[OSM-legal-talk] Yahoo imagery usage in Merkaartor : ok requested
Chris Browet has been working on getting Yahoo map support in Merkaartor. His first implementation downloaded tiles directly from Yahoo. On advice from the OSM community we disabled this since it was felt this would go against the Terms of Usage of Yahoo : we had to use the flash of javascript API to get to the image. Since then he has implemented a second method : this uses the Qt port of the Webkit html rendering engine to render the following webpage http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/merkaartor/ymap.html (Btw the JOSM yahoo through firefox plugin uses the same page) The webpage is rendered offscreen and cropped to the appropriate image through this code http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/merkaartor/QMapControl/browserimagemanager.cpp Tiles are then managed with QMapControl by Kai Winter and used to construct the background image and are not permanently stored. I strongly believe this is 100% equivalent to the JOSM Yahoo plugin from the point of view of Yahoo. If no serious concerns are raised, I will release a binary release of Merkaartor with the Yahoo maps ability in the next week. cu bart ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] converted GPX trace
Issue resolved, trace deleted by author. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On 24 Apr 2008, at 03:40, Peter Miller wrote: Comments in line -Original Message- From: Shaun McDonald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 April 2008 00:22 To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops On 23 Apr 2008, at 17:45, Peter Miller wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. I know that Google models the bus stops as being on either side of the road. Personally, I believe that it is better to have one node per bus stop, even if they are close together in each direction. To be clear, are you saying that Google say that in the case of two bus stops nearly opposite each other on either sides of the road then these should be encoded as two separate entities? If so they are equivalent to a Transmodel Stop Point. Personally I didn't find Google's description too clear on the matter and I suspect that there may be some data suppliers who interpret the GT stop concept as a Stop Point (two separate entities) and other data suppliers who will interpret it as a Stop Area (one entity). http://code.google.com/transit/spec/transit_feed_specification.html There are debates on the GT email group at the moment about how to code station entrances and stop Points that are distant from the road etc so their data model is still evolving and is probably not as good a reference for us as the EU standards which worked this out 10 years ago. Here's an example: http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8ll=55.934719,-3.316272spn=0.002921,0.010042z=17 It used to display the number of the various bus routes and the companies that run them in a balloon. There is also a hailer zone, where there are no bus stops specifically. The driver just stops where it is safe to do so and passengers need to get on and off. Sure, it would make sense to define a Hail and Ride section as being part of a length of road as an attribute of the road, although one would need to allow for the case where it was only buses in one direction that stopped. Hail and Ride is always the delinquent 'awkward' child in the mix, and will require special attention. In the UK standards there would be one notional Stop Point for each direction for a hail-and-ride section. Hail and ride sections often have stops in the middle of them which are used as reference stops. Though it isn't always safe for the bus to stop at them, so they just stop elsewhere. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm Train platforms are so long that I think that they should be modeled as a way parallel to the railway line as rail=platform. I have done this for Stirling Station, and Edinburgh Park in West Edinburgh, if I remember correctly. This also means that you can model how you get on to and from the station platforms. It's all very well seeing a station there as a dot, but at high zoom you need to know how to get there from the surrounding roads. Agreed. In the EU model there is a distinction between the logical 'Stop Point' (a point feature) and the physical platform (an area) and the track (a line). There would be a logical Stop Points that would be used within the schedules (relating to platform 4, 4A and 4B in my example), and this will separately be associated with a physical bit of the world (a platform). One platform can of course also serve two separate 'tracks'. There may also be one or more Boarding Points associated with the platform associated with where to stand to enter the train through a particular door for one's booked seat. As I mentioned in an earlier post the physical design of the station is described in the IFOPT standard. Incidentally platforms are called Quays for ferry services and are similar to Gates in airports. In the EU standard they are all of these are called Quays. http://www.naptan.org.uk/ifopt/ I am interesting in the idea of how OSM might model larger transport
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008, Andy Allan wrote: You are taking what you believe to be true, and applying it to everyone else. The same can be said for both sides of this discussion. If you think there is no clear winner, then shoudn't the established conventions should take precendence? There are established conventions for both flat tagging schemes and namespacing - see the likes of the piste proposal, the lighthouses proposal, etc. Otherwise it's just change for change's own sake, and that's a waste of time. Nothing is being changed - these are tags which didn't previously exist. - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm This interpretation is now being discussed as ISO level so is probably the one to go with. Are we agreed that this is the appropriate interpretation for the feature going forward. In which case shall I add this clarification and interpretation to the relevant OSM tag page? Btw, Someone might like to ask the DfT in the UK at some point for a copy of the DB they have with the location of over 350,000 bus stops with their names and the name of the associated street. I know the people but it might be better if it came from someone else, possibly from the foundation? Regards, Peter Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:03:14 +0900 From: Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops To: Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 How am I supposed to do bus stops? If two bus stops are on opposite sides of the road then I think maybe they can share a node? I found in some email that you can make little short service links. I don't like that. The bus pulls over to the side of the road where I'm at. Sometimes they aren't exactly across the street from each other. Where I'm at there are lots of wood and concrete bus shelters. On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 12:07 AM, Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Excellent background information for basing our models. Thank you Peter. Mike At 07:21 AM 11/08/2007, Peter Miller wrote: The conventional way of handling Bus Stops in the public transport industry is to have a node for each individual point at which one can get on a vehicle, so if there are two bus stops on opposite sides of the road then they are represented as two nodes. If there are three bays in a row on one side of the road then they are represented a 3 nodes in a row. Every Bus Stop in the UK has a unique code, and this is sometimes printed on the bus stop itself. In the EU standards they are called 'Stop Points' (rather than Bus Stops) so they can cover buses, tram, rail, ferry planes etc. In railway stations there is a Stop Point for each Platform (and each bay in a bus station, each Gate for an Airport and each quay in a Ferry terminal). Groups of local Stop Points (as they are called) are then arranged into Stop Areas where they are very close to each other. These Stop Points are not within the road layer because Stop Points are a distinct dataset managed separately; they are then associated with a street, sometimes using the Street Name and sometimes based on proximity. I recommend that we use 'Bus Stop' and 'Stop Point' for this low-level purpose and construct entities as we need them. The database of all these points in the UK is called 'NaPTAN' (standing for 'National Public Transport Access Nodes'), there are about 350,000 of them, and keen people can find additional information here: http://www.naptan.org.uk/ A new CEN standard is in the process of being ratified, called IFOPT which can be used for describe much more complex transport interchanges, such as major airports and railways stations,
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 9:06 AM To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database. For those interested, my Birmingham orientated bus stop mapping consists of the following tags placed on highway nodes (one for each physical stop). highway=bus_stop route_ref=12|255|904|905 location=Lichfield Road, Bakers Lane towards=Shenstone shelter=true ref=053460 (This is the numbered reference of that bus stop. each one has a different number, even when there are two opposite each other at the same point along the highway) Cheers Andy On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Peter Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The EU standard Transmodel defines a Stop Point as 'A POINT where passengers can board or alight from vehicles'. For bus stops this means a single pole, shelter etc and for a place where there are three poles for different services close together then there would be three entries. There are also places where buses stop where there is no physical infrastructure but where buses stop which also need Stop Points. In rural areas there might be a pole on one side of the road but buses stop in both directions, or in some places there is not infrastructure on either side of the road. For there are a number of Stop Points close to each other then these can be grouped into Stop Areas that are 'A group of STOP POINTs close to each other'. I suggest that we achieve this with a relationship call a 'Stop Area' is people are keen to model it. For railway stations it can get more complicated as a platform can be made up of sub platforms (long trains stop at platform 4 and two short ones can stop at 4A and 4B etc). In this case I believe there should be a Stop Point for 4, 4A and 4B. http://www.transmodel.org/en/transmodel/gloss/s.htm This interpretation is now being discussed as ISO level so is probably the one to go with. Are we agreed that this is the appropriate interpretation for the feature going forward. In which case shall I add this clarification and interpretation to the relevant OSM tag page? Btw, Someone might like to ask the DfT in the UK at some point for a copy of the DB they have with the location of over 350,000 bus stops with their names and the name of the associated street. I know the people but it might be better if it came from someone else, possibly from the foundation? Regards, Peter Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:03:14 +0900 From: Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops To: Mike Collinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 How am I supposed to do bus stops? If two bus stops are on opposite sides of the road then I think maybe they can share a node? I found in some email that you can make little short service links. I don't like that. The bus pulls over to the side of the road where I'm at. Sometimes they aren't exactly across the street from each other. Where I'm at there are lots of wood and concrete bus shelters. On Sun, Aug 12, 2007 at 12:07 AM, Mike Collinson [EMAIL
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:02 AM, Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are established conventions for both flat tagging schemes and namespacing - see the likes of the piste proposal, the lighthouses proposal, etc. Namespacing every tag is not an established convention, no matter how much you wish it was. Compare the number of namespaced tags in the planet file to those without. Compare the number of people using namespaced tags with those who aren't. Otherwise it's just change for change's own sake, and that's a waste of time. Nothing is being changed - these are tags which didn't previously exist. That's being disingenuous, and you know it. You are trying to change one of the single biggest conventions in OSM. Anyway, enough from me. I hope others here can help explain. Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 9:06 AM To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. Where as I think of bus stops as a pavement feature -- I really don't care which road it's on, that's the bus driver's problem ;-) I get the feeling we should be tagging both (if you can be bothered) and linking the two -- but I'd prefer this didn't happen with short footways... they come across to me as a bit fake. It's a virtual link, so just keep it virtual: bus_stops=here or something. Alternatively get out the relation box of tricks, but that might be unnecessarily complicated. It's certainly the better option than hacking someone's nice bus stops into your own preferred style, even if you aren't going to do it that way for new mapping. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. This works! I generally find I need the help of a timetable to figure out if I'm at the right stop as it's quite normal for the bus to be heading in the wrong direction for the place stated if it's trying to catch another stop on the way, but given the whole route information you should be able to figure it out. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database And lets face it, the moment someone actually starts using this data we'll probably decide to do something completely different anyway :-) Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 9:06 AM To: Peter Miller Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops Some people advocate nodes off to the side of the way to represent the location of the pole or shelter in relation to the road. Near where I live (Korea) there is often a shelter on one side of the road for buses going both directions. In that case I'm guessing I would put a shelter node on one side of the road and a node that is not a shelter on the other side. How do I relate these nodes to the way? I don't like the idea of short segments perpendicular to the way. Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. Where as I think of bus stops as a pavement feature -- I really don't care which road it's on, that's the bus driver's problem ;-) I get the feeling we should be tagging both (if you can be bothered) and linking the two -- but I'd prefer this didn't happen with short footways... they come across to me as a bit fake. It's a virtual link, so just keep it virtual: bus_stops=here or something. Alternatively get out the relation box of tricks, but that might be unnecessarily complicated. It's certainly the better option than hacking someone's nice bus stops into your own preferred style, even if you aren't going to do it that way for new mapping. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. This works! I generally find I need the help of a timetable to figure out if I'm at the right stop as it's quite normal for the bus to be heading in the wrong direction for the place stated if it's trying to catch another stop on the way, but given the whole route information you should be able to figure it out. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database And lets face it, the moment someone actually starts using this data we'll probably decide to do something completely different anyway :-) Dave -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
Stephen Hope wrote: I think it's just as important to have a list of models NOT to buy. The one recommendation I'd give is: if you're expecting to be at all serious about OSM, grit your teeth and pay for a decent Garmin. I'm now using an eTrex Legend HCx (having started with a basic yellow eTrex, then moved up to a Geko 201) and the difference it makes is enormous: quality of reception, in-built OSM mapping, storage capacity, ease of use, ease of marking waypoints... it's just a beautiful unit, and I wish I'd gone straight to it rather than bothering with the Geko. It's such a shame to see people struggling with gpsbabel, drivers etc. when you can just plug a USB cable into a higher-end eTrex and download the tracks in mass storage mode. Personally I don't get on with the NaviGPS at all, finding it a fiddly, unreliable, counter-intuitive little beastie, and would happily see it consigned to ocean floor surveying duties. But if you're a happy Linux command-line hacker you may have more luck with it than me. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
Richard Fairhurst Sent: 24 April 2008 10:57 AM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations Stephen Hope wrote: I think it's just as important to have a list of models NOT to buy. The one recommendation I'd give is: if you're expecting to be at all serious about OSM, grit your teeth and pay for a decent Garmin. I'm now using an eTrex Legend HCx (having started with a basic yellow eTrex, then moved up to a Geko 201) and the difference it makes is enormous: quality of reception, in-built OSM mapping, storage capacity, ease of use, ease of marking waypoints... it's just a beautiful unit, and I wish I'd gone straight to it rather than bothering with the Geko. It's such a shame to see people struggling with gpsbabel, drivers etc. when you can just plug a USB cable into a higher-end eTrex and download the tracks in mass storage mode. Personally I don't get on with the NaviGPS at all, finding it a fiddly, unreliable, counter-intuitive little beastie, and would happily see it consigned to ocean floor surveying duties. But if you're a happy Linux command-line hacker you may have more luck with it than me. Totally agree with Richard on both points here. I've had a BW legend as my first primary GPS and am really glad thats what I started with and am sure it has a lot to do with keeping me interested in the mapping. Yes I do now need to upgrade the unit to the Legend HCx to get the benefits of more OSM map coverage and faster download/upload from the unit, but the old BW workhorse has served me well and I think if funds are limited and the mapping is only being done periodically and in a reasonable localised area then its still a valuable device even today, and what's more they can be picked up second hand on ebay for less than £50. I'd go for a second hand unit that displays OSM mapping over a Navi or other pure logging platform any day. But hey, each to their own. Cheers Andy cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Ari Torhamo wrote: on the other hand because some of the argumenting has been based on how the use of namespaces would affect the inexperienced OSM:ers - like me. Thanks for your input - you're *exactly* the sort of person we need to hear from, rather than reasoning on a purely technical level or making assumptions about how good/bad things are for inexperienced people. I had to go to Wikipedia to find out what a namespace stands for ... I do understand the idea of a namspace now, but I would need to know more about the practical implementation to know if using namespaces would feel too complicated to me. Well, it is important to realise that there is no real need to know what a namespace is to use namespaced tags, and there isn't really any implementation as such - it is purely a convention for tag names. So instead of having a tag such as grade, which is fairly meaningless without further context (which is provided by the other tags on the node), you call the tag climbing:grade, making it really obvious that it is a climbing grade (i.e. how difficult the climbing route is). Nothing is different, other than the tag name. In my view, this simplifies things since it makes tags unique - you know that climbing:grade is always going to be a climbing grade and you need no further information to do things like look up the definition of the tag on the wiki. For people who don't know or care what a namespace is, this is really no different from the existing system - you want to tag something so you look it up in the wiki to see what the convention is and the wiki tells you what tag name to use. There a couple of scenarios where you might want them: a) We have tags that mean two different things under different contexts. This is really easy to resolve. I've seen some random arguments in this thread already about context but it comes down to this: either you're a human in which case most of the time you'll engage your brain and figure out what makes sense... or you're a computer in which case some nice human has programmed you with the relevant domain knowledge, so you know that highway=climbing happens to be what you're looking for. Confusing good tag naming with adding namespaces doesn't help. b) You want to give specific information about a specific topic, but on a general feature. ie: whitewater:description came up on the wiki. This can easily be read as whitewater_description... it's not really a namespace so much as a longer tag name. The other place this happens might be with ref, or name... if I have a cycle route on a primary road for instance: a real world scenario we use highway=primary, ncn_ref=4, ref=A219, name=Putney Bridge. ncn_ here can effectively be seen as a namespace (although not being called one). Frequently this isn't a particularly comprehensive solution -- in the case of the cycle route, what happens if another cycle route goes over the same road? So for this use case we're tending towards relations. Now lets look at some of the places where namespaces, motivated by the desire to use namespaces have actually been suggested/used: piste:lift -- fine, makes sense as piste_lift too, is a description of a unique feature type. You might be able to get away with lift, but frankly life's too short to worry about that one. piste:lift:occupancy -- wtf? this can only ever happen on a piste:lift right? there is absolutely zero point in this tag.. call it occupancy -- the result is 100% identical. This is purely namespace wanking for the sake of it. It serves no purpose. None. Zip. Nada. The only thing this does is make the tag name very long, and add a pile of annoying colons. climbing:rock -- omg! just what other type of rock is there exactly? It's a flipping rock, nobody gives a monkey that you intend to climb it, limestone is still limestone. Plus it's on a climbing route so people might just get the idea that you're interested in the rock type for a reason. climbing:length -- just what exactly do you think we were measuring? length is length. it's the length of the feature you're tagging, and the namespace adds nothing. So why is it necessary to type this stuff? Your average user is quite happily going to type exactly what you tell them to. The chance of them remembering the key is probably reduced, and the chance of them thinking it's ok to come up with new unnamespaced tags is also reduced which will either mean they won't propose things or else they'll attach meaningless drivel to the start of every tag as a substitute. The chance of someone putting up a proposal getting spammed by people who like typing is also massively increased. And worst of all? You'll wear out my colon key. Complexity-wise I'm actually not that worried -- I think people will just see it as irrelevant text they've been told to add. They'll
