Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Hi folks. 1. BBC issue: the effect is known as chip monk2 effect. We have been discussing it before. Those affected radio stations are not working with the direct output routing setup of TT3.0. The other output mode, which is currently avoided, is called plugin mode. That one degrades the sound. Though in plugin mode your radio stations would be working. You can't have em both. I'm pretty sure Logitech could fix it on the driver side. I don't expect any support from their side though. However, I'll do something about it. You'll be able to switch between plugin and hw mode. I'll supply it with the next drop. This function will also be needed for USB DAC support. 2. Priority scheme To me it seems that the longer TT30 is out, people prefer my setup. Anyhow. I'll introduce some more flexibility to the script. In general I'm not sure if it is just the SPDIF prio that would have to be touched. Usually you have to tune the whole instrument not just one string. I'm thinking of introducing different priority profiles. This you could run e.g tt -z N with N=0/1/2 Please let me know if there's anything else you think that should be improved. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Thx for your feedback so far. Just to say it again. It's good to get that feedback, which obviously covers the full dynamic range. ;) It's interesting to see that some people feel to get used to it first. @magiccarpetride you're a talented pretty enjoyable writer. Thx a lot. ;) For those who do have issues with slightly aggressive sound. Make sure that you got your power supplies, network and server setup under control. You might have realized that you find all that in a different blog article now. You shouldn't miss that one. I recall a post quite some time back of somebody having similar issues. He than followed my networking advise by introducing a hub, cable and PS and got rid of aggressive highs and best sound ever. Next steps: 1. I'll check out the spdif priority thing today. If it turns out to work for me too, you'll find it tomorrow at 1500 zulu in the final 3.0 drop. 2. I don't have any problems to refer to the TT2.0 link. But don't expect me to get the old description back. 3. John. I was looking in the udev thing a long time ago. I could have done it too. For now I did it my way. I do not see much of a difference. I'll address the subject as soon as I start working on the USB interface subject. Everything is almost done - you'll find fragments of it inside TT3.0. I left them in. Much more interesting would be to get the USB thing under control. Logitech doesn't seem to be willing to support us at least a little on that one. 4. I might think of introducing more tunables in the next major release. I won't change anything for now. Experienced users know where to turn the knobs anyhow. The whole thing gets obviously more an more complex, it's just impossible test and retest all hundred million parameter combinations. I appreciate your feedback. If you guys do some more testing tonight, please let us (me) know how how things are going. Enjoy -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
firedog;667353 Wrote: Klaus- I'm using the full update except: screen is on. Digital out only. I actually use the SBT screen as touch screen controller. Since I installed 3.0, I've noticed the screen is a little jumpy to the touch - over responds to slight touches sometimes. I saw one other user over at the Audiocircle forum who mentioned the same thing. Do you have any idea what this might be or what parameter might need to be adjusted to counteract for this? No. I'm not using the screen and don't recommend to use it. ;) Perhaps this has something to do with the priority settings. The timing for all other processes will certainly get slightly out of balance. Please define sometimes? If you restore with tt -r does everything gets back to normal ? Thx -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
humanmedia;667380 Wrote: switching on the new vollock (not on by default) definitely makes it sound more relaxed and neutral. Another one to try. +1 ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
It's too dangerous to have it on by default. Some people might use the SW volume control only with direct amp access. In this case you'd blow your speakers and potentially ears. It just takes 30s to turn it on. If you have a vollock ssh macro defined it's a no-brainer. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
First impression of SPDIF @ prio 51 doesn't convince us over here. For now I leave TT3.0 as it is. No reason to get nervous about priorities. Of course I'll follow up further constructive ideas. Higher buffers won't work out either. The low-end seems to lose precision. 4000us will be the next TT3.0 build default value. I think many of you can gain a lot more by looking a bit closer on the HW and network side. Enjoy. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
I'll fork into a new thread from here, if that is OK with you. Of course a lot of interesting stuff discussed over here will get lost over time. Anyhow. Sometimes it's good to start over. One hint. Instead of rolling back certain features you should try to find certain other bottlenecks. I did experience that you need to tune your system over once you get a step further up the ladder (which has to be proven for every single environment first obviously) I and my little testgroup for example never experience XRUNS on 3400us buffer. Would be interesting to figure out why this differs from box to box over here. If buffers are over the edge things might get sharper. If you do your testing report your experiences make sure that you clearly communicate your toolbox settings. If you e.g. run screen-on and wlan without tt -k results will be less relevant in absolute terms. I'll have a look at the SPDIF process. P:S: I had a little outage on the blog an hour ago. I had to restore a backup. Weired things might happened during that timeframe. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Just done the fork. Thx to all your valuable contributions over here. To be continued over there: 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0' (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Hi folks. I think it's time to close the 2.0 chapter and start over with TT3.0 over here. Looking forward to your constructive feedback and discussions. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Takeovers from the TT.20 thread. Human Media commented: Assuming you have tt 3.0 installed, try changing the priority of the spdif process to 51. chrt -f -p 51 367 I left it at 40 intentionally (quite some time back though). I also played with the value. You'll see that I got the interrupt listed in the script. I'll check it out. If it turns out to make a positive difference now I'll update the tool... Thx. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Another finetuning subject is the buffer setting. The closer we get to the system limits the more difficult it gets to tune the instrument. Some people won't get below 4000us without ending up into XRUNS. Others run at 3400us without problems. Which is strange. Over here I know of several systems, which also run stable at 3400us. Let's keep an eye on that one. We might find a solution. Easiest is to tune your buffer size that it turns out best to you. That buffer situation is known since quite some time of course. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
Mr Bellow;667193 Wrote: ...The sound is more defined and detailed... That's what I like to see. Sometimes it's shocking. I know. ;) More natural and and especially soft sounding is how many many systems out there sound. The key challenge is to have a smooth silky sound with all the details in place. Obviously first you need to know that there are hidden details. The better the systems the more awful awful recordings sound. I can tell you that. I usually have two three different reference tracks to figure out what direction I'm going. The better the source the more you'll see the weaknesses of your downstream engine. Bottom line I'm not saying that everything is 100% correct with the toolbox default settings. I can change these in two minutes. Some of you can do it by yourself. Let see how things are developing. I also got quite some very positive, though also pretty quick feedbacks from other sources. I'm sure we'll find some kind of common sense about what's going on there. There's always an option to go back. Let's collect some more feedback first. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0
john4456;667207 Wrote: Klaus, I use a HRT dac via usb, with TT2 installed (works great). Any reason why this shouldn't work just as well with TT3, assuming I change the buffer size etc ? Thanks NO - it should work. Maybe on the analog (port 1) though. USB might get assigned to port 1 by default. I'm still waiting for an USB interface to arrive. It should have been here almost a week ago. I'll then introduce USB DAC support (for those DACs which are working) as soon as I have tested it. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=91322 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Have fun tonight. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
rgro;666920 Wrote: Hi Soundcheck... I implemented both the LMS 7.7.0 upgrades, re-did dynaudiorules' alsa threading/interupt mods, and put in TT 3.0 all this morning. Everything seems to be working fine, though I will see if any bugs bite over the next few days. One question I had, though: why do you recommend implementing the daemon-killer? Thanks again for all your work... I'm not sure if these dynaudio-rules mods are still required. I'm running my own optimizations in that area. They might even interfere. For now I wouldn't use those different approaches in parallel. You end up not knowing of what is doing what. At a later stage you might merge/apply them. If dynaudio-rules approach turns out to be the better choice, I'll have a look at them. As with all other mods, you should try the daemon-killer. Then you decide if you want to run it or not. I do think it's well worth trying. ;) Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
yep. just a reboot. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi folks. TT 3.0 - the tool - is ready for release now. I got all the little issues fixed. I now need to do the documentation stuff. It'll take me a day or two. Over the weekend I re-introduced * the 100% volume lock mod, which some of you might have tried earlier (TT beta-blog). I thought the mod wouldn't be necassary anymore after 7.6.1. I'll let you decide on that one. On the list of earlier mentioned improvements you need to add * exclusive audio device routing That'll be it for now. Gotta run. Stay tuned. CU -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
