Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Karin Spaink,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 21:19:35 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Monday, September 18, 2000, 2:19:35 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Karin Spaink wrote:


> At 16:01 17-09-2000 +0200, Dierk Haasis kindly wrote:

> Another reason is that TB's editor seems to have
> acquired religious status here: there are staunch 
> defendors who will say that perseverance will bring 
> enlightenment, while others grab a comment on TB's 
> editor and use it in their personal crusade. Such 
> ritual fights tend to irritate me.

Personally I have stayed more or less out of editor fights as I find
my usage in emails is fairly basic  and while the bat isnt my
favorite neither would others which have been proposed.
If v2 ever comes out I likely will use whatever external editor I like
best and which works smoothest




Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 16:01 17-09-2000 +0200, Dierk Haasis kindly wrote:
 >Sunday, September 17, 2000, 4:57:18 AM, you wrote:

 >> So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

 >  I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ... can't
 >  you as a professional writer not find other ways to express your
 >  feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good writing - is all
 >  about?
 >  Or ... are you ...?

Yes, I am a writer and I am very capable of expressing 
myself in myriad ways. But when I get terribly annoyed 
and want to bring that point across in a straight and 
direct manner, expletives are very efficient. That's why we have them.

The reason why I got annoyed was twofold: although I 
got a number of very friendly and helpful replies on 
this list, some people were very quick to write off my 
questions to newbeism and general lack of 
understanding (Steve Lamb spings to mind, who later 
even became downright insulting).
Another reason is that TB's editor seems to have 
acquired religious status here: there are staunch 
defendors who will say that perseverance will bring 
enlightenment, while others grab a comment on TB's 
editor and use it in their personal crusade. Such 
ritual fights tend to irritate me.

But I'll abstain from using expletives here in the future.
(Good thing that I just had a new .sig btw. You won't 
mind me not quoting it ;-) )

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 17:01 17-09-2000 +0200, Fred van Veen kindly wrote:

 >Karin, am I right?

You are ;-)

- K -

--
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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello John,


On  Sunday, September 17, 2000  at  14:33:45 GMT +0100 (which was 6:33 AM
where I live) witnesses say John Rainer typed:



> Thanks for the info, Marck, but I've tried the autoformat options and
> it still irritates. Pasting large amounts of text near the end of a
> line, in particular, always leaves a line outstanding

Marck posted a bug report about this some time ago.  It got much
debate, some thought it was correct, others not.  I don't think there
was any consensus.  But, lets not start that debate again, please?

> If there is a way to alter the default template settings, I wish I
> knew it before I had set up six accounts :(

Unfortunately, no.  What I have done is set up all my templates in
Quick templates.  Then my account default templates only require one
line:

%QInclude="Template Handle"

The biggest time savings comes when I change something in my template.
It automatically propagates through all accounts and all folders.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 20:35:42 +0200 GMT (18/09/2000, 02:35 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> Doesn anybody have any idea when version 2 will be released?

Do you have another question?  "Anytime soon." Remember Xanadu:
within the next six months.

Check out The Interview: http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/interview.html

KS>  > Also, kindly try exploring why there is a blank
KS>  > in front of the ">" of your replies. Did you do that on purpose?

KS> No. I apologize: I have been fiddling with my 
KS> eudora.ini and something got messed up. It should be 
KS> fuxed now: mai that I send to myself looks fine. Will 
KS> you please tell me when it is still inserting spaces before chevrons?

Still there.

OK, 3am, bed time for me. Good night!

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 14:25 17-09-2000 +0800, Thomas Fernandez kindly wrote:
 >Karin Spaink wrote:

 >KS>  >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

 >Just add "%Singlere" to your Reply Templates. I wish it would
 >be added as default, and reply counting a feature.

Excellent. Thank you.

- K -

--
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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 14:18 17-09-2000 +0800, Thomas Fernandez kindly wrote:
 >Karin Spaink wrote:

 >this is the night shift, and I usually only get to see interesting
 >threads after they have been dead-horsed. so I guess I'm lucky this
 >time. :-)

'Cept that meanwhile I went to bed and missed the night shift ;-)

 >Is it only me, or is this thread about editor preferences? No, Steve,
 >mentioned the same. Well, the editor is not going to change, as the
 >developers concentrate on the email funcitonality. However, a version
 >2 is in preparation, and this one will allow you to choose your
 >preferred external editor.

Doesn anybody have any idea when version 2 will be released?

 > Also, kindly try exploring why there is a blank
 > in front of the ">" of your replies. Did you do that on purpose?

No. I apologize: I have been fiddling with my 
eudora.ini and something got messed up. It should be 
fuxed now: mai that I send to myself looks fine. Will 
you please tell me when it is still inserting spaces before chevrons?

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Tony Boom,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 15:42:32 +0100 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 9:42:32 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Tony Boom wrote:


> This message: 17/09/2000 15:42 GMT.

> Hello Januk,


>   A reminder of what Januk ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
>   17 September 2000 at 01:09:59 GMT -0700

JA>> Why do you need to sleep?  

I donot have to, it just happens sometimes. ALSO to some customers
amusement when installing a windows...


>   I have a week old baby keeps asking me the same question :-)



Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Fred van Veen,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:01:18 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 10:01:18 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Fred van Veen wrote:


> Karin is a Dutch Journalist and probably one of the most mailed persons
> (including lots of hate mails) here in the Netherlands.


So what?
This an international mailing list. Nothing to do with whats she
writes or not in some Dutch rag. Most had an extreemly limited choice
of words from what I remember...

On the other hand it seems to me we are well headed to a farm of dead
 horses



Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Dierk Haasis,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 16:01:04 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 9:01:04 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Dierk Haasis wrote:


> Hello Karin!

> Sunday, September 17, 2000, 4:57:18 AM, you wrote:


>> client. So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

>   I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ... can't
>   you as a professional writer not find other ways to express your
>   feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good writing - is all
>   about?

>   Or ... are you ...?

Being Dutch myself and luckily for many years in the situation where I
donot have to read what the goverment considers to be 'writers' or
look at what they consider 'painters', subsidised by our wasted
tax money, I can asure you that there ware very few real good writers
in the Netherlands... One of the reasons I started to read mainly
English while at school as I read a lot  and it was virutally
impossible to find anything I liked.

Secondly there was this generation of writers growning farms of 'chili
peppers' like steve grows horses if he forgets himself (g).
'if it doesnt have peppers nobody wants to read it' (g)


While I have been years away from the Netherlands I would say chances
we have here a famous writer fighting with the Bat are about the same
as me winning the Thai corrupt lottery..


Best regards,
 
tracer

PS, My website has undergone a chance, from being a total disaster it
now at looks like a website, still no data and addresses there...
As you may guess as I am absolutely not artistic its not my doing it
now looks better, its a kind of exchange of services (g)
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 05:01:18PM +0200, Fred van Veen wrote:
> You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?))

Because I'm right, have been right for nearly a decade and grew weary of
explaining to all the newbies to the online world why their brand spanking new
"wisdom", hard earned all of it, is wrong years ago.

> Karin is a Dutch Journalist and probably one of the most mailed persons
> (including lots of hate mails) here in the Netherlands.

I've been participating in mail client mailing lists for the past 6+
years, spent 4 years on the beta team of one client, regularly use 3 in my day
to day operatons, have tested over 30+ across 4 different platforms, have read
a few of the base RFCs that mail was founded on, am slowly working on my own
email client (planning stages only right now) and have been an active
participant in eletronic communications for almost 20 years now.

So, you tell me, which one of us, me or her, just /MIGHT/ have an
understanding of why things are the way they are and have just the slightest
reason to speak authoratively upon the subject, hm?

When I start pontificating on how Dutch Journalists should do their work
I'll be more than happy to take her words under advisement and give them the
weight they deserve for I will be in her element.  
   
As for arrogance, it is simple, I've grown weary of having to tell newbie
netizens who just discovered email as a very convenient form of communication
why all their recently found "wisdom", all hard earned, I'm sure, is wrong.  I
have the joy of seeing a good 30-50 people a year bring up the same points,
every single year.  Not a one understands the technology as well as they
should to be speaking on the matter and none of them, not a one, ever wants to
listen to those who do.  I've gotten quite tired of being kind so I stopped
many years ago.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:52:07AM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:
> S>> Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced
> S>> set up a lunch date.
 
> FvV> You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?))
 
> 
> I have to agree with you here Fred. One of the list rules states:
> 
> 3. Do not turn a discussion into a slanging match by resorting
>to personal insults and/or derogatory remarks.
> 
> His statement is clearly in breach of this rule and a warning has been
> issued.
> 


Apparently you don't know the meaning of insult and/or derotatry remarks.
Here, let me give you an example.

When you put your moderator hat on why is it, white, point and have the
word dunce on it?

That concludes my example.  Now, care to give a rebuttal on how setting a
lunch date is as derogatory as that?


-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:22:29PM +0100, Tony Boom wrote:
> SL> Hello, I stick with it and after 18 months I still hate it.
 
>   So can we assume you won't be buying the company?

You never know.  If that is the only way to get that lame-duck feature
removed I might just do that.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Chuck,

On 17 September 2000 at 09:54:01 GMT -0500 (which was 15:54 where I
live) Chuck Mattsen wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

CM> You  know,  for  people who claim to be so all-fired offended by a
CM> word  here  and  there  and who can't wait to take someone to task
CM> over  it  in  this  public  forum,  y'all  certainly seem to enjoy
CM> repeating it over and over by pasting it into your messages.

Thank  you,  Chuck. Quite correct. I have been at pains to censor such
expletives with surreptitious use of *'s and would request that anyone
who  feels the need to leap to the defence of the morality of the list
should  take similar care when quoting (and before anyone tries to get
"clever"  about  it, yes I did say the same to Allie who is new in the
job so cut him some slack, okay? )

CM> ...  so  why not just leave it the frel alone. (Farscape reference
CM> for any fans out there).

You can count me in on that one, Sparky ;-)!

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY> ]

 Kids Stuff:
Genetics explain why you look like your
father and if you don't why you should.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 17:01:18 +0200, Fred van Veen wrote:

S>> Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced than
S>> set up a lunch date.

FvV> You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?))


I have to agree with you here Fred. One of the list rules states:

3. Do not turn a discussion into a slanging match by resorting
   to personal insults and/or derogatory remarks.

His statement is clearly in breach of this rule and a warning has been
issued.


- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
** "Point not found. A)bort, R)eread, I)gnore. "

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 15:51 GMT.

Hello Gerd,


  A reminder of what Gerd ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 12:36:32 GMT +0200 in relation to Karin.

GE> - From what I read in this thread, TB! seems not to be your favourite client ?!

   I have to agree with Gerd and I get the impression (Although I may be
   wrong) that you are trying to provoke inflamed tempers. Members of
   this list are very sympathetic to new TB users and they have the same
   attitude to users who have been using TB for years. I for one never
   feel any embarrassment when asking something that may seem so simple
   to others on this list.

   It is in the interest of everyone on this list to promote TB and to
   provide as many answers as possible. I feel your attitude maybe,
   despite the amount of people that have tried to help you, a little
   too aggressive for a newcomer.

   You are quite clearly not impressed with TB so may I direct you to
   this site.

   http://www.softwareblast.com/

   Here your will find literally dozens of email clients one of which is
   bound to be to your liking. You won't however find such a helpful
   user group for ANY of them.

-- 
_
 
Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
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 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 16:22 GMT.

Hello Steve,


  A reminder of what Steve ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 05:12:02 GMT -0700

SL> Hello, I stick with it and after 18 months I still hate it.

  So can we assume you won't be buying the company?
  

-- 
_
 
Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
 Windows 98 ME 4.90 Build 3000 
 

 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 15:42 GMT.

Hello Januk,


  A reminder of what Januk ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 01:09:59 GMT -0700

JA> Why do you need to sleep?  


  I have a week old baby keeps asking me the same question :-)

-- 
_
 
Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
 Windows 98 ME 4.90 Build 3000 
 

 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Fred van Veen]

Hello All,
On 17-9-2000 12:08:35, Steve wrote:

S> On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:21:01AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
>> Is it now. 

