Re: has struts reached the saturation
i have had brief info on struts-java-jsp. i want to make simple application having features of - struts-java(beans, forms etc) -jsp-tags - CREATE-UPDATE/EDIT-DELETE-SEARCH - database like mysql at backend - using all types of fields - char, varchar, numeric, logic, date, memo can some send me references to some examples with above features thanks Dhiraj
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
If you leave out the substance of a conversation to say something that is so dark that no one can figure out what it means, then you have truly, truly reached the apex of the natural curve to your career, Newton. Congratulations. Would you care to say something about the issues Jonathan has raised? If not, on this thread I am done with you and want to thank you for providing an example of those who support the coding that has taken place the last few years on Struts. The committers can be proud to have you as their spokesperson. On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dakota Jack wrote: > > Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl. > > Ooo, guess I'd better watch my back then, huh. > > > Have you ever said anything worth reading? > > > > I'll assume that's rhetorical, since only others could answer that. > > Dave > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Dakota Jack wrote: > Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl. Ooo, guess I'd better watch my back then, huh. > Have you ever said anything worth reading? > I'll assume that's rhetorical, since only others could answer that. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
This is on topic? What about the substantive question, Craig, that you quizzically said was "WILDLY" off topic. Do you even care to appear consistent? On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey? > > > You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens. > > By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in > Freemarker. > > Larry > > > Craig > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
So Craig now has committer rights on who is a first class citizen? Quite frankly, I thought Craig would at least defend the people he put in place and the people who tore down the house with some excuses other than "we had to make bad code because we are genius's". But, rather than do that, he continues to act as if he is lead something. As far as I am concerned, Craig is just another guy in the lineup. On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey? > > > You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens. > > By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in > Freemarker. > > Larry > > > Craig > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Don't complain about the content of the list again, Mitchell. You don't have the fortitude to respond to questiona about the failure of Struts even though you are an active committer and you complain about this thread, and yet, like most of the complainers about the thread, you take it down this path. Why not just address the issues? Why not? Why? On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should > > answer. > > It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you. > > > And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your > own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because > this is a public list)... > > > ... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think > you are? You must be one ill-bred little f***. > > I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I > don't have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your > cohorts a f***ing thing. > > If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the > next time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what > you should say: > > "Thank you." > > I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you > look there? I hope I completely humiliated you. > > If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more. > > People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's > first experience of an open source project is something like Struts > full of arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you. > > F*** you, you contemptible little sh**. > > > > Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to / > dev/null. > > Have a wonderful day. > > > -- > James Mitchell > > P.S. "Thank you" > > > > On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote: > > > Emmanouil Batsis wrote: > >> Jonathan Revusky wrote: > >>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in > >>> its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that > >>> the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.) > >> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally] > > > > Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to > > answer this. > > > > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should > > answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring > > Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the > > ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they > > don't want to answer such questions > > > >> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically > >> old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly > >> this is true? > > > > It did not take me long using google to find the following page: > > > > http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts > > > > Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and > > is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that > > the points there are truthful. > > > > In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided > > that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on > > that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that > > has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people > > in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather > > than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > -- > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ > > > > > >> Thanks, > >> Manos > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl. Why don't you offer something worthwhile once in your life. Have you ever said anything worth reading? Please take your giggling and your curtesying elsewhere. And, leave the "little boys" alone. On 3/27/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jonathan Revusky wrote: > > I think it was a very bad idea on his part. > > Of course _you_ do, you foul-mouthed little boy! > > _I_ think it was great :D > > I'm _still_ all a-giggle! > > Dave > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
(picture a mood of mild sadness, at such respected gurus needing to take
to each other with little textual swords, and at my failed attempt at
thinning it down to an ending via a lame Court Jester role ... yet i
will hopefully jest on, tragically awaiting the inevitable end of the
king's patience, finally performing my own litte train wreck alongside
the one that i am jesting for)
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Moose,
>
> Open source software, like every other human endeavor, is political.
> It has politics.
yes
>
> I have engaged here in some forthright political speech about
> open-source software development issues. I did not even initiate the
> discussion. It was already going on.
yes, have watched it from the start, including your join, which i
actually noted in my mail.
>
> You seem to have a very basic misconception. You really seem to think
> that people have to agree with my political views to use FreeMarker or
> any other thing I am involved with.
no, i was aware of the valid disconnection of passion/approval and
logic/inclusion, i was parodying its disuse (trying anyway, not very
well) - to some degree i was alluding to the herd-like nature of
humanity, ie: that tragically some really important decisions are made
for absurd reasons with counter-productive consequences ("cut off your
nose to spite your face"). on the other hand it is perhaps also of note
that large numbers of decisions are made on purely relational bases.
managers don't buy from saleman that they believe have the best product,
they buy from salesmen that they have developed an effective working
relationship with (read: who they *like*).
>
> That is simply not the case. The FreeMarker community is really a
> pretty good community. You can ask questions and make suggestions, and
> we will be as helpful as we can. We always have been. It's not a
> problem. On a technical plane, you can interact with me and the rest
> of the people perfectly well. On a technical plane, if people ask me
> questions here, I will be as helpful as I can.
i imagine so. i havent used it yet (being a relative newbie), though i
respect it from an ignorant distance.
>
> Using FreeMarker is quite straightforward anyway. We have pretty good
> docs. So the vast majority of people who use it have no interaction
> with us. Very likely, except for the minority subscribe to the list or
> happened on the "Who We Are" page they do not even know who I am and
> don't care. They just use the thing. And that's normal.
sounds normalish to me
>
> FreeMarker was chosen as the default presentation technology in
> Webwork 2.2, not because of the political views of any of its
> developers, but for solid technical reasons.
very good
>
> If this community wants to go the route of making technology decisions
> based on personalities and politics rather than the technical
> considerations, they are free to do so.
free. freedom of choice. what a divine moment in history. i wonder
how long it will last? imagine if we lived in a political dictatorship
that actually told us what software to use! yuk. perhaps when the
American Microsoft Party wins the 2060 presidential election, we'll all
be executed for treason. (insert any tyranical political manifestation
of note from the 20th century in place of AMP and you might get a
glimpse ... nazis, taliban, sadam whatsisname, pinochet, ...)
> But this would doom you to technical mediocrity from the start.
no i'm personally doomed to technical mediocrity by my own feeble
incapacities. nothing else rates as a criteria. there's no other
reason so there's no other excuse.
> Other, competing products, that do not operate under these
> constraints, and simply use the best tools for the job, will eat your
> lunch.
nobody touches *my* vegemite sandwiches! actually no-one *wants* to
touch my vegemite sandwiches ...
>
> Moose, it is very sad that you feel such fear, that you feel obliged
> to interact here anonymously, and even then, to do so with such
> trepidation, lest you might offend somebody.
this is a fact. :.( i can't do anything about it. i have a mortgage
and a family. they can't afford me to make a mistake. even doing this
is a risk. smell the fear.
> Wouldn't it be great to live without fear, to just be able to talk, to
> say forthrightly what you think about stuff? Imagine the next time
> some pretentious poo-bah at your job says something that you really
> think is just hot air, you could just say: "Hey, that's bull.
> Here's why." Wouldn't that be great?
yes
>
> Of course, your work environment is not like that. But the open source
> world is like that. Well, I thought it was. Sh*t, maybe I was
> mistaken. :-( But if this is just like the corporate environment and
> we're not getting paid to be here, then what are we doing here? Is
> this just masochism?
no, it's just 1984. if the only people watching these forums were the
forum users then it would be safe to have an open conversation. but
Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Moose, Open source software, like every other human endeavor, is political. It has politics. I have engaged here in some forthright political speech about open-source software development issues. I did not even initiate the discussion. It was already going on. You seem to have a very basic misconception. You really seem to think that people have to agree with my political views to use FreeMarker or any other thing I am involved with. That is simply not the case. The FreeMarker community is really a pretty good community. You can ask questions and make suggestions, and we will be as helpful as we can. We always have been. It's not a problem. On a technical plane, you can interact with me and the rest of the people perfectly well. On a technical plane, if people ask me questions here, I will be as helpful as I can. Using FreeMarker is quite straightforward anyway. We have pretty good docs. So the vast majority of people who use it have no interaction with us. Very likely, except for the minority subscribe to the list or happened on the "Who We Are" page they do not even know who I am and don't care. They just use the thing. And that's normal. FreeMarker was chosen as the default presentation technology in Webwork 2.2, not because of the political views of any of its developers, but for solid technical reasons. If this community wants to go the route of making technology decisions based on personalities and politics rather than the technical considerations, they are free to do so. But this would doom you to technical mediocrity from the start. Other, competing products, that do not operate under these constraints, and simply use the best tools for the job, will eat your lunch. Moose, it is very sad that you feel such fear, that you feel obliged to interact here anonymously, and even then, to do so with such trepidation, lest you might offend somebody. Wouldn't it be great to live without fear, to just be able to talk, to say forthrightly what you think about stuff? Imagine the next time some pretentious poo-bah at your job says something that you really think is just hot air, you could just say: "Hey, that's bull. Here's why." Wouldn't that be great? Of course, your work environment is not like that. But the open source world is like that. Well, I thought it was. Sh*t, maybe I was mistaken. :-( But if this is just like the corporate environment and we're not getting paid to be here, then what are we doing here? Is this just masochism? Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Hey Nony Moose wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: Vinny wrote: Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something made by people like this guy. Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners ...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter. ...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions. Jonathan Revusky lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ (caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.) Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much money by now, I really don't care what people think of me" developers. (I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on your technical skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct" (ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point) :( ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised his *actual* worth to the company. Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90% non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh. Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome"
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Larry Meadors wrote: So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey? Larry, Craig brought up the issue of whether certain content was off-topic for the list, but what about something like your comment here, which simply has no content and there is no attempt for it to have any content. At least in the private message to James, I was telling him something pretty directly. He really made me angry. But this message is just the equivalent of giving somebody the raspberry because you lack the wherewithal to say anything -- political, technical, satirical, or anything. Just nothing! This whole current situation arose from a guy who is on the Struts PMC, BTW, posting a private message on this list! I mean, you just don't do that! Yet I see it already. You're going to twist it into saying that *this* discussion is *my* fault. Are you guys all real people? Or did you all escape off the pages of a comic book or something? You don't quite seem 3-dimensional Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ P.S. Larry, why did Struts development stagnate? Larry On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 3/27/06, Vinny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys? Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it belongs, where stuff gets decided. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey? You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens. By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in Freemarker. Larry Craig
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey? Larry On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 3/27/06, Vinny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys? > > > Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it > belongs, where stuff gets decided. > > Craig > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > Vinny wrote: > >> Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something >> made by people like this guy. > > Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed > technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners > ...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter. > ...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions. > Jonathan Revusky > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ (caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.) Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much money by now, I really don't care what people think of me" developers. (I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on your technical skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct" (ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point) :( ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised his *actual* worth to the company. Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90% non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh. Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome". Perhaps I'll dig it out of the archive and repost it for a glowing moment ... like "It was a nice warm morning in Hiroshima on August 6 and there was the sound of a plane overhead ... I always liked the sound of airplanes flying over and ... ". Won't it be disappointing to see the first technical decision of the WW2 Struts merger be that the default presentation whatever is changed from Freemarker to XXX, purely based on an unworkable inter-team personality confict rather than any tech criteria? And I can't understand why this thread hasn't been slashdotted yet ... "OS Gurus Flay Each Other and Set a New Direction for the Entire Internet, While MS Laughs" from the my-pattern-is-better-than-yours dept Oh, by the way ... what's "disrupting the market" mean? Mourning Moose - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Vinny wrote: Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys? Does Jonathan represent the viewpoint of the WW2 developers that are coming on board? Actually, I'm not a WW2 developer. However, FreeMarker is used pretty centrally in WW2 and FreeMarker currently is largely my fault. Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something made by people like this guy. Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed technical decisions, I'll disclose some more things about myself. I have terrible table manners, you know. I chew with my mouth open. There is this horrendous slurping sound I make when I eat my soup. It empties entire restaurants. People run out of there screaming. Also, I'm a world class belcher and farter. Knowing all this, I don't think anybody in their right mind would want to use any software I wrote. Amazingly, some people still do. But yes, I think it is only fair to disclose the above things, so that people can make the right technical decisions. Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Michael Jouravlev wrote: On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should answer. It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you. And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because this is a public list)... First, why replying in public list? I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part. Then, who said what exactly? Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with: "this is sh** is getting personal now." and ends with: "F*** you, you contemptible little sh**." was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he -- Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Wow... as far as a George Carlin sketch goes, that's grand! "...arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards..." Hehe, I gotta remember that one. I think "toady" makes it special :) Frank James Mitchell wrote: Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should answer. It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you. And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because this is a public list)... ... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think you are? You must be one ill-bred little f***. I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I don't have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your cohorts a f***ing thing. If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the next time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what you should say: "Thank you." I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you look there? I hope I completely humiliated you. If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more. People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's first experience of an open source project is something like Struts full of arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you. F*** you, you contemptible little sh**. Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to /dev/null. Have a wonderful day. -- James Mitchell P.S. "Thank you" On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote: Emmanouil Batsis wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.) [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally] Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to answer this. Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they don't want to answer such questions I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this is true? It did not take me long using google to find the following page: http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that the points there are truthful. In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened. Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Thanks, Manos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
On 3/27/06, Vinny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys? Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it belongs, where stuff gets decided. Craig
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys? Does Jonathan represent the viewpoint of the WW2 developers that are coming on board? Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something made by people like this guy. On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael Jouravlev wrote: > > On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>>Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should > >>>answer. > >> > >>It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you. > >> > >> > >>And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your > >>own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because > >>this is a public list)... > > > > > > > > > > First, why replying in public list? > > I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up > in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part. > > > Then, who said what exactly? > > Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with: > > "this is sh** is getting personal now." > > and ends with: > > "F*** you, you contemptible little sh**." > > was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he -- Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > I think it was a very bad idea on his part. Of course _you_ do, you foul-mouthed little boy! _I_ think it was great :D I'm _still_ all a-giggle! Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Michael Jouravlev wrote: On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should answer. It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you. And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because this is a public list)... First, why replying in public list? I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part. Then, who said what exactly? Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with: "this is sh** is getting personal now." and ends with: "F*** you, you contemptible little sh**." was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he insulted me as a result of my offering honest feedback on the struts.apache.org page. The message was, of course, not meant to appear on this list. However, I stand by it completely. People like James Mitchell (and certain others here) are a terrible thing for open source. I already expressed in public separately that, if somebody gives you feedback on your work, you thank them. If that is not written anywhere as part of the "Apache Way" it should be. (would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a public list). And the bitch is: does not SAF2 start smooth, considering that FreeMarker is the default view technology for WebWork 2.2. Well, FreeMarker has a license that is basically the same BSD-style license that ASF uses. There is no requirement there for anybody who uses this work to share my political views. Actually, they don't even have to like my guts. :-) Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Everybody dance now! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