Re: [OSM-talk] Naga landuse relations
Hi, You can't use JOSM to check this by looking at the colours on the screen. A properly drawn and tagged island in a lake will be more blue than the lake itself in JOSM. Also, a not properly closed polygon will still be filled by JOSM, but it will not show up in the mapnik rendering. If you want to see the results before you upload them, then you have to render them yourself. Thank you for the hint. What I am more isn't the rendering, but the proper use of relations for landuse/cover polygons. In some of my edits, I just re-use nodes to create adjacent polygon for landuse. I have not used relations yet. cheers, maning -- |-|--| | __.-._ |Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great. -Yoda | | '-._7' |Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden| | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ | | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com| | _)_/LI |-|--| ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Comments in line -Original Message- From: Ben Laenen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 April 2008 12:30 To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: Andy Robinson (blackadder); 'Jeffrey Martin'; 'Peter Miller' Subject: [Spam] Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops On Thursday 24 April 2008, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote: Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. I'd like to compare tagging bus stops with tram stops here. While I think it's common (at least from what I've seen) to use nodes on the ways representing the tram lines, -- like we do for train stations -- for some reason it isn't for bus stops. Even though tram stops have the exact same issue: it's not always a stop in both direction The EU standards make a distinction between a station, and a Stop. Technically there should often be two Stop Points (or platforms) for the tram, or either side of the track and a 'station' for the group. In some cases there may indeed be one platform in the middle of the tram service with tracks on either side in which case only one stop point would be defined. Similarly an metro station may have one 'station' but multiple platforms. It would make sense to rationalise bus stops, tram stops, metro platforms, ferry quays into the same structures as the standards do. The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database. That can be done for bus stops with only one line, but not when there are ten bus lines stopping which go to ten different destinations. Agreed, I think we should avoid overloading bus stops with service information, although ;'towards Birmingham' might be an appropriate way of indicating the direction that all buses much take from that spot, as opposed to ';way from Birmingham' on the other side of the road. But that is to do with the road system not today's bus service patterns. In a beautiful world we could just add the bus stops to the bus route relations, but we'd need to define good roles to make it obvious what direction a bus goes to there. But if that is worked out, there'll be no ambiguity left to put bus stop nodes on the highways anymore. We could talk about modelling bus services, but lets not for now. Lets sort out fixed infrastructure and then revisit timetable. Peter Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 12:30 PM To: talk@openstreetmap.org Cc: Andy Robinson (blackadder); 'Jeffrey Martin'; 'Peter Miller' Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops On Thursday 24 April 2008, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote: Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. I'd like to compare tagging bus stops with tram stops here. While I think it's common (at least from what I've seen) to use nodes on the ways representing the tram lines, -- like we do for train stations -- for some reason it isn't for bus stops. Even though tram stops have the exact same issue: it's not always a stop in both direction The remaining issue revolves around the direction of the bus at a particular node. I didn't have an answer to this until I looked at what the signage was on my local bust stops. Now I find it easy to tag because each one tells me in which direction the bus is travelling (eg towards Birmingham). So I add a towards= tag and jobs a good un. I'm not going to worry at the moment about how I might use this tag to make bus route information, the important aspect is that the data that's needed to work that out later is in the database. That can be done for bus stops with only one line, but not when there are ten bus lines stopping which go to ten different destinations. In Birmingham the towards label on the bus stop gives the general direction and is usually the next logical placename on the general route, often not very far away. It's not the final destination of the route, that's associated with the route reference number and the timetable. Where the location of the stop has many different routes running through it with wildly varying destinations they tend here to place two or more shelters adjacent to each other. I know of some pleases where there is a row of at least 5 stops all next to one other (mainly found in the city centre), all with separate shelters or sign posts. You similarly get the same sort of thing at a bus station of course. Like I said, it's easy for me to forget the difficulty and just enter the data as it's displayed on the bus stop sign. I'm sure I'll work out a way of making use of the data logically a lot later when all the Birmingham bus stops are in the database. Maybe then I'll find I could/should have placed and tagged a little differently, but somehow I suspect what I have got will be good enough. Its working on the ground, so why not via the OSM database. Cheers Andy In a beautiful world we could just add the bus stops to the bus route relations, but we'd need to define good roles to make it obvious what direction a bus goes to there. But if that is worked out, there'll be no ambiguity left to put bus stop nodes on the highways anymore. Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That sounds like an excellent plan. There's rarely any point in waiting to add stuff if you've got the data already, it can always be changed later if necessary. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Cuba under the water
Hi, In Mapnik zooms 7, 8 and 9, most of the isle of Cuba is under the water. Is there anything I can do to fix this? Should I provide a hand-made shapefile or something? Thanks. Lucas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote: Because a bus stop is a highway feature it really in my view should be part of it. And because we map what we see on the ground then logically if there are two bus stops not quite opposite each other then I place two nodes, one for each and tag them appropriately. Placing short links from a bus stop node placed off the highway to the highway itself is I guess fine if those links are tagged as highway=footway, but personally I think that's a lot of unnecessary effort and complexity in the map. I'd like to compare tagging bus stops with tram stops here. While I think it's common (at least from what I've seen) to use nodes on the ways representing the tram lines, -- like we do for train stations -- for some reason it isn't for bus stops. Even though tram stops have the exact same issue: it's not always a stop in both direction It is the same problem where the tram way and the road share the same way, but isn't it more normal to find that there is a way for the tram track in the same way as the separate carriage ways of a two carriage way road? Certainly at some point that would make senses especially with discussions on including details like 'platform' and access to those from footpaths on the railway information. Trams are just less protected railway lines, and a complete map of their tracks with the correct related platforms and stops makes sense? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cuba under the water
2008/4/24 Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, In Mapnik zooms 7, 8 and 9, most of the isle of Cuba is under the water. Is there anything I can do to fix this? Should I provide a hand-made shapefile or something? Thanks. Lucas It looks ok at http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html so maybe you should just wait till the mapnik shapefiles are updated. -- Lauri Hahne ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thursday 24 April 2008, Lester Caine wrote: It is the same problem where the tram way and the road share the same way, but isn't it more normal to find that there is a way for the tram track in the same way as the separate carriage ways of a two carriage way road? I've certainly been tagging two tram tracks as one way (it's also the Belgian consensus to tag two railway tracks next to each other as one way). It makes more sense if the tracks are next to each other to tag them as one way, and you can then make use of the same nodes as the way from the highway it's on for the tram way, and especially when the underlying highway is single carriage. Greetings Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen wrote: We could talk about modelling bus services, but lets not for now. Lets sort out fixed infrastructure and then revisit timetable. Modelling bus lines isn't difficult, just enter some route relations and many people have done it before (time tables are really out of the question right now, I guess no-one wants to enter time table data for each bus stop separately yet, as it would take an hour for one stop I think). What hasn't been done yet is associating bus stops with those routes. Having producing Customer Information Systems for trains and buses for far too long ( Windows 3.1 systems were running until recently ) I think I can vouch that none of this is rocket science. We had reached a point where a default route timetable could be created based on the times between stops and OSM 15 years ago would have been the obvious next step for showing movements. All we need is a list of 'stops' be they bus,tram,train or boat, and then you have the route. We could manually create a full timetable from the 'schedule' in a couple of hours - given the right basic tools ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Christopher Schmidt wrote: I can't claim to have the right answer, but I will state that it is not common in geographic software to have namespaced attributes: in general, when this is the case, it is a namespace based only on the object type which has a specific schema. (In this case, that would be something like pisteLift, since the dataset would be a list of pisteLifts.) But in common software, do the objects have an explicit type? In OpenStreetMap they do not - the type is determined by a bunch of arbitrary tags, for which you need background knowledge of which tags define the object type and which just define attributes (e.g. there is no unified type tag which you know will always define what the object is). - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Ben Laenen wrote: On Thursday 24 April 2008, Lester Caine wrote: It is the same problem where the tram way and the road share the same way, but isn't it more normal to find that there is a way for the tram track in the same way as the separate carriage ways of a two carriage way road? I've certainly been tagging two tram tracks as one way (it's also the Belgian consensus to tag two railway tracks next to each other as one way). It makes more sense if the tracks are next to each other to tag them as one way, and you can then make use of the same nodes as the way from the highway it's on for the tram way, and especially when the underlying highway is single carriage. It depends how fine a level of detail people want at the end of the day, the micro-mapping camp will need to work out how to pull a single way apart to display two tracks and the associated roadway. An on-going discussion I know, but simple changes to the way things are mapped now may make life easier in the future. Converting a roadway to provide two separated ways indicating the footpaths on either side and then showing where footpaths are not available makes a lot of sense when also linked to the actual cycleways and other detail at a micro level. Once the step is taken to indicate either side of a road, adding simple things like bus stop in the right place is easy? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
Dave Stubbs wrote: A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. But you do not want to link isolated 'bus stop' nodes that way. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. I just look at the Relations page and see lots of 'Proposed' ... At the end of the day 'is_in' IS a relation so we are probably actually talking about the same thing, but there is a lot of 'talk' but no practical examples of actually using 'Relations' - at least none I have found yet? There needs to be a style guide to direct us as to how it is INTENDED that Relations should be used, and how a 'bus route' for example could be created from relationships between the way and possible nodes that relate to it. The current discussion is addressing small parts of the whole and not providing a blanket plan to go forward with? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 01:23:32PM +0100, Steve Hill wrote: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Christopher Schmidt wrote: I can't claim to have the right answer, but I will state that it is not common in geographic software to have namespaced attributes: in general, when this is the case, it is a namespace based only on the object type which has a specific schema. (In this case, that would be something like pisteLift, since the dataset would be a list of pisteLifts.) But in common software, do the objects have an explicit type? In OpenStreetMap they do not - the type is determined by a bunch of arbitrary tags, for which you need background knowledge of which tags define the object type and which just define attributes (e.g. there is no unified type tag which you know will always define what the object is). In general, yes, objects are put into a specific database table or some such because they have a specific type with a known set of tags. This isn't really much different than well-curated OSM data, which typically makes it entirely possible to do this using hueristics. It almost sounds like the proposal is to use namespaces in place of a 'type' property on the object... which I personally think would be a better way to go than to namespace every tag... Regards, -- Christopher Schmidt MetaCarta ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Christopher Schmidt wrote: It almost sounds like the proposal is to use namespaces in place of a 'type' property on the object... which I personally think would be a better way to go than to namespace every tag... The idea is to make the context of the tag much more obvious. This can be done by either using namespaces on the tag itself, or having a method of unambiguously identifying the context of the object itself. I don't pretend to understand what was wrong with the old class system, which seemed to achieve this to some extent. On the other hand, having namespaces in the tag name itself does have the advantage that it gives people clues that they might be using the wrong tag.. - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Dave Stubbs wrote: either you're a human in which case most of the time you'll engage your brain and figure out what makes sense... or you're a computer in which case some nice human has programmed you with the relevant domain knowledge, so you know that highway=climbing happens to be what you're looking for. Seems to me that requiring that the computer or human needs a lot of background knowledge about how the context is determined is a bad thing, given that putting the context in the key (and thus removing the ambiguity) is easy. There is no ambiguity. You're inventing ambiguity where there is none. If there was ambiguity I'd agree with you -- there is none so I don't. Seeing as you're interested in the tag in the first place it's a fair bet you already know how to find the context very easily. piste:lift:occupancy -- wtf? this can only ever happen on a piste:lift right? there is absolutely zero point in this tag.. call it occupancy -- the result is 100% identical. This is purely namespace wanking for the sake of it. It serves no purpose. None. Zip. Nada. The only thing this does is make the tag name very long, Of course it serves a purpose - it tells you that the value of the tag describes the occupancy of a lift. An occupancy tag could be used to describe attributes of different types of object - number of people in a building, number of fish in a pond, etc. Without the name space you need to get the context from somewhere else (one of the other tags... which one?) to make it meaningful. And if the occupancy is on a fish pond then it likely does, but frankly if you're suggesting the average piste lift is also a fish pond then you have more problems than I care to go into. So yes you have to get the context from somewhere. Happily you're someone who wants to know about pistes, not about fish, so this isn't actually a problem: if [piste:lift] is not null and [occupancy] is not null then: print piste:lift:occupancy = [occupancy] wow. that was hard. And also demonstrates how completely pointless the namespace was. and add a pile of annoying colons. Who cares whether we use colons, underscores, spaces, whatever? I'm taking the piss. Your average user is quite happily going to type exactly what you tell them to. The chance of them remembering the key is probably reduced, Or the chance of them remembering which tags can be applied to which types of objects is increased because the tag name makes it clear what sort of object it will work with. I'd rate that quite high. and the chance of them thinking it's ok to come up with new unnamespaced tags is also reduced which will either mean they won't propose things This is completely stupid - yes, they might avoid coming up with new unnamespaced tags and *shock* propose new namespaced tags instead. Why is this a bad thing? you snipped the or: they'll attach meaningless drivel to the start of every tag as a substitute which is effectively what you're doing anyway. The chance of someone putting up a proposal getting spammed by people who like typing is also massively increased. Huh? Basically, I'm convinced you know what a namespace is, but not why you would want to use one. What you're doing provides nothing extra: I can throw it away and be left with the same information. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Fields and trees..
