Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Amanda Ward]

Hi Zoltan,

As I sit here playing with 7 different Macs (soon to be 8), the idea of a
Mac with an Intel CPU just seems odd. Still, I think this could be a
positive move for Apple.

I've run wintel boxes since '83 and the only real problems I've encountered
have come from the =win= part of that concoction. Install a non-M$ operating
system and life becomes much easier.

OS X is a very robust software package and when coupled with the speed
advantage of the Intel chip, there could be some seriously cool machines
coming out of Cupertino.

I agree that there won't be much change in the Mac vs. PC "war". Windows and
Office is the worldwide standard for business and I just don't see that
changing anytime soon. Also, peecees are going to be cheaper than Macs... I
mean, you can run right down to Bob's Electronic Emporium and pick up a
WinDellGate for $399 and change (free upgrades, act now), but ya know...
they'll get what they pay for!!!

Just my $.02 worth...

Amanda
7100/80
7600/200
6400/200 (2 of 'em)
Powerbook G3/266 Wallstreet
iMac/266 Blueberry
iMac/333 Grape (soon)
B&W G3 w/G4-450
iBook G3/500
an' some peecee things ;)
 

> -Original Message-
> From: G-Books [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zoltan
> Batiz
> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 9:09 PM
> To: G-Books
> Subject: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I just had to add one more thought on this subject, and wanted to see
> if anyone agrees.  After reading all the input from this invaluable
> list group, and listening to the radio (Leo Laporte has said some VERY
> interesting things when it comes to Apple moving to Intel on AM 640),
> and reading all the relevant articles in mags I have come to a very
> logical and realistic conclusion:
> 
> The proverbial gap between PC's and Mac's will not change.  In fact, I
> honestly think that NOTHING will change at all.  Call me an optimist,
> but the only thing that's going to happen besides faster Macs overall,
> is that one day a PC user will be going over to his/her old friends
> house who happens to be a Mac user and that Mac user will tell his/her
> PC user, "hey did you know that my Mac has an Intel designed
> processor?"  The astonished PC user will just be that. . .astonished.
> Then they'll go about their business.  I expect nothing more, nothing
> less.  Macs will still be "just above" PC's, PC's will still dominate
> the business world, and Mac's will still dominate the design world.
> 
> Anyone agree?  Or is everyone leaning on Laporte's side saying that
> "this move is a stake in Apple's heart"
> 
> 
> Zoltan
> 


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 17, 2005, at 11:14 AM, Michael J. Amato [c] wrote:



Please remember all the hoopla about Apple shifting to Unix with OSX.
Cries of doomsday and a big Wass'up.


90% of the people I know were not calling doomsday, but more like  
'YeeeHAW!!! ABOUT FREAKIN'TIME!!!'






There seems to be a wider horizon opening up. Intel is a chip  
making company

period. IBM had so little expertise they had to sell their computer
manufacturing unit.


This isn't 'so little expertise' this was a recognition that IBM  
isn't in the commodity PC business. IBM's laptops are widely regarded  
as some of the best built in the industry. It's just an industry on a  
race to the bottom, lead by Dell.



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This is the sig who says 'Ni!'


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[darm0k]

At 09:09 PM -0700 06/16/2005, Zoltan Batiz wrote:


I have come to a very logical and realistic conclusion:

The proverbial gap between PC's and Mac's will not change.  In fact, 
I honestly think that NOTHING will change at all.


The Mac's market share will decrease, just like it did during the 
68k->PPC and 9->X transitions.  Partly because of hesitant buyers and 
partly because of developers being jerked around - which looses 
marketing momentum.  Hopefully, Intel's influence (and the fact that 
they pay for marketing) will encourage Apple to create a decent ad 
campaign. (LOL; yea right).


hum. A new potential here - Apple could regain market share because 
they'll be able to get enough chips to make more systems.  Currently, 
they loose way too many sales because they're unable to deliver.


Call me an optimist, but the only thing that's going to happen 
besides faster Macs overall,


Faster is a given, as technologies improve.  The issue is "faster than"

Up side is that people will be able to compare GHz to GHz.

The down side is that we're totally going to loose the AltaVec edge. 
So Macs will rarely (just the brief frog hop at release time) be 
faster than PCs.


...Headache: What if Dell scoops Apple?  What if Dell's cycle time 
(design to market) is shorter than Apple's?  Intel commits to 
high-volume of a faster chip, and Dell's product hits the market 
before Apple's...  :(


Pretty design (and perhaps higher cost for Macs) aside, IMO, it will 
ultimately become a direct user experience competition, OS X vs 
Windows.  I fear that even with a faster Virtual PC running Windows, 
we'll still be marginalized due to the low app count and other 
perceptions.


Anyone agree?  Or is everyone leaning on Laporte's side saying that 
"this move is a stake in Apple's heart"


I think Apple will survive, barely.  Only time will tell.

Luckily, the Low End Mac market is thriving.  Prices are good. 
Supply is decent.  Expertise abounds...


- Dan.

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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[sacear3]

Zoltan,

I think your conclusion, from your analysis, is an accurate assessment. 
I also think that assessment is similar among those of this list. 
Additionally, that the message of your conclusion is very similar to 
messages previously posted to this list. So my analysis of your thought 
on the subject leads me to conclude with the assessment that the 
posters to this list generally are in accord about the issue of Apple 
switching to Intel, that it's no big deal, or that is is no where near 
as big a deal as some people are making it out to be. Apple Macs will 
be Apple Macs, no matter what CPU is in the system. Apple Macs will 
still be on the leading edge of design and be a cut above PCs.


[the following is humor, so please take this salt shaker before 
reading] :-)
So, Zoltan, were glad you caught up with us. Welcome to the party! Oh, 
and there is still plenty of hors d'oeuvres and refreshments. Hmmnf, 
delicious. So please, help yourself. Those Motorola chips over there 
are pretty good, [in a whisper] but they're about to go stale, so be 
forewarned. [resume full voice] Oh, and the crow isn't that bad 
actually. Tastes kind of like chicken. ;-)


Have a great weekend all!

Best regards,
Scott


In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Zoltan Batiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:09:09 -0700

Hello All,

I just had to add one more thought on this subject, and wanted to see
if anyone agrees.  After reading all the input from this invaluable
list group, and listening to the radio (Leo Laporte has said some VERY
interesting things when it comes to Apple moving to Intel on AM 640),
and reading all the relevant articles in mags I have come to a very
logical and realistic conclusion:

The proverbial gap between PC's and Mac's will not change.  In fact, I
honestly think that NOTHING will change at all.  Call me an optimist,
but the only thing that's going to happen besides faster Macs overall,
is that one day a PC user will be going over to his/her old friends
house who happens to be a Mac user and that Mac user will tell his/her
PC user, "hey did you know that my Mac has an Intel designed
processor?"  The astonished PC user will just be that. . .astonished.
Then they'll go about their business.  I expect nothing more, nothing
less.  Macs will still be "just above" PC's, PC's will still dominate
the business world, and Mac's will still dominate the design world.

Anyone agree?  Or is everyone leaning on Laporte's side saying that
"this move is a stake in Apple's heart"


Zoltan



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?! [signed]

[Michael J. Amato [c]]

Please remember all the hoopla about Apple shifting to Unix with OSX.
Cries of doomsday and a big Wass'up.

Apple shifting to an open system???

It's all been uphill pretty much.

The biggest problem Apple had with Motorola/IBM was delivering a faster chip
for their laptops, one of the bigger selling sectors.

There seems to be a wider horizon opening up. Intel is a chip making company
period. IBM had so little expertise they had to sell their computer
manufacturing unit. Remember IBM was responsible for Microsoft, practically
giving them DOS, figuring it wasn't worth much and clearing the way for BG
and crew to monopolize the OS for pc's.

Open vistas ahead, maybe even getting game for Mac!

I'm sure this is a well thought strategy for the future.
Hang on for the ride.
-- 
Mike Amato

"To think too long about doing a thing often becomes its
undoing."
-- Eva Young 





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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Larry le Mac]

From: Zoltan Batiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



I just had to add one more thought on this subject,
and wanted to see if anyone agrees.



I agree with you Zoltan.

I think anyone who thinks in the lines of a Mac becoming
just another PC box because the CPU is made by Intel is
more than just a little ignorant of the whole situation.

Your visualisation was very good IMO.


