Re: [AFMUG] list dead?

[Steve Jones]

I tried that and got arrested for desecration of a corpse

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021, 5:27 PM Adam Moffett  wrote:

> Necromancy required to resurrect?
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Steve Jones]

161 iq here, I ain't got stuck with that devil juice. Them doctorin folk
ain't turnin my bone box into no chemistry set.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 12:26 PM Carl Peterson 
wrote:

> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
>> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

David,
    Do you have any research of the percentage of people who "have a 
valid medical reason" for not taking the vaccine?   I don't imagine it's 
anywhere near the 45% of the US population the is refusing that are not 
below the current age limit.   I would WAG that it's probably a lot less 
than the 20% number not taking it that would get us to effective herd 
immunity.


Now the kids are getting it and that we don't have a solution for.

On 7/23/21 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS 
spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing. 
 People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not 
COVID?  If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full body 
condom if you come within 100’ of another person.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron 
 wrote:




There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the 
shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other 
medications.   Each decision should be based on risk/reward of that 
drug and the medical condition being treated.   To think that you 
know everyone’s medical situation better than they do doesn’t seem 
very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them selfish for 
making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest 
seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not 
to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take 
a medical treatment against their will.   You may feel that we should 
force them to take the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you 
would feel the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb 
overcrowding of the earth.   Obviously there is a line somewhere 
about forced treatment for the greater good.  I am not attempting to 
determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid 
medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they 
shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that decision.   It doesn’t 
seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see things differently 
than some other folks.   So be it.


I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have 
to act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human 
race.   Seems like a disconnect there.


If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm 
to others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for 
others.  We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a 
car.   I doubt that very many of us on this list can say that.  We 
would never allow the sale of fatty foods.   We would force each and 
everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted range.   Keep in 
mind life is risky.   We don’t need to do stupid things, but being 
alive carries with it the risk of dying.    We are all much more 
likely to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer 
than we are of Covid.   Those are just the facts.  Many folks make 
small adjustments to reduce the risk of those likely causes of 
mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make big changes 
to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death.


I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these 
things.   While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of 
folks to make the best choice for their situation.   I also respect 
the right of someone who is not in the best physical condition to eat 
a steak.   I realize that a drunk driver might kill me some day, but 
I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and expect that 
most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive when 
they have had too much.


Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if 
we never allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we understand that 
certain personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a 
disease that might kill us.   I have a tough time with the mass 
hypochondria surrounding this situation.


Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep 
perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of 
shape if they are already vaccinated.   I guess they don’t believe 
the vaccine will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry 
about.


I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that 
it is with us permanently. We will have yearly updates to the 
vaccination, but we’ll never be rid of it.   Not because people 
aren’t getting vaccinated, but because it will always mutate ahead of 
the vaccine, just like the flu virus.   Please don’t take this as an 
argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as it will 
save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100% 
effective……. 


I will lay a friendly wager down. Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic 
several years ago.   Did we force people to stop having sex or many 
of the other high risk things that led to AIDS?   Does anyone even 
talk about 

Re: [AFMUG] Fwd: OT somewhat political

[Robert]

A brake related topic that has some level of value here is people who 
tow cars with their RV's.   Some follow the law and get a braking system 
for the towed vehicle.   It's kinda common sense ( besides the law in 
all states ).   Some say "Hey my RV stops fine without it"  Until it 
doesn't or the towed vehicle breaks away from the RV and takes out a 
bunch of other cars/people.


i.e.   It's not about you and what risks there are to you.   It's about 
the risks to others.


On 7/23/21 2:10 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:



Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:


*From:* Chuck McCown 
*Date:* July 23, 2021 at 2:40:46 PM MDT
*To:* David Coudron 
*Subject:* *Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political*

 You really think the FDA approval has that much value?  When time 
is of the essence and we discover cutting your arm off if you sprout 
horns will keep you from infecting others we will all be carrying 
machetes while waiting on the FDA.  They are not geared for 
emergencies like this.  Their emergency approval is plenty good 
enough for me.


And allowing you on the freeway without having brakes is tantamount 
to giving machine guns to monkeys.


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, David Coudron 
 wrote:




Chuck,

If you were at the base of a mountain with lava flowing down it, 
you’d drive that car with no brakes.   It is a risk/reward 
situation.    I do know some folks personally that have health 
situations that wouldn’t risk taking something until it has full FDA 
approval.   Not sure why that is so weird.   Unfortunately this 
topic is so explosive you can’t have a good discussion without the 
“they should all be in jail” type of comment.   If it was in jest, 
as many comments in this list are, that would be fine.   Everyone 
needs to have a sense of humor.   I don’t believe that it is.


I think you can probably take me off the list going forward.   We 
don’t seem to hit technical topics that often, and while I enjoy so 
many of the folks on the list, I am finding more and more often the 
topics are too devoid of substantive argument.


Thanks,

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:19 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Cc:* Chuck McCown 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

This is not like choosing to not wear a seatbelt.  This is like 
choosing to drive without brakes.


Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:11 PM, David Coudron
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:



I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t
believe I have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I
can send you the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you
want to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however,
why is not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?  
That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We don’t let folks on the
plane based on the likelihood that those on the no-fly list
probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   We still
check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the
FDA approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just
tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway,
we won’t bother putting you through the approval process”   We
don’t do that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are
helping the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon
the scientific merits of the situation. Unfortunately both side
love to poke at the intelligence of those that don’t agree with
their decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many
folks publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know
that it is not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting
it should have.   But I don’t think that those of us that
decided to go ahead with the vaccination get to make medical
decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with an experimental
vaccine.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of
your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about
suggesting that folks who have chosen not to take the
vaccine are not that smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this
is not an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the
Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several
facts.  Among them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a
long time, but around 90% 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

Because the higher/longer the reproduction virus load the more likely 
the creation of a worse variant.   It's NOT about YOU.  IF you don't 
want to take the vaccine, then you can stay home.   Not those that are 
forming the barrier to transmission.


On 7/23/21 2:03 PM, Dennis Burgess wrote:


Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by 
a NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free 
society, if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.


*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess*

*
*Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net 



Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 



Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net 



*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Jan-GAMs
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like 
a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed 
persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child 
is a bit difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be 
allowed in public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with 
Covid there is the potential for a new variant even worse than the 
Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a 
health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large.


On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:

I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t
believe I have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can
send you the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want
to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why
is not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That
doesn’t seem so unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane
based on the likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably
won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   We still check each
and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval
process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug
companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t
bother putting you through the approval process”   We don’t do
that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are
helping the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the
scientific merits of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love
to poke at the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their
decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks
publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is
not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting
it should have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided
to go ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for
those who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.

*From:* AF 
 *On Behalf Of *Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of
your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting
that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not
that smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is
not an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because
they are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they
apply.  Anybody applying for FDA approval already has a pretty
good idea whether it's going to go through or not.  Presumably
people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport
expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a
CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.


2.
 3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the
virus. While we likely all agree that there is a very
good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent
it, it is far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming
infected, but it clearly prevents them 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Sorry.  When the list is down for a few days I am jonesin’ for a fix.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 7:17 PM, Robert  wrote:
> 
>  I have thought the same thing..  You could even consider the Dems from Tx 
> as an anti-vax attack squad...  
> 
> 
> 
> But Kids...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 7/23/21 10:55 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
>> I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start 
>> saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer 
>> that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson  
>> wrote:
>>> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when 
>>> it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people 
>>> have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid 
>>> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.  
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
>>> wrote:
 If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
 increase, right?  Always good when your team wins. 
 -- 
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> - Forrest
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

I just heard that in my neighborhood two grandparents, vaxed, had been 
out and about, and got cases.   They then took care of their grandkids 
for the weekend.   Yep, grandkids came down with it.   The grandparents 
have very mild cases, the grandkids are still unknown at this time.   
These are part of the ramifications.   Yes we are going to be going back 
to masks.


Because the children.



On 7/23/21 1:32 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:


There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like 
a whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed 
persons are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child 
is a bit difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be 
allowed in public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with 
Covid there is the potential for a new variant even worse than the 
Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a 
health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large.


On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:


I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe 
I have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you 
the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.


Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is 
not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t 
seem so unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the 
likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to 
get on the plane anyway.   We still check each and every person to 
make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure.   
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure 
you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.


I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are 
helping the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the 
scientific merits of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to 
poke at the intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.


There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks 
publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is 
not FDA approved?


Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it 
should have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go 
ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those 
who aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting
that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that
smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long 
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they 
are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  
Anybody applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea 
whether it's going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a 
no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport expecting to board 
a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know 
they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.


2.
 3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it
is far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can 
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming 
infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.


4.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.

I've never heard such an argument.

 3. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every
medicine you take has some level of side effect. The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that
they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval
process exists to ensure we understand the potential of
serious side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you
are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this
experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of
you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an
intelligent thing to say “I am 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

I have thought the same thing..  You could even consider the Dems from 
Tx as an anti-vax attack squad...




