[Crm-sig] Fwd: New ISSUE: Quantifiers of P140,P141,P177
Dear Eleni, Please use the thread below for Issue 672. I propose to decide it in this SIG, with *all down-stream implications* Christian-Emil is pointing to. The comment in the last SIG: "This will have implications for the S25 Relative Dimension construct in sci." *is obsolete*. S25 will *no more *be under the umbrella of E13. This will be in the solution of issue 602, interface between CRMsci and CRMinf, consistently with the decision in CRMinf to regard E13 as subclass of I1 Argumentation, and not vice versa. Forwarded Message Subject:Re: [Crm-sig] New ISSUE: Quantifiers of P140,P141,P177 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2024 15:10:22 +0200 From: Martin Doerr To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore On 3/20/2024 8:24 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: That is true. Thanasis pointed out that a single condition assessment may comprise more than one thing. So P34 concerned (was assessed by) should not be (1.1:0:n). In the other hand the same can be said about type assignment and P41 classified (was classified by) which currently is (1,1:0,n). So maybe we should reconsider all the properties listed in my email. Again E13 is a somewhat problematic class and should perhaps be confined to reifications. yes🙂🙂 Best, Christian-Emil ---- *From:* Martin Doerr *Sent:* 19 March 2024 21:03 *To:* Christian-Emil Smith Ore *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] New ISSUE: Quantifiers of P140,P141,P177 On a second thought: "deassigned" should not be subproperty of P14 co1. It violates (1,1: 0,n), isn't it? On 3/19/2024 8:52 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: Dear Martin, I have read this issue a little late. I have no problem with your argumentation. There may be a side effect. P35: Quantification: many to many, necessary (1,n:0,n) For all x,y we have P37(x,y) ⇒P141(x,y) Since the quantification of P35 is (1,n:0,n), then it may exist P37(a,b) and P37(a,c) and b is not c. (if not the quantification should be (1,1:0,n). From the subproperty definition P37(a,b) ⇒ P141(a,b) and P37(a,c) ⇒ P141(a,c) so we can conclude that P141(a,b) and P141(a,c) which contradicts the proposed quantification (1,1:0,n) of P141. In general a subproperty cannot have a less restrictive quantification than its superproperty. If I am correct we have check the scopenotes of P34, P35, P37, P38, P40, P42 P140 assigned attribute to (was attributed by) Domain: E13Attribute Assignment Range:E1CRM Entity Superproperty of: E14 Condition Assessment. P34 concerned (was assessed by): E18Physical Thing [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] E16 Measurement. P39 measured (was measured by): E18Physical Thing [OK] E17 Type Assignment. P41 classified (was classified by): E1 CRM Entity [OK] P141 assigned (was assigned by) Domain: E13Attribute Assignment Range:E1CRM Entity Superproperty of: E14 Condition Assessment. P35 has identified (identified by): Ε3 Condition State [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] E15 Identifier Assignment. P37 assigned (was assigned by): E42 Identifier [ (0,n:0,n), not OK] E15 Identifier Assignment. P38 deassigned (was deassigned by): E42 Identifier [ (0,n:0,n), not OK] E16 Measurement. P40 observed dimension (was observed in): E54Dimension [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] E17 Type Assignment. P42 assigned (was assigned by): E55 Type [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] In all the scopepnotes (P34, P35, P37, P38, P40, P42 ) the instance of the range is in singular number. So the quantifications can be adjusted without problem. Best, Christian-Emil *From:* Crm-sig on behalf of Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* 24 January 2024 19:09 *To:* crm-sig *Subject:* [Crm-sig] New ISSUE: Quantifiers of P140,P141,P177 Dear All, I remember a discussion about the quantifiers of P140, P141, assigns attribute... As it stands now, they are both "many to many (0,n:0,n)". P177 assigned property of type, has "many to many, necessary (1,n:0,n)" Firstly, all must be necessary. you cannot assign a property type without a domain and range. Secondly, the scope notes of all these properties do use singular, "the": "This property associates an instance of E13 Attribute Assignment with the type of property or relation that this assignment maintains to hold between *the item* to which it assigns an attribute and *the attribute* itself" Thirdly, multiple values confuse which is which. I remember a discussion that, theoretically, if you have: a) one domain, one type, many ranges b) many domains, one type, one range c) one domain, many types, one range, The propositions are well defined. I assume that this discussion was never ended, nor such constraints be formulated in Logic. I doubt it can be in FOL, and is, for any user, utterly *confusing*. The quantifiers must be: "many to one, necess
Re: [Crm-sig] Towards a CRMinf stable release (issues 614, 663, 646)
Dear all, Please let me add that *I4 Proposition Set is now IsA E89 Propositional Object, and no more E73 Information Object*. The latter caused confusion of representation and meaning, which is now resolved. J27 /that the formal meaning of (has a meaning belief) /is the property which allows now the direct link from an I2 Belief to a textual statement, rather than taking a Proposition Set as text itself. This change enabled the integration of Named Graph like notations with reification like ones, as you see it now. Best Martin On 9/6/2024 12:24 PM, Eleni Tsouloucha wrote: Dear all, In view of the massive reorganization that CRMinf has been undergoing, and the need to issue a stable version of it sooner than later, I’m sending you the proposed changes we’ll be discussing and voting for at the SIG meeting. You can refer to the (updated [1]) specification document <https://docs.google.com/document/d/16VRXTUoVdY_XWeLfCf-7RRO5BSEEvP8flG68uBkM0iU/edit?usp=sharing>for a better grasp of the ensuing model. It goes without saying that any comments you have are welcome. *Α summary of the proposed changes can be found below: * 1. Introduce class _One-Proposition Set_ 2. Introduce property /is encoded by/ 3. Introduce property /has unambiguous description (describes the formal meaning of)/ 4. Introduce property /that the formal meaning of (has a meaning belief)/ 5. Introduce property /contains entity (is contained in) / 6. Introduce property /contains property type (is property type in)/ 7. Introduce property /has domain (is domain of)/ 8. Introduce property /has range (is range of) / 9. Introduce property /has property type (is property type of)/ 10. Introduce property /assigned proposition (is assigned by) / 11. _New example for I2 Belief_ 12. _Introduction_ (Scope update, usage examples) [1] You'll see that classes and properties have been assigned numeric identifiers in the document, which serves the overall ease of presentation. They have been clearly marked as under discussion and form part of the things to be decided on. All the best, -- Eleni Tsouloucha Philologist - MA Linguistics & Language Technologies Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory - Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) Address: N. Plastira 100, GR-70013 Heraklion, Grece email: tsoulo...@ics.forth.gr, eleni.crm@gmail.com Tel: +30 2810391488 -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://cidoc-crm.org/crm-sig-mailing-list
[Crm-sig] Issue: adjusting cardinalities for use of E54 Dimenion
Dear All, I propose the following modfiications for P179 and P191, as attached, following issue 665. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl Adjusting_P179 and P191_4_9_24.docx Description: MS-Word 2007 document ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://cidoc-crm.org/crm-sig-mailing-list
Re: [Crm-sig] Conflicting use of P177
Dear Thanasi, Conservatively, P177 points to P44 has condition (is condition of), see attached, which is necessary for each instance of E3. Both models may be used, I think. Best, Martin On 8/18/2024 2:32 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Thanasi, I rather suggest to connect P177 with a "Condition Type". See attached🙂. In this view, "Condition State" is treated similar to the property expansions, as the PC classes in CRM RDFS. "has damage", "has quality" were adhoc types. We can regard them as narrower terms of "Condition Type". AAT terms to be checked!! Opinions? Best, Martin On 8/18/2024 11:59 AM, Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Martin, With (the usual) apologies for the delay. I am attaching the drawing with the two examples and the super-properties. I have also marked with red arrows how P177 is meant to relate to the range of P34 and P35 based on the scope note of P177. "The direction of the assigned property of type is understood to be from the attributed item (the range of property P140 assigned attribute to(was attributed by)) to the attribute item (the range of the property P141 assigned (was assigned by))" If I understand your comment about ambiguity of P177, one could deduct the following statements for the two examples: enband core (E22) → has damage → condition state of endband cores (E3) cover (E22) → has quality → condition state of cover (E3) or even: enband core (E22) → has damage → [...] broken (E55) cover (E22) → has quality → [...] fine (E55) In that sense: a) there is an equivalence between the two structures and b) the range of P177 always defines a property holding between the range of P34 and P35. I suppose what might also be worth discussing is the time validity of the condition state in relation to the time of the condition assessment. Regarding the examples for E3 Condition State, how about the following: the state of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 in November 2003 [described as: of type "fine" after assessing it for the property "quality"] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) the state of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 in November 2003 [described as: of type "broken" after assessing it for the property "damage"] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) All the best, Thanasis On 25/07/2024 15:41, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Thanasi, Nothing wrong with your work! The point is, that the use of P177 is ambiguous for E14 , which points to a condition state. The SIG needs to define for E14 how P177 relates to the type of Condition State and/or if we regard P177 as the type of a shortcut of Condition State, as a kind of "Property Class". I remember that we intended to discuss this, but did not assign HW. Could you make a graphic representation of the examples below, together with the relevant super classes and super properties? Cheers, Martin ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E14_Condition_Assessment"; linkTarget="_blank" link="http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E14_Condition_Assessment"; en="Condition Assessment" de="Zustandsfeststellung" el="Εκτίμηση Κατάστασης" fr="Évaluation d’état matériel" pt="Avaliação do Estado Material" ru="Оценка Состояния" zh="状态评估" id="MBDcpSNK8H0tc5OoJNux-1"> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E55_Type"; linkTarget="_blank" link="http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E55_Type"; en="Type" de="Typus" el="Τύπος" fr="Type" pt="Tipo" ru="Тип" zh="类型" id="MBDcpSNK8H0tc5OoJNux-6"> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E22_Human-Made_Object"; linkTarget="_blank" link="http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E22_Human-Made_Object"; en="Human-Made Object" fr="Objet élaboré par l’humain" id="MBDcpSNK8H0tc5OoJNux-8">
Re: [Crm-sig] Conflicting use of P177
Dear Thanasi, I rather suggest to connect P177 with a "Condition Type". See attached🙂. In this view, "Condition State" is treated similar to the property expansions, as the PC classes in CRM RDFS. "has damage", "has quality" were adhoc types. We can regard them as narrower terms of "Condition Type". AAT terms to be checked!! Opinions? Best, Martin On 8/18/2024 11:59 AM, Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Martin, With (the usual) apologies for the delay. I am attaching the drawing with the two examples and the super-properties. I have also marked with red arrows how P177 is meant to relate to the range of P34 and P35 based on the scope note of P177. "The direction of the assigned property of type is understood to be from the attributed item (the range of property P140 assigned attribute to(was attributed by)) to the attribute item (the range of the property P141 assigned (was assigned by))" If I understand your comment about ambiguity of P177, one could deduct the following statements for the two examples: enband core (E22) → has damage → condition state of endband cores (E3) cover (E22) → has quality → condition state of cover (E3) or even: enband core (E22) → has damage → [...] broken (E55) cover (E22) → has quality → [...] fine (E55) In that sense: a) there is an equivalence between the two structures and b) the range of P177 always defines a property holding between the range of P34 and P35. I suppose what might also be worth discussing is the time validity of the condition state in relation to the time of the condition assessment. Regarding the examples for E3 Condition State, how about the following: the state of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 in November 2003 [described as: of type "fine" after assessing it for the property "quality"] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) the state of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 in November 2003 [described as: of type "broken" after assessing it for the property "damage"] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) All the best, Thanasis On 25/07/2024 15:41, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Thanasi, Nothing wrong with your work! The point is, that the use of P177 is ambiguous for E14 , which points to a condition state. The SIG needs to define for E14 how P177 relates to the type of Condition State and/or if we regard P177 as the type of a shortcut of Condition State, as a kind of "Property Class". I remember that we intended to discuss this, but did not assign HW. Could you make a graphic representation of the examples below, together with the relevant super classes and super properties? Cheers, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E14_Condition_Assessment"; linkTarget="_blank" link="http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E14_Condition_Assessment"; en="Condition Assessment" de="Zustandsfeststellung" el="Εκτίμηση Κατάστασης" fr="Évaluation d’état matériel" pt="Avaliação do Estado Material" ru="Оценка Состояния" zh="状态评估" id="MBDcpSNK8H0tc5OoJNux-1"> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E55_Type"; linkTarget="_blank" link="http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E55_Type"; en="Type" de="Typus" el="Τύπος" fr="Type" pt="Tipo" ru="Тип" zh="类型" id="MBDcpSNK8H0tc5OoJNux-6"> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E22_Human-Made_Object"; linkTarget="_blank" link="http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/E22_Human-Made_Object"; en="Human-Made Object" fr="Objet élaboré par l’humain" id="MBDcpSNK8H0tc5OoJNux-8"> http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/P34_concerned"; linkTarget="_blank" link="http://www.cidoc-crm.org/cidoc-crm/P34_concerned"; en="concerned (was assessed by)" de="betraf (wurde beurteilt durch)" el="αφορούσε σε (εκτιμήθηκε από)" fr="a porté sur (a été évalué par)" pt="interessada (foi avaliada por
[Crm-sig] New Issue, scope notes P40 P43
Dear All, The semantics of E16 had been modified in 7.1, but the cope notes of the properties P40 and P43 have not been adjusted. See the attached. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl AdjustingP40P43.docx Description: MS-Word 2007 document ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Conflicting use of P177
Dear Thanasi, Nothing wrong with your work! The point is, that the use of P177 is ambiguous for E14 , which points to a condition state. The SIG needs to define for E14 how P177 relates to the type of Condition State and/or if we regard P177 as the type of a shortcut of Condition State, as a kind of "Property Class". I remember that we intended to discuss this, but did not assign HW. Could you make a graphic representation of the examples below, together with the relevant super classes and super properties? Cheers, Martin On 23/7/2024 1:41 π.μ., Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Sorry for responding to this late - these are examples I produced from the St. Catherine's condition survey and, as always, happy to improve them if needed. I can see that work is needed in FOL, but, Martin, can you explain a bit more what you mean by inconsistencies in the examples? And what needs to be defined for E14 Condition Assessment? You mean, the type of property assigned? Thank you. Thanasis On 11/07/2024 10:47, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, As to be expected, examination of related examples reveals problems: "P177 assigned property of type" has not been harmonized with the subclasses of E13 Attribute assignment. For E15 Identifier Assignment, E17 Type Assignment, E16 Measurement, this is straightforward, but needs a formulation in FOL and scope notes. For E14 Condition Assessment, this still needs to be defined. The collected examples reveal inconsistent use: the condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 by Nicholas Pickwoad in November 2003 (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /assigned property of type/ damage (E55.) [‘damage’ refers to a property, external to the CIDOC CRM, which connects an instance of a physical thing like an endband core (E22) to the type of damage (E55) it shows] (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /concerned/ the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E22). (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /has identified/ the condition state in November 2003 (E3). [which /has type/ broken (E55)] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) the condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 by Nicholas Pickwoad in November 2003 (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /assigned property of type/ quality (E55). [‘quality’ refers to a property, external to the CIDOC CRM, which connects an instance of a physical thing like a book cover (E22) to its quality (E55)] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /concerned/ the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E22). (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /has identified/ the condition state in November 2003 (E3). [which /has type/ fine (E55)] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) Further, these constitute better examples of Condition State than the fictitious ones currently used. Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Χωρίς ιούς.www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Αυτό το email έχει ελεγχθεί για ιούς από το Avast antivirus. www.avast.com ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: Related examples
Hi Thanasi, Yes, n-n links are very expensive. I wonder, if an ID per pattern would be more effective, and could be maintained automatically. Best, Martin On 15/7/2024 12:41 π.μ., Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Martin, all, I think there may be a way to cross-link in the document to specific items of bulleted lists, i.e. if we decide to use "see also". It will be quite a bit of work and likely prone to errors. I think we need to brainstorm about this. All the best, Thanasis On 11/07/2024 10:17, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, There has been invested a great lot of work in related examples, but they are not linked, such as: the examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 by Nicholas Pickwoad in November 2003 (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) assigned attribute to MS Sinai Greek 418 (E22). (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) /assigned/ unsupported (E55.) (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) /assigned property of type/ binding structure type (E55). [‘binding structure type’ refers to a property, external to the CIDOC CRM, which connects a book (E22) to the type of its binding structure (E55)] (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) I propose to discuss and decide quickly an effective method for connecting these examples. Graphics would also be nice, but a "see also" would already be of huge help. Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Χωρίς ιούς.www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Αυτό το email έχει ελεγχθεί για ιούς από το Avast antivirus. www.avast.com ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: Related examples
On 11/7/2024 1:41 μ.μ., George Bruseker wrote: Dear Martin, If we went in the direction of graphic example, perhaps there could be a referenced draw.io <http://draw.io> graph which could be hosted on the site. The danger of course is link staleness etc. However, ignoring that problem, probably more like an illustration page like the current 'functional overview' graphs. but for particular use case examples. So again IF we did such a thing then maybe we would want to pick out a format of the things that should go into such an example page ( a la functional overview diagrams). Yes, sure, and links should be automatically maintained in some way. best, Martin All best, George On Thu, Jul 11, 2024 at 12:32 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, There has been invested a great lot of work in related examples, but they are not linked, such as: the examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 by Nicholas Pickwoad in November 2003 (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) assigned attribute to MS Sinai Greek 418 (E22). (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) /assigned/ unsupported (E55.) (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) /assigned property of type/ binding structure type (E55). [‘binding structure type’ refers to a property, external to the CIDOC CRM, which connects a book (E22) to the type of its binding structure (E55)] (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) I propose to discuss and decide quickly an effective method for connecting these examples. Graphics would also be nice, but a "see also" would already be of huge help. Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Χωρίς ιούς.www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> <#m_-3873909119046156169_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Αυτό το email έχει ελεγχθεί για ιούς από το Avast antivirus. www.avast.com___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Conflicting use of P177
Dear All, As to be expected, examination of related examples reveals problems: "P177 assigned property of type" has not been harmonized with the subclasses of E13 Attribute assignment. For E15 Identifier Assignment, E17 Type Assignment, E16 Measurement, this is straightforward, but needs a formulation in FOL and scope notes. For E14 Condition Assessment, this still needs to be defined. The collected examples reveal inconsistent use: the condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 by Nicholas Pickwoad in November 2003 (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /assigned property of type/ damage (E55.) [‘damage’ refers to a property, external to the CIDOC CRM, which connects an instance of a physical thing like an endband core (E22) to the type of damage (E55) it shows] (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /concerned/ the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E22). (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the endband cores of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /has identified/ the condition state in November 2003 (E3). [which /has type/ broken (E55)] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) the condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 by Nicholas Pickwoad in November 2003 (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /assigned property of type/ quality (E55). [‘quality’ refers to a property, external to the CIDOC CRM, which connects an instance of a physical thing like a book cover (E22) to its quality (E55)] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /concerned/ the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E22). (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The condition assessment of the cover of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E14) /has identified/ the condition state in November 2003 (E3). [which /has type/ fine (E55)] (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) Further, these constitute better examples of Condition State than the fictitious ones currently used. Best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Αυτό το email έχει ελεγχθεί για ιούς από το Avast antivirus. www.avast.com___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue: Related examples
Dear All, There has been invested a great lot of work in related examples, but they are not linked, such as: the examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 by Nicholas Pickwoad in November 2003 (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) assigned attribute to MS Sinai Greek 418 (E22). (Honey and Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) /assigned/ unsupported (E55.) (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) The examination of MS Sinai Greek 418 (E13) /assigned property of type/ binding structure type (E55). [‘binding structure type’ refers to a property, external to the CIDOC CRM, which connects a book (E22) to the type of its binding structure (E55)] (Honey & Pickwoad, 2010) I propose to discuss and decide quickly an effective method for connecting these examples. Graphics would also be nice, but a "see also" would already be of huge help. Best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Αυτό το email έχει ελεγχθεί για ιούς από το Avast antivirus. www.avast.com___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] FORTH and the CIDOC CRM, update
Dear All, Since the conception of the CIDOC CRM, FORTH as an institution is supporting the maintenance of the CIDOC CRM actively by providing labour, IT infrastructure and travel budgets, as a considerable voluntary offer to ICOM-CIDOC. Technically responsible for supporting the CIDOC CRM within FORTH is the staff of the Center for Cultural Informatics, an activity of FORTH's Institute of Computer Science. The Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) is a public, non-profit research institution of private law of Greece, and one of its largest research institutions. FORTH reports to the General Secretariat for Research and Innovation of the Ministry of Development. The main income of FORTH constitute competitive international, national and private research grants. The support for the maintenance of the CIDOC CRM by FORTH has typically been financed by research grants managed by the Center for Cultural Informatics that support and allow for justifying such expenses. In 2023, the Board of Directors of FORTH decided to support the maintenance of the CIDOC CRM in addition as general FORTH internal project for at least another two years to safeguard the activity against possible financial shortcomings with the current practice. As chair of CRM-SIG, I therefore suggested in 2023 the SIG to consider models by which other organizations and enterprises, which benefit economically from the CRM, may also contribute with some resources to the maintenance of the CIDOC CRM, in their own interest in the longevity of the standard and as a sort of moral obligation, receiving however no practical proposals so far. This should not have been interpreted as an intention by FORTH to discontinue its support. I am glad to announce that the Board of Directors of FORTH has recently confirmed its generous continued interest and ability of FORTH in the maintenance of the CIDOC Conceptual Reference model in long terms. Financially, this is currently secured for at least another five years. In addition, there is permanent staff of the Center for Cultural Informatics that engages in the maintenance of the CIDOC CRM explicitly as part of their job description. Looking forward to many more years of fruitful and pleasant collaboration between FORTH and CIDOC, Martin Doerr chair, CRM-SIG -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 490 -- E VOTE
YES! On 5/10/2024 1:51 PM, Eleni Tsouloucha wrote: Dear all, During our last meeting, we didn't get to review Martin's HW <https://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/58%20SIG%20-%20Issue%20490.%20how%20to%20model%20a%20file.docx>for issue *490 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-490-how-to-model-a-file>*. It was decided that Martin's proposal to introduce property /Pxxx has complete copy (is complete copy of)/ would be put to an e-vote instead. Please indicate your agreement or provide feedback by May 20. All the best, -- Eleni Tsouloucha Philologist - MA Linguistics & Language Technologies Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory - Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) Address: N. Plastira 100, GR-70013 Heraklion, Grece email: tsoulo...@isc.forth.gr, eleni.crm@gmail.com Tel: +30 2810391488 -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] [NEW ISSUE]: missing inverse labels P81, P82, P171, P172
