Re: [RCSE] Supra Fuse
I have a super fuse its from a spirit 100 and its been repaired so many times it must be super by now...how much will you offer? On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Jer Marty Limber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm in the market for a Supra fuse. I wonder if Mike Lachowski is still selling them ??? I can be contacted at the e-mail address below. Thanks, jer Jerry Marty Limber Williamsburg, VA [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra Fuse
Sounds Supra heavy with all the repairs :) -Original Message- From: David Webb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:18 PM To: Jer Marty Limber Cc: RCSE Post Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra Fuse I have a super fuse its from a spirit 100 and its been repaired so many times it must be super by now...how much will you offer? On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Jer Marty Limber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm in the market for a Supra fuse. I wonder if Mike Lachowski is still selling them ??? I can be contacted at the e-mail address below. Thanks, jer Jerry Marty Limber Williamsburg, VA [EMAIL PROTECTED] RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Flap Link Insert Changed
I used .03 CF rods to pin the top and bottom skins around the bump together. Seems to work well. Steve Meyer LSF IV Racine, WI [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: / Today was the last day for top actuated flaps. Lots of glue, fiberglass tape and words did not fix the problem so tonight they will be converted to bottom horns and linkage. After two years of landing with the flaps down, the mounts seem to unrepairable. If I had DP's thumbs, I could get the flaps up before they hit the ground./ The Supra has come a long way baby :-) With the help of all of us. Wing bolt mount pod changes, longer bolts, wing sub rib changes, layup changes, and both the aileron link insert and now flap inserts too...and lets not forget that now the ailerons go all the way to the tips...they are lighter now and stiffer too on the current batch of wings coming to Barry's den of storage. A short while back, well maybe a year or so, it was pretty clear that the area where the aileron inserts were mounted and how they were mounted needed to be changed for linkage geometry and durability, you can tell the new version because the hump is a bit taller. Those of you who hit the landing spot too hard like me, find pretty soon a bubble in the skin around the flap inserts on top. And the flaps not moving together and a lot of slop too. You glue it and glue it but in the end like Don the answer is to put carbon horns in the bottom The new wing has a far more durable link insert for both the ailerons and flaps. Mine? I think I have one more gluing left before I switch over to bottom horns :-) Gordy // RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
- Original Message ... I presented my opinions as to what is a benchmark, and specifically stated my qualifications = This thread seems to be confused by the difference between the words benchmark and landmark. Way back at the beginning, the original reference to a benchmark used the word correctly, viz. as a convenient standard for measurement or comparison. Various posters thereafter have gone off in the direction of trying to identify designs that had neat original ideas and significantly impacted later thought. The word for that is landmark. Libor is a benchmark; Marbury v Madison was a landmark. To say a plane floats better or worse or similarly to an Ava is to use an Ava as a benchmark. The speaker may or may not regard the Ava as a landmark design, but it's a convenient benchmark because everybody knows how an Ava flies. What constitutes a landmark is in the eye of the beholder. Roughly speaking, it's a design like the Fletcher or the JW-DS or the Allegro that looked unusual at the time but spawned a generation of similar planes.
Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
Totally agree, thanks for sharing. My bench marks are: DLG Photon II Electric Moldie: Mini Graphite Big Laminated Foam: FVK Signal Landmark: FVK Bandit On Dec 1, 2007 10:58 AM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message ... I presented my opinions as to what is a benchmark, and specifically stated my qualifications = This thread seems to be confused by the difference between the words benchmark and landmark. Way back at the beginning, the original reference to a benchmark used the word correctly, viz. as a convenient standard for measurement or comparison. Various posters thereafter have gone off in the direction of trying to identify designs that had neat original ideas and significantly impacted later thought. The word for that is landmark. Libor is a benchmark; Marbury v Madison was a landmark. To say a plane floats better or worse or similarly to an Ava is to use an Ava as a benchmark. The speaker may or may not regard the Ava as a landmark design, but it's a convenient benchmark because everybody knows how an Ava flies. What constitutes a landmark is in the eye of the beholder. Roughly speaking, it's a design like the Fletcher or the JW-DS or the Allegro that looked unusual at the time but spawned a generation of similar planes.
Re: [RCSE] Supra History
- Original Message ...Mark never built a 130 Aegea wing. The 130 Aegea was a wing design that he did for some CRRC club members who wanted to have a wing with the AG series airfoils for their Mantis sailplanes The design threads behind the Aegea, which was a Mantis derivative, and the Bubble Dancer, which was a larger version of the Allegro, eventually came together in the design of the Supra. For an overview of some of that history, see: http://www.rcsoaringdigest.com/pdfs/RCSD-2003/RCSD-2003-12.pdf For drawings of the very first Allegro, see: http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articles/allegro2m/markdrela_allegro2m.htm For a picture of a NASA project led by Mark Drela that shows the inspiration for some of these models, see: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/Daedalus/Medium/EC87-0014-8.jpg
RE: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
Dr. Drela and Tom Kiesling are Supra-men with the help of Phil Barnes. And TK worked with Barry Kennedy to produce the molded Supra. At least that's what I though. JD From: Jay Hunter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 1:49 PM To: RCSE posting Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs Thanks Phil... I thought the Supra was a refinement of one of Drela's earlier planes. which was the agea right? On Nov 30, 2007 2:25 PM, Phil Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jay Hunter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I thought the supra was a renfinement of the the thermal dancer? Oh, Jay :-( I guess we need to forgive you since you haven't been around soaring very much. The Thermal Dancer came well after the Supra and was meant to be a low cost, two piece wing model based on the Supra airfoils and tail group. Sort of a blending of the NSP bagged wing methods with the Supra airfoils and tail arrangement. Phil RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
Thanks Phil... I thought the Supra was a refinement of one of Drela's earlier planes. which was the agea right? On Nov 30, 2007 2:25 PM, Phil Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jay Hunter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I thought the supra was a renfinement of the the thermal dancer? Oh, Jay :-( I guess we need to forgive you since you haven't been around soaring very much. The Thermal Dancer came well after the Supra and was meant to be a low cost, two piece wing model based on the Supra airfoils and tail group. Sort of a blending of the NSP bagged wing methods with the Supra airfoils and tail arrangement. Phil RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
- Original Message - From: Jay Hunter [EMAIL PROTECTED] I thought the supra was a renfinement of the the thermal dancer? Oh, Jay :-( I guess we need to forgive you since you haven't been around soaring very much. The Thermal Dancer came well after the Supra and was meant to be a low cost, two piece wing model based on the Supra airfoils and tail group. Sort of a blending of the NSP bagged wing methods with the Supra airfoils and tail arrangement. Phil RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
I thought the supra was a renfinement of the the thermal dancer? On Nov 29, 2007 8:41 PM, Mike Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you tell me what model the Supra is a refinement of? Wright flyer? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred, I agree with your opinion. I read the threads and had to take a larger overview to what a benchmark actually means. In my opinion, Benchmark planes, means some plane to which other planes are compared to so that a noticeable advancement in performance, building, transport, and flying can be measured. They should be unique and contribute unique characteristics. With that said, the Onyz, or Sharon, or Supra, in fact nearly 99% of the planes on the market currently are really just refinements to existing designs, and really are not improvements. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
Hi Mike, First of all, I presented my opinions as to what is a benchmark, and specifically stated my qualifications. They can differ from the thoughts of others, and on this exchange everyone had the ability to express their views. This is a philosophical discussion. Are you just trying to give me a rough time for my opinions?? LOLOLOL However, in regard to what my opinions are, I would love to express why I chose the examples that I did, and group together others. Let's take for example a few items. First, most designers attempt to take the best feature of each plane and try to merge it together into an overall better plane. Is this a real improvement per se? Perhaps it is. It is not in my benchmarks. Second, I believe that changing just the airfoil does not necessarily represent a benchmark. Mark Drela has done exceptional work which I admire, as have many other designers like JW, DP, many Europeans, among others. However, does using an airfoil and then modeling a new wing planform constitute a benchmark? My benchmarks were something that produced a significant trend. The planes themselves might not have survived because their features were rapidly incorporated into other models, but they were pioneers. I do not think the Supras or Onyx, or some of the others are just that much different (IMHO). With that said, I look the difference or similarities between the following planes: The Photon and the Ava: Hmmm, the AVA is just a scaled up Photon with a little more wing taper, dihedral, but it is of the same construction. There are others from the Eastern European manufacturers that have similar designs and structural features. The Super Gee I and the Supra: Hmmm, again the Supra is an enlarged Super Gee. It uses the same basic tailgroup, the same and beefier stab mount, light weight construction, specific wing planforms and airfoils. They seem alike, but does size matter when they are used for two separate events? We see designers using features that fit their specific requirements. Obviously, this is quite evident when MacCready built a large Microfilm indoor model because it performed the functions he required. Consider SpaceShip One, the shuttlecock wing feature is not much more than a dethermalizer for freeflight planes used for over 50 years. Thank goodness our modeling experiences go to good uses. But does that take away from the achievements of these great men? No. What I see is that they took what they knew, added their take and came up with a plane that performed the function they required. In our sport, the F3B/F3J planes are taking minor variations and trying to group them together. The variations are not major. The Sharons', Supras, Schpotdorkers, Milleniums, and many other composite ships are designed trying to optimize a specific task. We are eventually going to reach a point of diminishing returns. However, why do new planes come out, if not for their new aerodynamics? They come out routinely, in perhaps 9 month intervals, because of the market. People and pilots always want the latest and greatest, and pay for that. So IMHO, which I believe I can express, I am waiting for that significant improvement to come out. Is the improvement out there? I really hope so. It will become the benchmark. But is the Wright Flyer with wing warping any different than the dynamic wing warping using electrochemical induced composites that are currently being explored? The mechanics are different, but the aerodyamincs is the same. I wonder. Chris Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs From: Mike Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, November 29, 2007 5:41 pm To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Fred Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED], RCSE soaring@airage.com Can you tell me what model the Supra is a refinement of? Wright flyer? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred, I agree with your opinion. I read the threads and had to take a larger overview to what a benchmark actually means. In my opinion, Benchmark planes, means some plane to which other planes are compared to so that a noticeable advancement in performance, building, transport, and flying can be measured. They should be unique and contribute unique characteristics. With that said, the Onyz, or Sharon, or Supra, in fact nearly 99% of the planes on the market currently are really just refinements to existing designs, and really are not improvements. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe
RE: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
Ryan, Correct, The Uplink was Dick's plane. Fiberglass wings, T-Tail, Tip launched. The Upstart was a foamie by Dave Robelyn, I believe, manufactured for Ace, I think. Apologies to Dick. If someone want to see a pictire of the UpLink Click here: http://www.spieltek.com/images/DB-Uplink10.jpg Additionally, my list is not exclusive. There are many more planes that one can say contributed as benchmarks. Obviously we can go on. Thanks. Chris Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs From: rdwoebke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, November 29, 2007 10:53 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: other HLGs, in my opinion, just refinements. 8) The Upstart: The Upstart was the first DLG used in competition. Tip launching was first pioneered by Dick Barker and Harold Locke, in Seattle, and Dick Barker used the launching method to be able to keep up with the overhand throws of Joe Wurts and the rest. When EVERYONE else realized that they could use this method, most effectively by adding a gyro to their current planes, DLG became the only method for launching. Gyros are now gone by good DLG design and airfoiled tailgroups, but overall the UpStart was the benchmark. It did not last long. Hey Chris, I think you meant Uplink, not upstart... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW, these are Me-Too Designs
Can you tell me what model the Supra is a refinement of? Wright flyer? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred, I agree with your opinion. I read the threads and had to take a larger overview to what a benchmark actually means. In my opinion, Benchmark planes, means some plane to which other planes are compared to so that a noticeable advancement in performance, building, transport, and flying can be measured. They should be unique and contribute unique characteristics. With that said, the Onyz, or Sharon, or Supra, in fact nearly 99% of the planes on the market currently are really just refinements to existing designs, and really are not improvements. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra or Onyx JW?? Benchmark? Doesn't take a Soaring Lord to figure it out.
well Gordy just used up 14 paragraph to say nothing he must be on the road. Would have been out flying today but it was snowing. So I did some repair to a couple of ducks. Martin Doney Baldwin, MI (the middle of nowhere) LSF 7429 level IV
Re: [RCSE] Supra Harnesses?
