Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

The beginner way -- 1. Open Pharo 6 2. Go to Welcome window 3. Go to Keymap Browser tab 4. Right click on a shortcut entry (for example global shortcut for close window) 5. Choose Inspect Action 6. Go to Source Code tab 7. Profit The Pharo coder way Or go to SystemWindow class >> buildSho

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

An extra thing for the first article, maybe change the package name from "HelloDemo" to "HelloWorld" On 9 December 2017 at 11:37, horrido wrote: > Pharo: The Next Ten Minutes > > . > > Feedback welcome. > > I will be leavi

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Envoyé de mon iPhone > Le 9 déc. 2017 à 11:05, Prof. Andrew P. Black a écrit : > > >> On 9 Dec 2017, at 07:44 , Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> >> Making shortcuts in Pharo is no big deal, if 10% of people asking for Emacs >> or vim shortcuts bothered creating just 10 shortcuts each we would h

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> On 9 Dec 2017, at 07:44 , Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Making shortcuts in Pharo is no big deal, if 10% of people asking for Emacs > or vim shortcuts bothered creating just 10 shortcuts each we would have by > now at least 100 Emacs shortcuts in Pharo. When one say that needs something > th

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Nope , nothing to do with Emacs GNU Smalltalk is Smalltalk without welll... Smalltalk Which is why almost none is using it. There is a project to use Pharo from inside Emacs called Shamoo. Frankly you will be sacrificing a lot of IDE goodies leaving Pharo. Neither Emacs or vim are proper IDE

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Pharo: The Next Ten Minutes . Feedback welcome. I will be leaving for vacation on Sunday for two weeks. Feedback should be given to me asap. Thanks. Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote > Hi Richard > > Thanks this is nice. I like

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

We often get suggestions for such bindings. While in general it would be a great thing and I often promote lowering barriers of entry, I feel in this context "pure text mode" developers are more likely to find many other barriers with Pharo not fitting their familiar development paradigm. Such bi

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

isn't GNU Smalltalk a emacs Smalltalk? maybe making a migration path from GNU to Pharo could be good? On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Kjell Godo wrote: > if Pharo could have a emacs version or face or something > that would advertise more functions that you can get > from the Pharo version > or

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

if Pharo could have a emacs version or face or something that would advertise more functions that you can get from the Pharo version or maybe link the two versions Pharo and emacsVimPharo so there is like a migration path to Pharo or they could work together that could be lower the barrier to entry

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Hi Richard Thanks this is nice. I like Greeter :) The suggestion of Ben are fun for the next one. I will add a link to your article. Stef On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:35 PM, horrido wrote: > Done. Class #Hello is now #Greeter in package "HelloDemo". > > I presume we're good to go, then? > > > > Of

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Thanks to all your feedback, the Pharo Quick Start guide gets better and better. Now, the reader will *really* see how easy Pharo is by the end of the second section. The rest of the guide deals with the System Browser. I'm very happy about this because I keep hearing crapola from JavaScript devel

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Maybe the core of the suggestion is start with the Playground and then go to the code browser, that's my workflow coming from other languages like Python and Scheme, and having the playground to emulate REPL before going to code browser has been really refreshing and also "going from scripting to o

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Now that’s what I call a great way to promote something. Excellent work, short to the point. In the future you could combine small code snippets together with the rest of your arguments for explaining the awesomeness of Pharo. Apple does this very well and in similar style to what you have done he

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I'm not sure what you mean by *PrintIt:*. If you mean type 'Hello World' in the Playground and just *Print it*, that's not really a "program." Sean P. DeNigris wrote > hernanmd wrote >> To me the Hello World in Smalltalk was always just writing: 'Hello world' > > +1. While putting it in a class

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On 8 December 2017 at 03:38, horrido wrote: > I've completed the first draft of my Pharo Quick Start guide > . I > decided > to forge ahead anyway. > > Feedback welcome. > > Note that I chose wget instead of curl because many Linux

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

hernanmd wrote > To me the Hello World in Smalltalk was always just writing: 'Hello world' +1. While putting it in a class shows a few more of the system's features, it also makes it seem more complex than other languages, when that's not really true. Why not just PrintIt: 'Hello world'? If it see