Dear All, I'd like to explain: The missing inverse label is not a statement that "the inverse property is not defined". The position of the CRM, based on FOL is that "inverse properties" are an artefact of RDF encoding. All properties are bidirectional, and per default directed. So, "we should define inverse properties" is not the real question. It is only if the inverse label is of any use in a semantic graph or query as starting point. best, Martin On 2/8/2024 4:13 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Eleni, I'd suggest not to assign inverse labels, nevertheless. These primitive values do not constitute particular objects of discourse, albeit that there is a naming aspect. P170, P168, P169 are different, they are epistemic constructs. Anyway, to be discussed! Best, Martin On 2/8/2024 10:10 AM, Eleni Tsouloucha via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, Since we made E61 isA E59 AND E41, it means that there can be inverse properties for /P81 ongoing throughout/ & /P82 at some time within/. Which is implicit in the FOL for /P170 defines time (time is defined by) --/see v7.1.2 <https://cidoc-crm.org/html/cidoc_crm_v7.1.2.html#P170> (Official (Base for initial ISO Submission) and v7.2.3// <https://cidoc-crm.org/Version/version-7.2.3>(draft, community version). In first-order logic: P170(x,y) ⇒ E61(x) P170(x,y) ⇒ E52(y) *P170(x, y) ⇒ P81i(x, y) ∧ P82i(x, y)* Incidentally, we have documented that *P170(x,y) ⇒ P81(y,x) ˄ P82(y,x) *(see issue**508 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-508-fol-for-p170>*, *Martin's post on 23 July 2020 specifically), which got translated into listing the inverse forms of P81/P82, without bothering to revisit the lack of inverse forms for respective properties. The same situation holds for /P171 at some place within/ and /P172 contains/ (whose ranges are set to E94 Space Primitive). Now that E94 isA E59 AND E41, we should define inverse properties for them (and these should have labels). Best, Eleni ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] New ISSUE: Quantifiers of P140,P141,P177
Dear Christian-Emil, I agree with all you write. The quantification should be (1,1:0,n) for all subproperties you have listed. Best, Martin On 3/19/2024 8:52 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore wrote: Dear Martin, I have read this issue a little late. I have no problem with your argumentation. There may be a side effect. P35: Quantification: many to many, necessary (1,n:0,n) For all x,y we have P37(x,y) ⇒P141(x,y) Since the quantification of P35 is (1,n:0,n), then it may exist P37(a,b) and P37(a,c) and b is not c. (if not the quantification should be (1,1:0,n). From the subproperty definition P37(a,b) ⇒ P141(a,b) and P37(a,c) ⇒ P141(a,c) so we can conclude that P141(a,b) and P141(a,c) which contradicts the proposed quantification (1,1:0,n) of P141. In general a subproperty cannot have a less restrictive quantification than its superproperty. If I am correct we have check the scopenotes of P34, P35, P37, P38, P40, P42 P140 assigned attribute to (was attributed by) Domain: E13Attribute Assignment Range:E1CRM Entity Superproperty of: E14 Condition Assessment. P34 concerned (was assessed by): E18Physical Thing [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] E16 Measurement. P39 measured (was measured by): E18Physical Thing [OK] E17 Type Assignment. P41 classified (was classified by): E1 CRM Entity [OK] P141 assigned (was assigned by) Domain: E13Attribute Assignment Range:E1CRM Entity Superproperty of: E14 Condition Assessment. P35 has identified (identified by): Ε3 Condition State [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] E15 Identifier Assignment. P37 assigned (was assigned by): E42 Identifier [ (0,n:0,n), not OK] E15 Identifier Assignment. P38 deassigned (was deassigned by): E42 Identifier [ (0,n:0,n), not OK] E16 Measurement. P40 observed dimension (was observed in): E54Dimension [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] E17 Type Assignment. P42 assigned (was assigned by): E55 Type [ (1,n:0,n), not OK] In all the scopepnotes (P34, P35, P37, P38, P40, P42 ) the instance of the range is in singular number. So the quantifications can be adjusted without problem. Best, Christian-Emil *From:* Crm-sig on behalf of Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* 24 January 2024 19:09 *To:* crm-sig *Subject:* [Crm-sig] New ISSUE: Quantifiers of P140,P141,P177 Dear All, I remember a discussion about the quantifiers of P140, P141, assigns attribute... As it stands now, they are both "many to many (0,n:0,n)". P177 assigned property of type, has "many to many, necessary (1,n:0,n)" Firstly, all must be necessary. you cannot assign a property type without a domain and range. Secondly, the scope notes of all these properties do use singular, "the": "This property associates an instance of E13 Attribute Assignment with the type of property or relation that this assignment maintains to hold between *the item* to which it assigns an attribute and *the attribute* itself" Thirdly, multiple values confuse which is which. I remember a discussion that, theoretically, if you have: a) one domain, one type, many ranges b) many domains, one type, one range c) one domain, many types, one range, The propositions are well defined. I assume that this discussion was never ended, nor such constraints be formulated in Logic. I doubt it can be in FOL, and is, for any user, utterly *confusing*. The quantifiers must be: "many to one, necessary (1,1:0,n)" Generalizing single property assigments for *ISSUE 602*, this *must *be resolved. best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] New Issue: Harmonizing CRMbase logically with CRMgeo
Dear All, In the course of updating CRMgeo to CRM 7.2.4, there is a logical problem to solve with P168, 169, 170, which define Declarative spaces and times, but CRMbase does not have these classes. Nevertheless, these 3 properties *are designed* in CRMbase not to be used for phenomenal spaces and times. Therefore I here propose to formulate this as FOL rules in CRMbase, so that no formal inconsistency will occur when using CRMgeo proper to declare the 3 properties to be restricted to instances of SP6 Declarative Place, SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume, SP10 Declarative Time-Span, or via subproperties of P168,P169,P170. Hence: *A) * P168(x,y) ⇒E53(x) P168(x,y) ⇒E94(y) *P168(x,y) ⇒P1i(x,y) * *P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E92(z) ⋀ P161(z,x) ⋀ (P169 (u,z) ] * Excluding the place to be a projection of a physical thing *P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E4(z) ⋀ P161(z,x)] * Excluding the place to be a projection of an instance of E4 Period *B)* P169(x,y) ⇒E95(x) P169(x,y) ⇒E92(y) P169(x,y) ⇒P1i(x,y) *P169(x,y) ⇒ **(¬∃z)[E18(z) **⋀ P196(y,z)] *Excluding STV to be defined by a physical thing *P169(x,y) ⇒ **¬ E4(y) * Excluding the STV to be an instance of E4 Period *C)* P170(x,y) ⇒E61(x) P170(x,y) ⇒E52(y) P170(x, y) ⇒P81i(x, y) ∧P82i(x, y) *P170(x,y) ⇒ **(¬∃z)[E2(z) **⋀ P4(z,y)] *Excluding an instance of Temporal Entity to happen *at* this Time-Span Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] New Issue, inverse: Harmonizing CRMgeo logically with CRMbase
Dear All, From the CRMgeo side, we have two choices: Either we declare Q10 defines place Domain: E94 <#_SP5_Geometric_Place> Space Primitive Range: SP6 <#_SP6_Declarative_Place> Declarative Place *to be suproperty of P168i,* Q14 defines time Domain: SP14 <#_E61_Time_Primitive_1> Time Expression *Now*: E61_Time_Primitive Range: SP10 <#_SP10_DeclarativeTime-Span> Declarative Time-Span *to be suproperty of P170,* Q16 defines spacetime volume Domain: SP12 <#_SP12_Spacetime_Volume> Spacetime Volume Expression *Now*: E95_Spacetime_Primitive Range: SP7 <#_SP7_Declarative_Spacetime> Declarative Spacetime Volume *to be suproperty of P169, OR: **P168(x,y) ⇒SP6(x) * (SP6_Declarative _Place) *P169(x,y) ⇒SP7(y) P170(x,y) **⇒SP10(y) *All the best, martin On 2/25/2024 8:40 PM, Martin Doerr wrote: Dear All, In the course of updating CRMgeo to CRM 7.2.4, there is a logical problem to solve with P168, 169, 170, which define Declarative spaces and times, but CRMbase does not have these classes. Nevertheless, these 3 properties *are designed* in CRMbase not to be used for phenomenal spaces and times. Therefore I here propose to formulate this as FOL rules in CRMbase, so that no formal inconsistency will occur when using CRMgeo proper to declare the 3 properties to be restricted to instances of SP6 Declarative Place, SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume, SP10 Declarative Time-Span, or via subproperties of P168,P169,P170. Hence: *A) * P168(x,y) ⇒E53(x) P168(x,y) ⇒E94(y) *P168(x,y) ⇒P1i(x,y) * *P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E92(z) ⋀ P161(z,x) ⋀ (P169 (u,z) ] * Excluding the place to be a projection of a physical thing *P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E4(z) ⋀ P161(z,x)] * Excluding the place to be a projection of an instance of E4 Period *B)* P169(x,y) ⇒E95(x) P169(x,y) ⇒E92(y) P169(x,y) ⇒P1i(x,y) *P169(x,y) ⇒ **(¬∃z)[E18(z) **⋀ P196(y,z)] *Excluding STV to be defined by a physical thing *P169(x,y) ⇒ **¬ E4(y) * Excluding the STV to be an instance of E4 Period *C)* P170(x,y) ⇒E61(x) P170(x,y) ⇒E52(y) P170(x, y) ⇒P81i(x, y) ∧P82i(x, y) *P170(x,y) ⇒ **(¬∃z)[E2(z) **⋀ P4(z,y)] *Excluding an instance of Temporal Entity to happen *at* this Time-Span Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue, inverse: Harmonizing CRMgeo logically with CRMbase
Dear All, From the CRMgeo side, we have two choices: Either we declare Q10 defines place Domain: E94 <#_SP5_Geometric_Place> Space Primitive Range: SP6 <#_SP6_Declarative_Place> Declarative Place *to be suproperty of P168i,* Q14 defines time Domain: SP14 <#_E61_Time_Primitive_1> Time Expression *Now*: E61_Time_Primitive Range: SP10 <#_SP10_DeclarativeTime-Span> Declarative Time-Span *to be suproperty of P170,* Q16 defines spacetime volume Domain: SP12 <#_SP12_Spacetime_Volume> Spacetime Volume Expression *Now*: E95_Spacetime_Primitive Range: SP7 <#_SP7_Declarative_Spacetime> Declarative Spacetime Volume *to be suproperty of P169, OR: **P168(x,y) ⇒SP6(x) * (SP6_Declarative _Place) *P169(x,y) ⇒SP7(y) P170(x,y) **⇒SP10(y) *All the best, martin On 2/25/2024 8:40 PM, Martin Doerr wrote: Dear All, In the course of updating CRMgeo to CRM 7.2.4, there is a logical problem to solve with P168, 169, 170, which define Declarative spaces and times, but CRMbase does not have these classes. Nevertheless, these 3 properties *are designed* in CRMbase not to be used for phenomenal spaces and times. Therefore I here propose to formulate this as FOL rules in CRMbase, so that no formal inconsistency will occur when using CRMgeo proper to declare the 3 properties to be restricted to instances of SP6 Declarative Place, SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume, SP10 Declarative Time-Span, or via subproperties of P168,P169,P170. Hence: *A) * P168(x,y) ⇒E53(x) P168(x,y) ⇒E94(y) *P168(x,y) ⇒P1i(x,y) * *P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E92(z) ⋀ P161(z,x) ⋀ (P169 (u,z) ] * Excluding the place to be a projection of a physical thing *P168(x,y) ⇒ (¬∃z) [E4(z) ⋀ P161(z,x)] * Excluding the place to be a projection of an instance of E4 Period *B)* P169(x,y) ⇒E95(x) P169(x,y) ⇒E92(y) P169(x,y) ⇒P1i(x,y) *P169(x,y) ⇒ **(¬∃z)[E18(z) **⋀ P196(y,z)] *Excluding STV to be defined by a physical thing *P169(x,y) ⇒ **¬ E4(y) * Excluding the STV to be an instance of E4 Period *C)* P170(x,y) ⇒E61(x) P170(x,y) ⇒E52(y) P170(x, y) ⇒P81i(x, y) ∧P82i(x, y) *P170(x,y) ⇒ **(¬∃z)[E2(z) **⋀ P4(z,y)] *Excluding an instance of Temporal Entity to happen *at* this Time-Span Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 657: new example for P32 used general technique
Very good! M On 2/18/2024 1:47 PM, Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, In addition to the HW being prepared for 657 to reformulate the scope note for P32, I am proposing a new example to replace the fictitious one: The endbanding of codex S.Ar.20 (E11) used general technique blanket-stitch-with-core as primary component (E55). (Boudalis, 2023) Works cited: Boudalis, G. (2023) On the edge: Endbands in the Bookibinging Traditions of the Eastern Mediterranean, Michigan: The Legacy Press, p.181 All the best, Thanasis ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework
Dear Thanasi, Eleni, It is not clear to me why this is a concern. Both full paths shortcut different properties, P7 and P167. So, both should be mentioned. Raising a property to E92 is a different issue, ins't it? My concerns, to be discussed, are if the falls within requires necessarily that both places are at rest. Best, Martin On 2/19/2024 9:56 AM, Eleni Tsouloucha via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, maybe reconsider this piece of HW given the concerns voiced by Thanasis? best E On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 5:23 PM Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: In version 7.2.3 (if I have the correct file in front of me) we have already added the following: "This property is a part of the fully developed path from E93 Presence through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within (contains) to E53 Place." This is the path from E93 Presence instead of E4 Period (both being subclasses of E92 Spacetime Volume). If it applies to both E4 and E93, should we push it a step up to E92 Spacetime Volume which actually owns P161 has spatial projection in the first place? All the best, Thanasis On 02/02/2024 14:15, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: > Accepted! > > But, it seems it should be: > > "This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly > within the extent of another instance of E53 Place, where both places > are defined in the same geometric system, i.e. they are at rest to each > other. > > It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any > relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. > > This property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 > /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial > projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place. > > This property is transitive and reflexive. > > in FOL: > > P89(x,y) ⇒(∃u) [E18(u) ⋀P157(x,u) ⋀P157(y,u)] > > Then we can simplify the FOL of P7, and add the above FOL to P121,122,189 > > Best, > > Martin > > > > On 2/2/2024 12:28 PM, Stephen Stead wrote: >> >> The “However, ” implies that this is an exception to the statement “It >> addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship >> between things or phenomena occupying these places.”, which it is not. >> >> I would suggest that this is removed: so the addition reads:- >> >> This property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 >> /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial >> projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, where both >> places are defined in the same geometric system. >> >> Stephen Stead >> >> Mob: +44 (0)7802 755 013 >> >> ste...@paveprime.com >> >> *From:*Crm-sig *On Behalf Of *Martin >> Doerr via Crm-sig >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 1, 2024 7:05 PM >> *To:* crm-sig >> *Subject:* [Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework >> >> Dear all, >> >> I suggest the following addition to the scope note of P89, in yellow: >> >> >> P89 falls within (contains) >> >> Domain: >> >> E53 <#_toc8104> Place >> >> Range: >> >> E53 <#_toc8104> Place >> >> Quantification: >> >> many to many, necessary, dependent (1,n:0,n) >> >> Scope note: >> >> This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly >> within the extent of another instance of E53 Place. >> >> It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any >> relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. >> >> However, this property is also part of the fully developed path >> implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 >> has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, >> where both places are defined in the same geometric system. >> >> This property is transitive and reflexive. >> >> Examples: >> >> The area covered by the World Heritage Site of Stonehenge (E53) /falls >> within/ the area of Salisbury Plain (E53). (Pryor, 2016) >> >> In first-order logic: >> >> P89(x,y) ⇒E53(x) >> >>
Re: [Crm-sig] [NEW ISSUE]: missing inverse labels P81, P82, P171, P172
Dear Eleni, I'd suggest not to assign inverse labels, nevertheless. These primitive values do not constitute particular objects of discourse, albeit that there is a naming aspect. P170, P168, P169 are different, they are epistemic constructs. Anyway, to be discussed! Best, Martin On 2/8/2024 10:10 AM, Eleni Tsouloucha via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, Since we made E61 isA E59 AND E41, it means that there can be inverse properties for /P81 ongoing throughout/ & /P82 at some time within/. Which is implicit in the FOL for /P170 defines time (time is defined by) --/see v7.1.2 <https://cidoc-crm.org/html/cidoc_crm_v7.1.2.html#P170> (Official (Base for initial ISO Submission) and v7.2.3// <https://cidoc-crm.org/Version/version-7.2.3>(draft, community version). In first-order logic: P170(x,y) ⇒ E61(x) P170(x,y) ⇒ E52(y) *P170(x, y) ⇒ P81i(x, y) ∧ P82i(x, y)* Incidentally, we have documented that *P170(x,y) ⇒ P81(y,x) ˄ P82(y,x) *(see issue**508 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-508-fol-for-p170>*, *Martin's post on 23 July 2020 specifically), which got translated into listing the inverse forms of P81/P82, without bothering to revisit the lack of inverse forms for respective properties. The same situation holds for /P171 at some place within/ and /P172 contains/ (whose ranges are set to E94 Space Primitive). Now that E94 isA E59 AND E41, we should define inverse properties for them (and these should have labels). Best, Eleni ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework
Dear All, Alternatively, we can assume that both places are not completely at rest to each other, but that the geometric relation holds for all times, for example, a boat swimming in a lake will be for all times a place for people in it, which falls within the lake boundaries. In that case, both places must fulfill the same relation in their geometric reference systems at any time these places exist together. Existence of a place means that there exists at least one and the same physical thing it is always at rest to. At a particular instance in time, all extents in different geometric reference systems can be mapped (projected) to each other, with the precision the origin of the systems is known. This mapping would be the base for comparing two places moving relative to each other. I remember we discussed that, but never spelled out. Best, Martin On 2/2/2024 4:15 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Accepted! But, it seems it should be: "This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly within the extent of another instance of E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system, i.e. they are at rest to each other. It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. This property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place. This property is transitive and reflexive. in FOL: P89(x,y) ⇒(∃u) [E18(u) ⋀P157(x,u) ⋀P157(y,u)] Then we can simplify the FOL of P7, and add the above FOL to P121,122,189 Best, Martin On 2/2/2024 12:28 PM, Stephen Stead wrote: The “However, ” implies that this is an exception to the statement “It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places.”, which it is not. I would suggest that this is removed: so the addition reads:- This property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system. Stephen Stead Mob: +44 (0)7802 755 013 ste...@paveprime.com *From:*Crm-sig *On Behalf Of *Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* Thursday, February 1, 2024 7:05 PM *To:* crm-sig *Subject:* [Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework Dear all, I suggest the following addition to the scope note of P89, in yellow: P89 falls within (contains) Domain: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Range: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Quantification: many to many, necessary, dependent (1,n:0,n) Scope note: This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly within the extent of another instance of E53 Place. It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. However, this property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system. This property is transitive and reflexive. Examples: The area covered by the World Heritage Site of Stonehenge (E53) /falls within/ the area of Salisbury Plain (E53). (Pryor, 2016) In first-order logic: P89(x,y) ⇒E53(x) P89(x,y) ⇒E53(y) [P89(x,y) ∧P89(y,z)] ⇒ P89(x,z) P89(x,x) -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework
Accepted! But, it seems it should be: "This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly within the extent of another instance of E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system, i.e. they are at rest to each other. It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. This property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place. This property is transitive and reflexive. in FOL: P89(x,y) ⇒(∃u) [E18(u) ⋀P157(x,u) ⋀P157(y,u)] Then we can simplify the FOL of P7, and add the above FOL to P121,122,189 Best, Martin On 2/2/2024 12:28 PM, Stephen Stead wrote: The “However, ” implies that this is an exception to the statement “It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places.”, which it is not. I would suggest that this is removed: so the addition reads:- This property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system. Stephen Stead Mob: +44 (0)7802 755 013 ste...@paveprime.com *From:*Crm-sig *On Behalf Of *Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* Thursday, February 1, 2024 7:05 PM *To:* crm-sig *Subject:* [Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework Dear all, I suggest the following addition to the scope note of P89, in yellow: P89 falls within (contains) Domain: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Range: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Quantification: many to many, necessary, dependent (1,n:0,n) Scope note: This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly within the extent of another instance of E53 Place. It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. However, this property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system. This property is transitive and reflexive. Examples: The area covered by the World Heritage Site of Stonehenge (E53) /falls within/ the area of Salisbury Plain (E53). (Pryor, 2016) In first-order logic: P89(x,y) ⇒E53(x) P89(x,y) ⇒E53(y) [P89(x,y) ∧P89(y,z)] ⇒ P89(x,z) P89(x,x) -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework,
Dear All, We just observed that the FOL statements of P89 should also contain the formulation that both places need to be at rest to each other (i.e., fall into the same geometric system). This needs to be checked for all place to place relations. On 2/1/2024 9:04 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, I suggest the following addition to the scope note of P89, in yellow: P89 falls within (contains) Domain: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Range: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Quantification: many to many, necessary, dependent (1,n:0,n) Scope note: This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly within the extent of another instance of E53 Place. It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. However, this property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system. This property is transitive and reflexive. Examples: The area covered by the World Heritage Site of Stonehenge (E53) /falls within/ the area of Salisbury Plain (E53). (Pryor, 2016) In first-order logic: P89(x,y) ⇒E53(x) P89(x,y) ⇒E53(y) [P89(x,y) ∧P89(y,z)] ⇒ P89(x,z) P89(x,x) -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue 656 Homework
Dear all, I suggest the following addition to the scope note of P89, in yellow: P89 falls within (contains) Domain: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Range: E53 <#_toc8104> Place Quantification: many to many, necessary, dependent (1,n:0,n) Scope note: This property identifies an instance of E53 Place that falls wholly within the extent of another instance of E53 Place. It addresses spatial containment only and does not imply any relationship between things or phenomena occupying these places. However, this property is also part of the fully developed path implied by P7 /took place at (witnessed), /from E4 Period through P161 has spatial projection, E53 Place, P89 falls within to E53 Place, where both places are defined in the same geometric system. This property is transitive and reflexive. Examples: The area covered by the World Heritage Site of Stonehenge (E53) /falls within/ the area of Salisbury Plain (E53). (Pryor, 2016) In first-order logic: P89(x,y) ⇒E53(x) P89(x,y) ⇒E53(y) [P89(x,y) ∧P89(y,z)] ⇒ P89(x,z) P89(x,x) -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] New ISSUE: Quantifiers of P140,P141,P177
Dear All, I remember a discussion about the quantifiers of P140, P141, assigns attribute... As it stands now, they are both "many to many (0,n:0,n)". P177 assigned property of type, has "many to many, necessary (1,n:0,n)" Firstly, all must be necessary. you cannot assign a property type without a domain and range. Secondly, the scope notes of all these properties do use singular, "the": "This property associates an instance of E13 Attribute Assignment with the type of property or relation that this assignment maintains to hold between *the item* to which it assigns an attribute and *the attribute* itself" Thirdly, multiple values confuse which is which. I remember a discussion that, theoretically, if you have: a) one domain, one type, many ranges b) many domains, one type, one range c) one domain, many types, one range, The propositions are well defined. I assume that this discussion was never ended, nor such constraints be formulated in Logic. I doubt it can be in FOL, and is, for any user, utterly *confusing*. The quantifiers must be: "many to one, necessary (1,1:0,n)" Generalizing single property assigments for *ISSUE 602*, this *must *be resolved. best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Example for propositional objects
Dear George, Yes, I am very much aware of what you are describing and completely agree. 🙂I am right now looking for the original text. The text itself in Bekker's edition constitutes a Symbolic Object with propositional meaning, an Expression in the sense of FRBR. The search for precision is one aspect of what we do. The other aspect is accepting a certain fuzziness. The class E89 Propositional Object was introduced to capture the sense of FRBR Work, which, /in one interpretation/, constitutes an abstraction of meaning from the symbolic form, in particular from translations. As "knowledge engineer" I just neutrally observe, that sufficient people support the idea of some sort of preservation of meaning across translations, and others vehemently oppose. In the christian theological background, authorized translations are regarded as "the Word of God", i.e., transferring an even identical and in any case comprehensible meaning, which, within this tradition, must not be questioned. Medieval theological and philosophical tradition was widely using Aristotle in Latin translation without questioning the essential transfer of meaning by the Latin text. We need also not forget that early Latin (and Arabic) translators were much closer to the common senses of the ancient Greek world. As such, our ability today approximating the Greek original meaning from its linguistic expression only may not necessarily be superior to consulting also relevant translations. As such, my position about the preservation of meaning across translations is an observational one. I assume you agree, that undeniably scholars around the world cite such texts in translated form, and refer via Bekker identifiers in their citations, often without referring to the translator at all (regarded as "editor" and not "author" as I just read in a scholarly text !), expressing that they mean the intended meaning of the corresponding original, approximated by the translation provided. Since the CRM project is not about absolute precision, but about "minimal ontological commitment" in the sense of Thomas Gruber, for the purpose of /information integration/, rather than resolution, I maintain that we need to model two different senses: A) the actual intended meaning, which is over thousands of years more and more approximated by scholarly commentaries, and B) the minimal common or approximate meaning, as rendered by several good translations. I would model A) as instance of Information Object, as it gives priority to the original wording, implicitly Propositional Object as intended by the author, as you correctly stress in your message below, and B) as E89 Propositional Object only, as E89 is about meaning possibly abstract from symbolic form. The latter sense should be expressed in the example. I propose to talk about the approximate meaning of Met.Г 4.3,1005b 19-20, and add a comment with translations in 3 languages and the original. I currently have a German and two English ones (below) at hand: “the same thing cannot at the same time belong and also not belong to the same thing and in the same respect” "It is impossible for the same attribute at once to belong and not to belong [20] to the same thing and in the same relation; (Met.Г 4.3,1005b19-20) Thus stated, users can make up their own mind about the common meaning in this example, isn't it?🙂 Would that find your agreement? Best, Martin On 1/10/2024 8:30 AM, George Bruseker wrote: Dear Martin, As a scholar of ancient philosophy, I do love Bekker numbers, but I am curious why they would be an example of propositional object. They are a reference to a particular chunk of text in the original Greek as setup in the Bekker edition. As such, I think as a scholar using ancient texts, I use it to locate the original Information Object upon which an interpretation (formulation of the proposition(s) that we think thinker X was making) is based. The exact propositional content of that information object is usually the subject of debate rather than the object of reference. Did Aristotle mean X or Y in passage 99a of the Posterior Analytics, is the usual topic of conversation. If we knew the exact propositional content, we'd be golden, but usually that is the very topic we want to endlessly swirl around and the Bekker number is the pointer for people who can read ancient Greek in order to be able to find the original passage, read it, translate it and cogitate on what was really meant there (the propositions encoded). But perhaps you have another use in mind? Best, George On Sat, Jan 6, 2024 at 7:25 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, I suggest to create an example using Bekker numbers. They constitute excellent examples of identifiers for propositional content. See https://guides.library.duq.edu/c.php?g=1
