Re: [OSM-talk] SotM 2024 updates, SotM 2025 call for venue

2024-07-25 Thread John Whelan
Would you like to give some reassuring words about how safe the 
attendees will be.  I understand there is some unrest in Nairobi.


Thanks John


Enock Seth Nyamador via talk <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
July 11, 2024 3:02 AM
Hello OSM Community,

(Apologies same messages, previous formatting issue fixed)

Here are some updates and reminders related to SotM 2024 that you 
should not miss: the programme is ready [1], tickets are on sale now 
[1], and the call for posters has also opened [2].


The call for the SotM 2025 venue is still open [3].

1. 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2024/07/08/participating-in-sotm-2024-programme-and-tickets/ 


2. https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2024/07/08/sotm-2024-call-for-posters/
3. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_of_the_Map_2025/Call_for_venues


Best,
Enock for SotM WG



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Enock Seth Nyamador via talk <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
July 11, 2024 2:55 AM
*

Hello OSM Community,

Here are some updates and reminders related to SotM 2024 that you 
should not miss: the programme is ready [1], tickets are on sale now 
[1], and the call for posters has also opened [2].


The call for the SotM 2025 venue is still open [3].

1. 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2024/07/08/participating-in-sotm-2024-programme-and-tickets/2. 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2024/07/08/sotm-2024-call-for-posters/3. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_of_the_Map_2025/Call_for_venues 
Best,Enock for SotM WG


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Re: [OSM-talk] microsoft/BuildingFootprints

2024-06-17 Thread john whelan
I think the guidelines cover it nicely.  I'll sprinkle a few pointers
around.

I've found changeset comments don't work terribly well with HOT mappers.
By the time I stumble across a problem it's a year or more later and they
last mapped 9 months ago.

In theory they do have a validation process but in practice they have fewer
validators than they need.

The other problem is currently many have a comment saying Microsoft
buildingfootprints.  DWG them and the quick solution is to leave the
comment off.

It's a balance between adding a lot more buildings in and adding too many.
In some areas with few buildings they are useful.

With the new mapathon clean up tools in JOSM duplicate buildings aren't a
major problem and these buildings are a lot better than many drawn with ID
but an ounce of prevention saves a lot of clean up plus until it is cleaned
up it messes population estimates up.

Thank you for the pointer.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 05:05 Mateusz Konieczny via talk, <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines
>
> So they need either actual human review or going through that process.
> If buildings are being duplicated on large scale than likely neither was
> followed.
>
> I would write changeset comment on their edit asking to fix that.
> In worse cases - revert edits altogether and in the worst or continued
> contact DWG
> to get them blocked (starting from 0-hour block in milder cases).
>
> Note that occasional mistake happens to everyone, but people should also
> react if they get changeset comment and fix data they broke.
>
> Jun 14, 2024, 03:34 by jwhelan0...@gmail.com:
>
> I'm seeing earlier buildings being duplicated by these in Uganda by at
> least one HOT project.
>
> Do we have a formal protocol on how these should be "imported"?
>
> Thanks John
> --
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[OSM-talk] microsoft/BuildingFootprints

2024-06-13 Thread John Whelan
I'm seeing earlier buildings being duplicated by these in Uganda by at 
least one HOT project.


Do we have a formal protocol on how these should be "imported"?

Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Affordable 1 CM high precision GPS.

2024-05-08 Thread John Whelan
I hesitate to say what is relevant to OpenStreetMap.  For example many 
trees are mapped but locally we lost about a quarter of them in a recent 
storm.  Is mapping all the trees in Canada relevant to OpenStreetMap?  
Keeping the number of trees up to date or even shop opening hours for 
that matter is a problem.


Cheerio John

Greg Troxel wrote on 2024-05-08 8:32 AM:

john whelan  writes:


For some reason building sites, especially large ones, use GPS as a quick
way to measure things rather than setting up a theodolite which needs a
trained person to use it.

But this is not relevant to OSM, merely perhaps interesting to nerds
that care about positioning.  Or am I missing something?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Affordable 1 CM high precision GPS.

2024-05-08 Thread john whelan
For some reason building sites, especially large ones, use GPS as a quick
way to measure things rather than setting up a theodolite which needs a
trained person to use it.

Cheerio John

On Wed, May 8, 2024, 05:39 Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 7 May 2024, at 23:56, john whelan  wrote:
> >
> > So if you're building something in a remote location and not buried in
> the forest it might actually be useful.
>
>
> in remote locations it doesn’t seem very relevant to get cm precision from
> GNSS. You could just mark any spot on the ground and measure from this
> local 0,0 point, its exact position on the globe doesn’t matter (unless you
> are dealing with border distances
> to neighbors and the like, which is not typical for remote locations)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Affordable 1 CM high precision GPS.

2024-05-07 Thread john whelan
Just to take this a little further there is one application that comes to
mind which is construction where accuracy to the cm is useful.  Certainly
these days it is used commercially.

So if you're building something in a remote location and not buried in the
forest it might actually be useful.

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Affordable 1 CM high precision GPS.

2024-05-05 Thread john whelan
It depends on the requirements.  I think mapping from Bing imagery is quite
reasonable and that isn't done to 1 cm accuracy.

However as you point out there are other solutions and I'm not advocating
one specific solution merely that it exists.  If there is a requirement
that needs high accuracy then this might work.

Perhaps it needs a wiki entry to list the advantages and disadvantages of
different approaches.  Certainly locally imagery is much better than GPS
near tall buildings.

Another issue is if you have two things in the map one that has been mapped
with high accuracy and one not there isn't really anyway to tell which is
the high accuracy one.

Cheerio John

On Sun, May 5, 2024, 14:30 Greg Troxel  wrote:

> John Whelan  writes:
>
> > Search Youtube for "Andreas Spiess ESP32 precision GPS receiver
> > (incl. RTK-GPS Tutorial)"  I deliberately haven't put a direct link
> > in.
> >
> > It needs packaging and documenting but I think this sort of
> > differential GPS could be very useful in accurate mapping.
>
> comments without watching :-)
>
>   RTK can be done for not a huge amount of money, less than a moderate
>   phone and a lot less than a new high-end phone.  The u-blox F9P is
>   about $200.  A decent antenna is another $100.  You need power and
>   cabling of course.  You then need to get RTK reference data and inject
>   it, and the F9P will compute RTK solutions.  I have an F9P; with good
>   reference data and a decent antenna, it works very well with clear sky
>   and ok in the forest, getting you fairly reliably within about a 1 m
>   vs 10 m non-RTK.
>
>   If you don't have a local RTK network reference you can run your own,
>   with double the hardware and some work to find the location of your
>   fixed antenna.
>
>   1 cm is a bogus claim; I have returned to the same piece of rebar
>   multiple times and the 30-sec averages cluster in a diameter of about
>   4 cm.  I do not know if there is systematic offset.  People tend to
>   believe the accuracy numbers they get out of the device and believing
>   them does not make sense.
>
>   One can also use rtklib with a receiver that outputs raw, without
>   needing an F9P.  This is less expensive and a lot harder.
>
>   This item it out of stock, and a fairly big markup, but
> - it works  (I have a report from a reliable nerd who has mapped
>   with it!)
> - it has a battery, a case, a display, a uSD for logging
> - it has an ESP32 to manage the F9P
> - sparkfun has been GREAT about actually working on the firmware
>   https://www.sparkfun.com/products/18442
>   https://github.com/sparkfun/SparkFun_RTK_Firmware/
>
>   cm accuracy is not really useful for mapping vs 5 cm or 10 cm, but
>   having 10 cm accuracy means you can just take the data as accurate.
>   trails that you thought you mapped well turn out not to be where the
>   map says.  mapping done with RTK is so much neater and cleaner.  It's
>   reasonable to map individual rocks and then the map looks like the
>   ground and lines up with the imagery.  If you haven't tried it you
>   don't know what you are missing.   I don't like to map trails with
>   regular GPS any more.
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Affordable 1 CM high precision GPS.

2024-05-05 Thread John Whelan
Search Youtube for "Andreas Spiess ESP32 precision GPS receiver (incl. 
RTK-GPS Tutorial)"  I deliberately haven't put a direct link in.


It needs packaging and documenting but I think this sort of differential 
GPS could be very useful in accurate mapping.


Cheerio John
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: FW: [EXTERNAL] Re: ODbl concerns

2023-08-24 Thread john whelan
Apols to Allen, the message was too large with the old stuff on the end and
I forwarded it to the talk ca list by mistake.


-- Forwarded message -
From: john whelan 
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 14:04
Subject: Re: FW: [EXTERNAL] Re: [OSM-talk] ODbl concerns
To: George Boulos (DTP) 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org , Robert C Potter (DTP) <
robert.pot...@roads.vic.gov.au>, Priya Maniam Chinakarapaya (DTP) <
priya.maniamchinakarap...@roads.vic.gov.au>


I was probably what you might call a glue person in the project. I was
interested in importing bus stops with the phone number to call for the
next bus in Ottawa to the map.

The new minister in charge of Treasury Board wanted to shake hands with
Open Data people.  So a group of a dozen of us got selected to attend.  The
most important people there were not the minister but his staff and when I
mentioned we couldn't use their open data because of the license they asked
me to repeat the statement and they listened.  Later they went on to talk
to other open data consumers. It took five years for their license to be
changed to something that looked like we could use.  In Canada we have a
long history of importing CANVEC data into the map.  The number of mappers
per square kilometer is much lower than say Germany.

In Ottawa we were very lucky in having a University lecturer who was into
Open Data and she was instrumental in many ways in forwarding the agenda.

I'd retired from Statistics Canada but knew their corporate culture quite
well.  It was about the time when the new license was approved, that they
decided to create a project about buildings.  The pilot would take place in
Ottawa seeing it was local and one of their staff had seen OpenStreetMap
and thought this was a great way that they could crowd source adding more
information about buildings.  They'd seen a building added with iD and
thought it would be simple.  This they would combine with other data and
sell to clients.

I drank my first cup of coffee of many with the project manager and
suggested it might be an idea to have a meeting to see if data could be
imported.  The new Federal government's Open Data licence looked as if it
matched OSM's licensing requirements so it looked sort of doable and
Metrolink had recently been adding addresses.  Metrolinx is a transit
organisation in Ontario and by adding addresses into OSM they hoped newly
occupied addresses could make use of route planning applications.

We had a meeting, City of Ottawa, myself, someone from Metrolinx who had
imported addresses from a Stats Canada source into OSM, they were there on
the phone, we had someone from HOT in Switzerland describing how HOT used
crowdsourcing to add data to OSM, the University lecturer who brought up
bilingualism, I had a Nexus running OSMAND in French displaying the Ottawa
street names in French and that probably sealed the deal as bilingualism is
mandatory and expensive in the Canadian civil service.  The lecturer
identified a dataset that the city of Ottawa owned and that became the data
set that would be later imported. The Stats Canada director who was at the
meeting said we'd turned the project into something quite different.

The City of Ottawa would need to change their license to align with the new
Federal one, that had to go to council but was eventually approved after a
delay of about a year.

The civil service and OSM are very, very different cultures.  The open data
would be imported by local mappers but only if they decided they would go
ahead.  We had two major targets in OSM, the locals and the heavies. Stats
had money so I suggested that the project manager attend SotM in europe.
Unfortunately at the last minute he was unable to attend but fortunately
his boss was and he met with a number of what I'd call the heavies of OSM.

The project manager and his assistant were dispatched to meet with the
local mappers and buy them coffee and flesh out the details.  We had a
group of enthusiastic mappers around, James was one of them.  They had a
half dozen physical meetings over coffee and agreed the import could go
ahead and that the local  OSM mappers would do it.

OSM has had a lot of substandard data imported into it over time so there
are now procedures to follow before importing the data.  Many mappers in
OSM, especially in Europe, don't exactly love data being imported and their
views are made known in the import process.  Getting approval to import is
not easy and dealing with the people involved was not easy either. You
can't just import, you have to have a process to deal with existing data in
the map. I'd have someone else do it.

The license was challenged. It would need to go to the Legal Working Group
for a benediction.  Their backlog was about three years.  However Mapbox
and others had heard about the project at the SotM and were interested.  I
understand one of their employees was a member of the LWG.  Someh

Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing State of the Map 2024: Join us in Nairobi and online on 6-8 September 2024!

2023-08-22 Thread john whelan
I think there is a great deal to be said for holding SotM in different
locations.

The trouble is finding them.

Running a successful conference like this is quite a lot of work.

Locations that are used to holding conferences will have experienced teams
that exist.

Other locations will have to put together something from scratch which will
be more work so just coaxing people to do the work to put in a submission
is a major effort.

For Africa the ideal location would be one that is visa free for most
African countries.  Kenya may well be the African country that allows visa
free travel from the most African countries but it does require visas for
most African countries.

Then you get safety.  Is OpenStreetMap a terrorist target?  Unfortunately
the answer is yes.  If I wish to destabilise a country then I want to grab
any food aid and only supply my supporters.  So NGOs and OpenStreetMap
become targets.

Nairobi has been hit by terrorist attacks in the past.

I suspect there are safer African countries but you need to plan ahead and
what might be safe today might have it's government overthrown by a coup
tomorrow.

Then you get people voting with their feet.  SotM EU and SotM US may
attract more attendees and more interesting presenters.  How do you deal
with SotM becoming a side show?

Accessibility Oxford Street in London has roughly 1.5 million people within
a 45 minute journey by public transport.  I'm unsure what the numbers for
Nairobi are but the higher the number of locals the higher the number of
people who might attend.

Same sort of comment for longer distances.  What sort of destinations and
what frequency are available at the airport?  Any long distance trains
available?

One comment made to me by someone who attends a number of OpenStreetMap
conferences was at least they could take a bit of time looking at Ottawa.
Often they only saw the inside of the hotel and the conference building
which sometimes were the same building.  Apparently these days modern
hotels all look the same.

How do you ensure that this one would be any different?

My feeling is getting HOT and WHO involved might up the chances of success.

Cheerio John


On Tue, Aug 22, 2023, 19:28 o_andras  wrote:

> Hi fellow humans!
>
> (replying to the top email to avoid accidentally pointing fingers, lest
> anyone think I'm accusing them of anything; it's intended to be more of
> an introspection guide)
>
>
> I find it disheartening that "open and diverse" nowadays seems to mean
> "exclusive". The rules created to foster diversity and whatnot exclude
> too, turns out! So much for diversity...
>
> Of course, this is not news, I'm not the first to think it or even to
> say it (unfortunately I'm not the most expressive either; let's hope I
> can get the message across). Is it taboo to talk about it? I've seen
> others expressing this sentiment and being shunned for it.
>
> Can't the (possibly) affected part of the community understand this? A
> SotM hosted in a "western" country (strong emphasis on the quotes!),
> maybe it's welcomming to the global community -- we the "westerners" are
> so much better after all (that was sarcasm, if you couldn't tell...)
> But is it accessible to the global community?
>
> And didn't you, a "westerner", get the chance of attending several SotMs
> already? And are you part of the OSM community to "westernize" the
> "non-westerners"? Never thought of going to other places to learn
> different ways of life, etc?
>
> Being "good" or "bad" is not so clear-cut, either. There are some better
> things and some worse things. Being worse at something doesn't make it
> worse at everything.
>
> Certainly, not everyone in a given country is the same. You should know
> -- can you positively say there's no discrimination in your own country,
> just because you yourself don't discriminate in your own country? I wish
> you and I both could...
>
>
> OSM or the SotM isn't your own toy, that you can lend for others to play
> with. It's more of a leisure=playground; access=yes. Let everyone have
> their turn. If you don't want to go down the slide today (no matter the
> reason), go to the swing. The slide will be there for you another day.
>
>
> PS: please avoid replying with examples of extremism. From my pov it's
> not relevant to the SotM discussion.
>
> Best regards,
> o_andras
>
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Mapping in war zones

2023-08-18 Thread John Whelan

I'm looking for thoughts on this.

Specifically Mali at the moment.  Are there any NGOs still operating or 
am I just defining targets for the Wagner group etc?


Ideally any input from local Mali mappers would be valued together with 
thoughts for a more general case.


Many Thanks

John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing State of the Map 2024: Join us in Nairobi and online on 6-8 September 2024!

2023-08-16 Thread John Whelan
Whoever said life was easy.  My understanding is Kenya requires visas 
for many African countries so perhaps ease of obtaining visas etc should 
go on the list.


I sympathise with the idea of holding one in Africa or elsewhere I just 
naturally look for any problems that might arise.


Running a successful conference takes expertise, and attention to 
details, experience helps so perhaps some central organisation might 
help or give guidance.


HOT held a conference in Ottawa a year or two ago.  It was held jointly 
with Statistics Canada, but I seem to recall it was held in term time. 
There was an open data conference held here some years ago that had a 
lot of OpenStreetMap clients and mappers present, including HOT I think 
that one was run by External Affairs.  A number of attendees stayed at 
Ottawa University.


I think we need to focus on what we'd like to see.  For example Ottawa 
OpenStreetMap group has probably done the most comprehensive imports of 
Open Data into OSM of any city.  Is there a tale to tell to other cities 
on how to make their data available and what are the advantages? Yes I 
understand many mappers feel that real mapping is done with physical 
mappers but sometimes getting a complete set of bus stops with the code 
to call for bus times has value.


Has anyone done any financial analysis of Open Data and can we improve 
the map in Africa by using it and thus outcomes.


Ireland might work well, Dublin has good air connections.

Is there a danger that SotM US or SotM EU might become larger than SotM 
so it becomes less relevant?


I might suggest that alternate years somewhere more exotic is chosen 
than the EU.


Cheerio John

Frederik Ramm wrote on 8/16/2023 3:43 PM:

Hi,

On 8/16/23 20:01, John Whelan wrote:
If it was in the EU or the USA a higher proportion of members would 
not need a passport or visa.


... but almost all visitors from Africa would, and more importantly, 
many would have a very hard time obtaining it. Whereas the average 
"westerner" wanting to go to Nairobi simply fills out an online form 
and gets their visa within a couple of days.


For future SotMs I might suggest starting with accommodation, many 
universities have halls of residence available during the summer months.


These are good ideas but remember that SotM is not centrally 
organised. The SotM team puts out a call for location, and local 
groups can then apply. An application from a local group who have 
thought about these things, and who say "we've talked to our local 
university and there's affordable accommodation there" will certainly 
be looked upon favourably, but that's about all - the OSMF SotM team 
will not scout the world for locations with affordable accommodation, 
simple visa rules and cheap travel, all they can do is evaluate the 
bids that have been submitted.


Ottawa for example has halls with double beds and ensuites plus there 
are lecture halls etc available.  Meal plans can be purchased which 
means that you're eating in the cafeterias true but many 
conversations at SotM will take place outside the conference rooms 
and over a meal is a useful place to talk.


I would love to go to a SotM in Canada, however there has only ever 
been one bid from a Canadian team and that was withdrawn over the 
announcement of SotM US being at the UN in New York that year! If you 
can get a few Canadians to submit a bid for a SotM in one of the 
coming years, I'm sure that would be very attractive.


The EU might be easier than the UK since britexit the UK is no longer 
a free travel zone for EU citizens and the EU has trains which means 
a lower average carbon footprint per attendee.


The OSMF has been criticized for having run the last three in-person 
SotM conferences in Europe (two in Italy, one in Germany) so you can't 
blame them for looking elsewhere! Which doesn't rule out future 
European SotMs - after all, that's the continent where OSM was 
invented - but it's certainly good to go elsewhere once in a while, 
even if that is outside of the comfort zone for the average European 
or American traveller.


Bye
Frederik



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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing State of the Map 2024: Join us in Nairobi and online on 6-8 September 2024!

2023-08-16 Thread John Whelan


Andrew Hain: "I would like to congratulate the organising team in 
Nairobi and the SotM Working Group for doing this. Giving the worldwide 
community a broader understanding of the challenges of mapping Africa 
and using maps there is positive step for OSM’s inclusiveness as a truly 
worldwide map. "


I think we need to balance things out. There is a need to expose Africa 
to different ideas but being pragmatic this won't be done in a day.


I think we also ought to recognise that travel within Africa is not 
easy.  Many African countries do not have direct flights to Nairobi and 
even when they do exist they aren't cheap.


"inclusiveness" I think we need to recognise there are many barriers 
here.  First the cost of flights from say Cairo to Nairobi is close to 
the cost of London to New York.  Europe to Nairobi in general is more 
expensive than a transatlantic flight.  Thinking of where our members 
live do they need a passport or visa?  If it was in the EU or the USA a 
higher proportion of members would not need a passport or visa.  I seem 
to recall yellow fever vaccine certificate is required and Ebola 
outbreaks have occurred in neighbouring countries.


The Canadian government's advice for travel to Kenya is in the link.

Travel advice and advisories for Kenya 
<https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/kenya>


Basically there is a credible risk of terrorist attacks in Nairobi, and 
there have been some there already according to the web site.  The crime 
rate is high so basically you're living in a hotel and the conference 
area.  Sightseeing is not recommended.


In summation I think what we'll see is a SotM dominated by locals from 
Kenya, attendees from commercial companies or others on expenses, and a 
few more wealthy mappers than we would in other locations.  Whether this 
is good or bad I make no comment.


