[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Ditto, 

 

 Spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth. 

 Saha Nav,
 


 satyam bruyat, priyam bruyat   speak the truth, speak sweetly
na bruyat satyam apriyam |  don't speak truth in an unloving way
priyam ca nanritam bruyat   don't speak untruth in a pleasant way
esha dharmah sanatanah ||   this is the eternal law 
 


 Or, TM Saha Nav: never do we speak negativity, never do we denounce anyone,
 

 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
 
 

 Apostasy is just wrong thinking clearly getting over the line.  Or as the 
Shakers would have said in their way, Out of Union with the Gospel.
 
 -Buck  
 

 An apostate of course is different from someone just being a critic. The 
critic, who as a satisfied and regular practitioner may offer some criticism as 
in a state of critique. Such critique is then also quite different in grade 
from those others being more negative and then again from states of pernicious 
negativity advocacy, like those people who are both quitters and haters in 
method. That becomes a pretty clear sign of someone who has fallen in to TM 
apostasy. 
 We should be mindful and clear about this as we filter our reading and 
interacting with our fellow community members here. That is justly good and 
sound subtle spirituality. Yes, like considering the source of posts I 
certainly sort my incoming mail accordingly. Om we should have, we could have 
better sorted the FFL membership here accordingly from way back with more 
aggressive moderation against the apostaic spam of outright apostasy here. 
Posting on FFL should be held a privilege and not just some right. Saha Nav,
 
 -Buck, a Satisfied Customer by the Practise of Maharishi's Transcendental 
Meditation Programme   
 

 

 Yes, that 'Disaffiliation';   Friends, for any of us we certainly know an 
apostate when we see one. For instance, with The Science of Creative 
Intelligence of which TM is the practical application. Seeing as US 
jurisprudence judges SCI to be a Religion it would not be a stretch to say that 
people who would renounce TM just by dropping or quitting the practice of said 
meditation and who then promote publicly against TM with an advocacy of 
negativity are in fact in an apostate state: apostate, as apostates in 
apostasy. Q.E.D., TM Apostates.
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:

 As I'm pretty sure both Xeno and Barry know, apostasy is not limited to 
defection from a religion. One can become an apostate from any previous loyalty.
 

  'Apostasy is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation 
  of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy is known as an 
  apostate.' 
 
 As I never was the member of any religion, I cannot ever be correctly accused 
 of apostasy. As the TM org claims it is not a religion, so no one can ever be 
 correctly accused for disafilliating or abandoning TM as apostasy (unless of 
 course the TM org is lying about that claim). 

 It's an NPD Thang, Xeno. If you've convinced yourself that the POV held by 
your self is true, and that any POV that contradicts it is is untrue, then 
you get to make up the rules. There is absolutely *no problem* with declaring 
someone an apostate from an organization that you declare is not a religion. :-)

It's a lot like having an argument in which there is only one participant -- 
the person trying to start the argument -- and then declaring one's self the 
winner. :-)

Narcissistic Personality Disorder really *does* explain almost all of the 
aberrant behavior we see on FFL. I would suggest that this mental disorder is 
the true legacy of Maharishi's teachings. 

 







:-)















Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Transcendental Mediation is not a religion.  - Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

Doug Hamilton is an increasingly senile cultist who thinks that anyone who 
criticizes something he likes is a terrorist. - Sensible Americans Today, 
October 24 edition




 From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 1:32 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 


  
Ditto,



Spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth.


Saha Nav,
 satyam bruyat, priyam bruyat  
speak the truth, speak sweetly
na bruyat satyam apriyam | 
don't speak truth in an unloving way
priyam ca nanritam
bruyat  
don't speak untruth in a pleasant way
esha dharmah sanatanah
||   this
is the eternal law 


Or, TM Saha Nav: never do we speak negativity, never do we denounce anyone,

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 

Apostasy is just wrong thinking clearly getting over
the line.  Or as the Shakers would have said in their way, Out of Union with 
the Gospel.
-Buck  



An apostate of course is
different from someone just being a critic. The critic, who as a
satisfied and regular practitioner may offer some criticism as in
a state of critique.  Such critique is then also quite different in
grade from those others being more negative and then again from
states of pernicious negativity advocacy, like those people who are
both quitters and haters in method.  That becomes a pretty clear sign
of someone who has fallen in to TM apostasy. 
We should be mindful and
clear about this as we filter our reading and interacting with our fellow 
community members
here.  That is justly good and sound subtle spirituality.   Yes, like
considering the source of posts I certainly sort my incoming mail
accordingly.  Om we should have, we could have better sorted the FFL
membership here accordingly from way back with more aggressive
moderation against the apostaic spam of outright apostasy here.
Posting on FFL should be held a privilege and not just some right.
Saha Nav,
-Buck, a Satisfied Customer by the Practise of Maharishi's Transcendental 
Meditation Programme   


Yes, that 'Disaffiliation';   Friends, for any of us we certainly know an 
apostate when we see one.
For instance, with The Science of Creative Intelligence of which TM
is the practical application.  Seeing as US jurisprudence judges SCI
to be a Religion it would not be a stretch to say that people who
would renounce TM just by dropping or quitting the practice of said
meditation and who then promote publicly against TM with an advocacy
of negativity are in fact in an apostate state: apostate, as
apostates in apostasy.  Q.E.D., TM Apostates.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Barry is going to town with this smoking gun, he thinks he's found.  Trying to 
indict the whole TMO with an extreme comment by one of its members. 

 I predict this will be a ho hum incident for anyone excepting Barry, and 
likely Michael.
 

 Although Michael, has maintained a bit of lower profile lately.
 

 Yes, this must certainly be Barry's best day of the year, capping his 20 year 
effort to get someone to recognize a extreme view of a chat room participant.
 

 Let's give it up for Barry.  (or at least a Bronx cheer)  (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Transcendental Mediation is not a religion.  - Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
 

 Doug Hamilton is an increasingly senile cultist who thinks that anyone who 
criticizes something he likes is a terrorist. - Sensible Americans Today, 
October 24 edition

 

 From: dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 1:32 PM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 
 
   Ditto,
 

 


 Spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth. 

 Saha Nav,
 satyam bruyat, priyam bruyat   speak the truth, speak sweetly
na bruyat satyam apriyam |  don't speak truth in an unloving way
priyam ca nanritam bruyat   don't speak untruth in a pleasant way
esha dharmah sanatanah ||   this is the eternal law 
 


 Or, TM Saha Nav: never do we speak negativity, never do we denounce anyone,
 

 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
 

 Apostasy is just wrong thinking clearly getting over the line.  Or as the 
Shakers would have said in their way, Out of Union with the Gospel.
 -Buck  
 

 An apostate of course is different from someone just being a critic. The 
critic, who as a satisfied and regular practitioner may offer some criticism as 
in a state of critique. Such critique is then also quite different in grade 
from those others being more negative and then again from states of pernicious 
negativity advocacy, like those people who are both quitters and haters in 
method. That becomes a pretty clear sign of someone who has fallen in to TM 
apostasy. 
 We should be mindful and clear about this as we filter our reading and 
interacting with our fellow community members here. That is justly good and 
sound subtle spirituality. Yes, like considering the source of posts I 
certainly sort my incoming mail accordingly. Om we should have, we could have 
better sorted the FFL membership here accordingly from way back with more 
aggressive moderation against the apostaic spam of outright apostasy here. 
Posting on FFL should be held a privilege and not just some right. Saha Nav,
 -Buck, a Satisfied Customer by the Practise of Maharishi's Transcendental 
Meditation Programme   
 

 

 Yes, that 'Disaffiliation';   Friends, for any of us we certainly know an 
apostate when we see one. For instance, with The Science of Creative 
Intelligence of which TM is the practical application. Seeing as US 
jurisprudence judges SCI to be a Religion it would not be a stretch to say that 
people who would renounce TM just by dropping or quitting the practice of said 
meditation and who then promote publicly against TM with an advocacy of 
negativity are in fact in an apostate state: apostate, as apostates in 
apostasy. Q.E.D., TM Apostates.
 
























Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
I guess the only remaining question is, if a framed copy of this blurb, (I 
haven't had time to look at it), will take its place next to Barry's prized 
ceremonial robe of the Buddhist Lama he is so fond of. 

 Will it rank that high?  (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Barry is going to town with this smoking gun, he thinks he's found.  Trying to 
indict the whole TMO with an extreme comment by one of its members. 

 I predict this will be a ho hum incident for anyone excepting Barry, and 
likely Michael.
 

 Although Michael, has maintained a bit of lower profile lately.
 

 Yes, this must certainly be Barry's best day of the year, capping his 20 year 
effort to get someone to recognize a extreme view of a chat room participant.
 

 Let's give it up for Barry.  (or at least a Bronx cheer)  (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Transcendental Mediation is not a religion.  - Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
 

 Doug Hamilton is an increasingly senile cultist who thinks that anyone who 
criticizes something he likes is a terrorist. - Sensible Americans Today, 
October 24 edition

 

 From: dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 1:32 PM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 
 
   Ditto,
 

 


 Spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth. 

 Saha Nav,
 satyam bruyat, priyam bruyat   speak the truth, speak sweetly
na bruyat satyam apriyam |  don't speak truth in an unloving way
priyam ca nanritam bruyat   don't speak untruth in a pleasant way
esha dharmah sanatanah ||   this is the eternal law 
 


 Or, TM Saha Nav: never do we speak negativity, never do we denounce anyone,
 

 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
 

 Apostasy is just wrong thinking clearly getting over the line.  Or as the 
Shakers would have said in their way, Out of Union with the Gospel.
 -Buck  
 

 An apostate of course is different from someone just being a critic. The 
critic, who as a satisfied and regular practitioner may offer some criticism as 
in a state of critique. Such critique is then also quite different in grade 
from those others being more negative and then again from states of pernicious 
negativity advocacy, like those people who are both quitters and haters in 
method. That becomes a pretty clear sign of someone who has fallen in to TM 
apostasy. 
 We should be mindful and clear about this as we filter our reading and 
interacting with our fellow community members here. That is justly good and 
sound subtle spirituality. Yes, like considering the source of posts I 
certainly sort my incoming mail accordingly. Om we should have, we could have 
better sorted the FFL membership here accordingly from way back with more 
aggressive moderation against the apostaic spam of outright apostasy here. 
Posting on FFL should be held a privilege and not just some right. Saha Nav,
 -Buck, a Satisfied Customer by the Practise of Maharishi's Transcendental 
Meditation Programme   
 

 

 Yes, that 'Disaffiliation';   Friends, for any of us we certainly know an 
apostate when we see one. For instance, with The Science of Creative 
Intelligence of which TM is the practical application. Seeing as US 
jurisprudence judges SCI to be a Religion it would not be a stretch to say that 
people who would renounce TM just by dropping or quitting the practice of said 
meditation and who then promote publicly against TM with an advocacy of 
negativity are in fact in an apostate state: apostate, as apostates in 
apostasy. Q.E.D., TM Apostates.
 



























Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread steve.sun...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
or at least occupy a prominent place in Barry's scrapbook.  Likely next to an 
artist's rendering of the time Barry, and Zen Master Rama occupied two side by 
side urinals at a truck stop. 

 Oh yea.  Either before, or after that rendering, I am sure. (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 I guess the only remaining question is, if a framed copy of this blurb, (I 
haven't had time to look at it), will take its place next to Barry's prized 
ceremonial robe of the Buddhist Lama he is so fond of. 

 Will it rank that high?  (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :

 Barry is going to town with this smoking gun, he thinks he's found.  Trying to 
indict the whole TMO with an extreme comment by one of its members. 

 I predict this will be a ho hum incident for anyone excepting Barry, and 
likely Michael.
 

 Although Michael, has maintained a bit of lower profile lately.
 

 Yes, this must certainly be Barry's best day of the year, capping his 20 year 
effort to get someone to recognize a extreme view of a chat room participant.
 

 Let's give it up for Barry.  (or at least a Bronx cheer)  (-:
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :

 Transcendental Mediation is not a religion.  - Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
 

 Doug Hamilton is an increasingly senile cultist who thinks that anyone who 
criticizes something he likes is a terrorist. - Sensible Americans Today, 
October 24 edition

 

 From: dhamiltony2k5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 1:32 PM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 
 
   Ditto,
 

 


 Spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth. 

 Saha Nav,
 satyam bruyat, priyam bruyat   speak the truth, speak sweetly
na bruyat satyam apriyam |  don't speak truth in an unloving way
priyam ca nanritam bruyat   don't speak untruth in a pleasant way
esha dharmah sanatanah ||   this is the eternal law 
 


 Or, TM Saha Nav: never do we speak negativity, never do we denounce anyone,
 

 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
 

 Apostasy is just wrong thinking clearly getting over the line.  Or as the 
Shakers would have said in their way, Out of Union with the Gospel.
 -Buck  
 

 An apostate of course is different from someone just being a critic. The 
critic, who as a satisfied and regular practitioner may offer some criticism as 
in a state of critique. Such critique is then also quite different in grade 
from those others being more negative and then again from states of pernicious 
negativity advocacy, like those people who are both quitters and haters in 
method. That becomes a pretty clear sign of someone who has fallen in to TM 
apostasy. 
 We should be mindful and clear about this as we filter our reading and 
interacting with our fellow community members here. That is justly good and 
sound subtle spirituality. Yes, like considering the source of posts I 
certainly sort my incoming mail accordingly. Om we should have, we could have 
better sorted the FFL membership here accordingly from way back with more 
aggressive moderation against the apostaic spam of outright apostasy here. 
Posting on FFL should be held a privilege and not just some right. Saha Nav,
 -Buck, a Satisfied Customer by the Practise of Maharishi's Transcendental 
Meditation Programme   
 

 

 Yes, that 'Disaffiliation';   Friends, for any of us we certainly know an 
apostate when we see one. For instance, with The Science of Creative 
Intelligence of which TM is the practical application. Seeing as US 
jurisprudence judges SCI to be a Religion it would not be a stretch to say that 
people who would renounce TM just by dropping or quitting the practice of said 
meditation and who then promote publicly against TM with an advocacy of 
negativity are in fact in an apostate state: apostate, as apostates in 
apostasy. Q.E.D., TM Apostates.
 






























[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote :

 Ditto, 

 

 Spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth. 

 Saha Nav,
 


 satyam bruyat, priyam bruyat   speak the truth, speak sweetly
na bruyat satyam apriyam |  don't speak truth in an unloving way
priyam ca nanritam bruyat   don't speak untruth in a pleasant way
esha dharmah sanatanah ||   this is the eternal law 
 


 Or, TM Saha Nav: never do we speak negativity, never do we denounce anyone,
 

 M: Is this supposed to be a parody of the movement's hypocrisy by your alter 
ego Buck, because this is the exact opposite of what you have been doing? You 
have been doing more than denouncing, you have been slandering beyond all 
reason with odious comparisons.
 

 http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 
 
 

 Apostasy is just wrong thinking clearly getting over the line.  Or as the 
Shakers would have said in their way, Out of Union with the Gospel.
 
 -Buck  

 

 M: It means you dropped a belief. Like everybody who grows up and changes 
religions for example. In modern society it should invoke a meh at best. The 
only reason it is an up word today is because there are still medieval morons 
running around enforcing a death penalty spelled out in their scriptures for 
this thought crime. People like you who are giving lip service to a reformed 
religion should be the last person to run around accusing someone of changing 
their mind about something and making slanderous comparisons with people who 
are killing other human beings for what they think.

 
 B:: An apostate of course is different from someone just being a critic. 
 

 M: They might not be a critic at all, it just means they dropped the belief.  
Whey can't religious fanatics crack a book and get their words straight?

 

 B:The critic, who as a satisfied and regular practitioner
 

 M: Slippery one Buck. Now you are redefining legitimate criticism only for 
people still practicing which by definition means they are not apostates. You 
are trying to distance yourself from the years of whining and criticism you 
subjected us too when you were kicked out of the dome. Your criticism was OK 
and his is terrorism. Nice try.

 

 B: may offer some criticism as in a state of critique. Such critique is then 
also quite different in grade from those others being more negative and then 
again from states of pernicious negativity advocacy, like those people who are 
both quitters and haters in method. 

 

 M: Which is the freak'n definition of apostasy short bus.
 

 B: That becomes a pretty clear sign of someone who has fallen in to TM 
apostasy. 

 

 M: Not to you. You aren't clear about any of the definitions of words you are 
introducing into the discussion

 

 D:We should be mindful and clear about this as we filter our reading and 
interacting with our fellow community members here. That is justly good and 
sound subtle spirituality. 
 

 M: You are making this too easy dude. Take your own preachy advice to heart, 
stop speaking the unsweet truth about someone you disagree with, stop making 
wildly inappropriate comparisons with expressing disdain for a group and people 
who explode bombs on babies and for your God's sake;
 

 crack a freak'n book about the terms you are using as weapons here to shoot 
the messenger for ideas you do not share.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Yes, like considering the source of posts I certainly sort my incoming mail 
accordingly. Om we should have, we could have better sorted the FFL membership 
here accordingly from way back with more aggressive moderation against the 
apostaic spam of outright apostasy here. Posting on FFL should be held a 
privilege and not just some right. Saha Nav,
 
 -Buck, a Satisfied Customer by the Practise of Maharishi's Transcendental 
Meditation Programme   
 

 

 Yes, that 'Disaffiliation';   Friends, for any of us we certainly know an 
apostate when we see one. For instance, with The Science of Creative 
Intelligence of which TM is the practical application. Seeing as US 
jurisprudence judges SCI to be a Religion it would not be a stretch to say that 
people who would renounce TM just by dropping or quitting the practice of said 
meditation and who then promote publicly against TM with an advocacy of 
negativity are in fact in an apostate state: apostate, as apostates in 
apostasy. Q.E.D., TM Apostates.
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:

 As I'm pretty sure both Xeno and Barry know, apostasy is not limited to 
defection from a religion. One can become an apostate from any previous loyalty.
 

  'Apostasy is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation 
  of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy is known as an 
  apostate.' 
 
 As I never was the member of any religion, I cannot ever be correctly accused 
 of 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
Life long atheists cannot commit apostasy for there never is, nor was, anything 
for them to abandon.

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt) 
is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of a religion 
by a person. One who commits apostasy (or who apostatizes) is known as an 
apostate.


If 'spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth', what should they speak 
non-spiritually? Maybe they should just speak the truth instead of lying. 
Spiritual people divide themselves from the rest of mankind, and each other, so 
presumably they would speak with less rancour than the rest of us, except that 
is not what we observe.



 From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2014 11:32 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 


  
Ditto,


Spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth.


Saha Nav,


 satyam bruyat, priyam bruyat  
speak the truth, speak sweetly
na bruyat satyam apriyam | 
don't speak truth in an unloving way
priyam ca nanritam
bruyat  
don't speak untruth in a pleasant way
esha dharmah sanatanah
||   this
is the eternal law 


Or, TM Saha Nav: never do we speak negativity, never do we denounce anyone,

http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages/365694 

Apostasy is just wrong thinking clearly getting over
the line.  Or as the Shakers would have said in their way, Out of Union with 
the Gospel.
-Buck  



An apostate of course is
different from someone just being a critic. The critic, who as a
satisfied and regular practitioner may offer some criticism as in
a state of critique.  Such critique is then also quite different in
grade from those others being more negative and then again from
states of pernicious negativity advocacy, like those people who are
both quitters and haters in method.  That becomes a pretty clear sign
of someone who has fallen in to TM apostasy. 
We should be mindful and
clear about this as we filter our reading and interacting with our fellow 
community members
here.  That is justly good and sound subtle spirituality.   Yes, like
considering the source of posts I certainly sort my incoming mail
accordingly.  Om we should have, we could have better sorted the FFL
membership here accordingly from way back with more aggressive
moderation against the apostaic spam of outright apostasy here.
Posting on FFL should be held a privilege and not just some right.
Saha Nav,
-Buck, a Satisfied Customer by the Practise of Maharishi's Transcendental 
Meditation Programme   


Yes, that 'Disaffiliation';   Friends, for any of us we certainly know an 
apostate when we see one.
For instance, with The Science of Creative Intelligence of which TM
is the practical application.  Seeing as US jurisprudence judges SCI
to be a Religion it would not be a stretch to say that people who
would renounce TM just by dropping or quitting the practice of said
meditation and who then promote publicly against TM with an advocacy
of negativity are in fact in an apostate state: apostate, as
apostates in apostasy.  Q.E.D., TM Apostates.