I'm in the final phase of testing. Just relax. Just stepped over a little problem, which I need to get fixed first. If you start doing happy-testing usually some odd things happen. And that just happened to me. Then I need to prepare also the new instructions. I'm not sure if I manage to get all that fixed today. I'm running out of time. I plan to launch two packages. One for ethernet and one for WLAN. With TT30 you'll now get all mods enabled at maximum performance. Output is set to SPDIF. And screen is off. This way it'll take just one command and you're set according to my recommendation within 20 seconds. I hope with this I cover the majority of use-cases. Others who run it different can e.g. turn the screen back on later on, for those who need a screen, or change to analog out, increase the buffer, turn infrared back on asf. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
lake_eleven;664700 Wrote: Great to hear the update from Klaus. BTW, will 3.0 include the thread priority changes. Should the existing rCS file changes be rolled back?. Yep and more priority reshuffling, TCP/IP and networking adjustments, kernel parameter adjustments screen on/off without reboot daemon killer infrared off/on some more minor stuff and I got all tools integrated into one tool now. It comes with a help function. I guess you'll like it Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi guys. There are also endless discussions about jitter and other distortions at Audio Asyslum. Fact is that there is NO device at any price out which has proven to manage to decouple 100% from source induced jitter/timing variations, common-mode-noise, power variations, mains polution, clock intermodulations, reflections and maybe more. Again. Measurements do have its limitations. As well as measurements done for marketing purposes. My mods don't do anything different than you'd find it with tools like Amarra, Decibel, Pure Music on OSX, Jplay , Cplay, XXHighend on Windows. They all lower the impact of the OS and PC. All that wouldn't be needed, or better, would be useless if we'd find an audio interface which is immune against incoming distortions. The best devices today come with 100% galvanic isolation, a battery supply and multistage reclocking (incl. FPGA based buffering). And still there are not 100% immune. It's getting better. But they are not there yet. The great thing is -- most of those manufacturers meanwhile accepted the fact that they are not 100% immune ! ;) Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi folks. FYI. I'll release TT3.0 next week on the 22nd. On the 20th I'll release a Beta, just to get some feedback from the early adopters . Sorry for the delay. You can expect lots of changes an improvements. I guess many of you will like it. ;) USB DAC support is still not supported (I had it implemented though). Some of you might have followed the USB DAC thread over here. We won't get it working without running into XRUNS (buffer over-/underruns) - you call it ususally clicks, scratches asf. on most of the DACs out there. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
TT3.0 will come with quite some improvements beside its audio related improvements. For now some items on the list are 1. All single tools migrated into one tool 2. Complete installation done in 20 seconds (one command + reboot) 3. USB DAC configuration (Different from what is known today) 4. Screen on/off (inspired by a hint of another inmate) 5. Help function I'm pretty sure you'll like it. ;) Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
PasTim;649140 Wrote: I have found that by turning off the software update option (Don't check for software updates) on the server, this also stops requests to update the firmware on the Touch. Stability restored :) Yep. Though you can't prevent mysqueezebox.com from kicking in. Logitech !!! Are you listening? We would like to get an selectable option to avoid updates through mysqueezebox.com. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Beside numerous other things process repriorization is part of TT3.0. I'm running such a setup since almost a year on my Touch. ;) There's no need to integrate anything else as far as I can see. Some words about the OS tuning history - the way I see it: I introduced those priorization tweaks around 2007 on my Linux platform. You'll find references at beforementioned DIY-Audio thread. At that time I also had a Wiki up describing what to do. At that time only the XXHighend player (I know the designer - we've been challenging our setups in A/B testing sessions) was running a similar approach on a Windows Vista platform. Cplay/CMP came up at a later stage trying to port all those tweaks to an XP platform. All those approaches have the same thing in common: 1. Get the system load down (HW and SW) 2. get highest priority on your audio process 3. Look for the straightest way to the device I think we all managed quite well. By entering the network streaming world another problem popped up. The actual streaming/networking. This prevents us from pushing the limits as done on a standalone PC. We can't cut of the stream during playback. I mentioned that before. Don't get foolded by remarks 20s-30s of data is buffered, there's no impact. Those people just ignore the fact, that the buffer gets continously refilled, causing pretty serious load ( from a processor sharing perspective). The only way to get around this is IMO to do a full-file-buffering or at least bulk downloads to avoid continous streaming. That of course requires much more RAM on the renderer. Why do I bring this up? Let's hope that Logitech comes up with a better steaming solution sooner or later. On the other hand life could be much easier. All this annyoing tweaking would not be necassary if manufacturers would build better audio interfaces. Those devices just would have to decouple from the PC/OS induced mess properly. I'm not aware of any audio interface at any price, which does it properly. Any hints are very welcome. Those manufacturers/engineers obviously won't manage to decouple their devices/DACs from PC/OS induced distortions. And I don't see any movements to be honest. And it's not just SPDIF. You'll find the same situation even on very expensive asynchronous USB DACs. Back to the Touch and its process priorization: Logitech has played around with the priorization stuff. They introduced the realtime kernel (a key factor to get your processes prioritzed with brute force). The realtime kernel is IMO the key differentiator from OSX and Windows. None of those systems can provide a similar base. Logitech further applied a pretty basic prorizatioin scheme. Yep. They've done some adjustments. They just havn't pushed the limits. ;) Bck to TT30. I'll launch TT.30 by the end of September. I do not have time to do all the required preparations beforehand. Enjoy the rest of the summer. I'll do. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Caad;645223 Wrote: Hi Soundcheck Here's attachment of the modifications i have made. Please note that Logitech will properly not hold the warranty if you dissemble and solder in the SBT. All risk is from now on your own. I can't help you out with any problems bases by these modifications. Thx Caad. Looks great. My Touch looks pretty similar to yours, since quite some time. Just a little less modified on the HW side. I put already some OsCons in. When reading about your mods I figured that I might be able to gain more with the local decoupling mods. Don't worry about loosing warranty. Everybody sticking a heated iron on the board is well aware of it I'd guess. ;) Thx again. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi Caad. 1. wav/flac I use flacs because of tagging. Though nowadays you can apply also tags to wav (dbpoweramp). That wasn't the case some time ago. If space is not an issue. You're probably right. It doesn't really matter anymore what format you're running. Though I belive that flacs+tags are better supported then wav+tags in general. When it comes to decoding. You pretty much confirm that decoding flacs on the Touch is causing nasty (in audiophile terms) side-effects. That's what I'm saying since quite some time. Streaming your .wav as PCM stream - that's what you do now - is nothing else than decoding the flacs on the server and stream them as PCMs to the Touch. Practically we're ending up with the same result. 2. Decoupling clock Great to see somebody is able to do some serious measurements. It seems than that it is really a rather poor (in audiophile terms) implementation of the clock surrounding electronics causing the trouble. I will try your mod. Would be nice if you could take a picture how you've done your decoupling mods. I just received some NPO caps for decoupling purposes - I'll try it right away as sson as I exactly know where to do it. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
kiat;644057 Wrote: Welcome back :) Waiting eagerly for your TT3.0 I said earlier I was waiting for 7.6 to be launched first before releasing TT3.0 . Now 7.6. is there. Let me quickly explain what dilemma I'm facing. I'm not really sure anymore if to launch TT3.0 in its current form. It's just too good to be true. Think of TT2.0 achieving estimated 40% of the tuning potential with all mods on. With TT3.0 the Touch IMO would be becoming a real serious transport, which has nothing to do with the stock product anymore. I do have a problem to protect the intellectual property behind all my efforts. There are people who spent 300 (hi Phil) for a Power Supply upgrade, which IMO adds less then my efforts. There's still rather big money floating around in the audiophile spheres. You bet my toolbox got a ceratin monetary value. There's obviously a high willingness to spent serious money on a little better soundquality on HW. Obviously HW upgrades still have a much higher value to people than software upgrades. I'm not implying to go commercial with all this btw.!! However. You bet -- it's bugging me. For Logitech my TT3.0 would mean a trumendous gain on their product value. (Has anybody looked at the Logitech 7.6 release note - The new audiophile features in particular!?!?!? ;) ) Why should I push that company first of all!?!? Am I supposed to do their homework!?!? And they would just count the $$$. All I'd do would be doing many of you guys a favour. That's cool. Some of my friends who are running TT3.0 already -- just call it stupid. Logitech is not even supporting our (my) sound optimzation approach at all - they wouldn't even do simple things like updateing Alsa and the USB audio drivers. Usually all soundquality tweaks - even if proven a 100 times - are considered snakeoil asf. And that's pretty much supported by the Squeezebox establishment over here. After all Logitech or any other Linux based system provider can take my stuff - as soon as it is lauchned - and put it into the next release or product. New products an companies are popping up like mushrooms. You bet quite some folks out there steal with pride and make money with this. I'm not really willing to support this. I'll wait for now that the 7.6 dust gets settled. Lots of complaints about it out there. Updates can be expected soon I'd guess. Then I'll take a decision what to do next. Enjoy the summer for now. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Teddy Pardo Touch PSU
