassle when it turns out that the person you rented out the flat to isn't timely with the rent. -Dave "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it and stop there lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove lid again and that is well but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore."
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:59 PM, . wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa > wrote: > > Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she > > would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay > > vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was > > refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism. > > Assuming that your Belgian and American friends are not Muslim, the > claim that its a plot to keep out the whole Muslim community does not > stand. It seems like an individual's bias about who should live in his > private property. Should he be hauled to jail for that? I dont think > so. He is just yet another narrow-minded person I'd would rather avoid > even if the property was rent-free. Its also a misnomer that "all > Hindus are vegetarian" which is more of individual choice or a > family's choice in some cases, but definitely not a religious one. > Religion per se is not evil, rather its the people who use (any) > religion to control and grab power or dictate terms to others that are > the root of the problem. What happened to your friends (and you) are > an individual's bias and by stretching that line of logic I can think > of gazillion personal instances when I have been discriminated against > on the basis of my gender, age, nationality, skin color, religion, > I happen to know a Sikh family who are staunch vegetarians and > would not wish to mingle or marry a person different from them. I > also know Jains who eat meat outside the house but toe the line and > would not dare risk offending the better half (or his parents) by even > mentioning "chicken tikka or kebab" at home. > > And yet, stretching that line of reasoning and argument is a scary > double-edged sword, as in, any women could easily take offence at any > matrimonial sites because they encourage Indian men to advertise for a > bride thus : "Male, 31 yrs, 5'10" very fair (brown-skin is so not > metro-sexual when you have skin-whitening products for men modeled by > the Badshah of Bollywood himself), handsome, highly educated > Phd/Engineer/Doctor/add education, add religion (category, subcaste no > bar. Wow, a broad-minded bloke !) seeks a mutually compatible > accomplished (read, willing to be my lifelong unpaid housemaid who > will provide sex-at-my-command) educated/working (another unsaid > euphemism for dowry in monthly installments) bride. The opposite is > also true but they dont sound very logical to me. Would it be > illogical and unfair to label every Indian male who advertises his > personal preferences as a racist and chauvinistic pig or claim that > "ALL men are rapists" because the proportion of men who rape is more > than the opposite ; which does seem like stretching logic a wee bit > too much for half the world's population being discriminated against, > if numbers count. > > Does'nt discrimination start the moment we divide, classify and > sub-classify things, people, animals, [add your poison of choice], > along various criteria? Being "different" is a form of discrimination > too but the last I heard, the politically correct name was > "diversity". In a biological sense, each of us is uniquely different, > if DNA matters. > > -- > . > > And also, I am not an advocate of regulations to curb discrimination. As has been pointed out in some of the postings, biases and prejudices are very deep seated. Applying regulations can be counter-productive in the sense of increasing the antagonism. Neither do I believe that the market will solve the problem. Some pretty radical dislocations are required i.e. traditions and paradigms that challenge the hegemonic beliefs of religion, identity and property. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:59 PM, . wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa > wrote: > > Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she > > would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay > > vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was > > refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism. > > Assuming that your Belgian and American friends are not Muslim, the > claim that its a plot to keep out the whole Muslim community does not > stand. It seems like an individual's bias about who should live in his > private property. Should he be hauled to jail for that? I dont think > so. He is just yet another narrow-minded person I'd would rather avoid > even if the property was rent-free. Its also a misnomer that "all > Hindus are vegetarian" which is more of individual choice or a > family's choice in some cases, but definitely not a religious one. > Religion per se is not evil, rather its the people who use (any) > religion to control and grab power or dictate terms to others that are > the root of the problem. What happened to your friends (and you) are > an individual's bias and by stretching that line of logic I can think > of gazillion personal instances when I have been discriminated against > on the basis of my gender, age, nationality, skin color, religion, > I happen to know a Sikh family who are staunch vegetarians and > would not wish to mingle or marry a person different from them. I > also know Jains who eat meat outside the house but toe the line and > would not dare risk offending the better half (or his parents) by even > mentioning "chicken tikka or kebab" at home. > > And yet, stretching that line of reasoning and argument is a scary > double-edged sword, as in, any women could easily take offence at any > matrimonial sites because they encourage Indian men to advertise for a > bride thus : "Male, 31 yrs, 5'10" very fair (brown-skin is so not > metro-sexual when you have skin-whitening products for men modeled by > the Badshah of Bollywood himself), handsome, highly educated > Phd/Engineer/Doctor/add education, add religion (category, subcaste no > bar. Wow, a broad-minded bloke !) seeks a mutually compatible > accomplished (read, willing to be my lifelong unpaid housemaid who > will provide sex-at-my-command) educated/working (another unsaid > euphemism for dowry in monthly installments) bride. The opposite is > also true but they dont sound very logical to me. Would it be > illogical and unfair to label every Indian male who advertises his > personal preferences as a racist and chauvinistic pig or claim that > "ALL men are rapists" because the proportion of men who rape is more > than the opposite ; which does seem like stretching logic a wee bit > too much for half the world's population being discriminated against, > if numbers count. > > Does'nt discrimination start the moment we divide, classify and > sub-classify things, people, animals, [add your poison of choice], > along various criteria? Being "different" is a form of discrimination > too but the last I heard, the politically correct name was > "diversity". In a biological sense, each of us is uniquely different, > if DNA matters. > > -- > . > > Dear . Discrimination in the rental housing market is not limited to religion. It extends to caste, sex, nationality (and is there anything else under the sun?). When I was hunting for a house, in two instances I was openly told that Muslims will not be entertained in particular households. In one case, a broker asked me if it was okay that the landlord was Muslim!?!?!? My friends in my Ph.D. center have faced discrimination on the basis of caste. In one case, the landlord openly asked my peer what caste he was. When my peer said he was not brahmin, the landlord said, "but you non-Brahmins have the urge to eat non-veg. How will you control it?" Now, this was seriously offensive. In a city like Bombay, there is very clearly discrimination based on religion - Muslims not allowed. In Delhi too, Muslims are not rented out properties because of the terrorism issue - any Muslim is a threat lest he or she turn out to be a gun sporting terrorist at the end of the day. In Bangalore, the discrimination operates on the basis of caste and Christian and Muslim sounding names are a no-no in South Bangalore (I know only of South Bangalore). I have come to realize that people are very afraid of what they see as overstepping traditions and therefore, non-vegetarians are not allowed on ancestral properties. This applies to people of whatever religion they are from. In some cases, I was told you can eat non-veg outside, but cannot cook inside the home. There is a certain belief about sanctity of tradition and property which operates in most of the cases. Sure, we need to respect people's sentiments of vegetarianism. My father refuses to eat non-veg in the aircraft if the passenger seated next to him is ordering a
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > I'm not sure, but your suggestion seems to be that "quit[ting] > drinking and smoking", "doing namaz religiously", and going to a > temple every Friday is anti-"progressive". Why? "He avoided hanging > out with us" seems to have more of a chance of being deemed > un-progressive, but then I'd have to get to know you and your buddies > better to take a call on that. > While this old friend has the right to do as he wants as long as he's not harming others, there is, in spirit, a difference between, "I want to do something different because it means something to me, but I still respect your right to be you" versus, "We are better than you, we act in this way -- I cannot be with you because you are unclean infidel." The latter much more condusive to intolerance and feeling ok in harming "outsiders" and I think there are a small number of provacateurs who use that to get folks to take that step. Or to feel it's ok to beat up Hindus celebrating a cricket win (I can think of few more banal things to evoke violence than professional sports). The fact is beating up anyone for that reason is criminal and should be prosecuted. I don't care what the mentality is behind it. I don't know much about folks "finding religion" as Muslims, but I can tell you from experience that some "Born-Again Christians" become insufferably patronizing and smugly superior-acting after their transformation -- apparently oblivious to Jesus' teachings on humility and loving others. And cut themselves off from those not of the same beliefs, and shed their "sinful" habits. Meh, if it makes 'em happy, let 'em. But if they think they can violate others rights because of their pious position, well, they've got another thing coming...