---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:


As I'm pretty sure both Xeno and Barry know, apostasy is not limited to 
defection from a religion. One can become an apostate from any previous 
loyalty.


 'Apostasy is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation 
 of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy is known as an 
 apostate.' 
 
  As I never was the member of any religion, I cannot ever be correctly 
 accused of apostasy. As the TM org claims it is not a religion, so no 
 one can ever be correctly accused for disafilliating or abandoning TM as 
 apostasy (unless of course the TM org is lying about that claim). 

It's an NPD Thang, Xeno. If you've convinced yourself that the POV held by 
your self is true, and that any POV that contradicts it is is untrue, 
then you get to make up the rules. There is absolutely *no problem* with 
declaring someone an apostate from an organization that you declare is not 
a religion. :-)

It's a lot like having an argument in which there is only one participant 
-- the person trying to start the argument -- and then declaring one's self 
the winner. :-)

Narcissistic Personality Disorder really *does* explain almost all of the 
aberrant behavior we see on FFL. I would suggest that this mental disorder 
is the true legacy of Maharishi's teachings. 










:-)




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-10-24 Thread 'Richard J. Williams' pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife]
On 10/24/2014 1:37 PM, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartax...@yahoo.com 
[FairfieldLife] wrote:
Life long atheists cannot commit apostasy for there never is, nor was, 
anything for them to abandon.


/When a person professes a belief in Buddhas, karma and reincarnation, 
and at the same time, professes to be an atheist - they are probably 
experiencing cognitive dissonance./




Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or 
revolt) is the formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or 
renunciation of a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy (or 
who apostatizes) is known as an apostate.


/Anyone who claims to be a Buddhist, and at the same time, professes a 
belief in an eternal spirit soul, is an impostor. Everyone knows that 
the Buddha did not teach an eternal spirit soul that survives after 
death to be reborn again. /




If 'spiritually, people should speak the sweet truth', what should 
they speak non-spiritually? Maybe they should just speak the truth 
instead of lying. Spiritual people divide themselves from the rest of 
mankind, and each other, so presumably they would speak with less 
rancour than the rest of us, except that is not what we observe.


/Non sequitur. The term spiritual has not been defined. And, it has 
already been established by Judy that you lied, but what lie did you 
post? Go figure./




[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-02-04 Thread anartaxius


 Buck wrote:

 Om yes, and eminent scholars. FairfieldLife and Fairfield and TM is quite 
topical to quite a lot of people lurking. And, who do you think reads this 
place? Your audience? Who do you really write for when you post? Some writers 
should rightfully be embarrassed.
 

 -Buck
 

 An eminent scholar is well known in his/her field of expertise, and some are 
well know outside of their field. By the criterion you have listed here so far, 
I could be an eminent scholar. So what are the field or fields of expertise of 
these people, and who are they, and why would they be interested in us anyway? 
I mean FFL is a place where level-headed people and psychos, and the 
intelligent impaired can meet on a level playing field.
 




















Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-02-04 Thread Share Long
Xeno, I think FFL is a microcosm of L. Do you think L is a level playing field? 
I do.





On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 2:26 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com 
anartax...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  


Buck wrote:


Om yes, and eminent scholars.  FairfieldLife and Fairfield and TM
is quite topical to quite a lot of people lurking.  And, who do you
think reads this place?  Your audience?  Who do you really write for
when you post?  Some writers should rightfully be embarrassed.

-Buck

An eminent scholar is well known in his/her field of expertise, and some are 
well know outside of their field. By the criterion you have listed here so far, 
I could be an eminent scholar. So what are the field or fields of expertise of 
these people, and who are they, and why would they be interested in us anyway? 
I mean FFL is a place where level-headed people and psychos, and the 
intelligent impaired can meet on a level playing field.




[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-02-04 Thread awoelflebater


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote:

 

 Buck wrote:

 Om yes, and eminent scholars. FairfieldLife and Fairfield and TM is quite 
topical to quite a lot of people lurking. And, who do you think reads this 
place? Your audience? Who do you really write for when you post? Some writers 
should rightfully be embarrassed.
 

 Yes, they should, Buck. I love this image of eminent scholars -  who in 
their right eminence would be found hanging around here?

 

 -Buck
 

 An eminent scholar is well known in his/her field of expertise, and some are 
well know outside of their field. By the criterion you have listed here so far, 
I could be an eminent scholar. So what are the field or fields of expertise of 
these people, and who are they, and why would they be interested in us anyway? 
I mean FFL is a place where level-headed people and psychos, and the 
intelligent impaired can meet on a level playing field.
 






















Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-22 Thread Richard Williams
  Well, it looks like it's settled then: MJ and the TurqoiseB
  were the real True Believers, whose religion was TM -  - the
  only apostates left on the forum. It looks like nobody else
  on FFL ever considered TM to be their religion. You can't
  be apostate from something you don't believe in. Go
  figure.
 
MJ:
 you know, I never thought about it that way before, but I guess
 back in the 70's and 80's, TM WAS my religion.

So, it looks like it's settled then: MJ and Barry both thought of TM as
their religion. They both were disappointed when they realized that it's a
real stretch to make a simple relaxation technique into a religion. MJ and
Barry have said that TM is a religion, so they must believe that to be
true. The question is: why did it take Barry fourteen years to realize that
he was making TM his religion, and it took MJ only a couple of years to
figure this out? Go figure.

Anything you do can be turned into a religion - L. Ron Hubbard made
Diantics into a religion, based on the fact that people just feel better
when they have someone to talk to.


On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 5:00 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.comwrote:



 you know, I never thought about it that way before, but I guess back in
 the 70's and 80's, TM WAS my religion.
 
 On Sun, 1/19/14, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: Richard J. Williams FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, January 19, 2014, 3:55 AM



























 Share: What I reject is the idea that
 we are defective in our core, by
  our very nature. I guess
 that makes me apostate!
 Well, it looks like
 it's settled then: MJ and the TurqoiseB were the real
 True Believers, whose religion was TM -  - the only
 apostates left on the forum. It looks like nobody else on
 FFL ever considered TM to be their religion. You can't
 be apostate from something you don't believe in. Go
 figure.



 On Sat, Jan 18, 2014
 at 8:14 PM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com
 wrote:


























 Judy, once again I
 think it is a matter of language choice. I would say that I
 need to fully realize my fundamental unity with the divine,
 with all of creation. Rather than that I stand in need of
 redemption. For me, each of these wordings has its own
 flavor or tone. I prefer the former wording for various
 reasons. It may not be how the Church would say it. But I
 believe it is closer to how Jesus would express it.


 I recognize that all of us humans need to grow. What I
 reject is the idea that we are defective in our core, by our
 very nature. I guess that makes me apostate!





 On Saturday, January
 18, 2014 5:21 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com
 authfri...@yahoo.com
 wrote:












 And I never said you should believe it. Why
 are you repeating yourself?

 If you don't think you stand in need of redemption,
 that's fine with me.
  Judy, true you said
 Christianity but my personal experience is with Catholicism.
 I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are
 defective by nature and I don't believe that Jesus
 taught that. 





 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM,
 authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:












 I do believe I said Christianity,
 not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished you
 weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across
 the board. As I said, if we weren't defective,
 there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to
 redeem us and make us acceptable in God's
 sight.

 I'm not saying you or
 anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, a
 reminder that this is what Christianity says.


 The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing
 industry is apocryphal, BTW. Days of penitence, including
 the practice of abstaining from meat, had been established
 long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry
 important enough for a pope to be concerned about.


  Judy, this
 is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that
 people are defective at their core. I don't
 think this is a healthy belief and I doubt that Jesus
 taught it.


 I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal
 sin to eat meat on Friday. I realized how arbitrary their
 rules are. Later I heard that some Pope made that rule to
 help the Portuguese fishing industry! 






 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM,
 authfriend@... authfriend@...
 wrote:











 Did you not read
 what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is
 arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and
 guilt isn't inherently healthy. You
 can redefine the words all you want, but all you're
 saying is that one shouldn't feel that one is
 fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no more so
 than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of
 Christianity, of course, that everyone is fundamentally
 wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't need
 redemption).


  Judy,
 contemporary psychologists find it useful

Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-20 Thread Share Long
Xeno, you are probably correct that it is difficult after all this time to know 
what Jesus actually taught. For me he embodies agape. So any teaching that 
deviates much from that principle, I don't trust it as coming from him. I think 
early on his actual teachings got hijacked for other than spiritual purposes. I 
seem to have grown a cynical streak in myself!





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 4:32 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com 
anartax...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
There are a few splinter Christian churches that do not follow the idea that we 
are inherently sinful, but are instead, inherently good. One such church is the 
Unity Church of Practical Christianity. On the other hand the majority of 
Christian flavours do indeed seem to regard our species as base and vile in 
some way. Should a creator that makes such defective merchandise really be 
revered for attempting to patch its mistakes? It really does not make much 
sense. OK, y'all are bad, doomed, so I'll send my son and kill him for your 
benefit. After all this time it is hard to tell what Jesus actually taught; it 
may have had a more esoteric meaning in the beginning, but it is that more 
abstract way of interpretation that tends to get lost as time marches on.

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:


I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.

I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, a 
reminder that this is what Christianity says.



[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-19 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:

 LSD still comes in tabs?

  How would you know that?
  Perhaps you read about it on MSLSD.

  (disclaimer for the NSA snoops: I don't know nothin' bout nothin')

Actually, speaking not from experience but from a fascinating article I
once read on the subject, LSD these days comes on tiny bits of paper,
about a quarter the size of your little fingernail. And the reason why
is ironic.

It's to skirt Federal laws in the United States. In their crazed zeal to
fight the war against drugs, the US government voted in some really,
really dumb mandatory sentencing laws centering on the *quantity* of
drugs found on a person. Thus if you have more than a certain amount of
a banned substance, they can consider you a dealer and the mandatory
sentencing laws come into effect.

With LSD, one of the most potent psychotropic chemicals ever invented,
of which 125 *micrograms* of pure stuff would give you a good trip, they
decided to measure the dealer amount of the drug by weight. As a
result, if you were caught today with *one sugar cube* of LSD from back
in the 60s (essentially one dose), you would be sent to prison for a
federally mandated twenty years.

So the dealers just made the doses lighter. They put a tiny microdot of
LSD onto a tiny piece of paper, and voila -- they can carry around
literally thousands of doses in their pockets without ever going over
the dealer amount of the drug that would invoke the mandatory
sentencing laws. Go figure.





Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-19 Thread Michael Jackson
you know, I never thought about it that way before, but I guess back in the 
70's and 80's, TM WAS my religion.

On Sun, 1/19/14, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: Richard J. Williams FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Sunday, January 19, 2014, 3:55 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Share: What I reject is the idea that
 we are defective in our core, by 
  our very nature. I guess
 that makes me apostate!
 Well, it looks like
 it's settled then: MJ and the TurqoiseB were the real
 True Believers, whose religion was TM -  - the only
 apostates left on the forum. It looks like nobody else on
 FFL ever considered TM to be their religion. You can't
 be apostate from something you don't believe in. Go
 figure.
 
 
 
 On Sat, Jan 18, 2014
 at 8:14 PM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Judy, once again I
 think it is a matter of language choice. I would say that I
 need to fully realize my fundamental unity with the divine,
 with all of creation. Rather than that I stand in need of
 redemption. For me, each of these wordings has its own
 flavor or tone. I prefer the former wording for various
 reasons. It may not be how the Church would say it. But I
 believe it is closer to how Jesus would express it.
 
 
 I recognize that all of us humans need to grow. What I
 reject is the idea that we are defective in our core, by our
 very nature. I guess that makes me apostate!
 
 
  
  
   
On Saturday, January
 18, 2014 5:21 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com
 authfri...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   And I never said you should believe it. Why
 are you repeating yourself?
 
 If you don't think you stand in need of redemption,
 that's fine with me.
  Judy, true you said
 Christianity but my personal experience is with Catholicism.
 I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are
 defective by nature and I don't believe that Jesus
 taught that. 
 
 
  
  
  
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM,
 authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   I do believe I said Christianity,
 not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished you
 weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across
 the board. As I said, if we weren't defective,
 there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to
 redeem us and make us acceptable in God's
 sight.
 
 I'm not saying you or
 anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, a
 reminder that this is what Christianity says.
 
 
 The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing
 industry is apocryphal, BTW. Days of penitence, including
 the practice of abstaining from meat, had been established
 long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry
 important enough for a pope to be concerned about.
 
 
  Judy, this
  is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that
 people are defective at their core. I don't
  think this is a healthy belief and I doubt that Jesus
 taught it. 
 
 
 I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal
 sin to eat meat on Friday. I realized how arbitrary their
 rules are. Later I heard that some Pope made that rule to
 help the Portuguese fishing industry! 
 
 
  
  
  
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM,
 authfriend@... authfriend@...
  wrote:
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Did you not read
 what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is
 arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and
 guilt isn't inherently healthy. You
 can redefine the words all you want, but all you're
 saying is that one shouldn't feel that one is
 fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no more so
 than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of
 Christianity, of course, that everyone is fundamentally
 wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't need
 redemption).
 
 
  Judy,
  contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish
 between guilt which is healthy and shame which is toxic,
 where shame indicates feeling that one is fundamentally
 wrong, bad, defective. 
 
 
  
  
 
  
On Saturday, January
 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@...
 authfriend@... wrote:
  
   
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   It's still an
 arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the
 sense that there's something wrong with you rather than
 that there was something wrong with what you
 did.
 
 And anyway, the sense that
 there's nothing wrong with you is
 delusionary. If there were nothing wrong with you, you
 wouldn't have done anything wrong in the first place.
 It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't
 want you to beat yourself up endlessly about what you did,
 and that's fine, but it doesn't mean you
 shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.
 
 
 My last sentence is what I

Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-19 Thread Share Long
Judy, first of all, I very much enjoy this kind of discussion so thank you. 
Secondly, I think I still have some issues with my Catholic upbringing and that 
those are coming into play here. 

Yes, I realize the two languages are expressing the same principle. But as you 
must well know, language choice has such an effect on tone. And I think tone is 
what we register on the subconscious level. And the subconscious level is what 
affects us most strongly. So...while I agree that it's good to consider the 
literal and move beyond, I think it's also good to notice the feeling tone 
engendered in us by the literal.

The redemptive wording for me connotes the idea that we have to be saved by 
something outside of ourselves while the unity wording suggests that we are 
already one with God but have not yet realized it.

I think this is the fundamental reason why I embrace Eastern spirituality 
rather than western Catholicism. The former says that we are divine in our 
basic nature. I don't think Catholicism says that.
I think the Church says that by nature, we are separate from God, where by 
nature is the key phrase.





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 9:12 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
But you don't seem able to see that while the language is different, it's the 
same fundamental idea. Redemption for Christians is the Beatific Vision, being 
at one with God forever. We are not born in that state; we are defective in 
that respect. You weren't born in the state of full realization of your 
fundamental unity with the divine, so you are defective in that respect. 
Something is missing. Obviously in both cases it's a core defect--how could 
unity with the Divine not be the core quality of a human being?

People take words much too literally instead of looking at the principles 
behind them.



 Judy, once again I think it is a matter of language choice. I would say that 
I need to fully realize my fundamental unity with the divine, with all of 
creation. Rather than that I stand in need of redemption. For me, each of these 
wordings has its own flavor or tone. I prefer the former wording for various 
reasons. It may not be how the Church would say it. But I believe it is closer 
to how Jesus would express it.

I recognize that all of us humans need to grow. What I reject is the idea that 
we are defective in our core, by our very nature. I guess that makes me 
apostate! 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:21 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
And I never said you should believe it. Why are you repeating yourself?

If you don't think you stand in need of redemption, that's fine with me.


 Judy, true you said Christianity but my personal experience is with 
Catholicism. I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are defective by 
nature and I don't believe that Jesus taught that. 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.

I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, a 
reminder that this is what Christianity says.

The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing industry is apocryphal, 
BTW. Days of penitence, including the practice of abstaining from meat, had 
been established long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry important 
enough for a pope to be concerned about.

 Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that people 
are defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief and I doubt 
that Jesus taught it. 


I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on 
Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that some Pope 
made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry! 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).



 Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between guilt 
which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling that 
one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's 

Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-19 Thread anartaxius
I would agree with this. In my own life, from childhood on, the tendency to 
invoke metaphysical explanations steadily declined, until now everything is 
immediate, direct, no need for an explanation of something out-of-sight. That 
is for experience. As far as the rational mind is concerned, there are things 
unseen, but inferred by aspects of experience. Radio waves for example. We 
cannot see them or feel them, but there are direct experiential reasons for 
supposing they are there, even though an electrical engineer and a physicist 
might fully understand the reason this is so. For the rest of us, that the 
radio, when turned on, functions, is direct evidence of that even if we cannot 
fully understand. But if I were to say I am getting mental messages from 
'enlightened beings' in the constellation of Orion, and yet the only evidence I 
offer is what I say, only crazy people might believe what I say. This is the 
difference between shared evidence and private 'evidence'. There has to be a 
way to connect minds via the physical world to have evidence that involves 
direct experience. This is basically what divides science from religion. 
Science by its nature cannot endorse metaphysical explanations because there is 
nothing to share, to point to.
 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote:

 Re People take words much too literally:

 

 That's my view. I think the original founders of the world religions were 
talking about a change in consciousness. They had an insight (ie in - sight). 
The unwashed masses take the words as a description of the objective world out 
there. As the everyday world out there doesn't match the founders' 
descriptions they are then forced to imagine a supernatural world were those 
words would apply.




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Michael Jackson
in my experience it has basic truth in it but it is rather wordy, meaning it 
takes a million words to say what could be expressed in 100 words. People who 
latch onto it tend to be fanatic about it.

The woman who channeled the material, Helen Schucman had a habit of disparaging 
it throughout her life - her partner in the project Bill Thetford, used the 
material to transform every difficult relationship in his life, except for his 
relationship with Schucman.

So in my opinion it has value but is awfully tiresome to wade through.

On Sat, 1/18/14, steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, January 18, 2014, 1:35 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   
 I was talking to a friend of
 mine the other night.  In the past he has recommended
 some interesting reading material.  He was telling me
 how impressed he was with The Course in
 Miracles.
 I know that material has been
 around for sometime.  I was wondering what others might
 have thought of it, if they happened to take a run at
 it?
 FWIW, from what he told me,
 it had an interesting genesis, but other than that, again,
 from what he told me, it sounded like basic new age boiler
 plate.
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@...
 wrote:
 
 yep, it can
 happen. Same with Chuck Anderson
 
 
 
  On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard J.
 Williams punditster@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
  Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible
 thing.
 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
  Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 6:13 PM
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 

 
On 1/17/2014 9:34 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   I view Amma as a huckster, but I don't deny
 people
 
  have pleasant and 
 
  
 
   powerful experiences with her.
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   I view M as a huckster, but the one time I saw him in
 
  person, I had 
 
  
 
   what stands today as one of the most powerful,
 amazing
 
  experiences of 
 
  
 
   energy of my life.
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  So, it's settled then - Amma and MMY are both
 hucksters
 
  that cause 
 
  
 
  amazing experiences of energy in people's lives.
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Richard Williams
emptybill:
 Robin never was interested in a classical Vedantic assessment
 of his so-called “enlightenment”.