JezA;644265 Wrote: Why not try a Linn Sneaky-DS? Not much more money, s/pdif out .. made by a hifi company .. ... with hifi company price tags No idea what you call not much more money. To me 1500 is much more money. ...and sophisicated control options a la iPeng seem to be almost non existing in Linn country. ...and this device has to prove first that it sounds better then a slightly tweaked Touch - I guess it'll have a hard time. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89017 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;644303 Wrote: Klaus, there's lots to talk about here...and I'll get round to some of it eventually... but I'm not sure you can claim or enforce any proprietary rights over modifications to Open Source and/or Logitech-owned code (as I understand it, the code running on the Touch is a combination of the two. However, I am obviously not a lawyer!) I think before you think about trying to make any money out of your mods, you should engage a very good international IP/software licensing lawyer and see what they advise. Better safe than sorry. First of all. I did say that I DO NOT intend to go commercial with this. Perhaps you missed that part of my post. I'm well aware of the legal situation and the problem protecting your own intellectual property respectively efforts. Beside that, I'd like to mention that most of my tweaks relate to the operating system. These could be used by anybody else running a Linux based (embedded) systems. The majority of those tweaks I figured out on a Linux system years back and have nothing to do with the Touch. I just had to find the right way for applying them on the Touch. My PC based setup is not sounding any worse than my Touch at todays status to be honest. A solution made of an USB DAC, small PC, a modified Linux and e.g. music player daemon will be at least as good sounding as my Touch setup. ( You could also try Cplay/CMP2 on a Windows PC.) The big advantage of the Logitech solution I consider its server and control structure. No - hold on. iPeng is not even Logitech made. That boils down to just the server framework and of course the box price tag. 250-200$ is not too bad for the Touch. That solution is pretty inflexible though. The Touch comes with tons of features which I don't even use. If you go for the right PC you got the advantage of running up2date Alsa, better and more up2date kernels asf. You could even try squeezelave. Is that one still limited to 44.1khz btw.? And the real great thing. You can use that PC for more than one purpose. You can even play videos via DLNA/UPNP/internet. That's actually in the pipe on my side. My goal -- one great sounding multimedia renderer box in the living room + (external) DAC respectively full digital amp. Of course the typical PC or Squeezebox user will have a hard time to accomplish this. Anyhow - back to TT3.0. Bottom line, to make my life easier and to make me feel better, I just hold TT3.0 back for now. Yep, it's that easy. (Though probably not the final word ;) ) Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Teddy Pardo Touch PSU
Wombat;644334 Wrote: I wondered already also. It is funny to see how some write in the original thread at diyaudio.com Soundcheck started and proclaims all his mods in the end some simply find their old CD-Transport better as the Touch with all kinds of mods. Ok, it is just some claims coming from the same kind of people but nonetheless funny! :) Yep. That's a good point. In the end those good old CDPs don't have any processors or network electronics inside causing this or that problem. They don't add bits to it. They don't run float/integer conversions asf . asf. They don't come with SW flaws. They probably got a much better power supply,clock and SPDIF interface then the Touch. The stock Touch is a and to me has always been an average product. The price/performance ratio can IMO be considered pretty fair though. It was my personal challenge trying to squeeze most out of this device, when I saw it runs on Linux. But. Man. We're talking about a 200$ product here. If somebody compares that Logitech device to big $$$ audiophile hifi-gear, and claims that one sounds slightly better I don't have any problems with that. Keep also in mind that those guys are running TT2.0 which is just (estimated) 40% of the sound potential where I am today with TT3.0. I could also hook up the EC-Designs SD-card player to the I2S bus of my amp. I know what would happen. That's why I leave that for the time being and enjoy my iPeng controlled collection over my tuned Touch. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89017 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] New Teddy Pardo Touch PSU
Dear Phil. Welcome of the club of Audiophiles - you know what this means over here - don't you. ;) It took you a while. That PS tuning effect is known and been communicated numerous times over a long period of time. Almost any solution reported over here made a quite substantial improvement over the stock supply. And the reported experiences never refered to analog only. Interesting to see that something must have driven you to go for one of the most expensive solutions in the market. I can tell you though. It doesn't have to be a Teddy Pardo supply (I do have his regulators over here for quite some time). The PS parts (DC/DC converter and regulators) inside that Touch will neutralize a certain amount of clean-up/regulation that supply is doing. Just read my aging blog. You'll find a lot more stuff you can use to open new threads over here. By the time you're finished you can bury your Touch. ;) And. From the very beginning I told you to switch off convolution. Convolution (even if done right - which is a major challenge - I'd rather say almost impossible ) IMO just filters the sound to death. Been there - done that. Of course you'll experience some nice effects when doing convolution. A nice little toy to play with - and that's IMO about it. Enjoy. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89017 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi guys. I havn't been around for a while. ( And automatic notifcation didn't work) 1. SPDIF mod: I soldered the cable end right to the motherboard and even cut off the comb connector to avoid any noise pickup / impedance mismatch from that connector board. If you apply the SPDIF mod you'd do it too, remove the SPDIF jack and glue that cable end to the board. And it is also very important to have the right setup on the receiver side. I meanwhile tested 4 different pulse-transformers. They all add their own signature. And they make a huge difference. They all were better than no pulse-transformer. 2. Clock I expected that a clock upgrade would make a difference. Especially if you introduce a new PS with it. Many of my mods do have an indirect impact on the power supply situation. It makes sense to me that the Toolbox will have lesser impact. Slaving the Touch to a master clock ( John you did it - right? ) might be the even better solution. I'm not sure though if to spent any more money and time on that machine. With my own version of the Toolbox (TT30), I don't have the feeling that there's a need to apply any more mods. 3. ttvol100 I admit I havn't done my homework - because the 7.6. code snippet I've seen looked pretty much like the ttvol100 tweak. I'll test it. And report back. I do trust Tom186, that if he says there is something - that there is something. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
FunkyMonkey;641477 Wrote: Hi folks, I managed to get my system running well via ethernet. At the moment I'm running server version 7.5.4 with no issues. Could you pls tell me if switching to version 7.6 brings any improvement (stability/sound quality wise)? Stability? It's a beta. And I have my doubts that they will ever make it final. If it's running, it runs quite stable though. To get there, it might be a little bumpy. * To me it sounds better. It seems to me that at least the volume-lock 100 won't make a difference on SQ anymore. And to me that was one of the major flaws in 7.5.x * I'm not sure if there's something wrong with the rendering of coverarts. Lots of albumarts do look cripled on my iPad, even though I got HQ activated. * I figured out that if leaving out the playlist scanning (leave playlist path blank), the full new scan becomes lighting fast. If you guys work without playlists give it a try. * I'm more than disappointed that when adding albumart or new albums I still have to run an annyoing complete database delete/rescan. (To others: Please, let me know if there is a solution to it) * On my Linux system the database path entries can't be symbolic links anymore. That worked on 7.5.x (And that issue was driving me nuts, until I figured it out.) * Rebuffering on HiRes is still an issue once in a while ( It just happened on a pretty powerful and up2date Linksys E-4200, which I'm currently testing. That one comes with a great TCP-IP throughput. iperf is giving me 900Mbit/s for a PC2server communication. (Wish: Could anybody generate an iperf binary that we can run on a Touch? - Would be very nice if somebody could get us a binary!!! This way all of us could test the link performance, instead of fishing in the dark. Or if there's a working and doable howto (it shouldn't take more than an hour), how to built a binary for the Touch, I can do it by myself. Any support would be really appreciated with this.) A little Off-Topic: *iPeng just released an update that makes it work more stable with 7.6. beta. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi guys. Router/network related issues are ususally causing some kind of rebuffering issues. We're talking about timeframes of a couple of seconds where crackling would occur. Alsa related underruns causing usually some kind of scratchy continous sound. Since I got my new router in place network related issues completely disappeard. Modern style routers are made for handling multiple HD-video-streams at the same time. They'll be able to cope quite well with our native-flac streams. If you think about upgrading check out e.g. the upper range Linksys products. For the hackers around here: Look for DD-WRT/openWRT compatibility. This way you can play around with tailor-made firmware, different settings, additional features and sometimes even better performance. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Squeezebox audio quality, really that good ?
sckramer;638774 Wrote: Soundcheck-- what did they change in 7.6 to make it sound better? I'm still on the release version... No idea. I'd even assume that the improvement on SQ just happened by coincidence. I for myself figured that the 100%-volume-lock tweak is no longer required. 100% locked volume sounds like 100% on the slider now. For me that's reason enough to stay with 7.6-beta. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88540 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Squeezebox audio quality, really that good ?