On 3/27/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > James Mitchell wrote: > > [ Jonathon's well-reasoned response ;] So the whole thing was Jonathan's monologue? In this case I admire his breadth of writing styles. I am still wondering how the whole merger will work out with FreeMarker being default view technology for WebWork. By the way, I got an email from [EMAIL PROTECTED] address with the message "This email has triggered the content filter for appearing to violate the PROFANITY policy". All I did is I used "bi*ch" word (this is how they call lady dogs, aren't they?). Big brother is watching... Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
*rotflmao* That's beautiful! I kinda wish _I_ would have gotten that response, though :( James Mitchell wrote: > [ Jonathon's well-reasoned response ;] You just brightened my day _considerably_! Thanks :D Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
On 3/27/06, Michael Jouravlev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > First, why replying in public list? Then, who said what exactly? > (would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a > public list). Personally, I'm not interested, and I'm dev/nulling the whole thread. But, then I don't rubberneck at traffic collisions either :) -T. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should > > answer. > > It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you. > > > And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your > own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because > this is a public list)... First, why replying in public list? Then, who said what exactly? (would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a public list). And the bitch is: does not SAF2 start smooth, considering that FreeMarker is the default view technology for WebWork 2.2. Everybody dance now! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should answer. It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you. And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because this is a public list)... ... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think you are? You must be one ill-bred little f***. I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I don't have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your cohorts a f***ing thing. If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the next time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what you should say: "Thank you." I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you look there? I hope I completely humiliated you. If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more. People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's first experience of an open source project is something like Struts full of arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you. F*** you, you contemptible little sh**. Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to / dev/null. Have a wonderful day. -- James Mitchell P.S. "Thank you" On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote: Emmanouil Batsis wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.) [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally] Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to answer this. Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they don't want to answer such questions I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this is true? It did not take me long using google to find the following page: http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that the points there are truthful. In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened. Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Thanks, Manos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Emmanouil Batsis wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.) [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally] Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to answer this. Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they don't want to answer such questions I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this is true? It did not take me long using google to find the following page: http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that the points there are truthful. In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened. Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Thanks, Manos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.) [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally] I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this is true? Thanks, Manos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jack, I think folks on this list have heard enough complaining and whinning by you and others. You claim that your right of free speech is being violated, but all I have heard from you is insults. This is a list for professional developers, not gangsters! Also, how are contributing by claiming that Struts has not lived up to your expectations? If anything, you should be contributing to make it better. All said and done, I have now used Struts for over a year and I must say that the creators did a great job! It's a very powerful framework and the folks you labored ardously to design and implement it deserve, at the very least, a thank you from all of us. - Asad On Sat, 25 Mar 2006, Dakota Jack wrote: I don't know about you, but my email comes organized so that I can easily work around anything that happens on a list. I would think that this is fairly normal and something we could expect? I can remember when the dev list would say "Heh, take that stuff to the user list". But, if things go to the dev list I am "down with that". I really think that this is an important topic. A lot of talent is not going to get hooked into Struts, as it has not in the past, if we continue that way things are. I am interested, by the way, in everyone's input. On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dakota, Thanks for wanting my input :-) I am not looking for censorship, but I am looking for productive discussions and sometimes that means pruning one discussion for the sake of another. I tend to agree that this thread should move onto the dev board; it seems to be the appropraite place, in my eyes, for discussion on project management, patches, and the future vision of Struts. I don't think it is a difficult thing to transpose these discussions there, so, if probably will hold off on this thread until it moves over. I just don't want to penalize true user questions here, since some people need real development help, and I think having a ton of philosophical inbound mail detracts from it. Paul --- Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I think it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on and says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than why it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or both. On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Johnathan, I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond to this privately :) Expect an email soon. Paul --- Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Paul Benedict wrote: +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated much good; thanks for sharing. Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure. I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and people who really should have by now really grappled with this question and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the insults and such. I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people and never got any answer from. What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development stagnated? I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list. I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow. Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now I am asking you... :-) Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Craig McClanahan wrote: No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation, but do it somewhere else. (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has become people just talking over one another now. I'm all for people expressing
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
I don't know about you, but my email comes organized so that I can easily work around anything that happens on a list. I would think that this is fairly normal and something we could expect? I can remember when the dev list would say "Heh, take that stuff to the user list". But, if things go to the dev list I am "down with that". I really think that this is an important topic. A lot of talent is not going to get hooked into Struts, as it has not in the past, if we continue that way things are. I am interested, by the way, in everyone's input. On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dakota, > > Thanks for wanting my input :-) I am not looking for censorship, > but I am looking for productive discussions and sometimes that means > pruning one discussion for the sake of another. I tend to agree that > this thread should move onto the dev board; it seems to be the appropraite > place, in my eyes, for discussion on project management, patches, and > the future vision of Struts. I don't think it is a difficult thing > to transpose these discussions there, so, if probably will hold off on > this > thread until it moves over. I just don't want to penalize true user > questions here, since some people need real development help, and I think > having a ton of philosophical inbound mail detracts from it. > > Paul > > --- Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I > think > > it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as > > close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on > > this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I > > cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on > and > > says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than > why > > it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or > both. > > > > On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Johnathan, > > > > > > I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond > > > to this privately :) Expect an email soon. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > --- Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Paul Benedict wrote: > > > > > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint > > > > > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be > > > > > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated > > > > > much good; thanks for sharing. > > > > > > > > Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have > closure. > > > > > > > > I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and > > > > people who really should have by now really grappled with this > question > > > > and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the > > > > insults and such. > > > > > > > > I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other > people, I > > > > don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm > just > > > > going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other > people > > > > and never got any answer from. > > > > > > > > What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development > > > stagnated? > > > > > > > > I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question > is > > > > well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list. > > > > > > > > I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't > share > > > > your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the > > > > impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow. > > > > > > > > Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the > > > > woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I > > > > pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to > > > > simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So > now > > > > I am asking you... :-) > > > > > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > > > -- > > > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Craig McClanahan wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in > directions > > > that > > > > >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the > > > conversation, > > > > >>>but do it somewhere else. > > > > >> > > > > >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... > > > > >> > > > > >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, > agree > > > > >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but > has > > > > >>become people just talking over one another now. > > > > >> > > > > >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how > > > unpopular, > > > > >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listenin
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dakota, Thanks for wanting my input :-) I am not looking for censorship, but I am looking for productive discussions and sometimes that means pruning one discussion for the sake of another. I tend to agree that this thread should move onto the dev board; it seems to be the appropraite place, in my eyes, for discussion on project management, patches, and the future vision of Struts. I don't think it is a difficult thing to transpose these discussions there, so, if probably will hold off on this thread until it moves over. I just don't want to penalize true user questions here, since some people need real development help, and I think having a ton of philosophical inbound mail detracts from it. Paul --- Dakota Jack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I think > it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as > close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on > this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I > cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on and > says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than why > it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or both. > > On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Johnathan, > > > > I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond > > to this privately :) Expect an email soon. > > > > Paul > > > > --- Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Paul Benedict wrote: > > > > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint > > > > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be > > > > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated > > > > much good; thanks for sharing. > > > > > > Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure. > > > > > > I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and > > > people who really should have by now really grappled with this question > > > and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the > > > insults and such. > > > > > > I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I > > > don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just > > > going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people > > > and never got any answer from. > > > > > > What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development > > stagnated? > > > > > > I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is > > > well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list. > > > > > > I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share > > > your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the > > > impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow. > > > > > > Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the > > > woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I > > > pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to > > > simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now > > > I am asking you... :-) > > > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > > -- > > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>Craig McClanahan wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions > > that > > > >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the > > conversation, > > > >>>but do it somewhere else. > > > >> > > > >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... > > > >> > > > >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree > > > >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has > > > >>become people just talking over one another now. > > > >> > > > >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how > > unpopular, > > > >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one > > > >>another, and then it's an exercise in futility. > > > >> > > > >>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone > > > >>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at > > > >>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the > > conversation > > > >>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's > > opinion > > > >>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now. > > > >> > > > >>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread > > won't > > > >>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another > > and > > > >>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking > > > >>points for next time? ;) > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>Craig > > > >> > > > >>Frank > > > >> > >
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I think it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on and says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than why it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or both. On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Johnathan, > > I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond > to this privately :) Expect an email soon. > > Paul > > --- Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Paul Benedict wrote: > > > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint > > > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be > > > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated > > > much good; thanks for sharing. > > > > Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure. > > > > I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and > > people who really should have by now really grappled with this question > > and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the > > insults and such. > > > > I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I > > don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just > > going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people > > and never got any answer from. > > > > What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development > stagnated? > > > > I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is > > well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list. > > > > I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share > > your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the > > impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow. > > > > Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the > > woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I > > pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to > > simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now > > I am asking you... :-) > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > -- > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>Craig McClanahan wrote: > > >> > > >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions > that > > >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the > conversation, > > >>>but do it somewhere else. > > >> > > >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... > > >> > > >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree > > >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has > > >>become people just talking over one another now. > > >> > > >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how > unpopular, > > >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one > > >>another, and then it's an exercise in futility. > > >> > > >>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone > > >>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at > > >>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the > conversation > > >>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's > opinion > > >>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now. > > >> > > >>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread > won't > > >>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another > and > > >>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking > > >>points for next time? ;) > > >> > > >> > > >>>Craig > > >> > > >>Frank > > >> > > >>- > > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Why does anyone want to stop a thread? If it stops it stops? What is the motivation for stopping a discussion? This seems really, really strange. If you don't want to participate, don't. If you don't like what is being said, have your own say. But to want other people to stop talking? That is a funny thing to want to do. I personally don't care what other people talk about on threads that don't interest me. I am interested in discussing Jonathon's question but the regular supports of the status quo here have tried to stop the thread by introducing personal attacks and by saying that they just cannot stand this thead going on. If anyone ever says they want a thread to stop, I am really interested in why. Why? What do you care? I hope we are not going down the bandwidth silliness again. On 3/25/06, Frank W. Zammetti <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Craig McClanahan wrote: > > No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions > that > > are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the > conversation, > > but do it somewhere else. > > (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... > > Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree > with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has > become people just talking over one another now. > > I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular, > but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one > another, and then it's an exercise in futility. > > No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone > out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at > some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation > has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion > was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now. > > Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't > be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and > it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking > points for next time? ;) > > > Craig > > Frank > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
It has been taken off track by your backers, Craig. There were some questions raised about why Struts failed and how it might be good to look at how this list behaves. This is the only forum for that discussion. You get people that are wonderfully happy with the list that take that concern down nasty paths. Talk to them. But, the conversation should not be stiffled because people cannot accept criticism. Your personal lack of any sort of response, given that you are a principal architect of the failure in question is disappointing. To now attempt to stiffle any conversation of the situation you have failed to address may well be one of the main reasons for the failure people are trying to analyze. Is analysis of failure not a good idea here? On 3/25/06, Craig McClanahan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Mark Lowe wrote: > > > Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that > > > apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of > > > half-wit struts users like me.. > > > > Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so > > happens that the conversation developed here. > > > No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that > are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the > conversation, > but do it somewhere else. > > Craig > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
