andy_c;698824 Wrote:
Their Clever Little Clock was given a
'_\\Brutus_Award\\_by_Positive_Feedback_Online_'
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/brutus.htm). The award was
given by none other than Dave Clark, the guy who coined the danceable
cables expression in reference to the
Wasn't the Clever Little Clock review a parody? It gets increasingly
hard to tell the difference.
--
tufty
tufty's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=47700
View this thread:
tufty;698897 Wrote:
Wasn't the Clever Little Clock review a parody? It gets increasingly
hard to tell the difference.
Perhaps the TAS Computer Music series was also meant to be a parody.
That would go a long way in explaining some of their errant claims.
Unfortunately I do not think that is
Geoff Kait makes BlackBody look like Wittgenstein
http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm
--
TheOctavist
VortexboxSBT(stock)Forssell MDAC-2Klein and Hummell 0300D
Sota Sapphire/Lyra KleosBespoke Valve Phono StageMastersound Due
VentiLink Audio K100
Their Clever Little Clock was given a
'_Brutus_Award_by_Positive_Feedback_Online_'
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/brutus.htm). The award was
given by none other than Dave Clark, the guy who coined the danceable
cables expression in reference to the infamous Pear Cables :).
--
andy_c;698824 Wrote:
Their Clever Little Clock was given a
'_\\Brutus_Award\\_by_Positive_Feedback_Online_'
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue28/brutus.htm). The award was
given by none other than Dave Clark, the guy who coined the danceable
cables expression in reference to the
Owen Smith;698251 Wrote:
I've been having that argument over on AVForums in the Oppo 95 EU forum.
Apparently dbpoweramp sucks and EAC is much better, even if they both
report accurate rip and produce identical files the EAC one will sound
*SOOO* much better and I must be insane to be using
garym;698306 Wrote:
yep, pure insanity. I hate those sort of forums where myths become
truth. The inmates are in charge of the asylum and sane folks are
treated as crazy. Unfortunately, some of that is creeping in around
here...
The moderators don't want to do anything about it, so the way
Soulkeeper;698308 Wrote:
... Other than that, it seems we'll just have to let them flop around in
their magic wonderland of objective subjectivity (or was it the other
way around), on this forum too. You can lead a brain to thought, but
you can't make it think.
The catch is with 7 billion
Me, I'm saving up to buy a few $500/m USB cables... :-)
eric
--
EricBergan
EricBergan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4746
View this thread:
Ok, PM me when you've got the money. I've got some nylon hose from an
old PSU, and some copper tape leftovers after shielding my Telecaster.
I reckon I can use all that (and some gaffa tape) to make any old set
of USB cables look just terrific. And very, very audiophile-y.
I'll even sell the
garym;698306 Wrote:
yep, pure insanity. I hate those sort of forums where myths become
truth. The inmates are in charge of the asylum and sane folks are
treated as crazy. Unfortunately, some of that is creeping in around
here...
I think that's in direct proportion to Logitech's future
DaveWr;698339 Wrote:
I think that's in direct proportion to Logitech's future direction, new
players, TVs or whatever. Mindgames expand to fill the dreadful
silence. It's the ultimate signal to noise ratio!
Dave
Logitech have a future direction for the Squeezebox? Can't say I'd
noticed.
Owen Smith;698342 Wrote:
Logitech have a future direction for the Squeezebox? Can't say I'd
noticed.
he didn't actually reference Squeezebox in terms of logitech's future.
But that's a different thread
--
garym
*Location 1:* VB Appliance 6TB (1.10) LMS 7.7.1 Transporter, Touch,
Mnyb;689974 Wrote:
In that whole series I find their finding that perfect digital copies of
files sound different the most insane .
I've been having that argument over on AVForums in the Oppo 95 EU
forum. Apparently dbpoweramp sucks and EAC is much better, even if they
both report accurate
Phil Leigh;694006 Wrote:
I particularly enjoyed this priceless gem of 6moons hyperbollox...