I note that the recent World/Scout/Jamboree got hit by high 
temperatures, with global warming should the average expected 
temperature be taken into account?


For future SotMs I might suggest starting with accommodation, many 
universities have halls of residence available during the summer 
months.   Ottawa for example has halls with double beds and ensuites 
plus there are lecture halls etc available.  Meal plans can be purchased 
which means that you're eating in the cafeterias true but many 
conversations at SotM will take place outside the conference rooms and 
over a meal is a useful place to talk.


I'd suggest running it over a weekend with the weekend free.  That way 
those on expenses can grab a bit of sightseeing and the airfares 
typically are cheaper with a Saturday night stay.  Plus you can run a 
few more informal activities over the weekend.


The EU might be easier than the UK since britexit the UK is no longer a 
free travel zone for EU citizens and the EU has trains which means a 
lower average carbon footprint per attendee.


Note to Amanda realistically with the high crime rate and 
"Women’s safety: Women travelling alone may be subject to some forms of 
harassment and verbal abuse. Attacks involving sexual assault have 
occurred."  The LBGTQ side of things might be the least of your problems.


Have fun but do your risk analysis before attending and know what to expect.

Cheerio John



Amanda McCann wrote on 8/16/2023 12:00 PM:

I'm an out, queer trans woman. I presume this event won't be safe for people 
like me?

It's illegal to be gay in Nairobi, and parliamentarians are proposing even 
stricter, oppressive laws¹. Trans people are often lumped into the same group. 
The last SotM CoC² said: “[we are] dedicated to providing a harassment-free 
conference experience for everyone, regardless of … gender identity and 
expression, sexual orientation, …. We do not tolerate harassment of conference 
participants in any form”. This CoC wouldn't be possible in 2024, right?

I presume the advice from the SotM WG is that this event cannot for LGBTQ 
people, right?

Oh, doesn't this go against the OSMF/SotMWG's safety policy?³

¹ 
https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/kenya-could-follow-uganda-east-african-nations-wage-war-lgbt-rights-2023-06-22/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-66079603
² https://2022.stateofthemap.org/codeofconduct/
³ 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/StateoftheMap_Organizing_Committee/StateoftheMap_safety_policy

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 19:56 +02:00, Federica Gaspari  
wrote:

Dear all,

Get ready to meet and connect with old and new mappy friends from the
global OpenStreetMap community again!

The State of the Map Organising Committee is thrilled to officially
announce that the global conference of the OpenStreetMap community,
State of the Map (SotM), will be making its way to Nairobi, Kenya from
September 6th-8th 2024! This landmark event will bring together
passionate mappers, data enthusiasts, technologists, and community
members from all corners

Re: [OSM-talk] Adding automated trees to OSM

2023-08-08 Thread john whelan
So to sum up these are trees that you have not personally inspected and
added to the map but you are relying on a third party for the information
and you can't be sure exactly where it is from nor how accurate it is?  Nor
do you have any idea of the license on the data.

Based on my interpretation of your reply, please don't do this.  If you
must press ahead then at least follow the automated edit rules and go
through the formal import process including checking the license is
compatible with OSM.  Many open data licences are not.

Cheerio John

On Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 14:25 Harsha Somaya  wrote:

> Thanks for the link. Answering your question below:
>
> 1) what is the source of tree data--- from an open source app that allows
> users to capture images of trees
> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?-- an example
> would be trees that are around my residential house, healthy trees
> 3) where it would be added-- for now, mainly the US area
> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees-- code makes sure
> that no two trees at the same GPS can be added
> 5) which tags will be used-- species, genus, maybe height, image of tree,
> maybe wikipedia tree about species, tree type (broadleaf versus not)
> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add-- In terms of verify,
> we make sure it is a healthy tree that has not already been added
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 2:12 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> 1) what is the source of tree data
>> 2) can you give samples of tree data that would be added?
>> 3) where it would be added
>> 4) how you will prevent duplication with existing trees
>> 5) which tags will be used
>> 6) have you verified quality of data you want to add
>>
>> Also, I want to echo comments from
>>
>> https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/osm-tree-automation-worldwide/102197/2
>>
>>
>> Aug 8, 2023, 20:06 by hsomaya2...@gmail.com:
>>
>> Hello! Hope everything is well. I am trying to add trees to OSM in an
>> automated way via python. Of course, these are real trees that I do not
>> want to add manually. I am planning to run the script every 30 minutes to
>> process about 100 trees at a time, creating 7 changests for every run/30
>> min interval. Hence, every 30 minutes 7 changesets will be created, each
>> having about 14 trees/nodes. These trees will be relatively close around a
>> central GPS point. The comment would be similar to "Adding 14 trees all
>> clustered around X GPS coordinate." Does the community have any concern or
>> suggestions for this? Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you all
>> soon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> With gratitude,
> Harsha
>
>
> [image: Colby] <https://colby.edu/>
>
> Harsha Somaya
>
> (She/her)
>
>
>
> <https://www.instagram.com/colbycollege/>
> [image: LinkedIn] <https://www.linkedin.com/in/harsha-somaya-16aa7b224/>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] bot proposal: shop values cleanup (low use values only, 1 used 250 times, three over 100 times, many used less)

2023-05-19 Thread John Whelan

shop=consignment

Locally it means a shop that sells things such as high end used clothes on 
consignment.  ie the owner of the goods only get paid when the items are sold.

Cheerio John



Philip Barnes wrote on 5/19/2023 12:25 PM:

On Wed, 2023-05-17 at 20:48 +0200, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

For start there is a long list of shop values which meaning I do not
understand
(for example, from start of list of exactly such values:
shop=grossery, shop=towing, shop=showroom, shop=salon, shop=garage,
shop=pond, shop=consignment...)


Maybe here I have the advantage of being a native speaker but these
mostly look fairly intuitive to me. Also looking at the names often
helps.

shop=grossery
First glance it looks like a typo of grocery.
There is one in the UK which is a small co-op. So that one should be
shop=convenience. I do not know about the usage in Cameroon but asking
local mappers is preferable to simply changing the tag to =yes. They
could well be foodshops/grocers>

shop=towing
First thought is 'depends on the flavour (or flavor) of English.

Usage is mostly in North American and it looks like breakdown, tow your
vehicle. Names tend to confirm this.

shop=showroom
Where stuff is displayed for sale to be installed seems to be the
thing.
A bit like the Gas Showrooms of my childhood. These were places where
gas appliances were displayed, you paid for them and they were then
fitted by their staff.


shop=salon
Salon is a common name used for a hairdressers shop, so most likely a
mistagging of shop=hairdresser or beauty.
The names of places with those tags tends to confirm my suspicions.

shop=garage
Garage has a few car related meanings. A place where you take your car
to be repaired, fill it with fuel or its a building where you keep your
car.

Tags of the places using this suggest a mix of car stuff. Mostly car
repair. For example https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/153706791 has a
note MOT operator, so car testing/repair
and https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/509612586 Chesterfield Concrete
Garages will obviously sell you a concrete pre-fabricated garage to put
in your garden.

shop=pond
This one seems obvious. Immediately thought of a shop selling pond
supplies, pumps, liners, plants, fish for your garden pond.
More commonly tag usage is shop=aquatics.

The main thing if you don't understand a tag

shop=consignment
The word consignment suggests a courier but appears to be a thing in
the US and Canada. Quite a few, and it seems to be what they describe
themselves as.
I am prepared to accept that this is outside my life experience and if
I need to understand it I will ask the local community or a mapper who
has added them. Actually there a two within a few minutes walk of my
cousins in her local high street, so I could ask her.

But changing these to shop=yes helps nobody. As I mentioned shop=pond
would probably have been my first thought if I wanted a pump and liner
for my garden pond.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

2023-05-03 Thread John Whelan



Courtney wrote on 5/3/2023 4:00 PM:
Compare a statement like this:

 "I know you may be relatively new here, so to help you be successful, 
here are some ideas for how to structure for your project"


to a statement like this:

 "I am disappointed to yet again see someone doing this wrong and 
ignoring the requests of the community"



There is a difference in the level of language proficiency needed to use 
the first sentence so you're asking a great deal of people using a 
second language to use that level of proficiency.
This might be appropriate for easing people into a new situation  but I 
think you also have to take into account that technical people and there 
are many here usually are more direct , blunt if you like.


How would you rephrase Fredrick's post by the way?  I may have missed 
your answer.


Can you clarify who "your team" in this context is? You were introduced 
in Marjan's initial post as "OSMF Communication Working Group Member" 
and were the only of four names without a TomTom affiliation. You are 
posting this neither from an OSMF nor from a TomTom address but from a 
gmail one.


Is "your team" a corporate TomTom endeavour? Is it the OSMF 
Communications working group? Or...?


Unclear affiliations are a problem, as I pointed out in this thread a 
few days ago. Has everything I said been filed away under "pushback" and 
ignored?


Many Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Intercultural differences / cultural diversity / OSM communication behaviors

2023-05-03 Thread John Whelan

A very accurate summation in my opinion.

Thank you

John

Imre Samu wrote on 5/3/2023 1:03 PM:
Courtney <mailto:courtney.william...@gmail.com>> ezt írta (időpont: 2023. ápr. 
30., V, 19:06):


This conversation has opened up important new questions.  Why is
the main "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback?
Why is it the only one that is producing such a negative tone? 



Hi Courtney,

I think it's important to mention the problems arising from 
*intercultural differences*
in your SOTM US - OSM Communication Presentation, as the OSM community 
currently struggles with misunderstandings between different cultural 
groups.


Although the "OSM Diversity Statement" has been accepted, its 
practical implementation isn't fully successful yet. *Ethnocentric 
attitudes* need to be addressed, and we must be more open to other 
cultures. However, this is easier said than done.


IMHO:
Most conflicts within the OSM community and on the OSM-Talk mailing 
list are due to *intercultural differences,* and there's no current 
mediation or conflict resolution in place. It might be helpful to have 
"intercultural mediators" who can bridge the gap between cultures and 
help understand other cultural groups.


I mainly notice the clash between American and EU/German cultures, but 
other cultural conflicts are likely as well.


Probably the EU/German OSM community needs to learn how to wrap their 
raw, honest messages in a sugar coating, making it more palatable for 
those with an American cultural background. Conversely, the American 
community should strive to be less sensitive towards differing norms 
from other cultural communities, embracing the deep-level diversity 
that comes with global collaboration. ( [1], [2]  )


Unfortunately, the current OSM Etiquette Guidelines [ 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette/Etiquette_Guidelines ]  
do not provide much assistance in understanding and resolving 
intercultural issues. To improve the guidelines, it would be 
beneficial to incorporate information on intercultural communication 
and provide resources to help community members navigate these 
challenges effectively. This would promote a more inclusive and 
harmonious environment within the OSM community.


In addition to this, new OSM community members should be prepared for 
the potential culture shock they may encounter, especially those who 
come from a top-down corporate environment. It's important to remember 
that OpenStreetMap is characterized by a bazaar-style, bottom-up 
communication approach, which may be an adjustment for some. Embracing 
this unique aspect of the community will help newcomers adapt and 
thrive in the OSM environment.


In fact, this is a big topic, and when I consider the OSM community 
problems from the past few years through the viewpoint of cultural 
differences, it gives me a good understanding of the reasons.


Generally, the OSM Talks mailing list is characterized by *"deep-level 
diversity," and as a result, more productive conflicts are expected 
than usual,* which is normal based on some diversity research [3]. 
This means that diverse perspectives and experiences can lead to more 
engaging discussions and ultimately result in innovative solutions and 
ideas for the community.


I would be curious about others' opinions as well. To what extent can 
cultural diversity be a problem? And how can we alleviate conflicts 
and amplify the advantages arising from cultural differences?




contexts:
[1]
/""According to Hofstede, a typical conversation in a German cultural 
context is characterized by a large degree of honesty, even if it hurts./
/Consequently, Germans are perceived to be among the most direct 
communicators in the world (Yin, 2002).
Presumably, the strategy “be honest even if it hurts” offers the other 
party the opportunity to understand and learn from possible mistakes.
In a qualitative study, Yin (2002) explored the concept of  German 
wahrheit (truth), in terms of a German standard for communicating in 
public.
She describes wahrheit as expressions of an individual’s personal 
opinions, using the first pronoun: “The wahrheit can be displayed in a 
manner that implicitly or explicitly indicates the rightness of one’s 
own opinion. In public talk, as one German informant put it, ‘Telling 
the wahrheit hurts a little bit, but it’s okay’” (Yin, 2002, p. 249).  
As a result, frank and forthright discussion with open disagreement 
for the sake of the discussion is preferred" Indeed, not directly 
telling the wahrheit was perceived as hiding personal opinions or 
lying by the German participants in Yin’s (2002) study.

...
Additionally, Yin’s (2002) findings suggest that German and 
U.S.-American meetings might differ in terms of the frequency of 
counteractive meeting behaviors. Her finding that Germans were more 
outspoken, cared particularly for telling 

Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

2023-04-30 Thread john whelan
*I object only to the tone of some of the comments, and to assumptions that
are made about our motivation, decision process re: our approach, and
quality of our skills. I'm not alone in objecting to problems of tone more
broadly, and so I feel comfortable insisting on a higher quality discourse
here on behalf of myself and the many others who share this concern. I
think that good forum etiquette requires that people assume the best and
ask clarifying questions. As well, there are several very commonly used
phrases and rhetorical devices that can be deployed to make 'advice' feel
like advice instead of condemnation or scorn. *

Tone is difficult it is cultural.  For example think about gun
control.  I think
Allen Mustard is one of the very few people on the list who comes anywhere
near a polite tone that is understandable by many.  The American ideas and
UK ideas are very different.  1066 might not mean much to many people but
it has a great deal of meaning to few.

Then you get to big city dwellers and small city dwellers.  Small
city dwellers tend to have longer greetings than big city dwellers.  In
some places it is perfectly acceptable to raise an eyebrow as a form of
greeting although it might seem odd to you.  Surveys on OSM on talk are
interesting, it seems everyone and his dog wants to run a survey about OSM
mappers and why they do it.  There is a concept called respondent burden or
"is this yet another survey?" which might explain the lack of enthusiasm
you may encounter.

There are many people here who don't have English as a first language.
Although some such as Americans think they do.  I live in Canada which is
to a large extent bilingual.  In the office we had a francophone who was
rated exempt for English oral.  I had a coworker who came from the UK not
many miles away from where I was born and one day we spoke using local
slang and she understood about one word in ten. We could even speak using
words she understood but lacked the references for their meaning.

OSM is a place where the importance is placed on the map.  Social skills
are not a job requirement and to be honest some of the most productive or
should I say obsessive mappers can be very black and white but they really
do great mapping and I think that is important.

Finally face to face is usually best for communication which is why I have
been known to persuade someone to go to Europe in person to a state of the
map when I wanted to pull something together but mailing lists serve a
purpose.

Cheerio John


On Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 17:26 Courtney  wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
> Here, thanks to the generosity of some folks on the OWG and OSMF who
> donated their time to us so that we could have access to an open source
> tool of this quality, is a LimeSurvey version.
>
> https://osmf.limequery.org/751285?lang=en
>
> Please do fill it out and share it widely within the mailing lists. Please
> do not share it in other channels (Twitter, Mastodon,
> community.openstreetmap.org, etc.) as I will be posting unique versions
> in those channels.
>
> Once again, it is OBVIOUSLY our first choice to offer an open source
> survey; we didn't because we initially couldn't. Now, we are able to, and
> I'm glad of it.  I share the concerns that many of you expressed and fully
> understand and value the complexity and importance of the commitment to
> open source software and data.  I also have a good understanding of the
> nuances and complexity of this conversation. Indeed, I celebrate them.
>
> I object only to the tone of some of the comments, and to assumptions that
> are made about our motivation, decision process re: our approach, and
> quality of our skills. I'm not alone in objecting to problems of tone more
> broadly, and so I feel comfortable insisting on a higher quality discourse
> here on behalf of myself and the many others who share this concern. I
> think that good forum etiquette requires that people assume the best and
> ask clarifying questions. As well, there are several very commonly used
> phrases and rhetorical devices that can be deployed to make 'advice' feel
> like advice instead of condemnation or scorn.
>
> C
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 3:56 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>> Courtney  writes:
>>
>> > Can I ask--what is the fundamental objection to us trying to learn a bit
>> > more about OSM communication habits?
>>
>> I think you are misinterpreting.  I detected no objection to trying to
>> learn.  I only see objection to proprietary tools and pushing users to
>> surveillance.
>>
>
>
> --
>
> --Courtney Cook Williamson
> survivalbybook.substack.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

2023-04-30 Thread john whelan
My background was working with surveys and my comments simply came from
that background and the steps taken to obtain accurate results.  Nothing
else.

Typically a university run survey isn't done to high standards.

Your comment on questions from talk I think relates to the users.
OpenStreetMap roots are in open data and a desire to avoid proprietary
systems.  The old fogies, if you will, tend to use mailing lists, they do a
lot of editting and background work to make it run smoothly
disproportionately so.  Often they don't use the flavour of the month
online forum.

So if you ask in an online forum are on line forums great you'll get a
positive answer.  Those who don't think they are great won't use them.

If you ask in the talk mailing list you get a different set of respondents.

As I said before the selection of the sample is critical.  There is a story
told of an interviewer who surveyed passengers at a railway station about
gambling.  100% were in favour.  It was only later it was spotted she'd
interviewed people who were there to catch a special train to a race course.

So what exactly are you trying to measure?  Are you weighting the replies
against the number of edits the person has made?  Does a HOT mapper who has
made three edits count.  Remember that they will almost certainly have been
recruited through social media.

Then you get people who map quite happily by themselves or in a very small
group of two communicating one on one via email.  Not everyone feels the
need to group hug in an online forum.  The mapper I'm thinking of is exHOT
and prefers to quietly map parts of Africa that are basically unmapped.  We
do work together and communicate via email to decide which bit to map
next.  Remember HOT is very much working together and for some mappers this
doesn't work well.

So are you interested in a sample of OpenStreetMap mappers or a sample of
online forum mappers who are happy with Google forms as your sample?

There is a difference and as long as you don't say our survey says everyone
in OSM thinks this about online forums I'm happy and content.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 13:06 Courtney  wrote:

>
> We do indeed have people with non technical backgrounds working on the
> survey, including a multilingual person with an advanced degree in language
> and technology, and a person with an advanced degree in English language.
> We have two very experienced data analysts working on it, as well.
>
> We did not run a trial survey against a random sample because, as I said
> in my previous post, this survey is an ancillary part of a larger,
> long-term study that relies on publically available data from OSM
> communication channels. We are also quite capable of framing our findings
> within the context of how the survey was distributed, with appropriate
> reference to everything from survey bias, to the difficulties of conducting
> a free survey across a global community, to the short amount of time that
> we have to do the survey. No one is claiming that we will be able to
> deliver the one true, definitive quantitative analysis of OSM communication
> behaviors to rule them all. We are attempting to uncover some
> directional behaviors, and see if we can foster
> a better conversation within the community.
>
> This conversation has opened up important new questions.  Why is the main
> "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback? Why is it the only
> one that is producing such a negative tone? How widely is the principle of
> using only open source software adopted across the community? We already
> had a question to this effect within the survey, but we will now be able to
> learn more by adding the limesurvey. None of this is going to be
> definitive. All of it is going to be interesting and help raise new
> questions that hopefully can be studied.
>
> Can I ask--what is the fundamental objection to us trying to learn a bit
> more about OSM communication habits? I understand the impulse to give
> advice--this is welcome even when the advice is predicated on the idea that
> we lack any kind of insight or experience--there is always more to learn.
> But, I don't understand the degree of ire and frankly, incredulity that is
> being levied here.  Should we wait until there is a university study that
> is fully funded and staffed, and with a perfect approach, with a year's
> worth of pre-testing, to ask these questions? Is that the standard here?
> Wait for perfection or do nothing?  Is that how OSM itself was built? I
> don't understand the tone or the defensiveness of these comments. If the
> goal is to advance the OSM project, is it better to gate keep all inquiries
> to a suffocating degree? Or to try to learn and grow?
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 11:45 AM John Whelan 
>

Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

2023-04-30 Thread John Whelan
Just a comment on Fredrick's input. Selecting the sample is one of the 
most difficult parts of a survey to get right.  The self selection part 
of this survey makes it open to bias, as Frederick has commented this is 
compounded by the platform. I'm not making a comment about if the 
platform is appropriate or not just that if it affects your response 
then it begins to cast doubt on your results.


The second is knowing enough about your target audience so they will 
understand your questions.  Perhaps have someone non technical with an 
English Language background, a librarian, for example check it for 
jargon.   One technique is to run a trial survey against a true random 
sample.  I don't think this was done here.


If they don't understand what you're asking then you aren't going to get 
a reliable answers and to be honest I didn't.


I'm not sure if this particular survey is trying to justify a particular 
stance or get accurate information.