My 2 cent. I do consider the stock Touch an average sounding consumer device. Not more , not less. Putting all kind of functionality on such a small device is IMO one of the main problems, when it comes to SQ related issues. But that's a product management issue. Logitech needs to sell volumes. Still - with a bit of intelligent programming focusing on SQ they could have done much much better at a rediculous low effort. Sonos is usally prefered not because of SQ. People prefer Sonos because of Ease Of Use / Plug n Play. The operation of Squeezeproducts could be done better. There's usually quite some hacking involved to get things going. And have a look at the control UI supplied by Logitech. This is from my pespective nothing more than awful. Kudos to Pipin, that he has developped iPeng. Without iPeng The Squeezefamily would have been unacceptable to me. People go for Linn because of SQ. The Control UI is also quite nice. And there's something to sell for the dealer. I was told by a dealer, that the effort to sell and explain a Squeezebox Touch is at least ten times higher than a 10k amplifier. Not to forget the support and numerous calls they receive afterwards. You might already guess where these guys set priorities. The Transporter got a branding problem. A Logitech device at such a price point?!?! I do believe that the target group is quite small. And I know that there are better DACs out there then a Transporter. My guess is that people that are into high-end won't go for a Logitech Transporter. And many People want to stay flexible. A transport+external dac is that what's required. That's why an SB Touch is probably rather successful. Then Logitech has another problem. Product maintenance. Since a year 7.6 beta is available. 7.6. beta is IMO seriously better sounding than 7.5. Logitech obviously resolved some issues. Why does it need such a long time to launch 7.6? I do think they got their priorities wrong. The competition is not sleeping. I'll stop it here. This is my personal view. As I said with a bit of tweaking an SB Touch will make a great Transport. Logitech got a great base with this product. Yep a base. That's there problem. Not everybody is willing to hack the device for better soundquality. Logitech just needs to get some issues resolved to make it a winner product. They probably don't even have to put much more money on it. Of course the branding issue remains. I'm not sure if audiophile and Logitech goes together. My Touch Toolbox thread was moved into the Audiophile section within shortest time. And I guess you know what it means over here to end up in the audipohile section of that forum. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=88540 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
@PasTim Since I run my new network setup I don't face any hickups on a server-side 100MBIT/s speed. I'm running a Linux server. I tested it with and without tweaked TCP/IP parameters. I never tested it on XP. Just W7. Setting the interface to 100MBIT/s doesn't mean that you turn off auto negotiation. You can try autoneg on/off by setting another parameter. You can also leave it if it doesn't work. You can also dig deeper into TCP Optimizer. As I wrote on the blog. Not much is written about network optimzations on streaming networks. The online gamers do have some interesting stuff about it online. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;633085 Wrote: ... the screen that is turned off by the mods :-) I love you cynism. Why don't you just stay out of this thread. You got the Toolbox installed and keep sneaking around to poison the atmosphere. You know - weired people like you keep me back me from releasing TT30. Back to the situation: Yep the screen is turned off. The touch surface stays on. A known fact since the very beginning. I'd love to get that piece turned off too by a SW switch. If people would read and follow my blog properly they would have turned off internal sounds prior to installing the toolbox. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi folks. Quick question to the experts. I'm trying to stop all logging in an efficiant way. I managed with one command on the server by manipulating /var/lib/squeezeboxserver/prefs/log.conf (I tried to avoid to do it manually from advanced settings/logging) Can anybody tell me where I find the corresponding prefs files on the Touch? I'd also vote for a new logging profile called All Off . ;) Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
snottmonster;632831 Wrote: Pleased for you - but as you may appreciate, the important question we're really all dying to know the answer to is: Does the Cisco/Fritzbox equipment sound better than the D-Link? ;) Let's put is this way. The Cisco hub is quite a good device. It even allows for QoS settings. I do run a better PS and a filter on it. I'd say it performs very similar to the D-Link hub. While doing the troubleshooting I left those hubs out of the loop. That situation reminded me SQ-wise why I put it actually in the loop some time ago. ;) Next to come. TV and cable-receiver are gonna be hooked up to my homenet too. I think it is not a bad idea to put a quality device at that downstream-position. I'm also more than happy that I got everything wired up now. I'm sure we'll see pretty tight streaming demands on our home networks soon. I'm gonna prepare for that. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
PasTim;632549 Wrote: PCM for 24/96 loads the network at between 5 and 10%. Flac runs at 2-3% or maybe a bit less for the same files. 1. That's what I'm saying. It can't be the network load. 2. 24/96 Flac is not making problems, even with the small Alsa buffersize One think is obvious. The network buffer margin on the Touch filled up with 24/96 PCM data seems to be driven on it`s edge. The Touch got effectively only a very few seconds music of buffered data to work with. It'll be 50% of that of a flac. There should be an issue in that area. 24/96 as flac will be transfered, decoded and played back. That task requires more processing power then PCM assuming the same network buffer size. Perhaps the network buffer is just too small for 24/96 PCM ?!?!? -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;632613 Wrote: This proves it is possible and there is nothing inherently wrong with the Touch hardware or its firmware or sbs. This proves it for your setup first of all... ;) Though it is good to know that your setup is working under pretty much all conditions. At least my Toolbox can't be blamed for the mess. ;) However. There are serveral people who complain about rebuffering issues or better instable conditions on 24/96 PCM streaming. I doubt that those peoples setups vary much from yours, if you run a standard W7 and network setup If it is correct that you won't experience any hickups even with the toolbox installed and even via WLAN, there must be something else wrong with those flawed boxes or setups. What was the exact way of debugging the rebuffering issue again ? -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
To make sure that the network is not the root cause for network related issues, you connect the server directly via cable to the client: 1. assign static IP address to your server 2. assign static IP to your Touch 3. Powerdown both 4. Hook up the cable 5. Power up the both Remark: Remote control via WLAN will be a challenge with this setup. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
You might want to try setting your card to 100MBIT under device settings. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
kiat;632292 Wrote: A beta TT3.0 !?? You need a beta tester :) ? You're too late. ;) kiat;632292 Wrote: So far the SQ wise and system response the 7.6 is many times better the 7.5.x version. I would anytime run 7.6 version instead of the stable 7.5.4 version on my ReadyNas Duo many times !?!?? Hmmh. I tried 96khz PCM streaming. Still a disaster on my setup. 96khz flacs do work. I havn't seee a Logitech product limitation 96khz/24 PCM streams not supported. On a 100MBIT interface in a GBit network, that task should be a piece of cake. I need to spent some more time on it. Then, as soon as I figured out that symbolic links as musicpath don't work anymore, I had to disable playlist scanning. The scan was absolutely unacceptable awful slow. Without playlist path configured the overall scan went smooth. I just figured that without data in the playlist path, the scanner skips playlist scans. I highly recommened this setting for those who don't use playlists. I skip talking about plugins, Mysql support asf. It's an alpha. Pretty much a year old. A beta IMO looks different. The only thing they seem to have improved from my perspective is the volume control lock and the album art scan speed. No idea what takes that long to get this revision out. Somebody talked about June as potential launch date?!?!? I can't see that. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi folks. While working on TT3.0, which I plan to introduce after Logitech launches SBS7.6 (if that ever comes to live), I had a chance to quickly checkout the new 100% volume lock feature. 7.6. lets you enable/disable the 100%-volume-lock on-the-fly via player settings. Good news so far. By using this function I do not notice any sound differences between locked and unlocked if done it the Logitech way anymore. I'll look further into it. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0 and more' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;630373 Wrote: Certainly the Touch and SBS 7.6 CAN handle 24/96 PCM or FLAC without any issues so what's left is your network and/or server hardware... OK. Now. SBS 7.6 can't handle anything. It is not a Beta as they call it (due to whatever reasons) . I consider it a dead pre-alpha. I find it ridiculous that anytime a problem occurs those so called specialists around here show up with it's fixed in 7.6. 7.6 is not up for use. And probably will never be. I would not recommend it to anyone who looks for a rather stable system and can live with certain workarounds. Obviously Logitech is not putting any priority on 7.6. development. This messy situation is going since more then a year. I seriously doubt that 7.6. will ever be released. THX. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