Hi Jim, Although I have an elegant solution, no one has stepped up to try one yet; Try and imagine a 15pin fuselage/center panel connector that is plug-and-play (PnP) that is similar (in form-factor) to the recognized DB-style in use now, but is less than half the size (micro-D). This particular high-reliability connector system is used in aerospace applications where failure is simply not an option. Space-grade lead material (pigtails) are integral to the pin/spring contacts and are back-potted (the electrical leads come as part of the connector system). With 3A current handling (fom -55C to +150C, 24awg/gold contact and very high cyclic-ability), this miniature system is loafing at it's job in our applications. The major benefit is they are a no-brainer to fit into the physical constraints of the pod. However they double the cost of a typical high-performance harness similar to what I normally build for competition purposes. As far as the center panel to tip panel connection, I still employ the exceedingly reliable KK series connector system. Of course, everything is plug-and-play. regards Jim Laurel wrote: Is anyone selling a lightweight wiring harness for the Supra, or am I going to have to solder one up myself? Does Simon L. or Tom H. have one for sale yet? Cheers - Jim Laurel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Simon Van Leeuwen RADIUS SYSTEMS PnP SYSTEMS - The E-Harness of Choice Cogito Ergo Zooom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Choice?
I am ordering the Carbon soon. From what I understand, the Standard might have problems with hard launches in wind, due to strength. I spoke to Barry about the difference between the Carbon and Kevlar, and the carbon seems like the one to get from my standpoint. Give him a call and he will tell you. chip On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 10:32:15 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Well, I plan on getting a new Supra for the 2007 season and was wondering which version I should get? Barry has standard a carbon and kevlar molded versions. Any suggestions? I'm leaning toward the carbon version. Thanks Dennis Hoyle WMSS www.rcsoaring.org -- WOW! Homepage (http://www.wowway.com) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
I learned a long time ago that by coupling flaps to ailerons the model would track better. (And yes, every model) My first experience with this was with a slope racer (Swift 800) with a short tail moment, and undersized V-tail. I had trouble getting it to track properly at different ballasted weights, differing lift conditions and airspeeds. A slope racer needs to track well in all conditions and quickly changing conditions. When I say it would track better, I mean it would initiate roll with less adverse yaw. 30-40% seemed to work best (if the flaps were built to accept this much - if not, as much as I could get without binding). I have translated this to every model I've flown since then, and model set up is much easier. Dr Drela's explanation makes a lot of sense. I love it when the really smart aero guys verify my findings... ;-) I heard someone talking about turning with ailerons. We don't turn with ailerons, we initiate roll with ailerons. We want to do this as effortlessly and cleanly (axially) as possible, and create a minimum of adverse yaw. With the flaps coupled, I can run less total aileron throw for the required roll rate, less differential, and less rudder coupling to accomplish an axial roll into the bank. Thanks Mark D for putting so much time and effort into this soaring thing. And Mike L - I guess I'll switch my F3B models to poly ships... you know... to keep the wing clean and use rudder... ;-) And Mike Smith - insert Daryl giving the raspberries... ;-)~ (Sorry guys, but Mike didn't used to couple the flaps on his Sharons - I always... uh... fixed his program when I borrowed his planes) Have fun guys! D __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
Now I'm really confused, even though I know the 'right' answer. I had a very good flyer sell me on the opposite - just ailerons for turning, keeping the center section of the wing 'clean'. I'm torn here - leverage really favors the outer surface, how much do you really get from the flap help? Lift, B. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
Brent, The wonderful thing about this hobby is that you don't have to believe anyone! Give the options a personal flight test and decide for yourself what you like the best. Aircraft design theory is a wonderful thing but in the end what you are able to demonstrate for yourself needs to be the deciding factor. Don't discount that in the future, as your skills progress, you may find a different answer to the same question. Strange but true. Hope this helps Rick At 09:23 AM 8/21/2006, Douglas, Brent wrote: Now I'm really confused, even though I know the 'right' answer. I had a very good flyer sell me on the opposite - just ailerons for turning, keeping the center section of the wing 'clean'. I'm torn here - leverage really favors the outer surface, how much do you really get from the flap help? Lift, B. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
Brent, Rick is right on with his great post, print it and glue it to the top of your flight box for future reference. Good Thermal Hunting Ray Hayes http://www.skybench.com Home of Wood Crafters - Original Message - From: Rick Eckel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Douglas, Brent [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring Digest soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 8:46 AM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost Brent, The wonderful thing about this hobby is that you don't have to believe anyone! Give the options a personal flight test and decide for yourself what you like the best. Aircraft design theory is a wonderful thing but in the end what you are able to demonstrate for yourself needs to be the deciding factor. Don't discount that in the future, as your skills progress, you may find a different answer to the same question. Strange but true. Hope this helps Rick At 09:23 AM 8/21/2006, Douglas, Brent wrote: Now I'm really confused, even though I know the 'right' answer. I had a very good flyer sell me on the opposite - just ailerons for turning, keeping the center section of the wing 'clean'. I'm torn here - leverage really favors the outer surface, how much do you really get from the flap help? Lift, B. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
Brent - As with so many issues that we all worry about endlessly, this one is pretty minor. Yes, the plane will be very slightly more efficient if you mix the flaps with the ailerons correctly. But, if a guy without his flaps and ailerons mixed puts his plane in better air and closer to the pin he'll beat you every time. The right answer is to set the plane up as best you can late at night when you can't fly anyway, and spend every sparedaylight hour outlearning how to fly and spot lift better in every conceivable situation. Try the different programming and see if you can tell any difference. Mostly you can't, so don't worry about it. As my OFB Jim Thomas says, "Do that pilot sh*t Bubba." happy trails Rob G From: "Douglas, Brent" To: "Soaring Digest" soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now I'm really confused, even though I know the 'right' answer. I had a very good flyer sell me on the opposite - just ailerons for turning, keeping the center section of the wing 'clean'. =20 I'm torn here - leverage really favors the outer surface, how much do you really get from the flap help? Lift, B.=20 Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
If you are worried about keeping the wing clean, put in more dihedral and use rudder only. If you factor in bad designs and bad airfoils, there is definitely no one 'right' answer. Douglas, Brent wrote: Now I'm really confused, even though I know the 'right' answer. I had a very good flyer sell me on the opposite - just ailerons for turning, keeping the center section of the wing 'clean'. I'm torn here - leverage really favors the outer surface, how much do you really get from the flap help? Lift, B. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format . RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
If I couple the flaps and ailerons I like to use them 100%. the Roll rate is increased and to be honest I can't feel the extra drag. This flies in the face of conventional wisdom but its what I like... one big flaperon... JayOn 8/21/06, Michael Lachowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are worried about keeping the wing clean, put in more dihedraland use rudder only.If you factor in bad designs and bad airfoils, there is definitely noone 'right' answer.Douglas, Brent wrote: Now I'm really confused, even though I know the 'right' answer.I had a very good flyer sell me on the opposite - just ailerons for turning, keeping the center section of the wing 'clean'. I'm torn here - leverage really favors the outer surface, how much do you really get from the flap help? Lift, B. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to soaring-request@airage.com.Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format .RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to soaring-request@airage.com.Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?
Stan, I thought that everyone was using coupled A-F now a days. Dr. Drela has made it pretty clear that it lowers drag and you have a lot more authority on less total throw, whether it is a Supra or not. Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?
