welcome any bug reports at
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues
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rm 'should' 18 times.
... Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen.
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rtable and hard to grasp and their reflex is to
substitute this with something purely technical where you can essentially
program a test to verify if the attribution is OK independent of the human
user. That cannot work.
--
Christoph Hormann
http:/
as a representative of your
employer, but also as an individual, you have to make it clear, at least
occasionally, that he or she represents beliefs and values that are not put on
the back burner compared to the paycheck. This would be a good opportunity for
this.
--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de
epartment doing
nothing but analysis of their users' behavior all day long. They know
*exactly* how many (or more accurately: how few) of the users of their maps
actually become aware of the origin of the data in OSM.
--
Christoph Hormann
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he lead-up
to the board elections we had open Q on the OSM wiki with the candidates.
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ny proprietary corporate platform - just like
twitter, facebook etc.)
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on most
certainly not.
I am looking forward to the practical demonstration on how the board will
implement their recently made commitment to open channels with that:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-August/007095.html
--
Christoph Hormann
htt
principle still apply (including in
particular that the OSMF publishes the changeset discussions under ODbL
as well).
The main difference i think is that contributions to changeset
discussions have a higher likeliness to in themselves be subject to
copyright (and not just database protection).
--
C
chavi) so if you have an
issue with that in principle picking out Slack specifically is not
really appropriate.
(that is all under the assumption that Slack is using the data in
compliance with the ODbL - which i don't know)
--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.i
lse is not. Actual privacy issue (like someone
doing detailed indoor mapping with the help of a telescope) is probably
less an issue here than for an individual house.
Or in other words: Rich people cannot claim a larger scope of privacy
just because they can own an
eway becomes part of the verifiable geography by being used as
a driveway.
For swimming pools that is certainly a matter of size - large swimming
pools are however major constructions and major users of water supplies
as well as reservoirs of water - to be used for example by firefighters
in
not to
map due to privacy concerns is covered by being not mappable due to not
being part of the verifiable geography.
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geworden sein - entzerrt sich das ein bisschen. Sprich: Wenn Du
dieses Jahr rechtzeitig für die Wahl (sprich: sehr bald) Mitglied wirst
dann hast Du nächstes Jahr nach der Nachricht, dass Du deine
Mitgliedschaft erneuern musst, gut Zeit, Dir die 42 Tage noch wieder zu
erarbeiten.
--
Christo
erenzen in Form bekannter
Community-Mitglieder oder Organisationen, mit denen Sie Arbeiten
angeben, welche Kenntnis von Ihren Aktivitäten haben.
[Absenden]
---
--
Christoph Hormann
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on that in court cases, juries
> deliberate in private, and not under public scrutiny;
That is an intriguing idea i think: Have the panel being put together
on a case-by-case basis randomly from a pool of volunteer jurors -
disqualifying those with a lack of impartiality on the specific case.
Have the
.]
Seems there are some eddies in the fabric of spacetime...
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function
otherwise). I guess that means both the nominations and selection of
panel members as well as the deliberation and consulting of the panel
on cases is going to happen behind closed doors.
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Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
_
152 features with tag
amenity=embassy - 1541 of which already have an office=diplomatic tag
in addition. That leaves 4611 features that only have the old style
tagging.
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kind but not the people creating them and living around them.
You probably did not intend to imply otherwise but quite a few readers of
your text not familiar with OSM, cartography and humanitarian mapping
jargon might get a wrong impression about OSM from your phrasing.
--
Christoph Hormann
http
d as part of the move from
CC-BY-SA to ODbL so the license change procedure defined by them could
not have been the basis of that license change obviously.
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h
n draw their own conclusions here... ;-)
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past
months on that subject - and possible engaging in a discussion of the
criticizm if there is need for clarification or explanation - would be
highly advisable.
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l pity for the
hardships of corporate data users in developing a business model that
works while providing sufficient attribution to OSM).