That's because MMY didn't present TM in a classical assessment of
enlightenment. MMY's sadhana is based on yoga practice. If it was Vedantic
MMY would have emphasized the Vedantic notion of maya,which is not real,
yet not unreal. Instead the TMer practice is in the context of the yogic
praxis quasi-dualism. When your practice any yoga it invovles a knower and
a known -  it's considered to be based on a fundamental dualism. If Robin
had wanted to interpret his enlightenment according to Vedantic
explanations he would have done so - I haven't seen any evidence in his
writing that Robin believed anything but the subject-object dualism.
Vedantic realism is based on transcendental knowledge not on the maya of
works or acts that can liberate.


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:57 PM, emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote:



 *Michael sez:*



 *Robin's experience was that his actions were, as it were, dictated by
 cosmic forces, rather than that he could just do whatever he felt like. His
 experience was that he could not do other than what he did, even though at
 times there was some aspect of himself that didn't want to do what he was
 doing.*



 *So bottom line I don't buy Robin's assertion that he in essence was
 forced to behave in this way by these forces. That excuse goes back as
 long as we have had the idea of a Devil. *



 Emptybill replies:



 Robin never was interested in a classical Vedantic assessment of his
 so-called “enlightenment”. All of this, in spite of the fact that
 Shankara’s Vedanta was the proffered basis of Maharishi’s tradition. Such
 an assessment would have presented an opposite view about this whole
 “enlightenment meme”. I pointed this out to Robin a number of times but he
 wasn’t interested in hearing about it. Rather he just wanted to espouse his
 chosen narrative about how he was deluded by “cosmic entities” but was now
 free of them. More of the old - “I didn’t fail … I was fooled” as you also
 pointed out.



 This is what happens when *experience* itself becomes the object of
 sadhana (practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old
 theme and “gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the
 self-evaluations necessary for real sadhana.

  



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Richard Williams
Michael Jackson:
 I do think some folk have done it like maybe good old Saint Joseph of
 Cupertino and am willing to believe Rama may have done, as the Brits
 say.

So,if anyone could really demonstrate levitation, the event would probably
be on the cover of every science magazine, on TV and in the news every day
for years.An levitation event that if true, would revolutionize science and
cause a Copernican revolution in he laws of physics and the theory of
general relativity. But, this event seems to have been missed - it's not
even mentioned in Mark Laxer's book about Rama. Go figure.

 M never demonstrated cause he couldn't do it.

According to your own logic it could have been possible for MMY to hop,
levitate float and fly,even if nobody saw the event. You realize you and
Barry have just blown any semblance of scientific objectivity, right? Maybe
it's time for you two to apologize for posting all those fibs making fun of
the TMer bun-hoppers on the forum.

[image: Inline image 1]


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.comwrote:



 Oh, I see that you mean. As to my own belief, I made no comment on the
 reality of Lenz's levitation demonstration. I have done TMSP and it
 certainly doesn't qualify as flying in any way. I do think some folk have
 done it like maybe good old Saint Joseph of Cupertino and am willing to
 believe Rama may have done, as the Brits say. M never demonstrated cause he
 couldn't do it.
 

 On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 6:05 PM



























 On 1/17/2014 9:46 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:

  It looks like you've changed your mind about
 the

  bun-hopping-levitation too.

 

  I have no idea why you would say that.

 

 Well, it's settled then - humans can fly and levitate;
 we have several

 eye-witnesses on the forum who can testify to this. So, I
 wonder why

 Barry was making fun of MMY and the bun-hopping? Go figure.
























  



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Richard Williams
Ann:
 I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to allow certain
individuals
 to spiral out of control. When you put someone on some sort of pedestal
 it can really screw them up, whether they are holy men or holy women
 or the Justin Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of the world. Feed the ego like
you
 would force feed a goose to fatten up the liver and sooner or later you
create
 something that is unwell.

This is a new twist - now it's Barry's fault for enabling Rama. Go figure.


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:



 Michael wrote:


 I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we can
 all have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or enlightened
 perception, including all the celestial perception stuff is just another
 experience among a plethora of experiences.


 I agree. I also have a hard time finding greater or lesser validity of any
 particular experience over another. An experience experienced is just that
 - it is reality for that experiencer. And as we all know experience is
 ultimately subjective and particular to each person. How to understand or
 interpret, let alone judge or put some value on someone else's
 reality/experience is, for me, an exercise in futility. I do, however,
 believe in personal growth and the reality of the possibility for the
 expansion of awareness and the development of sensibility in different
 human beings in different phases of their life or lives.


 I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona that
 is real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort of like the
 historical Buddha was supposed to have been. But most of those who have
 higher states of consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences into
 egoic focus that includes often enough the idea that since everything is a
 play of awareness, it doesn't make a tinker's damn what they do with and to
 people, cuz its just all consciousness playing around. No rules, no
 standard of conduct, these are the ones like Muktananda, Maharishi and Rama
 who go off the deep end of ego and screw things up.


 I also think that many people who are under the assumption that a sort of
 higher state of consciousness can or does exist in gurus or teachers
 and are therefore responsible for giving these people free licence to do as
 they please and to support them in this, often to the detriment of everyone
 involved. I have yet to see anyone free of ego and I don't think of ego as
 something terrible. Like many characteristics, it can become distorted,
 unbalanced but in and of itself ego is neither good or bad. Just as
 ambition or empathy or passion is not inherently, ultimately good or bad.
 How it manifests can make the difference between something becoming
 positive, negative or simply remaining benign. It's complex, of course.


 I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to allow certain
 individuals to spiral out of control. When you put someone on some sort of
 pedestal it can really screw them up, whether they are holy men or holy
 women or the Justin Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of the world. Feed the ego
 like you would force feed a goose to fatten up the liver and sooner or
 later you create something that is unwell.


  



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Richard Williams
 to one side of her grabbed her arm and
 prevented her from plunging them into the horrified accuser's chest. After
 she had calmed down (and been disarmed) she vowed that she couldn't help
 it, that the Devil had gotten into her and made her try to stab him. Still
 says to this day the Devil caused her to do that. Same deal as with Robin.
 

 On Fri, 1/17/14, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 4:18 PM



 Really fine
 post, Michael, very thoughtful.
 Based on what I've read,
 I'm not sure enlightenment experiences are always a
 choice, at least not on a conscious level. I
 don't know how much you've read of what Robin posted
 here, but he may be a case in point. From his accounts,
 while he
 certainly wanted to become enlightened, when it
 happened it was completely
 unexpected and not at all under his control. And it lasted
 for more than 10 years.
 You write,
 But most of those
 who have 'higher
 states of consciousness' cycle from those kinds of
 experiences into egoic focus that includes often enough the
 idea that since everything is a play of awareness, it
 doesn't make a tinker's damn what they do with and
 to people, cuz its just all consciousness playing around. No
 rules, no standard of conduct... Robin's
 experience was that his actions were, as it were, dictated
 by cosmic forces, rather than that he could just do whatever
 he felt like. His experience was that he could not do other
 than what he did, even though at times there was some aspect
 of himself that didn't want to do what he was
 doing.
 So
 in his case it wasn't a matter of egoic
 focus in the usual sense, although that seems to have
 been what it looked like from the outside, especially toward
 the end of his cult-leader period.
 What's
 unusual about Robin is that after his group crashed and
 burned and he was disgraced, he realized something was very
 wrong with his enlightenment, and he set out to get himself
 back to normal consciousness. It took him 25 years of
 constant, grueling, agonizing effort. And he came to believe
 that enlightenment was a snare and a delusion, masterminded
 by forces inimical to the welfare of human beings. In his
 case, he believes, these forces took advantage of what he
 calls his secret infirmities, negative character
 traits, first to instigate his enlightenment, and then to
 bring him down.
 He
 never thought, and doesn't to this day, that Maharishi
 was a con man. He believes Maharishi was himself conned by
 these same forces.
 I'm struck by how closely your
 analysis tracks in many respects with
 Robin's.



 Not having known or having had
 any experience with Rama, I can only go by his recorded
 history - he certainly was known to have acted
 out - he apparently abused and misused his position as
 teacher, he was a serial womanizer, and maybe took people to
 the cleaners - although some seemed to feel that their money
 was well spent with him, regardless of his
 enormities.


 I acknowledge his shortcomings, and the fact that some like
 Barry had some powerful experiences with him. I am having
 some degree of energy experience from reading Barry's
 account.



 I view Amma as a huckster, but I don't deny people have
 pleasant and powerful experiences with her.



 I view M as a huckster, but the one time I saw him in
 person, I had what stands today as one of the most powerful,
 amazing experiences of energy of my life.



 Same with other teachers like Muktananda - they could spark
 energy in other people, sometimes big time Energy, but they
 were or are ego-centered and screwed up in a lot of ways
 that lead to the people around them getting screwed in
 different ways. Chuck Anderson who was also known as Master
 Teacher of the Endeavor Academy falls into that category.



 Bottom line for me is that all this has taught me the
 definition of enlightenment M gave out is flawed if not
 downright incorrect, and yes that includes the source
 material of the vedas which I feel was the pontifications of
 a bunch of guys roaming around in the forest who said
 Huh! This is my reality so I am going to tell everyone
 it THEIR reality too, and if they don't get on board
 with it, they are missing the boat.



 I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite
 experiences we can all have, and the so-called higher states
 of awareness or enlightened perception, including all the
 celestial perception stuff is just another experience among
 a plethora of experiences.



 I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a
 persona that is real moral, always sativcc, always
 unperturbed, sort of like the historical Buddha was supposed
 to have been. But most of those who have higher states
 of consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences
 into egoic focus that includes often enough the idea that
 since

[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread awoelflebater


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote:

 Ann:
  I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to allow certain individuals 
  to spiral out of control. When you put someone on some sort of pedestal
  it can really screw them up, whether they are holy men or holy women 
  or the Justin Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of the world. Feed the ego like you 
  would force feed a goose to fatten up the liver and sooner or later you 
  create 
  something that is unwell.
 
 This is a new twist - now it's Barry's fault for enabling Rama. Go figure.
 

 Yup, just like it's my fault for enabling you by responding to your silly 
statement above. But thank you for the opportunity to illustrate my point.
 

 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM, awoelflebater@... mailto:awoelflebater@... 
wrote:
   Michael wrote:
 

 I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we can all 
have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or enlightened perception, 
including all the celestial perception stuff is just another experience among a 
plethora of experiences.
 


 I agree. I also have a hard time finding greater or lesser validity of any 
particular experience over another. An experience experienced is just that - it 
is reality for that experiencer. And as we all know experience is ultimately 
subjective and particular to each person. How to understand or interpret, let 
alone judge or put some value on someone else's reality/experience is, for me, 
an exercise in futility. I do, however, believe in personal growth and the 
reality of the possibility for the expansion of awareness and the development 
of sensibility in different human beings in different phases of their life or 
lives.
 

I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona that is 
real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort of like the historical 
Buddha was supposed to have been. But most of those who have higher states of 
consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences into egoic focus that 
includes often enough the idea that since everything is a play of awareness, it 
doesn't make a tinker's damn what they do with and to people, cuz its just all 
consciousness playing around. No rules, no standard of conduct, these are the 
ones like Muktananda, Maharishi and Rama who go off the deep end of ego and 
screw things up.
 
 

 I also think that many people who are under the assumption that a sort of 
higher state of consciousness can or does exist in gurus or teachers and 
are therefore responsible for giving these people free licence to do as they 
please and to support them in this, often to the detriment of everyone 
involved. I have yet to see anyone free of ego and I don't think of ego as 
something terrible. Like many characteristics, it can become distorted, 
unbalanced but in and of itself ego is neither good or bad. Just as ambition or 
empathy or passion is not inherently, ultimately good or bad. How it manifests 
can make the difference between something becoming positive, negative or simply 
remaining benign. It's complex, of course.
 

 I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to allow certain individuals 
to spiral out of control. When you put someone on some sort of pedestal it can 
really screw them up, whether they are holy men or holy women or the Justin 
Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of the world. Feed the ego like you would force feed a 
goose to fatten up the liver and sooner or later you create something that is 
unwell.
 


 
 
 
 






 
 


Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Richard Williams
* Did Rama leave a suicide note?*
**
What you need to understand about Rama is that he believed in reincarnation
and karma. Rama's suicide note is contained in his own writings. According
to Rama, the spirit doesn't die when the body dies - your spirit goes into
the Tibetan Bardo state for a few days and then your spirit is reborn in
another suitable physical body. This is all explained in Rama's book,
narrated by Master Fwap. So, the question is not why or how Lenz died, but
where and when he will reappear. Go figure.

[image: Inline image 1]

Zen Master Rama

From what I've read, Lentz was actually offed by paid assassins in a
conspiracy that involved the Master Da. My guess is that the real reason
that Barry is posting from over there in Leiden, is because he knows to
much about Lenz and the secrets of levitation and floating in the air and
golden auras. I'd probably be dead now too, based on what I know about
about the secrets inside the golden dome.

So, I'm hiding out in the Texas Hill Country until all this blows over, you
know what I mean? It seems to be working pretty well because just two weeks
ago I attended a satsang with Rita up in Austin and nobody even recognized
me - I guess they thought I was one of the Indian ex-patriots because I was
wearing a white cotton kurta shirt and had beads in both hands.

Apparently, everyone posting here missed reading Surfing the Himalayas: A
Spiritual Adventure  by Frederick Lentz, one of the best books I've ever
read about snowboarding in the Himalayas. In the words of Master Fwap,
everything makes sense. Master Fwap say that there are many fake spiritual
teachers and masters who have no idea of what enlightenment is and most
can't even fly. They can't even levitate a pencil, much less lay claims to
having endless power and influence over the universe.

Snowboarding to Nirvana is the sequel to Lenz's first book, and he
further explores Buddhist adventures with Master Fwap. In this book Master
Fwap gives specific instructions concerning a meditation technique
advocated by an Oracle. Lenz said that this book offers everything you need
to attain enlightenment. According to Master Fwap:

He told them that he was no longer the 'Last Incarnation of Vishnu The
Cosmic Preserver,' but of Siva The Cosmic Destroyer.

The first condition was that the master’s aura would turn a beautiful
bright golden color when he meditated.

Every living being is psychicDid you know that the vast majority of
thoughts you think and emotions you feel are not even your own? Master
Fwap asked with a wry smile on his face.

Work cited:

'Surfing the Himalayas'
Conversations and Travels with Master Fwap
By Frederick Lenz
St. Martin's Griffin, 1994
p. 55.


On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:57 PM, s3raph...@yahoo.com wrote:



 *Re Guy croaked himself.:*


 *Did Rama leave a suicide note? If not, it seems a funny way to commit
 suicide. Some reports claim he took 80–150 Valium. Valium comes in 2mg, 5mg
 and 10mg strengths. Assume (tops) he took 150 x 10mg = 1,500mg diazepam.
 People have taken 2,000mg of valium and had no bad effects after sleeping
 off the dose for 48 hours. *

 *Some have maintained that Rama took Phenobarbital (Abbie Hoffman's choice
 also) which sounds more likely if he had decided to check out - but don't
 US coroners run proper autopsies to determine exactly what poisons are in
 blood samples?*

 *Either way, the cause of death was drowning! Was that his intention all
 along? Or did he simply drown accidentally after going on a drug bender?*


  



[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread s3raphita
It was pretty clearly a suicide, according to the person who was with him and 
attempted to join him. She survived, he didn't. :

 

 A suicide pact! Well, the fact she survived nicely makes my point that trying 
to overdose on Valium is a dumb idea. He owned a gun so he had a more effective 
means to hand.
 



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
Richard, many times turq has expressed, maybe in different words, this idea 
that followers actually enable leaders. At least once he has said that 
followers are even more responsible.





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 8:45 AM, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com 
wrote:
 
  
Ann:
 I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to allow certain individuals 
 to spiral out of control. When you put someone on some sort of pedestal
 it can really screw them up, whether they are holy men or holy women 
 or the Justin Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of the world. Feed the ego like you 
 would force feed a goose to fatten up the liver and sooner or later you 
 create 
 something that is unwell.

This is a new twist - now it's Barry's fault for enabling Rama. Go figure.



On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:

 
  
Michael wrote:


I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we can all 
have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or enlightened perception, 
including all the celestial perception stuff is just another experience among 
a plethora of experiences.


I agree. I also have a hard time finding greater or lesser validity of any 
particular experience over another. An experience experienced is just that - 
it is reality for that experiencer. And as we all know experience is 
ultimately subjective and particular to each person. How to understand or 
interpret, let alone judge or put some value on someone else's 
reality/experience is, for me, an exercise in futility. I do, however, believe 
in personal growth and the reality of the possibility for the expansion of 
awareness and the development of sensibility in different human beings in 
different phases of their life or lives.


I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona that is 
real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort of like the historical 
Buddha was supposed to have been. But most of those who have higher states of 
consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences into egoic focus that 
includes often enough the idea that since everything is a play of awareness, 
it doesn't make a tinker's damn what they do with and to people, cuz its just 
all consciousness playing around. No rules, no standard of conduct, these are 
the ones like Muktananda, Maharishi and Rama who go off the deep end of ego 
and screw things up.



I also think that many people who are under the assumption that a sort of 
higher state of consciousness can or does exist in gurus or teachers and 
are therefore responsible for giving these people free licence to do as they 
please and to support them in this, often to the detriment of everyone 
involved. I have yet to see anyone free of ego and I don't think of ego as 
something terrible. Like many characteristics, it can become distorted, 
unbalanced but in and of itself ego is neither good or bad. Just as ambition 
or empathy or passion is not inherently, ultimately good or bad. How it 
manifests can make the difference between something becoming positive, 
negative or simply remaining benign. It's complex, of course.


I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to allow certain individuals 
to spiral out of control. When you put someone on some sort of pedestal it can 
really screw them up, whether they are holy men or holy women or the 
Justin Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of the world. Feed the ego like you would 
force feed a goose to fatten up the liver and sooner or later you create 
something that is unwell.





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
emptybill, following up on your last sentence below, how is it possible for a 
teacher to cheat a disciple out of the self-evaluations necessary for real 
sadhana. Surely the disciple has some say in the matter. Do you think this is 
what happened to Robin?





On Friday, January 17, 2014 8:58 PM, emptyb...@yahoo.com 
emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
Michael sez:
 
Robin's experience was that his actions were, as
it were, dictated by cosmic forces, rather than that he could just do whatever
he felt like. His experience was that he could not do other than what he did,
even though at times there was some aspect of himself that didn't want to do
what he was doing.
 
So bottom line I don't buy Robin's assertion that he
in essence was forced to behave in this way by these forces. That
excuse goes back as long as we have had the idea of a Devil. 
 
Emptybill replies:
 
Robin never was interested in
a classical Vedantic assessment of his so-called “enlightenment”. All of this,
in spite of the fact that Shankara’s Vedanta was the proffered basis of
Maharishi’s tradition. Such an assessment would have presented an opposite view
about this whole “enlightenment meme”. I pointed this out to Robin a number of
times but he wasn’t interested in hearing about it. Rather he just wanted to 
espouse
his chosen narrative about how he was deluded by “cosmic entities” but was now
free of them. More of the old - “I didn’t fail … I was fooled” as you also 
pointed
out. 
 
This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of
sadhana (practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old
theme and “gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the 
self-evaluations
necessary for real sadhana. 


Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread nablusoss1008


 According to Mr. Benjamin Crème the state of evolution of Lenz at the time of 
death was 1,3. In other words far from enlightened. 
 He was at a lower level than John Lennon (1,6) and Frank Zappa (1,4) but 
higher than Marilyn Monroe (0,9) and Elvis Presley (0,8)
 

 http://www.share-berlin.info/list.htm http://www.share-berlin.info/list.htm
 

 



[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill

 Prof. P. Dog sez:
 

 MMY's sadhana is based on yoga practice. If it was Vedantic, MMY would have 
emphasized the Vedantic notion of maya, which is not real, yet not unreal. 

 

 Your view of Vedanta is that it is Maya-vada ... a teaching about Maya. This 
is a classical misrepresentation that began with Ramanuja and continues today. 
It infiltrated Vedanta with the works of Swami Vidyaranya, who wrote 
Panchadasi. 