What is your problem with this thread, Mark. Why can you just not STAND it if the people who are talking talk? Why do you want them to be SILENT? You talk about other people soiling, smearing, etc., and you are one of the worse offenders. Jonathon comes on here and makes a few legitimate points and you start going ballistic. What the hell is wrong with you? What dog do you have in the hunt? Or, are you just supposed to be the person to tell other people when to stop. You try to do a +1000 but, like the rest of us, you only have a +1 at best. This is what community here is really about and I for one am happy to see that not everyone is afraid to talk about what really happens on the list versus what you and others like you perpetrate. I would personally like to thank Jonathon for coming by. His presence has already led to improvements in the website. Do you have anything you would like to say other than you want other people to stop talking? On 3/25/06, Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that > apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of > half-wit struts users like me.. > > I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil" > > You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for > all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say.. > Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're > involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit > privledges" .. What do you want people to say? > > Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I > surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea > has beaten us all into submission Anything else you want me to say > to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please > just tell me what i can do.. > > Mark > > On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mark Lowe wrote: > > > May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this > > > thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear".. > > > > What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more > > explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that > > statement or retract it. > > > > I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The > > question is as follows: > > > > "If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts > > development stagnated to such an extent?" > > > > The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had > > to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so > > that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the > > "Struts" brand-name. > > > > Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it > > embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking > > about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely > > fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's > > 100% on-topic to this discussion. > > > > I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a > > natural question when people insist that their approach to project > > management is beyond reproach. > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > -- > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Johnathan, I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond to this privately :) Expect an email soon. Paul --- Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Paul Benedict wrote: > > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint > > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be > > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated > > much good; thanks for sharing. > > Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure. > > I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and > people who really should have by now really grappled with this question > and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the > insults and such. > > I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I > don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just > going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people > and never got any answer from. > > What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development stagnated? > > I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is > well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list. > > I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share > your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the > impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow. > > Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the > woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I > pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to > simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now > I am asking you... :-) > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >>Craig McClanahan wrote: > >> > >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that > >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation, > >>>but do it somewhere else. > >> > >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... > >> > >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree > >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has > >>become people just talking over one another now. > >> > >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular, > >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one > >>another, and then it's an exercise in futility. > >> > >>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone > >>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at > >>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation > >>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion > >>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now. > >> > >>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't > >>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and > >>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking > >>points for next time? ;) > >> > >> > >>>Craig > >> > >>Frank > >> > >>- > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> > > > > > > > > __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Okay, Dave?!? I guess you are right after all: non-public open-source projects are really quite normal, right? Keep truckin'! On 3/25/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dakota Jack wrote: > > This is going to be one of my all time favorites. Brought a HUGE grin > to my > > face. > > > > Weird, but okay. > > If you are addressing the apparent dichotomy with "publicly-accessible" > and "open-source" then you probably just don't know very much, but I'll > talk slowly, as there are two different reasons I chose to risk you > being an asshole: > > 1) Open-source roots, multiplicity of commiters, not-yet-released (and, > I suppose, may never be at this point, but who knows) > 2) Pre-released, ground-up effort > > Multiple projects, unknown future. Labeled as open-source but relatively > small community and for the forseeable future (3-6 months?) nothing will > be publicly available. > > Dave > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
If people want to talk, Mark, what do you care? You and a few other drones come on and beg people to stop talking. What is that about? Who in the hell do you think you are to dictate who wants to talk? You always have these facists tendencies? The trouble is that the truth hurts. Why don't you address the issue? The issue is whether Struts crapped out and lost the competition with WebWorks? You would think that did not happen and that everything was wonderful. If the reasons Struts crapped out are not addressed, guess what? It will happen again. If you keep doing the same thing you did, you will get the same thing you got. What you got in this case was a completely unacceptable code set that had to be rescrued by a competitor. Is it okay to talk about or do you still just want people to shut up? On 3/25/06, Mark Lowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this > thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear".. > Its just become some sick kind of dirty protest > http://pso.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pso1700/DIRTY%20PROTESTS.htm.. > > Mark > > On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dave Newton wrote: > > > Jonathan Revusky wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would > > > not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not > > > have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust > J. > > > Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because > > > in general, most people aren't very good programmers. > > > > The whole idea that, when you give somebody commit privileges, that they > > just go beserk committing all kinds of code of questionable quality -- > > this is just not something that really happens. I recognize that it > > could happen. Also it could happen that you give commit privileges to > > someone who is outright malicious. However, the latter would be so > > infrequent really that, IMO, it's not an issue. If a wandering serial > > saboteur -- the Ted Bundy of open source coding, if you will -- happens > > to get involved in your project, well, I would attribute that to > > inordinate bad luck, maybe like walking down the street and getting > > struck by lightning. Possible, but so unlikely that it does not > > condition your decision making. > > > > What usually happens is that people sound all enthusiastic about doing > > stuff and then, when they have the commit access, they simply do > > nothing. That is what happens easily the vast majority of times. People > > overestimate the time they can devote to something. They underestimate > > the investment that it is to really get their heads around the code. > > > > When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually > > quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list > > prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start > > off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very > > time consuming for the more established people on the team to review. > > > > One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their > > legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments and > > so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of those > > things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite low > risk. > > > > That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing of > > things. I think that any people managing an open source project have to > > be thinking about how to get new blood into the project. > > > > > > > > Again, YMMV, and hopefully has! > > > > > > > > >>>If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I > > >>>hope it continues to. > > >> > > >>It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot > > >>of people use FreeMarker, you know. > > > > > > > > > That's a pretty small sample size, but good :) > > > > Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your > > experience running open source projects. > > > > Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my considered > > view that this idea that the ability to commit code is something that > > needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded. > > > > Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering > > the bar to becoming a committer. > > > > The problem is that they've created this political structure where > > they've defined committers as people with political power and > > non-committers as people with no political power and so it has to do > > with a certain clique retaining their power. It has basically nothing to > > do with guarding the quality of the code. > > > > Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely to > > disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a > > committer than coding prowess
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
I fully understand Struts, Martin. Struts is fairly easy to understand. I work with code that makes Struts look like tinker toys. I also understand that Struts cannot be organized by the MVC paradigm and have discussed that at length many times on the list. Ted is right that only loose coupling with V --> C --> M is possible with web applications like Struts. I think about what I actually see on the list. I don't think about what you are claiming happens. I have complaints. Sorry if that offends you. I have more knowledge about software architecture and design than you will ever know, Martin. I have proposed alternatives. Unfortunately, the "committers" decided on alternatives which have failed. They have had to admit that but won't discuss it. That was the topic here, and you have avoided it too. Would you care to discuss that? On 3/25/06, Martin Gainty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Steven- > > A multi-threaded enterprise wide solution that is organised according to > true Model View Controller paradigm is NOT a pile of crap nor is anything > else you dont understand- > I would strongly suggest you think about all of the hard work and effort > that the commiters and people on this list put into the product which is > offered to us lowly developers > basically for free > In the meanwhile I would also strongly suggest you read everything you can > about Software Architecture and Design so that you will be able to propose > an alternative > but If you have no alternative then opening your ears and listening to > "how can we make our system more maintainable while accomodating enterpise > wide needs for our customers" > would be a constructive use of your time > > Martin- > - Original Message - > From: "Steve Raeburn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Struts Users Mailing List" > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:33 AM > Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation > > > >I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for > >everyone. This really will be my last word. > > > > Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of > > crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's > > worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really > > believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you > > think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining > and > > doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining? > > > > Please. Get a life. > > > > Steve > > > > p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in > > the wind. > > > > Dakota Jack wrote: > >> The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure. > >> While > >> sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they > continue > >> to > >> extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an > >> honorarium > >> in computer history. > >> > >> > >> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>> Steve Raeburn wrote: > >>> > >>>> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going > to > >>>> change. > >>>> > >>> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point > that > >>> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing > >>> everything right, then what is your explanation for that? > >>> > >>> Jonathan Revusky > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > back." > >> ~Dakota Jack~ > >> > >> > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Well, you managed to avoid the whole issue again, Raeburn. Do you ever address a topic? On 3/25/06, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for > everyone. This really will be my last word. > > Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of > crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's > worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really > believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you > think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining > and doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining? > > Please. Get a life. > > Steve > > p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in > the wind. > > Dakota Jack wrote: > > The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this > failure. While > > sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they > continue to > > extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an > honorarium > > in computer history. > > > > > > On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Steve Raeburn wrote: > >> > >>> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to > >>> change. > >>> > >> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point > that > >> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing > >> everything right, then what is your explanation for that? > >> > >> Jonathan Revusky > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its > back." > > ~Dakota Jack~ > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Paul Benedict wrote: +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated much good; thanks for sharing. Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure. I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and people who really should have by now really grappled with this question and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the insults and such. I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people and never got any answer from. What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development stagnated? I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list. I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow. Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now I am asking you... :-) Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Craig McClanahan wrote: No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation, but do it somewhere else. (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has become people just talking over one another now. I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular, but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one another, and then it's an exercise in futility. No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now. Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking points for next time? ;) Craig Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
+1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated much good; thanks for sharing. --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Craig McClanahan wrote: > > No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that > > are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation, > > but do it somewhere else. > > (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... > > Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree > with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has > become people just talking over one another now. > > I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular, > but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one > another, and then it's an exercise in futility. > > No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone > out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at > some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation > has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion > was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now. > > Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't > be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and > it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking > points for next time? ;) > > > Craig > > Frank > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Craig McClanahan wrote: No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation, but do it somewhere else. (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)... Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has become people just talking over one another now. I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular, but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one another, and then it's an exercise in futility. No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now. Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking points for next time? ;) Craig Frank - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mark Lowe wrote: > > Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that > > apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of > > half-wit struts users like me.. > > Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so > happens that the conversation developed here. No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation, but do it somewhere else. Craig
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark Lowe wrote: > > Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that > > apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of > > half-wit struts users like me.. > > Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so > happens that the conversation developed here. > > What I'm wondering about all this is the following: > > Suppose you went to some meeting, let's say a Struts Users Group > meeting. I'm talking about a non-virtual setting. At this meeting, > various people get involved in a discussion, maybe even a passionate, > heated discussion about something like this. > > Under what circumstances would you butt into a conversation other people > were having and start loudly telling one or more of those people to shut > up? I mean in a situation in which you were not even part of the > discussion even. > > I would bet that you never would behave like this, because this would be > outrageous, uncouth behavior. If you're not interested in what they're > talking about, simply wander off and have some other interaction. The > fact that these people are having whatever discussion does not cause you > any particular inconvenience or problem. Similarly, nobody forces you to > follow every conversation that is going on in this forum. > > Now, if you think the above behavior is unacceptable in the non-virtual > meeting, why do you think it's acceptable here? You take it upon > yourself to jump into a conversation in which you were not even > participating and tell people to shut up. > > Please explain why you think this is acceptable. > > > > > I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil" > > > > You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for > > all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say.. > > Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're > > involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit > > privledges" .. What do you want people to say? > > As I said before, I posed a question. It was not a smarmy sarcastic > question like that of James Mitchell asking me where my patch for the > front web page was. I simply asked a straightforward question about why > Struts development had stagnated if all the project management practices > were so great. > > This is a completely fair and relevant question in the context of the > discussion that developed. I asked the question because I truly was > interested to know what their answer would be. > > I still don't know since nobody has answered the question. Again, why > should I not ask this question? In what way is it a "smear" for me to > ask this question? > > And again, I will be fascinated to know why you think your behavior in > butting into a conversation in which you were not a participant is at > all acceptable. Maybe you should step back and think about this a bit. > > Regards, > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > > > > Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I > > surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea > > has beaten us all into submission Anything else you want me to say > > to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please > > just tell me what i can do.. > > > > Mark > > > > On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>Mark Lowe wrote: > >> > >>>May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this > >>>thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear".. > >> > >>What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more > >>explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that > >>statement or retract it. > >> > >>I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The > >>question is as follows: > >> > >>"If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts > >>development stagnated to such an extent?" > >> > >>The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had > >>to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so > >>that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the > >>"Struts" brand-name. > >> > >>Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it > >>embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking > >>about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely > >>fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's > >>100% on-topic to this discussion. > >> > >>I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a > >>natural question when people insist that their approach to project > >>management is beyond reproach. Okay .. You're correct 100%, I'm wrong.. Everything you say is correct, I'm not disputing anything your say, and i retract anything you feel obligied to respond to. Will that do?