Larry

_
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Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Zoltan Batiz]

Hello All,

I just had to add one more thought on this subject, and wanted to see 
if anyone agrees.  After reading all the input from this invaluable 
list group, and listening to the radio (Leo Laporte has said some VERY 
interesting things when it comes to Apple moving to Intel on AM 640), 
and reading all the relevant articles in mags I have come to a very 
logical and realistic conclusion:


The proverbial gap between PC's and Mac's will not change.  In fact, I 
honestly think that NOTHING will change at all.  Call me an optimist, 
but the only thing that's going to happen besides faster Macs overall, 
is that one day a PC user will be going over to his/her old friends 
house who happens to be a Mac user and that Mac user will tell his/her 
PC user, "hey did you know that my Mac has an Intel designed 
processor?"  The astonished PC user will just be that. . .astonished.  
Then they'll go about their business.  I expect nothing more, nothing 
less.  Macs will still be "just above" PC's, PC's will still dominate 
the business world, and Mac's will still dominate the design world.


Anyone agree?  Or is everyone leaning on Laporte's side saying that 
"this move is a stake in Apple's heart"



Zoltan 



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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[Kristina]

Sorry for the double post...I just got excited...I will be listing it as
soon as I can remember how to connect my scanner back to my G3...Is it the
scanner first  or the CD burner?

Kristina


> Actually, Kristina. . .you could sell your sticker on eBay.  Believe it
> or not, they are worth money.  I had the original "package" that came
> with my PowerMac 9500, which I purchased new in 1995.  We won't go into
> how much I paid for the thing. . .AHHH!  Anyway, I recently sold the
> package of stickers on eBay for . . .are you sitting down?   $68.00!!
> For stickers!!  whew!
> 
> 
> Zoltan
> 


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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[Kristina]

on 6/14/05 9:30 PM, Jess Batiz at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Kristina wrote:
> 
>> I still have my original apple decal that came with my SE 30 in 1989.
>> I never used it.
>> 
>> maybe I should pass it on
>> 
>> Kristina
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Actually, Kristina. . .you could sell your sticker on eBay.  Believe it
> or not, they are worth money.  I had the original "package" that came
> with my PowerMac 9500, which I purchased new in 1995.  We won't go into
> how much I paid for the thing. . .AHHH!  Anyway, I recently sold the
> package of stickers on eBay for . . .are you sitting down?   $68.00!!
> For stickers!!  whew!
> 
> 
> Zoltan
> 


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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[Michael J. Amato]

The bad - iLife iPhoto iDvd iNtel

The good - maybe now we can build a computer on our own to use OSX
=
Mike Amato

mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[Jess Batiz]

On Jun 14, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Kristina wrote:


I still have my original apple decal that came with my SE 30 in 1989.
I never used it.

maybe I should pass it on

Kristina



Actually, Kristina. . .you could sell your sticker on eBay.  Believe it 
or not, they are worth money.  I had the original "package" that came 
with my PowerMac 9500, which I purchased new in 1995.  We won't go into 
how much I paid for the thing. . .AHHH!  Anyway, I recently sold the 
package of stickers on eBay for . . .are you sitting down?   $68.00!!  
For stickers!!  whew!



Zoltan


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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[Kristina]

I still have my original apple decal that came with my SE 30 in 1989.
I never used it.

maybe I should pass it on

Kristina


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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 13, 2005, at 10:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Also, you bring up a good point, why do people leave all those  
stickers on their computers? Are they some sort of badge of honor?  
More like badges of courage on Windows machines!  :-)





Like this



This is a computer a faculty member has owned for a couple of months  
now...I see these that are years old on some folk's computers.


--
Bruce Johnson

This is the sig who says 'Ni!'


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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[darm0k]

At 02:13 PM -0400 06/14/2005, Timothy Luoma wrote:

On Jun 14, 2005, at 1:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Also, you bring up a good point, why do people leave all those 
stickers on their computers? Are they some sort of badge of honor?


Inertia is a powerful force.

Plus, taking them off usually involves some sort of sticky mess left 
behind that is a pain to deal with.


sigh.  Do not.  Repeat: DO NOT.  DO NOT use nail polish remover on 
beige cases...  sigh. sigh sigh.  Stick to WD40 and 409.  sigh.


- Dan.

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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[Timothy Luoma]

On Jun 14, 2005, at 1:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Also, you bring up a good point, why do people leave all those  
stickers on their computers? Are they some sort of badge of honor?


Inertia is a powerful force.

Plus, taking them off usually involves some sort of sticky mess left  
behind that is a pain to deal with.


FWIW my Dell came with only one small "Designed for Windows 2000"  
sticker on it.  Some of the others are loaded down with them, I know,  
but Dell has much more restraint.


TjL



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[darm0k]

At 03:07 PM -0700 06/13/2005, Bruce Johnson wrote:


There's an article discussing this on Forbes' site today:



They point out that Apple has a higher brand recognition than Intel 
does, that Intel may be getting more attention from their 
association with Apple than vice-versa.


I really don't think that we're going to be seeing 'Intel Inside' 
stickers anytime soon.


I'd forgotten that bit about Intel paying for advertizing.  Given 
Apple's inability to do good ads ... I wouldn't mind 'Intel Inside' 
logos.


Image:  An apple logo, with a small 'intel inside' on it, laying out 
in a beach chair, getting a suntan with the Blue Man Group. 
Meanwhile sharkish windoze logos are chasing people out of the bloody 
water.


But the 'looking like race cars' thing makes me chuckle. I see more 
Windows laptops come through with ALL the myriad of stickers they 
have plastered all over them when they're sold. It's as if people 
think the mattress tag police have a laptop division...


My current desktop is a PM 7300.  It was once part of a grid, in the 
Physics Dept of UC.Berkley! (the grid is currently XServes, used for 
simulations).  It cleaned up nicely, after I got over the "sticker 
shock".


http://pcp02220027pcs.echryh01.nj.comcast.net/misc/uglymac.jpg

- Dan.

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Re: intel inside stickers and Apple branding (was "Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!")

[sacear3]

Bruce,

That was a good article, thanks for posting that link. Which company 
will benefit from branding is interesting to think about. I think both 
can benefit if they respect each other and not try to rip each other 
off (and not put "intel inside" stickers on the front or top of Macs!). 
Which brings up a question: Would Mac buyers settle for the Intel 
sticker on the back or bottom of a Mac or PowerBook? How about on the 
cardboard packing box?


I have been reading about Intel's new CEO Paul Otellini the past week. 
From what I have read he seems like a forward looking person with 
positive attitude and energy. Seems he has been courting Apple at least 
as long as IBM and Freescale have been messing up and stringing Apple 
along. Hopefully Mr. Otellini's positive attributes will spread 
throughout Intel. On paper, Otellini seems to be a good fit for a 
partnership with Steve Jobs and Apple. So, time will tell and we will 
see.


Also, you bring up a good point, why do people leave all those stickers 
on their computers? Are they some sort of badge of honor? More like 
badges of courage on Windows machines!  :-)


Best regards,
Scott



On Jun 13, 2005, at 2:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Zoltan,

I hope you meant that you hope future Macs are NOT stuck with that
(I will change the adjective to) irritating "intel inside" sticker.

I certainly prefer not to have any ads on my computers. I
especially prefer to have my Macs not resembling race cars.


There's an article discussing this on Forbes' site today:



They point out that Apple has a higher brand recognition than Intel
does, that Intel may be getting more attention from their association
with Apple than vice-versa.

I really don't think that we're going to be seeing 'Intel Inside'
stickers anytime soon.

But the 'looking like race cars' thing makes me chuckle. I see more
Windows laptops come through with ALL the myriad of stickers they
have plastered all over them when they're sold. It's as if people
think the mattress tag police have a laptop division...

--
"You can't make a fact out of an opinion by raising your voice."



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Zoltan Batiz]

OOPS!!  I DID MEAN NOT!  Wow, now does that sound educated?!  Of all 
the ironic typos to happen, it seems I forgot to type one little word 
that ended changing the point. . ."not".  Well Scott, at least you got 
it.  :)


Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


Zoltan,

I hope you meant that you hope future Macs are NOT stuck with that (I 
will change the adjective to) irritating "intel inside" sticker.


I certainly prefer not to have any ads on my computers. I especially 
prefer to have my Macs not resembling race cars.


Best regards,
Scott


OK FINE.  You have all made excellent arguments.  I just hope that
Intel's technology doesn't screw anything up.  I also hope the future
Mac's are stuck with that stupid sticker, "INTEL INSIDE".  Yikes!  (I
know this won't happen, at least not while Jobs is alive, but it's
funny anyway)


Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 13, 2005, at 2:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Zoltan,

I hope you meant that you hope future Macs are NOT stuck with that  
(I will change the adjective to) irritating "intel inside" sticker.


I certainly prefer not to have any ads on my computers. I  
especially prefer to have my Macs not resembling race cars.


There's an article discussing this on Forbes' site today:




They point out that Apple has a higher brand recognition than Intel  
does, that Intel may be getting more attention from their association  
with Apple than vice-versa.


I really don't think that we're going to be seeing 'Intel Inside'  
stickers anytime soon.