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'OpenStreetMap'. My consideration is purely a moral one.
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lder of moral rights on its own independent
of the OSM community.
Independent of what the OSMF suggests in the future - i would probably
continue attributing "OpenStreetMap contributors" where feasible to
clarify that i am crediting the contributo
the OSM community that
test and make use of all the potential this has.
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bout
> circumventing our well defined import guidelines, or disrespecting
> our basic tenets. It’s just your imagination.
I am not quite sure if you actually believe that or if this is a cold
blooded (though obviously rather crude) attempt to gaslight Frederik.
--
Christoph
t: "to change OSM from being a map by the people for the
people into a project of crowd sourced slave work for the corporate AI
overlords") nothing has changed since then.
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Christoph Hormann
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oes Facebook claim
that this is the only derivative database they are using?
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On Thursday 20 February 2020, Simon Poole wrote:
> Am 19.02.2020 um 14:24 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> > In this case the statement that "small maps or multiple data
> > sources" are the only cases where the document does not require
> > visible attribution is
M has towards data providers who
provide us data under the condition we distribute it under the ODbL,
not to put it effectively in the public domain.
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to attribute in any form they like as long as it is
equivalent or better in making the user aware of the use of OSM data as
the visible attribution in the corner of the map. That an attribution
hidden under an 'i' visible only on user interaction does not qualify
as
a different form that has *an equal or larger likeliness of
making the user aware of the OSM data use*.
If you want to give specific examples for how to do this then you should
use examples that clearly meet this requirements. A hidden attribution
evidently does not.
--
Christoph Hormann
http
ng use. The idea that for example in a small screen
display situation people are with a less visible attribution equally
likely to become aware of the source of the data is without a basis in
reason.
Reason dictates that in a small screen display situation *different*
methods of making the user aw
emptive surrender of the OSMF in front
of massive corporate interests.
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u should try to convince them
to do that, not Rory. Why should Rory - who does not share that
sentiment and who has unselfishly offered to remove the logo to avoid
people possibly feeling offended none the less - do that?
--
Christoph Hormann
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rnet.de/stgb/__86.html
which does not apply to the logo in question.
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ch kein Termin fest:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_of_the_Map_Southeast_Europe
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way that can be understood by
mappers without a background in the technological aspects of Mediawiki
and Wikidata alone can be very helpful to understand the issues with
these.
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ion of
tags is the thing to pursue, not moving towards a bot managed database
in replacement of or in control of human contributions.
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n particular also
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/2345
where we had much of the "what is the appropriate label language for
places where few people live" more than three years ago already.
--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
__
ween the two - see:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2019-August/008741.html
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Talking about compact binary data
representation here of course, not raw OSM XML and no lossy
compression.
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d
require neither share-alike nor attribution since they are neither a
Derivative Database, a Collective Database nor a Produced Work.
So while your willingness to attribute is admirable this kind of
attribution for mixed and processed data without shar
hing of additional value in combination with other data
under open license terms.
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enario
share-alike is meant for and why it was chosen as license for OSM. But
there are of course fairly strong economic interests for this not being
subject to share-alike so people think of ways to interpret the ODbL
accordingly.
--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
__
lready wrote in
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-November/083535.html
existing OSMF community guidelines suggest spatial operations like
ST_Difference() and ST_Intersection() yield Derivative Databases that
are subject to share-alike.
--
Christoph Hormann
ection or any other)
decides on the legal status of the resulting data set?
You are aware that a difference is the same as an intersection with the
complement, i.e. A \setminus B = A \cap B^c - see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complement_(set_theory)
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Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
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s made with the intention to
look at the matter with scientific methods.
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ot an OSM
derivative that would be a recipe to de-ODBL-ify any subset of OSM
data.
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or the law but derives from elementary
logic.
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cess the record of such communication is a very strong
political statement.
Given that only one of this year's board candidates openly states to be
working for facebook on their OSM user page - am i right to assume that
the person you are talking about is Michal Migurski?