PasTim;630098 Wrote: A basic scan takes several minutes for my ~14,000 tracks. Custom scan takes a further 1 to 2 hours to load non-standard tags. If SB server scans every time it starts up I'll miss my own funeral waiting for the music to start. I am one of those strange people who turns their PC off at night, and doesn't run SB all the time. Well I thought that. I tested the network effect by downloading some large files (more music) over the internet at the same time as playing 24/96 flacs via flac native format. Total network utilisation was steady at around 8-9% and I had no problems (although much of the traffic was in the opposite direction from the PC's perspective - I may try some other way of stressing the network). When I use PCM, network utilisation varies quite a bit, from 1-2% to 8 or 9%. I can sometimes play 24/96 for several minutes with no issue, and then it stops for rebuffering. The PC CPU is hardly running at more than 3%. A major difficulty I have is that I don't have the knowledge to really work out what's going on, and I have a very workable method of playing music (i.e. via flac). PCM may be better - I'm not really sure since I've spent too much time worrying that it's going to stop any minute. So I've run 7.5.3, 7.5.4 and 7.6 (the latter only briefly - it may have been better but the other issues rule it out). I guess I'll stay on 7.5.3 for a while. I still cannot work out why a smaller buffer would improve quality. I would, naively, have though a large buffer would allow the system a chance to run more smoothly and reliably. Have you determined a reason? Do you think the buffer size will have an impact when using flac format over the network? I played quite intensive with 24/96 over the weekend. (I downloaded 24/96 Oscar Peterson - Night Train from HD Tracks - I love it.) I experience that random rebuffering on 24/96 PCM streams too. This rebuffering also happens if I quickly switch several tracks. Everything becomes kind of instable. I do have a note about it on the blog since the very beginning of my project. Probably I ran into that problem earlier. I think it's time to address the issue. I'm well aware about the standard Logitech answer: Stream flacs!! Looks like a compromise/workaround to hide certain shortcomings or flaws. On a first glance this problem shouldn't have anything to do with the toolbox itself. If the buffer is running at 2 there shouldn't be any mod impacting the actual throughput. The toolbox actually should improve the throughput. From a networking and processor load perspective there is plenty of headroom left - that you confirm too. The Touch input-streaming-buffer ( which has nothing to do with my buffer mod) is affected most when running 24/96 PCM streams instead of flac streams. There must be a problem in that area. Afaik Logitech realized some streaming related inefficiencies, which are supposed to be improved in 7.6.. I'm not sure though if above issue would be affected with those 7.6. improvements. If 7.6 wouldn't be that unstable (see beta forum) I'd give it a try by myself. Does anybody have a clue if 7.6. will ever come to live? Nothing seems to be moving since a year or so. If anybody is streaming 24/96 as PCM without any problems, please let us know about your config. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;630146 Wrote: Rebuffering is caused by the inability of the server to supply data via the network to the player at the regular pace that is required. I don't think so. Read my last post. I run a fast server and a fast optimized network - I actually slowed it down to 100MBit - which doesn't mean that I didn't test 1GBit. A 100MBIT wired network handles that 24/96 PCM load easily with plenty of headroom left for other stuff. WLAN networks are a bit tricky of course. I suspect inefficiencies in the Logitech stream handling and/or input-streaming-buffer handling on the Touch. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;630159 Wrote: I was talking about a WLAN :-) I see. Then you missed the subject. Anyhow. Your posts-counter went +1 ...and that's what really counts. ;) Phil Leigh;630159 Wrote: I've never seen rebuffering on an ethernet lan... Me neither. Then it must be the Touch causing the trouble. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;630162 Wrote: Where does PasTim state he is using a wired network? I'm using a wired network. And I confirmed his findings. Any relevant hints are appreciated - as usual. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
snottmonster;630177 Wrote: Note also that given the wide variety of equipment available and ways in which it can be setup you cannot just assume that 2 people experiencing similar but generic symptoms actually have the same problem with the same root cause. And that's exactly why I invited more people to verify the subject some posts earlier. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;630284 Wrote: So - I've given it 20 minutes of testing with 24/96 flac files streamed as PCM, skipping between tracks on the same and different albums. I haven't been able to make the Touch rebuffer once. I've even tried 24/192 (via Sox), skipping to MP3 and back - nothing worked. Cool. I'll give it a try today. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
PasTim;629977 Wrote: I did - that's where the error message comes from. I've tried several buffer sizes. Can I ask why the buffer size would make a difference? Keeping the load on the cpu down makes a lot of sense, but I can' see why the buffer size would, unless it indirectly causes more cpu thrashing. I may have to revert to (native) flac. Even at the default buffer size I get some cut-outs. It may be my network can't handle PCM. As I wrote on the blog. The message is related to a kernel bug. It's not an issue. Logitech would have to patch the (old) Linux kernel to get rid of it. This probably will never happen. If you run 7.5.4. you might run into performance problems. That has been reported some posts earlier. Upgrading to 7.6-beta did the trick for those people. I do recommend to stay with 7.5.3. - if possible. I'm well aware that due to Logitech update mechanisms this is not an easy undertaking. ;) If you won't manage leave the buffer size at default. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
PasTim;629990 Wrote: I admire your patience, both with none too bright people like me, and with the argumentative ones ... There's really nothing to admire. ;) If I compare the number of support requests per 1000 toolbox downloads, I'd say the number of support requests are neglectable - roughly 1/1000. And meanwhile more often the community jumps in first. None too bright people : it's all relative, isn't it. You can't expect everybody to come up with the same level of knowledge about everything. That has nothing to do with brightness that has something to do with focus. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Helloharry;627798 Wrote: Hi soundcheck, i hv been off line for a few days and thanks v much for your reply: 1. I checked the 44.1/16 and its stable 2. I run it wired, on a dlink 655 router, shielded cat5 (am getting cat6a but can tfnd good ones) to a dlink hub 1005d, unshield patch cord to touch and then spdif toslink to dac. 3. I tried the 100bps half duplex mode and it works smoothly 4. When i first initially set it up i said it works smoothly because i was playing radio.. 5. I usually set flac decode native on touch rather than pcm coz i have some 192 music, i tried flac pcm but did not solve the crackling problem. 6. I looked into the qos, but there arent much things there that i understand.. Would you recommend that i use the half duplex mode instead? Or the default auto mode? Is there any specific qos setting i should modify that could solve the problem? The server is totally dedicated for touch. Btw, the linear psu for hub that you recommend, would just any 5v1a linear psu works? There some no brand wall plug type linear psu i find here in china which cost just maybe 20usd, i can't find any better ones in a metal box.. Many thanks! Harry QoS: On my DIR-855 I under Advanced/QoS Engine Enabled: QoS Automatic Classification Some other routers allow to set priorities also on HW ports. I would skip the SW ports tweaking for the beginning. Transmission speed: I'm running currently 100MBIT duplex on the server. You should figure out what works best for you. There are too many variables on the network. PS: I also used one of those fad 5-6A ebay supplies, which comes with several different connectors and voltages. (I had it at hand) Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Upgrade from touch+cambridge 840c
Phil Leigh;627543 Wrote: 80% of what you hear is the speakers. Spend lots on speakers... Just 80%!?!? My DAC or amp is not making any sounds. I hear 100% coming from my speakers. ;) My 2 cents: Every single part plays a major role in a pretty complex audio system. Meanwhile I consider the source more important than the speaker (assuming a reasonable quality device). That doesn't mean though, that I'd spent 3000+ for a source (anymore). I'm running a 250$ full-digital DIY amp nowadays (my Sabre and amps are settling dust). Full digital amps (DA conversion and amplification on a 2*2cm chip) would be a disaster for the audio industry. Probably one reason why this technology is not gaining market share. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=87098 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Upgrade from touch+cambridge 840c
Robin Bowes;627629 Wrote: On 26/04/11 09:16, soundcheck wrote: I'm running a 250$ full-digital DIY amp nowadays Hey, I'm interested in that. Got any links, etc? R. -- Feed that ego and you starve the soul - Colonel J.D. Wilkes http://www.theshackshakers.com/ DIY device based on 'TAS 5706' (http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tas5706.html) Wadia sells the PowerDAC 151 at around 1k. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=87098 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Upgrade from touch+cambridge 840c
Phil Leigh;627640 Wrote: Our definition of reasonable quality for speakers may be different :-) For example, I will never use speakers with passive crossovers... they just suck the life out of the music compared to a (good) active configuration. For sure every part of the system plays a role - but IME the differences between (good) DAC's and amps are really quite small compared to the differences available through choice of speakers. Ok. Now we're switching subject from source to active vs. passive speakers. Such a discussion can go on forever. You know that. In my (and not only my) setup the modified Touch feeding that full digital amp makes a huge difference. It even makes my 15year old Acapella speakers shine. For quite some time I wasn't even motivated to move on to my main system. I asked myself what else do I need. BTW: I also run some full active ADAM speakers, beside my semi active Bastanis Apollo main speakers. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=87098 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Helloharry;627077 Wrote: Hi soundcheck, i had applied your mods with great results and everything is smooth until yesterday i applied the network optimisation tweaks accrding to toolbox v2 1.9 for win7 and at first it is great and after a while i experience cracklings/dropoffs especially when i am inputing commands on issh. I am on 7.6 and buffer size setup is 3600 (tried other values but no improvements). Is there other settings i can tried for the network opt to solve this issue? I play mostly 24/96 flacs, the network adapter on my win7 server is a intel gigabit one. Many thanks. What do you mean with at first it is great? Even on 24/96 there should be plenty of headroom - on a wired connection. The Touch should buffer enough data that XRUNS shouldn't occur. Are you decoding the flacs on the server? How about 44.1/16? Is that rate running stable? Can you tweak the router QoS settings? -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Hi guys.