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Tue, 21/4/09, Bonobashi wrote: > From: Bonobashi > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 9:41 PM > > > > --- On Tue, 21/4/09, . > wrote: > > > From: . > > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > > Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 9:31 PM > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi > > Bellur > > wrote: > > > > > > veg or non-veg fish bait? :-) > > > > ...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong > friends > > who still > > insist that fish is a vegetarian dish. Serves as a > nice > > conversation > > starter over lunch/dinner. > > > > -- > > . > > > ?? > > OF COURSE EET EES FEESH. > > Jolo-phool, capisce? > > Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture! > The subject got mis-typed: it should have been Re: [silk] Need lots of help And the text should have started: OF COURSE EET EES PHLAWAR. The rest of it, ethnic slurs included, stays the same. Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Bonobashi wrote: > > OF COURSE EET EES FEESH. > > Jolo-phool, capisce? umm.. if jol is water, why is the 'phool' not a fool 21 days late? - A non-bengali, who has not mastered the language even after 2 decades with a bong neighbor. His mom made the oft-heard expression, that Bengali women are more beautiful when they are angry, true. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > So, basically I don't get it. I don't think we can compare them to the > Vikings. And I don't think this is just history repeating itself. And > forcing change (through military or other means) from the outside might > only > result in making matters worse (as evidenced in recent efforts) and maybe > if > nurtured from within, it might have better results? > > Kiran > Yeah, it was somewhat flawed of an example. But lets say that radical christians were able to get big funding and take over the US. It would be pretty scary as well. And maybe they'd be supporting christian martyrs worldwide to protect christandom. If you watch the documentary "Jesus Camp," it's scary. Little kids chanting about how they were christian soldiers and how they were in a religious war. Thankfully we have government agencies that keep their eyes on those guys, and most Americans, like most people in the world, I think, are moderate and just wanna live and let live (except Paul McCartney when he was writing that song for the James Bond movie...) A lot of religions have that part where they are the chosen people and everyone else is infidel shit. I think those who seize on that find it much easier to do whatever they want to outsiders. But ultimately, if it comes to crossing the street to avoid a perceived risky group of people, or showing one is above such thing -- in the individual case, I think we're programmed to err on the side of safety. It's much easier to be an idealist (I find) in a safe environment. :-)
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Tue, 21/4/09, . wrote: > From: . > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Tuesday, 21 April, 2009, 9:31 PM > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi > Bellur > wrote: > > > > veg or non-veg fish bait? :-) > > ...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong friends > who still > insist that fish is a vegetarian dish. Serves as a nice > conversation > starter over lunch/dinner. > > -- > . ?? OF COURSE EET EES FEESH. Jolo-phool, capisce? Ignorant A-bangali, out to DESTROY Bangla culture! Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 21:20, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote: > Somewhere during the third year, one of them lost his mother. There was so > much guilt drilled into him that after he came back a few weeks later, he > completely quit drinking and smoking. Started doing namaz religiosly and > going to the prayer every Friday (we usually were sleeping after a heavy > lunch or used the long lunch break to take the rest of the day off and the > weekend started early). And he avoided hanging out with us, and moved with > the other Muslims more. > > I realize these are isolated incidents, and exceptions aren't the rule, but > then exceptions are a clue. The alternative to some of the more progressive > Muslims leading the change is that we wait till the free market economy and > capitalism hits them hard enough that they are more concerned with making > money and living the good life that religion takes a back seat in their > overall psyche (simplistic, but there has to be some motivators?). I'm not sure, but your suggestion seems to be that "quit[ting] drinking and smoking", "doing namaz religiously", and going to a temple every Friday is anti-"progressive". Why? "He avoided hanging out with us" seems to have more of a chance of being deemed un-progressive, but then I'd have to get to know you and your buddies better to take a call on that. And when this day of capitalistic rule does come upon earth (is it a bit like the biblical apocalypse? or a bit more like ragnarok with the leftie gods in death throes?) what happens to all those liberals/progressives that believe "living the good life" isn't all that life is about? And what about those that want life with tinges of "the bad", "the spiritual", and other such devilish things?
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:21 PM, Ravi Bellur wrote: > > veg or non-veg fish bait? :-) ...a veggie fish bait? that reminds me of my Bong friends who still insist that fish is a vegetarian dish. Serves as a nice conversation starter over lunch/dinner. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > > An appropriate reply would have been sent your way if you took the > trouble to snip out the irrelevant parts of the conversation instead > of top-posted vague statements which seem like fish bait ;) > -- veg or non-veg fish bait? :-)
Re: [silk] Need some help
> However, the idea that Muslims should somehow be "cleaning their own house" > and taking care of these guys is stupid. Hmm...maybe..but the pressure on some of them who do think differently to conform is quite great. I felt that from one of the friends I mentioned in my post. Somewhere during the third year, one of them lost his mother. There was so much guilt drilled into him that after he came back a few weeks later, he completely quit drinking and smoking. Started doing namaz religiosly and going to the prayer every Friday (we usually were sleeping after a heavy lunch or used the long lunch break to take the rest of the day off and the weekend started early). And he avoided hanging out with us, and moved with the other Muslims more. I realize these are isolated incidents, and exceptions aren't the rule, but then exceptions are a clue. The alternative to some of the more progressive Muslims leading the change is that we wait till the free market economy and capitalism hits them hard enough that they are more concerned with making money and living the good life that religion takes a back seat in their overall psyche (simplistic, but there has to be some motivators?). That madrassa reformed kid I mentioned was a normal, school going kid. The family itself was not very well off, but they were doing OK. And they were very nice people. Their daughters (or at least one of them) were doing professional degrees in engineering (which are the most competitive to get admissions to) which is quite rare in Kerala Muslims in similar economic strata. So, basically I don't get it. I don't think we can compare them to the Vikings. And I don't think this is just history repeating itself. And forcing change (through military or other means) from the outside might only result in making matters worse (as evidenced in recent efforts) and maybe if nurtured from within, it might have better results? Kiran
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:02 PM, sur...@hserus.net wrote: > I've eaten camel in riyadh and kangaroo in perth. i just dont order meat > when others at the table are vegetarian I do cook special stuff just for them when I invite them over. Even when I have a barbecue, in California you're going to have vegetarians coming, religious, ethical, and/or health motivated. And I use separate cooking utensils and pans and all that jazz. I know from my own family how picky vegetarians want things done. It might be a little annoying, but I respect it. And I never expect them to cook meat for me. I've no problem eating veg.
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 9:02 PM, sur...@hserus.net wrote: > I've eaten camel in riyadh and kangaroo in perth. i just dont order meat when > others at the table are vegetarian An appropriate reply would have been sent your way if you took the trouble to snip out the irrelevant parts of the conversation instead of top-posted vague statements which seem like fish bait ;) -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > > On a slightly different tangent > What I find very interesting is the differentiation in discrimination > of different kinds in the media. For example, I see the reservation > policies followed by the current congress government/short-lived VP > Singh (though BJP / third front aren't any better - they are probably > worse) as damaging to society as much as the > Godhra/Kandamal/Anti-sikh/Anti-UP riots in > Gujarat/Orissa/Delhi/Mumbai. The only difference seems that in one > case the effect of discrimination are more longer term and less > visible (gory sequences of beating up people / burning up shops makes > more compelling viewing than students missing better opportunities for > better education). Also one is mostly class-based / caste based rather > than religion-based. Isnt the media (probably the world-over) only concerned about the upswing in ratings and advertising revenues than digging out the truth, a tedious job at best. A student not realizing his dream of being a doctor because a reservation category student with lesser marks than him made the grade is just not juicy enough to activate outpourings of sympathy. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
Oh, and I forgot one important point -- that playing up this "Muslim Threat" has been politically expedient for a number of politicians around the world (and definitely in the US). There's a different between the truth and the "truthiness" that gets demagogues what they want. And as far as whipping some young men up (especially when they're cut off from women due to cultural prohibitions) into a passionate violent movement, that's been going on forever, all over the world, and the leaders (almost always older men) get their own demagoguery benefits, both psychological, power, and fiduciary. And getting a population angry at an outside enemy is a fantastic way to distract them from domestic problems. And I don't think some of the guys in the metal detector or 9mm automatic ammunition businesses (or Halliburton) mind it too much either. Not to at all say they incite it, but I don't know how strong their motivation to see it go away would be. If there's no political motivation, then they just become gangs or skinheads or whatever. I think there's too much focus on trying to uncover the rationale rather than trying to measure the testosterone level. A bull elephant during their "heat" with high testosterone levels is predisposed to attack and dangerous to be around.