... no longer felt assaulted from this powerful computer's radiations
with its Blutooth mouse and keyboard. Whether this meant wholesale
elimination of its emissions
Wonder if that means the
Ok, I wasn't a big believer in the TAS sell them anything conspiracy
theory. But just got #222. There were two letters to the editor printed
about the four part story, but both asking for advice on whether they
should re-rip their FLAC files.
So no questions published about Dr Charles Zellig and
EricBergan;694200 Wrote:
Ok, I wasn't a big believer in the TAS sell them anything conspiracy
theory. But just got #222. There were two letters to the editor printed
about the four part story, but both asking for advice on whether they
should re-rip their FLAC files.
So no questions
paul.raulerson;693884 Wrote:
Whoa - who said I was making a case?
Semantics. You ARE making a claim, aren't you?
The point is that if you allow your ears to mislead you into thinking
that rips made with different power supplies sound different, then
providing those rips are bit identical,
ralphpnj;693842 Wrote:
1) I ripped a track from a CD into a wav file.
2) I converted that wav file to a flac file.
3) I uploaded this flac file to a newsgroup which means that the flac
file was converted into a yEnc file (a yEnc encoder converts binary
data, like the data (not
Guys,
I think the tone of some of these posts is harsh on Paul. It seems to
me some frustration about other members or posts is being transferred
to Paul.
I agree about the emailed audio files. This is why an understanding of
how computers work is necessary. Those who understand, know there is
darrenyeats;693915 Wrote:
I think the tone of some of these posts is harsh on Paul. It seems to me
some frustration about other members or posts is being transferred to
Paul.
paul.raulerson;693884 Wrote:
I wasn't ready to dismiss it as swamp gas, because there is a
possibility that
darrell;693935 Wrote:
Such a cable is still a fraud, because the engineering claims made are
lies, even if the end result is a perception of improved sound in the
mind of the user.
.
Yeah but it wont last over time, hence you are in the upgrade
spiral
What can be mildly irritating
andy_c;693862 Wrote:
uuencode and base64 sound waaay better than yEnc. :D
Not when the music is jazz. yEnc for jazz, uuencode for rock and
popular and base64 for classical.
Mnyb;693864 Wrote:
Which font was used on the newsgroup any serifs would add a peculiar
edge on stuff :D
Serifs
darrenyeats;693915 Wrote:
guys,
i think the tone of some of these posts is harsh on paul. It seems to
me some frustration about other members or posts is being transferred
to paul.
I agree about the emailed audio files anecdote. This is why an
understanding of how computers work is
darrenyeats;693915 Wrote:
Guys,
I think the tone of some of these posts is harsh on Paul. It seems to
me some frustration about other members or posts is being transferred
to Paul.
I agree with this. I disagree with Paul. However, unlike item_audio,
magiccarpetride, or ncarver, he didn't
Mnyb;693940 Wrote:
In the meantime have a blackbody :)
http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html
Wow. That is the most impressive professional looking bullshit I've
ever seen. They really have perfected the art of selling snake oil.
--
andynormancx
Yes, it will. Yes, all of them.
andynormancx;693990 Wrote:
Wow. That is the most impressive professional looking bullshit I've ever
seen. They really have perfected the art of selling snake oil.
Yes, that is _exactly_ the kind of thing that makes the word
audiophile an embarrassment.
--
totoro
sb touch - classdaudio
andynormancx;693990 Wrote:
Wow. That is the most impressive professional looking bullshit I've ever
seen. They really have perfected the art of selling snake oil.
The same comment with one minor change could also be used to describe
the TAS Computer Music series:
Wow. That is the most
For a good freakshow note all the weird adds on both avguide (TAS and
hifi+) and stereophiles home pages .
Also lesslos that does the blackbox have some computer audio stuff too
hence a tangent with the topic of fud in computer audio but I simply
did not get further than the blackbox :)
Sorry
ralphpnj;693992 Wrote:
The same comment with one minor change could also be used to describe
the TAS Computer Music series:
Wow. That is the most impressive professional looking bullshit I've
ever seen. They really have perfected the art of PUBLISHING snake oil.
Very true.