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Mark Lowe wrote: Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of half-wit struts users like me.. Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so happens that the conversation developed here. What I'm wondering about all this is the following: Suppose you went to some meeting, let's say a Struts Users Group meeting. I'm talking about a non-virtual setting. At this meeting, various people get involved in a discussion, maybe even a passionate, heated discussion about something like this. Under what circumstances would you butt into a conversation other people were having and start loudly telling one or more of those people to shut up? I mean in a situation in which you were not even part of the discussion even. I would bet that you never would behave like this, because this would be outrageous, uncouth behavior. If you're not interested in what they're talking about, simply wander off and have some other interaction. The fact that these people are having whatever discussion does not cause you any particular inconvenience or problem. Similarly, nobody forces you to follow every conversation that is going on in this forum. Now, if you think the above behavior is unacceptable in the non-virtual meeting, why do you think it's acceptable here? You take it upon yourself to jump into a conversation in which you were not even participating and tell people to shut up. Please explain why you think this is acceptable. I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil" You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say.. Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit privledges" .. What do you want people to say? As I said before, I posed a question. It was not a smarmy sarcastic question like that of James Mitchell asking me where my patch for the front web page was. I simply asked a straightforward question about why Struts development had stagnated if all the project management practices were so great. This is a completely fair and relevant question in the context of the discussion that developed. I asked the question because I truly was interested to know what their answer would be. I still don't know since nobody has answered the question. Again, why should I not ask this question? In what way is it a "smear" for me to ask this question? And again, I will be fascinated to know why you think your behavior in butting into a conversation in which you were not a participant is at all acceptable. Maybe you should step back and think about this a bit. Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea has beaten us all into submission Anything else you want me to say to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please just tell me what i can do.. Mark On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Mark Lowe wrote: May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear".. What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that statement or retract it. I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The question is as follows: "If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts development stagnated to such an extent?" The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the "Struts" brand-name. Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's 100% on-topic to this discussion. I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a natural question when people insist that their approach to project management is beyond reproach. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of half-wit struts users like me.. I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil" You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say.. Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit privledges" .. What do you want people to say? Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea has beaten us all into submission Anything else you want me to say to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please just tell me what i can do.. Mark On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark Lowe wrote: > > May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this > > thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear".. > > What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more > explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that > statement or retract it. > > I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The > question is as follows: > > "If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts > development stagnated to such an extent?" > > The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had > to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so > that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the > "Struts" brand-name. > > Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it > embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking > about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely > fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's > 100% on-topic to this discussion. > > I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a > natural question when people insist that their approach to project > management is beyond reproach. > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Mark Lowe wrote: May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear".. What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that statement or retract it. I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The question is as follows: "If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts development stagnated to such an extent?" The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the "Struts" brand-name. Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's 100% on-topic to this discussion. I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a natural question when people insist that their approach to project management is beyond reproach. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dakota Jack wrote: > As to the rest, so far as I can tell, you are the troll, my friend. > *rotflmao* And I am most certainly NOT your friend. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dakota Jack wrote: > While sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, Oo, heavens no. Maybe you haven't seen much code, but believe me: it gets much, much, MUCH worse. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dakota Jack wrote: > This is going to be one of my all time favorites. Brought a HUGE grin to my > face. > Weird, but okay. If you are addressing the apparent dichotomy with "publicly-accessible" and "open-source" then you probably just don't know very much, but I'll talk slowly, as there are two different reasons I chose to risk you being an asshole: 1) Open-source roots, multiplicity of commiters, not-yet-released (and, I suppose, may never be at this point, but who knows) 2) Pre-released, ground-up effort Multiple projects, unknown future. Labeled as open-source but relatively small community and for the forseeable future (3-6 months?) nothing will be publicly available. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually > quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list > prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start > off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very > time consuming for the more established people on the team to review. > > One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their > legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments > and so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of > those things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite > low risk. > > That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing > of things. I think that any people managing an open source project > have to be thinking about how to get new blood into the project. Yep; agreed. >>> It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot >>> of people use FreeMarker, you know. >> That's a pretty small sample size, but good :) > Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your > experience running open source projects. Hmm, I suppose (although 0 times anything is still 0) but I would hazard a guess that several of the projects I _have_ run have had more committers than many open-source projects (when you're dealing with a company with 50K employees of which somewhere between 5-10% are developers, you naturally end up with a lot of folks :) > Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my > considered view that this idea that the ability to commit code is > something that needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded. If you're adding the word "zealously" I agree. > Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering > the bar to becoming a committer. Also partially agree depending on how "drastic" it would be. > Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely > to disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a > committer than coding prowess is. I'd argue that, but my forehead is starting to leave little red spoogy marks so I won't ;) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear".. Its just become some sick kind of dirty protest http://pso.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pso1700/DIRTY%20PROTESTS.htm.. Mark On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dave Newton wrote: > > Jonathan Revusky wrote: > > > > > > I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would > > not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not > > have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust J. > > Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because > > in general, most people aren't very good programmers. > > The whole idea that, when you give somebody commit privileges, that they > just go beserk committing all kinds of code of questionable quality -- > this is just not something that really happens. I recognize that it > could happen. Also it could happen that you give commit privileges to > someone who is outright malicious. However, the latter would be so > infrequent really that, IMO, it's not an issue. If a wandering serial > saboteur -- the Ted Bundy of open source coding, if you will -- happens > to get involved in your project, well, I would attribute that to > inordinate bad luck, maybe like walking down the street and getting > struck by lightning. Possible, but so unlikely that it does not > condition your decision making. > > What usually happens is that people sound all enthusiastic about doing > stuff and then, when they have the commit access, they simply do > nothing. That is what happens easily the vast majority of times. People > overestimate the time they can devote to something. They underestimate > the investment that it is to really get their heads around the code. > > When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually > quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list > prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start > off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very > time consuming for the more established people on the team to review. > > One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their > legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments and > so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of those > things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite low risk. > > That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing of > things. I think that any people managing an open source project have to > be thinking about how to get new blood into the project. > > > > > Again, YMMV, and hopefully has! > > > > > >>>If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I > >>>hope it continues to. > >> > >>It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot > >>of people use FreeMarker, you know. > > > > > > That's a pretty small sample size, but good :) > > Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your > experience running open source projects. > > Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my considered > view that this idea that the ability to commit code is something that > needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded. > > Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering > the bar to becoming a committer. > > The problem is that they've created this political structure where > they've defined committers as people with political power and > non-committers as people with no political power and so it has to do > with a certain clique retaining their power. It has basically nothing to > do with guarding the quality of the code. > > Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely to > disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a > committer than coding prowess is. > > Regards, > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ > > > > > Dave > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dave Newton wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust J. Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because in general, most people aren't very good programmers. The whole idea that, when you give somebody commit privileges, that they just go beserk committing all kinds of code of questionable quality -- this is just not something that really happens. I recognize that it could happen. Also it could happen that you give commit privileges to someone who is outright malicious. However, the latter would be so infrequent really that, IMO, it's not an issue. If a wandering serial saboteur -- the Ted Bundy of open source coding, if you will -- happens to get involved in your project, well, I would attribute that to inordinate bad luck, maybe like walking down the street and getting struck by lightning. Possible, but so unlikely that it does not condition your decision making. What usually happens is that people sound all enthusiastic about doing stuff and then, when they have the commit access, they simply do nothing. That is what happens easily the vast majority of times. People overestimate the time they can devote to something. They underestimate the investment that it is to really get their heads around the code. When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very time consuming for the more established people on the team to review. One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments and so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of those things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite low risk. That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing of things. I think that any people managing an open source project have to be thinking about how to get new blood into the project. Again, YMMV, and hopefully has! If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I hope it continues to. It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot of people use FreeMarker, you know. That's a pretty small sample size, but good :) Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your experience running open source projects. Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my considered view that this idea that the ability to commit code is something that needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded. Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering the bar to becoming a committer. The problem is that they've created this political structure where they've defined committers as people with political power and non-committers as people with no political power and so it has to do with a certain clique retaining their power. It has basically nothing to do with guarding the quality of the code. Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely to disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a committer than coding prowess is. Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Steven- A multi-threaded enterprise wide solution that is organised according to true Model View Controller paradigm is NOT a pile of crap nor is anything else you dont understand- I would strongly suggest you think about all of the hard work and effort that the commiters and people on this list put into the product which is offered to us lowly developers basically for free In the meanwhile I would also strongly suggest you read everything you can about Software Architecture and Design so that you will be able to propose an alternative but If you have no alternative then opening your ears and listening to "how can we make our system more maintainable while accomodating enterpise wide needs for our customers" would be a constructive use of your time Martin- - Original Message - From: "Steve Raeburn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:33 AM Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for everyone. This really will be my last word. Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining and doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining? Please. Get a life. Steve p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in the wind. Dakota Jack wrote: The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure. While sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they continue to extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an honorarium in computer history. On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve Raeburn wrote: Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to change. In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing everything right, then what is your explanation for that? Jonathan Revusky -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Steve Raeburn wrote: I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for everyone. This really will be my last word. Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? Steve, do you realize that a lot of rank-and-file people out there don't have a choice about what tools they use in their daily paid work? For example, Patrick Lightbody, currently lead developer of the Webwork project, was using Struts in his day job for a good while. I recall this from looking at this blog. When he wrote this "Struts Really Sucks" blog entry, http://blogs.opensymphony.com/plightbo/2003/10/webwork_docaday_struts_really.html he knew whereof he spoke. He had quite intimate knowledge of Struts from having to use it at work. If he'd had the choice in that day job, he surely would have been using Webwork. I remember at one point lurking on the Tapestry list a bit (a few years back) and Howard Lewis Ship (Mr. Tapestry himself) mentioned that he was using Struts in his day-job and finding it quite frustrating. If Howard had had the choice, he surely would have used Tapestry. Anyway, you really ought to answer the question I posed earlier. Why, in your opinion, did Struts development stagnate? Surely you have thought about this Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > If you really > believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you > think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining > and doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining? Please. Get a life. Steve p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in the wind. Dakota Jack wrote: The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure. While sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they continue to extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an honorarium in computer history. On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve Raeburn wrote: Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to change. In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing everything right, then what is your explanation for that? Jonathan Revusky -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for everyone. This really will be my last word. Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining and doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining? Please. Get a life. Steve p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in the wind. Dakota Jack wrote: The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure. While sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they continue to extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an honorarium in computer history. On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve Raeburn wrote: Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to change. In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing everything right, then what is your explanation for that? Jonathan Revusky -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure. While sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they continue to extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an honorarium in computer history. On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Steve Raeburn wrote: > > Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to > > change. > > In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that > progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing > everything right, then what is your explanation for that? > > Jonathan Revusky -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
