[OSM-talk-be] Knooppuntennetwerken (Regional walking networks)
I have added quite a few 'knooppunten' of the Rivierenland regional walking network. This information is not available through the Walking Routes wiki page. Recently the Zuid-Dijleland network was added to the wiki page. Therefore people created a collection containing all nodes and routes of this network (as far as they exist). Should such a collection be created for all other knooppunten networks ? If so, can someone update the wiki page to reflect this, so I can properly create and tag that collection for Rivierenland I downloaded the gpx file from Zuid-Dijleland. I was hoping to get the collection of knooppunten as waypoints. The result was disappointing (import in Garmin RoadTrip). Too many routes, even non-existing, waypoints without the number of the knooppunt. Is there a better way to retrieve the information as GPX ? I would already be happy with the knooppunten alone, without the routes between them. I've tried exporting them from JOSM, but this also looses the number (which only exists as rwn_ref). Marc ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Knooppuntennetwerken (Regional walking networks)
Gerard, If you provide me with a detailed example of what data in the osm file, needs to become which information in the gpx, I might try to program this in Python. It's possible to add python scripts to JOSM. Jo (Polyglot) 2011/8/2 Gerard Vanderveken g...@ghia.eu It is not an obligation to have this 'not yet official' collection relation. I got the idea by looking at some Alp paths, where it was used to link all paths of the network. Everyone can add to the Wiki (registration and login required). But if you feel uncomfortable doing edits in a Wiki , I can do it for you, if you send me the relevant data. The relation has to be created first, so the reference can be put in the Wiki For the creation of this specialised GPX, the exporting functions of OSM are not suitabe. There is some programming or script required to put each sub relation into a route and convert the nodes to waypoints. Regards, Gerard. network (as far as they exist). Should such a collection be created for all other knooppunten networks ? If so, can someone update the wiki page to reflect this, so I can properly create and tag that collection for Rivierenland I downloaded the gpx file from Zuid-Dijleland. I was hoping to get the collection of knooppunten as waypoints. The result was disappointing (import in Garmin RoadTrip). Too many routes, even non-existing, waypoints without the number of the knooppunt. Is there a better way to retrieve the information as GPX ? I would already be happy with the knooppunten alone, without the routes between them. I've tried exporting them from JOSM, but this also looses the number (which only exists as rwn_ref). Marc --**--** __**_ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-behttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be __**_ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-behttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Knooppuntennetwerken (Regional walking networks)
As a minimum you require an output file dijleland.gpx like this example ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8 standalone=yes? gpx xmlns=http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1; creator=OSM Route Manager version=1.1 xmlns:xsi=http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance; xsi:schemaLocation=http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd; !-- All data by OpenStreetMap, licensed under cc-by-sa-2.0 (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/). -- wpt lat=50.788708 lon=4.5839511 name301/name /wpt wpt lat=50.788718 lon=4.5839521 name302/name /wpt rte nameDijleland 301-302/name srcOpenStreetMap.org/src typefoot/type rtept lat=50.788708 lon=4.5839511 /rtept rtept lat=50.788709 lon=4.5839515 /rtept rtept lat=50.788718 lon=4.5839521 /rtept /rte rte nameDijleland 302-303/name srcOpenStreetMap.org/src typefoot/type rtept lat=50.788718 lon=4.5839521 /rtept rtept lat=50.788719 lon=4.5839525 /rtept rtept lat=50.788728 lon=4.5839531 /rtept /rte /gpx For every node there is a waypoint element wpt with the coordinates and as name its ref number For every sub relation there is a route element rte It contains route points rtept. These rtept are all the nodes of the ways from the subrelation. The streets and their nodes need to be ordered from start to end node (the ones with the ref tag) Regards, Gerard Jo wrote: Gerard, If you provide me with a detailed example of what data in the osm file, needs to become which information in the gpx, I might try to program this in Python. It's possible to add python scripts to JOSM. Jo (Polyglot) 2011/8/2 Gerard Vanderveken g...@ghia.eu mailto:g...@ghia.eu It is not an obligation to have this 'not yet official' collection relation. I got the idea by looking at some Alp paths, where it was used to link all paths of the network. Everyone can add to the Wiki (registration and login required). But if you feel uncomfortable doing edits in a Wiki , I can do it for you, if you send me the relevant data. The relation has to be created first, so the reference can be put in the Wiki For the creation of this specialised GPX, the exporting functions of OSM are not suitabe. There is some programming or script required to put each sub relation into a route and convert the nodes to waypoints. Regards, Gerard. network (as far as they exist). Should such a collection be created for all other knooppunten networks ? If so, can someone update the wiki page to reflect this, so I can properly create and tag that collection for Rivierenland I downloaded the gpx file from Zuid-Dijleland. I was hoping to get the collection of knooppunten as waypoints. The result was disappointing (import in Garmin RoadTrip). Too many routes, even non-existing, waypoints without the number of the knooppunt. Is there a better way to retrieve the information as GPX ? I would already be happy with the knooppunten alone, without the routes between them. I've tried exporting them from JOSM, but this also looses the number (which only exists as rwn_ref). Marc ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Knooppuntennetwerken (Regional walking networks)
That doesn't look too complicated, I'll look into it, tomorrow. Jo 2011/8/2 Gerard Vanderveken g...@ghia.eu ** As a minimum you require an output file dijleland.gpx like this example ?xml version=1.0 encoding=UTF-8 standalone=yes? gpx xmlns=http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1;http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1creator=OSM Route Manager version=1.1 xmlns:xsi= http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance;http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instancexsi:schemaLocation=http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd;http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd !-- All data by OpenStreetMap, licensed under cc-by-sa-2.0 ( http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/). -- wpt lat=50.788708 lon=4.5839511 name301/name /wpt wpt lat=50.788718 lon=4.5839521 name302/name /wpt rte nameDijleland 301-302/name srcOpenStreetMap.org/src typefoot/type rtept lat=50.788708 lon=4.5839511 /rtept rtept lat=50.788709 lon=4.5839515 /rtept rtept lat=50.788718 lon=4.5839521 /rtept /rte rte nameDijleland 302-303/name srcOpenStreetMap.org/src typefoot/type rtept lat=50.788718 lon=4.5839521 /rtept rtept lat=50.788719 lon=4.5839525 /rtept rtept lat=50.788728 lon=4.5839531 /rtept /rte /gpx For every node there is a waypoint element wpt with the coordinates and as name its ref number For every sub relation there is a route element rte It contains route points rtept. These rtept are all the nodes of the ways from the subrelation. The streets and their nodes need to be ordered from start to end node (the ones with the ref tag) Regards, Gerard Jo wrote: Gerard, If you provide me with a detailed example of what data in the osm file, needs to become which information in the gpx, I might try to program this in Python. It's possible to add python scripts to JOSM. Jo (Polyglot) 2011/8/2 Gerard Vanderveken g...@ghia.eu It is not an obligation to have this 'not yet official' collection relation. I got the idea by looking at some Alp paths, where it was used to link all paths of the network. Everyone can add to the Wiki (registration and login required). But if you feel uncomfortable doing edits in a Wiki , I can do it for you, if you send me the relevant data. The relation has to be created first, so the reference can be put in the Wiki For the creation of this specialised GPX, the exporting functions of OSM are not suitabe. There is some programming or script required to put each sub relation into a route and convert the nodes to waypoints. Regards, Gerard. network (as far as they exist). Should such a collection be created for all other knooppunten networks ? If so, can someone update the wiki page to reflect this, so I can properly create and tag that collection for Rivierenland I downloaded the gpx file from Zuid-Dijleland. I was hoping to get the collection of knooppunten as waypoints. The result was disappointing (import in Garmin RoadTrip). Too many routes, even non-existing, waypoints without the number of the knooppunt. Is there a better way to retrieve the information as GPX ? I would already be happy with the knooppunten alone, without the routes between them. I've tried exporting them from JOSM, but this also looses the number (which only exists as rwn_ref). Marc ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be -- ___ Talk-be mailing listTalk-be@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Hi, Steve Bennett wrote: If your definition of work is guaranteed to work under all circumstances no matter what, then sure. But if it's continue to function subject to a slow rate of linkrot [...] It is even conceivable that, for whatever reason, IDs are changed on a grand scale - for example I expect API 0.7 to introduce some kind of area data type which will likely lead to lots of existing areas being changed in some way and that might include a new ID. Let's avoid that if possible. See, that's exactly my point. Once we allow people to use our internal IDs to link to (and more or less promise them only a slow rate of linkrot), then we drastically reduce our say over our own data. Suddenly certain operations that might totally make sense otherwise fall in the category of aw, but let's not do that, all those people who have hard-coded relation IDs in their applications will fall over. I could even see the discussion of how to model areas in the post-API-0.6 world be influenced by people who say aw, but's let's avoid that if possible, and us choosing the second-best alternative just to placate people who use our internal IDs to link to. OSM IDs are our internal thing and we must keep the freedom to do with them whatever we think makes sense to us, at any time in the future. Vapourware solutions are nice, but when people have a problem today, they need a solution that exists today. Well then let them think of a solution. Using our internal IDs to link to is a vapourvare solution just the same. Anyone who uses them must be aware that they might change at any time, even wholesale. But excuse me now, I'm writing a node renumber script that will keep us in the 32-bit range for half a year longer by re-using the gaps created by deleted nodes ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Andrzej, andrzej zaborowski wrote: Or create an OSM relation containing just the thing you want to link to and reference the relation's Id the editors already support warning when somethign bad happens to a relation member. Under no circumstances should we burden the mapper with keeping up external IDs that someone needs for their application. A relation being edited is not something bad happening, it is something good. We don't want to discourage edits, or make them more complex, just so that someone's linked data store continues to function - that must be *their* job, not the mapper's. Relations are unlikely to be reused for a compeltely new purpose and they can be undeleted and modified to match changes in reality. Just because you cannot think of anything right now doesn't mean that (a) there isn't anything and (b) there won't be anything in the future. If you promise relation ID stability to anyone now, you reduce what *we* can do with *our* data in the future. (One example off the top of my head: Relations for long-distance routes are often created in several places at the same time, then they grow until they meet, and are merged, with one of them being deleted.) Of course you would add a UUID tag only to objects that are actualy referenced. And then you would need some way to enforce uniqueness. Because of the above I'm not sure if you want to enforce uniqueness, you might even want 1 UUIDs per osm entity. I'm not a big fan of UUIDs because, again, it burdens *our* data with stuff that other people want to do with it. We had a lot of discussion about this. Andrzej ist right - if five-star restaurant Chez John is in a listed building, then someone compiling a directory of listed buildings would have to use another UUID than someone compiling a list of good restaurants, because the restaurant could move elsewhere and it would then have to take its UUID with it. Consequently, people have started to use UUID:building and UUID:amenity keys but I really have a very bad feeling about this. Coming back to what Maarten has said above, I would definitely be against adding UUIDs to every single house and garden shed just in case - like the 75.000 uuid:building tags we have. If we were to do UUIDs we would have to have a way of finding out whether something is actually linked, and if it isn't, then don't bother having an UUID. Which brings me back to something I mentioned earlier - I would like to have some kind of link server where you can go and say I want a permanent link to this OSM object, then the server says ok, I have investigated the object you mentioned and I'd say I make the permanent link point to 'a restaurant named Chez John within 500 metres of this location', is that ok, and you go yes, and the server then says your permanent link ID is 1234567890, thank you. At any later time you can query the server for that permanent link ID and you get back either the OSM object, or the current OSM object ID, or nothing if the link is broken. The great thing about such a server would be that the server could indeed *always* know which links are still working and which are broken, and broken links could even be automatically highlighted on something like OpenStreetBugs so anyone who is interested could hunt them down and fix them. The server could also track which links are actually used, and expire them if they aren't used for a year or so. This would make one great project for a student thesis (Claus, are you still reading...?). I don't know if this is compatible with the linked data store idea, maybe explicitly having to register a link is a problem there, but if that's the case then I'd say linked data store is just not for us. And to Steve Bennett (people need a solution now, not vapourware) - sometimes settling for a half-baked solution too early has the risk of entrenching half-bakedness and never getting around to implement a good solution. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
The great thing about such a server would be that the server could indeed *always* know which links are still working and which are broken, and broken links could even be automatically highlighted on something like OpenStreetBugs so anyone who is interested could hunt them down and fix them. The server could also track which links are actually used, and expire them if they aren't used for a year or so. +1 A perfect solution that works over longer periods of time and for any type of data...! ID's in a database are not meant to be linked to and making it harder to edit stuff is not a good option either... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Open Street Map docs and GSoC Doc Summit
hi, I am new to the OSM docs list but I wanted to encourage the Doc team and individuals on the list to apply for the GSoC Documentation Summit (details below): https://sites.google.com/site/docsprintsummit/ You can apply as an individual or a group. Applications close Friday (5th), application process takes about 2-5 mins :) It will be a great summit and focuses on developing concrete outcomes (books) and an unconference to get people talking about free documentation of free software. A great way to meet people in the free doc sector and to attract new comers to your doc team :) adam This is a call for proposals for the 2011 Google Summer of Code Doc Camp. Individuals and projects are invited to submit proposals for the GSoC Doc Camp to be held at Google's Mountain View headquarters (California) 17 October - 21 October. The GSoC Doc Camp is a place for documentors to meet, work on documentation and share their documentation experiences. The camp aims to improve free documentation materials and skills in GSoC projects and individuals and help form the identity of the emergent free documentation sector. The Doc Camp will consist of 2 major components - an unconference and 3-5 short form Book Sprints to produce 'Quick Start' guides for specific GSoC projects. The unconference will explore topics proposed by the participants. Any topic on free documentation of free software can be proposed for discussion during the event. Each Quick Start Sprint will bring together 5-8 individuals to produce a book on a specific GSoC project. All participants of the Doc Camp must attend a sprint. The Quick Start books will be launched at the opening party for the GSoC Mentors summit immediately following the event. Individuals with a passion for free documentation about free software may apply to attend by filling out the application form https://sites.google.com/site/docsprintsummit/registration and submitting before 5 August, 2011. Those wishing to attend do not need to be from a GSoC project. Accommodation and food will be covered by the GSoC Doc Camp. Part or complete travel costs can also be applied for as part of the application process. Quick Start Sprint projects will be chosen from proposals submitted to the GSoC Doc Camp before 5 August, 2011 through the application form https://sites.google.com/site/docsprintsummit/registration. Applications for Quick Start Sprints are invited from projects that are part of the 2011 GSoC program. Quick Start Sprint proposals can nominate up to 5 individuals to attend and participate in the proposed sprint. A Quick Sprint proposal does not have to nominate individuals to participate - you can also use this as an opportunity to promote your project to Doc Camp participants. If the proposal is accepted the accommodation and food costs will be covered by the Doc Camp for any listed individuals and part or complete travel costs for each can be applied for (if applicable). The GSoC Doc Camp is co-organised by GSoC and FLOSS Manuals. Books Sprints and unconference facilitation conducted by Adam Hyde. If you have questions, please contact Carol Smith at car...@google.com and/or Adam Hyde at a...@flossmanuals.net. -- Adam Hyde Founder, FLOSS Manuals Project Manager, Booki Book Sprint Facilitator mobile :+ 49 177 4935122 identi.ca : @eset booki.flossmanuals.net : @adam http://www.flossmanuals.net http://www.booki.cc http://www.booksprints.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