But Kids...




On 7/23/21 10:55 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to 
start saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we 
would prefer that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go 
around".



On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>> wrote:


That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really
dumb when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a
subset**of people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and
specifically the covid vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ
average will increase, right? Always good when your team wins.
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com





-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




--
- Forrest



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jaime Solorza]

>From liberal hippie me...

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:38 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> They don't even need to sneeze. They shed virus just by breathing. And the
> point that many (most) anti-vaxxers seem to gloss over is that it's not
> just about them, it's about all the innocant people they can give it to
> while they're infectious.
>
> This is an off topic topic.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 7/23/2021 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying
> you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been
> prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t
> want the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’
> of another person.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron 
>  wrote:
>
> 
>
> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles
> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision
> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being
> treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than
> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them
> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical
> interest seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding
> not to take it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a
> medical treatment against their will.   You may feel that we should force
> them to take the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you would feel
> the same about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of
> the earth.   Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for
> the greater good.  I am not attempting to determine where that line is,
> only suggesting that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to
> take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that
> decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see
> things differently than some other folks.   So be it.
>
>
>
> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to
> act like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems
> like a disconnect there.
>
>
>
> If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to
> others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.
> We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt
> that very many of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the
> sale of fatty foods.   We would force each and everyone to get to a body
> mass within our accepted range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t
> need to do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of
> dying.We are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke
> related illness, or cancer than we are of Covid.   Those are just the
> facts.  Many folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those
> likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on decisions to make
> big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of death.
>
>
>
> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things.
> While I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the
> best choice for their situation.   I also respect the right of someone who
> is not in the best physical condition to eat a steak.   I realize that a
> drunk driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals
> to go to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough
> not to drink and drive when they have had too much.
>
>
>
> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we
> never allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we understand that certain
> personal freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that
> might kill us.   I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding
> this situation.
>
>
>
> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep
> perspective. I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape
> if they are already vaccinated.   I guess they don’t believe the vaccine
> will work because if it does, there is nothing to worry about.
>
>
>
> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is
> with us permanently.   We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but
> we’ll never be rid of it.   Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated,
> but because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu
> virus.   Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we
> absolutely should as it will save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below,
> vaccines aren’t 100% effective……. 
>
>
>
> I will lay a friendly wager down.  Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic
> several years ago.   Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the
> other high risk things that led to 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

  
  
They don't even need to sneeze. They shed virus just by
  breathing. And the point that many (most) anti-vaxxers seem to
  gloss over is that it's not just about them, it's about all the
  innocant people they can give it to while they're infectious.
This is an off topic topic. 



bp

On 7/23/2021 4:20 PM, Chuck McCown via
  AF wrote:


  
  AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS
  spraying you down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.
   People have been prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why
  not COVID?  If you don’t want the vax, fine but you need a full
  body condom if you come within 100’ of another person.
  
  Sent from my iPhone
  
On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David
  Coudron  wrote:
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
There are valid reasons for deciding to
  take this vaccine, the shingles vaccine, the flu vaccine,
  or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision should
  be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical
  condition being treated.   To think that you know
  everyone’s medical situation better than they do doesn’t
  seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them
  selfish for making a decision they believe is in their
  best medical interest seems overly judgmental. Yes,
  there are people are deciding not to take it simply
  because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a
  medical treatment against their will.   You may feel that
  we should force them to take the treatment for the better
  good.   I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory
  castration of young men to curb overcrowding of the
  earth.   Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced
  treatment for the greater good.  I am not attempting to
  determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks
  have valid medical reasons for not deciding to take the
  vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making
  that decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I
  am learning I see things differently than some other
  folks.   So be it.
 
I love the argument that we have to get
  vaccinated, but we still have to act like the vaccine
  doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems like
  a disconnect there.  
  
 
If we were really so worried about
  infecting others or causing harm to others, we would avoid
  all other activities that create risk for others.  We’d
  never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a
  car.   I doubt that very many of us on this list can say
  that.  We would never allow the sale of fatty foods.   We
  would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within
  our accepted range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We
  don’t need to do stupid things, but being alive carries
  with it the risk of dying.    We are all much more likely
  to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer
  than we are of Covid.   Those are just the facts.  Many
  folks make small adjustments to reduce the risk of those 
  likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on
  decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility
  of those causes of death.  
  
 
I have long ago decided not to live in
  constant fear of these things.   While I chose to be
  vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best
  choice for their situation.   I also respect the right of
  someone who is not in the best physical condition to eat a
  steak.   I realize that a drunk driver might kill me some
  day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar
  and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough
  not to drink and drive when they have had too much.  
  
 
Keep in mind that this virus would have
  never come to our country if we never allowed anyone in or
  out of it.   But we understand that certain personal
  freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease
  that might kill us.   I have a tough time with the mass
  hypochondria surrounding this situation.    
 
Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone
  

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

AIDS was / Is 100% avoidable.  COVID is like someone with AIDS spraying you 
down with their precious bodily fluids by sneezing.  People have been 
prosecuted for infecting others with AIDS.  Why not COVID?  If you don’t want 
the vax, fine but you need a full body condom if you come within 100’ of 
another person.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 4:24 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles 
> vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision 
> should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being 
> treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than 
> they do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them 
> selfish for making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest 
> seems overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take 
> it simply because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical 
> treatment against their will.   You may feel that we should force them to 
> take the treatment for the better good.   I doubt you would feel the same 
> about mandatory castration of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth.   
> Obviously there is a line somewhere about forced treatment for the greater 
> good.  I am not attempting to determine where that line is, only suggesting 
> that folks have valid medical reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine 
> and they shouldn’t be publicly shamed for making that decision.   It doesn’t 
> seem that far fetched, but I am learning I see things differently than some 
> other folks.   So be it.
>  
> I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act 
> like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems like a 
> disconnect there.  
>  
> If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to 
> others, we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.  
> We’d never drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt 
> that very many of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the 
> sale of fatty foods.   We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass 
> within our accepted range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t need to 
> do stupid things, but being alive carries with it the risk of dying.We 
> are all much more likely to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or 
> cancer than we are of Covid.   Those are just the facts.  Many folks make 
> small adjustments to reduce the risk of those  likely causes of mortality, 
> but have long ago passed on decisions to make big changes to eliminate the 
> possibility of those causes of death.  
>  
> I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things.   While 
> I chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best 
> choice for their situation.   I also respect the right of someone who is not 
> in the best physical condition to eat a steak.   I realize that a drunk 
> driver might kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go 
> to a bar and expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough not to 
> drink and drive when they have had too much.  
>  
> Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we never 
> allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we understand that certain personal 
> freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that might kill us.  
>  I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation.   
>  
> Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective.  
>I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are 
> already vaccinated.   I guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work 
> because if it does, there is nothing to worry about.
>  
> I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is 
> with us permanently.   We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but 
> we’ll never be rid of it.   Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but 
> because it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus.  
>  Please don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely 
> should as it will save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines 
> aren’t 100% effective……. 
>  
> I will lay a friendly wager down.  Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic several 
> years ago.   Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the other high 
> risk things that led to AIDS?   Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore?   
> 32 million people died of AIDS and people still die from it.   No one talks 
> about it any more.  Covid will be the same way in 10 years.  That is my bet.  
>  
> Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My only original 
> point was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated.   
> We can’t and shouldn’t 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Daniel White]

Those are memories I'd rather forget.  We did have a choice on the
anthrax vaccine, and had to sign a waiver to take it.  I figured what
the hell... the Marines owned my body at that point anyways.

photograph  
Daniel White
Co-Founder
phone: +1 (702) 470-2770
direct:+1 (702) 470-2766

> Jan-GAMs 
> July 23, 2021 at 14:23
>
> Back in "boot" we lined up by the hundreds and got shots till our arms
> bled.  I don't recall being asked to volunteer or choose which shot I
> was going to get.  They did have the keys to the brig, I didn't.
>
> On 7/23/21 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
>
> Chuck McCown via AF 
> July 23, 2021 at 14:08
> She was imprisoned multiple times.  She lost her liberty, certainly
> much more of a heavy hand than being required to get vaccinated.  The
> government has a duty of care as part of being the soverign.  They
> must act to protect the public.  My grandfather was a cop whose duty
> included forcibly removing contagious people to that “pest house” for
> quarantine.  I think a vaccine requirement is what the government
> should do to protect the greatest portion of the population.  Anyone
> here been in the military and take a pass on the shots?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> David Coudron 
> July 23, 2021 at 13:59
>
> Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s
> situation.   I understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have
> an idea of what that story is about.   My basic understanding was that
> an individual who knew they were sick was intentionally infecting
> others.   Certainly a despicable act if that was the case.   To better
> put that in the context of today’s situation I would want to know
> these things:
>
>  1. Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?  
>  2. What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I
> suspect typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data
> to back that up.
>  3. I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting
> people is a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid
> college intentional infection parties, we don’t really have people
> intentionally trying to infect others.  
>
>  
>
> If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu
> vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in
> high risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required.   We
> don’t even require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of
> other annoying and/or dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA
> approved vaccines.  
>
>  
>
> However, I would reiterate this:
>
> If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if
> others haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think
> it is necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for their
> own good will against their will?   
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown 
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
> *To:* David Coudron 
> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>  
>
> One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jaime Solorza]