S> Yes, it has been explained to you several times.

>> I have been on the net for six years and nobody ever told me that they were
>> aggreviated by the fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
>> read my and theirs contributions with.

S> Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced than
S> set up a lunch date.

Steve,

You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?))

Karin is a Dutch Journalist and probably one of the most mailed persons
(including lots of hate mails) here in the Netherlands.

Karin, am I right?


-- 
Fred
The Netherlands

Sybil: Oh, do get a move on! We've got a busy day. I've got the laundrymen coming.
Basil: The laundrymen?! My God! A woman's work is never delegated, is it. 

Fawlty Towers


Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/6

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Chuck Mattsen]

On Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 9:01 AM or thereabouts, Dierk
Haasis wrote the following about New user, lotsa questions:

DH> I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ...
DH> can't you as a professional writer not find other ways to
DH> express your feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good
DH> writing - is all about?

You know, for people who claim to be so all-fired offended by a word
here and there and who can't wait to take someone to task over it in
this public forum, y'all certainly seem to enjoy repeating it over
and over by pasting it into your messages.

For cripe's sake ... even if it did offend me (which it doesn't) I'd
have to admit that it's been addressed, not once but twice, by the
moderators now, who went to great pains to say, "Hey, we're handling
it," so why not just leave it the frel alone.  (Farscape reference
for any fans out there).

Chuck
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http://www.mindspring.com/~mattsen
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Random Thought/Quote for this Message:
 The greater the ignorance, the greater the dogmatism.



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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Dierk Haasis]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Karin!

Sunday, September 17, 2000, 4:57:18 AM, you wrote:


> client. So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

  I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ... can't
  you as a professional writer not find other ways to express your
  feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good writing - is all
  about?

  Or ... are you ...?

- --

Using The Bat! 1.46   under Windows 95 4.0 Build 1212 C

Dierk Haasis

Wenn man arbeitet, hat man keine Zeit, Geld zu verdienen.

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Dierk Haasis]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Januk!

Sunday, September 17, 2000, 5:14:37 AM, you wrote:


> Why would they?  They can't see what font you're using.  But if you
> try to do any formatting with variable width fonts, it looks really
> bad.  ^^  The word formatting should have a series of
> ^ characters under it.  If it does not, then you aren't using a
> monospaced font, and thus aren't seeing what I intended.  Of course I
> could use a RTF, but you're even less likely to be able to read them.

I hope I can calm us down a bit. Karin made one good point about
Eudora and fonts: You can change them with the click of a button.
Since most "formatting" in e-mail is IMHO not that important (see
Steve's or other's signatures) I use this feature in Agent sometimes.
If there is a signature or some highlighting like yours I click on
"FP", look at it and done. Nice feature.

Oh, and Karin, I see aou are from the Netherlands. Not that far
culturally from Germany, or? And that's where I am from and I can
totally see your point with the tab/blank line but Steve is right, in
e-mail and other electronic text blank lines for paragraphs are kind
of standard. And other than in books or letters (but have a look at
business letters!) I think it good. Yes, I am a professional writer,
too, for some years now.


- --
Using The Bat! 1.46
under Windows 95 4.0 Build
1212  C

Dierk Haasis

Our country is at that awkward stage: It's too early to shoot the bastards, and too 
late for working within the system to do any good.

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[John Rainer]

MDP> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
MDP> Hash: SHA1

MDP> Hi John,

MDP> On 17 September 2000 at 08:32:16 GMT +0100 (which was 08:32 where I
MDP> live) John Rainer wrote and made these points on the subject
MDP> of "New user, lotsa questions":

JR>> - all I want text to do is to fully word wrap at a fixed number of
JR>> characters and to insert a blank line when I hit Return, but the
JR>> autoformat and word wrap options still seem to do baffling things!
JR>> Messages that are heavily edited seem to require both endless
JR>> selection and alt-L keystrokes just to properly wrap.

MDP> That  is  because you have auto-format turned off. Ctrl-Shift-F is the
MDP> auto-format  toggle key and I use it often. Most of the time I have it
MDP> on and edited text is re-flowed as I type.

Thanks for the info, Marck, but I've tried the autoformat options and
it still irritates. Pasting large amounts of text near the end of a
line, in particular, always leaves a line outstanding and the cursor
sometimes hops down to a new line instead of staying at the end of the
pasted text, for reasons I haven't yet worked out. For instance, if I
copy what I have written so far, with autoformat and wordwrap on, and
paste it close to the end of a line, part of the copied text on one
line goes way beyond the word wrap limit, even if I go on to a new
para, so it's back to alt-l to bring it back in again. However, if I
add a character to text within the offending para, it re-aligns
automatically. Aaargh! I just want it to wrap like most other Windows
program (drums heels on floor and screams). It also used to do other
quirky things, like indenting new lines on hitting Return, which I
think was template based and involved trawling through all the
accounts I had set up to get rid of it. If there is a way to alter the
default template settings, I wish I knew it before I had set up six
accounts :(

Cheers

John

Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play?



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 10:25:46AM +0100, Tony Boom wrote:
>   Stick with it and like Mark, myself and many others, I'm sure you'll
>   come to love it.

Wow, that's what, the 5th one now?  Sheesh.  Hello, I stick with it and
after 18 months I still hate it.  Some people just don't like the computer
doing something without explicit instructions.  This is one case.  Put the
cursor where it is supposed to go, durn it!

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi John,

On 17 September 2000 at 08:32:16 GMT +0100 (which was 08:32 where I
live) John Rainer wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

JR> - all I want text to do is to fully word wrap at a fixed number of
JR> characters and to insert a blank line when I hit Return, but the
JR> autoformat and word wrap options still seem to do baffling things!
JR> Messages that are heavily edited seem to require both endless
JR> selection and alt-L keystrokes just to properly wrap.

That  is  because you have auto-format turned off. Ctrl-Shift-F is the
auto-format  toggle key and I use it often. Most of the time I have it
on and edited text is re-flowed as I type.

I hit return /twice/ to start a new paragraph.

I simply hit Ctrl-Shift-F first
To butt lines up closely and not have them re-flowed.

I never need to use Alt-L (or Alt-J in my case) to re-flow my own text
manually unless I have forgotten to toggle auto-format.

JR> I think it is a wonderful program and no doubt there are power
JR> users who find the editor both powerful and useful but I did not
JR> buy it for its editing functions and for me it is a major
JR> irritation.

I hope the above tips help soothe that irritation.

JR> - perhaps the answer would be a configuration switch to use the
JR> Bat editor or for it to operate in the style of, say, Agent.

- From  your  described problem, I'd say the switch exists and it is the
auto-format  toggle.  The  behaviour  you describe is how TB acts when
that option is off.

HTH

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY> ]

 COLE'S LAW: Thinly sliced cabbage
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Gerd Ewald]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello Karin Spaink !


On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 00:29:40 +0200 GMT your local time,
which was 17.09.2000, 00:29 (GMT+0200) where I live, you wrote:

KS> Since  I  don't  like  the way that my fave e-mail
KS> program  Eudora  is  heading, I decided to try The
KS> Bat  for a while. It looks very much like the mail
KS> client  I might switch to, but after fiddling with
KS> it for a while - and checking the FAQ and the help
KS> files  - I still have a couple of questions.




- From what I read in this thread, TB! seems not to be your favourite client ?!

You apologize for being demanding; well, it's ok being demanding, but you have
to look for the right adress: neither the moderators nor Steve are the
programmers (please correct me someone if I'm wrong).

I suggest you list all corrections, additional features a.s.o to send them
to RITLABS. You won't change TB! by demanding these things from other users.


- --
Best regards,
 Gerd
==
Using The Bat! Version 1.46c

- 
I didn't write this; a very complex macro did.
- 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Tony Boom]

This message: 17/09/2000 10:22 GMT.

Hello Marck,




  A reminder of what Marck ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) typed on:
  17 September 2000 at 00:27:18 GMT +0100

MDP> Correct.  This  is  not  a bug. This is TB's (love it or hate .. and I
MDP> personally  love it) "virtual space". Place the cursor anywhere on the
MDP> page,  start  typing and it will stick. It is, IMHO, the right way for
MDP> fixed  pitch  WYSIWYG plain text editing to work. There are others who
MDP> disagree about this but they have, so far, been unable to persuade the
MDP> authors to make it optional.


  When I first started using TB! I personally had a great deal of trouble
  getting used to this. After a while it becomes second nature and I now
  struggle with other application that behave "Normally".

  Stick with it and like Mark, myself and many others, I'm sure you'll
  come to love it.

-- 
_
 
Best regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tony.

 Using The Bat! 1.46c S/N A27A5E65
 Windows 98 ME 4.90 Build 3000 
 

 Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=PGPkeyrequest

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:41:42AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then new massages get added
> to old (unread) messages.  That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I
> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've recieved do many here and
> w\so may there.

Sorry, I don't buy it.  Just look at the numbers and get over it.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:29:33AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> At 20:15 16-09-2000 -0500, A. Curtis Martin kindly wrote:
> 
>  >SL> Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
>  >SL> features of an editor.
> 
>  >She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.
> 
> I have. I use multiple accounts, I am filtering excessively, I am making
> standard replies and templates and what have you. 

Pst.  He was refering to advanced features in the editor.

> It is not. Try using notepad, hit Enter and then Tab, 
> and type. Will your soursor move up one line and undo your ?

Doesn't do that for me in TB! either.  Of course I'm not big on the
computer doing something when I don't tell it to.  

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:21:01AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> Is it now. 

Yes, it has been explained to you several times.

> I have been on the net for six years and nobody ever told me that they were
> aggreviated by the fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
> read my and theirs contributions with.

Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced than
set up a lunch date.

> And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole point of _not_ sending
> html and stylized shit that this allows end users to see what they get the
> way they want to see it? 

Yup.  So tell me, which perportional font do you use?  Is that different
than the font I use?  Yes?  Then why are you trying to impose your stylize
poo onto me?

> Isn't html meant to be just _structure_ which each end-user can apply their
> own lay-out to?

Nope.  What layout?

> Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should send their mail in
> stylized text or html with css, because only that way that get  to see it as
> _you_ meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the
> general idea.

No, I am saying that everyone should send in plain text, fixed-width font
because unlike perportional fonts and HTML/CSS that is the /ONLY/ way the
sender and receiver can see the same thing, EVER.

> I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ aloow me to switch from
> prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

Bully for it.  Too bad that it doesn't do the right thing and keep you in
fixed-width font so other people don't have to see your poorly formatted
documents.

> I got loads of mail too. And yes, I want to have an unobtrusive warning if
> any of my fave mailinglist have new contributions, and of course my known
> contacts get filtered into their appropriate mailboxes. 

You do have one.  Look at the folder list.  WOW, it's highlighted, it has
new mail!  Hey, in the "new mail" column it has 8.  That means 8 new mail in
that folder!  

> But if you'd think a bit beyond that, you'd understand that my inbox is the
> designated place for unexpected mail, and I would like to be automatically
> pointed there. 

Why?  Why would you want to point to unexpected mail instead of expected
mail?

> lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 

Look at the folder list.  By gosh-golly-gundrops, IT IS AN OVERVIEW!  You
don't know what a lack of an overview is until you've use mutt or pine and
tried to tell the olympic class yoyos who use it that you'd like an overview
and they point out that have a button to go to the next folder with unread
messages in it.

> think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
> especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
> or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will 
> show as nee. Exit overview.

Look at the pretty numbers.  I do the same thing and I always know where
new mail is.  In fact, I've been doing it that way for 5 years across two
accounts.  If course with TB! (Or Eudora if I were ever inclined to use that
non-threaded dungheap) I'd just use colors to denote that.

>  >If you are filtering then your mail isn't
>  >going to the inbox and, again, there is no need for it.
 
> Why do I suddenly get the idea that you're arrogant?

Took you that long, did it?

-- 
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:15:06AM +0100, Mark R Harding wrote:
> True enough but given that TB! runs under Windows exclusively (unless
> I really missing something...) then I think it is fair to assume that
> the Windows Keystroke standard is an acceptable common standard that
> everyone already knows... it may not be a pleasant fact but I'm sure
> it's true.