I run coupled flapsat 60% and rudder at 75%for flight and alluncoupled for landing. -- KenYork County SoaringLighthorse Team YCSSilence is Golden On 8/18/06, Stan Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If so, how much? If not, when/why?ThanksStanRCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to soaring-request@airage.com.Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Who couples flaps to ailerons?: Drela repost
All, I saved this post from Dr. Drela from October 2003; it's long but very good. Since he originally posted it to the exchange, I'm presuming a repost is OK. Barry Andersen From Dr. Drela: Deflected ailerons deform the load distribution away from the ideal near-elliptical shape, and hence increase induced drag. Partially slaving the flaps to the ailerons can alleviate this load distribution deformation, and thus mitigate the ailerons' CDi penalty. The question is what's the optimum amount of ail- flap mixing. The lowest-drag aileron system is wing-warping as used by the Wright Brothers -- the wing is linearly twisted from tip to tip. When such a twisted wing reaches its steady roll rate, the load distribution returns to its optimum level-flight shape, and the drag penalty is zero. With a finite number of hinged control surfaces such a linear twist cannot be achieved. But it can be approximated as close as possible if each surface's deflection is made proportional to its distance from the aircraft's centerline, measured at the surface midpoint. If the four control surfaces have equal span, we then have: surfacemid_span_loc. deflection ---- -- L.aile. -3/4 -100% L.flap-1/4-33% R.flap+1/4+33% R.aile. +3/4 +100% So for this wing the flap motion should be 33% of the aileron motion. Using AVL I've verified that this mixing ratio produces very nearly the smallest induced drag penalty. If the flap span differs from the aileron span, the table above can be adjusted accordingly. Longer flaps will have larger travel and vice versa. BTW, this distance-proportial deflection rule strongly argues against stopping the ailerons short of the tip. The resulting unhinged tip portion should in fact have the largest deflection. The distance-proportial deflection rule can be fudged if there is a tip stall problem in a sustained turn, where some opposite aileron must is held. By increasing flap travel over its optimum amount, the flaps can carry a greater share of the roll power, which reduces the required downward deflection of the inside aileron, and thus delays tip stall. So if your TD glider has insufficient tip stall margin, I suggest increasing the flap mixing and you should see some improvement. The extreme case would be 100% flap mixing, which mimics full-span flaperons. Flaperons give excellent tip stall resistance, as is obvious to anyone who flies a DLG with a good 2-servo wing. A 4-servo TD wing with decent planform should not need to go to this extreme, especially if it has some washout like the Aegea wing. On Aug 18, 2006, at 11:43 PM, Stan Myers wrote: If so, how much? If not, when/why? Thanks Stan RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to soaring- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Servo Question - yes - it's a secret
In a message dated 8/11/06 8:27:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . I have again looked at using the 94761 for ailerons on my # 81 Supra (carbon) and the result is the same. the 94761 is still thicker than the aileron opening by about 2.5 mm. Guess I'll use the wing max again. Comments ? They work perfectly in my 'Ole #42. I put them in 9 months ago, so I cannot remember if any modification was required. I am sure it was slight if at all. I remember the servo tight against the spar. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
RE: [RCSE] Supra Servo Question - yes - it's a secret
I mounted 94761 servos on the ailerons of my Supra up against the spar with the lugs removed and glued them in. There might have been the slightest bulge in the cover, but you cannot see it now. On the flaps I used the same servos with the mounts that Skip Miller sells. Bruce Twining From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 7:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra Servo Question - yes - it's a secret In a message dated 8/11/06 8:27:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . I have again looked at using the 94761 for ailerons on my # 81 Supra (carbon) and the result is the same. the 94761 is still thicker than the aileron opening by about 2.5 mm. Guess I'll use the wing max again. Comments ? They work perfectly in my 'Ole #42. I put them in 9 months ago, so I cannot remember if any modification was required. I am sure it was slight if at all. I remember the servo tight against the spar. Don Richmond San Diego, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra Servo Question - yes
Hey Don and Pat, my #16 Supra (standard construction) would not accept the 94761(12 mm) servos for the ailerons as they are too thick and protude below the outside of the skin at the rear of of the servo opening. I used Volz Wing Max (10 mm) for the ailerons. I have again looked at using the 94761 for ailerons on my # 81 Supra (carbon) and the result is the same. the 94761 is still thicker than the aileron opening by about 2.5 mm. Guess I'll use the wing max again. Comments ? Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/10/06 5:57:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone tell me if the Airtronics 94761 Wing Servos will fit for the Ailerons on a Supra? I have them in mine. They fit nicely Don Richmond San Diego, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com ---BeginMessage--- In a message dated 8/10/06 5:57:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone tell me if the Airtronics 94761 Wing Servos will fit for the Ailerons on a Supra? I have them in mine. They fit nicely Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com ---End Message---
Re: [RCSE] Supra Servo Question - yes
In a message dated 8/10/06 5:57:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can anyone tell me if the Airtronics 94761 Wing Servos will fit for the Ailerons on a Supra? I have them in mine. They fit nicely Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra..is....
Who won? and what were they flying? Wish I was there. Not able to make tomorrow either. : ( Denny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just as super as everyone thought it might be. I have the heaviest Supra in the known world today and got to fly it in Cincy today against Pikes, Icons, Sharons, Evolutions, etc I chose to 'test' airplanes today as my focus. Took the Sharon, Giant and Supra to fly. OVSS allows the use of any amount of planes you want...very cool for tuning and testing. The conditions were huge, huge up and huge down...so if your model couldn't get out of its own way you were dead. I started with the Sharon for a maxx, then the Supra, then the Giant , etc, in continuous rotation...not by airfoil or span or any other consideration. I stayed in the second to top group til the second to last round where I moved up to top group but made a left on a hunch but couldn't stay with the air (sky as too blue and I kept loosing site) so dropped a bunch of time. The last flight was with the Supra, I ran down wind in real smeg, hit a boomer and was wrapping up and down like a nut... I gained to about 500' but was too far away for comfort and decided to come back. I was totally perplexed because I just couldn't get up and out in that thermal inspite of the fact it was huge..kept on stalling out on the come around part of the turn. So I headed back and it was not penetrating I pushed in a bunch of down trim and got here to come backI hit some more bubbles that should have been an easy up and away but the same thing...always stallingand coming back was still ugly. Finally when I got close enough to seeyep...right from the launch I had accidentally pulled my landing flap stick half way down Damn! So only got 9:57 and a 79out of 10 :-) This Supra is sooo nimble and so capable to get out of sink and over to something new, and does it ever indicate! On its first flight we shot gun launched and everyone flew right thru lift, almost right off the pingbut the Supra just popped its tail, littlerally yelling Hey Dummy, TURN!. Gordy heaviest Carbon Supra on the planet PS, there was one other Carbon Supra on the field, and all lifting it to mine feel mine may be a third heavier. Eat your hearts out. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Mine weighs 61.75 oz prior to balance. How does this compare with yours?
#31 is 61 even ready to fly. Maurice - Original Message - From: Stan Myers [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring Digest soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:32 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra ? Mine weighs 61.75 oz prior to balance. How does this compare with yours? And how much weight did you have to put in to balance? Stan RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/340 - Release Date: 5/15/2006 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra ? Mine weighs 61.75 oz prior to balance. How does this compare with yours?
This proves several things. Any or all of the following could apply. First is Gordy's rule of weights: Everyone else's plane weighs less than yours no matter how light yours is. If you build a Supra RTF at 40 ounces, somebody will have a lighter one! Then: Stan is a lousy builder. Next: Maurice is a great builder. Next: Maurice used lighter equipment than Stan. Next: Maurice has the CG at the back of the wing ala DP. Next: Stan has the CG at the front of the wing. Next: Stan's scale weighs heavy. Next: Maurice's scale weighs light. Next: Stan's plane has more carbon, paint or epoxy in it so it's slightly heavier. Next: I've heard 61-65 ounces depending on servo choice. Let's face it; if you use sub micros at 6 grams or you use micro digitals at nearly an ounce a piece, you'll end up with different weights. Next: 99% of us couldn't tell the difference between the way a 61 ounce plane and a 65 ounce plane flies. 4 ounces out of 60 is only .07%. That's nothing for the majority of us. Most of us can't tell the difference in how a plane flies unless we change the loading by 2 ounces per square foot, which equates to about 20 ounces. On a light plane like an AVA, we might notice a difference in the way the plane flies at 1 ounce per square foot increased loading, or an additional 10 ounces. Next: None of this really matters at 1000' and 20 minutes! Just my humble opinion of course. Personally, I think you've done fine Stan! gv -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] #31 is 61 even ready to fly. Maurice And how much weight did you have to put in to balance? Stan RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Mine weighs 61.75 oz prior to balance. How does this compare with yours?
Maurice has the CG at the back of the wing ala DP. Actually George I have the CG set just in front of the horizontal stab :-) Maurice - Original Message - From: George Voss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Stan Myers' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 10:13 AM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Supra ? Mine weighs 61.75 oz prior to balance. How does this compare with yours? This proves several things. Any or all of the following could apply. First is Gordy's rule of weights: Everyone else's plane weighs less than yours no matter how light yours is. If you build a Supra RTF at 40 ounces, somebody will have a lighter one! Then: Stan is a lousy builder. Next: Maurice is a great builder. Next: Maurice used lighter equipment than Stan. Next: Maurice has the CG at the back of the wing ala DP. Next: Stan has the CG at the front of the wing. Next: Stan's scale weighs heavy. Next: Maurice's scale weighs light. Next: Stan's plane has more carbon, paint or epoxy in it so it's slightly heavier. Next: I've heard 61-65 ounces depending on servo choice. Let's face it; if you use sub micros at 6 grams or you use micro digitals at nearly an ounce a piece, you'll end up with different weights. Next: 99% of us couldn't tell the difference between the way a 61 ounce plane and a 65 ounce plane flies. 4 ounces out of 60 is only .07%. That's nothing for the majority of us. Most of us can't tell the difference in how a plane flies unless we change the loading by 2 ounces per square foot, which equates to about 20 ounces. On a light plane like an AVA, we might notice a difference in the way the plane flies at 1 ounce per square foot increased loading, or an additional 10 ounces. Next: None of this really matters at 1000' and 20 minutes! Just my humble opinion of course. Personally, I think you've done fine Stan! gv -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] #31 is 61 even ready to fly. Maurice And how much weight did you have to put in to balance? Stan -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.392 / Virus Database: 268.6.1/344 - Release Date: 5/19/2006 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra ? Mine weighs 61.75 oz prior to balance. How does this com...
In a message dated 5/18/2006 11:32:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And how much weight did you have to put in to balance?Stan Irrelevant, How does it fly? Don RichmondSan Diego, CA (Ozona, TXtoday)[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra wiring harness/ballast tube ?
Dave, For someone who claims to be able to fly F3B without team help, I'm sure you should be able to solve this minor irritation without outside help as well. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] hi, what are you guys doing with the Molex connector on the Hoopes harnness when you plug the wing in, when using a ballast tube ? are you folding the wires over and laying the plug in the fuse, or opening up the hole in the wing and tuck the plug up in there ?? Dave Hauch www.git-r-built.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra wiring harness/ballast tube ?