Bingo Forest...you can't fix stupid.
My flame retardant suit will protect me.
Lost two cousins and four friends to it so far...
So fuck Covid-19

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 11:56 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start
> saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer
> that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
> wrote:
>
>> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
>> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
>> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
>> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average
>>> will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
> - Forrest
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

There are valid reasons for deciding to take this vaccine, the shingles 
vaccine, the flu vaccine, or a myriad of other medications.   Each decision 
should be based on risk/reward of that drug and the medical condition being 
treated.   To think that you know everyone’s medical situation better than they 
do doesn’t seem very feasible and awfully presumptive.   To call them selfish 
for making a decision they believe is in their best medical interest seems 
overly judgmental. Yes, there are people are deciding not to take it simply 
because they think they shouldn’t be forced to take a medical treatment against 
their will.   You may feel that we should force them to take the treatment for 
the better good.   I doubt you would feel the same about mandatory castration 
of young men to curb overcrowding of the earth.   Obviously there is a line 
somewhere about forced treatment for the greater good.  I am not attempting to 
determine where that line is, only suggesting that folks have valid medical 
reasons for not deciding to take the vaccine and they shouldn’t be publicly 
shamed for making that decision.   It doesn’t seem that far fetched, but I am 
learning I see things differently than some other folks.   So be it.

I love the argument that we have to get vaccinated, but we still have to act 
like the vaccine doesn’t work in order to save the human race.   Seems like a 
disconnect there.

If we were really so worried about infecting others or causing harm to others, 
we would avoid all other activities that create risk for others.  We’d never 
drive a car, much less have a beer and get in a car.   I doubt that very many 
of us on this list can say that.  We would never allow the sale of fatty foods. 
  We would force each and everyone to get to a body mass within our accepted 
range.   Keep in mind life is risky.   We don’t need to do stupid things, but 
being alive carries with it the risk of dying.We are all much more likely 
to die of heart disease, stroke related illness, or cancer than we are of 
Covid.   Those are just the facts.  Many folks make small adjustments to reduce 
the risk of those  likely causes of mortality, but have long ago passed on 
decisions to make big changes to eliminate the possibility of those causes of 
death.

I have long ago decided not to live in constant fear of these things.   While I 
chose to be vaccinated, I respect the right of folks to make the best choice 
for their situation.   I also respect the right of someone who is not in the 
best physical condition to eat a steak.   I realize that a drunk driver might 
kill me some day, but I respect the right of individuals to go to a bar and 
expect that most (but not all) are responsible enough not to drink and drive 
when they have had too much.

Keep in mind that this virus would have never come to our country if we never 
allowed anyone in or out of it.   But we understand that certain personal 
freedoms are worth the possibility of catching a disease that might kill us.   
I have a tough time with the mass hypochondria surrounding this situation.

Sorry, I am not meaning to make anyone mad, just trying to keep perspective.
 I just don’t understand why folks get so bent out of shape if they are already 
vaccinated.   I guess they don’t believe the vaccine will work because if it 
does, there is nothing to worry about.

I wager that given Covid’s relation to influenza like viruses, that it is with 
us permanently.   We will have yearly updates to the vaccination, but we’ll 
never be rid of it.   Not because people aren’t getting vaccinated, but because 
it will always mutate ahead of the vaccine, just like the flu virus.   Please 
don’t take this as an argument to not work on vaccines, we absolutely should as 
it will save lives.   But as Carl pointed out below, vaccines aren’t 100% 
effective……. 

I will lay a friendly wager down.  Remember, we had a AIDS epidemic several 
years ago.   Did we force people to stop having sex or many of the other high 
risk things that led to AIDS?   Does anyone even talk about AIDS anymore?   32 
million people died of AIDS and people still die from it.   No one talks about 
it any more.  Covid will be the same way in 10 years.  That is my bet.

Again, lots of stuff to poke holes in here I am sure.   My only original point 
was that there are valid reasons folks chose not to get vaccinated.   We can’t 
and shouldn’t know what they are, but should respect their right to chose.



From: AF  On Behalf Of Carl Peterson
Sent: Friday, July3, 2021 4:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy perspective, you need 
to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1.  We know 
that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even if most of 
that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something since no vaccine is 
100% effective and some 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Carl Peterson]

No vaccination is 100% effective.  From a public policy perspective, you
need to pull on the levers that work in order to get R0 to be less than 1.
We know that a good percentage of people will follow a mask mandate.  Even
if most of that group is vaccinated that lever will still do something
since no vaccine is 100% effective and some number of that population is
walking around as symptom-free carriers at any given time.

Getting most people vaccinated would be the best way to lower R0, but if
someone is too self centered to care about their neighbors or their country
there isn't much you can do to make them care.  That lever isn't doing much
these days.  The issue here really is about what is best for society vs
what an individual thinks is best for themselves.  An individual's personal
risk of having serious Covid complications is pretty low so if
they believe there is some risk to the vaccine and don't account for
externalities, e.g. them infecting other people, then it's hard to convince
them to get vaccinated.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 4:05 PM Dennis Burgess 
wrote:

> Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a
> NON-FDA approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free society,
> if you are so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.
>
>
>
>
>
> *[image: LTI-Full_175px]*
>
> *Dennis Burgess*
>
>
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
>
> *Link Technologies, Inc* -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>
> *Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
>
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Jan-GAMs
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a
> whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed persons
> are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit
> difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in
> public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the
> potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed
> persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to everyone
> around them and to the public at large.
>
> On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I
> have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the
> Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>
>
>
> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not
> OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so
> unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that
> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane
> anyway.   We still check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we
> do the FDA approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell
> drug companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother
> putting you through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good
> reason.
>
>
>
> I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping
> the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits
> of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the
> intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.
>
>
>
> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks
> publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA
> approved?
>
>
>
> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should
> have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with
> the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t
> comfortable with an experimental vaccine.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>
>
>
> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
>
> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks
> who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.
>
>
>
>1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
>FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork
>clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
>
>
>1. This is not FDA approved.
>
> It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time,
> but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty
> well tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for
> FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go
> through or not.  Presumably people 

[AFMUG] Fwd: OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Chuck McCown 
> Date: July 23, 2021 at 2:40:46 PM MDT
> To: David Coudron 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
> 
> You really think the FDA approval has that much value?  When time is of the 
> essence and we discover cutting your arm off if you sprout horns will keep 
> you from infecting others we will all be carrying machetes while waiting on 
> the FDA.  They are not geared for emergencies like this.  Their emergency 
> approval is plenty good enough for me.
> 
> And allowing you on the freeway without having brakes is tantamount to giving 
> machine guns to monkeys.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, David Coudron  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Chuck,
>>  
>> If you were at the base of a mountain with lava flowing down it, you’d drive 
>> that car with no brakes.   It is a risk/reward situation.I do know some 
>> folks personally that have health situations that wouldn’t risk taking 
>> something until it has full FDA approval.   Not sure why that is so weird.   
>> Unfortunately this topic is so explosive you can’t have a good discussion 
>> without the “they should all be in jail” type of comment.   If it was in 
>> jest, as many comments in this list are, that would be fine.   Everyone 
>> needs to have a sense of humor.   I don’t believe that it is.
>>  
>> I think you can probably take me off the list going forward.   We don’t seem 
>> to hit technical topics that often, and while I enjoy so many of the folks 
>> on the list, I am finding more and more often the topics are too devoid of 
>> substantive argument. 
>>  
>> Thanks,
>>  
>>  
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
>> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:19 PM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> Cc: Chuck McCown 
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>  
>> This is not like choosing to not wear a seatbelt.  This is like choosing to 
>> drive without brakes.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:11 PM, David Coudron  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
>> stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna 
>> sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>>  
>> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK 
>> to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so 
>> unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that 
>> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.  
>>  We still check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA 
>> approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug 
>> companies “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting 
>> you through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good reason.
>>  
>> I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
>> situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of 
>> the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of 
>> those that don’t agree with their decision.  
>>  
>> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
>> shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? 
>>  
>> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
>> have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
>> vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable 
>> with an experimental vaccine.
>>  
>>  
>> From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
>> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>>  
>> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
>> 
>> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
>> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
>> have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 
>>  
>> Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
>> approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork 
>> clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
>> This is not FDA approved.  
>> It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, but 
>> around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
>> tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for FDA 
>> approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or 
>> not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the 
>> airport expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a 
>> CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.  
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we likely 
>> all agree that there is a very good likelihood that 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Dennis Burgess]

Why does someone who has made an informed choice not to get vaxxed by a NON-FDA 
approved drug have not sit out in timeout?  This is a free society, if you are 
so scared, you stay home. I will take my chances.