You keep missing the point.  There is no standard!  Yes, they adhere to
the CUA (I think that is it) standard but that doesn't define /EDITOR/
behavior only /KEYSTROKE/ behavior.  It doesn't define free caret or not.  It
doesn't define word wrapping or not.  It only defines movement, highlighting,
cut/copy/paste.  It doesn't even define move which is a basic edit command in
my eyes.  

> had to edit files under unix on a regular basis that I really disliked
> the emacs based editors because the keystrokes required were
> completely alien to me.  

Agreed.  But I don't like how people keep calling it a standard when it is
not.  "That isn't the standard way it works."  Well, since there is no
standard defined /NONE/ of the editors work the standard way!  In fact the
/ONLY/ "standard" editor that I know of is VI!  Why?  Because VI is the only
editor I know of that doesn't exist.  Sure, there are programs called vi on
lots of unix systems, also a lot of variants of vi (vim, elvis, etc).  However
the VI editor is defined in a paper separate of implementation.

> I guess we'll not get anywhere without an editor that suits our own
> preferences but for the majority of windows users that does mean 'what
> they already know' and TB! isn't that.  

This is what I object to.

How do you reflow a paragraph in the majority of Windows applications?

Oh, yeah.  Since the CUA standard only covered keystrokes and they know
the CUA standard keystrokes /EVERYTHING ELSE/ is subject to change on an
editor by editor basis.  That is why I continually refute the notion of a
"standard" way an editor acts under Windows and why it is "easier" to have
everything integrated.  The plain and simple fact is each "standard" editor is
different than every other "standard" editor on this platform and the user is
forced to /LEARN A NEW EDITOR/ every program.  TB! is no different.

> If they don't have the time/inclination to learn then they'll pass it over.

Bingo.  And they have to learn each time.

> I'm glad I invested the time to learn the editor - it's a benfit to me but
> maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones...

I'm glad I took the time to learn VIM.  So when will TB! let me use it
instead of hobbling me with its editor?

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:58:23AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

Nerve, no.  Stabbed the spinal cord?  Yes.

> Currently, for mail, I use the inbuilt Eudora one. But no, I wouldn't mind
> using Notepad as an editor, but I sure as hell don't want to need to invoke
> it myself. My mail client should.

Which is what every mail client and most BBSs did before Windows came
along.  It is, quite frankly, how it should have been done before the utter
force-fed crap that Microsoft has foisted on the masses as "easy".

> Don't use me for your own war, I'll refuse ;-)
>   I'd rather that somebody address the overkill issue.

Which I am doing.  Here it is, if the client called an external editor you
could define what features you wanted by calling a different editor.  This
leaves the authors of the mail client free to /FIX/ problems in their client.

Not that *cough*IMAP*cough* TB has any *COUGH*poor filter dialog*COUGH*
any, more mail or UI *cough*lack of inheiretance*cough* that needs to be
addressed.

> To not undo your CR and TAB? _That_ is what YTB is currently doing. I get
> kicked back to the previous line. I find that unacceptable.

Turn off auto-format.  My editors don't do that, when using TB! it doesn't
do that.  When I tell it to reflow a paragraph it does.  However, I don't have
that turned on by default.  I'd not complain about something you're telling it
to do.

> For advanced eatures: granted. But I wouldn't call allowing  
> advanced.

I would call auto-reformat advanced.  Don't like it, shut it off.

>  >On paper, yes.  In electronic mail, no.
 
> Says you. Besides, national habits and styles notwithstanding, who is my
> mail client to tell me what _my_ mails should look like?

No, says the online community which has been going on for 20+ years now.
As I said, you are now in the ONLINE culture.  It isn't national by any means,
it is its own culture.  As for your question your mail client is doing it
because:
A: it has a built in editor when it shouldn't.
B: You've chosen to tell it to tell you.

> Yes. Notepad will do. 

Of course there are more alternatives than Notepad.  Take a look at the
editors section of www.winfiles.com sometime.  They had to split it into three
sections because it is so large.  I find it amazing that the basic text editor
is one of the most fundimental interfaces into the computer that people will
have yet most people never think to get something that suits their needs in
90% of the cases in one editor.  Alas most of the people who don't look for an
editor that suits the majority of their work also are the same people who will
suffer with the crap $20 keyboard and $10 mouse that the brand name
manufacturers will foist on them.  *shrug*

> I dont want fancy stuff. I just want to be able to set my line length, my
> tabs, use CR's at will, have Ctrl-Z and that is basically it. I don't want
> another word porcessor. I have one. In my mail I want a simple text editor,
> and I won't mind it at all if I can use the plain text editors that I
> already have,

Exactly.  And you'd most likely be more productive because you would know
what the capabilities were.  That is why I'd love to use VIM and the more and
more I don't use TB! at home and use Mutt which calls VIM the more I lean
towards dropping TB! completely because my editing goes so much faster in VIM.
The /ONLY/ thing I miss in VIM is the auto-spellchecking.  All the other
features of VIM are far superior to TB!'s editor it isn't even funny.  Of
course the fact I use this editor for configuration file editing, coding,
mail & news writing and many, many other uses has something to do with that.  

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:59:50PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:
> The origin of this behaviour that is present in most Windows based
> editors that may have reason to use is pretty much besides the point.
> The reality is that if you are developing an application for Windows
> users then you are faced with this unfortunate fact and that is that
> most are accustomed to a certain behaviour or functionality.

Which still doesn't make it a standard.  What what is coding to is
perceptions, not a standard.  And 99% of what an editor does, IMHO, isn't even
in that perception.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Januk,

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 01:09:59 -0700 GMT (17/09/2000, 16:09 +0800 GMT),
Januk Aggarwal wrote:

>> due partly to the time difference. They fight when we sleep...

JA> Why do you need to sleep?  

Old habit. ;-)

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Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello tracer,


On  Sunday, September 17, 2000  at  14:56:07 GMT  +0700 (which was 12:56 AM
where I live) witnesses say tracer typed:


> due partly to the time difference. They fight when we sleep...

Why do you need to sleep?  


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[tracer]

Hello Thomas Fernandez,
On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 14:18:17 +0800 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, September 17, 2000, 1:18:17 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Thomas Fernandez wrote:



> this is the night shift, and I usually only get to see interesting
> threads after they have been dead-horsed. so I guess I'm lucky this
> time. :-)

due partly to the time difference. They fight when we sleep...



Best regards,
 
tracer


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Re[3]: New user, lotsa questions

[John Rainer]

MRH> A.,

MRH> Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

ACM>> I personally do like the free caret interface myself. Also, for me,
ACM>> TB!'s editor took some time to get accustomed to. It was a period of
ACM>> adjustment and giving and taking. The end result has been that the
ACM>> shortcomings for me do not exceed the good points. If TB! were to
ACM>> support an external editor, I would still use this one.

MRH> I would agree with this myself.  I took a while to learn the
MRH> differences between the Windows standard editor functionality and
MRH> TB!'s functionality but the free caret interface is something I find I
MRH> take advantage of regularly simply because it allows me to easily lay
MRH> out my text in a clearer and more 'creative' way.

I have to chip in here. I've been using The Bat for most of the year
and the editor is the one thing about the program that I find
annoying. For my needs, I don't need advanced formatting - all I want
text to do is to fully word wrap at a fixed number of characters and
to insert a blank line when I hit Return, but the autoformat and word
wrap options still seem to do baffling things! Messages that are
heavily edited seem to require both endless selection and alt-L
keystrokes just to properly wrap.

I think it is a wonderful program and no doubt there are power users
who find the editor both powerful and useful but I did not buy it for
its editing functions and for me it is a major irritation. I have to
agree with a previous mail that it is a culture-shocker - I've used a
number of other email programs over the years and they all followed
similar principles for typing in text but The Bat seems to have a mind
of its own.

Taking a while to learn the editor functions is all very well if you
need them, but for someone like myself who only needs the most basic
of editing functions, it seems unnecessarily complicated. If it wasn't
for its account handling, server interrogation, sorting/filtering and
html handling (no pulling back of html content) I would be looking
elsewhere. What have the Romans ever done for us :) Then again, you
can't please everybody - perhaps the answer would be a configuration
switch to use the Bat editor or for it to operate in the style of,
say, Agent.

John Rainer

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Graham]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On this one point, in the PGP-Basics newsgroup, a contributor using
GnuPG (through Linux) found that his signature couldn't be verified
by The Bat, whereas it showed up as "good" using a wide range of
mailers and even through PGPtray.

The problem appears to be with his comment line, which had two Tabs
in it.  These were converted to 16 spaces by The Bat, which messed up
his signature and The Bat couldn't verify it through its internal
processes.

As this did not happen with other mailers, I would suggest that The
Bat needs to be brought into line by a fix so that its handling of
PGP is the same for all messages.

On the subject of PGP, I cannot get PGP 2.6.3ai to be recognised by
The Bat, even though I can use it through Windows front ends such as
PGPClick and MailPGP quite easily.  The Bat's inbuilt PGP routines
use my 2.6.3ai keyring successfully and show encryption/signing with
PGP 2.6

Can anybody shed any light on this?

Graham

*** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***

On 16/09/00 at 20:36 Januk Aggarwal wrote:

>
>The one thing I really like about TB's TAB is that the TAB is
>replaced by an equivalent number of spaces.  I have seen so many
>editors treat a tab character in so many different ways that I've
>totally stopped
>using the TAB key.
>

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Version: Encrypted with PGP Plugin for Calypso

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VvtXOYz0feFiI6D2h6aIqlkN
=OVTc
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 03:58:23 +0200 GMT (17/09/2000, 09:58 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS>  >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

KS> Ouch. I was hoping that it was a glitch in the mailing 
KS> list software, but since I read that the mailinglist 
KS> was run through TB I feared that it was a TB habit.

KS> I'm not going to switich OS in order to find the perfect mail client ;-)

No need. Just add "%Singlere" to your Reply Templates. I wish it would
be added as default, and reply counting a feature.

KS> >Of course, falls back to my whole >"should use an external editor
KS> in the first place" kick.

KS> Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

One that was resolved a long time ago. See my other mail.

KS>  >BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?)

KS> She. Pic at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/images/write.html

Do you know this one:
http://www.marckp.redhotant.com/thebat/rogues.html 

I don't know who keeps it updated now, maybe Marck?

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
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using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Thomas Fernandez]

Hallo Karin,

this is the night shift, and I usually only get to see interesting
threads after they have been dead-horsed. so I guess I'm lucky this
time. :-)

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:57:18 +0200 GMT (17/09/2000, 10:57 +0800 GMT),
Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> It can -- and should  -- distinguish one paragraph 
>>from the other by a . No empty line should be needed.

KS>  >KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

This may well be your personal preference, I think it is not a country
standard.

Is it only me, or is this thread about editor preferences? No, Steve,
mentioned the same. Well, the editor is not going to change, as the
developers concentrate on the email funcitonality. However, a version
2 is in preparation, and this one will allow you to choose your
preferred external editor. Yes, you will be able to make it the
default, so it will fire up every time you create a new mail, or reply
to a mail.

KS> So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers?

I think there is a difference between an email client acting up as a
nanny, and a mailing list on the family channel. ;-)

KS>  >KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

KS>  >You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.

 I'll join Marck here. Also, kindly try exploring why there is a blank
 in front of the ">" of your replies. Did you do that on purpose?
 Because it messses up my colour coding: replies (anything that has a
 ">" character as one of the first 20 characters in the line) is shown
 in red instead of blue, so I can easily distinguish the new stuff.

-- 

Cheers,
Thomas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c
under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 
using an Intel Celeron 366Mhz, 128MB RAM



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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[ztrader]

On Saturday, September 16, 2000, 7:57:18 PM, you wrote:

KS>  >Please do not use language like this here.

KS> In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome message.

Most people do not need this spelled out for them, they just don't do
it as a matter of course in a polite group.

KS> So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

And even after being asked nicely, you still persist.

KS>  >KS> There's no discussing taste.

In your case, perhaps not.

I, too, prefer to have a forum that is free of profanity. I do hope
you find another email client and support list that pleases you.