 

 Its modern proponent was Vivekananda and MMY just continued that mode – 
including the division of the Bha. Gita into three topical sections, also found 
in Aurobindo. This form of interpretation is known as Yogic Advaita and is more 
about yoga and less about Vedanta. 
 

 The whole concept of “enlightenment” is Buddhist not Vedantic. Shankara’s 
Vedanta teaches the ascertainment of one’s own true nature, not 
chitta-nirvikalpa or Buddhist dhyana-samadhi. The purpose of the teaching is 
realization of moksha (freedom) - liberation from any experience, whether 
inner, outer or transcendent. 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Michael Jackson
If you mean the kind of scientific objectivity that the TMO uses, anything goes.

On Sat, 1/18/14, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: Richard J. Williams FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Saturday, January 18, 2014, 2:39 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Michael
 Jackson: I do
 think some folk have done it like maybe good old Saint
 Joseph of 
  Cupertino and am willing to
 believe Rama may have done, as the
 Brits  say. 
 So,if
 anyone could really demonstrate levitation, the event would
 probably be on the cover of every science magazine, on TV
 and in the news every day for years.An levitation event that
 if true, would revolutionize science and cause a Copernican
 revolution in he laws of physics and the theory of general
 relativity. But, this event seems to have been missed -
 it's not even mentioned in Mark Laxer's book about
 Rama. Go figure.
 
  M never demonstrated cause
 he couldn't do it.
 According to your own logic it
 could have been possible for MMY to hop, levitate float and
 fly,even if nobody saw the event. You
 realize you and Barry have just blown any semblance of
 scientific objectivity, right? Maybe it's time for you
 two to apologize for posting all those fibs making fun of
 the TMer bun-hoppers on the forum.
 
 
 
 
 
 On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 6:01 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Oh, I see that you mean. As to my own belief, I
 made no comment on the reality of Lenz's levitation
 demonstration. I have done TMSP and it certainly doesn't
 qualify as flying in any way. I do think some folk have done
 it like maybe good old Saint Joseph of Cupertino and am
 willing to believe Rama may have done, as the Brits say. M
 never demonstrated cause he couldn't do it.
 
 
 
 
 On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible
 thing.
 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
  Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 6:05 PM
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 

 
On 1/17/2014 9:46 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
 
  
 
   It looks like you've changed your mind
 about
 
  the 
 
  
 
   bun-hopping-levitation too.
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   I have no idea why you would say that. 
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  Well, it's settled then - humans can fly and levitate;
 
  we have several 
 
  
 
  eye-witnesses on the forum who can testify to this. So, I
 
  wonder why 
 
  
 
  Barry was making fun of MMY and the bun-hopping? Go
 figure.
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
If I may comment, presumably the disciple doesn't know any better. How can the 
disciple demand something he or she doesn't know is necessary?
 

 FWIW, I've always thought Maharishi didn't give Robin the help he needed after 
he'd had this profoundly transformative experience on the mountain. Robin 
didn't think he needed any guidance, but he would surely have accepted it if 
Maharishi had offered it.
 

 Whether whatever Maharishi could have given him in the way of guidance would 
have made a difference, I have no idea. But it's almost as if Maharishi wanted 
to see what he'd do if left to his own devices. He kept close tabs on Robin 
once he'd gone off to teach on his own in Canada but never interfered, and even 
told Bevan to leave Robin alone when he came to MIU and started causing 
trouble, leading Robin to assume he approved of what Robin was doing.
 

 I sure could be wrong, but I'm inclined to put some of the blame for what 
ultimately happened to Robin on Maharishi's hands-off approach.
 

  emptybill, following up on your last sentence below, how is it possible for 
a teacher to cheat a disciple out of the self-evaluations necessary for real 
sadhana. Surely the disciple has some say in the matter. Do you think this is 
what happened to Robin? 
 

 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 
 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
Judy, I don't think self evaluation is something that a disciple needs to 
demand. In my experience, life makes it obvious when self evaluation is needed! 
On second thought, I think empty meant that if the guru emphasizes experience, 
meaning spiritual experience, then the disciple will go with that, perhaps 
ignoring the feedback he or she is getting from life, from all the other 
experiences he or she is having, assuming that one is have more than just 
spiritual experiences since one is still in a body!

It could be that Maharishi realized that, as you say above, Robin thought he 
didn't need guidance and thus Maharishi didn't offer it. 

Many people, myself included, have gone outside of the TMO to get what we need 
in terms of healing and continuing human development. As I've said before, that 
I've been able to do this proves to me that the TMO is not a cult.

IMO it's good if people simply learn from their mistakes without the need to 
blame and or feel ashamed of their mistakes.





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 10:48 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
If I may comment, presumably the disciple doesn't know any better. How can the 
disciple demand something he or she doesn't know is necessary?

FWIW, I've always thought Maharishi didn't give Robin the help he needed after 
he'd had this profoundly transformative experience on the mountain. Robin 
didn't think he needed any guidance, but he would surely have accepted it if 
Maharishi had offered it.

Whether whatever Maharishi could have given him in the way of guidance would 
have made a difference, I have no idea. But it's almost as if Maharishi wanted 
to see what he'd do if left to his own devices. He kept close tabs on Robin 
once he'd gone off to teach on his own in Canada but never interfered, and even 
told Bevan to leave Robin alone when he came to MIU and started causing 
trouble, leading Robin to assume he approved of what Robin was doing.

I sure could be wrong, but I'm inclined to put some of the blame for what 
ultimately happened to Robin on Maharishi's hands-off approach.



 emptybill, following up on your last sentence below, how is it possible for 
a teacher to cheat a disciple out of the self-evaluations necessary for real 
sadhana. Surely the disciple has some say in the matter. Do you think this is 
what happened to Robin? 


This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of
sadhana (practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old
theme and “gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the 
self-evaluations
necessary for real sadhana. 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread awoelflebater


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:

 If I may comment, presumably the disciple doesn't know any better. How can the 
disciple demand something he or she doesn't know is necessary?
 

 FWIW, I've always thought Maharishi didn't give Robin the help he needed after 
he'd had this profoundly transformative experience on the mountain. Robin 
didn't think he needed any guidance, but he would surely have accepted it if 
Maharishi had offered it.
 

 Whether whatever Maharishi could have given him in the way of guidance would 
have made a difference, I have no idea. But it's almost as if Maharishi wanted 
to see what he'd do if left to his own devices. He kept close tabs on Robin 
once he'd gone off to teach on his own in Canada but never interfered, and even 
told Bevan to leave Robin alone when he came to MIU and started causing 
trouble, leading Robin to assume he approved of what Robin was doing.
 

 I sure could be wrong, but I'm inclined to put some of the blame for what 
ultimately happened to Robin on Maharishi's hands-off approach.
 

 I would have to say that if someone is putting someone else in a position 
where they might be able to access other states of consciousness, where their 
reality, their orientation to their world and their life can be substantially 
altered by this new state of consciousness then this person who is, in some 
sense, engineering or facilitating this change needs to follow through and 
guide the newcomer within these altered/higher/different states. To give 
someone a tab of LSD and then leave them to their own devices is only asking 
for trouble if the 'tripper' becomes confused or freaked out or afraid. You 
wouldn't hand a kid the keys to a bulldozer or put your grandmother on an 
unbroke horse. Why would/should a spiritual teacher lead one to the precipice 
of enlightenment and simply turn away and leave? If a teacher has the 
'technology' to offer someone the means for such a drastic change their life 
then they have a responsibility to guide them within the new landscape of their 
consciousness.
 

  emptybill, following up on your last sentence below, how is it possible for 
a teacher to cheat a disciple out of the self-evaluations necessary for real 
sadhana. Surely the disciple has some say in the matter. Do you think this is 
what happened to Robin? 
 

 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 
 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 







[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson  wrote:

 if you don't understand how people make excuses for then own behavior
then you need more life experience - do you think just because someone
says something, they are being truthful, including with themselves?

I think Judy's trying to say that if a delusional person firmly
*believes* that they are being made to do something by forces outside
their control, they're blameless. She and Robin both probably believe
that the real culprit in the Son Of Sam murders was the demon who
talked to David Berkowitz through his neighbor's dog.  :-)





[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
LSD still comes in tabs? 
 

 How would you know that?
 Perhaps you read about it on MSLSD.
 

 (disclaimer for the NSA snoops: I don't know nothin' bout nothin')

 

 

 



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
Maybe your experience isn't the be-all and end-all for everybody, Share, not to 
mention that you haven't had the sort of sudden profoundly transformative 
experience Robin had. In any case, Robin got all kinds of positive feedback; 
nobody questioned his enlightenment. Life didn't make it obvious, or even 
evident, that self-evaluation was needed until years down the line when his 
group fell apart--and once that happened, he embarked on 25 years of 
self-evaluation and self-reform.
 

 Also, I can't imagine a teacher not at least offering guidance to a disciple 
whose experience of himself and of the world has been so utterly and 
unexpectedly changed without any preparation, even if the disciple doesn't ask 
for it.

 

 FWIW, Robin has never blamed Maharishi for what happened to him. That was my 
suggestion, not his. Robin has never blamed anyone but himself.
 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 
  Judy, I don't think self evaluation is something that a disciple needs to 
demand. In my experience, life makes it obvious when self evaluation is needed! 
On second thought, I think empty meant that if the guru emphasizes experience, 
meaning spiritual experience, then the disciple will go with that, perhaps 
ignoring the feedback he or she is getting from life, from all the other 
experiences he or she is having, assuming that one is have more than just 
spiritual experiences since one is still in a body!

It could be that Maharishi realized that, as you say above, Robin thought he 
didn't need guidance and thus Maharishi didn't offer it. 

Many people, myself included, have gone outside of the TMO to get what we need 
in terms of healing and continuing human development. As I've said before, that 
I've been able to do this proves to me that the TMO is not a cult.

IMO it's good if people simply learn from their mistakes without the need to 
blame and or feel ashamed of their mistakes. 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 10:48 AM, authfriend@... authfriend@... 
wrote:
 
   If I may comment, presumably the disciple doesn't know any better. How can 
the disciple demand something he or she doesn't know is necessary?
 

 FWIW, I've always thought Maharishi didn't give Robin the help he needed after 
he'd had this profoundly transformative experience on the mountain. Robin 
didn't think he needed any guidance, but he would surely have accepted it if 
Maharishi had offered it.
 

 Whether whatever Maharishi could have given him in the way of guidance would 
have made a difference, I have no idea. But it's almost as if Maharishi wanted 
to see what he'd do if left to his own devices. He kept close tabs on Robin 
once he'd gone off to teach on his own in Canada but never interfered, and even 
told Bevan to leave Robin alone when he came to MIU and started causing 
trouble, leading Robin to assume he approved of what Robin was doing.
 

 I sure could be wrong, but I'm inclined to put some of the blame for what 
ultimately happened to Robin on Maharishi's hands-off approach.
 

  emptybill, following up on your last sentence below, how is it possible for 
a teacher to cheat a disciple out of the self-evaluations necessary for real 
sadhana. Surely the disciple has some say in the matter. Do you think this is 
what happened to Robin? 
 

 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 
 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
I knew Barry wouldn't be able to resist the opportunity to demonize Robin and 
me after I commented on Michael's post. I also knew he'd fuck it up badly, 
which is precisely what he's done. He thinks he can divine what I'm trying to 
say without having read what I actually said (or what Robin actually said, for 
that matter). One more time: Robin took all the blame for his behavior (and I'm 
certainly in no position to disagree). Unlike Barry, Robin believes in being 
accountable for one's actions.
 
  if you don't understand how people make excuses for then own behavior then 
  you need more life experience - do you think just because someone says 
  something, they are being truthful, including with themselves?

 I think Judy's trying to say that if a delusional person firmly *believes* 
that they are being made to do something by forces outside their control, 
they're blameless. She and Robin both probably believe that the real culprit in 
the Son Of Sam murders was the demon who talked to David Berkowitz through 
his neighbor's dog.  :-)






[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
MMY was not a personal guru and said so many times. How could he, with so many 
followers? At my TTC in Fiuggi, there were over 2,000 teachers. Just getting 
the mantras of initiation took about 1-1/2 hours of waiting to go through the 
whole process. 

 

 A personal guru (like Shri Yukteshwar) gives strict guideline to help form the 
personality of a student. Self-evaluation is part of that practice. 

 

 What MMY gave was simple - practice your own culture's ethics and teach TM. He 
only gave a general outline about yama-niyama once (at Humbolt TTC). He may 
have taught more elsewhere but he was moving the TM Movement and that was his 
focus. 
 

 Robin probably didn't get anything more than anyone else. 




 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:

 If I may comment, presumably the disciple doesn't know any better. How can the 
disciple demand something he or she doesn't know is necessary?
 

 FWIW, I've always thought Maharishi didn't give Robin the help he needed after 
he'd had this profoundly transformative experience on the mountain. Robin 
didn't think he needed any guidance, but he would surely have accepted it if 
Maharishi had offered it.
 

 Whether whatever Maharishi could have given him in the way of guidance would 
have made a difference, I have no idea. But it's almost as if Maharishi wanted 
to see what he'd do if left to his own devices. He kept close tabs on Robin 
once he'd gone off to teach on his own in Canada but never interfered, and even 
told Bevan to leave Robin alone when he came to MIU and started causing 
trouble, leading Robin to assume he approved of what Robin was doing.
 

 I sure could be wrong, but I'm inclined to put some of the blame for what 
ultimately happened to Robin on Maharishi's hands-off approach.
 

  emptybill, following up on your last sentence below, how is it possible for 
a teacher to cheat a disciple out of the self-evaluations necessary for real 
sadhana. Surely the disciple has some say in the matter. Do you think this is 
what happened to Robin? 
 

 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 
 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 




 


[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

 I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible.



[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
How many followers did Maharishi have who had an experience similar to Robin's 
of popping into what seemed to be Unity Consciousness without any warning in 
the space of a minute or two?
 

 It's one thing not to give personal attention to thousands of grunts slogging 
along with their sadhana. It's quite another not to give personal attention to 
the person out of all those grunts who suddenly appeared to have achieved the 
very pinnacle of what the grunts were working toward.
 
 MMY was not a personal guru and said so many times. How could he, with so many 
followers? At my TTC in Fiuggi, there were over 2,000 teachers. Just getting 
the mantras of initiation took about 1-1/2 hours of waiting to go through the 
whole process. 

 

 A personal guru (like Shri Yukteshwar) gives strict guideline to help form the 
personality of a student. Self-evaluation is part of that practice. 

 

 What MMY gave was simple - practice your own culture's ethics and teach TM. He 
only gave a general outline about yama-niyama once (at Humbolt TTC). He may 
have taught more elsewhere but he was moving the TM Movement and that was his 
focus. 
 

 Robin probably didn't get anything more than anyone else. 




 

 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:

 If I may comment, presumably the disciple doesn't know any better. How can the 
disciple demand something he or she doesn't know is necessary?
 

 FWIW, I've always thought Maharishi didn't give Robin the help he needed after 
he'd had this profoundly transformative experience on the mountain. Robin 
didn't think he needed any guidance, but he would surely have accepted it if 
Maharishi had offered it.
 

 Whether whatever Maharishi could have given him in the way of guidance would 
have made a difference, I have no idea. But it's almost as if Maharishi wanted 
to see what he'd do if left to his own devices. He kept close tabs on Robin 
once he'd gone off to teach on his own in Canada but never interfered, and even 
told Bevan to leave Robin alone when he came to MIU and started causing 
trouble, leading Robin to assume he approved of what Robin was doing.
 

 I sure could be wrong, but I'm inclined to put some of the blame for what 
ultimately happened to Robin on Maharishi's hands-off approach.
 

  emptybill, following up on your last sentence below, how is it possible for 
a teacher to cheat a disciple out of the self-evaluations necessary for real 
sadhana. Surely the disciple has some say in the matter. Do you think this is 
what happened to Robin? 
 

 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 
 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 




 




[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread nablusoss1008
Muktananda said Maharishi wasn't a personal Guru because he was taking care of 
(being the Guru of) the whole world.


[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
So many World Teachers ... SBS, MMY and Robin.

How many world teachers does it take to liberate everyone?
None.

[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
The first way of repentance is condemnation of sins. 'You must declare your 
own sins first that you may be justified.' Wherefore also the prophet said 'I 
said, I will speak out, my transgression to the Lord, and You remitted the 
iniquity of my heart.' Condemn yourself therefore for your own sins. This is 
enough for the Master by way of self-defense. For he who condemns his sins, is 
slower to fall into them again. Awake your conscience, that inward accuser, in 
order that you may have no accuser at the judgment seat of the Lord.--St. John 
Chrysostom
 
  And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

 I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:

 MMY was not a personal guru and said so many times. How could he, with
so many followers? At my TTC in Fiuggi, there were over 2,000 teachers.
Just getting the mantras of initiation took about 1-1/2 hours of waiting
to go through the whole process.

  A personal guru (like Shri Yukteshwar) gives strict guideline to help
form the personality of a student. Self-evaluation is part of that
practice.

  What MMY gave was simple - practice your own culture's ethics and
teach TM. He only gave a general outline about yama-niyama once (at
Humbolt TTC). He may have taught more elsewhere but he was moving the TM
Movement and that was his focus.

  Robin probably didn't get anything more than anyone else.

Maharishi wouldn't have been *able* to give any advice to anyone having
actual experiences of higher states of consciousness, never having
experienced them himself. He did the same thing with everyone who ever
claimed such experiences -- blow them off with a hearty Something good
is happening and go back to selling beginner meditation to people who
thought it was advanced.





[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread doctordumbass
Works for me.
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote:

 Muktananda said Maharishi wasn't a personal Guru because he was taking care of 
(being the Guru of) the whole world.




[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
This is the essence of confession (a renewal of baptism). It was originally a 
practice that started with ordinary people seeking out desert monastics who 
spent their live in askesis. Only later was it usurped by priests whose actual 
job was just the rite of absolution. 
 

 
 The belief of the Greek Church is naturally also that of the Russian in this 
regard. Russian Orthodox theologians all hold that the Church possesses the 
power to forgive sins, where there is true repentance and sincere confession. 
The form in use at present is as follows: 

 

 My child, N. N., may our Lord and God Christ Jesus by the mercy of His love 
absolve thee from thy sins; and I, His unworthy priest, in virtue of the 
authority committed to me, absolve thee and declare thee absolved of thy sins 
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.


[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
Right. So my mistake in being contemptuous of the idea that one should never 
feel shame for one's mistakes is what, exactly?
 

 Obviously one shouldn't be wallowing in shame after having been absolved, but 
if one isn't feeling any shame to start with, why would one seek absolution?
 

 
 This is the essence of confession (a renewal of baptism). It was originally a 
practice that started with ordinary people seeking out desert monastics who 
spent their live in askesis. Only later was it usurped by priests whose actual 
job was just the rite of absolution. 
 

 
 The belief of the Greek Church is naturally also that of the Russian in this 
regard. Russian Orthodox theologians all hold that the Church possesses the 
power to forgive sins, where there is true repentance and sincere confession. 
The form in use at present is as follows: 

 

 My child, N. N., may our Lord and God Christ Jesus by the mercy of His love 
absolve thee from thy sins; and I, His unworthy priest, in virtue of the 
authority committed to me, absolve thee and declare thee absolved of thy sins 
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.




[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.
 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible.

Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to make 
amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something fundamentally 
wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong.





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptyb...@yahoo.com 
emptyb...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.


And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 


Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an arbitrary 
distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary says shame 
is:
 

 a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety

 

 I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.
 

  emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 

 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:
 
   Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.

 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 





Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary psychology 
and I agree with your last sentence.




On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an arbitrary 
distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary says shame 
is:

a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety


I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.



 emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 






On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:
 
  
Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.