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:32 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political


There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a 
whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public.  Un-vaxxed persons are a 
health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit difficult.  
Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in public.  Every time a 
non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is the potential for a new variant 
even worse than the Delta variant.  Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as 
they are a health-hazard to everyone around them and to the public at large.
On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:
I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna sheet 
I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to 
say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so unreasonable.  
We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the 
no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   We still check 
each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process 
to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty 
sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the 
situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those 
that don’t agree with their decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with 
an experimental vaccine.


From: AF  On Behalf Of 
Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political


I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, but 
around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for FDA 
approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or 
not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport 
expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they 
know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.



 *
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split hairs 
and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
prevents them from dying.



 *

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.



  1.Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine 
you take has some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have 
such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The 
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious 
side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks 
are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

We can do that if we have to.  Thanks anti vaxxers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:48 PM, Dennis Burgess  wrote:
> 
> 
> St. Louis just went into another mask mandate even if you HAVE been 
> vaccinated!  Lol.
>  
>  
> 
> Dennis Burgess
> 
> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com
> Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:27 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Cc: Chuck McCown 
> Subject: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins. 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Dennis Burgess]

St. Louis just went into another mask mandate even if you HAVE been vaccinated! 
 Lol.


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com
Need MikroTik Cloud Management: https://cloud.linktechs.net

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:27 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jay Weekley]

I would like to add "so we can visit our parents in nursing homes" to 
your list.  My dad was in a nursing home for the last year and half of 
his life with a form of dementia and my mom and I visited him almost 
every day.  We both agreed that it was good he died before covid because 
he probably would not have understood why we stopped coming to see him.


Chuck Macenski wrote:
Q: Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that 
aren’t vaccinated?


A: A few reasons:

  * We are tired of wearing masks
  * We don't want to get sick (nothing is 100%)
  * We want open ICU beds in case we need them

If you find someone who has had a conversation with their physician 
and it was recommended that they not getting the vaccine, sobeit. I 
don't think that happens very often.



On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 2:44 PM Chuck McCown via AF > wrote:


One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam
free?

Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:



Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting
that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that
smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among
them are:
 1. This is not FDA approved.
 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the
virus.   While we likely all agree that there is a very
good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it,
it is far from a proven fact.
 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level of side
effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible
side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the
potential of serious side effects and drug interaction
issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you
have to take this experimental drug to prevent this
incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or
dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not
sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this
disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.  
It used to be that people relied upon a conversation with

their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use of
a drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly
shame people into using experimental drugs.
 3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full
understanding of drug interactions with other medicines folks
need to take.   We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval
processes for good reason. If for example, you were under 40
and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very
fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully
understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of
the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a
good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I
know data like that is certainly not available yet.
 4. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that
have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental
drug?Does it make them feel smarter?   We have people not
getting flu vaccinations every year, and that is with FDA
approved medicine. But now all of a sudden it is OK to
ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data
on an experimental drug for which the majority of the
population has a very low chance of serious illness or
death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss
the facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about
the risk/reward of this particular vaccine. Two years from
now, with an FDA approval in place and a full understanding
of drug interactions and effectiveness of the vaccine the
conversation might look completely different.   Right now, I
believe some very intelligent people are looking at the
risk/reward and saying “not now, but probably some day as
this will become the new yearly flu vaccine”.   Until then,
my risk of virus related illness doesn’t warrant a decision
to take the vaccine.
 5. Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

There is no having a sane discussion on this topic.  This is more like a 
whining child having an open temper-tantrum in public. Un-vaxxed persons 
are a health hazard and attempting to explain this to a child is a bit 
difficult.  Those who don't have a vaccine should not be allowed in 
public.  Every time a non-vaxxed person gets sick with Covid there is 
the potential for a new variant even worse than the Delta variant.  
Un-vaxxed persons should be quarrantined as they are a health-hazard to 
everyone around them and to the public at large.


On 7/23/21 1:11 PM, David Coudron wrote:


I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe 
I have stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you 
the Moderna sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.


Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is 
not OK to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t 
seem so unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the 
likelihood that those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get 
on the plane anyway.   We still check each and every person to make 
sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process to make sure.   
Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure 
you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.


I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping 
the situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific 
merits of the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the 
intelligence of those that don’t agree with their decision.


There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks 
publicly shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not 
FDA approved?


Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it 
should have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go 
ahead with the vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who 
aren’t comfortable with an experimental vaccine.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of * Adam Moffett
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long 
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they 
are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody 
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's 
going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't 
routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane. 
Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the 
drug test.  Same idea.


2.
 3. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is
far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can 
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming 
infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.


4.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.

I've never heard such an argument.

 3.   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.  
Every medicine you take has some level of side effect.   The
vast majority of medicines have such negligible side effects,
that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval
process exists to ensure we understand the potential of
serious side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are
30 years old and folks are saying you have to take this
experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of
you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an
intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting
seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of
using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine
personal risk of disease and use of a drug.    Apparently we
no longer do that.   We publicly shame people into using
experimental drugs.



 4. Since it is not FDA approved, we 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

Back in "boot" we lined up by the hundreds and got shots till our arms 
bled.  I don't recall being asked to volunteer or choose which shot I 
was going to get.  They did have the keys to the brig, I didn't.


On 7/23/21 1:08 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
She was imprisoned multiple times.  She lost her liberty, certainly 
much more of a heavy hand than being required to get vaccinated.  The 
government has a duty of care as part of being the soverign.  They 
must act to protect the public.  My grandfather was a cop whose duty 
included forcibly removing contagious people to that “pest house” for 
quarantine.  I think a vaccine requirement is what the government 
should do to protect the greatest portion of the population.  Anyone 
here been in the military and take a pass on the shots?


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:59 PM, David Coudron 
 wrote:




Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s 
situation.   I understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have 
an idea of what that story is about.   My basic understanding was 
that an individual who knew they were sick was intentionally 
infecting others.   Certainly a despicable act if that was the 
case.   To better put that in the context of today’s situation I 
would want to know these things:


 1. Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?
 2. What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I
suspect typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data
to back that up.
 3. I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting
people is a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid
college intentional infection parties, we don’t really have
people intentionally trying to infect others.

If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu 
vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in 
high risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required. We 
don’t even require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of 
other annoying and/or dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA 
approved vaccines.


However, I would reiterate this:

If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if 
others haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think 
it is necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for 
their own good will against their will?


Regards,

*From:* Chuck McCown 
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
*To:* David Coudron 
*Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?

Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:



Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting
that folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that
smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.
 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the
virus.   While we likely all agree that there is a very
good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it,
it is far from a proven fact.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.    Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level of side
effect. The vast majority of medicines have such negligible
side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the
potential of serious side effects and drug interaction
issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you
have to take this experimental drug to prevent this
incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or
dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not
sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this
disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.  
It used to be that people relied upon a conversation with
their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use of
a drug.    Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly
shame people into using experimental drugs.
 3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full
understanding of drug interactions with other medicines folks
need to take.   We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all. We have FDA approval
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under
40 and were taking seizure control medication, 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Mike Hammett]

"It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the situation." 
Unfortunately, even scientists are being censored on social media. Real ones 
with real things to say, not Cletus and his Bill Gates 5G malarkey. A podcast 
episode with one of the inventors of the mRNA process was taken down because it 
wasn't 100% in line with CDC\WHO. Same thing has happened with plenty of other 
discipline-relevant scientists and their social media, podcasts, etc. talking 
about scientific issues. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "David Coudron"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:11:09 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 



I know, we can all make our own decisions. However, I don’t believe I have 
stated anything that varies from the facts. I can send you the Moderna sheet I 
received with my vaccine if you want to see that. 

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to 
say that I want to wait for the approval? That doesn’t seem so unreasonable. We 
don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the no-fly 
list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway. We still check each and 
every person to make sure. Just like we do the FDA approval process to make 
sure. Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty sure 
you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval process” We 
don’t do that for good reason. 

I agree with you on the memes both ways. Neither approach are helping the 
situation. It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the 
situation. Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those 
that don’t agree with their decision. 

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? 

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
have. But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with 
an experimental vaccine. 




From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM 
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list. 

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote: 


Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 


1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts. Among them are: 




1. This is not FDA approved. 


It has an emergency use authorization. FDA approval takes a long time, but 
around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody applying for FDA approval 
already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or not. 
Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport 
expecting to board a plane. Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they 
know they'll fail the drug test. Same idea. 







1. 
2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. 



99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated. We can split hairs 
and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
prevents them from dying. 







1. 


1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. 


I've never heard such an argument. 





1. Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every medicine you 
take has some level of side effect. The vast majority of medicines have such 
negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe. The FDA 
approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side 
effects and drug interaction issues. If you are 30 years old and folks are 
saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small 
chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent 
thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from 
this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”. It used to be 
that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal 
risk of disease and use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly 
shame people into using experimental drugs. 