[Crm-sig] Example for propositional objects
Dear All, I suggest to create an example using Bekker numbers. They constitute excellent examples of identifiers for propositional content. See https://guides.library.duq.edu/c.php?g=1030408&p=7468217 -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] New Issue: link related examples
On 12/13/2023 4:27 PM, Stephen Stead wrote: I think that this is a very good signpost. The only possible improvement I can see would need us to number all the examples so we can point to exactly which example is being referred to. Not sure that this is worth the effort? Well, I'd say no, someone who cannot spot the matching example, will hardly understand the CRM, isn't it😉? But some examples, such as the coordinates of Kastoria, have a didactic purpose that is rather opaque: The geometric center "of gravity" of the city is in the lake, rather than the built parts. The examples show that centroids cannot be compared automatically, because they are different in various resources, and there is no concept of the size of the feature to infer that the deviation is smaller than the feature size. In contrast, bounding boxes could automatically be compared for overlap or inclusion. The current city further covers completely previous up to the Roman settlement, and was continuously inhabited. Best, Marin Rgds SdS Stephen Stead Mob: +44 (0)7802 755 013 ste...@paveprime.com *From:*Crm-sig *On Behalf Of *Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* Wednesday, December 13, 2023 1:12 PM *To:* crm-sig *Subject:* [Crm-sig] New Issue: link related examples Dear All, CRM-SIG put a lot of effort in creating related examples for properties of the same class: For instance, P145: The implementation of the treaty regulating the termination of Greenland membership in EU between EU, Denmark and Greenland 1st February 1985 (E86) separated Greenland (E74). continues with P146 The implementation of the treaty regulating the termination of Greenland membership in EU between EU, Denmark and Greenland 1^st February 1985 (E86) /separated from/ EU (E74). Could be a comment. There are many such examples making together one "frame". It is very complicated to find these out by browsing! I propose "[example connects to P146]" and vice versa "[example connects to P145]" Best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] New Issue: link related examples
Dear All, CRM-SIG put a lot of effort in creating related examples for properties of the same class: For instance, P145: The implementation of the treaty regulating the termination of Greenland membership in EU between EU, Denmark and Greenland 1st February 1985 (E86) separated Greenland (E74). continues with P146 The implementation of the treaty regulating the termination of Greenland membership in EU between EU, Denmark and Greenland 1^st February 1985 (E86) /separated from/ EU (E74). Could be a comment. There are many such examples making together one "frame". It is very complicated to find these out by browsing! I propose "[example connects to P146]" and vice versa "[example connects to P145]" Best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Editorial Issue
Dear All, In the version 7.2.2 of the CIDOC CRM definition, we found the following editorial errors: In the Property Hierarchy, the inverse labels of: P160, P161, P180, P189 are still missing. To be corrected with those in the property declarations. The label of P133 in the Property Hierarchy and in the declaration of E92 is obsolete. To be corrected with that in the property declaration of P133. No decision needed. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue: Replace fictitious example
Dear All, Dariah Hook proposes a better example for P11: Delete: Maria (E21) /participated in /Photographing of Maria (E7). (fictitious) use instead: The Beatles (E74) /participated in /Harry Bensonphotographing the Beatles in Paris in 1964 (E7). Reference: Mitsui, Evan (16 November 2013). "Harry Benson's photos of the Beatles sparked career" <http://www.cbc.ca/news/arts/harry-benson-s-photos-of-the-beatles-sparked-career-1.2428648>. CBC News. Accessed 4 December 2023. Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] New Issue, missing part of type
Dear All, Indeed, I see two characteristic cases: A) broken surfaces: This is characteristic for statues, which miss heads or limbs, but also for architectural elements. The Roman statues without heads have characteristic places where to place the head. There is the reasoning that people hardly produced a statue with a broken-off arm in antiquity. These parts have not been discrete before being broken of. In other cases, there may be traces of mortar or other cement to the connected component, or damaged joining features, such as corrupted screw holes etc. B) If an object is found in a context of /use/, rather than in a /factory/, we can assume that it contained all essential components. I agree with Oeyvind that a part removal is not adequate for a deterioration happening when some objects down etc. Therefore I raised the issue, because there is no obvious workaround in CRM currently. The property should be used when there is enough plausibility that the object was complete. I do not assume someone went to a battle field with a chariot without wheels. Even if, the cases are so marginal they are irrelevant for the purpose of the CRM. See also our paper, in which we analyzed a lot of situations: DOI:10.1007/3-540-45581-7_31 <https://doi.org/10.1007/3-540-45581-7_31> Corpus ID: 46464138 A Metamodel for Part - Whole Relationships for Reasoning on Missing Parts and Reconstruction M. Doerr <https://www.semanticscholar.org/author/M.-Doerr/38587181>, D. Plexousakis <https://www.semanticscholar.org/author/D.-Plexousakis/1705358>, C. Bekiari <https://www.semanticscholar.org/author/C.-Bekiari/2861757> Published in International Conference on Conceptual Modeling <https://link.springer.com/conference/er er> ER 2001: Conceptual Modeling — ER 2001 <https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/3-540-45581-7> pp 412–425 Best, Martin On 10/17/2023 10:33 AM, athinak wrote: Dear Martin, maybe I misunderstood, but how can we explicitly know thw circumstances of leading to this state, described by the property? what I mean is, that this property seems to me related to the definition of situations and to inference (how can we assert the validity of missing parts? and what about the FOL? can it support it? It seems useful but isn't it a kind of inference? just a question or maybe I am missing something Athina On 2023-10-16 22:12, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, In the discussion about typed negative properties, I have the impression that a property: "misses part of type" may be utterly useful for finding archaeological object in a global search, such as the head or arms of a statue, characteristic elements of buildings etc. Admittedly, it poses the question where to stop the non-existence, and what missing parts would have a chance to be found. Would a part lost by accident be a part removal? Would that be an alternative way of documenting missing parts? Opinions? Best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] New Issue, missing part of type
Dear All, In the discussion about typed negative properties, I have the impression that a property: "misses part of type" may be utterly useful for finding archaeological object in a global search, such as the head or arms of a statue, characteristic elements of buildings etc. Admittedly, it poses the question where to stop the non-existence, and what missing parts would have a chance to be found. Would a part lost by accident be a part removal? Would that be an alternative way of documenting missing parts? Opinions? Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue 519, use of "preferred identifier" and "current permanent location"
Dear All, Since it is on tomorrow's agenda to deprecate or not "preferred identifier" and "current permanent location", I'd suggest an e-vote, if the meeting tends to deprecation, because basically the question remains if these are used or not. The latter is a question to a wider audience. Best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Fwd: Issue 576 (about ... entity of type)
Dear All, With respect to issue 576, a specific aboutness, I'd like to keep in mind (A) to keep the CRMbase small (B) fear that the variety in which "aboutness" may occur is even much greater than that between an image and what is on it. If we talk about texts, we do not encounter the specifics of a photo showing an unknown particular, but reference and coreference issues. Image (or voice) recognition is cognitively very distinct from text (symbolic form). We have, in general, no clear concept in which way the "about an unknown instance" may appear in the information object, if not in a Visual Item. (C) if the distinction is necessary, the referencing symbols can always be used to create an instance of "/what was meant/" at this spot of the information object, even without further data than the type (or whatever else the source stated). If any further reasoning about the dubious unknown item is necessary, such an explicit representation is even preferable for clarifying the possible identity. (D) In contrast however, significant amounts of texts refer characteristically to series of instances of a particular type, such as excavation records and many other archeological publications, geographic descriptions, secondary historical literare, etc. These are typically *NOT *represented in library catalogues, but very useful. However, I'd expect such series to be further characterized by other unity criteria, such as area, time people and others. This reminds me of the "referential collection" construct, we had discussed in the Europeana whitepaper. The need not be in a collection form. E.g. Evliya Celebi, in his famous "travel books" systematically refers to types of buildings in cities in the Ottoman sphere of influence. For these uses, "about instance of type" would again be under-specified. Therefore, I vote to resolve the issue with a recommendation to make an explicit URIs for isolated individuals, and further discuss "sets of references with common characteristics". Opinions? All the best, Martin On 8/18/2023 12:00 AM, Eleni Tsouloucha wrote: Dear all, Issue 576 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-576-about-...-entity-of-type>had been postponed by issues 610 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-610-deprecate-typed-properties-in-cidoc-crm>and 476 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-610-deprecate-typed-properties-in-cidoc-crm>, which have almost been resolved. Specifically, as far as 610 is concerned, the only thing it determined was to not deprecate P125 on the grounds that it's used. It spawned a number of issues (none of which settles the question that had been raised by George in 576) As far as 476 is concerned, it has practically been resolved (the property was kept in the 7.2.x branch on the grounds that it's been used, some minute details to be worked around). I think it's time to return to this issue, and determine whether the Pxxx about ___ of typeproperties suggested by George will be part of CRMbase, (N)TPs or will be dealt through more intricate workarounds Let me know what you think (and whether this could be discussed at the next SIG meeting), by 1 September. All the best, -- Eleni Tsouloucha Philologist - MA Linguistics & Language Technologies Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory - Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) Address: N. Plastira 100, GR-70013 Heraklion, Grece email: tsoulo...@isc.forth.gr, eleni.crm@gmail.com Tel: +30 2810391488 -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue 482 Vulnerability Belief
Dear All, Referring to: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M4nOyiRarQ2Qv4eVdmEqAxCx6WUe5WmtzLLos8r23mY/edit In principle, PR1, PR2 is incompatible with I2, because it replaces the Proposition Set by a reification (one property) construct. However, we are discussing in Issue 614 the transition from one property to a proposition set: I proposed for 614: "Finally, observing or assigning a single property (E13) can be described as a shortcut to a content model held to be true"Further, instead of PR1, we can define a "Vulnerability Proposition Set", prescribing general constraints about its content model, which includes the assignment of a etc. to this thing, following the pattern of "Jxx9 is about provenance of (has provenance claim): E70 Thing" from Belief Adoption. Constraints for content models of Proposition Sets are necessary in general, e.g., for defining an "observable situation", we need a list of possible properties. Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
On 10/5/2023 10:35 AM, George Bruseker wrote: Hi Martin, On this one continue to disagree. Yes the intention of the statement is to say that the instances of this class and their construction are meant to be formulated in data standards outside of CRM. Yes, and we provide interfaces to them. May be this phrase exactly is missing in the statement. Similarly, CRMgeo interfaces with the geo standards. The user of CRM absolutely should interpret this and understand it. Yes, but this does not require the CRM to define it, as RDF does not define the xsd values. The user of the CRM should interpret and understand a lot more than the CRM. "And the basics of ontology are that isA states that an instance of a subclass is also an instance of its superclass. If the superclass is meant to not be interpreted in CRM but be outside its world, then all of its subclasses should also not be interpreted within CRM." I said the opposite. Some primitive values are also *subclasses* of E41 Appellation. The superclass E41 is interpreted, but the respective Primitive Values under it, not further. would that make sense? Best, Martin Otherwise it would be like saying that some subclasses of temporal entity can not be, ontologically, temporal, or some subclasses of conceptual object can be, ontologically, other than conceptual. That would be a logical contradiction. Best, George On Wed, Oct 4, 2023 at 10:18 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: I think we have an interpretation problem here : "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse". This is not a statement what users of the CRM should consider when they use the CRM. The CRM does not intend to analyse the Geospatial Standards, but interfaces to them, and recommends their use. It does not deal with the way computers store real numbers, integers etc, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. Exactly as RDF does *not analyze xsd values*, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. The linking construct in RDF is the *Literal*. Similarly, CRM defines some highlevel classes, to be filled with formats others analyze and define. Analyzing a superclass does not mean to analyze and define the subclasses. If this sense of the statement is not clear enough, please reformulate adequately. Best, Martin On 10/3/2023 9:59 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a discourse is a problem On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig : > > Some additional questions: > > P189 and P171: > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > is a strong shortcut of > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive > > P189 and Q11: > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > P189 and P7: > E4 Period P7 too
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
I think we have an interpretation problem here : "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse". This is not a statement what users of the CRM should consider when they use the CRM. The CRM does not intend to analyse the Geospatial Standards, but interfaces to them, and recommends their use. It does not deal with the way computers store real numbers, integers etc, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. Exactly as RDF does *not analyze xsd values*, but interfaces to them and recommends their use. The linking construct in RDF is the *Literal*. Similarly, CRM defines some highlevel classes, to be filled with formats others analyze and define. Analyzing a superclass does not mean to analyze and define the subclasses. If this sense of the statement is not clear enough, please reformulate adequately. Best, Martin On 10/3/2023 9:59 AM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: The duality of primitives as being in and out of of the universe of a discourse is a problem On Tue, Oct 3, 2023 at 9:45 AM Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. > Am 01.10.2023 um 14:09 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig : > > Some additional questions: > > P189 and P171: > E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive > is a strong shortcut of > E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive > > Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? > > Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? > > Should there be versions of P171 for time and spacetime volumes? i.e. > E93 Spacetime Volume P10 falls within SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive > E52 Time-Span P86 falls within SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive > > P189 and Q11: > Does P189 indeed represent the same concept as Q11 in CRMgeo (v1.2)? For example, P189 is marked as reflexive (i.e. any place approximates itself), which is not possible for Q11 since its domain and range are not the same (Declarative Place approximates Place). > > P189 and P7: > E4 Period P7 took place at E53 Place > is an inverse shortcut of > E4 Period P161 has spatial projection E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place > P7(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y)] > (leaving out the "same reference system" requirements) > > Could one say that it becomes a strong shortcut if we add the "will to approximate" to the long version? i.e. > P7(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E53(z) ∧ P161(x,z) ∧ P89(z,y) ∧ P189i(z,y)] > > This is not far away from Rob's starting point in issue 439 (Approximate Dimensions). In this issue, Martin argues that P189 shouldn't be used when one can establish "falls within". But it seems to me that > P89 + P189i = "is approximated from the outside by" > would work very well together. > > Best, > Wolfgang > > >> Am 26.09.2023 um 11:25 schrieb Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig : >> >> I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for >> >> E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive >> >> E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive >> >> Best, >> Wolfgang >> >> >>> Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig : >>> >>> Dear All, >>> &
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear Wolfgang, Good question! Actually I am confronted with applications with many many points approximating places. Normally, we would say, use P171, P172, but DO NOT define an approximation by a POINT nearby, if you can do better. For legacy data, this is hard to enforce. I regard P171,P172 a fundamental good practice for CRMbase. No reason to repeat in CRMgeo anything that is (now!) in CRMbase, isn't it? Best, Martin On 10/1/2023 2:09 PM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Some additional questions: P189 and P171: E53 Place P171 at some place within E94 Space Primitive is a strong shortcut of E53 Place P89 falls within E53 Place P168 place is defined by E94 Space Primitive Should P171 and the proposed "is approximated by" shortcut be either both in CRMbase or both in CRMgeo? Would P171 be called "falls within" if it were introduced now? -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear Wolfgang, P189 is a superproperty of Q11, because it allows also phenomenal and mixed-type places to be used for approximation. Indeed, if E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, then it must be a Declarative Place. Hence, the shortcut can be the same of "E53 Place Q11i is approximated by: SP6 Declarative Place Q10i is defined by : SP5 Geometric Place Expression (= E94 Space Primitive)" I am not sure about the latest updated version of CRMgeo, because these are the constructs we harmonized later in CRMbase. Best, Martin On 9/26/2023 11:25 AM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: I assume that P189i is the same as Q11i in CRMgeo. Since the shortcut would be in CRMgeo anyway, would it make sense to define shortcuts for STVs and Time-Spans in CRMgeo as well? I.e. for E93 Spacetime Volume Q12i is approximated by SP7 Declarative Spacetime Volume P169i spacetime volume is defined by E95 Spacetime Primitive E52 Time-Span Q13i is approximated by SP10 Declarative Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive Best, Wolfgang Am 25.09.2023 um 11:20 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig : Dear All, I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. Best, Martin -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear Wolfgang, We define shortcuts only for the very frequent cases. I proposed a shortcut for approximating a place by a space primitive, because there are millions of such data. We do not propose shortcuts when we regard the documenation of the intermediate to be important for data integration, such as birth events, in contrast to "birth date" etc. The Space Primitive and all other primitives has an identity as a limited set of internationally used symbols by electronic data devices. The same geometric area can be described by many different space primitives. Therefore, it is cannot be Isa place, isn't it? We need the distinctions if notation and conversions become relevant. Different electronic devices support different value ranges. At some place, we need to be pragmatic. If we define an interface from an ontology of being in the real world, obeying to FOL, to typical database constructs, we necessarily encounter some special hybrids. For instance, 1/3 is a number, but does not exits in any primitive value😁. "are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse" does not mean we do not use them. Making E94 being a subclass of Appellation is a minimal statement about their role. Best, Martin On 10/3/2023 9:41 AM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Okay, last one. I had overlooked P82 "at some time within", and of course there is also P172 "contains" and P81 "ongoing throughout". The questions about P171 also apply to P172 / P81 / P82. So many possible shortcuts. Was there a reason for not making E94 Space Primitive a subclass of E53 Place? i.e. is it more on the side of "Period is a Spacetime Volume" or "Physical Thing defines but is not a Spacetime Volume"? The E59 scope note says "The instances of E59 Primitive Value and its subclasses are not considered elements of the universe of discourse the CIDOC CRM aims to define and analyse", but with E94 being a subclass of Appellation this might no longer be entirely accurate anyway. -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue: Completing the list of shortcuts in CRMbase
Agreed with all! Martin On 10/4/2023 12:42 PM, Schmidle, Wolfgang via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, P81 "ongoing throughout" and P82 "at some time within" are strong shortcuts, but not yet marked as such: E52 Time-Span P81 ongoing throughout E61 Time Primitive E52 Time-Span P86i contains E52 (Declarative) Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive P81(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E52(z) ∧ P86i(x,z) ∧ P170i(z,y)] E52 Time-Span P82 at some time within E61 Time Primitive E52 Time-Span P86 falls within E52 (Declarative) Time-Span P170i time is defined by E61 Time Primitive P82(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E52(z) ∧ P86(x,z) ∧ P170i(z,y)] Christian-Emil suggested opening an issue for completing the list of shortcuts in CRMbase, and to create a separate issue for the extensions whenever necessary. Best, Wolfgang ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 490: how to model a file [HW reminder]
Dear Daria, Thank you for this message! I think we all agree with your comment, but sadly, people seem to forget that more and more, being blinded by the flood of digitally available information. When I wrote: "Using an archival identifier for a paper copy, a removable digital medium or a URL for a file on a machine, in all cases the maintainers of the archive must guarantee that the identifier will be uniquely connected with the content. Otherwise, using a URL in a KB is simply inadequate." I did not want to open this discussion. For 500 years the disciples of Buddha relied on oral tradition by many people as being more reliable than the written form. Here an anlysis we did many years ago, with an analytical model: Petraki, M. (2005). Evaluating the reliability of system configurations for long term digital preservation <http://elocus.lib.uoc.gr/dlib/0/f/d/metadata-dlib-2005petraki_mer.tkl>. (pdf <https://publications.ics.forth.gr/_publications/Petraki.pdf>). But true preservation needs continuous control if the words are still understood (as in oral tradition), . This effort can be done only to a limited set of things, so we need a selection of what we want to remember. This requires an understanding of our cultures, do we have it? Isn't it? Best, Martin On 9/17/2023 9:42 AM, Гук Дарья Юрьевна wrote: Dear all, beeing out of discussion (too many reasons) I can add a metaphorical opinion. Poem about Gilgamesh is known after clay peaces, broken, copied and fixed with adds, and are able to read it only with interpreter. The same with any file - machine readable data, wich are fixed phisically and accessed only by computer interpretator and electricity. Be sure, most part of files even printed has no sence for human. Are you interected, where are cleaning lady's rag? Never! Although it's ethnography. Conclusion: files exist only for robots. Copies of video and sound as part of heritage are other thing presenting only specific part, but be sure, useless century years after creation. Maybe we need caracterize them by durance of use? With kind regards, Daria Hookk ---- *От:* Crm-sig от имени Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Отправлено:* 16 сентября 2023 г. 0:08:46 *Кому:* crm-sig *Тема:* [Crm-sig] Issue 490: how to model a file [HW reminder] Dear All, Let me summarize the discussion about issue 490 between George, Christian-Emil and me, to be discussed in the next meeting: "How to model a file" may be too vague. There are three aspects: A) What constructs are needed in the CRM ontologically to refer to the unique content of a file. B) What constructs are needed to refer unambiguously to a resource that changes content. This is modeled in CRMpem as "Volatile Dataset", and will not be discussed in this issue. C) How to connect in a knowledge base to a materialized content description. About A): We take a file (see also Persistent Dataset in CRMpem) in the sense of an immaterial E73 Information Object as a unique sequence of symbols that can be machine-encoded, regardless what groups of bits constitute one of the symbols of interest in this object. in the KB: The intended identity can be represented by a URI. We take a file in the sense of a material copy on a digital medium as a kind of "E24 Human-Made Feature", regardless whether it is on a *local* installation, in a "*cloud*" cluster of machines, a *LOCKSS* federation of copies, or on a *removable* carrier. in the KB: We may refer to the material copy by an *external URL*, or create an *E52 String *in a KB or within an RDF file, or use a platform-internal "*BLOB mechanism*" with whatever kind of identifier the platform refers to the local copy. Ontologically, it is irrelevant for the intended immaterial content if the copy is printed or scribbled on a paper or on a digital medium (or even a Morse sound track), as long as the material form is unambiguous wrt to the intended content. Both, paper and digital media can have errors. The CIDOC CRM v7.1 can be printed on paper and in principle be reentered manually into a file loss-free. in the KB: We may refer to a paper copy or a removable medium by an archival identifier. About C) Using an archival identifier for a paper copy, a removable digital medium or a URL for a file on a machine, in all cases the maintainers of the archive must guarantee that the identifier will be uniquely connected with the content. Otherwise, using a URL in a KB is simply inadequate. The DOI organisation forsees penalties for users that change the content of a URL associated with a DOI. There is no other solution. DOI *automatically redirects* from the DOI URI to the guaranteed URL. The property P190 has symbolic is used to connect a machine-encodable information object to a KB inte
[Crm-sig] PLease delete last message inGreek!