But the 'looking like race cars' thing makes me chuckle. I see more  
Windows laptops come through with ALL the myriad of stickers they  
have plastered all over them when they're sold. It's as if people  
think the mattress tag police have a laptop division...


--
"You can't make a fact out of an opinion by raising your voice."

Bruce Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[sacear3]

Zoltan,

I hope you meant that you hope future Macs are NOT stuck with that (I 
will change the adjective to) irritating "intel inside" sticker.


I certainly prefer not to have any ads on my computers. I especially 
prefer to have my Macs not resembling race cars.


Best regards,
Scott


OK FINE.  You have all made excellent arguments.  I just hope that
Intel's technology doesn't screw anything up.  I also hope the future
Mac's are stuck with that stupid sticker, "INTEL INSIDE".  Yikes!  (I
know this won't happen, at least not while Jobs is alive, but it's
funny anyway)


Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[peter]

  Most PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac community

ANYWAY.



Now, I'm not so sure about that.   I know some folks who claim 
they use Macs because they weren't smart enough to keep track of all the 
things one needs to do to get a windoze machine to work.



Peter



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 13, 2005, at 9:59 AM, Dan O'Donnell wrote:


On Jun 12, 2005, at 9:33 PM, Ben Dyer wrote:


Personally, I'm looking forward to replacing my 1.67GHz PowerBook  
with something roughly 3 times as fast (if what I've been hearing  
about OS X performance on the developer boxes is correct) in about  
a year's time. The transition will be a headache for a lot of  
developers, but it's definitely the right move to make.




It seems to me that for many of us the big question is about our  
investment in software, and whether buying a new x86 machine may be  
the least expensive part of a change.


That is, repurchasing some - or much - of our accumulated software  
in a version that has been recently translated from PPC code to x86  
code could be far more expensive than shelling out $2k-$3k for a  
new machine. I can see this as an opportunity for many software  
developers and publishers to resell the same title to those who  
need it for some cost either equal to or somewhat less than the  
cost of that same title when purchased new.


Rosetta is going to make that transition a lot easier than you might  
think, depending on the app.


Yeah, it will depend on the developer, and where they are in their  
own upgrade cycles. Look at Adobe for example: getting the OS X- 
compatible version of Photoshop cost the same as an upgrade...because  
it WAS an upgrade, from Version 6 to Version 7.


I expect the response of developers to run the gamut between 'here  
download the X86 version for free' to 'pay $19.95 for a cd of the  
universal version' to 'upgrade to version N+1 Of Bloowats  
confabulator for $149' to 'I'm sorry, but Quark is not yet finished  
evaluating the commmittee selection to determine the X86 porting  
schedule team membership.'


This is a disruptive change, but believe it or not, most developers  
don't want to piss off their customers. They're not seeing this and  
gloating 'A Ha! I can fleece the suckers for another full-price copy,  
Bwahahahahaha!'


An app that merely takes a recompile to port is going to bring on  
nothing more than media costs for companies to make the switch; this  
is far less of a change than 68K to PPC or OS 9 to OS X.


--
Bruce Johnson

This is the sig who says 'Ni!'


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Dennis B. Swaney]

At 10:08 PM -0400 6/12/05, Pacer wrote:



I feel the PowerPC was a bit more inherently stable (read some of 
the notes on MacSlash about bit addressing) and the Altivec 
instructions were likely a bit better for high-end number-crunching 
(I've already read multiple worries from scientists who prefer the 
PowerPC),


Of course they're worried. The PPC doesn't have a problem crunching 
numbers while there is a history of Intel trying to cover up the fact 
that they made chips that DO have problems crunching numbers.

--
Sincerely,
Dennis B. Swaney

"Windows is a command-line OS with a GUI shell while Mac System 10 is 
... oh, never mind."


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Dan O'Donnell]

On Jun 12, 2005, at 9:33 PM, Ben Dyer wrote:

Personally, I'm looking forward to replacing my 1.67GHz PowerBook with 
something roughly 3 times as fast (if what I've been hearing about OS 
X performance on the developer boxes is correct) in about a year's 
time. The transition will be a headache for a lot of developers, but 
it's definitely the right move to make.


It seems to me that for many of us the big question is about our 
investment in software, and whether buying a new x86 machine may be the 
least expensive part of a change.


That is, repurchasing some - or much - of our accumulated software in a 
version that has been recently translated from PPC code to x86 code 
could be far more expensive than shelling out $2k-$3k for a new 
machine. I can see this as an opportunity for many software developers 
and publishers to resell the same title to those who need it for some 
cost either equal to or somewhat less than the cost of that same title 
when purchased new.



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 13, 2005, at 6:18 AM, Helen Nersesova wrote:

-An old friend of mine and macs says that he welcomes the idea  
about as much as making MacDonalds compulsory:)




If you're programming in Cocoa, and your app doesn't do anything  
funky with Altivec or other bits of hardware, it's a matter of a few  
hours of work; some of which is taken up with installing XCode 2.1.  
For many apps it's a matter of opening your project, opening one menu  
item, clicking on a checkbox, then recompiling.


The developers for Luxology said they ported their Modo 3D Modeller  
in a couple of hours, literally it needed just a recompile. www.luxology.com/modo/>


If yours is a Carbon app, then is definitely more work; but I've  
heard it described as 'about on par from moving from 10.2 to 10.3'.


Of you use Code Warrior, or some other development environment, then  
you're in for a hard slog. However, Apple's been urging you to switch  
for quite a while now.


-We are developers of software for Macs. Hope, Apple might be  
willing to provide the developer kit at a lower price (or even at  
no charge.) Surely they realize that without developers, their  
product will not be successful.



Apple is 'renting' the development boxes for $1k to developers (they  
have to be returned when the real X86 macs ship, from what I've read.)


Their development software, as always, is entirely free. Go to  
Apple's site and download it.


--
Bruce Johnson

"no matter where you go, there you are", B. Banzai



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Andrea Stansbury]

Heh.  I agree totally.  It's nothing that terribly exciting.  And I 
don't think that Apple is stupid enough to do something that would 
completely ostracize their loyal users like the people on this list.  
I'm sure things will be just the same and with any luck you won't even 
notice the difference when the new Macs come out.


Try to think of it this way.  All our PowerPC based apples are going to 
be collector's items sooner than we thought.  :)


And, no, the sky is not falling.  But perhaps the world *is* ending.

On Jun 12, 2005, at 8:19 PM, Timothy Luoma wrote:


Wow.

You know, after a year+ of living in the Mac community, I really 
thought that all those people who talked about how crazy/fanatical Mac 
users are were totally exaggerating.


And, of course, for the most part, they are.

But there are a handful out there who really need to step back and 
look at how wrapped up they are in their computer(s).  The rationality 
just snaps off.


The sky is not falling.  No one killed any puppies.  Or even kitten.  
Hell is still hot.


TjL



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Andrea Stansbury
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Helen Nersesova]

-An old friend of mine and macs says that he welcomes the idea about as 
much as making MacDonalds compulsory:)


-We are developers of software for Macs. Hope, Apple might be willing 
to provide the developer kit at a lower price (or even at no charge.) 
Surely they realize that without developers, their product will not be 
successful.



Helen Nersesova from BeLight Software
www.belightsoft.com
iChat / AIM Screen Name: hbravura




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[david]

On Jun 13, 2005, at 12:33 AM, Ben Dyer wrote:

The jury's still out on exactly what they'll do with the chipset,  
whether it'll be a standard Intel type or custom-made for Apple,  
but either way, it won't be too far removed (technologically) from  
ordinary PC hardware.


This is one of the big questions - there's even been talk that Intel  
would do the motherboard design for Apple. My track record of second  
guessing Apple is only so-so but I can't see Apple totally walking  
away from the hardware design of their computers. I can, however, see  
Apple working *with* Intel. I'm also guessing that the chipset will  
be far enough removed from the standard Wintel chipset that it will  
require more than a little software hacking to run OS X on a Dell.


Personally, I'm looking forward to replacing my 1.67GHz PowerBook  
with something roughly 3 times as fast (if what I've been hearing  
about OS X performance on the developer boxes is correct) in about  
a year's time. The transition will be a headache for a lot of  
developers, but it's definitely the right move to make.


