Le lundi, 28 juil 2003, à 21:27 Europe/Paris, Jean-Michel Hiver a écrit
:
Also, with TT you have to use the filter 'html' to XML encode your
variables. Petal does it by default, and you need to use the TALES
'structure' keyword to NOT encode.
You don't *have* to use the 'html' filter in TT. I
XML syntax is crufty at best. It requires you to be strict and tediously
correct with every character.
So what. It's not like you can afford to forget that many curly braces
or semicolons (well, except those at the end of a block) with Perl. That
doesn't make it useless does it?
You have to
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Andy Wardley wrote:
Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
Because Petal templates have to be well-formed XML,
XML syntax is crufty at best.
There's a lot in XML that is needless, but like perl still has a dump()
function, we just say don't use that then. At it's core, XML is a very
Matt Sergeant wrote:
At it's core, XML is a very elegant syntax for defining a rich dataset
of nodes
It's a syntax for defining a dataset of nodes that all conform to XML's
ideas about what a dataset of nodes looks like. I'm not convinced about
rich or elegant.
:-)
and you find
Jean-Michel Hiver wrote:
something like:
div dir=!--VAR language_dir --
!--VAR some_content--
/div
Which is completely impossible to validate and IMHO very hard to read.
Agreed. The following is easier to read, IMHO, and is also valid XML markup.
div dir=[% language_dir %]
[%
If you like a more straightforward approach, TT also lets you write:
div dir=$language_dir
$some_content
/div
See, I knew there would be something that we would agree on! :-)
:)
But at the risk of breaking compatibility with some validators / XML
tools / etc.
It
I suggest y'all check out Tapestry
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
to see a really nice happy medium. It uses a templating language
similar to TAL but much more flexible (and useful, in my mind) than
rigid XML. All its templates can be used in things like Dreamweaver
and GoLive with
Hi, All
May be I'm a bit late here... But is there any sence in artifical XML
templating languages since there is XSLT ? Just wonder whether there are
cons other than long learning curve and performance issues ?
Alex Gidrevich
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Aleksandr Guidrevitch wrote:
May be I'm a bit late here... But is there any sence in artifical XML
templating languages since there is XSLT ? Just wonder whether there are
cons other than long learning curve and performance issues ?
Well, in the case of just TAL/Petal,
I've been considering using a template system for an app that I'm
working, but decided against it as the designers who would be putting
the actual pages together (look n feel) use Adobe GoLive which does
'bad things' to non-html stuff (at least in my experience).
I know everybody's defending
I know everybody's defending their fave templating system... I guess I
can't resist: I have to jump in and defend my baby :)
So why is Petal better than anything else?
Oops, I got a bit carried away...
As a side note, Petal is probably not better than anything else, but
different. If you're
- Original Message -
From: Jean-Michel Hiver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:46 PM
First of all, it is an implementation of TAL. TAL is a very clever open
specification for WYSIWYG-friendly templates written by the Zope people.
Do you have
Do you have a URL for further reading on TAL?
I found one:
http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZPT/TAL
Regards,
Kitch
Hey Randal --
Maybe because it competes with OpenInteract, which is far
more established.
I don't really think OI and CGI-App are in competition at all. OI
attempts to be a uber-framework, a la Mason -- or maybe more like
ColdFusion or WebObjects.CGI::Application just focuses on web
First of all, it is an implementation of TAL. TAL is a very clever open
specification for WYSIWYG-friendly templates written by the Zope people.
Do you have a URL for further reading on TAL?
Yep.
http://www.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZPT/TAL
Petal has an active community and a
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to read between
the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful. I don't know,
so I don't have any opinions. I do
Hi Matt,
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Matt Sergeant wrote:
The main reason I like AxKit is it prevents me from screwing up [snip]
I just write straight perl code. I barely notice that I'm using XML.
Can you give us in a couple of sentences your take on the state of XML
in general and AxKit in
: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Re: templating system opinions (axkit?)
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to read between
the lines of hype vs. something that's
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Hauck, William B. wrote:
What i've done is just use completely external html files with
html-compliant comments indicating the data field. (example !--
APPNAME_USER_FIRST_NAME --). My application just reads in the html
on startup and does a series of substition
Change that to:
!-- TMPL_VAR APPNAME_USER_FIRST_NAME --
You mean TMPL_VAR APPNAME_USER_FIRST_NAME don't you? Or did I miss the
secret stealth hide-your-tags-in-html-comments feature? :-)
-Fran
What you have created for your own use is almost exactly what HTML::Template does. We have used it for a year without any major problems between us and the HTML designer. Its fast and supports loops and if statements. Its probably worth your while to check it out.