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

To me the Hello World in Smalltalk was always just writing: 'Hello world' 2017-12-07 19:35 GMT-03:00 horrido : > Done. Class #Hello is now #Greeter in package "HelloDemo". > > I presume we're good to go, then? > > > > Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote >> May be the class name could be change

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Done. Class #Hello is now #Greeter in package "HelloDemo". I presume we're good to go, then? Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas-2 wrote > May be the class name could be changed a little bit to allow more > flexibility using the Pharo Quick Start as a base. Something like > "Greeter" and "Greeter new

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

May be the class name could be changed a little bit to allow more flexibility using the Pharo Quick Start as a base. Something like "Greeter" and "Greeter new say: 'Hello world!'" or "Greeter new sayIt" could be implemented from there. Nice to see more and more documentation around Pharo, including

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I've revised the draft slightly for the comments given here: https://medium.com/@richardeng/pharo-quick-start-5bab70944ce2 Yes, it's a definite improvement. Thanks. Richard Sargent wrote > Excellent work, Richard! > > May I offer the small criticism against using #initialize for the method > n

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Excellent work, Richard! May I offer the small criticism against using #initialize for the method name? I think a name like #sayIt (for example) and invocation like "Hello new sayIt" would make it explicit. This will be a great help for people who drop by out of curiosity. On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 a

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Once the pharo quick start guide is ready we will add it to the documentation. On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > I read it and it is good and to the point. > I was thinking if we could have a class named something else than Hello > May be Repeater new say: 'Hello' ? > >

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I read it and it is good and to the point. I was thinking if we could have a class named something else than Hello May be Repeater new say: 'Hello' ? Stef On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:43 PM, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks Richard. I like when you are doing :) > > On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:38 PM,

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Thanks Richard. I like when you are doing :) On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 8:38 PM, horrido wrote: > I've completed the first draft of my Pharo Quick Start guide > . I decided > to forge ahead anyway. > > Feedback welcome. > > Note that I

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I've completed the first draft of my Pharo Quick Start guide . I decided to forge ahead anyway. Feedback welcome. Note that I chose wget instead of curl because many Linux distros do not have curl installed. I've tested the guide

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I meant: Creating directories are just extra steps so Pharo and its images keep the good practice to not let them pollute your home directory... as most programs do these days. Cheers, Offray On 07/12/17 09:49, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote: > > Yes. Creating directories are just extra st

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Yes. Creating directories are just extra steps so Pharo and its images is just a good practice to not let it pollute your home directory... as most programs do these days. Cheers, Offray On 07/12/17 05:01, Cédrick Béler wrote: > I also find this way simple and the best to me. > > curl get.pharo

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I also find this way simple and the best to me. curl get.pharo.org/64/ | bash ./pharo-ui Pharo.image Don’t really need to say to create a dir or maybe pass it as a parameter in curl. The other way to install through that download one file is nice at first but I find it no convenient especiall

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

If you are working with Mac and Gnu/Linux, your quick start could start by: 1. Create the folder for your Pharo program, download it and Launch it. For that, open your Terminal and type: ``` mkdir -p ~/Programs/Pharo/ cd ~/Programs/Pharo/ |curl get.pharo.org/64/ | bash ./pharo-ui Pharo.image | `

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I've encountered another issue, this time with the macOS download... After I download the zip file, I unzip the file and move the Pharo application to the Applications folder. Then I have to right-click on the Pharo application and select open (double-clicking prevents me from opening the file at

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> On 5 Dec 2017, at 16:36, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > Hmm, yes, http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-linux.zip seems broken, > duh. > > $ curl get.pharo.org | bash > > works fine though. > > It is not possible to offer a single solution for 'Linux' as there are 100s > of distribu

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Hmm, yes, http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-linux.zip seems broken, duh. $ curl get.pharo.org | bash works fine though. It is not possible to offer a single solution for 'Linux' as there are 100s of distributions, package managers, and individual preferences and tastes. That is what GNU

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Then clearly there is something seriously wrong with the Default GNU/Linux download. It does not contain a file called 'pharo-ui'. Moreover, since the Pharo6.1.image file is located in the 'shared' folder, you'd have to CD to 'shared' to execute your command. No mention of this anywhere! How is a

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:49 AM, horrido wrote: >> Understood. I'm working on a Pharo Quick Start guide. If it passes muster >> with you guys, you may want to link to it, or incorporate its contents into >> the pharo.org website. > > Sure let us know. I’m also very interested as I want to giv