Re: [silk] Need some help
I've eaten camel in riyadh and kangaroo in perth. i just dont order meat when others at the table are vegetarian -- srs/nokia e71 -original message- Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help From: "." Date: 21-04-2009 20:59 On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she > would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay > vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was > refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism. Assuming that your Belgian and American friends are not Muslim, the claim that its a plot to keep out the whole Muslim community does not stand. It seems like an individual's bias about who should live in his private property. Should he be hauled to jail for that? I dont think so. He is just yet another narrow-minded person I'd would rather avoid even if the property was rent-free. Its also a misnomer that "all Hindus are vegetarian" which is more of individual choice or a family's choice in some cases, but definitely not a religious one. Religion per se is not evil, rather its the people who use (any) religion to control and grab power or dictate terms to others that are the root of the problem. What happened to your friends (and you) are an individual's bias and by stretching that line of logic I can think of gazillion personal instances when I have been discriminated against on the basis of my gender, age, nationality, skin color, religion, I happen to know a Sikh family who are staunch vegetarians and would not wish to mingle or marry a person different from them. I also know Jains who eat meat outside the house but toe the line and would not dare risk offending the better half (or his parents) by even mentioning "chicken tikka or kebab" at home. And yet, stretching that line of reasoning and argument is a scary double-edged sword, as in, any women could easily take offence at any matrimonial sites because they encourage Indian men to advertise for a bride thus : "Male, 31 yrs, 5'10" very fair (brown-skin is so not metro-sexual when you have skin-whitening products for men modeled by the Badshah of Bollywood himself), handsome, highly educated Phd/Engineer/Doctor/add education, add religion (category, subcaste no bar. Wow, a broad-minded bloke !) seeks a mutually compatible accomplished (read, willing to be my lifelong unpaid housemaid who will provide sex-at-my-command) educated/working (another unsaid euphemism for dowry in monthly installments) bride. The opposite is also true but they dont sound very logical to me. Would it be illogical and unfair to label every Indian male who advertises his personal preferences as a racist and chauvinistic pig or claim that "ALL men are rapists" because the proportion of men who rape is more than the opposite ; which does seem like stretching logic a wee bit too much for half the world's population being discriminated against, if numbers count. Does'nt discrimination start the moment we divide, classify and sub-classify things, people, animals, [add your poison of choice], along various criteria? Being "different" is a form of discrimination too but the last I heard, the politically correct name was "diversity". In a biological sense, each of us is uniquely different, if DNA matters. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she > would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay > vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was > refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism. Assuming that your Belgian and American friends are not Muslim, the claim that its a plot to keep out the whole Muslim community does not stand. It seems like an individual's bias about who should live in his private property. Should he be hauled to jail for that? I dont think so. He is just yet another narrow-minded person I'd would rather avoid even if the property was rent-free. Its also a misnomer that "all Hindus are vegetarian" which is more of individual choice or a family's choice in some cases, but definitely not a religious one. Religion per se is not evil, rather its the people who use (any) religion to control and grab power or dictate terms to others that are the root of the problem. What happened to your friends (and you) are an individual's bias and by stretching that line of logic I can think of gazillion personal instances when I have been discriminated against on the basis of my gender, age, nationality, skin color, religion, I happen to know a Sikh family who are staunch vegetarians and would not wish to mingle or marry a person different from them. I also know Jains who eat meat outside the house but toe the line and would not dare risk offending the better half (or his parents) by even mentioning "chicken tikka or kebab" at home. And yet, stretching that line of reasoning and argument is a scary double-edged sword, as in, any women could easily take offence at any matrimonial sites because they encourage Indian men to advertise for a bride thus : "Male, 31 yrs, 5'10" very fair (brown-skin is so not metro-sexual when you have skin-whitening products for men modeled by the Badshah of Bollywood himself), handsome, highly educated Phd/Engineer/Doctor/add education, add religion (category, subcaste no bar. Wow, a broad-minded bloke !) seeks a mutually compatible accomplished (read, willing to be my lifelong unpaid housemaid who will provide sex-at-my-command) educated/working (another unsaid euphemism for dowry in monthly installments) bride. The opposite is also true but they dont sound very logical to me. Would it be illogical and unfair to label every Indian male who advertises his personal preferences as a racist and chauvinistic pig or claim that "ALL men are rapists" because the proportion of men who rape is more than the opposite ; which does seem like stretching logic a wee bit too much for half the world's population being discriminated against, if numbers count. Does'nt discrimination start the moment we divide, classify and sub-classify things, people, animals, [add your poison of choice], along various criteria? Being "different" is a form of discrimination too but the last I heard, the politically correct name was "diversity". In a biological sense, each of us is uniquely different, if DNA matters. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
During the crusades, I'd have rather taken my chances with Saladadin than Richard the Lionhearted (the Europeans at that time were notoriously savage) -- and if I was looking for science and culture, you'd want to head to Baghdad not Paris. I meant to spell "Salahadin" not "Saladadin" which sounds more like a witty pun for a Middle Eastern style Salad on some chain restaurant's menu (ironic slip given the vegitarian discussion earlier)
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > I didn't say I would pass judgment that he/she is a terrorist just on the > basis of their Muslim name, just that I would be more wary. Since you've > culled out other parts of my post - I'll restate. I didn't say I wouldn't > rent to a Muslim, just not to somebody I didn't know at all or wasn't > referred to me by somebody I know. > > Contrary to how you make it sound, I *don't* avoid Muslims like the plague. > But neither do I want to be the open-minded stereotype-rejecting > progressive-thinking idiot. I find the best way to think of humans are a bunch of pretty much identical scared little hairless monkeys who mostly can't tell the difference between post-facto rationalized instinct and deliberate thought. We'll make great uranium miners for our oppressive space-alien overlords who won't care who's from what religion, family, color, or whatever -- no matter how much we protest that we're different and special from the others. I look forward to it. :-) That said, in 988 AD if you saw a bunch of big blonde guys in a long boat, you might wanna go the other way. In 1942 Europe, if you saw a swastika flag, you shouldn't assume the place is a Yoga institute (The Yoga Institute in Santacruz, Mumbai is full of swastikas). Were all Germans Nazis? The party membership was in the single digit percentages at its height. During the crusades, I'd have rather taken my chances with Saladadin than Richard the Lionhearted (the Europeans at that time were notoriously savage) -- and if I was looking for science and culture, you'd want to head to Baghdad not Paris. Some say white people have never been slaves, but I assure you that Germanians, Gauls, and Brittanians captured by Caesar's western campaign in the 1st century BC came to Rome in chains and were sold. And in the early 21st Century, chances are that a terrorist is going to be a young Islamic male more than a middle aged Belgian woman. That's just the historical timing at the moment. And a blonde male in a long boat will elicit less fear. In fact the chance that the terrorist is going to be a young male, or violence will come from one, is obviously more likely. Over 90% of the US prison population is male, and something like 50% are violent offenders. Before in the US the fear was anti-federal militia groups such as the affinity of Tim McVey, a white christian who perpetrated the largest act of terrorism on US soil (Oklahoma Federal Building, some 190 deaths including children). The FBI had been raiding groups like that accumulating weapons. That was part of McVey's espoused justification for his actions. I never voted for Bush. I've been apologetic for the impression he's given the world of Americans for 8 years. But I'm stuck with that stereotype. If I walk into a store dressed up all "gangsta" I will have my picture ID checked before I can use my credit card. If I'm wearing a nice suit, I won't be checked. However, if a US police officer pulls over a black person just for driving in an neighborhood that has a low African-American population, that officer is violating the civil rights of the person and is opened up to dismissal and charges. US officials and airport security are not supposed to profile. But as a young man of swarthy description, I fit a profile. If they want to search me, I don't mind. I've nothing to hide. And if there's anyone else who looks like me getting on that plane, please, check them. It sucks that people who happen to look somewhat like me were behind 9/11, but there's not much I can do about it, much like a peaceful tall Blonde guy in 988AD might be killed for being mistaken as a Viking. However, the idea that Muslims should somehow be "cleaning their own house" and taking care of these guys is stupid. I had no power to stop what was going on in Gitmo. Hypothetically, had I gone down there and knocked on the door with a letter telling them to stop, I'd have been thrown in the slammer. A palenstinian living by some guys shooting off rockets at Israel is going to get a bullet in the head or a rifle butt in the face if he goes over there and tells them to stop. I don't take responsibility for what any people who meet any of my demographic groups does. I'm a culture of one -- I didn't ask to be born this way -- and I will shamelessly borrow and use the best ideas of any and all groups of humans. I will not let retarded supersticious idiots from hundreds of years ago force my behavior (although if they had some good ideas, I'm game -- pick and choose). So my point: (1) I can understand someone being more worried that a young muslim man might be a security risk than other folks. (2) I still think it should be illegal to use such criteria to make decisions about commerce, including renting. (3) Treating women like second class citizens and beating up your family is never ok -- I don't care who or what says otherwise -- it's wrong. (Unless, of course a woman chooses to want to be treated that way, or if a family member asks to be
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Monday 20 Apr 2009 8:08:06 am Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > Forget single. Get the gujjus out of mumbai and you'd probably have a > better Mumbai than most (no wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat > - they have a CM they deserve) Ah yes leave Mumbai to the real heroes - Bal Thickray and his clan. shiv
Re: [silk] Need some help
> What constitutes terrorism is highly subjective. If you think struggles > based on identity, freedom and not wanting to comply with a hegemonic > notion > of nation are equal to terrorism, then your understanding of terrorism is > vastly different from mine. Violence is used when other spaces and avenues > for negotiation and understanding are blocked. There are enough Lankans and > Tamilians who contribute to the LTTE on various grounds and not all of them > can be bracketed as violence-loving people. It is a matter of political > consciousness and choice to support particular values that these > individuals > believe in. > That said, this instance is not an appropriate one to use in our > conversations. It has a different history, connotations and political > economy to it and it does not compare with the kind of discrimination in > housing markets that occurs in Indian cities. Agreed. I've not made up my mind. Maybe there are other reasons, I only stated it since from the discussion I had with him it sounded very flimsy. Kiran
Re: [silk] Need some help