This is going to be one of my all time favorites. Brought a HUGE grin to my face. On 3/24/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
I could not bear the thought of having some of these committers talk about my code when they have trouble with the English language, much less Java. On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Michael Jouravlev wrote: > > On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that > >>absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that > >>we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we > >>require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced > >>developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers > >>will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to > >>only happen after the code is updated. > >> > >>Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. > >> > >>Steve > > > > > > Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket > > and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well, > > if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-) > > Or that there is a committer who actually looks at it... :-) > > Jonathan Revusky > -- > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Good God, Michael, he was trying to be sarcastic and only reached sardonic but fooled you. Do you actually think a lightbulb like Raeburn would be agreeing with Revusky? Don't you realize that Raeburn is another one of "DOH" bunch? On 3/24/06, Michael Jouravlev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that > > absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that > > we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we > > require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced > > developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers > > will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to > > only happen after the code is updated. > > > > Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. > > > > Steve > > Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket > and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well, > if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-) > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
I don't think you see, Steve, that this sardonic cuteness misses the whole point. While you seem to think you have it all going on, this in fact is inane. No one in their right mind without some political in or position would take much time to contribute to Struts, because the process is completely bankrupt. On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that > absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that > we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we > require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced > developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers > will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to > only happen after the code is updated. > > Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. > > Steve > > Jonathan Revusky wrote: > > Dave Newton wrote: > >> Dakota Jack wrote: > >> > >>> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? > >>> > >> > >> > >> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an > >> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable > >> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me > >> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I > >> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate > >> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this > >> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted > >> data"-a-thon). > >> > >> http://www.thedailywtf.com/ > >> > >> Today's is "the cost of static." > > > > > > I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how > > this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative > > model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. > > People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far > > as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not > > clear to me how this is relevant at all. > > > > I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed > > by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the > > one described in that article would be caught at that point. But > > another point about this is that having more people in the code could > > decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the > > phenomenon of more eyeballs. > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > -- > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > >> > >> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to > walk > >> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better > than > >> some of the stories there (I hope :) > >> > >> Dave > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Turns out you were talking about, as I understand you, code in company as opposed to code on an open source project. This is totally irrelevant. The issue is not whether there are people who make mistakes in companies. The issue is about open source. Those are not the same. So, do you have any experience, as you suggested, with the relevant matter, viz., open source, as indicated? As to the rest, so far as I can tell, you are the troll, my friend. On 3/24/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dakota Jack wrote: > > I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? > > > > Uh... you're saying you don't believe I've managed and/or worked on > large projects at large companies? > > Or you're saying that you don't believe that I've had (occasionally > _substantial_) issues with sub-standard coders having commit rights to > said projects (which I would think is a no-brainer)? (Two good ones pop > immediately to mind: why is the laser printer printing everything as a > mirror image? Hint: it's not a printer setting, and it's somewhere in > that 1.2 million lines of C and C++ code. Why does Beavis occasionally > hover 8-16 pixels above the ground under certain pad inputs combined > with one of two specific moving obstacles? That's somewhere in 16K of > self-modifying Z80 assembly language. Ooo, how about trying to fix a > 300-line lisp macro written by somebody else that really didn't know > lisp? Or the completely undocumented 64K of 8051 assembly and C pump > control system that wanted a pressure compensation algorithm but it was > kind of hard to tell which of the multi-processors you needed to add the > code to? Or the cereal boxer written in Forth that would occasionally > (think 8-bit overflow) shoot cereal more or less everywhere?) > > NOT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE COMMIT ACCESS. Non-trivial things can happen > when they do. > > Either way, why on EARTH would I give a shit what you think? I've been > doing this for 20 years in essentially every major software field there > is (and about 10 years non-professionally before that) and somehow I've > managed not to alienate nearly every user of this list and still be a > pretty good programmer. Somehow I manage to not threaten people with > lawsuits if they call me a name. > > Tell me why I should care what you think, 'cuz I'm having problems with > this one. > > And for those of you flooding me with "don't feed the troll" emails, I > know... but now "Dakota Jack" is directly questioning my honesty and my > history, which I do _not_ take kindly to. I am many, many things, not > all good, but a person who does not speak the truth is not among those > things. I spend most of my non-computer time in a dojo where them's > fightin' words. > > Dave > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Again, sigh, this is irrelevant. This is so off the topic and the point. How you could think this is relevant is truly a mystery. On 3/24/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dakota Jack wrote: > > I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? > > > > This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an > internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable > (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me > (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I > believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate > the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this > works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted > data"-a-thon). > > http://www.thedailywtf.com/ > > Today's is "the cost of static." > > Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk > around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than > some of the stories there (I hope :) > > Dave > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Steve Raeburn wrote: Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to change. Of course not. Especially when, even when your practices fail, you can convince people like the Webwork guys to give you code and mask your failure. I guess you *could* continue to argue that this method has been a failure for both Struts and Apache (and most other significant open source projects), but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. I think it's much harder to become active in Struts than other open source projects. Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.) There is not absolute proof that there is causality between the above 2 things, the difficulty in getting involved, and the technical stagnation, but I strongly suspect there is. In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing everything right, then what is your explanation for that? Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Steve Jonathan Revusky wrote: Steve Raeburn wrote: I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to only happen after the code is updated. The problem with that proposal is that it sounds like your current practice. The current practice has already been tested and not produced good results. You have fallen further and further behind other competing projects and that is why it became necessary to bring in Webwork (heretofore a competitor) so that you could have something reasonably up-to-date to offer people. To continue with the same practices and expect radically different results does not seem rational. It is encouraging that you seem to see that there is a problem and are making a proposal. However, I think your proposal would have to actually involve a change of some sort. The one I suggested was drastically lowering the barriers to letting people directly commit code to the repository. To many people, this sounds very radical. People have suggested that this would lead to all kinds of problems. However, that can be put to an empirical test. Given the failure of your current policies, it is not as if you have so much to lose. Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different? Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Steve Jonathan Revusky wrote: Dave Newton wrote: Dakota Jack wrote: I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted data"-a-thon). http://www.thedailywtf.com/ Today's is "the cost of static." I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all. I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that point. But another point about this is that having more people in the code could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the phenomenon of more eyeballs. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than some of the stories there (I hope :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional command
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to change. I guess you *could* continue to argue that this method has been a failure for both Struts and Apache (and most other significant open source projects), but I think the evidence suggests otherwise. Steve Jonathan Revusky wrote: Steve Raeburn wrote: I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to only happen after the code is updated. The problem with that proposal is that it sounds like your current practice. The current practice has already been tested and not produced good results. You have fallen further and further behind other competing projects and that is why it became necessary to bring in Webwork (heretofore a competitor) so that you could have something reasonably up-to-date to offer people. To continue with the same practices and expect radically different results does not seem rational. It is encouraging that you seem to see that there is a problem and are making a proposal. However, I think your proposal would have to actually involve a change of some sort. The one I suggested was drastically lowering the barriers to letting people directly commit code to the repository. To many people, this sounds very radical. People have suggested that this would lead to all kinds of problems. However, that can be put to an empirical test. Given the failure of your current policies, it is not as if you have so much to lose. Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different? Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Steve Jonathan Revusky wrote: Dave Newton wrote: Dakota Jack wrote: I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted data"-a-thon). http://www.thedailywtf.com/ Today's is "the cost of static." I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all. I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that point. But another point about this is that having more people in the code could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the phenomenon of more eyeballs. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than some of the stories there (I hope :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > No, they're not insofar as code is code. However, there are huge > differences in the motivations and in the overall sociology or > dynamics of the situation though. In the open-source case, nobody is > working on some project that they find uninteresting because their boss > assigned them to that. If you're not interested, you simply don't > commit code, good or bad. Generally that's probably true, but I do know people who have been assigned to open-source projects by their managers; their own personal interest wasn't the motivator. > People who volunteer to work on open source are the kinds of people > who code for the joy of coding. Hopefully that's generally true, but it's certainly not an absolute. And enjoying coding is quite different from being able to code well. >> I know _I_ don't have the time to review each and every patch that comes >> in to a repo. > Well, are you suggesting that people should be donating code via the > bug tracker or wherever and nobody is necessarily reviewing it? > > If the code has to be reviewed one way or the other, it is surely the > same amount of work. The code review time itself might be the same, but if unreviewed code is commited the amount of work necessary may increase. Also note that my objections to unfettered access to the repo (at least partially) go away if there aren't many committers and a low number of commits; less to deal with. But the bottom line is that I have a lot of stuff going on in my life and simply don't have the time to devote to making sure other people don't break my toys. >> I'm still not going to give commit access to anybody that asks for it >> because _I_ haven't found that it works well. > I asked you before when you had actually tried this. I mean, in an > open-source context. As I point out above, the company context is > quite different. > > So I don't think you answered my question. I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust J. Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because in general, most people aren't very good programmers. Again, YMMV, and hopefully has! >> If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I >> hope it continues to. > It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot > of people use FreeMarker, you know. That's a pretty small sample size, but good :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dave Newton wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Yep. Guess what, though: inexperienced coders make more. Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all. Yeah, because closed-source commercial codebases are completely different from open-source codebases... No, they're not insofar as code is code. However, there are huge differences in the motivations and in the overall sociology or dynamics of the situation though. In the open-source case, nobody is working on some project that they find uninteresting because their boss assigned them to that. If you're not interested, you simply don't commit code, good or bad. People who volunteer to work on open source are the kinds of people who code for the joy of coding. In companies there are a lot of quite unmotivated people sort of going through the motions. Extrapolating the problems you've had in companies to an open source project is quite tenuous. Er... I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that point. I know _I_ don't have the time to review each and every patch that comes in to a repo. Well, are you suggesting that people should be donating code via the bug tracker or wherever and nobody is necessarily reviewing it? If the code has to be reviewed one way or the other, it is surely the same amount of work. I'm still not going to give commit access to anybody that asks for it because _I_ haven't found that it works well. I asked you before when you had actually tried this. I mean, in an open-source context. As I point out above, the company context is quite different. So I don't think you answered my question. If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I hope it continues to. It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot of people use FreeMarker, you know. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Michael Jouravlev wrote: On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to only happen after the code is updated. Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. Steve Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well, if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-) Or that there is a committer who actually looks at it... :-) Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different? Depends on the new bottle and the process used to transfer the wine. Yep; wine geek, too. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Steve Raeburn wrote: I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to only happen after the code is updated. The problem with that proposal is that it sounds like your current practice. The current practice has already been tested and not produced good results. You have fallen further and further behind other competing projects and that is why it became necessary to bring in Webwork (heretofore a competitor) so that you could have something reasonably up-to-date to offer people. To continue with the same practices and expect radically different results does not seem rational. It is encouraging that you seem to see that there is a problem and are making a proposal. However, I think your proposal would have to actually involve a change of some sort. The one I suggested was drastically lowering the barriers to letting people directly commit code to the repository. To many people, this sounds very radical. People have suggested that this would lead to all kinds of problems. However, that can be put to an empirical test. Given the failure of your current policies, it is not as if you have so much to lose. Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different? Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Steve Jonathan Revusky wrote: Dave Newton wrote: Dakota Jack wrote: I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted data"-a-thon). http://www.thedailywtf.com/ Today's is "the cost of static." I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all. I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that point. But another point about this is that having more people in the code could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the phenomenon of more eyeballs. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than some of the stories there (I hope :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that > absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that > we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we > require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced > developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers > will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to > only happen after the code is updated. > > Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. > > Steve Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well, if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to only happen after the code is updated. Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away. Steve Jonathan Revusky wrote: Dave Newton wrote: Dakota Jack wrote: I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted data"-a-thon). http://www.thedailywtf.com/ Today's is "the cost of static." I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all. I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that point. But another point about this is that having more people in the code could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the phenomenon of more eyeballs. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than some of the stories there (I hope :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how > this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative > model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. > People will make mistakes regardless. Yep. Guess what, though: inexperienced coders make more. > Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source > commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all. Yeah, because closed-source commercial codebases are completely different from open-source codebases... Er... > I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed > by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the > one described in that article would be caught at that point. I know _I_ don't have the time to review each and every patch that comes in to a repo. Heck, I barely have had time to deal with the commits from the relatively smaller number of developers I've dealt with on previous projects. That's one of the bugaboos with some open-source projects: they started, as they say, as a scratch, then got released. This means that not every project will have enough knowledgeable people available enough of the time to keep up with code quality issues. Of course it's not impossible, but it can be difficult sometimes. > But another point about this is that having more people in the code > could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the > phenomenon of more eyeballs. We agree on this, although it's definitely not a guarantee. Automated testing helps a lot, especially if ppl. run the tests on their own repos _before_ committing but I haven't found that this is always the case. It's gotten better over the years as testing tools have improved and build processes have become more automated and/or integrated into whichever dev environment they're using. I'm still not going to give commit access to anybody that asks for it because _I_ haven't found that it works well. If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I hope it continues to. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dave Newton wrote: Dakota Jack wrote: I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted data"-a-thon). http://www.thedailywtf.com/ Today's is "the cost of static." I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all. I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that point. But another point about this is that having more people in the code could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the phenomenon of more eyeballs. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than some of the stories there (I hope :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dakota Jack wrote: > I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? > This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted data"-a-thon). http://www.thedailywtf.com/ Today's is "the cost of static." Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than some of the stories there (I hope :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dakota Jack wrote: > I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? > Uh... you're saying you don't believe I've managed and/or worked on large projects at large companies? Or you're saying that you don't believe that I've had (occasionally _substantial_) issues with sub-standard coders having commit rights to said projects (which I would think is a no-brainer)? (Two good ones pop immediately to mind: why is the laser printer printing everything as a mirror image? Hint: it's not a printer setting, and it's somewhere in that 1.2 million lines of C and C++ code. Why does Beavis occasionally hover 8-16 pixels above the ground under certain pad inputs combined with one of two specific moving obstacles? That's somewhere in 16K of self-modifying Z80 assembly language. Ooo, how about trying to fix a 300-line lisp macro written by somebody else that really didn't know lisp? Or the completely undocumented 64K of 8051 assembly and C pump control system that wanted a pressure compensation algorithm but it was kind of hard to tell which of the multi-processors you needed to add the code to? Or the cereal boxer written in Forth that would occasionally (think 8-bit overflow) shoot cereal more or less everywhere?) NOT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE COMMIT ACCESS. Non-trivial things can happen when they do. Either way, why on EARTH would I give a shit what you think? I've been doing this for 20 years in essentially every major software field there is (and about 10 years non-professionally before that) and somehow I've managed not to alienate nearly every user of this list and still be a pretty good programmer. Somehow I manage to not threaten people with lawsuits if they call me a name. Tell me why I should care what you think, 'cuz I'm having problems with this one. And for those of you flooding me with "don't feed the troll" emails, I know... but now "Dakota Jack" is directly questioning my honesty and my history, which I do _not_ take kindly to. I am many, many things, not all good, but a person who does not speak the truth is not among those things. I spend most of my non-computer time in a dojo where them's fightin' words. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc? On 3/23/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jonathan Revusky wrote: > > I have no recollection of having wronged you in any specific way. > > You sprayed then, you spray now. No change. "They" told me not to feed > the trolls then, they tell me not to feed the trolls now. > > >> I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for > >> commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would > >> definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and > >> the project would be better off for it. > > How do you know for sure? Has this hypothesis ever been tested? > > Not on Struts, as I have essentially zero say on how it's run. > > But on other projects, yes: opening projects has, in my experience, led > to lower quality and/or too much overhead in keeping the quality high. > YMMV, of course, and hopefully other folks haven't had to deal with the > messes I have--and those were messes generally internal to a company > (albeit pretty large ones). > > Mind you I don't claim that having easier access to commit rights is a > bad idea; I just think it has to be monitored more closely than I've had > time to deal with in the past. > > Dave > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > I have no recollection of having wronged you in any specific way. You sprayed then, you spray now. No change. "They" told me not to feed the trolls then, they tell me not to feed the trolls now. >> I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for >> commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would >> definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and >> the project would be better off for it. > How do you know for sure? Has this hypothesis ever been tested? Not on Struts, as I have essentially zero say on how it's run. But on other projects, yes: opening projects has, in my experience, led to lower quality and/or too much overhead in keeping the quality high. YMMV, of course, and hopefully other folks haven't had to deal with the messes I have--and those were messes generally internal to a company (albeit pretty large ones). Mind you I don't claim that having easier access to commit rights is a bad idea; I just think it has to be monitored more closely than I've had time to deal with in the past. Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation)
I like your analogy, however I disagree with the following: > Core Struts people are moving to JSF/Shale ... That's not true for everyone. The whole reason Shale is not Struts 2.0 in the first place is that a majority of the Struts leadership decided that JSF should not be the future direction for Struts. Some people still have not bought into JSF and some probably never will. For me, I wish I had the time to mess around with JSF/shale, but that doesn't mean I am 'moving to JSF/Shale'. Several months ago I thought I was going to be working on a JSF project, but it turned out that we went with Struts 1.2.7 instead. -- James Mitchell EdgeTech, Inc. http://edgetechservices.net/ 678.910.8017 Skype: jmitchtx On Mar 23, 2006, at 4:54 PM, Michael Jouravlev wrote: On 3/23/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In order to be able to offer something reasonably state of the art, the Struts community is basically abandoning the Struts 1.x codebase and inviting the Webwork people in. The Webwork 2.2 codebase then gets rechristened "Struts Action Framework 2". But what has happened is definitely a failure of the Struts people to stay competitive technically. You like to write a lot, but you don't like to read. You don't find searching for answer yourself quite entertaining too. I will try again to explain the possible reason for Struts->WebWork move, as *I* see it: Core Struts people are moving to JSF/Shale, leaving the original Struts Classic niche up for grabs. This niche could (and still can) be taken by a "next best thing in action frameworks" whatever it may be, WebWork or Stripes or Spring MVC or something else. In this case the public perception would have been that Struts lost the battle. Struts guys made a smart move bringing WebWork in as Struts 2.0. The name is preserved and all that is related to the name is preserved too, not just software but people as well. This way Struts originators and committers retain their respectable status, while WebWork guys get the market: "I was a Struts committer once" - "Oh, cool! I've heard that version 2.0 will be really a leap forward". Very, very nice deal for all interested parties. Committers work on new interesting stuff, releaving themselves from boring 1.x maintenance. Six years, are you kidding? After all, they work on a new product now, so it will be beneficial for the community too. WebWork guys get the recognition, the market and the influence. Struts Action users get new version of the framework. Who cares that it was called WebWork before? Struts Classic needs/needed a serious makeover anyway, so why not to take others' code instead? Do you care that Pontiac GTO is actually a Holden Monaro, which is heavily based on Opel Omega? GM did not have anything like it anyway, they killed Camaro/Firebird because it was a farm tractor not a sports car. Bringing in GTO was an answer to public demand for a new muscle car. Was this a reasonable choice? Um, for "true" Camaro aficionados, maybe not. For them, Camaro will probably be revived in couple of years. But software is not exactly like automotive industry anyway. GM does not give away GTO for free. Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[NSC] taking this discussion somewhere else (was: has struts reached the saturation)
[NSC] = No Struts Content ... a tagging that I've seen used on other lists ( N?C ) where ? = initial of the lists name Emmanouil Batsis wrote: > Hello, > As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken > somewhere else, There have been a few similar calls for this. I already suggested taking it to this forum: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/struts-dev/ but the members of that list might violently resist the infusion of grit in their list. > but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this and many > other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed by the > visibility of the mailing list itself. and I too think that's perhaps why it is still here. perhaps the more enduring combatants want the discussion to *be* this publicly visible, rather than in a quiet corner of the E. I once even constructed a new userlist purely to house an OT flame war on a public list, and not one person shifted camp. The commentators notes were similar ... it was the notability of the list itself which kept the flamers from leaving the venue. (To all, not specifically Emmanouil) I think DJ has a credible point, HILODMWWASPE (hidden in lashings of decorative malice, which we all somehow perversely enjoy). Use your filters. And ignore threads (noobs: if you're not thread-keen, think "subject") that you *know* contain this debate. Go on! live a little! delete an email without reading it, based only on the subject or the sender!!! it's quite therapeutic. Microsoft Moose (NOT!) It's FRIDAY, have a bloody laugh for crying out loud! (er that's right, you TITS (There In The States) are half a spin of the earth behind The Clever Country, it's probably thursday night.):) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation)
On 3/23/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Michael Jouravlev wrote: > In the above you say you will "try again" to explain this. I have no > recollection that you ever tried to explain it to me before. It was in the other longer thread :) > > Core Struts people are moving to JSF/Shale, leaving the original > > Struts Classic niche up for grabs. > > Well, this means that nobody wants to work on the Struts 1.x codebase. > Why? I presume because it's considered to be technically obsolete. > > Why is the Struts 1.x codebase technically obsolete? Is GM's 3.8L pushrod technically obsolete? It is still used by GM and is loved by many. Do you remember Oldsmobile Intrigue, introduced in 1997, I think. It had 3800 pushrod first, then in about two years the engine was replaced with new shiny 3.5L 24-valve Shortstar. Where is Oldsmobile now? Where is Shortstar now? (hint: both discontinued). I do not defent Struts 1.x codebase, I just say that technical pros and cons sometimes matter less than cost to produce, cost to maintain and availability of repair shops. Oldsmobile clientelle was not ready for complex and expensive high-rpm DOHC engine. > One problem is that the whole thing seems to have intent to deceive > behind it. A casual observer will believe that Struts Action 2 is the > continuation of the Struts 1.x codebase and the work of the Struts > community. It is not. It is a codebase that was a competing product, > developed by a different community. Casual observers want software for free. > > Six years, are you kidding? After all, they > > work on a new product now, so it will be beneficial for the community > > too. WebWork guys get the recognition, the market and the influence. > > Struts Action users get new version of the framework. Who cares that > > it was called WebWork before? > > Well, what you're saying, Michael is basically: "Yeah, isn't this great > marketing?" Yeah, isn't it? I think it is. It's now or never. Because when people start to move to Java5 massively, they will look at simpler alternatives that use annotations and other new stuff. I still use JDK1.4, so these alternatives are not for me. > Maybe it is, but you're talking like a marketing guy, not an engineer. Maybe I should move forward then, to big-window office away from my cubicle :) > The intent behind this is to mislead people. Nah. The intent is to break away, keeping/repairing the good image of Struts and of what is related to Struts. > I see intent to deceive. And that does not set well with me. As long as you keep it for yourself to muse about, that's ok. Keep the pitchfork in the barn ;) Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation)
Michael Jouravlev wrote: On 3/23/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: In order to be able to offer something reasonably state of the art, the Struts community is basically abandoning the Struts 1.x codebase and inviting the Webwork people in. The Webwork 2.2 codebase then gets rechristened "Struts Action Framework 2". But what has happened is definitely a failure of the Struts people to stay competitive technically. You like to write a lot, but you don't like to read. You don't find searching for answer yourself quite entertaining too. I will try again to explain the possible reason for Struts->WebWork move, as *I* see it: In the above you say you will "try again" to explain this. I have no recollection that you ever tried to explain it to me before. In any case, I appreciate the explanation. Thank you. However, I have the honest impression that I understood all of this already by now. Core Struts people are moving to JSF/Shale, leaving the original Struts Classic niche up for grabs. Well, this means that nobody wants to work on the Struts 1.x codebase. Why? I presume because it's considered to be technically obsolete. Why is the Struts 1.x codebase technically obsolete? This niche could (and still can) be taken by a "next best thing in action frameworks" whatever it may be, WebWork or Stripes or Spring MVC or something else. In this case the public perception would have been that Struts lost the battle. Well, as far as I can see, that perception would be correct. There has been a failure to keep Struts up to date with the state of the art. That is what is behind the move of Webwork over here. Struts guys made a smart move bringing WebWork in as Struts 2.0. The name is preserved and all that is related to the name is preserved too, not just software but people as well. This way Struts originators and committers retain their respectable status, while WebWork guys get the market: "I was a Struts committer once" - "Oh, cool! I've heard that version 2.0 will be really a leap forward". Very, very nice deal for all interested parties. One problem is that the whole thing seems to have intent to deceive behind it. A casual observer will believe that Struts Action 2 is the continuation of the Struts 1.x codebase and the work of the Struts community. It is not. It is a codebase that was a competing product, developed by a different community. The whole thing is structured so as to create a maximum of confusion about what really happened. This is an objection that I lay out here: http://freemarker.blogspot.com/2006/03/musings-about-competition-ego-open.html Committers work on new interesting stuff, releaving themselves from boring 1.x maintenance. Well, maintaining 1.x is quite uninteresting because it has become technically obsolete, due to a failure to keep up with other things in the space, like Webwork. There seems to be a "beg the question" fallacy in what you're saying. Six years, are you kidding? After all, they work on a new product now, so it will be beneficial for the community too. WebWork guys get the recognition, the market and the influence. Struts Action users get new version of the framework. Who cares that it was called WebWork before? Well, what you're saying, Michael is basically: "Yeah, isn't this great marketing?" Maybe it is, but you're talking like a marketing guy, not an engineer. The intent behind this is to mislead people. The casual observer will think that this Webwork codebase is the continuation of Struts 1.x. Eventually, people will even point to Struts Action 2 (i.e. Webwork) as an example of how well "the Apache way" works. However, it is not an example of that. The whole thing is an example of a project that presumably followed the so-called Apache Way failng to stay competitive technically with another project that was developed outside ASF. I see intent to deceive. And that does not set well with me. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Struts Classic needs/needed a serious makeover anyway, so why not to take others' code instead? Do you care that Pontiac GTO is actually a Holden Monaro, which is heavily based on Opel Omega? GM did not have anything like it anyway, they killed Camaro/Firebird because it was a farm tractor not a sports car. Bringing in GTO was an answer to public demand for a new muscle car. Was this a reasonable choice? Um, for "true" Camaro aficionados, maybe not. For them, Camaro will probably be revived in couple of years. But software is not exactly like automotive industry anyway. GM does not give away GTO for free. Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Consequences of motor vehicle heresy (was Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation))