And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 




[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
Say, emptybill, did you ever think about the possibility of actually answering 
a question rather than delivering yourself of faux koans? Because your 
persistent nonanswers leave one with the sense that you don't have any answers, 
you're just spouting off at random with no concern for making sense.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill@... wrote:

 Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.
 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible.



Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.
 

 And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.
 

 My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.
 
 Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary 
psychology and I agree with your last sentence.
 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an 
arbitrary distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary 
says shame is:
 

 a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety

 

 I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.
 

  emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 

 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:
 
   Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.

 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 





Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between guilt 
which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling that 
one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.

And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.

My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.


Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary psychology 
and I agree with your last sentence.




On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an arbitrary 
distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary says shame 
is:

a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety


I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.



 emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 






On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:

  
Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.


And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 






Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).
 

  Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between 
guilt which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling 
that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.
 

 And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.
 

 My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.
 
 Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary 
psychology and I agree with your last sentence.
 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an 
arbitrary distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary 
says shame is:
 

 a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety

 

 I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.
 

  emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 

 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:
 
   Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.

 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 





Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that people are 
defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief and I doubt 
that Jesus taught it. 

I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on 
Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that some Pope 
made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry!





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).



 Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between guilt 
which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling that 
one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.

And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.

My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.


Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary psychology 
and I agree with your last sentence.




On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an arbitrary 
distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary says shame 
is:

a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety


I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.



 emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 






On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:

  
Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.


And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 








Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.
 

 I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, 
a reminder that this is what Christianity says.
 

 The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing industry is apocryphal, 
BTW. Days of penitence, including the practice of abstaining from meat, had 
been established long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry important 
enough for a pope to be concerned about.
 

  Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that people 
are defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief and I doubt 
that Jesus taught it. 

 
I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on 
Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that some Pope 
made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry! 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).
 

  Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between 
guilt which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling 
that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.
 

 And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.
 

 My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.
 
 Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary 
psychology and I agree with your last sentence.
 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an 
arbitrary distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary 
says shame is:
 

 a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety

 

 I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.
 

  emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 

 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:
 
   Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.

 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 





[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
The Dancing Fool - by Kilgore Trout

 

 A flying saucer creature named Zog arrived on Earth to explain how wars could 
be prevented and how cancer could be cured. He brought the information from 
Margo, a planet where the natives conversed by means of farts and tap dancing.
 
Zog landed at night in Connecticut. He had no sooner touched down than he saw a 
house on fire. He rushed into the house, farting and tap dancing, warning the 
people about the terrible danger they were in. The head of the house brained 
Zog with a golf club.


Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
Judy, true you said Christianity but my personal experience is with 
Catholicism. I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are defective by 
nature and I don't believe that Jesus taught that.





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.

I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, a 
reminder that this is what Christianity says.

The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing industry is apocryphal, 
BTW. Days of penitence, including the practice of abstaining from meat, had 
been established long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry important 
enough for a pope to be concerned about.

 Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that people 
are defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief and I doubt 
that Jesus taught it. 


I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on 
Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that some Pope 
made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry! 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).



 Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between guilt 
which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling that 
one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.

And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.

My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.


Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary psychology 
and I agree with your last sentence.




On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an arbitrary 
distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary says shame 
is:

a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety


I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.



 emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 






On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:

  
Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.


And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 










Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread anartaxius
There are a few splinter Christian churches that do not follow the idea that we 
are inherently sinful, but are instead, inherently good. One such church is the 
Unity Church of Practical Christianity. On the other hand the majority of 
Christian flavours do indeed seem to regard our species as base and vile in 
some way. Should a creator that makes such defective merchandise really be 
revered for attempting to patch its mistakes? It really does not make much 
sense. OK, y'all are bad, doomed, so I'll send my son and kill him for your 
benefit. After all this time it is hard to tell what Jesus actually taught; it 
may have had a more esoteric meaning in the beginning, but it is that more 
abstract way of interpretation that tends to get lost as time marches on.
 
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:

 I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.
 

 I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, 
a reminder that this is what Christianity says.
 





Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
And I never said you should believe it. Why are you repeating yourself?
 

 If you don't think you stand in need of redemption, that's fine with me.
 
  Judy, true you said Christianity but my personal experience is with 
Catholicism. I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are defective by 
nature and I don't believe that Jesus taught that. 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.
 

 I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, 
a reminder that this is what Christianity says.
 

 The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing industry is apocryphal, 
BTW. Days of penitence, including the practice of abstaining from meat, had 
been established long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry important 
enough for a pope to be concerned about.
 

  Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that people 
are defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief and I doubt 
that Jesus taught it. 

 
I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on 
Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that some Pope 
made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry! 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).
 

  Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between 
guilt which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling 
that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.
 

 And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.
 

 My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.
 
 Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary 
psychology and I agree with your last sentence.
 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an 
arbitrary distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary 
says shame is:
 

 a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety

 

 I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.
 

  emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 

 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:
 
   Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.

 

 And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
 

I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 




 
 
 
 



 
 

 
 



 
 
 
 





[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
I live in the City of Unity. I did a number of residence courses at Unity 
Village - back in the old days. Unity Village is a fabulous facility but now 
there are a number of other  Unity facilities - such as Unity Temple on the 
Plaza and Unity Church of Overland Park.

 

 Unity Temple on the Plaza is full of meditation groups and classes - 
Vipassana, Mahayana, Zen, Vajrayana, Dzogchen ... all because they have a 
Buddhist Center there. This also is where Khachab Rinpoche teaches Dzogchen 
twice a year when he comes into town.. 

 

 Unity Church of Overland Park is a few blocks away from my residence. I even 
live next to a Unity minister. So they are pretty much everywhere. Each Unity 
facility has specialized in a particular part of the spiritual marketplace so 
their appeal has been well thought out. 

 

 
 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote:

 There are a few splinter Christian churches that do not follow the idea that 
we are inherently sinful, but are instead, inherently good. One such church is 
the Unity Church of Practical Christianity. On the other hand the majority of 
Christian flavours do indeed seem to regard our species as base and vile in 
some way. Should a creator that makes such defective merchandise really be 
revered for attempting to patch its mistakes? It really does not make much 
sense. OK, y'all are bad, doomed, so I'll send my son and kill him for your 
benefit. After all this time it is hard to tell what Jesus actually taught; it 
may have had a more esoteric meaning in the beginning, but it is that more 
abstract way of interpretation that tends to get lost as time marches on.
 
 
 
 


[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread awoelflebater


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill@... wrote:

 LSD still comes in tabs? 
 

 How would you know that?
 

 Empty always asking the really important questions...
 

 Perhaps you read about it on MSLSD.
 

 (disclaimer for the NSA snoops: I don't know nothin' bout nothin')

 

 

 





[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread dhamiltony2k5
Wow, I just googled,  Unity Temple on the Plaza.
 I want to come see this as 'field' study of communal groups.  Is it a cult?
 There was a Unity Church here in Fairfield for a while but it seemed that it 
fell in to a parting of ways between spiritual meditators here and ideological 
stick in the mud orthodox kind of Unity people from Kansas.  There is some 
story there. 
 -Buck in the Dome 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill@... wrote:

 I live in the City of Unity. I did a number of residence courses at Unity 
Village - back in the old days. Unity Village is a fabulous facility but now 
there are a number of other  Unity facilities - such as Unity Temple on the 
Plaza and Unity Church of Overland Park.

 

 Unity Temple on the Plaza is full of meditation groups and classes - 
Vipassana, Mahayana, Zen, Vajrayana, Dzogchen ... all because they have a 
Buddhist Center there. This also is where Khachab Rinpoche teaches Dzogchen 
twice a year when he comes into town.. 

 

 Unity Church of Overland Park is a few blocks away from my residence. I even 
live next to a Unity minister. So they are pretty much everywhere. Each Unity 
facility has specialized in a particular part of the spiritual marketplace so 
their appeal has been well thought out. 

 

 
 
 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote:

 There are a few splinter Christian churches that do not follow the idea that 
we are inherently sinful, but are instead, inherently good. One such church is 
the Unity Church of Practical Christianity. On the other hand the majority of 
Christian flavours do indeed seem to regard our species as base and vile in 
some way. Should a creator that makes such defective merchandise really be 
revered for attempting to patch its mistakes? It really does not make much 
sense. OK, y'all are bad, doomed, so I'll send my son and kill him for your 
benefit. After all this time it is hard to tell what Jesus actually taught; it 
may have had a more esoteric meaning in the beginning, but it is that more 
abstract way of interpretation that tends to get lost as time marches on.
 
 
 
 




[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
Not a cult but rather a church. Most Christian don't consider it Christian 
because it isn't the exclusionary type with which they identity.



Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Share Long
Judy, once again I think it is a matter of language choice. I would say that I 
need to fully realize my fundamental unity with the divine, with all of 
creation. Rather than that I stand in need of redemption. For me, each of these 
wordings has its own flavor or tone. I prefer the former wording for various 
reasons. It may not be how the Church would say it. But I believe it is closer 
to how Jesus would express it.

I recognize that all of us humans need to grow. What I reject is the idea that 
we are defective in our core, by our very nature. I guess that makes me 
apostate!





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:21 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
  
And I never said you should believe it. Why are you repeating yourself?

If you don't think you stand in need of redemption, that's fine with me.


 Judy, true you said Christianity but my personal experience is with 
Catholicism. I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are defective by 
nature and I don't believe that Jesus taught that. 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.

I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, a 
reminder that this is what Christianity says.

The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing industry is apocryphal, 
BTW. Days of penitence, including the practice of abstaining from meat, had 
been established long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry important 
enough for a pope to be concerned about.

 Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that people 
are defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief and I doubt 
that Jesus taught it. 


I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on 
Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that some Pope 
made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry! 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).



 Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between guilt 
which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling that 
one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 





On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.

And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.

My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.


Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary psychology 
and I agree with your last sentence.




On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
  
That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an arbitrary 
distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary says shame 
is:

a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety


I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.



 emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and to 
make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something 
fundamentally wrong with the person rather than that they did something wrong. 






On Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:42 PM, emptybill@... emptybill@... wrote:

  
Judy - it was a play upon and between words and meaning.
You should've gotten it.


And finally, I find the notion that one should never feel shame for one's 
mistakes contemptible.
I feel shame that your mistaken notion is contemptible. 












Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread authfriend
But you don't seem able to see that while the language is different, it's the 
same fundamental idea. Redemption for Christians is the Beatific Vision, being 
at one with God forever. We are not born in that state; we are defective in 
that respect. You weren't born in the state of full realization of your 
fundamental unity with the divine, so you are defective in that respect. 
Something is missing. Obviously in both cases it's a core defect--how could 
unity with the Divine not be the core quality of a human being?
 

 People take words much too literally instead of looking at the principles 
behind them.
 

  Judy, once again I think it is a matter of language choice. I would say 
that I need to fully realize my fundamental unity with the divine, with all of 
creation. Rather than that I stand in need of redemption. For me, each of these 
wordings has its own flavor or tone. I prefer the former wording for various 
reasons. It may not be how the Church would say it. But I believe it is closer 
to how Jesus would express it.

I recognize that all of us humans need to grow. What I reject is the idea that 
we are defective in our core, by our very nature. I guess that makes me 
apostate! 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:21 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   And I never said you should believe it. Why are you repeating yourself?
 

 If you don't think you stand in need of redemption, that's fine with me.
 
  Judy, true you said Christianity but my personal experience is with 
Catholicism. I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are defective by 
nature and I don't believe that Jesus taught that. 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm astonished 
you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board. As I said, if 
we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to send Jesus to redeem 
us and make us acceptable in God's sight.
 

 I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an aside, 
a reminder that this is what Christianity says.
 

 The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing industry is apocryphal, 
BTW. Days of penitence, including the practice of abstaining from meat, had 
been established long before there was a Portuguese fishing industry important 
enough for a pope to be concerned about.
 

  Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that people 
are defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief and I doubt 
that Jesus taught it. 

 
I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on 
Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that some Pope 
made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry! 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words is 
arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently healthy. 
You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one 
shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least no 
more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of course, 
that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective; otherwise we wouldn't 
need redemption).
 

  Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between 
guilt which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates feeling 
that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 
 

 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the sense 
that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was something 
wrong with what you did.
 

 And anyway, the sense that there's nothing wrong with you is delusionary. If 
there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the 
first place. It's just a faux distinction. Psychologists don't want you to beat 
yourself up endlessly about what you did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean 
you shouldn't feel shame at all, ever.
 

 My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the 
dictionary) mean--by shame.
 
 Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary 
psychology and I agree with your last sentence.
 
 
 On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@... wrote:
 
   That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an 
arbitrary distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. My dictionary 
says shame is:
 

 a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or 
impropriety

 

 I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done something 
wrong, there's something wrong with you.
 

  emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong 

[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread dhamiltony2k5
Empty,  In their Unity Temple on the Plaza complex in the Kansas City area do 
they have open silent group transcending non-denominal meditation time, 
something like Quiet Time meditations?  Do you need a badge to sit meditating 
with the group if you happen to be visiting Kansas City?  I'd like to go to the 
Nelson art museum in KC and then have a place to go meditate. . 
 -Buck 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill@... wrote:

 Not a cult but rather a church. Most Christian don't consider it Christian 
because it isn't the exclusionary type with which they identity.





Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread Richard Williams
Share:
 What I reject is the idea that we are defective in our core, by
 our very nature. I guess that makes me apostate!

Well, it looks like it's settled then: MJ and the TurqoiseB were the real
True Believers, whose religion was TM -  - the only apostates left on the
forum. It looks like nobody else on FFL ever considered TM to be their
religion. You can't be apostate from something you don't believe in. Go
figure.


On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:14 PM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com wrote:



 Judy, once again I think it is a matter of language choice. I would say
 that I need to fully realize my fundamental unity with the divine, with all
 of creation. Rather than that I stand in need of redemption. For me, each
 of these wordings has its own flavor or tone. I prefer the former wording
 for various reasons. It may not be how the Church would say it. But I
 believe it is closer to how Jesus would express it.

 I recognize that all of us humans need to grow. What I reject is the idea
 that we are defective in our core, by our very nature. I guess that makes
 me apostate!




   On Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:21 PM, authfri...@yahoo.com 
 authfri...@yahoo.com wrote:

  *And I never said you should believe it. Why are you repeating yourself?*

 *If you don't think you stand in need of redemption, that's fine with me.*

  Judy, true you said Christianity but my personal experience is with
 Catholicism. I still think it's unhealthy to think that humans are
 defective by nature and I don't believe that Jesus taught that. 



   On Saturday, January 18, 2014 3:50 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@...
 wrote:

  *I do believe I said Christianity, not Catholicism, Share. I'm
 astonished you weren't aware that it's Christian doctrine across the board.
 As I said, if we weren't defective, there'd have been no need for God to
 send Jesus to redeem us and make us acceptable in God's sight.*

 *I'm not saying you or anybody else should believe this. It was just an
 aside, a reminder that this is what Christianity says.*

 *The story about the pope and the Portuguese fishing industry is
 apocryphal, BTW. Days of penitence, including the practice of abstaining
 from meat, had been established long before there was a Portuguese fishing
 industry important enough for a pope to be concerned about.*

  Judy, this is where I part company with Catholicism, the belief that
 people are defective at their core. I don't think this is a healthy belief
 and I doubt that Jesus taught it.

 I left the Church when they said it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat
 on Friday. I realized how arbitrary their rules are. Later I heard that
 some Pope made that rule to help the Portuguese fishing industry! 



   On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:51 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@...
 wrote:

  Did you not read what I wrote, Share? The distinction in terms of words
 is arbitrary. Shame isn't inherently toxic, and guilt isn't inherently 
 healthy.
 You can redefine the words all you want, but all you're saying is that one
 shouldn't feel that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective (or at least
 no more so than anybody else--it's a basic doctrine of Christianity, of
 course, that everyone is fundamentally wrong, bad, and defective;
 otherwise we wouldn't need redemption).


  Judy, contemporary psychologists find it useful to distinguish between
 guilt which is healthy and shame which is toxic, where shame indicates
 feeling that one is fundamentally wrong, bad, defective. 



   On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:31 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@...
 wrote:

  It's still an arbitrary distinction, Share. Shame need not involve the
 sense that there's something wrong with you rather than that there was
 something wrong with what you did.

 And anyway, the sense that there's *nothing* wrong with you is
 delusionary. If there were nothing wrong with you, you wouldn't have done
 anything wrong in the first place. It's just a faux distinction.
 Psychologists don't want you to beat yourself up endlessly about what you
 did, and that's fine, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't feel shame at all,
 ever.

 My last sentence is what I mean--and what  most people (including the
 dictionary) mean--by shame.

 Judy, my distinction between shame and guilt comes from contemporary
 psychology and I agree with your last sentence.


   On Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:03 PM, authfriend@... authfriend@...
 wrote:

  *That's your personal definition of shame, Share. You're making an
 arbitrary distinction between feeling guilt and feeling shame. **My
 dictionary says shame is:*

 *a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or
 impropriety*

 *I'd say if you are unable or refuse to feel pain about having done
 something wrong, there's something wrong with you.*


  emptybill, I think it's appropriate to feel guilt about wrong doing and
 to make amends. But imo shame is toxic. It says that there's something
 fundamentally wrong with the person 

Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread s3raphita
Re People take words much too literally:

 

 That's my view. I think the original founders of the world religions were 
talking about a change in consciousness. They had an insight (ie in - sight). 
The unwashed masses take the words as a description of the objective world out 
there. As the everyday world out there doesn't match the founders' 
descriptions they are then forced to imagine a supernatural world were those 
words would apply.


[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-18 Thread emptybill
http://www.nelson-atkins.org/
 http://www.nelson-atkins.org/ http://www.nelson-atkins.org/
 
 http://www.unitytemple.com/healing/hmedit.asp 
http://www.unitytemple.com/healing/hmedit.asp
 
http://www.martydybiczphd.com/Pages/MeditationSchedule.aspx 
http://www.martydybiczphd.com/Pages/MeditationSchedule.aspx 


[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson  wrote:

 I am still reading - its a pretty extraordinary book, to me anyway.
You are quite the writer and should I ever be able to write to that
level, I will be a happy man.

 I am still feeling energy, sometimes with a Capital E. Some I might
expect such as the account of Rama allowing the golden light to glow and
glow and glow in the room, the Buddha meditation in the Hawaiian
restaurant...,

Ah, yes...good moments, both of them. The latter story was written at
the time, which possibly makes a difference. Fred Lenz was, after all,
an English professor before he became a guru/cult figure, and so he
highly recommended that everyone keep a Journal, and when they had
extraordinary experiences, to write them down *as soon as possible*
after they'd happened. His theory was -- and I fully believe it is true,
based on personal experience -- that many of these experiences happen in
alternate realities that you can't easily access or even remember when
you're back in your normal, everyday reality. He felt -- and again I
agree -- that if you have some whiz-bang experience that if you don't
write it down in the first day or so after it happens, much or most of
the experience will be lost to you forever. When trying to go back and
recapture it, you'll end up adding too much fiction and moodmaking into
the writing, because you won't be able to remember how it *felt*. You
can't recapture the state of attention you were in at the time because
you are no longer in it.

On the other hand, his theory was that if you *do* write it down at the
time, you can then go back later and polish the writing (as I did with
some of the stories), but more important, the writing now serves as kind
of a doorway or portal back to the state of attention you experienced
while the original events were going on. He called this the second
level of writing, creating a catalyst for yourself such that, when you
read it again in the future, it takes you back to the mindset of the
original experience and allows you to experience it again. That
certainly happened for me when writing some of the stories, and still
happens sometimes when I go back and read some of them.

Rama's third level of writing is something I'm not sure I've ever
achieved, but I still aspire to it. That's when you manage to capture
enough of the energy and mindset of an extraordinary experience that
*someone else* can get a hit on it, and feel a little of the original
energy and wonder. I've certainly experienced that when reading some of
my favorite authors.