I'm not sure I understand why having the ability to link to external data through some sort of ID is such a bad thing. This is common in many APIs and datasets. It is an opportunity to mix data in new ways as well. Frederik also this seems odd to me I'm not a big fan of UUIDs because, again, it burdens *our* data with stuff that other people want to do with it. Define other people, do you mean mappers, data users? Why aquiesce to use tags at all, making data more consistent just burdens *our* data with stuff other people want to do with it. I think being able to link between datasets can be beneficial. Maybe versioning on the API makes sense, maybe UUIDs, but I don't think the linking is such a bad thing. -Kate On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Andrzej, andrzej zaborowski wrote: Or create an OSM relation containing just the thing you want to link to and reference the relation's Id the editors already support warning when somethign bad happens to a relation member. Under no circumstances should we burden the mapper with keeping up external IDs that someone needs for their application. A relation being edited is not something bad happening, it is something good. We don't want to discourage edits, or make them more complex, just so that someone's linked data store continues to function - that must be *their* job, not the mapper's. Relations are unlikely to be reused for a compeltely new purpose and they can be undeleted and modified to match changes in reality. Just because you cannot think of anything right now doesn't mean that (a) there isn't anything and (b) there won't be anything in the future. If you promise relation ID stability to anyone now, you reduce what *we* can do with *our* data in the future. (One example off the top of my head: Relations for long-distance routes are often created in several places at the same time, then they grow until they meet, and are merged, with one of them being deleted.) Of course you would add a UUID tag only to objects that are actualy referenced. And then you would need some way to enforce uniqueness. Because of the above I'm not sure if you want to enforce uniqueness, you might even want 1 UUIDs per osm entity. I'm not a big fan of UUIDs because, again, it burdens *our* data with stuff that other people want to do with it. We had a lot of discussion about this. Andrzej ist right - if five-star restaurant Chez John is in a listed building, then someone compiling a directory of listed buildings would have to use another UUID than someone compiling a list of good restaurants, because the restaurant could move elsewhere and it would then have to take its UUID with it. Consequently, people have started to use UUID:building and UUID:amenity keys but I really have a very bad feeling about this. Coming back to what Maarten has said above, I would definitely be against adding UUIDs to every single house and garden shed just in case - like the 75.000 uuid:building tags we have. If we were to do UUIDs we would have to have a way of finding out whether something is actually linked, and if it isn't, then don't bother having an UUID. Which brings me back to something I mentioned earlier - I would like to have some kind of link server where you can go and say I want a permanent link to this OSM object, then the server says ok, I have investigated the object you mentioned and I'd say I make the permanent link point to 'a restaurant named Chez John within 500 metres of this location', is that ok, and you go yes, and the server then says your permanent link ID is 1234567890, thank you. At any later time you can query the server for that permanent link ID and you get back either the OSM object, or the current OSM object ID, or nothing if the link is broken. The great thing about such a server would be that the server could indeed *always* know which links are still working and which are broken, and broken links could even be automatically highlighted on something like OpenStreetBugs so anyone who is interested could hunt them down and fix them. The server could also track which links are actually used, and expire them if they aren't used for a year or so. This would make one great project for a student thesis (Claus, are you still reading...?). I don't know if this is compatible with the linked data store idea, maybe explicitly having to register a link is a problem there, but if that's the case then I'd say linked data store is just not for us. And to Steve Bennett (people need a solution now, not vapourware) - sometimes settling for a half-baked solution too early has the risk of entrenching half-bakedness and never getting around to implement a good solution. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Hi, Kate Chapman wrote: I'm not sure I understand why having the ability to link to external data through some sort of ID is such a bad thing. This is about external data linking to us, not vice versa. This is common in many APIs and datasets. It is an opportunity to mix data in new ways as well. That's why it ought to be done right, in a way that places no additional burden on our project. (And if you need proof that it isn't easy - even Navteq and TeleAtlas do not promise stability of their IDs, and indeed they change often.) Frederik also this seems odd to me I'm not a big fan of UUIDs because, again, it burdens *our* data with stuff that other people want to do with it. Define other people, do you mean mappers, data users? I mean the work of mappers becoming more complicated because people who are not mappers want their demands met. For every mapper there are hundreds who want to use our data (and whereas the mapper never receives any money, many of our data users actually make money or save money by using our data). This means, to me, that if data users want to have it easier, want stable linking to OSM or whatever, they ought to shoulder the burden themselves rather than asking us to shoulder it for them IN ADDITION to what we are already doing. And, as I have explained, it would be a simple matter of programming (plus a little funds to run the service) to do this properly. Why aquiesce to use tags at all, making data more consistent just burdens *our* data with stuff other people want to do with it. Like it or not, most of our mappers are in it for the map. That's why they use tags. If most of our mappers were in it for the general idea of a semantic web and a linked data store that encompasses the planet, things might look different. I think being able to link between datasets can be beneficial. Maybe versioning on the API makes sense, maybe UUIDs, but I don't think the linking is such a bad thing. My main point was that any additional burden caused for us by linking - be that a reuirement for constant IDs, the introduction of additional tags, or warnings that pop up when someone tries to make an otherwise normal edit - is hard to accept for me, and I'd prefer a third-party service that does all this without affecting us negatively. It's technically possible so if someone is really eager to have proper linking then why not just do it. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Frederik Ramm wrote: Which brings me back to something I mentioned earlier - I would like to have some kind of link server where you can go and say I want a permanent link to this OSM object, then the server says ok, I have investigated the object you mentioned and I'd say I make the permanent link point to 'a restaurant named Chez John within 500 metres of this location', is that ok, and you go yes, and the server then says your permanent link ID is 1234567890, thank you. At any later time you can query the server for that permanent link ID and you get back either the OSM object, or the current OSM object ID, or nothing if the link is broken. Yes. Absolutely spot on. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blatant-case-of-tagging-for-the-renderer-tp6633546p6644269.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:31 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: And to Steve Bennett (people need a solution now, not vapourware) - sometimes settling for a half-baked solution too early has the risk of entrenching half-bakedness and never getting around to implement a good solution. Right. With an ever evolving project like OSM we need to find creative ways to support existing usage, but not lock ourselves into a bad long term solution. One way to do this, using your link server idea would be to support a legacy ID query mode, eg /legacyid/xyz which points to whatever object had xyz on a given cutover date. At some future date, we renumber all the IDs, breaking everything, but all the services that point to those IDs could just point to the legacyid/ service instead. It's a break, but it's a trival one to fix. Meanwhile new services would be built around the persistent id service, requesting permanent handles as required. (You do have the problem defining what it is that you want to persistently link to: the way? the relation? the relation with the members that it had when you linked to it?) Just brainstorming... Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Kate Chapman wrote: Why aquiesce to use tags at all, making data more consistent just burdens *our* data with stuff other people want to do with it. It is impossible to create a map that displays buildings if no one adds buildings to the database. Adding buildings requires effort, but it is _necessary_ effort for something that many mappers want our data to be used for. Linking to OSM, however, is entirely possible without placing an additional burden on mappers: Implement a service that resolves queries for OSM objects. Therefore, manually maintaining IDs in the database is an unnecessary waste of mappers' time. Besides the effort required for manual ID maintenance, I think that manual IDs would even turn out to be semantically questionable. They cannot easily represent which aspects of the object are referenced by the ID. If a restaurant moves, should it keep the same ID? If it is renamed? If it goes bankrupt, is sold, renovated, and reopened by a different owner? Setting up a query would ideally encode your intentions - do you e.g. query for restaurant at address or restaurant with name/owner in town? A mapper maintaining a restaurant ID has no chance to know the intentions of people linking to the restaurant, and it is easily possible that different people even use that same ID with incompatible intentions. -- Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] all POIs within a specific radius
hi, how would I get all POIs within a specific radius (in metres) from a specific point by querying the osm db? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] all POIs within a specific radius
On 8/2/2011 7:05 AM, kenneth gonsalves wrote: hi, how would I get all POIs within a specific radius (in metres) from a specific point by querying the osm db? If a square rather than a circle is fine, try XAPI: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Xapi . ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] all POIs within a specific radius
On 08/02/2011 01:05 PM, kenneth gonsalves wrote: hi, how would I get all POIs within a specific radius (in metres) from a specific point by querying the osm db? Any kind of POI or a certain list of tags? Have you tried the Overpass API? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API#Around Paul ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] all POIs within a specific radius
On Tue, 2011-08-02 at 07:49 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 8/2/2011 7:05 AM, kenneth gonsalves wrote: hi, how would I get all POIs within a specific radius (in metres) from a specific point by querying the osm db? If a square rather than a circle is fine, try XAPI: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Xapi . actually I am looking for an sql query. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] all POIs within a specific radius
On Tue, 2011-08-02 at 14:05 +0200, Paul Hartmann wrote: On 08/02/2011 01:05 PM, kenneth gonsalves wrote: hi, how would I get all POIs within a specific radius (in metres) from a specific point by querying the osm db? Any kind of POI or a certain list of tags? Have you tried the Overpass API? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API#Around looks good - the exact query I want is to get all the localities within a radius of 30 kms from a particular point. I will explore this. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] all POIs within a specific radius
Hi, On 08/02/11 14:13, kenneth gonsalves wrote: actually I am looking for an sql query. That would typically be done using the st_dwithin function. That function internally makes a bounding box comparison, thereby taking advantage of any geographic indexes you might have, and only then checks the actual distance. But note that the actual distance is always in projection units, i.e. if you have spherical mercator then it will be approximately meters, but not really meters. If you want proper meters, look up st_distance_sphere and st_distance_spheroid and/or think about converting from geometry to geography data type. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
On 02/08/2011 11:08, Frederik Ramm wrote: Well then let them think of a solution. Using our internal IDs to link to is a vapourvare solution just the same. Anyone who uses them must be aware that they might change at any time, even wholesale. Exactly. OSM does not cause buildings to be created or roads to be built or restaurants to be opened. Very many real-world objects already have a stable unique identifier. Every time a building is constructed, a new ID is created in the list of all buildings maintained by some governmental organisation. Every time a railway station is built it gets an ID in the list maintained by the railway operator. Every time a company is created it gets a company number in some administration or other. Just add these external IDs to the OSM data, together with an indication of the relevant authority. Example: Victoria Station in London is known by the unique identifier VIC in the list of stations maintained by Network Rail. So it might have tags ref=VIC and source:ref=Network Rail. There's your stable ID: whenever you want to find it, query on these tags. Of course performance would likely be a major issue here, but that is probably not insurmountable and anyway should not be used as an excuse for not doing the Right Thing. Colin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Geofabrik extracts using different software
Hi, just a quick heads-up to people using the Geofabrik extracts on download.geofabrik.de - I'm currently trying out a new splitting software and will gradually upgrade all extracts to complete-ways mode, i.e. just like with a request from the API, all ways will be complete even if they cross the extract polygon, and all required nodes will be contained. I hope that relation references will also be handled well. If you find anything strange or broken in the coming days, please drop me a note. The program I'm using is an Osmium-based splitter written by Peter Koerner, which I believe he'll announce somewhere round here in due course. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Hi, Am Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:21:44 +0200 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: That was me. There are a number of other reasons why IDs could break. One is the expansion of POI nodes into buildings that Toby mentioned. Another is the splitting of ways (old ID would then point to only half) or merging (old ID would become invalid in 50% of cases). Same with the re-structuring of relations or the re-mapping of stuff in the course of the license change. It is a logically inaccurate to delete an ID in such cases. What you actually logically do is replacing an ID, or creating an alias. The problem is there is no semantic in OSM data to express such a move operation. Deleting is the wrong one. Deleting means a destroyed house or physically removed street and in this case it is logically correct that the ID is gone. So my proposal is to describe move operations in OSM data. For example: Instead of deleting, all tags of the object or removed and a alias_for joined_with splitted_to tag(s) which points to the new correct node(s) ID is inserted to the old node . Than external programs can find the proper one with the old id and the OSM data gets richer and more accurate. -- Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Hi, On 08/02/11 15:21, Gregor Horvath wrote: It is a logically inaccurate to delete an ID in such cases. What you actually logically do is replacing an ID, or creating an alias. The problem is there is no semantic in OSM data to express such a move operation. Deleting is the wrong one. Deleting means a destroyed house or physically removed street and in this case it is logically correct that the ID is gone. No. You are entirely mistaken in applying that kind of semantic to OSM. When a mapper maps a street, or a building, or anything, the ID is just a throwaway by-product of that process which allows us to refer to the object internally. The mapper does not willingly say: I hereby assign the following ID to you, house, to remain with you until you are destroyed! Therefore, IDs in OSM can be torn down, changed, even renumbered at will without there being *any* semantic reflecting on the actual physical object. What we have in OSM are models of physical objects, and these models may change, merge, vanish, be duplicated, modified, extended, or reduced without anyone saying oh, this must mean that the physical house now has got an extra feature!. Deleting an object in OSM only becomes logically inaccurate if one makes the semantic connection that you are making (deleted object - demolished house), but in fact it is that connection that is logically baseless. (For example, we would also delete an object if we find out that it was wrongly imported or taken from an unsuitable source, just to mention the most obvious examples.) So my proposal is to describe move operations in OSM data. For example: Instead of deleting, all tags of the object or removed and a alias_for joined_with splitted_to tag(s) which points to the new correct node(s) ID is inserted to the old node . This is an interesting idea that would often make it easier to find out what someone has done in an editing session - has he shortened one way and created another new way, or has he simply split one? But it should not be confused with ID persistence. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Gregor Horvath gre...@ediwo.com wrote: Hi, Am Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:21:44 +0200 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: That was me. There are a number of other reasons why IDs could break. One is the expansion of POI nodes into buildings that Toby mentioned. Another is the splitting of ways (old ID would then point to only half) or merging (old ID would become invalid in 50% of cases). Same with the re-structuring of relations or the re-mapping of stuff in the course of the license change. It is a logically inaccurate to delete an ID in such cases. What you actually logically do is replacing an ID, or creating an alias. The problem is there is no semantic in OSM data to express such a move operation. Deleting is the wrong one. Deleting means a destroyed house or physically removed street and in this case it is logically correct that the ID is gone. So my proposal is to describe move operations in OSM data. For example: Instead of deleting, all tags of the object or removed and a alias_for joined_with splitted_to tag(s) which points to the new correct node(s) ID is inserted to the old node . Than external programs can find the proper one with the old id and the OSM data gets richer and more accurate. -- Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Preferably split_to, rather than splitted_to, since there is no such English word as splitted. Otherwise, this sounds like a good idea. Note that there might need to be multiple instances of such a tag, with some form of version information as part of the value. For example, a POI node might later be joined to be part of an area representing a shop; this shop area might later be joined to others to represent an entire building that contains several shops. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Am Tue, 02 Aug 2011 15:43:54 +0200 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, On 08/02/11 15:21, Gregor Horvath wrote: It is a logically inaccurate to delete an ID in such cases. What you actually logically do is replacing an ID, or creating an alias. The problem is there is no semantic in OSM data to express such a move operation. Deleting is the wrong one. Deleting means a destroyed house or physically removed street and in this case it is logically correct that the ID is gone. No. You are entirely mistaken in applying that kind of semantic to OSM. When a mapper maps a street, or a building, or anything, the ID is just a throwaway by-product of that process which allows us to refer to the object internally. The mapper does not willingly say: I hereby assign the following ID to you, house, to remain with you until you are destroyed! OSM provides uri's to ID's which are linked to names of physical objects. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1381574156 IN HTTP world URI's should be stable and a request for a moved object should return an HTTP Status code of 301 ( Moved Permanently) instead of 404 (Not Found). The same logic should apply to OSM ID's/URI's Deleting an object in OSM only becomes logically inaccurate if one makes the semantic connection that you are making (deleted object - demolished house), but in fact it is that connection that is logically baseless. (For example, we would also delete an object if we find out that it was wrongly imported or taken from an unsuitable source, just to mention the most obvious examples.) These are also valid cases for a not found 404. I am not against deleting at all. There are perfectly valid cases for that. I propose to add the possibility to model a move. (Not a must, like any other tagging in OSM) This is an interesting idea that would often make it easier to find out what someone has done in an editing session - has he shortened one way and created another new way, or has he simply split one? But it should not be confused with ID persistence. Yes, I am not for total ID persistence, because as I said there _are_ valid cases for deleting an ID. But a move, join or rename is not a delete operation. -- Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Kate Chapman wrote: I'm not sure I understand why having the ability to link to external data through some sort of ID is such a bad thing. This is about external data linking to us, not vice versa. This is common in many APIs and datasets. It is an opportunity to mix data in new ways as well. That's why it ought to be done right, in a way that places no additional burden on our project. (And if you need proof that it isn't easy - even Navteq and TeleAtlas do not promise stability of their IDs, and indeed they change often.) They don't promise you that they won't change, but I've worked on applications that used their IDs as a helper between updates. I'm not saying we have to make sure all the IDs stay the same. I just think we shouldn't for example swap all of them. If it isn't any extra work at the moment to have 90% stability I don't think that is a bad thing. If all the IDs have to be redone at some point I would hope a look-up would be made at some point. (I realize that someone could do this without putting an additional burden on the community). For every mapper there are hundreds who want to use our data (and whereas the mapper never receives any money, many of our data users actually make money or save money by using our data). This means, to me, that if data users want to have it easier, want stable linking to OSM or whatever, they ought to shoulder the burden themselves rather than asking us to shoulder it for them IN ADDITION to what we are already doing. And, as I have explained, it would be a simple matter of programming (plus a little funds to run the service) to do this properly. Why aquiesce to use tags at all, making data more consistent just burdens *our* data with stuff other people want to do with it. Like it or not, most of our mappers are in it for the map. That's why they use tags. If most of our mappers were in it for the general idea of a semantic web and a linked data store that encompasses the planet, things might look different. I think being able to link between datasets can be beneficial. Maybe versioning on the API makes sense, maybe UUIDs, but I don't think the linking is such a bad thing. My main point was that any additional burden caused for us by linking - be that a reuirement for constant IDs, the introduction of additional tags, or warnings that pop up when someone tries to make an otherwise normal edit - is hard to accept for me, and I'd prefer a third-party service that does all this without affecting us negatively. It's technically possible so if someone is really eager to have proper linking then why not just do it. I'm not advocating for this either. Many of the tools are difficult enough for people to get started on. Though this is certainly getting better. -Kate ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Hi, On 08/02/11 16:06, Gregor Horvath wrote: OSM provides uri's to ID's which are linked to names of physical objects. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1381574156 IN HTTP world URI's should be stable Well maybe then we should stop providing URIs if this gives people the wrong impression ;) and a request for a moved object should return an HTTP Status code of 301 ( Moved Permanently) instead of 404 (Not Found). I think you are again making the mistake of mixing various layers of meaning. If someone deletes an object in OSM to trace it anew, from better imagery for example, then he is creating a new model, and the old model ceases to exist. It is perfectly ok for a link to the old model to return 404. (On the other hand, it may be possible for someone to move a model of a house in OSM by 200 metres and the HTTP return code would still not be 301 ;) The same logic should apply to OSM ID's/URI's As I said, if there is a mistake here then it is probably in your expectation, not in what OSM is doing; and it may be our fault to have given you that expectation by using a REST interface. We should take care to make clear on the Wiki that OSM is a database of models of things - models that may vanish at any time - and not a database of things. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Gregor Horvath wrote: OSM provides uri's to ID's which are linked to names of physical objects. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1381574156 No. It doesn't. OSM does not provide URIs to anyone. OSM has an _editing_ API. It's here to facilitate edits to the end product, which is a collaborative map. The IDs are an internal convenience for editing - internal, that is to the OSM editing experience. They are not an outward-facing product that is provided to all-comers. The editing API is provided in order to edit the map data, not for read-only purposes or projects. (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/API) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blatant-case-of-tagging-for-the-renderer-tp6633546p6645068.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
2011/8/2 Gregor Horvath gre...@ediwo.com: OSM provides uri's to ID's which are linked to names of physical objects. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1381574156 But these objects often make no sense in the real world! In the real world, there are things like streets, pubs, counties and hospitals, which have geometry (and other properties). In the OSM database, in contrast, there are pieces of geometry, subdivided according to topology into points (nodes), linestrings (ways), and everything else (relations), which have thingyness. The relation between OSM objects and real-world objects is quite hairy and probably depends on what sort of real-world object you are intrested in at the moment (is a hospital a place to get yourself stitched back together after falling of the bike while mapping, or a contender for largest building in a 5km radius from home?). I am beginning to suspect that the only sensible use for the OSM database, is as input data to a processing step that converts it to something more usable for a specific task. Using it as is is a recipe for headaches. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. The database is extremely flexible and can accommodate almost any sort of geographic information one cares to throw at it, it just takes some programming to use it! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Hi, Am Tue, 02 Aug 2011 16:32:29 +0200 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: I think you are again making the mistake of mixing various layers of meaning. If someone deletes an object in OSM to trace it anew, from better imagery for example, then he is creating a new model, and the old model ceases to exist. It is perfectly ok for a link to the old model to return 404. If someone is doing a web page describing a car (ie a model of a physical car) and he decides to make the description of that car (ie the web page) prettier then what I expect as a user of this web page is that the old URI's are still valid. (HTTP 301 or 200) If he does a complete redesign of his website, then I expect links to be broken. (404) It depends on the case. The problem with OSM is, that a move of an object abstraction (ie the ID) like HTTP 301 is not possible yet. (On the other hand, it may be possible for someone to move a model of a house in OSM by 200 metres and the HTTP return code would still not be 301 ;) The same logic should apply to OSM ID's/URI's As I said, if there is a mistake here then it is probably in your expectation, not in what OSM is doing; and it may be our fault to have given you that expectation by using a REST interface. We should take care to make clear on the Wiki that OSM is a database of models of things - models that may vanish at any time - and not a database of things. All I expect is logic. It is irrelevant if an OSM ID describes an object or a model of an object. Because models can also be moved, therefore there should be a possibility to move the model ID. -- Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
Am Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:55:20 +0200 schrieb Ture Pålsson t...@lysator.liu.se: 2011/8/2 Gregor Horvath gre...@ediwo.com: OSM provides uri's to ID's which are linked to names of physical objects. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1381574156 But these objects often make no sense in the real world! Correct. Because all the URI above says is that there is a node with an ID 1381574156. It does not say anything about a physical object at all. And that is a good thing, because actually the node is only a point on a map. Now if this node (point on a map) is replaced with another one by a fellow mapper (for whatever reason), I think it would be a progress if ID 1381574156 points to the new node instead of vanishing. This has absolutely nothing to do with physical objects or OSM to be a database of things. -- Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
For what it's worth Flickr often had a similar conversation with the Y!Geo / WOE kids, especially in the early days when we were just getting to know one another. The short version is that we were simply not going to use their IDs if they couldn't guarantee that they has some measure of permanence and reliability. We were not in a position (time or technology-wise) to run a full geo-stack so we needed to use those IDs as bridges back to the details. Once we all agreed on that the next question became what constituted a significant change in the meaning of an ID. For example, some WOE IDs would be updated to fix a typo in the name but others would change place type (a neighbourhood might become an historical town) which was ... always an issue. Our suggestion was that WOE start to include a pair of properties with each record: supersedes and superseded_by. These were simply meant to be pointers to and from other WOE ID and was predicated on the assumption that numbers (especially 64-bit ints) are cheap. We were fine with needing to do the work to pay attention to the fact that something had been updated and follow the breadcrumbs accordingly. Sadly, it never happened. The corollary to this idea are start/end dates which Frankie Roberto touched on at SOTM 2009. [1] Also a good thing but since this is a thread about UIDs I'll just set that aside for now :-) I'm not going to pretend to understand the guts of the OSM code well enough to suggest that supersedes/superseded_by would be easy to implement or not but it's always seemed like a useful approach to me. Cheers, -- [1] http://www.vimeo.com/5843154 On 8/2/11 7:55 AM, Ture Pålsson wrote: 2011/8/2 Gregor Horvathgre...@ediwo.com: OSM provides uri's to ID's which are linked to names of physical objects. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1381574156 But these objects often make no sense in the real world! In the real world, there are things like streets, pubs, counties and hospitals, which have geometry (and other properties). In the OSM database, in contrast, there are pieces of geometry, subdivided according to topology into points (nodes), linestrings (ways), and everything else (relations), which have thingyness. The relation between OSM objects and real-world objects is quite hairy and probably depends on what sort of real-world object you are intrested in at the moment (is a hospital a place to get yourself stitched back together after falling of the bike while mapping, or a contender for largest building in a 5km radius from home?). I am beginning to suspect that the only sensible use for the OSM database, is as input data to a processing step that converts it to something more usable for a specific task. Using it as is is a recipe for headaches. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. The database is extremely flexible and can accommodate almost any sort of geographic information one cares to throw at it, it just takes some programming to use it! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
On Tuesday, August 2, 2011 10:14:13 AM UTC-5, Gregor Horvath wrote: Now if this node (point on a map) is replaced with another one by a fellow mapper (for whatever reason), I think it would be a progress if ID 1381574156 points to the new node instead of vanishing. Who or what decides that the ID 1381574156 should move rather than disappear? If it is to be a computer algorithm, who writes it? What happens when a node tagged as a pub turns into a way tagged as the same pub? Maybe it turns into a relation (because it is a multipolygon)? If it is to be a human, who will do it? I agree with Frederik: the mapper shouldn't be burdened with dragging a UUID around everywhere. Maybe the editor could ask the user You just deleted this pub. Did you mean to move it instead? The editors will then become enormously more complex than they already are. This sounds a lot like the conversation we're already having elsewhere in this thread. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
straup str...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not going to pretend to understand the guts of the OSM code well enough to suggest that supersedes/superseded_by would be easy to implement or not but it's always seemed like a useful approach to me. This supersedes / is superseded by approach would work, although there would need to be provision for a database object to supersede multiple objects (a merge operation) or be superseded by several objects (a split operation). -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] What is an ID?
Rather than comment on the id stability thread, I though it better to turn the question around ... In my own data trail, an ID *IS* unique, and is directly linked to the piece of data it relates to. If I change the data then the version number goes up. If I delete the data, then the ID number remains since it identifies the HISTORY relating to that item. The idea that someone is going to 'reuse' id's because they are no being used raises alarm bells. I thought we had history relating to every element nowadays, so how do you know what the history relates to if you reuse the ID? Also the idea of 'renumbering' everything is equally alarming, given that every old changeset would have to be updated? If we are running out of ID's, then a switch to 64 bit is an urgent requirement simply to prevent the existing data and history trail from being corrupted. Now having said all that ... USING the internal ID for external purposes, while potentially practical, is not the most sensible way forward as has been highlighted in several ways. I'm probably in agreement on a 'link server' approach, but I think that there are a number of areas where additional 'ID's need to be stored in the database and managed in parallel. Postcodes, bus/tramstop id's, Airport codes, telephone area codes, and so on. We had a little discussion on parallel databases, and that slots in with the 'link server', but I think that in order to make ANY parallel database system work, then the core ID's have to be stable and consistent, even if they do return 'deleted' ... at which point on needs to be able to ask 'why' and possibly roll back a change that should not have happened? If a item has history then it's ID can't be reused. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/xxx/history simply has to be consistent? Then what may be missing IS a tag for 'split_from' or 'merged_with' but the linked ID's must also be consistent? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
2011/8/2 Ian ian.d...@gmail.com: On Tuesday, August 2, 2011 10:14:13 AM UTC-5, Gregor Horvath wrote: Now if this node (point on a map) is replaced with another one by a fellow mapper (for whatever reason), I think it would be a progress if ID 1381574156 points to the new node instead of vanishing. Who or what decides that the ID 1381574156 should move rather than disappear? If it is to be a computer algorithm, who writes it? What happens when a node tagged as a pub turns into a way tagged as the same pub? Maybe it turns into a relation (because it is a multipolygon)? With current semantics it is not possible to decide where to go with an ID if an object gets changed. Many objects have tags like building=yes, amenity=xy on them, and you can't even tell from the data whether name is referring to the building or to the amenity. How would you know whether the ID was used for the building or for the service inside the building? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] A case for CT + CC-BY-SA
I suggest to mark all CC-BY-SA-only objects with a licence-tag instead of deleting them automatically! Start offering zwo plant dumps, one CC-BY-SA-only and one ODbL-only, and than let the users decide which they want to use! We should only start thinking about removing the CC-BY-SA-only licenced export after both dumps contain identical data or someone really successfully abuses problems of the CC-BY-SA licence! Doing a massive data deletion of all non-ODbL data is just destructive and useless. Especially because nothing forces us to do so! Non-ODbL data will vanish over time by itself. Regards phobie On 23.07.2011 18:11, Tobias Knerr wrote: In a nutshell: The Contributor Terms give the OSMF the right to publish OSM data under the terms of the CC-BY-SA. I suggest that the OSMF should use that right, and *continue to publish the OSM database under CC-BY-SA* after the end of the license change process. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What is an ID?