Cheerio John

Frederik Ramm wrote on 4/30/2023 11:18 AM:

Hi,

On 4/28/23 15:57, Marc_marc wrote:

I am impressed (and disappointed) that those who do these surveys
have still not learned that part of the active opendata community
does not wish to ally a closeddata based enterprise (nominally:
no use of google forms for some of us).


Agree. It's one thing for an OSMF working group to use a closed 
source/siloed product internally, but quite another to attempt to 
engage with the community via such a product.


I am not surprised when a commercial company like Tom Tom does that 
without a second thought, but I would expect more from an OSMF working 
group.


Please find a way for non-Google users to participate in this survey, 
or your results will be biased to the point of un-suitability because 
they will lack responses from people who'd rather not engage with 
Google, i.e. the whole "communication behaviours" of this group of 
people would not be represented.


Bye
Frederik



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Re: [OSM-talk] Talk-GB Digest, Vol 197, Issue 27

2023-04-02 Thread john whelan
I suspect the National Trust of which I happen to be a member is much more
centralised and top down than OpenStreetMap which tends to be more bottom
up.  It is a different culture and the OSM side has evolved over time.

I'd ask you to be nice to us and work with us where possible.  The OSM
volunteers can be very useful in filling in details on the maps.  The more
experienced ones are very good.  New ones involved in a mapathon depend on
who is running it.

Rose worked at one of the properties for a while and whilst she spoke four
languages and could get by in a few more she was surprised by the number of
different languages spoken by the visitors.  OSMAND is based on OSM and
currently is available in 45 different languages.  The data is the normal
internal OSM database and both the interface and content can be displayed
in the language of choice.  Names can be tagged in other languages,  for
example name:fr=Londres

This has been particularly useful locally when dealing with official
languages and I seem to recall the National Trust owns a few in Wales.

I suspect there can be a lot of mutual benefit if the two organisations can
work together.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Apr 2, 2023, 18:24 Ragone, Olivia via talk 
wrote:

> Thank you for providing feedback on some of the edits made by National
> Trust staff as part of our organised editing activity, on the
> representation of paths. We’d like to apologise that it has taken some time
> to provide a response.  We are always open to constructive feedback that
> helps us to add value to OSM for the benefit of all.
>
>
>
> The aim of the National Trust’s organised editing activity is to capture
> and accurately tag the access rights of all paths on or near National Trust
> managed land. In doing so, we hope to use it as the basis for enhancing
> access and the management of paths, to improve visitor experience.
>
>
>
> We are trying to be consistent in how ways are tagged / represented in
> OpenStreetMap. A standard schema and internally developed guidance are
> being utilised to help map commonly occurring scenarios. This schema can be
> found on the OSM Wiki page (link). We currently have 5 staff members
> conducting remote mapping sessions with local rangers to gain their
> on-the-ground insight. We believe that working with the on-the-ground staff
> provides our best available source of local knowledge, but we acknowledge
> there may be situations where there are differing opinions on path
> representation. The Trust invite feedback from OSM mappers, but it may take
> some time to review each situation.
>
>
>
> In the time available, we are focusing on the existence of the path (ie.
> location and connectivity) and the legal right (ie. access tags). In the
> future, we hope to look at other attributes to represent the
> characteristics of the path. Following the initial data capture, we plan to
> hand over OSM updates to the ranger teams; we are currently refining the
> guidance material to support this. Feedback from the OSM community to help
> ensure we are providing appropriate guidance is welcome.
>
>
>
> We tend to use a standard changeset comment as it would be very difficult
> to capture details of every change. However, since receiving feedback on
> the Talk-GB mailing list, we have amended our standard comment to be more
> representative of the type of changes that have been made on individual
> properties. As part of the process, we have a monitoring tool that looks at
> the weekly changes to paths in OSM on land managed by the National Trust.
> This could be made publicly available as an Esri Open Data WMS if it would
> provide further transparency. We accept in the time that we have,
> occasional errors will be made. After our first round of data capture, we
> have allocated time to analyse and assure the quality of changes by our
> team.
>
>
>
> Overall, we expect that the changes will improve the representation of
> paths on OSM, but we are very keen to improve our process by utilising the
> wealth of knowledge and experience in the OSM community.
>
>
>
> National Trust Paths & Trails Team.
>
>
>
>
>
> *GIS Data Officer (Paths) *
>
> *National Trust*
>
> *Email:* olivia.rag...@nationaltrust.org.uk
>
> nationaltrust.org.uk
> <https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationaltrust.org.uk%2F&data=04%7C01%7Colivia.ragone%40nationaltrust.org.uk%7C0a076322c8bb4f7d5b8f08da11662443%7C0fba79b96423460d88eff9c3d4ca2e9f%7C0%7C0%7C637841427628059257%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=p6ZqPWlz7SD60%2BXfZu30bqzC8kKl%2FebG%2FeH5LKWfMwY%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- The National Trust is a regis

Re: [OSM-talk] Automated Edit - Bus stops status link & Bus lines timetable link (Tenerife)

2023-03-26 Thread john whelan
I'm lost here.

We have something in the map and we can associate a website with it.

Why would we need to have permission from the local mappers to do this?

I note locally our bus stops have a reference that does much the same thing
but I don't recall having to canvas local mappers about it.

On a personal note anything that makes catching a bus easier has my vote.

Cheerio John



On Sun, Mar 26, 2023, 12:08 Marc_marc  wrote:

>   On Fri, 2023-03-24 at 20:33 +0100, Sören Reinecke wrote:
> >> If these urls are following a fixed scheme like you mentioned then I
> >> see no need to add the urls
>
> if the url is stable (and this seems to be the case as it is hard-coded
> in the QR-code), i see an added value to be able to get
> the webpage from the stop.
>
> due the fact that the default relation isn't really in use,
> the advantages (having the information from the osm data) outweigh
> the disadvantages (having to delete or update the urls if they change
> unexpectedly)
>
> however this operation is geographically limited, so the author must
> ask the local community for their agreement, and not a global one
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Duplicate Buildings

2023-03-12 Thread john whelan
Many thanks for putting some numbers on this.

Warin's comment would suggest it may also be more than just buildings that
are involved.

For buildings the total number as a percentage is small unfortunately they
tend to cluster so are more of a problem than if they were more spread out.

John

On Sat, Mar 11, 2023, 07:40 Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think an automatic fix of the problem is possible, however it would be
> a good idea to try and find out what the root cause of the problem is -
> bad software, bad imports, bad instructions?
>
> To get an idea of how big the issue is, I did this on a standard
> rendering database:
>
> create table buildings as (select way,osm_id from planet_osm_polygon
> where building is not null)
>
> select a.osm_id, b.osm_id into duplicates from buildings a, buildings b
> where a.osm_id < b.osm_id and a.way ~= b.way and st_equals(a.way,b.way);
>
> This took a few days - probably it could have been done more efficiently
> - and resulted in a list of about 70k buldings world-wide that are exact
> duplicates (geoetry-wise) of other buildings. The list is here:
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/duplicatebuildings.csv
>
> Some buildings are in OSM three or four times (contained i nthe above in
> the form of "a is duplicate of b, b is duplicate of c") but I've
> extracted them in extra files:
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/triplcatebuildings.csv and
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/quadruplicatebuildings.csv)
>
> I don't have the time to analyse the situation in more detail at present
> so if anyone wants to take the above lists as a basis for deeper
> analysis...
>
> Cheers
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Duplicate Buildings

2023-03-05 Thread john whelan
There are many and I have tools that can pick them out in a particular
area.  However to use them I inspect the building visually before deleting
one or the other.  Sometimes if the mapper has less than ten edits to their
name I may even skip adding a change set comment first.

However I do see many cases where the building or way appears to have been
uploaded twice and these I think could be handled by a bot which would save
my time and zap a substantial number.  I don't think anyone could object to
such an automated course of action whereas those that overlap really need
visual inspection to see which should be deleted.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Mar 5, 2023, 15:53 Isaac Boates  wrote:

> It might be better to check for building features which have a very large
> percentage of their area overlapping with another, rather than an exact
> duplicate, just in case there are a few kicking around that are identical
> except for one vertex
>
> Isaac
>
> On Sun, Mar 5, 2023 at 7:05 PM John Whelan  wrote:
>
>> Occasionally I come across a building that has been mapped twice.   A
>> number of them look as if they have been uploaded twice.
>>
>> Could some nice bot expert build one to run through the map and delete
>> any ways that are an exact duplicate even as far as the tags are concerned?
>>
>> The problem comes when doing population counts etc that rely on the
>> number of buildings in a given area.  A duplicated building means the wrong
>> number of vaccines etc get delivered to the area besides cluttering up the
>> map.
>>
>> Thanks John
>> --
>> Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com>
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[OSM-talk] Duplicate Buildings

2023-03-05 Thread John Whelan
Occasionally I come across a building that has been mapped twice.   A 
number of them look as if they have been uploaded twice.


Could some nice bot expert build one to run through the map and delete 
any ways that are an exact duplicate even as far as the tags are concerned?


The problem comes when doing population counts etc that rely on the 
number of buildings in a given area.  A duplicated building means the 
wrong number of vaccines etc get delivered to the area besides 
cluttering up the map.


Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] [automated edit] replace some obviously mistaken surface values by their clear intended meaning

2023-02-11 Thread john whelan
At first glance this seems a good idea but based on my experience as a HOT
validator you have to be careful.

Has the mapper changed their practices already?  Getting fifty emails
telling someone they used upper case two years ago might just put them off
mapping.

A better solution would be overpass the database for these sort of edits
done in the previous seven days.  Then flip one automated email noting the
accepted practice is XYZ but a bot will correct their edits.  If you can
grab the language of the mapper that might help here.

Cheerio John

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 13:24 Marc_marc  wrote:

> Le 11.02.23 à 18:41, Mateusz Konieczny via talk a écrit :
> > I propose to replace following surface tags by doing an automated edit:
>
> II agree with this automated edit.
>
> however, the most common cases should still be reported
> to the editors so that the error is corrected before sending
> and not by mass editing
> I don't know if it is possible but 2 rules could group many cases:
> surface= uppercase -> lowercase
> surface= space -> underscore
>
> Regaards,
> Marc
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] replace some obviously mistaken surface values by their clear intended meaning

2023-02-11 Thread john whelan
Sounds wonderful.

John

On Sat, Feb 11, 2023, 12:49 Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I propose to replace following surface tags by doing an automated edit:
>
> obvious typos:
>
> `surface=paving stones` → `surface=paving_stones`
> `surface=Paving_stones` → `surface=paving_stones`
> `surface=paving_stones:` → `surface=paving_stones`
>
> different form than standard surface value:
>
> `surface=wooden` → `surface=wood`
> `surface=cobblestones` → `surface=cobblestone`
>
> Polish name to English one:
>
> `surface=żwirowa` → `surface=gravel`
> `surface=kostka` → `surface=paving_stones`
> `surface=gruntowa` → `surface=unpaved`
>
> English vs very close to English but actually different:
>
> `surface=asfalt` → `surface=asphalt`
>
> Edit would be automatic, rerun from time to time, split into small
> changeset by geographic areas and run by
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny%20-%20bot%20account/history%20bot%20account
>
> Why it is useful? It helps newbies to avoid becoming confused. It
> protects against such values becoming established. Without drudgery
> that would be required from the manual cleanup. It also makes easier to
> add missing surface= values
>
> Why automatic edit? I have a massive queue (in thousands and tens of
> thousands) of automatically detectable issues which are not reported by
> mainstream validators, require fixes and fix requires review or
> complete manual cleanup.
>
> There is no point in manual drudgery here, with values completely useless.
>
> This values here do NOT require manual overview. If this cases will
> turn out to be an useful signal of invalid editing than I will remain
> reviewing nearby areas where bot edited.
>
> And I fixed some manually and they were not a great sign of a problematic
> data.
>
> Yes, bot edit WILL cause objects to be edited. Nevertheless, as result
> map data quality will improve.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Adoption of OSM geometry as state mapping base

2023-02-09 Thread john whelan
I think the issue is more fit for the purpose.

For critical work the OSM database cannot be relied upon.  We have too many
inexperienced mappers who can inadvertantly corrupt the map.  There are
processes to allow an area to be watched so a mapper can double check any
changes in a specific area.  The map is vandalised from time to time.  The
DWG does a great job but the problem is it cannot be relied upon 100% of
the time as errors will be present until they are removed.

Having said that Stats Canada is quite happy to use building data in Canada
on the basis it is the best available.

So it's better than nowt.  It's fairly easy to add Open Data to it either
directly or download a sample and mix the open data in that way.  I think
some if the NGOs work like that.

The wording is probably to protect OSM from law suits, we don't guarantee
the quality of the data will be good enough for your purposes.

You can run your own database by the way.  Grab a chunk of the map and run
your own updates into it.  This has the advantage that you can use all the
OSM tools and is reasonably well documented.

Going the Legal Working Group path can be lengthy.  They are practically
all volunteers and they have a back log.

So do your TRA (Threat Risk Analysis) and see what you think.  Remember
lawyers are paid to be cautious.

Cheerio John

On Thu, Feb 9, 2023, 19:43 rob potter  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am representing the state transport department Department of Transport
> and Planning (Victoria, Australia) - OpenStreetMap Wiki
> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Department_of_Transport_and_Planning_(Victoria,_Australia)>
>  and
> we are looking to consume the OSM road & rail networks for our operations.
>
> *Lawyers have raised a concern about these conditions, as the road data
> use is supplied to our emergency services fire and ambulance.  We have not
> started using the information but we are implementing a system of
> validation and change detection, then produce an authoritative version for
> other agency consumption.*
> *Unlawful and other unauthorized uses include a clause "Operate dangerous
> businesses such as emergency services or air traffic control, where the use
> or failure of the Services could lead to death, personal injury or
> significant property damage;" and "Store data available through the
> Services in order to evade these Terms (including aiding anyone else in
> doing so); or"*
>
> Please any advice would be greatly appreciated, ultimately we will enhance
> the overall content of OSM in the Victoria, but really do not want to cause
> problems later.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

2023-01-19 Thread john whelan
I seem to recall there are fewer rifles per head of population in the UK.
The problem is more a North American one although with the ease of which
guns can be 3D printed it could be a UK eventually.

On a side issue I wonder if Microsoft's building detector could pick out
telephone boxes in the UK?

Cheerio John

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:40 Nick Whitelegg 
wrote:

>
> Even still, the location of major substations (e.g the 400-132kv type)
> isn't really a secret. I could reel off quite a few in the UK without even
> looking at a map.
>
> Nick
>
>
> --
> *From:* john whelan 
> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 17:38
> *To:* Nick Whitelegg 
> *Cc:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and
> powerlines?
>
> I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for
> transformers isn't quite so strong.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:15 Nick Whitelegg via talk <
> talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>
> I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?
>
> Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when out
> walking or hiking.
>
> And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used
> shows them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of
> continental European countries.
>
> Nick
>
>
> --
> *From:* john whelan 
> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 03:03
> *To:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
>
> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
> in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
> there?
>
> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>
> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

2023-01-19 Thread john whelan
I accept powerlines are fine and visible on other maps but the case for
transformers isn't quite so strong.

Cheerio John

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, 12:15 Nick Whitelegg via talk 
wrote:

>
> I thought the whole point of OSM was to map the ground truth?
>
> Power lines are there, and they are an important navigational aid when out
> walking or hiking.
>
> And besides, just about every commercial mapping provider that I've used
> shows them. The OS does, as do maps that I've seen in a range of
> continental European countries.
>
> Nick
>
>
> --
> *From:* john whelan 
> *Sent:* 19 January 2023 03:03
> *To:* OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?
>
> Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
> through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
> in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
> there?
>
> Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?
>
> I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
> fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

2023-01-19 Thread John Whelan
I suspect you can do a lot less damage to a concrete dam with a rifle 
than a transformer.


As long as we have discussed the matter I think that is all that 
matters. I'm happy and content.


Worse case scenario

A guy called Putin has been targeting them in Ukraine.  Copycat.

Someone shoots out a dozen at minus 20c, two can cut off electricity to 
a city of a million people.  One or two you can replace quickly a dozen 
at the same time you're talking months to restore power.


What sort of idiot would do that?  Well one or two people don't exactly 
love America.  One of the drug cartels whose boss is imprisoned in the US?


Then you have those that would like to overthrow the government or do it 
just for kicks.


Have fun

Cheerio John

Clifford Snow wrote on 1/18/2023 10:35 PM:



On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 7:05 PM john whelan <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle
bullet through them as happened more than once in the US and given
the situation in Europe at the moment is there a risk that
something similar could happen there?

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies
aviation fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.

Thoughts?


I live in one of the states where people fired at and damaged a power 
substation so I'm concerned about the safety of our infrastructure. 
Unfortunately there are many infrastructures that are vulnerable to 
attacks. Such facilities as water plants, dams, bridges, 
transportation, pipelines, hospitals, and a host of others. But I 
believe that mapping them can also help. If you go back to the idea 
that "security through obscurity" I think you'll find that it is just 
an illusion.


BTW - those caught and charged with damaging a power substation here 
were looking to rob some stores. We all assumed it was right wing 
radicals.


Best,
Clifford

--
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us <https://www.snowandsnow.us>
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch


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Re: [OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

2023-01-18 Thread john whelan
Perhaps you could expand on the benefits of mapping them?

Thanks John

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 10:09 PM stevea,  wrote:

> I'd like to say "oh, please..." because this seems a bit harsh.  But I
> understand that people can be sensitive.
>
> But this is OSM and I'd like to believe we live in a world that is more
> free rather than less free.  What's next, do we stop mapping pre-school or
> kindergartens because they have children?
>
> Criminals are going to use maps, yes, that is going to happen.  We mappers
> ourselves are not criminals for mapping.
>
> Map.  Map well.  Criminals will be criminals.  While there are book
> banning people, librarians are not criminals.
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[OSM-talk] Should we be mapping transformers and powerlines?

2023-01-18 Thread john whelan
Apparently you can do a lot of expensive damage by firing a rifle bullet
through them as happened more than once in the US and given the situation
in Europe at the moment is there a risk that something similar could happen
there?

Should we have a process that says some things should not be mapped?

I seem to recall that the location of the pipeline that supplies aviation
fuel to airports is considered an official secret in the UK.

Thoughts?

Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] FYI: Board now requires imports list (in)compatibility with OSM CT (& will work on a template)

2022-11-29 Thread John Whelan

It was merely in response to Greg Troxel's comment.

"In the case of your transit system, what were the key problems, and how
were they overcome?  I suspect that history is very useful for others."

Cheerio John


Dave F wrote on 11/29/2022 3:13 PM:

Sorry, but I'm unclear what that detailed story has to do with my point?

DaveF

On 29/11/2022 16:54, John Whelan wrote:


The story of the Ottawa bus stops...





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Re: [OSM-talk] FYI: Board now requires imports list (in)compatibility with OSM CT (& will work on a template)

2022-11-29 Thread John Whelan
The story of the Ottawa bus stops started when the City decided to 
announce the bus stops in an automated way to assist blind people. To do 
this they went round every bus stop with very accurate GPS equipment so 
the bus stops were measured to within a meter or so accuracy. One or two 
weren’t in quite the right place, being placed in the highway but on the 
whole they were much better than they had been.


Some GTFS files for bus stop positions can be 200 meters out.

I bumped into the head of the transit system and talked about the 
License on the data and his comment was “but we want you to use the data.”


So now we had accurate bus stop data that we couldn’t use because of 
licensing. Bus stop data in OpenStreetMap in Ottawa is important because 
the transit route planning system at the time did not use footpaths and 
would suggest a longer trip to a different bus stop than the closet one.


The Canadian Treasury Board was promoting Open Data and the President of 
the Treasury Board wanted to show how progressive they were so had a 
meeting of a dozen or so people who were thought to use Open Data. I was 
one of them and raised the issue that we couldn’t use their data because 
of the license which surprised a few civil servants who were there.


It took them five years to consult and eventually come up with version 
2.0 of the Open Government Licence – Canada which is the current Open 
Data License.


Statistics Canada sells a lot of data. Want to know where the best place 
to open a new coffee shop is Stats Canada will sell you all sorts of 
data to show you were the best places are. They were interested in 
enriching their data about buildings. How many floors they had etc. and 
had the idea that using OpenStreetMap volunteers would be an inexpensive 
way to enrich their data. Before I retired I worked at Statistics Canada 
and the corporate culture is very different to OpenStreetMap.


We had a meeting which included the City of Ottawa, a couple of people 
from the local University, at least one person from HOT by phone and 
someone from Metrolinx who had added some addresses from Statistics 
Canada’s OpenData portal after examining their Open Data license and the 
requirements of OSM. They were new houses and they wanted them for their 
transit planner. Statistics Canada Open Data is released under the 
Federal government’s Open Data license by the way.


We showed them Ottawa in OSMand in French with French street names, 
politically French is important in Canada and can add expense to a 
project if you need to translate etc. The decision in principle was made 
to import City of Ottawa’s building data into OSM and then enrich it.


It took two years to change the City’s Open Data license to be the same 
as the Federal Government one. There are minor wording changes such as 
City of Ottawa rather than the Crown but basically it’s the same.