--
Mnyb;693940 Wrote:
Yeah but it wont last over time, hence you are in the upgrade spiral
What can be mildly irritating as that no one reads the tread it is like
a Relay race the next audiofool comes along and pose the same already
answered and done questions without any apparent
One mechanism of the human mind is bit of a mystery to me , but of no
mystery to snake oilers.
Where to these jokers writing in TAS authority come from ? Why are
anyone believing these fools over more sane authorities ? they have
found a working concept of playing on our wishful thinking in some
Mnyb;694010 Wrote:
You can not know or understand everything in detail yourself if you have
a legal question you go to a layer if you have question about your
pension you talk to your banker so we have to make a shortcut and
select authorities we believe in in certain questions but why on
paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote:
Well, not to belabor the point either, but of course it does. If one
program is a memory player and one is not, it can make all the
difference in the world.
The programs we are talking about are rippers. If two rippers (of the
standard sort that the TAS people
paul.raulerson;693720 Wrote:
snip
As for a large number of people, well, where there is smoke, you can
bet some form of combustion is happening. The reasons or explanations
the give are probably less than accurate, but that something is
happening is probably pretty likely. Again,
totoro;693725 Wrote:
People once believed the earth revolved around the sun.
Have we stopped believing this now? Wow, you stop paying attention for
5 minutes...
(Sorry - I agreed with every other word of your post :))
--
chill
totoro;693725 Wrote:
The programs we are talking about are rippers. If two rippers (of the
standard sort that the TAS people are talking about, that used standard
library functions to write data to disc) write out bit-identical files,
if there are any differences at all due to the location
I've mentioned this book in the past, but a very readable tome on the
subject of human perception is Dr. Cordelia Fine's A Mind of Its Own:
How Your Brain Distorts Deceives.
Expectation bias is far too limited a term as it implies we can only
be fooled by what we already expect. Things are far
paul.raulerson: Wrote:
I have been told I have been brainwashed by a cult. :)
No, it means you're human. Surprise!
I read your explanation of your home tests and the confidence you
derived from them. That's a great way to make a personal decision
regarding the equipment and accessories you
I think we are in danger of losing the plot of this thread here (if it
ever had one?).
Let's seperate 3 things:
1) The TAS article, in particular its claims about wav-flac conversion
being an irreversible, detrimental process. This is what I'm railing
against when I attack them. It is just a
Agree Phil, except the Linn comment is wrong their DS products are
structurally identical to Squeezethings, all are networked players,
indeed ethernet only!
--
DaveWr
DaveWr's Profile:
DaveWr;693772 Wrote:
Agree Phil, except the Linn comment is wrong their DS products are
structurally identical to Squeezethings, all are networked players,
indeed ethernet only!
Yes - I was thinking about the earlier machines (like the Kivor -
remember those?) - not the modern (DS) ones
Sorry, forgot about the Kivor, similarly the Cyrus systems. Never saw
the point of the all-in-one. As you described difficulties of computer
systems affecting audio, and why put quickly obsolete storage stuff in
with relatively stable network and audio technology.
--
DaveWr
DaveWr;693780 Wrote:
Sorry, forgot about the Kivor, similarly the Cyrus systems. Never saw
the point of the all-in-one. As you described difficulties of computer
systems affecting audio, and why put quickly obsolete storage stuff in
with relatively stable network and audio technology.
chill;693738 Wrote:
Have we stopped believing this now? Wow, you stop paying attention for
5 minutes...
(Sorry - I agreed with every other word of your post :))
Got me. :) It was late, I somehow switched earth and sun. Sorry about
that, I do this kind of switcheroo in code
paul.raulerson;693754 Wrote:
Perhaps. However, in this thread, just by saying I can hear a
difference in two USB cables between a particular machine and a
particular DAC, I have been told I have been brainwashed by a cult. :)
Not by me, as I hope you noticed :).
--
totoro
sb touch
paul.raulerson;693754 Wrote:
Here we fundamentally differ. If someone thinks they hear a difference,
then they do hear a difference. It is just asinine to say the don't, and
serves no purpose.
Unless that 'someone' is a company or trying to sell you something, or
trying to come off as
mlsstl;693759 Wrote:
No, it means you're human. Surprise!