(quickly jumps in fireproof suit, awaiting the flamers attack :-)

ztrader

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 19:54 16-09-2000 -0700, Januk Aggarwal kindly wrote:
 >Hello Karin,

 >> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then
 >> new massages get added to old (unread) messages.
 >> That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I
 >> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've
 >> recieved do many here and w\so may there.

 >You can have TB run a separate application each time a given filter is
 >run.  With a suitable scripting language, you may be able to achieve
 >the result you want.  Nick was only pointing out the possibilities
 >with the *current* implementation.

I am not sure that I follow you...
Yes, I discovered that TB's filters are quite 
powerful and that you can invoke other prgrams through 
them. And yes, I can play soundfiles whenever mail for 
TB arrives in its designated folder. But ion the end 
that would create quite a racket, and all I want is 
some kind of summary -- esp. in the morning, when I 
fire up my mailer and have 37 messages arriving.
As I said: the new messages feature doens't work for 
me, becasue within folders I don't always read 
immediatelty, and in TB those mailboxes will 
invaribaly show _all_ that is unread as new. While I 
am looking for a feature that shows me what is new, not unread.



- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Mark,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:25:39 GMT +0100 (which was 8:25 PM
where I live) witnesses say Mark R Harding typed:

> To think that all this time other people knew what was going only and
> I only had to ask... sheesh... don't I feel better?!

As I said in one of my posts to this threads, even some of the real
old timers need to ask questions sometimes.  

> Actually, that's great because it was the one part of the editor I
> didn't like much - I can see the use of it but equally I often 'think'
> in terms of jumping to the next '8th character' position so I just
> surprise myself when TB notices my previous line of text and nicks the
> cursor into no-mans land...  Thanks for explaining that one.

The one thing I really like about TB's TAB is that the TAB is replaced
by an equivalent number of spaces.  I have seen so many editors treat
a tab character in so many different ways that I've totally stopped
using the TAB key.

> On another note - all of Karin's replies have the quoted parts
> indented by a single space which means, in my view at least, that the
> funky red-emboldened text that usually highlights quoted text is not
> catching it.

That's a good way to ad a '>' character to the text without it turning
colour.  Any line that starts with a space is assumed to be not a
quoted line, regardless of the existence of the > character.

>  It's amazing how unaccustomed my eye is to separating the
> text without the colour demarcation.

I know the feeling.  It is a bit of a shocker when I use other
programs.  

>  Is there anything that can be
> done to remedy this?

Un/fortunately, not unless you export those messages, edit them
externally and then re-import.




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 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Karin,

On 17 September 2000 at 04:57:18 GMT +0200 (which was 03:57 where I
live) Karin Spaink wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

>> No  we're  not.  These  are  *technical*  issues  regarding how the
>> *editor* can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

KS> It can -- and should -- distinguish one paragraph from the other
KS> by a . No empty line should be needed.

TB  usesto  end  a line. When auto paragraph formatting is on,
there  is  *absolutely  no*  difference  between a line which has been
wrapped  at its' end with a  and a  you typed. Now, if can you
write a clairvoyance subroutine you could sell it to RIT labs to solve
this problem .

Trust  me.  An empty line *is* needed. It's not needed in /other/ mail
editors  because  they  don't give a fig about re-formatting a message
behind the sender's back, between hitting send and letting the message
out.

>> Sorry Karin but we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
>> Please do not use language like this here.

KS> In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome
KS> message.

We do: list Rules, Item 1, para b, section 2:

2. Do  not  use  profanity. Personally, I have no problem with
   it, but this list is not the place for it. If a list member
   is consistently abusive, they will be banned from the list.

KS> And now you say I can't say chili peppers? F**k.

Please - I've shown you the rule - this has to be your last warning.

KS> Good, and I had hoped that it would. But that addresses the look
KS> of the mail after sending, and doesn't guide your actions (i.e.
KS> cursor movements) while composing.

Nope,  TB  does  nothing  to  mail  text  after  sending  (other  than
sign/encrypt and dispatch). That's why it can't distinguish paragraphs
during composition. They are the same as wrapped lines unless there is
a blank line between.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY> ]

 Kids Stuff:
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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

A.,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

ACM> You seem to have ''Smart' Tabs' enabled in the editor preferences. With
ACM> this option enabled, the tabbing will vary depending on the situation.
ACM> The tabbing will always adjust in such a way that the cursor ends up in
ACM> line with the first letter of the line of text above.

... and I am yet further enlightened! ...

To think that all this time other people knew what was going only and
I only had to ask... sheesh... don't I feel better?!

Actually, that's great because it was the one part of the editor I
didn't like much - I can see the use of it but equally I often 'think'
in terms of jumping to the next '8th character' position so I just
surprise myself when TB notices my previous line of text and nicks the
cursor into no-mans land...  Thanks for explaining that one.

On another note - all of Karin's replies have the quoted parts
indented by a single space which means, in my view at least, that the
funky red-emboldened text that usually highlights quoted text is not
catching it. It's amazing how unaccustomed my eye is to separating the
text without the colour demarcation. Is there anything that can be
done to remedy this? - I presume the indented quoting style is a
feature of Eudora, yes?

Best wishes,

Mark.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 04:57:18 +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

KS>  One of the reasons why I want to dump Eudora is becuase of
KS> its stupid, patronizing and utterly ridiculous Moodwatch thingie,
KS> that grades "distrusted" words in e-mail with "chili peppers". (Too
KS> hot to handle.) Hence (and for some more, but this was the turning
KS> point), I started looking for another e-mail client. So I came here.
KS> And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.


This, unlike the first use of profanity, is in direct defiance of list
charter rules. A warning has been issued here. The rest of subscribers
need to know that this has been noted and dealt with. :-(


- --
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:21:01 GMT +0200 (which was 7:21 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> Is it now. I have been on the net for six years and
> nobody ever told me that they were aggreviated by the 
> fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
> read my and theirs contributions with.

Why would they?  They can't see what font you're using.  But if you
try to do any formatting with variable width fonts, it looks really
bad.  ^^  The word formatting should have a series of
^ characters under it.  If it does not, then you aren't using a
monospaced font, and thus aren't seeing what I intended.  Of course I
could use a RTF, but you're even less likely to be able to read them.

> And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole 
> point of _not_ sending html and stylized  that
   
Haven't you already gotten two warnings about that type of language on
this list?

> this allows end users to see what they get the way 
> they want to see it?

Nobody will argue that one.  But if you do things like producing
tables or ASCII art or any other formatting in plain text, fixed width
fonts are the only way to go and ensure that everyone can read them.

>  Isn't html meant to be just 
> _structure_ which each end-user can apply their own lay-out to?

No.  HTML is a markup language.  Thus the author creates the look that
they want to the message.  Different rendering engines may display it
slightly differently, but the basics are determined by the author.


>  >No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
>  >variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
>  >should.

> Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should 
> send their mail in stylized text or html with css, 
> because only that way that get  to see it as _you_ 
> meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the general idea.

I think you're missing the point.  Variable width fonts have *no*
common ground between fonts.  5 spaces in one fixed width font will
*look* like 5 spaces in any other fixed width font.

> I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ 
> aloow me to switch from prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

But this isn't Eudora.  For now, TB supports only one class of fonts.
The members of this list are trying to explain to you some of the
logic behind that decision.

> my inbox is the designated place for unexpected mail,
> and I would like to be automatically pointed there. 
> lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 

Currently the only way to come close to what you want is if you create
your own script in some external scripting language.  Then have TB
call this script whenever a given filter is used.

> Swans, so many; TheBat, so many; HippiesFromHell, so 
> many. The amount of new mail in each list does often 
> affect my curiostoty. And as for overview, I don't 
> think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
> especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
> or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will
> show as nee. Exit overview.

Why not use the message flagging or the colour groups?  If you want
mark them as unread, why should TB assume that they aren't new?  Some
have requested another marking such as "seen but not read," but it
seems redundant with all the features currently available.



-- 
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 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi David,

On 17 September 2000 at 19:43:34 GMT -0700 (which was 03:43 where I
live) David Tod Sigafoos wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

DTS> Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told
DTS> would never happen ..

No, you were told it wasn't the way it did it right now and we are all
anxious for the programmers to concentrate on V2 issues.

DTS> i was wrong ..

No,  you  were  told  that you were right and agreed with by everyone.
Even those that supported the opposite view had reservations.

DTS> and it was a dead horse.

Yes  -  because  we  had  all said the same thing over and over again.
There was no sense in rehashing the same argument.

DTS> Only to get a message from one of the developers saying .. yep ..
DTS> we're changing it .

Yes, because it was *the consensus*.

DTS> So who knows .. if enough of us work with it and ask for some
DTS> changes AND change the way we do things .. The Bat will improve.

..  as  it  has  continued  to do throughout the time we have all been
using  it.  It is very likely that v2 will see external editor support
and  better  option  selection to allow the in-built editor to be more
conformant   with  WinUser  expectations.  I  cut  my  compu-teeth  on
mainframe  terminals  and  (much  later) DOS editors, all of which had
free  carets and fixed pitch fonts. Even now, all the main programming
language  UIs  have  the same free caret and fixed pitch. I'm right at
home  here  . The consensus is less obvious on these issues than on
the registry/ini issue. Who can tell? It might happen anyway.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY> ]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:38 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:15:58PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:

 >> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

 >Free caret I considered advanced.

Wish it were. Then I could happily switch it off ;-)

 >> For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty standard.

 >Again, it is not a standard.  That is what I said.

Seconded.

 >and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as one since it isn't
 >published and can change on a whim.

Look at what Microsoft standards did to HTML.

- K -

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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 02:31 17-09-2000 +0100, Marck D. Pearlstone kindly wrote:
 >Karin Spaink wrote:

[tabs and paragraphs]

 >KS> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences
 >KS> here.

 >No  we're not. These are *technical* issues regarding how the *editor*
 >can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

It can -- and should  -- distinguish one paragraph 
from the other by a . No empty line should be needed.

 >KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

 >Maybe not, but in a plain text editor which offer paragraph formatting
 >you *have* to.

Not when I _end_ the paragraph, methinks

 >KS> Jurek  answered  that  one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
 >KS> ** up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.

 >^^
 >Sorry  Karin  but  we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
 >Please do not use language like this here.

In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome message.

 One of the reasons why I want to dump Eudora is 
becuase of its stupid, patronizing and utterly 
ridiculous Moodwatch thingie, that grades "distrusted" 
words in e-mail with "chili peppers". (Too hot to 
handle.) Hence (and for some more, but this was the 
turning point), I started looking for another e-mail 
client. So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck.

 >KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the
 >KS> fixed fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

 >Fixed  font  provides  exact  WYSIWYG  formatting and free caret helps
 >(most)  or  hinders  (some)  to  format  at will. Something else needs
 >explaining here: unused space is auto-stripped from the ends of lines.

Good, and I had hoped that it would. But that 
addresses the look of the mail after sending, and 
doesn't guide your actions (i.e. cursor movements) while composing.

 >>> You  can  filter your mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide
 >>> you with a virtual folder full of *all* of your new mail

 >KS> 
 >KS> 

 >I  keep my ticker DSR (down-stage right) about 1.5" across. It doesn't
 >impinge too much and lets me at my new mail *real* quick.

I'll try that one. Thanks for the tip.

Promised. I _will_ look at the keyboard stroke section 
of the FAQ with soem more scrutiny.

 >KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

 >You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.

 Thanks for the encouragement. That is kind. Plus, it fortifies me ;-)


- K -

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  04:41:42 GMT +0200 (which was 7:41 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> 'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then
> new massages get added to old (unread) messages. 
> That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I 
> don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've 
> recieved do many here and w\so may there.

You can have TB run a separate application each time a given filter is
run.  With a suitable scripting language, you may be able to achieve
the result you want.  Nick was only pointing out the possibilities
with the *current* implementation.


-- 
Thanks for writing,
 Januk Aggarwal
 See header for e-mail address

 Using The Bat! 1.46c
 under Windows 98 4.10 Build   A 

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 19:43:34 -0700, David Tod Sigafoos wrote:

DTS> As you are probably seeing there is a lot of 'we know everything' and
DTS> there is only ONE way to do things .. yada yada yada.  Try to let
DTS> these notes go by .. just sympathize.