After a bit of testing. I'm more confused then before:
When it comes to sox resampling parameters I'd say that below lines
can do. It's not that far away form the inital post of the thread.
I do output 24bit and a fixed 96khz.
I left out gain adjust. Dithering is gone since I got 24bit on the
output
for now.
I'm not 100% sure yet if to continue with n*44.1 rates.
flc flc * *
# FT:{START=--skip=%t}U:{END=--until=%v}
[flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t flac -C 0
-rate -v -s -I 96000
flc flc * *
# FT:{START=--skip=%t}U:{END=--until=%v}
[flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t flac -C 0
-rate -v -s 96000
However. I continued to look for the best resampler. I tried most of
those those freeware types.
Some folks at AA suggested to try iZotope or Audition 3 instead of Sox.
I did some testing with iZotope (soundforge pro trial version).
I also downloaded Samplitude 11 Pro Trial.
All I can say so far is that iZotope seems to do a better job then
Sox.
All files were offline resampled.
Samplitude Trial won't let me save the files. It's not that easy to
compare to the others. Still it sounds very promising.
--
soundcheck
::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0'
(http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html)
::: by soundcheck
soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Phil Leigh;626785 Wrote: Gain adjust is critical - without it you will get clipping on upsampling Most of the modern style high-gain recordings are driven into clipping. They give a sh.. about that. I tried and without gain adjust. I liked without gain adjust best (for now). I'm not really sure if to bother about a couple of samples hitting the ceiling. Still, sox is giving me worse results compared to the other apps I mentioned. Once you've listened to the better stuff, you gotta a hard time to step back again. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Wombat;626790 Wrote: I´m really interested how you rate your resampling and why clipping is a non-issue suddenly. Do you allow aliasing and how much aliasing? If no aliasing, why not? What bandwith? Steep or slow Filter? What phase response 10, 25, 30 or even 50? Dither yes or no and what kind? What is the advantage/disadvantage of using the corresponding setting with sox against iZotope and what settings exactly you choosed in your comparison? Since you give a recommendation i guess you checked all that? There were several people before that even had deep knowledge about the mathematics behind that stuff and no one can proclaim to know the best way doing it because there isn´t. Oh -- you're still around. 1st of all. Try to understand what's written. My post starts with I'm more confused then before. It continues with I'm not sure yet... and goes on with Some folks at AA suggested to try iZotope... Does that sound like a recommendation to you? You IMO should have stayed out of this discussion. 2nd. Several people with deep knowledge developed the SB Touch and others with potentially even deeper knowledge were trying to talk the effects of my Toolbox down. You know - I couldn't care less. Listening to people doesn't keep me off doing things differently. There are just too many smart people out there (here). People like you, with this kind of negative attitude, I consider destructive. I'm still wondering why I'm responding to something like that. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Phil Leigh;626798 Wrote: Correct - there is no best - there is only different. Did you try iZotope lately? -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Wombat;626313 Wrote: Can´t await all the new superlative wordings in describing the earth-shattering improvements coming from upsampling soon... What kind of bullsh*t is this supposed to be. Though that fits the overall picture... If you would have left out that comment, your answer could have been considered constructive. Anyhow: The ones who want to try 1. Linear filters Which come with a little pre-ringing. Skip -M. The debate about those different types goes on forever. 2. Clipping gain -3db might work. That's what the man-page (sox manual) says. Some chose even -8db. -6db might not be that bad either. You'd limit the digital calculation losses. In fact the best choice would be offline upsampling to avoid more impact then needed. On the other hand new style productions are driven into clipping anyhow. People get used to it. 3. Dither I didn't know that noise shaped dither is not applied on 88.2 Pretty weired. If that is the case one could assume that default TPDF is applied. Again. You can skip dither with -D. Sox is a nice playground app. Just one lttle parameter change can change the world. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Phil Leigh;626344 Wrote: If you are upsampling to 88.2 or 96 you should use a linear phase filter IME. You want SOX to retain the original bit-depth, so if 16 went in you want 16 out and if 24 went in, you want 24 out. The Touch itself will change everything that is 16 to 24 anyway. You should not add any dither when upsampling. With SOX, upsampling from 44.1 to 96 is just as accurate as upsampling to 88.2 - there is no truth in the multiples are better approach. to avoid clipping use the sox volume command. I have found that v0.965 is very effective on the majority of material. It's not that I want to retain 16 bit. If it is possible to set the the sox output stream to 24bit I'm gonna do that. Dither I wouldn't use if 24 bit output works. The guy who started the thread had no bit-depth change in the commandline btw. That's why I brought the issue up. That the Touch transforms anything to 24bit later on is a different subject. What about there is no truth Anything out there proving your statement. Or do I have to do some listening tests. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
One more. Just figured that beside linear and minphase there's an intermediate ( potentially best of two worlds) option. Perhaps it's worth a try. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
One more: When testing different SRCs and options I think everybody should exactly know what the DAC is doing in that area. Many of the DACs around do some kind of resampling. Some do it with multiples of the original others not. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be useless to do resampling to 88,2 or 96 on SBS if the DACs SRC does it again to even higher rates. Beside that - at least that's my experience - higher load on the SB environment due to HiRes data has it's own effects. After all, all those differences should be rather subtle. I guess it's not gonna be that that easy to nail it down. IMO too many parameters in the game. I'll give a try. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Phil Leigh;626364 Wrote: If you don't believe me (or Wombat) you should just listen (of course, you should do that anyway!) It's not about believe. That we do in church. ;) If you want to bust myths - prove it. Believing a '\short-legged,muscular quadruped\' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wombat) is a different story. :D -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Hi there. How would you guys: 1. configure a 24bit output bitrate to avoid dithering ( Sox usually needs a -D option specified to avoid automatic dithering.) A 16 bit output should be avoided for obvious reasons. 2. configure an appropriate attenuation to avoid clipping 3. stream a PCM stream instead of a flac stream I'd appreciate if anybody could post a working 24/96 config line assuming a 16/44.1 input file. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Wombat;626235 Wrote: There were one or two threads already with some commandlines and magic parameters including polyphase, minimum phase and alike stuff. Only input i may give is that a gain of -1.5dB for avoiding clipping should be enough on all material with a gentle filter. I know. I've been looking into it earlier too. I skipped it because of other priorities. ;) -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Better resampling for SB Classic and Touch (probably all)
Phil Leigh;626264 Wrote:
1) Shouldn't require ANY dither when up sampling.