On 9/25/2023 12:28 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Here some corrections: -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Διπλωματική
Here some corrections: Zorbas: Musical Theme better E90 Symbolic Object, has type: "Musical Theme". Using P165 with E89 is an error. Irini, please check all properties you use if they are applicable😁! Two timespans for one event is forbidden: "many to one, necessary (1,1:0,n)", see definition! Please learn to understand these definitions😁. Please comment in your work: If you see the need to assign two time-spans to one event, you have mistaken two distinct events for one! This is foundational to the CRM. Create two events, and a relation between them. Delphos Gown: The place of the Moma: This is tricky! The P168 defines a point, the Moma building defines an area that can be observed. A place cannot be both. Please comment in your work: The space primitive defines a place, which is a point, which "P189 approximates" the place of the Moma Building. This could be simplified! (I just made a submission to crm-sig). Sword of Goujian: An event and a larger period cannot have the same time-span! The Event "falls within" the Period, is more precise than that the timespan of the event falls within that of the period. If you simply want to say the Event "falls within" the Period, you only assign a timespan to the Period, not the event, because this confuses your "provenance of knowledge", is this clear?😉, Otherwise, we discuss it in more detail, it is foundational to the CRM. Cheers, Martin On 9/25/2023 11:45 AM, Martin Doerr wrote: Καλησπέρα σας! Μήπως να κάνουμε άλλη τηλεδιάσκεψη τη Πέμπτη απόγευμα; Μάρτιν On 9/19/2023 3:03 PM, Sarantos Kapidakis wrote: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1v7vtvNBIijCN6B1vknfIJqgvXEMFZy3a?usp=sharing On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 02:45:29PM +0300, Martin Doerr wrote: Dear All, Please send me the link to the google page with the thesis text and examples! I have too many links, costs a lot of time to pick the right one out if it is not in the message😉 Best, Martin On 9/19/2023 12:29 PM, ΣΑΡΑΝΤΟΣ ΚΑΠΙΔΑΚΗΣ wrote: CIDOC examples Microsoft Teams meeting Join on your computer, mobile app or room device Click here to join the meeting <https://teams.microsoft.com/l/meetup-join/19%3ameeting_ZmY1N2QyN2ItMTU3Ny00MDhmLWEyMjAtMTVmYzBlOWQ5NWEy%40thread.v2/0?context=%7b%22Tid%22%3a%220c8943ee-c370-4bb3-ba51-321f406f32ec%22%2c%22Oid%22%3a%2248cb1937-c2dd-4336-9d51-c789c4698a66%22%7d> Meeting ID: 338 102 176 07 Passcode: mWagBT Download Teams <https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-teams/download-app> | Join on the web <https://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-teams/join-a-meeting> Learn More <https://aka.ms/JoinTeamsMeeting> | Meeting options <https://teams.microsoft.com/meetingOptions/?organizerId=48cb1937-c2dd-4336-9d51-c789c4698a66&tenantId=0c8943ee-c370-4bb3-ba51-321f406f32ec&threadId=19_meeting_ZmY1N2QyN2ItMTU3Ny00MDhmLWEyMjAtMTVmYzBlOWQ5NWEy@thread.v2&messageId=0&language=en-US> ΣΑΡΑΝΤΟΣ ΚΑΠΙΔΑΚΗΣ has invited you to Διπλωματική Title: Διπλωματική Location: Microsoft Teams Meeting When: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 7:00 PM – 8:30 PM Organizer: ΣΑΡΑΝΤΟΣ ΚΑΠΙΔΑΚΗΣ Description: CIDOC examples Microsoft Teams meeting Join on your computer, mobile app or room device Click here to join the meeting<https://teams.microsoft.com/l/meetup-join/19%3ameeting_ZmY1N2QyN2ItMTU3Ny00MDhmLWEyMjAtMTVmYzBlOWQ5NWEy%40thread.v2/0?context=%7b%22Tid%22%3a%220c8943ee-c370-4bb3-ba51-321f406f32ec%22%2c%22Oid%22%3a%2248cb1937-c2dd-4336-9d51-c789c4698a66%22%7d> Meeting ID: 338 102 176 07 Passcode: mWagBT Download Teams<https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-teams/download-app> | Join on the web<https://www.microsoft.com/microsoft-teams/join-a-meeting> Learn More<https://aka.ms/JoinTeamsMeeting> | Meeting options<https://teams.microsoft.com/meetingOptions/?organizerId=48cb1937-c2dd-4336-9d51-c789c4698a66&tenantId=0c8943ee-c370-4bb3-ba51-321f406f32ec&threadId=19_meeting_ZmY1N2QyN2ItMTU3Ny00MDhmLWEyMjAtMTVmYzBlOWQ5NWEy@thread.v2&messageId=0&language=en-US> Attendees: * ΣΠΥΡΙΔΑΚΗ ΕΙΡΗΝΗ * ΕΜΜΑΝΟΥΗΛ ΠΕΠΟΝΑΚΗΣ * mar...@ics.forth.gr -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www
[Crm-sig] Issue: P168i defines place shortcut
Dear All, I propose a shortcut in CRMgeo for E53 Place P189i is approximated by: E53 Place P168 place is defined by : E94 Space Primitive, for obvious practical reasons. It can have the same label. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Urgent: status of CRMinf, CRMsci, CRMtex, CRMdig, CRMba, CRMsoc
Dear Christian-Emil, To my understanding: CRMarchaeo: major consolidation with version 7.1 finished in version 2.0 (draft), declaration of new official version pending. CRMinf: major revision of "belief adoption" finished, interface with CRMtex finished (for reading material texts), reformatting to new standard templates and declaration of new official version pending. CRMsci: consolidation with version 7.1 finished, stable version 2.0, RDF available, working on observation and measurement of /relations between multiple objects/ (major competitive standards do not model such relations!). CRMtex: consolidation with version 7.1 finished, stable version 2.0. Interfacing with CRMinf for citation and content interpretation. CRMdig: review started, no news CRMpem (digital services): review started CRMinfluence is not yet proposed as a recommended extension. It is used in project work, and may become a potential part of CRMsoc or model on its own. Too early to report. Similarly, activity model, business provisions and obligations. CRMsoc: no news. consolidation of conflicting proposals pending. Please correct, enrich! Best, Martin On 9/23/2023 11:23 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, I am compiling the crm sig report for 2023 to be presented at the CIDOC AGM. In the 2022 report the status of the models where described as shown below. I need updated information by Monday evening. For the models I don't get any formation about, I will just put under the heading "Nothing new to report in 2023". Also, the draft model CRMInfluence is brand new and is just a draft. THe largest problem is the term breaking the rule about nice and short names. Best, Christian-Emil •General maintenance of –CRMarcheo(stable) –CRMinf(working on model for citations, interfacing with CRMtex) –CRMsci(working on aspects of observation) •Development of draft models –CRMtex •is widely consolidated, but still some scope notes, quantifiers etc. missing –CRMdig •reviewstarted –CRMba •interested teams wanted –CRMsoc What is the current status? Best, Christian-Emil ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] ISSUE 614: previously (Re: New Issue (if not hidden in 645): Content of Proposition Set)
and then A) Spell out the properties B) Adjust scope notes of I4, Observation etc. c) write the FOL connection between single property assignment and I4. Best, Martin On 9/10/2023 9:52 PM, Martin Doerr wrote: Dear All, I suggest to discuss the meaning of I4 Proposition Set, also related to issue 550, 510, 610 Two problems: A) the content model. If we follow the *logic of P190*, an I4 Proposition Set should be represented by a URI and a content model, which could be implemented as Named Graph in a KB. If we take an I4 as a Propositional Object, we would still need a symbolic form, which would need a representative copy (or P190). B) If we take an I4 as *fitting potentially the reality* under discourse, or only as a "possible world" being discussed, we need to clarify this role. Using I2 Belief, we relate the Proposition Set to be "true" or "false". We need to clarify, if "true" means "real", if the propositions can be related to reality. Similarly, we need to clarify, if an I11 Situation, as a special case, is meant to be discussed as statements only, or, if "observed", to *exist *in reality. We need to interpret the link to an observation is implying its reality or not. This is particularly interesting if we observe an area and state it does NOT contain X. C) We should clarify how we may refer to Proposition Sets with a human readable text, rather than a CRM compatible RDF model. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue 490: how to model a file [HW reminder]
safeguarding the maintainers against unexpected change of content under this URL. If more than one representative copy is referred to, the maintainers should control their mutual consistency at the symbolic level of the object intended to be represented. Examples: Definition of the CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model Version 7.1.1 (E73) /has representative copy/ The content under https://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/cidoc_crm_v.7.1.1_0.pdf (E25) on the sever of ICS-FORTH in Heraklion, Greece. [The edition 7.1.1 of the CIDOC CRM is registered under the public URI "https://doi.org/10.26225/FDZH-X261";, <https://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/cidoc_crm_v.7.1.1_0.pdf>which redirects users to the representative copy under https://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/cidoc_crm_v.7.1.1_0.pdf. <https://cidoc-crm.org/sites/default/files/cidoc_crm_v.7.1.1_0.pdf>ICS-FORTH as organisation is responsible for the persistence of this content under the respective URL to the DOI Foundation] - *Note *that the MS Word copy AND the pdf copy of the CRM is regarded to be copies of an *identical symbolic content, *the one we are interested in! A *vocabulary of symbolic levels *is still to be defined! IF an instance of *E73 Information Object *is referred to in a KB via *a (persistent) URL*, I would regard this as a compression of URI - Pxxx - URL. This practice would not allow for the distinction between bitwise identity or higher symbolic form. Partners of this homework please comment if I have missed something! Best, Martin Forwarded Message Subject: Re: Issue 490: how to model a file [HW reminder] Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 18:35:38 +0300 From: Martin Doerr To: thana...@softicon.co.uk CC: George Bruseker , Christian Emil Ore On 8/30/2023 5:17 PM, Athanasios Velios wrote: Dear Martin, Of course, I should have thought that the collective physical features in different machines can have one identity. It makes sense. I think part of the revised scope note might fit better in the RDF guidelines document, but I understand how it would work. Did you mean to copy George and CEO in your last email? YES!😁 All the best, Thanasis On 29/08/2023 16:55, Martin Doerr wrote: Dear Thanasi, Yes, we need to adjust the scope note. My opinion about cloud services is that: They use a finite set of dedicated machines at any time with distinct ownership. They have one master controller. There are no unregistered copies possibly lingering about. All that does not affect the materiality of the set of copies. They have an internal integrity algorithm. The Human-Made Feature is the total of tracks employed. This is fixed at any point in time algorithmically. We do not model the internals of the cloud service, nor do we have access to it. For us, ontologically, it does not matter how they work internally. They are prone to material failure altogether. Reduced likelihoods does not make it immaterial. It reminds me the RAID machine installation at the GNM in Nuremberg. They automatically saved on two machines, and gave a reliability of 20.000 years. After 6 months, an air condition failure caused the crash of the whole system. Would that make sense😁? *New proposal:* Pxxx has representative copy Domain: E90 Symbolic Object Range: E25 Human-Made Feature Subproperty of: E90 Symbolic Object. P128i is carried by (carries): E18 Physical Thing Quantification: many to many (0,n:0,n) Scope note: This property associates an instance of E90 Symbolic Object with a complete, identifying representation of its content in the form of a sufficiently readable instance of E25 Human-Made Feature, including, in particular, representations on electronic media, regardless whether they reside internally in clusters of electronic machines, such as in so-called cloud services, or on removable media. This property only applies to instances of E73 Information Object that can completely be represented by discrete symbols, in contrast to analogue information. The representing object may be more specific than the symbolic level defining the identity condition of the represented. This depends on the type of the information object represented. For instance, if a text has type "Sequence of Modern Greek characters and punctuation marks", it may be represented in a formatted file with particular fonts on a particular machine, meaning however only the sequence of Greek letters. Any additional analogue elements contained in the representing object will not regarded to be part of the represented. As another example, if the represented object has type "English words sequence", American English or British English spelling variants may be chosen to represent the English wor
[Crm-sig] Issue 635 (property quantifier mismatches) and P191
Dear All, Regarding as last item of issue 635 the property /P191 had duration:// / Issue 559 was resolved as: "In case the instance of S15 Observable Entity is more specifically an instance of E18 Physical Thing, using the property O12 has dimension (is dimension of) is equivalent to using the property P43 has dimension (is dimension of). In other words, using the one implies the other." Sadly, P43 has quantification"one to many, dependent (0,n:1,1)", but we use O12 now for relative dimensions between multiple things in CRMsci, AND we use Dimension in /P191 had duration (was duration of)/ from a Timespan, which is not an instance of E70 Thing, with quantification "one to one (1,1:1,1) ". Note that P191 is NOT a subproperty of P43, but E54 Dimension pertains to both. It appears to me that P43 should have quantification"many to many (0,n:0,n)" , and P191 should have quantification"one to one (1,1:0,1)" , but this leaves P43 without the important semantics of dependency. Taking relative dimensions into account, it should be clarified that an instance of E54 Dimension is dependent on the combination of references to it. This is a task for an FOL or so, isn't it? Otherwise, we would need to specialize E54 in CRMbase, not really nice. Opinions? Best, Martin Forwarded Message Subject:Issue 635 (property quantifier mismatches) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 00:00:00 +0300 From: Eleni Tsouloucha To: Wolfgang Schmidle , Martin Doerr CC: Chryssoula Bekiari Dear both, The correct property quantification for /P191 had duration/ has not been determined yet. Have you resolved this? If yes, should we call an evote or would you rather we discussed it at the SIG? Best, -- Eleni Tsouloucha Philologist - MA Linguistics & Language Technologies Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory - Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) Address: N. Plastira 100, GR-70013 Heraklion, Grece email: tsoulo...@isc.forth.gr, eleni.crm@gmail.com Tel: +30 2810391488 -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 579 (how to model the focus or view of an observation)
Dear Thanasi, all, I think modeling a view direction is an overspecialization. I now believe for purposes of information integration, the question is to describe an area covered by an observation. specific directions etc. should be placed in an extended description. The more general question to specify an observed area, as in archaeological surveys, needs to be modeled indeed. This is neither an observed situation, nor a measurement of dimensions. Also, we need to understand which kinds of observation pertain to areas (typically optical, radar). This should be discussed! Best, Martin On 8/18/2023 12:00 AM, Eleni Tsouloucha wrote: Dear Martin, all, According to the decision of the 53rd SIG meeting (May 2022), issue 579 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-579-new-issue-how-to-model-the-focus-or-view-of-an-observation>was on hold until we had resolved 583 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-583-how-to-assign-dimensions-to-relative-positions-to-distances-in-space-time-and-other>(theorizing about dimensions of spatiotemporal distances btw instances of S15 Observable Entity). Now that 583 is done and the new classes & properties have been introduced in CRMsci (V2.1), do we go back to this issue? Are you interested in reviving it in time for the next SIG meeting? If you don’t have anything to report by then but are still interested in pursuing this line of work it’s still OK, maybe we could freshen everyone’s memory and then ask for volunteers to work on it. -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] New Issue (if not hidden in 645): Content of Proposition Set
Dear All, I suggest to discuss the meaning of I4 Proposition Set, also related to issue 550, 510, 610 Two problems: A) the content model. If we follow the *logic of P190*, an I4 Proposition Set should be represented by a URI and a content model, which could be implemented as Named Graph in a KB. If we take an I4 as a Propositional Object, we would still need a symbolic form, which would need a representative copy (or P190). B) If we take an I4 as *fitting potentially the reality* under discourse, or only as a "possible world" being discussed, we need to clarify this role. Using I2 Belief, we relate the Proposition Set to be "true" or "false". We need to clarify, if "true" means "real", if the propositions can be related to reality. Similarly, we need to clarify, if an I11 Situation, as a special case, is meant to be discussed as statements only, or, if "observed", to *exist *in reality. We need to interpret the link to an observation is implying its reality or not. This is particularly interesting if we observe an area and state it does NOT contain X. C) We should clarify how we may refer to Proposition Sets with a human readable text, rather than a CRM compatible RDF model. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] HW issue 556
Dear All, Some years ago we analyzed place types from different gazetteers, with the focus on such phenomena with a relevantspatiotemporal evolution: I have made the following distinctions by abstracting from the Alexandria Gazetteer place types, according to the kind of phenomena that are responsible for their definition and identity and for avoiding possible polysemy of the same term/name. Similar place types appear in the TGN. Place types in Geonames should also be considered. An early version of place types from the INSPIRE standard appeared not to be as good. A)Distinct spaces defined by geomorphological forms (continents, islands, mountain ranges, water bodies, vulcanos) B)Distinct habitats defined by life form (kinds of vegetation etc.) C)Coherent, evolving human-maintained spaces (settlements, roads, areas formed by agriculture or other exploiation) D)Spaces defined by inhabitation/stay of a specific cultural group of people (town population, tribe, language group) E)Areas determined by execution of political power (Nation, country, administrative unit, protection zone) F)Possibly evolving areas defined by theoretical declaration motivated by scientific, social or political interests. Wheras A), F) may characterize just spacetime volumes, B) through E) may characterize E4 Periods in the narrower sense. It seems that only very few high-level abstractions are necessary to make a term like "Greece" or "Rome" unambiguous. Therefore the above may lead to a minimal vocabulary recommended by the CRM for E4 Period and Spacetime Volume I attach the Alexandria terms. Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl alexandria gazetteer.xlsx Description: MS-Excel 2007 spreadsheet ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] HW Issue 630: redraft the scope note of P38 deassigned
Dear All, Here my proposal: OLD: P38 deassigned (was deassigned by) Domain: E15 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc7601> Identifier Assignment Range: E42 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc8076> Identifier Subproperty of: E13 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc7561> Attribute Assignment. P141 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc11036> assigned (was assigned by): E1 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc7281> CRM Entity Quantification: many to many (0,n:0,n) Scope Note: This property records the identifier that was deassigned from an instance of E1 CRM Entity. De-assignment of an identifier may be necessary when an item is taken out of an inventory, a new numbering system is introduced or items are merged or split up. The same identifier may be deassigned on more than one occasion. Examples: The identifier assignment on 31st July 2001 of the silver cup OXCMS:2001.1.32 (E15) deassigned “232” (E42). (fictitious) NEW P38 deassigned (was deassigned by) Domain: E15 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc7601> Identifier Assignment Range: E42 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc8076> Identifier Subproperty of: E13 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc7561> Attribute Assignment. P141 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc11036> assigned (was assigned by): E1 <#m_2848461322383461192__toc7281> CRM Entity Quantification: many to many (0,n:0,n) Scope Note: This property associates an instance of E42 Identifier that was deassigned from an instance of E1 CRM Entity by an instance of E15 Identifier Assignment. De-assignment of an identifier means that the actor, typically an organisation, carrying out the respective instance of E15 Identifier Assignment, has decided no more to use the respective identifier for an item which has been in its possession or was referred to in a context under the actor’s control. Reasons to do so may be, besides others, when an item is taken out of an inventory, items are merged or split up in a collection, an object is acquired under reference to the identifier of the giving institution or a new numbering system is introduced. Depending on such cases, de-assignment may be associated with the assignment of a new identifier (P37 assigned (was assigned by)) in the same instance of E15 Identifier Assignment. The same identifier may be deassigned on more than one occasion. Examples: The identifier assignment on 31st July 2001 of the silver cup OXCMS:2001.1.32 (E15) deassigned “232” (E42). (fictitious) Improvements? Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 615 (scope note of E13 Attribute Assignment)
Dear All, I propose to *close* issue 615 by e-vote. The new text for E13 Attribute assignment has been approved already. Trailing an issue into another entity is not good practice, but to answer the question: *As a rule*, multiple properties of a superclass should not be specialized altogether by analogy. Properties are and must be specialized *if and* *only if* they convey a more specific meaning than the superproperty of the superclass in the context of the subclass. Obviously, there is nothing you can say about an entity that enables it to have an Identifier assigned and not only an Appellation. Conversely, there should exist at least one entity that, by its nature, cannot be assigned an identifier to. This rule, even though general KR, may be worthwhile to be documented as another *ISSUE*. We had more frequently cases in CRM extensions, were properties were not specialized but should have been. Best, Martin On 8/18/2023 12:00 AM, Eleni Tsouloucha wrote: Dear all, Back in Luxembourg, the SIG pondered on the lack of subproperty for P140 assigned attribute tothat is specific to E15 Identifier Assignment(unlike the situation with P141 assigned, for which there exists a subproperty that is particular to E15, namely P37 assigned) and did not conclude as to what had motivated this decision. At the time we had said that all relevant discussions would continue in the thread for issue 615 <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-615-scope-note-of-e13-attribute-assignment>, but we have not formally assigned anyone to do the HW. Would you be interested? If yes, is it something that you feel can be done in time for the next SIG meeting? Either way, please let me know by 1 September. All the best, -- Eleni Tsouloucha Philologist - MA Linguistics & Language Technologies Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory - Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) Address: N. Plastira 100, GR-70013 Heraklion, Grece email: tsoulo...@isc.forth.gr, eleni.crm@gmail.com Tel: +30 2810391488 -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] E-VOTE: LRMoo R10 is member of (has member)
YES! Martin On 7/13/2023 1:20 AM, Pat Riva via Crm-sig wrote: Hello all, I am calling for an e-vote relating to LRMoo. Please vote on the list by *July 26th*. Background: At the end of SIG meeting #55 in May 2023 in Heraklion, the LRMoo WG presented a sketch of a new approach to R10 after the proposal made at the meeting <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UlVMIea5BHoFd8SJGaTNUvC64YpyGFmyahRO0VBkT5U/edit> was considered insufficient. This was received with interest but there was not time to discuss a full proposal. *This e-vote is to approve the redefinition of R10, and the consequences on R67 (which was originally a subproperty of R10).* Please see the proposed new text in this Google doc (E-vote: R10 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yOHjkIo_FW1_x85zYNJbaOrGT3PRizjxcn4ZGPjLuQI/edit>). Thanks, Pat Pat Riva Interim University Librarian / Bibliothécaire en chef par intérim Concordia University / Université Concordia 1455 de Maisonneuve West, LB-331 Montréal, Québec H3G 1M8 Canada pat.r...@concordia.ca <mailto:pat.r...@concordia.ca> ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] CRM applications
Dear All, These excellent implementations have not become so widely known: Eero Hyvönen: *How to Create a National Cross-domain Ontology and Linked Data Infrastructure and Use It on the Semantic Web <https://seco.cs.aalto.fi/publications/2022/hyvonen-infra-2022.pdf>*. 2023. Semantic Webjournal,forth-coming, . bib <https://seco.cs.aalto.fi/publications/2022/hyvonen-infra-2022.bib>pdf <https://seco.cs.aalto.fi/publications/2022/hyvonen-infra-2022.pdf>link <http://www.semantic-web-journal.net/content/how-create-and-use-national-cross-domain-ontology-and-data-infrastructure-semantic-web> Eero Hyvönen: *Digital Humanities on the Semantic Web: Sampo Model and Portal Series <https://seco.cs.aalto.fi/publications/2021/hyvonen-sampo-model-2021.pdf>*. Semantic Webjournal, vol. 14, no. 4, pp. 729-744, IOS Press, 2023. bib <https://seco.cs.aalto.fi/publications/2021/hyvonen-sampo-model-2021.bib>pdf <https://seco.cs.aalto.fi/publications/2021/hyvonen-sampo-model-2021.pdf>link <https://doi.org/10.3233/SW-223034> Many of the "Sampos" use CIDOC CRM -based data models. All the best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] NEW ISSUE: Statements about Statements.
Dear All, I have noted all your declarations of interest in this discussion! Next week, I'll set up an initial google document open to all members of this mailing list. I'll keep the discussions to those interested until we have a basic agreement about the document. See also: https://enterprise-knowledge.com/rdf-what-is-it-and-why-do-i-need-it/ best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] NEW ISSUE: Statements about Statements.