In respect of fields, I came across an intresting problem: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.86517lon=-0.35858zoom=17 They current tagging is a compromise, I would welcome further disscusissons on this. Also was it decided that landuse=farm; was the entire farm or just the farm compound(i.e farm yard)? Asking because landuse=farm renders as green (same as landuse-field) where for the farm yard a light brown or 'industrial' tone might be more appropriate... Also using natural=trees for clumps (and areas of trees not quite a 'wood') and natural tree for single trees if I can see them, would appreciate feedback, as well as identifcation (by more experienced contributors) for some of the FIXME=?identify? tags I'm leaving :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Dave Stubbs wrote: And if the occupancy is on a fish pond then it likely does How do you know it's a fish pond? There is no tag that unambiguously identifies the type of object it is. Instead there is a whole load of tags to identify the object, and you have to have a lot of background knowledge about the structure of the data to know which tags identify the object type (and thus the context of the other tags) and which tags are just describing attributes of the object. if [piste:lift] is not null and [occupancy] is not null then: print piste:lift:occupancy = [occupancy] wow. that was hard. And also demonstrates how completely pointless the namespace was. How did you know that the piste:lift tag declares the object as being a lift? That's right, you didn't unless you already had an underlying knowledge of which tags identify the context and which don't. This is completely stupid - yes, they might avoid coming up with new unnamespaced tags and *shock* propose new namespaced tags instead. Why is this a bad thing? you snipped the or: they'll attach meaningless drivel to the start of every tag as a substitute What sort of meaningless drivel? which is effectively what you're doing anyway. Except it is neither meaningless nor drivel. What you're doing provides nothing extra: I can throw it away and be left with the same information. No, you can't - if you throw it away you lose the context of the tags. The *only* way to recover the context information is to know which tag to retrieve it from, which is not something you can do from the data alone. Thus you have lost something which is not recoverable from the data you have - you now need to go find an external data set as well. - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thursday 24 April 2008, Lester Caine wrote: I just look at the Relations page and see lots of 'Proposed' ... At the end of the day 'is_in' IS a relation so we are probably actually talking about the same thing, but there is a lot of 'talk' but no practical examples of actually using 'Relations' - at least none I have found yet? Relations are quite abundant already, the cycle routes are probably the most advanced by now. I've started the page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines for Belgian tram and bus lines to give the tags and thought about this tagging scheme for halts: (note that terminus is the word we use for the turning point of buses or trams, I don't know the proper English word) * Give one terminus a role in the relation like terminus_1, the other terminus on the other side of the line is terminus_2 * The halts along the way get roles like halt_to_1 or halt_to_2 depending on which terminus they go to * Halts in both directions just get a halt role Obviously, it's not perfect yet, I guess somewhere in the world there will be some circular lines for example, with no terminus. Anyway, just brainstorming here to finally come up with a proper solution. Anyone with other ideas? Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk Short perpendicular ways leading to a bus shelter seems wrong to me. I'll read up on relations, but could you elaborate on how it might be used with bus shelters and stops? -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Bus Stops
That link is broken. Try: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Relations and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/OSM_Protocol_Version_0.5 On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Dave Stubbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Lester Caine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: I've made a decision for what I am going to do. If I wait until there is some standard way it will be a hassle to find all these stops later instead of putting them in now with all the other data, and I might loose my little scraps of paper. Here's my plan of action. I'm going to put a node on the exact location of each bus stop offset from the way. I don't want to loose that location data until I'm sure we want to throw it out. Putting a node on the way instead would essentially erase the location of the stops and shelters. If someone wants to come along later and put a node on the way or make some kind of association they can do that. That does seem to be the sensible way of doing it, in the absence of any other guidelines. What of cause is missing is some means of relating it easily to the way that then are actually linked to ? A nice 'is_in' link to the 'unique_id' of the way so that one can actually find all the bus stops on a route ;) Looking at the way things have developed, is there any reason we can't set a tag for is_in, and then select a way, so that the key becomes is_in=# ? I don't think Relations has the necessary structure yet to be useful here? If you want to link two nodes together, then the easiest most obvious way of doing it is to use a way. A way is an object that links two or more nodes afterall. If you want to link a node and a way, the a relation is your tool. This is exactly what relations do, they link and relate objects -- the advantage over putting IDs in tags is that any editor that supports relations in general will know about the connection as will the API, and the DB can maintain referential integrity so you don't end up with hanging links. You can do nice things with the API such as http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.5/way/way_id/relations -- which tells you what relations the way belongs to. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Dave Stubbs wrote: And if the occupancy is on a fish pond then it likely does How do you know it's a fish pond? It would probably have a tag like man_made=fishpond. I don't know there's a tagging schema for that. I'm fairly sure that a piste:lift tag would rule it out though. There is no tag that unambiguously identifies the type of object it is. Why does there need to be? What use case does this enable? Instead there is a whole load of tags to identify the object, and you have to have a lot of background knowledge about the structure of the data to know which tags identify the object type (and thus the context of the other tags) and which tags are just describing attributes of the object. Which you know because you're using the data. You seem to think that a level of ignorance exists, when that ignorance /can't/ exist because it if did then you wouldn't be able to process the tags at all. if [piste:lift] is not null and [occupancy] is not null then: print piste:lift:occupancy = [occupancy] wow. that was hard. And also demonstrates how completely pointless the namespace was. How did you know that the piste:lift tag declares the object as being a lift? That's right, you didn't unless you already had an underlying knowledge of which tags identify the context and which don't. Your wiki page told me. Please show me the application that can do something useful with piste lift data without first knowing that it's looking for the piste:lift tag. How would you know to look for the piste:lift:occupancy tag exactly? magic? No, you know to look for it because you have defined what you're looking for -- the namespace didn't really help at all. You know you're dealing with a piste:lift and you know you want to find out the occupancy. The only situation where the namespace might help is if you randomly searched for *:occupancy and wanted to know what kind of object the occupancy was defined for. Which frankly is useless information, and a query no-one would ever make. Why on earth would you want to know, and what could you possibly do with it once you found out if you didn't happen to already know what a piste lift was in the first place? Why am I looking at the occupancy tag at all if I don't already know what the object is? This is completely stupid - yes, they might avoid coming up with new unnamespaced tags and *shock* propose new namespaced tags instead. Why is this a bad thing? you snipped the or: they'll attach meaningless drivel to the start of every tag as a substitute What sort of meaningless drivel? like piste:lift: infront of occupancy, or climbing: infront of rock. It's garbage information. which is effectively what you're doing anyway. Except it is neither meaningless nor drivel. It has a meaning maybe, but it's an utterly pointless one, and ultimately it's just a waste of space. What you're doing provides nothing extra: I can throw it away and be left with the same information. No, you can't - if you throw it away you lose the context of the tags. The *only* way to recover the context information is to know which tag to retrieve it from, which is not something you can do from the data alone. Thus you have lost something which is not recoverable from the data you have - you now need to go find an external data set as well. Why on earth do I need to know the context for the occupancy tag in this situation? seriously, why am I even bothering to look at an occupancy tag if I don't know what the object is? why? I don't know what problem you're trying to solve here, but it really doesn't need solving. Seriously, I've had enough of this. Namespaces are for when you have no other context to work with, such as xslt stylesheets. On most of the tag suggestions you're defending it's just plain irrelevant. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Dave Stubbs wrote: It would probably have a tag like man_made=fishpond. I don't know there's a tagging schema for that. How did you know that the man_made tag defined the context? Seriously, I've had enough of this. That's fine, but I'm afraid you haven't convinced me to change my position: name spaces are a Good Thing, and I'm clearly not alone in this belief. - Steve xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nexusuk.org/ Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Sutton mapping party - 24/25 May (SW London)
Hello, The details are now finalised, we have the use of the local library with free wifi, support from a local councillor and various local groups including a school and scout group all interested! I'll be getting onto the local media soon too. After the really successful Surrey mapping party this would be a good opportunity to extend that extensively mapped area into the London part of the county. Dates: Sat 24 Sun 25 May Location: Worcester Park, London Borough of Sutton (south west London) More info: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_Sutton_England/Mapping_party Since I'm making it quite public-facing, I'd really appreciate help on the Saturday from the OSM community with: * Ideas for workshops, mentoring newcomers, that sort of thing. I'll be sat in the library the whole day to ensure there's a friendly face for people who turn up. * Preparing printouts of the aerial photography and traced coverage with the cake boundaries, and various different sizes of areas to cover, so people can pick up a sheet and get straight out on the street. * If someone could bring badges, a banner etc. that would also be handy. Let me know if you can help out pop your name on the wiki! Thanks, Tom ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 24 Apr 2008, Dave Stubbs wrote: It would probably have a tag like man_made=fishpond. I don't know there's a tagging schema for that. How did you know that the man_made tag defined the context? Oh for fuck's sake. Because I've got half a brain -- that's the point. If I didn't have half a brain then it would be because someone told me. And if neither was true then I wouldn't know, but it also wouldn't actually matter. And the namespace wouldn't help anyway unless I happened to know it was a namespace, and as I clearly didn't actually know what the object was in the first place this is just a meaningless string to me. Seriously, I've had enough of this. That's fine, but I'm afraid you haven't convinced me to change my position: name spaces are a Good Thing, and I'm clearly not alone in this belief. a Good Thing, but you can't tell me why, and you ignore my reasons why not. This is the problem dude, you don't get why you're doing it. You have faith in the Great Goodness of Namespaces and refuse to question why. I was clearly right with the kitten analogy. I like to know why I'm doing something, and dislike being told because. So far you've not actually come up with anything except statements of belief, and a few potential non-uses. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging climbing routes and scrambles
I like to know why I'm doing something, and dislike being told because. So far you've not actually come up with anything except statements of belief, and a few potential non-uses. I'm in the same boat - I think the flat namespace is a really really bad idea and yet no one has actually come up with any good explanations as to why it is the right way to do things. The only explanation that seems to keep coming up is that new users find name spaces difficult - I am certainly not in a position to evaluate whether this is the case (although from my own perspective they are easier), and I don't believe you are in a position to comment on whether this is actually the case. In fact, the one relatively inexperienced user who has made a comment in this discussion seemed to indicate that nameapaces made things easier. Firstly, I don't actually think inexperienced users would care one way or the other, as I said before. The reason I don't want them is that they are completely and utterly pointless. So one last time as simple as I can get it: You have two objects: 1) piste:lift=generic, piste:lift:occupancy=5 2) piste:lift=generic, occupancy=5 So then we want to ask some simple questions: a) What's the type of the object? - in each case how do you know? b) What's the occupancy of the piste lift? - in each case, how do you know? c) Find all piste lifts with an occupancy = 5. - in each case how do you do this, how do you know? d) Is the object a fish pond? - in each case how do you know? e) does the namespace let us do anything we couldn't before, or make it significantly easier? f) in the case that it doesn't, can you find me a simple question that it does allow us to answer, and that someone would actually ask? Sample answers below: a) for 1) 2) check for the piste:lift tag. we know this tag name from knowledge b) for 1) check the piste:lift:occupancy tag, 2) check the occupancy tag in either case we already know it's a piste lift because of a), and we know the tag name from knowledge c) for 1) search for all objects with piste:lift:occupancy =5, 2) search for all objects with piste:lift occupancy = 5 in either case we get the tag names from knowledge d) I don't know how to tag a fish pond. Can't do it for 1) or 2). Although I already know it's a piste lift, do I know enough about fish ponds to know one can't be a piste lift? Or I do know how to tag a fish pond (say man_made=fishpond) and so it isn't a fishpond as it doesn't have the tag. Again, in either case from knowledge about fish pond tagging, or at least what a fish pond is (human vs computer interest). e) We used the namespace once to answer c), it allowed us to check one tag instead of two. I count this as insignificant. The namespace didn't really help us here. f) I can't think of one. If you want to introduce a class= or type= tag again, then that's a whole different matter. The answer to that question is probably a lot more fluffy with room to manoeuvre. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cuba under the water