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On 5 December 2017 at 14:50, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:49 AM, horrido wrote: > > Understood. I'm working on a Pharo Quick Start guide. If it passes muster > > with you guys, you may want to link to it, or incorporate its contents > into > > the pharo.org website. > Sur

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:49 AM, horrido wrote: > Understood. I'm working on a Pharo Quick Start guide. If it passes muster > with you guys, you may want to link to it, or incorporate its contents into > the pharo.org website. Sure let us know. > However, I've stumbled on an odd obstacle: downlo

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Understood. I'm working on a Pharo Quick Start guide. If it passes muster with you guys, you may want to link to it, or incorporate its contents into the pharo.org website. However, I've stumbled on an odd obstacle: downloading and running the Default GNU/Linux zip file. According to the Linux ins

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Hi We have a full mooc with 90 videos, we have books. And we are super busy. You see we cannot do everything. Stef On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:15 AM, horrido wrote: > Speaking of which, one of my readers said he tried out Pharo recently and > found the documentation wanting. He was expecting a Ge

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On 4 December 2017 at 12:15, horrido wrote: > Speaking of which, one of my readers said he tried out Pharo recently and > found the documentation wanting. He was expecting a Getting Started guide at > the pharo.org website and couldn't find one. So he had to blunder around a > bit. Thanks for pas

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Speaking of which, one of my readers said he tried out Pharo recently and found the documentation wanting. He was expecting a Getting Started guide at the pharo.org website and couldn't find one. So he had to blunder around a bit. I told him he could've looked at "Chapter 2: A quick tour of Pharo"

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On 13/10/17 08:52, Vitor Medina Cruz wrote: > I completely agree with Ben. > > As for Dimitris, I have some points: > [...] > > The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that > slam into our face. We love challange. But only if we find it > interesting. > > > See, I

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Look and feel Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 16, 2017, at 10:41, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas > wrote: > > Hi, > > >> On 13/10/17 19:39, Andrew Glynn wrote: >> Pharo is a great OSS Smalltalk, IMHO by the best to date (Squeak >> was/is good, but the LaF was never professional enough for it to

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

me spent on Kendrick itself. It's an >> inherently complex problem area, and it's a life or death problem area. >> That an application capable of working reliably enough to be trusted in >> that area was built in a short time, because it was built-on a couple of >> d

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

LaF = Look and Feel. If you look at recent versions LaF of Squeak has improved as well. In fact considerably compared to 3.8/3.9 where Pharo branched off. On 10/16/17, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas wrote: > Hi, > > > On 13/10/17 19:39, Andrew Glynn wrote: >> Pharo is a great OSS Smalltalk, IMHO

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I'm think that is important to remove barriers for developers coming from other environments based on files for development and documentation, but my path is different, is teaching people like journalist, hacktivist who has no previous or deep experience into developing. Starting with them, using L

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Hi, On 13/10/17 19:39, Andrew Glynn wrote: > Pharo is a great OSS Smalltalk, IMHO by the best to date (Squeak > was/is good, but the LaF was never professional enough for it to be > taken as seriously as it deserves, it just looks too much like a toy > although in reality it's very powerful). Hav

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

problem area. > That an application capable of working reliably enough to be trusted in > that area was built in a short time, because it was built-on a couple of > decades of OSS work, is a huge compliment to those who were involved. > > Unfortunately for me, I wasn't, ☺. Bu

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

The first language I played with, I was nearly 5, was a live environment, Forth.  I used it on an old PDP my mother had bought that was being surplused at the company she worked at.  I used Forth until I was in my early teens, it was far superior to the BASIC that most other kids I knew who knew an

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

mode-switching, though, between the rules of the language you're > implementing and those of the language you're implementing *in*, but that > only makes the case for languages implemented in themselves stronger. > > Andrew > > > -Original Message- >

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Well oh Well, Python is stupid Very, very stupid To my suprise live coding in Python its actually easier to what I expected and almost the same, from user perspective to that of pharo.Minus the IDE conveiniece of course. But a pain in the hat to find the proper way to do it. I was reloading

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

g, though, between the rules of the language you're implementing and those of the language you're implementing in, but that only makes the case for languages implemented in themselves stronger. Andrew -Original Message- Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 18:39:59 +0200 Subject: Re: [Ph