2) Why do you think the output is being forced down to 16-bit? (are you
using SOX 14.3.2?)
Pretty much every activity in 16 bit land will pass the borders.
That's why dither should be applied.
However:
The critical question is if an already dithered material should be
redithered again. Tbe big issue is here, you don't know what dithering
was applied to your base material.
If you don't specify 24bit on the sox output. You'll get out what got
in.
I havn't managed to change that outgoing rate. Any hints would be
appreciated.
Here is an example line I just put together:
flc flc * *
# FT:{START=--skip=%t}U:{END=--until=%v}
[flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t
flac -C 0 - gain -h rate -v -s -M 88200 dither -s
1. on 44.1 base material we should stay n*44.1 - if the dac supports it
as native frequency.
2. I've chosen a steep minimum phase filter.
3. The gain will be automatically adjusted to avoid clipping
4. And I applied shaped dither - sox default is TPDF
Cheers
--
soundcheck
::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0'
(http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html)
::: by soundcheck
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Covenant;626265 Wrote: I have just reinstalled the Soundcheck mods following the recent software upgrades. Previously I had the buffer set to 4000 but now I get crackling at 15000. The crackling is only when a command is entered-changing tracks or channels. Any idea whats gone wrong? Did you run the 7.5.4 upgrade? If yes. Go for 7.6. You wouldn't be the first. Cheers -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi folks. It seems that somebody is following my DIY-Audio thread. ;) Just to let you now: I introduced chapter 1.9 on my blog. I'm talking about Network Optimizations and different networking implementations on different operating systems. ( We touched upon that earlier) Networking/Streaming is a very high prioritized task - for obvious reasons - on the the Touch. The ones that managed to understand the logic behind my mods will easily understand, that such a load might have an impact on the device. What's going on: 1. First the ethernet needs to be managed on it's own from the Touch side. There are numerous parameters optimizing TCP/IP traffic. By default most of them are not properly set. ( You can learn a lot if you follow the online gamer crowd tactics btw.) 2. The server needs to step on it's brakes all the time, otherwise the Touch would be flooded. 3. And 3rd the streaming buffer needs to be continuously refilled causing a continuous load on the machine/scheduler. (It seems that inefficiencies have been realized be Logitech too. They seem to have optimized traffic handling in 7.6.) Trying this just takes 5 minutes. Just a little configuration work to do on the server side. Enjoy. -- soundcheck ::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) ::: by soundcheck soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
@firedog You run an EA Pacecar according to your signature, right? The Pacecar is supposed to be doing quite sophisticated reclocking, right? The only reason, why it's there is to clean up the mess supplied by the source - any source. You IMO shouldn't hear any differnces with any of my Touch mods assuming that Steve knows what he's doing. ;) -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
It was just reported that the guy who reported slight problems with 7.5.4. made it to 4000 again after upgrading to 7.6.. Obviously he couldn't live with that 7.5.4. situation. ;) -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Tom186;624153 Wrote: My firmware version is 7.5.3 at the moment... should I hold off from upgrading to anything higher, or is there anyone who runs 7.5.4 or 7.6 with a lower buffer size than 4000? I don't think that there is need to upgrade. Though, there is a slight risk that you get updated through mysqueezebox.com. Even though you can avoid it on the server side, by turning off automatic updates , you can't really avoid it on from the MSB.com side - what I consider a major weakness. At MSB.com there should be the same option under Preferences Automatic Updates Yes/NO as you'll find on the server. Or at least in the Touch Menu should be a setting No automatic updates (Or did I miss that?). Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi guys. A guy at DIY-Audio is reporting after a 7.5.4. update poorer performance of the device. Before 7.5.4. he was able to run buffersize 4000, now he's up to 4700. Anybody over here made similar experiences? Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
JohnSwenson;623284 Wrote: My theory is that with a large buffer you have lots of processing happening all at once at fairly infrequent intervals. With a small buffer you have much less processing but closer together, the processing is more spread out. John. Very interesting. Great to see that you measured some kind of impact. Less processing for smaller buffers!?!? Hmmh. You got a lot more interrupts in the system to refill a smaller buffer. Theoretically the total amount of data you process should be the same, if you take a certain buffer management losses out of equation. Perhaps this is something of interest, it might be related to the subject: An article about buffer or latency jitter can be found over 'here' (http://www.rme-audio.de/english/techinfo/lola_latec.htm) at RME. Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;623372 Wrote: That's a totally different concept - RME are talking about latency - the delay between an input stimulus (such as an incoming midi note-on event from a keyboard or other controller) and the generation of the desired corresponding sound from a software or hardware sampler or sound generator/synth. The jitter they describe is variability in THIS latency - and anyone who's spent time in a midi-equipped studio will be familiar with this - it's very annoying. Anyway, maybe JS could clarify what he saw/measured? It is about midi. You figured it out . I knew you're a pretty bright fellow. Great. You missed bridging what's being said over to our discussion. It's about the principle how a buffer gets managed. And that this might not be as linear as some people might think it is. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Tweaking - Bypass internal SB DAC and SPidf Question
If you apply my Toolbox to the Touch, you can turn the analog output off from the SW side. At least the bits are no longer routed in parallel to all outputs in that case. Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86630 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
1. You need to do a factory reset first. (see blog) 2. Jive2 just kills the 2nd jive process. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
snottmonster;621922 Wrote: Why would decreasing the buffer size have any positive impact on sound quality? In fact, wouldn't setting it too low have an adverse effect due to possible under-running and there then being insufficient data to feed to the DAC? On a pretty busy PC or Touch (if you'd run everything incl. flac decoding, wlan decryption, samba server, monitor management, asf.asf. local) you'd be right. The audio related process/tasks wouldn't get enough airtime. The buffers wouldn't be refilled in time. Consequence would be XRUNS (buffer underruns) causing nasty sounds. Beside that a smaller buffer would even cause a higher load due to much higher refill cycles - making things even worse!!! If you run the Touch the way I recommend, the processor is not that busy with sharing processing time anymore. The processor mainly channels a datastream from a to b. A processor is usually working in a sequential 1ms time slot mode. The kernel scheduler (the heart of a system) is in charge for making sure that every process gets a fair amount of processing time assigned. Process lock-ups must be avoided and huge idletimes (causing stuttering if you e.g. move windows on a Windows system) should also be avoided. Those assignments of processing time slots are not linear. It's not like getting a time slot every other ms for your process. If you'd followed my setup recommendations and applied my toolbox, you got rid of as much shared processor load as possible. No need to play fair any longer. And a lot of ms for exclusive audio streaming use. By shrinking the buffer to very low levels I claim most and even more processing time for the buffer management - feeding the sound device. To be on he save side Logitech had to choose 20.000. They have to make sure that no XRUNS occur under any load condition. It's the best compromise from their perspective. I'm managing (with my current setup) to run stable at 3400. Now. The final and the key question then is: Why should a smaller buffer should have any impact to the sound compared to a large buffer, even if considering that the system gets more stressed by that smaller buffer. I can't answer it. My theory is the following: I guess it is not the absolute load which is the key factor here. The processor actually doesn't even have to be that busy. It's more about the share factor of processing time. My guess is that this share factor has something to do with non-linearities. If I run the buffer at very low levels I achieve a slightly better linearity by getting more exclusive processing time assigned to the stream. And that's what's finally causing less jitter. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
snottmonster;621941 Wrote: Less jitter by reducing the depth of memory buffer supplied via a high speed ethernet connection? I think I understand now... No. It's not the ethernet buffer. It's the Alsa (Linux soundlayer) buffer. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Awesome news -- got my S-Booster