What constitutes terrorism is highly subjective. If you think struggles based on identity, freedom and not wanting to comply with a hegemonic notion of nation are equal to terrorism, then your understanding of terrorism is vastly different from mine. Violence is used when other spaces and avenues for negotiation and understanding are blocked. There are enough Lankans and Tamilians who contribute to the LTTE on various grounds and not all of them can be bracketed as violence-loving people. It is a matter of political consciousness and choice to support particular values that these individuals believe in. That said, this instance is not an appropriate one to use in our conversations. It has a different history, connotations and political economy to it and it does not compare with the kind of discrimination in housing markets that occurs in Indian cities. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyan < kiran.karthike...@gmail.com> wrote: > > LTTE is a very different form of struggle and organization and it cannot > be > > compared blanket with terrorism, and other kinds of violence. I have > very > > close Sri Lankan friends, and "educated", whose family members have been > > killed in LTTE blasts and violence, and who still support the LTTE. The > > instance you > > cited of the person giving money to LTTE is a very very different kind of > a > > phenomenon and it has a different kind of political economy attached to > it. > > > I realize it is different. And I wanted to understand further and so we > talked. At the end, it turned out his reasons (if you can call it that) was > something similar to "identifying with the struggle". > > So on the face of it, it looks like a well educated guy who got influenced > through whatever means and decided to support terrorism (whatever the > reasons, it still means the killing of innocent people, intentionally or > otherwise). I intend to probe further, and hopefully I'm proved wrong. > > Kiran > -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
> LTTE is a very different form of struggle and organization and it cannot be > compared blanket with terrorism, and other kinds of violence. I have very > close Sri Lankan friends, and "educated", whose family members have been > killed in LTTE blasts and violence, and who still support the LTTE. The > instance you > cited of the person giving money to LTTE is a very very different kind of a > phenomenon and it has a different kind of political economy attached to it. I realize it is different. And I wanted to understand further and so we talked. At the end, it turned out his reasons (if you can call it that) was something similar to "identifying with the struggle". So on the face of it, it looks like a well educated guy who got influenced through whatever means and decided to support terrorism (whatever the reasons, it still means the killing of innocent people, intentionally or otherwise). I intend to probe further, and hopefully I'm proved wrong. Kiran
Re: [silk] Need some help
I would like to reply to your email at length, but I want to think through what I want to say. As much I want to think through what Pranesh has been talking about. But there is one thing that I have to immediately point out. LTTE is a very different form of struggle and organization and it cannot be compared blanket with terrorism, and other kinds of violence. I have very close Sri Lankan friends, and "educated", whose family members have been killed in LTTE blasts and violence, and who still support the LTTE. The instance you cited of the person giving money to LTTE is a very very different kind of a phenomenon and it has a different kind of political economy attached to it. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Kiran K Karthikeyan < kiran.karthike...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > And that will also influence your judgements. Clap, clap, clap. Applause, > > applause, applause. > > > Fine..I'll take the bait... > > And how else do you propose I avoid being harassed by the police when it > turns out that the person I rented out the flat to is a suspected > terrorist. > > I didn't say I would pass judgment that he/she is a terrorist just on the > basis of their Muslim name, just that I would be more wary. Since you've > culled out other parts of my post - I'll restate. I didn't say I wouldn't > rent to a Muslim, just not to somebody I didn't know at all or wasn't > referred to me by somebody I know. > > Contrary to how you make it sound, I *don't* avoid Muslims like the plague. > But neither do I want to be the open-minded stereotype-rejecting > progressive-thinking idiot. > > What you might not have guessed from my name is that I am from Kerala. The > place where my family stay in Cochin is a predominantly Muslim area, its > called Kakkanad which means land of Muslims. We have Muslim neighbors. > Their > son, after attending a madrassa for a few months changed into a different > person and started beating up his parents and sisters (they themselves > admit > that this was the reason, or at least it is after this that he changed). I > wonder what happened to the other kids who attended the same madrassa. > > I remember a whole bunch of people being beaten black and blue in Palghat > (where I did my engineering) because they went for an ill-advised "victory > march" through a Muslim neighbourhood after India beat Pakistan in cricket! > :). > > In my college, a few of my Muslim friends were no longer invited to the > meetings of some Islamic Students Association (not sure of the name) > because > they used to drink. Incidentally, almost all of the Muslim students were > part of this so called association except for maybe a handful. > (Incidentally, Kerala has 15% reservation for Muslims in professional > colleges and there were about a thousand students in my college apart from > those who get in through the general quota, just to give you an idea of the > numbers). > > So, you might be one of those who rejected that identity (like my friends), > and so you do have the right to be offended and which is why I apologized. > > Incidentally, somebody I met at a random party and became friends with a > few > weeks ago, admitted last weekend that he had contributed money to the LTTE. > This guy went to BITS and an IIM. So if a good education does not take this > out of you, why do you expect that it will remove all stereotypes (assuming > you weren't baiting me with that oft-used provocation too)? > > Kiran > -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
I was born to Hindu parents, am agnostic, but I follow the ancient Hindu tradition of enjoying beef. But not as much as I enjoy chicken though. I find it somewhat immoral to be vegetarian - there must be something unnatural and wrong if you skip a few obviously pre-ordained steps on the food chain. I have also long held that the lack of success of the Indian cricket team till 5 years ago was the presence of curd-rice-eating apologetic medium pacers like Javagal Srinath and Srinivas Prasad. What hope did we ever have then? Deeply immoral, man. With Zak, Munaf, Ishan and Praveen, we have something going now, I think. Morality has been restored somewhat. Burp. :-) On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > The other issue is also that I am made to feel apologetic about choosing to > eat meat. That makes me feel worse! > >
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > And that will also influence your judgements. Clap, clap, clap. Applause, > applause, applause. Fine..I'll take the bait... And how else do you propose I avoid being harassed by the police when it turns out that the person I rented out the flat to is a suspected terrorist. I didn't say I would pass judgment that he/she is a terrorist just on the basis of their Muslim name, just that I would be more wary. Since you've culled out other parts of my post - I'll restate. I didn't say I wouldn't rent to a Muslim, just not to somebody I didn't know at all or wasn't referred to me by somebody I know. Contrary to how you make it sound, I *don't* avoid Muslims like the plague. But neither do I want to be the open-minded stereotype-rejecting progressive-thinking idiot. What you might not have guessed from my name is that I am from Kerala. The place where my family stay in Cochin is a predominantly Muslim area, its called Kakkanad which means land of Muslims. We have Muslim neighbors. Their son, after attending a madrassa for a few months changed into a different person and started beating up his parents and sisters (they themselves admit that this was the reason, or at least it is after this that he changed). I wonder what happened to the other kids who attended the same madrassa. I remember a whole bunch of people being beaten black and blue in Palghat (where I did my engineering) because they went for an ill-advised "victory march" through a Muslim neighbourhood after India beat Pakistan in cricket! :). In my college, a few of my Muslim friends were no longer invited to the meetings of some Islamic Students Association (not sure of the name) because they used to drink. Incidentally, almost all of the Muslim students were part of this so called association except for maybe a handful. (Incidentally, Kerala has 15% reservation for Muslims in professional colleges and there were about a thousand students in my college apart from those who get in through the general quota, just to give you an idea of the numbers). So, you might be one of those who rejected that identity (like my friends), and so you do have the right to be offended and which is why I apologized. Incidentally, somebody I met at a random party and became friends with a few weeks ago, admitted last weekend that he had contributed money to the LTTE. This guy went to BITS and an IIM. So if a good education does not take this out of you, why do you expect that it will remove all stereotypes (assuming you weren't baiting me with that oft-used provocation too)? Kiran
Re: [silk] Need some help
But no one's apologizing to me for the fact that steak is so delicious, damn it! And don't even get me started on the wonder that is bacon... And no one's apologizing to the person that may worship phallic objects who is horrified at the treatment of carrots and cucumbers... (although I suppose that now impugns sausage)... But possibly as a result of lesser demand, beef is cheaper here (by quite a bit) than it is in the US. So the economist in me doesn't want to talk anyone out of vegitarianism. (I am trying to infuse some levity here, so please take it in that spirit. I do acknowledge the ethical and ecological virtues of veg.) On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > The other issue is also that I am made to feel apologetic about choosing to > eat meat. That makes me feel worse!
Re: [silk] Need some help
In Free Societies I think we believe there's large social benefit to fairness and freedom. This includes access to enfranchisement in that society. And a place to live, a place to work, etc. are elements of that. Hence, in the US, there are Civil Rights laws that make certain discrimination against people on the basis of race, religion, and gender illegal -- all added in the 20th century after struggles. I agree with personal choice; for example, I disagree with forcing a woman to wear a headscarf and I disagree with attempts to force a woman not to be able to wear a headscarf -- like some French schools tried to do. No one forces them to rent out their places. But if they want to engage in what is essentially commerce, for the greater societal welfare it needs to be governed by fair rules as much as stock transactions should bar insider information. For example, there is a list of information that a realtor cannot provide a buyer in the US as its considered discriminatory: http://law.freeadvice.com/government_law/civil_rights_law_ada/housing_protections.htm That said, there's plenty hidden discrimination -- people who don't want to rent to college kids fearing destructive parties. Condo communities that don't allow children because it annoys the old folks. Fat people are often discriminated against in the workplace. Sometimes it can be hard to prove. As much as a huge liability the litigious nature of the US is, sometimes it does end up scaring people into doing the ethical thing, simply to avoid punishment. But on a personal note, a vegetarian Hindu in India (mind you, that's what my Indian side of the family has been for generations), who walks around thinking themselves morally superior to a Swede who eats meat just makes me laugh. In Sweden there is no such idea as a person being a "dalit." There are no slums. Everyone can go to school. It is illegal to discriminate against people based on color (they even have dark skinned women on TV, which I almost never see here in India!), religion, race, gender, etc. There is no eve-teasing, no police torture (and the police enforce the law), no dowrys, no honor killing, very little violence and crime, you can cross the street without cars trying to run you down, etc. When India starts taking care of the human beings here, I'll stop eating meat. Priorities, please! Two final points -- the US has plenty of poverty, corruption, and violence (not to mention the reported torture in Gitmo)-- which many Americans find shameful (and I also laugh at Americans who think we're the best because we've got claim to so many superlatives, rather than contemplating rating us on the life of the average person or plight of those least fortunate). And second, there are *many* progressive and humanist Indians I've met who want to change things for the better here (and things have been getting better here in so many ways) -- the population is diverse here and I'm only talking about that segment that acts in these intolerant ways. The conflict between the "intolerati" (some of whom wouldn't want to rent to an Indian because they don't want that "damned curry smell" in their rental unit -- fortunately that's illegal for them to do -- and some of whom would want all Muslims in the US rounded up and put in camps, which again, is completely unconstitutional and would never be done -- especially after the shame of the Japanese internment during WWII) and the rest of Americans is one of the reasons for the major regime change in 2008. Because, to quote Michael Caine's character from the Austin Powers movie, "There are two things I can't stand: people who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch!" :-) On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > It is problematic when vegetarianism is imposed on my by force, in both > subtle and not-so-subtle ways. That I am viewed as lowly, meat eating > person, simply because some cultures believe that it is more moral and > superior to eat vegetarian food. There are personal choices, social > choices, > ecological choices for eating vegetables over meat. That is fine as long as > it is not imposed on me. There is a fundamental issue of freedom at stake > here.