However, a husband and wife working together to confirm what the
husband believes he already hears hardly qualifies as a blind test.
Just another variant of the old even my wife could hear it! proof.
You sir, do not know my wife.
Pretty much 100% agree Phil. Except of course, a Squeezebox sounds
better if the LMS is running on Linux or MacOS instead of Windows.
-Paul
(grin - you realize I am pulling your chain right? :) )
--
paul.raulerson
totoro;693793 Wrote:
I'm sorry, but at this point in the argument (ok, discussion :) ) you
seem to be pretty much ignoring the fact that there is a well
established literature on the way we humans trick ourselves. There are
some videos on youtube by Ethan Winer and Poppy Crum illustrating
paul.raulerson;693812 Wrote:
Pretty much 100% agree Phil. Except of course, a Squeezebox sounds
better if the LMS is running on Linux or MacOS instead of Windows.
-Paul
(grin - you realize I am pulling your chain right? :) )
:-) oh yeah... nearly got me!
--
Phil Leigh
You
paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote:
Going out on a limb here, but some folks I know claim that emailing a
file can change it and make it sound different. I would normally
discount that out of hand, but this came from a very noted record
producer and engineer with her own studio. That gives me
Wombat;693829 Wrote:
At least we now can imagine were your gullibility comes from if you
correspond with such people.
:(
Ah, and you make my point about the ugly trolls prowling around the
Internet. I said that the people I was talking with are respectable
enough to make me at least think
paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote:
A friend of mine has a saying he is fond of, and that is that none of
this is a life or death type of issue - we are not killing babies here.
He's right.
I've said this before and I'll say it again:
I agree that the grand scheme of things home audio isn't all
paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote:
Going out on a limb here, but some folks I know claim that emailing a
file can change it and make it sound different. I would normally
discount that out of hand, but this came from a very noted record
producer and engineer with her own studio. That gives me
darrell;693838 Wrote:
This is easy to clear up. compare the emailed file (bit for bit) with
the original. If it is the same, it is the same, and will sound the
same, regardless of the credentials of those who say otherwise. If it
is not the same, all bets are off.
The argument from
Sounds like Cookie Marenco. Google her for all kinds of audiophile
hilarity.
--
andy_c
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread:
paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote:
Going out on a limb here, but some folks I know claim that emailing a
file can change it and make it sound different. I would normally
discount that out of hand, but this came from a very noted record
producer and engineer with her own studio. That gives me
paul.raulerson;693820 Wrote:
I also have a friend who is convinced that the power supply makes a
difference when ripping. I have listened to a bit of his stuff, and
darned if I didn't think I heard a difference. Note - think - I am
NOT convinced I actually did hear a difference. Unlike with
ralphpnj;693842 Wrote:
3) I uploaded this flac file to a newsgroup which means that the flac
file was converted into a yEnc file (a yEnc encoder converts binary
data, like the data (not music!!!) in a digital audio file, into text)
and that yEnc file was then split into several smaller
andy_c;693862 Wrote:
uuencode and base64 sound waaay better than yEnc. :D
Which font was used on the newsgroup any serifs would add a peculiar
edge on stuff :D
--
Mnyb
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621
Mnyb;693864 Wrote:
Which font was used on the newsgroup any serifs would add a peculiar
edge on stuff :D
I use only monospaced fonts when reading newsgroups, as the uniform
spacing between bytes reduces jitter considerably! :D
--
andy_c
I stated to read around here is not worth but on the other hand you guys
are really a funny crowd sometimes :)
Excuse me if i came across arrogant. You deserve a gold medal for
consistency and nerves of steel!!
--
Wombat
Transporter (modded) - RG142 - Avantgarde Acoustic based 500VA
Stick around man! Sanity is not so easy to find in audiophile forums.
--
andy_c
andy_c's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3128
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=93549
andy_c;693877 Wrote:
Stick around man! Sanity is not so easy to find in audiophile forums.