Mr. Corven, I certainly hope that comment was made in jest, because if not it is very much out of line. Dave Hauch is always willing to share the neat little tricks he has come up with through the multiple builds he has been doing lately. Also, he never really said he could fly competitive F3B without a Team, he just said it did not require a team to practice it. Not everybody is blessed with having multiple flying buddies interested in F3B to be able to form a team to practice with, so for Dave to have figured out a way to get out and practice the tasks on his own should be commended not ridiculed. With attitudes like yours, I wonder why more people aren't rushing to join the fun. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS Ps, Dave H., check with either Jim Porter or my brother, they can probably help you with your harness question. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; RCSE soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra wiring harness/ballast tube ? Dave, For someone who claims to be able to fly F3B without team help, I'm sure you should be able to solve this minor irritation without outside help as well. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] hi, what are you guys doing with the Molex connector on the Hoopes harnness when you plug the wing in, when using a ballast tube ? are you folding the wires over and laying the plug in the fuse, or opening up the hole in the wing and tuck the plug up in there ?? Dave Hauch www.git-r-built.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra possible repair
If really needed, I think it's possible to add a plywood plate with a second threaded nut or insert to the inside of the fuselage below the pylon for the front wing bolt. It would need to match the inside curve of the fuselage to minimize load distortion of the fuselage. Depending on the thickness of the plywood plate it might also need to have some relief to clear the ballast tube, although it appears that there is at least 1/4 between the top of the fuselage and the ballast tube. It should be possible to locate the plate by using a LONG fully threaded bolt that passes through the existing threads and picks up the threads in the added plate. Either epoxy or medium CA should be sufficient to hold the plate in place as all loads on the plate should be in tension. I plan on flying my Supra as it's originally built, but I will keep a close watch on the integrity/rigidity of the front threaded insert. This may be especially critical after ANY landing that torques the pylon, perhaps breaking the bond between the spooge retaining the threaded insert and the insides of the pylon. regards, Jim Porter Johnston Iowa USA The airplane stays up because it doesn't have the time to fall. Orville Wright RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra possible repair
To add to what Jim said the plate doesn't need to exactly match the curve, wax the bolt, polish it, wax it again polish it or use pva and splooge a mixture of epoxy and microballoons between the plate and fuse. For the stress here a little more epoxy than a normal light splooge... you want strength not necessarily light weight. That will take up any deficiencies in the plate, and relieve the fuse distortions.. Jim Porter wrote: If really needed, I think it's possible to add a plywood plate with a second threaded nut or insert to the inside of the fuselage below the pylon for the front wing bolt. It would need to match the inside curve of the fuselage to minimize load distortion of the fuselage. Depending on the thickness of the plywood plate it might also need to have some relief to clear the ballast tube, although it appears that there is at least 1/4 between the top of the fuselage and the ballast tube. It should be possible to locate the plate by using a LONG fully threaded bolt that passes through the existing threads and picks up the threads in the added plate. Either epoxy or medium CA should be sufficient to hold the plate in place as all loads on the plate should be in tension. I plan on flying my Supra as it's originally built, but I will keep a close watch on the integrity/rigidity of the front threaded insert. This may be especially critical after ANY landing that torques the pylon, perhaps breaking the bond between the spooge retaining the threaded insert and the insides of the pylon. regards, Jim Porter Johnston Iowa USA The airplane stays up because it doesn't have the time to fall. Orville Wright RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
It looks to me like the bolt anchor mounts extend down into the pylon, but nowhere near as far as they could. A sound fix would be to switch to longer bolts which go all the way through the existing anchors, and into epoxy/glass-flox threads potted in between the pylon walls. This may require tapping through the bolt anchords, dunno. If the bolt extends down below the point where the pylon flares out at the bottom, then the bolt will be mechanically trapped, so you're not relying on the epoxy's peel strength. Potting longer bolts should be straightforward even if the platform plate is still intact. Just use a syringe to inject epoxy/flox splooge through the bolt holes. Or maybe through the pylong access hole? Then screw in the well-waxed bolts. BTW, the best way to prepare the CF surface for bonding is to wet sand it with wet epoxy. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Don, Another thought for #42. If you are willing to give up the ballast tube then fab a wood crutch that attaches to the fuse bottom. Replace the adjustable tow hook with a screw in hook and install t-nuts into the wood crutch at the wing bolt locations for wing attachments. This will require considerable carving inside of the pod but could be a very secure way to attach the wing. Two screws thru the fuse bottom and the WELD epoxy should do the trick. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don Richmond San Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com ---BeginMessage--- Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today)[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com ---End Message---
RE: [RCSE] Supra #42
Exactly. When I spoke with Barry about this, he was adamant that the pylon wing mount was correctly designed. The plane has been extensively tested, even with 2-man tows. That said, I am sorry that Don is having this problem. I am not giving up my place in line. ;-) --Jim Laurel From: Mike Fox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:04 AM To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 Don, By the pictures and from what I have seem of mine. It looks like the bag the fuseor have a ballon inside to keep the carbon tight in the molds. This usually leave a shiney finish after removal. From the pictures, it just looks like a poor bond. Even where the nut is down in the pylon, it has come loose looking again like a bad glue joint. I think Larry Jollys fix will also take care of it with no problem. Don, If you do not think the plane will hold up,,,Put it in a box and send it to me, I would take another :-) We have to rememberThere are quite a few flying now and how many failures like this? Mike Fox
Re: RE: [RCSE] Supra #42
If this is an isolated problem then it appears to me that Vladmir should step up with a replacement fuse for Don. It's really tough to tell a whole lot from pictures, but it does not look like this one was very well bonded and could have just been a fluke. See Ya, Pat McCleve Wichita, KS From: Jim Laurel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/03/28 Tue PM 02:45:17 EST To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Supra #42 Exactly. When I spoke with Barry about this, he was adamant that the pylon wing mount was correctly designed. The plane has been extensively tested, even with 2-man tows. That said, I am sorry that Don is having this problem. I am not giving up my place in line. ;-) --Jim Laurel _ From: Mike Fox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:04 AM To: Soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 Don, By the pictures and from what I have seem of mine. It looks like the bag the fuse or have a ballon inside to keep the carbon tight in the molds. This usually leave a shiney finish after removal. From the pictures, it just looks like a poor bond. Even where the nut is down in the pylon, it has come loose looking again like a bad glue joint. I think Larry Jollys fix will also take care of it with no problem. Don, If you do not think the plane will hold up,,,Put it in a box and send it to me, I would take another :-) We have to rememberThere are quite a few flying now and how many failures like this? Mike Fox RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42
Gordy, Are you trying to set something up so guys will bail off the waiting list for the Supra, and you will then get yours sooner? What a schemer! By the way Arend told me he thought my Supra was "Nose Heavy"., Browning almost keeled over , he has flown it too!Best Regards Larry-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: soaring@airage.comSent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:06:17 ESTSubject: [RCSE] Supra #42 If this is an isolated problem then it appears to me that Vladmir should step up with a replacement fuse for Don. It's really tough to tell a whole lot from pictures, but it does not look like this one was very well bonded and could have just been a fluke. Hi guys! I've passed your feelings along to Vladimir, pretty sure he was wondering what you thought he should do (you know the right thing), but I'm not sure that 'step up' translates into Ukraine. I have his address in case you are forming up a lynch mob. :-)Funny Vlad went from a hero to a bum in less than 24 hours and he don't even know it :-) Last I read, Don Richmond asked for ideas on how to fix his fuse, not suggestions about what to tell Vladimirbut now he has some thoughts on that idea too:-) Here's Vladimir's address if you have some suggestions or ideas on how to change the fuse, the mold the layup or the resin, likely he would be happy to hear them. :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tell him I sent you :-) In the mean time what you are flying this season ? GordyGiant, Superior, Sharon, and yep carbon Supras :-) oops sounds pretty Perfect too :-)
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42.596172
Larry, So it's nose heavy : ) What's your CG at? I've heard a lot of different ones from 92 to 108. I'measing my way back and am at 98. Haven't noticed a lot of flying difference in the 94 - 98 range (Did move the tow hook back a tiny bit). It's hard to tell the best set up for landing yet. Tom Anyone with it way back? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 Gordy, Are you trying to set something up so guys will bail off the waiting list for the Supra, and you will then get yours sooner? What a schemer! By the way Arend told me he thought my Supra was "Nose Heavy"., Browning almost keeled over , he has flown it too!Best Regards Larry-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: soaring@airage.comSent: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 17:06:17 ESTSubject: [RCSE] Supra #42 If this is an isolated problem then it appears to me that Vladmir should step up with a replacement fuse for Don. It's really tough to tell a whole lot from pictures, but it does not look like this one was very well bonded and could have just been a fluke. Hi guys! I've passed your feelings along to Vladimir, pretty sure he was wondering what you thought he should do (you know the right thing), but I'm not sure that 'step up' translates into Ukraine. I have his address in case you are forming up a lynch mob. :-)Funny Vlad went from a hero to a bum in less than 24 hours and he don't even know it :-) Last I read, Don Richmond asked for ideas on how to fix his fuse, not suggestions about what to tell Vladimirbut now he has some thoughts on that idea too:-) Here's Vladimir's address if you have some suggestions or ideas on how to change the fuse, the mold the layup or the resin, likely he would be happy to hear them. :-) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tell him I sent you :-) In the mean time what you are flying this season ? GordyGiant, Superior, Sharon, and yep carbon Supras :-) oops sounds pretty Perfect too :-)
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42
With all the hoopla about the SUPRA ? saveyourselfall thepain and problemsand buy a SHARON... Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
I can't believe that the only thing holding the wing bolts on is that thin cf cap. Very poor engineering. The trick now is how to do something to the ones that haven't popped off yet. I really don't want to cut mine off, but it is probably better than loosing a wing -- or whole plane. My suggestion for you, since it's already off, is to glue a thick blocks across the pod and insert a threaded rod for the screws. You can probably just cut out the existing ones, or even glue the existing blocks into the new blocks Then just use the cap to cover everything, but not as support for the wing. Other option is to glue 1/4 plywood down flush in the pod. and put the threaded rods in it. Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:50 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don Richmond San Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Thats all holding your wings on Guys, Zenith carbons in stock call NOW! Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com 949-645-7032 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:51 PM To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don Richmond San Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Am I seeing that right? The wing hold down nuts are simply attached to the bottom of that top cap that pulled off? No bulkhead or anything inside the pylon/fuse to hold the wing mount nuts in place?? If soI wouldnt put it back together the same way. Id say do a bulkhead type arrangement likeMD does in the Supras. If you have the holdown bolt going thru the bottom ofathick round bukhead, to which the nut is attached at the bottom of, it wont be able to pull up thru the pylon, unless of course the pylon rips off! Bring out the full on two man tows guys!! Walter - Original Message - From: Tom Copp To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 3:56 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem Thats all holding your wings on Guys, Zenith carbons in stock call NOW! Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com 949-645-7032 -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:51 PMTo: soaring@airage.comCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today)[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem, FIX :-)
Thats a poor fix Gordy. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 4:35 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem, FIX :-) I can't believe that the only thing holding the wing bolts on is that thin cf cap. Very poor engineering. The trick now is how to do something to the ones that haven't popped off yet. I really don't want to cut mine off, but it is probably better than loosing a wing -- or whole plane. I have been following Don's thread, since just after his #42 had been crashed a few times at AZ, so I have decided to modify my Supra's fuse so that that the wing bolt nuts and fuse 'cap' won't give out on mine after crashing a few times. the answer is Bondo...well bondo and cloth. I figure if I wrap enough cloth around that super light pod construction, (picture one of the three stooges with a toothache head wrap to get a better idea of my fix). The glop her up with Bondo, likely it will never crack or anything of the like after its been nosed in hard from a power line drop. Don if you want I can send more detail on the fix :-) Looks like its time for a new pod, since no glue is going to hold under the incredible twisting and flexing the pylon gets during launches and landings. Gordy
RE: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
So you've got some in stock after replacing the one that had a jiggawatt of power run through it's wing at the SWC -l :-) :-) :-) -Original Message- From: Tom Copp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 3:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem That's all holding your wings on Guys, Zenith carbons in stock call NOW! Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com 949-645-7032 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Don, It's hard to tell what you have to work with for repairs even though your pics are pretty good. For adhesive I would say WELD epoxy is the stuff you want to use here and I would install a pair of new T-nuts between two layers of .050 carbon sheet under the original saddle cap. Also a piece of 1/16 ply sheet above the t-nut heads between the carbon layers. Put this sandwich together and install on the pylon wet taking care to get straight and level. The WELD epoxy has a fairly long working time so all this is possible. At this point I wouldn't worry much about added weight for this size bird, but I would also order a new set of fuse parts for down the road. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don Richmond San Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com ---BeginMessage--- Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today)[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com ---End Message---
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem, FIX :-) - ???