Richard Mann wrote: I think he was joking about reusing ids (he was illustrating the point with the sort of daft temporary fix that someone might do ... if they were daft) Well someone has set up the system to reuse them http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1/history THAT is a joke :( PLEASE can someone disable that corruption before it goes too far? On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Rather than comment on the id stability thread, I though it better to turn the question around ... In my own data trail, an ID *IS* unique, and is directly linked to the piece of data it relates to. If I change the data then the version number goes up. If I delete the data, then the ID number remains since it identifies the HISTORY relating to that item. The idea that someone is going to 'reuse' id's because they are no being used raises alarm bells. I thought we had history relating to every element nowadays, so how do you know what the history relates to if you reuse the ID? Also the idea of 'renumbering' everything is equally alarming, given that every old changeset would have to be updated? If we are running out of ID's, then a switch to 64 bit is an urgent requirement simply to prevent the existing data and history trail from being corrupted. Now having said all that ... USING the internal ID for external purposes, while potentially practical, is not the most sensible way forward as has been highlighted in several ways. I'm probably in agreement on a 'link server' approach, but I think that there are a number of areas where additional 'ID's need to be stored in the database and managed in parallel. Postcodes, bus/tramstop id's, Airport codes, telephone area codes, and so on. We had a little discussion on parallel databases, and that slots in with the 'link server', but I think that in order to make ANY parallel database system work, then the core ID's have to be stable and consistent, even if they do return 'deleted' ... at which point on needs to be able to ask 'why' and possibly roll back a change that should not have happened? If a item has history then it's ID can't be reused. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/xxx/history simply has to be consistent? Then what may be missing IS a tag for 'split_from' or 'merged_with' but the linked ID's must also be consistent? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What is an ID?
On 02/08/11 18:43, Lester Caine wrote: Richard Mann wrote: I think he was joking about reusing ids (he was illustrating the point with the sort of daft temporary fix that someone might do ... if they were daft) Well someone has set up the system to reuse them http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1/history THAT is a joke :( PLEASE can someone disable that corruption before it goes too far? Nobody has setup a system to reuse anything. All you are seeing there is the result of badly written programs and the like doing perfectly normal REST writes to node 1. When such mistakes are made people revert them. Shit happens, and we deal with it. How exactly do you suggest that we disable that corruption? Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] fundraiser for the mappers in Kibera
Talk Give them a few bucks, they just wanna map! http://www.globalgiving.org/projects/turning-maps-into-action-in-kibera/ If we meet our goal this month, we get a permanent spot on the site. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What is an ID?
Tom Hughes wrote: On 02/08/11 18:43, Lester Caine wrote: Richard Mann wrote: I think he was joking about reusing ids (he was illustrating the point with the sort of daft temporary fix that someone might do ... if they were daft) Well someone has set up the system to reuse them http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1/history THAT is a joke :( PLEASE can someone disable that corruption before it goes too far? Nobody has setup a system to reuse anything. All you are seeing there is the result of badly written programs and the like doing perfectly normal REST writes to node 1. When such mistakes are made people revert them. Shit happens, and we deal with it. How exactly do you suggest that we disable that corruption? I just started at '1' to see how good things were, and a few of the nodes I then worked through showed questionable changes ... Actually it's interesting looking at some of the raw history. There are a block below 1400, many of which are original nodes, but some seem to have these strange edits, then there is a jump to 77858, which I presume was a hick-up somewhere along the line very early on, except that the 1300 series nodes post date 77858, so something is/was going wrong somewhere? Some of these early node numbers have been edited earlier this year ... Shit happens, and we deal with it. still has the problem of identifying where the shit has happened and working out how to deal with it. Increasingly looking at the history I've been spotting places where useful tags have been removed when later edits were added but there is no mechanism to flag what is being deleted? I've not noted down the node numbers, but a series of edits relating to wheelchair access seem to have removed the name or other tags rather than maintaining them ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 12:32 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I think you are again making the mistake of mixing various layers of meaning. If someone deletes an object in OSM to trace it anew, from better imagery for example, then he is creating a new model, and the old model ceases to exist. It is perfectly ok for a link to the old model to return 404. Presumably you're being facetious, and know full well that what we're talking about is the use case of people using OSM links to link to a surrogate for a real world object, rather than the OSM link itself. When I linked from Wikipedia to an OSM relation describing a bike path, it's because that OSM relation is the most precise description of the bike path available on the web. As I said, if there is a mistake here then it is probably in your expectation, not in what OSM is doing; and it may be our fault to have given you that expectation by using a REST interface. We should take care to make clear on the Wiki that OSM is a database of models of things - models that may vanish at any time - and not a database of things. Is it really the case that we don't want the OSM servers to provide useful read-only services? How come? Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-br] Imagens Aéreas do Estado de Minas Gerais
Eae Samuel, alguma novidade? Em 20 de julho de 2011 12:18, teste e...@ymail.com escreveu: Fala Samuel, Impressionante essa burocracia hein. Por isso é interessante que seja votado logo no Brasil o Projeto de lei que regula o acesso a informação, pois um dos artigos menciona justamente essa questão de não dificultar o acesso. Veja parte do projeto de lei: CAPÍTULO III DO PROCEDIMENTO DE ACESSO À INFORMAÇÃO Seção I Do Pedido de Acesso Art. 10. Qualquer interessado poderá apresentar pedido deacessoainformaçõesaos órgãos e entidades referidos no art. 1o desta Lei, por qualquer meio legítimo, devendo opedido conter a identificação do requerente e a especificação da informação requerida. §1o Para o acessoa informações de interesse público,aidentificação do requerente não pode conter exigências que inviabilizem a solicitação. § 2o Os órgãos e entidades do poder público devem viabilizar alternativa de encaminhamento de pedidos de acesso por meio de seus sítios oficiais na internet. *§ 3o São vedadas quaisquer exigências relativas aos* *motivos determinantesdasolicitação de informações de * *interesse público.* Enfim, mantenha-nos informado. Valeu srcv...@minaslivre.org escreveu: On Sex, 2011-07-01 at 20:15 -0300, teste wrote: Eae Samuel, novidades? Fiz contato com o pessoal e recebi um retorno, desculpe a demora. Me pediram um documento mais formal, com algumas informações sobre a finalidade. Irei enviar um documento formal, caso ainda assim dificultem, penso em pedir ao pessoal da fundação para enviar uma solicitação diretamente para eles. Mando notícias. Abraço, -- Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br ___ Talk-br mailing list Talk-br@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Moin! Am 02.08.2011 00:34, schrieb Stephan Knauss: On 02.08.2011 00:05, Nils Faerber wrote: Hmm... mir ist eben aufgefallen, daß die Ausstrahlungskarte hier: http://www.digitalradio.de/index.php/digitale-radioprogramme verdächtig nach einer OSM basierten Karte aussieht. Wenn dem so ist, dann haben die leider die Attributierung an OSM vergessen, da stehen nur zwei Firmen drunter. Müßte da dann nicht auch ein Hinweis auf OSM stehen? Was macht man da am besten? Schlimmer noch: Es werden die Tiles vom Hauptserver gezogen. Am besten eine freundliche email, gratulieren dass sie die Karte nehmen. Freundlich darum bitten einen anderen Tileserver zu verwenden, z.B. mapquest. Und dann noch bitten auch die Quelle der Karte zu nennen. Das mit dem Tileserver verstehe ich nicht - entschuldigt, aber damit habe ich mich noch nicht so recht beschäftigt. Wo ist da das Problem bzw. was ist der Vorteil, den anderen Server zu verwenden? Und Mapquest ist doch ein kommerzieller Dienst, wenn ich das richtig sehe? Das die Digitalreadio'ler OSM verwenden ist doch gut, wenn sie es richtig attributieren würden. Warum sollte man die also in die Arme eine kommerziellen Dienstes schicken? Machst du das? Mache ich gerne. Nur bräuchte ich ggf. noch etwas Info zu dme Serverproblem, da ich denen das dann gerne erlkären können wollte ;) http://www.digitalradio.de/index.php/kontakt-footer Vielen Dank! Stephan Viele Grüße nils -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 http://www.kernelconcepts.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Schlimmer noch: Es werden die Tiles vom Hauptserver gezogen. Das mit dem Tileserver verstehe ich nicht - entschuldigt, aber damit habe ich mich noch nicht so recht beschäftigt. Wo ist da das Problem bzw. was ist der Vorteil, den anderen Server zu verwenden? der Tileserver auf OSM.org ist ein Service für die Mapper und eine Demo, was in unseren Daten steckt. Die Nutzungsbedingungen sind hier: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy Für private Seiten mit wenigen Zugriffen kann man den Dienst nutzen, aber wenn man eine professionelle Seite mit vielen Zugriffen betreibt, darf man das nicht mehr. Dann sollte man entweder einen Tileserver von Dritten benutzen (mapquest erlaubt z.B. die Nutzung, daher der Hinweis darauf), oder einen eigenen Server aufsetzen. Und Mapquest ist doch ein kommerzieller Dienst, wenn ich das richtig sehe? die Nutzung ist kostenlos, betrieben wird das von AOL. Gruß Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Am 02.08.2011 11:06, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: Schlimmer noch: Es werden die Tiles vom Hauptserver gezogen. Das mit dem Tileserver verstehe ich nicht - entschuldigt, aber damit habe ich mich noch nicht so recht beschäftigt. Wo ist da das Problem bzw. was ist der Vorteil, den anderen Server zu verwenden? der Tileserver auf OSM.org ist ein Service für die Mapper und eine Demo, was in unseren Daten steckt. Die Nutzungsbedingungen sind hier: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy Für private Seiten mit wenigen Zugriffen kann man den Dienst nutzen, aber wenn man eine professionelle Seite mit vielen Zugriffen betreibt, darf man das nicht mehr. Dann sollte man entweder einen Tileserver von Dritten benutzen (mapquest erlaubt z.B. die Nutzung, daher der Hinweis darauf), oder einen eigenen Server aufsetzen. Ah, verstehe, OK. Und Mapquest ist doch ein kommerzieller Dienst, wenn ich das richtig sehe? die Nutzung ist kostenlos, betrieben wird das von AOL. Aber kein OSM mehr, oder? Das fände ich dann etwas über das Ziel hinaus geschossen. es ist doch toll, wenn sie OSM weiter verwendeten. Ich würde mal tippen, daß die den Tile-Server verwenden liegt daran, daß sie keinen eigenen aufsetzen wollten. Gäbe es noch OSM basierte Alternativen? Andererseits wenn sie schon ihr Empfangsgebiete-Overlay selbst machen, dann sollten sie doch in der Lage sein Tiles zu rendern? Na gut, ich weise sie mal drauf hin, mal sehen was passiert. Gruß Martin Viele Grüße nils -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 http://www.kernelconcepts.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Hallo, Nils Faerber wrote: Und Mapquest ist doch ein kommerzieller Dienst, wenn ich das richtig sehe? die Nutzung ist kostenlos, betrieben wird das von AOL. Aber kein OSM mehr, oder? Doch, das sind auch OSM-Daten bei Mapquest, und die sind auch fuer die gewerbliche Nutzung kostenlos. Der Stil ist sogar etwas einfacher als der bei OSM, so dass sie sich besser als Hintergrundkarte eignen. Ich würde mal tippen, daß die den Tile-Server verwenden liegt daran, daß sie keinen eigenen aufsetzen wollten. Ja. Das ist naheliegend. Viele denken auch, bloss weil OSM-Daten frei sind, duerfte man natuerlich auch den OSM-Server beliebig nutzen. Eine strenge Grenze gibt es da auch nicht; ich vermute mal, dass die Anfragen von digitalradio.de nur einen Bruchteil von dem ausmachen, was diverse coole iPhone- und Android-Applikationen machen, bei denen man sich Karten aufs Geraet laden kann ;) dennoch sagt die Tile Usage Policy, dass man sich als Heavy User anderswo umsehen soll. Gäbe es noch OSM basierte Alternativen? Ja, zum Beispiel Cloudmade und meine Firma, die Geofabrik. Andererseits wenn sie schon ihr Empfangsgebiete-Overlay selbst machen, dann sollten sie doch in der Lage sein Tiles zu rendern? Aktuelle Tiles zu rendern ist gar nicht so leicht. Das Empfangsgebiete-Overlay sind vermutlich statische Daten, oder das aendert sich alle Jubeljahre mal, und dann rendert man das schnell live aus einem WMS. OSM-Kacheln aendern sich dagegen sehr oft und haben so viel Detail, das man nicht wirklich live rendern will. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
M∡rtin Koppenhoefer schrieb am 02.08.2011 11:06: der Tileserver auf OSM.org ist ein Service für die Mapper und eine Demo, was in unseren Daten steckt. Die Nutzungsbedingungen sind hier: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy Für private Seiten mit wenigen Zugriffen kann man den Dienst nutzen, aber wenn man eine professionelle Seite mit vielen Zugriffen betreibt, darf man das nicht mehr. Dann sollte man entweder einen Tileserver von Dritten benutzen (mapquest erlaubt z.B. die Nutzung, daher der Hinweis darauf), oder einen eigenen Server aufsetzen. Das ist ja gerade das Problem mit der Tile usage policy. Dort steht - soweit ich sehen kann - eben nichts Genaues, was nun erlaubt ist und was nicht. Heavy use ist ziemlich schwammig. Für den Zweck um den es hier geht, wird man wohl jedenfalls kaum von Heavy use sprechen können. Diese Problematik spiegelt auch die entsprechende Diskussionsseite wieder. Im Zweifelsfall werden solche Weiterverwender einfach zu GMap o.ä. wechseln - und das möchte man ja dann auch irgendwie wieder nicht, da man mit der Weiterverwendung des Tile-Services schließlich auch ein bisschen PR-Wirkung erzielen möchte. Grüße Alex -- http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Alexrk2 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Kartenwerkstatt/Blog ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-de] Gab es in einem Bereich schon einmal Nodes?
hi ! ich bin gerade in einem Bereich bei welchem ich mir sicher bin schon einmal Daten erzeugt zu haben. Kann man irgendwie über eine räumliche Suche prüfen, ob es schon einmal Daten gab ? Gruß Jan .-) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gab es in einem Bereich schon einmal Nodes?