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Am 13.10.2017 5:50 PM schrieb "Andrew Glynn" : I can't remember ever using API docs in *any* language, dynamic or not. They give you the method signatures, but if you have, say, methodX(int, int, String), how are you supposed to guess what ints and what String the method actually needs, Isn't th

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I can't remember ever using API docs in any language, dynamic or not.  They give you the method signatures, but if you have, say, methodX(int, int, String), how are you supposed to guess what ints and what String the method actually needs, unless the methods are nothing but getters and setters (whi

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I completely agree with Ben. As for Dimitris, I have some points: There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if > not completely wrong > > 1) How you get people to run in this race ? > > 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get > first

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I agree with you that difficulty is half the fun, assuming you're a developer - developers solve problems, so if there weren't any we'd be a bit out of luck.  For myself I've somehow never, in a 26+ year career, worked on maintaining code. I've only ever written new code. in fact  I usually wind up

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over in > trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry. I've previously referred to > this article by JoelOnSoftware, but to pull out a key part... "Think of > these barriers as an obstacle course that people have to run before you c

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas < offray.l...@mutabit.com> wrote: > The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. > That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over in trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry. I've previously referr

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 2:45 PM, horrido wrote: > Hey, guys, I'm mentioned in this O'Reilly newsletter > > !!! All because of the Pharo article. > > I wonde

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Plus, namespaces are difficult to implement. It could tear your class library to pieces Brad Selfridge 913-269-2385 > On Oct 12, 2017, at 9:10 AM, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > For me there is also question 3) How closely they are related to the > bootstrap project > > namespaces afterall is

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

For me there is also question 3) How closely they are related to the bootstrap project namespaces afterall is all about modularity which is the goal of bootstrap as well . no ? So maybe we should not view them as a separate project and more as boostrap v2 , after v1 is released of course Proably P

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

horrido wrote > Having separate namespaces would be really good. > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, and 2) where they fall on the endless prioritized todo list -

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I'll second that. Having separate namespaces would be really good. VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? kilon.alios wrote > The one things I trully miss, even know that I am "experieced" Pharo > coder, > depending on your standards, is python namespaces > > I dont care about the dot syntax but

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

The one things I trully miss, even know that I am "experieced" Pharo coder, depending on your standards, is python namespaces I dont care about the dot syntax but containers of containers at language level that will make me avoid giving weird names to my Pharo classes to avoid potential collisions

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On 12-10-17 08:30, Markus Stumptner wrote: Just to lead this back to the original question.  What you say is undoubtedly true.  It is not, however, necessarily something that a beginner will understand or be able to share in. That is a very important point. It also explains a lot of why we ar

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

That's definetly not a wrong view point, but neither is python's , its all about context. Who you are ? What you want do ? What live coding means to you ? How you want to use it ? How much you want to use it? etc If you want to do Pharo coding the pharo way , then Pharo is your No1 choice, but if

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

2017-10-12 9:28 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis : > > > >> This is what Smalltalk gives you for free. >> > Sorrry for being rude but I wll use the two usually heavily annoying word, > at least for me :D > > It depends > > See there is a problem for Python here. Ideology. > > The zen of python has been

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

"one of the reasons that Smalltalk historically has been view as insular, living in its own world avoid using non-Smalltalk libraries - because the lose of live coding here is a big impact." I would not say that Smalltalk is viewed as insular. I would say that Smallalk is not viewed at all period.

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> This is what Smalltalk gives you for free. > Sorrry for being rude but I wll use the two usually heavily annoying word, at least for me :D It depends See there is a problem for Python here. Ideology. The zen of python has been both a joke a serious mantra in the python world . Its a joke becau

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Just to lead this back to the original question.  What you say is undoubtedly true.  It is not, however, necessarily something that a beginner will understand or be able to share in.  So, to a certain degree this may be a trap caused by having the excellent environment.  The newbie who is not u

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:08 AM, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Yes sorry for not making this clear. I was wrong in this case. A module > reload will only replace class objects not instance objects. So if you > create a new instance after the reload it will have the updated version but > your old ins

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) There is a solution, not a great solution but it can do this. You can kinda do this via metacello and filetree, because when you export to git , it coverts class and method commen