1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

Typhoid carriers are asymptomatic.  Mary was a Typhoid carrier. Not much 
different than many Covid carriers, asymptomatic!  As I've been saying 
for over a year, quarantine the assholes until after the disease is 
gone!  If the carriers cased the death of someone they should get jail.


On 7/23/21 12:59 PM, David Coudron wrote:


Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s 
situation.   I understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have 
an idea of what that story is about.   My basic understanding was that 
an individual who knew they were sick was intentionally infecting 
others. Certainly a despicable act if that was the case.   To better 
put that in the context of today’s situation I would want to know 
these things:


 1. Was there typhoid vaccine that was generally available?
 2. What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I
suspect typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data
to back that up.
 3. I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting
people is a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid
college intentional infection parties, we don’t really have people
intentionally trying to infect others.

If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu 
vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in 
high risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required.   We 
don’t even require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of 
other annoying and/or dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA 
approved vaccines.


However, I would reiterate this:

If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if 
others haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think 
it is necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for their 
own good will against their will?


Regards,

*From:* Chuck McCown 
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
*To:* David Coudron 
*Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?

Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:



Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.

 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not
an FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna
vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated several facts. Among
them are:

 1. This is not FDA approved.
 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is
far from a proven fact.

 2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this
vaccine isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the
vaccine”.    Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical
treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level of side
effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible
side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the
potential of serious side effects and drug interaction
issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you
have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly
small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems
like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of
getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the
risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that
people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to
determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.   
Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly shame people
into using experimental drugs.
 3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full
understanding of drug interactions with other medicines folks
need to take.   We likely understand the very common
medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40
and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very
fair to hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully
understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of
the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good
chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data
like that is certainly not available yet.
 4. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that
have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?   

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

This is not like choosing to not wear a seatbelt.  This is like choosing to 
drive without brakes.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 2:11 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
> stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna 
> sheet I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.
>  
> Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK 
> to say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so 
> unreasonable.  We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that 
> those on the no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   
> We still check each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA 
> approval process to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies 
> “if you are pretty sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you 
> through the approval process”   We don’t do that for good reason.
>  
> I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
> situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of 
> the situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of 
> those that don’t agree with their decision.  
>  
> There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
> shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved? 
>  
> Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
> have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
> vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable 
> with an experimental vaccine.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
> 
> On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
> have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 
>  
> Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA approved 
> medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated 
> several facts.  Among them are:
> This is not FDA approved.  
> It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, but 
> around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
> tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for FDA 
> approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or 
> not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the 
> airport expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL 
> if they know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.  
> 
>  
> This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we likely 
> all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help 
> prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
> 99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split hairs 
> and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
> prevents them from dying.
> 
>  
> The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t safe 
> since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. 
> I've never heard such an argument.  
> 
>   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you 
> take has some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have 
> such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The 
> FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious 
> side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks 
> are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly 
> small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an 
> intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or 
> dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   
> It used to be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to 
> determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no 
> longer do that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.
> 
> 
> Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
> interactions with other medicines folks need to take.  
> It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.
> 
> 
> We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We 
> have FDA approval processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 
> 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold 
> off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might 
> lessen the effectiveness of 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Mike Hammett]

Another reason why vaccinated people would "selfishly" care about the 
unvaccinated is that the unvaccinated people are likely where the variants are 
coming from. Eventually, a variant will come out that isn't covered by the 
vaccine. At that point, all of the vaccinated people are at risk again. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck Macenski"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 3:00:39 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political 



Q: Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
vaccinated? 



A: A few reasons: 


* We are tired of wearing masks 
* We don't want to get sick (nothing is 100%) 
* We want open ICU beds in case we need them 


If you find someone who has had a conversation with their physician and it was 
recommended that they not getting the vaccine, sobeit. I don't think that 
happens very often. 





On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 2:44 PM Chuck McCown via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 



One question: Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free? 


Sent from my iPhone 



On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron < david.coud...@advantenon.com > 
wrote: 








Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 


1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine. I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts. Among them are: 


1. This is not FDA approved. 
2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact. 
2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”. Vaccines are a 
risk/reward type of medical treatment. Every medicine you take has some level 
of side effect. The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side 
effects, that they are considered completely safe. The FDA approval process 
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug 
interaction issues. If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to 
take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you 
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I 
am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease 
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”. It used to be that people 
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of 
disease and use of a drug. Apparently we no longer do that. We publicly shame 
people into using experimental drugs. 
3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take. We likely understand the 
very common medicines, but, certainly not all. We have FDA approval processes 
for good reason. If for example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure 
control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental drug 
until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the effectiveness of 
the seizure control medication. An incredibly low risk of serious illness or 
death from the virus could turn into a good chance of serious injury from 
seizure. As far as I know data like that is certainly not available yet. 
4. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug? Does it make them feel 
smarter? We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and that is 
with FDA approved medicine. But now all of a sudden it is OK to ridicule folks 
that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental drug for which 
the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious illness or 
death? And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the facts at hand, 
or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of this particular 
vaccine. Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place and a full 
understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the vaccine the 
conversation might look completely different. Right now, I believe some very 
intelligent people are looking at the risk/reward and saying “not now, but 
probably some day as this will become the new yearly flu vaccine”. Until then, 
my risk of virus related illness doesn’t warrant a decision to take the 
vaccine. 
5. Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
vaccinated? For those of us that are vaccinated, we are safe right? That was 
the point of taking the vaccine. 
6. Most of the science that seems most accurate right now points to this 
being with us 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jan-GAMs]

Ditto Adam

On 7/23/21 12:55 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:


I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:


Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that 
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the
paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long 
time, but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they 
are pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody 
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's 
going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't 
routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane.  
Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the 
drug test.  Same idea.


1.


 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
While we likely all agree that there is a very good
likelihood that this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is
far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can 
split hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming 
infected, but it clearly prevents them from dying.


1.


 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.


I've never heard such an argument.


 1.   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every
medicine you take has some level of side effect.   The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that
they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side
effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old
and folks are saying you have to take this experimental drug to
prevent this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously
ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not
sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to
be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to
determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.   
Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly shame people into
using experimental drugs.




 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding
of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.


It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.


 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly
not all.   We have FDA approval processes for good reason. If for
example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control
medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly
low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn
into a good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I
know data like that is certainly not available yet.




 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that
have decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?

I don't know the answer to that.  I'm not comfortable with that 
behavior either.  It goes both ways though.  Plenty of memes out there 
accusing people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

I know, we can all make our own decisions.   However, I don’t believe I have 
stated anything that varies from the facts.   I can send you the Moderna sheet 
I received with my vaccine if you want to see that.

Your points about FDA approval are probably accurate, however, why is not OK to 
say that I want to wait for the approval?   That doesn’t seem so unreasonable.  
We don’t let folks on the plane based on the likelihood that those on the 
no-fly list probably won’t show up to get on the plane anyway.   We still check 
each and every person to make sure.  Just like we do the FDA approval process 
to make sure.   Otherwise, we could just tell drug companies “if you are pretty 
sure you’d pass anyway, we won’t bother putting you through the approval 
process”   We don’t do that for good reason.

I agree with you on the memes both ways.   Neither approach are helping the 
situation.   It should be a discussion based upon the scientific merits of the 
situation.   Unfortunately both side love to poke at the intelligence of those 
that don’t agree with their decision.

There is no way to know this for sure, but I wonder how many folks publicly 
shaming others for not taking the vaccine know that it is not FDA approved?

Likely won’t change lots of folks decisions, nor am I suggesting it should 
have.   But I don’t think that those of us that decided to go ahead with the 
vaccination get to make medical decisions for those who aren’t comfortable with 
an experimental vaccine.


From: AF  On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political


I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.
On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:
Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, but 
around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are pretty well 
tested by the manufacturer before they apply.  Anybody applying for FDA 
approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's going to go through or 
not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't routinely show up at the airport 
expecting to board a plane.  Presumably people don't try to get a CDL if they 
know they'll fail the drug test.  Same idea.


 *
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split hairs 
and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but it clearly 
prevents them from dying.


 *

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.
I've never heard such an argument.


  1.Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine 
you take has some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have 
such negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The 
FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious 
side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks 
are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly 
small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an 
intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or 
dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It 
used to be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to 
determine personal risk of disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no 
longer do that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.



  1.  Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take.
It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.



  1.  We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   
We have FDA approval processes for good reason.   If for example, you were 
under 40 and were taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to 
hold off on an experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine 
might lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An 
incredibly low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into 
a good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that 
is certainly not available yet.



  1.  Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Tyson Burris]

2 negative tests
1 positive antibody test
O negative blood type
No vaccine

Have a good weekend

Tyson Burris, President
Internet Communications Inc.
739 Commerce Dr.
Franklin, IN 46131

Office # 317-738-0320
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540
Online: www.surfici.net

[ICI]
What can ICI do for you?

Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP Cameras - 
Fiber - Towers - Infrastructure.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the
addressee shown. It contains information that is
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly
prohibited.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck Macenski
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 4:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

Q: Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
vaccinated?

A: A few reasons:

  *   We are tired of wearing masks
  *   We don't want to get sick (nothing is 100%)
  *   We want open ICU beds in case we need them
If you find someone who has had a conversation with their physician and it was 
recommended that they not getting the vaccine, sobeit. I don't think that 
happens very often.


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 2:44 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:
One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron 
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level 
of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side 
effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process 
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug 
interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to 
take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you 
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I 
am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease 
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people 
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of 
disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly 
shame people into using experimental drugs.
  2.  Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were taking 
seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the 
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of 
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of 
serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is certainly not 
available yet.
  3.  Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make them 
feel smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and 
that is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to 
ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental 
drug for which the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious 
illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the 
facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of 
this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place 
and a full understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the vaccine 
the conversation might look completely different.   Right now, I believe some 
very intelligent people are looking at the risk/reward and saying “not now, but 
probably some day as this will become the new yearly flu vaccine”.   Until 
then, my risk of virus related illness doesn’t warrant a decision to take the 
vaccine.
  4.  Why are 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

She was imprisoned multiple times.  She lost her liberty, certainly much more 
of a heavy hand than being required to get vaccinated.  The government has a 
duty of care as part of being the soverign.  They must act to protect the 
public.  My grandfather was a cop whose duty included forcibly removing 
contagious people to that “pest house” for quarantine.  I think a vaccine 
requirement is what the government should do to protect the greatest portion of 
the population.  Anyone here been in the military and take a pass on the shots?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:59 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s situation.   I 
> understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have an idea of what that 
> story is about.   My basic understanding was that an individual who knew they 
> were sick was intentionally infecting others.   Certainly a despicable act if 
> that was the case.   To better put that in the context of today’s situation I 
> would want to know these things:
> Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?  
> What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I suspect typhoid 
> was significantly higher, but don’t have any data to back that up.
> I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting people is a 
> pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid college intentional 
> infection parties, we don’t really have people intentionally trying to infect 
> others. 
>  
> If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu 
> vaccine?   It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in high 
> risk health or age groups.   But it has never been required.   We don’t even 
> require vaccine for measles, shingles, and a myriad of other annoying and/or 
> dangerous diseases.   And these have FDA approved vaccines.  
>  
> However, I would reiterate this:
> If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if others 
> haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think it is 
> necessary to force people to take an experimental drug for their own good 
> will against their will?   
>  
> Regards,
> From: Chuck McCown  
> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
> To: David Coudron 
> Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
>  
> One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
> have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 
>  
> Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA approved 
> medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated 
> several facts.  Among them are:
> This is not FDA approved.  
> This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we likely 
> all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help 
> prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
> The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t safe 
> since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
> risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some 
> level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible 
> side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval 
> process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects 
> and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying 
> you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small 
> chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent 
> thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from 
> this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to 
> be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine 
> personal risk of disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do 
> that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.
> Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
> interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
> the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
> processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were 
> taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
> experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen 
> the effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk 
> of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of 
> serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is certainly 
> not available yet.  
> Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have decided 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck Macenski]

*get

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 3:00 PM Chuck Macenski  wrote:

> Q: Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t
> vaccinated?
>
> A: A few reasons:
>
>- We are tired of wearing masks
>- We don't want to get sick (nothing is 100%)
>- We want open ICU beds in case we need them
>
> If you find someone who has had a conversation with their physician and it
> was recommended that they not getting the vaccine, sobeit. I don't think
> that happens very often.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 2:44 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks
>> who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.
>>
>>
>>
>>1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
>>FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork
>>clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
>>   1. This is not FDA approved.
>>   2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.
>>   While we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that 
>> this
>>   “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
>>2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
>>isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines
>>are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has
>>some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such
>>negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The
>>FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of
>>serious side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years 
>> old
>>and folks are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent
>>this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it
>>seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting
>>seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an
>>experimental drug”.   It used to be that people relied upon a conversation
>>with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use of a
>>drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly shame people into
>>using experimental drugs.
>>3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding
>>of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely
>>understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have 
>> FDA
>>approval processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 
>> and
>>were taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off
>>on an experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might
>>lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An 
>> incredibly
>>low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good
>>chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that 
>> is
>>certainly not available yet.
>>4. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have
>>decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make 
>> them
>>feel smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, 
>> and
>>that is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to
>>ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data on an
>>experimental drug for which the majority of the population has a very low
>>chance of serious illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, 
>> they
>>never discuss the facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion 
>> about
>>the risk/reward of this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an
>>FDA approval in place and a full understanding of drug interactions and
>>effectiveness of the vaccine the conversation might look completely
>>different.   Right now, I believe some very intelligent people are looking
>>at the risk/reward and saying “not now, but probably some day as this will
>>become the new yearly flu vaccine”.   Until then, my risk of virus related
>>illness doesn’t warrant a decision to take the vaccine.
>>5. Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that
>>aren’t vaccinated?   For those of us that are vaccinated, we are safe
>>right?   That was the point of taking the vaccine.
>>6. Most of the science that seems most accurate right now points to
>>this being with us permanently like an influenza sort of virus.   It will
>>show up every year with little mutations that will require updates, or
>>boosters, or yearly covid shots.What ever you want to call them. 
>> Is
>>really so 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck Macenski]

Q: Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t
vaccinated?

A: A few reasons:

   - We are tired of wearing masks
   - We don't want to get sick (nothing is 100%)
   - We want open ICU beds in case we need them

If you find someone who has had a conversation with their physician and it
was recommended that they not getting the vaccine, sobeit. I don't think
that happens very often.


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 2:44 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks
> who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.
>
>
>
>1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
>FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork
>clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
>   1. This is not FDA approved.
>   2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While
>   we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this
>   “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
>2. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
>isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines
>are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has
>some level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such
>negligible side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The
>FDA approval process exists to ensure we understand the potential of
>serious side effects and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old
>and folks are saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent
>this incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it
>seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting
>seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the risk of using an
>experimental drug”.   It used to be that people relied upon a conversation
>with their doctor to determine personal risk of disease and use of a
>drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly shame people into
>using experimental drugs.
>3. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of
>drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely
>understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA
>approval processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and
>were taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off
>on an experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might
>lessen the effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly
>low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good
>chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is
>certainly not available yet.
>4. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have
>decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make them
>feel smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and
>that is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to
>ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data on an
>experimental drug for which the majority of the population has a very low
>chance of serious illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they
>never discuss the facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about
>the risk/reward of this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an
>FDA approval in place and a full understanding of drug interactions and
>effectiveness of the vaccine the conversation might look completely
>different.   Right now, I believe some very intelligent people are looking
>at the risk/reward and saying “not now, but probably some day as this will
>become the new yearly flu vaccine”.   Until then, my risk of virus related
>illness doesn’t warrant a decision to take the vaccine.
>5. Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that
>aren’t vaccinated?   For those of us that are vaccinated, we are safe
>right?   That was the point of taking the vaccine.
>6. Most of the science that seems most accurate right now points to
>this being with us permanently like an influenza sort of virus.   It will
>show up every year with little mutations that will require updates, or
>boosters, or yearly covid shots.What ever you want to call them. Is
>really so stupid to wait until this is FDA approved before participating?
>If we have to do this without FDA approval, why does that process even
>exist?
>
>
>
> I have always appreciated this list because 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

Unfortunately I don’t know the particulars of typhoid Mary’s situation.   I 
understand a bit of the folk lore, but don’t only have an idea of what that 
story is about.   My basic understanding was that an individual who knew they 
were sick was intentionally infecting others.   Certainly a despicable act if 
that was the case.   To better put that in the context of today’s situation I 
would want to know these things:

  1.  Was there  typhoid vaccine that was generally available?
  2.  What is the mortality rate of typhoid fever versus covid?   I suspect 
typhoid was significantly higher, but don’t have any data to back that up.
  3.  I believe there is case law to suggest intentionally infecting people is 
a pretty serious crime and after the initial stupid college intentional 
infection parties, we don’t really have people intentionally trying to infect 
others.

If we extend that argument to other diseases, will we now require flu vaccine?  
 It has always been a “good idea”, especially for those in high risk health or 
age groups.   But it has never been required.   We don’t even require vaccine 
for measles, shingles, and a myriad of other annoying and/or dangerous 
diseases.   And these have FDA approved vaccines.

However, I would reiterate this:
If the vaccine works, and I have been vaccinated, why do I care if others 
haven’t?   Am I worried the vaccine doesn’t work?   Do I think it is necessary 
to force people to take an experimental drug for their own good will against 
their will?