Du könntest z.B. in Potlatch1 u drücken und sehen, ob nach einigem Warten ein paar rote (=gelöschte) Ways auftauchen. Gruß Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Am 02.08.2011 10:59, schrieb Nils Faerber: Das die Digitalreadio'ler OSM verwenden ist doch gut, wenn sie es richtig attributieren würden. Warum sollte man die also in die Arme eine kommerziellen Dienstes schicken? Das kritische dabei ist, dass die bereits in den Armen eines kommerziellen Dienstleisters sind, siehe die dort befindliche Attributierung. Vermutlich hat also dieser Dienstleister seine Aufgabe drastisch erleichtert indem er einfach OSM-Daten vom OSM-Tileserver einbindet. Wie Frederik schon sagt gibt es im OSM-Umfeld einige Dienstleister die wissen wie das mit den Tiles und der Attributierung gemacht werden kann. Daher sind sie momentan wohl nur beim falschen Dienstleister. Gruß, Bernd -- Es ist schwieriger eine vorgefasste Meinung zu zertrümmern, als ein Atom. - Albert Einstein signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Am 02.08.2011 13:52, schrieb Bernd Wurst: Am 02.08.2011 10:59, schrieb Nils Faerber: Das die Digitalreadio'ler OSM verwenden ist doch gut, wenn sie es richtig attributieren würden. Warum sollte man die also in die Arme eine kommerziellen Dienstes schicken? Das kritische dabei ist, dass die bereits in den Armen eines kommerziellen Dienstleisters sind, siehe die dort befindliche Attributierung. Vermutlich hat also dieser Dienstleister seine Aufgabe drastisch erleichtert indem er einfach OSM-Daten vom OSM-Tileserver einbindet. Wie Frederik schon sagt gibt es im OSM-Umfeld einige Dienstleister die wissen wie das mit den Tiles und der Attributierung gemacht werden kann. Daher sind sie momentan wohl nur beim falschen Dienstleister. Ja, schaut so aus... Teile deren Webseite (des Dienstleisters) sind auch 404 - echt Profis ;) Ich habe sie mal vorsichtig darauf aufmerksam gemacht, mit CC an alle Beteiligten - den Dienstleister eingeschlossen. Mal sehen was passiert... Also mindestens die Attributierung an OSM müssen sie noch einbauen, da würde ich ja echt zickig werden. Die Last auf den Tile-Server kann ich nicht beurteilen, aber professionell betrachtet, sollten sie den OSM Tile Server wohl wirklich nicht verwenden. Ich halte Euch auf dem Laufenden, wenn sie sich melden! Danke! Gruß, Bernd Viele Grüße nils -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 http://www.kernelconcepts.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: Schlimmer noch: Es werden die Tiles vom Hauptserver gezogen. Seit wann ist das verboten? Sven -- Das Einzige wovor wir Angst haben müssen ist die Angst selbst (Franklin D. Roosevelt) /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Nils Faerber nils.faer...@kernelconcepts.de wrote: Ich habe sie mal vorsichtig darauf aufmerksam gemacht, mit CC an alle Beteiligten - den Dienstleister eingeschlossen. Mal sehen was passiert... Powered by con terra, esri OpenStreetMap Zumindest das ging wohl relativ schnell. Gruss Sven -- Ich fürchte mich nicht vor der Rückkehr der Faschisten in der Maske der Faschisten, sondern vor der Rückkehr der Faschisten in der Maske der Demokraten (Theodor W. Adorno) /me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Am 02.08.2011 17:04, schrieb Sven Geggus: Nils Faerber nils.faer...@kernelconcepts.de wrote: Ich habe sie mal vorsichtig darauf aufmerksam gemacht, mit CC an alle Beteiligten - den Dienstleister eingeschlossen. Mal sehen was passiert... Powered by con terra, esri OpenStreetMap Zumindest das ging wohl relativ schnell. Tse ;) Aber nichtmal irgendwie eine Antwortmail an mich schreiben - Nasen... Nuja, immerhin etwas... Aber nachhaken werde ich da trotzdem nochmal ;) Vorsichtig und freundlich versteht sich...und erstmal für die Attributierung bedankend. Gruss Sven Viele Grüße nils -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 http://www.kernelconcepts.de ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Am 2. August 2011 11:36 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Und Mapquest ist doch ein kommerzieller Dienst, wenn ich das richtig sehe? die Nutzung ist kostenlos, betrieben wird das von AOL. Aber kein OSM mehr, oder? Doch, das sind auch OSM-Daten bei Mapquest, und die sind auch fuer die gewerbliche Nutzung kostenlos. Der Stil ist sogar etwas einfacher als der bei OSM, so dass sie sich besser als Hintergrundkarte eignen. Bitte um Himmels willen erzählt dem Nils doch nicht dass das generell OSM-Daten wären was es bei MapQuest gibt. Das gilt nur für die Daten unter open.mapquest.de/com/co.uk usw., nicht auf der mapquest.de/com/co.uk. Nils, ausführlich ist das MapQuest-OSM-Engagement nachzulesen unter http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MapQuest Ciao, Rolf ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Am 02.08.2011 17:00, schrieb Sven Geggus: Stephan Knauss o...@stephans-server.de wrote: Schlimmer noch: Es werden die Tiles vom Hauptserver gezogen. Seit wann ist das verboten? Gar nicht. Es sei denn, diese Seite wäre ein heavy user. Eine Unterscheidung zwischen kommerziellen und sonstigen Nutzern gibt es in der Tile Usage Policy jedenfalls nicht. Gruß, Tobias ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Digitalradio.de - Karte ohne Attributierung?
Am 02.08.2011 18:39, schrieb Tobias Knerr: Am 02.08.2011 17:00, schrieb Sven Geggus: Stephan Knausso...@stephans-server.de wrote: Schlimmer noch: Es werden die Tiles vom Hauptserver gezogen. Seit wann ist das verboten? Gar nicht. Es sei denn, diese Seite wäre ein heavy user. Eine Unterscheidung zwischen kommerziellen und sonstigen Nutzern gibt es in der Tile Usage Policy jedenfalls nicht. Und ich glaube, da gibt es so einige Portale die eher heavy user sind ;) ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] Gab es in einem Bereich schon einmal Nodes?
Am 2. August 2011 12:53 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Du könntest z.B. in Potlatch1 u drücken und sehen, ob nach einigem Warten ein paar rote (=gelöschte) Ways auftauchen. Sorry, Du suchst wohl nodes? PL1 findet nur ways. Versuchs mal mit OWL: http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/owl_viewer/map auf die Stelle sehr weit reinzoomen und das tile anclicken. Alternativ: Einen alten Planet runterladen und mit Osmosis die Stelle ausschneiden, die Dich interessiert. Dann z.B. in JOSM öffnen. Gruß Martin ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[Talk-it] info GPS
Ciao sono una studentessa universitaria, sto facendo una tesi su OSM e ho provato a mappare una strada vicino a casa mia che non era presente sulla mappa. ora che ho preso i dati con il mio GPS è necessario usare un programma come Vertogis per passare da WGS84 coordinate geografiche (date dal mio GPS) a WGS84 UTM? o posso direttamente trasformare i dati in gpx con il GPSBabel? Grazie. ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] info GPS
Giusto per curiosita: tesi di che genere? Le coordinate ti servono in WGS84 (epsg:4326) che userei come sfondo in josm Consiglio l'uso di gpsbabel per creare il .gpx 2011/8/2 paola_cape...@alice.it paola_cape...@alice.it: Ciao sono una studentessa universitaria, sto facendo una tesi su OSM e ho provato a mappare una strada vicino a casa mia che non era presente sulla mappa. ora che ho preso i dati con il mio GPS è necessario usare un programma come Vertogis per passare da WGS84 coordinate geografiche (date dal mio GPS) a WGS84 UTM? o posso direttamente trasformare i dati in gpx con il GPSBabel? ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] info GPS
Il 02 agosto 2011 14:02, paola_cape...@alice.it paola_cape...@alice.it ha scritto: Ciao sono una studentessa universitaria, sto facendo una tesi su OSM molto interessante, puoi dirci di più? e ho provato a mappare una strada vicino a casa mia che non era presente sulla mappa. ora che ho preso i dati con il mio GPS è necessario usare un programma come Vertogis per passare da WGS84 coordinate geografiche (date dal mio GPS) a WGS84 UTM? o posso direttamente trasformare i dati in gpx con il GPSBabel? puoi usare ogr2ogr [0] oppure un qualsiasi software gis (io ti consiglierei qgis [1]) Per inserire i dati su OSM comunque va bene WGS84 e puoi usare un software tipo JOSM [2] Grazie. [0] http://www.gdal.org/ogr2ogr.html [1] www.qgis.org [2] http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ -- ciao Luca http://gis.cri.fmach.it/delucchi/ www.lucadelu.org ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] info GPS
Io passerei alla proiezione UTM solo come ultimo passo della mappatura. Inoltre attraverso JOSM puoi sovrapporre le tue traccie alle fotografie aeree del portale Cartografico Nazionale, che mi pare non sia possibile una volta proiettato i dati. ora che ho preso i dati con il mio GPS è necessario usare un programma come Vertogis per passare da WGS84 coordinate geografiche (date dal mio GPS) a WGS84 UTM? o posso direttamente trasformare i dati in gpx con il GPSBabel? ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] A chi lo dico?
A quanto pare aprire un ticket su trac non era la cosa giusta da fare, infatti hanno chiuso il ticket con wontfix e poi c'è la spiegazione: Changed 26 hours http://trac.openstreetmap.org/timeline?from=2011-08-01T11%3A17%3A54%2B0100precision=second ago by TomH * *status* changed from /new/ to /closed/ * *resolution* set to /wontfix/ Web site translations need to be made through Translatewiki. There are instructions on our wiki here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Website_Internationalization#How_to_translate Il -10/01/-28163 20:59, Andrea Gelmini ha scritto: Il 31 luglio 2011 21:48, Daniele Forsi dfo...@gmail.com ha scritto: la cosa migliore sarebbe se tu potessi allegare una patch con la correzione e magari guardare se ci sono altri errori Ciao Daniele, e davvero grazie per le precisissime indicazioni che mi hai fornito. Ho provveduto ad aprire il ticket su trac.¹ In settimana do una letta a tutto il file per controllare ulteriori errori. Anzi, magari coinvolgo il Lug locale, giusto per avere un po' di occhi in piu'. Grazie ancora, Andrea ¹ http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3942 ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[Talk-it] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
LinkedIn I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Francesco Francesco Boccacci RD developer at Navionics s.p.a Florence Area, Italy Confirm that you know Francesco Boccacci https://www.linkedin.com/e/-kxc12n-gqv1gu89-61/isd/3732899935/hGIlwGJH/ -- (c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] info GPS
2011/8/2 paola_cape...@alice.it paola_cape...@alice.it: mappa. ora che ho preso i dati con il mio GPS è necessario usare un programma come Vertogis per passare da WGS84 coordinate geografiche (date dal mio GPS) a WGS84 UTM? o posso direttamente trasformare i dati in gpx con il GPSBabel? La cosa migliore come già scritto da altri è registrare e tenere i dati del GPS in WGS84. Se vuoi caricare la traccia sul portale (per renderlo disponibile anche ad altre persone) credo che sia richiesto WGS84 (consiglio trackable oppure identificable). upload qui: http://www.openstreetmap.org/traces informazioni qui: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Upload http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Visibility_of_GPS_traces comunque non è necessario pubblicare le tracce del GPS, ma è un buon metodo per a) archivare in pubblico b) dare possibilità ad altri mappatori di verificare le tue e le loro tracce e di aggiustare la posizione delle ortofoto c) provare che hai percorso la strada d'avvero C'è chi pulisce i dati del GPS prima di uploadare ma secondome non ha senso ( a precindere delle nuvole del tempo fermo, dove io per esempio spengo la registrazione del GPS). Questa prima elaborazione già toglie delle informazioni utili che nella traccia originale sono contenute. I dati di OSM (GPS e dati) sono tutti in WGS84 nel database, e solo nella fase di rendering/editing (Mapnik, T@H, JOSM, Potlatch) vengono trasformati in spherical mercator (EPSG 900913 / 3857) ciao, Martin ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[Talk-it] info GPS
Ah ok, quindi se non ho capito male basta che: - scarico i dati dal mio GPS - li trasformo in gpx. - utilizzo direttamente JOSM quindi non mi consigliate di passare al sistema UTM ,iusto? la mia è una tesi di laurea triennale al Politecnico di Milano in ingengeria per l'ambiente e il territorio, la docente che mi ha proposto questo argomento era stata ad un mapping party. Si tratta di una tesi che prevede una parte di descrizione del progetto, storia, motivi per cui è nato e una seconda parte di applicazione! Grazie per l'aiuto!!___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-dk] [OpenStreetMap] Gadenavne i Lyngby
2011/7/28 Morten Kjeldgaard m...@bioxray.dk God ide. Som hjælp til diskussionen kan du henvise din kone til dette link fra Dansk Sprognævn: http://www.adresseprojekt.dk/files/DS_Retskriv_Vejnavne.htm som diskuterer retskrivning af vejnavne. -- Morten God side. Jeg har også været inde på http://oisfixes.beta.iola.dk/rettelser/og kigge lidt og kom lige i tanke om et par spørgsmål: 1. Hvad gør man hvis kommunen omdøber Ryttergrøftvejen ( http://osm.ter.dk/address_street.php?MunicipalityCode=607StreetCode=7042) til Ryttergrøftvej, men _kun_ på noget af vejen? Vejskiltene er kun blevet opdaterede på den ene side af Egeskovvej: Den nye: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25026884 Den gamle: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/115984738 Skiltene er cykeltjekket så navnene på vejene er er gode nok. OIS-data siger bare at der kun er een vej. 2. Jeg haft nogle røde adresser på Egehavevej ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/123697128). Nu har GPS'en og cyklen været ude i mudderet og der ingen bygninger, pæle, rør, huller eller andet der indikerer at her skulle være nogle adresser. Ren skovbund. Fx Egehavevej 38. Hvad er egentlig det rigtige at gøre her? -- Daniel ___ Talk-dk mailing list Talk-dk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-dk
Re: [Talk-dk] [OpenStreetMap] Gadenavne i Lyngby
2011/8/2 Jonas Häggqvist ras...@rasher.dk On 02-08-2011 14:52, Daniel Trads wrote: [SNIP - OIS-data for een vej] Hvilke data taler du om når du siger OIS-data? De data vi har adgang til i OSM (via geoservicen geo.oiorest.dk) kan godt være forældede med op til et halvt års tid. Har du kigget på http://ois.dk som vist er det tætteste vi kommer på real-time data (men under en nok se men ikke røre politik). Ahh ok, det var faktisk kun på OIOREST jeg tjekkede. Jeg bookmarker lige ois.dk også. Men først og fremmest gør man som du allerede har gjort: tagger vejene med de nye navne. Herefter venter vi på at geoservicen giver os de rigtige data når vi slår op i området (altså to seperate veje med forskellige vejkoder) - http://osm.ter.dk/streets_in.**php?lat=55.60164lon=9.74925** zoom=15layers=Bhttp://osm.ter.dk/streets_in.php?lat=55.60164lon=9.74925zoom=15layers=B Indtil den gør det giver det i mine øjne ikke rigtig mening at gøre mere ud af sagen. Hvis data er opdaterede på ois.dk er det bare at vente på det bliver opdateret på Geoservicen. Hvis ikke kan du eventuelt kontakte kommunen og spørge hvorfor du ikke kan slå Ryttergrøftvej op på ois.dk(jeg har lige tjekket, og det kan man ikke). Tror lige jeg mailer kommunen... Det er nok gået for hurtigt med skiltebestillingen. -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk -- Daniel ___ Talk-dk mailing list Talk-dk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-dk