DTS> The real thing is to look at The Bat and all of its features.  I have
DTS> moved to The Bat from Eudora.  Although there is a learning curve (and
DTS> a bit of patience) it is a good move.

DTS> Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told would
DTS> never happen .. i was wrong .. and it was a dead horse.

 Who said *anything* would never happen where TB!'s development
is going?

Anyway, this editor grouse is a really old one and very much has a lot
to do with the fact that slated features for version 2 of TB! include
editor support for variable width fonts and support for the use of an
external editor and or an alternative integrated editor.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey
- ---
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:17 16-09-2000 -0700, Nick Andriash kindly wrote:
 >On September 16, 2000, at 5:56:33 PM, Karin Spaink Wrote:

[tickeers, and filter reports]

 >> I don't want to have each and every header... I
 >> just would love to have a general overview. "The
 >> Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc...

 >That feature is one I truly enjoy with TB!... one quick look at my Folder
 >Tree, and I can see *exactly* how many new messages (unread) I've
 >received, and which Folder they reside in.

'Cept that I don;'t always read on the spot, and then 
new massages get added to old (unread) messages. 
That's where new and old start getting diffuse. I 
don;t want that. I want my mailer to say that I've 
recieved do many here and w\so may there.

 >Karin, in View/Split Mode, what do you have selected? I chose Full-height
 >Account Tree, and it gives me the view you request.

Full-width preview. Mailbox tree on the left, messages 
on the right, separate windows opening for actual 
messages (i.e. no preview). I need the space on both 
the right and the left: too many mailboxes, too much new mail.

- K -

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[David Tod Sigafoos]

Hello Karin,

Just a quick note ..

As you are probably seeing there is a lot of 'we know everything' and
there is only ONE way to do things .. yada yada yada.  Try to let
these notes go by .. just sympathize.

The real thing is to look at The Bat and all of its features.  I have
moved to The Bat from Eudora.  Although there is a learning curve (and
a bit of patience) it is a good move.

Heck .. one of the things I was complaining about I was told would
never happen .. i was wrong .. and it was a dead horse.  Only to get a
message from one of the developers saying .. yep .. we're changing it
.  So who knows .. if enough of us work with it and ask for some
changes AND change the way we do things .. The Bat will improve.

-- 
Hang in there,
 Davidmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:58:52 +0100, Mark R Harding wrote:


MRH> What does perplex me still is how exactly the tab key works.  My usual
MRH> experience from both Windows and Unix editors is that the tab key
MRH> indents the cursor position (either by a control-character or by
MRH> inserting extra white space as required) to the next 'tab-stop' which
MRH> is normally defined as a regular series of positions along the text
MRH> line - say ever 4,8,16 or however many characters.

Yes. The tabbing with TB!'s editor will tab in 8 characters at a time,
all the time, provided ''Smart' Tabs' is disabled in the editor
preferences.

MRH> In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
MRH> Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will jump
MRH> the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line leaving a
MRH> gap of about 60% page width.  If anyone here has the wisdom or
MRH> knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm a perplexed
MRH> person waiting for enlightenment... :)

You seem to have ''Smart' Tabs' enabled in the editor preferences. With
this option enabled, the tabbing will vary depending on the situation.
The tabbing will always adjust in such a way that the cursor ends up in
line with the first letter of the line of text above.

  So if I type this and start a new line, hit tab, I end up
  *here. See the new line starts in line with the one above.

With quoted material, it ignores the quote prefixing. So if I hit tab
below the following line:

allie>   Test line
 |the cursor ends up at the beginning of the quoted line
ignoring the prefix as above.

or

allie>  another test
|here it is.

or

> test
  |Here it is.

This is the method behind the madness of the Smart Tab. If you don't
like it, turn it off and your tabbing will be fixed at 8 characters. :-)

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA  |  PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937
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- ---
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 20:15 16-09-2000 -0500, A. Curtis Martin kindly wrote:

 >SL> Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
 >SL> features of an editor.

 >She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

I have. I use multiple accounts, I am filtering 
excessively, I am making standard replies and 
templates and what have you. But Steve is right in 
this: the editor sucks. I like most of what I see, but 
composing a message or replying to one is my one big hassle with TB.

 >She has been
 >complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and behaviour.
 >Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty
 >standard.

It is not. Try using notepad, hit Enter and then Tab, 
and type. Will your soursor move up one line and undo your ?

 >>Notice here he(?) says he is

 >I think he is a she. :-)

Let's call it a tie ;-)

- K -

--
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Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass


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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

Marck,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

MDP> TB's  TAB  is  set up for tabular entry. It keys on the spacing in the
MDP> line(s) above - no matter how far above - for tab stops. Like this:

MDP>Col1   Col2   Col3 Col4   Col5
MDP>Tab1   tab2   tab3 tab4   tab5

MDP> Only  in  a  blank  and  empty  editor  window  does  TAB  do anything
MDP> "sensible".

Aha - thank you, consider me suitably enlightened.  :)

Cheers,

Mark


-- 
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 Mark R Harding
 The Integrated Systems Group (Vision)
 Department of Electronics & Electrical Engineering
 The University of Edinburgh, King's Buildings, Mayfield Road
 Edinburgh. EH9 3JL. Scotland. U.K.

 Phone:  +44 (0)131 650 5662
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 18:05 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:56:33AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

 >> Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with.  And as I told Jurek: it
 >> feels as if somebdy is hammering it in. You _will_ 
have fixed fomts and even
 >> if you find your way around them. we will still 
make your message editor act
 >> asd if it were fixed font!

 >Trust us, it is the only way email should be.

Is it now. I have been on the net for six years and 
nobody ever told me that they were aggreviated by the 
fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and 
read my and theirs contributions with.

And if I may be so bold to ask -- isn't the whole 
point of _not_ sending html and stylized shit that 
this allows end users to see what they get the way 
they want to see it? Isn't html meant to be just 
_structure_ which each end-user can apply their own lay-out to?

 >> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences here. In my
 >> country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

 >Right, it is cultural.  It is the online culture to separate paragraphs
 >with a CR.  You're online, time to do as the romans do.

Thank you for kindly allowing me. And while you are the Romans, am I your Hun?

 >> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed fomt as
 >> the only alternative _and_ free caret?

 >No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
 >variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
 >should.

Nonsense. What you are saying is that everybody should 
send their mail in stylized text or html with css, 
because only that way that get  to see it as _you_ 
meant it. Ands last time I checked with RFC's, that was not the general idea.

 >The only sane solution is to use a fixed-width font so what you see
 >will closely approximate what they will see.  Again, refer to my signature as
 >an example.

I can see you .sig fine, thank you. Eudora _does_ 
aloow me to switch from prop. view to fixed view at the press of a button.

 >> I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over everything else -- plus, i
 >> still need to go to my inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and...

 >Feh, filter report is nasty anyway.  I don't want this stupid window
 >popping up every minute telling me I have new mail.

I am not telling you to want it. I am telling the list that _I_ miss it.

 >Yes, I check every minute
 >and during the day, on a busy day, I can get more than 1 mail a minute across
 >my accounts.  The fact that the folder list has 
hightlights and numbers of new
 >mail in each folder already tells me that I have new mail and where it is.

I got loads of mail too. And yes, I want to have an 
unobtrusive warning if any of my fave mailinglist have 
new contributions, and of course my known contacts get 
filtered into their appropriate mailboxes. But if 
you'd think a bit beyond that, you'd understand that 
my inbox is the designated place for unexpected mail, 
and I would like to be automatically pointed there. 
lus, I would like to have some kind of overview: 
Swans, so many; TheBat, so many; HippiesFromHell, so 
many. The amount of new mail in each list does often 
affect my curiostoty. And as for overview, I don't 
think that the mailbox-list overview works -- 
especially since I tend to mark mail-to-be-replied-to 
or -to-be-attended-to later as 'unmarked'. They will 
show as nee. Exit overview.

 >If you want it to bouce to your inbox chances 
are you're not filtering and
 >are already sitting in your inbox.

I am filtering abundantly, thank you very much.

 >If you are filtering then your mail isn't
 >going to the inbox and, again, there is no need for it.

Why do I suddenly get the idea that you're arrogant?

- K -

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   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

Steve,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

SL> That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.  There is a big
SL> difference.  AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what keystrokes do, not editor
SL> behavior.  There is a difference.  

True enough but given that TB! runs under Windows exclusively (unless
I really missing something...) then I think it is fair to assume that
the Windows Keystroke standard is an acceptable common standard that
everyone already knows... it may not be a pleasant fact but I'm sure
it's true.

For curiosity's sake, I just looked at the options available in
TextPad which is my preferred Windows editor for all my other text
manipulation tasks.  Textpad offers the following choices...

 TextPad
 Brief
 IBM Personal Editor
 Microsoft Applications
 Textpad 2
 Wordstar

I would assume that the target to hit to make the most users happy is
the 4th one - the Microsoft Applications - given that it covers the
most bases on a Windows platform.  I don't know if any of the above
approach the CUA standard you mentioned but I recall from the days I
had to edit files under unix on a regular basis that I really disliked
the emacs based editors because the keystrokes required were
completely alien to me.  Yes, I know that emacs can adopt Windows like
functionality and that it probably is the most ultra-extensible editor
in the world but I ended up using either nEdit for its Windows-like
keystroke compatibility or vim if the job was quick and simple.

I guess we'll not get anywhere without an editor that suits our own
preferences but for the majority of windows users that does mean 'what
they already know' and TB! isn't that.  If they don't have the
time/inclination to learn then they'll pass it over.  I'm glad I
invested the time to learn the editor - it's a benfit to me but maybe
I'm just one of the lucky ones...

Cheers,

Mark


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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Mark,

On 17 September 2000 at 02:58:52 GMT +0100 (which was 02:58 where I
live) Mark R Harding wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

MRH> In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
MRH> Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will
MRH> jump the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line
MRH> leaving a gap of about 60% page width. If anyone here has the
MRH> wisdom or knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm
MRH> a perplexed person waiting for enlightenment... :)

TB's  TAB  is  set up for tabular entry. It keys on the spacing in the
line(s) above - no matter how far above - for tab stops. Like this:

   Col1   Col2   Col3 Col4   Col5
   Tab1   tab2   tab3 tab4   tab5

Only  in  a  blank  and  empty  editor  window  does  TAB  do anything
"sensible".

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY> ]

 My reality cheque just bounced
 
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

At 17:47 16-09-2000 -0700, Steve Lamb kindly wrote:
 >On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:36:13AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

 >> 1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the Subject line and suddenly
 >> gets "Re[2]: etc" instead of your standard "Re: etc"?

 >TB! loves to count replies for some reason.

Ouch. I was hoping that it was a glitch in the mailing 
list software, but since I read that the mailinglist 
was run through TB I feared that it was a TB habit.

 >You can turn that off in the
 >templates.  The exact macro eludes me at the moment.  Again, on Linux, not
 >Windows.

I'm not going to switich OS in order to find the perfect mail client ;-)

 >> 2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What 
I added (new CR's) can be
 >> undone, but what I inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought back.

 >That always annoyed me.  Call it a bug.

If I am correct in my assessment, it's a bug.

 >Of course, falls back to my whole
 >"should use an external editor in the first place" kick.

Ah, seems I touched a nerve ;-)

 >Already the editor
 >is annoying you in several ways.  If it were external you'd just continue
 >running the editor you'd always run.

Currently, for mail, I use the inbuilt Eudora one. But 
no, I wouldn't mind using Notepad as an editor, but I 
sure as hell don't want to need to invoke it myself. My mail client should.

 >> I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a 
reason to give up The Bat
 >> (and explore other clients). But apart from my personal likes and dislikes,
 >> I don't think that your argument holds.  Yes, this is a nice feature when
 >> you make a table; but how often do you make a table as compared to you
 >> editing your message and moving up and down through it?

 >See, another fine case for an external editor.

Don't use me for your own war, I'll refuse ;-)
I'd rather that somebody address the overkill issue.

 >> I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle.
 >> And it _is_ non-standard.