On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 15:01 +0300, Lauri Hahne wrote: 2008/4/24 Juan Lucas Dominguez Rubio [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, In Mapnik zooms 7, 8 and 9, most of the isle of Cuba is under the water. Is there anything I can do to fix this? Should I provide a hand-made shapefile or something? Thanks. Lucas It looks ok at http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html so maybe you should just wait till the mapnik shapefiles are updated. It is not quite as simple as that. Zoom 7 - 9 use a shapefile derived from vmap0 that is not normally updated (see [1]). This weeks Mapnik tiles should finish rendering tomorrow. This weekend I'll try updating the style to use the OSM derived shapefiles for zoom 7 + and re-render the 7 - 9 tiles. It may be too slow to render the tiles with these detailed shapefiles. If so, we may need to perform some simplification on the shapefile to optimise the rendering performance. Jon [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Coastline#Main_Mapnik_Layer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
Richard Fairhurst wrote: The one recommendation I'd give is: if you're expecting to be at all serious about OSM, grit your teeth and pay for a decent Garmin. I would be interested to hear how you would rate that solution compared to one involving a bluetooth GPS mouse and using e.g. a cell phone to do the recording and display of OSM maps. With GPS bluetooth receivers selling already at about 20 to 30 pounds, this solution seems quite a bit cheaper than buying a Garmin. I can't really comment on the quality of reception, as I haven't had a Garmin my self, but at least the other points you mentioned, such as built-in OSM mapping, storage capacity ease of use, ... should be achievable with a phone given the right software such as e.g. GpsMid (Trekbuddy or WhereAmI, might work as well, but I haven't tried those). At least for me, the combination of a SE K550 phone with GpsMid works pretty well and I would recommend it, but then I might be a little biased towards GpsMid ;-) Kai I'm now using an eTrex Legend HCx (having started with a basic yellow eTrex, then moved up to a Geko 201) and the difference it makes is enormous: quality of reception, in-built OSM mapping, storage capacity, ease of use, ease of marking waypoints... it's just a beautiful unit, and I wish I'd gone straight to it rather than bothering with the Geko. It's such a shame to see people struggling with gpsbabel, drivers etc. when you can just plug a USB cable into a higher-end eTrex and download the tracks in mass storage mode. Personally I don't get on with the NaviGPS at all, finding it a fiddly, unreliable, counter-intuitive little beastie, and would happily see it consigned to ocean floor surveying duties. But if you're a happy Linux command-line hacker you may have more luck with it than me. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
On 24 Apr 2008, at 19:32, Kai Krueger wrote: I would be interested to hear how you would rate that solution compared to one involving a bluetooth GPS mouse and using e.g. a cell phone to do the recording and display of OSM maps. With GPS bluetooth receivers selling already at about 20 to 30 pounds, this solution seems quite a bit cheaper than buying a Garmin. I can't really comment on the quality of reception, as I haven't had a Garmin my self, but at least the other points you mentioned, such as built-in OSM mapping, storage capacity ease of use, ... should be achievable with a phone given the right software such as e.g. GpsMid (Trekbuddy or WhereAmI, might work as well, but I haven't tried those). I quite liked my Nokia N70 + BlueGPS (Sirf3, non-logging) + nmea_info.py combo. So much so that I bought another BlueGPS when I left my first one on a train in a good position near the window. I can't find its replacement now, so wonder if I left that in a taxi, bleary-eyed after some flight. Having an all-in-one is quite a bit less hassle so I'm sticking with my N95 + SportsTracker for now - will be good for a day out when I buy a spare battery. - L ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
Kai Krueger wrote: I would be interested to hear how you would rate that solution compared to one involving a bluetooth GPS mouse and using e.g. a cell phone to do the recording and display of OSM maps. Well, you can do anything if you connect a Bluetooth GPS mouse to a sufficiently powerful computer! So, sure, if you're prepared to put the time in to get it working, you're probably going to get more features that way (especially if you write the software yourself ;) ). I guess one of the main things I like about the eTrex is that it's a single unit that Just Works. cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
On 24/04/2008 19:57, Laurence Penney wrote: I quite liked my Nokia N70 + BlueGPS (Sirf3, non-logging) + nmea_info.py combo. So much so that I bought another BlueGPS when I left my first one on a train in a good position near the window. I can't find its replacement now, so wonder if I left that in a taxi, bleary-eyed after some flight. Having an all-in-one is quite a bit less hassle so I'm sticking with my N95 + SportsTracker for now - will be good for a day out when I buy a spare battery. I've been very happy with my Nokia N810 internet tablet. The built-in GPS seems pretty good - I thought it had lost it going through some light woodland the other day, as I was on a bit of already mapped road, but in fact mine was right and the existing was wrong. Of course it does lose signal sometimes. When I bought it I did some side-by-side session with my Garmin Geko 301 and I think the Nokia was more accurate and lost the signal less often. I've adapted the in-car holder to be a handlebar mount on my bike, and made some minimal changes to its Maemo Mapper application so that I get one-touch-anywhere-on-the-screen auto-numbered waypoints (which means I can wear gloves in winter and still get waypoints). I can use a bluetooth earphone/mic to take an audio commentary on the device, and when I get home the WAV files and GPX files can just be copied over the network on WiFi and synced in JOSM using the continuous audio features I added. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 4:48 AM, David Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24/04/2008 19:57, Laurence Penney wrote: I quite liked my Nokia N70 + BlueGPS (Sirf3, non-logging) + nmea_info.py combo. So much so that I bought another BlueGPS when I left my first one on a train in a good position near the window. I can't find its replacement now, so wonder if I left that in a taxi, bleary-eyed after some flight. Having an all-in-one is quite a bit less hassle so I'm sticking with my N95 + SportsTracker for now - will be good for a day out when I buy a spare battery. I've been very happy with my Nokia N810 internet tablet. The built-in GPS seems pretty good - I thought it had lost it going through some light woodland the other day, as I was on a bit of already mapped road, but in fact mine was right and the existing was wrong. Of course it does lose signal sometimes. When I bought it I did some side-by-side session with my Garmin Geko 301 and I think the Nokia was more accurate and lost the signal less often. I've adapted the in-car holder to be a handlebar mount on my bike, and made some minimal changes to its Maemo Mapper application so that I get one-touch-anywhere-on-the-screen auto-numbered waypoints (which means I can wear gloves in winter and still get waypoints). I can use a bluetooth earphone/mic to take an audio commentary on the device, and when I get home the WAV files and GPX files can just be copied over the network on WiFi and synced in JOSM using the continuous audio features I added. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk I bought a Garmin HCx Vista. Does the high sensitivity mean that it's better than other receivers or that they are just now catching up to other receivers? -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
Hi, I've been very happy with my Nokia N810 internet tablet. [...] Interesting :) . I just bought such a device a couple of days before. While eagerly waiting for it to arrive (it's difficult to be patient if it comes to gadgets :) , I've added rendering of minor ways (tracks, cycleways, footways etc.) to Navit. I'm very pleased with the device and the Navit maps look just great. But anyway I'm still struggling with the gps stuff. While MaemoMapper seems to do a great job, other applications (including Navit) cause some trouble. It's mainly an issue with gpsd on the device. It cannot be started directly but requires to use a lib. This one will load the gps driver, start gpsd and keep track of the amount of running applications requiring gps signals. navipowm seems to rely on directly accessing the gps device in /dev/. Due to the aforementioned circumstances I do not know yet if it is possible to use it on the device right now. Navit uses gpsd, but cannot start it itself. Thus I need to start gpsd in another way (open gps control panel, start MaemoMapper etc.) before I can use it. Unfortunately, it tends to crash every now and then. But I'm pretty confident those issues can be sorted out :) . I also compiled qtgps as found on [1] to get a better clue about the gps status on the device. I've adapted the in-car holder to be a handlebar mount on my bike, I'm still looking for a good mount. I considered the included plastic holder to be not save enough. I'm still looking for a solution which protects the N810 from jerk, dust and maybe rain. Anyway, is there a picture of the mount you created? and made some minimal changes to its Maemo Mapper application so that I get one-touch-anywhere-on-the-screen auto-numbered waypoints (which means I can wear gloves in winter and still get waypoints). I can use a bluetooth earphone/mic to take an audio commentary on the device, This sounds really cool. Are those features available as patches somewhere to download? and when I get home the WAV files and GPX files can just be copied over the network on WiFi and synced in JOSM using the continuous audio features I added. Ah, things become a lot clearer now :) . Best regards, ce [1] http://www.lieberbiber.de/projects/qtgps.htm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 10:50 PM To: David Earl Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations I bought a Garmin HCx Vista. Does the high sensitivity mean that it's better than other receivers or that they are just now catching up to other receivers? It should mean that its better than the sirf star II chipsets which you find in many older devices but its not as far as I am aware the sirf star III chipset that everyone raves about. I've not seen any comparison between the sirf star III and the chipset used by Garmin in their H devices. Cheers Andy -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
On 24/04/2008, Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I bought a Garmin HCx Vista. Does the high sensitivity mean that it's better than other receivers or that they are just now catching up to other receivers? I have exactly this device and I love it. Its sensitivity is very high, to the extent that it routinely gets a fix from indoors. Heavily wooded areas or tall buildings don't bother it. I'm also very happy with the accuracy and consistency of the trails it makes. Dermot ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
It works for me also. I usually get 8m in Korea. I just have no idea if that is good or not. I don't think WAAS makes a difference here. I see no difference if it's turned on or off. On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 7:47 AM, Dermot McNally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24/04/2008, Jeffrey Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I bought a Garmin HCx Vista. Does the high sensitivity mean that it's better than other receivers or that they are just now catching up to other receivers? I have exactly this device and I love it. Its sensitivity is very high, to the extent that it routinely gets a fix from indoors. Heavily wooded areas or tall buildings don't bother it. I'm also very happy with the accuracy and consistency of the trails it makes. Dermot -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 10:50 PM To: David Earl Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations I bought a Garmin HCx Vista. Does the high sensitivity mean that it's better than other receivers or that they are just now catching up to other receivers? It should mean that its better than the sirf star II chipsets which you find in many older devices but its not as far as I am aware the sirf star III chipset that everyone raves about. I've not seen any comparison between the sirf star III and the chipset used by Garmin in their H devices. Cheers Andy The Garmin eTrex H series use a MediaTek chipset. I've seen a few comparisons with the Sirf Star III, such as this one: http://gpstracklog.typepad.com/gps_tracklog/2007/08/mediatek-gps-ch.html Generally the conclusions from the reviews I've read are that the MediaTek performs equal to if not better in some cases than the Sirf Star III chipset. Karl ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations
I think that either of these units will serve you well and, in my opinion, any purchasing decision should be made on the basis of features, not the brand of chipset. I think he could also add that chip manufacturers don't have a lot of control over things like antenna placement, and case design when someone puts one of their chips in a device. I bet that could make a lot of difference. On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Karl Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeffrey Martin wrote: Sent: 24 April 2008 10:50 PM To: David Earl Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] GPS recommendations I bought a Garmin HCx Vista. Does the high sensitivity mean that it's better than other receivers or that they are just now catching up to other receivers? It should mean that its better than the sirf star II chipsets which you find in many older devices but its not as far as I am aware the sirf star III chipset that everyone raves about. I've not seen any comparison between the sirf star III and the chipset used by Garmin in their H devices. Cheers Andy The Garmin eTrex H series use a MediaTek chipset. I've seen a few comparisons with the Sirf Star III, such as this one: http://gpstracklog.typepad.com/gps_tracklog/2007/08/mediatek-gps-ch.html Generally the conclusions from the reviews I've read are that the MediaTek performs equal to if not better in some cases than the Sirf Star III chipset. Karl -- http://bowlad.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