Of coarse i will :)
But always when i read such luch statements like this:
paul.raulerson;693808 Wrote:
Actually, we set up the tests so that they were blind, in fact as well
as in principal, and I
What I've noticed is that people who value blind tests know that they
are difficult to perform correctly, and are therefore unlikely to
perform such tests on a hypothesis having little merit. And yet one
reads claims of blind testing of pretty questionable hypotheses, with
alleged positive
chill;693843 Wrote:
Paul - the problem with this is PRECISELY the same as the problem with
those daft TAS claims. If a file ripped on a PC with a lousy power
supply is bit-for-bit identical with one ripped from a PC with a better
power supply, then the power supply made no difference. Just
Wombat;693879 Wrote:
Of coarse i will :)
But always when i read such luch statements like this:
Closing one eye for a moment on a sighted test is the max i anticipate
of such a claim.
Then you are being nothing more than an arse. For one thing, I didn't
test to convince you, just
andy_c;693883 Wrote:
What I've noticed is that people who value blind tests know that they
are difficult to perform correctly, and are therefore unlikely to
perform such tests on a hypothesis having little merit. And yet one
reads claims of blind testing of pretty questionable hypotheses,
paul.raulerson;693887 Wrote:
Whooo boy. Are you guys really going around the world to get next door.
It's really pretty simple - there is no club initiation to enjoy home
audio as a hobby. No certification exams, nor any oversight agency
checking credentials.
That's fine. In that case,
totoro;693725 Wrote:
Not sure that either people are capable in general of detecting
bullshit, or that it's strictly relevant here
Partially I like to argue for the fun of it. Partially because people
like item_audio who spew bullshit really annoy me, and I don't see any
reason why they
Phil Leigh;693553 Wrote:
It is theoretically possible (but highly unlikely) for two identical
copies of a file to play back differently if AND ONLY IF:
1) the hard disk is INSIDE the computer, attached to the motherboard.
2) the soundcard with DAC is part of the PC.
and the electrical
darrenyeats;693557 Wrote:
Computers work through layered, dynamic processes which mean ANY
playback will be electrically different. In fact, replaying the same
file a second time is more likely to yield a difference because the
file is likely to be cached entirely in memory the second time.
Phil Leigh;693560 Wrote:
Which is why some of these Audio PC solutions cache the entire track
in RAM first before playback commences...
But I agree that EVERY event is electrically different froma noise
perspective.
Which as you imply makes a complete mockerey of the whole thing.
ncarver;693545 Wrote:
Just to clarify, are you saying that it is so clearly impossible for two
bit-identical copies of an audio/video file stored on a computer to play
differently on that computer, that absolutely no effort needs to be
wasted to refute such a claim, and those making the
Soulkeeper;693578 Wrote:
No. But I am saying that if you have two bit-identical files, it is
impossible for the history of the content of these files to cause them
to be play differently on any computer. And therefore absolutely no
effort needs to be wasted to refute such a claim, and those
Phil Leigh;693553 Wrote:
They will simply laugh.
ProTools anyone?
But ProTools is so expensive that they definitely have cared for the
problem that the files they record might sound differently based on the
position of the harddrive where the file is saved.
I think for the same reason
bluegaspode;693594 Wrote:
But ProTools is so expensive that they definitely have cared for the
problem that the files they record might sound differently based on the
position of the harddrive where the file is saved.
I think for the same reason ProTools only records in WAV and not FLAC.
Soulkeeper;693578 Wrote:
No. But I am saying that if you have two bit-identical files, it is
impossible for the history of the content of these files to cause them
to be play differently on any computer. And therefore absolutely no
effort needs to be wasted to refute such a claim, and those
With HD playback is is not as you move bits from HD to the player like
S/PDIF during the whole song in a stream.
An average song with 50MB needs 2 seconds of HD access somewhere during
its lets say 4 minutes. Depending on the player this access happens in
the beginning to the buffer or
ncarver;693616 Wrote:
So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
on some type of storage device on a computer. You really want to claim
that it is absolutely impossible for there to be any
ncarver;693616 Wrote:
I don't understand history of the content. By that you mean which one
came first, etc.?