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-GB] OSM talk at ShropGeek, Shrewsbury, 26 Sept
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: Hi folks, I'm visiting my friends at ShropGeek, in Shrewsbury, on 26 September to talk about OSM and demonstrate the use of JOSM: http://osmshrewssep11.eventbrite.com/ While it may not be something for those of you on these lists (It's aimed at people new to OSM), please feel free to inform your contacts in the area, if you think it might interest them. Good luck, and let us all know how it goes! It would be great for us all to be sharing experiences and tips about doing these kind of things here on the talk-gb mailing list. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-es] Rotondas y no rotondas
En un caso como este http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.08438mlon=0.62618zoom=17 tampoco se debería considerar rotonda no? ya que no tienen preferencia los que van por dentro. Si se ve por las fotos del PNOA se ve que tiene un stop y que tienen preferencia los que van por la carretera N-420 El 29 de julio de 2011 22:58, Jorge Sanz Sanfructuoso sanc...@gmail.comescribió: El 29 de julio de 2011 22:48, sergio sevillano sergiosevillano.m...@gmail.com escribió: El 29/07/2011, a las 21:53, Jaume Figueras escribió: Hola, a partir de la discusión de rotondas me han surgido dos dudas nuevas: 1.- Que pasa cuando la rotonda es tal, pero pasa por encima de una autovía/autopista y de debe partir para etiquetar los trozos como 'bridge' [1]. Es correcta la 'rotura' de la vía? yo sí lo hago, creo que es mas importante romperla y poner bridges que que sea junction=roundabout. así que, si tener ambos no es compatible, me quedaría con lo primero. otro caso típico de roturas de rotonda es por las relaciones de rutas (líneas de autobús pej.) y repregunto aparte de ser correctas o no en OSM ¿estas rotondas rotas dan problemas a los mapas garmin y demás? Error al crear los mapas para garmin no da por lo que debería funcionar pero la verdad es que no he usado casi los mapas de Garmin. No da error siempre que mantengan el junction=roundabout en todas las vías. 2.- En las vías que se conectan a las rotondas, les estoy poniendo restricciones de giro cuando estas están separadas por isletas/bordillos/césped o similares. En concreto les pongo un no-u-turn [2]. Es esto correcto? este no lo hago. en mi opinión es correcto, aunque no sé si necesario. en este caso concreto [2] y similares si no ponemos no_u_turn y dejamos la cosa en manos de soft de rutas siempre el camino mas corto en tiempo o distancia es el correcto. ya se habló de algún caso de vías separadas por mediana y que luego en otro tramo no lo estaban, en el que no poner esa restricción sí daría rutas erróneas. quizás se puede decidir que lo correcto sea ponerla siempre... hoy en día el dato no ocupa lugar Salut! [1] http://osm.org/go/xUcirOJi7-- [2] http://osm.org/go/xUcsvtwua-- ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es -- Jorge Sanz Sanfructuoso - Sanchi Blog http://blog.jorgesanzs.com/ -- Jorge Sanz Sanfructuoso - Sanchi Blog http://blog.jorgesanzs.com/ ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Rotondas y no rotondas
El 02/08/2011 13:54, Jorge Sanz Sanfructuoso escribió: En un caso como este http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.08438mlon=0.62618zoom=17 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.08438mlon=0.62618zoom=17 tampoco se debería considerar rotonda no? ya que no tienen preferencia los que van por dentro. Si se ve por las fotos del PNOA se ve que tiene un stop y que tienen preferencia los que van por la carretera N-420 No solo es que tengan preferencia los de la N-420, es que ni siquiera tienen que pasar por la supuesta rotonda, sino que van recto por la propia N-420. Yo quitaría el juntion=roundabout, pondría oneway=yes y la partiría borrando el trozo que pega con la N-420, ya que esa vía no es para dar la vuelta, sino para incorporarse a/salir de la N-420. El 29 de julio de 2011 22:58, Jorge Sanz Sanfructuoso sanc...@gmail.com mailto:sanc...@gmail.com escribió: El 29 de julio de 2011 22:48, sergio sevillano sergiosevillano.m...@gmail.com mailto:sergiosevillano.m...@gmail.com escribió: El 29/07/2011, a las 21:53, Jaume Figueras escribió: Hola, a partir de la discusión de rotondas me han surgido dos dudas nuevas: 1.- Que pasa cuando la rotonda es tal, pero pasa por encima de una autovía/autopista y de debe partir para etiquetar los trozos como 'bridge' [1]. Es correcta la 'rotura' de la vía? yo sí lo hago, creo que es mas importante romperla y poner bridges que que sea junction=roundabout. así que, si tener ambos no es compatible, me quedaría con lo primero. otro caso típico de roturas de rotonda es por las relaciones de rutas (líneas de autobús pej.) y repregunto aparte de ser correctas o no en OSM ¿estas rotondas rotas dan problemas a los mapas garmin y demás? Error al crear los mapas para garmin no da por lo que debería funcionar pero la verdad es que no he usado casi los mapas de Garmin. No da error siempre que mantengan el junction=roundabout en todas las vías. 2.- En las vías que se conectan a las rotondas, les estoy poniendo restricciones de giro cuando estas están separadas por isletas/bordillos/césped o similares. En concreto les pongo un no-u-turn [2]. Es esto correcto? este no lo hago. en mi opinión es correcto, aunque no sé si necesario. en este caso concreto [2] y similares si no ponemos no_u_turn y dejamos la cosa en manos de soft de rutas siempre el camino mas corto en tiempo o distancia es el correcto. ya se habló de algún caso de vías separadas por mediana y que luego en otro tramo no lo estaban, en el que no poner esa restricción sí daría rutas erróneas. quizás se puede decidir que lo correcto sea ponerla siempre... hoy en día el dato no ocupa lugar Salut! [1] http://osm.org/go/xUcirOJi7-- [2] http://osm.org/go/xUcsvtwua-- ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
[Talk-es] ¿como indico que no se puede girar a izda?
Buenas En la intersección [1] han prohibido girar a la izquierda (hace unos años) de forma que si te incorporas desde la derecha de mapa y quieres venir al sur, debes incorporarte a la via dirección norte y hacer el cambio de sentido un poco más arriba en una glorieta. ¿como se indica esto? [1]http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.6493724286556lon=-4.75881010293961zoom=18 ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] ¿como indico que no se puede girar a izda?
On Miércoles, 3 de Agosto de 2011 00:41:47 Pumuky escribió: Buenas En la intersección [1] han prohibido girar a la izquierda (hace unos años) de forma que si te incorporas desde la derecha de mapa y quieres venir al sur, debes incorporarte a la via dirección norte y hacer el cambio de sentido un poco más arriba en una glorieta. ¿como se indica esto? [1]http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.6493724286556lon=-4.75881010293961 zoom=18 Tienes que hacer una relación entre las vías en las que está prohibido el giro, y el nodo del cruce: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turn_restriction No es trivial, pero creo recordar que para JOSM hay alguna manera de hacerlo más o menos rápido. -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es i...@geonerd.org Miksch's Law: If a string has one end, then it has another end. ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
[Talk-es] Algunos POIS y dudas sobre TAGS
.- ¿Como se indica o diferencia si es que se hace un ambulatorio, de un centro de especialidades, de un puesto de socorro, de un Hospital?. .- ¿Como se indica un centro de día de la tercera edad? .- Por último, tengo un poco lio con las vias. Las calles entiendo que son vias Residenciales Las vias terciarias se suponen que conectan poblaciones pero veo que tambien se usan para avenidas. ¿todas las avenidas se ponen como terciarias o depende del número de carriles? .- ¿Se puede indicar aparcamiento público un interbloque (no hay portales y no tiene nombre pues antes era un parque) que han habilitado con espacio a ambos lados para aparcar? ¿Es residencial verdad? .- No tengo claro la diferencia entre living-street y pedestrian. Una calle adoquinada por el que normalmente pasea la gente pero que puede pasar algún coche de forma ocasional,¿que es? Lo he puesto como living street pero tengo las dudas. ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
Re: [Talk-es] Algunos POIS y dudas sobre TAGS
El 3 de agosto de 2011 01:23, Pumuky pumukys...@yahoo.es escribió: .- ¿Como se indica o diferencia si es que se hace un ambulatorio, de un centro de especialidades, de un puesto de socorro, de un Hospital?. Que conozca no hay diferencia actualmente. Lo único que encontrado es esta propuesta http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0. Creo que tampoco viene pero tampoco lo aseguro ya que no soy muy dado al ingles. .- ¿Como se indica un centro de día de la tercera edad? Lo preguntaron hace tiempo y no se consiguió respuesta así que creo que no hay forma de indicarlo .- Por último, tengo un poco lio con las vias. Las calles entiendo que son vias Residenciales Las vias terciarias se suponen que conectan poblaciones pero veo que tambien se usan para avenidas. ¿todas las avenidas se ponen como terciarias o depende del número de carriles? Aquí viene explicado http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Normalizaci%C3%B3n#V.C3.ADas_urbanas .- ¿Se puede indicar aparcamiento público un interbloque (no hay portales y no tiene nombre pues antes era un parque) que han habilitado con espacio a ambos lados para aparcar? ¿Es residencial verdad? No termino de entender a que te refieres. .- No tengo claro la diferencia entre living-street y pedestrian. Una calle adoquinada por el que normalmente pasea la gente pero que puede pasar algún coche de forma ocasional,¿que es? Lo he puesto como living street pero tengo las dudas. Yo suelo poner como pedestrian calles peatonales pero que puedan pasar coches porque tengan garaje en la calle, por reparto de mercancia Vamos lo mínimo y necesario. Lo cierto que pocas living_street he puesto pero creo que es mas que puedan pasar coches con mas facilidad sin estricta necesidad. Para aparcar en la propia calle por ejemplo. Normalmente en España deberían estar señalizadas aunque me imagino que muchas no lo estarán. ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es -- Jorge Sanz Sanfructuoso - Sanchi Blog http://blog.jorgesanzs.com/ ___ Talk-es mailing list Talk-es@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-es
[Talk-at] Geoimage.at ist nun in Potlatch nutzbar
Hallo, Dank Sven Geggus, der auf dem openstreetmap.de Server für uns einen Tile-URL zu WMS-URL-Konverterservice zur Verfügung stellt, kann nun jeder auch in Potlatch die hochauflösenden geoimage.at Lufbilder für das Tracing nutzen. Dafür einfach die folgenden URLs aufrufen (key durch einen bei https://kunden.bmlfuw.lfrz.at/lfrz.at/wmsgw/customergui beantragten persönlichen Key ersetzen! Die Gegend ist als Beispiel Kufstein ...): Potlatch2: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=47.581097lon=12.168834zoom=20tileurl=http://geoimage.openstreetmap.at/key/!/!/!.jpg Potlatch1: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatchlat=47.581097lon=12.168834zoom=20tileurl=http://geoimage.openstreetmap.at/key/!/!/!.jpg oder Konfiguration in Potlatch2 selber (Background - Edit - New) mit der URL: http://geoimage.openstreetmap.at/key/$z/$x/$y.jpg Leider scheint Potlatch2 sich die konfigurierten Services nicht bis zum nächsten Aufruf zu merken ... (kennt da jemand Abhilfe?) Ich habe im OSM-Trac schon ein Ticket eingerichtet, dass für Potlatch2 dieser Service vorkonfiguriert zur Verfügung gestellt wird: https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/3945 Dafür muss natürlich ein für alle verwendbarer Key konfiguriert werden, und das LFRZ hat einen solchen für die Benutzung in OSM-Editoren auch zur Verfügung gestellt (mit erst einmal 10mio statt wie sonst 50tausend erlaubten Zugriffen). Sven hat den Sourcecode seines Services auch zur Verfügung gestellt (vielleicht will noch jemand einen WMS in Potlatch verfügbar machen?): http://svn.openstreetmap.org/sites/wms.openstreetmap.de/geoimage.wsgi (für die technisch interessierten: Der Service akzeptiert die von Potlatch gesendeten Tile Requests, antwortet aber nicht direkt mit den Bildern [cascading-Verbot ...], sondern mit einem HTTP-Redirect, der Potlatch dazu veranlasst die zum angeforderten Tile äquivalente WMS-URL zu verwenden.) Und: Bitte denkt beim Mapping an das source-Tag! Viele Grüße, -- Holger Schoener nume...@ancalime.de ___ Talk-at mailing list Talk-at@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-at
[Talk-cz] Značení mýta v České republice
Narazil jsem na problém. Uživatel Tomas Pajonk označil určitý úsek silnice 1.třídy č.33 tagem toll=yes. Jenomže mýto platí obvykle jen vozy nad 3,5 tuny a tag toll=yes se zatím používal jen u zpoplatněných dálnic a rychlostních komunikací, kde je třeba mít na osobáku dálniční známku. Bude potřeba toto nějak rozlišit, protože aplikace GpsMid mě pak na tu 33 nepustí ani s osobákem. Koukal jsem na Cz:Map Features a tam je uveden k poplatku jen tag toll=yes. Nevíte jak se tato situace mýtem zpoplatněných silnic I. třídy řeší Pražák ___ Talk-cz mailing list Talk-cz@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-cz
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [OSM-Talk-fr] Propositions des Statuts et Règlement de l'Association OpenStreetMap France