You are all welcome! I'll send you soon an outline of what I have in mind. All the best, Martin n 5/14/2023 10:55 PM, Dominic Oldman wrote: Hi Martin, I would like to be involved. Thanks, Dominic On Sun, 14 May 2023 at 19:34, Martin Doerr wrote: Dear Dominic, all, Yes, I will always defend that modeling is technology independent, limited however to the degree that science and technology should at least provide the prospect of implementation in the near future, and some viable approximations immediately. We definitely started the CRM before the technology was generally available but expected. The primary criterion is that the model reflects our insight about the scientific discourse we target at. As such, I see the model-level discussion to be between reasoning about "proposition sets" versus a "single binary proposition". The technical discussion should be about best and most effective approximations, regardless popular or not. The effectiveness will depend on use cases and platform requirements. Please let us know, who is interested in participating in a narrower subgroup for creating a document analyzing the alternatives. Best, Martin On 5/11/2023 8:01 PM, Dominic Oldman wrote: Hi Just a quick question on this. We develop the model independently of technology. I can see that this discussion is getting technical. I currently implement propositions sets using RDF named graphs because we can and it works but it is not stipulated. Rob suggests that there are tech upgrades that might suit this issue better. However, isn't it the case that we need to be able to implement in different ways (I don't currently know much about RDF*) depending on the systems we have? How is RDF* implemented? - is it backwardly compatible with what we are all using? Do we give more modelling credence to things that everyone uses? etc., etc. But aren't these questions the reason why we are technology independent? Given this, my question is, - have we got to a stage when the modelling now depends on a particular technology? Can someone provide some clarification on this? Which solution is tech independent? Are they all independent of this tech discussion? One is at least. D On Thu, 11 May 2023 at 16:18, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Robert, We have just created the new issue to discuss this in detail. We should prepare a detailed analysis, citing all pros and cons. May be we continue this discussion better in a subgroup? Named Graphs are not a very specific technology, if we take the fact that all current triple stores are actually implemented as quad stores, regardless whether they call the construct "Named Graph" or "context". We have used and implemented this feature, and it is very performant. It runs on BlazeGraph as well. I think their is not a simple answer to that. Performance can become a major issue, when you have really a lot of data. For the attribution of artists and "style of" vs "school of" etc. of the collection management system of the British Museum, the ResearchSpace Project had created a set of subproperties of P14 carried out by, which could be used as input for a roles vocabulary. I did not propose to use Dig as is, but to consider the construct. The W3C annotation model is very interesting. We would need a connection to the Creation Event of making an annotation, and whose opinion it is, in order to make it CRM compatible. Why not allowing a Named Graph as target? We should compare the segment construct of the W3C annotation model with the METS types and extensions we used. The Dig model was used to trace provenance of annotated area through transformations of digital objects. That was very important for exchanging research insights on 3D models. To be discussed! We can extend E13 to Proposition Sets, which would be very important to describe consistently CRMinf and generalized observations. That would then be most effectively implementd via Named Graphs. Opinions? Best, Martin On 5/11/2023 3:41 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote: If the intent is that the assertion is in the discourse, and not a syntactic workaround for .1 properties that would be unnecessary if we had RDF* or property graphs, then I would say E13 is exactly the right approach to use. In comparison, I consider the PC classes to be just that - a syntactic work around needed in RDF and not part of the discourse. In LInked Art, in a discuss
[Crm-sig] NEW ISSUE: Statements about Statements.
Dear Dominic, all, Yes, I will always defend that modeling is technology independent, limited however to the degree that science and technology should at least provide the prospect of implementation in the near future, and some viable approximations immediately. We definitely started the CRM before the technology was generally available but expected. The primary criterion is that the model reflects our insight about the scientific discourse we target at. As such, I see the model-level discussion to be between reasoning about "proposition sets" versus a "single binary proposition". The technical discussion should be about best and most effective approximations, regardless popular or not. The effectiveness will depend on use cases and platform requirements. Please let us know, who is interested in participating in a narrower subgroup for creating a document analyzing the alternatives. Best, Martin On 5/11/2023 8:01 PM, Dominic Oldman wrote: Hi Just a quick question on this. We develop the model independently of technology. I can see that this discussion is getting technical. I currently implement propositions sets using RDF named graphs because we can and it works but it is not stipulated. Rob suggests that there are tech upgrades that might suit this issue better. However, isn't it the case that we need to be able to implement in different ways (I don't currently know much about RDF*) depending on the systems we have? How is RDF* implemented? - is it backwardly compatible with what we are all using? Do we give more modelling credence to things that everyone uses? etc., etc. But aren't these questions the reason why we are technology independent? Given this, my question is, - have we got to a stage when the modelling now depends on a particular technology? Can someone provide some clarification on this? Which solution is tech independent? Are they all independent of this tech discussion? One is at least. D On Thu, 11 May 2023 at 16:18, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Robert, We have just created the new issue to discuss this in detail. We should prepare a detailed analysis, citing all pros and cons. May be we continue this discussion better in a subgroup? Named Graphs are not a very specific technology, if we take the fact that all current triple stores are actually implemented as quad stores, regardless whether they call the construct "Named Graph" or "context". We have used and implemented this feature, and it is very performant. It runs on BlazeGraph as well. I think their is not a simple answer to that. Performance can become a major issue, when you have really a lot of data. For the attribution of artists and "style of" vs "school of" etc. of the collection management system of the British Museum, the ResearchSpace Project had created a set of subproperties of P14 carried out by, which could be used as input for a roles vocabulary. I did not propose to use Dig as is, but to consider the construct. The W3C annotation model is very interesting. We would need a connection to the Creation Event of making an annotation, and whose opinion it is, in order to make it CRM compatible. Why not allowing a Named Graph as target? We should compare the segment construct of the W3C annotation model with the METS types and extensions we used. The Dig model was used to trace provenance of annotated area through transformations of digital objects. That was very important for exchanging research insights on 3D models. To be discussed! We can extend E13 to Proposition Sets, which would be very important to describe consistently CRMinf and generalized observations. That would then be most effectively implementd via Named Graphs. Opinions? Best, Martin On 5/11/2023 3:41 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote: If the intent is that the assertion is in the discourse, and not a syntactic workaround for .1 properties that would be unnecessary if we had RDF* or property graphs, then I would say E13 is exactly the right approach to use. In comparison, I consider the PC classes to be just that - a syntactic work around needed in RDF and not part of the discourse. In LInked Art, in a discussion around uncertain attribution of artists and "style of" vs "school of", we posited the need for a property on E13 for this scenario. (Also the need for .1 on P11 for the same reason as we have it on P14) I would say that Dig's annotation is *not* the correct approach for several reasons: * Named Graphs are a very specific technology that have never seen significant uptake and are likely (IMO) to decrease in usage once RDF* is formalized. * Dig needs to be updated, and Annotation is (I would h
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 625: O13 *triggers* scope note [HW reminder]
On 5/12/2023 7:53 AM, Wolfgang Schmidle wrote: Dear Martin, Thank you for your explanations, and sorry that I cannot join the discussion of this issue today. I think my point was that your formalisation is for "directly triggered", whereas the flood example suggests that "triggered" can also be used in the sense of "eventually triggered". Like the movements of the first and last ball in Newton's cradle, where there is no spatiotemporal overlap between the triggering and triggered event (and also no change of the kind of processes, and if there is sustained tension in this target system then virtually any system is in sustained tension). But of course Newton's cradle is a somewhat theoretical example, and if it is obvious to any expert that the flood example fits the scope note then so be it. Hi Wolfgang, You are welcome! Of course, the distinction between "triggers" and a more general causal chain is a bit tricky. Note however, that the flood waters (I assume) have penetrated into the library, as such, from a forensic point of view, substance of the triggering event is directly involved in the effect. In that sense, it is not as indirect as your example above. Landslides, structures breaking and other sudden events, on the other side, may in principle start without a trigger, just by gradually passing over the threshhold of stability by continued environmental impacts. Nothing is obvious: Each model is an answer to a question, and there are no models without questions. Taking the point of view that CRMsci is still at a level of information integration and cross-resource search, I take the implicit questions to be to understand risks, quantitatively, and to understand effects of such kinds of events. Possibly also, connecting an individual object to its presence at a certain time and place in the past, for whatever related reasoning. Conservation experts please critisize my view here! For this purpose, the level of detail I have defended would be adequate. If you want to make a model of the process details from the flood water entering a building until the effects on the books, one would first select the material with the above questions, ask for detailed analyses as they may exist, and then enter another research process locally with different models and tools, going into physical-chemical-biological interactions. At least, this is how I perceive the research worklfow. Typical triggering is, of course, pressing the button of a camera, etc. substantial for interacting with mechanical and electronic devices. A delay detonator may put a longer time between the final effect and the starting of the device, but the device ticking can be regarded as part of the triggered process. All the best, Martin Best, Wolfgang Am 30.04.2023 um 17:56 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig : Dear Wolfgang, Your questions well-taken, but please do not seek a logical surrogate of reality. It does not exist. The logic can be not more than an overlay, approximating and simplifying reality, in more detail: On 4/21/2023 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Here's a diff: * label: OLD O13 triggers (is triggered by) NEW O13 triggered (was triggered by) (in the examples it was already called "triggered" rather than "triggers") * scope note: Part 1 is unchanged: This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake. Part 2: OLD In that sense the triggering event is interpreted as a cause. However, the association of the two events is based on their temporal proximity, with the triggering event ending when the triggered event starts. NEW The distinction of the triggering event from the triggered one lies in their difference of nature: The starting of the triggered event is the result of an interaction of constituents with the triggering one, but not a continuation of the kinds of processes of the latter. Therefore the triggering event must spatiotemporally overlap with the initial time and area of the triggered event, and the spreading out of the subsequent phenomena must initiate from this area and time and not from multiple independent areas. * FOL: O13(x,y) ⇒ P182(x,y) removed (Domain, range, quantification, examples are unchanged) About the changes: Scope note part 2: If there needs to be an interaction of constituents and thus a spatiotemporal overlap, then I am not sure I understand the 1966 flood example. There is an overlap between the flood and a book getting wet and an overlap between a book being wet as a result and the growing of the mould, but is there a
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
Dear Robert, We have just created the new issue to discuss this in detail. We should prepare a detailed analysis, citing all pros and cons. May be we continue this discussion better in a subgroup? Named Graphs are not a very specific technology, if we take the fact that all current triple stores are actually implemented as quad stores, regardless whether they call the construct "Named Graph" or "context". We have used and implemented this feature, and it is very performant. It runs on BlazeGraph as well. I think their is not a simple answer to that. Performance can become a major issue, when you have really a lot of data. For the attribution of artists and "style of" vs "school of" etc. of the collection management system of the British Museum, the ResearchSpace Project had created a set of subproperties of P14 carried out by, which could be used as input for a roles vocabulary. I did not propose to use Dig as is, but to consider the construct. The W3C annotation model is very interesting. We would need a connection to the Creation Event of making an annotation, and whose opinion it is, in order to make it CRM compatible. Why not allowing a Named Graph as target? We should compare the segment construct of the W3C annotation model with the METS types and extensions we used. The Dig model was used to trace provenance of annotated area through transformations of digital objects. That was very important for exchanging research insights on 3D models. To be discussed! We can extend E13 to Proposition Sets, which would be very important to describe consistently CRMinf and generalized observations. That would then be most effectively implementd via Named Graphs. Opinions? Best, Martin On 5/11/2023 3:41 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote: If the intent is that the assertion is in the discourse, and not a syntactic workaround for .1 properties that would be unnecessary if we had RDF* or property graphs, then I would say E13 is exactly the right approach to use. In comparison, I consider the PC classes to be just that - a syntactic work around needed in RDF and not part of the discourse. In LInked Art, in a discussion around uncertain attribution of artists and "style of" vs "school of", we posited the need for a property on E13 for this scenario. (Also the need for .1 on P11 for the same reason as we have it on P14) I would say that Dig's annotation is *not* the correct approach for several reasons: * Named Graphs are a very specific technology that have never seen significant uptake and are likely (IMO) to decrease in usage once RDF* is formalized. * Dig needs to be updated, and Annotation is (I would hope) likely to go away ... because ... * ... it could just use the Web Annotation Data Model: https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/ (And reification has all the problems discussed in this thread already) Rob On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 7:17 AM George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Martin, I agree that E13 is a poor man's solution to a complicated problem. But it is for some, the solution available. Other solutions like Inf for documenting historical argumentation and using named graphs is great as a possibility. Using prov o to represent the meta discursive level of the provenance of the dataset as such great. But my immediate interest was simple the humble ability of E13 to be able to point to all statements that can be made with precisely one link in CRM. I'll keep watching the space! Cheers, G On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 1:25 PM Martin Doerr wrote: Dear George, I agree with you below about the historical aspects. The annotation model has the same historical aspect, but is not limited to a single link. Let us discuss!😁 Best, Martin On 5/11/2023 12:41 PM, George Bruseker wrote: Dear Francesco, Martin, Again for the record since I seem to be being read at cross purposes, when I mention the word 'provenance' I do not mean it in the sense of dataset provenance (to which prov o would apply). I mean that in the world to be described (the real world of tables charis cats dogs scholars ideas etc.) there are real world events in which people attribute things to things (see my previous email). This is content of the world to be represented in the semantic graph (not a metagraph about the graph). This is describable and is described in CIDOC CRM using E13 and its friends. If you want to say that there was a historical situation that someone in your department said (likely in the information system) that some attribute related two things you can do this with E13 (or I have completely misunderstood the CIDOC CRM). This happens all th
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
Dear George, I agree with you below about the historical aspects. The annotation model has the same historical aspect, but is not limited to a single link. Let us discuss!😁 Best, Martin On 5/11/2023 12:41 PM, George Bruseker wrote: Dear Francesco, Martin, Again for the record since I seem to be being read at cross purposes, when I mention the word 'provenance' I do not mean it in the sense of dataset provenance (to which prov o would apply). I mean that in the world to be described (the real world of tables charis cats dogs scholars ideas etc.) there are real world events in which people attribute things to things (see my previous email). This is content of the world to be represented in the semantic graph (not a metagraph about the graph). This is describable and is described in CIDOC CRM using E13 and its friends. If you want to say that there was a historical situation that someone in your department said (likely in the information system) that some attribute related two things you can do this with E13 (or I have completely misunderstood the CIDOC CRM). This happens all the time in art history. One particular often arising case is an argument about who played what role in some object. Was Davinci the painter or was it Simon? This is just a hum drum case of needing to apply CIDOC CRM to real cases. Since E13 is a mechanism for so doing on all other statements, it would be a logical continuation that it could be used also on .1 statements. But for technical reasons it cannot, that is why I suggested a mild technical solution that makes the technical extension logically coherent. It is in this sense that I mean provenance and not in the metasense of the provenance of the data qua data, also an exciting but other issue to my mind. Cheers, George On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 12:27 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Francesco, This is an excellent paper. I cite: "However, reification has no formal semantics, and leads to a high increase in the number of triples, hence, it does not scale well. " I agree with your proposals. Prov-O mapping is a must for CRM-SIG. Best, Martin On 5/10/2023 11:55 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Martin, George, All, I would not dare to suggest some solution of this complex issue but let me hint to a couple of useful papers (among many others): Sikos, Leslie F., and Dean Philp, ‘Provenance-Aware Knowledge Representation: A Survey of Data Models and Contextualized Knowledge Graphs’, /Data Science and Engineering/, 5.3 (2020), 293–316 <https://doi.org/10.1007/s41019-020-00118-0> Hernández, Daniel, Aidan Hogan, and Markus Krötzsch, ‘Reifying RDF: What Works Well With Wikidata?’, in /Proceedings of the 11th International Workshop on Scalable Semantic Web Knowledge Base Systems Co-Located with 14th International Semantic Web Conference (ISWC 2015), Bethlehem, PA, USA, October 11, 2015./, 2015, pp. 32–47 <http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1457/SSWS2015_paper3.pdf> Once again, I would like to suggest carefully distinguishing between the CRM domain of discourse, in which the E13 class is conceptualized, and the issue of stating the provenance of the information modelled in the discourse domain, including instances of class E13 as part of the modelled domain. For this last task (or domain of discourse), it would seems reasonable and in line with best practices to use the PROV model and the corresponding PROV-O ontology, a W3C recommendation. Or providing a specific extension of the CRM, compatible and aligned with the PROV model. But using PROV-O seems a good choice in order to facilitate interoperability. There remains the more fundamental question of whether the current debate about RDF implementation is not in fact indicative of a more fundamental problem related to properties of properties and the implicit and richer information they contain, which cannot be adequately expressed in RDF without conceptualising them in terms of actual classes. Aren't these rather hybrid P(roperty)C(lasses), especially if they should be declared as subclasses of E1, to be considered as /de facto/ classes and not just properties? Because if they are just statements, then adopting one or the other form of existing RDF reifications practices seems to be the good way to go. Best Francesco Le 10.05.23 à 18:48, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit : Dear All, I suggest to resolve the issue of referring to the provenance of .1 properties more specifically: Solution a: Add properties to E13 to specify a .1 property. This may be more effective than the double indirection via PC class instance and 4 links of the E13 construct. Solution b: Use RDF reification for this specific problem via the PC class.
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
Dear Francesco, This is an excellent paper. I cite: "However, reification has no formal semantics, and leads to a high increase in the number of triples, hence, it does not scale well. " I agree with your proposals. Prov-O mapping is a must for CRM-SIG. Best, Martin On 5/10/2023 11:55 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Martin, George, All, I would not dare to suggest some solution of this complex issue but let me hint to a couple of useful papers (among many others): Sikos, Leslie F., and Dean Philp, ‘Provenance-Aware Knowledge Representation: A Survey of Data Models and Contextualized Knowledge Graphs’, /Data Science and Engineering/, 5.3 (2020), 293–316 <https://doi.org/10.1007/s41019-020-00118-0> Hernández, Daniel, Aidan Hogan, and Markus Krötzsch, ‘Reifying RDF: What Works Well With Wikidata?’, in /Proceedings of the 11th International Workshop on Scalable Semantic Web Knowledge Base Systems Co-Located with 14th International Semantic Web Conference (ISWC 2015), Bethlehem, PA, USA, October 11, 2015./, 2015, pp. 32–47 <http://ceur-ws.org/Vol-1457/SSWS2015_paper3.pdf> Once again, I would like to suggest carefully distinguishing between the CRM domain of discourse, in which the E13 class is conceptualized, and the issue of stating the provenance of the information modelled in the discourse domain, including instances of class E13 as part of the modelled domain. For this last task (or domain of discourse), it would seems reasonable and in line with best practices to use the PROV model and the corresponding PROV-O ontology, a W3C recommendation. Or providing a specific extension of the CRM, compatible and aligned with the PROV model. But using PROV-O seems a good choice in order to facilitate interoperability. There remains the more fundamental question of whether the current debate about RDF implementation is not in fact indicative of a more fundamental problem related to properties of properties and the implicit and richer information they contain, which cannot be adequately expressed in RDF without conceptualising them in terms of actual classes. Aren't these rather hybrid P(roperty)C(lasses), especially if they should be declared as subclasses of E1, to be considered as /de facto/ classes and not just properties? Because if they are just statements, then adopting one or the other form of existing RDF reifications practices seems to be the good way to go. Best Francesco Le 10.05.23 à 18:48, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit : Dear All, I suggest to resolve the issue of referring to the provenance of .1 properties more specifically: Solution a: Add properties to E13 to specify a .1 property. This may be more effective than the double indirection via PC class instance and 4 links of the E13 construct. Solution b: Use RDF reification for this specific problem via the PC class. We need to examine in both cases the inferences we want to maintain about the base property and its domain and range, and what the relevant query construct is. Personally, I prefer solution c: Use the annotation model of CRM Dig, which goes via Named Graphs. This is much more performant and logically clearer, because Named Graphs are implemented as direct references to property identifier, and maintain a reference count for each one. This is an important logic in its own right. Inferences about the .properties would work in out ouf of a Named Graph, whereas the reification may need additional rules. The query languages of Quad stores support them explicitly. The latest version of 3M supports Named Graph definitions. This feature should be tested. I would rather discourage E13 in the long term as a means to denote provenance generally and recommend a uniform use of Named Graphs. I am aware that not all RDF encodings support the feature. I that case we could resort to reification. Opinions? Best, Martin On 5/9/2023 10:37 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Christian-Emil, All, For the reasons I detailed in my other email, I totally agree with your point of view and would like to raise all possible caveats to this kind of mixing up quick and dirty implementation solutions and consistent conceptual modelling. If we need more classes, even on a provisional and experimental perspective, I would strongly suggest to produce them and document them as such, with stable URIs, and then refine progressively the ontology and integrate it into the CRM family. Of course, a nice place to do this is ontome.net 😉 Best Francesco Le 08.05.23 à 17:36, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig a écrit : Also: RDF(S) is an implementation technology. We can assume that there exists a implmentation function from the CRM-FOL to RDF(S), but this may not be a 1-1 function. Strange constructs like the PC0(?) may not have counterparts in CRM-FOL. Changing the ontology on the bases of special tricks used in the imp
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
Dear All, I suggest to resolve the issue of referring to the provenance of .1 properties more specifically: Solution a: Add properties to E13 to specify a .1 property. This may be more effective than the double indirection via PC class instance and 4 links of the E13 construct. Solution b: Use RDF reification for this specific problem via the PC class. We need to examine in both cases the inferences we want to maintain about the base property and its domain and range, and what the relevant query construct is. Personally, I prefer solution c: Use the annotation model of CRM Dig, which goes via Named Graphs. This is much more performant and logically clearer, because Named Graphs are implemented as direct references to property identifier, and maintain a reference count for each one. This is an important logic in its own right. Inferences about the .properties would work in out ouf of a Named Graph, whereas the reification may need additional rules. The query languages of Quad stores support them explicitly. The latest version of 3M supports Named Graph definitions. This feature should be tested. I would rather discourage E13 in the long term as a means to denote provenance generally and recommend a uniform use of Named Graphs. I am aware that not all RDF encodings support the feature. I that case we could resort to reification. Opinions? Best, Martin On 5/9/2023 10:37 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Christian-Emil, All, For the reasons I detailed in my other email, I totally agree with your point of view and would like to raise all possible caveats to this kind of mixing up quick and dirty implementation solutions and consistent conceptual modelling. If we need more classes, even on a provisional and experimental perspective, I would strongly suggest to produce them and document them as such, with stable URIs, and then refine progressively the ontology and integrate it into the CRM family. Of course, a nice place to do this is ontome.net 😉 Best Francesco Le 08.05.23 à 17:36, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig a écrit : Also: RDF(S) is an implementation technology. We can assume that there exists a implmentation function from the CRM-FOL to RDF(S), but this may not be a 1-1 function. Strange constructs like the PC0(?) may not have counterparts in CRM-FOL. Changing the ontology on the bases of special tricks used in the implementation may not always be a good idea, but may inspire us to make well thought out and consistent changes in the ontology. ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