--
Ch
zu werden und an den Wahlen Teil zu
nehmen (falls Ihr das noch nicht seid). Die OSMF kann sehr viel
Positives für das Projekt bewirken - wenn sie denn die richtigen
Entscheidungen fällt. Und das hängt maßgeblich davon ab, ob *Ihr*
qualifizierte Leute in den Vorstand wählt.
--
Christoph
between different parts of the
community and the claim of something being a "conspiracy theory" will
often be subjective and an instrument of cultural imperialism of some
dominant culture what they consider to be the acceptable range of views
you can have of reality onto th
ing patterns are in an inherent conflict with
a functioning social interaction within the mapper community. People
tend to respect the need for privacy and tolerate measures to protect
that but it can be problematic in communication with fellow mappers as
well.
--
Christoph Hormann
http://ww
Therefore this idea of a curated body of tagging documentation can only
be a contribution to open community discourse and governance on
tagging, it cannot be the result of it.
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g_changes
I have not actually tried the technical implementation of this but given
how it is used i doubt it would be suitable for the kind of content
centered editorial review we are talking about here.
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Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
ng and control over an important resource but that it will
be difficult to find, motivate, select and retain qualified people to
work on this.
And documentation of the de facto meaning of tags, potentially focused
on the most important ones, is of course - though evidently important -
only one aspect of what Roland want
ntour line mapping with cliffs. But IMO that is not really wrong,
that is just somewhat inprecise (and really hard to do better
practically).
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version management
and functions to facilitate editorial review and discussion.
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Hello Roland,
not sure if you have seen - i already gave my initial thoughts on this
on
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/imagico/diary/390599
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https
t. I completely understand if you don't
want to argue with me on that basis but if you do i expect to be taken
seriously and my arguments being reasoned with and not being dismissed
upfront as unqualified or confused.
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) part of
the visible map rendering, attribution with other sources on a separate
page that is visible after user interaction is acceptable. /
/If OpenStreetMap is not the largest data provider for the visible map
rendering, attribution with other sources on a separate page that is
visible after
On Monday 09 September 2019, Simon Poole wrote:
> Am 09.09.2019 um 12:08 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> > Existing guidelines allow a lot of things that are clearly not
> > allowed by the ODbL itself in terms of share-alike (like the
> > regional cuts concept for example
s that might be perceived to be loopholes in the license
itself with a clear message of: Here the safe terrain ends, we strongly
suggest you don't go there if you don't want to get in legal trouble or
potentially face the wrath of hundreds of thousands of OSM contributors
and supporters.
-
about making OSM data use possible where
it would otherwise not be - this is about profit margins in the
attention economy.
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t; Produced Work aware that Content was obtained from" - like the
> > license says. No exceptions.
>
> Nobody is making any exceptions.
Allowing for an 'attribution light' - a concept that is not in any way
supported or implied by the ODbL - under specific circumstances, i
rit
of license and why we have the attribution requirement and as explained
the dilution threshold is also practically non-quantifiable.
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basis for any kind of universal
rules.
Yes, you can try patching the holes in this concept by re-defining what
a map is but at the end of the day to define a relative fraction of OSM
data use as a quantitative cutoff for an 'attribution light' is just a
bad idea IMO.
--
C
M source data used in a map than in the OSM data used
attribution that is hidden by default is acceptable.
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e ODbL attribution requirements.
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ok.
Für nicht als Nutzplanzen angeplanzte Brombeeren ist natural=scrub exakt
richtig. Ggf. ergänzt mit genus=Rubus (gibts schon 46 mal) oder
(präziser) taxon="Rubus subgenus rubus" (gibts 19 mal).
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Christoph Hormann
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_
ails hatten ja eher positiv geklungen.