[Talk-de] neues Worldfile vom 23.4.08
Hallo, das neue Worldfile steht auf meiner Wiki-Seite zum Download zur Verfügung. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:Computerteddy -- Viele Gruesse Computerteddy ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] ?ffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
Am Dienstag 22 April 2008 schrieb Michael Bergbauer: Gerade bei solch eingeschränkten Öffnungszeiten würde sich die Angabe lohnen, weil das Risiko, vor verschlossenem Tor zu stehen, recht groß ist. Ich bin eigentlich dagegen, solche Daten unmittelbar in der Datenbank von OSM zu pflegen. Diese Daten habne nichts mehr mit Karten zu tun, das sehe ich anders: erstmal, bei osm gehts nicht nur um karten, es gibt auch andere anwendungen. sicher kann man das bis ins unendliche treiben und jeden furz an information unterbringen, allzuviel sinn sehe ich darin natuerlich auch nicht. speisekarten und preislisten zum beispiel aendern sich oft fast taeglich, da ist der aufwand groesser als der nutzen (da denke ich, wuerde es auch ein link auf die entsprechende website - falls vorhanden, tun). aber oeffnungszeiten sind allgemeine angaben, die bei fast jeder einrichtung angegeben werden koennen. wenn ich zum beispiel um eine bestimmte uhrzeit oder an einem bestimmten tag was zu essen suche, dann interessieren mich nur die anbieter, die mir auch was verkaufen. d.h. dass die POIs, die zu dem zeitpunkt geschlossen haben, gar nicht gezeichnet bzw. gefunden werden sollen. vielleicht kann mir die anwendung dann auch mitteilen pass auf, in einer halben stunde macht da was auf, wenn sonst nix gefunden wird. das ist halt dann sache der jeweiligen software. aber das geht nur, wenn die daten auch vorhanden sind. wenn ich diese angaben nicht habe, muss ich dumm in der gegend rumfahren, und hoeffen, dass ich nicht vor verschlossenen tueren stehe. noch schlimmer bei einrichtungen mit komischen oeffnungszeiten. sinnvoll ist sowas uebrigens grade fuer offline-anwendungen. denn wenn ich online bin, dann kann ich immer die entsprechende website oder einen anderen auskunftsdienst konsultieren. aber selbst da ist ein einfacher und schneller zu entscheiden, ob ein POI in der naehe ueberhaupt in betracht zu ziehen ist, wenn die oeffnungsdaten bereits vorliegen. Einzige Aufgabe des Mappers waere dann, die Verbindung zur Datenbank dieses Projekts herzustellen und so einen automatisierbaren Datenabruf zu ermoeglichen. Wenn jemand dann Daten fuer Navis erzeugt, kann er diesen Weg ja nutzen und so an die Daten kommen. erstmal braucht es so ein projekt, noch dazu mit einer definierten schnittstelle um das realisieren zu koennen. ausserdem wird dann garantiert eine hohe redundanz entstehen, wenn das ganze separat ist. fuer mich gehoeren solche allgemeinen infos in die osm-datenbank. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Oeffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
Am Dienstag 22 April 2008 schrieb Paul Lenz: Bei allen einrichtungen, die eine webpage haben, w?rde ich keine ?ffnungszeiten angeben. Nicht jeder hat mobiles Internet! Dann würde ich mich auch nicht darauf verlassen, dass die Oeffnungszeiten schon zu Hause auf mein Navi uebertragen wurden. dann muss ich eine anwendung benutzen, die das tut. oder die einem im zweifelsfall mitteilt, dass keine vorhanden sind. In der Praxis: entweder man hat den Besuch des Vogelparks schon zu Hause geplant, dann hat man sich auch ueber die Oeffnungszeiten informiert. Oder man kommt zufaellig an dem Vogelpark vorbei und beschliesst spontan einen Besuch, dann sieht man ja, ob das Tor offen ist oder nicht. bei solchen touristischen attraktionen seh ich das erstmal genau so. die plant man meist, oder man kommt zufaellig direkt vorbei. andererseits kann ich mir durchaus vorstellen, dass man durch einen POI im navi erst auf etwas interessantes aufmerksam wird, wenn man bereits unterwegs ist. dann sind solche angaben aeusserst wertvoll, und sparen vielleicht sinnloses hinfahren. aber wirklich wichtig ist die angabe der oeffnungszeiten fuer dinge wie tankstellen, apotheken, restaurants und andere dienstleister, wo man den besuch in der regel nicht vorher plant, sondern deren dienste meist spontan wuenscht. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Trinkbrunnen
Am Mittwoch 23 April 2008 schrieb Frederik Ramm: Hallo, was dem Deutschen sein Recyclingcontainer ist dem Italiener sein Trinkbrunnen (in OSM). Ist ja auch nichts gegen einzuwenden. Wenn Du ein geeignetes SVG-Symbol fuer Trinkbrunnen herbeischaffst, kann ich (und jeder andere mit SVN-Zugriff auch) das in die Osmarender-Styles einbauen. Groessere Aenderungen sollte man da zwar vorher diskutieren, aber sowas, was eh nur in Rom getaggt wird, duerfte ja sonst keinen stoeren. http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/share/map-icons/svg/misc/tap_drinking.svg unter gpsdrive erreichbar als poi=misc.tap_drinking sowas gibts uebrigens auch in deutschland. zwar nicht soviele wie vielleicht in italien, aber ab und zu stolpert man doch drueber... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Datenschutz und OSM
Am Dienstag 22 April 2008 schrieb Frederik Ramm: Hallo, Mich stört am allermeisten, dass der OSM Server keine GPx files annimmt, die keinen Zeit-Tag enthalten. Für was wird dieser gebraucht? Um die Punkte, wenn jemand anfragt, in einer Reihenfolge auszugeben. oehm, reicht nicht die reihenfolge der trackpunkte im gpx-file bereits aus, um die richtung zu bestimmen? daraus koennte der server ja eine relative nummerierung fuer interne zwecke ableiten... zu meiner vorgehensweise: tracks direkt lade ich prinzipiell nicht hoch. nur mehr oder weniger fertig editierte osm-daten. aus denen ist dann nur noch ersichtlich, dass ich irgendwann mal an dem ort war, mehr nicht. mehr privacy ist wohl nicht moeglich, da ich finde, dass man nur vernuenftig taggen kann, wenn man selber vor ort war, oder richtig gute aufzeichnungen bekommt. wobei, man koennte natuerlich durchaus die fertigen daten im bekanntenkreis austauschen, und dann zeitnah hochladen, dann wird ein tracking sicher verwaschen bis unmoeglich. zumindest bei tracks sehe ich da kein problem, die gesammelt hochzuladen. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neues Worldfile vom 23.4.08
Achtung, die Dateien haben die Standardimplementierung es scheint bei der neuen mkgmap-Version ein Fehler zu existieren, welcher die Kartenelemente entsprechend dem Standard wandelt, wie er im Programm einkompiliert ist. Ich mache grade neue Files mit einer älteren Version von mkgmap... Carsten Schwede schrieb: Hallo, das neue Worldfile steht auf meiner Wiki-Seite zum Download zur Verfügung. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/User:Computerteddy -- Viele Gruesse Computerteddy ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] ?ffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
On Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 09:5052AM +0200, Guenther Meyer wrote: Am Dienstag 22 April 2008 schrieb Michael Bergbauer: Gerade bei solch eingeschränkten Öffnungszeiten würde sich die Angabe lohnen, weil das Risiko, vor verschlossenem Tor zu stehen, recht groß ist. Ich bin eigentlich dagegen, solche Daten unmittelbar in der Datenbank von OSM zu pflegen. Diese Daten habne nichts mehr mit Karten zu tun, das sehe ich anders: erstmal, bei osm gehts nicht nur um karten, es gibt auch andere anwendungen. sicher kann man das bis ins unendliche treiben und jeden furz an information unterbringen, allzuviel sinn sehe ich darin natuerlich auch nicht. speisekarten und preislisten zum beispiel aendern sich oft fast taeglich, da ist der aufwand groesser als der nutzen (da denke ich, wuerde es auch ein link auf die entsprechende website - falls vorhanden, tun). Oeffnungszeiten sind mitunter auch 'tagesaktuell'. Mir ists vor einiger Zeit passiert, dass ich an nem Lokal in dem ich Essen wollte freundlich aber sicher abgewiesen wurde: Geschlossene Gesellschaft. Gut, das ist nun ein ganz anderes Problem, dass sich sicher nie vermeiden lassen wird. Einzige Aufgabe des Mappers waere dann, die Verbindung zur Datenbank dieses Projekts herzustellen und so einen automatisierbaren Datenabruf zu ermoeglichen. Wenn jemand dann Daten fuer Navis erzeugt, kann er diesen Weg ja nutzen und so an die Daten kommen. erstmal braucht es so ein projekt, noch dazu mit einer definierten schnittstelle um das realisieren zu koennen. ausserdem wird dann garantiert eine hohe redundanz entstehen, wenn das ganze separat ist. Fuer Gaststaetten gabe es sowas zumindest teilweise schon (mir faellt da gerade Kneipen-suche.com ein), in den GSoC-Projekten waren Vorschlaege in dieser Richtung. Aber bitte wo sollen die Redundanzen entstehen? Die Gruende, warum ich sowas im Rahmen eines anderen Projekts sehen moechte sind vielfaeltig: - die Pflege dieser Daten sollte von Leuten gemacht werden koennen, die sich nicht erst in OSM und seine Datenstrukturen einarbeiten wollen. Diese Daten sind nicht 'offensichtlich' - wenn ich heute einen Stadtteil, einen Ort gemapped habe und dort auch immer wieder vorbei komme, dann habe ich ne Chance, neue Strassen, neue Geschaefte zu bemerken. Aenderungen an den Oeffnungszeiten bemerke ich aber nur, wenn ich ich das Lokal, den Laden, die Einrichtung gehe - wenn ueberhaupt. Eine flaechendenkende Aktualitaet werden wir (auch bei den Oeffnungszeiten) nur erreichen koennen, wenn ein breiteres Publikum dran mitwirken kann als nur die Leute, die im Moment mit dem GPS durch die Gegend fahren/laufen und sich in das Tagging-Schema eingearbeitet haben und JOSM et al. bedienen koennen. Fuer die Pflege von Oeffnungszeiten und anderen allgemeinen Informationenen ueber POIs ist schlicht dieses Wissen IMO nicht erforderlich, und wenn wir wir alle halbe Jahr (beispielsweise) die von uns gemappten Orte wieder abklappern muessen um ne Aktualitaet der Oeffnungszeiten zu garantieren, dann halte ich das fuer unnoetigt - Ich denke auch, dass die OSM-Datenstrukturen schlecht geeignet sind, beispielsweise Oeffnungszeiten so zu erfassen, dass sie maschinenlesbar sind. Ich kann mir da bliebig viele mehr oder weniger pathologische Sachen vorstellen, die aber sicherlich auch ihre Anwendungsfaelle haben (z.B. in Verbindung mit Schulferien, Feiertagen usw.). Hier bedarf es IMO anderer Datenstrukturen, und auch Leute, die globale Daten wie z.B. Feiertage und Ferientermine pflegen (wo koennten wir die in OSM beispielsweise einpflegen?). fuer mich gehoeren solche allgemeinen infos in die osm-datenbank. Dann aber *bitte* auch Fahrplaninformationen. Dann kann man beim Routing auch oeffentliche Verkehrsmittel mit einbeziehen. -- Michael Bergbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Munich, Germany ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neues Worldfile vom 23.4.08
Hallo, So, jetzt sind wieder die richtigen Elemente in der Karte vorhanden. Ihr könnt loslegen. :-) -- Viele Gruesse Computerteddy ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Datenschutz und OSM
Hallo, oehm, reicht nicht die reihenfolge der trackpunkte im gpx-file bereits aus, um die richtung zu bestimmen? daraus koennte der server ja eine relative nummerierung fuer interne zwecke ableiten... Ja, das ginge bestimmt. Derzeit wird halt von allen Trackpoints ein Timestamp gespeichert. Quelltrack-Id und laufende Nummer muessten genauso gut taugen. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] ?ffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
Am Donnerstag 24 April 2008 schrieb Michael Bergbauer: Oeffnungszeiten sind mitunter auch 'tagesaktuell'. Mir ists vor einiger Zeit passiert, dass ich an nem Lokal in dem ich Essen wollte freundlich aber sicher abgewiesen wurde: Geschlossene Gesellschaft. Gut, das ist nun ein ganz anderes Problem, dass sich sicher nie vermeiden lassen wird. sowas wie geschlossene gesellschaften sind sicher nicht die regel. und wenn das in einem bestimmten lokal so sein sollte, kann man da ja drauf hinweisen. erstmal braucht es so ein projekt, noch dazu mit einer definierten schnittstelle um das realisieren zu koennen. ausserdem wird dann garantiert eine hohe redundanz entstehen, wenn das ganze separat ist. Fuer Gaststaetten gabe es sowas zumindest teilweise schon (mir faellt da gerade Kneipen-suche.com ein), in den GSoC-Projekten waren Vorschlaege in dieser Richtung. Aber bitte wo sollen die Redundanzen entstehen? eben, da alles in verschiedenen portalen gespeichert ist. kneipen-suche.com kann ich auch nicht offline nutzen. Die Gruende, warum ich sowas im Rahmen eines anderen Projekts sehen moechte sind vielfaeltig: - die Pflege dieser Daten sollte von Leuten gemacht werden koennen, die sich nicht erst in OSM und seine Datenstrukturen einarbeiten wollen. das ist ein generelles problem. da muss man an den frontends bzw. editoren arbeiten, dass sich das aendert... Diese Daten sind nicht 'offensichtlich' - wenn ich heute einen Stadtteil, einen Ort gemapped habe und dort auch immer wieder vorbei komme, dann habe ich ne Chance, neue Strassen, neue Geschaefte zu bemerken. Aenderungen an den Oeffnungszeiten bemerke ich aber nur, wenn ich ich das Lokal, den Laden, die Einrichtung gehe - wenn ueberhaupt. vielleicht werden ja auch mal wirte oder stammgaeste auf das projekt aufmerksam. und die haben allen grund, die daten aktuell zu halten. ausserdem hat jeder node einen timestamp. wenn da ein eintrag jetzt aelter ist, darf man halt nur unter vorbehalt darauf setzen. - Ich denke auch, dass die OSM-Datenstrukturen schlecht geeignet sind, beispielsweise Oeffnungszeiten so zu erfassen, dass sie maschinenlesbar sind. das ist bei vielen tags der fall. irgendwie gehts dann doch meistens. wenn man sowas aber gleich im hinblick auf die maschinenlesbarkeit entwickelt, dann sollte das kein problem sein. und die darstellung fuer den menschen ist sache z.B. der editoren. kein mensch sollte meiner meinung nach tags direkt editieren muessen, wenn er das nicht explizit so wuenscht. Ich kann mir da bliebig viele mehr oder weniger pathologische Sachen vorstellen, die aber sicherlich auch ihre Anwendungsfaelle haben (z.B. in Verbindung mit Schulferien, Feiertagen usw.). Hier bedarf es IMO anderer Datenstrukturen, und auch Leute, die globale Daten wie z.B. Feiertage und Ferientermine pflegen (wo koennten wir die in OSM beispielsweise einpflegen?). zum beispiel vernkuepft mit einem polygon fuer das jeweilige land... fuer mich gehoeren solche allgemeinen infos in die osm-datenbank. Dann aber *bitte* auch Fahrplaninformationen. Dann kann man beim Routing auch oeffentliche Verkehrsmittel mit einbeziehen. koennte man machen. muss man halt auch regelmaessig aktualisieren. wobei gerade das schon wieder eine hohe komplexitaet und sehr viele daten reinbringt. zumindest der mvv hier findet selber nicht immer die beste route; trotz vollstaendiger datenbank. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Berlin OSM Treffen?