During that time I suggested to Statistics Canada someone attending SotM 
in Europe might be useful to make a few contacts. In the event the 
person who was suppose to go was unable to attend was unable to attend 
so his manager went instead.


So everything was lined up ready for the import. Both the City of Ottawa 
and Statistics Canada had put a lot of effort into the project and many 
organisations were looking forward to using the data. Metrolinx had 
studied the licensing and were happy we were OK.


The license was challenged on the import mailing list. Shall we simply 
say the LWG was very nice and came up with a verdict that accepted 
Version 2 of the Open Data license. We’ll pass over all the people 
involved but simply say it took considerable effort and resources.


These days data from most Canadian municipalities released under their 
Open Data license is not eligible for OSM but the same data released 
through the Statistics Canada Open Data is eligible.


The bus stops, well once the Open Data licenses had been sorted out the 
local mappers imported the data.


Any change to the license requirements to import Open Data can have an 
impact and that is a concern. It takes a long time to get things changed 
to line up.



Cheerio John

Dave F via talk wrote on 11/29/2022 10:38 AM:

On 28/11/2022 23:48, Tobias Knerr wrote:
we would like to offer data donors a standard legal text that they 
can use to make their data available to OSM in such a way that we 
would expect it to survive a hypothetical license change.


I'm confused.
If a maintainer of a database wishes to change their licence, they're 
certain to have justifiable reasons for doing so. If it means OSM 
can't use it, so be it. OSM has no jurisdiction.


If it's a licence change by OSM then how can a maintainer of a 
database possibly account for a future, unspecified change who's 
implementation was out of their control?


Could you expand on what you mean by 'legal text'. Is it a legally 
binding contract?


Cheers
DaveF


_

Re: [OSM-talk] FYI: Board now requires imports list (in)compatibility with OSM CT (& will work on a template)

2022-11-28 Thread john whelan
I have concerns about the amount of effort we seem to be asking open data
set creators to make.  I think it took me seven years to get the licensing
correct to be able to import the local bus stops and very early in the
process the head of the transit system said 'but we want you to use our
data.'

Cheerio John

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022, 2:18 PM Amanda McCann, <
amanda.mcc...@osmfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hello fellow OSMers.
>
> As you are no doubt aware, OSM requires that data imports be listed on the
> OSM Wiki ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue ),
> including if the source is “ODbL OK status”.
>
> At the Nov. 2022 OSMF Board meeting (25 Nov), the Board voted that imports
> should, from now on, list whether the data source is compatibly (or
> incompatible) with the OSM Contributor Terms¹.
>
> The Board has also budgeted to commission a template that OSMers can use
> to request that data sources release their data under those terms. That
> will obv. follow later. However given that OSM is mostly volunteer run, I
> don't know if/when that will be ready for you.
>
> The minutes of the meeting have not yet been written, nor accepted, but
> when they are (in about a month), you will find the specifics here):
> https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Board/Minutes/2022-11
>
> ¹
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms
>
> --
> A. McCann
> Secretary
> OpenStreetMap Foundation
>
> Name & Registered Office:
> OpenStreetMap Foundation
> St John’s Innovation Centre
> Cowley Road
> Cambridge
> CB4 0WS
> United Kingdom
> A company limited by guarantee, registered in England and Wales
> Registration No. 05912761
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rent-a-crowd needed JOSM Microsoft store

2022-11-27 Thread john whelan
I forget where but it has been said that it is legal and that is the reason
JOSM is now available via the store.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Nov 27, 2022, 11:43 PM James,  wrote:

> IANAL but GPL v2 does allow to charge for distribution. Is it ethical, lol
> no, would lawyers care? Probably not
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2022, 11:30 PM stevea  wrote:
>
>> Yes, thanks much, James!  (For linking "Reporting Infringement to
>> Microsoft").  I do wonder if simply forking and charging money for existing
>> open-source software is an egregious slap in the face to OSM (JOSM
>> developers, especially), although I'm not an attorney.  So, I'd urge our
>> LWG / legal-beagles to take a look at this, please.
>>
>> On the other hand, if there is something "value-added" to the fork that
>> justifies charging money, maybe it's OK.
>>
>> > On Nov 27, 2022, at 8:26 PM, James  wrote:
>> >
>> > https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/intellectualproperty/infringement
>> >
>> > On Sun, Nov 27, 2022, 11:15 PM john whelan 
>> wrote:
>> > You can only leave a review if you download the software.
>> >
>> > Both are JOSM, one is a fork which costs money which goes to the person
>> who created the fork the other is normal JOSM which is free.
>> >
>> > Cheerio John
>> > 
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rent-a-crowd needed JOSM Microsoft store

2022-11-27 Thread john whelan
You can only leave a review if you download the software.

Both are JOSM, one is a fork which costs money which goes to the person who
created the fork the other is normal JOSM which is free.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Nov 27, 2022, 11:01 PM stevea,  wrote:

> If choosing which version is "legitimate" (or preferred) is important, and
> "leaving a review" is a (one) method for communicating that, I would
> underscore that if you do leave a review, make very clear how one differs
> from the other.
>
> On Nov 27, 2022, at 5:33 PM, john whelan  wrote:
> >
> > Agreed but some do and currently both have one review each so it isn't
> that clear which is the official OpenStreetMap editor.
> >
> > Even a couple more reviews would help.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Cheerio John
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rent-a-crowd needed JOSM Microsoft store

2022-11-27 Thread john whelan
Agreed but some do and currently both have one review each so it isn't that
clear which is the official OpenStreetMap editor.

Even a couple more reviews would help.

Thanks

Cheerio John

On Sun, Nov 27, 2022, 20:27 James  wrote:

> not everyone runs winblows
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2022, 8:19 PM John Whelan  wrote:
>
>> On a windows machine do a search for Microsoft store.  Then search for
>> JOSM.  Download it then you can leave a review.  The more reviews it has
>> the more it looks as if it is the legitimate version.
>>
>> The other version which is a fork of JOSM is called  OpenStreetMap editor
>> and has a JOSM screen shot and costs $5.99 can.
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>> Dave F wrote on 11/27/2022 7:15 PM:
>>
>> Link(s)?
>>
>> On 30/10/2022 18:47, john whelan wrote:
>>
>> There are two versions of JOSM available on the Microsoft store.  One is
>> a fork and costs money the other is the kosher version.
>>
>> It might be helpful if JOSM had a few reviews to make it stand out from
>> the other version.
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rent-a-crowd needed JOSM Microsoft store

2022-11-27 Thread John Whelan
On a windows machine do a search for Microsoft store.  Then search for 
JOSM.  Download it then you can leave a review.  The more reviews it has 
the more it looks as if it is the legitimate version.


The other version which is a fork of JOSM is called  OpenStreetMap 
editor and has a JOSM screen shot and costs $5.99 can.


Thanks John

Dave F wrote on 11/27/2022 7:15 PM:

Link(s)?

On 30/10/2022 18:47, john whelan wrote:
There are two versions of JOSM available on the Microsoft store.  One 
is a fork and costs money the other is the kosher version.


It might be helpful if JOSM had a few reviews to make it stand out 
from the other version.


Thanks John


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[OSM-talk] Rent-a-crowd needed JOSM Microsoft store

2022-10-30 Thread john whelan
There are two versions of JOSM available on the Microsoft store.  One is a
fork and costs money the other is the kosher version.

It might be helpful if JOSM had a few reviews to make it stand out from the
other version.

Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] I need your help please

2022-09-19 Thread john whelan
The changes have been made to the central database.  The tiles or rended
image are recreated later sometimes a few days later.

There is an off line version of the database created roughly roughly once a
day at geofrabrik.de from which you can create your own set of tiles etc.
Depending how urgent it is.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Sep 19, 2022, 5:42 AM Fakhreddine Azzouni, <
azzounifakhredd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Good afternoon, I started using OSM for a tourism project. The idea is
>  make a tour's road map with places from OSM. But some places are not on
> the map so I added them yesterday. I am using a WordPress Plugin to get
> locations From OSM. Unfortunately I couldn't find any of the locations I
> have recently added.
> As this matter is urgent, I would appreciate a reply as soon as possible.
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Re: [OSM-talk] JOSM on Raspberry pi 4

2020-12-21 Thread John Whelan

Thank you for the process.

Cheerio John

James wrote on 2020-12-21 19:15:

wget https://josm.openstreetmap.de/josm-latest.jar

java -jar josm-latest.jar

in a terminal

On Mon., Dec. 21, 2020, 7:13 p.m. John Whelan, <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I don't know enough about the pi to know where to copy it to.
Getting the latest .jar isn't a problem.

Thanks John

James wrote on 2020-12-21 19:11:

https://josm.openstreetmap.de/josm-latest.jar

java -jar josm-latest.jar

On Mon., Dec. 21, 2020, 7:10 p.m. John Whelan,
mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:

It seems to load from "sudo apt-get install josm" but it is
version 14760. thank you Martin Bone you tube. I'm not too
sure where to download the new .jar file to get it to a more
recent version. So technically it will work. The big question
then becomes is it useful? Low power but needs a screen. Can
we leverage it in anyway? I'm thinking if it gets into
schools it might be useful but if it needs a more powerful
machine than the school might purchase can we nudge up the
specs in someway? I know you can use a smartphone but JOSM is
a bit more powerful and you can grab a bit of osm compress it
then load it up on the pi. Not real time but in areas where
there is little activity a 3 or 4 day old file might well be
good enough. I'm thinking Africa here. Solar panel into a
powerbank, run the pi from a powerbank. On a slightly larger
scale solar panel into an instant pot with battery, gives you
enough power to run a pi as well. Instant pots have been run
from solar with battery, the 3 quart pot requires a lower
power level. Can someone come up with a mixture that would
work? Thanks Cheerio John
Oliver Simmons wrote on 2020-12-21 18:48:


You’ll want to turn as much rendering off in JOSM as you can.

Mainly:

1. Disable “Draw boundaries of downloaded area” (This is a
big performance hit for some reason)

2. OSM Data -> Options that affect drawing performance -
disable both antialiasing options.

3. OSM Data -> ditto - “Hide labels when dragging the map”
may also help.

AFAIK other options won’t make much difference, those are
just the main three.

You may also want to experiment with styles, some (such as
“Advanced lane & road attributes” will put a lot more load
on rendering due to their complexity and the transparent parts.

With the RAM & speed upgrades on the Pi4, downloading a lot
of data shouldn’t be much of an issue, only if you try to
look at it all at once.

―

    - Oliver Simmons [https://goodclover.xyz]

*From: *John Whelan <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
*Sent: *21 December 2020 11:30 PM
*To: *OpenStreetMap <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
*Subject: *[OSM-talk] JOSM on Raspberry pi 4

Has anyone tried it?  My thoughts run along the lines of the
pi 400 which has 4 gigs of memory might be interesting,
there are pi4s with 8 gigs available.

If so how do you install it and run it.

Thanks John

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-09 Thread john whelan
In the diverse collection of people we have in OSM you will be hard pressed
not to offend someone.  The views held are very diverse.  Traffic_signal or
traffic_light tagging us an example of very diverse views.  I'm sure
someone will be along and give me the correct way to tag shortly.

I hadn't realised the name Kathleen was one that either gender could use
and I apologise for making an assumption about the gender of the person
using it.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020, 16:00 Clay Smalley  wrote:

> I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:
>
> Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the
> OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
> The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility
> towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best
> evidence of this.
>
> These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman
> what constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what
> offends other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you
> by definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will
> never be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to
> the experts.
>
> Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their
> feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their
> temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women.
> Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.
>
> As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but
> there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of
> conduct yesterday.
>
> -Clay (they/them)
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:
>
>> Hello everybody
>> I hope you are all well
>>
>> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted
>> to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
>> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
>> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
>> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
>> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
>> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
>> diversity.
>>
>> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to
>> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>>
>> On behalf of the signatories
>> Best regards
>>
>> Céline Jacquin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-09 Thread john whelan
No but I am suggesting dealing with it is complex and has to be done over
time.  Do you ban jargon for example?

The danger in Celine's confrontational approach is we throw the baby out
with the dish water.

You have an interesting mind and know the background.  How would you
approach this?

And yes I admit to being white male etc.

Many Thanks for your thoughts.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020, 15:45 Kathleen Lu  wrote:

> > Many females do not map using their own name but will use a male
> sounding name to avoid problems.
>
> John, are you seriously citing this as evidence that there is not
> pervasive misogyny in the OSM community?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

2020-12-09 Thread John Whelan
The issue of diversity is complex.  In Africa many of the locals whilst 
feeling that it would be nice to have all local mappers they recognise 
that the map would not be as complete without the armchair mappers.


Unfortunately when you work in technical areas often you'll see a group 
build up expertise over time.  These people have the frame work if you 
like to to see how things fit together and it is how things like 
overpass have come about.


Fredrick is one of those people who has a great deal of knowledge and 
OpenStreetMap would be much poorer without him.


It does take time to build up expertise and to take part in the 
discussions in a meaningful way.  However using terms such as "*This 
power dynamic leads to a communication style which includes 
misogynistic, hostile, targeting, doxing, unfriendly, competitive, 
intimidating, patronising messaging, which is offensive to us and forces 
many of us to remain as observers and without the confidence to 
participate actively" I think is purely destructive. Recognise that some 
of the wording you will come across is pure jargon. It works because the 
group the communication is taking place is to some extent closed and 
jargon gets the message across effectively and quickly. Communication 
that is more general does need the "can a six year old understand this 
approach". *
I also have an issue with expecting everyone to conform to a set of 
social norms, I can think of at least one mapper who is obsessive over 
tiny details and goes to great lengths to get them right on the map.  
However his social interactions may seem a bit abrupt to some.  His 
mapping contributions though are extremely valuable.


I also have an issue with those who say we don't have enough female 
mappers. Many females do not map using their own name but will use a 
male sounding name to avoid problems.  Hence you cannot say with any 
accuracy just how many mappers are male orfemale.


If you feel that OpenStreetMap is not open enough then there are forks 
that you can join inor you can build your own.


OpenStreetMap does respect local mappers points of view, which I think 
addresses your comments about minorities. Which is why the map uses 
different conventionsin different places.


However that brings us back to the problem of how decisions are made.  
Certainly in Africa the NGOs have played a part in pushing for 
consistent tags and tagging standards and I am happy to accept that 
those who coordinated the efforts where often white, etc etc but they 
did consult with everyone who would talk to them.  Things like purdah 
can be an issue.  Communicating through a six year old because his 
mother was in purdah means mother's views may not be communicated easily.


Cheerio John


Celine Jacquin wrote on 2020-12-09 14:06:

Hello everybody
I hope you are all well

We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have 
reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html) 
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have 
faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest 
obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the 
desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and 
improve diversity.


We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented 
to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing


On behalf of the signatories
Best regards

Céline Jacquin


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Re: [OSM-talk] time to review

2020-12-02 Thread john whelan
I would suggest that if someone could identify a list of mapping tasks
suitable for beginners that might help this sort of thing happening again.

I'd done a fair amount of validation of HOT tasks in the past which I'm
sure are similar and I'm more than aware of the amount of effort needed to
validate after new untrained enthusiastic mappers have been mapping.
Especially when they map only a couple of times.

I'm also aware that it does take a lot of knowledge and resources to clean
up afterwards.

Do we need a half page introduction to OSM?  Something along the lines of
if you are organising some sort of mapathon these are things you need to
consider and theses are the sort of things that have caused problems in the
past.  I get the feeling the enthusiastic organisers are going to do it
anyway but it help help a bit.

It doesn't help the present situation but it might help prevent more
problems in the future.

Cheerio John


On Wed, Dec 2, 2020, 16:29 Mario Frasca  wrote:

> Hi Rory,
>
> let's include the list, so you're talking with the whole community, not
> just to me.
>
> BACKGROUND: we're trying to have the YouthMappers Chapter of the
> University of Panama consider they're mapping within OSM, that there's a
> local community of mappers already mapping, and with some experience in
> different fields.
>
> unfortunately, the YMUP Chapter refuses to reply to comments to their
> changesets, or to consider complaints about their low quality of edits, and
> the sheer mass of beginners they throw into not-too-simple tasks.  recently
> they had their yearly "Gis Day", please don't ask me what it is, because I
> don't know, only that there's a hashtag being used once a year by the
> YouthMappers UP Chapter.  also please don't ask me who's inside this
> chapter, because I don't know.
>
> when Mateusz wrote to i...@youthmappers.org about their organized editing
> activity without declaration of intents, the result of his writing was that
> HOT opened two projects on top of two areas we from the community were
> editing using the tasking manager from tareas.openstreetmap.co, forcing
> us to clean up the edits while they were coming in.  that's Santiago and
> Colón.
>
> in Santiago we reverted several changesets, and made the effort to close
> their project so they would stay away from the work which was anyway almost
> complete.
>
> in Colón we stopped editing downtown, leaving it to the YMUP Chapter.
>
> there's still no published plan from the chapter, Rory says that they are
> reviewing the tasks they had opened, but apart from beginner mapper
> agreenish <https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/agreenish>, arguably adding
> to the mass of mistakes, I don't see much editing activity in either
> project.
> I will write a diary entry, with images, and will try to make it a
> structured presentation of what goes on here.  there's statistical data
> I've collected that shows just how organized the edits from YMUP, and I
> find it quite insulting, the mismatch between the words by YouthMappers
> International, the call for patience by HOT, and the continued
> self-boasting by this local Chapter, while we need to do the cleaning up.
>
> you know … I am editing Morocco, that's more relaxing.  hopefully no
> YouthMappers there.
>
> ciao,
>
> Mario
>
>
> On 02/12/2020 15:52, Rory Nealon wrote:
>
> Hi Mario,
>
> Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.  I will try and contact the
> chapter and get an answer for you.  The last I heard was that they had
> begun to validate the tasks they had created.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Rory
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 4:53 PM Mario Frasca  wrote:
>
>> Dear Rory,
>>
>> let me insist, I wish to have an estimate of how long we should wait,
>> for the YMUP to review their edits?
>>
>> as you have read from his complaint to YMI, Markusz assumes something
>> like "at the end of the day", even if he wrote the complaint 4 days
>> after the edit — which he fixed himself.
>>
>> maybe too strict myself, because I would say "the next day", which could
>> be "the next available day".
>>
>> in particular since this looks like episodic edits, not ongoing
>> activities.
>>
>> so, what is the time we should allow before concluding they abandoned
>> the location?
>>
>> a week?  (slow, but could fit in a low activity group)
>>
>> a month?  (very slow, one forgets what they were doing)
>>
>> a year?  (ah? next group, please?)
>>
>> best regards, Mario Frasca
>>
>>
>
> --
>

Re: [OSM-talk] Can you recommend good introduction to JOSM for 100% osm newbie?

2020-10-05 Thread john whelan
I think we underestimate new mappers.  JOSM takes a little more time to set
up true enough but once set up new mappers can be quite productive.  I
think it is best if you limit them to adding one or two features at a time
but for adding buildings nothing beats it with the buildings_tool plugin.

The number of misshapped, mistagged, untagged buildings in OSM is testament
to the difficulties they have with other editors.

Highways, I think it is iD that offers many choices of tags but do we
really need rural highways in Africa to be tagged as unlit?


Cheerio John

On Mon, Oct 5, 2020, 06:25 Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 05/10/2020 08:57, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>
> On 5. Oct 2020, at 00:58, Michael Booth  
>  wrote:
> Not sure I'd recommend JOSM for a 100% OSM newbie unless there was a specific 
> reason or feature required when editing.
>
>
>
> I would, because they will have to learn from scratch anyway, so why not 
> starting with the most popular (by numbers of edits), most powerful, most 
> versatile, closest to the community consensus and longest standing (i.e. most 
> reliable that it will remain) editor?
>
> Telling potential new contributors that they need to use JOSM to
> contribute to OSM will have two effects:
>
>1. It'll put lots of people off contributing to OSM at all.
>2. It'll cause lots of errors in OSM where people don't understand
>what they're doing do things by accident.
>
> All tools have their strengths and weaknesses and it makes sense to use
> the right tool for the job in each case.  JOSM is great for some things - I
> regularly use 4 different OSM editors on a regular basis and by some
> measure of "most edits" JOSM may well be "the editor that I use most", but
> I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't familiar with the basics in OSM
> at all yet.  People need to find out how "what they see in the real world"
> and "what they see on a map" relate to "what data is actually in OSM" and
> JOSM really isn't good at explaining, or in some cases even representing,
> that.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
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Re: [OSM-talk] A Call to Correct Narratives about Geospatial Work in the Philippines

2020-09-04 Thread john whelan
I have noticed that HOT does tend to promote the idea that HOT mapping is
bringing maps to areas that haven't been mapped before.  The emphasis is on
enthusiasm and tapping into the mappers before they move on to something
else.  This approach does get a fair bit of mapping done and the quality
side is improving.

I suspect that mix that in with a journalistic approach that tends to be
cost driven and simplify and the result is what you see.

There are some more serious HOT mappers and as you note quite a few
contributions to OpenStreetMap come from trained professional mappers
working for governments.

I think all we can do is recognise there is a range of contributors to
OpenStreetMap but how you get this recognised I'm not sure.  Talk nicely to
the BBC perhaps and ask them nicely to create a program on the subject?