In a message dated 3/27/2006 4:45:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thats a poor fix Gordy Is there a good fix for Gordy?? Don Richmond
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Mark's original Supra pod and hold-down design can be found in this PDF: http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articles/supra/all%20PDFs/supra_fuse.pdf The fore bolt goes down into a 1/2 ply bulkhead, and the aft bolt appears to be in the pylon itself. Though, immediately upon reading this, I thought of the way the wing bolts onto an XP-4 DLG, since it's pod is very Supra-esque. Take a look here: http://www.polecataero.com/v/xp4/200601-djensenxp45/200601-djensenxp45+17-wingbolt3.JPG.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com http://www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don Richmond San Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Before this whole thread gets out of control, we should all remember that #42 was CRASHED at Phoenix. From what I heard, it went into some power lines, then crashed from around 75ft. Apparently, the repair wasn't adequate. Just because the Supra wing mount didn't survive a crash, doesn't mean it is not correctly designed to withstand the normal stresses of hard launches and contest landings. My Supra will be here in a few days, and I will have no qualms about flying it hard! Cheers - Jim Laurel Seattle Area Soaring Society RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem - the real story
In a message dated 3/27/2006 5:49:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Before this whole thread gets out of control, we should all remember that #42 was CRASHED at Phoenix. From what I heard, it went into some power lines, then crashed from around 75ft. Apparently, the repair wasn't adequate. While it is true that the Supra encountered the wires, it is not true that it crashed from 75 ft. It was rejected by the wires and flown to the ground without any damage. The problem with the rear hold down bolt was discovered three flights later following a "dork" landing. This was repaired with a generous amount of epoxy applied to the separated area. The latest failure occurred approximately 50 flights later during another firm landing. How it held together for the preceding launch is just good luck. In my opinion, if you only launch hard, but land gently, you will not have a problem. Unfortunately, this is not my style. Occasionally I spear the landing. Don Richmond
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem - the real story
I saw Don hit the wires and it did not hit the ground that hard. For those who are wondering why Don's plane was not a smoldering pile of rubble, the power had been knocked out earlier by a plane that became the above mentioned pile of smoldering rubble. I'm curious if there have been other unreported failures. I'm sure that Don's flying style is not atypical of the common TD pilot. If so, there are probably other failures out there. From the pictures, this certainly doesn't look like the best possible mounting system. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ While it is true that the Supra encountered the wires, it is not true that it crashed from 75 ft. It was rejected by the wires and flown to the ground without any damage.
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
From Dons pics all I can say is break out the checkbook! - Original Message - From: Jim Laurel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: rcse Yahoo soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem Before this whole thread gets out of control, we should all remember that #42 was CRASHED at Phoenix. From what I heard, it went into some power lines, then crashed from around 75ft. Apparently, the repair wasn't adequate. Just because the Supra wing mount didn't survive a crash, doesn't mean it is not correctly designed to withstand the normal stresses of hard launches and contest landings. My Supra will be here in a few days, and I will have no qualms about flying it hard! Cheers - Jim Laurel Seattle Area Soaring Society RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Dear #1 through #99, I was within 20 feet of the crash - remember I was out there hunting for a dropped pocketknife. The plane tapping the wires and landing in the tilled dust that is desert farm land was softer than any competition landings I have seen. I would recommend that the saddle area be beefed up before y'all go flying again. Paul www.casl.net PS Fusions Rule! On 3/27/06, Jim Laurel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Before this whole thread gets out of control, we should all remember that #42 was CRASHED at Phoenix. From what I heard, it went into some power lines, then crashed from around 75ft. Apparently, the repair wasn't adequate. Just because the Supra wing mount didn't survive a crash, doesn't mean it is not correctly designed to withstand the normal stresses of hard launches and contest landings. My Supra will be here in a few days, and I will have no qualms about flying it hard! Cheers - Jim Laurel Seattle Area Soaring Society RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
Don, Clean up the curedepoxy around the edges with some 80 grit. Make sure you get everything shiny keyed and scuffed. Remove the wire harness. Procure some small carbon fiber sock material 1/4" diameter should be good. Cut a length that will fit the perimeter of the wing hold down about a 1/4 "from the edge. Make up some slow cure epoxy and some fairly thick slurry with cotton flocking. Wet the tube out on plastic and lay it in place on the pod side of the wing mount. Using the tube as a dam apply a seam of flocking around the edge of the mount. Use some of the epoxy to wet the top cap where it will touch the flocking and the tube. If there is any place that the bolt hold downs can touch the pod sides apply a coat of cotton flocking slurry. Push the top plate into posiiton and if it goes down all the way tape the edge with packing tape. If it will not go down rearrange the sock by pushing it towards the center of the mount. Now turn the fuselage upside down and clean the excess epoxy off the exterior of the fuse pod. Keep the fuselage upside down over night. That should do the trick. Best Regards Larry
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 problem
The problem here is that any sort of repair will never have the integral strength of the original lay-up. Essentially any adhesive employed will only be attaching itself to already-cured laminate/matrix. The most appropriate adhesive would be the original epoxy-type, but I would liek to drive the point home that you will never achieve a homgenous bond (single cured phase) given the already cured materials present. This will be a problem. Given what I see in those pics, you are going to have to somehow attach the wing mounting system such that the loads are transfered directly to the rest of the lower fuselage. If you do somehow determine what epoxy was employed, and can figure out a reliable means of mechanically re-attaching the wing hold-down system, and you actauly(!) decide to use that fuse again...consider autoclaving (hotbox) the entire repair at ~120-130F for a few hours, then allow to cool slowly. However check first to see whether the design is already heat-cured - if so then this elevated cure process will not be effective. This will cause the existing cured matrix and the now-new matrix to be elevated past their room temp glass transition point. The result will be at least a partial bonding of the old and new. I suggest that lateral loads from catching wingtips is going to create concern with this pod/boom system. I wish you luck with the repair attempt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Supra Enthusiasts, Check out the latest failure mode shown on my web site (www.hilaunch.com http://www.hilaunch.com) under photos. The beginning of the problem showed at Phoenix when the rear of the CF cap that holds the wing attachment nuts came loose. I applied a generous amount of epoxy, but that repair did not solve the problem. On a landing yesterday, the entire wing with the hold down bolts popped from the fuse. Fortunately the landing had been completed and there was no additional damage. If you have a good idea about how to repair this problem, send me an email. Don Richmond San Diego, CA (Pensacola, FL today) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com -- Simon Van Leeuwen RADIUS SYSTEMS PnP SYSTEMS - The E-Harness of Choice Cogito Ergo Zooom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra... Waiting and waiting....Nope
In a message dated 3/16/06 3:46:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How many have given up waiting for a Supra and are now looking at a Pike instead?Curious...Steve, I definitely think you should go with the Pike! My Supra is working quite well. See you in Loooville? Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra flies and Marc Gellart
George, how were you able to sit down for dinner man? If I lost 8 liters of fluid in less than 8 hours, I wouldnt be sitting down on anything for the next month! Walter - Original Message - From: George Voss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:42 AM Subject: [RCSE] Supra flies and Marc Gellart Marc Gellart called me on Wednesday to let me know he'd be in town Friday night. My wife and I met him at his hotel and took him for a great piece of Oklahoma Beef. I had the Supra and salad since I spent Valentines night in the hospital getting hydrated after a serious bout with the stomach bug that's going around. I lost about 8 liters of fluid in less than an 8 hour period on Tuesday and was quite dehydrated. We got to talk about sailplanes, work, family, sailplanes, the Nats and other world issues. We had a great time and hope Marc did also. If anyone else is coming into OKC for work or whatever, please look me up. I get to talk about soaring more than I actually doing it, so hearing from others is important. Have a great weekend. 16' and snowing in OKC. George RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra flies and Marc Gellart
You incorrectly assumed it was only coming out of one end. ;-) -Original Message- From: Marta Zavala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 2:11 PM To: George Voss; Soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra flies and Marc Gellart George, how were you able to sit down for dinner man? If I lost 8 liters of fluid in less than 8 hours, I wouldnt be sitting down on anything for the next month! Walter - Original Message - From: George Voss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 11:42 AM Subject: [RCSE] Supra flies and Marc Gellart Marc Gellart called me on Wednesday to let me know he'd be in town Friday night. My wife and I met him at his hotel and took him for a great piece of Oklahoma Beef. I had the Supra and salad since I spent Valentines night in the hospital getting hydrated after a serious bout with the stomach bug that's going around. I lost about 8 liters of fluid in less than an 8 hour period on Tuesday and was quite dehydrated. We got to talk about sailplanes, work, family, sailplanes, the Nats and other world issues. We had a great time and hope Marc did also. If anyone else is coming into OKC for work or whatever, please look me up. I get to talk about soaring more than I actually doing it, so hearing from others is important. Have a great weekend. 16' and snowing in OKC. George RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: RE: [RCSE] Supra flies and Marc Gellart
Many thanks to George, and his dear wife, for putting up with us talking soaring. We went back to the hotel after dinner and I showed him some videos that were around the web on full size soaring. Really good time by all. Goerge is a great host, just wished he was able to get out more and fly with us. Marc I promise, no Supra was harmed by the removal of weight while we ate dinner. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra Antenna Placement - bottom placement
Is your equipment PPM or PCM? Single or Dual Conversion? Is the range checking done with the transmitter antennae fully collapsed or partially? Here's a link to a good article on range checking. http://www.jrradios.com/Articles/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1079tag=hht2004 Rob -Original Message- From: Donald B. Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:48 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Molded Supra Antenna Placement - bottom placement Update on antenna placement question I posed on Tuesday. I did a fair amount of range testing today before I maidened my new carbon Supra #48. I tried the thick walled plastic tube along the tailboom - works but only what I consider to be very marginal range (approx 120 feet). Shortening a long story. Gordy - you told me so! What worked best for me was to lengthen the antenna so that 18 of antenna extended out beyond the end of the tailboom. 18 has not been optimized. I just found that with 18 out the back I had more than 300 feet of range and ran out of dry area in my melting snow covered soggy field before I started to see any glitches or jittering. Don RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Supra Antenna Placement - bottom placement
PPM or PCM? It is PPM but doesn't really make a difference. Single or Dual conversion? - it is dual conversion TX antenna fully collapsed or partially? - fully collapsed and trying all orientations between tx antenna and rx antenna trying to find the worst case orientation, this is the failed distance. don -Original Message- From: Rob Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 9:18 AM To: 'Donald B. Barker'; soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Supra Antenna Placement - bottom placement Is your equipment PPM or PCM? Single or Dual Conversion? Is the range checking done with the transmitter antennae fully collapsed or partially? Here's a link to a good article on range checking. http://www.jrradios.com/Articles/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1079tag=hht2004 Rob RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Problem/ being fixed - dimensions
Mike, Don and all other Supra owners, I went to a metric fastener specialty shop and bought longer 4mm flathead capscrews at 35mmL(front) and 25mm(rear), these are 5mm longer than my supplied phillips head screws which only gave minimal engagement as I mentioned in an earlier post. I now have 9.5mm full thread engagement. I could supply the longer pieces for .22cents(front) and .15 cents(rear) plus a small amount for postage to any one who can't get their own. These are black phosphate coated, allen, flathead capscrews in a hardness equivalent to SAE grade 8. Contact me on or offline for these capscrews. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/16/06 12:00:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am only posting this so other Supra flyers can inspect there ships to see if they need to get a longer screw for the rear bolt. We would hate to loose any ships to this problem. Check my web site under photos for the Supra write up and the dimensions of the bolts. Don Richmond San Diego, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com ---BeginMessage--- In a message dated 2/16/06 12:00:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am only posting this so other Supra flyers can inspect there ships to see if they need to get a longer screw for the rear bolt. We would hate to loose any ships to this problem. Check my web site under photos for the Supra write up and the dimensions of the bolts. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com ---End Message---