 ...but some of the strongest Energy was when I read the chapter
Style about  how you live your life when no one else is watching (and
how you decorate a house) - Maybe I am just wanting to feel a lot so I
am doing so at odd moments.

Whatever. A lot of these stories were written -- like my Paris cafe
stories -- sitting down at a cafe in Santa Fe with essentially a blank
mind and a blank canvas, and just *writing*, to see what came out. At
the time of that story, I was just having SO much fun decorating my
house that I guess that's what came out. :-)

 Anyhow I am gonna take a break for the night and see what tomorrow
brings - thanks again for sharing this link - I'm getting a lot out of
it.

No problem, and I hope it answers some of your questions. He was
definitely an odd guy, clearly the oddest I've ever met in this
lifetime. Much of my experience studying with him was wonderful, and
mainly because -- in contrast to the TMO where I'd spent the previous
few years -- so much of it was FUN. We went to movies together; we went
to Disneyland together; we went to Hawaii and Paris and Amsterdam
together. We'd dress up in tuxes and evening dresses and have lavish
dinners at The Pierre in NY or at Windows On The World. Nothing about
the trip was reclusive or aspiring to head off someday and live in a
cave. It was very much a Tantric trip -- not only about living in the
world, but about living in the world *well*, and with some style.

When it began to be less fun, I wound up having to make some decisions
about whether to bail on it or not, and wound up bailing. Many friends
stuck it out for a couple of more years, but then Rama wound up bailing
on *them*, kinda leaving them floundering for some time. I consider
myself fortunate that I had made my own decision to leave before then,
and thus didn't have to deal with that sudden absence.

Anyway, to quote the Grateful Dead, it was a long, strange trip, and
even though I'm not part of it any more, I'm glad I wrote some of it
down. Heck, if I hadn't, by now I'd be half convinced that I imagined it
all. :-)

But I didn't.

 
 On Thu, 1/16/14, TurquoiseB turquoiseb@... wrote:

  Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 7:47 PM

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson
  wrote

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Michael Jackson
Rama's third level of writing is something I'm not sure I've ever achieved, 
but I still aspire to it. That's when you manage to capture enough of the 
energy and mindset of an extraordinary experience that *someone else* can get a 
hit on it, and feel a little of the original energy and wonder.

If my experience is any indication, you have achieved that third level for sure.

On Fri, 1/17/14, TurquoiseB turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 8:09 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson 
 wrote:
 
  I am still reading - its a pretty extraordinary book,
 to me anyway. You are quite the writer and should I ever be
 able to write to that level, I will be a happy man.
  
  I am still feeling energy, sometimes with a Capital
 E. Some I might expect such as the account of
 Rama allowing the golden light to glow and glow and glow in
 the room, the Buddha meditation in the Hawaiian
 restaurant...,
 
 Ah, yes...good moments, both of
 them. The latter story was written at the time, which
 possibly makes a difference. Fred Lenz was, after all, an
 English professor before he became a guru/cult figure, and
 so he highly recommended that everyone keep a Journal, and
 when they had extraordinary experiences, to write them down
 *as soon as possible* after they'd happened. His theory
 was -- and I fully believe it is true, based on personal
 experience -- that many of these experiences happen in
 alternate realities that you can't easily access or even
 remember when you're back in your normal,
 everyday reality. He felt -- and again I agree -- that if
 you have some whiz-bang experience that if you don't
 write it down in the first day or so after it happens, much
 or most of the experience will be lost to you forever. When
 trying to go back and recapture it, you'll
 end up adding too much fiction and moodmaking into the
 writing, because you won't be able to remember how it
 *felt*. You can't recapture the state of
 attention you were in at the time because you are no longer
 in it.
 
 On the other hand, his theory was that if you *do* write it
 down at the time, you can then go back later and
 polish the writing (as I did with some of the
 stories), but more important, the writing now serves as kind
 of a doorway or portal back to the state of
 attention you experienced while the original events were
 going on. He called this the second level of
 writing, creating a catalyst for yourself such that,
 when you read it again in the future, it takes you
 back to the mindset of the original experience and
 allows you to experience it again. That certainly happened
 for me when writing some of the stories, and still happens
 sometimes when I go back and read some of them. 
 
 Rama's third level of writing is something
 I'm not sure I've ever achieved, but I still aspire
 to it. That's when you manage to capture enough of the
 energy and mindset of an extraordinary experience that
 *someone else* can get a hit on it, and feel a little of the
 original energy and wonder. I've certainly experienced
 that when reading some of my favorite
 authors.
 
  ...but some of the strongest Energy was when I read the
 chapter Style about  how you live your life when
 no one else is watching (and how you decorate a house) -
 Maybe I am just wanting to feel a lot so I am doing so at
 odd moments.
 
 Whatever. A lot of these stories
 were written -- like my Paris cafe stories -- sitting down
 at a cafe in Santa Fe with essentially a blank mind and a
 blank canvas, and just *writing*, to see what came out. At
 the time of that story, I was just having SO much fun
 decorating my house that I guess that's what came out.
 :-)
 
  Anyhow I am gonna take a break for the night and see
 what tomorrow brings - thanks again for sharing this link -
 I'm getting a lot out of it.
 
 No problem, and I hope it
 answers some of your questions. He was definitely an odd
 guy, clearly the oddest I've ever met in this lifetime.
 Much of my experience studying with him was wonderful, and
 mainly because -- in contrast to the TMO where I'd spent
 the previous few years -- so much of it was FUN. We went to
 movies together; we went to Disneyland together; we went to
 Hawaii and Paris and Amsterdam together. We'd dress up
 in tuxes and evening dresses and have lavish dinners at The
 Pierre in NY or at Windows On The World. Nothing about the
 trip was reclusive or aspiring to head off
 someday and live in a cave. It was very much a Tantric trip
 -- not only about living in the world, but about living in
 the world *well*, and with some style. 
 
 When it began to be less fun, I wound up having to make some
 decisions about whether to bail on it or not, and wound up
 bailing. Many friends stuck it out

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Richard Williams
Well, I thought fer sure you'd say that Rama was a con man and a fake and
had sexual relations with his students, like you said about MMY. Maybe
you've changed your mind about that. It looks like you've changed your mind
about the bun-hopping-levitation too.

From what I've read, Rama left several million dollars, most of that given
to him by his students to support his extravagant lifestyle. Barry probably
gave Rama over $10,000 to be able to go see a movie with Rama. So, I wonder
what that has taught Barry about giving money to people for spiritual
instruction. What happened to all the money?

So, how much does it cost to fly Rama over to Paris and put him up in a
four-star hotel for a few days? Barry's part of the donation probably cost
him close to $5,000. That's a lot of money to just spend just to be able be
with your teacher at Disneyland. Go figure.


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.comwrote:



 I changed my day so I could delve into what you had written - I have gone
 through a lot of it and it answers most of my questions. Mainly I wanted to
 know if you thought Rama was legit in the beginning and if you witnessed
 any of the power or sidhi demonstrations he did. Obviously yes to both.

 I had a hard time reading much of it because I began to feel a great deal
 of energy as soon as I started reading, I mean LOTS of energy. So I am
 taking the reading in stages. Read a little. Sweep my floors a little,
 clean the bathrooms, come down off the energy a little and read a little
 more.

 Two minor questions I have are:

 Did you know this guy? Mark Laxer

 Have you ever read his book Take Me for a Ride: Coming of Age in a
 Destructive Cult Paperback?

 If so is it accurate?

 That's all - back to the energy now and thanks for talking and thanks for
 writing about Rama and all the other things you wrote about.
 
 On Thu, 1/16/14, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 4:02 PM



























 Thanks Barry - I am gonna read what you have
 written and if I have any questions after that, I'll
 send 'em.



 Got a busy day today, but I intend to start reading it later
 tonight.

 

 On Thu, 1/16/14, TurquoiseB turquoi...@yahoo.com
 wrote:



 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com

 Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 8:21 AM























































 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson

 wrote:

 

  I would like to have a conversation with you about
 your

 time with Rama if you are willing. I am more than happy to

 do it privately if you like cause I know some on here are

 going to revile you no matter what you say. So can we
 talk?



 I don't mind, as long as you

 understand a few things at the outset. First, I rarely
 even

 think about the dude any more, except when something

 triggers a memory, as something you said in one of your

 posts did yesterday. Second, I don't waste my time

 either condemning or defending him -- he was what he was,

 and I don't much care what anyone thinks about him.



 Third, however, and as you say, if we do it here you can

 expect a lot of piling on from stalkers here.

 They'll do it for various reasons. Some will start

 piling on when they hear tales of thousands of his
 students

 witnessing siddhis they've *still* only read about,

 after 30 years of pursuing them and after paying thousands

 of dollars to supposedly learn them. Some will pile on

 because they don't like me, and they mistakenly
 believe

 that if they diss a former teacher I still have some

 positive feelings about, it'll push my hot buttons the

 same way me saying things about MMY pushes theirs, and
 thus

 I'll react and get into one of the Robin-like

 confrontations with them they so hope for.



 That's not gonna happen, so we might as well do it
 here.

 :-) But I'll warn you ahead of time that my attention

 span for things Rama-related is pretty damned

 short these days, so if you have questions, make the first

 few count, because at some point I'll get

 tired of the whole thing and bail. :-)



 That said, ask anything you want, and I'll do my best
 to

 answer your questions as honestly as I wrote Road
 Trip

 Mind. That would be a good place to start if you are

 actually curious about the dude. I wrote it to get the

 Rama-monkey off my back, and it worked. I don't
 actually

 have a great deal more to say about the guy than I said in

 that book.



 http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/index.html
















































































  



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread dhamiltony2k5
Turq,
 
 
 How did it go in the Rama group in the longer Aftermath of Rama doing himself 
in? Proly lots of immediate shock and trauma but there was existent a form of 
organization before he died and is there any vestige of a group afterward? 
Before he died there were some who spoke for the group of Rama as to his 
teachings and and running the group. Did any of them come forward afterward 
with the teachings or an organization in some form? Succession was not planned 
for or necessarily indicated? Anybody go forward with it anyway in some form? 
Where did any of the key spiritual insiders tend to end up? Gravitate to be 
with whom? How did it transpire for the followers and some of the tru-believers 
in particular?   I am just wondering by comparison.
 
 -Buck  


[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:

 Turq,

  How did it go in the Rama group in the longer Aftermath of Rama doing
himself in?

I honestly don't know, except for the few people I remained in contact
with, primarily over the Internet. For some of them, even though I knew
they shared my doubts about the whole thing, the Don't you dare say
anything negative about a previous spiritual teacher or Don't say
anything bad about somebody who is...uh...dead thang kicked in, and
they just swung back into line parroting the dogma. For some it seemed
to be truly devastating, in the same way that MMY's death probably was
for TBs who had wrapped their whole lives around him. For others, it
seemed to be an event that set them free, and enabled them to look
further for their satisfactions in life, be they material or spiritual.
Before he died, they were pretty much tied by the cult mindset into
believing that he was the only possible source of such satisfactions.

In other words, different strokes for different folks.

 Proly lots of immediate shock and trauma but there was existent a form
of organization before he died and is there any vestige of a group
afterward?

As far as I can tell, being as far away from it as I am, there is. There
are a few hardcore TBs who still like to pretend that they are Rama's
tradition, even though he clearly didn't intend to leave one. I have
never had anything to do with them, other than to attend one event they
staged in Phoenix that I wrote about in the last story of Road Trip
Mind. It was fun, but not the kind of fun I felt like hanging around.

 Before he died there were some who spoke for the group of Rama as to
his teachings and and running the group. Did any of them come forward
afterward with the teachings or an organization in some form? Succession
was not planned for or necessarily indicated? Anybody go forward with it
anyway in some form? Where did any of the key spiritual insiders tend to
end up? Gravitate to be with whom? How did it transpire for the
followers and some of the tru-believers in particular?   I am just
wondering by comparison.

All good questions. I'll answer as best I can, *not* being part of it
all, and thus having picked up only what I've picked up from afar, over
the Net.

He left *NO* successors. He left *NO* successor organization, except a
foundation to distribute the wealth he had accumulated to further the
study of what he called American Buddhism. They have -- to their
credit -- spread this money around to a number of well-meaning and in
many cases well-acting organizations to help do just that.

There are a few people who have set up shop as spiritual teacher
furthering his tradition. I know them all, and recommend none of them. I
went out of my way to not be placed into the position of speaking for
Rama, and I personally think his tradition would be better served if
more had done so.

Some -- who IMO had become dependent on always having a guru or teacher
available to lead them -- felt his absence strongly, and flocked to
other teachers. Not surprisingly, some flocked to people I considered
charlatans, because IMO *their* charlatan energy was similar to Rama's
(Sathya Sai Baba and Adi Da, for example). Some were IMO wiser, and went
for more traditional Tibetan teachers who I occasionally met and
respected, just never felt any pull to study with. Me, I just went my
own Way.

In other words, it probably went similarly to what happened after MMY
kicked the bucket, except that he didn't kick the bucket out from
underneath himself. :-)

It's always *amazing* to me to see how many of the ones who tried to
continue on teaching in Rama's name don't even *mention* his suicide
on their websites, or if they do, use the hideous euphemism his
Mahasamadhi.

Give me a fuckin' break. Guy croaked himself.

I'm *sure* he felt he had reasons for doing so. Anyone with as
established a history of NPD as Rama had could have easily come up with
such reasons. But still, he had a choice, and in my opinion he made a
bad one, heavily influenced by a drug called Valium that he foolishly
tried to kick his dependence on cold turkey, even though it says
right on the label never to do this, *because of the risk of suicide*.

At this point, I really am not the person you should ask as to whether
there is much of a lingering tradition in his name. I'm sure there is,
but I'm SO not part of it. Even if I wanted to be, I doubt I'd be
allowed to be, because Road Trip Mind was not exactly what those who run
such a tradition consider the party line. I was -- and am still --
considered somewhat of a pariah and an apostate for having written it
the way that I did. Go figure. All I was trying to do was be honest.




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Michael Jackson
 It looks like you've changed your mind about the bun-hopping-levitation too.

I have no idea why you would say that. I thought when I was doing them that the 
sutras were a mildly interesting practice, but not worth the time for the 
experiences I was having. I never one of those who thought TM and TMSP was 
something good to do even if you were not having pleasant experiences or at 
least useful experiences.

levitation sutra was sometimes fun and exhilarating to practice and if I had 
had any sense I would have just done TM and gone straight into levitation 
sutra, but I was snookered into believing M was telling us the truth when he 
said you have to do all the OTHER sutras before you do the flying sutra.

I think the amount of time is not worth the pay off (which is very little IMO) 
with TMSP and I have never believed group TMSP will create world peace or even 
lower crime rate. Ask all the people who have been raped, robbed or killed in 
Jefferson County there in Iowa.

As to Barry's spending lots of money, if he had it and he enjoyed what he spent 
it on, why not? Hell, you can lay down 5K on a single yagya with the TMO with 
not nearly so much fun result as going to Disney.

On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: Richard J. Williams FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014,
   
   

 
 From what I've read, Rama left several
 million dollars, most of that given to him by his students
 to support his extravagant lifestyle. Barry probably gave
 Rama over $10,000 to be able to go see a movie with Rama.
 So, I wonder what that has taught Barry about giving money
 to people for spiritual instruction. What happened to all
 the money?
 
 So, how much does it cost to fly Rama over to
 Paris and put him up in a four-star hotel for a few days?
 Barry's part of the donation probably cost him close to
 $5,000. That's a lot of money to just spend just to be
 able be with your teacher at Disneyland. Go figure.
 
 
 On Thu, Jan 16, 2014
 at 12:40 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   I changed my day so I could delve into what you had
 written - I have gone through a lot of it and it answers
 most of my questions. Mainly I wanted to know if you thought
 Rama was legit in the beginning and if you witnessed any of
 the power or sidhi demonstrations he did. Obviously yes to
 both.
 
 
 
 
 I had a hard time reading much of it because I began to feel
 a great deal of energy as soon as I started reading, I mean
 LOTS of energy. So I am taking the reading in stages. Read a
 little. Sweep my floors a little, clean the bathrooms, come
 down off the energy a little and read a little more. 
 
 
 
 
 Two minor questions I have are:
 
 
 
 Did you know this guy? Mark Laxer
 
 
 
 Have you ever read his book Take Me for a Ride: Coming of
 Age in a Destructive Cult Paperback?
 
 
 
 If so is it accurate?
 
 
 
 That's all - back to the energy now and thanks for
 talking and thanks for writing about Rama and all the other
 things you wrote about.
 
 
 
 On Thu, 1/16/14, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible
 thing.
 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
  Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 4:02 PM
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 

 
Thanks Barry - I am gonna read what you have
 
  written and if I have any questions after that, I'll
 
  send 'em. 
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  Got a busy day today, but I intend to start reading it
 later
 
  tonight.
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  On Thu, 1/16/14, TurquoiseB turquoi...@yahoo.com
 
  wrote:
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible
 thing.
 
  
 
   To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
  
 
   Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 8:21 AM
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
    
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
 
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
  
 
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 Michael Jackson 
 
  
 
   wrote:
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
I would like to have a conversation with you about
 
  your
 
  
 
   time with Rama if you are willing. I am more than happy
 to
 
  
 
   do it privately if you like cause I know some on here are
 
  
 
   going to revile you no matter what you say. So can we
 
  talk?
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
   I don't mind, as long as you
 
  
 
   understand a few things at the outset. First, I rarely
 
  even

[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson  wrote:

 Bottom line for me is that all this has taught me the definition of
enlightenment M gave out is flawed if not downright incorrect, and yes
that includes the source material of the vedas which I feel was the
pontifications of a bunch of guys roaming around in the forest who said
Huh! This is my reality so I am going to tell everyone it THEIR reality
too, and if they don't get on board with it, they are missing the boat.

 I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we
can all have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or
enlightened perception, including all the celestial perception stuff is
just another experience among a plethora of experiences.

 I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona
that is real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort of like the
historical Buddha was supposed to have been. But most of those who have
higher states of consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences
into egoic focus that includes often enough the idea that since
everything is a play of awareness, it doesn't make a tinker's damn what
they do with and to people, cuz its just all consciousness playing
around. No rules, no standard of conduct, these are the ones like
Muktananda, Maharishi and Rama who go off the deep end of ego and screw
things up.

Absofuckinglutely.





Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Michael Jackson
Not having known or having had any experience with Rama, I can only go by his 
recorded history - he certainly was known to have acted out - he apparently 
abused and misused his position as teacher, he was a serial womanizer, and 
maybe took people to the cleaners - although some seemed to feel that their 
money was well spent with him, regardless of his enormities.

I acknowledge his shortcomings, and the fact that some like Barry had some 
powerful experiences with him. I am having some degree of energy experience 
from reading Barry's account.

I view Amma as a huckster, but I don't deny people have pleasant and powerful 
experiences with her.

I view M as a huckster, but the one time I saw him in person, I had what stands 
today as one of the most powerful, amazing experiences of energy of my life.

Same with other teachers like Muktananda - they could spark energy in other 
people, sometimes big time Energy, but they were or are ego-centered and 
screwed up in a lot of ways that lead to the people around them getting screwed 
in different ways. Chuck Anderson who was also known as Master Teacher of the 
Endeavor Academy falls into that category. 

Bottom line for me is that all this has taught me the definition of 
enlightenment M gave out is flawed if not downright incorrect, and yes that 
includes the source material of the vedas which I feel was the pontifications 
of a bunch of guys roaming around in the forest who said Huh! This is my 
reality so I am going to tell everyone it THEIR reality too, and if they don't 
get on board with it, they are missing the boat.

I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we can all 
have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or enlightened perception, 
including all the celestial perception stuff is just another experience among a 
plethora of experiences.

I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona that is 
real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort of like the historical 
Buddha was supposed to have been. But most of those who have higher states of 
consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences into egoic focus that 
includes often enough the idea that since everything is a play of awareness, it 
doesn't make a tinker's damn what they do with and to people, cuz its just all 
consciousness playing around. No rules, no standard of conduct, these are the 
ones like Muktananda, Maharishi and Rama who go off the deep end of ego and 
screw things up.