 >Tell me, what /is/ standard in editors?  :)

To not undo your CR and TAB? _That_ is what YTB is 
currently doing. I get kicked back to the previous 
line. I find that unacceptable.

 >Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
 >features of an editor.

For advanced eatures: granted. But I wouldn't call 
allowing   advanced.

 >> That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a national habit. And I am
 >> not US or Canadian. To people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to my
 >> peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A tab is the marker for a
 >> paragraph, a blank line the marker for a new idea.

 >On paper, yes.  In electronic mail, no.

Says you. Besides, national habits and styles 
notwithstanding, who is my mail client to tell me what 
_my_ mails should look like?

 >> Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not trying to piss you off.
 >> But I _am_ desperate for a mail client that has lots of features and can be
 >> fine-tuned to a huge degree.

 >BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?)

She. Pic at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/images/write.html

 >says he is
 >looking for an email client which is tunable yet all 
his complaints, thus far,
 >have been with the /editor/?

Actually, this rephrasal fits me to a T. Thank you. 
There are quite some reasons why I like TB. The 
interface, threading, good filtering, nice 
personalised templates (so WTF can't I personalise my 
layout and my editor?), nice bonus thrown in (cookies 
allowing for a rotating .sig) and the one thing that I 
dislike is how I am forced to COMPOSE a mail.

 >> The reasons? I get heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and
 >> auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors (so they should be easy
 >> to correct and my cursor should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10
 >> hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is becoming and I dislike
 >> the road that they are taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years.
 >> Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing and less new (stupid)
 >> features.

 >Let me ask you a simple question.  If you could replace the editor with
 >something else, go out to an external editor so you could choose the editor
 >you wanted to use (personally, I'd use VIM but most people here don't want to
 >deal with a VI clone with tons of added features) would you take that route
 >and keep TB?

Yes. Notepad will do. I dont want fancy stuff. I just 
want to be able to set my line length, my tabs, use 
CR's at will, have Ctrl-Z and that is basically it. I 
don't want another word porcessor. I have one. In my 
mail I want a simple text editor, and I won't mind it 
at all if I can use the plain text editors that I already have,

- K -

--
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said
Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'"
   - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

-- 
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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Mark R Harding]

A.,

Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000...

ACM> I personally do like the free caret interface myself. Also, for me,
ACM> TB!'s editor took some time to get accustomed to. It was a period of
ACM> adjustment and giving and taking. The end result has been that the
ACM> shortcomings for me do not exceed the good points. If TB! were to
ACM> support an external editor, I would still use this one.

I would agree with this myself.  I took a while to learn the
differences between the Windows standard editor functionality and
TB!'s functionality but the free caret interface is something I find I
take advantage of regularly simply because it allows me to easily lay
out my text in a clearer and more 'creative' way.

What does perplex me still is how exactly the tab key works.  My usual
experience from both Windows and Unix editors is that the tab key
indents the cursor position (either by a control-character or by
inserting extra white space as required) to the next 'tab-stop' which
is normally defined as a regular series of positions along the text
line - say ever 4,8,16 or however many characters.

In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random.
Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will jump
the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line leaving a
gap of about 60% page width.  If anyone here has the wisdom or
knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm a perplexed
person waiting for enlightenment... :)

Best wishes,

Mark

-- 
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 Mark R Harding
 The Integrated Systems Group (Vision)
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 The University of Edinburgh, King's Buildings, Mayfield Road
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 18:38:08 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

SL> That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.

The origin of this behaviour that is present in most Windows based
editors that may have reason to use is pretty much besides the point.
The reality is that if you are developing an application for Windows
users then you are faced with this unfortunate fact and that is that
most are accustomed to a certain behaviour or functionality.

SL> There is a big difference. AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what
SL> keystrokes do, not editor behavior. There is a difference.

I realize this. I see that I used the word 'Standard' rather loosely.
:-)

>> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such.

SL> Free caret I considered advanced.

Simple text editing is not advanced use. Notepad and virtually all
windows based editors will behave exactly the way she desires. :-) If
they offer a free caret interface, the four I've had opportunity to use
had the free caret interface toggled off by default. If this is the
case, then the editor cursor behaviour she desires may, in a sense, be
considered standard behaviour. Nuh? :-)

SL> Again, it is not a standard. That is what I said. There is no
SL> standard and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as
SL> one since it isn't published and can change on a whim.

Sure. I agree but that doesn't negate anything I'm trying to get across
to you.

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:15:58PM -0500, A . Curtis Martin wrote:
> This is another thing that I have been indicating to you. In windows,
> the basic behaviour of most editors is really standard. This is why
> TB!'s editor is a real 'culture shocker' for those who are used to using
> different editors for various applications.

That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard.  There is a big
difference.  AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what keystrokes do, not editor
behavior.  There is a difference.  

> She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such. 

Free caret I considered advanced.

> She has been complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and
> behaviour.  Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is
> pretty standard.

Again, it is not a standard.  That is what I said.  There is no standard
and I do not the take the "Microsoft is right" standard as one since it isn't
published and can change on a whim.

-- 
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

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Hash: SHA1

On Sun, 17 Sep 2000 02:56:33 +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:

KS> Jurek answered that one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
KS> fucked up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.
^^

Since this is an international group with people of different cultures
subscribed; attitudes toward profanity may very well be mixed with some
taking offense and others not. To maintain as tranquil and as peaceful
an atmosphere as possible on this list, we have decided to 'outlaw' the
use of profanity here.


>> I  don't.  It  will  make  my  plain  text  justified  paragraphs look
>> absolutely  terrible.

KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed
KS> fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

I have no personal problems with your query. But with respect to
variable width fonts, it can really create problems with formatting of
the sender not being properly appreciated by the recipient. Variable
width fonts do look better but their use is sender centric so to speak.
What I mean is that the sender admires their message format but the
recipient fails to see what there is to admire because they are using a
different font.

Take for instance. As seen above, I underlined one of your words. If I
had used a variable width font, it really wouldn't make sense doing it
because you wouldn't see it as such at your end.

Copy and paste the text to an editor that supports variable width fonts
and look at it with various variable width fonts to see what I'm getting
at.

I agree that it's a pity that fixed width fonts are generally ugly but
they are better to use for plain text based correspondences. I have
found happiness with 'Lucida Sans Typ' at size 10 using large fonts at a
1600x1200 resolution. I never really felt happy with look until now so
I know what you mean. :-)

- --
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Karin,

On 17 September 2000 at 02:56:33 GMT +0200 (which was 01:56 where I
live) Karin Spaink wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

>> in  plain  text, a paragraph needs a clear line to be clearly at an
>> end.

KS> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences
KS> here.

No  we're not. These are *technical* issues regarding how the *editor*
can distinguish the next *line* from the next *paragraph*.

KS> In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

Maybe not, but in a plain text editor which offer paragraph formatting
you *have* to.

KS> Jurek  answered  that  one. It's old, imported mail. Something got
KS> ** up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok.
^^
Sorry  Karin  but  we have *very* strict obscenity rules on this list.
Please do not use language like this here.

KS> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the
KS> fixed fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret?

Fixed  font  provides  exact  WYSIWYG  formatting and free caret helps
(most)  or  hinders  (some)  to  format  at will. Something else needs
explaining here: unused space is auto-stripped from the ends of lines.

>> You  can  filter your mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide
>> you with a virtual folder full of *all* of your new mail regardless
>> of  which  folder  it  may have been filtered to. I, for one, would
>> *not*  want  the  current  folder focus to move just because I have
>> more new mail.

KS> 
KS> 

I  keep my ticker DSR (down-stage right) about 1.5" across. It doesn't
impinge too much and lets me at my new mail *real* quick. Ctrl-Shift-T
is  the toggle. Perhaps you can enable/disable it as your interface to
your new mail.

KS> I don't want to have each and every header... I just would love to
KS> have a general overview. "The Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6
KS> new. etc...

The  ticker  is  not what counts - it's the virtual folder it lets you
into.

KS> Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0

You're doing fine. You're suffering from withdrawal and culture shock.
I feel your pain.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY> ]

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:35:12 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:


SL> This is free caret mode. There is no way to turn it off and no, it
SL> isn't a bug. I'm sure at least half a dozen people have answered
SL> stating that it isn't a bug, that it cannot be turned off and then
SL> have proceeded to tell you how glorious and wonderful it is. Quite
SL> frankly I wish it could be turned off two because I find it
SL> annoying. However, since the majority of the people are wiffing
SL> white out on this matter the authors don't appear inclined to do
SL> anything to make the editor behave in a sane manner.

I'll add my 2 cents here. :-)

I personally do like the free caret interface myself. Also, for me,
TB!'s editor took some time to get accustomed to. It was a period of
adjustment and giving and taking. The end result has been that the
shortcomings for me do not exceed the good points. If TB! were to
support an external editor, I would still use this one.

Be that as it may, I strongly disagree with the free caret interface not
being made optional. If the developers intent was to implement an editor
that does basic things in a non-standard fashion they should either make
these non standard behaviours optional or implement the facility to use
an optional/external editor seamlessly.

It would seem that many potential users have been turned off by the
editor and this is a really unfortunate thing because it's really
unnecessary. Editing is one of the core parts of e-mail management and
the user should be able to exercise some flexibility and control.

- --
A. Curtis Martin..
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Nick Andriash]

On September 16, 2000, at 5:56:33 PM, Karin Spaink Wrote:

> I don't want to have each and every header... I
> just would love to have a general overview. "The
> Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc...

That feature is one I truly enjoy with TB!... one quick look at my Folder
Tree, and I can see *exactly* how many new messages (unread) I've
received, and which Folder they reside in.

Karin, in View/Split Mode, what do you have selected? I chose Full-height
Account Tree, and it gives me the view you request.


Nick


N.J. Andriash [ TB! v1.46 Beta 6 | PGP 6.5.8 | Win 98 v4.10 ]
Vancouver, B.C. Canada  |  PGP Key ID:  0x7BA3FDCE
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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[A . Curtis Martin]

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On Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:47:59 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

SL> TB! loves to count replies for some reason. You can turn that off in
SL> the templates. The exact macro eludes me at the moment. Again, on
SL> Linux, not Windows.

That's %SINGLERE


SL> See, another fine case for an external editor. I never, EVER
SL> understood why Windows clients insisted on including internal
SL> editors on everything under the sun. Complete waste of time.

On editor support specifically, I have no problem with that. The OS
comes with a number of potential editors as is. The user could start
with that and then use another when it's


The modular approach in general is an advanced user approach to
computing. I love it personally. However, for novices and for those
users who have no real interest in becoming advanced users, there's a
definite need and market for the monolithic application.

SL> We've been over this Allie, you're not convincing me because, as I
SL> said, once the user learns one editor they are /done/ learning
SL> editors. Here they never stop having to learn new editors and that
SL> wastes time.

You may be misunderstanding me all along. What I said above is all that
I have been saying. Is there anything there that you disagree with?

>> I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle.
>> And it _is_ non-standard.

SL> Tell me, what /is/ standard in editors?  :)

This is another thing that I have been indicating to you. In windows,
the basic behaviour of most editors is really standard. This is why
TB!'s editor is a real 'culture shocker' for those who are used to using
different editors for various applications.

SL> Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
SL> features of an editor.

She hasn't really touched on any advanced features as such. She has been
complaining about basic cursor movements and responses and behaviour.
Trying to type paragraphs etc. For windows, cursor behaviour is pretty
standard.

SL> BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?) says he is
SL> looking for an email client which is tunable yet all his complaints, thus far,
SL> have been with the /editor/?

I think he is a she. :-)

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:56:33AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with.  And as I told Jurek: it
> feels as if somebdy is hammering it in. You _will_ have fixed fomts and even
> if you find your way around them. we will still make your message editor act
> asd if it were fixed font!

Trust us, it is the only way email should be.

> I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences here. In my
> country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either.

Right, it is cultural.  It is the online culture to separate paragraphs
with a CR.  You're online, time to do as the romans do.

> There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed fomt as
> the only alternative _and_ free caret?

No idea on the free caret but the fixed font is simple.  If everyone has
variable width font then nothing comes out to look anywhere remotely as it
should.  The only sane solution is to use a fixed-width font so what you see
will closely approximate what they will see.  Again, refer to my signature as
an example.