Re: [silk] Need some help
The other issue is also that I am made to feel apologetic about choosing to eat meat. That makes me feel worse! On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > It is problematic when vegetarianism is imposed on my by force, in both > subtle and not-so-subtle ways. That I am viewed as lowly, meat eating > person, simply because some cultures believe that it is more moral and > superior to eat vegetarian food. There are personal choices, social choices, > ecological choices for eating vegetables over meat. That is fine as long as > it is not imposed on me. There is a fundamental issue of freedom at stake > here. > > > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Pranesh Prakash > wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 15:06, Zainab Bawa >> wrote: >> > What you eat is both a cultural preference and a personal one. >> > Vegetarianism, the way it is spoken of in various discourses and >> practices, >> > is laden with overtones of morality. I find this problematic. >> >> What is a healthy choice for one might be an ecological choice for >> another, and an ethical or moral choice for yet another. All these >> individual/social choices are reflected in the discourses around >> vegetarianism. (It's not as though ecological horrors are not >> highlighted to make room for the morality play that many construct out >> of vegetarianism.) Why is that problematic? >> >> > > > -- > Zainab Bawa > Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher > > Between Places ... > http://zainab.freecrow.org > -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > And it is interesting to note that an educated person like yourself would > not take the trouble to interact and move beyond the stereotypes. You would > just say, "ah, if the sub-community you are a part of is causing trouble, > you will face social repression." Now that definitely makes me want to keep > you out of my property. Thank you for saying what I was thinking much better than I would have. -- b
Re: [silk] Need some help
It is problematic when vegetarianism is imposed on my by force, in both subtle and not-so-subtle ways. That I am viewed as lowly, meat eating person, simply because some cultures believe that it is more moral and superior to eat vegetarian food. There are personal choices, social choices, ecological choices for eating vegetables over meat. That is fine as long as it is not imposed on me. There is a fundamental issue of freedom at stake here. On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 3:15 PM, Pranesh Prakash wrote: > On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 15:06, Zainab Bawa wrote: > > What you eat is both a cultural preference and a personal one. > > Vegetarianism, the way it is spoken of in various discourses and > practices, > > is laden with overtones of morality. I find this problematic. > > What is a healthy choice for one might be an ecological choice for > another, and an ethical or moral choice for yet another. All these > individual/social choices are reflected in the discourses around > vegetarianism. (It's not as though ecological horrors are not > highlighted to make room for the morality play that many construct out > of vegetarianism.) Why is that problematic? > > -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > > My post was only meant as an example of how the actions of a fringe group > of > a community will nevertheless influence the opinions of others about that > community at large. > And that will also influence your judgements. Clap, clap, clap. Applause, applause, applause. -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of batchmates from MBA and > we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I was a meat eater > (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly had people over > drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch noise levels. > With a name like Kiran Karthikeyan, you are less likely to be asked whether you are meat eating or not. When I would phone prospective landlords for renting apartments in Jayanagar, I'd say I was "Mrs. Chandrakiran" instead of taking my name and being slammed on the phone for being a meat eater (which I am largely not). > I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you are a part of is > causing trouble, you will face social repression. That is an extremely convenient way of putting things. Just because a government and a media machinery say that attacks are caused by Muslims makes me a prospective trouble maker too. There is no effort made to investigate why after every attack, it is immediately said that some --- toiba or --- jamaati group has admitted to the attacks. Could these not be framing tactics? And it is interesting to note that an educated person like yourself would not take the trouble to interact and move beyond the stereotypes. You would just say, "ah, if the sub-community you are a part of is causing trouble, you will face social repression." Now that definitely makes me want to keep you out of my property. And as a member of that > community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility of reforming > your sub-community. That stands just as much true for you too. "Your" community has been wreaking as much trouble as "my" community has been. The question is, are hindus really your community as much as Muslims are my community? Is there a universal Hindu or a universal Muslim? > Its either that or you change your name and forgo that > particular identity. You get even better with every sentence. > Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other > communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing > the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I > know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other major terrorist > groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe groups like > Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary of those in > khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick. This is the fundamental problem with today's times. And then we ask why is there violence in society? I have never felt like a Muslim in my life before as much as I am made to feel now. My father's factory was burnt down in the riots of 1993 in Bombay by a mob of rowdies, and even then, we never felt discriminated. But in today's times, it seems that the base identity has become so critical in understanding and experiencing the world, that I even feel frightened to be part of this set-up. Yet, live I must! -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 15:06, Zainab Bawa wrote: > What you eat is both a cultural preference and a personal one. > Vegetarianism, the way it is spoken of in various discourses and practices, > is laden with overtones of morality. I find this problematic. What is a healthy choice for one might be an ecological choice for another, and an ethical or moral choice for yet another. All these individual/social choices are reflected in the discourses around vegetarianism. (It's not as though ecological horrors are not highlighted to make room for the morality play that many construct out of vegetarianism.) Why is that problematic?
Re: [silk] Need some help
I had a Muslim friend who was a film journalist. He absolutely detested meat and was an ardent vegetarian - no love for Biryani - would hide even on days of Eid and festivals, not wanting to eat meat. I eat vegetarian food because of health reasons and because of the fact that the meat manufactured poultry industry is as good as eating hash. This is not to say that vegetables are not laden with pesticides and GM seeds. What you eat is both a cultural preference and a personal one. Vegetarianism, the way it is spoken of in various discourses and practices, is laden with overtones of morality. I find this problematic. On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:05 AM, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian > wrote: > > Forget single. Get the gujjus out of mumbai and you'd probably have a > better Mumbai than most (no wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat > - they have a CM they deserve) > > Assuming that you are not trolling, how is this statement of branding > the whole community any different than branding the Muslim community > as fomentors of terrorism. The Gujarathi community (like the Parsee > community) has been an integral part of Mumbai for several years. > Stripping them out of Mumbai would make it lose it's character (what > no dandiya ?). Mumbai would not be the same without the > entrepreneurial spirit of the Gujarathi. > > > Mahatma Gandhi is a long forgotten concept there. Greed, hypocrisy, crude > hatred etc etc - the entire state of Gujarat is a danger to modern India, as > its people's minds have been indoctrinated to religious hatred. > > The same can be said of the Congress as well. MG is only remembered > when naming roads in any city or putting up statues. > > -- Vinayak > (Who loves Gujarathi food - undhiyu, thepla etc and realizes his > friends are muslim only due to awesome meat-based cuisine they have - > Find me one person who doesn't love biryani :) > > -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
Not really so. In Bangalore, a Belgian friend of mine was told that she would be allowed to take up the place only if she promised to stay vegetarian. Another American friend in Mumbai, married and with kids, was refused housing on grounds of vegetarianism. On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:04 AM, . wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Thaths wrote: > > I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and > > women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher. > > The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were > > several people who refused to rent to me with a curt "No bachelors, we > > have a teenage daughter" > > The weird thing is they are willing to rent to single (fe)males who > are foreigners. Maybe its the green bucks or the "fair skin is > better" attitude which reminds me of those matrimonial ads seeking > fair brides. > -- > . > > -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Venky TV wrote: > Organized discrimination (not including state-sponsored ones) is no > different from personal discrimination. Sure, it is even more unfair > and extremely ugly. On a slightly different tangent What I find very interesting is the differentiation in discrimination of different kinds in the media. For example, I see the reservation policies followed by the current congress government/short-lived VP Singh (though BJP / third front aren't any better - they are probably worse) as damaging to society as much as the Godhra/Kandamal/Anti-sikh/Anti-UP riots in Gujarat/Orissa/Delhi/Mumbai. The only difference seems that in one case the effect of discrimination are more longer term and less visible (gory sequences of beating up people / burning up shops makes more compelling viewing than students missing better opportunities for better education). Also one is mostly class-based / caste based rather than religion-based. -- Vinayak
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:35 PM, sur...@hserus.net wrote: > Your right stops right where it conflicts with another person's rights. True. > Organized policies of discrimination such as vegetarian only buildings are an > example. Don't buy that. You have no rights to another man's property. If the owner allows you to rent his property, it is quite definitely a privilege and not a right. And the fact that a redneck in Birmingham would be arrested for refusing to rent his flat to a black man does not automatically make it right either. Would he be arrested for running a no-pets-allowed property? No? Now, that is what I would term illegal discrimination. It is also not a violation of your rights if you are quoted an exorbitant price for the same property which another person gets quoted a much lesser price for unless it is also a violation for a landlord to lower his rent because he happens to like the tenant. You might as well make it illegal to like one person more than another. That is, after all, discrimination too. Organized discrimination (not including state-sponsored ones) is no different from personal discrimination. Sure, it is even more unfair and extremely ugly. But it is not a rights violation any more than personal discrimination is as long as it applies to private property. Venky (the Second). -- One hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong.