Create a video?  To get a professional looking video is more complex that
it might sound at first glance.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, 10:08 Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Last September 1, Amazon Web Services (AWS) released an episode of their
> documentary series Now Go Build which highlighted the work done by the
> Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team in the Philippines, especially in mapping
> the town of Guagua, in the province of Pampanga.
>
> You can see AWS' video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqQwEOaKRas
>
> Several members of the OSM-PH community however have observed that there
> are missing and problematic narratives in the video related to the story it
> tells of geospatial and humanitarian workers in the country.
>
> Therefore, some of us have prepared and released the following statement:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/a/aa/A_Call_to_Correct_Narratives_about_Geospatial_Work.pdf
>
> Regards,
> Eugene
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Re: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

2020-08-09 Thread john whelan
I honestly can't see any benefit.  Splitting the data into two places adds
the danger of it getting out of sync.

Standard naming conventions would be nice but defining the standard name is
practically impossible.  Compare taginfo to the map features wiki page.
One problem with map features is what is written is often one person's idea
of what the standard name should be.

And different features really are called difference things in different
countries.  It can be difficult to stretch a "standard" name to cover many
things.

For example in Canada many highways have wide shoulders to dump snow on in
winter.  In summer they are often used by cyclists but they aren't cycle
lanes by any stretch of imagination even though some are paved.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 15:04 pangoSE  wrote:

> Could you reply with your arguments in favor of the current one2one tag
> model system in the other thread where I listed the benefits as I see them?
>
> E.g. permanent unique ids, talk pages if we want that for every osmid,
> SPARQL support, standardization benefits "riding the current ride in open
> data", scripting support for botmakers, and above all support for
> references and linking interactively to other data sources.
> Bots are very useful e.g. to notify an editor of a possible tagging
> mistake or checking urls of references. Martin could also reference an
> image in Wikimedia commons directly on the statement it relates to.
>
> Unique Qids for every osm object that is decoupled from the underlying
> osmid gives some possibility we don't have today regarding integration with
> e.g. wikidata.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9 augusti
> 2020 20:14:03 CEST)
>>
>> It still fails to provide even a single benefit over the current
>> situation.
>>
>> Aug 9, 2020, 20:11 by pang...@riseup.net:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Originalmeddelande 
>> Från: pangoSE
>> Skickat: 9 augusti 2020 15:40:41 CEST
>> Till: talk@openstreetmap.org
>> Ämne: Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM
>>
>> This is another good reason to abandon this suggestion in favor of our
>> own wikibase instance.
>>
>> Philip Barnes  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:12:21
>> CEST)
>> >On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote:
>>
>> Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object,
>> does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the
>> editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it
>> offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn
>> off to new contributors on the steep learning curve(which is already
>> pretty high) to contributing to osm.
>> This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a
>> post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag.
>>
>> >This leads me to a fairly fundamental question, what if a mapper does
>> >not want to be associated with wikidata and refuses to sign up?
>> >Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>> --
>> Skickat från min Android-enhet med k9.
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-08-02 Thread john whelan
If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it
purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good
reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about
Flash.

I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that
could cause problems for our mappers.

I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning
something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see
continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we
are asking people to install should be taken into account.

Cheerio John

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE  wrote:

> Is this the platform you are targeting?
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIR
>
> Its proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why
> even consider such a move?
>
> I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so
> special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as
> a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?
>
> The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.
>
> I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and
> therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20
> mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require
> proprietary software.
>
> You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of
> the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time
> convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be
> wrong.
>
> I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not
> outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important
> when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO.
> If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run
> without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.
>
> I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires
> proprietary software to run.
>
> Cheers
> pangoSE
> PS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd,
> StreetComplete and rarely iD.
>
>
> Richard Fairhurst  skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22
> CEST)
>>
>> Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
>> > Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to
>> > continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful.
>> > Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This
>> > money is better spent on other uses.
>>
>> The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to
>> a supported one (AIR).
>>
>> On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is
>> by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is
>> proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a
>> $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now.
>> Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code
>> on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020)
>> changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.
>>
>> (I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets -
>> 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how
>> difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days.
>> That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not
>> because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I
>> suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500
>> then we would snap your hand off.)
>>
>> Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of
>> the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The
>> reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of
>> developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of
>> sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I
>> believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there is a hard
>> deadline for that sustained work (i.e. Flash Player switch-off at the end
>> of the year). It's not a project that can just be done in evenings here and
>> there. That enables further, unfunded developments in the future, and in
>> turn I hope the tradition of other editors taking inspiration from P2 can
>> continue - it's not for nothing that JOSM has a Potlatch 2 style and a
>> "Potlatch mode" for editing.
>>
>> But you are, o

Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

2020-08-01 Thread John Whelan
Working on old code is always difficult. IBM got to the point of 
removing a bug to their mainframe operating system on average introduced 
a new bug.


Then you get into the testing side of things.

The flash side of potlatch is one that given the number of editors using 
it and alternatives available to them today may not be a good return on 
investment and I think that should be weighed up.


Nomination I think is essential and if it can be expanded so much the 
better.


osm2pgsql is not something I have direct experience with but I suspect 
it is one of the infrastructure things that many other things depend on.


The learning curve on old code is steep and if you have someone who 
knows the code then I think use them if you possibly can.  I've seen a 
consultant been brought in to make a change and on half way through the 
second day one of the programmers walked up to him and asked him what 
the change was.  The consultant was pointed to the line of code that 
needed to be altered and it took a few seconds to make the change. The 
consultant was trying to understand what the entire program did before 
making any changes in case it had an impact which was the correct thing 
for the consultant to do but experience with the software makes things 
much faster.


Oh and I've seen someone say we can do that in half the time and half 
the cost.  Problem was they didn't understand the problems involved or 
what needed to be done.  They were fired a week later when it didn't 
work but that didn't solve the program problem.


Have fun

Cheerio John

Frederik Ramm wrote on 2020-08-01 19:40:

Hi,

nice to see you rescue a few worthwhile things that have fallen through
the cracks of the Microgrant programme.


During the Microgrants process, there were proposals that didn’t make
it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM infrastructure”
process,

Are you planning to take the funds for these projects out of the
"Pineapple Grant" money, or out of the regular budget?


The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy.

I think that "trusted long-term volunteers" is key here, and somewhat of
a weak point at the same time.

I notice that all three proposals are very short on hard deliverables;
what they mostly promise is working a certain number of hours on a
certain thing but there is no guarantee that, or to what extent, the
thing is going to be achieved. Richard's proposal is the clearest here
("The result will be a version of Potlatch 2 that can be run on Mac and
Windows laptops"), whereas Jochen and Sarah only commit to working on
something, not to actually achieving it. This means we'll pay them no
matter what.

Now this is all fine because we have reason to believe that every one of
the three proposals will be a good investment and even if a goal could
not be achieved, the money would at least land with people who have done
a lot of volunteer stuff for OSM in the past. But the criteria are fuzzy
- why do we trust these three people that if we give them money to work
on something it will be worth it? Assume someone came along saying wait
a minute, I can do the same for half the money! And then we would say,
err, umm, sorry, no, we don't trust you in the same way we trust these
"trusted long-term volunteers".

Looking forward, it might become necessary to define deliverables more
clearly and make payment conditional on results having been achieved,
rather on time having been spent. But if you're lucky...


In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working Group
(EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project guidance and
budget management for such projects.

... the EWG can take over that job ;)

Bye
Frederik



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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

2020-07-25 Thread John Whelan
Looking at it from a TRA (Threat Risk Assessment) point of view 
OpenStreetMap is not totally dependent on one central database being up 
and working.


The primary database is fed by edits but if the database happens to get 
encrypted by Malware the backup and copies are still there.  The tiles 
on the tile server will still display, OSMAND will still work etc.


We strongly suspect that we are not running pure ISO standard SQL, which 
is fine but that does mean we need to take into account other linked 
databases so it would not just be the cost of the central database but 
many other servers and databases that would need to align and that is 
not trivial.  Some other users will have budgets and capacity to move 
others will not.  There is a lot of documentation tied back to the 
existing system which would need to be looked over.  Change management 
is not always simple.


For good database performance we need memory and lots of it so that 
rules out playing with SQL server express.


My concern that we weren't exactly mainstream with our database size has 
been reassured that there are other databases running on the same 
software that are larger.


Since we deal with a large number of new mappers who do odd things I get 
the impression that our procedures are robust and to be honest quite a 
lot of security is good procedures.


So thank you for your inputs, especially those who raised or addressed 
specific issues.


Cheerio John

Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote on 2020-07-25 08:07:

And database size limit is just a start :)

It is artificially limited to 1G of RAM. I am curious how long planet 
import

with 1GB of RAM would run :)

Jul 25, 2020, 13:31 by jwhelan0...@gmail.com:

And as we start to fill the database with buildings even those
might not fit.

Thanks John

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 05:19 Hartmut Holzgraefe mailto:hart...@php.net>> wrote:

On 24.07.20 23:55, john whelan wrote:
> Microsoft SQL Server Express is a free limited version of
SQL server
> that may well do for many users.

reading express edition limitations I see:

* Maximum relational database size: 10GB

That would only be enough for the smallest of OSM regional
extracts ...

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

2020-07-25 Thread john whelan
And as we start to fill the database with buildings even those might not
fit.

Thanks John

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 05:19 Hartmut Holzgraefe  wrote:

> On 24.07.20 23:55, john whelan wrote:
> > Microsoft SQL Server Express is a free limited version of SQL server
> > that may well do for many users.
>
> reading express edition limitations I see:
>
> * Maximum relational database size: 10GB
>
> That would only be enough for the smallest of OSM regional extracts ...
>
> --
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

2020-07-24 Thread John Whelan

Thank you Hartmut,

my expertise is not in GIS databases so this is helpful to know.  My 
experience is much more to do with straight SQL databases doing none GIS 
work on a variety of platforms.


Cheerio John

Hartmut Holzgraefe wrote on 2020-07-24 18:49:

On 25.07.20 00:16, Alexandre Oliveira wrote:

Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically 
anything to

it.

That's not entirely true. SQL is a language but every database
implements its own dialect, i.e., some query keywords implemented in
MSSQL might not be available in MySQL/MariaDB and vice-versa.




SQL is a "standard" only in so far as developers are somewhat
interchangeable between products.

There is nothing that prevents RDBMS implementations from adding
features on top of the standard, and most of the standard features
are optional anyway.

E.g. the actual ISO SQL standard for stored procedures is only really 
implemented by IBM/DB2, MySQL and MariaDB, while all other RDBMS 
products implement their own procedure languages (and I can't even

blame them, as the ISO SQL standard syntax feels as if it got
stuck in the old BASIC days).

The key question though would be: is MS SQL Server GIS support
on par with PostGIS?

My impression so far was that it provides just a little bit more
than what the OGC 1.1 standard requires.

That would put it in the same league as MySQL and MariaDB, maybe
slightly ahead, but very far below what PostGIS provides.

(Disclaimer: I'm working for MariaDB as a support engineer, and
have been working for MySQL before, so I may a little bit biased.
But even I would always recommend the PostgreSQL / PostGIS combo
over MariaDB for all but the most basic GIS applications)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

2020-07-24 Thread john whelan
You need to define the requirements and if having open source software is a
top priority that's fine.

If reliability and security are critical then you have to start balancing
things out.

In general UNIX based solutions do not have the same tools available in
Windows but with a skilled administrator they can be made reasonably
reliable and secure but a higher level of skill is required in the UNIX
environment.  Skilled administrator time from volunteers is not expensive
having said that we should be asking them to do more work than we could?

The 300 users and 600 accounts was actually on a Microsoft SQL server where
each database user was given their own account and password.   No record of
who was given which account was kept and over the years people came and
left.  I agree the admins were at fault but over the years there had been a
number of admins some had more expertise than others and to an outsider
knowing which knew what they were doing and which were basically bluffing
is not always easy.  We had probably fifty database administrators besides
my team all doing their own thing.  On the Microsoft SQL databases where we
used Windows operating system groups if someone left they were removed from
the group and we could check with their admin if they were part of the
section or not.

Microsoft SQL Server Express is a free limited version of SQL server that
may well do for many users.  Having said that the main advantage of SQL is
it is a standard so you should be able to connect practically anything to
it.

For development Microsoft visual studio is normally recognised as the gold
standard for development environments and remember Github is now owned by
Microsoft.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 17:03 Yves  wrote:

> But face it, philosophy is now also part of the discussion. And that's
> important.
> Yves
>
> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:50:22 GMT+02:00, john whelan 
> a écrit :
>>
>> If the database was smaller and less infrastructure was reliant on it
>> working I would agree with you that philosophically open source software
>> makes a lot of sense.
>>
>> However your argument is philosophical rather than logical.
>>
>> Note I'm merely requesting that the idea be examined.  I am not saying I
>> know what is best and all the things that need to be considered.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 14:35 Yves  wrote:
>>
>>> You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database
>>> management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot of
>>> sense.
>>>
>>> Yves
>>>
>>> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan <
>>> jwhelan0...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder
>>>> if we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.
>>>>
>>>> At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered
>>>> Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other
>>>> database systems.
>>>>
>>>> The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
>>>> monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
>>>> Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
>>>> solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.
>>>>
>>>> We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a
>>>> lot of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.
>>>> Towards the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on
>>>> the UNIX side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a
>>>> start.
>>>>
>>>> Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
>>>> security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
>>>> Internet.
>>>>
>>>> We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
>>>> programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
>>>> government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
>>>> grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
>>>> that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
>>>> knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
>>>> special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
>>>> trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.
>>>>
>>>> Initially t

Re: [OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

2020-07-24 Thread john whelan
If the database was smaller and less infrastructure was reliant on it
working I would agree with you that philosophically open source software
makes a lot of sense.

However your argument is philosophical rather than logical.

Note I'm merely requesting that the idea be examined.  I am not saying I
know what is best and all the things that need to be considered.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 14:35 Yves  wrote:

> You're probably have some very good points when it comes to database
> management, but running an open map on open source software makes a lot of
> sense.
>
> Yves
>
> Le 24 juillet 2020 20:11:46 GMT+02:00, john whelan 
> a écrit :
>>
>> All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder
>> if we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.
>>
>> At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered
>> Sybase, Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other
>> database systems.
>>
>> The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
>> monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
>> Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
>> solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.
>>
>> We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a lot
>> of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.  Towards
>> the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on the UNIX
>> side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a start.
>>
>> Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
>> security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
>> Internet.
>>
>> We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
>> programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
>> government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
>> grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
>> that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
>> knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
>> special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
>> trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.
>>
>> Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they
>> hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the
>> most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but
>> got completely rewritten over time.
>>
>> On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions
>> to an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For
>> other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which
>> made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was
>> supposed to be accessed operationally by 300 people. The problem was there
>> were 600 accounts and no one knew which ones were needed or which could be
>> deleted to reduce the surface area for attack.
>>
>> The integrated Microsoft monitoring system made reliability much better.
>> There were far fewer problems on the Microsoft SQL side than on the UNIX /
>> other database side and they were easier to fix.  One of my less expert
>> database admins was shocked by the ease of which he caught the problem and
>> corrected it by himself after an alert.  It gave him a bit of confidence as
>> well.
>>
>> We changed to PostgreSQL in 2009.  The size of the database was much
>> smaller then.
>>
>> One thing we noticed was on the database tuning side.  SQL server worked
>> better if you just left it alone and didn't try to tune it.  It would check
>> what was in memory rather than go out to the disk drives and that made a
>> big difference to performance.  We measure disk access in milliseconds and
>> memory access in nanoseconds.  One is ten thousand times smaller than the
>> other.
>>
>> On the reliability side there is a set of guidelines that are basically
>> common sense.  I forget the formal (ISO?) name but many organisations have
>> seen considerable savings in money and in reliability by using them.  I met
>> the English guy who originated them at a Microsoft presentation.  They can
>> be applied to any environment.
>>
>> I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is
>> close to it.  From a reliability point of view my professional hat says
>> this is not where you want to be. You want to b

[OSM-talk] Heresy - pure discussion

2020-07-24 Thread john whelan
All this talk about databases and servers and sysadmins makes me wonder if
we should reconsider our choice of operating systems and databases.

At one time in the past I ran a Database support group that covered Sybase,
Oracle, Microsoft SQL server, ingres and half a dozen other database
systems.

The UNIX side, some twenty or so servers ran software that in theory
monitored the databases.  In practise it never really was upto date.
Microsoft also had a very nice monitoring tool that monitored and suggested
solutions.  I've dropped an example report below.

We ran probably fifty SQL server database servers and I spent quite a lot
of time maxing the memory on a server then consolidating servers.  Towards
the end we had far more data running on SQL server than we did on the UNIX
side.  The servers were cheaper for the same performance for a start.

Many of the UNIX based servers had default passwords set which made
security a problem.  Fortunately they were protected by an air gap from the
Internet.

We had an IBM mainframe in the mix with an old database on it.  The
programmers gradually retired.  I was lucky and identified another
government department that was switching away from it and we managed to
grab a handful of programmers etc from them.  Then a couple of years later
that DBA retired.  You need to think of the future.  Will I be able to get
knowledgeable staff if I need to?  We had to pay the company to run a
special course in Ottawa and that was not cheap by the time we put the
trainer up in a hotel and paid his airfare from the states.

Initially the Microsoft side suffered from lack of security but they
hardened the operating system and SQL server to a point where it was the
most secure combination.  Microsoft SQL server was originally Sybase but
got completely rewritten over time.

On the support side my staff found that once we had set the permissions to
an operating system group we just had to add people to the group.  For
other databases each person had to be given permissions individually which
made for finger problems.  The classic was one secure database that was
supposed to be accessed operationally by 300 people. The problem was there
were 600 accounts and no one knew which ones were needed or which could be
deleted to reduce the surface area for attack.

The integrated Microsoft monitoring system made reliability much better.
There were far fewer problems on the Microsoft SQL side than on the UNIX /
other database side and they were easier to fix.  One of my less expert
database admins was shocked by the ease of which he caught the problem and
corrected it by himself after an alert.  It gave him a bit of confidence as
well.

We changed to PostgreSQL in 2009.  The size of the database was much
smaller then.

One thing we noticed was on the database tuning side.  SQL server worked
better if you just left it alone and didn't try to tune it.  It would check
what was in memory rather than go out to the disk drives and that made a
big difference to performance.  We measure disk access in milliseconds and
memory access in nanoseconds.  One is ten thousand times smaller than the
other.

On the reliability side there is a set of guidelines that are basically
common sense.  I forget the formal (ISO?) name but many organisations have
seen considerable savings in money and in reliability by using them.  I met
the English guy who originated them at a Microsoft presentation.  They can
be applied to any environment.

I think we either run the largest PostgreSQL database there is or it is
close to it.  From a reliability point of view my professional hat says
this is not where you want to be. You want to be more mainstream with
someone else being on the bleeding edge.

So the heresy would be look at the implications of changing to Microsoft
SQL server in the cloud.  There is lots of documentation and given that
Microsoft has worked closely with us in the past the cost might not be too
bad.  I do understand that we have a large investment in our current set up
both as an organisation and personally and many will consider this as
heresy but now is probably the time to think about it.

Cheerio John









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Re: [OSM-talk] Paid mapping

2020-06-22 Thread John Whelan
I've seen a lot of poor mapping get replicated in this way by newcomers 
copying the tags.


Cheerio John

Mike Thompson wrote on 2020-06-22 8:25 PM:



On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 4:12 PM Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


Jun 23, 2020, 00:07 by miketh...@gmail.com
<mailto:miketh...@gmail.com>:

"except for the preceding, we follow OSM community norms."

This should be enough to ban of all their mapping accounts until
changing their plan
(I assume that they either backtracked that or stopped editing)

They said that they were going to do some additional training for 
their staff.  They did give some indication they would make some 
changes, but I didn't follow up. Part of the problem is that another, 
non local, mapper got really enthusiastic a couple of years ago about 
changing all unpaved roads to highway=track.  Amazon Logistics people 
see this, and if they are adding a road, they perhaps compare it to 
the existing content nearby, and try to mimic that tagging.


Mike


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Re: [OSM-talk] Paid mapping

2020-06-22 Thread John Whelan
> In case of noticing low quality paid mapping - please, at least leave 
a changeset comment.


I think this is a sensible approach that I'll use in future rather than 
leave an email.


On the comments about the classification we are talking specifically 
about Africa where it is much more difficult to judge the importance of 
a highway from imagery.


/Pierre Béland /came up with a classification scheme in partnership with 
many players. /


/https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa

It has stood the test of time and is normally accepted as the tagging 
standard for highways in Africa.


Many Thanks

Cheerio John

Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote on 2020-06-22 5:16 PM:


In case of noticing low quality paid mapping - please, at least leave 
a changeset comment.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Paid mapping

2020-06-22 Thread john whelan
The ones that stood out were highways that connected settlements to other
settlements on the map.  These had been changed from highway unclassified
surface unpaved to highway=track by a mapper with Apple connections.