PM Robert Sanderson via Crm-sig wrote: Perhaps for the first time, I agree with Martin and not George! The PC classes are part of the ontological layer -- we don't say that classes or properties are descendants of E1. Or PC classes are T box (terminology) and not A box (assertions using that terminology). (See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abox) I can see, however, that it would be useful to be able to refer to assertions in CRMInf and perhaps in Activity templates ... but then those assertions _are_ A box - the are the subject of the discourse, not the language in which the discourse is taking place. We have Attribute Assignment to talk about important activities that assert relationships or properties. And if we don't want to go to that layer of A box layer reification, then we have the partitioning pattern -- to assert a role of a particular individual in an activity, we can identify the part of that activity that the person carried out and assert a role classification on it via P2_has_type. Rob On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 9:44 AM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, I don't think it is correct to make the PC classes entities. Even though formally an RDF class could be regarded as an entity, ontologically we distinguish entities and relationships. The E-R paradigm makes this distinction also formally clear. We model the properties with .1 properties in FOL as n-ary relationships, and not as individuals. Making the PC classes CRM Entities is inconsistent with the FOL definition, which is the proper formalization. In other words, we would make a workaround for a missing feature in RDFS an ontological argument. We are again in the discussion to take RDFS as the definition of the CRM, and not as an implementation. As a first step, we could introduce an "E0 CRM Relation", which would have as instances all properties and the PC classes. The ontological distinction between relations and entities is fundamental to the methodology of ontological analysis. As a second step, we can start to investigate to which degree PC classes qualify as ontological individuals in their own right. If we start declaring a priori all PC classes as entities, we have later to justify and remove all those that are relations in the true sense. For instance, I cannot imagine the "being part of" a Physical Object for some time to become an entity, because it needs a timespan. Best, Martin On 5/8/2023 12:54 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: Hi all, I would argue that the safest thing to do is to make the PCs a subclass of E1 and then see where we go from there. I agree with Martin that it can't be an information object (because everything would be then) but I imagine we would have a debate about what each .1 actually ontologically is. What is certain is that by virtue of the fact of being something said in the universe of CIDOC CRM it is something sayable / mentionable. This is what E1 gives us, the most vague point of an object that can be pointed to and named, possibly classified. The problem is right now that we have something that is sayable in CIDOC CRM (PCxxx) but it is not referenceable. But this is a logical contradiction. Everything that can be said can be referenced and PCxxx can definitely be said. For example, if I say that Bob was involved in the Production of Mona Lisa as Creator then this is something said / stated that is important, that has a real world referent, which has a definite meaning which is true or false etc. Ergo, it requires provenance. The basic mechanism for provenance in CRMbase is E13 and indicates that there was an agency behind something being asserted of something else. Here the thing we want to talk about is the role and the role IS an instance of PC14. It's already an instance of a class so it should be referenceable. (Also one might like to put a bibliography for people who thought that Bob was Creator of Mona Lisa etc.) So I would go exactly for Paulos' modelling but with this change: :p
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
e don't want to go to that layer of A box layer reification, then we have the partitioning pattern -- to assert a role of a particular individual in an activity, we can identify the part of that activity that the person carried out and assert a role classification on it via P2_has_type. Rob On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 9:44 AM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, I don't think it is correct to make the PC classes entities. Even though formally an RDF class could be regarded as an entity, ontologically we distinguish entities and relationships. The E-R paradigm makes this distinction also formally clear. We model the properties with .1 properties in FOL as n-ary relationships, and not as individuals. Making the PC classes CRM Entities is inconsistent with the FOL definition, which is the proper formalization. In other words, we would make a workaround for a missing feature in RDFS an ontological argument. We are again in the discussion to take RDFS as the definition of the CRM, and not as an implementation. As a first step, we could introduce an "E0 CRM Relation", which would have as instances all properties and the PC classes. The ontological distinction between relations and entities is fundamental to the methodology of ontological analysis. As a second step, we can start to investigate to which degree PC classes qualify as ontological individuals in their own right. If we start declaring a priori all PC classes as entities, we have later to justify and remove all those that are relations in the true sense. For instance, I cannot imagine the "being part of" a Physical Object for some time to become an entity, because it needs a timespan. Best, Martin On 5/8/2023 12:54 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: Hi all, I would argue that the safest thing to do is to make the PCs a subclass of E1 and then see where we go from there. I agree with Martin that it can't be an information object (because everything would be then) but I imagine we would have a debate about what each .1 actually ontologically is. What is certain is that by virtue of the fact of being something said in the universe of CIDOC CRM it is something sayable / mentionable. This is what E1 gives us, the most vague point of an object that can be pointed to and named, possibly classified. The problem is right now that we have something that is sayable in CIDOC CRM (PCxxx) but it is not referenceable. But this is a logical contradiction. Everything that can be said can be referenced and PCxxx can definitely be said. For example, if I say that Bob was involved in the Production of Mona Lisa as Creator then this is something said / stated that is important, that has a real world referent, which has a definite meaning which is true or false etc. Ergo, it requires provenance. The basic mechanism for provenance in CRMbase is E13 and indicates that there was an agency behind something being asserted of something else. Here the thing we want to talk about is the role and the role IS an instance of PC14. It's already an instance of a class so it should be referenceable. (Also one might like to put a bibliography for people who thought that Bob was Creator of Mona Lisa etc.) So I would go exactly for Paulos' modelling but with this change: :painting_sistine_chapel crm:P01i_is_domain_of :role_of_michaelangeo_in_sistene_chapel_project :role_of_michaelangeo_in_sistene_chapel_project a crm:PC14_carried_out_by ; crm:P02_has_range :Michelangelo ; crm:P14.1_in_the_role_of :master_craftsman . :attrAssign1 a crm:E13_Attribute_Assignment ; crm:P140_assigned_attribute_to :role_of_michaelangeo_in_sistene_chapel_project ... ... ... On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 10:42 AM athinak wrote: Dear George, all, I am not sure that the class PC0_Typed_CRM_Property should be a subclass of E1. In my understanding, this class implies a situation concluded in an epistemological context. I am also not sure if the provenance we are looking for in this set of statements is a kind of E13. I am just wondering. BRs, Athina On 2023-03-29 16:36, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: > Dear all, > > When using the PC classes modelli
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
Hi George, On 5/8/2023 5:34 PM, George Bruseker wrote: Hi Rob and Martin, But the point is not to make assertions about the property class itself but the instance of the property class. of course😁 The instance of PC14 says Bob was the creator, Bob was a faker... it is a regular abox assertion. And it has an identifier, necessarily. The instances of PC classes are all already abox statements. They have just been modelled in an odd way where we don't account for their ontological substance. Being in a role is an ontological substance to define. Yes, we have discussed that in the past and in the OntoWeb project. There are 3 kinds of roles. This is the "incidental role". There was a classical paper about that. I'll search for it. Another role is the life-long role. A third one is the "persona" or "office" role. The point I made is the difference between ontological substance of individuals versus that of relations, and the epistemic substance of arguing about the world from a bird's perspective. I did not question the substance of roles, but their nature as "entities" or "individuals" in the narrower sense. For me it is a big problem if there are statements in the CRM that can be made (Bob was the builder) but can't be discussed. The abox statement Bob was the builder is definitely in the domain of discourse and for that reason should necessarily as a matter of principle be referenceable. I do not get the point. All statements, property instances, are referenceable, by reification, Named Graphs, A13. Bob being in the role of builder for that Activity can be formalized as specialication of the P14 carried out by. What problem do you try to solve? Otherwise, CRMbase cannot state the provenance for a piece of knowledge like Da Vinci had the role of painter of Mona Lisa. It becomes impossible. The abox information is in the PC14 instance. Why not? Provenance of knowledge is an epistemic layer on top of any KB. We have written in the introduction detailed explanations about that. Reification Yes we can use the partitioning pattern which is fine, but it remains a question of technically what to do about PC classes and it seems only half baked if they aren't instances of E1. They fit the definition of instances of E1, "This class comprises all things in the universe of discourse of the CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model." Being in the role of the painter of Mona Lisa is, for me, a thing in the universe of discourse of the CIDOC Conceptual Reference Model. Well, then we have to refine the term "thing". Clearly, E1 is used exclusively for individual entities. We did not model so far a "CRM relation", in order to avoid that people instantiate an unqualified relation. Logically, I do not get the point why making PC classes instances of E1 does solve a problem, which reification, Named Graphs and E13 already do? I mean, should we make an example? Could you be more specific why the latter 3 mechanisms do not work for any CRM property and .1 property?😁 Best, Martin The main thing is this is a technical extension to a technical extension to make things work and isn't a real ontological question to my mind. If we wanted to do the ontological discussions we would have to open up the modelling box of worms, which is definitely another issue. I, for example, would like to be able to talk about the timespan of the property of something being part of something... but that's a broader issue :) G On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 5:21 PM Robert Sanderson via Crm-sig wrote: Perhaps for the first time, I agree with Martin and not George! The PC classes are part of the ontological layer -- we don't say that classes or properties are descendants of E1. Or PC classes are T box (terminology) and not A box (assertions using that terminology). (See - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abox) I can see, however, that it would be useful to be able to refer to assertions in CRMInf and perhaps in Activity templates ... but then those assertions _are_ A box - the are the subject of the discourse, not the language in which the discourse is taking place. We have Attribute Assignment to talk about important activities that assert relationships or properties. And if we don't want to go to that layer of A box layer reification, then we have the partitioning pattern -- to assert a role of a particular individual in an activity, we can identify the part of that activity that the person carried out and assert a role classification on it via P2_has_type. Rob On Mon, May 8, 2023 at 9:44 AM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, I don't think it is correct to make the PC classes entities. Even though formally an RDF class could be regarded a
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
hen it would be consistent with the rest of the > modelling. > > Opinions? > > Best, > > George > ___ > Crm-sig mailing list > Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr > http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig _______ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] PC0_Typed_CRM_Property in CRMpc
Dear Pavlos, I don't think this is a good solution. Every statement in a knowledge base is an information object. That does not say however, what it refers to in the universe of discourse (or real world). The identity of the information object is the RDF file. The identity of Michelangelo, as stated in the file, means Michelangelo the person and not the URI as a string in that file. Isn't it? This is still an issue to resolve: In CRMinf, a Proposition Set is regarded as Information Object, but this is not what we actually mean, we mean the "meaning" of that Information Object, i.e., its truth or not. As such, CRMinf is inconsistent. This is, I think, Issue 614. Best, Martin On 5/6/2023 12:43 AM, Pavlos Fafalios via Crm-sig wrote: Dear George, An instance of a property class represents a statement / formal proposition. Could we thus say that it is also an E73 Information Object? Would multiple instantiation provide a solution to the problem you describe? E.g.: :painting_sistine_chapel crm:P14_carried_out_by :Michelangelo . *:statement1* a crm:PC14_carried_out_by, *crm:E73_Information_Object* ; crm:P01_has_domain :painting_sistine_chapel ; crm:P02_has_range :Michelangelo ; crm:P14.1_in_the_role_of :master_craftsman . :attrAssign1 a crm:E13_Attribute_Assignment ; crm:P140_assigned_attribute_to *:statement1* ... ... ... Thoughts? Have a good weekend! Best, Pavlos On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 4:36 PM George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, When using the PC classes modelling structure we end up with a class node for a property which we can then modify with things like 'kinds' and 'modes' etc. Since such a statement has meaning and comes from somewhere [e.g.: that someone did something in some capacity (PC14 carried out by ... P02 has range E39 + P14.1 in the role of E55)] one sometimes needs to provenance this statement with an E13 attribute assignment. Ie we want to ground who made this claim. In theory this would be done with E13 pointing to the node in the typical fashion (p141, P140). However, the class PC0_Typed_CRM_Property is not declared as a subtype of E1 CRM Entity in the PC extension file. As a result we cannot do this. https://cidoc-crm.org/rdfs/7.1.1/CIDOC_CRM_v7.1.1_PC.rdfs I would argue PC0_Typed_CRM_Property should be declared a subclass of E1_CRM_Entity. Then it would be consistent with the rest of the modelling. Opinions? Best, George ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Pavlos Fafalios Postdoctoral researcher Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science - FORTH Visiting Lecturer Department of Management Science & Technology Hellenic Mediterranean University Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece Tel: +30-2810-391619 ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] NEW ISSUE: Core and Application Models
Dear All, From the beginning of the CRM development, we followed a clear distinction between "core model" and "application model", as has been, in similar form, be proposed by other authors as well. The basic idea is that the wealth of phenomena , even for the domain of factual information of the historical sciencesto cannot be be modeledproactively, and will, in general, not be consistent. However, high-level "superproperties" can effectively "streamline" specializations under a common core, that enables to a high degree recall, i.e. query containment for questions across multiple resources that can return reasonably small result sets of most relevant facts available for the respective research. The latter may then be processed locally for further refinement, deductions and evaluations. The managerial idea was that CRMbase and extensions managed by the SIG form such a core, which is continuously verified by mapping of relevent applications for its genericity and efficiency for global querying. Any specific application that goes beyond a global aggregation of data should develop local application models. Only when enough experience with these application models has been collected, it should feed back into the models managed by the SIG for modification or enhancement. This experience building aims at maintaining the long-term robustness and effectiveness of all constructs in the core. Nevertheless, the aim to keep all SIG-managed extensions consistent and harmonized, poses an ultimate limit to the size these constructs can develop into. To my understanding, a lot of friction in the past years has been created by a lack of common understanding of the difference between these levels. My recommendations to develop certain constructs locally have sometimes been misinterpreted as rejections or lack of interest. Therefore, I propose to "define difference between core models and application models, clarify the way they interface technically and epistemologically, and define the managerial procedures associated with the relationship between them". This should also be a didactic goal. Best, Martin. -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE 588 Implementing the .1 Properties of Base and Extensions in RDF
ement Science & Technology Hellenic Mediterranean University Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece Tel: +30-2810-391619 ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Pavlos Fafalios Postdoctoral researcher Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science - FORTH Visiting Lecturer Department of Management Science & Technology Hellenic Mediterranean University Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece Tel: +30-2810-391619 ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE Implementing .2 Properties in RDF
Institute of Computer Science - FORTH Visiting Lecturer Department of Management Science & Technology Hellenic Mediterranean University Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece Tel: +30-2810-391619 ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Pavlos Fafalios Postdoctoral researcher Centre for Cultural Informatics & Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science - FORTH Visiting Lecturer Department of Management Science & Technology Hellenic Mediterranean University Web: http://users.ics.forth.gr/~fafalios/ Email: fafal...@ics.forth.gr Address: N. Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, 70013 Heraklion, Greece Tel: +30-2810-391619 ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- George Bruseker, PhD Chief Executive Officer Takin.solutions Ltd. https://www.takin.solutions/ ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 625: O13 *triggers* scope note PRINCIPLES
Dear All, By the way, I think I just made a statement below about principles. Would you regard this as noteworthy as principles? Best, Martin On 4/30/2023 6:36 PM, Martin Doerr wrote: Dear Wolfgang, Your questions well-taken, but please do not seek a logical surrogate of reality. It does not exist. The logic can be not more than an overlay, approximating and simplifying reality, in more detail: On 4/21/2023 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Here's a diff: * label: OLD O13 triggers (is triggered by) NEW O13 triggered (was triggered by) (in the examples it was already called "triggered" rather than "triggers") * scope note: Part 1 is unchanged: This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake. Part 2: OLD In that sense the triggering event is interpreted as a cause. However, the association of the two events is based on their temporal proximity, with the triggering event ending when the triggered event starts. NEW The distinction of the triggering event from the triggered one lies in their difference of nature: The starting of the triggered event is the result of an interaction of constituents with the triggering one, but not a continuation of the kinds of processes of the latter. Therefore the triggering event must spatiotemporally overlap with the initial time and area of the triggered event, and the spreading out of the subsequent phenomena must initiate from this area and time and not from multiple independent areas. * FOL: O13(x,y) ⇒ P182(x,y) removed (Domain, range, quantification, examples are unchanged) About the changes: Scope note part 2: If there needs to be an interaction of constituents and thus a spatiotemporal overlap, then I am not sure I understand the 1966 flood example. There is an overlap between the flood and a book getting wet and an overlap between a book being wet as a result and the growing of the mould, but is there an obvious interaction between the flood and the mould beginning to grow on a book? I am assuming O13 is not meant to be transitive? What is the initial time and area of "mould growth on books stored in flooded library rooms"? Is it obvious that this area is connected and not multiple independent areas? Well, it is obvious to any expert. The silent assumption of such a case of "causality" is that the interaction would not have happened under "normal" circumstances. The books obviously became wet by the flood. No normal library would make the books wet otherwise. The statement that the flood "triggered" actually approximates and simplifies the statement that the books became wet by the flood in a way that cold not be remedied readily by the library. In general, is not possible to break down such processes into discrete atomic logical steps. There is a considerable logical-philosophical complexity to any concept of causality. Therefore we have refused so far to introduce such a concept into CRMbase. To my understanding, the reasoning is about defaults of the environment, blaming the more exceptional to be the "cause", whereas others could equally blame the lack of foresight and protective measures, or any other random factor, just as someone getting in the path of a bullet by walking. Would that explanation satisfy your question?😁 FOL / superproperties: The new scope note suggests P132 "spatiotemporally overlaps with", as well as P176 "starts before the start of" (also suggested by Thanasis) and P173i "ends after or with the start of"? Additional questions: Scope note part 1: What is the sustained tension in the target system (books stored in library rooms) in the 1966 flood example? Or in a house that is destroyed by an earthquake or a wildfire? The sustained tension in this case is the sensitivity of the material to humidity. Whatever would raise humidity sufficiently would "trigger" such a process. Examples: Since we want to get rid of fictitious examples, would it make sense to replace the earthquake/landslide example? Non-fictitious examples would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_California#2018_fire or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_Things_Go (an artistic cascade of triggering events) Sure, I wonder if colleagues from FORTH could recover landslide examples from the European InGeoClouds project. Good examples could also be some houses falling down at the seaside around Santa Barbara coast in California, because of landing erosion approaching them. All the best, Martin Best, Wolfgang Am 20.04.2023 um 14
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 625: O13 *triggers* scope note [HW reminder]
Dear Wolfgang, Your questions well-taken, but please do not seek a logical surrogate of reality. It does not exist. The logic can be not more than an overlay, approximating and simplifying reality, in more detail: On 4/21/2023 1:59 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Here's a diff: * label: OLD O13 triggers (is triggered by) NEW O13 triggered (was triggered by) (in the examples it was already called "triggered" rather than "triggers") * scope note: Part 1 is unchanged: This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake. Part 2: OLD In that sense the triggering event is interpreted as a cause. However, the association of the two events is based on their temporal proximity, with the triggering event ending when the triggered event starts. NEW The distinction of the triggering event from the triggered one lies in their difference of nature: The starting of the triggered event is the result of an interaction of constituents with the triggering one, but not a continuation of the kinds of processes of the latter. Therefore the triggering event must spatiotemporally overlap with the initial time and area of the triggered event, and the spreading out of the subsequent phenomena must initiate from this area and time and not from multiple independent areas. * FOL: O13(x,y) ⇒ P182(x,y) removed (Domain, range, quantification, examples are unchanged) About the changes: Scope note part 2: If there needs to be an interaction of constituents and thus a spatiotemporal overlap, then I am not sure I understand the 1966 flood example. There is an overlap between the flood and a book getting wet and an overlap between a book being wet as a result and the growing of the mould, but is there an obvious interaction between the flood and the mould beginning to grow on a book? I am assuming O13 is not meant to be transitive? What is the initial time and area of "mould growth on books stored in flooded library rooms"? Is it obvious that this area is connected and not multiple independent areas? Well, it is obvious to any expert. The silent assumption of such a case of "causality" is that the interaction would not have happened under "normal" circumstances. The books obviously became wet by the flood. No normal library would make the books wet otherwise. The statement that the flood "triggered" actually approximates and simplifies the statement that the books became wet by the flood in a way that cold not be remedied readily by the library. In general, is not possible to break down such processes into discrete atomic logical steps. There is a considerable logical-philosophical complexity to any concept of causality. Therefore we have refused so far to introduce such a concept into CRMbase. To my understanding, the reasoning is about defaults of the environment, blaming the more exceptional to be the "cause", whereas others could equally blame the lack of foresight and protective measures, or any other random factor, just as someone getting in the path of a bullet by walking. Would that explanation satisfy your question?😁 FOL / superproperties: The new scope note suggests P132 "spatiotemporally overlaps with", as well as P176 "starts before the start of" (also suggested by Thanasis) and P173i "ends after or with the start of"? Additional questions: Scope note part 1: What is the sustained tension in the target system (books stored in library rooms) in the 1966 flood example? Or in a house that is destroyed by an earthquake or a wildfire? The sustained tension in this case is the sensitivity of the material to humidity. Whatever would raise humidity sufficiently would "trigger" such a process. Examples: Since we want to get rid of fictitious examples, would it make sense to replace the earthquake/landslide example? Non-fictitious examples would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise,_California#2018_fire or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_Things_Go (an artistic cascade of triggering events) Sure, I wonder if colleagues from FORTH could recover landslide examples from the European InGeoClouds project. Good examples could also be some houses falling down at the seaside around Santa Barbara coast in California, because of landing erosion approaching them. All the best, Martin Best, Wolfgang Am 20.04.2023 um 14:01 schrieb Martin Doerr via Crm-sig : Dear All, Here my first go: OLD O13 triggers (is triggered by) Domain: E5 Event Range: E5 Event Quantification: many to many (0,n:0,n) Scope note: This propert
[Crm-sig] Issue_510_Belief_Adoption working document
Dear All, Attached the working document for completing the new definitions of Belief Adoption, interfacing with the latest version of CRMtex. Please pay attention to the examples which go through the whole constructs: The first is the nice text (https://www.britishmuseum.org/blog/who-was-nero) by Francesca Bologna about Emperor Nero of Rome, which summarizes the recent revisions of historical beliefs about his actual deeds: I cite: "But what do we really know about Nero? Can we separate the scandalous stories told by later authors from the reality of his rule? Most of what we know about Nero comes from the surviving works of three historians – Tacitus, Suetonius and Cassius Dio. All written decades after Nero's death, their accounts have long shaped our understanding of this emperor's rule. However, far from being impartial narrators presenting objective accounts of past events, these authors and their sources wrote with a very clear agenda in mind. Nero's demise brought forward a period of chaos and civil war – one that ended only when a new dynasty seized power, the Flavians. Authors writing under the Flavians all *had an interest* in legitimising the new ruling family by portraying the last of the Julio-Claudians in the worst possible light, *turning history into propaganda*. These accounts became the 'historical' sources used by later historians, therefore perpetuating a fabricated image of Nero, which has survived all the way to the present." and: "On 19 July AD 64, a fire started close to the Circus Maximus. The flames soon encompassed the entire city of Rome and the fire raged for nine days. Only four of the 14 districts of the capital were spared, while three were completely destroyed. Rome had already been razed by flames – and would be again in its long history – but this event was so severe it came to be known as the Great Fire of Rome. Later historians blamed Nero for the event, claiming that he set the capital ablaze in order to clear land for the construction of a vast new palace. According to Suetonius and Cassius Dio, Nero took in the view of the burning city from the imperial residence while playing the lyre and singing about the fall of Troy. *This story, however, is fictional*." This text represents the characteristic reasoning about the trust in historical sources we want to model as "Belief Adoption". The detail that Nero could not be in Rome and Antium the same time is however logical, and an instance of Inference Making. As examples of Provenance Assessment, I used the discussion about the authenticity of the "Nebra Sky Disc", which was initially regarded as a probable forgery, and later proven to be from Bronce Age. The story how the looting place was recovered and the object ended up in a museum is exciting as well. We could add the opposite story, about the Minoan Godess with Snakes: https://collections.mfa.org/objects/150499 https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2003/2003.02.36/ which was initially believed to be Bronze Age, and recently be regarded rather as forgery. I still do not have a good example questioning the provenance of a text. Often, ancient texts contain more modern add-ons. May be someone on this list is aware of a good example. Feedback welcome! Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl Issue_510_Belief_Adoption_WD.docx Description: MS-Word 2007 document ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Issue 625: O13 *triggers* scope note [HW reminder]