Re: [silk] Need some help
It is almost like gujarat is, for muslims, the equivalent of the deep south for negroes back in the 60s. Ask a goan catholic friend of mine, who tried to rent there and was told 'they dont rent to muslims'. Went through a different broker to the same landlord but giving him his 'old' hindu name mohan prabhu (lots of goan rcs were saraswat brahmins back in portuguese times) and he got just that house In other words, no, not unfair -- srs/nokia e71 -original message- Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help From: "." Date: 21-04-2009 08:59 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:54 AM, sur...@hserus.net wrote: > Owners right? If today, in birmingham AL, some redneck refused to rent a > flat because the prospective tenant is a 'nigger', he'd be arrested If the redneck is bent on discriminating on the basis of skin color he could circumvent a future arrest with a tactical reason to not rent. People may not openly discriminate because of fear of being sued but that does nothing to change their internal real selves, which is what needs to change even though that is slow change, harder to achieve and probably impossible and crazy to expect 6 billion "perfect" people. Whether discrimination is based on religion, skin colour, one's singular status, gender, nationality, or any other criteria, its still discrimination. Degrees and hurt levels do vary but there is nothing nice about being on the receiving end. Its equally unfair to label an entire Gujarati community as evil for the actions of a few when language is still the link between a Gujarati Hindu and a Gujarati Bohra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohra -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:54 AM, sur...@hserus.net wrote: > Owners right? If today, in birmingham AL, some redneck refused to rent a > flat because the prospective tenant is a 'nigger', he'd be arrested If the redneck is bent on discriminating on the basis of skin color he could circumvent a future arrest with a tactical reason to not rent. People may not openly discriminate because of fear of being sued but that does nothing to change their internal real selves, which is what needs to change even though that is slow change, harder to achieve and probably impossible and crazy to expect 6 billion "perfect" people. Whether discrimination is based on religion, skin colour, one's singular status, gender, nationality, or any other criteria, its still discrimination. Degrees and hurt levels do vary but there is nothing nice about being on the receiving end. Its equally unfair to label an entire Gujarati community as evil for the actions of a few when language is still the link between a Gujarati Hindu and a Gujarati Bohra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohra -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Mon, 20/4/09, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote: > From: Kiran K Karthikeyan > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 2:00 PM > > > > I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of > batchmates from MBA and > > we never had a problem find a place to stay even > though I was a meat eater > > (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and > regularly had people over > > drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to > watch noise levels. > > > > I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis > (mostly by Marathis), > > but I never experienced any discrimination due to my > beef eating and > > bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is > almost exclusively to > > keep out Muslims. > > > > I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community > you are a part of is > > causing trouble, you will face social repression. And > as a member of that > > community, you cannot just shy away from the > responsibility of reforming > > your sub-community. Its either that or you change your > name and forgo that > > particular identity. This could be one of the reasons > my family largely > > excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified > with those responsible > > for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in > Kerala (though they will > > never admit to it). > > > > Even I would be wary of lending my house out to > Muslims (or any other > > communty which is identified as causing terrorism or > generally disturbing > > the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred > to me from somebody I > > know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all > other major terrorist > > groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge > (fringe groups like > > Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be > vary of those in > > khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick. > > > > Kiran > > > I have had it pointed out to be offlist that my post was > offensive, and > though it was not meant to be, I realize now that it is. > > However, I don't think its fair to bash the entire Gujarati > community. Of COURSE it isn't. It was never meant to be a fair, objective comment; instead, it was intended for light relief, and an obviously over-the-top statement on the lines of "I hate Saurav Ganguly". I would be very deeply pained indeed if anybody took it seriously. The effective desiccation of the civil discourse in Gujarat, and the increasing desperation to catch up with the international consuming classes that seems to be a trend are not sufficient reason to call ALL Gujaratis bigots, and I do not intend it to be taken as such a call. > And > yes, it isn't fair to bash the entire Muslim community > either.It is a tough > existence for progressive Muslims who are already alienated > by other > communities, to voice their opinions and be alienated by > their own community > as well. > > My post was only meant as an example of how the actions of > a fringe group of > a community will nevertheless influence the opinions of > others about that > community at large. > > Apologies. > > Kiran > Now surf faster and smarter ! Check out the new Firefox 3 - Yahoo! Edition http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/firefox/
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:18 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan : > Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other > communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing > the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I > know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other major terrorist > groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe groups like > Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary of those in > khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick. > How often have I heard this fear psychosis "I am afraid to rent out to 'x' group because of 'y' ..." Where i live many Indian landlord find various ways to keep out non-indian tenants -- especially africans -- usually by quoting an exorbitant rent ...or using the vegetarian excuse. As a result certain housing estates end up being completely Indian -- which in turn feeds perceptions that Indians are racist and live in ghettos. This racial profiling sometimes results in lower rents in some of these areas as the tenants competing for houses are fewer. Some of these same people complain about racism when they look for houses in european countries. There is also a more strange tenant -> landlord racial profiling where many Indian tenants prefer Indian / European landlords (some real estate agents will ask you if you prefer a landlord of particular racial origins) and will not take houses with african landlords as they fear the neighbors might be all african.
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > How do you propose to end pragmatism? :) By removing the need for it in this context, i.e., by removing the fear. :) -- Sumant Srivathsan http://sumants.blogspot.com
Re: [silk] Need some help
> It's the dishonesty of the narrow-minded that rankles, rather than the > (possibly) pragmatic discrimination of the fearful. That said, I'd > definitely prefer the absence of either group. > How do you propose to end pragmatism? :) Kiran
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote: [...] > > Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other > communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing > the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I > know well. Back in the 80s when Tamil Nadu was home base to the LTTE, you would have been wise to never rent out your home to anyone who spoke Tamil with a funny accent. And yes, all of them had letters of recommendation from DMK politicians. I have nothing against anyone, this is just self protection. Cheeni
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > I have had it pointed out to be offlist that my post was offensive, > and though it was not meant to be, I realize now that it is. Undoubtedly so, but you know, I'd much rather have people admit to these sentiments than to pretend to be inclusive while being closet bigots. This is not to say you are an outed bigot, but I'll wager that the sentiments you've aired regarding the connection between Islam and terrorism are not uncommon amongst most non-Muslim communities. It's the dishonesty of the narrow-minded that rankles, rather than the (possibly) pragmatic discrimination of the fearful. That said, I'd definitely prefer the absence of either group. -- Sumant Srivathsan http://sumants.blogspot.com
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of batchmates from MBA and > we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I was a meat eater > (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly had people over > drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch noise levels. > > I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis (mostly by Marathis), > but I never experienced any discrimination due to my beef eating and > bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is almost exclusively to > keep out Muslims. > > I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you are a part of is > causing trouble, you will face social repression. And as a member of that > community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility of reforming > your sub-community. Its either that or you change your name and forgo that > particular identity. This could be one of the reasons my family largely > excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified with those responsible > for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in Kerala (though they will > never admit to it). > > Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other > communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing > the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I > know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other major terrorist > groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe groups like > Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary of those in > khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick. > > Kiran I have had it pointed out to be offlist that my post was offensive, and though it was not meant to be, I realize now that it is. However, I don't think its fair to bash the entire Gujarati community. And yes, it isn't fair to bash the entire Muslim community either.It is a tough existence for progressive Muslims who are already alienated by other communities, to voice their opinions and be alienated by their own community as well. My post was only meant as an example of how the actions of a fringe group of a community will nevertheless influence the opinions of others about that community at large. Apologies. Kiran
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Mon, 20/4/09, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote: > From: Kiran K Karthikeyan > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 12:48 PM > > > > How I agree! > > > > It's a totally toxic state now, and the Gujaratis in > Mumbai seem to be > > mirroring the native Gujarati. > > > > Isn't it ironic that after campaigning against all not > from Maharashtra, > > the Thackerays should now find so much in common with > the Gujarati? > > Presumably the Gujarati vote in Mumbai goes to the > BJP, not to the Shiv > > Sena. > > > > What happened to the Gujarat and the Gujarati that we > knew forty years, > > even twenty years ago? This shows what can happen > under 'soft' Hindutva, and > > under the 'good' Taliban. > > > > I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of > batchmates from MBA and > we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I > was a meat eater > (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly > had people over > drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch > noise levels. > > I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis (mostly > by Marathis), > but I never experienced any discrimination due to my beef > eating and > bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is > almost exclusively to > keep out Muslims. > > I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you > are a part of is > causing trouble, you will face social repression. And as a > member of that > community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility > of reforming > your sub-community. Its either that or you change your name > and forgo that > particular identity. This could be one of the reasons my > family largely > excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified with > those responsible > for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in Kerala > (though they will > never admit to it). > > Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or > any other > communty which is identified as causing terrorism or > generally disturbing > the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me > from somebody I > know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other > major terrorist > groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe > groups like > Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary > of those in > khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick. > > Kiran I daresay that your, what is it, variability (?), would not extend to the extreme lengths of denying them accommodation (written with the full awareness that the parties in questions are supposedly wearing shorts). Egregious excesses chapter: and I thought only we thick-tongued Bongs had problems with w and v. Explore your hobbies and interests. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > How I agree! > > It's a totally toxic state now, and the Gujaratis in Mumbai seem to be > mirroring the native Gujarati. > > Isn't it ironic that after campaigning against all not from Maharashtra, > the Thackerays should now find so much in common with the Gujarati? > Presumably the Gujarati vote in Mumbai goes to the BJP, not to the Shiv > Sena. > > What happened to the Gujarat and the Gujarati that we knew forty years, > even twenty years ago? This shows what can happen under 'soft' Hindutva, and > under the 'good' Taliban. > I stayed for a year in Mumbai, and so did a lot of batchmates from MBA and we never had a problem find a place to stay even though I was a meat eater (even beef, though we never cooked), smoker, and regularly had people over drinking alcohol late into the night though we had to watch noise levels. I've heard a lot of things said about the Gujaratis (mostly by Marathis), but I never experienced any discrimination due to my beef eating and bacchanalian lifestyle. So yes, the anti-meat rule is almost exclusively to keep out Muslims. I think it is a fact of life that if the sub-community you are a part of is causing trouble, you will face social repression. And as a member of that community, you cannot just shy away from the responsibility of reforming your sub-community. Its either that or you change your name and forgo that particular identity. This could be one of the reasons my family largely excluded the Menon surname as not to be identified with those responsible for quite a bit of caste based discrimination in Kerala (though they will never admit to it). Even I would be wary of lending my house out to Muslims (or any other communty which is identified as causing terrorism or generally disturbing the peace), unless I knew them or they were referred to me from somebody I know well. Face it, apart from the LTTE, IRA, all other major terrorist groups I know are Islamic in origin to my knowledge (fringe groups like Maoists, ULFA etc. being ignored). And I would also be vary of those in khaki shorts and carry around a long wooden stick. Kiran
Re: [silk] Need some help
Your right stops right where it conflicts with another person's rights. Organized policies of discrimination such as vegetarian only buildings are an example. -- srs/nokia e71 -original message- Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help From: "Pranesh Prakash" Date: 20-04-2009 10:20 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:30, . wrote: > As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right > to decide who he/she rents to. If the 'no meat' policy should not be > enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say "eat meat" to be > considered one of us. Forget about owners' rights. That's secondary. I think it first needs to be established that an individual has the right to be repulsed by dead animals. I'm not sure people are in agreement on that. (On that note, that that "right to be repulsed" being used as a proxy is repulsive goes without saying. Or goes with being said in the last sentence.)