Le 2 août 2011 01:03, Sébastien Dinot sebastien.di...@free.fr a écrit : Bonjour, Voici quelques remarques sur les statuts : Article 1 : = Le sigle « OSM » étant souvent utilisé en lieu et place du nom « OpenStreetMap », ne serait-il pas bon de mentionner l'équivalence entre « OpenStreetMap France » et « OSM France » ? Cela évitera par exemple l'invalidation d'un document qu'un administrateur ou qu'un salarié aura un peu trop hâtivement signé au nom d'« OSM France ». Article 2 : = J'aurais bien ajouté un lien vers les sites de la FSF et d'OSM pour enlever toute ambiguité. Peut-être que ces liens et quelques définitions (licence libre par exemple) auraient leur place dans un préambule. Article 3 : = Préciser la ville et le code postal dans les adresses. Article 5 : = Je trouve curieux qu'un membre bienfaiteur n'ait pas des droits au moins équivalents à ceux des membres actifs. Dit autrement, je ne vois aucune raison de priver un membre bienfaiteur du droit de vote et du droit d'assister à l'assemblée générale (et je ne suis même pas certain qu'il soit légal d'interdire à des membres d'une association à jour de cotisation l'accès à l'AG). Au passage, je n'ai pas lu le règlement intérieur in extenso mais j'ai quand même voulu voir comment vous y définissiez les membres actifs, bienfaiteurs et d'honneur. C'est... comment dire... perfectible ! À corriger de toute urgence ! Article 9 : = Vous devez absolument abaisser le quorum si vous voulez éviter la sclérose. Jamais vous n'arriverez à réunir 50 % des membres d'une association d'envergure nationale, même pour une décision importante, surtout en limitant aussi drastiquement le nombre de délégations que vous le faites dans l'article 12. En outre, si vous conservez le quorum actuel et que, constatant qu'il est impossible à atteindre, vous décidez de l'abaisser ultérieurement, vous aurez bien évidemment toutes les peines du monde à obtenir le quorum nécessaire à la délibération valide d'une AG extraordinaire. L'April avait commis une telle erreur de jeunesse. Aujourd'hui, le quorum n'est que de 30 % des membres à jour de cotisation et c'est déjà un challenge à chaque AG qui nous a conduit à mettre en place le vote électronique et un suivi en temps réel du nombre de votants pour effectuer les relances nécessaires et s'assurer de l'obtention des quorums avant l'AG. = Un délai de 15 jours pour une convocation, c'est trop court. Lorsque je dois faire le déplacement à Paris depuis Toulouse, j'aime bien être prévenu longtemps à l'avance afin de pouvoir acheter mon billet d'avion à un prix raisonnable. Dites moi si je suis à côté de la plaque mais le déplacement physique des membres est-il une obligation? Le vote électronique me semble en effet une solution à envisager car prendre l'avion juste pour une AG c'est très limite du point de vue développement durable... Désolé pour ce parti pris mais c'est mon côté vert qui parle ;) Romain Article 11 : = Rien n'étant dit du bureau dans les status, j'ai jeté un œil au règlement intérieur pour voir ce qui en était dit. J'ai constaté avec amusement que ce dernier faisait référence aux statuts... = Comment est élu le conseil d'administration ? Par listes, par candidatures individuelles ? Article 12 : = Si vous y tenez vraiment, limitez le nombre de délégations autorisées par personne présente à l'AG mais pas à une ! Trois ou six me semblent être des valeurs plus raisonnables. De manière plus générale, comme vous envisagez les subventions comme source de financement, prenez dès à présent en compte les critères nécessaires à la délivrance de certains agréments indispensables à l'obtention de certaines subventions. Les critères par exemple nécessaires à l'obtention de l'agrément « jeunesse et éducation populaire » (agrément auquel pourrait prétendre à terme OSM France) sont définis dans la section « Les critères » de la page ci-dessous : http://www.associations.gouv.fr/639-l-agrement-de-jeunesse-et-d.html Sébastien -- Sébastien Dinot, sebastien.di...@free.fr http://sebastien.dinot.free.fr/ Ne goûtez pas au logiciel libre, vous ne pourriez plus vous en passer ! ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Choix d'un GPS pour équiper les services techniques
Dans le cas présenté par Antoine à l'origine du fil de discussion, il était question d'avoir une grande précision pour permettre de faire un inventaire d'arbres et d'espaces verts sur une commune. Une des contraintes est donc de pouvoir placer l'antenne au plus près de l'arbre, hors du véhicule. Si ce n'est pas déjà fait, tu pourrais le présenter sur le forum trafic aménagé qui rassemble la majeure partie des aménageurs de fourgons amateurs http://www.trafic-amenage.com/forum/ - Si le processeur du dreamplug peut faire du décodage audio / video, on obtient un jukebox de véhicule extrèmement sympathique, surtout si l'on considère que l'écran peut être déplacé dans le véhicule (à condition d'y avoir prévu des prises USB aux endroits stratégiques) Le 2 août 2011 07:46, piratebab pirate...@hotmail.com a écrit : ** J'ai utilisé le freerunnet pendant longtemps en tant que GPS, mais niveau ergonomie, c'est trés limite dans un véhicule (écran trop petit). J'ai donc monté un GPS écran tactile 8pouces: - dreamplug (http://www.newit.co.uk/shop/proddetail.php?prod=DreamPlug): 150 € - écran mimo 7 pouces ( http://www.newit.co.uk/shop/proddetail.php?prod=mimo_720F) 130 € - alim 12V/5V: http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/917 75 €) - un récepteur GPS étanche et magnétique: ( http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/535): 40 € Soit 395 € (et quelques heures de configuration) pour un système complètement ouvert et configurable, avec wifi et bluetooth. Je suis en train d'y configurer une gestion main libre de mon tel. Pour ceux qui ne veulent pas s'embêter à mettre les mains dans le logiciel, il y a une version préconfigurée : http://www.newit.co.uk/shop/proddetail.php?prod=Dream_GUI (sans alim 12V et récepteur GPS, à ajouter) Le 01/08/2011 15:20, Ab_fab a écrit : Xavier, La section Data Logger de l'OpenMoko parle de conversion des données brutes de la puce U-blox antaris 4 vers le format RINEX, afin d'en permettre le post-traitementhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Data_Logger#RINEX Est-ce que c'est une porte ouverte potentielle pour correction après-coup grace aux données fournies par le Réseau Géodésique Permanent ?http://rgp.ign.fr/accueil.php# Le 1 août 2011 11:25, Xavier Cremaschi omega.xav...@gmail.com omega.xav...@gmail.com a écrit : Le 01/08/2011 11:01, Ab_fab a écrit : Connaissez-vous des matériels disponibles sur le marché : _ Les bornes fixes qui pourraient être conseillées à des communes intéressées ? _ Les récepteurs / loggers mobiles compatibles (et si possible accessibles) ? Je sais qu'il y a eu des essais à base d'Openmoko Freerunner l'an dernier (puce GPS u-blox antaris 4 sur le mien -- je suis à peu près sûr qu'ils ont tous celle-ci --). http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html#nabble-td5574779 Xavier. ___ Talk-fr mailing listTalk-fr@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing listTalk-fr@openstreetmap.orghttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr -- ab_fab http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ab_fab Il n'y a pas de pas perdus ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Choix d'un GPS pour équiper les services techniques
Le 01/08/2011 15:20, Ab_fab a écrit : Xavier, La section Data Logger de l'OpenMoko parle de conversion des données brutes de la puce U-blox antaris 4 vers le format RINEX, afin d'en permettre le post-traitement http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS_Data_Logger#RINEX Est-ce que c'est une porte ouverte potentielle pour correction après-coup grace aux données fournies par le Réseau Géodésique Permanent ? http://rgp.ign.fr/accueil.php# L'Openmoko Freerunner est un prototype de smartphone sous Linux. De l'extérieur ça ressemble à un smartphone d'il y a quelques années (écran assez petit, tactile résistif, puce gps, gsm mais pas 3G, etc...). De l'intérieur c'est un pc standard sous Linux. Donc pour ton histoire de porte ouverte potentielle je dirais que oui. On a accès aux différentes couches qui gère le GPS : driver, daemon gpsd (logiciel bas niveau qui traite ce que file le driver), logiciel de cartes (logiciel haut niveau qui reçoit ses données du daemon). Ça fait autant de points d'entrées modifiables pour prendre en compte des corrections de données venant d'ailleurs. Par contre ce sont des choses à développer, la seule personne ayant joué avec ça à ma connaissance étant Timo Juhani Lindfors (cf. mon précédent email) Xavier. ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Base de POI sous licence CC0
J'avais testé rapidement les données via l'api et ce n'était pas très concluant pour OSM sur Bordeaux. Que des commerces avec une couverture partielle et des attributs parfois fantaisistes. Reste avoir plus en détail ce que ça peut donner avec cette nouvelle annonce. Fred Le 2 août 2011 02:39, Thomas Gratier osgeo.mailingl...@gmail.com a écrit : Bonjour, Un déterrage pour signaler que la base de POI en CC0 encore difficilement accessible l'est maintenant beaucoup plus avec cette annonce http://blog.simplegeo.com/2011/08/01/august-updates/ et le lien direct vers le téléchargement (plus de 2 Go) Cordialement ThomasG ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Base de POI sous licence CC0
Le mardi 02 août 2011 à 02:39 +0200, Thomas Gratier a écrit : Bonjour, Un déterrage pour signaler que la base de POI en CC0 encore difficilement accessible l'est maintenant beaucoup plus avec cette annonce http://blog.simplegeo.com/2011/08/01/august-updates/ et le lien direct vers le téléchargement (plus de 2 Go) Je prends le train en route, je n'ai pas effectué de recherches pour trouver la réponse à cette question : peut-on mirrorer de manière automatisée cette base (style en ouvrant un FTP sur lequel l'éditeur de cette base envoie automatiquement les mises à jours) ? Si oui, je ferai un miroir sur cleo-carto.org (maintenant qu'il y a un serveur dédié, autant l'utiliser !) Philippe ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] problème fichier cadastre
Le lundi 01 août 2011 à 14:56 +0200, didier2...@free.fr a écrit : maintenant il est plus gros (il manque la partie sud est) par l'interface http://cadastre.cleo-carto.org/ tu choisis le departement puis la ville envoyer ... et patience ... (ne pas fermer la page) ... patience dans la barre d'etat de ton navigateur il y a la progression et si c'est terminé Je vais améliorer ça un jour, promis Philippe ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] problème fichier cadastre
On Tue, 02 Aug 2011 16:00:57 +0200, Philippe Pary wrote: Le lundi 01 août 2011 à 14:56 +0200, didier2...@free.fr a écrit : maintenant il est plus gros (il manque la partie sud est) par l'interface http://cadastre.cleo-carto.org/ tu choisis le departement puis la ville envoyer ... et patience ... (ne pas fermer la page) ... patience dans la barre d'etat de ton navigateur il y a la progression et si c'est terminé Je vais améliorer ça un jour, promis idéalement il faudrait qu'une fois le calcul fini, ca affiche directement des liens vers les x fichiers osm générés. Tant que j'y suis, bug ou feature: quand le calcul est fini, la liste des villes se vide, c'est normal ? ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] problème fichier cadastre
Le mardi 02 août 2011 à 16:13 +0200, jul...@krilin.org a écrit : On Tue, 02 Aug 2011 16:00:57 +0200, Philippe Pary wrote: Le lundi 01 août 2011 à 14:56 +0200, didier2...@free.fr a écrit : maintenant il est plus gros (il manque la partie sud est) par l'interface http://cadastre.cleo-carto.org/ tu choisis le departement puis la ville envoyer ... et patience ... (ne pas fermer la page) ... patience dans la barre d'etat de ton navigateur il y a la progression et si c'est terminé Je vais améliorer ça un jour, promis idéalement il faudrait qu'une fois le calcul fini, ca affiche directement des liens vers les x fichiers osm générés. Tant que j'y suis, bug ou feature: quand le calcul est fini, la liste des villes se vide, c'est normal ? Bug, un truc pareil ne peut pas être une feature … :-) Philippe ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [OSM-Talk-fr] Propositions des Statuts et Règlement de l'Association OpenStreetMap France
Le samedi 30 juillet 2011 à 19:00 +0200, Florian LAINEZ a écrit : Nous [1] avons travaillé pendant l'AprilCamp à la finalisation des statuts d'OSM. http://photos.april.org/v/aprilcampjuillet2011/DSCF5497.JPG.html L'instant a été immortalisé par cette photo Philippe ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [OSM-Talk-fr] Propositions des Statuts et Règlement de l'Association OpenStreetMap France
Salut, Plutôt que suivre ce débat, je vais simplement dire que je soutiens Sébastien Dinot dans ses remarques, y compris celles à venir. J'ai confiance dans l'expérience et la pertinence de ce vieux s[in|a]ge Philippe Le mardi 02 août 2011 à 01:03 +0200, Sébastien Dinot a écrit : Bonjour, Voici quelques remarques sur les statuts : Article 1 : = Le sigle « OSM » étant souvent utilisé en lieu et place du nom « OpenStreetMap », ne serait-il pas bon de mentionner l'équivalence entre « OpenStreetMap France » et « OSM France » ? Cela évitera par exemple l'invalidation d'un document qu'un administrateur ou qu'un salarié aura un peu trop hâtivement signé au nom d'« OSM France ». Article 2 : = J'aurais bien ajouté un lien vers les sites de la FSF et d'OSM pour enlever toute ambiguité. Peut-être que ces liens et quelques définitions (licence libre par exemple) auraient leur place dans un préambule. Article 3 : = Préciser la ville et le code postal dans les adresses. Article 5 : = Je trouve curieux qu'un membre bienfaiteur n'ait pas des droits au moins équivalents à ceux des membres actifs. Dit autrement, je ne vois aucune raison de priver un membre bienfaiteur du droit de vote et du droit d'assister à l'assemblée générale (et je ne suis même pas certain qu'il soit légal d'interdire à des membres d'une association à jour de cotisation l'accès à l'AG). Au passage, je n'ai pas lu le règlement intérieur in extenso mais j'ai quand même voulu voir comment vous y définissiez les membres actifs, bienfaiteurs et d'honneur. C'est... comment dire... perfectible ! À corriger de toute urgence ! Article 9 : = Vous devez absolument abaisser le quorum si vous voulez éviter la sclérose. Jamais vous n'arriverez à réunir 50 % des membres d'une association d'envergure nationale, même pour une décision importante, surtout en limitant aussi drastiquement le nombre de délégations que vous le faites dans l'article 12. En outre, si vous conservez le quorum actuel et que, constatant qu'il est impossible à atteindre, vous décidez de l'abaisser ultérieurement, vous aurez bien évidemment toutes les peines du monde à obtenir le quorum nécessaire à la délibération valide d'une AG extraordinaire. L'April avait commis une telle erreur de jeunesse. Aujourd'hui, le quorum n'est que de 30 % des membres à jour de cotisation et c'est déjà un challenge à chaque AG qui nous a conduit à mettre en place le vote électronique et un suivi en temps réel du nombre de votants pour effectuer les relances nécessaires et s'assurer de l'obtention des quorums avant l'AG. = Un délai de 15 jours pour une convocation, c'est trop court. Lorsque je dois faire le déplacement à Paris depuis Toulouse, j'aime bien être prévenu longtemps à l'avance afin de pouvoir acheter mon billet d'avion à un prix raisonnable. Article 11 : = Rien n'étant dit du bureau dans les status, j'ai jeté un œil au règlement intérieur pour voir ce qui en était dit. J'ai constaté avec amusement que ce dernier faisait référence aux statuts... = Comment est élu le conseil d'administration ? Par listes, par candidatures individuelles ? Article 12 : = Si vous y tenez vraiment, limitez le nombre de délégations autorisées par personne présente à l'AG mais pas à une ! Trois ou six me semblent être des valeurs plus raisonnables. De manière plus générale, comme vous envisagez les subventions comme source de financement, prenez dès à présent en compte les critères nécessaires à la délivrance de certains agréments indispensables à l'obtention de certaines subventions. Les critères par exemple nécessaires à l'obtention de l'agrément « jeunesse et éducation populaire » (agrément auquel pourrait prétendre à terme OSM France) sont définis dans la section « Les critères » de la page ci-dessous : http://www.associations.gouv.fr/639-l-agrement-de-jeunesse-et-d.html Sébastien -- Sébastien Dinot, sebastien.di...@free.fr http://sebastien.dinot.free.fr/ Ne goûtez pas au logiciel libre, vous ne pourriez plus vous en passer ! ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