As far as XSLT goes, we're
To: Patrick Galbraith
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Re: templating system opinions (axkit?)
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to read between
the lines
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Change that to:
!-- TMPL_VAR APPNAME_USER_FIRST_NAME --
You mean TMPL_VAR APPNAME_USER_FIRST_NAME don't you? Or did I miss the
secret stealth hide-your-tags-in-html-comments feature? :-)
You missed it:
I'm curious as to why the combination of CGI::Application and
HTML::Template hasn't taken off ... CGI::Application seems to allow a
software developer to create an entire CGI app that can be stored and
distributed as a module on CPAN, but only a couple such app/modules
have been so added.
You missed it:
http://search.cpan.org/author/SAMTREGAR/HTML-Template-2.6/Temp
late.pm#NOTES
Ah. When the section begins If you're a fanatic about valid HTML it
becomes more clear why I missed that. :-)
Thanks,
Fran
Dave == Dave Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Dave I'm curious as to why the combination of CGI::Application and
Dave HTML::Template hasn't taken off ... CGI::Application seems to allow a
Dave software developer to create an entire CGI app that can be stored and
Dave distributed as a module on
Hi,
That was really interesting to look at. OpenInteract is really impressive.
I guess there is always a cost to having a big
do it all type of system. That is what made me avoid Mason, it just blew my
head off for complexity. Now it is true, I am looking for a bit more than
what
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Eric wrote:
do it all type of system. That is what made me avoid Mason, it just blew my
head off for complexity. Now it is true, I am looking for a bit more than
There's a fine book about it.
www.masonbook.com
Just an unbiased opinion ;)
-dave
Eric wrote:
That was really interesting to look at. OpenInteract is really
impressive. I guess there is always a cost to having a big
do it all type of system. That is what made me avoid Mason, it just blew
my head off for complexity. Now it is true, I am looking for a bit more
than what
Dave Rolsky wrote:
There's a fine book about it.
www.masonbook.com
Just an unbiased opinion ;)
Hey, I'd be happy to write a book about OpenInteract ;-)
Chris
--
Chris Winters ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Building enterprise-capable snack solutions since 1988.
Hi Jesse,
-Original Message-
From: Jesse Erlbaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:50 PM
To: 'Patrick Galbraith'
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Hi Patrick --
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying
hi
( 03.07.21 17:04 -0500 ) Nigel Hamilton:
At Turbo10 we went for a strict 'no functional elements' in the
template approach.
this seems like you're placing a technical limit on your solution. why
wouldn't you use the technologies that will solve your problem the best
instead of constraining
Just wondering what the best templating system is to use
and/or learn.
Hi,
I'm just wondering why no one recommended Embperl. Like Mason, it's more
than a templating system, but I find it's inheritance features great.
I'm using it for a personal project and haven't really checked it's
On Monday, Jul 21, 2003, at 02:23 Europe/London, Dave Rolsky wrote:
All of this said, what is the most commonly used system out there?
The biggest players are Mason and Template Toolkit, judging from big
companies that have used them, as well as job posting.
HTML::Template,
Embperl, and
Hi Dave --
Dave Rolsky writes:
Mason isn't fast. It is, however, fast enough for high
volume sites -
that I will assert.
Sure, amazon.com among them.
Amazon.com uses Mason? Why have I not heard of this before?
-Jesse-
Jesse Erlbaum wrote:
Dave Rolsky writes:
Sure, amazon.com among them.
Amazon.com uses Mason? Why have I not heard of this before?
I personally have not seen an official announcement, but if you look
at all their postings on jobs.perl.org you'll notice that nearly every
one of them mentions
In a good OO system with objects
representing the
data model, I found it exhausting to use H::T when I could
just to this
in TT:
[% user.name %]
Am I just being stupid, or are there better ways of doing
these things
in H::T?
I'm a little late to the dance but I generally
I wanted to add that you *can* use Mason for MVC type programming. I do
that on my current big project, www.better-investing.org, in the admin
areas. I have a controller index.html page which chooses what component
to run based on a run mode, just like CGI::Application, but then gives
me all
Matt Sergeant wrote:
(you can of course use XSLT in AxKit :-)
And don't forget that, with AxKit, you can use Apache::ASP, Mason, or
any Apache::Filter-aware handler to provide content for AxKit to
transform and TT2 as a transformational language. Oh, and there's
XPathScript, too, which,
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Drew Taylor wrote:
I personally have not seen an official announcement, but if you look
at all their postings on jobs.perl.org you'll notice that nearly every
one of them mentions Mason. I'm sure Dave will have more to say on the
subject... :-)
Not too much more. But
I'm guessing they use it for IMDB, although they may have other
projects as well that use it. I do know that their core app is
C++/apache, with some sort of perl glue to talk to the app.