adamdea;620726 Wrote: I am not sure how you get that out of John Swenson's comments http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=557729postcount=3 In fact he says that there is little effect on the output of the touch from changing supplies, and does not think that linear supplies are necessarily better. In fact he says they may well be worse. He does seem to think that his design is a jolly good idea, and is quite clear that the critical part of it is the Hammond choke. He is also very careful to discourage any deviation from the precise spec. Unless the S-Booster is pretty well identical to his design, then it cannot claim the support of his rather cautious and guarded opinion. As a matter of interest where do you get the information that John Swenson's design is basically the same as the S-Booster ?ie in essence that it contained a Hammond choke (not a simple cap filter which he plainly regards as inferior.) Others have commented on the absence of technical information about the design and functioning of the S-booster. Yep. Most of your comments are correct. Though you can open up the Sbooster and can have a look what's in there. The Sbooster is pretty basic, that's correct. Though it's not a simple cap filter. That would be a first order filter. It's a 2nd order lowpass. It's pretty much the same setting as John's setup. The Sbooster IMO is not expensive. And best of all -- it works. Howard mentioned large improvement. And yes, John is always careful to avoid not to bet put into the snakeoil-fraction corner. And that usually happens over here immediately as soon as you can't show measurements or scientific explanations. But meanwhile we know that even if measurements are made and effects are proven quite some ignorant people around here tend to spread the old snakeoil message. I don't have a problem with that. I know what I hear. That myth is busted. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86542 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Awesome news -- got my S-Booster
Phil Leigh;620740 Wrote: There's no way that the S-booster has a choke in it anything like the one in the JS design - it just wouldn't physically fit (nor could it be done at anything like the price...). Howard, how much does the s-booster weigh? You might call it inductor. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86542 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Kuja;620283 Wrote: Soundcheck, Can this mod be separated in two mods? :) Plase? :) Why the Alsa plugin output mode tweak, had to go together with activating/deactivating spdif/analog outputs and USB? I would like to have only spdif output active, but at the same time, I would also like to be able to listen to some of my favorite internet radio stations, which are now suffering from the chipmunk effect. . I can tell you (and I told you before) that the whole modification is rather useless if you run plug output mode. That plug feature would just be more work and testing for my side. To all: I'll release a new ttout beta soon. I guess you'll like it. (It'll turn your RCAs into wood to avoid the antenna effect ;) ) No. Actually it's gonna be slightly better than that. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Quality of digital outs from the Squeezebox
Kal Rubinson;619782 Wrote: Almost as good as the SBT: http://www.stereophile.com/content/logitech-squeezebox-touch-network-music-player-measurements How about measuring the Touch with my Toolbox applied? ;) -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84903 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] squeezebox setup for audiophiles
Phil Leigh;619274 Wrote: OP: Back to ethernet... there are supposed to be isolating transformers at each end of an ethernet connection... Yep. * And a big fad polluted ground feeding all kind of mess into your device. No, there is nothing like an ITU-T (Telecommunications standards) conform grounding in place in 99.999% of all households. The Touch ground becomes the tip of your antenna. * though wired is still better than WLAN, which causes other problems inside the Touch. t is not the WLAN itself. It's its endpoint characteristics. Some folks made good experiences by introducing a wireless bridge and just introduced a small 3ft unshielded patch cable. One more: I really liked the earlier comment by somebody else: Buy a transporter. No need to tweak that one. As far as I recall there is quite a huge group of people around, who claimed that also for the Touch. (Phil thx again that you took some measurements!) Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86419 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi folks. I left the SW side for a little while and concentrated on the HW: Below I at DIY-Audio: I now implemented some HW mods inside. 1. SPDIF cable directly connected to mainboard. 2. Additional piggyback-style OSCON capacitor add-ons on all exisiting ELCOs. 3. EMI/RFI protection 4. Mounting the board on a piece wood 5. No more Touch-Screen (runs headless now) All that took me 2 hours of work. You really need to be careful not to break anything - which is most time consuming. Result: What should I say to avoid making those of you without those mods in place more than jealous... Have a good one. Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Phil Leigh;619584 Wrote: Klaus - what DAC are you using? Phil I'm running 1. a Twisted Pear Buffalo II (ESS SABRE ES 9018 DAC) (battery powered) (DIY module) 2. a TI TAS 5706 full digital amp (battery powered) (DIY prototype) I listened to ( I just list IMO one of the top of the line commercial products): 1. Antelope Zodiac Gold -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] squeezebox setup for audiophiles
dhinesh;619620 Wrote: If you take a look at hiface (m2 tech) and the modified hi face, Pure music, amarra, etc their whole selling point is to give you a bit perfect signal at the USB output and feed it to your dac via a digital cable. That's not correct. Amarra. Pure Music and so forth are mainly doing what I'm doing with my Toolbox. They try to limit the PC impact on the data stream as much as possible. And Amarra in particular is charging a lot of money for it. Hint: There's a freeware OSX player called Audirvana. That one should be tried first. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86419 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] squeezebox setup for audiophiles
Wombat;619014 Wrote: I have no Touch and love my Transporter but from reading all kinds of things making the Touch sounding better it must be a real broken design ;) You gotta love your Transporter. You paid a lot if money for it. ;) I guess not very many people have considered to tweak that device. The Touch is a great design. Kudos to the designers behind it. What this device delivers at such a pricetag is incredible. After a little tuning it'll catch up or even beat most of the stuff out there at any price. My SW tuning is free of charge. Network and PS tuning is affordable would do good to any device, even to your Transporter I'd guess. Again. The Touch, a little tweaked, must be considered a door opener into audiophile spheres, especially if used as Transport. By no means I would consider it a broken device. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=86419 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
Hi folks. I forked that volume control discussion to the developers forum. Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
JohnSwenson;618083 Wrote: The actual gain computations happen inside jive_alsa, I know exactly where, I'll take a look at it tonight. The routine takes a 16 bit gain and a 24 bit value and returns a 32 bit value. The 32 bit value is right shifted by 8 bits, MSB zero padded into 32 bits and sent to ALSA. John S. Thx John. Though the last value on the curve is 65536, which his 2^16, which is the 17th bit already. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
bluegaspode;618073 Wrote: Again I'd suggest to follow the easy route: That obviously won't solve my and some others VC-100 sound difference issue. If I'd be following the easy route all the time, I'd still be living in a cave sitting with an average product on my lap. I'll look further into it. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
@bluegaspode. Thx for the hints. Hmmh. logconf.lua was not the place where the actual UI settings are kept. I figured that there is another variable volume. This can go up to 100. It reflects the actual UI settings. That one also seems to get mapped to the array index somewhere. Since the array index just goes up to 99 I hope that there is not a problem in that mapping somewhere. That volume variable also gets changed even if the volume is locked. Which makes sense. From what I can see. It won't make any difference. The 0-99 scale you're talking about is just the array index, isn't it? One more Q: Does anybody know what decode is actually doing in terms of binary algebra with the handed over gain value? Cheers -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
I just stepped over something which seems a little odd to me: The range of the Touch volume slider is 0-100!!! The variable volume gets values from 0 to 100 assigned. At least that's what I verified in /etc/squeezeplay/userpath/settings/Playback.lua. It's not what bluegaspode mentioned earlier you set values between 0-99( that's also the range/resolution of the volume slider of the Touch). 0-99 volume curve indexes = 100fields != 0-100% UI scale = 101 fields Isn't this is mismatch? Or do I count wrong? In the Playback.lua code they talk about 1-100%. Is there a field missing somewhere? -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0
You need to keep indexes and values of that array in sync resp. consistant between all controls. That at least would be my understanding. VC control on the Touch is controlled via the index and not via the value AFAIK. That index gets mapped to the curve. There is no index 100 in that array for the 101st value of the volume control. It's not about max or min values as far as I can judge it. If 100% is the last value than this would be index 100 and not 99. From what I can see the curve lacks one field/value. If this has any impact. No idea. I just brought it to the table. Even you as expert obviously have been confused about that. -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84742 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Quality of digital outs from the Squeezebox
MichaelJ;617321 Wrote: When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind:it may be the beginning of knowledge but you have scarcely, in your thoughts, advanced to the state of science. William Thompson, Lord Kelvin. Checkout my Touch Thread. Phil measured and proved it!! -- soundcheck 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 2.0' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html) || 'soundcheck's Touch Toolbox - Beta Blog' (http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-tt-beta-blog.html) soundcheck's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34383 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=84903 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