Re: [RCSE] Supra Problem/ being fixed - dimensions - screws
In a message dated 2/17/06 6:37:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I now have 9.5mm full thread engagement. I could supply the longer pieces for .22cents(front) and .15 cents(rear) plus a small amount for postage to any one who can't get their own Thanks Dave, but I bought 50 stainless steel screws today. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra Problem/ being fixed - dimensions
In a message dated 2/16/06 12:00:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am only posting this so other Supra flyers can inspect there ships to see if they need to get a longer screw for the rear bolt. We would hate to loose any ships to this problem. Check my web site under photos for the Supra write up and the dimensions of the bolts. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra impressions at the SWC
Daryl, first congratulations for the win, and for talking the talk, and walking the walk. I personally have great respect for that. Second, I want to know how you did with landing for bucks? ;-) At 05:13 PM 2/13/2006, Daryl Perkins wrote: Thanks to all at the SWC... I had a blast. Congrats to everyone who made the trek, and hung out in the sun and great weather... it was definitely worth it. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra impressions at the SWC
Second, I want to know how you did with landing for bucks? ;-) I cleaned up this weekend. Able to order the new Jag now ;-) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra impressions at the SWC
At 07:27 PM 2/13/2006, Daryl Perkins wrote: Second, I want to know how you did with landing for bucks? ;-) I cleaned up this weekend. Able to order the new Jag now ;-) Excellent... http://nostalgic.net/arc/bicycles/1959%20Schwinn%20Jag%201.jpg ;-) Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra impressions at the SWC
Way Cool Schwinn Bike The Jaguar MKII Looks like it's in need of a tune up... Can I be of service. I beat I built a dozen or more of these babes.. Candy Apple is one of my favorite colors. Cheers. Al - Original Message - From: James V. Bacus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra impressions at the SWC At 07:27 PM 2/13/2006, Daryl Perkins wrote: Second, I want to know how you did with landing for bucks? ;-) I cleaned up this weekend. Able to order the new Jag now ;-) Excellent... http://nostalgic.net/arc/bicycles/1959%20Schwinn%20Jag%201.jpg ;-) Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! But has it's six been flipped upside down?...Supra-natural?
You're right Bill. These planes are so good, the pilots don't even need to show up. Jon - Original Message - From: Bill's Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marta Zavala wrote: Well this weeks SWC will be one of the molded Supras first test, lets wait and see. Walter Well, based on the reports to date is there any reason to even show up?? I guess it will be fun to see which Supra takes it all. #42 or #41 or might it be #17?? Can't wait!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Insanity at the SWC... and giving....
I hope you and the Insanity kick some serious tail Daryl. Dont want to have to sell mine and become another mass market flyer again. Good luck man! Walter - Original Message - From: Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 4:27 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra Insanity at the SWC... and giving Hi Guys, I spoke to Barry the other day... he said something about having shipped over 60 Supras so far... so if 67 have been shipped... I'm assuming the best I'll be able to pull off is 68th place... but I'll be there... and I'll keep swingin'.. if I can knock just one off... I'll be happy... Ok...ok I want you guys to know what a giver I am... I actually went to the hobby store... bought some wood to make a down and dirty mold to mold some lead ballast for my Insanity at Phx... just so it won't blow for you guys... if I have ballast... it won't blow... you guys owe me... and since Supras penetrate 100 kt wind at 28 ounces with little to no loss in altitude... and go up on gerbel farts when balanced at 92.5 cm I LOVE having a target... ;-) My Insanity and I will be in Phoenix... bring your singles... In the immortal words of Al Bundy... Let's Rock. D __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra pictures
Thanks for the pictures Don! At 11:36 PM 2/6/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In response to numerous questions, I have posted a few pictures of #42 on my web site www.hilaunch.com under photos. Don Richmond San Diego, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537 LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!!
Is the CG different in the carbon model? Where did it end up. I'm at 92.5 mm 64 mm seems really forward. Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! Following three weeks of slooow assembly, Supra #42 (carbon) was launched today. The weather at Poway was perfect with light winds, light thermals and lots of sun. No rain this year so there is no grass, just brown stubble that generates thermals from about 0900 until sunset. My Supra is a carbon model with a beautiful dark orange fuse and white and orange wings. Assembly took a little longer than I expected mainly due to my desire to put the pushrods inside thefuse and boom. The fuse is tight quarters with the ballast tube installed. Details of the pushrod installation are available from me off line. The Airtronics 94761Z digital servos are a perfect fit in the wing and fuse. I used the supplied hardware to connect servos to flight controls and covered the servos with the supplied covers. Thanks to Barry Kennedy and Larry Jolly for providing me with pictures and suggestions about making the installation and setup. 'ole #42 was almost perfectly trimmed and flew nearly the length of the field with the first hand launch. The first winch launch was equally nice with a steep climb without the application of a launch mode. I used the 5? degree tip joiners for increased stability during launch and thermalling at long range with my ancient eyes. All up weight was 68 ounces including 3.5 ounces of nose lead and the CG was set at 64 mm. After the joy of the first successful launch waned, I noticed that Supra was still at about winch height although not encountering any thermals. A quick trip around the field, down in the valley and way upwind did not produce a thermal encounter, but did produce a 5+ minute flight. The model has great L/D and good speed range. It will go fast and it will slow down for min sink or thermaling. A quick dive test and inverted flight showed a nose heavy condition so .5 ounces were removed for the next flight. Again the dive test and inverted still showed a nose heavy condition so another .5 ounces were removed. Now it was right for my style of flying. It will pull out of a dive test in 4-500 feet and flies inverted with little elevator. A few adjustments were needed for the elevator compensation in landing mode, but it isn't quite there yet. However landings are easily controlled as the model will slow to a walk even without a head wind. The large rudder provides good control for those last minute "jinks" for the tape. The Supra is a well designed, beautifully constructed thermal duration model. It is very stable on launch and in flight with no bad habits that I could see on these first flights. Judging from the winch launch results, the carbon wing should be strong enough for F3J (I will test it this weekend in Phoenix). Thanks again to Airtronics, Barry Kennedy and Larry Jolly for their help with this project. Contact me directly with question regarding assembly or setup. See you in Phoenix. Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!!
I'm at 108 with #31. Maurice - Original Message - From: Tom Broeski To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 3:27 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! Is the CG different in the carbon model? Where did it end up. I'm at 92.5 mm 64 mm seems really forward. Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! Following three weeks of slooow assembly, Supra #42 (carbon) was launched today. The weather at Poway was perfect with light winds, light thermals and lots of sun. No rain this year so there is no grass, just brown stubble that generates thermals from about 0900 until sunset. My Supra is a carbon model with a beautiful dark orange fuse and white and orange wings. Assembly took a little longer than I expected mainly due to my desire to put the pushrods inside the fuse and boom. The fuse is tight quarters with the ballast tube installed. Details of the pushrod installation are available from me off line. The Airtronics 94761Z digital servos are a perfect fit in the wing and fuse. I used the supplied hardware to connect servos to flight controls and covered the servos with the supplied covers. Thanks to Barry Kennedy and Larry Jolly for providing me with pictures and suggestions about making the installation and setup. 'ole #42 was almost perfectly trimmed and flew nearly the length of the field with the first hand launch. The first winch launch was equally nice with a steep climb without the application of a launch mode. I used the 5? degree tip joiners for increased stability during launch and thermalling at long range with my ancient eyes. All up weight was 68 ounces including 3.5 ounces of nose lead and the CG was set at 64 mm. After the joy of the first successful launch waned, I noticed that Supra was still at about winch height although not encountering any thermals. A quick trip around the field, down in the valley and way upwind did not produce a thermal encounter, but did produce a 5+ minute flight. The model has great L/D and good speed range. It will go fast and it will slow down for min sink or thermaling. A quick dive test and inverted flight showed a nose heavy condition so .5 ounces were removed for the next flight. Again the dive test and inverted still showed a nose heavy condition so another .5 ounces were removed. Now it was right for my style of flying. It will pull out of a dive test in 4-500 feet and flies inverted with little elevator. A few adjustments were needed for the elevator compensation in landing mode, but it isn't quite there yet. However landings are easily controlled as the model will slow to a walk even without a head wind. The large rudder provides good control for those last minute jinks for the tape. The Supra is a well designed, beautifully constructed thermal duration model. It is very stable on launch and in flight with no bad habits that I could see on these first flights. Judging from the winch launch results, the carbon wing should be strong enough for F3J (I will test it this weekend in Phoenix). Thanks again to Airtronics, Barry Kennedy and Larry Jolly for their help with this project. Contact me directly with question regarding assembly or setup. See you in Phoenix. Don Richmond San Diego, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies lead
Then I'd better get the lead out. Doc Drella... what do you think? T - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tom Broeski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! I'm at 108 with #31. Maurice - Original Message - From: Tom Broeski To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 3:27 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! Is the CG different in the carbon model? Where did it end up. I'm at 92.5 mm 64 mm seems really forward. Tom - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! Following three weeks of slooow assembly, Supra #42 (carbon) was launched today. The weather at Poway was perfect with light winds, light thermals and lots of sun. No rain this year so there is no grass, just brown stubble that generates thermals from about 0900 until sunset. My Supra is a carbon model with a beautiful dark orange fuse and white and orange wings. Assembly took a little longer than I expected mainly due to my desire to put the pushrods inside the fuse and boom. The fuse is tight quarters with the ballast tube installed. Details of the pushrod installation are available from me off line. The Airtronics 94761Z digital servos are a perfect fit in the wing and fuse. I used the supplied hardware to connect servos to flight controls and covered the servos with the supplied covers. Thanks to Barry Kennedy and Larry Jolly for providing me with pictures and suggestions about making the installation and setup. 'ole #42 was almost perfectly trimmed and flew nearly the length of the field with the first hand launch. The first winch launch was equally nice with a steep climb without the application of a launch mode. I used the 5? degree tip joiners for increased stability during launch and thermalling at long range with my ancient eyes. All up weight was 68 ounces including 3.5 ounces of nose lead and the CG was set at 64 mm. After the joy of the first successful launch waned, I noticed that Supra was still at about winch height although not encountering any thermals. A quick trip around the field, down in the valley and way upwind did not produce a thermal encounter, but did produce a 5+ minute flight. The model has great L/D and good speed range. It will go fast and it will slow down for min sink or thermaling. A quick dive test and inverted flight showed a nose heavy condition so .5 ounces were removed for the next flight. Again the dive test and inverted still showed a nose heavy condition so another .5 ounces were removed. Now it was right for my style of flying. It will pull out of a dive test in 4-500 feet and flies inverted with little elevator. A few adjustments were needed for the elevator compensation in landing mode, but it isn't quite there yet. However landings are easily controlled as the model will slow to a walk even without a head wind. The large rudder provides good control for those last minute jinks for the tape. The Supra is a well designed, beautifully constructed thermal duration model. It is very stable on launch and in flight with no bad habits that I could see on these first flights. Judging from the winch launch results, the carbon wing should be strong enough for F3J (I will test it this weekend in Phoenix). Thanks again to Airtronics, Barry Kennedy and Larry Jolly for their help with this project. Contact me directly with question regarding assembly or setup. See you in Phoenix. Don Richmond San Diego, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.hilaunch.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! But has it's six been flipped upside down?...Supra-natural?