Nice that they are such an apache/perl/OS house considering they're here
in Seattle, mere miles from
Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to read between
the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful. I don't know,
so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use XSLT/XML so as to
have a
Hi Patrick --
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to
read between
the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful.
I don't know,
so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use
XSLT/XML so as to
have a project to use it for, hence learn it.
I recently found one good use for not bashing XSLT right away. We were using JUnit
and JUnitReport to do unit testing and reporting for our java using the Ant build
tool. JUnit runs tests and can generate the output to xml. JUnitReport uses xslt to
transform them to websites.
I simply
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
I'm guessing they use it for IMDB, although they may have other
projects as well that use it. I do know that their core app is
C++/apache, with some sort of perl glue to talk to the app.
I believe IMDB uses mod_perl, but I don't know about Mason.
Jesse Erlbaum wrote:
Hi Patrick --
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to
read between
the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful.
I don't know,
so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use
XSLT/XML so as to
have a project to use it for,
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Dave Rolsky wrote:
OTOH, if you were to try to replicate some of Mason's more powerful
features with H::T, like autohandlers, inheritance, etc., then I'm
sure that'd bring H::T's speed down to Mason's level ;)
I wouldn't be too sure. I implemented a lot of that stuff to
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Sam Tregar wrote:
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Dave Rolsky wrote:
OTOH, if you were to try to replicate some of Mason's more powerful
features with H::T, like autohandlers, inheritance, etc., then I'm
sure that'd bring H::T's speed down to Mason's level ;)
I wouldn't be too
Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
I used it for http://www.nikki-site.com (sorry, Japanese-only site).
This site uses exactly 4 pure-mod_perl handlers, and everything else
eventually goes through AxKit (excuse the site design, as far as
development goes that is a
Jesse Erlbaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It's mostly hype in my experience. And not even very useful hype, like
Java or PHP, which are actually real things which people might want to
use.
XSLT seems to be XML geeks' answer to CSS+templating. As if CSS wasn't
very successful, as if the world
On Mon, 2003-07-21 at 12:22, Kip Hampton wrote:
And don't forget that, with AxKit, you can use Apache::ASP, Mason, or
any Apache::Filter-aware handler to provide content for AxKit to
transform and TT2 as a transformational language. Oh, and there's
XPathScript, too, which, although its only
On Mon, 2003-07-21 at 12:14, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
I get so tired of Java types talking about how perl is just a scripting
language.. it's not an application platform/server like
Dynamo/WebSpere/insert $$$ java non-OS app here. I even tried to crack
a particular Orielly java book and was
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Dave Rolsky wrote:
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Sam Tregar wrote:
I wouldn't be too sure. I implemented a lot of that stuff to add
HTML::Template support to Bricolage and it's still much faster than
Mason.
A lot as in _all_ of it, or a lot as in autohandlers and
Perrin Harkins wrote:
On Mon, 2003-07-21 at 12:22, Kip Hampton wrote:
Why choose one when you can have 'em all? :-)
Well, no offense to AxKit, but having multiple templating systems in a
single project is something that I specifically work to avoid. It
complicates things and typically hurts
Perrin Harkins wrote:
The one thing about TT was that I don't know if I really liked how it
had a different syntax than perl. Plus, as far as performance, we did
some specific coding to make it faster for Slash so our templates would
be in the DB.
That's an anti-optimization. Filesystems are
Just wondering what the best templating system is to use
and/or learn.
I'm just wondering why no one recommended Embperl. Like Mason, it's more
than a templating system, but I find it's inheritance features great.
I too have found template inheritance to be pretty important - especially
Just wondering what the best templating system is to use
and/or learn.
Hi,
I'm just wondering why no one recommended Embperl. Like Mason, it's more
than a templating system, but I find it's inheritance features great.
I'm using it for a personal project and haven't really checked it's
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Dave Rolsky wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
TT was ok, but it did use a bunch of ram ;)
So does Mason. HTML::Template is no doubt much leaner, but it's also lean
on features. Nothing wrong with that if it suits your needs, though.
Most Perl
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
H::T is much more programmer-centric. In a lot of contexts, that makes
sense. Informally (as in, I haven't done a systematic comparison), it is
also faster than Mason. Mason isn't slow, but if you need every last
gram of performance, well, you
Barry Hoggard wrote:
I used to use HTML::Template for projects, but I moved to
Template::Toolkit because I felt the former's syntax was just too
limited. I know we want to separate code and logic, but H::T
keeps me
[skip]
JE Jesse Erlbaum
JE Programmer: Get object, Get object attribute
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Dave Rolsky wrote:
Actually, H::T is almost certainly _much_ faster and less RAM-intensive
than Mason, at least when you measure the time it takes to serve a single
page/component. OTOH, if you were to try to replicate some of Mason's
more powerful features with H::T,
I've been working at Classmates.com for a couple months contracting, and
they use Text::Forge.