It will be interesting to see how OS X performs on Intel - it will  
especially be interesting to compare WinXP to OS X on very similar  
hardware. I'm currently using a Dell notebook at the university and  
it is quite impressive (although I know bit rot will eventually set  
in and at some point a virus is going to get past the barrier or some  
piece of malware will be implanted and then I'll want to throw it  
across the room). This is the first Windows notebook I've used that I  
could consider using full time - I've felt that way about PowerBooks  
since my first iBook. That it isn't significantly slower than my  
desktop is important but what I particularly like is how frugal it is  
with the battery. And that is why I'm excited about the switch. Once  
again I'll be able to own a PowerBook that can go all day without  
being tethered.


david


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Zoltan Batiz]

OK FINE.  You have all made excellent arguments.  I just hope that 
Intel's technology doesn't screw anything up.  I also hope the future 
Mac's are stuck with that stupid sticker, "INTEL INSIDE".  Yikes!  (I 
know this won't happen, at least not while Jobs is alive, but it's 
funny anyway)



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[sacear3]

 Mac OS X runs fine on Intel. Steve Jobs is NOT a snakeoil salesman. 
Mac OS X STARTED on Intel chips (well 68k, then Intel) !!! It was 
originally called "NeXTSTEP" and ran on 68k hardware made buy NeXT 
Computer (similar to the original Macs). It was ported to Intel in 
1993. It ran just fine. NeXT then ported the entire OS as "Openstep" to 
Sun, HP, and continued Intel. All apps worked just fine. Apple 
purchased NeXT and began porting the OS to PPC. That is what you are 
now running on current Macs. A PPC version (basically) of Openstep. It 
has gotten a lot better in the years since Apple did the port. 
Meanwhile, in the Apple labs, they continued to keep the Intel version 
on par with the PPC version as Steve said "Just in case". Well, guess 
what? Every app Apple has released has been Intel compliant (Xcode). 
It's all ready to go. It's been ready to go!


 You act as if this is something brand new. IT IS NOT NEW!! In fact, 
the OS has existed much, much longer on Intel than on PPC! There's no 
question the apps will run (if they were done using XCode). It's all 
new names (Universal Binaries, etc.) but it's all the same old thing 
that has been done a number of times before. Market share? Well OS 9 is 
dead. It's been dead for 5 years now. There is no market share for new 
purchases of that OS. Mac OS X (NeXTSTEP) has done nothing but grow the 
market share over the last 5 years since Apple released it.


 Each time there has been a transition onto a new chip, the OS has 
gotten better and better. The OS is great, the apps are great. A new 
chip is the least of Apple's worries.





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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Ben Dyer]

If you look at the Apple developer documentation for the switch,  
you'll see that they will in fact be using standard x86 chips in  
future Macs. Given the timeframe of the switch, and Intel's processor  
roadmaps, I'm betting on them replacing G4s with the "Yonah" Pentium  
M (32-bit 2.13GHz+, dual core, "667MHz" FSB, 2MB L2 cache), and G5s  
with the "Merom" (64-bit, probably starting 2.5-3GHz, dual core).


The new Macs also won't have Open Firmware -- reportedly, they'll use  
Intel's new EFI (http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/).


The jury's still out on exactly what they'll do with the chipset,  
whether it'll be a standard Intel type or custom-made for Apple, but  
either way, it won't be too far removed (technologically) from  
ordinary PC hardware.


Personally, I'm looking forward to replacing my 1.67GHz PowerBook  
with something roughly 3 times as fast (if what I've been hearing  
about OS X performance on the developer boxes is correct) in about a  
year's time. The transition will be a headache for a lot of  
developers, but it's definitely the right move to make.


Cheers,
Ben

On 13 Jun 2005, at 12:24 , Laurent Daudelin wrote:

The exact processor is pretty irrelevant. As was demonstrated at  
the WWDC,
Mac OS X is easily portable to another processor. That doesn't mean  
any
processor but they could recompile OS X for pretty much any  
compressor they
like. The key is here: as long as they have a compiler that can  
generate

executable code for that processor, we are in business!

So, I would take the references to the "x86" with a grain of salt...

-Laurent.




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Pacer]

My Fellow PowerBook-philes,

Not quite the case.  In order to compile a universal binary, that 
universal binary must have binary specific code for each architecture it 
will be running on.  The "universal binaries" Jobs spoke of at the WWDC 
are for PowerPC and x86.  They could include other architectures, such 
as SPARC or Itanium or some other line, but they have not.


So while it might be relatively trivial to recompile code, the code 
would still need to be recompiled after another switch.  Which means a 
software developer would have to re-release the product with the new 
Universal Binary which included the new processor.  Which means we'd all 
have to buy that new version to have it work on all the supported 
architectures.


No, I am fairly certain, at least for the immediate future, Apple with 
use x86.


Sincerely,
Pacer the Loon


Laurent Daudelin wrote:


The exact processor is pretty irrelevant. As was demonstrated at the WWDC,

Mac OS X is easily portable to another processor. That doesn't mean any
processor but they could recompile OS X for pretty much any compressor they
like. The key is here: as long as they have a compiler that can generate
executable code for that processor, we are in business!

So, I would take the references to the "x86" with a grain of salt...

-Laurent.
 




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Laurent Daudelin]

on 12/06/05 22:08, Pacer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> My Fellow PowerBook-philes,
> 
> This is something I have been hearing a lot lately:  "Steve never said
> it would necessarily be x86 architecture!"
> 
> Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but it likely will be.  More clues
> point towards this than some other, fancier architecture.
> 
> For example:  The PowerMac he was running the presentation on was using
> an Intel Pentium 4 Ghz chip.  (Unless someone saw something different,
> the keynote was a bit grainy.)
> 
> The unviersal binaries are mentioned to be able to run on PowerPC and
> x86 Intel architecture.
> 
> The developer boxes that people have gotten have Pentiums in them.
> 
> This does not mean that Apple won't be using an Apple-specific chip at
> some point, but it does likely mean that said chip will likely be x86
> backward compatible.
> 
> I feel the PowerPC was a bit more inherently stable (read some of the
> notes on MacSlash about bit addressing) and the Altivec instructions
> were likely a bit better for high-end number-crunching (I've already
> read multiple worries from scientists who prefer the PowerPC), but for
> the over-all consumer I'd say there will not be much difference.  A
> program might crash twice a year instead of once a year, but it still
> won't affect the OS.
> 
> Virii also will not be an issue -- unless you believe some corporate spy
> is very intent on using the alleged HyperThreading exploit to steal your
> password so they can get access to all your iPhotos.
> 
> I'm a bit melancholy.  I liked being different.  I like the PowerPC.
> But it is a line not suited for Apple's plans.
> 
> I am more worried about the effect on Apple the company rather than any
> problems with new Macs.

The exact processor is pretty irrelevant. As was demonstrated at the WWDC,
Mac OS X is easily portable to another processor. That doesn't mean any
processor but they could recompile OS X for pretty much any compressor they
like. The key is here: as long as they have a compiler that can generate
executable code for that processor, we are in business!

So, I would take the references to the "x86" with a grain of salt...

-Laurent.
-- 

Laurent Daudelin   AIM/iChat: LaurentDaudelin
Logiciels Nemesys Software   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

flowchart n.: [techspeak] An archaic form of visual control-flow
specification employing arrows and 'speech balloons' of various shapes.
Hackers never use flowcharts, consider them extremely silly, and associate
them with COBOL programmers, card wallopers, and other lower forms of life.
This attitude follows from the observations that flowcharts (at least from a
hacker's point of view) are no easier to read than code, are less precise,
and tend to fall out of sync with the code (so that they either obfuscate it
rather than explaining it, or require extra maintenance effort that doesn't
improve the code). See also PDL, sense 1.



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Timothy Luoma]

On Jun 12, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:

Ok, I've watched the keynote address, read all the articles.  I  
still think Jobs is full of it.  I can't believe that he's decided  
to switch to Intel.  This has me really nervous.  Intel processors,  
despite the crappy OS that Microsnot tries to make for it, are very  
unstable in the virus sense.  I am concerned that "when" Intel  
based Macs start rolling out in '06 they are gonna be sitting ducks  
just waiting for the Intel-versed hacker to start shooting.  I AM  
NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ANY OF YOU WHO ARE EXCITED BY THIS.  THIS IS  
THE MOST DISTURBING THING I'VE HEARD SINCE THE FALL OF AMIGA.  I  
feel like I'm being let down in the computer industry once again.   
This move will eventually make all PowerPC Macs obsolete, just like  
the 68000 Mac's. . .so much for worrying about the G3's life; heck  
now the G5 is going to be phased out.  I am so tired of everyone  
trying to get somewhere in such a rush.  WHO CARES IF POWERPC IS  
SLOWER THAN CRAPTEL!!  I don't!  And millions of other Mac users  
don't!  Most PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac community  
ANYWAY.  I need to stop now. . .I'm so pissed I can barely type.   
This is what happens when I go up to Arrowhead for a few months on  
vacation. . .and come back to this.  I have one phrase for Jobs:   
"Greedy Bastard".


Wow.

You know, after a year+ of living in the Mac community, I really  
thought that all those people who talked about how crazy/fanatical  
Mac users are were totally exaggerating.