I acknowledge the power, the depth of silence and vibrations of the infinite 
that course through these people and I acknowledge the screwed up behavior.

For whatever reason there was a vibration of infinite energy that Rama tapped 
into and was an exponent of that communicated itself to Barry and I get to feel 
it through Barry's writing. I am enjoying it and we'll see where it leads, if 
anywhere. 

I would kinda like to think that having such an experience was what FFL was 
really created for to begin with.

And that is what I think of that. 

On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: Richard J. Williams FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 1:55 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Well, I thought fer sure
 you'd say that Rama was a con man and a fake and had
 sexual relations with his students, like you said about MMY.
 Maybe you've changed your mind about that. It looks like
 you've changed your mind about the
 bun-hopping-levitation too. 
 
 From what I've read, Rama left several
 million dollars, most of that given to him by his students
 to support his extravagant lifestyle. Barry probably gave
 Rama over $10,000 to be able to go see a movie with Rama.
 So, I wonder what that has taught Barry about giving money
 to people for spiritual instruction. What happened to all
 the money?
 
 So, how much does it cost to fly Rama over to
 Paris and put him up in a four-star hotel for a few days?
 Barry's part of the donation probably cost him close to
 $5,000. That's a lot of money to just spend just to be
 able be with your teacher at Disneyland. Go figure.
 
 
 On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at
 12:40 PM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   I changed my day so I could delve into what you had
 written - I have gone through a lot of it and it answers
 most of my questions. Mainly I wanted to know if you thought
 Rama was legit in the beginning and if you witnessed any of
 the power or sidhi demonstrations he did. Obviously yes to
 both.
 
 
 
 
 I had a hard time reading much of it because I began to feel
 a great deal of energy as soon as I started reading, I mean
 LOTS of energy. So I am taking the reading in stages. Read a
 little. Sweep my floors a little, clean

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread authfriend
 to feel 
it through Barry's writing. I am enjoying it and we'll see where it leads, if 
anywhere. 
 
 I would kinda like to think that having such an experience was what FFL was 
really created for to begin with.
 
 And that is what I think of that. 
 
 On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard Williams punditster@... mailto:punditster@... wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: Richard J. Williams FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 1:55 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Well, I thought fer sure
 you'd say that Rama was a con man and a fake and had
 sexual relations with his students, like you said about MMY.
 Maybe you've changed your mind about that. It looks like
 you've changed your mind about the
 bun-hopping-levitation too. 
 
 From what I've read, Rama left several
 million dollars, most of that given to him by his students
 to support his extravagant lifestyle. Barry probably gave
 Rama over $10,000 to be able to go see a movie with Rama.
 So, I wonder what that has taught Barry about giving money
 to people for spiritual instruction. What happened to all
 the money?
 
 So, how much does it cost to fly Rama over to
 Paris and put him up in a four-star hotel for a few days?
 Barry's part of the donation probably cost him close to
 $5,000. That's a lot of money to just spend just to be
 able be with your teacher at Disneyland. Go figure.
 
 
 On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at
 12:40 PM, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I changed my day so I could delve into what you had
 written - I have gone through a lot of it and it answers
 most of my questions. Mainly I wanted to know if you thought
 Rama was legit in the beginning and if you witnessed any of
 the power or sidhi demonstrations he did. Obviously yes to
 both.
 
 
 
 
 I had a hard time reading much of it because I began to feel
 a great deal of energy as soon as I started reading, I mean
 LOTS of energy. So I am taking the reading in stages. Read a
 little. Sweep my floors a little, clean the bathrooms, come
 down off the energy a little and read a little more. 
 
 
 
 
 Two minor questions I have are:
 
 
 
 Did you know this guy? Mark Laxer
 
 
 
 Have you ever read his book Take Me for a Ride: Coming of
 Age in a Destructive Cult Paperback?
 
 
 
 If so is it accurate?
 
 
 
 That's all - back to the energy now and thanks for
 talking and thanks for writing about Rama and all the other
 things you wrote about.
 
 
 
 On Thu, 1/16/14, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... mailto:mjackson74@...
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible
 thing.
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 4:02 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Thanks Barry - I am gonna read what you have
 
 written and if I have any questions after that, I'll
 
 send 'em. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Got a busy day today, but I intend to start reading it
 later
 
 tonight.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On Thu, 1/16/14, TurquoiseB turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@...
 
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible
 thing.
 
 
 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
 
 
 Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 8:21 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
 Michael Jackson 
 
 
 
 wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  I would like to have a conversation with you about
 
 your
 
 
 
 time with Rama if you are willing. I am more than happy
 to
 
 
 
 do it privately if you like cause I know some on here are
 
 
 
 going to revile you no matter what you say. So can we
 
 talk?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 I don't mind, as long as you
 
 
 
 understand a few things at the outset. First, I rarely
 
 even
 
 
 
 think about the dude any more, except when something
 
 
 
 triggers a memory, as something you said in one of your
 
 
 
 posts did yesterday. Second, I don't waste my time
 
 
 
 either condemning or defending him -- he was what he was,
 
 
 
 and I don't much care what anyone thinks about him. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Third, however, and as you say, if we do it here you can
 
 
 
 expect a lot of piling on from stalkers here.
 
 
 
 They'll do it for various reasons. Some will start
 
 
 
 piling on when they hear tales of thousands of his
 
 students
 
 
 
 witnessing siddhis they've *still* only read about,
 
 
 
 after 30 years of pursuing them and after

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread awoelflebater
Michael wrote:
 

 I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we can all 
have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or enlightened perception, 
including all the celestial perception stuff is just another experience among a 
plethora of experiences.
 

 I agree. I also have a hard time finding greater or lesser validity of any 
particular experience over another. An experience experienced is just that - it 
is reality for that experiencer. And as we all know experience is ultimately 
subjective and particular to each person. How to understand or interpret, let 
alone judge or put some value on someone else's reality/experience is, for me, 
an exercise in futility. I do, however, believe in personal growth and the 
reality of the possibility for the expansion of awareness and the development 
of sensibility in different human beings in different phases of their life or 
lives.

I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona that is 
real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort of like the historical 
Buddha was supposed to have been. But most of those who have higher states of 
consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences into egoic focus that 
includes often enough the idea that since everything is a play of awareness, it 
doesn't make a tinker's damn what they do with and to people, cuz its just all 
consciousness playing around. No rules, no standard of conduct, these are the 
ones like Muktananda, Maharishi and Rama who go off the deep end of ego and 
screw things up.

 

 I also think that many people who are under the assumption that a sort of 
higher state of consciousness can or does exist in gurus or teachers and 
are therefore responsible for giving these people free licence to do as they 
please and to support them in this, often to the detriment of everyone 
involved. I have yet to see anyone free of ego and I don't think of ego as 
something terrible. Like many characteristics, it can become distorted, 
unbalanced but in and of itself ego is neither good or bad. Just as ambition or 
empathy or passion is not inherently, ultimately good or bad. How it manifests 
can make the difference between something becoming positive, negative or simply 
remaining benign. It's complex, of course.
 

 I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to allow certain individuals 
to spiral out of control. When you put someone on some sort of pedestal it can 
really screw them up, whether they are holy men or holy women or the Justin 
Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of the world. Feed the ego like you would force feed a 
goose to fatten up the liver and sooner or later you create something that is 
unwell.
 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Richard J. Williams

Michael Jackson wrote:

 Bottom line for me is that all this has taught me the definition
 of enlightenment M gave out is flawed if not downright incorrect,
 and yes that includes the source material of the vedas which I
 feel was the pontifications of a bunch of guys roaming around in
 the forest who said Huh! This is my reality so I am going to tell
 everyone it THEIR reality too, and if they don't get on board with
 it, they are missing the boat.

Well, it's settled then - the Hindus and the Tibetans were all 
incorrect. MMY and the Rama guy were charlatans and frauds. But what 
does this tell us about their followers - the ones that enabled them, 
worked for them, and spread the snake-oils sales pitch for years and 
years? It just doesn't make any sense that you two could be that wrong 
for so long, and be so certain about everything now. Go figure.


On 1/17/2014 9:34 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:


Not having known or having had any experience with Rama, I can only go 
by his recorded history - he certainly was known to have acted out - 
he apparently abused and misused his position as teacher, he was a 
serial womanizer, and maybe took people to the cleaners - although 
some seemed to feel that their money was well spent with him, 
regardless of his enormities.


I acknowledge his shortcomings, and the fact that some like Barry had 
some powerful experiences with him. I am having some degree of energy 
experience from reading Barry's account.


I view Amma as a huckster, but I don't deny people have pleasant and 
powerful experiences with her.


I view M as a huckster, but the one time I saw him in person, I had 
what stands today as one of the most powerful, amazing experiences of 
energy of my life.


Same with other teachers like Muktananda - they could spark energy in 
other people, sometimes big time Energy, but they were or are 
ego-centered and screwed up in a lot of ways that lead to the people 
around them getting screwed in different ways. Chuck Anderson who was 
also known as Master Teacher of the Endeavor Academy falls into that 
category.


Bottom line for me is that all this has taught me the definition of 
enlightenment M gave out is flawed if not downright incorrect, and yes 
that includes the source material of the vedas which I feel was the 
pontifications of a bunch of guys roaming around in the forest who 
said Huh! This is my reality so I am going to tell everyone it THEIR 
reality too, and if they don't get on board with it, they are missing 
the boat.


I feel the Universe has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we 
can all have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or 
enlightened perception, including all the celestial perception stuff 
is just another experience among a plethora of experiences.


I think that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona 
that is real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort of like 
the historical Buddha was supposed to have been. But most of those who 
have higher states of consciousness cycle from those kinds of 
experiences into egoic focus that includes often enough the idea that 
since everything is a play of awareness, it doesn't make a tinker's 
damn what they do with and to people, cuz its just all consciousness 
playing around. No rules, no standard of conduct, these are the ones 
like Muktananda, Maharishi and Rama who go off the deep end of ego and 
screw things up.


I acknowledge the power, the depth of silence and vibrations of the 
infinite that course through these people and I acknowledge the 
screwed up behavior.


For whatever reason there was a vibration of infinite energy that Rama 
tapped into and was an exponent of that communicated itself to Barry 
and I get to feel it through Barry's writing. I am enjoying it and 
we'll see where it leads, if anywhere.


I would kinda like to think that having such an experience was what 
FFL was really created for to begin with.


And that is what I think of that.

On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
To: Richard J. Williams FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 1:55 PM

Well, I thought fer sure
you'd say that Rama was a con man and a fake and had
sexual relations with his students, like you said about MMY.
Maybe you've changed your mind about that. It looks like
you've changed your mind about the
bun-hopping-levitation too.

From what I've read, Rama left several
million dollars, most of that given to him by his students
to support his extravagant lifestyle. Barry probably gave
Rama over $10,000 to be able to go see a movie with Rama.
So, I wonder what that has taught Barry about giving money
to people for spiritual instruction. What happened to all
the money?

So, how much does it cost to fly Rama over to
Paris and put him up in a four-star hotel for a few days?
Barry's part of the donation

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Richard J. Williams
On 1/17/2014 9:46 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
 It looks like you've changed your mind about the 
 bun-hopping-levitation too.

 I have no idea why you would say that. 
 
Well, it's settled then - humans can fly and levitate; we have several 
eye-witnesses on the forum who can testify to this. So, I wonder why 
Barry was making fun of MMY and the bun-hopping? Go figure.


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Richard J. Williams
On 1/17/2014 9:34 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:

 I view Amma as a huckster, but I don't deny people have pleasant and 
 powerful experiences with her.

 I view M as a huckster, but the one time I saw him in person, I had 
 what stands today as one of the most powerful, amazing experiences of 
 energy of my life.
 
So, it's settled then - Amma and MMY are both hucksters that cause 
amazing experiences of energy in people's lives.


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Michael Jackson
I must say I agree with everything you said.

On Fri, 1/17/14, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 4:51 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Michael wrote:
 I feel the Universe
 has nearly infinite if not infinite experiences we can all
 have, and the so-called higher states of awareness or
 enlightened perception, including all the celestial
 perception stuff is just another experience among a plethora
 of experiences.
 I agree. I also have a hard
 time finding greater or lesser validity of any particular
 experience over another. An experience experienced is just
 that - it is reality for that experiencer. And as we all
 know experience is ultimately subjective and particular to
 each person. How to understand or interpret, let alone judge
 or put some value on someone else's reality/experience
 is, for me, an exercise in futility. I do, however, believe
 in personal growth and the reality of the possibility for
 the expansion of awareness and the development of
 sensibility in different human beings in different phases of
 their life or lives.
 
 I think
 that if one chooses one can create an experience, a persona
 that is real moral, always sativcc, always unperturbed, sort
 of like the historical Buddha was supposed to have been. But
 most of those who have higher states of
 consciousness cycle from those kinds of experiences
 into egoic focus that includes often enough the idea that
 since everything is a play of awareness, it doesn't make
 a tinker's damn what they do with and to people, cuz its
 just all consciousness playing around. No rules, no standard
 of conduct, these are the ones like Muktananda, Maharishi
 and Rama who go off the deep end of ego and screw things
 up.
 
 I also think that many
 people who are under the assumption that a sort of higher
 state of consciousness can or does exist in
 gurus or teachers and are therefore
 responsible for giving these people free licence to do as
 they please and to support them in this, often to the
 detriment of everyone involved. I have yet to see anyone
 free of ego and I don't think of ego as something
 terrible. Like many characteristics, it can become
 distorted, unbalanced but in and of itself ego is neither
 good or bad. Just as ambition or empathy or passion is not
 inherently, ultimately good or bad. How it manifests can
 make the difference between something becoming positive,
 negative or simply remaining benign. It's complex, of
 course.
 I guess my point here is that it takes enablers to
 allow certain individuals to spiral out of control. When you
 put someone on some sort of pedestal it can really screw
 them up, whether they are holy men or holy
 women or the Justin Biebers and Miley Cyrus' of
 the world. Feed the ego like you would force feed a goose to
 fatten up the liver and sooner or later you create something
 that is unwell.
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Michael Jackson
Oh, I see that you mean. As to my own belief, I made no comment on the reality 
of Lenz's levitation demonstration. I have done TMSP and it certainly doesn't 
qualify as flying in any way. I do think some folk have done it like maybe good 
old Saint Joseph of Cupertino and am willing to believe Rama may have done, as 
the Brits say. M never demonstrated cause he couldn't do it.

On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 6:05 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   On 1/17/2014 9:46 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
 
  It looks like you've changed your mind about
 the 
 
  bun-hopping-levitation too.
 
 
 
  I have no idea why you would say that. 
 
  
 
 Well, it's settled then - humans can fly and levitate;
 we have several 
 
 eye-witnesses on the forum who can testify to this. So, I
 wonder why 
 
 Barry was making fun of MMY and the bun-hopping? Go figure.
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread Michael Jackson
yep, it can happen. Same with Chuck Anderson

On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard J. Williams pundits...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 6:13 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   On 1/17/2014 9:34 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
 
 
 
  I view Amma as a huckster, but I don't deny people
 have pleasant and 
 
  powerful experiences with her.
 
 
 
  I view M as a huckster, but the one time I saw him in
 person, I had 
 
  what stands today as one of the most powerful, amazing
 experiences of 
 
  energy of my life.
 
  
 
 So, it's settled then - Amma and MMY are both hucksters
 that cause 
 
 amazing experiences of energy in people's lives.
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread steve.sundur


 I was talking to a friend of mine the other night.  In the past he has 
recommended some interesting reading material.  He was telling me how impressed 
he was with The Course in Miracles.
 

 I know that material has been around for sometime.  I was wondering what 
others might have thought of it, if they happened to take a run at it?
 

 FWIW, from what he told me, it had an interesting genesis, but other than 
that, again, from what he told me, it sounded like basic new age boiler plate.
 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote:

 yep, it can happen. Same with Chuck Anderson
 
 On Fri, 1/17/14, Richard J. Williams punditster@... mailto:punditster@... 
wrote:
 
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Friday, January 17, 2014, 6:13 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 On 1/17/2014 9:34 AM, Michael Jackson wrote:
 
 
 
  I view Amma as a huckster, but I don't deny people
 have pleasant and 
 
  powerful experiences with her.
 
 
 
  I view M as a huckster, but the one time I saw him in
 person, I had 
 
  what stands today as one of the most powerful, amazing
 experiences of 
 
  energy of my life.
 
 
 
 So, it's settled then - Amma and MMY are both hucksters
 that cause 
 
 amazing experiences of energy in people's lives. 



[FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread s3raphita
Re Guy croaked himself.:

 

 Did Rama leave a suicide note? If not, it seems a funny way to commit suicide. 
Some reports claim he took 80–150 Valium. Valium comes in 2mg, 5mg and 10mg 
strengths. Assume (tops) he took 150 x 10mg = 1,500mg diazepam. People have 
taken 2,000mg of valium and had no bad effects after sleeping off the dose for 
48 hours. 
 Some have maintained that Rama took Phenobarbital (Abbie Hoffman's choice 
also) which sounds more likely if he had decided to check out - but don't US 
coroners run proper autopsies to determine exactly what poisons are in blood 
samples?
 Either way, the cause of death was drowning! Was that his intention all along? 
Or did he simply drown accidentally after going on a drug bender?
 



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread emptybill

 Michael sez:
  
 Robin's experience was that his actions were, as it were, dictated by cosmic 
forces, rather than that he could just do whatever he felt like. His experience 
was that he could not do other than what he did, even though at times there was 
some aspect of himself that didn't want to do what he was doing.
  
 So bottom line I don't buy Robin's assertion that he in essence was forced to 
behave in this way by these forces. That excuse goes back as long as we have 
had the idea of a Devil. 
  
 Emptybill replies:
  
 Robin never was interested in a classical Vedantic assessment of his so-called 
“enlightenment”. All of this, in spite of the fact that Shankara’s Vedanta was 
the proffered basis of Maharishi’s tradition. Such an assessment would have 
presented an opposite view about this whole “enlightenment meme”. I pointed 
this out to Robin a number of times but he wasn’t interested in hearing about 
it. Rather he just wanted to espouse his chosen narrative about how he was 
deluded by “cosmic entities” but was now free of them. More of the old - “I 
didn’t fail … I was fooled” as you also pointed out. 
  
 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 


Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread authfriend
emptybill, this is a seriously skewed version of Robin's story.
 

 Just for one thing, you write, Rather he just wanted to espouse his chosen 
narrative about how he was deluded by 'cosmic entities' but was now free of 
them. More of the old - 'I didn’t fail … I was fooled' as you also pointed out.
 

 As Michael pointed out wrongly, and now you've pointed out wrongly. As I 
said--and you'll find it throughout Robin's posts--he acknowledged his failure 
and took responsibility for it. As far as he was concerned, the negative 
entities took advantage of his character flaws--what he called his secret 
infirmities. He was vulnerable to being fooled because he was badly screwed 
up, in other words. And he's been tougher on himself than anybody else has 
concerning his behavior back then.
 

 Robin is by far the most complicated personality I've ever encountered. It 
really doesn't make sense to brush him off with simplistic conclusions, nor is 
it fair to him. I have no idea what the real story was metaphysically speaking, 
but he's always been clear about how he understood it. Certainly none of us is 
in a position to interpret his experience.
 

 It's one thing if you disbelieve in the existence of negative entities who are 
capable of messing with vulnerable people. That's perfectly reasonable. What's 
not right is to assign motivations to the person who has had the experience of 
having been messed with, or to claim they're lying about their experience. 
Experience is experience; it may or may not conform to reality, especially 
whatever the hell the metaphysical reality of enlightenment is.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill@... wrote:

 
 Michael sez:
  
 Robin's experience was that his actions were, as it were, dictated by cosmic 
forces, rather than that he could just do whatever he felt like. His experience 
was that he could not do other than what he did, even though at times there was 
some aspect of himself that didn't want to do what he was doing.
  