(Schon klar, dass wenn da jetzt Verleumdungs-Vorwürfe im Raum stehen
keine Details öffentlich gemacht werden können. Aber wenn da der
FOSSGIS in irgendeiner Form offiziell aktiv wird, wäre eine
grundsätzliche Information drüber schon wichtig)
--
Christoph Ho
the
wiki no matter where it is and remove everything that is not strictly
documenting the de facto meaning of tags in the OSM database the result
would be a pretty compact body of documentation.
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Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
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sily found by other mappers that would massively emphasize tag
proliferation since mappers will repeatedly invent new and different
tags for certain things because they are unaware that another mapper
has already invented a tag for this.
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Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
or if
it is comparable to possible attribution requirements of other geodata
sources produced by people who are paid for their work has zero effect
on the fulfilment of the requirements of the license.
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Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
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2012, so not a corporate representative, and has been at
> osm.org/copyright ever since.
Then let me rephrase:
It looks pretty much like being put together by corporate
representatives.
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- which is the case for almost all
commercial maps.
> That's unambiguous all
> we need. Fussing about what other logos might be on the map is a
> diversion and is not supported by the ODbL.
I don't think anyone but you talked about logos here.
--
Christoph H
ould result in the loss of trust from anyone seems
ridiculous.
And by the way if i try to follow your line of reasoning: you
interestingly did not mention the most significant harm resulting from
potentially unneccessary requirements: Lost profits.
Ein Schelm wer böses dabei denkt...
--
nt rule i think it goes beyond that - this is
obviously not compatible with the license from my point of view). I
find this kind of - well - reckless.
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ot;Substantial" Guideline, is missing
so far.
I am not sure about the origin of the 10k m^2 limit - that is not in
the "Substantial" Guideline at the moment.
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mappers who don't care about attribution and who would be fine or would
even prefer if OSM data was PD. But that is not my point here.
Because also those mappers are to a large fraction fully aware that
this view is not universal.
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Christoph Hormann
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__
with me but i hope you do not consider this
statement to be an argument on the matter.
For better understanding: Point 2 refers to a certain pattern in the
design of the document and lists a number of example to demonstrate
that. You could argue the observation of there being such a patt
interests of the OSM community we will have to create
our own guideline that lives up to the promise of being a
real "community guideline".
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w full publication of the raw data (which is not really necessary
to provide as an option since this participants can easily do on their
own).
* optionally to either of these allow non-public dissemination of raw
data to certain parties.
--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
_
t; Select “publicly aggregated and anonymously” as answer to the first
> question and the free form answers will be published.
Aggregated means exactly the opposite.
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g challenged
and criticized personally. While i don't mind this there are
definitely a lot of people who don't want or can't do this. And many
of them probably would not mind their answers being published
anonymously.
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Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
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rs as we see fit and neither you nor
anyone else may correct us if we do not correctly interpret what you
wrote.
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vey i published my answers:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/imagico/diary/390441
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between mappers and data users that OSM is
built on and depends on however the situation looks very different.
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for
access "by electronic or other means". Inversely the same applies to
the nature of a produced work.
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in a
database-like fashion or more in the form of a finished product ready
for human consumption. The scene geometry for a 3d rendering is quite
clearly more database-like in its use.
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legal
ut use of either automated techniques or
organized/paid mapping in OSM that seriously discusses the ethical and
social questions that arise from it please do so.
If and when this happens then we can have a rational discussion.
--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
t." - Upton Sinclair - See
> https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/
>
> Upton Sinclair is most famous for writing "The Jungle" as a young
> man.
Ah, thanks - that is indeed the likely origin.
--
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/
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ke people understand something if their
livelihood depends on not understanding it.
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ell for things with a
fairly defined amount of information per feature (like buildings,
addresses, POIs) but not for geometrically sophisticated geometries.
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ds,
addresses, shops etc.) and physical geography, which can be mapped just
as densely in areas with no population as in densely populated areas.
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te use numbers or structural
conservativism (which was there first) is not one of them.
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map.org/#map=13/-77.9505/166.6831
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