Hallo, Wenn wir einen der hinteren Tage, also Do oder Fr, nehmen wuerden, dann koennten wir interessierte Berliner, die am Stand vorbeischauen, sogar gleich zum Treffen einladen. [...] Als alter Ur-Berliner würde ich die Herausforderung durchaus annehmen und etwas passendes in relativer Nähe suchen. Auch haben wir, wenn wir ein wenig warten, noch ein wenig Zeit, damit sich alle entsprechend einstellen können und sich den Abend freihalten können. Welchen Abend schlägst Du vor? Dienstag abend sind wir geschafft vom Aufbau. Mittwoch abend habe ich eine andere Verabredung. Donnerstag abend ist der offizielle Social Event vom LinuxTag. Freitag ist noch frei. Samstag nachmittag reise ich vermutlich ab. Also wenn es rein nach *mir* ginge, wuerde ich den Freitag vorschlagen, aber auch der Dienstag kaeme in Frage (da waere dann vermutlich etwas weniger Publikum von ausserhalb dabei, also eher eine nur-Berliner Veranstaltung, waere ja auch nicht falsch), oder der Mittwoch oder Samstag dann halt ohne mich (waere ja auch nicht falsch ;-)) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Speisekarten, Feiertage, Betriebsferien und dergleichen
1. Re: ?ffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo) (Michael Bergbauer) From: Michael Bergbauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oeffnungszeiten sind mitunter auch 'tagesaktuell'. Mir ists vor einiger Zeit passiert, dass ich an nem Lokal in dem ich Essen wollte freundlich aber sicher abgewiesen wurde: Geschlossene Gesellschaft. Gut, das ist nun ein ganz anderes Problem, dass sich sicher nie vermeiden lassen wird. klar würde sich das vermeiden lassen: wenn der Betreiber das in den großen Restaurant-Internet-Kalender (Teil von OSM? Derzeit wohl eher nicht) einträgt. Allerdings sind IMHO hier die Berechtigungen wichtig, weil sonst die Gefahr besteht, dass die Einträge der Mitbewerber manipuliert werden, d.h. jeder sollte nur selbst seine Speisekarte, Tagesmenu, Ruhetage, Kontaktdaten, Ferien, etc. eingeben können. Dafür ist OSM derzeit denkbar schlecht geeignet. Die Gruende, warum ich sowas im Rahmen eines anderen Projekts sehen moechte sind vielfaeltig: - die Pflege dieser Daten sollte von Leuten gemacht werden koennen, die sich nicht erst in OSM und seine Datenstrukturen einarbeiten wollen. Diese Daten sind nicht 'offensichtlich' - wenn ich heute einen Stadtteil, einen Ort gemapped habe und dort auch immer wieder vorbei komme, dann habe ich ne Chance, neue Strassen, neue Geschaefte zu bemerken. Aenderungen an den Oeffnungszeiten bemerke ich aber nur, wenn ich ich das Lokal, den Laden, die Einrichtung gehe - wenn ueberhaupt. Eine flaechendenkende Aktualitaet werden wir (auch bei den Oeffnungszeiten) nur erreichen koennen, wenn ein breiteres Publikum dran mitwirken kann als nur die Leute, die im Moment mit dem GPS durch die Gegend fahren/laufen und sich in das Tagging-Schema eingearbeitet haben und JOSM et al. bedienen koennen. Fuer die Pflege von Oeffnungszeiten und anderen allgemeinen Informationenen ueber POIs ist schlicht dieses Wissen IMO nicht erforderlich, Ich könnte mir durchaus vorstellen, dass es sowas wie JOSM-light (oder auch verschiedene davon für verschiedene Zielgruppen) gibt, wo die Ansicht weniger technisch ist, man die Wege nicht oder nur eingeschränkt manipulieren kann, und bei POIs nur die Tags. Dies könnte mit einem Interface/EIngabemaske geschehen, die den Nutzer gar nicht direkt mitbekommen lässt, dass er Keys erstellt und Werte setzt, so dass er dieses Hintergrundwissen nicht braucht und trotzdem nicht versehentlich was kaputt machen kann. und wenn wir wir alle halbe Jahr (beispielsweise) die von uns gemappten Orte wieder abklappern muessen um ne Aktualitaet der Oeffnungszeiten zu garantieren, dann halte ich das fuer unnoetigt im Idealfall sollten das die jeweiligen Betreiber selbst pflegen, nicht wir. Dazu muss OSM aber noch wichtiger werden. Wenn man zusätzlich das Datum der letzten Aktualisierung speichert, kann man auch selbst einschätzen, wie aktuell die Informationen sind und ggf. über die ebenfalls angegebene Telefonnr. nachfragen. - Ich denke auch, dass die OSM-Datenstrukturen schlecht geeignet sind, beispielsweise Oeffnungszeiten so zu erfassen, dass sie maschinenlesbar sind. Ich kann mir da bliebig viele mehr oder weniger pathologische Sachen vorstellen, die aber sicherlich auch ihre Anwendungsfaelle haben (z.B. in Verbindung mit Schulferien, Feiertagen usw.). Hier bedarf es IMO anderer Datenstrukturen, und auch Leute, die globale Daten wie z.B. Feiertage und Ferientermine pflegen (wo koennten wir die in OSM beispielsweise einpflegen?). naja, Feiertage zu pflegen halte ich für das kleinste Problem, die hat (fast) jeder Kalender fuer mich gehoeren solche allgemeinen infos in die osm-datenbank. Dann aber *bitte* auch Fahrplaninformationen. Dann kann man beim Routing auch oeffentliche Verkehrsmittel mit einbeziehen. Auf jeden Fall. Die Daten müssen ja nicht bei uns liegen (wäre sogar Unfug), aber die Daten von Bahn, Buslinien, ÖPNV, etc. inkl. aktueller Änderungen gibt es jetzt schon digital im Internet, keine Ahnung, ob sich da schon eine einheitliche Schnittstelle entwickelt hat, weltweit definitiv nicht, aber das wird vermutlich kommen (schön mit Norm und allem drum und dran). Und dann wird man diese Informationen auch beim Fussgängerrouting / Universalrouting einsetzen. Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Landesgrenze in JOSM
Hallo, ich bin dabei, ein bisschen im Nordwesten Wiens zu vervollständigen... dabei ist mir aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze dort überhaupt nicht passt. Wie bekomme ich diese in JOSM zum korrigieren? Das ganze Wiener Stadtgebiet kann ich nicht vom Server laden, weil es zu groß ist (sagt der Server). Andererseits sind beim Laden von Ausschnitten nur Linien dabei, die komplett in der Bounding-Box liegen (iirc). Wie gehe ich das an? tia Roland -- GMX startet ShortView.de. Hier findest Du Leute mit Deinen Interessen! Jetzt dabei sein: http://www.shortview.de/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Landesgrenze in JOSM
Hallo! 2008/4/24 Roland Spielhofer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hallo, ich bin dabei, ein bisschen im Nordwesten Wiens zu vervollständigen... dabei ist mir aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze dort überhaupt nicht passt. Andererseits sind beim Laden von Ausschnitten nur Linien dabei, die komplett in der Bounding-Box liegen (iirc). Wie gehe ich das an? Wundert mich. M.W. wird jeder Weg geladen, der die Bounding Box schneidet ... Jürgen ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Landesgrenze in JOSM
Am Donnerstag, 24. April 2008 20:34:03 schrieb Juergen Buchner: Hallo! 2008/4/24 Roland Spielhofer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hallo, ich bin dabei, ein bisschen im Nordwesten Wiens zu vervollständigen... dabei ist mir aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze dort überhaupt nicht passt. Andererseits sind beim Laden von Ausschnitten nur Linien dabei, die komplett in der Bounding-Box liegen (iirc). Wie gehe ich das an? Wundert mich. M.W. wird jeder Weg geladen, der die Bounding Box schneidet ... Jürgen Es wird jeder Weg geladen, der mindestens einen Punkt innerhalb der Bounding Box hat. Ein Weg könnte die Box also schneiden und trotzdem nicht geladen werden, wenn keiner seiner Punkte innerhalb liegen. -Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Landesgrenze in JOSM
Original-Nachricht Datum: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 20:34:03 +0200 Von: Juergen Buchner [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Openstreetmap allgemeines in Deutsch talk-de@openstreetmap.org Betreff: Re: [Talk-de] Landesgrenze in JOSM Hallo! 2008/4/24 Roland Spielhofer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hallo, ich bin dabei, ein bisschen im Nordwesten Wiens zu vervollständigen... dabei ist mir aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze dort überhaupt nicht passt. Andererseits sind beim Laden von Ausschnitten nur Linien dabei, die komplett in der Bounding-Box liegen (iirc). Wie gehe ich das an? Wundert mich. M.W. wird jeder Weg geladen, der die Bounding Box schneidet ... Jürgen Sorry, hab's gerade gesehen, die Grenze ist eh da... *tomatenaufdenaugenhab* -- GMX startet ShortView.de. Hier findest Du Leute mit Deinen Interessen! Jetzt dabei sein: http://www.shortview.de/[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Landesgrenze in JOSM
Hallo, ich bin dabei, ein bisschen im Nordwesten Wiens zu vervollständigen... dabei ist mir aufgefallen, dass die Landesgrenze dort überhaupt nicht passt. Wie bekomme ich diese in JOSM zum korrigieren? Das ganze Wiener Stadtgebiet kann ich nicht vom Server laden, weil es zu groß ist (sagt der Server). Andererseits sind beim Laden von Ausschnitten nur Linien dabei, die komplett in der Bounding-Box liegen (iirc). Wie gehe ich das an? Nein, die API gibt dir alle Ways, von denen mindestens ein Node im Ausschnitt liegt, komplett. Ich wuerde an Deiner Stelle entweder mit OsmXAPI oder mithilfe eines Oesterreich Extrakts von download.geofabrik.de und anschliessender Filterung erstmal ein .osm-File erzeugen, in dem *nur* die betr. Grenze ist. Dann reparierst Du das und laedst es hoch. Dabei ist zwar die Gefahr, dass Du Aenderungen ueberschreibst, die andere seit Deinem Runterladen an der Grenze gemacht haben, aber wenn Du nicht wochenlang troedelst, passt das schon. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] OePNV Haltestellen
Hi, mir ist die Idee gekommen, den örtlichen OePNV-Anbieter mal zu fragen, ob der die Daten aller Haltestellen zur Verfuegung stellen wuerde. Hat einer von euch damit Erfahrungen ? Hier ist der Link zu deren Tool, http://avv.de/web/haupteins/busspur-download.php?schriftgrad=76 Ich weiss nicht, ob andere Verkehrsverbuende so etwas anbieten, oder die Daten in andere Form anbieten. Denn das wuerde uns doch helfen und für die Verkehrsverbuende wäre es praktisch, da sie so mehr Kunden erhielten. Schöne Abend noch. Henry ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] GPS für Einsteiger - Entscheidung
Hallo zusammen, vielen Dank für die vielen Antworten und die guten Tipps. Ich denke, ich werde mir ein Garmin Vista HCx oder Garmin Legend HCx besorgen (wobei ich eher zum Legend tendiere). Vielen Dank noch mal und bis demnächst :o) Gruß aus Hamburg, Bjoern -- Viele Grueße / Best regards Bjoern Jensen web: http://www.jughh.org ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neues Worldfile vom 23.4.08
Hallo, wieder ist mir etwas aufgefallen, was auf den Garminkarten nicht so dargestellt wird, wie man hoffen würde. Es handelt sich hier um highway=*, area=yes, was ab und zu für Plätze benutzt wird, wie hier beschrieben: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:area Wie machbar ist das? Unterstützen die Garmingeräte solche Flächen? Dass man bei z.B. Autobahnen Probleme hätte kann ich nachvollziehen. Aber gerade Fussgängerplätze mit highway=pedestrian sehen leider nicht so toll aus, wie man hier auf Mapnik sehen kann: http://geo.topf.org/comparison/index.html?mt0=mapnikmt1=tahlon=-6.2419295lat=53.3487964z=17 Dermot On 24/04/2008, Carsten Schwede [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo, So, jetzt sind wieder die richtigen Elemente in der Karte vorhanden. Ihr könnt loslegen. :-) -- Viele Gruesse Computerteddy ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] neues Worldfile vom 23.4.08
Hi, Wie machbar ist das? Unterstützen die Garmingeräte solche Flächen? Garmingeräte schon, aber mkgmap konnte - zumindest als ich das letzte Mal damit herumgespielt habe, keine Mehrfachtags verarbeiten. Du konntest also *entweder* highway=pedestrian *oder* area=yes auf das Gerät bringen. Man konnte sich also aussuchen, was einem wichtiger ist :-) . Aber vielleicht hat mkgmap ja inzwischen dazugelernt. Gruß, ce ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Oeffnungszeiten (hier: Zoo)
Am Donnerstag, 24. April 2008 23:02:45 schrieb Sven Rautenberg: Ansonsten gibts irgendwann noch komplette enzyklopädische Artikel zu jedem getaggten Baum neben der Landstraße, inklusive Liste der Fahrer, die sich schon im denselben gewickelt haben. Wobei ich glaube, dass es bei dem einen oder anderen Zeitgenossen vielleicht hilfreich wäre, wenn das Navi Kreuze an die Strecke pinseln würde. ;-( Gruß Andreas ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-cz] Cyklotrasy - Praha
2008/4/23 Vaclav Stepan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ahoj, snazim se vyhodnotit, zda a jak by bylo realne pouzit OSM pro vektorove prekresleni cyklomapy Prahy z prahounakole.cz. Ahoj, Andy Allan generuje cyklistickou variantu OSM: http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/osm/?zoom=11lat=6460182.23025lon=1604622.43864layers=B00 O mapovani cyklotras se taky snazim. Konkretne me zajima ten problem, ze naplanovana trasa neni v terenu dobre vyznacena, takze se ztratite. Priklad jsem zachytil u libenskych lodenic, kde jedina smerovka A25 je na odbocce z A2, ale ve smeru z Elznicova nam. smerovka chybi, takze jsem vyznacil jenom pulku trasy: http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/osm/?zoom=15lat=6464658.57275lon=1610761.28614layers=B00 Podobne chybi znaceni 8100 v Boranovicich: http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/osm/?zoom=13lat=6474552.38845lon=1616030.66264layers=B00 Kresleni cyklotrasy ulicemi: Rozdelit puvodni. Pry maji od nedavna fungovat i nejake relace, ale jeste jsem to nezkousel. Vizualizace Dokud se drzim ?cn_ref tagu, bude to korektne zobrazovat international cycling map a jde z toho delat cyklomapa pro Garmin. Tohle vypada v pohode (zatim). Ale: Cyklomapa na prahounakole.cz pouziva spoutu tagu v duchu tady je to o tlamu, slez z kola a podobne. Budu-li chtit custom ikonky na mape, musim si rozbehnout mapnik ci osmarender, nebo je protlacit do oficialni mapy. Tak? Jo. S osmarenderem muzu trochu poradit, i kdyz nove ikonky jeste neumim. Mapnik jsem nedavno zkousel, ale zadrhnul jsem se na nejake trivialite s postgresem. Krome vizualizace to chce hlavne dohodnout znackovani. Routing (osobne neresim, smeruju hlavou) Dal - prislo by vam nekomu zajimave na necem takovem pripadne spolupracovat? Jo, jo, hura! Martin ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] tagovani a renderovani