Regards,
From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 2:43 PM
To: David Coudron 
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?
Sent from my iPhone


On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron 
mailto:david.coud...@advantenon.com>> wrote:

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:

 *   This is not FDA approved.
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.

  1.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level 
of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side 
effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process 
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug 
interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to 
take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you 
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I 
am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease 
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people 
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of 
disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly 
shame people into using experimental drugs.
  2.  Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were taking 
seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the 
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of 
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of 
serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is certainly not 
available yet.
  3.  Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make them 
feel smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and 
that is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to 
ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental 
drug for which the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious 
illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the 
facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of 
this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place 
and a full understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the vaccine 
the 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Adam Moffett]

I'm not calling anybody stupid, but I don't agree with most of your list.

On 7/23/2021 3:37 PM, David Coudron wrote:


Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that 
folks who have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


 1. Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an
FDA approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the
paperwork clearly stated several facts.  Among them are:
 1. This is not FDA approved.

It has an emergency use authorization.  FDA approval takes a long time, 
but around 90% of the submissions end up approved because they are 
pretty well tested by the manufacturer before they apply. Anybody 
applying for FDA approval already has a pretty good idea whether it's 
going to go through or not.  Presumably people on a no-fly list don't 
routinely show up at the airport expecting to board a plane.  Presumably 
people don't try to get a CDL if they know they'll fail the drug test.  
Same idea.


1.


 2. This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus. While
we likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that
this “vaccine” will help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.

99% of people dying of Covid right now are un-vaccinated.  We can split 
hairs and say maybe it didn't prevent them from becoming infected, but 
it clearly prevents them from dying.


1.


 1. The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine
isn’t safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.


I've never heard such an argument.


 1.   Vaccines are a risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every
medicine you take has some level of side effect.   The vast
majority of medicines have such negligible side effects, that they
are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process exists
to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and
drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are
saying you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this
incredibly small chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it
seems like an intelligent thing to say “I am not sure the risk of
getting seriously ill or dying from this disease outweighs the
risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal
risk of disease and use of a drug.    Apparently we no longer do
that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.




 1. Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding
of drug interactions with other medicines folks need to take.


It isn't some weird new chemical we just invented this year.


 1. We likely understand the very common medicines, but, certainly not
all.   We have FDA approval processes for good reason.   If for
example, you were under 40 and were taking seizure control
medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an experimental
drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly
low risk of serious illness or death from the virus could turn
into a good chance of serious injury from seizure.   As far as I
know data like that is certainly not available yet.




 1. Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?

I don't know the answer to that.  I'm not comfortable with that behavior 
either.  It goes both ways though.  Plenty of memes out there accusing 
people of being dumb sheep for taking the vaccine.



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

One question:  Should Typhoid Mary have been allowed to just roam free?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 1:37 PM, David Coudron  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
> have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart. 
>  
> Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA approved 
> medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly stated 
> several facts.  Among them are:
> This is not FDA approved.  
> This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we likely 
> all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will help 
> prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
> The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t safe 
> since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
> risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some 
> level of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible 
> side effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval 
> process exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects 
> and drug interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying 
> you have to take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small 
> chance of you becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent 
> thing to say “I am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from 
> this disease outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to 
> be that people relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine 
> personal risk of disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do 
> that.   We publicly shame people into using experimental drugs.
> Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
> interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
> the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
> processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were 
> taking seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
> experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen 
> the effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk 
> of serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of 
> serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is certainly 
> not available yet.  
> Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have decided 
> not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make them feel 
> smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and that 
> is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to ridicule 
> folks that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental drug 
> for which the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious 
> illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the 
> facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of 
> this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place 
> and a full understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the 
> vaccine the conversation might look completely different.   Right now, I 
> believe some very intelligent people are looking at the risk/reward and 
> saying “not now, but probably some day as this will become the new yearly flu 
> vaccine”.   Until then, my risk of virus related illness doesn’t warrant a 
> decision to take the vaccine.
> Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
> vaccinated?   For those of us that are vaccinated, we are safe right?   That 
> was the point of taking the vaccine.  
> Most of the science that seems most accurate right now points to this being 
> with us permanently like an influenza sort of virus.   It will show up every 
> year with little mutations that will require updates, or boosters, or yearly 
> covid shots.What ever you want to call them. Is really so stupid to 
> wait until this is FDA approved before participating?   If we have to do this 
> without FDA approval, why does that process even exist? 
>  
> I have always appreciated this list because it is usually very fact focused, 
> and very good at exploring solutions to problems.   While some lists are very 
> superficial and suffer from pat answers to technical problems, folks in this 
> list have always tended dig deep and find tangible information related to the 
> email topic.   I get that it is very easy to joke about the intelligence of 
> those who have made a decision we don’t agree with, but I don’t believe this 
> topic is nearly that cut and dried.  
>  
> As Chuck mentioned, unfortunately this is a somewhat political topic.   I 
> don’t understand why, other than the fact that some react more harshly to 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[David Coudron]

Here is what I find particularly challenging about suggesting that folks who 
have chosen not to take the vaccine are not that smart.


  1.  Folks who do that never talk about that fact that this is not an FDA 
approved medicine/vaccine.   I took the Moderna vaccine, the paperwork clearly 
stated several facts.  Among them are:
 *   This is not FDA approved.
 *   This “vaccine” has not been proven to prevent the virus.   While we 
likely all agree that there is a very good likelihood that this “vaccine” will 
help prevent it, it is far from a proven fact.
  2.  The argument is, “there should be no reason to think this vaccine isn’t 
safe since people aren’t dying from taking the vaccine”.Vaccines are a 
risk/reward type of medical treatment.   Every medicine you take has some level 
of side effect.   The vast majority of medicines have such negligible side 
effects, that they are considered completely safe.   The FDA approval process 
exists to ensure we understand the potential of serious side effects and drug 
interaction issues.   If you are 30 years old and folks are saying you have to 
take this experimental drug to prevent this incredibly small chance of you 
becoming seriously ill or dying, it seems like an intelligent thing to say “I 
am not sure the risk of getting seriously ill or dying from this disease 
outweighs the risk of using an experimental drug”.   It used to be that people 
relied upon a conversation with their doctor to determine personal risk of 
disease and use of a drug.Apparently we no longer do that.   We publicly 
shame people into using experimental drugs.
  3.  Since it is not FDA approved, we don’t have a full understanding of drug 
interactions with other medicines folks need to take.   We likely understand 
the very common medicines, but, certainly not all.   We have FDA approval 
processes for good reason.   If for example, you were under 40 and were taking 
seizure control medication, it would be very fair to hold off on an 
experimental drug until it is fully understood if the vaccine might lessen the 
effectiveness of the seizure control medication.   An incredibly low risk of 
serious illness or death from the virus could turn into a good chance of 
serious injury from seizure.   As far as I know data like that is certainly not 
available yet.
  4.  Why do vaccinated people feel the need to belittle those that have 
decided not to get vaccinated by an experimental drug?Does it make them 
feel smarter?   We have people not getting flu vaccinations every year, and 
that is with FDA approved medicine.   But now all of a sudden it is OK to 
ridicule folks that are making a decision based limited data on an experimental 
drug for which the majority of the population has a very low chance of serious 
illness or death?   And when they do ridicule folks, they never discuss the 
facts at hand, or want to have a serious discussion about the risk/reward of 
this particular vaccine.   Two years from now, with an FDA approval in place 
and a full understanding of drug interactions and effectiveness of the vaccine 
the conversation might look completely different.   Right now, I believe some 
very intelligent people are looking at the risk/reward and saying “not now, but 
probably some day as this will become the new yearly flu vaccine”.   Until 
then, my risk of virus related illness doesn’t warrant a decision to take the 
vaccine.
  5.  Why are people that are vaccinated so obsessed with people that aren’t 
vaccinated?   For those of us that are vaccinated, we are safe right?   That 
was the point of taking the vaccine.
  6.  Most of the science that seems most accurate right now points to this 
being with us permanently like an influenza sort of virus.   It will show up 
every year with little mutations that will require updates, or boosters, or 
yearly covid shots.What ever you want to call them. Is really so stupid 
to wait until this is FDA approved before participating?   If we have to do 
this without FDA approval, why does that process even exist?

I have always appreciated this list because it is usually very fact focused, 
and very good at exploring solutions to problems.   While some lists are very 
superficial and suffer from pat answers to technical problems, folks in this 
list have always tended dig deep and find tangible information related to the 
email topic.   I get that it is very easy to joke about the intelligence of 
those who have made a decision we don’t agree with, but I don’t believe this 
topic is nearly that cut and dried.

As Chuck mentioned, unfortunately this is a somewhat political topic.   I don’t 
understand why, other than the fact that some react more harshly to being told 
they have to do something.   This should be a scientific discussion.   If 
definitely shouldn’t be about public shame.   We don’t know the medical 
situation of those that chose not to participate in an experimental medical 
treatment.