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Mon, 20/4/09, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > From: Suresh Ramasubramanian > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Monday, 20 April, 2009, 8:08 AM > Forget single. Get the gujjus out of > mumbai and you'd probably have a better Mumbai than most (no > wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat - they have > a CM they deserve) > > Mahatma Gandhi is a long forgotten concept there. Greed, > hypocrisy, crude hatred etc etc - the entire state of > Gujarat is a danger to modern India, as its people's minds > have been indoctrinated to religious hatred. > > srs How I agree! It's a totally toxic state now, and the Gujaratis in Mumbai seem to be mirroring the native Gujarati. Isn't it ironic that after campaigning against all not from Maharashtra, the Thackerays should now find so much in common with the Gujarati? Presumably the Gujarati vote in Mumbai goes to the BJP, not to the Shiv Sena. What happened to the Gujarat and the Gujarati that we knew forty years, even twenty years ago? This shows what can happen under 'soft' Hindutva, and under the 'good' Taliban. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 09:30, . wrote: > As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right > to decide who he/she rents to. If the 'no meat' policy should not be > enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say "eat meat" to be > considered one of us. Forget about owners' rights. That's secondary. I think it first needs to be established that an individual has the right to be repulsed by dead animals. I'm not sure people are in agreement on that. (On that note, that that "right to be repulsed" being used as a proxy is repulsive goes without saying. Or goes with being said in the last sentence.)
Re: [silk] Need some help
Owners right? If today, in birmingham AL, some redneck refused to rent a flat because the prospective tenant is a 'nigger', he'd be arrested -- srs/nokia e71 -original message- Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help From: "." Date: 20-04-2009 09:30 On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > Not trolling as such. Merely taking one exaggerated attitude and combating > it with another. That article is accurate enough about gujjus and 'veg > only buildings'. And any state with bjp in power for long enough has them > survive only because bigotry is actively encouraged and indoctrinated. Arent all politicians being their dis-honest hypocritical selves, not to forget that some common folks are equally (if not more) politically diplomatic and equally repulsive for the same reasons that politicians are disliked. > That's a fact that has to be faced. Arresting some of those 'building > society presidents' if they try to enforce a 'no meat' type policy might > prove interesting. As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right to decide who he/she rents to. If the 'no meat' policy should not be enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say "eat meat" to be considered one of us. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Vinayak Hegde wrote: > Even cavemen preferred blondes[1] *sigh* some things will never change *sigh* -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > Not trolling as such. Merely taking one exaggerated attitude and combating > it with another. That article is accurate enough about gujjus and 'veg > only buildings'. And any state with bjp in power for long enough has them > survive only because bigotry is actively encouraged and indoctrinated. Arent all politicians being their dis-honest hypocritical selves, not to forget that some common folks are equally (if not more) politically diplomatic and equally repulsive for the same reasons that politicians are disliked. > That's a fact that has to be faced. Arresting some of those 'building > society presidents' if they try to enforce a 'no meat' type policy might > prove interesting. As someone had earlier mentioned in this thread, its an owners right to decide who he/she rents to. If the 'no meat' policy should not be enforced its equally unfair and discriminatory to say "eat meat" to be considered one of us. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:04 AM, . wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Thaths wrote: >> I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and >> women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher. >> The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were >> several people who refused to rent to me with a curt "No bachelors, we >> have a teenage daughter" > > The weird thing is they are willing to rent to single (fe)males who > are foreigners. Maybe its the green bucks or the "fair skin is > better" attitude which reminds me of those matrimonial ads seeking > fair brides. Even cavemen preferred blondes[1] -- Vinayak 1. http://www.dailycardinal.com/article/19853
Re: [silk] Need some help
Not trolling as such. Merely taking one exaggerated attitude and combating it with another. That article is accurate enough about gujjus and 'veg only buildings'. And any state with bjp in power for long enough has them survive only because bigotry is actively encouraged and indoctrinated. That's a fact that has to be faced. Arresting some of those 'building society presidents' if they try to enforce a 'no meat' type policy might prove interesting. Vinayak Hegde [20/04/09 09:05 +0530]: Assuming that you are not trolling, how is this statement of branding the whole community any different than branding the Muslim community as fomentors of terrorism. The Gujarathi community (like the Parsee community) has been an integral part of Mumbai for several years. Stripping them out of Mumbai would make it lose it's character (what no dandiya ?). Mumbai would not be the same without the entrepreneurial spirit of the Gujarathi. -- Vinayak (Who loves Gujarathi food - undhiyu, thepla etc and realizes his friends are muslim only due to awesome meat-based cuisine they have - Find me one person who doesn't love biryani :)
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote: > Forget single. Get the gujjus out of mumbai and you'd probably have a better > Mumbai than most (no wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat - they > have a CM they deserve) Assuming that you are not trolling, how is this statement of branding the whole community any different than branding the Muslim community as fomentors of terrorism. The Gujarathi community (like the Parsee community) has been an integral part of Mumbai for several years. Stripping them out of Mumbai would make it lose it's character (what no dandiya ?). Mumbai would not be the same without the entrepreneurial spirit of the Gujarathi. > Mahatma Gandhi is a long forgotten concept there. Greed, hypocrisy, crude > hatred etc etc - the entire state of Gujarat is a danger to modern India, as > its people's minds have been indoctrinated to religious hatred. The same can be said of the Congress as well. MG is only remembered when naming roads in any city or putting up statues. -- Vinayak (Who loves Gujarathi food - undhiyu, thepla etc and realizes his friends are muslim only due to awesome meat-based cuisine they have - Find me one person who doesn't love biryani :)
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Thaths wrote: > I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and > women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher. > The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were > several people who refused to rent to me with a curt "No bachelors, we > have a teenage daughter" The weird thing is they are willing to rent to single (fe)males who are foreigners. Maybe its the green bucks or the "fair skin is better" attitude which reminds me of those matrimonial ads seeking fair brides. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
Forget single. Get the gujjus out of mumbai and you'd probably have a better Mumbai than most (no wonder a creep like Modi is in power in Gujarat - they have a CM they deserve) Mahatma Gandhi is a long forgotten concept there. Greed, hypocrisy, crude hatred etc etc - the entire state of Gujarat is a danger to modern India, as its people's minds have been indoctrinated to religious hatred. srs > -Original Message- > From: silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net > [mailto:silklist-bounces+suresh=hserus@lists.hserus.net] On Behalf > Of . > Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 7:56 AM > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Thaths wrote: > > MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a > > Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that > > Another aspect is the fear of "single" woman with the most popular > thought being a single women is "dangerous". This fear (or should i > say discrimination) is pretty stronger than people like to admit and > one landlord almost backed off from showing the space to a woman who I > was helping out. He agreed to show the space only after I vouched for > her "character", never mind that had never met her. I kid you not. > > -- > .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:25 PM, . wrote: > On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Thaths wrote: >> MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a >> Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that > Another aspect is the fear of "single" woman with the most popular > thought being a single women is "dangerous". This fear (or should i > say discrimination) is pretty stronger than people like to admit and > one landlord almost backed off from showing the space to a woman who I > was helping out. He agreed to show the space only after I vouched for > her "character", never mind that had never met her. I kid you not. I think this sort of discrimination happens with both single men and women. I agree, though, that a single woman probably has it tougher. The last time I tried looking for an apartment in Bangalore there were several people who refused to rent to me with a curt "No bachelors, we have a teenage daughter" Thaths -- "You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel." -- Homer J. Simpson