Na planet.osm opravdu ne, ale na czechia.osm je to ok. Napriklad vytazeni ref vsech silnic trva asi 10 sekund a 800mb ram. Urcite to by slo udelat rychleji, ale XSLT je vysokourovnovy jazyk, takze se to da napsat opravdu rychle. On 4/24/08, BH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: XSLT je dobre na mensi kusy, ale na cely planet.osm je nepouzitelne, protoze XSLT parsery si natahaji do pameti cele XML a na nem pak tyeprve pousteji transformace (uz jsem to zkousel a i kdyz jsem mel jenom celou ceskou republiku (cca 100mb) a 1 gb pameti tak to neslo) Pokud parsovat XML tak doporucuju necim jinym nez XSLT (nejaky SAX parser treba nebo neco jednoducheho v perlu :) Martin On 4/23/08, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tento nastroj neco takoveho umi: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Osmosis Umi vyfiltrovat pouze cesty, ktere maji zadane tagy a jejich nody. Pak je take mozne omezit se jen na urcitou oblast. Univerzalnejsi moznost je pouzit xslt transformaci, ktera potreba data vytahne. Ale pro tvuj pripad by to nemelo byt nutne. On 4/23/08, Vaclav Stepan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: U cehoz mne napada - pokud budu chtit delat dotazy na OSM typu ¨co vsechno nakreslil tenhle clovek v te a te oblasti lze to nejak jednodusseji, nez stahnout si OSM a v te to hledat? Minim neco v duchu SQL dotazu primo proti OSM databazi... Vasek On 4/23/08, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vytvorena mapa se nema ulozit do souboru, ale odeslat na osm server (File - Upload to OSM). Predtim nez si zacal kreslit si mel zase stahnout osm data (File - Download from OSM), aby si videl co uz je v upravovany oblasti hotovy. Jinak nebylo by mozna na skodu poslat svoje uzivatelsky jmeno a co jsi upravoval, aby jsme se mohli podivat jestli je to ok. On 4/23/08, BikerOnly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jo toho jsem si bohuzel vsiml, az kdyz jsem vlezl do souboru. a co s tim pak dale? ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] tagovani a renderovani
Jeste to upresnim. Behem tech 10 sekund se nejenom vytahnou silnice, ale take se zkontroluje, jestli silnice se stejnym jmenem existuje v databance rsd. Takze to s tou efektivitou xslt neni az tak hrozny. On 4/24/08, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Na planet.osm opravdu ne, ale na czechia.osm je to ok. Napriklad vytazeni ref vsech silnic trva asi 10 sekund a 800mb ram. Urcite to by slo udelat rychleji, ale XSLT je vysokourovnovy jazyk, takze se to da napsat opravdu rychle. On 4/24/08, BH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: XSLT je dobre na mensi kusy, ale na cely planet.osm je nepouzitelne, protoze XSLT parsery si natahaji do pameti cele XML a na nem pak tyeprve pousteji transformace (uz jsem to zkousel a i kdyz jsem mel jenom celou ceskou republiku (cca 100mb) a 1 gb pameti tak to neslo) Pokud parsovat XML tak doporucuju necim jinym nez XSLT (nejaky SAX parser treba nebo neco jednoducheho v perlu :) Martin On 4/23/08, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tento nastroj neco takoveho umi: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Osmosis Umi vyfiltrovat pouze cesty, ktere maji zadane tagy a jejich nody. Pak je take mozne omezit se jen na urcitou oblast. Univerzalnejsi moznost je pouzit xslt transformaci, ktera potreba data vytahne. Ale pro tvuj pripad by to nemelo byt nutne. On 4/23/08, Vaclav Stepan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: U cehoz mne napada - pokud budu chtit delat dotazy na OSM typu ¨co vsechno nakreslil tenhle clovek v te a te oblasti lze to nejak jednodusseji, nez stahnout si OSM a v te to hledat? Minim neco v duchu SQL dotazu primo proti OSM databazi... Vasek On 4/23/08, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vytvorena mapa se nema ulozit do souboru, ale odeslat na osm server (File - Upload to OSM). Predtim nez si zacal kreslit si mel zase stahnout osm data (File - Download from OSM), aby si videl co uz je v upravovany oblasti hotovy. Jinak nebylo by mozna na skodu poslat svoje uzivatelsky jmeno a co jsi upravoval, aby jsme se mohli podivat jestli je to ok. On 4/23/08, BikerOnly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jo toho jsem si bohuzel vsiml, az kdyz jsem vlezl do souboru. a co s tim pak dale? ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] Mapování Plzně
To by me zajimalo - ale jak mam ty lidi kontaktovat? Vcera jsem se na to ptal, ale nikdo nezareagoval - nejak se vsichni probrali po zime a je to tu jako x-chat :) On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:15:58 +0200, Kubajz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nic Ti nebrani :] Jukni do osmarenderu na jmena lidi, co delaji v podobne oblasti a napis kdyztak primo jim. Pokud to tam ale znas, tak neni problem urcite upravovat i veci, ktere nakreslil nekdo jiny. K Jakub Suchý napsal(a): Jasne, ja jsem myslel, ze bych mapoval spise casti mesta jako jsou Bozkov, Cernice, Lobzy atp ... proste ty okrajove casti, ktere chybi kolem centra. Popripade oblasti smerem na jih, kde mam chatu. dwiggy 2008/4/23 Kubajz [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ja obcas kdyz jsem v Plzni, tak neco zmapuju. Obvykle si cmaru jmena ulic do schematicke mapy a plnim to do OSM. Potom jsem zmapoval celou cestu z Plzne do Kralovic a dal na statovku do KV. Od Kralovic mam babicku, takze jsou tam i nektere obce propojeny silnicemi tretich trid. K Jakub Suchý napsal(a): Zdravím, rád bych zmapoval některé části Plzně a okolí. Tak si chci zeptat zda již někdo z vás na nějakých větších oblastech nedělá, abych to neprováděl zbytečně ? dwiggy ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz -- Jakub Suchý E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 349-470-832 ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz __ Informace od NOD32 3050 (20080423) __ Tato zprava byla proverena antivirovym systemem NOD32. http://www.nod32.cz -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] Mapování Plzně
Nevim jakym zpusobem se uzivatele daji vyhledavat, ale kdyz zadas adresu ve formatu: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jmeno uzivatele, treba: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jttt tak mas moznost poslat uzivateli zpravu. Jmeno cloveka co naposledy upravoval way/node vidis v josm, v potlachu uvidis jmena vsech uzivatelu. On 4/24/08, Michal Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To by me zajimalo - ale jak mam ty lidi kontaktovat? Vcera jsem se na to ptal, ale nikdo nezareagoval - nejak se vsichni probrali po zime a je to tu jako x-chat :) On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:15:58 +0200, Kubajz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nic Ti nebrani :] Jukni do osmarenderu na jmena lidi, co delaji v podobne oblasti a napis kdyztak primo jim. Pokud to tam ale znas, tak neni problem urcite upravovat i veci, ktere nakreslil nekdo jiny. K Jakub Suchý napsal(a): Jasne, ja jsem myslel, ze bych mapoval spise casti mesta jako jsou Bozkov, Cernice, Lobzy atp ... proste ty okrajove casti, ktere chybi kolem centra. Popripade oblasti smerem na jih, kde mam chatu. dwiggy 2008/4/23 Kubajz [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ja obcas kdyz jsem v Plzni, tak neco zmapuju. Obvykle si cmaru jmena ulic do schematicke mapy a plnim to do OSM. Potom jsem zmapoval celou cestu z Plzne do Kralovic a dal na statovku do KV. Od Kralovic mam babicku, takze jsou tam i nektere obce propojeny silnicemi tretich trid. K Jakub Suchý napsal(a): Zdravím, rád bych zmapoval některé části Plzně a okolí. Tak si chci zeptat zda již někdo z vás na nějakých větších oblastech nedělá, abych to neprováděl zbytečně ? dwiggy ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz -- Jakub Suchý E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 349-470-832 ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz __ Informace od NOD32 3050 (20080423) __ Tato zprava byla proverena antivirovym systemem NOD32. http://www.nod32.cz -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] Mapování Plzně
Jmeno cloveka co naposledy upravoval way/node vidis v josm, v potlachu uvidis jmena vsech uzivatelu. Potlatch: H jako history. Webova mapa: slabe sede pismo v nejvetsim zvetseni varianty Osmarender. Martin ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] Cyklotrasy - Praha
Ahoj, tak to jsou oboje výborné zprávy :-) Jdu si zkusit ujasnit chaos v Pražském značení... Vašek On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 7:31 AM, Jachym Cepicky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ahoj, Vaclav Stepan píše v St 23. 04. 2008 v 23:52 +0200: 3. Routing Tady pro mne zacina terra-incognita. Data - asi bych uvazoval routovani jen po cyklotrasach, s tim, ze z ?cn ways by se vygenerovaly routovaci nody a nad vzniklym grafem by neco hledalo cesty. V podstate to vypada trivialne. Jenze: WWW interface: Nenasel jsem _nic_ jako pouzitelnou implementaci routovani nad OSM daty, vypada to, ze jedina snaha je traveling salesman. Nejake jine napady? Garmin: Personal verze cgpsmapperu umi generovat routovatelnou mapu (jak ale vytvorit routovaci nody?) Neco bych mohl zbastlit. Viz http://tourist.posazavi.com/cz/mapvylet.asp (snad to chodi ;-) IMHO je to dobrej napad. J -- Jachym Cepicky e-mail: jachym.cepicky gmail com URL: http://les-ejk.cz GPG: http://www.les-ejk.cz/pgp/jachym_cepicky-gpg.pub ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] Mapování Plzně
Jmeno znam, ale nevedel jsem jak kontaktovat - dik moc, jdu na to :) On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:54:15 +0200, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nevim jakym zpusobem se uzivatele daji vyhledavat, ale kdyz zadas adresu ve formatu: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jmeno uzivatele, treba: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jttt tak mas moznost poslat uzivateli zpravu. Jmeno cloveka co naposledy upravoval way/node vidis v josm, v potlachu uvidis jmena vsech uzivatelu. On 4/24/08, Michal Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To by me zajimalo - ale jak mam ty lidi kontaktovat? Vcera jsem se na to ptal, ale nikdo nezareagoval - nejak se vsichni probrali po zime a je to tu jako x-chat :) On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 00:15:58 +0200, Kubajz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nic Ti nebrani :] Jukni do osmarenderu na jmena lidi, co delaji v podobne oblasti a napis kdyztak primo jim. Pokud to tam ale znas, tak neni problem urcite upravovat i veci, ktere nakreslil nekdo jiny. K Jakub Suchý napsal(a): Jasne, ja jsem myslel, ze bych mapoval spise casti mesta jako jsou Bozkov, Cernice, Lobzy atp ... proste ty okrajove casti, ktere chybi kolem centra. Popripade oblasti smerem na jih, kde mam chatu. dwiggy 2008/4/23 Kubajz [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ja obcas kdyz jsem v Plzni, tak neco zmapuju. Obvykle si cmaru jmena ulic do schematicke mapy a plnim to do OSM. Potom jsem zmapoval celou cestu z Plzne do Kralovic a dal na statovku do KV. Od Kralovic mam babicku, takze jsou tam i nektere obce propojeny silnicemi tretich trid. K Jakub Suchý napsal(a): Zdravím, rád bych zmapoval některé části Plzně a okolí. Tak si chci zeptat zda již někdo z vás na nějakých větších oblastech nedělá, abych to neprováděl zbytečně ? dwiggy ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz -- Jakub Suchý E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 349-470-832 ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz __ Informace od NOD32 3050 (20080423) __ Tato zprava byla proverena antivirovym systemem NOD32. http://www.nod32.cz -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz __ Informace od NOD32 3050 (20080423) __ Tato zprava byla proverena antivirovym systemem NOD32. http://www.nod32.cz -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] Cyklotrasy - Praha
Ahoj! snazim se vyhodnotit, zda a jak by bylo realne pouzit OSM pro vektorove prekresleni cyklomapy Prahy z prahounakole.cz. Zatim jsem narazil na nasledujici otazky (a mozna reseni). Pac bych nerad zpusobil nejaky zbytecny chaos (resp. nezadouci zmeny dat), prosim o komentare: 1. *Kresleni cyklotrasy ulicemi:* Lze primo pouzit prinejmensim tagy ?cn_ref, bicycle=yes, teoreticky lze pridat dalsi tagy (treba path element cost). To je v pohode. Ale: spoustu ulic je kresleno jako jedna dlouha way. Kdyz tudy chci vest cyklotrasu, mohu bud rozdelit puvodni way, nebo vest dalsi way nad ni, rozdelit. 3. *Routing *Tady pro mne zacina terra-incognita. Data - asi bych uvazoval routovani jen po cyklotrasach, s tim, ze z ?cn ways by se vygenerovaly routovaci nody a nad vzniklym grafem by neco hledalo cesty. V podstate to vypada trivialne. Jenze: WWW interface: Nenasel jsem _nic_ jako pouzitelnou implementaci routovani nad OSM daty, vypada to, ze jedina snaha je traveling salesman. Nejake jine napady? No, nejaky routovaci projekty jsou, ale... co routeplanner -- nebo jak se to jmenovalo. Takova stara vec, linuxova, z prikazovy radky... Dal - prislo by vam nekomu zajimave na necem takovem pripadne spolupracovat? Prijde vam nekomu, ze mi unika nejaky drobny aspekt, kvuli kteremu to je cele hovadina? Me se to libi, a asi i o spolupraci by se dalo uvazovat :-). -- (english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek (cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] tagovani a renderovani
Mozna zalezi i na tom, jaky se pouzije XSLT parser. Ja jsem s czechii a vytahavanim silnic na 1 GB ram pohorel. Tak jsem si napsal vlastni radoby-xml-parser v perlu, navic v nem sly udelat lepe i veci na vystup posli jen ty nody, ktere jsou nekde referencovane :) Martin On 4/24/08, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Na planet.osm opravdu ne, ale na czechia.osm je to ok. Napriklad vytazeni ref vsech silnic trva asi 10 sekund a 800mb ram. Urcite to by slo udelat rychleji, ale XSLT je vysokourovnovy jazyk, takze se to da napsat opravdu rychle. ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [Talk-cz] tagovani a renderovani
Pouzivam saxon8. Jinak vyber referencovanych nodu je snadny:
xsl:copy-of select=key('nodeKey', $ways/nd/@ref)/
kde $way je promena se seznamem cest, ktery se predem nejak
vyfiltrovali a nodeKey je index definovany takto:
xsl:key name=nodeKey match=//osm/node use=@id/
Stejne hlavni duvod pro pouzivam XSLT je, ze mam obcas chut pohrat si
s nejakym netypickym jazykem :-)
On 4/24/08, BH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Mozna zalezi i na tom, jaky se pouzije XSLT parser. Ja jsem s czechii
a vytahavanim silnic na 1 GB ram pohorel. Tak jsem si napsal vlastni
radoby-xml-parser v perlu, navic v nem sly udelat lepe i veci na
vystup posli jen ty nody, ktere jsou nekde referencovane :)
Martin
On 4/24/08, Jiri Klement [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Na planet.osm opravdu ne, ale na czechia.osm je to ok. Napriklad
vytazeni ref vsech silnic trva asi 10 sekund a 800mb ram. Urcite to by
slo udelat rychleji, ale XSLT je vysokourovnovy jazyk, takze se to da
napsat opravdu rychle.