And, of course, for the most part, they are.

But there are a handful out there who really need to step back and  
look at how wrapped up they are in their computer(s).  The  
rationality just snaps off.


The sky is not falling.  No one killed any puppies.  Or even kitten.   
Hell is still hot.


TjL



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Pacer]

My Fellow PowerBook-philes,

This is something I have been hearing a lot lately:  "Steve never said 
it would necessarily be x86 architecture!"


Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but it likely will be.  More clues 
point towards this than some other, fancier architecture.


For example:  The PowerMac he was running the presentation on was using 
an Intel Pentium 4 Ghz chip.  (Unless someone saw something different, 
the keynote was a bit grainy.)


The unviersal binaries are mentioned to be able to run on PowerPC and 
x86 Intel architecture.


The developer boxes that people have gotten have Pentiums in them.

This does not mean that Apple won't be using an Apple-specific chip at 
some point, but it does likely mean that said chip will likely be x86 
backward compatible.


I feel the PowerPC was a bit more inherently stable (read some of the 
notes on MacSlash about bit addressing) and the Altivec instructions 
were likely a bit better for high-end number-crunching (I've already 
read multiple worries from scientists who prefer the PowerPC), but for 
the over-all consumer I'd say there will not be much difference.  A 
program might crash twice a year instead of once a year, but it still 
won't affect the OS.


Virii also will not be an issue -- unless you believe some corporate spy 
is very intent on using the alleged HyperThreading exploit to steal your 
password so they can get access to all your iPhotos.


I'm a bit melancholy.  I liked being different.  I like the PowerPC.  
But it is a line not suited for Apple's plans.


I am more worried about the effect on Apple the company rather than any 
problems with new Macs.


Sincerely,
Pacer the Loon
"I had too much caffeine to drink tonight, and now I am on a roll!  
Someone stop me!"



Bill Briggs wrote:

Well, there are some clues if you read enough of the fine print. I too 
(as a poorly paid professor of electrical engineering in a Canadian 
university and an Apple shareholder) would be rather annoyed if Apple 
actually sold x86 Macs. But there is a more interesting possibility.


Back when DEC folded the Alpha project (which was probably the best 
processor design around at the time), all 300 of the engineering staff 
from DEC went to work for Intel. They are currently working on a new 
chip at Intel that will, if the press is correct, be shipping sometime 
in 2007. It will not be an x86 family chip, and will have tossed all 
of the legacy support mechanisms that the x86 family carries. If it's 
something in the same class as the Alpha then it could really be good 
for the Mac.


I dislike x86 architecture too (having written assembler for it I know 
all too well how ugly it is), but the fact is that IBM wasn't willing 
to invest in the future of PowerPC for Apple. I suspect that someone 
at IBM just pissed Steve Jobs off one too many times, and that's the 
end of it. I'm not selling my Apple stock. I'm still going to buy a 
new 15" PowerBook this year, and I'm taking a wait and see attitude 
concerning what's going to happen two years out.


Jobs didn't do this for profit, he did it for long-term viability. If 
IBM had been able to provide the CPU development, he'd have stuck with 
the PowerPC platform.


So we can all wear a black arm band for a week and then get on with 
work. But I'm betting that the chip you see in the Mac in 2007 is not 
an x86 processor, but a new one, and one developed by those 300 folks 
they got from DEC.


- web



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Zoltan Batiz]

Thanks for all the input folks.  I wanted to apologize for my rather 
intense input on this subject.  Did I mention subject?  For some 
reason, someone used this thread for another subject regarding schools 
and their policies.  PLEASE don't forget to change the subject line as 
well.


Anyway, what I meant about the viruses is that I do in fact know that 
this move to Intel is good for Apple.  But, I'm afraid it might be too 
good.  I'm one of those unusual Mac users that LIKES being a part of a 
small community.  I LIKE the fact that Apple has a small market share.  
I enjoy watching PeeCee users getting jealous over Apple's technology, 
only to get it eventually when PC manufacturers try to copy it.  
Everyone keeps saying this is good for Apple, etc.  Yea, sure it's 
good. . .and the bigger the market share, the more we are gonna attract 
hackers.  I know the power of Mac OS X (trying not to sound like Darth 
Vader); it's almost impossible to create an effective system 
debilitating virus TO DATE.  But, the bigger the crowd, the more people 
are going to notice.  I hope everyone can see my point.


I need to formerly apologize to those who use PC's and are members of 
this list.  I work with all types of computers in my business.  I 
customize wireless networks, create systems for people; both PC and 
Mac.  I just had a very bad experience with someone who drove me crazy 
with his PC.  Let's just say he's the one who's stupid. . .and that 
some people should not have a computer AT ALL.  I strive to be patient, 
but for some reason I vented in here. . .my sacred ground with folks 
who not only know as much as I do about Linux, Be OS, Amiga OS, Mac OS, 
Windows and Unix, but even more than ME.  :)


Also, the useful info regarding the Alpha chip is actually exciting.  
Is this true?  Are the former employees from DEC really working for 
Intel?!  I'm throughly aware of the Alpha chip and it had a lot of 
potential.  I could only imagine what those folks, with Intel's budget, 
could create for Apple.  Everyone's going to want a Mac!  (biting 
nails)  I just hope I'm wrong and the market share won't go any higher 
than 30% in the next 10 years.  Oh for those who own Apple stock and 
are cringing at what I just typed. . .I have stock as well.  :)


Keepin' it small. . .(like a secret club, folks!)


Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 12, 2005, at 6:33 AM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:

 I am concerned that "when" Intel based Macs start rolling out in  
'06 they are gonna be sitting ducks just waiting for the Intel- 
versed hacker to start shooting.



Dude, lighten up!

There are no more going to be a flood of Mac viruses any more than  
there are a flood of Linux viruses.


The viruses attack WINDOWS, not the chip. Most of the skriptkiddies  
writing the viruses do it in VISUAL BASIC for ghu's sake!


--
Bruce Johnson
This is the sig that says 'NI!'




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[david]

On Jun 11, 2005, at 9:49 PM, Tim Collier wrote:

I've wondered if any of the people who are chiming on on this topic  
watched the keynote address?
Though Apple is switching to Intel, is it going to be the 586 or  
Pentium family of processors?  Steve Jobs never said anything about  
that.for all we know it could be a whole different processor.
These new Intel based Macs are still going to be running OS X.  Do  
you think Apple would use Windows?
To my experience, Apple products have always been TOP QUALITY.  I  
doubt that anything with their brand name on it will be anything  
less that what they previously made.
Being an eternal optimist, I'm certain Apple will continue to make  
quality computers that 'just work' as they always have.  I will  
continue to be an Apple customer for ALL of my future computer  
needs.  I do not see that changing.


In the keynote Jobs specifically mentioned that Intel provided the  
best performance per watt. He didn't talk about speed, he didn't talk  
about cost. He specifically mentioned electrical use. That strongly  
suggests that the first Macs with Intel chips will be using the Intel  
Mobility series. The university recently gave me a Dull notebook with  
this chip and I regretfully report that performs better than my  
alBook and its battery life is profoundly superior. Note: Intel is  
expected to ship a dual core mobility chip sometime 1st quarter 2006.  
Imagine that!


david


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Aaron Willems]

Who cares if PowerPC is slower than Intel. Business Cares. 
You can't stay in business if the compitiation is ahead of 
you. No matter how you feel this is the best move Apple 
could make. There's nothing you can do about it, so it 
would be best to move on. Besides your still going to be 
able to purchase a PowerPC Mac for 2 more years. Apple's 
going to have to support the PowerPC platform for years to 
come. So you can be one of those die-hards and wait till 
the bitter end to switch.


Hope you Feel Better.

Aaron

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 06:33:57 -0700
 Zoltan Batiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ok, I've watched the keynote address, read all the 
articles.  I still think Jobs is full of it.  I can't 
believe that he's decided to switch to Intel.  This has 
me really nervous.  Intel processors, despite the crappy 
OS that Microsnot tries to make for it, are very unstable 
in the virus sense.  I am concerned that "when" Intel 
based Macs start rolling out in '06 they are gonna be 
sitting ducks just waiting for the Intel-versed hacker to 
start shooting.  I AM NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ANY OF YOU 
WHO ARE EXCITED BY THIS.  THIS IS THE MOST DISTURBING 
THING I'VE HEARD SINCE THE FALL OF AMIGA.  I feel like 
I'm being let down in the computer industry once again. 
This move will eventually make all PowerPC Macs 
obsolete, just like the 68000 Mac's. . .so much for 
worrying about the G3's life; heck now the G5 is going to 
be phased out.  I am so tired of everyone trying to get 
somewhere in such a rush.  WHO CARES IF POWERPC IS SLOWER 
THAN CRAPTEL!!  I don't!  And millions 
of other Mac users don't!  Most PeeCee users are too 
stupid for the Mac community ANYWAY.  I need to stop now. 
. .I'm so pissed I can barely type.  This is what happens 
when I go up to Arrowhead for a few months on vacation. . 
.and come back to this.  I have one phrase for Jobs: 
"Greedy Bastard".