They seemed to have retagged a fair number and I don't honestly recall
exactly where they where.  I seem to recall sending an email to the mapper
concerned pointing towards the Africian highway Wiki and assumed that was
the end of the tale.

Today I was looking at a very remote hamlet and was surprised to see it was
connected by a highway=tertiary that terminated in the hamlet.  I'm not
saying it was incorrectly labelled but being curious I had a look at the
history.  If it has been mapped by someone who only mapped twice on a HOT
project that's one thing but this highway had been tagged unclassified then
retagged to tertiary by a mapper who maps for Apple according to his OSM
page and had some 6,000 edits to their name.  It actually says on the
highway from Bing not local knowledge.

When I see two different Apple mappers whom I assume are paid mappers
essentially retagging things rather than mapping new things it raises the
question in my mind are they doing this to improve the map in some way or
are they measured by how many highways have their tag on them?

If it is the latter then a different metric for paid mappers might get more
useful results in the map.

A conventional OSM mapper normally maps to add detail or correct glaring
errors in the map.  A paid mapper might not have the same point of view.

I know I'm cynical and I'm not even sure there is much that can be done
about it.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020, 16:12 Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Please clarify: are the Apple mappers 1) changing the ways to
> highway=track, or 2) changing ways that are currently highway=track to
> something else?
>
> I would support #2 in any case where the way connects settlements, since
> we have always defined highway=track as a way that is used for agriculture,
> forestry etc., not for travel between settlements.
>
> – Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 11:17 AM John Whelan 
> wrote:
>
>> I've noticed a number of highways being changed in Africa from
>> unclassified to track and from unclassified to tertiary.The ones I've
>> noticed are Apple mappers usually with the comment of from Bing and often
>> the highways connect settlements so should be a minimum of unclassified or
>> path but not track.
>>
>> African highway wiki  says it is difficult to classify highways without
>> local knowledge above unclassified.  Track is fairly easy it doesn't
>> connect settlements according to the wiki.
>>
>> Do I get the impression we are talking targets here?  The paid mappers
>> have to do so many edits to meet their targets and changing the
>> classification using Bing is easier than adding to the map?
>>
>> Do we care?  Is it is just something to be aware of.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Cheerio John
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[OSM-talk] Paid mapping

2020-06-22 Thread John Whelan
I've noticed a number of highways being changed in Africa from 
unclassified to track and from unclassified to tertiary.    The ones 
I've noticed are Apple mappers usually with the comment of from Bing and 
often the highways connect settlements so should be a minimum of 
unclassified or path but not track.


African highway wiki  says it is difficult to classify highways without 
local knowledge above unclassified.  Track is fairly easy it doesn't 
connect settlements according to the wiki.


Do I get the impression we are talking targets here?  The paid mappers 
have to do so many edits to meet their targets and changing the 
classification using Bing is easier than adding to the map?


Do we care?  Is it is just something to be aware of.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

2020-03-12 Thread John Whelan
But then you're often talking about a HOT mapper who might not have done 
any mapping for three years.


I must confess when validating HOT projects if I saw a mapper had done 
something glaringly wrong and it was more than a week before noting the 
response rate to a changeset message was less than 1% I may have simply 
corrected the work.


I haven't been on the ground in Africa but I suspect the number of 
villages a kilometre apart connected by a one kilometre motorway is not 
high.  If have I reclassified someone's private motorway  I apologise.


I think we have talked around the subject enough and it should be left 
to the local mappers to decide what to do.


Thanks John

Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote on 2020-03-12 7:17 PM:




Mar 12, 2020, 23:54 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:



sent from a phone

On 12. Mar 2020, at 17:42, Marc M. 
wrote:

we may delete all fixme=name for all object without a name tag



I agree that fixme=name for missing names is pointless and could
be removed (although Andy has a point about not knowing someone’s
workflow, so for safety you could spare those added in the past
1-3 months). If there are other questions concerning the name it
would obviously have been better if they had been more explicit
about these potential problems in the fixme tag, but still, if
someone has added a fixme=name on an object with a name we should
keep it.

Though unspecific fixme=name is not very useful, I would ask in 
changeset that added this

what exactly is wrong/suspicious if I would encounter it during editing.

And yes, fixme=name on object without name is likely completely useless.
But I would also consider asking people adding it whatever it is used 
in any way.



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Re: [OSM-talk] fixme=name

2020-03-12 Thread john whelan
I'm looking in Mali, looking at the history of a sample I'd say they were
HOT mapped and many are more than four years old.

Cheerio John



On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 09:29, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 12/03/2020 13:09, john whelan wrote:
>
> I'm seeing a fair number of settlements with this fixme tagged on them and
> I'm not sure what the logic is.
>
> There are 39k "fixme=name" worldwide.  I suspect usage varies greatly
> worldwide; it would be useful to know which ones you're looking at.
>
> The nearest few to me (at https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Rxh , for info)
> seem to be either "name from one source disagrees with name from another
> source, needs more investigation" or "name was copied from an
> out-of-copyright map and is probably rubbish".
>
>
>
> I would have thought it is fairly simple to search for place=village
> without a name tag or am I missing something?
>
> It depends.  I'm guessing based on your previous list discussions, but
> perhaps someone's been remotely mapping areas that HOT or similar projects
> have an interest in, have identified a settlement from imagery but
> (obviously) do not know its name?
>
> Adding "fixme=name" doesn't add any value when the "name" tag is missing.
> as everyone can see that the name tag is missing.  Also, adding 1000s of
> new fixmes to an area (that add no value) will overwhelm the existing ones
> that aren't obvious (and I'm speaking as someone who regularly looks at
> local fixmes when out and about).  That said, I wouldn't mass-delete such
> fixmes either as you don't know what workflows people are using locally to
> try and correct these.
>
> With regard to searching, if someone is searching for a village by name
> then clearly they won't find it if it is unnamed, regardless of the search
> method.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
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[OSM-talk] fixme=name

2020-03-12 Thread john whelan
I'm seeing a fair number of settlements with this fixme tagged on them and
I'm not sure what the logic is.

I would have thought it is fairly simple to search for place=village
without a name tag or am I missing something?

Thanks John
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[OSM-talk] Please be gentle with newbies

2020-03-03 Thread john whelan
These days I'm retired and use my old age pensioner bus pass to grab a free
coffee.  Often there are strings attached like a group of politicans or
journalists etc. floating around.

Today I got cornered by one who had been on the receiving end of a
communication from a mapper saying they had made a mistake on their first
attempt at mapping.

It was a couple of years ago and the message was a little on the aggressive
side.  The receiver still remembers it clearly and in their mind OSM was a
well this not the place to use those sort of words.

When you send a message to a mapper you don't know who they are.  You are
representing OpenStreetMap when you send a message so please put your
passion to one side and be gentle with the poor things if only so I can
enjoy my free coffee in peace.

I do sympathize, I've come across a lot of suboptimal mapping in my time
and mentally expressed exactly the same thoughts that were expressed but I
do try to count to ten before sending a polite note that says did you
really mean to map this this way?  Have you read the wiki here which gives
guidance?

And yes I know those who read this mailing list would always be polite but
I couldn't think where else to post it.

Thanks John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Testing torrents for the planet dump

2020-02-09 Thread John Whelan

My concern would be more the volume of data we have whirling round.

Smaller torrents of each country might be more useful and I'd have to 
get my head around picking up the new one each week.  I'm running 
qBittorrent if that is of any use.


Cheerio John

Christian Quest wrote on 2020-02-09 12:42 PM:


Le 09/02/2020 à 18:26, Maarten Deen a écrit :

On 2020-02-09 16:17, Christian Quest wrote:

A couple of weeks ago, I've (re) started sharing planet dump files
using Bittorrent to test an alternative way to distribute our planet
dumps to reduce the bandwidth load on the OSMF servers.

Here is a short summary after 2 weeks tests...

The torrents are generated a few hours after the planet dump
availability on planet.openstreetmap.org server (time needed to
download the original file to generate the torrent).


A question about updates of the torrent. The planet changes weekly. 
Suppose I download the plannet using the torrent and then also seed 
it, what happens when the next planet comes available? Do I need to 
use a different torrent to download it again or will the one I have 
be updated?
Each planet file has its own torrent. A new planet file means using a 
new torrent to download it.


To simplify downloading the lastest planet, you'll find a 
planet-latest.pbf.torrent similar to the planet-latest.pbf (it's a 
symlink to the last planet available).


If you want to automate downloading new planet thru torrents, for 
example to seed them, there's a rss.xml file you can use. Many 
bittorrent clients support RSS to automate downloads.




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Re: [OSM-talk] Teaching cyclists how to contribute to OSM

2020-01-19 Thread john whelan
Locally in Ottawa many paths are multiuse there is a path many kilometers
long along the Ottawa river that has a line marked down the center and is
very much used by cyclists but according to NCC who own the path it is
multi-use not bicycles only so is mapped highway=path.  Most City of Ottawa
paths are the same, bicycles are permitted but they are not cycleways.

I worked with City of Ottawa bicycle specialist on this starting on why one
path in a park was marked as a bicycle path whilst another in the same park
of identical width was not.  Eventually we arrived at all paths except
those that are marked no bicycles are multiuse paths ie bicycles are
permitted.

Multiuse means skateboards, wheelchairs, skis  etc.  We had 25 cms of snow
today and many paths are not ploughed.  There aren't many conventional
bicycles that can use the paths under these conditions.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 19 Jan 2020 at 18:42, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 18, 2020 at 5:06 PM James  wrote:
>
>> Bike advocacy group in Ottawa created this:
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/BikeOttawa/OSM-Bike-Ottawa-Tagging-Guide/blob/master/README.md
>>
>> as well as a crowd sourced map like the one for winter bike trails that
>> allows a user to submit if a path is winter maintained or not, it will then
>> update OSM in the back end: maps.bikeottawa.ca
>>
>
> Did notice an error.  It's suggesting a cycleway with a sidewalk be tagged
> as highway=path instead of highway=cycleway.
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Re: [OSM-talk] is OSM a fake map.

2019-12-29 Thread john whelan
I'm fairly lucky in that in the last three years nothing much has changed
locally.  The highways have stayed much the same.  Most buildings are still
there.

If you use Bing to add things then realistically it fills in gaps in the
map.  If you delete things because they are not in Bing that is a quite
different matter.

Does it matter if the mapper lives more than five miles away?  Well I've
mapped places a few thousand miles away but they were places I knew very
well as I used to live there.

I don't think OSM will ever be completely accurate.  Having said that it is
still very useful for many purposes.

Cheerio John


On Sun, 29 Dec 2019, 12:31 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk, 
wrote:

> it say in some wiki. to correct what you find wrong on the map,
>
> not one “other nearby users” is a current mapper, and all edits in a 5
> mile radius are not coming from an on the ground
>
> mappers in my area but 20 miles + away and are tracing from bing, and the
> images on bing in my local area are from
>
> 2016 so i do not see how the map locally is true, and it is not easy to go
> and see every thing they have done,
>
> no car or bike.
>
> every thing i do is backed up by me on mapillary, and in traces.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Relevance of the “name” tag in places where there is no obvious associated language

2019-12-06 Thread john whelan
The international language would be English.  It is after all the language
of trade and as a consequence absorbed many words from other languages.

But that is taking a pragmatic view and is only one minor voice amongst all
the contributors.  There will be many other voices decrying its use.

One approach would be to tag name:en in areas where the local language
differs or the local written language is unusable by a significant number
of people either because of hardware / software issues or literacy issues.

Cheerio John

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019, 11:00 am Andy Townsend,  wrote:

> On 06/12/2019 15:10, Tomek wrote:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277
>
> W dniu 19-12-06 o 16:08, Tomek pisze:
>
> EN
> Is this change acceptable and can I continue?
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78060265
>
>
> Not yet.  Wait what people say in reply.
>
> I personally am not a fan of using 8 different names in one name tag
> (though some countries that have multiple equal languages do favour that
> nationally).   The example here "Baltijas jūra / Baltijos jūra / Itämeri /
> Läänemeri / Morze Bałtyckie / Östersjön / Østersøen / Ostsee / Балтийское
> море" seems a bit clumsy.
>
> Is there an international language used within shipping worldwide?
> Perhaps that would be a better option than this.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] mapbox, (Changeset Analyzer), whodidit

2019-09-24 Thread john whelan
I think the problem has been resolved.  There was a misunderstanding on
which tags should be used for which values.

Strangely enough bus stops and bus routes are quite specialised and it
isn't always apparent how they should be tagged especially with the newer
platform tags.

Cheerio John

On Tue, 24 Sep 2019, 5:01 am Mateusz Konieczny, 
wrote:

>
> 24 Sep 2019, 04:42 by talk@openstreetmap.org:
>
> and will not let anyone else add – edit to that category.
>
> Is (s)he making incorrect edits or rude
> changeset comments?
>
> Have you commented in their
> changeset with explanation that it is a problem?
>
> Can you link such changeset comments?
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Re: [OSM-talk] bus stop (correction)

2019-09-21 Thread john whelan
If there is a physical bus stop ie a pole with a sign on it then map it as
a bus stop or rather whatever is the new way to map them.

On the stop should be a reference number of it exists.  These typically are
a number that is input to find out when the next bus is coming.

The route number to my understanding does not go on the bus stop as such
but on the relationship.  The bus stop may be tagged with a relationship.

Locally the bus system planners have a new computerised planning system so
the routes and numbers are forever being changed but the physical bus stops
remain the same.

Cheerio John

On Sat, Sep 21, 2019, 1:35 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk, <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> ok. what about in bus systems out side of europe or canada , we do not do
> things that way, in that the name on the map,
>
> standard OSM, is the number, that stops are hail and ride, with or without
> signs and or posted with just the number.
>
> *From:* Jack Armstrong via talk
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2019 9:44 AM
> *To:* OSM
> *Cc:* Jack Armstrong
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] bus stop (correction)
>
> In this example, the name of the bus stop is, "Ridgeline Blvd & Highlands
> Ranch Pkwy". Each bus stop on a route has a different name. The name of the
> bus route in this example is "RTD Route 0".
>
> Please read, "Adding a bus route to OpenStreetMap";
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Buses#Adding_a_bus_route_to_OpenStreetMap
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru
> Sent: Sep 21, 2019 4:12 AM
> To: Jack Armstrong
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] bus stop (correction)
>
> I am being told this is “hail and ride”, which in the united states we do
> not talk that way,
>
> but why is the map name “Ridgeline Blvd & Highlands Ranch Pkwy” and not 0.
>
> again this is the united states and we use numbers not names.
>
> *From:* Jack Armstrong via talk
> *Sent:* Friday, September 20, 2019 11:10 PM
> *To:* OSM
> *Cc:* Jack Armstrong
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] bus stop (correction)
>
> Correction to my last email. Below is the correct text. Sorry about that.
>
> --
>
> If I understand your question correctly, the route number is part of a
> "relation".
> Go to the link below.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=23/39.54962/-104.99612
> With your mouse, select the Bus Stop node. Look to the left side of your
> screen. Scroll down to see the tags attached to this Bus Stop.
> Below the tags, you will see a relation in blue font. In this case the
> route number is, "RTD Route 0".
> If you scroll over the blue font text with your cursor you will see the
> road lights up in blue.
> The route number is placed in the *route relation*.
>
> See, "Adding a bus route to OpenStreetMap" here;
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Buses#Adding_a_bus_route_to_OpenStreetMap
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: 80hnhtv4a...@bk.ru
> Sent: Sep 20, 2019 9:03 PM
> To: Jack Armstrong
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] bus stop
>
> ok!
>
> but where is the route number, if i am looking at a map i need to know
> what route,
>
> if i am standing there i know what road i am on.
>
> *From:* Jack Armstrong via talk
> *Sent:* Friday, September 20, 2019 8:45 PM
> *To:* osm
> *Cc:* Jack Armstrong
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] bus stop
>
>
>
> local_ref can be used for a platform number
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dstop_position
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=23/39.54962/-104.99612
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] bus stop

2019-09-20 Thread john whelan
I'm not sure this is quite the place for this discussion but Europe also
has some bus routes that pick up and drop off on request.  Just don't map
none existent stops.

Ottawa Canada has fixed stops as do many other locations in North America.

I suggest you try to map following the wiki map features.  If someone is
changing your tags then discuss the matter with them as is the traditional
way to resolve the problem.

Cheerio John

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019, 10:46 AM 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk, <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> europe vs. united states,
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:public_transport%3Dplatform
>
> 1. does not match the way we catch the bus in the usa and the fields are
> to strict.
>
> 2. is a place where i will stand to catch the bus, sign or no sign etc.
>
> 3. the map point reflects the area and stops are not set in stone but is
> based on a driver etc.
>
> 4. bus stops are numbered routes as on the sign, the fields do not reflect
> or allow for this, just the name,
>
> the standard web edit map reflects points not route lines, google puts in
> a no. not a line.
>
> looking at a map numbers are more important than names and not all stops
> have names like
>
> someone's driveway.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Governance

2019-09-10 Thread john whelan
If the discussion takes place in a mailing list there is a record of it.

Slack is restricted and I'm not certain if a record is available.  Same for
chat or mumble discussions.  Both are valuable but not for formally
recording why a decision was made and the reasons behind it.

Cheerio John

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 6:54 AM Valor Naram,  wrote:

> Hello Roland and other "talkers",
>
> I also thought about creating a new better channel for tagging discussions
> where all sites (mappers (newbies, experienced), developers, researchers
> etc.) come into play. E.g. we could create IRC rooms for discussions for
> each tag and have one main IRC room where one can "advertise" for a tag
> discussion in an IRC room. Votes can still take place in the wiki. But this
> would just solve one of many OSM issues.
>
>
> I also mentioned in "tagging" the problem of "multiple tags for one
> purpose" but the emerging discussion there was not kind of discussion I
> hoped for. I also think that Mailing list isn't the right format for
> discussions. I think a chat is better suited for discussions. Telegram
> groups like @osm_de show that it can work throw chatting.
>
> Cheers
>
> Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging Governance
> From: Christoph Hormann
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> CC:
>
>
>
> Hello Roland,
>
> not sure if you have seen - i already gave my initial thoughts on this
> on
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/imagico/diary/390599
>
> --
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[OSM-talk] sending location from a smart phone.

2019-08-17 Thread John Whelan
Apparently some Fire brigades ask people who are lost on moors etc to 
download What3words then tell them their location.


Isn't there a simpler way?  Perhaps to get a text message sent with the 
long and lat?


ref
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-49319760


Thanks John


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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on global and local communities in OpenStreetMap

2019-08-07 Thread john whelan
Creating a survey that works takes a lot of effort and it is quite
specialised.

Next time it might be worth asking some of the people who like to survey
the OSM community to build the survey incorporating a couple of questions
of their own and do a test run first.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019, 5:27 PM Christoph Hormann,  wrote:

> On Wednesday 07 August 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
> >
> > @the designers of the survey. The question wrt remote mapping would
> > seem to be designed to achieve a specific result.
>
> I can also see some expectations and assumptions being visible 'between
> the lines' in some questions but this looks more like projecting own
> preconceptions and state of mind and less like active manipulation.
>
> There seem to be overall a lot of questions where there is a high
> likelihood that many participants will answer a different question than
> what those designing the survey wanted to ask - due to unclear and
> vague terminology for example and due to ambiguous references.
>
> The question you referred to for example says
>
> "Do you remotely map other countries?"
>
> and it is unclear if the "other" refers to the country where you live or
> to "where do you map mostly".  Pure armchair mappers only mapping in a
> single country might answer "No" to this question.
>
> My main concern is rather that there are a lot of free form questions
> yet there is no option for the participants to allow publication of the
> individual free form answers in anonymized form.  This means we will -
> just like in the previous survey - only learn about any of these
> answers through the lens of the subjective interpretation of those
> making the aggregation.  This provides a lot of room for distortion
> through either cultural bias or deliberate selectivity of those doing
> the aggregation which kind of defeats the whole idea of doing a survey
> to reach parts of the community that are otherwise not visible.
>
> In other words: What the survey says is you are welcome to provide your
> ideas through the survey but we, the creators of the survey, reserve
> the right to interpret your answers as we see fit and neither you nor
> anyone else may correct us if we do not correctly interpret what you
> wrote.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

2019-07-29 Thread john whelan
I agree with Kathleen.  Given that smartphones are more common than
internet connected computers and it is easier to add or change tags on a
smartphone than add a long highway at least the locals stand more chance
this way.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 1:00 PM Kathleen Lu via talk, 
wrote:

> On the other hand, if the map of your area is completely blank, it looks
> very daunting to a new mapper, who may be discouraged and abandon OSM
> (either as too difficult to improve and as too poor quality to use).
> The map is constantly changing because roads and other things on the map
> are changing in the real world. A city might close off a road and then it
> will become a "bad" street. It's easier to delete a bad street than to add
> a bunch of streets, especially when you are surveying on foot and don't
> have a mouse.
> I personally would much rather have a 101% map than a 1% map.
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 9:21 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Re: "OSM map with a one percent of roads is far worse than having 101%
>> of the roads mapped with the help of AI with 1% of extras, because
>> fixing that 1% is far less work than adding 99% by hand"
>>
>> I'm not certain this is true. It might be very difficult to find the
>> 1% of incorrectly mapped roads; you don't know where to look, and you
>> must survey on the ground with GPS, and check each road segment to
>> find the 1% that actually are blocked by a fence or gate or don't
>> really go through that clump of trees.
>>
>> In contrast, when 99% are missing it's very obvious when looking at
>> the map data. You still have to survey and add the streets, but it may
>> actually be faster to get to a complete map of your home neighborhood,
>> than trying to find 10 bad streets out of 1000 segments in your
>> neighborhood.
>>
>> Finally, when you look at the map and it looks 100% complete, you
>> won't see the need to start mapping and become a totally addicted
>> OSMer like you will if your village is only 1% mapped, so we may not
>> get the new contributors that we need to actual maintain the data that
>> our robot mappers have added.
>>
>> Joseph
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

2019-07-24 Thread john whelan
My personal view is I think using AI to identify potential highways and
buildings is fine but there needs to be a process that includes manual
review.