> I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over everything else -- plus, i
> still need to go to my inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and...

Feh, filter report is nasty anyway.  I don't want this stupid window
popping up every minute telling me I have new mail.  Yes, I check every minute
and during the day, on a busy day, I can get more than 1 mail a minute across
my accounts.  The fact that the folder list has hightlights and numbers of new
mail in each folder already tells me that I have new mail and where it is.
Which is also why having new mail trigger going into the inbox is foolish.  Of
the 3-600 messages a day I get on average maybe 5 in each account gets to the
inbox.

If you want it to bouce to your inbox chances are you're not filtering and
are already sitting in your inbox.  If you are filtering then your mail isn't
going to the inbox and, again, there is no need for it.

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

On 17-09-2000 at 01:27, Marck D. Pearlstone kindly wrote:
> Hi Karin,


KS>> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
KS>> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
KS>> goes down but stays in the same column

> Correct.  This  is  not  a bug. This is TB's (love it or hate .. and I
> personally  love it) "virtual space". Place the cursor anywhere on the
> page,  start  typing and it will stick. It is, IMHO, the right way for
> fixed  pitch  WYSIWYG plain text editing to work.

Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with.
And as I told Jurek: it feels as if somebdy is
hammering it in. You _will_ have fixed fomts and
even if you find your way around them. we will
still make your message editor act asd if it were
fixed font!

>  they have, so far, been unable to persuade the
>  authors to make it optional.

Pity ;-)

KS>> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
KS>> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
KS>> parapraph to a section. Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
KS>> indent, and continue: (example: this). See? The Bat's editor
KS>> automatically purges the carriage return and moves the "this"
KS>> (see above) back to the end of the previous line. Or look at my
KS>> garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted
KS>> conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line.

> Then  turn  off  auto-format.  Also,  you  may have to encompass a new
> concept:  in  plain text, a paragraph needs a clear line to be clearly
> at an end.

I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural
differences here. In my country, you don't. And in
my book, you don't either.

> I  don't  indent my paragraph starts so I leave
> auto-format on. Others do indent and have to
> have it off for that purpose.

Ok, so it's an either/or thing.

[cookie won't break]

> Introduce  a  '\n'  (no  quotes)  sequence within the long line at the
> point at which you want it break.

I'll try. Wait Yeah !! Thanks!

KS>> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I
KS>> have Options --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail
KS>> as plain text, tags included.

> Hang-on  ...  with  tags?  You mean like  ... ? Then that
> doesn't even conform to true HTML standard. You might be talking about
> RTF  (Rich Text Format) mail, which isn't HTML standard and might show
> as  you  describe.  HTML mail usually consists of a plain text message
> with an attachment containing the HTML version of it.

Jurek answered that one. It's old, imported mail.
Something got fucked up in the conversion,. New
mail looks ok.

KS>> 5. When will the developpers add proportional
KS>> fonts? I _hate_ proportional.

> I  don't.  It  will  make  my  plain  text  justified  paragraphs look
> absolutely  terrible.

There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why
both have the fixed fomt as the only alternative
_and_ free caret?

KS>> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on
KS>> my Inbox when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

> Suggestion:  lose  that habit and turn on the ticker (tm) ;-).

I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over
everything else -- plus, i still need to go to my
inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and...


Will you please be kind to this silly Eudora
junkie who's trying to kick her habit? ;-)

>You can  filter  your  mail on receipt and use
>the ticker to provide you with a  virtual  folder
>full  of  *all*  of your new mail regardless of
>which  folder  it may have been filtered to. I,
>for one, would *not* want the  current folder
>focus to move just because I have more new mail.




I don't want to have each and every header... I
just would love to have a general overview. "The
Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc...


KS>> For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure I'll have more
KS>> questions while I proceed to explore The Bat.

> TB  is  a  *very* different animal. Enjoy your explorations. There's a
> lot under the bonnet and, usually, pretty good reasons for the quirks.

Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave
exploring... :-0



- K -

-- 


 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different 
things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's 
all.'%0D%0A  -- Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass



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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:36:13AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> 1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the Subject line and suddenly
> gets "Re[2]: etc" instead of your standard "Re: etc"?

TB! loves to count replies for some reason.  You can turn that off in the
templates.  The exact macro eludes me at the moment.  Again, on Linux, not
Windows.

> 2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What I added (new CR's) can be
> undone, but what I inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought back.

That always annoyed me.  Call it a bug.  Of course, falls back to my whole
"should use an external editor in the first place" kick.  Already the editor
is annoying you in several ways.  If it were external you'd just continue
running the editor you'd always run.

> I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a reason to give up The Bat
> (and explore other clients). But apart from my personal likes and dislikes,
> I don't think that your argument holds.  Yes, this is a nice feature when
> you make a table; but how often do you make a table as compared to you
> editing your message and moving up and down through it?

See, another fine case for an external editor.  I never, EVER understood
why Windows clients insisted on including internal editors on everything under
the sun.  Complete waste of time.  We've been over this Allie, you're not
convincing me because, as I said, once the user learns one editor they are
/done/ learning editors.  Here they never stop having to learn new editors and
that wastes time.

> I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle.
> And it _is_ non-standard.

Tell me, what /is/ standard in editors?  :)

Exactly, there isn't a standard, at least not for the more advanced
features of an editor.  I only know the CUA defines keystrokes for certain
behaviors, nothing more.

> That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a national habit. And I am
> not US or Canadian. To people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to my
> peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A tab is the marker for a
> paragraph, a blank line the marker for a new idea.

On paper, yes.  In electronic mail, no.

> Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not trying to piss you off.
> But I _am_ desperate for a mail client that has lots of features and can be
> fine-tuned to a huge degree. 

BIG HINT TO AUTHORS AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE: Notice here he(?) says he is
looking for an email client which is tunable yet all his complaints, thus far,
have been with the /editor/?  

> The reasons? I get heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and
> auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors (so they should be easy
> to correct and my cursor should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10
> hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is becoming and I dislike
> the road that they are taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years.
> Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing and less new (stupid)
> features.

Let me ask you a simple question.  If you could replace the editor with
something else, go out to an external editor so you could choose the editor
you wanted to use (personally, I'd use VIM but most people here don't want to
deal with a VI clone with tons of added features) would you take that route
and keep TB?
 
-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Steve Lamb]

On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:29:40AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote:
> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are editing your
> mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it goes down but stays in
> the same column (read: horizontal axis) and doesn't go to the beginning of
> the line or the last words in it

[SNIP]

This is free caret mode.  There is no way to turn it off and no, it isn't
a bug.  I'm sure at least half a dozen people have answered stating that it
isn't a bug, that it cannot be turned off and then have proceeded to tell you
how glorious and wonderful it is.  Quite frankly I wish it could be turned off
two because I find it annoying.  However, since the majority of the people are
wiffing white out on this matter the authors don't appear inclined to do
anything to make the editor behave in a sane manner.

OTOH, I'm also the one who wiffs markers and wants /no/ editor in the
email client at all because everyone's preferences on the perfect editor are
different.  With no editor the authors don't have to deal with it.  They just
toss the email out to whatever editor the user decides which, in theory, will
behave exactly as they want since they get to choose it.

What are you wiffing?  :)

> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I need it

Paragraphs are generally separated by a CR.  So this next line is not part
of a new paragraph although this next one is.

New paragraph.  Of course, I am writing this in vim on Linux launched from
mutt.  IE, an external editor from my mail client which, on this reading,
isn't TB!.  :)

> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows for rotating signatures.

GAAAHHH, Fido-Net flashbacks!!  The horror, the horror!

> The help file is however not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
> file. After some experimenting, I discovered that each entry should have a
> line of its own, no line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.  But
> the cookies show up in one unbroken line whenever I start composing an
> e-mail or hit reply.  How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

\n where you want a newline.

> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I have Options
> --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail as plain text, tags
> included. There is no informationto be found in the FAQ nor in the help
> file. Actually, HTML is not mentioned in the help file at all -- except in
> the description of the new features of the update to The Bat.

Something tells me that this is because the HTML-Mail you're getting sent
is being MIME encapsulated.  I /think/ TB! does the sane thing and at least
require the HTML to be in a MIME attachment so when people are discussion HTML
in email but don't want it displayed (insane idea to the general public, I
know) they can see what is going on.  :)

> 5. When will the developpers add proportional fonts? I _hate_ proportional.
> Suddenly my mail looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround in the FAQ, and I
> might try it, but I like Arial best).

Hopefully never.  You'll note my signature would look ugly in proportional
fonts.  Also mail looks REALLY nasty in proportional fonts.  Something about
the 78 character max wrap and the lines looking really jaggy when crammed into
proportional.  For example, these two lines aren't the same width in
proportional fonts.

1
W
 
> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the Tools menu? As of now, one
> can only find it in the Icon toolbar.

...   Good question.  I'll go flog them for an answer.

> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on my Inbox
> when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

Why?  90% of my new mail doesn't arrive in my inbox.  It arrives in the
folders /outside/ my inbox.  Filters, they are your friends.
 
-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

Thanks for the replies I have been getting so for.
They are helpful and allow me to understand both
the progam an dthe programmer's goals more
clearly, and thus help me to make up my mind.

First of all, new questions:

1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the
Subject line and suddenly gets "Re[2]: etc"
instead of your standard "Re: etc"?


2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What
I added (new CR's) can be undone, but what I
inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought
back.


On 17-09-2000 at 01:03, Januk Aggarwal kindly wrote:
> Karin Spaink typed:

>> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
>> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
>> goes down but stays in the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
>> doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the last words in it,

> Yes, this is because TB supports a free caret interface.  With this
> interface, you can use arrow keys or the mouse to put your cursor
> anywhere and start typing.  This really helps when you're doing tables
> or lists.

I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a
reason to give up The Bat (and explore other
clients). But apart from my personal likes and
dislikes, I don't think that your argument holds.
Yes, this is a nice feature when you make a table;
but how often do you make a table as compared to
you editing your message and moving up and down
through it?

It would be nice as a bonus, not as an
unturnoffable_standard. And if this indeed one of
The Bat's prime focusses, I will reconsider my
options.

>> as it should (since the space after the last
>> words is empty and not filled with trailing
>> spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that can
>> be turned off?

> It's not a bug and it can not be turned off.  If
> you get used to > hitting the home and end keys,
> I think you'll find it pretty convenient.

I am growing more used to it, but I find all the
extra keystrokes a hassle. And it _is_
non-standard.

>> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I
>> want to, I like it, I need it because I rewrite
>> a lot - I can't seem to add a new parapraph to
>> a section.

> New paragraphs need a blank line between them.  This makes your
> message more readable.

That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a
national habit. And I am not US or Canadian. To
people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to
my peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A
tab is the marker for a paragraph, a blank line
the marker for a new idea.

> Also this is necessary due to the way TB  >
handles text editing.  TB is a WYSIWYG text
editor.  What this means > is the end of a line
within a paragraph is marked by the same > codes
as any other end of line.

See why this auto-formatting sucks? I inadvertedly
deleted a chevron that preceded your reply, and
since Ctrl-Z doesn't bring it back, TB's explicit
ignoring of a CR prevents me from reformatting
your quote. I can't put it back in order.

>> I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted conversation on a
>> new line; only when I add a blank line.

> This is as it should be given TB's implementation.

Ok. I consider this a serious flaw, one that by
itself could be enough to look elsewhere.

> See above for
> details.  To work around  this, you might want to get familiar with the
>  shortcut.  This toggles the auto-format feature on
> and off.

Yes, it does! Thanks for that tip, it is highly
valued, and have been using this trick in the rest
of the mail. 'Cept when I reformatted the above,
after having implemented your tip (I had to
reformat, because I lost your chevrons again) each
and every CR just before one of the origial
chevrons, gave me one extra -- which I then had to
delete.

Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not
trying to piss you off. But I _am_ desperate for a
mail client that has lots of features and can be
fine-tuned to a huge degree. The reasons? I get
heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and
auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors
(so they should be easy to correct and my cursor
should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10
hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is
becoming and I dislike the road that they are
taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years.
Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing
and less new (stupid) features.