So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
on some type of storage device on a
TAS copying argument is actually even more silly, they basically imply
that you have to rerip a new WAV file after it has been transcoded to
FLAC and back to WAV and implies that this is an irrecoverable
generational loss which is completely impossible . That no moving
around or defrag or
ncarver;693616 Wrote:
So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
on some type of storage device on a computer. You really want to claim
that it is absolutely impossible for there to be any
ncarver;693616 Wrote:
I don't understand history of the content. By that you mean which one
came first, etc.?
No. Not the history of the files. The history of the content of the
files. Let me illustrate with two hypothetical scenarios. I'll call
them A and B.
Scenario A:
1) You have an
ncarver;693616 Wrote:
I don't understand history of the content. By that you mean which one
came first, etc.?
So let's be more precise and say we have two bit-identical audio/video
files stored within the same physical filesystem (i.e., same partition)
on some type of storage device on a
It's easy for us computer folk to think everyone should understand this
when they don't.
A file on a computer, as Phil stated, is just numbers. This is the case
whether the file is a spreadsheet, an audio file or a picture.
Copying a file creates an exact copy. So you have another file with the
darrenyeats;693664 Wrote:
It's easy for us computer folk to think everyone should understand this
when they don't.
A file on a computer, as Phil stated, is just numbers. This is the case
whether the file is a spreadsheet, an audio file or a picture.
Copying a file creates an exact copy.
I just wonder if any of the people here who believe that computers
and/or storage can actually make a difference have any problems using
ATMs, credit cards or any form of banking that requires computers and
ethernet connections.
It's got me worried now! ;-)
--
paulster
Receiver stuck at blue
paulster;693704 Wrote:
I just wonder if any of the people here who believe that computers
and/or storage can actually make a difference have any problems using
ATMs, credit cards or any form of banking that requires computers and
ethernet connections.
It's got me worried now! ;-)
paul.raulerson;693713 Wrote:
Snort!!!
This whole thing is running rampant. I'm a very good software and
systems engineer, and I have more than a little electronics in my
background.
(1) I can change a dratted USB cable between my Mac and a high end
synch USB DAC (a Wavelength Proton)
totoro;693717 Wrote:
Not to belabour the point, but the issue of whether location on disc
affects sound or whether or not the disc is highly fragmented is NOT
germane to whether using program 1 or program 2 make the same identical
file sounds better. You know this as well as I do, I would
b. for all anyone here knows, I could really be a janitor at a car
fittings company
Some of those probably have better bs detectors than many professors .
Positive example as in the latest faster than light discovery at cern ,
the scientist solicited and wanted more eyes on the problem and
Sigh. It's all very simple.
The TAS authors heard a difference that really ought not to be there.
Assuming for the moment that they are not flat-out lying and genuinely
did perceive a difference, there are two possible reasons:
1. There really are audible differences, which goes against a vast
The Benchmark input circuits mean the only distortions, including
jitter, are those inherent to the unit - changing input jitter has no
effect. That's a separate point though.
When I said the digital side is perfect, I was referring to server and
touch. Obviously no DAC or output stage is
cliveb;693375 Wrote:
Sigh. It's all very simple.
The TAS authors heard a difference that really ought not to be there.
Assuming for the moment that they are not flat-out lying and genuinely
did perceive a difference, there are two possible reasons:
1. There really are audible
Mnyb;693385 Wrote:
...Hint electronics is used in other stuff than audio and laws of
pshysic are universally valid , nothing special with a circuit if it
happens to carry an audio signal no exceptions for that...
Yes - and some (much) of that stuff is WAY, WAY more demanding than
audio.
Phil Leigh;693391 Wrote:
some (much) of that stuff is WAY, WAY more demanding than audio.
Some people believe audio(fool) equipment to be the pinnacle of human
achievement. I don't understand where they got the idea. Looking at
polished speaker cabinets in glossy magazines, and believing
Phil Leigh;693391 Wrote:
It's about time we started applying the CERN faster than light
neutrino test here... if 2 things sound different when logically they
shouldn't, they probably don't actually sound different and the truth
lies in the mind of the listener. Only a properly conducted
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