(caveat: it's a joke, i have no actual emotional investment in cars or any other childish "my X is better than yours" manifestation) Michael Jouravlev wrote: >Do you care that Pontiac GTO is actually a >Holden Monaro, which is heavily based on Opel Omega? > GODAM HERESY http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/jsp/chooseavehicle/popups/monarohistory/hk.jsp The Holden Monaro is a uniquely AUSTRALIAN piece of gear! We've been making V8's that ROCK since the 50's and if there's a single bolt on that device that isn't hand crafted at Fisherman's Bend, millions of Aussies will be burning their citizenship papers the next time Skaifey rolls the HRT onto the grid. http://www.hsv.com.au/racing/skaife.htm Most of Holden's other stock is badge engineered from OS, but NOT the Kingswood! er... sorry, NOT the Commodore, and especially NOT the Monaro! http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/action/vehicleentry?vehicleid=12 ;) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dave Newton wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: I already am spending too much time on this [...] Agreed. 2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here [...] My animosity towards you is from years ago, actually; I remember that vaguely, yes. Still feeling animosity over that, eh? You think I wronged you in some way then, I guess. What precisely is your grievance, Dave? I guess I could go look it up. I have no recollection of having wronged you in any specific way. But anyway, you brought it up. What precisely is your grievance against me from back when? I'm curious, and actually, I would imagine that other people reading this are mildly curious too. I won't speak for anybody else. Well, you seem to have learned your lesson on that then. :-) From whence From whence Is the Shakespearean festival nigh? Ooo! A zinger! Forsooth! It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question really I imagine that it is, for you... trying to imagine how an open-source project that was developed for somebody else's use might not be obligated to listen to anybody else. Well, maybe not. But if that is the case it would also seem to mean that all this stuff about "building community" that Ted Husted keeps pointing to is a bunch of empty posturing. It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the same thing. As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights. Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in. I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and the project would be better off for it. How do you know for sure? Has this hypothesis ever been tested? Even in the limited scope of this mailing list I have seen some pretty frightening code--I would _not_ want the authors of said code to be able to inject similar code into the project, and I would _not_ want to have to surf the repository regularly to remove or fix it. You don't have to regularly "surf" the repository. There is a disposition that all these projects use where people on the dev list get email notifications of commits. If you are a more established team member person who has kind of "taken ownership" of a certain part of the code and some new kid on the block commits some change there, you would tend to review it carefully. There is no need to be continually surfing the repository on a regular basis to check for whether bad code was committed meanwhile. You get these commit notifications and you can look through them. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very dark humor sort of way, you know. On this we are in perfect agreement :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Lord, Al, do you realize you have just concluded that it is impossible to fail to see what a product is or does from a website? This is not like you. Usually you make sense. But, this is right along the lines of a Newton (Dave) or a Mitchell (James). Oh, wait, it was Mitchell. LOL Sorry, Al. I thought you had lost your mind. On 3/23/06, Al Eridani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the > > product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO > > understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who > > doesn't. > > This is hilarious beyond words. More double-speak a la "we had to destroy > the village in order to save it" (US Government, circa 1970). > > > Do you see the difference? > > Frankly, no. The difference between what and what? > > But, wait... probably you also think that to be able to claim that one > cannot > see the difference one must actually DO see the difference... > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
The "bar" to committing on Struts is NOT the issue. The issue is the mess. I cannot agree more with Jonathan. It is s good to hear from someone who sounds mature and sensible. On 3/23/06, Dave Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jonathan Revusky wrote: > > I already am spending too much time on this [...] > > Agreed. > > > 2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here [...] > > My animosity towards you is from years ago, actually; I won't speak for > anybody else. > > > From whence From whence Is the Shakespearean festival nigh? > > Ooo! A zinger! Forsooth! > > > It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question > > really > > I imagine that it is, for you... trying to imagine how an open-source > project that was developed for somebody else's use might not be > obligated to listen to anybody else. > > >> It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to > >> pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the > >> same thing. > > As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights. > > Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length > > just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do > > some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in. > > I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for > commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would > definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and > the project would be better off for it. > > Even in the limited scope of this mailing list I have seen some pretty > frightening code--I would _not_ want the authors of said code to be able > to inject similar code into the project, and I would _not_ want to have > to surf the repository regularly to remove or fix it. > > > At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional > > scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very > > dark humor sort of way, you know. > > On this we are in perfect agreement :) > > Dave > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation)
On 3/23/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In order to be able to offer something > reasonably state of the art, the Struts community is basically > abandoning the Struts 1.x codebase and inviting the Webwork people in. > The Webwork 2.2 codebase then gets rechristened "Struts Action Framework > 2". But what has happened is definitely a failure of the Struts people > to stay competitive technically. You like to write a lot, but you don't like to read. You don't find searching for answer yourself quite entertaining too. I will try again to explain the possible reason for Struts->WebWork move, as *I* see it: Core Struts people are moving to JSF/Shale, leaving the original Struts Classic niche up for grabs. This niche could (and still can) be taken by a "next best thing in action frameworks" whatever it may be, WebWork or Stripes or Spring MVC or something else. In this case the public perception would have been that Struts lost the battle. Struts guys made a smart move bringing WebWork in as Struts 2.0. The name is preserved and all that is related to the name is preserved too, not just software but people as well. This way Struts originators and committers retain their respectable status, while WebWork guys get the market: "I was a Struts committer once" - "Oh, cool! I've heard that version 2.0 will be really a leap forward". Very, very nice deal for all interested parties. Committers work on new interesting stuff, releaving themselves from boring 1.x maintenance. Six years, are you kidding? After all, they work on a new product now, so it will be beneficial for the community too. WebWork guys get the recognition, the market and the influence. Struts Action users get new version of the framework. Who cares that it was called WebWork before? Struts Classic needs/needed a serious makeover anyway, so why not to take others' code instead? Do you care that Pontiac GTO is actually a Holden Monaro, which is heavily based on Opel Omega? GM did not have anything like it anyway, they killed Camaro/Firebird because it was a farm tractor not a sports car. Bringing in GTO was an answer to public demand for a new muscle car. Was this a reasonable choice? Um, for "true" Camaro aficionados, maybe not. For them, Camaro will probably be revived in couple of years. But software is not exactly like automotive industry anyway. GM does not give away GTO for free. Michael. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the > product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO > understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who > doesn't. This is hilarious beyond words. More double-speak a la "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" (US Government, circa 1970). > Do you see the difference? Frankly, no. The difference between what and what? But, wait... probably you also think that to be able to claim that one cannot see the difference one must actually DO see the difference... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > I already am spending too much time on this [...] Agreed. > 2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here [...] My animosity towards you is from years ago, actually; I won't speak for anybody else. > From whence From whence Is the Shakespearean festival nigh? Ooo! A zinger! Forsooth! > It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question > really I imagine that it is, for you... trying to imagine how an open-source project that was developed for somebody else's use might not be obligated to listen to anybody else. >> It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to >> pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the >> same thing. > As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights. > Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length > just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do > some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in. I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and the project would be better off for it. Even in the limited scope of this mailing list I have seen some pretty frightening code--I would _not_ want the authors of said code to be able to inject similar code into the project, and I would _not_ want to have to surf the repository regularly to remove or fix it. > At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional > scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very > dark humor sort of way, you know. On this we are in perfect agreement :) Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation)
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> Now we're leaving empiricism for speculation. > No, because the above propositions can, in principle, be put to an > empirical test. If it _hasn't_ been put to an empirical test then it's speculation. > Obviously, it is completely natural to wonder whether Struts 1.x > development would not be in a healthier state if it had been easier > for new people to get involved. Wondering is a natural human phenomenon. I assume you meant that it's natural to wonder if the dev _would_ be in a healthier state if it had been easier; I wonder both. We'll never know, though, will we. > When was your youth? I am in my early forties. Am I in my youth? O. I guess I would have thought you'd be further along by now, but we all progress at our own rate, and that's okay. > If you do something and fail, you have to humbly accept advice from > people. Says who? You sure like those absolutes, huh. > In an open source project, somebody who thinks he can pitch in and > contribute should have a chance to do so. Even in Apache, they have a chance to do so. Doesn't mean it'll happen, though. > That is why, yes, this closed club stuff deeply offends me on some level. Maybe some counseling would be in order. > [...] members of the Struts PMC do not behave like seasoned adults. I like seasoned adults, but with more paprika than most prefer. > Obviously, if somebody gives you feedback on your work, you thank them > and consider it. (Or at least say you'll consider it...) Hey, I think FreeMarker sucks. You're welcome? Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Dave Newton wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: As regards insults, there is a difference of perspective here. My own feeling is that in all of my posts I have exercised a great degree of self-restraint. Unless you count being able to state your view concisely. There are 2 basic reasons that my messages tend to be longer than they might be otherwise. 1. It's actually more time consuming to write a shorter message. At least if the message is to make the same points. I already am spending too much time on this, so I am not going to spend 2 or 3 times as much time to edit down the messages. 2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here and if I leave any gap for somebody sink their teeth into, they will. So I build up my arguments in a more painstaking, detailed way than I would otherwise. [...] people literally claim that the managers of the project do not have to listen to criticism. They don't! Perhaps they _should_ (and, quite frankly, I believe they _do_, but I don't expect them to _act_ on it). I still do not understand from whence this obligation comes. From whence From whence Is the Shakespearean festival nigh? Oh, you mean you don't understand where this obligation comes from. I read this and it just blows me away. I guess you have a point of sorts. Nobody explicitly mentions an obligation to behave according to the dictates of common sense. Suppose the PMC decided that their goal was actually to make Struts worse -- instead of eliminating bugs, to introduce new ones. You could similarly ask "from whence the obligation comes" to try to make the software better rather than worse. But nobody has a conversatin about that because it's just crazy, right? Everybody just figures that if you have an ongoing development effort, it is to make the thing better, not worse. For example, I bet that none of the "How ASF works" sorts of pages that Ted Husted might point you to bother to explicitly say that the point of ongoing development is to make the product better rather than worse. It's just a given. Similarly, all this stuff on the apache.org pages about community, that development is "community-based" or whatever. Well what does that mean, for people not to listen to one another? I mean, aren't there things that one just takes as a given? It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question really I strongly believe that a guiding principle the basic idea of open source is that if someone is willing and able to pitch in, they should have the chance to do so. It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the same thing. As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights. Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in. Jonathan only arrived in this community part way through this thread, hopefully he'll get bored and leave soon. Well, the truth is that hanging around here is not a very enriching experience. So... um... why are you still here? At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very dark humor sort of way, you know. Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/ Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jonathan Revusky wrote: George Dinwiddie wrote: Scott Adams has made his fortune displaying the cynical view of managers that you describe. Indeed, from the point of view of the technical staff or others with limited access to those managers, it often looks like decisions are being made very arbitrarily. In some cases, they actually are. Incompetent managers are probably as common as incompetent developers. In reality, most managers do have a brain and use it. Most managers are not merely trying to avoid drawing attention to themselves so they can draw a salary for doing no work. Believe it or not, most managers take their jobs seriously and make the best decisions they can given the knowledge they have and the circumstances in which they make them. By "knowledge they have" I don't mean technical ignorance. Sure, some are quite ignorant technically and most do not have the detailed technical knowledge of a developer, but they also have knowledge of non-technical issues of which most developers are rather ignorant. The question under discussion is whether managers who opt for Struts have, typically, much notion of the process by which this software was developed. Based on what experience I have of interacting with corporate type people, my bet is that usually they don't. In some cases, maybe they do, but that would be a comparative rarity. That is why I don't easily believe that if Struts were to adopt a more open approach to letting people commit code that it would affect corporate adoption that much, simply because the corporate people, by and large, do not know that much about how open source software really is developed. You yourself seem to be operating under various misconceptions in this regard. You have, from what I see, a misplaced confidence in the procedures that allowed the current committers to actually become committers. I get the feeling that you don't have a sense of just how arbitrary the whole thing is. Anyway, supposing for the sake of argument that what you believe is true, then this leads to another basic question. Would such a belief be well founded? (I mean the belief that it would somehow become riskier to use Struts, say, if the barriers to becoming a committer were drastically lowered.) Now we're leaving empiricism for speculation. No, because the above propositions can, in principle, be put to an empirical test. The one thing that's clear is that technical progress on Struts ground to a halt and they were superseded technically by Webwork, which was not developed at ASF. So, what is not speculative at all, is that the development process did not have very good results. In order to be able to offer something reasonably state of the art, the Struts community is basically abandoning the Struts 1.x codebase and inviting the Webwork people in. The Webwork 2.2 codebase then gets rechristened "Struts Action Framework 2". But what has happened is definitely a failure of the Struts people to stay competitive technically. Meanwhile, in my following of this discussion, it is clear that there are people who were able and eager to pitch in and work on the code, who, due to this process, were unable to. Obviously, it is completely natural to wonder whether Struts 1.x development would not be in a healthier state if it had been easier for new people to get involved. This is actually the question that interests me. If people believe this but it's not true, then well... you know, should one condition one's behavior based on other people's misguided beliefs? Or actually, in this case, the misguided beliefs you are speculating that certain other people may hold... You've extrapolated several suppositions, here. Who says their beliefs are misguided? Reread it carefully, Geoge. I didn't say that they were definitely misguided. I just said they might be. "If people believe this but it's not true, should one condition one's behavior on people's misguided beliefs?" It was the first part of a conditional. You didn't quite grasp that, it seems. I presume from these statements that you're rather young. In my youth, I tended to believe that those who didn't agree with my beliefs were misguided. And I was not shy of telling them so. When was your youth? I am in my early forties. Am I in my youth? But even supposing that I am right and they are wrong (and I no longer believe that these are boolean values), I am unlikely to convince them by announcing that they're all wrong. They will naturally think, "On the one hand, I have this kid without the experience to understand the issues which I'm balancing telling me that I'm wrong. Well, in this exact case, you're unlikely to convince them of anything. These are people who simply don't listen. Could this possibly be lost on you at this point, George? :-) Really... On the other hand, my view of the world and the way it works ha
RE: Re: Consequences of open commit privileges (was: has struts reached the saturation)