> With the auto format feature on, you can't do
> the following.

>1. Answer e-mail
>2.  Show off free caret power
>3. Send mail
>4. Enjoy.

Ah, but you can... You're referring to tables,
right? When you have an unpoportional font, it's
so easy. Just _type_ a few spaces

>> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows
>> for rotating signatures. The help file is however
>> not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
>> file. After some experimenting, I discovered that
>> each entry should have a line of its own, no
>> line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.
>> But the cookies show up in one unbroken l

Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Marck D. Pearlstone]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi Karin,

On 16 September 2000 at 00:29:40 GMT +0200 (which was 23:29 where I
live) Karin Spaink wrote and made these points on the subject
of "New user, lotsa questions":

KS> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
KS> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
KS> goes down but stays in the same column

Correct.  This  is  not  a bug. This is TB's (love it or hate .. and I
personally  love it) "virtual space". Place the cursor anywhere on the
page,  start  typing and it will stick. It is, IMHO, the right way for
fixed  pitch  WYSIWYG plain text editing to work. There are others who
disagree about this but they have, so far, been unable to persuade the
authors to make it optional.

KS> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
KS> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
KS> parapraph to a section. Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
KS> indent, and continue: (example: this). See? The Bat's editor
KS> automatically purges the carriage return and moves the "this"
KS> (see above) back to the end of the previous line. Or look at my
KS> garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted
KS> conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line.

Then  turn  off  auto-format.  Also,  you  may have to encompass a new
concept:  in  plain text, a paragraph needs a clear line to be clearly
at an end.

This is a new paragraph.

I  don't  indent my paragraph starts so I leave auto-format on. Others
do indent and have to have it off for that purpose.

KS> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows for rotating
KS> signatures. The help file is however not too helpful as to the
KS> format of the cookie file. After some experimenting, I discovered
KS> that each entry should have a line of its own, no line-breaks, and
KS> no empty lines between entries. But the cookies show up in one
KS> unbroken line whenever I start composing an e-mail or hit reply.
KS> How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

Introduce  a  '\n'  (no  quotes)  sequence within the long line at the
point at which you want it break.

KS> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I
KS> have Options --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail
KS> as plain text, tags included.

Hang-on  ...  with  tags?  You mean like  ... ? Then that
doesn't even conform to true HTML standard. You might be talking about
RTF  (Rich Text Format) mail, which isn't HTML standard and might show
as  you  describe.  HTML mail usually consists of a plain text message
with an attachment containing the HTML version of it.

KS> 5. When will the developpers add proportional fonts? I _hate_
KS> proportional. Suddenly my mail looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the
KS> workaround in the FAQ, and I might try it, but I like Arial best).

I  don't.  It  will  make  my  plain  text  justified  paragraphs look
absolutely  terrible.  It  will  make  columnar  tabulated information
completely  illegible.  There  are other reasons for using fixed pitch
font  besides these. There are a number of fixed width fonts that look
fine and are perfectly livable - Andale Mono is what I enjoy.

KS> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the Tools menu? As of
KS> now, one can only find it in the Icon toolbar.

Tools -- Search? It's there.

KS> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on
KS> my Inbox when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

Suggestion:  lose  that habit and turn on the ticker (tm) ;-). You can
filter  your  mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide you with a
virtual  folder  full  of  *all*  of your new mail regardless of which
folder  it may have been filtered to. I, for one, would *not* want the
current folder focus to move just because I have more new mail.

KS> For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure I'll have more
KS> questions while I proceed to explore The Bat.

TB  is  a  *very* different animal. Enjoy your explorations. There's a
lot under the bonnet and, usually, pretty good reasons for the quirks.

- --
Cheers,
.\\arck
 
[Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA  ]
[ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com  ]
[ PGP Key: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY> ]

 Kids Stuff:
Water freezes at 32 degrees and boils at 212
degrees.  There are 180 degrees between freezing
and boiling because there are 180 degrees between
north and south.
 
 TB! v1.46c S/N 14F4B4B

Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Karin Spaink,

On Sunday, September 17, 2000 at 12:29:40 AM you wrote:


> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
> goes down but stays in the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
> doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the last words in it, as
> it should (since the space after the last words is empty and not
> filled with trailing spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that can
> be turned off?

There's  been a lot of discussion about this over time, and yes it's a
feature,  but  no,  it  can't be turned off now. It's promised for V2,
IIRC.

> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
> parapraph to a section.Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
> indent, and continue: (example: this). See? The Bat's editor
> automatically purges the carriage return and moves the "this"
> (see above) back to the end of the previous line.

Lots of discussion here, too. The current workaround suggested by some
is to turn auto-format/wrap functions on and off while typing using
the keyboard shortcuts. The current function works on the assumption
that a new paragraph is started after an empty line.

> Or look at my garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on a new bit of
> the quoted conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line.

As  long as you don't edit your .sig manually, it shouldn't be touched
by the formatting functions.

> 3. How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

Insert "\n" (without the quotes) in the places where it should wrap.

> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I have
> Options --> HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail as
> plain text, tags included. There is no informationto be found in the
> FAQ nor in the help file. Actually, HTML is not mentioned in the
> help file at all -- except in the description of the new features of
> the update to The Bat.

Has always worked for me in the rare instances I've used it ;)

> 5. When will the developpers add proportional fonts? I _hate_
> proportional. Suddenly my mail looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround
> in the FAQ, and I might try it, but I like Arial best).

I still hope never. But probably in V2, IIRC.

> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the Tools menu? As of
> now, one can only find it in the Icon toolbar.

It's in Tools/Search, isn't it?

> 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on my
> Inbox when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)

It won't, AFAIK.

> For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure I'll have more
> questions while I proceed to explore The Bat.

Just keep going ;-)

Oliver Sturm

-- 
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my disk?
-- 
Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Key ID: 71D86996
Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996

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Re: New user, lotsa questions

[Januk Aggarwal]

Hello Karin,


On  Saturday, September 16, 2000  at  00:29:40 GMT +0200 (which was 3:29 PM
where I live) witnesses say Karin Spaink typed:

> I decided to try The Bat for a while.

Welcome.

> It looks very much like the mail client I might switch to, but after
> fiddling with it for a while - and checking the FAQ and the help
> files - I still have a couple of questions.

We'll take a crack at them.  This is the place to ask.

> 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are
> editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it
> goes down but stays in the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
> doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the last words in it,

Yes, this is because TB supports a free caret interface.  With this
interface, you can use arrow keys or the mouse to put your cursor
anywhere and start typing.  This really helps when you're doing tables
or lists.  I might give an example later in this message, we'll see.

> as it should (since the space after the last words is empty and not
> filled with trailing spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that can
> be turned off?

It's not a bug and it can not be turned off.  If you get used to
hitting the home and end keys, I think you'll find it pretty
convenient.  I'm at the point where editors that *don't* support free
caret interfaces are really annoying.

> 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I
> need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new
> parapraph to a section.

New paragraphs need a blank line between them.  This makes your
message more readable.  Also this is necessary due to the way TB
handles text editing.  TB is a WYSIWYG text editor.  What this means
is the end of a line within a paragraph is marked by the same
codes as any other end of line.  So the auto-format tool looks for two
end of line markings in a row to denote a new paragraph.

> I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted conversation on a
> new line; only when I add a blank line.

This is as it should be given TB's implementation.  See above for
details.  To work around this, you might want to get familiar with the
 shortcut.  This toggles the auto-format feature on
and off.  I only turn on the auto-format feature when I'm going back
to rework a paragraph.  But if I want to make a list, then I turn it
off.  With the auto format feature on, you can't do the following.

   1. Answer e-mail
   2.  Show off free caret power
   3. Send mail
   4. Enjoy.

> 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows
> for rotating signatures. The help file is however
> not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
> file. After some experimenting, I discovered that
> each entry should have a line of its own, no
> line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.
> But the cookies show up in one unbroken line
> whenever I start composing an e-mail or hit reply.
> How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?

In an individual cookie, you can tell TB to insert a line break by
using '\n'.  If you put the following in your cookie file:

Personal Plan:\n To avoid lucidity, clarity and sanity at all costs.

It would be inserted as:

Personal Plan:
 To avoid lucidity, clarity and sanity at all costs.


> 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto
> view" and while I have Options --> HTML auto view
> on, I get to see all the html-mail as plain text,
> tags included.

Is this mail that you imported from Eudora?  I think Eudora does some
weird things to HTML mail so that it can not be imported correctly.
If you get new HTML mail, it should be presented correctly.  Note that
TB will not go out onto the net to get image files for you.  This is a
web browser's job, and so TB will only display images that are
sent along with the message.  As a result, you may prefer to turn off
HTML auto-view.  Then when you get HTML mail, just double click on the
icon in the message view pane.  You'll be sent to your default browser
to view the HTML properly.

> 5. When will the developpers add proportional
> fonts? I _hate_ proportional. Suddenly my mail
> looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround in the FAQ,
> and I might try it, but I like Arial best).

We're just going over this in another thread.  From A. Curtis Martin's
message from Sat, 16 Sep 2000 06:22:51 -0500,

Subject: Re: Reasons why html mail shouldn't be used

ACM>  Note however, that TB!'s editor cannot use a variable width font
ACM> even if you force it to via the registry hack. Everything looks like
ACM> gibberish. I'm quite sure that it has to do with the free caret
ACM> interface. You'll notice that with the editor, you may place your cursor
ACM> anywhere in the editor window and start typing. The character positions
ACM> seem to be already mapped out in a grid type fashion. A fixed width font
ACM> makes this possible.


> 6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the
> Tools menu? As of now, one can only find it in the
> Icon toolbar.

 It is, Tools ->

New user, lotsa questions

[Karin Spaink]

Since  I  don't  like  the way that my fave e-mail
program  Eudora  is  heading, I decided to try The
Bat  for a while. It looks very much like the mail
client  I might switch to, but after fiddling with
it for a while - and checking the FAQ and the help
files  - I still have a couple of questions.

I hope that more experienced users can help me.


1. If you move your cursor down in the window in
which you are editing your mail (e.g. move it down
to the next empty line), it goes down but stays in
the same column (read: horizontal axis) and
doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the
last words in it, as it should (since the space
after the last words is empty and not filled with
trailing spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that
can be turned off? I find this very annoying,
especially since I tend to edit my messages a
_lot_ while composing them, and afterwards my
cursor is never where I expect it to be. Take
Word, Eudora or Agent: they all behave according
to standard, but The Bat doesn't. I expect my
cursor to move to the beginning of a line when
there are no spaces in that line.


2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want
to, I like it, I need it because I rewrite a lot -
I can't seem to add a new parapraph to a
section.Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for
indent, and continue: (example: this).
See? The Bat's editor automatically purges the
carriage return and moves the "this" (see
above) back to the end of the previous line. Or
look at my garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on
a new bit of the quoted conversation on a new
line; only when I add a blank line.


3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows
for rotating signatures. The help file is however
not too helpful as to the format of the cookie
file. After some experimenting, I discovered that
each entry should have a line of its own, no
line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries.
But the cookies show up in one unbroken line
whenever I start composing an e-mail or hit reply.
How do you make your cookie-entries wrap?


4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto
view" and while I have Options --> HTML auto view
on, I get to see all the html-mail as plain text,
tags included. There is no informationto be found
in the FAQ nor in the help file. Actually, HTML is
not mentioned in the help file at all -- except in
the description of the new features of the update
to The Bat.


5. When will the developpers add proportional
fonts? I _hate_ proportional. Suddenly my mail
looks ugly.(Yes, I saw the workaround in the FAQ,
and I might try it, but I like Arial best).


6. Why isn't the "Find" utility listed under the
Tools menu? As of now, one can only find it in the
Icon toolbar.


7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to
automatically focus on my Inbox when new mail has
arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-)


For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure
I'll have more questions while I proceed to
explore The Bat.


- K -

-- 

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can
make words mean so many different things.' 'The
question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be
master - that's all.   -- Lewis Carroll: Through
the Looking-Glass



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