Basically the import process.

I think my concern was more the idea in the article that suggests OSM
welcomes AI mapping and by implication conventional mappers were no longer
required.  This may impact HOT mapathons by the way if people feel that
needn't bother mapping, the AI will do it all.

Could someone clarify with the BBC to describe the process and emphasize
the community aspect of OSM.  It is summer so news apart from Boris is thin
on the ground so it might well be an opportune time to get a bit of
publicity for OpenStreetMap.

Cheerio John

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019, 4:57 PM Andy Townsend,  wrote:

> On 24/07/2019 20:56, John Whelan wrote:
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093
> >
> > I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.
>
> I'm sure if the BBC wanted to do some actual journalism they could ask
> some OSM contributors in Thailand what their view was (see e.g.
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=65056 for a selection
> of opinions) rather than just regurgitating FB's press release without
> it touching the sides on either the way down or the way up.
>
> I'm sure that there's someone at the BBC who's job it is to deal with
> complaints about non-news like this (in fact a couple of clicks from
> that "article" takes you straight to
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complain-online/ ), just like the DWG
> have to deal with complaints about, shall we say, "sub optimal mapping"
> from the likes of Facebook et al.
>
> To be fair to Facebook (speaking entirely as an outsider to that
> organisation here), their approach seems to have moved from being
> entirely "mechanical" to involving more humans.  Facebook's early
> attempts were, in a nutshell, dreadful:
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17856687 is a write-up from someone
> who was apparently working there at the time; it's pretty much a
> textbook example of "how not to contribute to OSM". Latterly they have
> been much more communicative with the community, as you can see by
> reading the Thai forum threads.
>
> Other large companies contributing to OSM have followed similar paths;
> although sometimes it does require a rather excessive number of
> changeset discussion comments, OSM messages that users have to read
> before continuing to edit, longer blocks and reverts before they give up
> and actually try communicating with other people*.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> (a member of the DWG, so I've of course had to "bucket and shovel"
> Facebook mechanical edits in the past, but writing here in an entirely
> personal capacity)
>
> * for the avoidance of doubt this wasn't Facebook; it was a smaller
> company offering B2B services in a couple of countries.
>
>
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[OSM-talk] Facebook mapping highways using AI in collaboration with OpenStreetMap

2019-07-24 Thread John Whelan

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49091093

Did I miss a discussion on the subject or an announcement from Fredrick 
on this?


I note "Martijn van Exel" is quoted.

Many Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

2019-07-16 Thread john whelan
I think this one has nailed it.

Thanks John

On Tue, 16 Jul 2019 at 11:36, Stefan Baebler 
wrote:

> Hints to the speaker (human or TTS engine) can be provided via:
> 1) pronunciation tag:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Phonetics eg
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name:pronunciation
> 2) teach it how to expand appreviations in different languages, eg
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder:Abbreviations
> 3) Both :)
>
> br,
> Štefan
>
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 5:23 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
>> The same happened in Poland, abbreviations are expanded.
>>
>>
>> 16 Jul 2019, 17:02 by nunocapelocalde...@gmail.com:
>>
>> in Portugal the community has agreed not to use abreviations.
>>
>> A terça, 16/07/2019, 15:58, John Whelan  escreveu:
>>
>> One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an
>> abbreviation.For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.
>>
>> Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular
>> application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be
>> able to come up with a generic solution.
>>
>> Thanks John
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

2019-07-16 Thread John Whelan

This approach I like. Name:expanded perhaps?

To go back to earlier ideas.

Expanding the name sounds sensible but unfortunately the street signs 
are posted with the abbreviation and some local mappers have a what is 
on the sign goes in the map mentality.  Also we have had discussions 
about street names in Canada before and the decision was what the 
municipality declares the street name is correct.  That was to do with 
either "rue Sparks" or should it be "Rue Sparks" in Quebec it would be 
one way but in Ontario the other.


Thoughts

Thanks John

Colin Smale wrote on 2019-07-16 11:30 AM:


On 2019-07-16 16:54, John Whelan wrote:

One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an 
abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.


Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular 
application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should 
be able to come up with a generic solution.


Some kind of phonetic (IPA?) representation would be the ultimate 
generic solution. Here in NL (and I guess in many other countries) 
there are street names which are partially or entirely in other 
languages, and the expectation is that they are pronounced as such. 
For example, Boeing Avenue would sound completely weird if it were 
pronounced according to Dutch rules. Truly multi-lingual countries 
like Belgium and Switzerland should be able to make use of name:XX.


If we had name:XX:ipa=* we would have a place to put it, but the 
client app would need to have a way of turning that into sounds. It 
will only be needed if the pronunciation deviates from the standard 
for the language in question, but speech synthesisers are never 
perfect and often make mistakes


https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/264239/is-there-any-online-tool-to-read-pronounce-ipa-and-apa-written-words

Of course we will also need a way of entering IPA symbols




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[OSM-talk] handling street names in speech

2019-07-16 Thread John Whelan
One or two are problematic usually as the street name is an 
abbreviation.    For example 1e Avenue in French meaning First Avenue.


Any suggestions on how these should be handled?  This particular 
application is aimed at partially sighted people but I feel we should be 
able to come up with a generic solution.


Thanks John



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Re: [OSM-talk] Way to delete buildings added by specific user, or help reverting?

2019-07-08 Thread John Whelan
Different people have different standards.  Normally in OpenStreetMap we 
don't consider data consumers but they do exist.


In Canada for example there are different levels of government and 
government agencies who would like to see buildings in Canada.  They are 
available in different formats from a number of sources in Open Data 
format with the correct licensing.  However combining them with other 
sources means it is more convenient for many to use OSM.


We have had people complain that buildings have been mapped with too 
much detail.  I'm probably guilty of using the JOSM buildings_tool to 
simplify buildings and not include the bumps for garages when mapping in 
Canada.  Talking to the government agencies and most would be delighted 
with the level of detail and accuracy you've identified rather than have 
nothing.


In Africa where I also map these would be considered to be more than 
acceptable compared to many buildings that are mapped there.


If you zap them what's left and is it better to have nothing than 
building outline that is approximately correct?


Cheerio John



hbogner wrote on 2019-07-08 3:53 PM:

My comment was not nice because I snapped after seeing what he/she did.

As a schooled surveyor that kind of neglect and false data is hurting 
me and I have the right to be angry. Maybe to harsh language but that 
data is false data.


Only one building on this map is not the same as the others:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r3u6tow5qbc7jna/osm-Venko.png
They are copy/pasted all over the map.

This is not the first complaint I got about him/her from Croatian 
community.


Croatian community does not like false data being entered just to fill 
the map.



On 08. 07. 2019. 21:36, Bryan Housel wrote:

hbonger, your comment here is not very nice.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/56552674

Reviewing their edits on OSMCha, most of their edits don’t look too bad
https://osmcha.mapbox.com/changesets/69561377?filters=%7B%22users%22%3A%5B%7B%22label%22%3A%22Venko%22%2C%22value%22%3A%22Venko%22%7D%5D%2C%22date__gte%22%3A%5B%7B%22label%22%3A%22%22%2C%22value%22%3A%22%22%7D%5D%7D 
<https://osmcha.mapbox.com/changesets/69561377?filters={"users":[{"label":"Venko","value":"Venko"}],"date__gte":[{"label":"","value":""}]}> 



Maybe you should try being nicer to them and they might care about 
the map more.  Comments like yours ripple outwards and affect the 
rest of the OSM project negatively.. Calling some’s edit “bullshit” 
is not going to get them to draw better buildings.


Just saying - be nicer, thanks.
Bryan




On Jul 8, 2019, at 2:57 PM, hbogner <mailto:hbogner+n...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Hi all

Is there a way to delete buildings created by specific user?

Some users already complained about 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Venko to me for inaccurate 
mapping and imaginary mapping. They wrote to him, but he didn't 
reply or stop.


Here is an example on which I just stumbled:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/45.52874/15.48285&layers=N

He copy/pasted one building all over the place.

I tried to revert the changeset, but there are too many conflicts.

Any suggestions how to fix this mess?

regards, Hrvoje


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Re: [OSM-talk] Way to delete buildings added by specific user, or help reverting?

2019-07-08 Thread john whelan
Your concern is?  If I look in JOSM at the link you supplied the buildings
are approximately the right size and where buildings are in the imagery.

Their orientation could be better.

However they aren't duplicates, and compared to many buildings mapped
they're almost reasonable and the mapper isn't that inexperienced.

If you're local fine raise the issue but otherwise I'm not seeing a major
problem, still having said that I do understand some people do have
concerns about mapping buildings and importing them.

You can use JOSM to pick them out and correct them by the way.  If you
download the country off line then split it up into chunks JOSM works quite
well.  Cleaning up buildings is quite a chunk of work by the way.

Cheerio John



On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 15:07, hbogner  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Is there a way to delete buildings created by specific user?
>
> Some users already complained about
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Venko to me for inaccurate mapping
> and imaginary mapping. They wrote to him, but he didn't reply or stop.
>
> Here is an example on which I just stumbled:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/45.52874/15.48285&layers=N
>
> He copy/pasted one building all over the place.
>
> I tried to revert the changeset, but there are too many conflicts.
>
> Any suggestions how to fix this mess?
>
> regards, Hrvoje
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

2019-07-06 Thread John Whelan
There is another side to this the population counts often depend on 
building counts but some towns and villages are growing rapidly.  You 
can see the difference sometimes going from one zoom level tile to the 
next so the ones with buildings in often haven't the newer buildings 
mapped but just the old ones are so the population estimates are based 
on the old images not the later ones.


Cheerio John

Pierre Béland via talk wrote on 2019-07-06 8:45 PM:

Speaking more generally,
Populatation is growing fast in Africa and many african countries dont 
have the resources to organize regular census. See the UN Statistics 
Division record of last census by country 
https://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/sources/census/censusdates.htm


This means that quality vary from one country to the other and that 
often we lack good info about distribution of population in the 
various countries.  The OSM building mapping projects are often used 
for population estimates.


Pierre


Le samedi 6 juillet 2019 20 h 08 min 09 s UTC−4, Darafei "Komяpa" 
Praliaskouski  a écrit :



Hi,

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 4:09 PM Jean-Marc Liotier <mailto:j...@liotier.org>> wrote:


On Fri, July 5, 2019 2:40 pm, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
> One warning:  All global population data sets that exist are rough
> estimates with usually significant systematic biases and errors. For
> example in Switzerland the data set you used sees high population
> density in mountain areas with no basis in reality.

Same in rural Senegal. Low-resolution population data I guess.


Can you point to a specific place please?

What would be the population dataset that you would recommend for Senegal?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Mali

2019-06-30 Thread john whelan
I think the concerns are more to do with how do we clean it up.

The first major concern is  "Working for a mapping project with Apple."
the concern here is paid mappers and the quality of their work.

The second is there are a fair number of imports of varying quality.  Most
schools I suspect are fairly accurate but it would be nice to tie the node
to a building or an area.  Some hospitals are very definitely wrong the
node is in the middle of nowhere and yes I have checked different imagery.
This really needs local knowledge to sort out.

Much of it is HOT, highways that are mapped to the edge of the task manager
tile.  So one highway section gets mapped as track, another as
unclassified, another as path, another as tertiary as different mappers put
heir own interpretation of what the tag should be.

If some nice person could come up with an overpass that picked out large
buildings in Africa that should pick out the villages tagged as buildings.

For paid mappers I think we need a code of conduct.

I think there is sufficient infrastructure in Africa three days for local
mappers.  Smartphones are becoming more common and so is an Internet
connection albeit driven by social media.

Can we build on this?  Schools need to communicate with parents and other
schools.  This sort of implies a postal service which in turn implies names
on streets and house numbers.

My impression is there would be an economic advantage, larger cities
already have street names.  Could someone do a PhD in the subject which
might well mean a bit more government.  My personal view is some things are
best done by governments.  Highways for example.

By the way some mappers seem to be non HOT so if we can pick them out and
support them a percentage may well be local.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 30 Jun 2019 at 11:24, Andrew Hain 
wrote:

> Is there any sign of mappers being part of an organised activity or of
> someone having encouraged them to contribute?
>
> --
> Andrew
> --
> *From:* John Whelan 
> *Sent:* 29 June 2019 23:49
> *To:* talk@openstreetmap.org
> *Cc:* Pierre Béland via HOT
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Mali
>
> I've been going over Mali adding in missing villages and hamlets working
> in the southern and eastern part of Mali and cleaning up as I go.  Adding
> nodes to highways that cross but have no nodes, adding tags to untagged
> ways etc.  I even try to make sure each village has one highway at least
> leading to it.
>
> However as I work west I'm coming across areas that have lots of buildings
> and lots of errors.  I've zapped more than a few hundred duplicate
> buildings.  I confess I have not put a comment on every changeset
> especially when the mapper has less than 30 edits.  I'm seeing three
> buildings mapped on top of each other by the same mapper.  One is untagged
> and its not just once.  Interestingly some of the changesets are tagged
> "untangling the spaghetti" and I have sympathy with that mapper.
>
> In particular I'm seeing whole villages marked as a single building=yes,
> villages with highways that don't meet in the middle.  Villages connected
> by tracks which doesn't match up with the African Highway wiki page.
>
> Most errors are mapped by mappers with not that much experience.  The
> buildings in some ways are a nuisance as they both seem to be mapped from
> different imagery so often have been mapped crossing highways etc but the
> other problem is they fill the map so much so other features are difficult
> to spot like highways that don't quite meet.
>
> Are there any local Mali mappers around to chat with to see if we can get
> something organised?  In particular we need the highway classification
> sorting out.  The African highway wiki is fine as far as it goes but
> something connecting a village to a highway comes out as unclassified
> especially if there are square roofs in the village.  In order to
> differentiate the highways that these connect to that connect a number of
> villages probably should be tertiary and the ones that connect towns and
> major villages probably something else.
>
> However I'd be much more comfortable with some local mappers making these
> calls.
>
> I'm not sure quite what to do.  It needs a more organized approach.  An
> Apple mapper has been in demoting highway=tertiary to unclassified and yes
> we did have a conversation however I'm fairly certain they are working
> remotely from imagery.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks John
>
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[OSM-talk] Mali

2019-06-29 Thread John Whelan
I've been going over Mali adding in missing villages and hamlets working 
in the southern and eastern part of Mali and cleaning up as I go. Adding 
nodes to highways that cross but have no nodes, adding tags to untagged 
ways etc.  I even try to make sure each village has one highway at least 
leading to it.


However as I work west I'm coming across areas that have lots of 
buildings and lots of errors.  I've zapped more than a few hundred 
duplicate buildings.  I confess I have not put a comment on every 
changeset especially when the mapper has less than 30 edits.  I'm seeing 
three buildings mapped on top of each other by the same mapper.  One is 
untagged and its not just once.  Interestingly some of the changesets 
are tagged "untangling the spaghetti" and I have sympathy with that mapper.


In particular I'm seeing whole villages marked as a single building=yes, 
villages with highways that don't meet in the middle.  Villages 
connected by tracks which doesn't match up with the African Highway wiki 
page.


Most errors are mapped by mappers with not that much experience.  The 
buildings in some ways are a nuisance as they both seem to be mapped 
from different imagery so often have been mapped crossing highways etc 
but the other problem is they fill the map so much so other features are 
difficult to spot like highways that don't quite meet.


Are there any local Mali mappers around to chat with to see if we can 
get something organised?  In particular we need the highway 
classification sorting out.  The African highway wiki is fine as far as 
it goes but something connecting a village to a highway comes out as 
unclassified especially if there are square roofs in the village.  In 
order to differentiate the highways that these connect to that connect a 
number of villages probably should be tertiary and the ones that connect 
towns and major villages probably something else.


However I'd be much more comfortable with some local mappers making 
these calls.


I'm not sure quite what to do.  It needs a more organized approach.  An 
Apple mapper has been in demoting highway=tertiary to unclassified and 
yes we did have a conversation however I'm fairly certain they are 
working remotely from imagery.


Thoughts?

Thanks John

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Règles d'éditions organisées / Directed editing guidelines

2019-06-22 Thread John Whelan
I'm beginning to think that a simple way to improve data quality would 
be to put a less powerful tool in the hands of inexperienced mappers.  A 
simpler editor with fewer choices or perhaps an existing editor with 
restricted choices for a particular task or region.


Do we really need sidewalk=no on every village street in Africa?

For more experienced mappers yes its nice to have the flexibility but 
for someone with say less than 100 edits mapping from imagery a simpler 
editor might be better.


The trouble with instructions is they must be read and understood and 
many new mappers just want to map first.


Cheerio John

severin.menard via osmf-talk wrote on 2019-06-22 7:53 AM:


(Automatic DeepL translation below)

Bonjour

Il y a quelques semaines, j’ai participé à l’organisation d’un 
mapathon sur plusieurs jours dans le cadre d’une formation à 
OpenStreetMap et aux outils de la géomatique, animée à Antananarivo à 
Madagascar avec d’autres contributeurs OpenStreetMap expérimentés.


J’ai cherché à me conformer aux nouvelles règles concernant les 
éditions dirigées de la Fondation OSM [1] adoptée par son bureau le 15 
novembre 2018 [2], en listant notre activité dans cette page du wiki 
[3] et en créant une sous-page spécifique [4] en m’aidant, à défaut de 
modèles génériques, de l’un des exemples fournis qu’il m’a fallu 
adapter au contexte. J’ai récemment procédé à une mise jour de cette 
sous-page pour intégrer les résultats de ces éditions. Je serais 
intéressé d’avoir des retours et suggestions du groupe de travail sur 
les données.


J’ai ensuite regardé les autres projets de la page wiki principale 
[3]. Parmi les organisations qui ont fait des mapathons une activité 
importante voire phare de leur activité, j’ai pu remarquer à mon grand 
étonnement que :


- HOT US Inc propose bien une sous-page spécifique, mais pour 
l’ensemble de ses éditions organisées, avec une section finale 
particulièrement succincte sur la qualité qui semble s’appuyer 
uniquement sur les capacités du Tasking Manager, en dehors des projets 
où des équipes de terrain peuvent être impliquées. De récentes 
discussions [5] au sujet du contrôle de qualité dans les projets ont 
montré que le processus de suivi n’est pas jugé satisfaisant par des 
contributeurs expérimentés


- Youthmappers a juste créé une ligne dans le tableau principal sans 
aucune sous-page spécifique ni quelconque indication sur la manière de 
gérer les éditions dirigées qu’elle encourage pourtant vivement [6]


- Missing Maps n’apparaît nullement dans le tableau principal en tant 
qu’organisation, seul est présent le groupe CZ & SK qui fournit une 
sous-page extrêmement limitée [7] ! Les catastrophes cartographiques 
engendrées par les mapathons labellisés Missing Maps ont pourtant été 
l’une des deux raisons de la mise en place de cette politique visant à 
encadrer les éditions dirigées, avec les nuisances provoquées par 
quelques entreprises contribuant dans OSM comme bon leur semble et 
refusant d’interagir avec la communauté OSM.


Actuellement, cette politique concernant les éditions dirigées n’est 
donc, paradoxalement, pas respectée, voire totalement négligée par les 
principales organisations qu’elle ciblait. Quelle suite compte donner 
la Fondation et son groupe de travail sur les données devant ces 
faits, plus de six mois après l’officialisation des Organised editing 
guidelines ?



Cordialement,


Severin


--
Hello,

A few weeks ago, I participated in the organization of a multi-day 
mapathon as part of a training course on OpenStreetMap and geomatics 
tools, held in Antananarivo, Madagascar with other experienced 
OpenStreetMap contributors.
I have sought to comply with the new rules concerning the OSM 
Foundation's directed editions[1] adopted by its board on November 15, 
2018[2], by listing our activity in this page of the wiki[3] and by 
creating a specific subpage[4] by using, in the absence of generic 
models, one of the examples provided, which I had to adapt to the 
context. I recently updated this subpage to include the results of 
these editions. I would be interested to have feedback and suggestions 
from the Data Working Group.