Some feel that the Supra is just the 'flavor' of the month, but in fact it isn't even ice cream. Tip to tip, nose to tail, its different. Seems to me that there should be a new Supra Class. Based on everything I've read about this plane it just is not fair for it to compete against the current stock of obsolete designs. I mean, what chance does an Icon or Sharon stand against this new design?? Very demoralizing to have to suffer simply because you did not get on the band wagon fast enough. This could be the end of thermal duration competition as we know it!! WEM RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! - with upside down CG!
In a message dated 2/6/06 3:28:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is the CG different in the carbon model? Maybe Where did it end up. I'm at 92.5 mm 64 mm seems really forward. Good call. The real number is 92 at the start and now 93 after removing some lead. Can I blame the bifocals?? Don RichmondSan Diego, CA[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.hilaunch.com
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! But has it's six been flipped upside down?...Supra-natural?
Well this weeks SWC will be one of the molded Supras first test, lets wait and see. Walter - Original Message - From: Bill's Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring@airage.com Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 6:21 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! But has it's six been flipped upside down?...Supra-natural? Some feel that the Supra is just the 'flavor' of the month, but in fact it isn't even ice cream. Tip to tip, nose to tail, its different. Seems to me that there should be a new Supra Class. Based on everything I've read about this plane it just is not fair for it to compete against the current stock of obsolete designs. I mean, what chance does an Icon or Sharon stand against this new design?? Very demoralizing to have to suffer simply because you did not get on the band wagon fast enough. This could be the end of thermal duration competition as we know it!! WEM RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra #42 flies!! But has it's six been flipped upside down?...Supra-natural?
Marta Zavala wrote: Well this weeks SWC will be one of the molded Supras first test, lets wait and see. Walter Well, based on the reports to date is there any reason to even show up?? I guess it will be fun to see which Supra takes it all. #42 or #41 or might it be #17?? Can't wait!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Insanity at the SWC... and giving....
So you must have reserved #69 for yourself ?!? (hmm, you all get your mind out of the gutters) ;-) At 06:27 PM 2/6/2006, Daryl Perkins wrote: Hi Guys, I spoke to Barry the other day... he said something about having shipped over 60 Supras so far... so if 67 have been shipped... I'm assuming the best I'll be able to pull off is 68th place... but I'll be there... and I'll keep swingin'.. if I can knock just one off... I'll be happy... Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra almost done Hoopes
Nice to find out after building it [EMAIL PROTECTED] It would be nice to be told you can't use the hoopes as instructed if you use the ballast tube. Let me know what you find out before I change the plugs to MPX ones. Would have made my own harness if I had known. Tom KG4ZSR - Original Message - From: Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra almost done Those of you that are building or have built your molded Supra I have a question. I am going to use a Hoopes wiring harness, but with the balast tube in the connector for the wiring harness will not stow in the fuse. Did you cut an oval in the bottom of the center section to match the opening on the pylon and stow the connector in the center section or what did you do? Walt #23 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra almost done Hoopes
Ouch! Is the ballast tube an option? Is it in the kit? I'm watching this thread since I will have this problem as well. Steve Meyer SOAR, LSF IV At 07:43 AM 1/5/2006, Tom Broeski wrote: Nice to find out after building it [EMAIL PROTECTED] It would be nice to be told you can't use the hoopes as instructed if you use the ballast tube. Let me know what you find out before I change the plugs to MPX ones. Would have made my own harness if I had known. Tom KG4ZSR - Original Message - From: Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra almost done Those of you that are building or have built your molded Supra I have a question. I am going to use a Hoopes wiring harness, but with the balast tube in the connector for the wiring harness will not stow in the fuse. Did you cut an oval in the bottom of the center section to match the opening on the pylon and stow the connector in the center section or what did you do? Walt #23 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra almost done Hoopes
It is separate, so you don't have to install it, but it would be nice to have. T - Original Message - From: S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tom Broeski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED]; soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra almost done Hoopes Ouch! Is the ballast tube an option? Is it in the kit? I'm watching this thread since I will have this problem as well. Steve Meyer SOAR, LSF IV At 07:43 AM 1/5/2006, Tom Broeski wrote: Nice to find out after building it [EMAIL PROTECTED] It would be nice to be told you can't use the hoopes as instructed if you use the ballast tube. Let me know what you find out before I change the plugs to MPX ones. Would have made my own harness if I had known. Tom KG4ZSR - Original Message - From: Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 8:24 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra almost done Those of you that are building or have built your molded Supra I have a question. I am going to use a Hoopes wiring harness, but with the balast tube in the connector for the wiring harness will not stow in the fuse. Did you cut an oval in the bottom of the center section to match the opening on the pylon and stow the connector in the center section or what did you do? Walt #23 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra and Hoopes wire harness
If you only go to the rear wing bolt, you won't be able to ballast much. I guess a tungsten slug might work. . Wonder what it would cost without the large plugs (MPX instead). Wonder if this plane would really need much ballast. How did you install the tow hook? How far from the boom seam (not end of fuse) does your slot start? T - Original Message - From: Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 12:34 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra and Hoopes wire harness Well I got the Hoopes wire harness to fit down inside the fuse on the Supra with the ballast tube in place. To achieve this I had to do several things to make it work. 1. Remove the locking tab that holds the two wiring harness connectors together. Use tape to hold them together before flying if your worried about them coming apart. I also did some minor trimming on the two connectors themselves. 2. Remove any excess material from the oval opening in the pylon. Caution, don't remove any material from the inside of the pylon. It is very thin and you will be into gel coat before you know it. If in doubt don't do it. 3. You will only be able to insert the ballast tube in about as far as the aft wing hold down bolt, perhaps just a little further. Any further and you will not be able to get the wiring harness connector down inside the fuse. If you follow these steps you will be able to get the wiring harness connector inside the fuse. Room to spare? No, but it will fit. Walt #23 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra and Hoopes wire harness
For those of you who would like to incorporate a high perfomance plug-and-play PnP - automated connection) connector system that will fit this and other extremely tight constraints, I have a specialized micro-D that will fit. They are not cheap though... Quoting Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Well I got the Hoopes wire harness to fit down inside the fuse on the Supra with the ballast tube in place. To achieve this I had to do several things to make it work. 1. Remove the locking tab that holds the two wiring harness connectors together. Use tape to hold them together before flying if your worried about them coming apart. I also did some minor trimming on the two connectors themselves. 2. Remove any excess material from the oval opening in the pylon. Caution, don't remove any material from the inside of the pylon. It is very thin and you will be into gel coat before you know it. If in doubt don't do it. 3. You will only be able to insert the ballast tube in about as far as the aft wing hold down bolt, perhaps just a little further. Any further and you will not be able to get the wiring harness connector down inside the fuse. If you follow these steps you will be able to get the wiring harness connector inside the fuse. Room to spare? No, but it will fit. Walt #23 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format Simon Van Leeuwen PnP Systems - The E-Harness of Choice Radius Systems Cogito Ergo Zoom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra and Hoopes wire harness
Okay. Do you have a link or is it private? At 12:15 PM 1/5/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you who would like to incorporate a high perfomance plug-and-play PnP - automated connection) connector system that will fit this and other extremely tight constraints, I have a specialized micro-D that will fit. They are not cheap though... Quoting Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Well I got the Hoopes wire harness to fit down inside the fuse on the Supra with the ballast tube in place. To achieve this I had to do several things to make it work. 1. Remove the locking tab that holds the two wiring harness connectors together. Use tape to hold them together before flying if your worried about them coming apart. I also did some minor trimming on the two connectors themselves. 2. Remove any excess material from the oval opening in the pylon. Caution, don't remove any material from the inside of the pylon. It is very thin and you will be into gel coat before you know it. If in doubt don't do it. 3. You will only be able to insert the ballast tube in about as far as the aft wing hold down bolt, perhaps just a little further. Any further and you will not be able to get the wiring harness connector down inside the fuse. If you follow these steps you will be able to get the wiring harness connector inside the fuse. Room to spare? No, but it will fit. Walt #23 Simon Van Leeuwen PnP Systems - The E-Harness of Choice Radius Systems Cogito Ergo Zoom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra and Hoopes wire harness
There is no link Mr. Meyer, however if folks are interested I can send pics comparing it to the accepted standard (at least one of my standards - DB-15HD/30uM gold). regards S Meyer wrote: Okay. Do you have a link or is it private? At 12:15 PM 1/5/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you who would like to incorporate a high perfomance plug-and-play PnP - automated connection) connector system that will fit this and other extremely tight constraints, I have a specialized micro-D that will fit. They are not cheap though... Quoting Walt W5SWA [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Well I got the Hoopes wire harness to fit down inside the fuse on the Supra with the ballast tube in place. To achieve this I had to do several things to make it work. 1. Remove the locking tab that holds the two wiring harness connectors together. Use tape to hold them together before flying if your worried about them coming apart. I also did some minor trimming on the two connectors themselves. 2. Remove any excess material from the oval opening in the pylon. Caution, don't remove any material from the inside of the pylon. It is very thin and you will be into gel coat before you know it. If in doubt don't do it. 3. You will only be able to insert the ballast tube in about as far as the aft wing hold down bolt, perhaps just a little further. Any further and you will not be able to get the wiring harness connector down inside the fuse. If you follow these steps you will be able to get the wiring harness connector inside the fuse. Room to spare? No, but it will fit. Walt #23 Simon Van Leeuwen PnP Systems - The E-Harness of Choice Radius Systems Cogito Ergo Zoom -- Simon Van Leeuwen RADIUS SYSTEMS PnP SYSTEMS - The E-Harness of Choice Cogito Ergo Zooom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra internal pushrod intallation.