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Re : Bonjour a tous,
2008/4/23 Arnaud CORBET [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tout dépends de ce comment la ville a réalisé le dit document: tres bon message, merci pour toute cette information synthétique. Je pense qu'il faudra faire la synthèse sur le wiki. J'ai pour ma part réalisée cette lettre que l'on pourra compléter avec tes éléments : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Lettre_aux_elus Il faudrait aussi créer un lien sur la page d'accueil du wiki francais. En fait cette page existe (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/WikiProject_France), mais je ne trouvais pas la facon d'y aller depuis la page d'accueil :-( Main Page | Français | France (Le portail OSM pour la France.) honte a moi ... Je vais donc placer le lien dans la journée sur WikiProject_France. ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
[OSM-talk-fr] [Rappel] 3ère Réunion Franco phone
Bonjour, juste un petit rappel pour la prochaine réunion francophone, qui se déroulera le mercredi 7 mai à 21h, toujours sur le channel IRC. On a toujours pas d'ordre du jour, alors, pensez a en ajouter ;) : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/3%C3%A8me_R%C3%A9union_Francophone_IRC ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
[OSM-talk-fr] Cadastre
L'utilisation du cadastre est revenue deux fois dans des discutions. Afin de clarifier les choses, j'ouvre un sujet dédié. Pour rappel, le cadastre est consultable gratuitement en ligne à l'adresse cadastre.gouv.fr Licence : Arnaud CORBET a dit dans un récent message que la licence du cadastre donne droit au travail dérivé. Sous quelles conditions s'applique se droit (source, distribuabilité...)? Le site cadastre.gouv.fr indique que tout document reprenant des extraits du cadastre doit citer :source : Direction générale des impôts – Cadastre ; mise à jour : . Cependant ils ne précisent pas pour le cas du travail dérivé. Quelqu'un pourrait-il nous confirmer l'autorisation du travail dérivé. Un texte de licence écrit serait parfait. Comme dit dans le précédent fil l'utilisation d'un tag source=cadastre serait utile. Utilisabilité : Le site cadastre.gouv.fr permet d'exporter des fichiers des point qui pourraient remplacer le travail par gps. Quelqu'un connaît-il le format des coordonnés utilisés par le cadastre ? Par exemple pour Lyon on a des coordonnés du type (X=793634,Y=88915) Je suis prêt écrire un utilitaire pour permettre la conversion si quelqu'un m'explique ces coordonnés. Voila, bonne journée à tous. ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Here be dragons
2008/4/24 murphy2712. nospam [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Je ne suis pas sûr que ce soit utile de dessiner dessus car seuls les zooms 12 sont régénérés automatiquement. A mon avis une simple demande de rendu en zoom 8 devrait suffir. j'en lance un pour voir avec une de mes machines... ça ira vite. 2008/4/24 Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Effectivement Osmarender debloque alors que Mapnik est bon. J'ai dessiné une grosse étoile pour forcer la réécriture de la tile. A supprimer des que cela sera corrigé. murphy2712.nospam a écrit : Bien qu'il n'y ai rien du tout dans cette zone, je pense qu'il y a un problème sur une tuile car j'ai beau rafraichir il y a toujours un carré bleu unknown type : http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=48.37671722836219lon=0.6014387919806821zoom=11layers=B000F000F c'est à dire plus précisément : http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/Tiles/tile.php/11/1027/708.pnghttp://dev.openstreetmap.org/%7Eojw/Tiles/tile.php/11/1027/708.png Ça semble être Osmarender qui a mal généré cette tuile, en écrivant lui-même ce texte. Vu que c'est un zoom 12, il devrait se mettre à jour si je demande un calcul sur la zone zoom8 ? ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Cadastre
Salut, Quelqu'un connaît-il le format des coordonnés utilisés par le cadastre ? Par exemple pour Lyon on a des coordonnés du type (X=793634,Y=88915) Je suis prêt écrire un utilitaire pour permettre la conversion si quelqu'un m'explique ces coordonnés. gis=# SELECT AsText(TRANSFORM(way, 27582)) from planet_osm_point WHERE name = 'Lyon'; astext -- POINT(794108.022109034 2087218.49847647) (1 ligne) Ca ressemble à du Lambert II étendu (SRID:27582) en tous cas (bon, j'explique pas la différence sur les Y). L'utilitaire proj permet de convertir ca très bien ;-) -- Pierre ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Cadastre
Vincent MEURISSE a écrit : L'utilisation du cadastre est revenue deux fois dans des discutions. Afin de clarifier les choses, j'ouvre un sujet dédié. Pour rappel, le cadastre est consultable gratuitement en ligne à l'adresse cadastre.gouv.fr Licence : Arnaud CORBET a dit dans un récent message que la licence du cadastre donne droit au travail dérivé. Sous quelles conditions s'applique se droit (source, distribuabilité...)? Le site cadastre.gouv.fr indique que tout document reprenant des extraits du cadastre doit citer :source : Direction générale des impôts – Cadastre ; mise à jour : . Cependant ils ne précisent pas pour le cas du travail dérivé. Quelqu'un pourrait-il nous confirmer l'autorisation du travail dérivé. Un texte de licence écrit serait parfait. Comme dit dans le précédent fil l'utilisation d'un tag source=cadastre serait utile. une source de quoi ? - de la partie géométrique de l'objet (disons un tronçon de rue) - de la partie sémantique de l'objet (son nom ?) Les données cadastrales mises en ligne ne sont une source fiable (c'est-à-dire sourçable) ni pour l'un ni pour l'autre. - si la voie n'est pas cadastrée, pourquoi mettre un lien vers le site du cadastre pour des données qu'ils ne fournissent pas (un vrai travail dérivé) ? - si la voie est cadastrée comment déterminer ou commence et où finit la voie ? (encore un travail dérivé). Quelle est la source pour déterminer que la voie machin s'appelle truc à un droit et bidule à un autre endroit ? Tout cela pour dire que je penche pour une mise en notes de l'inspiration de la création de données nouvelles (genre selon plan cadastral du mois/année). Je crois, personnellement, qu'aucun droit patrimonial (au sens de la loi sur le droit d'auteur et droits voisins) ne peut être réclamé par l'administration fiscale sur des objets dont elle n'a pas vocation a assuré ni le suivi, ni l'exactitude, ni la pertinence. Sa licence d'utilisation ne vise qu'à protéger, à juste raison, l'investissement consenti par le contribuable pour l'établissement d'une base de données géométrique et littérale (invisible du grand public pour raison de confidentialité sur les données nominatives) de la propriété foncière dont la parcelle cadastrale (ou plus exactement la subdivision fiscale) est l'unité de base (et de compte). Utilisabilité : Le site cadastre.gouv.fr permet d'exporter des fichiers des point qui pourraient remplacer le travail par gps. Quelqu'un connaît-il le format des coordonnés utilisés par le cadastre ? Par exemple pour Lyon on a des coordonnés du type (X=793634,Y=88915) Je suis prêt écrire un utilitaire pour permettre la conversion si quelqu'un m'explique ces coordonnés. Tout à fait d'accord avec le premier point (surtout quand on ne dispose pas de GPS ou quand ce GPS montre ses limites (au hasard, un voie en milieu urbain dense avec des bâtis hauts des 2 côtés). Pour faire court, on va dire que les résultats sont complémentaires en fonction du milieu à étudier tout en gardant à l'esprit que le mieux (et nécessaire) est d'aller sur le terrain confirmer l'exactitude des données (géométrique et sémantique). Pour la seconde partie, voir mon second mail (en fait le premier par ordre d'écriture). Voila, bonne journée à tous. Bonsoir, Denis ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Here be dragons
Bon la tile a un smou je supprime mon sapin de noel. Steven Le Roux a écrit : 2008/4/24 murphy2712. nospam [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Je ne suis pas sûr que ce soit utile de dessiner dessus car seuls les zooms 12 sont régénérés automatiquement. A mon avis une simple demande de rendu en zoom 8 devrait suffir. j'en lance un pour voir avec une de mes machines... ça ira vite. 2008/4/24 Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Effectivement Osmarender debloque alors que Mapnik est bon. J'ai dessiné une grosse étoile pour forcer la réécriture de la tile. A supprimer des que cela sera corrigé. murphy2712.nospam a écrit : Bien qu'il n'y ai rien du tout dans cette zone, je pense qu'il y a un problème sur une tuile car j'ai beau rafraichir il y a toujours un carré bleu "unknown type" : http://www.informationfreeway.org/?lat=48.37671722836219lon=0.6014387919806821zoom=11layers=B000F000F c'est à dire plus précisément : http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/Tiles/tile.php/11/1027/708.png Ça semble être Osmarender qui a mal généré cette tuile, en écrivant lui-même ce texte. Vu que c'est un zoom 12, il devrait se mettre à jour si je demande un calcul sur la zone zoom8 ? ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr -- Steven Le Roux Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
[OSM-talk-fr] Re : Cadastre
La licence du cadastre avait été discutée il y a quelques temps, et il était clair pour moi qu'elle autorisait jusqu'à l'exploitation commerciale de documents enrichis basés sur le cadastre. Grosso modo c'était vous ne vendez pas le cadastre en l'état, c'est nous qui nous en chargeons, mais si vous faites un vrai travail en partant du cadastre, vous pouvez le vendre Ainsi dans la rubrique questions/réponses on trouve entres autres: - Les sociétés privées peuvent-elles diffuser le plan cadastral? - Non, mais elles peuvent être autorisées à diffuser un produit composite réalisé à partir du plan cadastral à condition de mentionner la source et le millésime d'actualité du fonds de plan cadastral. Nous notre objectif est de prendre le cadastre en fond de carte pour suivre le traçé des rues, et de repomper honteusement les noms des rues. Ce n'est pas un document composite que nous réalisons, c'est un document autre, un document dérivé. A vrai dire il ne reste rien du document original dans sa fonction première: pas la moindre parcelle dont le tracé, la surface, ou le numéro soit repris, seules des informations secondaires pour l'administration fiscale s'y retrouvent. Bref, même si on vendait un OSM intégralement calqué sur le cadastre, on n'entrerait pas en concurrence avec le commerce des planches cadastrales. Donc si on a le droit de diffuser et vendre un produit composite, rien ne s'oppose à ce qu'on diffuse et vende un lointain dérivé ayant une tout autre fonction que le fichier cadastral. La seule exigence est de mentionner la source pour vendre un produit composite? Mentionnons là pour un produit dérivé, et on aura royalement la paix. Si on commence à utiliser frequement le cadastre à la faveur d'un plug-in pour JOSM, faire en sorte qu'il intègre automatiquement cette info, ou en cas d'utilisation vraiment massive le plus simple (et le moins consommateur d'octets) serait peut-être de glisser un blabla dans le wiki annoncant que la carte de France est partiellement basée sur le cadastre... - Message d'origine De : Denis [EMAIL PROTECTED] À : Discussions sur OSM en francais talk-fr@openstreetmap.org Envoyé le : Jeudi, 24 Avril 2008, 21h40mn 12s Objet : Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Cadastre Vincent MEURISSE a écrit : L'utilisation du cadastre est revenue deux fois dans des discutions. Afin de clarifier les choses, j'ouvre un sujet dédié. Pour rappel, le cadastre est consultable gratuitement en ligne à l'adresse cadastre.gouv.fr Licence : Arnaud CORBET a dit dans un récent message que la licence du cadastre donne droit au travail dérivé. Sous quelles conditions s'applique se droit (source, distribuabilité...)? Le site cadastre.gouv.fr indique que tout document reprenant des extraits du cadastre doit citer :source : Direction générale des impôts – Cadastre ; mise à jour : . Cependant ils ne précisent pas pour le cas du travail dérivé. Quelqu'un pourrait-il nous confirmer l'autorisation du travail dérivé. Un texte de licence écrit serait parfait. Comme dit dans le précédent fil l'utilisation d'un tag source=cadastre serait utile. une source de quoi ? - de la partie géométrique de l'objet (disons un tronçon de rue) - de la partie sémantique de l'objet (son nom ?) Les données cadastrales mises en ligne ne sont une source fiable (c'est-à-dire sourçable) ni pour l'un ni pour l'autre. - si la voie n'est pas cadastrée, pourquoi mettre un lien vers le site du cadastre pour des données qu'ils ne fournissent pas (un vrai travail dérivé) ? - si la voie est cadastrée comment déterminer ou commence et où finit la voie ? (encore un travail dérivé). Quelle est la source pour déterminer que la voie machin s'appelle truc à un droit et bidule à un autre endroit ? Tout cela pour dire que je penche pour une mise en notes de l'inspiration de la création de données nouvelles (genre selon plan cadastral du mois/année). Je crois, personnellement, qu'aucun droit patrimonial (au sens de la loi sur le droit d'auteur et droits voisins) ne peut être réclamé par l'administration fiscale sur des objets dont elle n'a pas vocation a assuré ni le suivi, ni l'exactitude, ni la pertinence. Sa licence d'utilisation ne vise qu'à protéger, à juste raison, l'investissement consenti par le contribuable pour l'établissement d'une base de données géométrique et littérale (invisible du grand public pour raison de confidentialité sur les données nominatives) de la propriété foncière dont la parcelle cadastrale (ou plus exactement la subdivision fiscale) est l'unité de base (et de compte). __ Do You Yahoo!? En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protection possible contre les messages non sollicités http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] source(s)
Le cadastre est-il suffisement préçis pour l'utiliser en tant que source géométrique ? Je pose la question car je n'y connais rien, mais si la réponse est non alors un tag du genre ferait l'affaire : source=GPS;cadastre (géométrie réalisée avec GPS, noms pris sur le cadastre) source=Yahoo;cadastre (géométrie réalisée avec Yahoo, noms pris sur le cadastre) source=GPS (en toute logique, les noms seraient dans ce cas pris sur le terrain, ou on y met un autre tag) ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
[OSM-talk-fr] De l'utilité d'OSM pour la Gen darmerie Nationale
Bonjour à tous, La gendarmerie nationale a fait parler d'elle en début de semaine à l'occasion du lancement d'un site web pour relancer l'enquête sur la disparition de Jonathan Coulom il y a 4 ans. A l'occasion d'un sujet au JT, je vois que le site utilise des cartes pour situer les lieux de l'affaire. Je jette donc un oeil curieux au site pour voir en détail lesdites cartes. J'ai été malheureusement bien peu surpris de voir que nos gendarmes avaient fait comme tous ceux qui ne connaissent pas OSM, c'est à dire des copies d'écran de Google Maps : http://www.dossierjonathan.fr/evolutions_lieux0.html http://www.dossierjonathan.fr/evolutions_lieux2.html http://www.dossierjonathan.fr/evolutions_lieux2-2.html http://www.dossierjonathan.fr/evolutions_lieux3.html http://www.dossierjonathan.fr/evolutions_lieux4.html http://www.dossierjonathan.fr/evolutions_lieux6-2.html Vos yeux avertis auront remarqué l'absence du copyright de rigueur. Est ce que des contributeurs de la côte Ouest Atlantique souhaitent profiter des ponts du mois de Mai pour réaliser les cartes des régions concernées et ainsi remettre nos braves pandores sur le chemin de la légalité :-)) Simon (STA) ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-fr