I then looked at the other projects on the main wiki page [3]. Among 
the organizations that have made Mapathons an important or even 
flagship activity of their activity, I was surprised to notice that:
- HOT US Inc does propose a specific subpage, but for all its 
organized editions, with a particularly brief final section on quality 
that seems to rely solely on the capabilities of the Tasking Manager, 
outside projects where field teams can be involved. Recent 
discussions[5] about quality control in projects have shown that the 
monitoring process is not considered satisfactory by experienced 
contributors
- Youthmappers has just created a line in the main table without any 
specific subpage or guidance on how to manage the directed editions, 
which it strongl

Re: [OSM-talk] How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

2019-06-06 Thread john whelan
My personal view is if you are cutting and pasting in JOSM it is not an
import as such.

Cheerio John

On Fri, 31 May 2019, 1:50 pm Shrinivasan T,  wrote:

> Thanks for the replies.
>
> I understand that if name:ta tag and its value is available, it is
> enough to build Tamil maps.
>
> But, the issue we face is there is not enough name:ta values.
>
>
> [out:json][timeout:3600][bbox:12.9201721,80.1238331,13.2401721,80.4438331];(node["railway"]["name"~"."]["name:ta"!~"."];);out
> meta;
>
> The above is the query for my city railways that dont have tamil
> translations.
>
> Check the json result here.
>
> http://overpass-api.de/api/interpreter?data=%5Bout%3Ajson%5D%5Btimeout%3A3600%5D%5Bbbox%3A12.9201721%2C80.1238331%2C13.2401721%2C80.4438331%5D%3B%28node%5B%22railway%22%5D%5B%22name%22~%22.%22%5D%5B%22name%3Ata%22%21~%22.%22%5D%3B%29%3Bout%20meta%3B
>
> Like this, we have tons and tons of POIs, Roads, Ways that are only in
> english.
>
> Now, we have to translate all these strings to Tamil.
>
> For translation, I got few contributors, who can translation if give
> the exact content in a excel sheet or in some translation system.
> They are not willing to explore osm, jsom, overpass query etc for
> translating the strings.
>
> Hence, I am thinking of myself query osm, get name strings that done
> have "name:ta" tag, populate them as a google sheet, share the
> translators for translating.
> Once they did, I will import the strings to osm with name:ta tag.
>
> To make the translator's job easier, I do a google or bing or wikidata
> or some machine translation, so that they can skip the correct one.
> They can only fix the wrong translations.
>
> The license of translated text will be public domain. so that we can
> use for any purpose.
>
> Hope I explained the plan.
>
> My Questions.
>
> Is mass importing of translated strings accepted?
> Do I have to get permission before importing?
> Where to ask for permission?
> Is there any rate limit for importing strings via programming like x
> strings per day or per min etc.
>
>
> Thanks.
> Shrini
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to Translate Strings in OSM to other languages

2019-05-31 Thread John Whelan
You might just try osmand as well.  You can set the language to be 
displayed and if the item isn't tagged in Tamil it will display the 
English tag.


Using JOSM you can select assets with and without values.  So you can 
find those places with just an English name.  Create a second layer, 
download a one inch square with nothing in it then copy the places you 
need to add names to the second layer and save the file.


Now you have an xml file that you can play with certainly as far as 
seeing which places need extra name tags in.


Cheerio John

Andy Townsend wrote on 2019-05-31 10:44 AM:

On 31/05/2019 15:14, Shrinivasan T wrote:


We need a similar map in Tamil Language.


You probably don't need to translate anything.  What you see on one 
OSM-based map is only a tiny subset of the data in OSM.  Here, for 
example, is the information stored against one place in that area:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5359556781

You'll notice that the "name:ta" contains the placename that you want 
to display here.


What you probably want to do is to create a map using a similar map 
style to the standard one at openstreetmap.org  (or a different one, 
if you prefer) but displaying Tamil names on it. It's actually pretty 
simple to do this; as just one example 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html displays names in one 
of three languages depending on in what area the name actually is.  
See https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SomeoneElse/diary/42069 for how 
I did this, but what you want to do (always display Tamil names in 
preference to the default ones) is actually much simpler.


Those instructions apply to maps created using the same technology as 
was used to generate the tiles you see at openstreetmap.org (see also 
https://switch2osm.org/manually-building-a-tile-server-18-04-lts/ ). 
Other options are available, but in each case they'll be able to make 
use of the extra fields in the OSM data that you won't see by default 
at openstreetmap.org.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

2019-05-29 Thread john whelan
I take it by this email you are putting your views and that of your team of
what should be done above everyone else and no one else's views should
count which would be fine for any other editor.

Unfortunately I honestly think there is a change management problem with
the default editor on the front page being updated without any change
management procedures.

Just for the record I'm happy if people wish to use iD, I do have
reservations about the number of horse=yes tags in Africa and I do have
reservations about odd shaped buildings created in iD.

Cheerio John





On Wed, 29 May 2019 at 11:23, Bryan Housel  wrote:

> Christine..
>
> We mustn't define “the community” as the few remaining handful of people
> who have not yet been driven off the mailing lists by persistent abusers
> and trolls.
>
> I am very aware of what people are saying about iD on all discussion
> channels.  I read all of it, even the stuff written in other languages, and
> even archives of mailing lists that I’ve long unsubscribed from.
>
> I encourage everyone to not put too much stock into what “the community”
> of mailing list haters thinks about iD.  It’s the same dozen or so people
> who have never liked me or iD much anyway.
>
> I meet with stakeholders every week about the improvements we’ve made in
> iD, *and I’m proud of the work that our small team has been able to
> accomplish with each new release*.  Right now there are 1000s of people
> editing with iD (most volunteering, but some paid) who will never stop by
> mailing list or a GitHub thread.  They far outnumber the voices that you
> hear on `talk` or `tagging`.
>
> In large part because of the escalating negativity, I will not be
> attending State of the Map.
>
> My strong recommendation to you is to fill the program with content that
> encourages community health, inspires people to be better to one another,
> and celebrates the great things people are building with OpenStreetMap.
>
> Thanks, Bryan
> ❤️, 🆔
>
>
>
> On May 29, 2019, at 5:55 AM, Christine Karch 
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
> the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
> could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
> discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
> and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
> someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
> later.
>
> As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
> suitable for the main program at SotM.
>
> Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
> during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).
>
> By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
> Program announcement will be around 20 June.
>
> We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
> if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
> be provided until end of July.
>
> Cheers
>
> Christine
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Documenting controversial iD decisions

2019-05-28 Thread John Whelan
The problem is www.openstreetmap.org has a link to edit OSM.  When it 
was first put in it probably was a very reasonable thing to do but we do 
not have a change management system in place and over time iD has changed.


The real problem is new mappers will naturally edit OSM through the link 
thinking it is the "official"way to do it and the editor has been tested 
and approved etc.


However as stated iD is evolving and is becoming more powerful.  I 
understand in NYC a relative newcomer using the new validation feature 
of iD has made a very large number of changes to NYC and that I think is 
the sort of thing we wish to avoid.


So mentally split the idea of ID as an editor and what should be the 
default editor for newcomers for OSM.  The requirements seem to be 
different.  If iD is not the default editor on www.openstreetmap.org 
then treat it the same as any other OSM editor.


If it is then I think it needs to be held to a higher standard that 
protects new mappers from creating havoc.  Whether this is a new mapper 
switch or a reduced fork of iD or a requirement that you cannot edit the 
map unless you have completed an online course and passed an exam first 
I wouldn't like to say.  I do know that HOT for example has very high 
turn over of mappers so a forty hour training course might not be 
welcomed by everyone even if we could agree the syllabus.


Cheerio John

Clifford Snow wrote on 2019-05-28 8:10 PM:
Why should one editor be held to higher standards than others? 
Shouldn't they all be held to the same standard?


On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 4:53 PM john whelan <mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com>> wrote:


The problem with iD is the fact that it is the default editor on
the web page of the website which implies that everything is
OpenStreetMap approved which unfortunately is not the case.

If it's placed as the default editor then I think it needs to be
held to a higher standard or some sort of change management system
implemented.

Cheerio John

On Tue, May 28, 2019, 7:47 PM Clifford Snow,
mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>> wrote:

Michael,
Don't you think to be fair that you should include all outside
projects, such as JOSM, Potlatch, CartoCSS, etc? None of them
are controlled by OSMF as far as I know. To just look at one
software project seems like we already reached a decision, we
just need the data to back it up.

Best,
Clifford

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 3:47 PM Michael Reichert
mailto:osm...@michreichert.de>> wrote:

Hi,

I started documenting controversial decisions by the
maintainers of iD
at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ID/Controversial_Decisions

Currently, only the highway=footway and the nonsquare=yes
issue are
mentioned.

Please feel free to add other issues which have proofed
controversial so
far. Don't forget to summarise the opinion of the
maintainer as well to
aim at least some neutrality as far as it is possible for
those involved
in the disputes. Please add links to relevant discussions
as well.

Best regards

Michael


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Re: [OSM-talk] Documenting controversial iD decisions

2019-05-28 Thread john whelan
The problem with iD is the fact that it is the default editor on the web
page of the website which implies that everything is OpenStreetMap approved
which unfortunately is not the case.

If it's placed as the default editor then I think it needs to be held to a
higher standard or some sort of change management system implemented.

Cheerio John

On Tue, May 28, 2019, 7:47 PM Clifford Snow, 
wrote:

> Michael,
> Don't you think to be fair that you should include all outside projects,
> such as JOSM, Potlatch, CartoCSS, etc? None of them are controlled by OSMF
> as far as I know. To just look at one software project seems like we
> already reached a decision, we just need the data to back it up.
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 3:47 PM Michael Reichert 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I started documenting controversial decisions by the maintainers of iD
>> at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ID/Controversial_Decisions
>>
>> Currently, only the highway=footway and the nonsquare=yes issue are
>> mentioned.
>>
>> Please feel free to add other issues which have proofed controversial so
>> far. Don't forget to summarise the opinion of the maintainer as well to
>> aim at least some neutrality as far as it is possible for those involved
>> in the disputes. Please add links to relevant discussions as well.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> --
>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>> ausgenommen)
>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Improving iD on osm.org (WAS: Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform)

2019-05-28 Thread john whelan
Do we need the editor on the web page to be the latest and greatest?

I think a basic editor that allows you to add lines ie highways etc. POIs
with tags should meet 95% of a casual mapper's needs if not more.

A trimmed down stable version of iD should meet these requirements.

I think the first task is to determine what the requirements are for casual
mapping from the web page.  My thoughts are it is there as an introductory
tool and as such a complex editor may well overwhelm a new mapper.

There are other tools available for more complex mapping.

Cheerio John

On Tue, May 28, 2019, 5:53 PM Michael Reichert, 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am 28.05.19 um 10:32 schrieb Frederik Ramm:
> > I think this would definitely be the healthiest and most common-sense
> > approach for the community. Letting an unchecked third party forge ahead
> > with iD was good in the beginning but now we need some checks and
> > balances in place to ensure that what the OSMF brandishes as the
> > "default editor" is actually reflecting community consensus.
> >
> > It's totally ok if the developers don't want to be bothered with having
> > to find out what the community consensus is(*) - this is hard enough
> > even for the community itself.
> >
> > Perhaps it is possible to have a forked iD that does not work by
> > meticulously cherry-picking every new change that is added to iD
> > (because that would be too much work), but instead - a bit like the
> > mechanisms when building a Debian or Ubunutu package - we could have
> > some patches that we routinely apply to iD before it goes live on our
> site.
> >
> > We could use this contentious "tag upgrade" as a test balloon to
> > establish the new workflow: iD releases new version -> patch team
> > applies existing patches -> community review -> if necessary, new
> > patches are made -> patch team releses -> OSMF website deploys.
>
> I am not sure if pure patching (a hard fork) will work on the long term.
> Adding a blocking step in the release process might work in the
> beginning but after some time the members of the distribution team loose
> interest. In difference to projects with a volunteer dominated group of
> contributors as OSM Carto, the distribution team will not produce a lot.
> In contrast, its task is filtering. This can be torpedoed by the
> maintainers of the parent project by code changes requiring a tedious
> and boring application of the patches and the user base will ask what
> the benefit of the distribution team will be and why we need such a
> group at all. I have been active in WeeklyOSM for almost five years now.
> I have seen people joining and becoming inactive after some time. I have
> observed myself becoming more or less involved (varies a bit over time).
> It needs discipline and a large team to get an issue almost every week.
>
> I am pretty sure that there is another way to enable distributors of iD
> to build the iD they want. iD could offer a couple of switches in a
> central source file to disable or enable certain, controversial or not
> always necessary features. (This idea is inspired by build flags for C
> programmes but different) This concept might still need the application
> of patches to the central file but patching a single file which is
> basically a list of variable assignments appears easy to me.
>
> These build flags enable the maintainers to stay to their personal views
> on disputed matters but enables local communities more easily to host
> their local iD and therefore foresters diversity. If the maintainers add
> another feature which is not accepted for www.openstreetmap.org, the
> distribution team can still fall back on patching with all its
> consequences.
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

2019-05-28 Thread john whelan
I would support a forked version of iD as a default editor on the home page.

I think OpenStreetMap is mature and complex enough now to start using
techniques like change management which are used in the IT world to manage
change.  It is common practice in corporate IT.

Cheerio John

On Tue, May 28, 2019, 4:35 AM Frederik Ramm,  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 27.05.19 12:07, Simon Poole wrote:
> > As I see it we can choose between
>
> [...]
>
> > - deploy from a forked iD that is selective with respect to which
> > commits are integrated (IMHO too much work)
>
> I think this would definitely be the healthiest and most common-sense
> approach for the community. Letting an unchecked third party forge ahead
> with iD was good in the beginning but now we need some checks and
> balances in place to ensure that what the OSMF brandishes as the
> "default editor" is actually reflecting community consensus.
>
> It's totally ok if the developers don't want to be bothered with having
> to find out what the community consensus is(*) - this is hard enough
> even for the community itself.
>
> Perhaps it is possible to have a forked iD that does not work by
> meticulously cherry-picking every new change that is added to iD
> (because that would be too much work), but instead - a bit like the
> mechanisms when building a Debian or Ubunutu package - we could have
> some patches that we routinely apply to iD before it goes live on our site.
>
> We could use this contentious "tag upgrade" as a test balloon to
> establish the new workflow: iD releases new version -> patch team
> applies existing patches -> community review -> if necessary, new
> patches are made -> patch team releses -> OSMF website deploys.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> (*) Though the way they have let us know their disdain for what I feel
> is the community really isn't very mature and I think that Andy is right
> in pointing out that an apology is in order -
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6442 - unless of course the
> the iD project's Code of Conduct has some magic "does not apply to
> maintainers" feature.
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Why we square buildings (WAS: iD invents nosquare=yes for buildings which should not be squared)

2019-05-11 Thread john whelan
>Are buildings with rectangular corners buildings mappers from developed
countries want to see on a map because they look more professional/tidy? ;-)

I think the original problem was some buildings mapped in Nepal were of
very poor quality and one way to pick them out quickly was to look for none
squared buildings.

My personal view is if you square a building you are approximating and that
is never good on the quality side.

Cheerio John

On Sat, May 11, 2019, 3:38 PM Michael Reichert, 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am 11/05/2019 um 21.09 schrieb Simon Poole:
> > Just a general remark on the technical issue that sparked of this
> > discussion:  squaring buildings is not primarily about improving data
> > quality. Non-square buildings are simply visually annoying when
> > rendered, so much that I support squaring them "as a rule" too when it
> > can reasonably be assumed that there are 90° angles in the actual
> > building outline. But I'm not kidding myself that it improves "quality".
> > If we wanted to define quality of building outlines in OSM we would
> > probably be talking about deviations from the buildings footprint area,
> > average deviations from the outline and so on, any of these could be
> > very small even without squaring. Actually, squaring might impact them
> > negatively, particularly when the outline is rough, but as said: square
> > buildings are just so much easier on the eyes :-).
>
> Are buildings with rectangular corners buildings mappers from developed
> countries want to see on a map because they look more professional/tidy?
> ;-)
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD invents nosquare=yes for buildings which should not be squared

2019-05-09 Thread john whelan
I agree it's a bad idea inflating the database size and I don't agree that
all buildings should be square.  Let iD warn about buildings mapped in this
session by all means but that does not require all existing buildings to be
square.

Cheerio John

On Thu, 9 May 2019 at 18:02, Jmapb  wrote:

> On 5/9/2019 4:14 PM, Michael Reichert wrote
>
> > Quincy Morgan, one of the maintainers of iD, invented a new tag called
> > nosquare=yes today which should be added to buildings which are not
> > square and should not be flagged by iD's validator.
>
> This strikes me as a pretty bad idea. I map in NYC where we have lots,
> lots, lots of nearly-square buildings with official footprints imported
> from the city's open data initiative. When a mapper not familiar with
> the history here gets a message from iD (which, to many mappers, is
> indistinguishable from getting a message from OSM itself) encouraging
> them to square a building, they'll do it because it seems like the right
> thing to do. So the official, highly-accurate footprints are lost. And
> adjacent buildings with shared nodes are also distorted.
>
> If I were to communicate with this mapper and say "Hi, welcome, please
> don't square the buildings" it will simply be confusing because the
> official editor, hosted at https://www.openstreetmap.org, told them they
> should.
>
> JOSM's validator used to flag nearly-square buildings here, and it
> caused thousands of unnecessary and inaccurate updates to building
> footprints. And of course people doing these thought they were doing the
> right thing -- if the validator says there's a problem, there's a
> problem, right? Fixing it is helping the map!
>
> I'd hate to see iD go down the same road. And I certainly don't want to
> mass-tag all of NYC's imported buildings with nosquare=yes.
>
> J
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

2019-04-07 Thread john whelan
This is good we have a quality control mechanism even if it is a blunt
instrument, and we think the risk is low on the TRA side.

Thank you for your input.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 19:07, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 07/04/2019 23:37, john whelan wrote:
>
> > Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on
> OSM tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.
>
> ...
> With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested presets
> the impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or the
> "directions" are not crystal clear and let's face it not all mapper's first
> language is English and reading through instructions is not fashionable in
> some quarters.
>
> That's not borne out by what I see with a DWG hat on - we get to see quite
> a lot of complaints about problems caused by new mappers, and complaints
> about mistagging due to an editor preset in iD is pretty rare.  New mappers
> making faux pas due to misunderstanding JOSM, on the other hand, is pretty
> common.  That doesn't mean that one editor is inherently "good" and the
> other "bad" - they're different tools for different jobs.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

2019-04-07 Thread john whelan
> Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM
tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.

There is a concept of Threat Risk Assessment which more or less says to
manage risk you take into account the impact if it goes wrong.  If we have
individual mappers making decisions on tags then if they get one wrong no
big deal the impact on the overall map is small.

With something like iD spoon feeding new mappers with suggested presets the
impact is much greater if something isn't quite right or the "directions"
are not crystal clear and let's face it not all mapper's first language is
English and reading through instructions is not fashionable in some
quarters.

I have two thoughts one is simply we have discussed the matter and accepted
that the TRA is acceptable, the other comes back to your point about
decisions being made.  Should there be a reviewing committee before
implementation? This is a more formal approach than OSM has traditionally
taken but we have grown in size and perhaps it is time to be more formal
for somethings these days.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 18:23, Paul Norman  wrote:

> JOSM has also done the same, and gone farther with creating new tags on
> its issue tracker.
>
> Developing an editor requires making decisions and having opinions on OSM
> tagging. This in turn means getting it wrong sometimes.
>
> On Apr 7, 2019 5:43 AM, John Whelan  wrote:
>
> I note that the matter has been raised in talk-de and mentioned in osm
> weekly.
>
> Tagging is not always easy, but I do have concerns when iD is so commonly
> used but the recommended tags do not align with OpenStreetMap I'll say
> normals.
>
> Specifically one of my concerns is a semi-detached house is not recognised
> in iD only the more general tag house.
>
> JOSM I think is much more open than iD but given the way OpenStreetMap
> functions I suspect ID is a much more closed environment.
>
> For example JOSM has the buildings_tool plugin, Africa has a large number
> of odd shaped buildings mapped in iD.
>
> Thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>
> Thanks John
>
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD influencing tagging

2019-04-07 Thread john whelan
and I think this is precisely my concern.

Tagging is not always easy, highways in Africa are an example.  See a dirt
track in Europe and its probably a highway=track.  In Africa it probably
isn't.

Cheerio John

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 11:51, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 7. Apr 2019, at 16:44, Bryce Jasmer  wrote:
> >
> > Can you give some examples of what the OSM normals are and how iD
> differs from them?
>
>
> from time to time the iD developers don’t like the established tagging and
> prefer to make iD tagging presets for new tags which they believe are
> better.
> Now while everybody is free to use any tag she likes, I would not expect
> the OpenStreetMap-Foundation standard editor to introduce new tags through
> presets. Good practice for default presets (e.g. in JOSM) is to use tags
> that are already well established. Generally we want our tags to be
> standing on a broad basis, we encourage discussion prior to using them. The
> development team of an editor is typically too restricted to be considered
> a broad basis. Tagging discussions in Github are also defacto excluding
> Jane Mapper from participating (because she doesn’t get aware of it).
>
> Cheers, Martin
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