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

major mistake i meant to say "providing a full live enviroment it would NOT be easy because I would have to find a mechanism to accomodate for tons of Python code that does not follow live coding standards " On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:08 PM Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Yes sorry for not making thi

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Yes sorry for not making this clear. I was wrong in this case. A module reload will only replace class objects not instance objects. So if you create a new instance after the reload it will have the updated version but your old instance would not. I try to test something before I make a claim but

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On Sat, Oct 07, 2017 at 01:41:17AM +, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > execution. Hence live coding, the Python VM replaces objects lively. Python > can also compile any size of code including individual methods. > That happens with one line of code importlib.reload(mymodule) AFAIK in Python when yo

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Seaside for html live docs browsing seems a good idea. How do you create something like [1]?: [1] http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/Kernel.html&classView=welcome.html Cheers, Offray On 11/10/17 10:31, Marcus Denker wrote: > > >> On 11 Oct 2017, at 17:18

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> On 11 Oct 2017, at 17:18, Thierry Goubier wrote: > > What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code > documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + live > browsing. > > You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to > documentati

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> On 11 Oct 2017, at 17:18, Thierry Goubier wrote: > > What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code > documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + live > browsing. > > You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to > documentati

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + live browsing. You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to documentation and code. Note how the panes in a system browser could make for a ni

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really sold on them compared with a live system and I don't think static API docs are critical for Pharo success. Cheers, Offray On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap,

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that makes html manipulation much easier http://www.kilon-alios.com Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but it’s an awesome Pharo library that allows

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was working on Pharo By Example You can find those links here https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown files. If the book in questio

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books for particul

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

horrido wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up what they need. After all, most

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP friendl

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I dunno, maybe I’m weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isn’t well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercise

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

> On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido wrote: > > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Yes exactly my post was not an effort to diminish the value of Pharo as live coding system. My effort was to reveal my findings because I have been doing a lot of research lately. I am not keen on abandoning the comforts of Pharo live coding wise now that I code in Python. But to get to Pharo leve

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

No because turing conplete means you have to implement all those live features yourself, I only gave a taste but I return to Python because thats the language I know the most, you can live manipulate objects in so many diffirent ways and mess their structure. Make a method become an instance variab

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Nothing is unresovable, some problems will require a lot of more hacking sure, but Pharo VM is implemented in C (yeah I know it suppose to be smalltalk but is actually slang compiled to C) and since everything out there uses C anything out there can do live coding. You can do it in billlion diffire

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:58 PM, horrido wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Which reminds me a guy that I tried to convince that become: is not the same as changeClassToThatOf: but he was super smart and knew so this is written in his super smart paper and I smile still now thinking about it. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Denis Kudriashov wrote: > Hi Dimitris. > >

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Webwarrior I can tell you that you made my day :) Thanks for this great testimony. Today we discuss about Pablo because he has a working system being able to upload hot code and migrate instance but also the code on the stack. We will see if we integrate it in Pharo but I want the best hot code l

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

A Bluebook updated picture would be great. And I am sure Roassal could produce it right away. Phil On Oct 10, 2017 15:58, "horrido" wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it >

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo co

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

kilon.alios wrote > it’s clear the community is unwilling to deal with such discussions. I wouldn't say that... after all this thread has the most posts on this list since January 21 ;) I personally learned a lot and was glad to hear all the points. I thought the last two pretty much captured the

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Hi Dimitris. You opinion about live programming reminds me the common sentence from developers who don't care about languages at all. Usual argument is: they all are Turing complete, so who cares. 2017-10-10 11:02 GMT+02:00 webwarrior : > Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for themselves. Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. > My post were not made to pick a figh

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

And not to worry I won’t bother with discussing such issues again it’s clear the community is unwilling to deal with such discussions. I have no problem with that , it’s a free world. On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 at 03:41, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > I never claimed that Python , which refers to CPython to

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

I never claimed that Python , which refers to CPython to the vast majority of python coders, is offering live coding out of the box. The fact that you have to reload modules manually would make such claims ridiculous. >From the very first post I was crystal clear that there is a need for creating

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

kilon.alios wrote > Care to explain what difficulty you experienced in live coding with > Python. > Or what Pharo can do that Python can’t live code wise ? Maybe I will learn > something. It's funny that one of main reasons why I discovered and started using Pharo was failure to get live coding wo

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