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[david]

On Jun 12, 2005, at 9:33 AM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:

Ok, I've watched the keynote address, read all the articles.  I  
still think Jobs is full of it.  I can't believe that he's decided  
to switch to Intel.  This has me really nervous.  Intel processors,  
despite the crappy OS that Microsnot tries to make for it, are very  
unstable in the virus sense.  I am concerned that "when" Intel  
based Macs start rolling out in '06 they are gonna be sitting ducks  
just waiting for the Intel-versed hacker to start shooting.  I AM  
NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ANY OF YOU WHO ARE EXCITED BY THIS.  THIS IS  
THE MOST DISTURBING THING I'VE HEARD SINCE THE FALL OF AMIGA.  I  
feel like I'm being let down in the computer industry once again.   
This move will eventually make all PowerPC Macs obsolete, just like  
the 68000 Mac's. . .so much for worrying about the G3's life; heck  
now the G5 is going to be phased out.  I am so tired of everyone  
trying to get somewhere in such a rush.  WHO CARES IF POWERPC IS  
SLOWER THAN CRAPTEL!!  I don't!  And millions of other Mac users  
don't!  Most PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac community  
ANYWAY.  I need to stop now. . .I'm so pissed I can barely type.   
This is what happens when I go up to Arrowhead for a few months on  
vacation. . .and come back to this.  I have one phrase for Jobs:   
"Greedy Bastard".


Zoltan - the CPU has nothing to do with viruses. It is software and  
software only. Wintel are open to viruses, adware, and malware due to  
the poor security of Microsoft's software and nothing else. Consider:  
the most secure OS in the world is *nix and more UNIX and Linux  
servers are run on Intel processors than any other. There are lots of  
reasons to be concerned about the switch to Intel but your unreasoned  
fear of viruses is not one of them.


Second, you are quite correct that the switch to Intel will make  
PowerPC based computers obsolete. But you must understand that Jobs  
was between a rock and a hard place. Sticking with the PowerPC line  
is no longer an option. IBM is no longer interested in advancing the  
G5 line. Motorola - Freescale now - is interested only in creating  
PowerPC chips used as embedded appliances.


No matter what Jobs did, we were looking at the end of the PowerPC  
based Mac. Had Jobs not jumped to Intel his only other choice was the  
so called Cell being used by Sony and Microsoft in their game  
consoles. While based on PowerPC technology, the Cell is also  
significantly different from the PowerPC chips we know today.  
Further, while IBM and Sony are clearly interested in expanding the  
usage of Cell processors, there is no roadmap for LOW WATTAGE Cells  
that I know of. Given that Apple's best selling computers are  
notebooks, this is not a good thing.


Finally, you must understand that computers are by their very nature  
quickly made obsolete regardless of who provides the processor. But  
being made obsolete doesn't mean being made unusable. Even if  
everyone stopped making software for PowerPC based computers today  
I'd be able to use my PowerBook for another 2-3 years and my desktop  
another 3-4 years. My software is all up to date and will remain  
serviceable even if I can never upgrade it again. Am I sanguine about  
that? No! But I don't expect PowerPC support to dry up all that  
quickly either. Given the relative ease of creating a Universal  
Binary application, the cost of creating software for both Intel and  
PowerPC computers will not be that onerous for a wide range of  
applications. I don't expect games to be one of them though.


So chill out. The die has been cast.

david


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[sacear3]

The processor is *NOT* the reason for viruses, the OS is. How many 
viruses are written to attack a processor? None that I know. How many 
viruses attack and utilize the OS? All that I know!
How many Linux *systems* with Intel processors "are very unstable in 
the virus sense?" That's right, none. The *system* is as stable as the 
operator. The computer operator controls whether the OS is vulnerable 
or "unstable," the exact same is true of OS X!


I would prefer PPC processors, if they could meet their potential. On 
paper, PPC smokes anything Intel currently has, yet currently in real 
world systems with currently manufactured CPUs, Intel CPUs are MORE 
stable, than PPC CPUs (unless you use Windows as the OS).


IBM has ceased upgrading and production of the *G5* version of their 
Power chip. PPC will still be used for about two years. So what do you 
suggest Apple does? Just shut their doors and call it quits? Yes, there 
are other options, but they don't make sense for Apple. Intel is the 
best option and the best decision to make at this time.



Ok, I've watched the keynote address, read all the articles.  I still
think Jobs is full of it.  I can't believe that he's decided to switch
to Intel.  This has me really nervous.  Intel processors, despite the
crappy OS that Microsnot tries to make for it, are very unstable in the
virus sense.  I am concerned that "when" Intel based Macs start rolling
out in '06 they are gonna be sitting ducks just waiting for the
Intel-versed hacker to start shooting.




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Bill Briggs]

Well, there are some clues if you read enough of the fine print. I 
too (as a poorly paid professor of electrical engineering in a 
Canadian university and an Apple shareholder) would be rather annoyed 
if Apple actually sold x86 Macs. But there is a more interesting 
possibility.


Back when DEC folded the Alpha project (which was probably the best 
processor design around at the time), all 300 of the engineering 
staff from DEC went to work for Intel. They are currently working on 
a new chip at Intel that will, if the press is correct, be shipping 
sometime in 2007. It will not be an x86 family chip, and will have 
tossed all of the legacy support mechanisms that the x86 family 
carries. If it's something in the same class as the Alpha then it 
could really be good for the Mac.


I dislike x86 architecture too (having written assembler for it I 
know all too well how ugly it is), but the fact is that IBM wasn't 
willing to invest in the future of PowerPC for Apple. I suspect that 
someone at IBM just pissed Steve Jobs off one too many times, and 
that's the end of it. I'm not selling my Apple stock. I'm still going 
to buy a new 15" PowerBook this year, and I'm taking a wait and see 
attitude concerning what's going to happen two years out.


Jobs didn't do this for profit, he did it for long-term viability. If 
IBM had been able to provide the CPU development, he'd have stuck 
with the PowerPC platform.


So we can all wear a black arm band for a week and then get on with 
work. But I'm betting that the chip you see in the Mac in 2007 is not 
an x86 processor, but a new one, and one developed by those 300 folks 
they got from DEC.


- web


At 10:53 AM -0500 6/12/05, Brian wrote:

Dude, chill
Virus vulnerability is an OS problem, not a chip problem.
Second, no one has said, so far as I know, that the intel chips to 
be used will be x86 chips, just that they will be intel.  I forget 
who pointed that out, but it was a very good point.
If you don't care about the newest fastest computer than stick with 
your lowend mac.  It will  still be supported for years.  As far as 
the comment about "PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac community 
ANYWAY," that's totally uncalled for.  No need to be insulting the 
masses for no reason.  Rash statements like that are one reason that 
PC users have given me for not liking the mac.  They don't like 
"elitest mac users."
It's happening, and it needs to happen.  You are right, it's a 
business/politics thing and not so much a development

thing, but I don't think it's a greed thing either.
In any event, it's all academic anyway.  It's happening, you can't 
stop it.  Best to just roll with it.

Brian

On Jun 12, 2005, at 8:33 AM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:

Ok, I've watched the keynote address, read all the articles.  I 
still think Jobs is full of it.  I can't believe that he's decided 
to switch to Intel.  This has me really nervous.  Intel processors, 
despite the crappy OS that Microsnot tries to make for it, are very 
unstable in the virus sense.  I am concerned that "when" Intel 
based Macs start rolling out in '06 they are gonna be sitting ducks 
just waiting for the Intel-versed hacker to start shooting.  I AM 
NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ANY OF YOU WHO ARE EXCITED BY THIS.  THIS IS 
THE MOST DISTURBING THING I'VE HEARD SINCE THE FALL OF AMIGA.  I 
feel like I'm being let down in the computer industry once again.  
This move will eventually make all PowerPC Macs obsolete, just like 
the 68000 Mac's. . .so much for worrying about the G3's life; heck 
now the G5 is going to be phased out.  I am so tired of everyone 
trying to get somewhere in such a rush.  WHO CARES IF POWERPC IS 
SLOWER THAN CRAPTEL!!  I don't!  And millions of other Mac users 
don't!  Most PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac community 
ANYWAY.  I need to stop now. . .I'm so pissed I can barely type.  
This is what happens when I go up to Arrowhead for a few months on 
vacation. . .and come back to this.  I have one phrase for Jobs:  
"Greedy Bastard".