I don't know if I will do internal pushrods on my Supra or not, but when I did it on the Ava I used a similar technique using cottonballs and CA to make very light internal bulkheads to support the pushrods. At 05:14 PM 1/1/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is long but useful info: Well Barry, the fuse is complete and the internal pushrods are great. Start with the two holes into the pod lined up with the servo output arms. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra internal pushrod intallation.
Sounds smart and Lite... my 2 cents CJ At 06:23 PM 1/1/2006, James V. Bacus wrote: I don't know if I will do internal pushrods on my Supra or not, but when I did it on the Ava I used a similar technique using cottonballs and CA to make very light internal bulkheads to support the pushrods. At 05:14 PM 1/1/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is long but useful info: Well Barry, the fuse is complete and the internal pushrods are great. Start with the two holes into the pod lined up with the servo output arms. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra
.com/ So when people talk about a Supra (glider) it could mean a lot of different things. Different fuses and lengths, different airfoils, different wingspans, different wing construction (bagged or molded), etc... Yeah, and other things too. Like different linkages (the Drela design uses RDS for ailerons and flaps, but I don't think Keisling and Barnes use them). I can't comment much on the molded supra. But I am a big Drela fan and consider myself a builder of 2 of his designs (Allegro Lite and Bubble Dancer). If you go to the Charles River page, you will often see that Mark lists alternate ways to do things, so you can in fact build one of his designs several different ways. It is possible no two Bubble Dancers or Supras are alike. That is one of the things that I think make his designs popular. Guys get to chat about how they went about building his designs. I think the one constant thing in the Supra is the airfoil (the Kennedy version, the Drela version, the wings Phil makes, and I think the Thermal Dancer all use the AG40 series foils) and that the Supra wing and model is specifically designed to handle F3J launches and that the model is designed for F3J flying. In reality, the Drela Supra is really quite similar to one of his earlier designs, the Aegea (remember the guys using the Barnes Aegea wings on Ava fuses last year, although the Barnes spar is a lot different than Mark's spar design). The spar was changed a bit on the Supra to be more twist resistant for high speed F3J launches (no sweep in the spar). The horizontal tail had the sub rudder removed to avoid a possible rule issue in F3J. The boom is supposed to be even stiffer. Things like that. Confusing/fun, eh? My winter project is a 2 meter Aegea wing to fit my Allegro Lite fuselage. And, if I have time a second fuselage. Ryan RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra wing joiners
At 07:35 PM 12/28/2005, you wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Chuck Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The bagged Supra isn't restricted to only three wing joiner angles. You can bend them to any angle you desire. :-) Chuck, Actually, the Dr. Drela designed supra has straight carbon joiner rods (it is a 3 peice wing). The joiner angle is set into angled verticle grain basswood. So in effect, it has only one polyhedral option. Ryan I was referring to the Supra wing from Phil Barnes. Chuck Andeson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Question??
Thanks for the input on bagged vs molded Supra. Im looking forward to trying out the bagged Supra. I would prefer to fly bagged stuff anyway, maybe the bagged Supra will be the plane for me. Been in limbo every since Fred Sage quit making planes as thats all I used to fly and was plenty satisfied with them. Want to try out one of Daryls Insanities as well as it looks to be quite a performer. Walter - Original Message - From: Marta Zavala [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com; James V. Bacus [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:11 PM Subject: [RCSE] Supra Question?? Im putting together a bagged Supra ala Mike L. fuse/Phil Barnes wings/tail surfaces. It will be a while as there is a wait on the wings, but that is fine as Im in no hurry. My question is how do you guys in the know think the bagged supra Im putting together will stack up against the molded one now available? I know the bagged one will be lighter but other than that not sure about anything else. Thanks, Walter - Original Message - From: James V. Bacus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.com Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Supra That's the kind of information I was looking for, thanks. I have seen some of those links before but not all. And I guess it answers my question, there are countless variations of the Supra. I'll be getting a molded one but it seems to be in the spirit of things I should modify it in some way too. ;-) At 03:35 PM 12/27/2005, Ben Wilson wrote: There is one and only one official Supra plan, and those plans and info can be found here: http://charlesriverrc.org/articles/supra/supra.htm And you can get even more info here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allegro-Lite/ - the messageboard http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Allegro-Lite/files/Supra/ -the files section And there are a number of Supra RCGroups threads: CNC Supra Build http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=364296highlight=supra another supra build - the slow way http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=437733 Drela Supra http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320761highlight=supra Here is my unofficial take on what is a Supra, gleaned from my hours of research: There were a handful of people building there own Supra before Kennedy got his into production, and there are many ways to skin a Drela sailplane to mix metaphors... The Supras that were at the NATS this year (Kiesling, Lachowski and Barnes) were most-likely modified slightly from the Drela design for any number of reasons. Mark likes tiny fuselages and some of his construction techniques are a bit too time consuming for mere mortals. The basic parameters of the plane stay the same, the construction techniques often differ due to time/material/builder peculariaties. AFAIK, the wing airfoils stay the same - AG40-AG41-AG42, and most of the Supras out there are bagged wings. Mark's original Supra was 48oz and Kiesling said he has three: two 58oz models and one 64oz model, all of them bagged wings. As far as wingspans and such go, there might be some confusing the Aegea 130 wing with the Supra wing. The Supra wing is the evolution of the Aegea 130 wing (which Phil makes for the Mantis). Mark explains the differences between those two wings on this page: http://charlesriverrc.org/articles/supra/supra.htm I've never heard any discussion on changing length of the tailboom, but the fuselages are often resized as Mark's fuses are tidy affairs with little wiggle room. Also, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a Supra that doesn't use that sweet little V-mount horizontal stab. I have read quite a bit about spar and wing construction alternatives, though that could easily take days to sift through. And finally... There are a few folks producing individual pieces and parts for the Supra... Les Horvath of CompuFoamCore.com had a fuse/wing/tail core set for sale and Bud Elder makes those v-mounts (in varying sizes!). From time to time you'll see folks offering up Supra fuselages, but they come and go. The bottom line is that if you really want to *know* about the Supra, go and read through the links I've posted, specifically the Yahoo group. End of last fall, I put together an Aegea Mantis w/ a Luckenbach fuselage and Phil's Aegea 130 wing. It's like a poor-boy Supra. A lot of the same ideas, but different, and cheaper (and heavier). One day I might get my homebrew Supra together. James V. Bacus wrote: I have read about the Kennedy molded Supra on the web page, but isn't that a Drela Design as well? It seems when people talk about a Supra (glider) it could mean a lot of different things. Different fuses and lengths, different airfoils, different wingspans, different wing construction (bagged or molded), etc... -- Ben Wilson Web Developer/Consultant [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: 502.836.8551 home: 502.290.0624 Jim Downers Grove
Re: [RCSE] Supra Question??
Walter, That will depend strictly on who trims the ship and who's flying the ship. In my view the 'molded vs. bagged' discussion is strictly academic. The differences between the two methods will be so slight that only the top .01% of the world's RC pilots might be able to discern a difference. That being said... the molded ships will have the beauty of perfection and gleaming finishes whereas the bagged ship will have the pride of construction of the owner. To each his own. Thermals Rick At 12:11 AM 12/28/2005, Marta Zavala wrote: Im putting together a bagged Supra ala Mike L. fuse/Phil Barnes wings/tail surfaces. It will be a while as there is a wait on the wings, but that is fine as Im in no hurry. My question is how do you guys in the know think the bagged supra Im putting together will stack up against the molded one now available? I know the bagged one will be lighter but other than that not sure about anything else. Thanks, Walter RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Question??
Hey Marty, My question is how do you guys in the know think the bagged supra Im putting together will stack up against the molded one now available? First off - Phil's bagged wings are second to none. Best airfoil reproduction and LE shaping for a bagged production wing I've ever seen. Now that being said - What you'll probably notice with the bagged version vs. the molded one will be slightly less cruise performance - getting to thermals...coming home from way downwind, etc... My experience is the very slight low grade ripples that most bagged wings exhibit, and the less than perfectly shaped LE tends to make the model just a bit less slippery, without noticeably hurting sinkrate. You will probably never notice it if you don't range out side by side with a moldie. Now... I used to bag all my slope racers - and they were pretty fast... and with some work, you can eliminate the pitfalls of the bagger. It will require some leading edge templates, upper and lower surface templates... some long sanding blocks... sand and fill...sand and fill... sand and fill... Probably not worth the work if you're not going to a world championships... but my point is with a bit of modelling... we can eliminate any difference between molded and bagged performance... For TD - personally - I just get them from Phil and fly them... ;-) D __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Supra Question??
On 12/28/05, Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you'll probably notice with the bagged version vs. the molded one will be slightly less cruise performance - getting to thermals...coming home from way downwind, etc... My experience is the very slight low grade ripples that most bagged wings exhibit, and the less than perfectly shaped LE tends to make the model just a bit less slippery, without noticeably hurting sinkrate. You will probably never notice it if you don't range out side by side with a moldie. I know that I can't see the difference between molded and bagged wings in flight and generally I can't tell with a stopwatch either. My flying skills are just not that good. The big advantage of bagged wings is that you can change the airfoil and planform easily. This is great if you want to try something out and will only build a few units. As soon as someone is willing to make the molds then molded has several advantages. One of the advantages is the way they look! Many pilots love the look so much that they work at flying better to do justice to the beauty of the plane. :) One plus for molded is I didn't have to build it. OTOH I didn't get to build it. There is something special about specking out a plane that I have built from scratch. Heck, they are ALL FUN! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