 So bottom line I don't buy Robin's assertion that he in essence was forced to 
behave in this way by these forces. That excuse goes back as long as we have 
had the idea of a Devil. 
  
 Emptybill replies:
  
 Robin never was interested in a classical Vedantic assessment of his so-called 
“enlightenment”. All of this, in spite of the fact that Shankara’s Vedanta was 
the proffered basis of Maharishi’s tradition. Such an assessment would have 
presented an opposite view about this whole “enlightenment meme”. I pointed 
this out to Robin a number of times but he wasn’t interested in hearing about 
it. Rather he just wanted to espouse his chosen narrative about how he was 
deluded by “cosmic entities” but was now free of them. More of the old - “I 
didn’t fail … I was fooled” as you also pointed out. 
  
 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread awoelflebater


 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote:

 emptybill, this is a seriously skewed version of Robin's story.
 

 Just for one thing, you write, Rather he just wanted to espouse his chosen 
narrative about how he was deluded by 'cosmic entities' but was now free of 
them. More of the old - 'I didn’t fail … I was fooled' as you also pointed out.
 

 As Michael pointed out wrongly, and now you've pointed out wrongly. As I 
said--and you'll find it throughout Robin's posts--he acknowledged his failure 
and took responsibility for it. As far as he was concerned, the negative 
entities took advantage of his character flaws--what he called his secret 
infirmities. He was vulnerable to being fooled because he was badly screwed 
up, in other words. And he's been tougher on himself than anybody else has 
concerning his behavior back then.
 

 Robin is by far the most complicated personality I've ever encountered. It 
really doesn't make sense to brush him off with simplistic conclusions, nor is 
it fair to him. I have no idea what the real story was metaphysically speaking, 
but he's always been clear about how he understood it. Certainly none of us is 
in a position to interpret his experience.
 

 It's one thing if you disbelieve in the existence of negative entities who are 
capable of messing with vulnerable people. That's perfectly reasonable. What's 
not right is to assign motivations to the person who has had the experience of 
having been messed with, or to claim they're lying about their experience. 
Experience is experience; it may or may not conform to reality, especially 
whatever the hell the metaphysical reality of enlightenment is.
 
Here is how I see it, in a nutshell. Empty can only interpret what Robin's 
experience was or wasn't based on his book learning or his own interpretation 
of book learning and teachers who 'told him so'. Robin had an experience and he 
has analyzed what that actually was, based on his time within the experience 
and his struggles and chronology getting 'free' of it. He alone truly knows 
what he has discovered in his long path toward separating himself from the 
influence of evil entities. Robin also knows himself to the degree to which he 
understands he is possessed of infirmities that would have allowed him to be 
vulnerable to that which is viewed as enlightenment by some. Robin was a 
victim of outside influences but his victimization was the result of inherent 
weaknesses within himself. Therefore, you can accuse Robin of conscious 
manipulation of others or being the author of dastardly deeds to the same 
degree that you can accuse a one-legged man of being too clumsy to dance the 
tango.
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emptybill@... wrote:

 
 Michael sez:
  
 Robin's experience was that his actions were, as it were, dictated by cosmic 
forces, rather than that he could just do whatever he felt like. His experience 
was that he could not do other than what he did, even though at times there was 
some aspect of himself that didn't want to do what he was doing.
  
 So bottom line I don't buy Robin's assertion that he in essence was forced to 
behave in this way by these forces. That excuse goes back as long as we have 
had the idea of a Devil. 
  
 Emptybill replies:
  
 Robin never was interested in a classical Vedantic assessment of his so-called 
“enlightenment”. All of this, in spite of the fact that Shankara’s Vedanta was 
the proffered basis of Maharishi’s tradition. Such an assessment would have 
presented an opposite view about this whole “enlightenment meme”. I pointed 
this out to Robin a number of times but he wasn’t interested in hearing about 
it. Rather he just wanted to espouse his chosen narrative about how he was 
deluded by “cosmic entities” but was now free of them. More of the old - “I 
didn’t fail … I was fooled” as you also pointed out. 
  
 This is what happens when experience itself becomes the object of sadhana 
(practice) rather than conformity with Reality. It is the same old theme and 
“gurus” just fool people when they cheat them out of the self-evaluations 
necessary for real sadhana. 






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread authfriend
Ann wrote:





 

 Here is how I see it, in a nutshell. Empty can only interpret what Robin's 
experience was or wasn't based on his book learning or his own interpretation 
of book learning and teachers who 'told him so'. Robin had an experience and he 
has analyzed what that actually was, based on his time within the experience 
and his struggles and chronology getting 'free' of it. He alone truly knows 
what he has discovered in his long path toward separating himself from the 
influence of evil entities. Robin also knows himself to the degree to which he 
understands he is possessed of infirmities that would have allowed him to be 
vulnerable to that which is viewed as enlightenment by some. Robin was a 
victim of outside influences but his victimization was the result of inherent 
weaknesses within himself. Therefore, you can accuse Robin of conscious 
manipulation of others or being the author of dastardly deeds to the same 
degree that you can accuse a one-legged man of being too clumsy to dance the 
tango.

 

 Perfectly said, thank you.




 





[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-17 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote:

 Re Guy croaked himself.:

  Did Rama leave a suicide note? If not, it seems a funny way to commit
suicide. Some reports claim he took 80â€150 Valium. Valium comes
in 2mg, 5mg and 10mg strengths. Assume (tops) he took 150 x 10mg =
1,500mg diazepam. People have taken 2,000mg of valium and had no bad
effects after sleeping off the dose for 48 hours.
  Some have maintained that Rama took Phenobarbital (Abbie Hoffman's
choice also) which sounds more likely if he had decided to check out -
but don't US coroners run proper autopsies to determine exactly what
poisons are in blood samples?
  Either way, the cause of death was drowning! Was that his intention
all along? Or did he simply drown accidentally after going on a drug
bender?

It was pretty clearly a suicide, according to the person who was with
him and attempted to join him. She survived, he didn't.




[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-16 Thread TurquoiseB
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson  wrote:

 I would like to have a conversation with you about your time with Rama
if you are willing. I am more than happy to do it privately if you like
cause I know some on here are going to revile you no matter what you
say. So can we talk?

I don't mind, as long as you understand a few things at the outset.
First, I rarely even think about the dude any more, except when
something triggers a memory, as something you said in one of your posts
did yesterday. Second, I don't waste my time either condemning or
defending him -- he was what he was, and I don't much care what anyone
thinks about him.

Third, however, and as you say, if we do it here you can expect a lot of
piling on from stalkers here. They'll do it for various reasons. Some
will start piling on when they hear tales of thousands of his students
witnessing siddhis they've *still* only read about, after 30 years of
pursuing them and after paying thousands of dollars to supposedly learn
them. Some will pile on because they don't like me, and they mistakenly
believe that if they diss a former teacher I still have some positive
feelings about, it'll push my hot buttons the same way me saying things
about MMY pushes theirs, and thus I'll react and get into one of the
Robin-like confrontations with them they so hope for.

That's not gonna happen, so we might as well do it here. :-) But I'll
warn you ahead of time that my attention span for things Rama-related
is pretty damned short these days, so if you have questions, make the
first few count, because at some point I'll get tired of the whole
thing and bail. :-)

That said, ask anything you want, and I'll do my best to answer your
questions as honestly as I wrote Road Trip Mind. That would be a good
place to start if you are actually curious about the dude. I wrote it to
get the Rama-monkey off my back, and it worked. I don't actually have a
great deal more to say about the guy than I said in that book.

http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/index.html
http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/index.html






Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-16 Thread Richard Williams
On 1/16/2014 2:21 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 it'll push my hot buttons the same way me saying things about MMY pushes
theirs,

So, you got your buttons pushed. Now you're throwing Rama under the bus
just like you threw MMY under the bus. You spent almost half of your adult
life studying with these two guys. If what you've been posting here for the
past ten years is any indication, almost all your own efforts on the
spiritual path were a total waste of time. I only mentioned Rama because
you were making fun of MMY all the time - I actually like the Rama guy - I
wish you could have turned out to think more them, but I guess you got
mixed up over there in France. Go figure.


On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 2:21 AM, TurquoiseB turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:



 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson wrote:
 
  I would like to have a conversation with you about your time with Rama
 if you are willing. I am more than happy to do it privately if you like
 cause I know some on here are going to revile you no matter what you say.
 So can we talk?








 *I don't mind, as long as you understand a few things at the outset.
 First, I rarely even think about the dude any more, except when something
 triggers a memory, as something you said in one of your posts did
 yesterday. Second, I don't waste my time either condemning or defending him
 -- he was what he was, and I don't much care what anyone thinks about him.
 Third, however, and as you say, if we do it here you can expect a lot of
 piling on from stalkers here. They'll do it for various reasons. Some
 will start piling on when they hear tales of thousands of his students
 witnessing siddhis they've *still* only read about, after 30 years of
 pursuing them and after paying thousands of dollars to supposedly learn
 them. Some will pile on because they don't like me, and they mistakenly
 believe that if they diss a former teacher I still have some positive
 feelings about, it'll push my hot buttons the same way me saying things
 about MMY pushes theirs, and thus I'll react and get into one of the
 Robin-like confrontations with them they so hope for. That's not gonna
 happen, so we might as well do it here. :-) But I'll warn you ahead of time
 that my attention span for things Rama-related is pretty damned short
 these days, so if you have questions, make the first few count, because
 at some point I'll get tired of the whole thing and bail. :-)That said, ask
 anything you want, and I'll do my best to answer your questions as honestly
 as I wrote Road Trip Mind. That would be a good place to start if you are
 actually curious about the dude. I wrote it to get the Rama-monkey off my
 back, and it worked. I don't actually have a great deal more to say about
 the guy than I said in that book. *
 *http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/index.html*
 http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/index.html




   



Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-16 Thread Michael Jackson
Thanks Barry - I am gonna read what you have written and if I have any 
questions after that, I'll send 'em. 

Got a busy day today, but I intend to start reading it later tonight.

On Thu, 1/16/14, TurquoiseB turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 8:21 AM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson 
 wrote:
 
  I would like to have a conversation with you about your
 time with Rama if you are willing. I am more than happy to
 do it privately if you like cause I know some on here are
 going to revile you no matter what you say. So can we talk?
 
 I don't mind, as long as you
 understand a few things at the outset. First, I rarely even
 think about the dude any more, except when something
 triggers a memory, as something you said in one of your
 posts did yesterday. Second, I don't waste my time
 either condemning or defending him -- he was what he was,
 and I don't much care what anyone thinks about him. 
 
 Third, however, and as you say, if we do it here you can
 expect a lot of piling on from stalkers here.
 They'll do it for various reasons. Some will start
 piling on when they hear tales of thousands of his students
 witnessing siddhis they've *still* only read about,
 after 30 years of pursuing them and after paying thousands
 of dollars to supposedly learn them. Some will pile on
 because they don't like me, and they mistakenly believe
 that if they diss a former teacher I still have some
 positive feelings about, it'll push my hot buttons the
 same way me saying things about MMY pushes theirs, and thus
 I'll react and get into one of the Robin-like
 confrontations with them they so hope for. 
 
 That's not gonna happen, so we might as well do it here.
 :-) But I'll warn you ahead of time that my attention
 span for things Rama-related is pretty damned
 short these days, so if you have questions, make the first
 few count, because at some point I'll get
 tired of the whole thing and bail. :-)
 
 That said, ask anything you want, and I'll do my best to
 answer your questions as honestly as I wrote Road Trip
 Mind. That would be a good place to start if you are
 actually curious about the dude. I wrote it to get the
 Rama-monkey off my back, and it worked. I don't actually
 have a great deal more to say about the guy than I said in
 that book. 
 
 http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/index.html
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


[FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-16 Thread authfriend
As Barry knows, by far the majority of the, er, reviling with regard to 
Barry's stint with Lenz has been in connection with Barry's hypocrisy in using 
his experience with Lenz to stalk TMers and others he doesn't like (see the 
example in red below, just one of many such).
 

 Third, however, and as you say, if we do it here you can expect a lot of 
piling on from stalkers here. They'll do it for various reasons. Some will 
start piling on when they hear tales of thousands of his students witnessing 
siddhis they've *still* only read about, after 30 years of pursuing them and 
after paying thousands of dollars to supposedly learn them. Some will pile on 
because they don't like me, and they mistakenly believe that if they diss a 
former teacher I still have some positive feelings about, it'll push my hot 
buttons the same way me saying things about MMY pushes theirs, and thus I'll 
react and get into one of the Robin-like confrontations with them they so 
hope for. 

Just for the record, when I comment on one of Barry's posts, it is NOT in the 
hope of getting into a confrontation with him. That's one of Barry's many 
narcissistic fantasies. I'm happy to express my opinions and let them stand as 
such without any reaction from him.
 




Re: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-16 Thread Share Long
-gods (think MMY) have an 
incredible way of *just never thinking about* anything that contradicts that 
dogma. They stuff any contradictions or cognitive dissonance away back in a 
corner of their minds -- literally out of sight, out of mind. 

So technically many of these people are *not* lying -- consciously -- when they 
say that TM is not a religion, often only a couple of hours after leaving a 
celebration at MUM in which they chanted and made offerings to Hindu gods. 
They push the dogma they've been told to repeat -- and which they desperately 
*need* to be true to keep up their allegiance to this org/cause they've been 
told is so important -- and they just hide the cognitive dissonance away in the 
back of their minds and never acknowledge it. 

I have sadly been there, done that. Both in the TMO and in the Rama trip, so I 
know it's not only possible, but probable for *most* of the TM Teachers 
repeating the TM is not a religion meme they've been taught to repeat. I 
myself repeated the TM is 100% life-supporting and cannot possibly have any 
negative characteristics even *while* assigned to the Twitching Group in 
Fiuggi, surrounded by dozens of people like myself experiencing non-stop jerks 
and spasms and symptoms that looked for all the world like a viral outbreak of 
Tourette's Syndrome. It took *years* -- after hearing of a number of suicides 
and seeing people wind up in mental hospitals after long TM courses -- before I 
became open enough to recognize that I'd been lying to myself, and thus to 
others. I *wanted* to believe the no negative side effects meme, so I managed 
to blot out recognition and acknowledgement of anything that suggested it 
wasn't true. 

I would suspect that many of the people still clinging to the TM is not a 
religion meme are doing the same thing. A few may indeed be consciously aware 
of the reality and be lying about it, but my bet is that many are still so 
stuck in the cult mindset that they feel they *have* to believe what they were 
told to believe, and *have* to repeat it every time the question comes up. 

Yes, it boggles the mind, but that is the nature of the cult mindset. People 
who had to learn and memorize the English translation of the TM puja and hold 
it lively in their minds every time they chanted the Sanskrit version of it 
will look you straight in the eyes and call it a non-religious, traditional 
ceremony. *Some* part of them knows that they're lying, but it's a part they 
can never admit into their conscious awareness. 

It's really weird, but it happens every day, in pretty much every religion, 
spiritual organization, and cult in the world. It even happens in business. I 
remember a documentary about activists who were tried in court for staging a 
demonstration at a General Electric plant back in (I think) the 60s. The 
screenplay was largely drawn from transcripts of the actual trials, and thus 
the under-oath testimony of workers at the plant, *dozens* of whom claimed that 
they didn't know what they were building in that GE plant. We just worked 
there, they all said, claiming that they had no idea that they were working in 
the largest manufacturing facility for atomic weapons in the world. Every 
morning they walked in through a main entrance hall in which was prominently 
displayed the nosecone of an Atlas missile, and yet they claimed that they 
didn't know what they were building megadeath every day on their assembly 
lines. 

Go figure. That's the cult mindset for you -- protect the myths, protect the 
memes, protect the image of the group that pays you or that you owe allegiance 
to, hide your own everyday lies by hiding the truth even from yourself, way 
down deep in parts of your mind that you never allow to surface. That's what I 
think is going on when any TM Teacher these days claims that the TMO is not a 
religious organization. They're not necessarily lying to you; they're lying to 
themselves. 


 
 On Wed, 1/15/14, anartaxius@... anartaxius@... wrote:
 
  Subject: [FairfieldLife] RE: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
  Date: Wednesday, January 15, 2014, 4:58 AM
 
'Apostasy is the
  formal disaffiliation from or abandonment or renunciation of
  a religion by a person. One who commits apostasy is known as
  an apostate.'
  As I never was the member of
  any religion, I cannot ever be correctly accused of
  apostasy. As the TM org claims it is not a religion, so no
  one can ever be correctly accused for disafilliating or
  abandoning TM as apostasy (unless of course the TM org is
  lying about that claim).




Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.

2014-01-16 Thread Michael Jackson
I changed my day so I could delve into what you had written - I have gone 
through a lot of it and it answers most of my questions. Mainly I wanted to 
know if you thought Rama was legit in the beginning and if you witnessed any of 
the power or sidhi demonstrations he did. Obviously yes to both.

I had a hard time reading much of it because I began to feel a great deal of 
energy as soon as I started reading, I mean LOTS of energy. So I am taking the 
reading in stages. Read a little. Sweep my floors a little, clean the 
bathrooms, come down off the energy a little and read a little more. 

Two minor questions I have are:

Did you know this guy? Mark Laxer

Have you ever read his book Take Me for a Ride: Coming of Age in a Destructive 
Cult Paperback?

If so is it accurate?

That's all - back to the energy now and thanks for talking and thanks for 
writing about Rama and all the other things you wrote about.

On Thu, 1/16/14, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 4:02 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Thanks Barry - I am gonna read what you have
 written and if I have any questions after that, I'll
 send 'em. 
 
 
 
 Got a busy day today, but I intend to start reading it later
 tonight.
 
 
 
 On Thu, 1/16/14, TurquoiseB turquoi...@yahoo.com
 wrote:
 
 
 
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Apostasy, is a terrible thing.
 
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 
  Date: Thursday, January 16, 2014, 8:21 AM
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 

 

 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson 
 
  wrote:
 
  
 
   I would like to have a conversation with you about
 your
 
  time with Rama if you are willing. I am more than happy to
 
  do it privately if you like cause I know some on here are
 
  going to revile you no matter what you say. So can we
 talk?
 
  
 
  I don't mind, as long as you
 
  understand a few things at the outset. First, I rarely
 even
 
  think about the dude any more, except when something
 
  triggers a memory, as something you said in one of your
 
  posts did yesterday. Second, I don't waste my time
 
  either condemning or defending him -- he was what he was,
 
  and I don't much care what anyone thinks about him. 
 
  
 
  Third, however, and as you say, if we do it here you can
 
  expect a lot of piling on from stalkers here.
 
  They'll do it for various reasons. Some will start
 
  piling on when they hear tales of thousands of his
 students
 
  witnessing siddhis they've *still* only read about,
 
  after 30 years of pursuing them and after paying thousands
 
  of dollars to supposedly learn them. Some will pile on
 
  because they don't like me, and they mistakenly
 believe
 
  that if they diss a former teacher I still have some
 
  positive feelings about, it'll push my hot buttons the
 
  same way me saying things about MMY pushes theirs, and
 thus
 
  I'll react and get into one of the Robin-like
 
  confrontations with them they so hope for. 
 
  
 
  That's not gonna happen, so we might as well do it
 here.
 
  :-) But I'll warn you ahead of time that my attention
 
  span for things Rama-related is pretty damned
 
  short these days, so if you have questions, make the first
 
  few count, because at some point I'll get
 
  tired of the whole thing and bail. :-)
 
  
 
  That said, ask anything you want, and I'll do my best
 to
 
  answer your questions as honestly as I wrote Road
 Trip
 
  Mind. That would be a good place to start if you are
 
  actually curious about the dude. I wrote it to get the
 
  Rama-monkey off my back, and it worked. I don't
 actually
 
  have a great deal more to say about the guy than I said in
 
  that book. 
 
  
 
  http://www.ramalila.net/RoadTripMind/index.html
 
   
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
   
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 

 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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