Regards,

Re: [AFMUG] Billing for underground damage

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I bill for time and materials as if I was making the repair for someone else.  
That means marked up materials and profit on top of loaded payroll expense.  
You can bill for whatever you want but if you have to litigate it best to just 
try to get yourself whole.  If you have proof it was painted prior to damage it 
will help a bunch.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 23, 2021, at 12:52 PM, Nate Burke  wrote:
> 
> Not sure if this varies state to state, how do you bill for damage to 
> underground facilities?  A large contractor hit one of our marked underground 
> lines twice in 4 days while putting in a new conduit.
> 
> Do you send them a simple invoice with a dollar amount, a fully itemized 
> time/materials bill?  We haven't had a hit of this scale before, so I'm not 
> sure what they would be expecting.  I'm guessing they deal with this on a 
> daily basis, probably have a whole team to deal with claims.  Just not sure 
> what documentation/invoices we need to send them.
> 
> Can you bill for the time the customers were down, or purely for the repair?
> 
> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Billing for underground damage

[Nate Burke]

Not sure if this varies state to state, how do you bill for damage to 
underground facilities?  A large contractor hit one of our marked 
underground lines twice in 4 days while putting in a new conduit.


Do you send them a simple invoice with a dollar amount, a fully itemized 
time/materials bill?  We haven't had a hit of this scale before, so I'm 
not sure what they would be expecting.  I'm guessing they deal with this 
on a daily basis, probably have a whole team to deal with claims.  Just 
not sure what documentation/invoices we need to send them.


Can you bill for the time the customers were down, or purely for the 
repair?


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

They could sponsor concerts and barbecues that only admit unvaccinated...
How can I get that fake news to be picked up by the junk news feeds?


From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:55 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start saying 
"take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer that you 
don't so there are less of you to vote next go around". 


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson  
wrote:

  That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when 
it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people have 
convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid vaccines, are 
somehow a liberal thing.  

  On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.  
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



-- 

- Forrest



-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] DFS in DC

[Mike Hammett]

TDWR is also likely the least of one's concerns in DFS in terms of likelyhood 
to be impacted by. 


Military use is the primary use of the band. 
There are also dozens if not hundreds of private weather radars across the 
country using the 5 GHz band. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Zach Underwood"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 12:51:38 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] DFS in DC 


After getting more than a few hits at our DC MDU sites I looked up the TDWR and 
it looks like there are 4 TDWR within range of DC. I have since disabled DFS 
channels at our DC sites but wow. 


Andrews Air Force Base (ADW), MD 
Baltimore/Wash (BWI), MD 
Dulles (IAD), VA 

Washington National (DCA), MD 
-- 






Zach Underwood (RHCE,RHCSA,RHCT, UACA ) 


My website 

advance-networking.com 

-- 
AF mailing list 
AF@af.afmug.com 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I've wondered if it might be a good thing for the liberal side to start
saying "take the vaccine or not, we don't care - in fact we would prefer
that you don't so there are less of you to vote next go around".


On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:26 AM Carl Peterson 
wrote:

> That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb
> when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of
> people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
> vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
>
> On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
>> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
- Forrest
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] DFS in DC

[Zach Underwood]

After getting more than a few hits at our DC MDU sites I looked up the TDWR
and it looks like there are 4 TDWR within range of DC. I have since
disabled DFS channels at our DC sites but wow.

 Andrews Air Force Base (ADW), MD
 Baltimore/Wash (BWI), MD
 Dulles (IAD), VA
 Washington National (DCA), MD
-- 
Zach Underwood (RHCE,RHCSA,RHCT,UACA)
My website 
advance-networking.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Jay Weekley]

I have a relative that gave Covid to two of her children, mom and me.  
Mom was in the hospital for four days but made a full recovery.  The 
relative is reluctant to get the vaccine because she had varicose vein 
surgery years ago and fears blood clots. I've reminded the relative that 
she can catch it again and give it to other people again.  Hopefully the 
come around.


Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I have a sister that is 79, never a mask, never a vaccine.  Covid is a 
hoax.  So are electric cars.  Her own kid is deaf because she was 
exposed to German Measles when pregnant.  One would think she would be 
all in on vaccinations.
Among my younger employees it is difficult.  One of them was going on 
about have mrna reprograms your body and can do all kinds of things to 
you.  I asked him if he had MMR or any of the childhood vaccines.  He 
admitted he did.  Then are they not taking over the body.  No but they 
are not machines like mrna...
I asked him if he knew how a vaccine worked, he said it is a chemical 
that floats in your blood and kills bad bugs.

So I used the following analogy on him.
Virus’ are like time bombs.  clock, batteries, wires (red and blue) 
explosives.  And they can make copies of them selves.
Your body has a bomb squad.  (Immune system) They see a virus they 
study it and learn how to defuse it.  As long as they can defuse the 
bombs quicker than they can replicate they can wipe it out.  Then they 
remember the bomb design for next time.
Old style vaccines, that are brewed and slowly grown in chicken eggs, 
put either a bomb with the actual explosives removed or a very weak 
bomb into your system for your immune system to study.  Then if you 
get attacked with the real thing your body can take car of the problem.
mrna vaccines are similar but they are 3D printed replicas from plans 
that can be emailed.  The body sees what it believes to be a 
functional bomb and learns how to defuse it.  Nice thing is we can 
print up a new one quickly.
Now, those that know much more than me about biology, microbiology, 
chemistry, genetics, virus’ etc will probably pick holes in my silly 
explanation but the kid actually acted like he learned something.  He 
is not spouting anti vax stuff at work any more.  Have not asked him 
if he got the vax but I hope.

*From:* Carl Peterson
*Sent:* Friday, July 23, 2021 11:24 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political
That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb 
when it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a 
subset**of people have convinced themselves that vaccines, and 
specifically the covid vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.
On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ
average will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
-- 
AF mailing list

AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




--
*Jay Weekley*
*Cyber Broadband
*

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I have a sister that is 79, never a mask, never a vaccine.  Covid is a hoax.  
So are electric cars.  Her own kid is deaf because she was exposed to German 
Measles when pregnant.  One would think she would be all in on vaccinations.  

Among my younger employees it is difficult.  One of them was going on about 
have mrna reprograms your body and can do all kinds of things to you.  I asked 
him if he had MMR or any of the childhood vaccines.  He admitted he did.  Then 
are they not taking over the body.  No but they are not machines like mrna...

I asked him if he knew how a vaccine worked, he said it is a chemical that 
floats in your blood and kills bad bugs.  

So I used the following analogy on him.
Virus’ are like time bombs.  clock, batteries, wires (red and blue) explosives. 
 And they can make copies of them selves.

Your body has a bomb squad.  (Immune system) They see a virus they study it and 
learn how to defuse it.  As long as they can defuse the bombs quicker than they 
can replicate they can wipe it out.  Then they remember the bomb design for 
next time.

Old style vaccines, that are brewed and slowly grown in chicken eggs, put 
either a bomb with the actual explosives removed or a very weak bomb into your 
system for your immune system to study.  Then if you get attacked with the real 
thing your body can take car of the problem.  

mrna vaccines are similar but they are 3D printed replicas from plans that can 
be emailed.  The body sees what it believes to be a functional bomb and learns 
how to defuse it.  Nice thing is we can print up a new one quickly.

Now, those that know much more than me about biology, microbiology, chemistry, 
genetics, virus’ etc will probably pick holes in my silly explanation but the 
kid actually acted like he learned something.  He is not spouting anti vax 
stuff at work any more.  Have not asked him if he got the vax but I hope.  



From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2021 11:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when it 
comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people have 
convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid vaccines, are 
somehow a liberal thing.  

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.  
  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com







-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Carl Peterson]

That assumes IQ==Comon sense.  Lots of smart people can be really dumb when
it comes to sports, religon, and politics.   It seems a subset of people
have convinced themselves that vaccines, and specifically the covid
vaccines, are somehow a liberal thing.

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 11:28 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will
> increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

The largest, so far, Darwin Award is about to pop on the website...

On 7/23/21 10:05 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


Real life Darwin heory.


bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average 
will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.






-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Robert]

Anyone on that side of the fence at this point is drowning in the gene 
pool...


On 7/23/21 10:06 AM, Bill Prince wrote:


I have relatives who are telling me they don't think the mRNA vaccines 
have been tested enough. How many hundreds of millions does that take?



bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average 
will increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.






-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

  
  
I have relatives who are telling me they don't think the mRNA
  vaccines have been tested enough. How many hundreds of millions
  does that take?


bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via
  AF wrote:


  
  

  If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global
IQ average will increase, right?  Always good when your team
wins.  

  
  
  

  


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Bill Prince]

  
  
Real life Darwin heory.


bp

On 7/23/2021 9:27 AM, Chuck McCown via
  AF wrote:


  
  

  If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global
IQ average will increase, right?  Always good when your team
wins.  

  
  
  

  


-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] OT somewhat political

[Chuck McCown via AF]

If the covid variants kill only unvaccinated, then global IQ average will 
increase, right?  Always good when your team wins.  -- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com