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 4:33 AM, Thaths wrote: > MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a > Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that Another aspect is the fear of "single" woman with the most popular thought being a single women is "dangerous". This fear (or should i say discrimination) is pretty stronger than people like to admit and one landlord almost backed off from showing the space to a woman who I was helping out. He agreed to show the space only after I vouched for her "character", never mind that had never met her. I kid you not. -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 11:07 PM, Zainab Bawa wrote: > I was almost compelled to put out a request here because we are finding it a > problem to find apartments in Jayanagar/Lalbagh area.This is owing to the > condition that only vegetarian tenants are required. While we don't cook > non-veg in our home usually, we do have friends over which is when non-veg > is cooked. > In a few cases, I have even been told that Muslims will not be rented out > apartments. Interesting piece in the WaPo today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/18/AR2009041800792_pf.html India's Muslims See Bias in Housing Recent Increase Is Blamed on Islamist Terrorist Attacks in Mumbai Last Fall By Emily Wax Washington Post Foreign Service Sunday, April 19, 2009 MUMBAI -- The sunny apartment had everything Palvisha Aslam, 22, a Bollywood producer, wanted: a spacious bedroom and a kitchen that overlooked a garden in a middle-class neighborhood that was a short commute to Film City, where many of India's Hindi movies are shot. She was about to sign the lease when the real estate broker noticed her surname. He didn't realize that she was Muslim, he said. Then he rejected her. It was just six weeks after the November Mumbai terrorist attacks and Indian Muslims were being viewed with suspicion across the country. He then showed her a grimy one-room tenement in a Muslim-dominated ghetto. She felt sick to her stomach as she watched the residents fight over water at a leaky tap in a dark alley. "That night I cried a lot. I was still an outcast in my own country -- even as a secular Muslim with a well-paid job in Bollywood," said Aslam, who had similar experiences with five other brokers and three months later is still sleeping on friends' sofas. "I'm an Indian. I love my country. Is it a crime now to be a Muslim in Mumbai?" In the months after the brazen three-day Mumbai terrorist attacks, stories like Aslam's are common, even among some of the country's most beloved Bollywood actors, screenwriters and producers in India's most cosmopolitan city. The accusations of discrimination highlight the often simmering religious tensions in the world's biggest democracy, where Muslim celebrities can be feted on the red carpet one minute and locked out of quality housing the next. The phenomenon has become known here as "renting while Muslim." It raises questions that go to the heart of India's identity as a secular democracy that is home to nearly every major religion on the planet. Although India has a Hindu majority, it also has 150 million Muslims, one of the largest Muslim communities in the world. "The new generation wants a better India that isn't bogged down in religious strife," said Junaid Memon, 34, a Muslim Bollywood director who is trying to promote religious harmony through his films and his Facebook site. "We shouldn't be an India that ghettoizes all Muslims to apartments near a mosque. This is a real test for modern India." With national elections across India that began Thursday and last a month, some Muslim activists and Bollywood film directors are raising the issue with political parties and trying to form a voting bloc. "This election, we have to talk about housing discrimination against Muslims," said Zulfi Sayed, a Muslim actor who is outspoken about the issue and is courting Hindus who agree with him. "In a shining India, this shouldn't be still such a common practice." Muslims have long served as an important swing vote in India, since Hindus are increasingly divided among nearly 200 regional parties. Historically, India's Congress party won elections with the help of the Muslim vote by running on a platform of promoting religious diversity. The opposition Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party has, at times, used anti-Muslim sentiment to court votes while pledging to keep Hindu heritage alive. India blames the Pakistan-based Islamist militant group Lashkar-i-Taiba for the November attack in which 10 gunmen left more than 170 people dead, including 40 Indian Muslims. Many Muslims here feared the attacks would unleash cycles of revenge killing of the sort that have recurred throughout India's modern history, from the violence of partition between India and Pakistan in 1947 to the 1992 riots in Mumbai. In the days after November's Mumbai attacks, Muslims from all corners of society united, holding candlelight vigils with a message to protest terrorism and pledge loyalty to India. In the end, there was no communal violence. But across the country, reports of housing discrimination have increased. Afroz Alam Sahil, 21, a student activist at Jamia Millia Islamia College in New Delhi, said that more than a dozen students from states such as Uttar Pradesh and Bihar -- which have large Muslim populations -- have been unable to find housing since the Mumbai attacks. "Some Muslim friends have dropped out of college because they have nowhere to stay," Sahil said. "There is intense suspicion. Som
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM, . wrote: > On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram > wrote: >> While on bisi bele bath - I am convinced that it's the only food known >> to man that looks identical while entering and exiting the digestive >> system. > > ...and to think i spent a whole month learning to cook this properly. Gah !!! I rather like it myself. :-) -- b
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Ramakrishnan Sundaram wrote: > While on bisi bele bath - I am convinced that it's the only food known > to man that looks identical while entering and exiting the digestive > system. ...and to think i spent a whole month learning to cook this properly. Gah !!! -- .
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Gautam John wrote: > > > That was much much later and it wasn't hostel food. It was a canteen > in the training centre that we had to pay for independent of the mess. > It had such a creative name. A canteen. At law school. Named Just > Foods. > > > Many many years ago, the NLS girls hostel used to serve Chinese food (i.e. Noodles and some gravy), which was fairly edible and was one meal that I used to look forward to.
Re: [silk] Need some help
> On Friday 13 Mar 2009 9:17:54 am lukhman_khan wrote: > > I am from a muslim family *and* also love non-veg food. > Gosh! You're a Muslim! Cheee! The word *from* was used. Doesnt necessarily mean I also accept that faith. I am an atheist. Whenever I fill forms I still mention Islam as religion. > And you like non veg? Cheee! yea cheeekan also. Lukhma
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Gautam John wrote: > Blackened is also a common Cajun/Creole method of cooking. It's cajun, but not creole. Creole and cajun are quite distinct one from the other, creole being more french influenced. Blackened redfish... yum. -- Charles
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Venkatesh Hariharan wrote: > In that case, I assume the correct term would be "charred" crow. > trying desperately to switch off weekend, nitpicking mode =) Blackened is also a common Cajun/Creole method of cooking. -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Gautam John wrote: > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Venkatesh Hariharan > wrote: > >> Why does one need to "blacken" crows? > > I assume crow meat isn't black. In that case, I assume the correct term would be "charred" crow. Venky trying desperately to switch off weekend, nitpicking mode
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Venkatesh Hariharan wrote: > Why does one need to "blacken" crows? I assume crow meat isn't black. -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:46 PM, Gautam John wrote: The highlight of the week was something called pepper chicken but it could have been blackened crow for all I know. Why does one need to "blacken" crows? Venky
Re: [silk] Need some help
> Maybe not. Sometimes people will rather make a loss and keep a > certain segment of people out. > For instance, here in Nairobi if you are an > indian you can get quoted a lower rent for housing > in certain parts of the city (where there is > a high concentration of indians) than if you are > an african looking to live there. This certainly defies the logic that says "An indian would like to live near more indians" This fits the logic "Indians love to live in African dominated housing colonies and vice versa" Lukhman.
Re: [silk] Need some help
> > While on bisi bele bath - I am convinced that it's the only food known > to man that looks identical while entering and exiting the digestive > system. > > Ram R-E-S-P-E-C-T!!! You aren't just factually accurate, my friend, but you've also captured my emotions perfectly.
Re: [silk] Need some help
> Speaking of mess food, I spent one unfortunate year at the NLS hostel > The things we did to find moderately edible food > > Nikhil and Badri will have more to add. The Sunday morning breakfasts (toast, butter, jam, eggs) was actually pretty decent, although it was something of an effort to wake up in time for it. The rest..well, I stayed in the hostel all 5 years, but after year 1, I ate there about as frequently as Gautam (who had actually moved by then). I understand there are many more options now, but ten years ago, there just wasn't much in Nagarbhavi - I haven't been back to Bangalore in years but I think I will still be recognized by the guys at the local shop and New Shanti Sagar in Vijaynagar. Badri
Re: [silk] Need some help
--- On Sat, 14/3/09, Gautam John wrote: > From: Gautam John > Subject: Re: [silk] Need some help > To: silklist@lists.hserus.net > Date: Saturday, 14 March, 2009, 12:37 AM > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM, > Bonobashi > wrote: > > > And here we were, visiting privileged relatives > studying there, and deciding that it wasn't any point > inviting them home for a home meal, when they had chefs > dishing out Chinese at hostel - at hostel! - > and you mean they were starving all the while? > > That was much much later and it wasn't hostel food. It was > a canteen > in the training centre that we had to pay for independent > of the mess. > It had such a creative name. A canteen. At law school. > Named Just > Foods. > > -- > Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org DM Level 3. Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
Re: [silk] Need some help
On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Bonobashi wrote: > And here we were, visiting privileged relatives studying there, and deciding > that it wasn't any point inviting them home for a home meal, when they had > chefs dishing out Chinese at hostel - at hostel! - and you mean they > were starving all the while? That was much much later and it wasn't hostel food. It was a canteen in the training centre that we had to pay for independent of the mess. It had such a creative name. A canteen. At law school. Named Just Foods. -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org