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > George Dinwiddie wrote: > > There are many companies using Struts for far > > more important things than simple websites. I believe that many of > > these companies would be unwilling to trust Struts for > > these uses if > > the project were to greatly open up the commit privileges. > > You really believe that, huh? I don't know. I am very skeptical about > this because I just find it hard to believe that... well... certain > kinds of pointy-head managers who insist on using Struts or > some other > well known thing have very clear ideas about the processes by which > these software products were actually developed. I see a lot > of it is a > herd mentality, essentially. "Everybody else is using this > thing so it's > the 'safe choice'." (i.e. "Nobody can fire my ass for recommending > Oracle, say, because everybody else is using Oracle, but if I > recommend > that we use Acme RDBMS, that nobody has heard of, my ass is on the > line") > > OTOH, maybe what you say is true. I can only speculate about > the basis > on which other people make decisions. I presume that you've never worked in a corporate environment. Proceeding on that assumption, let me explain a little to you. Scott Adams has made his fortune displaying the cynical view of managers that you describe. Indeed, from the point of view of the technical staff or others with limited access to those managers, it often looks like decisions are being made very arbitrarily. In some cases, they actually are. Incompetent managers are probably as common as incompetent developers. In reality, most managers do have a brain and use it. Most managers are not merely trying to avoid drawing attention to themselves so they can draw a salary for doing no work. Believe it or not, most managers take their jobs seriously and make the best decisions they can given the knowledge they have and the circumstances in which they make them. By "knowledge they have" I don't mean technical ignorance. Sure, some are quite ignorant technically and most do not have the detailed technical knowledge of a developer, but they also have knowledge of non-technical issues of which most developers are rather ignorant. > Anyway, supposing for the sake of argument that what you believe is > true, then this leads to another basic question. > > Would such a belief be well founded? (I mean the belief that it would > somehow become riskier to use Struts, say, if the barriers to > becoming a > committer were drastically lowered.) Now we're leaving empiricism for speculation. > This is actually the question that interests me. If people > believe this > but it's not true, then well... you know, should one > condition one's > behavior based on other people's misguided beliefs? Or > actually, in this > case, the misguided beliefs you are speculating that certain other > people may hold... You've extrapolated several suppositions, here. Who says their beliefs are misguided? I presume from these statements that you're rather young. In my youth, I tended to believe that those who didn't agree with my beliefs were misguided. And I was not shy of telling them so. But even supposing that I am right and they are wrong (and I no longer believe that these are boolean values), I am unlikely to convince them by announcing that they're all wrong. They will naturally think, "On the one hand, I have this kid without the experience to understand the issues which I'm balancing telling me that I'm wrong. On the other hand, my view of the world and the way it works has done pretty well for me so far." Do you doubt everything you've learned when someone walks up and says you're wrong? I thought not. Is your lack of success in convincing someone that they're wrong their problem or yours? Do you want to do something about that lack of success? Or do you like that status quo? If you like futile arguments, then you seem to be doing a fine job on your own. But if you want to argue more effectively, then I can suggest the AYE Conference (http://www.ayeconference.com/conference.html). And if you can't find the time or money to attend, there's still lots of good information in the blogs and articles of the people who put on that conference--more than you could assimilate in a lifetime. > Well, what I see is that there are people here (not just me) > seriously > questioning whether the so-called "Apache Way" is really all it's > cracked up to be. In response, you have people saying: "This > is how the > Apache Way works" or simply pointing to some document > somewhere in the > same way that a religious fundamentalist would quote scripture. Do you want to contribute to Struts and feel excluded? Or are you morally indignant based on higher principles? I can't figure this out. As for the technology, and the rules of running the project, in both cases I'm glad that the wide world provides more than one choice. I'm glad t
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
On 3/23/06, Emmanouil Batsis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello, > > As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken > somewhere else, but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this > and many other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed > by the visibility of the mailing list itself. > > Anyway, just wanted to say the noise in some threads makes it impossible > to filter the actual info in them. I think thats where the value of the > thread largely degrades making it useless (well, for me at least). > > Manos +1. I encourage anybody to email me privately, or with a list of cc's, for further discussion. I think I've made my point as a non-Struts committer at the ASF that there is an awareness of the community issues and that Struts are doing every right currently. I encourage Jonathan or anybody else to start a constructive thread on improving the Struts message on the website. But now we've passed 100 threads on a user list, it's probably time to let it die. Take your replies off-list and sort out differences there. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Sometimes I wonder if you are just not working on too little horsepower, James. Do you really, no kidding, honestly, think Jonathan was talking about a business model here? If so, I apologize for arguing with you. If not, try to be more genuine and to reply to what people are saying versus these straw men you make up in your own mind. On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > "Moreover, the fact that Struts was unable to stay competitive with > Webwork even given the huge advantages you should have in terms of > attracting collaborators, this seems to suggest that your model did not > work very well." > > What model is that? You base your "opinion in good faith" on unfounded > principals. The Apache way is not based on business models. Apache is > NOT > in the business of competing with anyone. Why do you (and others) keep > suggesting different? -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
When someone is telling you that you are going in the wrong direction, a good answer is not "Help me go faster". On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere > in > >> bugzilla. Can you point me to it? > > > > James, I understand that this is some kind of attempt at sarcasm. The > > problem is that you're obviously not really thinking about what you're > > saying. > > Oh, maybe you are right. What I really meant to say is "put up or shut > up". > The only excuse for not helping is not knowing how or not having > time. And > we have the "how" covered under the FAQ link, and since you are obviously > a > very successful part of Freemarker, I doubt this fits you. So, again, why > have you not offerred to help explain things better? Did you just come > here > to complain? > > Trust me, your complaints do not affect the compensation I get from the > ASF. > I am richly rewarded for my contributions. In fact, I still get dividends > from time to time. Just the other day I got an email from someone > thanking > me for helping with a particularly difficult issue they had struggled with > until Google landed them on a response I had made a few months back, which > helped them get to a solution much faster than they would have on their > own. > That's my currency. > > > > Let's try to deconstruct what you're saying implicitly: > > > > A potential user hits your website and cannot, on the basis of the text > > there, understand what the product is or does. > > I see, so you speak for EVERYONE now, correct? > > > You seem to be suggesting that this very same individual should offer a > > patch to fix this issue. > > That's not what I said. > > You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the > product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO > understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who > doesn't. Do you see the difference? > > Furthermore, for you to even suggest that this is confusing means that you > actually do care about what people think about Struts. Am I wrong? If > not, > then why have you only offerred criticism and not a patch? > > > > > Or in other words: > > > > The "bug" that a person reports is that the text on a website is > basically > > incomprehensible. He doesn't understand what you're talking about. So he > > offers a patch so that *HE* now will understand WTF *YOU* are talking > > about. > > See above explanation. > > > > > Do you see the basis for Monty Python skit here? > > To use your own words, "Well, yeah... blah blah". > > > > > Look, James, obviously it is up to the Struts people to explain clearly > > what their product is. > > No, it isn't. As Ted and others have explain NUMEROUS times in the past. > We are here to scratch an itch! We are here to build the software > that > WE want to use for OUR projects. It just so happens that a few of us > spend > some extra time on documentation. We are NOT obligated to do so. If I'm > wrong, then I must have missed that section in the ASF guidelines or > bylaws. > > Maybe if we were JBoss Inc. or Spring21 we might have paid staff to keep > the > docs all prettified and such. > > > > > Henri asked me specifically to say what my criticism of the website was > > and I answered the question. I just said that you have to reconsider the > > audience that the site is oriented towards. > > Aha, see, you do care. > > > > > Do you think I'm wrong about this? > > > > Whether you do or not, should people who offer their opinion in good > faith > > ... > > LMAO! Is that what you call it? > > > ... be subjected to this kind of lame, moronic sarcasm? To me, this just > > doesn't seem like adult behavior. > > I see, well, among the more moronic things I've seen you say here more > than > once include: > "Moreover, the fact that Struts was unable to stay competitive with > Webwork even given the huge advantages you should have in terms of > attracting collaborators, this seems to suggest that your model did not > work very well." > > What model is that? You base your "opinion in good faith" on unfounded > principals. The Apache way is not based on business models. Apache is > NOT > in the business of competing with anyone. Why do you (and others) keep > suggesting different? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > -- > > lead developer, FreeMarker project > > Even your signature block shows that you don't "get it". Why do you claim > "lead developer"? Does that make you better than all of the others? Or > more important somehow? When is the last time Craig put "lead developer" > in > his signature block? Why doesn't Martin put "PMC Chair" under his name? > > Some people have misgivings about some kind of perceived power that comes > with committership. As if the larger the project, the more power or > influence. The real champions at Apache, or "lead developers" as you > m
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Try using a good browser. I am not willing to change my life to suit your apparent inability to handle email. On 3/23/06, Emmanouil Batsis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hello, > > As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken > somewhere else, but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this > and many other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed > by the visibility of the mailing list itself. > > Anyway, just wanted to say the noise in some threads makes it impossible > to filter the actual info in them. I think thats where the value of the > thread largely degrades making it useless (well, for me at least). > > Manos > > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back." ~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Lord, Mitchell, he said the problem was not the website. Do you just take jabs or do you every actually come up with a position and defend it? On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere in > bugzilla. Can you point me to it? > > -- > James Mitchell > Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist > Consulting / Mentoring > 678.910.8017 > > - Original Message - > From: "Jonathan Revusky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:29 AM > Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation > > > > Henri Yandell wrote: > >> On 3/22/06, Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>>Henri Yandell wrote: > >>> > >>>>foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to > >>>>a codebase. > >>> > >>>Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not > >>>active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite > >>>frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.orgproject, > >>>to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment. > >>>ยด > >>>FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or > whatever > >>>ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code. > >>> > >>>In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able > >>>to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a > >>>problem with Struts currently. > >> > >> > >> So that's a website issue ie) how to join/find the community rather > >> than an issue in how the community itself is structured. > >> > >> Do you have suggestions to improve the Struts website so that things > >> are more clear? There's not a website at the ASF that couldn't be made > >> a bit clearer. > > > > Well, just go to http://struts.apache.org/ and look at it and imagine > that > > you don't know anything about what struts is. I put it to you that the > > reader who hits your front page should not be supposed to know what the > > thing is. > > > > What is strange about it is that whoever wrote the page tacitly > recognizes > > that it is a confused jumble and spends most of the page trying to > > rationalize it. "Why two frameworks?" followed by "Why so many > > subprojects?" What is also patently obvious is that the two rhetorical > > questions are posed on the page, and never, AFAICS, answered > > satisfactorily. > > > > And then the text there just assumes all kinds of insider knowledge that > > the reader of the front page really IMHO should not be assumed to know. > > > > Now, you can go look at the page, Henri, and maybe you think it's okay. > If > > you do think the whole thing is really A-OK, then we have a difference > of > > opinion. Here is the basis of it: > > > > Who is the intended audience for this text? > > > > I guess we have different answers for that. > > > > (I could almost characterize it as that the author's intended audience > in > > "Why two frameworks?" and so on is himself!) > > > > I don't think this is a problem of website organization. The website > > problem _reflects_ a deeper problem. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jonathan Revusky > > -- > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ > > > >> > >> > >>>>So: > >>>> > >>>>If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same > >>>>community - > >>> > >>>Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a > >>>Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts > >>>Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a > >>>completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and > >>>that's a completely separate team at the moment. > >> > >> > >> Right, so two communities merging. This is all good - it's probably > >> natural that you'll see the old hands maintaining the 1.2/1.3 releases > >> instead of the Webwork guys, but who knows. Plus there will be new > >> committers, maybe some who just focus on 1.3 because the community > >> wants to keep it alive. > >> > >> &
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere in bugzilla. Can you point me to it? James, I understand that this is some kind of attempt at sarcasm. The problem is that you're obviously not really thinking about what you're saying. Oh, maybe you are right. What I really meant to say is "put up or shut up". The only excuse for not helping is not knowing how or not having time. And we have the "how" covered under the FAQ link, and since you are obviously a very successful part of Freemarker, I doubt this fits you. So, again, why have you not offerred to help explain things better? Did you just come here to complain? Trust me, your complaints do not affect the compensation I get from the ASF. I am richly rewarded for my contributions. In fact, I still get dividends from time to time. Just the other day I got an email from someone thanking me for helping with a particularly difficult issue they had struggled with until Google landed them on a response I had made a few months back, which helped them get to a solution much faster than they would have on their own. That's my currency. Let's try to deconstruct what you're saying implicitly: A potential user hits your website and cannot, on the basis of the text there, understand what the product is or does. I see, so you speak for EVERYONE now, correct? You seem to be suggesting that this very same individual should offer a patch to fix this issue. That's not what I said. You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who doesn't. Do you see the difference? Furthermore, for you to even suggest that this is confusing means that you actually do care about what people think about Struts. Am I wrong? If not, then why have you only offerred criticism and not a patch? Or in other words: The "bug" that a person reports is that the text on a website is basically incomprehensible. He doesn't understand what you're talking about. So he offers a patch so that *HE* now will understand WTF *YOU* are talking about. See above explanation. Do you see the basis for Monty Python skit here? To use your own words, "Well, yeah... blah blah". Look, James, obviously it is up to the Struts people to explain clearly what their product is. No, it isn't. As Ted and others have explain NUMEROUS times in the past. We are here to scratch an itch! We are here to build the software that WE want to use for OUR projects. It just so happens that a few of us spend some extra time on documentation. We are NOT obligated to do so. If I'm wrong, then I must have missed that section in the ASF guidelines or bylaws. Maybe if we were JBoss Inc. or Spring21 we might have paid staff to keep the docs all prettified and such. Henri asked me specifically to say what my criticism of the website was and I answered the question. I just said that you have to reconsider the audience that the site is oriented towards. Aha, see, you do care. Do you think I'm wrong about this? Whether you do or not, should people who offer their opinion in good faith ... LMAO! Is that what you call it? ... be subjected to this kind of lame, moronic sarcasm? To me, this just doesn't seem like adult behavior. I see, well, among the more moronic things I've seen you say here more than once include: "Moreover, the fact that Struts was unable to stay competitive with Webwork even given the huge advantages you should have in terms of attracting collaborators, this seems to suggest that your model did not work very well." What model is that? You base your "opinion in good faith" on unfounded principals. The Apache way is not based on business models. Apache is NOT in the business of competing with anyone. Why do you (and others) keep suggesting different? Regards, Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project Even your signature block shows that you don't "get it". Why do you claim "lead developer"? Does that make you better than all of the others? Or more important somehow? When is the last time Craig put "lead developer" in his signature block? Why doesn't Martin put "PMC Chair" under his name? Some people have misgivings about some kind of perceived power that comes with committership. As if the larger the project, the more power or influence. The real champions at Apache, or "lead developers" as you might put it, have earned the respect of others by helping out where it counts, not counting who has written more lines of code. And just to make it clear, when I say "champions", I'm NOT talking about committers. I'm NOT drawing a line down the middle of the page separating committers and non-committers as Dakota continues to claim. The Struts community is alive and well and will continue to thrive under our
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: > As regards insults, there is a difference of perspective here. My own > feeling is that in all of my posts I have exercised a great degree of > self-restraint. Unless you count being able to state your view concisely. > [...] people literally claim that the managers of the project do not > have to listen to criticism. They don't! Perhaps they _should_ (and, quite frankly, I believe they _do_, but I don't expect them to _act_ on it). I still do not understand from whence this obligation comes. > I strongly believe that a guiding principle the basic idea of open > source is that if someone is willing and able to pitch in, they should > have the chance to do so. It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the same thing. >> Jonathan only arrived in this community part way through this thread, >> hopefully he'll get bored and leave soon. > Well, the truth is that hanging around here is not a very enriching > experience. So... um... why are you still here? Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Hello, As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken somewhere else, but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this and many other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed by the visibility of the mailing list itself. Anyway, just wanted to say the noise in some threads makes it impossible to filter the actual info in them. I think thats where the value of the thread largely degrades making it useless (well, for me at least). Manos - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