[OSM-talk-fr] Re : Re: problème fichier cadastre
une indication qu'il faut patienter en dessous du bouton ? didier --mapeur amateur-- - Mail d'origine - De: Philippe Pary phili...@cleo-carto.com À: Discussions sur OSM en français talk-fr@openstreetmap.org Envoyé: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 16:00:57 +0200 (CEST) Objet: Re: [OSM-talk-fr] problème fichier cadastre Le lundi 01 août 2011 à 14:56 +0200, didier2...@free.fr a écrit : maintenant il est plus gros (il manque la partie sud est) par l'interface http://cadastre.cleo-carto.org/ tu choisis le departement puis la ville envoyer ... et patience ... (ne pas fermer la page) ... patience dans la barre d'etat de ton navigateur il y a la progression et si c'est terminé Je vais améliorer ça un jour, promis Philippe ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [OSM-Talk-fr] Propositions des Statuts et Règlement de l'Association OpenStreetMap France
Le 02/08/11 01:03, Sébastien Dinot a écrit : Bonjour, Voici quelques remarques sur les statuts : Article 1 : = Le sigle « OSM » étant souvent utilisé en lieu et place du nom « OpenStreetMap », ne serait-il pas bon de mentionner l'équivalence entre « OpenStreetMap France » et « OSM France » ? Cela évitera par exemple l'invalidation d'un document qu'un administrateur ou qu'un salarié aura un peu trop hâtivement signé au nom d'« OSM France ». Article 2 : = J'aurais bien ajouté un lien vers les sites de la FSF et d'OSM pour enlever toute ambiguité. Peut-être que ces liens et quelques définitions (licence libre par exemple) auraient leur place dans un préambule. Article 3 : = Préciser la ville et le code postal dans les adresses. Art. 1,2, 3 : Très bonnes rmarques Article 5 : = Je trouve curieux qu'un membre bienfaiteur n'ait pas des droits au moins équivalents à ceux des membres actifs. Dit autrement, je ne vois aucune raison de priver un membre bienfaiteur du droit de vote et du droit d'assister à l'assemblée générale (et je ne suis même pas certain qu'il soit légal d'interdire à des membres d'une association à jour de cotisation l'accès à l'AG). Au passage, je n'ai pas lu le règlement intérieur in extenso mais j'ai quand même voulu voir comment vous y définissiez les membres actifs, bienfaiteurs et d'honneur. C'est... comment dire... perfectible ! À corriger de toute urgence ! AMHA, la définition précise des membres ne peut figurer que dans les statuts, mais seuls les membres honoraires et les membres de droit doivent être dispensés de cotisations. Ils doivent pouvoir être convoqués dans les instances (CA ou AG), les membres de droit ayant, en principe, le droit de voter et donc de délibérer. Les membre bienfaiteurs ne sont qu'une catégorie des membres actifs ayant payé une cotisation supérieure et ont donc les mêmes droits. Dans la loi de 1901, c'est la cotisation qui est la mesure ultime de l'appartenance, sauf si les statuts ne prévoient que des membres de droit (cela existe et c'est légal). On peut aussi décider que ceux qui font un don important peuvent demander à n'être que membre d'honneur. J'aimerai savoir si tout le monde juge nécessaire d'admettre les personnes morales? Cela me paraît dangereux, du moins tant que l'asso n'est pas en vitesse de croisière. Article 9 : = Vous devez absolument abaisser le quorum si vous voulez éviter la sclérose. Jamais vous n'arriverez à réunir 50 % des membres d'une association d'envergure nationale, même pour une décision importante, surtout en limitant aussi drastiquement le nombre de délégations que vous le faites dans l'article 12. En outre, si vous conservez le quorum actuel et que, constatant qu'il est impossible à atteindre, vous décidez de l'abaisser ultérieurement, vous aurez bien évidemment toutes les peines du monde à obtenir le quorum nécessaire à la délibération valide d'une AG extraordinaire. L'April avait commis une telle erreur de jeunesse. Aujourd'hui, le quorum n'est que de 30 % des membres à jour de cotisation et c'est déjà un challenge à chaque AG qui nous a conduit à mettre en place le vote électronique et un suivi en temps réel du nombre de votants pour effectuer les relances nécessaires et s'assurer de l'obtention des quorums avant l'AG. Les quorums ne doivent être ni trop bas, ni trop élevés, 25% me semblent raisonnables. = Un délai de 15 jours pour une convocation, c'est trop court. Lorsque je dois faire le déplacement à Paris depuis Toulouse, j'aime bien être prévenu longtemps à l'avance afin de pouvoir acheter mon billet d'avion à un prix raisonnable. 15 jours est usuel, car permettant de réagir rapidement en cas de crise. Idéalement, les convocations devraient partir entre 20 et 30 jours avant, même si 15 jours est le minimum statutaire. Article 11 : = Rien n'étant dit du bureau dans les status, j'ai jeté un œil au règlement intérieur pour voir ce qui en était dit. J'ai constaté avec amusement que ce dernier faisait référence aux statuts... Je suis partisan de bien restreindre les capacités du bureau (comosé des membres du CA ayant reçu une charge de celui-ci) aux affaires courantes et de lui imposer de rendre compte succinctement au CA suivant. La loi prévoit au minimum un président et un trésorier, les mentionner, ainsi que les autres charges utiles me semblent une bonne idée, en précisant que le CA peut les créer et les supprimer. Pour commencer : président, vice-président, trésorier, secrétaire, délégué à la communication, délégué aux infrastructures devaient suffire = Comment est élu le conseil d'administration ? Par listes, par candidatures individuelles ? Il n'est pas interdit de rester dans l'entre-deux et de demander à l'AG de
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [OSM-Talk-fr] Propositions des Statuts et Règlement de l'Association OpenStreetMap France
Bonjour, Romain MEHUT a écrit : Dites moi si je suis à côté de la plaque mais le déplacement physique des membres est-il une obligation? Le vote électronique me semble en effet une solution à envisager car prendre l'avion juste pour une AG c'est très limite du point de vue développement durable... Cela dépend de la manière dont on appréhende une AG. S'il s'agit simplement de donner son opinion sur des bilans moral et financier, il est effectivement déraisonnable de faire le déplacement. Vu les faibles enjeux, un vote par courrier électronique signé fait largement l'affaire. Si par contre on conçoit une AG et les moments qui l'entourent comme un instant de convivialité où l'on retrouve des personnes connues, où l'on en rencontre d'autres et où des projets peuvent éventuellement naître, cette AG mérite amplement le déplacement. Ma conception de l'AG est la seconde. Et sans doute que l'usage scandaleusement futil de l'avion que je fais à cette occasion est compensé par le fait que je vais tous les jours au travail à pied (ou à vélo à l'époque où je bossais à 13 km de chez moi). Sébastien -- Sébastien Dinot, sebastien.di...@free.fr http://sebastien.dinot.free.fr/ Ne goûtez pas au logiciel libre, vous ne pourriez plus vous en passer ! ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [OSM-Talk-fr] Propositions des Statuts et Règlement de l'Association OpenStreetMap France
Le 2 août 2011 01:03, Sébastien Dinot sebastien.di...@free.fr a écrit : Article 5 : = Je trouve curieux qu'un membre bienfaiteur n'ait pas des droits au moins équivalents à ceux des membres actifs. Dit autrement, je ne vois aucune raison de priver un membre bienfaiteur du droit de vote et du droit d'assister à l'assemblée générale (et je ne suis même pas certain qu'il soit légal d'interdire à des membres d'une association à jour de cotisation l'accès à l'AG). Tel que je le comprends le membre bienfaiteur n'est pas privé de ses droits, il y a simplement renoncé. En effet, les statuts ne précisent pas (si j'ai bien lu) sous quelle condition un membre prend le rôle actif ou bienfaiteur, j'en déduis que c'est le membre qui choisit de lui-même au moment de l'adhésion. Si mon interprétation est juste, je ne trouve pas ça idiot. Je suis adhérent à plusieurs associations parce que je respecte et soutiens pour leur action mais, faute de temps et de motivation, je ne souhaite pas prendre une part active à la gestion. Je préfèrerais alors avoir le rôle de bienfaiteur et ne pas reçevoir chaque année une épaisse liasse de document en prévision de chaque AG, un bulletin d'appel de cotisation me suffirait amplement ! J'ai eu du mal à arriver à cette interprétation, si c'est bien l'idée des rédacteurs des statuts, il faudra le clarifier un peu, voire trouver des adjectifs plus explicites. Quelque soit l'idée des rédacteurs, je trouve la remarque de Christian Rogel assez juste. Je trouve étonnant qu'un membre à jour de sa cotisation soit statutairement privé du droit de vote. On doit pouvoir arriver à créer un rôle inactif ou moins actif sans arriver à une telle extrêmité. Cordialement -- Gilles Bassière - Web/GIS software engineer http://gbassiere.free.fr/ ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Base de POI sous licence CC0
J'ai pas très confiance en ces données. De ce que j'en déduit les informations sont issues de crawler web, qui pompent des cordonnées ou des adresses sur le web. Elles sont ensuite géoréfencées (je ne sais pas comment). Comme source de données on retrouve de simple site web, mais aussi qype.fr ou encore l'annuaire infobel.com... facile de faire du CC0 comme ça... http://www.factual.com/t/RHT5pb/France_POI_and_Business_Listings Même 1 pas cents ! Fred Le 02/08/2011 15:46, Philippe Pary a écrit : Le mardi 02 août 2011 à 02:39 +0200, Thomas Gratier a écrit : Bonjour, Un déterrage pour signaler que la base de POI en CC0 encore difficilement accessible l'est maintenant beaucoup plus avec cette annonce http://blog.simplegeo.com/2011/08/01/august-updates/ et le lien direct vers le téléchargement (plus de 2 Go) Je prends le train en route, je n'ai pas effectué de recherches pour trouver la réponse à cette question : peut-on mirrorer de manière automatisée cette base (style en ouvrant un FTP sur lequel l'éditeur de cette base envoie automatiquement les mises à jours) ? Si oui, je ferai un miroir sur cleo-carto.org (maintenant qu'il y a un serveur dédié, autant l'utiliser !) Philippe ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] [OSM-Talk-fr] Propositions des Statuts et Règlement de l'Association OpenStreetMap France
Bonsoir, Christian Rogel a écrit : J'aimerai savoir si tout le monde juge nécessaire d'admettre les personnes morales? Nécessaire, non mais utile, oui. Leur cotisation plus importante accroit sensiblement le budget de l'association et lui permet d'envisager des projets plus ambitieux. Cela me paraît dangereux, du moins tant que l'asso n'est pas en vitesse de croisière. Absolument pas tant que l'on évite : - de créer des collèges d'adhérents (individus, associations, sociétés, établissements publics, collectivités territoriales, etc.) : - de pondérer le poids de chaque collège dans les votes comme qu'on peut le voir dans certaines associations. Si un adhérent = une voix quelque soit sa nature, tout va bien. 15 jours est usuel, car permettant de réagir rapidement en cas de crise. Idéalement, les convocations devraient partir entre 20 et 30 jours avant, même si 15 jours est le minimum statutaire. Pour info, les statuts de l'April prévoient l'envoi des convocations au moins 15 jours avant l'AG mais la déclaration des listes candidates doit se faire au moins deux mois avant ladite AG. Dans les faits, les adhérents sont donc prévenus de la date de l'AG plus de deux mois avant. L'essentiel, pour ce faire, est de prévoir une association ouverte, ce qui est le cas, et d'éviter que les salariés, s'il y en a, occupent des postes comme président ou trésorier. Il me semble qu'un avis du Conseil d'État Article 14 Il est périlleux de confier à l'AGO le soin de modifier les statuts : c'est propice à toutes les manipulations. D'habitude, on lui confie le soin de décider la modif sur la base d'un projet et c'est l'AGE qui décide. Je n'avais pas relevé ce point mais je partage cet avis. Sébastien -- Sébastien Dinot, sebastien.di...@free.fr http://sebastien.dinot.free.fr/ Ne goûtez pas au logiciel libre, vous ne pourriez plus vous en passer ! ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Base de POI sous licence CC0
Le 02/08/2011 23:52, Frédéric Rodrigo a écrit : J'ai pas très confiance en ces données. De ce que j'en déduit les informations sont issues de crawler web, qui pompent des cordonnées ou des adresses sur le web. Elles sont ensuite géoréfencées (je ne sais pas comment). Comme source de données on retrouve de simple site web, mais aussi qype.fr ou encore l'annuaire infobel.com... facile de faire du CC0 comme ça... Dans mon village de 500 âmes, il y a donc 9 fois la même entreprise à différente adresse et avec des noms qui ce ressemble beaucoup. J'en apprend beaucoup avec cette listes de POIs. ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
[Talk-GB] Public toilets in Devon
Devon Council are looking to work with OSM on their public toilet data: http://paulclarke.com/honestlyreal/2011/08/inconvenience/ (see comment 4, from Peter McClymont). -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] OSM talk at ShropGeek, Shrewsbury, 26 Sept
On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: Hi folks, I'm visiting my friends at ShropGeek, in Shrewsbury, on 26 September to talk about OSM and demonstrate the use of JOSM: http://osmshrewssep11.eventbrite.com/ While it may not be something for those of you on these lists (It's aimed at people new to OSM), please feel free to inform your contacts in the area, if you think it might interest them. Good luck, and let us all know how it goes! It would be great for us all to be sharing experiences and tips about doing these kind of things here on the talk-gb mailing list. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-us] osm leaflets
mailed two packs today, to steven johnson and josh kraayenbrink dont have your email addresses here so mailing the list ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] osm leaflets
Steven Johnson, How many of those leaflets do you want? I have several hundred. - Serge ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-cl] OpenStreetMap + Transantiago
Estimados, Como comente hace algunos días estamos trabajando para tener OpenStreetMap y la info de simt(http://web.simt.cl/simtweb/) juntos, acá va nuestro avance. http://50.56.31.19:5000/ sugerencias, ideas o comentarios. Saludos Gracias PD: Necesitamos algún diseñador que nos ayude con TransDroid https://market.android.com/details?id=cl.droid.transantiago, se ve refeo. ___ Talk-cl mailing list Talk-cl@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-cl