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Brian]

Dude, chill
Virus vulnerability is an OS problem, not a chip problem.
Second, no one has said, so far as I know, that the intel chips to be  
used will be x86 chips, just that they will be intel.  I forget who  
pointed that out, but it was a very good point.
If you don't care about the newest fastest computer than stick with  
your lowend mac.  It will  still be supported for years.  As far as  
the comment about "PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac community  
ANYWAY," that's totally uncalled for.  No need to be insulting the  
masses for no reason.  Rash statements like that are one reason that  
PC users have given me for not liking the mac.  They don't like  
"elitest mac users."
It's happening, and it needs to happen.  You are right, it's a  
business/politics thing and not so much a development

thing, but I don't think it's a greed thing either.
In any event, it's all academic anyway.  It's happening, you can't  
stop it.  Best to just roll with it.

Brian

On Jun 12, 2005, at 8:33 AM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:

Ok, I've watched the keynote address, read all the articles.  I  
still think Jobs is full of it.  I can't believe that he's decided  
to switch to Intel.  This has me really nervous.  Intel processors,  
despite the crappy OS that Microsnot tries to make for it, are very  
unstable in the virus sense.  I am concerned that "when" Intel  
based Macs start rolling out in '06 they are gonna be sitting ducks  
just waiting for the Intel-versed hacker to start shooting.  I AM  
NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ANY OF YOU WHO ARE EXCITED BY THIS.  THIS IS  
THE MOST DISTURBING THING I'VE HEARD SINCE THE FALL OF AMIGA.  I  
feel like I'm being let down in the computer industry once again.   
This move will eventually make all PowerPC Macs obsolete, just like  
the 68000 Mac's. . .so much for worrying about the G3's life; heck  
now the G5 is going to be phased out.  I am so tired of everyone  
trying to get somewhere in such a rush.  WHO CARES IF POWERPC IS  
SLOWER THAN CRAPTEL!!  I don't!  And millions of other Mac users  
don't!  Most PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac community  
ANYWAY.  I need to stop now. . .I'm so pissed I can barely type.   
This is what happens when I go up to Arrowhead for a few months on  
vacation. . .and come back to this.  I have one phrase for Jobs:   
"Greedy Bastard".



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Zoltan Batiz]

Ok, I've watched the keynote address, read all the articles.  I still 
think Jobs is full of it.  I can't believe that he's decided to switch 
to Intel.  This has me really nervous.  Intel processors, despite the 
crappy OS that Microsnot tries to make for it, are very unstable in the 
virus sense.  I am concerned that "when" Intel based Macs start rolling 
out in '06 they are gonna be sitting ducks just waiting for the 
Intel-versed hacker to start shooting.  I AM NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ANY 
OF YOU WHO ARE EXCITED BY THIS.  THIS IS THE MOST DISTURBING THING I'VE 
HEARD SINCE THE FALL OF AMIGA.  I feel like I'm being let down in the 
computer industry once again.  This move will eventually make all 
PowerPC Macs obsolete, just like the 68000 Mac's. . .so much for 
worrying about the G3's life; heck now the G5 is going to be phased 
out.  I am so tired of everyone trying to get somewhere in such a rush. 
 WHO CARES IF POWERPC IS SLOWER THAN CRAPTEL!!  I don't!  And millions 
of other Mac users don't!  Most PeeCee users are too stupid for the Mac 
community ANYWAY.  I need to stop now. . .I'm so pissed I can barely 
type.  This is what happens when I go up to Arrowhead for a few months 
on vacation. . .and come back to this.  I have one phrase for Jobs:  
"Greedy Bastard".



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Timothy Luoma]

On Jun 11, 2005, at 8:06 PM, Nancy Lawrence wrote:

Meanwhile, there is *one* guy on the whole of campus that I can go  
to if I have trouble with my Apple product


That'll probably be plenty.


plus the only discount I get is the one Apple itself provides me.


You ought to be getting the same edu. discount regardless of how many  
Apple users there are well, I mean, if there were a whole lot of  
them you might get some sort of volume discount.  But otherwise, the  
discount you get for education is pretty good... not quite as good as  
the employee discount (from what I hear) but close in some situations.


TjL



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Tim Collier]

I've wondered if any of the people who are chiming on on this topic  
watched the keynote address?
Though Apple is switching to Intel, is it going to be the 586 or  
Pentium family of processors?  Steve Jobs never said anything about  
that.for all we know it could be a whole different processor.
These new Intel based Macs are still going to be running OS X.  Do  
you think Apple would use Windows?
To my experience, Apple products have always been TOP QUALITY.  I  
doubt that anything with their brand name on it will be anything less  
that what they previously made.
Being an eternal optimist, I'm certain Apple will continue to make  
quality computers that 'just work' as they always have.  I will  
continue to be an Apple customer for ALL of my future computer  
needs.  I do not see that changing.


Tim
On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:14 PM, Tom Ethen wrote:


My daughter was forced to purchase on of those $799 PC laptops for her
college by the college and it is a piece of crap compared to my  
Powerbook.
It requires an extra card for almost everything bringing the $799  
price up
with each purchase and it is HIGH MAINTINANCE to say the least,  
with all of
its virus and spyware issues. Then comes its low reliability  
compared to my

Powerbook or even my iBook-What a piece of junk!

It is always difficult to tell the uninformed anything and that is  
what the

PC world is.

Tom

it's hard to tell someone that


an iBook running at 1.33 GHz for $1199 is better than a
Dell Notebook running at 2 GHz or faster for $799 is
better. Do the math, Apple made the right move.




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Brian]

You bring up an excellent point- college professors, while some can  
be quite fascist-like in their classrooms, are not particularly paid  
well.  Generally speaking, a person with a PHD will do better in the  
open market than in a school.
What's more, they do not make policy.  Odds are they receive no  
benefit from the schools implementing such policies that step on the  
rights and choices of the students.

Brian

On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:06 PM, Nancy Lawrence wrote:

Actually, as I'm gearing up to being one of those potentially  
highly paid Professors in the next year or so, I can attest first- 
hand to the fact that money from the forced sale of IBM Thinkpads  
at my school does not in any way see the light of day in anyone in  
my department's paycheck.  I would look first to the Chancellor,  
then the Provosts and Vice Provosts, then the Deans, and even  
various lower-level administrators for excessive salaries due to  
fascist computer policies.  Since it's a publicly funded university  
you can check it out yourself--the exact amount of everyone's  
salaries is publicly available.


Meanwhile, there is *one* guy on the whole of campus that I can go  
to if I have trouble with my Apple product, plus the only discount  
I get is the one Apple itself provides me.


Nancy

On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:26 PM, Tom Ethen wrote:


Hey, they get them by the truckload for almost nothing and then  
force the
students to purchase them for full retail-I should say rent them  
for the
small fee of $500 each semester! Just another way for our Colleges  
to make
some extra cash, so their Professors won't have to teach more than  
two hours

a day.

If you  are a lowly Art Student, you then get an iBook for the  
same price

and if you don't like it, transfer to another school.

Tom

On 6/11/05 6:14 PM, "Brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




I find it interesting how fascist our higher education system is
becoming.
Brian





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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Nancy Lawrence]

Actually, as I'm gearing up to being one of those potentially highly  
paid Professors in the next year or so, I can attest first-hand to  
the fact that money from the forced sale of IBM Thinkpads at my  
school does not in any way see the light of day in anyone in my  
department's paycheck.  I would look first to the Chancellor, then  
the Provosts and Vice Provosts, then the Deans, and even various  
lower-level administrators for excessive salaries due to fascist  
computer policies.  Since it's a publicly funded university you can  
check it out yourself--the exact amount of everyone's salaries is  
publicly available.


Meanwhile, there is *one* guy on the whole of campus that I can go to  
if I have trouble with my Apple product, plus the only discount I get  
is the one Apple itself provides me.


Nancy

On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:26 PM, Tom Ethen wrote:

Hey, they get them by the truckload for almost nothing and then  
force the
students to purchase them for full retail-I should say rent them  
for the
small fee of $500 each semester! Just another way for our Colleges  
to make
some extra cash, so their Professors won't have to teach more than  
two hours

a day.

If you  are a lowly Art Student, you then get an iBook for the same  
price

and if you don't like it, transfer to another school.

Tom

On 6/11/05 6:14 PM, "Brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I find it interesting how fascist our higher education system is
becoming.
Brian




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[sacear3]

Apple is indeed going to "start" using Intel processors sometime in 
2006.
Check Apple's home page. Jobs made that announcement at the WWDC 
Keynote last Monday.


However, there was no word about x86 architecture. Jobs only ever said 
(purposefully?) Intel processors, conspicuously not mentioning x86.