Dear All, Here my first go: *OLD* *O13 triggers (is triggered by)*** Domain: E5 <#_E2_Temporal_Entity>Event Range: E5 <#_E2_Temporal_Entity>Event Quantification: many to many (0,n:0,n) Scope note: This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake. In that sense the triggering event is interpreted as a cause. However, the association of the two events is based on their temporal proximity, with the triggering event ending when the triggered event starts. Examples: The earthquake of Parnitha in 1999 /triggered/the rotational landslide that was observed along the roadon the same day. (fictitious) The explosionat the Montserrat massif in 2007 (near Barcelona, Spain) /triggeredthe /rock fall event happened on 14 February 2007 (Vilajosana et al., 2008). The 1966 flood in Florence /triggered/ mould growth on books stored in flooded library rooms (Rubinstein, N., 1966) In First Order Logic: O13(x,y) ⇒E5(x) O13(x,y) ⇒E5(y) O13(x,y) ⇒P182(x,y) *NEW* *O13 triggered (was triggered by)*** Domain: E5 <#_E2_Temporal_Entity>Event Range: E5 <#_E2_Temporal_Entity>Event Quantification: many to many (0,n:0,n) Scope note: This property associates an instance of E5 Event that triggers another instance of E5 Event with the latter. It identifies the interaction between events: an event can activate (trigger) other events in a target system that is in a situation of sustained tension, such as a trap or an unstable mountain slope giving way to a land slide after a rain or earthquake. The distinction of the triggering event from the triggered one lies in their difference of nature: The starting of the triggered event is the result of an interaction of constituents with the triggering one, but not a continuation of the kinds of processes of the latter. Therefore the triggering event must spatiotemporally overlap with the initial time and area of the triggered event, and the spreading out of the subsequent phenomena must initiate from this area and time and not from multiple independent areas. Examples: The earthquake of Parnitha in 1999 /triggered/the rotational landslide that was observed along the roadon the same day. (fictitious) The explosionat the Montserrat massif in 2007 (near Barcelona, Spain) /triggeredthe /rock fall event happened on 14 February 2007 (Vilajosana et al., 2008). The 1966 flood in Florence /triggered/ mould growth on books stored in flooded library rooms (Rubinstein, N., 1966) In First Order Logic: O13(x,y) ⇒E5(x) O13(x,y) ⇒E5(y) **Best, Martin* * -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Belief Adoption example, HW issue 510
Dear Dariah, Thank you, I agree! I think we need to extend the meaning of I7 to "disbelief" as well. That comes in handy with the Nero example, because together with believing Tacitus where Nero was comes disbelieving Suetonius where Nero was. I'll work on that. It could be an alternative property or just the Truth Value associated. Opinions? Best, Martin On 4/11/2023 6:50 PM, Гук Дарья Юрьевна wrote: Dear all, if somebody is agree with hypothesis or some thesis, it's clear, but if thereis a reason to be against. How it will work? Sincerely, Daria *От:* Crm-sig от имени Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Отправлено:* 11 апреля 2023 г. 15:32:32 *Кому:* crm-sig *Тема:* [Crm-sig] Belief Adoption example, HW issue 510 Dear All, Here my homework with a real belief adoption. I7 Belief Adoption Subclass of: I1 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EywWv4dE2B1bH8NNm8ec0JGa6Af7_GsR/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs>Argumentation Superclass of: Scope note:This class comprises the action of an E39 Actor adopting propositions taken from an interpretation of the intended meaning of an instance of E73 Information Object as being true or in some way likely to be true. The adopted propositions constitute the conclusion of the action in the form of a new instance of Ix4 Adopted Belief of the adopting actor. The basis of I7 Belief Adoption is the justification of trust in the source of the adopted propositions rather than the application of rules for inferring the respective propositions from logical premises. Typical examples are the citation of academic papers or the reuse of data sets. Where an instance of I7 Belief Adoption is based on personal communication (marked as pers.comm. in the studied text) this should be represented by using P2 /has type/: “Pers.Comm.” directly from the instance of I7 Belief Adoption. Properties:Jxx5 adopted interpretation (was concluded by): Ix4 Adopted Belief J7 is based on evidence from (was evidence for): E73 Information Object Jxx3 assumed meaning (was assumed by): Ix2 Intended Meaning Belief Jxx4 assuming provenance (was assumed by): Ix5 Provenance Belief J11 used manifestation (was manifestation used by): F3 Manifestation J12**used (was used by): F5 Item Examples: §My adoption of the belief that Dragendorff type 29 bowls are from the 1st Century AD §Francesca Bologna’s adoption of Tacitus’ belief that Nero was not in Rome when the Great Fire started. (F. Bologna, 2021). [Francesca Bologna adopted Tacitus belief, of the only historian who was actually alive at the time of the Great Fire of Rome (although only 8 years old): "Nero at this time was at Antium and did not return to Rome until the fire approached his house" in : Tacitus, Publius Cornelius. The Annals. Book 15 [15.16].] See: https://www.britishmuseum.org/blog/who-was-nero, By Francesca Bologna, Nero Project Curator, Publication date: 22 April 2021. accessed 4/10/2023 -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Belief Adoption example, HW issue 510
Dear All, Here my homework with a real belief adoption. I7 Belief Adoption Subclass of: I1 <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EywWv4dE2B1bH8NNm8ec0JGa6Af7_GsR/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs>Argumentation Superclass of: Scope note:This class comprises the action of an E39 Actor adopting propositions taken from an interpretation of the intended meaning of an instance of E73 Information Object as being true or in some way likely to be true. The adopted propositions constitute the conclusion of the action in the form of a new instance of Ix4 Adopted Belief of the adopting actor. The basis of I7 Belief Adoption is the justification of trust in the source of the adopted propositions rather than the application of rules for inferring the respective propositions from logical premises. Typical examples are the citation of academic papers or the reuse of data sets. Where an instance of I7 Belief Adoption is based on personal communication (marked as pers.comm. in the studied text) this should be represented by using P2 /has type/: “Pers.Comm.” directly from the instance of I7 Belief Adoption. Properties:Jxx5 adopted interpretation (was concluded by): Ix4 Adopted Belief J7 is based on evidence from (was evidence for): E73 Information Object Jxx3 assumed meaning (was assumed by): Ix2 Intended Meaning Belief Jxx4 assuming provenance (was assumed by): Ix5 Provenance Belief J11 used manifestation (was manifestation used by): F3 Manifestation J12**used (was used by): F5 Item Examples: §My adoption of the belief that Dragendorff type 29 bowls are from the 1st Century AD §Francesca Bologna’s adoption of Tacitus’ belief that Nero was not in Rome when the Great Fire started. (F. Bologna, 2021). [Francesca Bologna adopted Tacitus belief, of the only historian who was actually alive at the time of the Great Fire of Rome (although only 8 years old): "Nero at this time was at Antium and did not return to Rome until the fire approached his house" in : Tacitus, Publius Cornelius. The Annals. Book 15 [15.16].] See: https://www.britishmuseum.org/blog/who-was-nero, By Francesca Bologna, Nero Project Curator, Publication date: 22 April 2021. accessed 4/10/2023 -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Illustrating Presence, Issue 523
Dear All, I propose to illustrate the Presence construct with frst part of the travel of Humboldt to Venezuela: Take the travels of Alexander von Humboldt. Many of his whereabouts do not qualify as activities. Use as sources: http://www.whg-lu.de/is2000/avh/regenwald/suedamerikareise.htm (see Appendix, google translation) and “Alexander von Humboldt: Die Südamerika-Reise (Einzige von A. v. Humboldt autorisierte deutsche Ausgabe): Originaltitel: Reise in die Äquinoktial-Gegenden des Neuen Kontinents“ Actors: Aime Bonpland, Alexander von Humboldt 1799, June 5 to June 19: *MOVE* from from La Coruna, Spain to Tenerife island, Spain, 1799, June 20 to June 24 *PRESENCE* in Tenerife island, Spain, *PRESENCE* on Pico de Teide summit, meeting the Dragon Tree still *living today*. Existing Illustrations. 1799 June 25 to July 16 *MOVE* from from Tenerife island, Spain to Cumana, (today in Venezuela) 1799 July 17 to November 17 *PRESENCE* in Cumana, travel inland, *PRESENCE* in Cumana 1799 18. bis 21. Nov. *MOVE* from Cumana to Caracas (today in Venezuela) If this is regarded a good case, please give me feed back and help with graphics. I have read the complete publication in German on Kindle. All places and times in it are very precise. Other cases would be witnesses of olitical events, such as French Revolution, that happened to be in the city at respective times. Famous became the discovery of a diary of a mercenary in the sacking of Magdeburg, but the content has not yet been published. These uses of Presence allow for collecting material from people around important social developments. I do not have access to such cases, and would need help to find them. Best, Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group
Dear All, I suggest to extend the sense of /AP29 appears in/ to activity type. The current scope note (issue 294) talks about object types only. We can think of an "appears in" described by spacetime (E4 Period), "typically" using object types, /appearing under/ actor types, or "appearing within" Groups. The sense of "appears in" does not make claims that cannot be related to evidence. Opinions? On 3/10/2023 9:47 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: I agree. I think there is still an open discussion how to document such things, but the research questions could be formulated. I agree that we must not fall in the trap to produce artificial discrimination by crisp classes between things that are in constant flow and transition. I think a good vocabulary for *associating particular*, *intellectually related *phenomena, core and wider, with all the flexibility of generalization, specialization and faceting, and the *subjectivity of the classifying* documentalist, and *properties explicating* *evidential influence* (reported by participants or observed) would serve all requirements for documentation, search and discovery and wider research. We want not to say:" this is Tango" and "this is not", we want to say "this appears to be an early form of Argentinian Tango performance" "exhibits elements of" etc. I think we could talk about general "appearance" of such phenomena in a E4 Period X and comprising people of type Y, where the evidential particulars are the support of the wider statement, without claiming boundaries nor coverage within these limits. The phenomena would be particular, observable manifestations of various kinds, performances, scores, songs, poems, oral literature, costumes, social meetings etc. By the way, I think Tango is much more complex than Rembetiko. There may be quite different heterogeneous forms and communities, an international industry creating Tango apparel, training business etc. Rembetiko is still quite confined, has musical rythmic and stylistic characteristics and is not (much) commercialized. Best, Martin On 3/10/2023 9:42 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: It is as I wrote, an interesting question. The idea behind the development of the CRM is that it should be based on documented practice in the various disciplines and a be a formalization of this documented practice. It is not meant to be a general formal description of everything going on in the entire world. The use of fformal ontologies tends to push the documentation into structuralism. Structuralism is well suited as a basis for many things, but not all. Many cultural phenomena are better documented by free text essays. Best, Christian-Emil *From:* Crm-sig on behalf of Franco Niccolucci via Crm-sig *Sent:* 10 March 2023 07:48 *To:* Martin Doerr *Cc:* crm-sig@ics.forth.gr *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group Thank you all for your comments and contributions. None of the solutions proposed so far convinces me. Intangible heritage (Tango, for instance) is not the cumulation of many/all related activities/actors (Tango performances, Tango dancers, etc), which instead are related because they are all manifestations/performers of the same abstract concept. Rebetiko is even more difficult to characterize as it involves a particular lifestyle and individuals - the mangas in the past, perhaps now more a mood than a social class - and is often associated with the bouzouki. But of course it is not the mere addition of all this. I am not suggesting to study such concepts in greater detail, it may be off-topic. I think however that it is impossible to document monuments without addressing their intangible component. This came up when dealing with conservation: it is not just a matter to maintain their physical state, preserving their E3 Condition State which according to its scope note "describes the prevailing PHYSICAL condition of any material object”. Opening a Mac Donald in the Coliseum would not alter too much its E3, but would probably depreciate its value as a monument. best Franco http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group
I agree. I think there is still an open discussion how to document such things, but the research questions could be formulated. I agree that we must not fall in the trap to produce artificial discrimination by crisp classes between things that are in constant flow and transition. I think a good vocabulary for *associating particular*, *intellectually related *phenomena, core and wider, with all the flexibility of generalization, specialization and faceting, and the *subjectivity of the classifying* documentalist, and *properties explicating* *evidential influence* (reported by participants or observed) would serve all requirements for documentation, search and discovery and wider research. We want not to say:" this is Tango" and "this is not", we want to say "this appears to be an early form of Argentinian Tango performance" "exhibits elements of" etc. I think we could talk about general "appearance" of such phenomena in a E4 Period X and comprising people of type Y, where the evidential particulars are the support of the wider statement, without claiming boundaries nor coverage within these limits. The phenomena would be particular, observable manifestations of various kinds, performances, scores, songs, poems, oral literature, costumes, social meetings etc. By the way, I think Tango is much more complex than Rembetiko. There may be quite different heterogeneous forms and communities, an international industry creating Tango apparel, training business etc. Rembetiko is still quite confined, has musical rythmic and stylistic characteristics and is not (much) commercialized. Best, Martin On 3/10/2023 9:42 AM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: It is as I wrote, an interesting question. The idea behind the development of the CRM is that it should be based on documented practice in the various disciplines and a be a formalization of this documented practice. It is not meant to be a general formal description of everything going on in the entire world. The use of fformal ontologies tends to push the documentation into structuralism. Structuralism is well suited as a basis for many things, but not all. Many cultural phenomena are better documented by free text essays. Best, Christian-Emil *From:* Crm-sig on behalf of Franco Niccolucci via Crm-sig *Sent:* 10 March 2023 07:48 *To:* Martin Doerr *Cc:* crm-sig@ics.forth.gr *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group Thank you all for your comments and contributions. None of the solutions proposed so far convinces me. Intangible heritage (Tango, for instance) is not the cumulation of many/all related activities/actors (Tango performances, Tango dancers, etc), which instead are related because they are all manifestations/performers of the same abstract concept. Rebetiko is even more difficult to characterize as it involves a particular lifestyle and individuals - the mangas in the past, perhaps now more a mood than a social class - and is often associated with the bouzouki. But of course it is not the mere addition of all this. I am not suggesting to study such concepts in greater detail, it may be off-topic. I think however that it is impossible to document monuments without addressing their intangible component. This came up when dealing with conservation: it is not just a matter to maintain their physical state, preserving their E3 Condition State which according to its scope note "describes the prevailing PHYSICAL condition of any material object”. Opening a Mac Donald in the Coliseum would not alter too much its E3, but would probably depreciate its value as a monument. best Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence President, ARIADNE Research Infrastructure AISBL Chief Technology Officer 4CH Editor-in-Chief ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 9 mar 2023, alle ore 20:23, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig ha scritto: > > Dear All, > > I suggest to make a case study with Rebetiko. It is a relatively confined tradition and living. We have access to a lot of material here in Greece. By the way, we met a young lady from India who came to Greece and has learned to play Rebetiko. > > I think we should look at phenomena and people influencing each other, protagonists, etc., of varying types appearing in a cultural space and time, in particular concentrating at specific places and times. People meeting in these performances and carrying the idea forward. A certain "density" keeps it alive, like a species surviving. I agree with Franco. > > Best, > > Martin > > On 3/9/2023 8:00 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: >> Dear All, >> >> I think this is q
Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group
Dear All, I suggest to make a case study with Rebetiko. It is a relatively confined tradition and living. We have access to a lot of material here in Greece. By the way, we met a young lady from India who came to Greece and has learned to play Rebetiko. I think we should look at phenomena and people influencing each other, protagonists, etc., of varying types appearing in a cultural space and time, in particular concentrating at specific places and times. People meeting in these performances and carrying the idea forward. A certain "density" keeps it alive, like a species surviving. I agree with Franco. Best, Martin On 3/9/2023 8:00 PM, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, I think this is quite overstretching what an activity is. Of course we can make quick and dirty use of any class. I cannot imagine, how an "All Tango Performances" could be associated with a clear identity, unity and distinction from others. This would mean that any type of activity becomes an activity, isn't it? All specializations and generalizations would then be identical with part-of of activities? How would you then give an account of different strands of such traditions? This model virtually denies evolution and variation. I think that needs serious thought and a model which provides a much subtler relation between an idea, its execution and its evolution. Note, that any type is a Conceptual Object. Creating Tango as an E55 Type is a creation. I'd suggest to look at the new properties connecting Types with periods in which they appear. The challenge is, for me, not to provide a place to say "Tango is here", but to relate individual activities, performances, music, fashions, costumes etc along lines of evolution, variation and cross-fertalization. Best, Martin On 3/9/2023 6:33 PM, George Bruseker via Crm-sig wrote: I'm posting the following response text from Steve because the mailing list software tosses his messages out: Just a quick thought. As you mention a set of individual performances (E7 Activities) you could say that the individual performances (E7 Activity: performance of Tango on particular day/time and at a particular place) P9i/forms part of/a master E7 Activity (All Tango Performances). E7 Activity (All Tango Performances) P16/used specific object/E28 Conceptual Object(Intangible Heritage of the Tango). E7 Activity (All Tango Performances) P14/carried out by/E39 Actor(Tango Community) You could also say: E28 Conceptual Object(Intangible Heritage of the Tango) P94i/was created by/E65 Creation P14/carried out by/E39 Actor(Tango Community) This would make the community both the creator and performer of the intangible heritage: which I believe is the current "best practice". The timespan of the creation is of course open-ended as these are "living" traditions. HTH SdS On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:57 PM George Bruseker wrote: I'd use the term 'forms of life' instead of 'intangible heritage'. Then the likely closest CRM concept is E5 Event, at least if you want to be able to associate to actors in any direct way. E5 Event "Tango" p11 had participant E74 Group. Probably to be more expressive one would need an extension for social life! On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 3:18 PM Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: It is a good question. Also note that documentation of intangible cultural heritage is in most cases ttangible. According to UNESCO intangible cultural heritage is defined as Article 2 – Definitions For the purposes of this Convention, 1. The “intangible cultural heritage” means the practices, representations, expressions, knowledge, skills – as well as the instruments, objects, artefacts and cultural spaces associated therewith – that communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as part of their cultural heritage. This intangible cultural heritage, transmitted from generation to generation, is constantly recreated by communities and groups in response to their environment, their interaction with nature and their history, and provides them with a sense of identity and continuity, thus promoting respect for cultural diversity and human creativity. For the purposes of this Convention, consideration will be given solely to such intangible cultural heritage as is compatible with existing international human rights instruments, as well as with the requirements of mutual respect among communities, groups and individuals, and of sustainable development. 2. The “intangible cultural heritage”, as defined in paragraph 1 above, is manifested inter alia in the following domains: (a) oral traditions and expressions, incl
Re: [Crm-sig] Relation between E28 Conceptual Object and E74 Group
t) are referred to specific gatherings of people - commonly named “communities” in everyday's language - such as: Tango -> Argentina & Uruguay Rebetiko -> Greece Opera dei pupi (puppet theatre) -> Italy (Sicily) These geographic names in reality mean the people, the inhabitants (maybe not all of them): Argentinians, Uruguayos, Greeks, Sicilians i.e. the social groups who are the custodians/performers of these traditions. So two classes are involved 1) The group (Argentinians, Greeks, etc.) = E39 Actor 2) The conceptual object representing the intangible heritage (Tango, Rebetiko, etc.) = E28 Conceptual Object Note that intangibile heritage is NOT an activity, it is the abstraction of a set of activities and the way in which they are traditionally performed, which manifests through events/activities i.e. individual performances. Which property - if any - can be used to relate such E39 Actors to the corresponding E28? Thank you for any help on the above. Franco Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence President, ARIADNE Research Infrastructure AISBL Chief Technology Officer 4CH Editor-in-Chief ACM Journal of Computing and Cultural Heritage (JOCCH) Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] New CRMsci e-vote: label for S23
I vote YES, change. The point is that S23 describes implicitly the simultaneous measurements of the contributing parameters, typically two or three, necessary for a position determination and the resulting position. The contributing measurements may be specified explicitly as parts of it. But the resulting position is that at the time of observation *as *the observed values suggest, and *not any *calculation of a position of something at a different time and place. If the resulting position is calculated at a bit later time exclusively from the observed values, is not relevant. Modern GIS systems do not give details, but also historical records often do not. E.g. "The position measured by Alexander von Humboldt for the Plaza Mayor in Cumaná, Sucre, Venezuela 1799-1800AD (E53) place is defined by 10°27'52"N 66°30'02"W (Example for P168)." Humboldt refers to the measurement only like that "in this night I could observe some stars to determine the position of..." and the position. He mentions how he was maintaining his clock, one of the best of his time. Best, Martin On 3/4/2023 8:13 PM, Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, Many thanks to those of you who voted for the CRMsci examples in the last e-vote which will be added to the document. In the process of discussing these examples with several of you, there was a strong view that the current label of S23 Position Measurement is confusing. I appreciate that the role of labels is to reminder us of the scope note and in general we avoid arguing too much about them. I would not normally call for an e-vote on a label, but this is the first time that S23 is formalised in a stable CRMsci version so it is worth getting it right so that we do not have to change it. The proposal is to change the label, from: S23 Position Measurement to: S23 Position Determination S23 is not a measurement in the sense of S21. Including the word "measurement" in the label will confuse people referring to this class. Please vote YES if you agree with this change. Please vote NO if you disagree giving some rationale. If we go ahead with this change, it will mean that some editorial changes are necessary in other parts of the document for consistency which Athina and I are happy to do. Many thanks for your patience with this version of CRMsci. We are very nearly there. All the best, Thanasis ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] New e-vote for CRMsci: examples for position measurement
e initial distress signal was sent (S23) /measured position of/ the Titanic (E22) (Halpern, 2011) • The measurement of the position of the Titanic by Robert Ballard's team after the Titanic ship-wreck was found (S23) /measured position of/ the Titanic. [More precisely it measured the centre of the ‘boiler field’ of Titanic’s debris] (E22) (Ballard et al., 1987) *Revised works cited:* Ballard, R.D. (1987) /The Discovery of the Titanic/. Warner. Boxhall, J. (1962) ‘Joseph Groves Boxhall - Radio Interview’. Available at: https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/boxhall.html (Accessed: 10 February 2023). Halpern, S. (2011) ‘Chronology of events with references and notes’, in /Report into the loss of the SS Titanic: a centennial reappraisal/. Stroud, Gloucestershire [U.K.]: History Press. *Figure 10* * * Figure 10 has been modified accordingly to reflect the time-span validity of the collision as in the examples. Many thanks for taking the time to improve and review these examples. Looking forward to concluding version 2.0. All the best, Thanasis and Athina ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] New issue: property quantification mismatches
Dear All, I think this should go for an e-vote, update to include future 7.1.3. Best, Martin On 2/6/2023 12:41 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, There are some properties where the text version and the number version of their property quantification do not match. Since both should express the same information, either the text version or the number version (or both) must be wrong. Martin and I have worked to resolve these cases. Results: P10 many to many, necessary, dependent (1,n:1,n) P81 many to many, necessary (1,n:0,n) P89 many to many, necessary, dependent (1,n:1,n) P99 one to many, necessary (1,n:0,1) P161 many to many, necessary (1,n:0,n) P187 one to many, necessary (1,n:0,1) P188 many to many (0,n:0,n) P191 many to one, necessary (1,1:0,n) P198 many to many (0,n:0,n) Details see here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1p4Ew-vKigz5Lm3H69nrlbk2Xfe8gioun87COJmKFfXY/edit#gid=307539608 Best, Wolfgang ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Property quantifications
Dear Wolfgang, Yes, property quantifiers can be encoded in FOL, and Carlo Meghini has provided a complete list of equivalent statements. The expressions were unwieldy and do not provide further inside for the non-expert reader. Incomplete information is a problem if a property is defined as necessary, but is unknown. Ontologically, this property must then exist, even it may be unknown. In implementations, it cannot be provided when unknown. Alternative opinions are not ontological. They are what we know, but not what is. What makes them alternative is, is that there is no possible world in which they can both exist. On their own, they do not constitute an impossible world. Carlo Meghini has written about alternative and negative knowledge. If you cannot find the respective references, I can search for them. All the best, Martin On 1/13/2023 2:02 PM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, Property quantifications are statements about existence and uniqueness. For example, in the quantifier “(1,n:0,1)” the “1,n” is an existence statement (“for any allowed x there exists an y”) and the “0,1” is a uniqueness statement (“for any allowed y there is at most one x”). These statements can be encoded as first-order logic (FOL) axioms. However, quantifications come with a caveat: Quantifiers for properties are provided for the purpose of semantic clarification only, and should not be treated as implementation recommendations. The CIDOC CRM has been designed to accommodate alternative opinions and incomplete information, and therefore all properties should be implemented as optional and repeatable for their domain and range (“many to many (0,n:0,n)”). Therefore, the term “cardinality constraints” is avoided here, as it typically pertains to implementations. What is the ontological status of the property quantifications? Can they be encoded as FOL, or not? Incomplete information is not a problem for the FOL. Are alternative opinions a problem or are they also only relevant for implementations? For more details see here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/11bue0Rakrekmcke-MkZqprfq0FXy5LkRMTl_VDynS5E/edit# Best, Wolfgang ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email: mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site: http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] E-vote for CRMsci 2.0