I've been impressed by the performance, and wish it was a big player.
Part of the reason it isn't is guys like me should contribute to it and
make it a bigger player.
I really like the syntax - it
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
I've been working at Classmates.com for a couple months contracting, and
they use Text::Forge.
I've been impressed by the performance, and wish it was a big player.
Part of the reason it isn't is guys like me should contribute to it and
make it
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Jamie Lawrence wrote:
Mason isn't fast. It is, however, fast enough for high volume sites -
that I will assert.
Sure, amazon.com among them.
From my view, the utility of autohandlers and dhandlers, in terms of
code written vs. cost and time, is an enormous win. Add to
Hey Ken --
Search the guide:
http://perl.apache.org/search/swish.cgi?query=templatesbm=submit=sear
ch
I'm deeply amused that there are nearly as many articles about
templating systems on perl.apache.org (30) as there are templating
modules on CPAN!
TTYL,
-Jesse-
--
Jesse Erlbaum
Hi Patrick --
I gotta have something to counter PHP people with too ;)
Dave is right: CPAN is a very compelling argument.
OTOH, it you've already cast your lot with using a server page system
(a la Mason, ASP, JSP, ColdFusion), PHP is a pretty compelling choice.
It's new, sexy, lightweight,
Stas == Stas Bekman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Stas While Andy is working on it, you can read a TT for mod_perl chapter in
Stas Practical mod_perl, written by Andy as well! (http://modperlbook.org)
Man, that guy is *everywhere*!
:-)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc.
Jesse Erlbaum wrote:
The big players are Template::Toolkit and HTML::Template. It's no
secret that I'm a fan of HTML::Template -- Sam and I worked together
when he wrote it, and my module, CGI::Application, uses it out of the
box (although it does support TT).
I use HTML::Template because
Jesse Erlbaum wrote:
Hey Ken --
Search the guide:
http://perl.apache.org/search/swish.cgi?query=templatesbm=submit=sear
ch
I'm deeply amused that there are nearly as many articles about
templating systems on perl.apache.org (30) as there are templating
modules on CPAN!
The search shows
Hi there,
Just wondering what the best templating system is to use and/or learn.
I've briefly read up on the pros and cons of each, and am just wondering
which one is the most widely _used_ and best to learn if you're wanting to
know something that there are jobs for.
thanks ;)
--
Patrick
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: templating system opinions
Hi there,
Just wondering what the best templating system is to use and/or learn.
I've briefly
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Just wondering what the best templating system is to use and/or learn.
I've briefly read up on the pros and cons of each, and am just wondering
which one is the most widely _used_ and best to learn if you're wanting to
know something that there
-18 at 13:26, Ken Y. Clark wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: templating system opinions
Hi there,
Just wondering what the best templating system
Sorry to cc: this to the list, but I stand corrected and might as well
mention that to the list :)
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Dave Baker wrote:
Correction: Bricolage is written in Mason, I believe. That's what the
Bricolage authors say at http://bricolage.cc/
Hmm, so it does. I wonder where I got
Chris Devers sent the following bits through the ether:
It's a pretty clever approach; I'd like to see something like this done
with a Perl backend (I haven't really been keeping track of development,
for all I know there already is a Perl backend...). Read more:
Your wish is my command.
Thanks much,
Yeah, I worked with TT when I was on the Slash team ;)
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003,
Chris Devers wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Just wondering what the best templating system is to use and/or learn.
I've briefly read up on the pros and cons of each, and am
at 13:26, Ken Y. Clark wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 14:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: templating system opinions
Hi there,
Just wondering what the best templating
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Yeah, I worked with TT when I was on the Slash team ;)
Then why are you asking a question like this?? :)
--
Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://devers.homeip.net:8080/
Turing machine, n. [After Alan M. Turing (1912-1954), British
TT was ok, but it did use a bunch of ram ;)
I gotta have something to counter PHP people with too ;)
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Chris
Devers wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
Yeah, I worked with TT when I was on the Slash team ;)
Then why are you asking a question like
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
TT was ok, but it did use a bunch of ram ;)
So does Mason. HTML::Template is no doubt much leaner, but it's also lean
on features. Nothing wrong with that if it suits your needs, though.
Most Perl templating systems are probably slower and/or
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