Apple will continue to use PowerPC in the "Pro" model Macs into 2007 
and possibly beyond, depending on IBM. Apple will be making computers 
based on CPUs from Freescale, IBM, as well as Intel starting in 2006.


Unfortunately, IBM has abandoned PowerPC development for the purposes 
of Apple's computers. There is no way a current PPC 970 (G5) will work 
in a PowerBook, they are actually too hot for the current Power Mac, 
and IBM has refused to develop something cooler for Apple. Freescale is 
still working with the "G4" chip, yet that really is not a long-term 
option for Apple. Apple does not want to be left hanging dead on the 
vine without a CPU to make computers with.


I think this move has been in the works for quite some time. OS X has 
had an Intel version since day one, for five years. Remember, OS X is 
derived from NeXTStep, which was processor independent. Intel's new CEO 
is very "pro-Mac" and always compliments Apple, Macintosh, and Jobs in 
his speeches. Seems he has been courting Apple and Jobs for awhile. 
Intel does have a very good, and more importantly long-term, "roadmap" 
for chip development, especially for Macs mini, iMacs, iBooks, and 
PowerBooks.


This will turn out to be very good for Apple and OS X come 2007. I 
think Intel has something new that may be used exclusively at first in 
Apple machines. Intel machines running OS X are already available to 
developers to start porting software. The process is actually much 
easier than the 68k -> PPC and OS 9 -> OS X transitions. This will be 
very good for Apple once the bumps are smoothed out.


Best regards,
Scott


Hello all,


I have heard this now from more than one source.  I was under the
impression that the rumor that Apple was going to eventually leave the
PowerPC architecture altogether was just a rumor.  Please tell me this
isn't true.  While this may not bother some Mac users, HALF of the
reason I even use a Mac is due to the superior PowerPC architecture.
Thanks for any input,


Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Brian]

As I said: Fascist.
Brian

On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:41 PM, themacuser wrote:

As well as this, some make the students give them back once they  
have bought them when they graduate...


Some even go as far as banning non-approved laptops (often anything  
except theirs) for fear of "security issues and viruses"...

On 12/06/2005, at 8:54 AM, Brian wrote:


Yes, except this type of policy seems to be spreading like  
wildfire.  Perhaps they could make a few $$ in a way that doesn't  
force students into paying for cheap, worthless gear?

Brian

On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Tom Ethen wrote:



Hey, they get them by the truckload for almost nothing and then  
force the
students to purchase them for full retail-I should say rent them  
for the
small fee of $500 each semester! Just another way for our  
Colleges to make
some extra cash, so their Professors won't have to teach more  
than two hours

a day.

If you  are a lowly Art Student, you then get an iBook for the  
same price

and if you don't like it, transfer to another school.

Tom

On 6/11/05 6:14 PM, "Brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:





I find it interesting how fascist our higher education system is
becoming.
Brian





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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[themacuser]

As well as this, some make the students give them back once they have  
bought them when they graduate...


Some even go as far as banning non-approved laptops (often anything  
except theirs) for fear of "security issues and viruses"...

On 12/06/2005, at 8:54 AM, Brian wrote:

Yes, except this type of policy seems to be spreading like  
wildfire.  Perhaps they could make a few $$ in a way that doesn't  
force students into paying for cheap, worthless gear?

Brian

On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Tom Ethen wrote:


Hey, they get them by the truckload for almost nothing and then  
force the
students to purchase them for full retail-I should say rent them  
for the
small fee of $500 each semester! Just another way for our Colleges  
to make
some extra cash, so their Professors won't have to teach more than  
two hours

a day.

If you  are a lowly Art Student, you then get an iBook for the  
same price

and if you don't like it, transfer to another school.

Tom

On 6/11/05 6:14 PM, "Brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




I find it interesting how fascist our higher education system is
becoming.
Brian




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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Brian]

Yes, except this type of policy seems to be spreading like wildfire.   
Perhaps they could make a few $$ in a way that doesn't force students  
into paying for cheap, worthless gear?

Brian

On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Tom Ethen wrote:

Hey, they get them by the truckload for almost nothing and then  
force the
students to purchase them for full retail-I should say rent them  
for the
small fee of $500 each semester! Just another way for our Colleges  
to make
some extra cash, so their Professors won't have to teach more than  
two hours

a day.

If you  are a lowly Art Student, you then get an iBook for the same  
price

and if you don't like it, transfer to another school.

Tom

On 6/11/05 6:14 PM, "Brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I find it interesting how fascist our higher education system is
becoming.
Brian



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Tom Ethen]

Hey, they get them by the truckload for almost nothing and then force the
students to purchase them for full retail-I should say rent them for the
small fee of $500 each semester! Just another way for our Colleges to make
some extra cash, so their Professors won't have to teach more than two hours
a day.

If you  are a lowly Art Student, you then get an iBook for the same price
and if you don't like it, transfer to another school.

Tom

On 6/11/05 6:14 PM, "Brian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I find it interesting how fascist our higher education system is
> becoming.
> Brian


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Brian]

I find it interesting how fascist our higher education system is  
becoming.

Brian

On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:14 PM, Tom Ethen wrote:


My daughter was forced to purchase on of those $799 PC laptops for her
college by the college and it is a piece of crap compared to my  
Powerbook.
It requires an extra card for almost everything bringing the $799  
price up
with each purchase and it is HIGH MAINTINANCE to say the least,  
with all of
its virus and spyware issues. Then comes its low reliability  
compared to my

Powerbook or even my iBook-What a piece of junk!

It is always difficult to tell the uninformed anything and that is  
what the

PC world is.

Tom

it's hard to tell someone that


an iBook running at 1.33 GHz for $1199 is better than a
Dell Notebook running at 2 GHz or faster for $799 is
better. Do the math, Apple made the right move.



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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Tom Ethen]

My daughter was forced to purchase on of those $799 PC laptops for her
college by the college and it is a piece of crap compared to my Powerbook.
It requires an extra card for almost everything bringing the $799 price up
with each purchase and it is HIGH MAINTINANCE to say the least, with all of
its virus and spyware issues. Then comes its low reliability compared to my
Powerbook or even my iBook-What a piece of junk!

It is always difficult to tell the uninformed anything and that is what the
PC world is.

Tom

it's hard to tell someone that
> an iBook running at 1.33 GHz for $1199 is better than a
> Dell Notebook running at 2 GHz or faster for $799 is
> better. Do the math, Apple made the right move.


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Aaron Willems]

No disrespect intended, but where have you been all week. 
This is one of the biggest stories on the internet this 
week. Apple is moving to Intel. See news stories and 
Steve's speech at the WWDC  It's a great move on Apple's 
part. It will allow Apple to effectively complete against 
Dell and other PC venders on price. It may not be the 
world's best processor, but it's hard to tell someone that 
an iBook running at 1.33 GHz for $1199 is better than a 
Dell Notebook running at 2 GHz or faster for $799 is 
better. Do the math, Apple made the right move.


Aaron Willems

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 11:20:07 -0700
 Zoltan Batiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hello all,


I have heard this now from more than one source.  I was 
under the impression that the rumor that Apple was going 
to eventually leave the PowerPC architecture altogether 
was just a rumor.  Please tell me this isn't true.  While 
this may not bother some Mac users, HALF of the reason I 
even use a Mac is due to the superior PowerPC 
architecture.  Thanks for any input,



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


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Re: Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Brian]

This is no longer a rumor, if you don't believe it check out Apple's  
web site and look under their news articles.  You can also check out  
the keynote speech for the WWDC and hear Steve Jobs say it himself.   
The iMac list and G-list have gone nuts with this topic, with tens to  
hundreds of posts on it a day.
Opinions vary on this, but the fact remains, it's happening, and you  
can't stop it.  I'm sorry to make this so blunt, but I figured you  
wanted a straight answer without beating around the bush.  hope I  
didn't cause any offense.

Brian

On Jun 11, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Zoltan Batiz wrote:


Hello all,


I have heard this now from more than one source.  I was under the  
impression that the rumor that Apple was going to eventually leave  
the PowerPC architecture altogether was just a rumor.  Please tell  
me this isn't true.  While this may not bother some Mac users, HALF  
of the reason I even use a Mac is due to the superior PowerPC  
architecture.  Thanks for any input,



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


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Is Apple really moving to x86 architechture?!

[Zoltan Batiz]

Hello all,


I have heard this now from more than one source.  I was under the 
impression that the rumor that Apple was going to eventually leave the 
PowerPC architecture altogether was just a rumor.  Please tell me this 
isn't true.  While this may not bother some Mac users, HALF of the 
reason I even use a Mac is due to the superior PowerPC architecture.  
Thanks for any input,



Zoltan
THE BLUETOOTH (and WiFi) MASTER


--
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