r vote NO and explain which ones are not good enough. For minor issues that you picked up please vote YES with a note for the correction. All the best, Thanasis ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
[Crm-sig] Seasons Greetings
Dear All, Best seasons greetings to all of you, and a Happy New Year, hopefully with more peace, more human respect and more awareness of the cultural values of all nations. I am hoping to see many of you in our next meetings. Martin -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] new ISSUE: O13 "triggers" scope note
Dear All, I think we need to reconsider this. The examples somehow make clear that the triggering event to be finished by the time the triggered event starts is incidental and not essential the the intended meaning. I now support an interpretation that the triggering event is essentially of *different nature *from the triggered one. I think we need a spatiotemporal *overlap* of the triggering event with the beginning of the triggered event. Without diving into STVs, it appears to me that /P176 starts before the start of and//P173i ends after or with the start of /is the best definition. In STV thinking, the triggered event should also not contain areas that occur locally before all neighbouring areas and do not overlap with the triggering event. I.e., and event could start at two different places and then merge into one, but only one starting area would be triggered. That does not make sense. best, Martin On 12/20/2022 6:49 PM, Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Indeed and the original questions raised were about the phrase in the introduction "The association of the two events is based on their temporal proximity, i.e. the triggering event ends when the triggered event starts." I think the examples mentioned in the scope note indicate a temporal relationship of: P176 starts before the start of than the agreed: P182 ends before or with the start of Even in the case of, say, a spring-loaded mousetrap, it would be difficult to tell that the event of stepping on the trip (of the trap) is completed before the spring is released. So we either explain the event splitting approach or opt for the safer option of P176. All the best, Thanasis P.S. I think any change would need to go to 2.1. On 08/12/2022 11:18, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, O13 "triggers" in CRMsci requires the triggering event to be finished by the time the triggered event starts. In the example of rainfall causing a landslide in the scope note, it would mean that continuing rainfall has to be split up into the part before the landslide and after the landslide. This is not obvious and needs to be reflected in the scope note. One example for O13 is the 1966 flood in Florence triggering mould growth on books stored in flooded library rooms. I read this to claim that the mould growth started only after the flood had receded completely, which I find a strong claim. However, Steve argued that the cited source does not contain information about the mould starting to grow while the flood was still ongoing. Other examples we discussed were: * an asthmatic in a room full of cats, triggering an asthma attack while still being in the room * an earthquake triggering the destruction of houses: It is not realistic to split up the earthquake event into parts for each destroyed house. Best, Wolfgang ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] P133 spatiotemporally separated from
Dear Wolfgang, Good question! In order not to confuse things, we cannot make stements about the future, in whatever form. The question about "ongoing" STVs and Temporal Entities of whatever kind, be it physical things, periods of events, needs a different treatment. The important information to distinguish is, if a temporal outer limit is "after the reported observation", or ends with it. Currently we cannot distinguish both cases. In the past, I had proposed a sort of "infinite" interval, but I think that does not work. May be we should use a sub or superproperty of P82b and P81b, a sort of "*P82b_before_end_of_the_end*" to report that up to this date, the STV or E2 needs not have ended, and "*P81b_before_begin_of_the_end*" to report that up to this date, the STV or E2 has not yet ended. Any more recent report would supersede the previous one. The problem with P133 as I see it is, that it is a negation, which requires a complete observation, or other physical constraints. That is not a problem per se, but noteworthy. It is prone to non-monotonic update. Indeed, my body's STV was "spatiotemporally separated from" the state of Japan until 1983, when I went there. Only two ongoing STVs may overlap in the future, but this can be trivial. For many instances of STV, complete observation is not a problem, therefore the property appears to be justified. So, I think the FOL is correct, and we have to discuss this generally under negative knowledge. On 12/17/2022 11:58 AM, Wolfgang Schmidle via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, Since we want to deprecate properties such as "has current owner" where true statements may become wrong in the future, I was wondering about P133 "spatiotemporally separated from". If both STVs are still ongoing, such as the STVs defined by two objects that still exist, I think a P133 statement that is correct as of now may become wrong in the future, too. How to deal with this? Or is it unlikely that this situation will occur in practice? If this property holds for two instances of E92 Spacetime Volume then it cannot be the case that P132 spatiotemporally overlaps with also holds for the same two instances. P133(x,y) ⇒ ¬P132(x,y) Furthermore, there are cases where neither P132 spatiotemporally overlaps with nor P133 is spatiotemporally separated from holds between two instances of E92 Spacetime Volume. This would occur where only an overlap of the fuzzy boundaries of the two instances of E92 Spacetime Volume occurs and no other evidence is available. (∃x,y) [E92(x) ∧ E92(y) ∧ ¬P132(x,y) ∧ ¬P133(x,y)] If there are two concrete x and y that are not ongoing and where ¬P132(x,y) ∧ ¬P133(x,y) is true, will it always stay true or can it also become wrong in the future, for example when more evidence becomes available? See above 😁 The P132 scope note contains the same statements, so the axioms would need to be repeated for P132: P132(x,y) ⇒ ¬P133(x,y) (∃x,y) [E92(x) ∧ E92(y) ∧ ¬P132(x,y) ∧ ¬P133(x,y)] Would it make sense to say something like this in the P132 scope note instead: "For the relationship with P133 see there"? Sure, if that helps. This property is not transitive. (∃x,y,z) [E92(x) ∧ E92(y) ∧ E92(z) ∧ P132(x,y) ∧ P132(y,z) ∧ ¬P132(x,z)] (∃x,y,z) [E92(x) ∧ E92(y) ∧ E92(z) ∧ P133(x,y) ∧ P133(y,z) ∧ ¬P133(x,z)] P133(x,y) ⇒ P133(x,y) This seems to be an oversight? (Also in P132.) What is the oversight? Best, Martin Best, Wolfgang ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 624, linguistic Appellation
I am working on that! Best, Martin On 12/16/2022 11:27 AM, George Bruseker wrote: Dear both, I'm too covidy still to follow this in detail but I think the issue was left, for the notes to show, for Martin to provide an example to show the problem he sees that we cannot see. Cheers, George -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Issue 624, linguistic Appellation
Dear Robert, On 12/15/2022 4:57 PM, Robert Sanderson wrote: This doesn't meet the requirements, unfortunately. To my best understanding, and of others on this list, it has not made sufficiently clear so far by you which semantics the linguistic Appellation should comprise. Following our methodology, requirements must be backed up by representative examples that allow for narrowing down the senses to be comprised. The do not come from authority. Most examples provided so far did not demonstrate the independence of the language specificity of the Appellation from the individual identified by it, but exactly the opposite. The difference is a matter of fundamental logic of semantic networks, and cannot be ignored. Examples must be sufficiently representative for a large set of data. TGN, for instance, is huge, and domainßinstance specific. VIAF refers to national libraries, not to languages. "The Big Apple" is a rather rare case of a complete English noun phrase used as a place name, which exactly fits the scope note of E41. It could be documented as Title. Transliteration, you mentioned, does not create a language specificity, but a script specificity. Please respect that it belongs to our method to discuss, if the sense of an original submission actually represents the best semantics fit for purpose, and to modify it if needed. I simply act here, as any CRM-SIG member should, as a knowledge engineer based on the examples you and others provided and try to propose the most adequate solution, and not to defend any position. I do not have any other project of my own. Please stay in your answers on the level of arguments based on representative examples and their interpretation. sdh:C11 is a temporal entity -- the state of being named something -- and not a name itself. While interesting, as previously States have been widely decreed as an anti-pattern to be avoided, it does not meet the requirements set forth for E33_E41, which is that an Appellation itself can have a Language. Indeed I may not describe C11 as a State in the sense we discussed it. It is as timeless as all our properties of persistent items. States are better avoided if temporal inner bounds are to be given, because they require complete observation, a sort of Closed World. This is not the case here. But this distracts from the question to what the language here pertains. To repeat, if E33_41 is to enter unmodified CRMbase as you propose, it needs a scope note and examples that disambiguate scope and senses. Then, *it must* be differentiated from domain-instance specific use, and the relevance of the remaining scope must be argued. All examples must be discussed and voted for. Rather than an anonymous "requirement set forth", I definitely would like to see your examples of use of E33_41 in your applications. Is that possible? Are you sure they fit the independence from the domain instance? Are you sure there will be no abuse in the sense I, Francesco and LRM propose? Best, Martin So I believe that this does not solve the problem as stated - that E33_E41_Linguistic_Appellation does not have a description outside of the RDFS document. Rob On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 3:54 PM Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear Francesco, dear George, After the discussion in the last CRM SIG meeting, I propose to follow Francesco's "sdh:C11 Appellation in a Language <https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> class." as *a longpath for P1*. I propose to generalize the context. It could be a language, it could be a country, a Group. I propose to analyze, if this can be mapped or identified with LRM Nomen and its properties. It can further be made compatible with the RDF labels with a language tag, which are domain instance specific and not range specific, and of course can represent the TGN language attributes. For VIAF, we would need a "national" context, i.e., the national library. Best, Martin On Sat, 12 Nov 2022, 2:43 pm Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig, wrote: Dear Martin, all Sorry to intervene so late in this interesting exchange, I was away for some days and I'm going through my emails now. I encountered the same questions while working a few years ago in a history project interested in the evolution of the use of names and surnames. The approach of the project was similar to the one presented by Martin below and amounted to saying that it is difficult to state to which language a first name, or surname, belongs in itself, except for some cases or if we consider the region of origin, but what is relevant is that this specific string of characters is used at a given time (and attested in the sources) in a language or in another (i.e. in a society
[Crm-sig] Issue 624, linguistic Appellation
Dear Francesco, dear George, After the discussion in the last CRM SIG meeting, I propose to follow Francesco's "sdh:C11 Appellation in a Language <https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> class." as *a longpath for P1*. I propose to generalize the context. It could be a language, it could be a country, a Group. I propose to analyze, if this can be mapped or identified with LRM Nomen and its properties. It can further be made compatible with the RDF labels with a language tag, which are domain instance specific and not range specific, and of course can represent the TGN language attributes. For VIAF, we would need a "national" context, i.e., the national library. Best, Martin On Sat, 12 Nov 2022, 2:43 pm Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig, wrote: Dear Martin, all Sorry to intervene so late in this interesting exchange, I was away for some days and I'm going through my emails now. I encountered the same questions while working a few years ago in a history project interested in the evolution of the use of names and surnames. The approach of the project was similar to the one presented by Martin below and amounted to saying that it is difficult to state to which language a first name, or surname, belongs in itself, except for some cases or if we consider the region of origin, but what is relevant is that this specific string of characters is used at a given time (and attested in the sources) in a language or in another (i.e. in a society speaking this language) to identify a person or an object. To capture the information envisaged in the project in the sense of this approach I decided to stick to the substance of crm:E41 Appellation class: "This class comprises signs, either meaningful or not, or arrangements of signs following a specific syntax, that are used or can be used to refer to and identify a specific instance of some class or category within a certain context. Instances of E41 Appellation do not identify things by their meaning, even if they happen to have one, but _instead by convention, tradition, or agreement_." (CRM 6.2). and to add in what has become the SDHSS CRM unofficial extension the sdh:C11 Appellation in a Language <https://ontome.net/class/365/namespace/3> class. This class has as you'll see a clear social, i.e. intentional flavor, and captures the information that some appellation is considered as a valid appellation of a thing in a language (i.e. society speaking his language) during an attested time-span. This was also an attempt to cope with the frbroo:F52 Name Use Activity issue: 413 Pursuit and Name Use Activity to CRMsoc <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-413-pursuit-and-name-use-activity-to-crmsoc> 573 CRMsoc & F51 Pursuit & F52 Name Use Activity <https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-573-crmsoc-f51-pursuit-f52-name-use-activity> which is somewhat slowed down by the ongoing exchanges around the nature and substance of the social world as foundation of the CRMsoc extension. But one could easily provide another substance to an /Appellation in a Language/ class making it a Name Use Activity (in a Language) class (and subclass of crm:E13 Attribute Assignment <https://ontome.net/class/13/namespace/1> or crm:E7 Activity). This would be in my opinion a good way of coping with the wish expressed by George at the beginning of this exchange to "make [this kind of classes] full classes in the standard so that they are fully vetted and controlled. It is a fundamental class. It should be in the standard in the first place", wish that I definitely share. And also to stick, as far as I can understand, to the modelling principles reminded by Martin. And it would also finally solve the issues still open, to my knowledge, concerning the original FRBR-oo class. Best Francesco -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] Homework for Issue 624
Dear All, I think this is a good proposal what concerns the Appellation itself. If solves the names of universals and the personal name provenance. It does however not reflect the appellations for specific instances in a given language, such as the ten thousands in the TGN. The subtle point is that rdf label is private to the domain instance, as is LRM Nomen. Therefore the RDF language tags on labels are not on the Appellation, but on the link instance, and hence cannot be transferred to such a model. Using a range property instead of a link property is a logical error, because it creates non-sensical associations. Which of all these do we want, and how to model the latter? Best, Martin On 12/6/2022 2:11 PM, Francesco Beretta via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, Reconsidering the whole exchanges in this issue, and the examples, notably those by Martin on November 9th, it appears that the information we want to model is: this instance of E41 Appellation (i.e. a name as identifier of an entity) is *used* in this language (E56) — formerly or now, this is another topic. So, the simplest solution (as a shortcut of longer ones but making sense in the context of the examples brought by George) is to add a property: E41 Appellation --> is (was ?) used in --> E56 Language. This solution avoids adding persistent item classes, which is somehow cumbersome, it copes with the problem and brings the information to the conceptual model in a concise and stringent way, without engaging in the ontological discussion about the language in which an appellation *is* (was created in this language, is used as such, etc. etc.). The substance of the property, given all the examples you brought, seems to be quite clear: we can observe (through text and speach acts) that an appellation is used in a language as a valid identifier of an entity. Best Francesco Le 05.12.22 à 08:51, George Bruseker via Crm-sig a écrit : Dear all, Issue 624 can be found here: https://cidoc-crm.org/Issue/ID-624-add-e33e41linguisticappellation-to-the-official-specification The discussion revolves around adding a class to the specification and not just the rdfs which represents the phenomenon of names being in languages. The homework for the issue can be found in this google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-l6OrEy8I3doP5cCm5dTzLav6SwE2prxBtpPxpqBhaA/edit?usp=sharing Best, George ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig
Re: [Crm-sig] issue 534Shortcuts, .1-properties and the long paths
I agree with: So we need to add (6) P125(x,y,w) ⇒ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] That is, if an activity x, uses things of type y in the mode of w then there exists a thing used in x in the mode of w and the type of x is y. But now we need to take into consideration that the short path has a .1-property and we add P125(x,y,w) ⇐ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] 😁 On 12/1/2022 12:02 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: Thank you for your comment. The second argument of the P125 is the type of things used in an activity. Still the type of an object is not equal to the way such an object is used in an activity. Trilobite fossils can be used in the production of a jewellery as a mold. (My daughter has one in gilded silver). This is an argument for a P125.1 mode of use. The technicalities: P16(x,z,w) is the current notation for P16.1(x,z,w) (1) for all w P16(x,z,w) ⇒ P16(x,z) and we already have declared the axiom (2) P125(x,y) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z) ∧ P2(z,y)] and (3) below can be deduced from (1) and (2): (3) P125(x,y) ⇐ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] The other way is not so easy since (5) below cannot be deduced from (2) since the fact that a specific thing is used in an activity does not imply that this thing is used in the mode of used described by any instance of E55 Type which would have been the case if (4) were universally true. (4)P16(x,z) ⇒ P16(x,z,y) (5) P125(x,y) ⇒ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,y) ∧ P2(z,y)] So we need to add (6) P125(x,y,w) ⇒ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] That is, if an activity x, uses things of type y in the mode of w then there exists a thing used in x in the mode of w and the type of x is y. But now we need to take into consideration that the short path has a .1-property and we add P125(x,y,w) ⇐ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)] I hope this is correct. Christian-Emil *From:* Crm-sig on behalf of Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* 30 November 2022 16:11 *To:* crm-sig@ics.forth.gr *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] issue 534Shortcuts, .1-properties and the long paths OK, 😁, If I understand correctly, the "w" should just be propagated in both directions. If P125, nothing tells us that the unknown z is the same as one possibly in a full path of the same activity. Nothing tells us why there should not be more than one "w" for the same z. Is that what you mean? I'd support creating such a P125.1. Best, Martin On 11/30/2022 3:57 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: B: Typo: P125 should be P125.1 in the bold phrase. "The implication from the long path to the shortcut is ok since the shortcut has no .1-property. The implication from the shortcut to the long path is problematic since there is a .1-property in the long path. It is possible to imagine that the shortcut could have a P125.1 mode of use:E55 Type, but *the range instance of P16.1 and P125.1 must be identical *so the following additional FOL axiom would have to be added: P125(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)]" *From:* Crm-sig on behalf of Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* 30 November 2022 14:35 *To:* crm-sig@ics.forth.gr *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] issue 534Shortcuts, .1-properties and the long paths Dear Christian-Emil, I agree with your precise analysis, except for: A) I'd argue that P138.1 mode of representation is indeed identical to P62.1. Simply, similar examples have not been provided. I suggest a FOL for that. "P138.1 mode of representation seems to be unrelated to P62.1 mode of depiction. Conclusion Neither of the .1-properties in the long path are semantically related to the .1-property of the shortcut property. Since P62 is declared as a shortcut of the long path, it cannot have the .1-property." I agree that P67.1 is unrelated. The kind of reference of a P138 instance would be "represents". This is implicit I think in the explanation of .1 properties of "has type"-type in the introduction. Could be a new issue. B) "The implication from the long path to the shortcut is ok since the shortcut has no .1-property. The implication from the shortcut to the long path is problematic since there is a .1-property in the long path. It is possible to imagine that the shortcut could have a P125.1 mode of use:E55 Type, but *the range instance of P16.1 and P125 must be identical *so the following additional FOL axiom would have to be added: P125(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)]" I have not understood why "the range instance of P16.1 and P125 must be identical ". E.g., used "passiflora racemosa flower", mode of use "as model", (Martin Johnson Heade, "Hummingbirds and Passionflowers", ca 1870-1883,
Re: [Crm-sig] ISSUE 609 Homework
Dear Thanasis Yes,it is about Issue 610, but it is also an epistemological background for an interface to CRMinf (Issue 609), where we would need to study how such arguments can be documented. Best, Martin On 11/24/2022 3:17 PM, Athanasios Velios via Crm-sig wrote: Thank you for this analysis Martin. I would argue that this is for issue 610 - I have included it in the working document for that issue to discuss. All the best, Thanasis On 22/11/2022 17:43, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig wrote: Dear All, "In the 54th CIDOC CRM & 47th FRBR/LRMoo SIG Meeting, upon discussing the presentation <https://cidoc-crm.org/Resources/typed-and-negative-typed-properties-multiple-individuals-and-negation-in-the-cidoc-crm>by Thanasis Velios on Typed and Negative Typed Properties, the SIG resolved to start a new issue, where to discuss expressing the idea that an object has been completely observed and has been dound to lack a certain feature. This fact forces a closed-world assumption on the object of documentation. Rome, September 2022" I have promised to present some ideas we had discussed in the past in the context of biodiversity, about observation proving that some species is extinct, or in archaeology, about the absence of some phenomenon. Typical examples are the *unnoticed survival* of the sea otter in the Monterey area of California in a small bay, and the so far *unique find* of gears from whole antiquity in the Antikythera Mechanism - people would not have put such things in graves. Another example is the lack of fish bones in Minoan culture - they are simply not preserved in the Cretan climate. The Negative Typed Property states that the domain has no relation to *any instance* of the referred *type*. We can argue, that a reasonable assessment of non-existence should imply: *A)* the respective potential instances must have a reasonable likelihood to be *preserved *to the time of observation at least in traces. *B)* the applied method of observation must be suitable to *detect* them, in particular traces. C) the domain instance, the one lacking the relation, must be observed with sufficient *density and coverage*. C1) In case of species, there are arguments about minimal populations and the areas they would roam about, so that the observation density needs not be complete coverage. Similar arguments may apply to archaeological object types. The issue second to be discussed is the time of validity. A) Eternal: A1) The domain object under investigation has never had such a relation since its begin of existence. This is a question of temporal coverage, or of proof that traces would still exist, or that that the object had not the possibility until the end of observation. These senses produce a sort of being "current", up to the time of last observation. A2) The domain object under investigation has never had such a relation since its begin of existence and will not have until its end, such as putting wheels on a piece of cloth, or putting leaf markers in ancient books in a museum, or in investigating remains of past objects or a past activity/ extinct culture, or the *instances of the related type* do no more exist. B) From some time on: The domain object under investigation has lost such a relation. This is characteristic for extinction. The species cannot be recreated. Similarly for any type with instances that do no more exits after the referred time of loss and end of observation. C) For the period of observation only. For the time being, we can state that the meaning is always at least C), and there may be arguments for more. If a negative property held before some time, we have to think more about it. Probably, a good practice will be to associate an observation with the negative property. So far my ideas. Best, Martin -- -------- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- ---- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vo
Re: [Crm-sig] issue 534Shortcuts, .1-properties and the long paths
OK, 😁, If I understand correctly, the "w" should just be propagated in both directions. If P125, nothing tells us that the unknown z is the same as one possibly in a full path of the same activity. Nothing tells us why there should not be more than one "w" for the same z. Is that what you mean? I'd support creating such a P125.1. Best, Martin On 11/30/2022 3:57 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: B: Typo: P125 should be P125.1 in the bold phrase. "The implication from the long path to the shortcut is ok since the shortcut has no .1-property. The implication from the shortcut to the long path is problematic since there is a .1-property in the long path. It is possible to imagine that the shortcut could have a P125.1 mode of use:E55 Type, but *the range instance of P16.1 and P125.1 must be identical *so the following additional FOL axiom would have to be added: P125(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)]" *From:* Crm-sig on behalf of Martin Doerr via Crm-sig *Sent:* 30 November 2022 14:35 *To:* crm-sig@ics.forth.gr *Subject:* Re: [Crm-sig] issue 534Shortcuts, .1-properties and the long paths Dear Christian-Emil, I agree with your precise analysis, except for: A) I'd argue that P138.1 mode of representation is indeed identical to P62.1. Simply, similar examples have not been provided. I suggest a FOL for that. "P138.1 mode of representation seems to be unrelated to P62.1 mode of depiction. Conclusion Neither of the .1-properties in the long path are semantically related to the .1-property of the shortcut property. Since P62 is declared as a shortcut of the long path, it cannot have the .1-property." I agree that P67.1 is unrelated. The kind of reference of a P138 instance would be "represents". This is implicit I think in the explanation of .1 properties of "has type"-type in the introduction. Could be a new issue. B) "The implication from the long path to the shortcut is ok since the shortcut has no .1-property. The implication from the shortcut to the long path is problematic since there is a .1-property in the long path. It is possible to imagine that the shortcut could have a P125.1 mode of use:E55 Type, but *the range instance of P16.1 and P125 must be identical *so the following additional FOL axiom would have to be added: P125(x,y,w) ⇔ (∃z) [E70(z) ∧ P16(x,z,w) ∧ P2(z,y)]" I have not understood why "the range instance of P16.1 and P125 must be identical ". E.g., used "passiflora racemosa flower", mode of use "as model", (Martin Johnson Heade, "Hummingbirds and Passionflowers", ca 1870-1883, Museum of Fine Arts Boston, https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/hummingbird-and-passionflowers/LAEr7eIcfErZwg?hl=en-GB&ms=%7B%22x%22%3A0.5%2C%22y%22%3A0.5%2C%22z%22%3A8.643661874326806%2C%22size%22%3A%7B%22width%22%3A3.2807205935359844%2C%22height%22%3A1.2375%7D%7D) a typical case for the ten thousands of botanical images from European botanical researchers in the previous centuries. Funny example is John James Audubon: He reportedly shot a bird in 1812 in Pennsylvania, named it "Regulus cuvieri", painted it probably with an error in "Birds of America", so that this species was never seen again. Best, Martin On 11/30/2022 1:35 PM, Christian-Emil Smith Ore via Crm-sig wrote: Dear all, My HW can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kd-zCO8e00WoKWb-9VAm96ECDEA2O_1iFI6kpgcuCnE <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kd-zCO8e00WoKWb-9VAm96ECDEA2O_1iFI6kpgcuCnE> Best, Christian-Emil ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl _______ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig -- Dr. Martin Doerr Honorary Head of the Center for Cultural Informatics Information Systems Laboratory Institute of Computer Science Foundation for Research and Technology - Hellas (FORTH) N.Plastira 100, Vassilika Vouton, GR70013 Heraklion,Crete,Greece Vox:+30(2810)391625 Email:mar...@ics.forth.gr Web-site:http://www.ics.forth.gr/isl ___ Crm-sig mailing list Crm-sig@ics.forth.gr http://lists.ics.forth.gr/mailman/listinfo/crm-sig